Manitoba Hansard — 4 March 1977 (Sitting 12B, 30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-12b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 FOURTH SESSION- THIRTIETH LEGISLATURE of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 26 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Peter Fox Speaker Vol. XXIV No. 128 2:30 p.m., Friday, March 4, 1977 Printed by P.N. Crosbie- Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

TIME: 2:30 p.m. THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOBA Friday, March 4, 1977 SUPPLY - DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN: Before we proceed this afternoon I'd like to draw the attention ofthe honourable members to the gal lery. On my left we have 38 students, Grade 5 standing of the Precious Blood School under the direction of Mrs. Bouchard. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. On my right we have 22 students Grade 12 standing under the direction of Mr. Delaquis.

This school is the Precious Blood School, also located in the constituency of the Minister of Health and Social Development. On behalf of all the honourable members I bid you welcome here this afternoon. I refer honourable members to page 20 of their Estimates Book, Resolution 49(a). The Honourable Member for Aiel. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Chairman, there was some brief discussion this morning with regard to the evaluation of perfo rmance by the students in the public school system and the Minister made some reference in reply to the question by the Member for Brandon West that he had heard some sort of statement on the media with regard to an evaluation prog ram . Mr.

Chairman, having glanced very briefly at the paper at lunch time, and I don't have a copy of the report here, I gather that the Minister has in advance of explaining this to the Legislature given an interview, by his own com ment sometime after ten o'clock last night, indicating his intentions to do so. Now, as a casual observer, Mr. Chairman, I would at a gla nce in reading the

article read from that that what was being instituted was a reinstitution of exam inations of the performance of the students which of course is parallel to what we had at one time in the Province of Manitoba which was better known as the departmental exams. Mr.

Chairman, I think what appears to be coming out of this - 1 don't knowthat that is the impression that was intended to be left by the Minister, that he intended itto be made public that there was going to be a compulsory examination system by the department of education - but that's the impl ication that would come out to the casual reader of this. l would gather from his comments in this House that that is not the case , that in fact what is being looked at is some sort of trial project ofthis nature and I have to ask the Minister to attempt to be more definitive on this.

Is it the goal of his department to look at the feasibil ity of reinstituting a type of departme ntal exam ination? Is that what his intent is? And if that is not the intent what is the objective of spending money on this trial program of evaluation? I think this House has the right to an explanation by the Minister and to tell the people of Manitoba just what their directions are in this field. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. TURN BULL: Mr. Speaker - Mr. Chairman, did I call you Mr. Speaker again because it seems to me during the course of the day I've called you Mr. Speaker and Mr.

Minister and a number of other things that you may not have heard and I hope that if I don't call you Mr. Chairman that you will remind me that I should be calling you Mr. Chairman not Mr. Speaker or Mr. Minister or what have you. MR. CHAIRMAN: I take no offence. I've been called a lot of things. MR. TURNBU LL: Good, I'm glad to know that you're a broad minded and tolerant Chairman. That's good to hear .. The Member of the Conservative Party wants to know what the purposes of this parti cular program are. The purposes are two-fold .

First of all, to enable the department over time to achieve an information level on a standard test basis so that the public-at-large and departmental officials and school division officials will know how children are pe rforming in the schools. In other words, this would give the department an information base of academic performance in school. Secondly, the program that is now being started is one which I expect would involve teachers in the design or in the selection of the testing instruments.

I think that that is useful because in involving the teachers in that way will make them more knowledgeable of the value of techniques. lt will also enable the teachers to use those techniques in teaching; therefore, I conclude that the second purpose is to enable this evaluative program to give the teachers what we could call another teaching tool to improve their efficiency in teaching in the classroom.

The reason for this second purpose is based on research that has been done over a number of years; that research has been replicated; that research indicates that in a learning experience if a child is taught something, tested on it and given the results very quickly and then whatever remedial work is necessary is undertaken, the learning of the child is enhanced . Therefore, Sir, we have these two purposes for this program. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Chairman, then what the Minister is saying, if I'm interpreting or hearing him correctly , is that this is not an examination process, it's some sort of a random testing program random samp ling - that will be carried out throughout the province that will in no way be tied to a categorization of the student as to a pass or fail type of a situation but simply a learning level type of a random sampling. 361

Friday, March 4, 1977 MR. tUANBULL: Mr. Chairman, I did say that fort he purposes of the Department, the selection of the students that would be tested in this way would be done on a statistically reliable sample. I also indicated that there are a number of . methods that can be used to determine that the sample will make up a good composition of students that are a good reflection of the total population. None of this, in my mind anyway, can be done without consultation with people in education and without the co-operation of school divisions. This is not a system to set up the old departmental examinations.

As the Member for Riel knows, we used to have departmentals and I think five subjects in Grade 9; five or so subjects in Grade 11 and five or so subjects in Grade 12 . Every student coming out ofthose grades had to write those departmentals. What I am suggesting here is not a return to that system but merely in the first year anyway, which is what we're talking about here, a program which will enable the department to establish a base-line of information as how students are doing.

We have that information already coming in from school divisions with Skills, the regard to the Canadian Tested Basic Metropolitan Achievement Tests and other such tests. What I am proposing would be similar to that only ad ministered on a broader base through the province. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Chairman, the Minister has indicated that they're using the Metropolitan Achievement Tests and other tests that are ancient tests that have been used for years and years in the school system to determine the I.O.

Ievel or whatever other terminology might be used for testing the intellectual level and skills learning level of the students in the school system. He's now saying that these are going to be an extension of that type of testing that gives a level of learning type of an indicator to the Department of Education but that there is no relationship between this program that he is instituting and the ultimate objective of providing for it being an examination.

In other words, a grad ing system of the student to determine whether or not he goes on to the next grade or out of one system into another system and on to post secondary. MR. TURN BULL: I think that the Member for Riel fairly well reflects what the intent is. lt is, though, a program that will be zeroed in on academ ic achievement firstly, but it will not be a program that will determine whether a child passes or fails.

This program, the one we're talking about here, could, through the teacher's use of them at the teacher's level in the classroom, be incorporated as one of many many elements that teachers use in evaluating students but in no case would this particular program be used as the pass-fail indicator for a child. That is not the intent. MR. CRAIK: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I thank the Minister for elaborating on this; I'm afraid that as a lay-person in reading the information that came out in today's paper, I probably would have concluded that we were headed back into a departmental examination type of program and I understand now that I would have been wrong if I had come to that conclusion from read ing the reports. Mr.

Chairman, I want to direct another question to the Minister under this heading and that is to ask whether any research and development has been put in to try and equalize the opportunities for people, children coming out of some of the particularly rural school divisions that are going on into post-secondary education. lt has always been a problem in Manitoba in that gradua tes from principally the high school system, coming out of their Grade 12 course, were never in their own environment exposed to the cross-section of adult people who come from the many different walks of life that the children coming out of the high school system in urban areas like Winnipeg are exposed to.

