Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, DECEMBER 12, 1975 Number 16 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER

December 12, 1975 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape no. 575 STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment. HON. A. J. MURPHY (Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment): Mr. Speaker, this is by way of answering many requests I get with reference to credit cards and interest charges on them, so today I will be releasing the followin~ statement. This is addressed to pretty well all the oil companies and the banks and those who are in the credit card business.

"The recently concluded postal strike has caused serious problems for people using your Credit Card Service. Because your customers could not be provided with statements of account, unpaid balances accumulated interest charges durin~ the stoppa~e in mail delivery. I am informed that you have reached an accommodation with other provinces and waived interest charges accumulated during the strike. As Minister responsible for Consumer Affairs I request that you extend this courtesy to your customers in Newfoundland.

An early reply would be appreciated." I have heard back from some but I just thought I would let the public know just what is happening. RON. E. M. ROBERTS (Leader of the Opposition): You informed all the credit card companies? MR. MURPHY: Pretty well all we know of, the oil companies, the banks and this type of thing. If there is any particular one, they can just contact us, and we will make it promptly. MR. SPEAKER: The Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to say just a word on that.

I think the minister has done a good thing, and the only thing I would ask is whether the government are prepared -assuming some of these charge companies play the game and other do not, because I think there can be no excuse for the charge companies not acceding to the minister's reques~ - would the government contemplate bringing in legislation, in effect, 1453

December 12, 1975 Tape no. 575 Page 2- mw Mr. Roberts ; to achieve what the minister had asked them to agree to, assuming they do not agree to it? MR. MURPHY: I do not see there is any reason, Mr. Speaker, why we could not do that. Nova Scotia and New Brunswick have already had this understanding from all these companies. NOTICES OF MOTION: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. HON. J. ROUSSEAU (Minister of Forestry and Agriculture): Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow introduce a bill, Bill No. 13, "An Act To Repeal The Newfoundland Agricultural Marketing Act." ANSWERS TO QUESTinNS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKEP.: The bon. Minister without Portfolio. HON. R. WELLS {Minister without Portfolio): Mr. Speaker, I undertook, in answer to a question by one of the hon. member1s opposite yesterday, to bring him up to date on the position of student residences for the College of Trades and Technology. The preliminary sketches were done- sketches or drawin~s, but very preliminary ones- they were sent to the principal,~r.

Duggan. They were examined by him, and they have been examined by the students. They have been received back with comments which wherever practical will be incorporated into the design. The final and completed plans they anticipate in the Department of Public Works will be ready within three months. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR . SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Provincial Affairs, in his capacity as Minister of the Environaeut.

I understand that there has been an oil spill in Conception Bay, somewhere up near the Seal Cove area, Could the minister please tell us whatever he may know about it and particularly what steps are being taken to deal with it? 1454

December 12, 1975 Tape no. 575 Page 3 - mw MR. SPEA-JCF.R: The han. Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment . MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, if I may, unfortunately, - I do not know if'unfortunately'is the word- but up to the present, I have not heard a word, but I will certainly contact the office immediately and find out if we can get right onto it. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: ---- Mr. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the ~!inister of Industrial and Rural Development, Sir. Would the minister inform the House whether Mr.

William Millan, former manager of the Marystown Shipyard, submitted a letter of resignation to the minister? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Industrial and Rural Development. RON. J. LUNDRIGAN ( ~l ini s ter of Industrial and Rur al Development) : To my knowledge, Sir 1 yes. }ffi.. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, will the minister table a copy of Mr. Millen's resignation or give the House the date of the letter of resignation? MR. LllNDRIGAN: Your Honour, there is no reason why I should give that information, but I will look into it. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, another question for the Minister of Industrial and Rural Development, Sir. In connection with the government's proposed programme to build stern trawlers in Marystown, has the Marystown Shipyard taken delivery of steel or any other machinery or equ i pment for the construction of these trawlers? MR. LUNDRIGAN: Your Honour, first of all there is no commitment by government at this stage to build stern trawlers in Marystown. There was a question raised in the House wherein an indication was given that that is an area of exploration on the part of government.

As far as steel being available is concerned there is considerable steel at present .on site in Marystown, which could be utilized for the construction of stern trawlers or any other ship that might be necessary,which was purchased some time ago and certainly puts us in a good position to be able to respond to any construction requests at the shipyard. 1455

December 12, 1975 Tape 576 ~'1?. NEATlY: llouJ.cl the rnf.nister undertake to give the House the c1oll:tr value of tl1e steel on hand that ~111!:' purchasecl to construct these steel tr~twlers? IB-l t'P. J,tiNDl' lCi\N : Your Honour, there ~vas considerable steel purchased to construct quite a number of steel tra~·Ylers. As a result of the ongoing programme of the last number of years there have been quite a nurn~er of trawlers. as the hon. member is aware, constructed at H:~rystown.

It has been an ongoing programme and we are very, very pleased with it. l•'e fncreasec1 the work force from 200 to 450 people as a result of that activity during that period. A" a result of the e>xpectec1 development of trawlers, there js steel now in place. I cannot give the dollar value of it but I believe perhaps it is well in excess of $1 million, if not approaching $2 m:! 1 lion worth of steel that :!.s able to he - MP. NEARY: Or $3 million. 'R . LUNnPTCAN : Or $3 million the hon. member suggests.

Perhaps $3 million or $5 million. ~'ayhe :!.n value it might be even $l1 million or $5 million nnw :If H had to be purchases at today's pr:lces. I cannot give yon the exact- through you, Sir- the exact amount of the value thet we paid for it at the time, or the yards paid for it. But it might be approximating $2 million. Some of this, Your Honour, is being deployed for the constntction of t.he new tur. that has been contracted for and has alrearly been pJ e1. ced jn position for the construct:!.on of that tug. ''ll. NEAPY: 1-!ell, a supplelflentary Sir - __ m.

SPEAKEr : Before the hon. gentleman makes his supplementary, I m] p,ht suggest that this be the last one I would allow on this particular question so that other members may have an opportun:!.ty to ask other auestions. "1'. NEAl'Y: Mr. Speaker, T want to aslr the minister if the money, whether it is $2 million or $3 million for this steel, if the money ,,las given to the shipyard liS a p:rant, if they were authorized to borrO'Io.' the money to buy this steel or what financial arrangements were made 1456

T'leC'.Pmber 12, 1975 vr> • NP.A 'PY : Tape 57fi IB-2 by the governMent ~nd the shipvards to purchase this steel for these stern tra~vJers that were supposed to be constructed? MR. LUNDRIGAN: Yot'r Honour, the ~arystoNn shipyards is an independent corporation in the sense that it is a ful 1-blown corporation which has a credit arrangement and good support from government, and it operates as a normal business. Is the han. member, Sir, suggesting there is something amiss or ~rrong or not in order? If he is, then he should lay his case before the Rouse and before the people so that H c;~n he properly explored.

He should not be permitted, Sir, to engage in - ~~. SPEAKEr: Order, please! '~. LtmnriGAN: - suggestions that could result in - trn . SPE.tiKEP.: Order, please! ~'P. I.UNnP.IC:ftN: - some people getting the impression that we are not satisfied - '~ SPEAKE'P: Order., please! ~m. Ll~PIC-AN: - w:lth the operations at the shipyards. ~~ . SPEAKEP: Order, please! The hon. mi.n:lster is in debate now. ~"' NEAP.Y: Yr. Speaker, T. am dissatisfied ~lith the ans~ver as g:lven to me. by the hon. the ~inister of Industrial and rural Development. I wish to debate the matter at the I,ate Sho"' next Thursday evening. t'P.

SPEAKEr: I wish to point out before recognizing the hon. gentleman to my right that~as has been pointed out a numher of t:!Ees, that any form of dehate in posinp the question or in answering is out of order. Hr. Speaker, to a point of something or other. }'ay T ;~sk Your Honour. if it :Is the establishetl, ancient, established princ:lple that when ~r. Speaker speaks there has to be complete silence hy all members ann all must take their seats? Is that not the P.stabl:l shed rule? ~'P • SPFAKF.T': It is my undPrstanding of it, yes. l'P. L111lT'IPir.AN: }'r. Speaker, on that point of order.

If I have over­ extentled myself in respond:lng, I apologize. That is the established rule ~·hi. ch T have practiced for quite a number of years and I woulcl not 1457

nece~~er 12, 1975 Tape 576 want, ~it , to rlevelop any had habits as a result of some of the examples t ~m seeing in the House these days. AN HON . 1-'E~'BEP : Hear ! Rear! !B-3 l"R. SPP.AKEP: The hon . member for Rurgeo-1.\ay D' P.spo:!r ('~r. Simmons). ¥P . Sli""'N~: " r . ~peaker, T have a couple of questions for the Minister t>f Tndustrii!l l'levelo pment about the same subject , the '·'ar ystown shipyard. 1 wonder if the l!l:!nister is now in a position to bring us up to date- or bring the llo\ISe up to date as to what the proj ecte<' cleficit for the cu rren t year m~y he at the shipya rd?