There has always been a particularly difficult decision having to be made by the high school graduate from the rural school as opposed to the urban school as to what his future vocation is going to be. Mr. Chairman, this has been spoken about before in this House periodically over the years and the information I received is that the problem is still a very great one, particularly in the rural school divisions.

Now, it might fall into the general category of counselling. l'm not sure that the sort of traditional counselling techniques have overcome the problem of really exposing the children from some school divisions to the cross-sections of the different vocations and opportunities that might be available to them. I wonder if the Minister could perhaps indicate whether any more work is going to be done in this connection. Mr.

Chairman, we are to some extent at the position where the school divisions across the province have over a period of years upgraded their physical facilities; they have upgraded their teaching staff; they have the schools; they have the teachers; they don't have quite the opportunity in many of the rural areas that they have in the urban areas because in many cases the smal ler school populations don't get the oppor tunity to have the cross-section of curriculum offered to them.

Basically, those things have improved but the one problem that still seems to exist, particularly again in the rural areas, is that they still have much more difficulty in making the decision for transition out of the high school system and on into their other vocations, whether it is post-secondary vocation at the Red River Community College or whether it's at the University or whether it's in one of the trades or whether it's into the labour force or whatever it may be.

I wonder if the Minister could cast some light on this as to whether there is any intent to move into this area and try to fill that void that's there. MR. TURNBULl: Mr. Chairman, it is always difficult for a Minister to deal with questions of a general nature in order of the Estimates as they appear. But with your indulgence, I will try to answer 362

Friday, March 4, 1977 this question although I will be referring to some other items in the Estimates Book. There has, of course, always been a problem with providing, in isolated or rural areas, an education of a variety that is available in a large metropolitan area. Those are just the facts of the situa tion. The areas are different; the kinds of amenities that are avai lable in an urban setting simply are not available in other places.

This became very clear to me some months ago, when I visited the schools in Frontier School Division, and one place in particular that I dropped into, I don't know if the former Minister of Education, the member who was just spea king, has been there or not but it was a place called Big Black River, which is half-way between Berens River and Norway House. Big Black River is a place of a real one-room school - I wish the Member for Swan River were here to hear this - a one-room school in which there were 15 children with a teacherage attached right on to the classroom.

You walked through a door in the classroom and you were in the teacher's livingroom. Obviously in a setting such as that you cannot provide, you simply can't provide, the choice of courses, the different variety of experiences that would come from teachers of some number, who themselves had different backgrounds and experiences in education. However, there has been an attempt to bring about, to try to bring about a lessening in the different degree of choice, which I think is what the member was alluding to, of choice of educational program between an urban setting and a remote or rural setting.

The main purpose, this year, of the department has been one of increasing the equalization grant, which I mentioned earlier. They are going up by 80 percent. That will at least give some of these divisions with the small schools greater financial resources to develop resource centres and libraries, etc., that will be of use in providing more enrichment in the rural areas. In addition to that, I think it is important to keep in mind that there has been some change in the composition or the background of people that are going to the Faculty of Education.

In years gone by, with people that the Member for Riel and I know, gradua tes of the University or people who went to Normal School did, in fact, come from the rural areas. That has changed today. Many of the people who go into teaching today come from metropolitan areas. One of the programs that I have introduced, therefore, which will presumably bring people with a broader range of experience and perhaps education into the rural areas is described later on in my estimates. lt is a program for the in-service training of teachers in the field , in the rural areas.

There is also a program for what is called the induction of new teachers. In other words, there are two programs now in the Estimates that will enable people in teacher training or just entering teaching after teacher training to go into these rural areas. I am assuming that these new people will in fact have the kind of diverse experience that the Member for Riel is speaking about. That, coupled with the additional financial resources that we are making available for small schools, I hope, will do something to bring about a greater choice of course and opportunity for people in rural areas.

There are other programs here as well, of course, specifically designed for small schools, that will be introduced. I think, though, that one of the main problems that does exist is really based on the population distribution of the people in Manitoba. You have very small rural areas, and it is extremely difficult to provide in those areas schools which are large enough to bring together the kind of diversity that the Member for Riel is advocating.

And I recognize that it was the government of which he was part, but perhaps before he was elected, who did in fact bring about unitary school divisions in this province, thus enabling larger schools to be built and thus enabling greater diversity of program and teachers, in terms of their background, to teach children. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Chai rman, I'm not quite sure that the Minister is convinced that any sort of major effort is required is this particular area of concern.

I am more concerned about what is being provided to the graduates from the school system, the high school sector of the school system, than I am concerned about the primary levels, the elementary levels. However, Mr. Chairman, I think I can speak with some sort of personal experience, having spent nine of my elementary years in a one room school with fifteen kids in it and one teacher. But, my experience is that the critical

part in the decision-making

part is not so much there, as it is at the high school level and coming out at the Grade 11, Grade 12 , stage, when the decisions about future vocation is being made. So my concern that I am expressing is that some consideration be given, and I don't think it's an expensive undertaking, to determine whether there is equal opportunity or the best effort is being made to provide equal opportun ity for the young person trying to decide what he is going to do as he migrates out of the school system. Well, Mr.

Chairman, one other point I wanted to ask the Minister with regards to research is as to whether or not any sort of an evaluation has been attempted to determine the desirability, or otherwise, of continuing with the open area classroom system. I realize that this is primarily a decision that is made by the school boards in their various jurisdictions and worked out with their architect and so on in the design of their schools.

However, I think it's the sort of question that I'm sure the school boards would apprecia te some sort of assistance and guidance with in determining patterns of their future building programs. There appea rs to be a slackening off on this direction of going for open area classrooms. There seems to be sort of a hybrid type of a classroom physical 363

Friday, March 4, 1977 structure developing out of the experience over the last ten or twelve years where they went from the closed classroom, single classroom, to the wide open area divided only by very temporary dividers, that in effect really put together any number of classrooms, 10, 12 or 15 classrooms, effectively under one roof. I think one of the first experiences in this area was in the City of Thompson, where there was some pioneering done with the widest open areas that existed under the one-roof school there. In this connection, Mr.

Chai rman, I wanted to ask the Minister whether in ap plying his thinking or staff to looking at this area, whether or not it had been done from an examination of both the student and from the poin 'of view of the t I would apprecia te any comments he might have here as to whether there is any intensive work going on in this area? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. TURNBUL L: Mr. Chairman, the earlier part of the member's remarks did deal with opportunities of students in rural areas coming out of or finishing their secondary education.

I can tell him, I'm sure he's aware, that there are now more industrial and home ec type courses available in the rural areas than there has ever been in the past, to the extent that that provides more diversity of educational opportunity, it's there and in place and it's being utilized. There is also, of course, not in my Estimates, Mr. Chairman , but in another department's Estimates, perhaps the most significant factor which encourages and enables students from rural areas to further their education after the post secondary level.

I'm talking here, of cour se, of the Student Bursary Plan, which the Honourable Minister of Continuing Education and Manpower will be able to deal with during his Estimates. There are well in excess of ten millions of dollars provided for those bursaries, which was never the case years ago and those bursaries are available on the basis of the student's ability and on the basis of the student's parent's income. So that to the extent that bursaries do enable the rural student to overcome one of the greatest problems that that student faces, namely, financing him or herself at a secondary institution.

I think that bursary plan has been extraordinarily successful in making that assistance available. The Member for Riel I know comes from a town, a small town, very closeto where my wife came from. One of the biggest problems of folk coming from rural areas in the past was not so much how to pay tuition and buy the books, but how to stay alive while they were at university because they had to live away from home. That problem, I think to a large extent, of support, fina ncial support, has been overcome by the Student Bursary Program.

The open area matter, as the Member for Riel has clearly indicated, is a responsibility of the school division. The school division decides whether they want open area, they decide the degree of openness that they want, they decide on what partitions, if any, will be in the open area. They decide, too, one of the most important factors, namely which of their teachers will teach in the open area setting.

There has to be a certain judicious ad ministrative discretion on the part of school administrators in the schools to select those teachers who are best suited to teach in open area, otherwise the open area is not going to be as beneficial to students as it otherwise could be. We have made research money avai lable to people outside of the Department of Education to do some research into the benefits of open area type education. I shouldn't say benefits, I should say to evaluate the operation of open area classrooms in the Manitoba school system.

This research, as I say, is research by nature of commission to a non civil servant. I think it is important that the department report education research of that kind. The results are not finalized, have not been revised for publication and I'm sure the Member for Riel, being at one time anyway an academic at the engineering faculty, knows that research in its first draft usually has to be gotten into a form where that it can be published so people can understand it. Grammar has to be revised and things like that.

I'm under the impression that . that is now being done and that this research will be available in the near future, on open areas. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if the Minister in general could confirm (1) that the trend is away from open area and back to the traditional type of one room school, or not one room school but single classroom, which appears to be showing up in the newer schools now.

(2) The observation that is past on by some school administrators that while the open area is in their suspicion somewhat less desirable from the point of view of accommodating a large enough majority of all students, even if there's a 15 percent group of students that do not adapt to this, that on the other hand that an open area system allows for the better form of teacher evaluation.

As a result of it, with the open area system, the teacher evaluation program that goes on I suppose within the school by the principal, and so on, is actually the open area system has brought about a technique that allows the spotting of teacher weaknesses and, in fact has brought about from that point of view, a better screening and upgrading of their staff as they come in and go through the procedures of a year or two's instruction and so on. 1 mean 1 wanted to get at these basic things that we're going at.

Perhaps this is what his report is doing but this seems to be sort of common knowledge to the people that are in the business, notto me or to others of us who are not in the teaching business or in the education, but that this seems to be 364

Friday, March 4, 1977 the pattern that is coming out of it. MR. TURNBUL L: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I do believe that for a school administrator and school principal the open area would enable him or her to see more readily how teachers are performing. I think that's fairly obvious. I don't have opinions about open area versus other kinds of school organization, other than to say, of course, the one room school which is often vaunted as one of the best systems of education, that one room school is in fact an open area school. That's rather the interesting comparison that one can make. MR.

CHAI RMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I have a couple of questions for the Minister. The whole basic basis of survival of the rural part of the province espec ially, is generally built around the survival of small business and if rural Manitoba is going to survive under the economic conditions that we face in Canada today and in fact North America and around the world, the urban centres seem to be thriving and developing and yet the rural communities are slowly but surely eroding away.

In all likelihood, the only way that there is a possibility of that base being rejuvenated or of ever recovering agai n, I would think maybe part of our educational system has to be at least pointed in that direction to take a look at the young people today who are maybe interested in what was a viable part of our society at one time. I am wondering in the evaluation, the department hP'1 maybe not looked at it yet, but are you prepared to maybe see if there's more input put into the young people today about how a business or a small business survives.

In speaking with some of the well-known labour leaders in this province not very long ago, the matter of productivity came up and another factor, that he said our ed ucation system is going to have to get back and let the students recognize and understand that productivity is again part of our survival in this province and some of the labour problems today are the problems of productivity and the businessman as well. I am wondering if the department may be not ready; it's a very long-ranging study that would be involved but if they are even looking in that field at this time. MR. TURNBUL L: Mr.

Chairman, I think of all the remarks that I have heard the Member for Roblin make in this House, those are the most cogent, pertinent and penetrating that I have heard him make. I ag ree with him. I had an exchange earlier I think today with the Member for Assiniboia about the need to challenge young people. l believe they need to be challenged and in a way, that is just another manner of stating that productivity is important; in other words, they should, as individuals, try to work to their capacity or near capacity. I think it's important.

The department has, I hope, through various programs in business education, brought to rural areas as well as urban areas, the techniques and skills required for a smal l business. To the extent that those programs take hold and have effect on our young people, I think that they will have a beneficial effect on the maintenance of small businesses in rural areas which we all recognize are necessary if those rural areas are going to continue to survive. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 49 (a) . The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, prior to the dinner hour, we had a question or two that were left with the Minister and 1 believe he was going to supply some detailed answers in respect to the qualifications and school experience of those members of his ER PA branch that are doing the evaluating in the schools and the school system. MR. TURNB ULL: There were a number of questions, Mr. Chairman. I'll try to gi ve as many answers to the ones that are outstanding as I can. There were questions about the number of meetings of the school buildings pr oject committee.

There were 38 meetings and there was discussion of between April 1st, 1976 and January 31 , 1977, the period the Member was interested in, 101 projects. The Projects Review Committee had 43 meetings and 101 decisions were made as a result of the initial project approval. In other words, these two committees had 81 formal meetings and there were 202 decisions in the period April 1, 1976 to Januar y 31 , 1977. The Member for La Verend rye who apparently has gone again wanted to know how many of the decisions of the Board of Reference related to one of the divisions in his area namely the Hanover Division.

There were two awards; one was pending. The one pending was a move of property, I think that that's what it would be from Hanover to Red River School Division. There were questions related to the GED. In 1974-75, 2,128 appl ied to write; 1,581 achieved standing. Of these, 52 were in Grade 10; 160 in Grade 11; 1,369 in Grade 12 .

Of the General Education Development tests, in 1975-76, 2,983 applied to write; 2,252 achieved standing and of these, 50 were in Grade 10; 245 were in Grade 11 and 1 ,953 were in Grade 12. 1n 1976-77, 3,209 applied to write; 2,352 achieved standing and of these, 65 were Grade 10; 255 in Grade 11 and 2,032 were Grade 12 . There were questions about qualifications and experience of staff in the Evaluation, Research and Policy Analysis Branch which is the branch that we are discussing. Would the Member mind if I omitted the names? Is that okay?