He in~icated sometime a~o, I unde r stAnd, a deficit in a baU park figure. I wonc!er if he is in a pos i tion to update us a little more at this time? MT'. SPEAKEP: The hon. 1-'inist er of Industr ial Development. 1-ffi. LUNJ)JIIGAN: Your Honour , I could not r,ive an off the top of the heacl indic~tton to the memhet on that particular question. The pre!>ent situation shows the yard) t o my knowledRe, the latest information T h:~ve , in a small prof:! t positior for t he p1:esent year .

The accumula te d losses over a period of , since the govern ment became i nvolved, is not nearly as signific an t as has been s tated publ icly re rtainly when the estim~tes of the department are before the Rouse we are most anxious to share any info~aticn necessal:J to co~vince the hon. ).'entleman t hat we are satisfiec! wit h the operat ion s at the sbip­ varc'l. 1-'R . ~PF.AKER: The hon. mel!lber for Burgeo-Ray n ' F.spoir, (Mr. Simmons) . 1458

December 12, 1975 Tape 577 PK- 1 Mr. Simmons: I wonder is the minister in a position now to indicate whether there are any further layoffs in the cards, he will appreciate that term, in the cards for the shipyard say in the foreseeable future, the next two to three months or so? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Industrial Development. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Well it is pretty difficult when you are dealing with the shipyard situation to be able to project definitively what the circumstances would be in terms of layoffs or employment.

The shipyard industry is always a fairly dramatically fluctuating situation as far as work force~ are concerned. We have already had a layoff of over 100 people which certainly we are not very happy about. We are doing our very best to encourage contracts to be placed with the shipyards to ensure a good work force, so that we will not lose our work force aa a result of - what would you call it?-the mobility of the work force to other areas.

There is quite an effort~being made to look at - we have had some work done with respect to the Board of Directors that will be in place early in the New Year, the hon. member might have heard this statement in recent days, and certainly there has been a tremendous effort by government to ensure that we do not have any displacement of the work force at that shipyard, a work force that we are very happy about. There is a tremendous amount of training and effort gone into this and we want to ensure the continuation of that force. }!R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR.

SIMMONS: A supplementary to the minister. Is he aware of any plan to lay off a substantial number of men at the shipyard, 100 or so men within the next month or so? Is he aware of any such plan or can he deny that there is such a proposal or can he bring us up to date on this matter? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Industrial Development. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Your Honour, I wonder is the hon. member in possession of information which should be shared with me and the department? 1459

December 12, 1975 Tape 577 PK- 2 Mr. __!:.undrigan: Obviously he is not asking a question just to be provocative and I would certainly appreciate it if he could be more specific :l.n giving this kind of a presentation to the Rouse. There is no specific present plan to lay off people at the yard. I indicated to the han. gentleman that there will always be fluctuations and if the work is not forthcoming at this point or another point or some other point you will get a change in the work force . If there is work coming on stream, of course, you will get an increase in the employment.

And other than making that general statement there is nothing of a specific nature, of a useful nature that I could add at the moment. And we are very anxious that the yard continues to have a good image, a good responsible presentation to the world community, and I hope that all hon. gentlemen share that kind of sentiment. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary; Mr.

Speaker, I understand the minister to say that there are no layoffs planned in his knowledge as a Director of the corporatio~ Can he then indicate whether the Marystown Shipyard has been successful in obtaining any new contracts for additional construction at the yard following the completion of the present shipyard? MR. LUNDRIGAN: I would like to clarify the point. I think I did make it clear that I did not indicate to the hon. member that at no point in the future there would not be an increase in employment or a decrease in employment. I did not indicate that. MR. SIMMONS: Oh, oh, oh! MR. LUNDRIGAN: Oh, oh!

No, Your Honour, I hope that the hon. gentleman is responsible enough to interpret that comment in the proper fashion. A.~ RON. MEMBF.R : Oh : MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: Is the minister responsible enough to give it in ~he proper fashion? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 1460

December 12, 1975 Tape 577 PK- 3 ~IR.. LUNDRIGAN: The minister, Your Honour, is going to try to be as responsible as he can, and I hope that the han. gentleman will exercise the proper restraint in his presentation or projections. In any event, Your Honour, there is no firm contract for the yari at the present moment beyond the new tug that will be constructed. And this I hope will improve and I hope in the coming year there will be work in place~ We have had Mr. John Rannie at the yard for a number of ~1eeks right now.

He will continue there until we get the new manager in place, who should have been here a week ago except for the complications in immigration which has delayed his comin~ on stream for a couple of week. Also, Sir, we have had a Mr. Stein from the Maryland Shipyards, a retired gentleman, a Newfoundlander, who served his lifetime in the business. MR. SM.ALLWOOD: Con Stein? --------- MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Stein a man that we have been very, very impressed with, who has been on site there - ~IR.. SM.ALLWOOD: r.ood! Good! MR.

LUNDRIGAN: -who has done an assessment of the capabilities and the new type of work that we must attract to the yards in view of the chant1ng ship building industry, He is making a ··report. We 'llre 1 ooking very positively at the shipyards, The future is good for the shipyards, It might not be tomorrow morning, it might not be next month, And we are restructuring our board to bring on stream people who have a background in the industry so that we can ensure that that yard will not only have continuation of a good work force but grmJth in the future. SOME HON. MEMBER: - --- 1461

December 12, 1975 Tape no. 578 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. HR. ROBERTS: ~r. Speaker, a question on the same subject, but a little different aspect of it~ would the minister lay upon the table of the House at an early date, Sir, the financial statements for the yard, for the most recent fiscal year which, I assume, was the year ended March 31 past? This is December, that is eight or nine months ago. They should be in the minister's hands by now. Would he undertake to lay them upon the table of the House very quickly, Sir? }m.

LUNDRIGAN: Your Honour, whatever responsibilities exist under the legislation in terms of having to provide documentation will be honoured by my department the same as they were by my predecessor, and as far as information which is of a nature that revolves around the internal operations of the shipyard in detail, if that is required, we can make it available. I do not think it is necessary for the House to have any kind of information other than what is required by any corporation to be presented to the Rouse by law. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question: I •cannot debate the minister's answer.

I would like to. I think he is arrogant and uninformative. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must call to the hon. gentleman's attention as I did previously in this sitting that any form of debate on the asking of questio~~ or the answering is quite out of order, and that the sort of political one-upmanship or any kind of one-upmanship should be saved for debate and not for the question period. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Your Honour. If I fell into the patn of temptation, 1 am grateful to Your Honour for bringing me back on the straight and narrow.

My question is: Could the minister indicate the size of the deficit incurred by the yard in the twelve months which ended on March 31, 1975? After. all we are the shareholders, Sirl? 1462

December 12, 1975 Tape no.578 Page 2 HR. LUNDRIGAN: I could give a general ballpark figure, Your Honour, but I am not completely knowledgeable as to the round figure, I can get the information, and as I said to the hon. gentleman earlier on, or his colleague to his left or perhaps to his right, the hon. gentleman and other gentlemen will be able to have whatever information is necessary when we debate our estimates and when we are required to make it available to the House by the regulations governing the shipyard incorporation. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, a question for the hon. Minister of Industrial Development, Sir, To the best of the minister's knowledge, could he indicate to the House the reason given in the letter of resignation, if there issucL a letter of resignation, the reason given by Hr. Millen for leaving his employment at the shipyard? HR. LUNDRIGAN: Your Honour, first of all I really appreciate the chance here to get my feet wet in the House. This is a great day for me, I was complaining yesterday about not having the opportunity. But in any event, Sir, I am looking forward to it. AN HON.

MEMBER: It is like the Great Big Sea Hove in Long Beach! MR. S}~LLWOOD: It landed in the Tory minister's feet. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Thank you. I am sure that is great. Thank you, Sir. I appreciate that. In any event, Your Honour, the fact of the matter is that we have in place new management at the shipyard. We are very happy with this. The question was about the reasons for the resignation and the letter that came from it. I think it is in the best interest of the shipyard that we not fight old battles, as the hon. gentleman from the area nods in agreement. We have had a new manager in place.