Rather than identify people by name, if we just drop the name off and give the qualifications. One of the staff has visite� �� umber of divisions du.ri�� the past year. Of these, he was in nine rural divisions; two northern diVISions and two urban diVISions. Now for the qualifications. Number of degrees, there were two aca demic degrees; two education degrees and 365

Friday, March 4, 1977 three diplomas in education. That guy's got more education than you or I, Ed. Number of years of government experience, two years. Teaching experience 20 years. Total experience 22 years. Teaching certificate held - a permanent professional and a principal certificate. The second staff member: number of degrees - a B.A. 1965; B. Ed. 1966; Masters of Education 1976; Number of years of government experience - 2; teaching expe rience - 10 years; total experience -12 years; teaching certificate -permanent first class. Staff member: number of degrees -has a B. A., an M.A. and a PhD.

Numbero f years of government experience - one; teaching experience - 4 years. Another staff member: education qualifications honors degree in Bachelor of Arts, University of Toronto; number of years of government experience -one-half; teaching experience -University of Toronto one year; experience -child care worker inner city -three years; curriculum development teacher education, /, two years. and ad ult education I can't conceive, Mr. Chairman, what the Member for Bran don West or the Conservative Pa rty wants this information for or indeed needs it for. However, I will continue.

The ones I have just described were the professional staff of the department. Now moving to Research Assistants , one of these doesn't have a degree, has two years social work at the University of Manitoba. That's incomplete. The number of years of government experience , four years.

A second Research Assistant : number of degrees, has a Bachelor of Science degree, a diploma in Education, has a professional certificate P1A 4, is presently doing the Bachelor of Education program at the University of Manitoba; number of years of government experience, two; teaching expe rience, taught science at Junior and Senior High levels for four years. Another Research Assistant who is working part time: number of degrees - 2 years in Education, not yet complete; a certificate in communications and report writing, number of years of government , two and one-half experience years.

And the secretary - does the member really want to get down to the secretaries as well? Does he want all this information, a dossier on everybody? Or is that sufficient? MR. McGIL L: Mr. Chairman, what I was asking for was, were the qualificiations of those people who were actually out in the field doing evaluations in the schools and the school system, so when the Minister has been able to give me those people , then that would complete the question. MR. TURNBULL: I understand the member asked for those people in the evaluation

section of the branch who are out in the field and I have given him all the information that he's asked for. MR. McGIL L: Mr. Chairman , what my purpose was here was to try and discover whether the teams that were being used to evaluate the teac hing and the school system in the schools were made up of people who were proven experienced teachers who had competence in teaching and who had the abilities to win the confidence of the people that they were evaluating. Now, some of the qualifications here obviously are people who have been teaching. Have they had experience in our school systems here?

Are these largely from Manitoba, with experience in Manitoba or are they people who have had experience in other MR. TURNB ULL: Mr. Chairman, just from my scanning the additional information on the sheets, I think the majority of them received their university training in Manitoba except for the one that I mentioned who received university education in Toronto. I think the majority of them have had experience in the Manitoba school system and I think the majority of each individual's experience has been in the Manitoba school system.

I think that's an accurate reflection of where they received their university training and where they have obtained their experience as well. The Member for Brandon West also wanted a list of schools in which there were internal/external evaluations and other evaluations. I guess he has a very good reason for wanting all this information as well. If the member wants make a table I can give it to him this way: Across the top in a horizontal line he can write Division, one column; Schools, second column; School Popu lation, third column; Number of Teachers, fourth column.

This is for internal-external evaluation, 1975-76: Under Division, Duck Mountain; Number, 34; under Schools, Camperville Elementary, Ethelbert, Fork River, Pine River, Rorketon, Winnipegosis Collegiate, Winnipegosis Elementary -that's for a total of seven schools; under School Population, 1 ,545; under Number of Teachers, 85; Next , under the column Division, western, Number, 47; under Schools, Maple Leaf, Mason, Morden Collegiate, Morden Elementary, Oak Haven; Total Schools, five; under School Population, total 1,291; under Number of Teachers, total 71 .

Under Division -River East No. 9, Kildonan East Regional Secondary School, Salisbury Elementary; School Popula tion, 545; Number of Teachers, 25. I hope that information is in cogent order as the member took it down. Internal-external evaluation, '76-77; same horizontal headings, Division, School, School Popu lation, Number of Teachers. Under the column for Division , ... River No. 43; under Schools, Deloraine Collegiate - this reminds me, Mr.

Chairman, of education as it used to be 50 years ago, where the students had to get up and either do by rote or in some other way, perform memory work which 1 never regard as interesting as thinking - under Schools, Deloraine Collegiate, Deloraine Elementary, Melita, Pierson, Tilston Elementary and Waskada; Number of Schools, six; under School Population, 1 ,549; Number of Teachers, 85. 366

Friday, March 4, 1977 Back over to the left-hand column under Division -Brando n, No. 40; under Schools, Alexander, Beecher, Betty Gibson, Crocus Plains Regional Secondary, David Livingstone, Earl Haig Junior High, Earl Oxford Junior High, Fleming, George Fiddon, Green Acres, Harrison Junior High, J. R. Reid, King George, Lyndon Lanes, Meadows, Neelin High, Riverview, Sacred Heart , St. Augustine's, The New Era, Valley View Centennial, Vincent Massey High - tota l, 22 schools; School Population, 8,054; Number of Teachers, 400 plus.

And continuing, the Leaf Rapids School in the third column, School Popula tion, 500; Number of Teachers, 32. Under the lefthand column, Mountain, Number 28, Dan Durand, Evergreen Colony, Fairhome Specia l, Mariapolis, Note Dame Collegiate, Notre Dame Elementary, Richard Somerset Collegiate, St. Alphonse Elementary, St. Claude, St. Leon Elementary, Ste. Marie, Swan Lake, for a total of 13 schools; School Population column, 1809; Number of Teachers, 100. Mystery Lake School Division, Number of Schools, R. D.

Parker Collegiate which I visited last Thursday, Eastwood Elementary which I visited last Thursday, Westwood Elementary which I visited last Thursday, Deerwood Elementary, Riverside Elementary, Juniper Elementary, and Burntwood, where I ran two and-a-quarter miles last Thursday, seven schools all in all, for the Member for Brandon West. - (I nterjection) - I ran two miles around that basement track there.

I would like to hear the Member for Bran don East comment on whether he thinks schools should have gyms or at least tracks under the school in order to keep children in good physical condition as they are apparently in the Burntwood School where there is a track. School Popu lation in this Mystery Lake area, 4,500; Number of Teachers, 250.1 can go faster if the Member wants. You are making notes, are you, .. ? MR. McGILL: Yes. MR.

TURN BULL: We're continuing with the other information that the Member for Brandon West wanted with regard to evaluation involvement and evaluation conducted by the Evaluation Research and Policy Analysis Branch of the Department of Ed ucation. Here we are now moving into other evaluations. We have been talking about internal-external. Here, if the member would like to jot down in a horizontal line: school, project, number of students, number of teachers. That will give four columns. In the first column, I think I will read these across horizontally in each case.

Shaughnessy Park Community School evaluation, students 768; teachers 34. For the information of the Member for Brandon West, I visited this school during a school day and found it a most interesting place to be because the parents of the area were at that time in the school and they were doing various jobs, tasks, related to teaching and they were also dealing or figuring out howtheywere going to deal with a community problem with regard to traffic control, which the Member for St. James might be interested in.

In Shaug h nessy Park Corn mu n ity School, the parents were helping themselves and the students to deal with the problem of traffic control. William Whyte School: William Whyte Community School evaluation; students 517; number of teachers 26. Portage La Prairie, Test Bank: 4,31 7 students; 236 teachers. William Whyte evaluation -banking time: 514 -26.

William Whyte shortened school day: 514 -26; Portage la Prairie shortened school day: 4,3 17 -236; La Verendrye shortened school day: 308 -14; Winnipeg No. 1, 14 schools, I don't have the names of the precise schools here, 14 schools in Winnipeg No. 1 shortened school day: 38,770 students, 2,371 teachers. St. Vita l, Glenwood, banking time: 405 -22; Fort Garry, Acadia - a change in school hours-1 don't have the information hereabout number of students, number of teachers. Province-wide evaluation, Grade 4 parent survey: 300 parents. I have information also with regard to Leaf Rapids internal-external.

Question number one was how many outside and inside people involved on the committee? One external - John Shaw, Department of Education; eight internal -that is, internal to the Division. The superintendent, trustee, principal, parent, teacher, two students, one member of local MTS. Second question asked: how do costs get appor tioned? Total expenditu res $3,266.03 by the department. Division billed department for $491 .06. Question three: What are travel costs and who pays? Travel- $2,532.72 paid by departme nt.

The visitations to Leaf Rapids and Mystery Lake which is Thompson were pooled to reduce costs.l think, Mr. Chairman, that those were answers to all the questions that were outstanding from earlier today and yesterday. I hope the Member for Brandon West has the detail that he sought in this regard. MR. McGILL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, that detail was very helpful. Starting in the last bit of information for the Leaf Rapids internal-external evalua tion, I think you said the total expenditure was $3,266.03. If that is correct . . . MR. TURNB ULL: Yes to February 28th of this year. MR.

McGILL: ... and the travel expense involved was $2,532.72, Mr. Chairman, is that correct that that much of the total expenditure was involved in travel for this internal-external evaluation? MR. TURNB ULL: Don't forget, Mr. Chairman, if I may, that the travel expenses are expenses not just to Rapids but also of course, during that swing, the people involved would be going into Thompson as well. 1 don't know how you allocate costs; I don't want to play that allocation of costs 367

Friday, March 4, 1977 game with the Member for Brandon West; that's the cost expended. The people involved in that travel did go to two different places and as you notice in the information I just gave him, the dropping into Thompson, the Mystery Lake School Division, involves any departmental person in work in seven schools and then don't forget, of course, also that travel in Northern Manitoba is expensive. lt's $1.04 for a gallon of gas in Thompson. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, the Minister did tell me that there was only one external person involved in this Leaf Rapids internal-external evaluation, Mr.

John Shaw. Did Mr. John Shaw have bills of $2,532.72? MR. TURNBU LL: Well, from the information I have it looks like it, Mr. Chairman. MR. McGILL: Again, Mr. Chairman, the amount of information that was given about these internal-external evaluations, there was a very impressive list for 1975-76. Surely, Mr. Chairman, that work must have been done by the Field Services Branch. I was asking for the work that had been done by the evaluation team from this branch.

Was not the Field Services Branch in place during 1975-76 and did they not in fact do this work which the Minister is putting down for th is branch of evaluation? MR. TURNB ULL: Mr. Chairman, I don't think that is the case. Certainly I can havestaff-they are all here somewhere - and we'll get that checked. lt's my understand ing that what I have just described to the member is work done by evaluation, research and policy analysis people and if that's not the case, I certainly will give him a correction. If it is the case, though, I will just let it go. MR. McGILL: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I'd be interested to have that confirmed one way or the other. There was a question answered pertaining to an earlier debate and that was in respect to the number of meetings of the School Buildings Project Committee. The Minister told the committee that the assignment of the former Director of the Field Service Branch was to the Committee of School Buildings Projects and I assume that his duties involved attending the meetings. I don't know what his position was in that Projects Committee.

They had 38 meetings, which I would gather was the extent of the former Director of Field Services' involvement with actual duties during the period of ten months. Mr. Chairman, this was one who had given a great deal of service to the Department of Education, I presume, he was one of the top men in the department. lt seems an inadequa te use of his talents to have relegated him to attending 38 meetings between April 1st and the date of his retirement, Januar y 31st of this year. I hope the Minister will be able to perhaps enlighten me on that.

He did say that there were 101 projects discussed and of that 101, he did give me a figure of the number of building projects which were appr oved by that committee. I'd like the Minister again to comment and confirm that I understand exactly what he is giving me in respect to the employment of Mr. Dunfield, subsequent to the dismantling of the Field Services Branch . MR. TURN BULL: Well, Mr. Chairman, the individual referred to by the Member for Brandon West, as I understand it, was a man, at age 65, or very close to it.

I don't know any detail what he did with each of his working days in the Department of Education, but I do know this, that he chaired that committee, and that the chairman of the committee would be a person who would have to be cognizant, knowledgeable, of all the detai ls of all the projects that were going through that committee. That was his job.

To be knowledgeable of those kinds of projects, including everything that's done, the members of this committee, and certainly the chairman, must make field trips. lt's not the kind of job that enables them to sit in the office -at least I hope it isn't -and make arm-chair decisions. I would have assumed that this gentleman, even though he was approa ching retirement, would have been able to move out into the field, would have been active in talking to trustees and superintendents in the field to, in effect, evaluate the need for these school projects of one kind or another.

That is my understanding of what he did. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 49( a). The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McG ILL: Mr. Chairman, we have had a considerable discussion of the appropria tion that has been requested here for evaluation and research. We're not at all convinced that the research being carried on by this branch is contributing in a real way to the improvement of the educational system in our province, to improvements in the method of delivery.

We have had explanations from the Minister on the qualifications of the Acting Director, they don't appear to be in the field of actual experience in evaluation and research. We note, too, that the appropriation in this item has increased, while many of the appropriations and estimates that the Minister is requesting are somewhat reduced. This one has increased . So, Mr. Chairman, it is with regret that I find that we cannot support this appropria tion. MR.