The hon. gentleman who did resign his position there did it to pursue his own ambitions and, of course, I think it is a responsible position of a government, responsible for the administration of the economy of the Province, that we not engage in trying to suggest that there is something remiss in government's responsibility or something amiss in the behaviour of an individual. We have a responsibility to 1463

December 12, 1975 Tape no. 578 Page Mr. Lundrigan: the people of Marystown and that shipyard to ensure that there is no public anomisity and expression of negative feeling }!R. :~EARY: Did he resign or did you fire him? MR.. LUNDRIGAN : - which could have hurt us in our efforts to attract new business to the shipyard. '1R. SPEAKER: The hon. membec for Twillingate. 3 HR. SMALLWlOD: !{r. Speaker, I know it has been pretty long-drawn­ out, but would the hon. minister tell me if this Conrad Stein - first of all what his function is at the shipyard?

Is he the Conard Stein who is the son, first of all, a Newfoundlander born, thP son of the famous F. Stein who helped to build a railway across Newfoundland and who was my old school chum at Bishop Feild College? What is his function, and when did he come? What is he doing? He is a famous shipbuilider in the United States, that I know. MR. LUNDRIGAIT: Well, Sir, I am not obviously able to give all the answers to the hon. gentleman's question. I think it is very interesting to hear the background that he has. I have had a sort of brief presentation to me on the background of the particular Newfoundlander.

He has had tremendous experience - MR. SMALLWOOD: In Baltimore or Philadelphia . MR. LUNDRIGAN: - in Maryland . MR . SMALLWOOD: In Baltimore. MR. LUNDRIGAN: referring - MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. LUNDRIGAN: Yes, in lfaryland shipyards, specifically. I am In Baltimore. In Baltimore. that he ended up his career in the shipbuilding business. He is retired now. He spends half his year down with the hon. gentleman. MR. S'-!ALLWOOD: MR. LUNDRIGAN: MR. SMALLWOOD: stays open too much. In Flordia? In Flordia. I do not spend half a year down there. This House 1464

necember 12, 1975 Tape no. 578 Page 4 - lllW -~· LUNDRIGAN: We are very anxious,Jike we are with the hon. member to have him back in Newfoundland expressing his energies for our people. He is doing an assessment from his own knowledge~ an independent look at the yard , to look at efficiencies, how we can modify our approach to attracting new business, because we are in a different kind of a period in t he shipbuilding industry than we were, say, three years ago when the trawler programmes in shipyards were of a greate r magnitude than they are today. '"IR. SHALLLHOOD: Who was smart enough to p,et it? Who got him? 1465

December 12, 1975 Tape 579 IB-1 ~"'. SPEAKER: HR. ROBF.P.TS: "n SPFAK'El': \fl', F, PQFE: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. I am sorry - Yy colleague. "'he hon. member for Trinity-llay de ~'erde. {rfr, F. !'owe) ?'r.

Speaker, I thank the House Leader for the answers to some of the quest:l .ons I asked previously. lvould the House Leader, Sir, indicate whAt these residences are for, whether they are for the r.olleRe of Trades 11nd Technology or the an:lticpated polytechnical inst:ltute~and where these residences will be established, whether it :1 s on the acquired land :f_n the area of the Trades and Technology and vrhen construction is likely to take place? 1~ .

SPRAKEP: The hon. ¥inister without Portfolio. ·~. lffiLLS: They are for the students in the College of Trades and Technolop;y and they '~ill be built over there behind thP college on land 11.>'hich \<CIS accuired, you know, within the past few months for that purpose. '·'hen they are ROfng to be actually constructed, that is so!T'eth:lnr; of course I CA.nnot tel 1 hecause the thing :Is not Rclvanced that f>"r. 1\ c'lec1s1on r-71.11 be rna(le as to what fund:lng iR going to be :In the estiMates for the C'.ominp: ffnancial year. "'1', l', rOWE: 1\ Rupplel"entary, ~>'r. Speaker.

Hould the minister jnr:lcate to the House, Sir., ,,rhat the status of the polytec.hnical :Institute is, whether preliminary plans have been drawn up or whether any cletaHed plans have been clrawn up and where is it expected that the polytechni cal :l. n~<t:!.tute ,,rill be situated, whether it will be close to the residence~< or not? t<r. !)'ELLS: I cannot give an answer to that at this time. It is not Rdvtmced far enough for that yet. ~r . f. n.or-w. : A supp]ementa.ry. Mr.

Speaker, is the minister fndicating that no act:lnn is tak:lnp. 'place on the polytechnical institute because of - }'1' • SPEAKE" : Order, plee~se! Hr> NEAT'Y: T wou] d consj r1er that question :In a for111 of !lebate. The hon. member for LaP oil e (}'r. Neary) • l'r. Speaker, T>Tnuld the hon. the Premier care to clarify to the House, S:lr, a statement made outside the House in connection 1466

DeeernbP.r 17, 1975 ~'!l. NEAnY: 'l'ape 579 IB-2 Fi.th the paper worJ.:ers str:ll<e, that they 1-muld be forced back to work under certn:ln d~rCUI'l!"tance!'l? I•Jould the Premier care to clarify or elahorate on that statement? PREMIER NOOt>Ef : F:l. rst of all, )'!r. Speaker, no such statement l·•as certainly l"ade hy myself.

T·./hat I d:l.d say rep;ard.inF; the paper makers strike at the present time was that we were waiting to see the result of the Anti-inflation ~eview Hoard's decision on the Irving contract settlement in Ne•,;r Rntnsw:lck because it has always been the pattern in Eastern r:anad11. th1lt from Ontario east at least there has been a very dJf:lnite and identifiable pattern between the various mills and the 'Tar:lous unions.

Now, the situation is once the Anti-inflation Board has macle their position clear regarding that particular contract, I tllink it is our dnty M 1! government to get together w:lth the tmion leaders and the companies to see if there is not something we can do to try to bring an end to this particular strike. MR. SPEAKE?: TI1e hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). }m. NF.A~Y: Mr. Speaker, would the 'Minister of Fisheries care to clear up an incorrect answer that he gave me to a question yesterday :In connection ~·:lth John Leckie, a stop-payment on a bill submitted hy John Leckie a~nd Company for ~35,000?

The question to the minister was, are there any more b:l]ls of this nature, how many, and is this the subject of a poUce investigation. ~'fll • S'PF.AKF.l'! : The hon. Minister of Fisheries. ~. rAPTEP: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of having misled the House edther w:ltti.ng]y or unwittingly on this matter. I did tell the House that the aecounts covering gear replacement under the federal-provincial 1974 gear replacement programme had been fro?.en by the department pending the outcome o~ an :Investigation that is now underway.

I told the House too that the department had rejected a statement from John Leckie T~imiteil for $35,000 to cover a two- dollar-a-pound subs:ldy that was being given by the department on 17,000 pounds of twine, a two- dollar~ a.-pound suhsidy on twine that was being made available by 1467

Oecember 12, 1975 ''". f'.ARTf.P: Tape 579 TB-3 thP rrovincial povernment at the time. The claim was rejected on the h-'li:e of :Information that we received to the extent that Leckie's wer<" selling the twine off at a much reduced price. Despite the fact that they were doin~ that , they still char~ed a two-dollar-a rountl suh~:icly for the tvine. That is the basis on which the invoice >'<IS rejectec:l , ancl I l'l:lght and suhsequently ~dthdrawn by that company. A surrlell'entary question.

Hc>ulcl the minister inform the !lotos£> j f hf' h1111 :Instruc ted h:l.s accountants or the officials of his clernrtment to po back over old invoi ce s of John Leckie and Co~pany to Sf'e if there were si~ilar bills sent to the government and pa:ld to 1-'essrs. T.ccki e ;md ro.,rany? Ts the minister :lnvest i~tating that aspect of :It? 1468

ne~emher 12 , 197 5 Tape No. 580 m1- 1 ·w, S PF.AKER: Th£> hon. !"inis ter of Fi.sheries. ~~ n rAP.TEft: - - " r. Speaker, I am sure that the officials of my department nrr checking very thoroughly statements cominP in from any fishing o:cnr sup!'lv companv and the fact that this parti.cular one was detected proves that they are keepinr- a pretty close eye on what is happening ~o~lth respect to invoices, bills ccming in from fish gear supply companies for pavment under the bounty programme. ~R. ~~R2:_:_ ~lr. Speaker, I lvould like to direct a question to the ~~inister of Tourism, Sir.

Would the Minister of Tourism indicate to the House 1-rh"t acticm h:f~ povernment have taken on a promise that was made to NlVr :md provide lvater and sewera!!:e in an area called North Pond II<' I r,hts Traile-r Park in the tiunicipality of Torbay? ' fl'. ST'EAKJ\Tl : ThP hon. Minister of Tourism. NT!. IH C:KEJ .: )<r.