TURNBULL: I think the member, before he puts his neck on the block, should realize that the appropriation that you see there being increased, includes the amount of money for the student evaluation project that I had under way, and which he and other members of the opposition did indicate that they supported. Now it's not a full-blown departmental examination system, and I've told you that, and I've indicated to you what the two main purposes of that program are. If you're not in support of this kind of evaluation, then that's fine but you should realize that the increase in the 368

Friday, March 4, 1977 appropr iation in this branch is for that student testing program . I thought you supported it. You are now saying that you can't which, I say to you, if that's the case, that's fine, you've contradicted yourself in other areas about programs that you disag reed with years ago and now wish to support such as pharmacare, the reduction of medicare premiums, etcetera. But I just want to point out to you that there is some inherent contradiction in the remark that you just made about not supporting this appropria tion, when in fact you have said that you support the testing prog ram. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, the Minister has a habit of placing his own

interpretations and his own meanings on positions and statements that have been said from this side of the House. And he can place whatever interp retation he chooses on our decision on this particular vote. Our decision is based on the performance of this particular branch, in the past, and its value insofar as education is concerned. lt has nothing to do with whether or not we vote for or against it. lt has nothing to do with a position that we may want to take or have taken on particular single items in this estimate.

We choose to regard this as a means of demonstrating our feelings on a performance in this particular branch. There is one way that we can demonstrate that so that it's on the record, and that is simply to vote against the appr opriation. The Minister is not going to try to convolute the decisions that are made on this side by placing

interpretations on it, that are his, and his alone, not ours. MR. TURNB ULL: Mr. Speaker, much of my education as a politican, and as a Minister, has been learned from members in the House, including the Member for Morris. And I do recall a long, protracted and very emotional heated debate on certain items in this House with regard to taxation, when the Member for Morris accused the Member for St. Johns of all kinds of misdeeds. My only point of rising a moment ago was to make it very clear to the members opposite what this vote contained. I certainly would not want to try to deter them from voting against it.

If they want to vote against it - fine. I just want them to be knowledgable about what it is they're voting against. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRIC K: Mr. Chairman, while we are still under the item, can the Minister indicate to the House if there is any kind of evaluating going on in respect to the teaching of languages in the school? I know that some of the other provinces are doing this and we are in quite a debate right across Canada as far as the teaching of languages and learning more than one language in schools at the present time.

I know that in some of the Winnipeg School Divisions some students are taking more than one or two langua ges besides English and French. Some students are availing themselves and taking Hebrew, German, Ukrainian, and some other langua ges as well. Now some students may be involved in taking as much as two extra languages. So my question to the Minister is: is the Department doing any kind of evaluating of these students? Are they able to take say two extra languages and as well be able to maintain and keep up with the other courses within the curriculum?

Are they doing as well as the other students who are not taking extra language courses or are these students doing better? I know that in some of the other provinces there has been some evaluation done, in Alberta I understand and in Ontario. The reports I get, that the students that are taking some two extra these languages and as well, keeping up with their other academic courses? Are they doing as well as the students that are not taking any languages or doing better? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. TURNBUL L: Mr.

Chairman, there are some extensive evaluations done of course on the French program which is one of the last votes in my departmental Estimates and I think that is the appropria te place to discuss that. There are under, I believe it is Consultant Services, Vote 4( c), moneys provided for the consultant in the other languages than French and English, that is other than English as a second language, and at that point I can provide him with information about that.

However, with these languages other than French and English, I think he should realize that those students that are taking German, Italian, Hebrew and other languages are usually acad emically inclined students. They are usually very good students and I would think that they are likely doing extraordinarily well. I know in the area I live in those students who are continuing to study two or three foreign languages are extremely good students and I think that is the case generally.

But I will see what evaluation in terms of statistics that we can find for him and certainly relay it to him when we get to that vote 4(c) . Staff have made a note of that and we will have it for him. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 49(a) . Shall the item pass? MR. JORGENSON: Ayes and Nays, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Ayes and Nays. Call in the Members. Order please. The item before the House is Resolution 49(a) , Salaries- $4 19,400.00. A STANDING COUNTED VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas 28, Nays 15. MR. CHAIRMAN: I declare the motion carried.

Resolution 49(b) - pass; Resolution 49- Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $783,4 00 for Education - pass. -(I nterjections)- 369

Friday, March 4, 1977 Resolution 51 - The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, we'll get back now to the delayed discussion on the subject of the feedback sessions. I think the Minister preferred that we get his explana tions in this

section under Administration and Organizational Support. We are interested in knowing just how this program is being used, what kind of response they are getting and how many meetings have been held with this theme of getting a feedback as it is described from the people of the various divisions in Manitoba. MR. TURNBUL L: I was wondering if the members are sure they don't want to discuss the major program which is Financial Support. They prefer going to vote 4, do they, as we agreed earlier? Feedback sessions, Mr.

Chairman, are really designed to enable the staff of the department to go out to the schools and meet with the people who are actually responsible for delivering educational programs to our children. I don't think anything could be more important than having the civil servants get into the field to talk to those who are in the front lines, if I can use the analogy I started my Estimates with. I think the day is far gone when civil servants sit in their offices in these cloistered halls, in these big offices, and not get out to the field.

Therefore we have feedback sessions which do require departmental staff to go out and ta lk to all of the people involved in education, the superintendents, the assistant superintendents, the principals, the teachers. The Manitoba Teachers Society has agreed to select representatives for most of these meetings. Five major areas are normally discussed, as I understand it, at a feedback workshop and these five major areas are: Child Development and Support Services; Program Review; Special Projects; Media Services and Consultant Services.

You will note, Sir, that these five areas are the areas in which we find departmental staff who on an ongoing basis continually are out in the field and these are the five areas where staff of the department have most impact. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. If the honourable members wish to have a caucus meeting I suggest they go to their caucus room. MR. TURNBUL L: Thank you, Mr. Cha irman. The teachers, I am told, reacted to departmental reports on those sessions offering advice and criticism. Their reactions, I am advised, were generally positive.

Feedback sessions have been held in Gimli, Steinbach, Souris, Dauphin, Minnedosa, Winnipeg area (2) -I assume that means two feedback sessions in the Winnipeg area - in Thompson ,a nd for special area groups in Winnipeg. The purpose, as I say, is to have feedback sessions that do come into contact with all those involved in the delivery of educational services in the schools. These feedback sessions have been held with the teachers, with principals - the one that would organize feedback sessions for superintendents has not yet been set up.

But I should advise the Member for Brandon West that the Superintendents Association, as are these other organizations such as MTS and MAST, are very well organized and although the staff have not had a session with the superintendents as yet, the superintendents have had, if my memory serves me correctly, three meetings with me over various proposals and papers, positions that they want to get across to the Ministry of Education. Those meetings, I can say, have been extremely fruitful. I hope they have been as fruitful for those involved as the feedback sessions have been for the people involved in them. MR.

McG ILL: Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to hear that these feedback sessions have been fruitful and I trust that they have been well attended. I understand that one of the feedback sessions that the Minister mentioned in his list was held at Steinbach. l believe, Mr. Chairman, that particular feedback session was on Thursday, February 3rd and that was attended by the Deputy Minister of Education and 17 other departmental officials. I wonder if that is the kind of representation that is usual from the department at feedback sessions - the Deputy Minister and 17 other departmental officials.

They were there to meet the people, I understand, from five school divisions. Mr. Chairman, eight people showed up for the session and I wonder if that is typical of the kind of response that the feedback sessions are getting around the country - that's five divisions. Seventeen people from the Department of Education met eight people representing five school divisions. There was another mention of a feedback session at Souris and that session I understand ended on a very thoughtful note when a woman got up and said, "lt's all very well for you people to come out from Winnipeg but it's completely useless.

" -(I nterjections)- I'll repeat what the lady said on a thoughtful note at Souris to the feedback session, " lt's all very well for you people to come out from Winnipeg but it's completely useless. We need a representative of the Department of Education resident nearby, one who knows the area and its problems and is available for consultation." I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if there is much of this kind of feedback because it apparently gets very little publicity from the department. MR. TURNBUL L: Mr.

Chairman, I'm most interested in the woman's comment at that feedback session as relayed to me by the Member for Brandon West because it really is a stated concern which the department has attempted to meet by relocating departmental staff in areas outside of Winnipeg. Indeed, in Thompson I believe there are two people located - professional people I am talking about, not their support staff - in Brandon there is one, a Mr. Decosse and I don't think Souris is all thatfar 370

Friday, March 4, 1977 from Brandon . lt seems to rne when I went down to Souris and then to Killarney to talk to teachers, to which I had 35 and 80 teachers turn out, there was a very short distance to cover between the two. I'm sure the lady that made this representation and the Member for Brandon West are not suggesting that there be a departmental representative in Brandon, in Souris, in Killarney, and in every other town or village in Manitoba. Surely that's not the thrust of his report. But I can assure him that that has been the attempt of the department over time, to relocate people in these areas. Indeed, the

section on which so much debate occurred last year, headed by the Member for Brandon West, was a debate about some of the people that are now decentralized in various sections of the province. In addition to those of course that came from that branch, as we go through Program Development and Support Services, I will have occasion to indicate to the Member for Brandon West that indeed the Department of Education has staff located, or pays for staff who are hired and are located in local school divisions and are very close to the scene of action in the schools.

So I think, although the lady expressed a concern and one which I share, she should realize that this decentralization of some staff has occurred over the last while and it has been a decentra lization that as I understood last year's debate, was opposed by you, the Member for Brandon West. When we get to the point that you mentioned about the proportions of representation of departmental people and non-departmental people at Steinbach, I have to say that I am startled at that disproportionate number.

If the number of individuals going out to these feedback sessions is that great, then I am here and now directing the staff to reduce the number of departmental staff that go �o these feedback sessions; that is just too many, pure and simple. The other side of the coin is that it is regrettable that the teachers in that particular area of Steinbach, or that particular area to which they came to a meeting in Steinbach, it's regrettable that so few teachers came. I don't know what the reason for this would be. lt could possibly have beeh weather.

Weather can be a problem, as the Member for Brandon West knows, in getting people out to meetings. But eight teachers from five divisions, to go to such a session, is really regrettable, and I would ad monish the Teachers Society and the Teacher Locals in those divisions to try to get their people out through those feedback sessions, because I think it is important. lt's important simply because of the need for good, direct communication between departmental staff and the people in the field.

I think that the representation though in other areas, where feedback sessions were held, was better on behalf of the teachers. That kind of low number of turnout from five divisions which, you know, even at a very rough approximation of 200 teachers per division, that would be 1,000 teachers. To get only eight out to a meeting such as this is really, as I say, quite regrettable. There may have been extenuating circumstances. lt may have been weather. lt may have been the atmosphere, political or otherwise, it may have been some other activity that was on, a curling bonspiel or what have you.

But I do hope that the department will reduce the number of staff to be more in line with the number of teachers that are coming, and I do hope that when these feedback sessions are advertised, that more teachers will respond, because I think it is important that staff in a central office such as Winnipeg, get out to the field and be in contact with the people who are delivering education programs in the schools. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, related to this delegation which went to Steinbach, I am reminded of the Minister's News Bulletin of January 21, 1977, where he urges the school divisions to restrain increases, and to try and keep expenses down. I think the final lines on Page 1 were significant and typical of the thrust of this restraint message, and he said, "We will expect Divisions to limit, wherever possible, program increases to those which are absolutely necessary and to strengthen th�ir routine, cost-cutting and economizing procedures." Mr. Chairman, I hope that those restraint entreaties apply to his own department as well.

I hope that the same message would be going out to employees of his own department. In the case of the visit to Steinbach, the transportation was somewhat excessive, I thought. The Deputy took one car, his Executive Assistant took another, and several other drivers took the remaining 16 people' either in government cars or private ones' and the latter of course would be about 19 % cents a mile, or $1 5.00 a car. Now, Mr.

Chairman, this is not a lot of money in terms of dollars for this particular expedition, but it certainly doesn't indicate that the department is really restraining itself in terms of cost-cutting and economizing. Surely the Minister is not proposing a policy of restraint for others, but not for his own department. MR. TURNBUL L: Mr.

Chairman, without accepting completely what the member has said, until it is checked, 1 do want, none the less, to say that if that is the case, it should hot have happened, that clearly there should be some rationalization in the economic sense of the utilization of transpor tation to go to these meetings. Once again, sta nding here with as much staff as are around, I would ask them to do that, to rationalize transportation when they are going out into the field. I might add something here which 1 have been attempting to achieve.

I think there is need for cost-cutting of the kinds that would be implied in what we are now discussing, and further, I think there is need to have increased co-ordination between the various sections of the department as they visit. 371

Friday, March 4, 1977 Now what I mean by that is that on any given week you may have someone from one department, someone from another department, someone from another branch, I mean, different branches going out. lt would seem to me that there could be some way of co-ordinating that if possible. Part of the problem though, there, lies in the fact that divisions ask for departmental people to come out, and the Member for Bran don West well knows that if they didn't go out when they were asked, then he would be standing in his place saying that they should have gone out when they were asked.

But between the two extremes, I think there is need for co-ordination, and I think certainly there is need for rationalization of the use of government or even private vehicles at government expense' for transporting staff to such sessions as these feedback sessions. MR. McG ILL: Mr. Chairman, during the introductory statement of the Minister, he mentioned review committees that had been established, and these review committees would relate to the senior high years and the middle years and the elementary years. I think there were three divisions of the review committees.