Speeker, I am certainly prepared to answer it. 1t is not a m;~tter "hi.ch is under my department but there was a promise nmdP tn those peonle for •va ter and sewer, and tenders were called ;mel •·•Prf' ahout to he awarded until the Prime ~:lnister announced his ~nti-1nf1,.tionarv nro!!:ramme,with which the Province co-operated 1 and thi " proiP.ct amonp, others were deferred, So as soon as those projects cnmP hack on the rail I am sure that one will be attended to.

With r£>r,nrd to the rond, I indicated to the people that the road would be raved " ' '' no.-, ,, : '·• cl• ·v-: · ''11''"' •"" 1 ' !, ,, Town Council ~ot to~Pther and dPtf'rmined ~-!hn fn fact mmed the road. It is half public and half nrivatf', ohviously "-'C cannot pave a road which is private. ' '!~ NEA_~_l: ~'r.

Speaker, T have a question for the hon. the Premier, Sir. '·loulcl the hon. thP- 'Premier, Sir- and this is in connection with ''arvRtot vn llgain- •Jould the hon. the Premier indicate to the 'House if in >'av of thIs V£>ar hP made a statement to the .1oint tmm councils on the Burin T'enln!<u]a that the shipvards l•m.s the best managed in Canada and if the Pn~miPr made 1<uch a statement why did they accept the resignation of "r. ~ ·illen or ~1hy waR Mr. Millen's services terminated? 1469

necemhPr 12, 1975 Tape No. 580 ID1 - 2 "" SPF.A.Kf'll: The han. thP Premier. ------- PRP! l£R MOORES: ~r. Speaker, I have undoubtedly said that the sh hw,rrl was - T nrohah l v said one of the best managed in Canada. ThP varrl h as done except .i.onally good work. The workmanship there is. goo<'t. The !'l-~nar.ei11E'nt,which includes,of course,foremen, superintendents, pronle 1 il:P th"t is ;tl s o good as far as we are led to belf.eve. As far as Mr, tli llen is conc-erned T think it iR probably fair to say, Mr.

Speakr, th 11 t the r.are<'r of t' r. :' illen is not unlike that from the member for L.:l.Poile in tlv'lt he probably saw that :In the best interest of his conl'ltituents and going to gn•ener pastures was the right thinp; to do. '~. SPFAKEP: ThP. hnn. member for Windsor-Buchans. _}~~FLlC:!!:!_:_ '-'r. Speaker, 1 direct this question to the Premier.

And it is with regards to the answer he just gave the hon. member for T. aPoile with regard to the situation in the paper industry, is the Premier aware- I am not aware and this may appear to be a stupid quPstion , hut T am very concerned about what is going on in Central :'<eHfounrlland - is th e ' r,...m:i r a1vare that the Irving settlement is indeed under review hy the Federal Wage and Price Control Board and has he got C~nv l.d e 11 or iR th .-re anv of determining when a ruling will be forthcoming? PRF.MIFD H('IORES: As I understand it, Mr.

Speaker, I thought I made that dear th"t we were awaiting that ruling and that it is before the Board. Thr situ,.tlon as T am led to believe is that we can expect a ruling either late this ·~eek:.•~hich is today,or early next •~eek. ''R. SPF:AKFP: The> han. Leader of the Opposition. ~I V., ROBERTS: A question for the ~inister·of Health.

Has the minister 11e en in touch with the P.n,, r<'! r. r ch <' ·~ aterfor r1 HoRpi t"l anrl •~ith the author i til's operating the other institut:lons,which I believe are all nperated h y the various departm ents of p;overnment,in respect of the situation which mlght occur - n r will " ~ ""' ' • f ~~" Hlsh -assuming the NAPE units involved go ahead and do strike! ~~ ~. SPEAKER: The hon. :Minister of Health. !'R. COLLINS: }fr. Speaker, I have nothing further to add to what I gave in th e Hon,-;e a couple of days ago that we are in constant touch with the 1470

nccemhrr 12, J~7S Tape No. 580 NM - 3 ·~~· . COI.LINS :_ Board, Of course ,the wholt> matter 'loJhich the bon . member r"fc>rl' to falls unrlet: the jut:isdj_ction of Treasury lloard. ~~R . RO~ ~r .

Speaker , a supplementary , I am not asking these qu ~~t ions 'loJhich relate to Treasury Board, I thank the minister for his an~er. w 1 have a fur ther supplementary quest i on on this; can the mln1ster assure us that there is a contingency plan ready to cope with t~P situa tion which would arise if in fact a strike does go ahead? 1 am referring,of course ,to Waterford Hospital to which he answer s to the Roul'e, SJ r. ' fR . CO~l;.~ ~lr. Speaker , that particular hospital is operated by a ~oard and have (>very confidence j_n that ! oard to take whatevet: precautions are necessary . 'IR.

ROBf.llTS: Rut hn~ he been in touch with them on this? w. . SPF.AKY.R: ~e hon . memher for LaPoile. NR._!'lEARY: ttr. Spenkc r, I would like to get back to the hon. the Premier here , Sfr . 1471

December 12, 1975 Tape 581 PK - 1 MR._NEARY: Would the hon. Premier indicate to the House if Hr. Millen's service was terminated to go back to look after his constituents or if he submitted - MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: - a letter of resignation? And if so, Order, please! MR. NF~RY: which constituency - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: - is he gone to look after? SOMF: HON . MF.l>IRF.RS: Oh, oh~ }lR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

If my memory is correct~and it is not over a very long period of time,! recall that question has been asked in perhaps different forms and with a different introduction but certainly essentially the same question several times and it is not allowed to repeat a question in a different form on a continuing basis. So that being the case I have to rule the hon. gentleman's question out of order. MR. NEARY: Well I will rephrase the question then, Mr. Speaker, by asking the hon . Premier to which constituents he referred to in his answer he gave me a few moments ago that Mr. Millen was looking after? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Premier Moores. PREMIER MOORES: I was suggesting, Mr. Speaker, that his interest being the same as the member;' s from LaPoile }s that in the best interest of his constituents from where he was working and were the member was elected 1 he moved to greener pastures were success would be more available, and that is all I am going to say about it at this time. MP. NF.ARY~ Where? Where did he move to? PREMIER MOORES: I have no idea. Where do you go when you go? MR. NEARY: You know where I went - HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir.

I shall point out that this will be the last question and the last answer. MR . SIMMONS: Nr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health (Mr. H. Collins). I wonder whether he would indicate to the 1472

December 12, 1975 Tape 581 PK- 2 Hr. Simmons: --- - - - \louse whether there are any planned layoffs in any of the cottage hospitals, and in particular the Burin Cottage Hospital? MR._gF~ The hon. Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: No ,not to my knowledge, }!r. Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY Order 11. MR . SPEAKER : Order 11. Motion second reading of a bill, ''An Act Further To Amend The Hinimum Wage Act." (Bill No. 11) . If the hon. minister speaks now he closes the debate. The hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. RON. E. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, just a few words to close off the debate on this hill.

The debate that went on yesterday afternoon was fairly '~ide ranging. In many cases ,although it was interesting, the comments were not related to the bill as such, so I do not plan to go over that in any detail. I think there are a couple of misconceptions and this is apparent from the comments of hon. members who did speak on it. Some hon. members first of all kept referring to the bill raising the minimum wage. The bill does not raise the minimum wage, that is a function that is carried out by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council under the present act.

All this bill does is empower the Lieutenant-Governor in Council to provide for a different formula for overtime rates and a formula for basic call-in pay which we determine we will fix at three hours if a person is called to work for any reason. I know that we will get screams from the trade union movement that '~e have not gone far enough . But I think this is as far as we can go at this particular point in time. We are bringing the minimum wage up to close to the national average,if not at the national average. Our minimum wage bill is comparable to anything else in r.anada.

We are later on this year going to bring in another bill relating to all labour standards. This will be more encompassing and will be a good piece of legislation. 1473

December 12 , 1975 Tape 581 PK- 3 Mr, Maynard: We cannot go ~p to the amo~nt of $4.00 per l:).our which was suggested by the trade union movement, It is going to take some time for us to get uP there although I suppose 1!\rentually with inflation and all this sort of thing we will get there. But I agree fn that regard with the comments of the bon. member' from LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) that the trade union movement should really get out and organize the bulk of the people who are unorganized in this Province,and should get the wage rates up in that manner through collective bargaining, as opposed to having to depend on government to raise the minimUm wage and thereby up the salaries of a lot of people in this Province. It is unfortunate that so many employers in this Province consider the· mini11!1lm wage $2.20 or $2.50 or whatever the case might be as the wage inStead of ccmsidering 1474

neeember 12, 1975 Tape No. 582 NM - 1 "1R. ~AYNARn: it as a minimum wage. I would like to appeal to employers to look at the minimum wage for what it is, a bare, basic minimum and to try to look at their employees as something more than people who are there for the sake of filling up a chair or a position and try to pay them the wages that they really earn in their work place.

I say again it is unfortunate that so many employers will take the $2.50 an hour as of January 1, and that is all that they will pay and they will try to convince their employees that that is all they need to pay and the government has legislated that amount. But that is the situation in which we operate and I suppose it will go on for some time but I hope that in time employers will change from that particular attitude.

I hope the trade uaions will also change from the present attitude regarding minimum wage and labour standards whereby they ask government to do everything and I do not think it should be government's responsibility to bring all the benefits to the labour force in Newfoundland. All we can do is set the basic minimums and hope that employers and the trade unions will bring up the level of remuneration to the work force in another manner. That is about all that I can say on this bill, Mr. Speaker.

If there is anything further in committee stage that bon. members would like to question I would be very happy to answer the questions that are raised. On motion a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Minimum Wage Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS: MR. SfEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I am not quite sure about how much time I have left 11'nv T undf'rstaT'.cl T h"ve r.n ti.me ]eft. lly le~tve nf the House, ~lr.

Speaker, T would request two or three minutes just to trv to summarize the points that T 'nts try1 np; to make. l"lt. SPEAKF.R: noes the hon. gentleman have leave to continue? MR. ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Sir, the other night I attempted to build a case in support of the amendment that we deeply regret the failure of the government to disclose completely and fully the present 1475

~ cce mb er 12, 1QiS Tape No. 582 NM - 2 M'P. ROI~: fi~ancial situation of ' this Province. And Sir, I also gave a number of examples where the aqlidnistration in the months and year ·s and i mmediate days previa~~ to the election painted a somewhat glorious picture and raised the expectations of our people with regard to the resource development of this Province and the provis .ion of the social and public services with respect to the employment situation and indeed the very financia1 stability of the province, Sir, and after the electiort '"'e got the full truth in that re·spect.

And Sir, we are deeply saddened,and ~Te take very strong exception to the methodology, the method . by which the gove:r;nm~nt or the acbldnistration went about raisin~ the expectations of the people previous to this election, Sir, and I think the bon. Minister of Mines and Energy went further than anybody in this debate so far in 111eeting the request of this amendment. <'n 'or~unntP l y, Sir, the tillle factor w.as a little out of place.

It is now that we get the full admission of the magnitude of the financial problem facing this Province, Sir, and I sincerely hope, Sir, and I was about to make this point when I rsn out of time an Thursday night, I sincerely hope that the Prl!'mi.e!' and the Minister of Mines and Energy and indeed the Minister of Finance are not 1476

necember 12, 1975 Tape 583 IB-1 }'T'. rmm: tryinp: to eJT!p]ov or use political psycholop:y in this part:l.cular instance, that they are try:ing to paint a very bleak picture, a very dismal picture so that in a year or two's time the people, you know, will say wPJ1 it 1s not so bad after all. I hope that they are not trying to use that k:lnc'! of method. Bec;~use I •'as about to make thP. point the other night - and for some strange reason we had a point of order on it - that the Premier :Is a very astute politician.

But we have reason to question the wisdom of the Premier with respect to administering this Province. Sir, I t.•il1 !'<:Imply end by saying that we are extremely saddened that the governMent f:lnd themselves in the position that they find themselves ln at the present time, and :It is R position of their own making. T'nfortnnately the people of the Province are the ones to suffer. Sir, we are not asking the people to forgive the administrat:l.on.

We are s:lmpJy asking hon. members in this House to have patience, the people of the Province to have patience,hang in there, Sir, because they simply do not know ••hat they do, Sir, in this particula .r instance. I al'l 1•70ndering :If the admini.strat:lo!! is capable at all of handling the difficult problem, f:lnanc:lal problem that is a creation of their own making. Thank you, Sir. VR. SPF.AKER: The hon. l .ead.er of the Opposition. )'T'. T!.OBF.F.TS: ''r. Speaker, the motion before the Rouse is an amendment moved hy my fr:lend and colleague, the member for Burgeo-Bay D'Espoir (~r.

Si~ns). ~'Y friend and coJleague, the gentleman from Tr:l.nity-Bay de Verde (Mr. F. rowe) ;ust referred to. it but perhaps I might be allowed to read :It so that we are at ]east all of one mind as to precisely what we are dehatinp and what "~11 come to a vote shortly. The motion, as J: understand it, the amendment, Hr. Speaker, is that the budget not:l.on, the motion now before the Rouse, that we fO into a f'ommi ttee on "'ays and }leans, that that motion be amended bv strivinr. everything after the word 'that' and adding the following word!'< in place of it.

Those words would be," tM s House regrets the failure of the ~overnment to disclose completely and fully the present financial situation of this Province and the government thereof." 1477

ne cPmrer 12, 1975 l'"P. l'llBF. rTS: Tape 5R3 IB-2 tloP, <-'E' hl've hearcl some magn:l ficant performances, 'llr. Speaker, "~" hon. r,ent1 ewen on the other side of the !louse and on this side of the JlnuRe trieil somP.hnw to escape from the thrust and the force of that amendment. I no not think anyhody on the other side wiJl vote for it. T rer;ret very ll'uch tlutt there are some on this sicle of the House sittinr; to your right, ~'r. Speaker, who also have :lnnicated that they Rre not p.oinr to vote for it. They have given their reasons and they speak for themselves .<~nd sobei t.

The amendment, Sir, really quite simply says that the rovernrnent h.<~ve not come clean. I think that the speech made by my hon. fdencl frol'l llnrpeo-l\"y n'r:spoir 0'r. Simmons) "'as a very, very fine speech indeecl. I think he wade his case awply. I for one intend to support the Rmendm.ent and I kn0<7 that each of my colleagues in the official Opposition aJ.so intend to support it.

We believe-and I have 11stened to most of the argtments aclvanced, I have listened to some a"•fnJ 1 v •olin ely and twisty thoughts put fonrard - but we believe, ~ir, that thf> g-overnMent have not r,iven us a full and a frank and a complete f:lnanciaJ statement or a statement of the financial picture affecting this l'rov:lnce 2nn the government thereof. •·le th:l .nk that the ~inister of Finance cloes not deserve the confidence of this House in respect to the budget which he delivered here on the 24th clay of November. So, I am p.oing to vote for the amendment.

So are all of my colJear,ues on this side, and we are goinp. to vote for it because we think the case is l••elJ made and truly made and has not been answered. Nnw, Yr. Speaker, this debate began, this debate has been around the hnc1p.et T..:rhich the ~':lnister of Finance, the hon. ~entleman from Harhour ~ ·'a :In-Bell Island (Mr, Tloody), brought into the House about three '''"ekf' ap,o. ct '''as a ne"' huclget. It vas a Fall budget. H'e are roJ<1 - ~nd I helieve this to he a correct statement - that it i.s the only Fa.lJ huclRet si.nce r.onfederation.

It :Is the only til'!e in the t<Jenty-six years th:ls Province has been a Province, that we have 1478

December 12, 1975 'lr. Roher ts. Tape no. 584 Page 1 - mw had more than one budget in a year. That was put forward, I believe, by one of the hon. Rentlemen on the other side. I made a note of the statement, but I did not note the han. gentleman's name,or an indication,so I cannot identify him any more precisely, but it was put forward,in any event,as if it were somehow a claim of pride, as if somehow the government had done something good by bringing in a second budgetary statement in the current financial year, the current fiscal year.

Well, Sir, whatever the reasons why this budget was brought in, and I will have a few words to say what I think them to be, what I believe them to be, they certainly are not reasons in which the government of this Province can take any pride. I believe that the reason why the Minister of Finance brouRht in his budRet was that the budget statement which was submitted in the House last March, I believe by the then Minister of Fj.nance, Mr. H. 1.'. R.

Earle, who met the fate he deserved at the hand of the electorate, although he did not accept that, the budget statement submitted on March 12, 1975 was not intended to be and was not in fact anything like a financial statement of the affairs of this Province for the twelve months beginning on April 1, 1975, the current financial year. I believe that the budget which we now have was intended all along to be brought in after the election.