Perhaps this would properly come under this program development, and I wonder if the Minister could tell us if he has sanctioned the establishment of this committee structure, and whether or not he has authorized the department to pay honoraria to members which would be at a rate of non-departmental members, $40.00 a day and $75.00 a day for other members. Perhaps those figures surely would be reversed where departmental members might be getting honoraria and others would be receiving an increased amount.

But the question then, really is, have the establishment of these committees been authorized by the Minister and what are the honoraria attached to these posts. MR. TURNB ULL: Mr. Chairman, you may wish to discuss this item here, but it really falls in Appropriation (b). What do you wish to do? lt's just a matter of maintaining order, Mr. Chairman. lt doesn't make any difference to me whether I discuss everything all at once or in accordance with the Estimates book, but I am told that the money for the program development committees of the three that the Member for Brandon West mentioned, are in vote 4( b).

We are on vote 4(a) . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The Chair would prefer that matters be discussed under the appropria te heading. Resolution 51 . The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. TURNBU LL: Mr. Chairman, I did want to add that the cost-cutting that the Member for Brandon West mentioned, really has occurred within the department. If you look at Program Development and Support Services as a total, I think you will find that the increase for these whole two pages of expenditures here, under which the feedback workshops come and everything else, the increase over last year is 2.1 percent.

And we all know that even the rate of inflation is higher than that, so I think there has been considerable paring of the Program Development and Support Services section. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 51 (a)(1 )-p ass; (a) (2)-pass; 51 (a)-pass; Resolution 51 (b)

(1) Program Development Secretariat. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: I think this was the item under which the Minister preferred to discuss the matter of the review committees. MR. TURN BULL: Mr. Chairman, as I understood the member, he was talking about per diems for those who are engaged in the work of the three program development committees. These would be, Mr. Chairman, the program development committees for the primary years, the middle years, and the senior years.

The process here, as I understand it, is to pay no per diem to departmental staff and there is, I don't think, per diem paid to others who are involved on those committees. Teachers and professors receive no remuneration but their substitutes are paid for. Non-professors such as citizen-trustees are paid $40 per diem on a Monday-to-Friday basis. For a weekend it is $75 per day and that same figure appl ies for weekend work for teachers and professors. I don't know if I mentioned trustees there, like for the nonprofessional citizens and trustees it's $40 Monday to Friday, $75 a day on weekends. MR.

DEPUTY CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: I understand, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister has sanctioned the establishment of these committees and he has authorized the per diem rates as he has given them to us.

That is, people within his department who are serving on these committees are not receiving a per diem honorarium but that people from outside the department are receiving an honorarium, except teachers and professors who may be serving during the normal weekday hours do not receive it but on weekends they receive an honorarium between $40 and $75, depending upon qualifications .. MR. TURNBU LL: I would like to make that clear. For these committees, this is my understanding, that professional people including teachers and professors receive no direct remuneration but there is a payment made for their substitutes.

I mean a teacher cannot be out of a school without someone replacing the teacher in the school. The replacement is paid for, okay? On the weekends these teachers or pr ofessors or other professional people will receive up to $75 a day. For the non professional people, citizens and trustees, it is $40 for a weekday and $75 for weekend work, the same as it is for the professional. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Resolution 51(b )(1) - pass; (b)(2) - pass; (b) (3) -p ass; . Resolution 372

Friday, March 4, 1977 51 (b) - pass. Resolution 51 (c), Consultant Services, (1 }, Salaries. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, in 1976-77, the Legislature voted more than a million dollars, I think the amount was $1 .057 million, for the professional development branch. That was called the Professional Development Branch and perhaps the Minister could tell us what happened to that branch and what happened to the funds. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR.

TURNBUL L: As the Member for Brandon West knows, there has been considerable reorganization of the department directed primarily at putting more of the departmental professional staff into the field to give support to teachers and to deliver programs directly to students. That program reorganization has meant that the branch that he mentioned is in fact now reallocated through all of these programs here. MR. McGILL: The million-odd dollars then are redistributed amongst the remaining programs and this particular branch has been eliminated, is that the explanation the Minister is giving us? MR.

TURNBULL: Yes, basically that is the general answer. Does the member want more detail? We can always give him more detail or try to. For example, the Professional Development Branch was absorbed into Consultant Services which is the Vote we are on, into Management Committee of Cab inet where two individuals went. That basically then, Mr. Chairman, has been the distribution that has occurred here and that is what happened to Program Development Bra nch. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I presume the Minister has concluded his remarks on that particular item.

I wasn't sure that he had given us all of the reallocation offunds but perhaps when he concludes his present conversat ions with his assistants he will be able to enlarge on that. I would like now under this item, Mr. Chairman, to direct the attention of the Minister to a subject very dear to his heart, the subject of physical education. I wonder if the Minister would give the House a brief

summary of the report on the status of Physical Education in Manitoba Schools. I think the report was called New Directions in Physical Education and was dated about October 1975. Mr. Chairman, I know that the Minister would like to expand on this subject and he undoubtedly has information for us. If he wishes to call it 4:30 rather than start this new subject, because I am sure we will be a few minutes or more on this topic. MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. MR. DEPU TY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vit al. MR. WALD ING: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Matthews, that the report of the Comm ittee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. HON. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I wo uld like to ask leave of the House to table the report that wasn't avai lable this morning and I would like to table it today if I may. MR. DEPU TY SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave? (Ag reed.) MR. DESJAR DINS: I would like to table the Annual Report of the Manitoba Lottery Commission for the last year.

A MEMBER: Explain? MR. DESJAR DINS: There is no explanation, Mr. Speaker, but if I may, if I could have leave agai n, I wish to state that I don't seem to find the way where we can discuss lottery and I think you're entitled to this information so I intend to give you further information during the Estimates, during my Salary, and have a good discussion on the lottery. MR. DEP UTY SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, there is an inclination I believe by all members of t he House to adjourn at this time. Before doing so, I would like to summarize the order of business for next week.

We will be proceeding with the Estimates in the two committees, or two branches, of the Committee of Supply. Following the Estimates of the Minister of Education in the Chamber, we will proceed to the Minister of Health and Social Development. And in the committee room outside of the Chamber, the Minister of Agricu lture will commence with his Estimates on Monday. I am hoping that we will be able to

schedule one Standing Committee next week, possibly on Thursday. The committee that we usually like to get called quickly is Public Accounts. I haven't checked that out yet, but I hope that on Thursday we will be doing it and if so, we'll be announcing it more formally next week. Otherwise we will be proceeding normally with the Estimates and with such bills as have been appearing on the Order Paper being given second reading. Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Morris, that the House do now adjourn. MOTION presented and carried. MR. DEPU TY SPEAKER: The House is accordingly adjourned and will stand adjou rned until2:30 Monday afternoon. 373

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-12b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 4th hansardpdf 12b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	2f4c7586735697c45e9b2423a3c0e7100c817c64

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).