I have to be careful, Sir, and use words that I believe to be parliamentary, and there have certainly been a great number of rulings about words that are not parliamentary, and I shall. try to refrain from using any of those words. But I believe that this budget stat~ent, which the han. Minister of Finance brought in, was intended all along to be the companion piece to the one which the then Minister of Finance, Mr. Earle, brought in March past. In other words, Mr. Speaker, I think that the budget which was brought in in March past was not intended to be a budget for the year.

It was intended rather as a document which would somehow enable the government to skate past the election,which they believed was coming, which some of them may have known was coming, and which in fact did come. 1479

December 12, 1975 Tape no. 584 Page 2 Mr. Roberts. That in itself, Sir, I think is a sad enough thing. I believe it is the first tim e in the history not just of this Province, but of this country. This House of Assembly, Mr. Speaker, first sat in 1832, and it has sat every year since then, with the exception of the fifteen years between the time when the House voted itself out of existence in February, 1934- a Tory Government then,I might add, too - until the Province became a Province in 1949 and the House met, I believe, in June or July or August of 1949. The hon. gentleman from Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) would remember as would the hon. gentleman from Burin - Placentia West ~r. Canning) because each of them was a member of that General Assembly. I believe this is the first time we have ever had a budget brought in, in all of the years there have been budgets and even ' during the years when there was no House, Mr. Speaker, there was a budget speech, as I recall it.

I have been told that whoever was the Commissioner for Finance, an Englishman, as I recall it­ they would not let a Newfoundlander hold that jo~-would go down to the Newfoundland Hotel at some place, before a meeting of the Board of Trade, and would read a budget speech. There would be a budget speech each year. I do not know if anybody here recalls it. The Minister of Fisheries is nodding. Is that what was done? MR. CARTER: Yes. MR. ROBERTS: The Commissioner of Finance would go and make a budget. There is a budget speech every single year. This is the first year we have ever had two.

I think the government of this Province, Sir, the hon. gentlemen opposite,set out to try to hoax the Province, The statement which the han. gentleman, the then Minister of Finance, Mr. Earle, brought in in March was not intended to be the budget for the year. I think that is now obvious. It was intended 1480

!I December 12, 1975 Tape no. 584 Page Mr. Robert~. only to enable the gove~ent to skate through the election campaign and somehow to try to fool the peorle. Well , Sir , 3- mw they may have fooled the people. They got re-elected, whether or not beca~qe the people were fooled or not is a matter which one C3n argue . They did get re-elected . They mav have fooled the reorle. Rut there is a very old and ver y wise saying in N<>~JfouncU;~ncl , "'But fool me once, shame on you; but fool me twice , shame on me." This government may have fooled the people C>f NewfoundlAnd once. They 1~111 not fool them a second time .

Now, Mr. Sreake r, the ~inister of rinan~e himself hns admitted the tru t h of what I am say in~. He stands convicted, on his own evidence, on the words in his own budget , 1481

nece~her 12, 1975 Tape 585 IR-1 ~'1'. "OHrrrs : The verv first openinf! words, ~~r. Speaker, of the budget speech which the minister rean in the House. I will rea~ it right from the point ,.,l,ere he sa:tn, ~~r. Speal-er 1 it begins, "On October 10, 1975 in annition to being president of Treasury Board, I took on the added portfolio of }'in:!ster of Finance. Having already held the Treasury Board portfolio for more than a year, I was completely aware of the fjnanclaJ situation facinp. the Province ann the neen to put together a revi secl flnanc1 nl plan.

Just six wee~s after assuming my new duties it coroes as no great surprise to be presentinp; an interim 1975 Fall bu~get: 1 Jle then launches into the speech. Pell no"' what the minister there snys, l"r. Speaker, is that on the 10th nay of October he had lonr been aware - I do not ••<mt to Tl':! R<Juote hiro, he may not have used the wor~ 'long'- he •ras c-ompletely a<-'are of the financ i al situation facing the Province, an~ he <viiS eCTna·J ly aware of the neefl to put together a rev:! sed financial pl:.m. NoH, T want to kno•' when the. minister became aware of that, Sir.

Din he hecome aware of it - he became aware of it before he was l"inister of l':!n)lnce. Re tole! us that. He was president of the Treasury Board. h7hen <lin he hecome a.w<tre of :l. t~ 1·1as it last }' arch when ~'r. Earle, the then Fimmce Yin:!ster, brought in the budget speech? Was the present Nin:!ster of Finance who was then presiclent of the TreaEOury BoRrd Dt that tiT!Ie IIHI!re? Or was it later? When did this great revelation come to him? Has it, as somebody has suggested, at eigl 1t fifteen in the evenlng of Thursday, the 16th day of September 1n the year of Our Lord, 1975? Or •'as it before that?

The hon. gentleman from Kilbride (Mr. Hells), the Rouse Leader, han been p-oing around the Province and portions thereof cluring the Stunmer period makinp, speeches which were reported in the ne~~spapers <IS h:winp sf!icl :!.n effer.t, we cannot J!O on as we are. vie cannot afford to (lo •rh:~ t Fe are attel'1ptinr; to no. We cannot financially carry on. l·)eJ J then if the Minister without Portfolio who was then, I believe, the '':lnister of Health at that point in time, if he knew it in the Summer, d:lcl the "inister of Finance know it'l I think he did. I think 1482

December 12, 1975 tiT', P.OBI\RTS: Tape 585 IB-2 that this i.s the shabbiest display I have ever seen any government put on or I have ever heard of any !(OVernment putting on. The Tliefenbaker administration in 0ttawa, Hr. Speaker, one year •'ent an entire t\velve months without ever getting supply, without ever petting supply! They carried on for the full twelve months on a procedure known as Governor !Ceneral 's warrants.

There ~·as no bndget. !hat I ,.,ar! ah;ays thought was the shabbiest record of any government. nut, Sir, this arlministation here has reached a new low in its lack of candor and its lack of presenting the truth and the facts to the people of this Province. I sub111it, tlr. Speaker, there was nothing at all in the budget speech brought in the other day by the Jl'ini.ster of Finance, nothing of any important substance of which he "as not or ought not to have been 11ware 1vhen Mr, Earle brought in his hurlget i.n March of 1975, eight or nine months ago.

It is a serious ch11rge, Si_r, but I make it because J believe it to be true, That in itself, ~lr. Speaker, is enough to convince me to vote for this amend!ren t . This government have not been honest. They have not made public all the facts, and they still have not done it. Let me mention now another matter where they have been less than forthcoming and less than canc1:1 c1. The Rural Development Authority, the great Pural Development Authodty, in too many ways, Sir, a fraud.

I am. not saying a criminal frauCI hut a fraud :l.n that the hopes of many people were invested in that anCI they have been shattered and destroyed and disillusionment h11s set in. Two or thre.e years ago ~tten the late me111ber for Trin:lty South, !'r. James 1'eid, was a me.mher of the aCiministration, before he met his co111e-uppance at the hands of the electorate in his constituency, he tab-] eCI as the Hintster of Rural Development a list of the loans which haCI hepn made by the rural Tlevelopment Authority. Since then the government have consistently and constantly refused to make public any upCiated lists.

Now, why? v~y? It may be said that we in the Opposition crit:l.cizecl some of the loans, and certainly ~·e did and 1483

n<' cemher 1?., 1975 "~'· Pf'JlFr>TS: Tape 585 F:n Pe F<houlcl have hecause it revealed, that list revealed that IB-3 aMonr the Pural neveloprnent projects for which loans hacl been marle - I suspect, 1484

December 12, 1975 Tape No. 586 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: Sir, the Auditor General will pick this up and so he should because I think it is without the ambit of the Act,that thPse loans are probably unlawful under the Rural Development Authority l et - hut amon g thP purpo~<es for which the rural development loans were made were such great rural development projects as mortuaries, new~<papers and other projects which are anything but rural development, whatever they may or may not be.

Also, of course, in that list there appeared the names of three gentlemen, each of whom had contested an election in 1971 or 1972 as a Tory candidate. ·\ ~d ~;e criticized that, We said,what right have they to get loans,because some of them were of dubious probity. The hon. member for I.aPoile 1 as he now is, criticized rightly the fact that his opponent, ~r. Bernard Fitzpatrick had been given loans,t believe $15,000 or $20,000,for projects on Bell Island, even though ~lr.

Fitzpatrick was resident at the time and for all I know still :f.s in St . .John's. >r)l, ~F.ARY: He is o v <'r on Bell Island. ~<n PCJBF.RTS: Ts he on Bell Island now? I thank the hon. gentleman. Hr.. NEARY : Excuse me, he got a loan from the Rural Development Authority for ~7 ,500 1 thin k it \vas for greenhouses~ and then ~·ent to the Newfoundland Farm Products and got a loan to buy some farming equipment. }ffi. ROBERTS: I thank the hon. gentleman, I guess that was a question, '!''r. Speaker, and T thank him for the question.

I thought it was a good question and it contained some information of which the House should be aware .. So why "'ill they not table it no1v? All they will .say is that you are attacking individuals. The only names were mentioned were three Tory cand:l dates' m.•n wr.o l-pfo-re thPy \Vent tn th ... R•Hal nevelo11ment: Aut:hori tv ha~ already in~<Prted them~elves in the public eye and they were not attacked in any way. The governliiPnt were criticized for makinl!; loans to those three,and so they should have been, and so they were and so thev 1Jould he aga:fn.

Rut the government will not make public - a cover - "P ~ 1·.'hn t an' t loP·; 1d olin~~; '! Are they hiding the complete failure of 1485

0Pcemher 12, 1975 Tape No. 586 NM- 2 '·IT:. ROBERTS: the programme? Are they? Are thev hidinR pay-offs or injudicious loans to friends and allies. I do not know. Nobody in NeHfound 1 and knows. All we know is that we are lashing out money that '~e, the people of Newfoundland, are lashing out money and there is no accountability for it. The present Minister of Rural Development who is new, new to this positi0n, new to elective ministerial office,should come clean. He should lay all his cards upon the table face up.And he does not have to answer for it except in the Parliamentary sense.

He was not the minister concerned. r,ut what are the government trying to hide1 Why will they not come clean? Because if they do not make that list public, Mr. Speaker, then many fair-minded people, most fair-minded people will conclude the government are trying to hide something. It is another instance where there is what appears to be a cover-up 1 and merely saying that some names were mentioned is not a defence at all. People who get loans from the publ:l .c, who get loans froll' the public chest, should not mind in the least if their names are mentioned in a fair and an honourable way.

And they were and they should have been and they would be again. Now let us look at another point in the Budget Speech of the minister '~here T submit the government have not cornr .clean. And I talk about the projected yields from the tax papers, from the tax sources. Our tax sources as the government of a Province are quite limited, very limited. It is not a difficult art for the gentleman in the finance Department or the Treasury Board, wherever that function is now located, to ~ake public, to give the minister in preparing his budget accurate forecasts, accurate forecasts of what the revenues will be.

I will come in a moment to talk about equalization. I cannot call it a deliberate falsification but if I could I would. Because I think, ~1r. Speaker, that the way in which this Budget Speech was put together on that head is very disturbing indeed. But even now let us just look at the projected tax yields on some of our tax sources, The retail 1486

n~ccmber 12, 1Q75 Tape No. 586 ~ - 3 ~111. ROSF.RTS: sales tax: ~'Y friend, the member for Butgcn -"Ray d ' "sro i r . dc~lt with t ht~ tn some considerable detail and 1 do not propose to repeat t~~t. 1 do wish to refer to them heca~~e I think it sho1·111 lll\111n 14h~ this amendment should be carried. It shows a~ain that this 1\0Vernment h~ve not come clean . nc tail ~ales tax , the original estimates for 1975-76 1487

December 12, 1975 Tape 587 PK - 1 Mr. Roberts : sr1ould a budget, an income, an estimated income from that head of revenue of $107.6 millio~s. The revised estimates show $126.8 millions. Now that is fair enough, Sir, it could be said there has been a tax increase. And there has been.

It is the fifth or sixth or seventh tax increase since the hon. gentleman opposite assumed office,But there was a tax increase, The rate has been increased ' by this House over the votes of everybody on this side, but the government had the majority and so they carried the day, increased by 25 per cent,from eight cents on the dollar to ten cents on the dollar. And that tax is now in effect. If Your Honour goes out to buy a hull's eye 1or at least to buy twenty cents worth of hull's eyes,on Your Honour's way to Your Honour's home tonight Your Honour will have to pay ten per cent towards the government as a tax.

It started as 3 per cent many years ago, then it went to S per cent, then it went to 6 per cent, then it went to 7 per cent, then it went to 8 per cent and that is now 10 per cent. Now is that figure accurate, Sir? The government were projecting a 27 per cent increase in the tax yields, and yet their own information, their own flash sheets which come flashing out from the priorities and planning department downstairs show only an 11.7 per cent increase in rettil sales. It leads one to question, Mr. Speaker. If this were a cookbook it would be a very bad cookboo~ indeed.

Even the economic - not even the figures are consistent, The government's economic outlook showed a projected increase of 13.0 per cent in the retail sales. And the retail sales tax, Mr. Speaker, is related directly to retail sales. It is the clearest and most easily understandable of all our taxes, It is a straight percentage of retail sales in the Province, So how do they explain, Sir? Was the budget accurate in March? If so, how do they explain that discrepancy. Let us look at another one, Sir, another of the important tax sources for this Province, the personnal income tax, a very big yield.

It was originally projected for this year, it is here on the books, at $86 million, $86.2 million. The revised 1488

December 12, 1975 Tape 587 PK - 2 Mr. Roberts: estimates show it at being $89 million with a very, very small tax increase, very small, one point for half the year on forty, is it? I have not got it calculated out, but it is about that. Maybe it is less than 1 per cent of the tax yields. During the last fiscal year the government's revenues from the personnal income tax amounted to $60.5 million. The figure before us now is a 47 per cent increase, $60.5 millions to $89 millions. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is a phenomenal rate of increase.

The increase in personnal income is only marginally above the rate of inflation, and that is about 11.2 per cent, so let us call the increase in personnal income about 12 per cent. Now how do the government explain this? I am not saying they cannot explain it. Maybe there is an explanation. Rut I am saying that the financial advisers to whom I have spoken are unable to understand it. Now the minister- I regret he is not here today, I understand he is in Ottawa about Her Majesty's business-the minister can solve this quite easily because, Mr.

Speaker, that figure in the estimates, in the budget is not plucked out of thin air, it is not even made up by the officials here, That figure, Sir, is sent to us by the Government of Can.ada, because we do not collect an income tax in this Province. \'" impose one, but we do not collect it. The tax is collected by the Government of Canada, by the Department of National Revenue of Canada, by the hon. Hr. Bud Cullen and his officials, They collect our tax, lt is a percentage of the federal tax, the same in every province across Canada with the exception of Quebec which imposes its own tax and collects its own tax.

Every province imposes its own tax but only Quebec collects on its own, The other provinces collect by Ottawa. So Ottawa each year send a note off tp the Minister of Finance or the Provincial Treasurer,or whatever he is called,to the provinces, and it says something like, Dear Minister·• or Dear Treasurer our mandarins ~ave laboured and we now 1489

necember 12, 1975 >'T', 1>.0!31\'PTS: Tape 5fl8 te11 you that the y:le]cl from your personal income tax next year IB-1 wi.l J be so Mllny Mi.ll ion dollars. That is the fi~ure which the Vini ster of finance should take and put in his_ hudf!.et. Now, they are a little more sophi.sticated than that. They give you, ~•r. Speaker, an upper rcmr~ anc1 11 lower rnnRe and a likely r11nge. (1f cour,.e, we as a Province or the government of the Province have to notify Ottawa e11ch year hv the 1st of Januilry of any changes in the tax rates.

That i.s so that they can calcul llte the returns ~tnd so they can prepare the coUection mechanisms. So, the 111inister can explain quite simply why the yield from persona] income tax has p,one from $60.5 million to $89 million hy tabling the letter from nttawa. There is nothing secret about it. It mip.ht have heen secret R year ago. It does not matter a hoot no'"· I.et him Make H public; If Ottawa said $89 milHons or $86.2111 m1.1Jions then "~<'e know where it came from. That :l.s easy for the minister to do.

Nothing could be e~tsier than for the Minister of Finance to destroy my entire argument on this point, just destroy it with one clocument. T challenge the minister to bring that document in and lay 1t before the House and make it public. I challenge him or any hon. r,entJeman in the ministry opposite because they are all equally responsibJ e.

Jlut H he does not procluce it, Sir, no matter what - there c.lln be no val:f c1 excuse for not producing :l.t - i.f he does not produce 1t, Sir, I and fair-minded people throughout this Province wiJ.l conc1uc1e that the figure in the budget is not accurate, that it has he en infl atec1. I do not mean by inflation. I mean infJ a ted, deliberately ~tnd kno~'inP-lY for political purposes, We can draw no other conclusion. No change :In tax rates a.nd it went from $60.5 million yield in year one to $Rfi 1111lli.ons in year t'loTO. Oh, ,.,e can talk ahout the fact that the incol'le tax goes up ~o•tth inflation.

Of course it does,because the effective rate is the mar gina 1 r11te, the rate one pays on the ] ast little bit of income. ''r. Speaker, there is no way that that effect can account for that 1490

December 12, 1975 Tape no. 589 Page 2 - mw Mr. Roberts: change was the inflationary yield. So the question comes up, the question came up last year in our little caucus, what could we expect from equalization in the current year? We had it figured out at around $200 million or $205 million. We had allput-our heads together, and we prayed, and we thought, and we studied, and we dlld,, a little calculations on our fingers and toes. We came up with a figure of -what? $204 million, Rodger, was it of that order? Two hundred and four million. We were powerfully surprised when the hon. Mr.

Earle,as he then was,stood in the House, whatever the date was­ March 12-and said, "Equalization, $210 million." I became a little suspicious. My friend from Burgeo- Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) became a little suspicious. It was too much of a good thing, and we did a little investigation. We picked up the telephone, and we called one or two people in Ottawa, and we were told that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador had made an estimate of equalization that seemed to be new to the people in Ottawa. Now, we were not told that officially.

I have no evidence, and beside it is the government's figure, not Ottawa's figure. The government bring in the budget~ But it seemed a little strange. Usually the government have been pretty accurate in estimating equalization. Let me just take the last two years. In 1974-1975: I have given Your Honour the revised figure of $185 million, the estimated figure was $185 million, dead on, perfect estimating. The year before that, the 1973-1974 fiscal year, the estimated figure and the main estimates brought in by the then Minister of Finance, the member for St. John's West (Mr.

Crosbie), I believe, was then minister, brought him by him in his budget speech, was $156 million. The revised figure was $153.6 million, almost dead on about a one per cent error. This year, Sir, we get a $210 million estimate and $194.3 million revised figure- a $16 million goof, an eight per cent mistake. 1493

December 12, 1975 Tape no . 589 Page 3 - mw Mr . noberts. Now, ~r. Speaker, I want to know who made that mistake. I want to know whether this govert1111ent put that figure in with no more substance to it than if it were lemon merangue , just froth and air . I think it was . I say quite candidly I " think that that $210 million figure was taken out of thin air and put in the estimates. Again I say to the ministry they can prove me wrong very easily. 1494

December 12, 1975 Tape No. 590 NM- 1 MR. ROBERTS: All they have to do, the only thing which they have to do, all that they have to do is produce the letter from the finance officials in Ottawa-.saying simply, Dear Government of Newfoundland, here is the estimate of what you were going to get on equalization this coming year. It has to be Ottawa's figures. Ottawa make up the equalization formula. They give it to us. It is a form of welfare.

The rest of Canada all chips in and I am not sure if it is seven or eight provinces draw out of it, but everybody chips in, all the taxpayers of Canada chip in according to their means and the provinces have money paid out to them according to their needs as defined in a very, very complicated formula. As I recall I think there are forty separate tax yield taken into account now on the equalizati.on formula. There used to be just three. It used to be just the personal income, the corporate income and the estate tax, these were the only <ones equalized.

But now I believe forty separate sources, a very complicated formula and there is no need to go into it now. The fact remains that Ottawa each year sends the Government of the Province, whether it is minister to minister or official to official does not matter, it comes from Ottawa to here an estimated equalization. And I say that the estimates sent down by Ottawa in my belief was not $210 million. That is important Mr. Speaker, because if that figure was plucked out of thin air, as I believe it was, then it raises the question of exactly what the miniAf"rv w~Te up to when they plucked it out of thin air.

No trouble to table a letter, any bon. gentleman opposite can table it. The Minister of Finance is in Ottawa, fine. The Premier is here. A number of his colleagues are here. The secretary of the Treasury Board would whistle up the letter for any one of them. A phone call down would bring it up. It could be tabled here before six o'clock this day. But I will wager it will not be, Sir. And the people of Newfoundland will be left to ask why. If it is tabled and if in fact it shows me to be wrong, it would certainly explode my whole argument. And you might say I am taking a chance, Mr.

Speakrr, I am, and let them prove me wrong! I have no right to that document. The ministry would not even table the Ten 1495

Dece.mber 12, 1975 Tape No. 590 NM- 2 '<R. 'RfiBERTS: Commandments in this House, with their record. But, ~lr. Speaker, they can get that document and they can table it. Let any one of them stand in his place and produce it. Give it to the press. Tt would certainly make me look a little foolish or a great deal foolish~but I say that that $210 million figure •·r;H l inflnt<'cl and if it '"as inflated it was inflated for one reason only, to make the budget presented by Mr. Earle in March past, to make it look better than it was, to present an inaccurate, unfair, misleading picture. Mr.

Speaker, the story is a shocking one. Because what I am saying is that this government, on the evidence that I have, has led a number of us to believe that the March Budget was not an accurate one,that there was what amounted to an attempt to fool. And that then leads to the next question; Are the estimates valid now? Are the figures now accurate? I have very serious doubts. Hy friend from Burgeo - Bay d 'Espoir gave the reason behind that in some length,but I think, Sir, there are very real doubts on the validity of these estimates.

I am in the school of thought that believes we have not had all the had ne~rs yet. That is why we moved the amendment in the way we did. He could have picked a thousand subjects to move the amendment on. We could have talked about the Marystown Shipyard, the scandal that the ~inister of Industrial Development is trying to hide down there. We could have brought that in as the subject of an amendment and made it a debate. And' maybe l·•e shall in due course. I am not saying the minister is implicated in a scandsl 1by the way, I am saying there is one and he is trying to hide, to supress, to keep from public view.

MR. CANNING: It happened before he took over. "'R. ROBERTS : That is right. My friend from Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Canning). quite rightly reminds me it happened before the hon. gentleman became a minister. It happened long before his time- not long before his tfme, but before his time. 'lR. UlNDRIGAN: Js there a scandal about that? MR. ROBERTS: He asks if there is a scandal there. 1496

~ . r.ANNING: T think so, yes. ~~ . ROBERTS: Yes . Tape Ne . 590 ~l.!h..J:.ANN ING: Before your t i.me. NM- 3 ~R. ROBF.RTS: Would the hon . gentleman agre e to appoint a r oyal cnmm!~sion if 1 - I will present my evidence, I will present it any\olay here :in the House in due course and believe me I have p.ot i.t. 'I'M'• !-4r. Spea ker, the fact r emains that we chose to move th is am~ndmenc i n the '~av in whic h we did be cau1'!e we belie ve these ~~timat~s are not accurate . 1497

necember 12, 1975 YT'. l'ClREl'TS: Tape 591 IB-1 I think that lY'hen l<'e ret the Auclitor General's report in due course~ or "'hen we get the budget statement which the minister will bring in in l'arch or :In 1\prjJ in respect of 1975-1976 fiscal year, the one l<Jtdch hegins on Apr:fl 1 next, the next f1.scal year, we will discover that there are many millions more in the deficit. 1 ':17n-1977. II". !'ORF.RTS: I <1m sorry. I thank the hon. rentleman.

The 1976-1977 year, the one which begins the next year which bep;ins on April 1 next. h'e l-.•111 discover there are many millions more that have not become public, that tr.is is not a full and candid financial statement. I c\o not think the figures are accurate, Sir. I ~m not sure the expenditure f1pures are accurate. VJe do not debate them at this stage. He '"'ill get an estimates clebate in cue course. We will get a supplementary supply debate in due course. But, as this stage, I do not think the expenditure figures are accurate. Again the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay D'Espoir (Mr.

Simmons) a number of instances where there are sound questions that have not been answered. ~or all of the speeches on the other side - there have only been two or three or four - they are not very forthcoming. They are not very anxious to defend this document. They almost seem to '"7ish that it would pass in the dead of night - quickly, quietly, indecently! No minister has stood and has c~allenged the assertions we have made. J will wager that no ev:l.dence is produced fn this debate, if this debate ends today or tomorrow or whenever it ends. The letters can he produce~ and that is the only proof I will accept.

I will accept any hon. gentleman's word,of course, Mr. Speaker, of course I will• Rut I will not accept an assertion that the estime~tes are accurate, that that $210 milHon figure that Mr. Earl.e -where did he get it? Ont of thin a:! r? I think so. Then why die\ he get it! And the way to prove me wrong is deaP simple, just table the documents. No trouble at ~11, nothing secret about those clocuments now, not the least bit secret. It cloes not matter a hoot, not a. hoot. There :l.s no reason 1498

necewher 12, 1975 Tape 591 IB-2 ''1'. PnRF.P'T'S: to lock them up. They might have been secret at the time or they mip,ht nnt. There might have been a nee~ at the time or there might not, but there is certainly no need now to keep secret the ~ocuments from nttawa inc-Heating what the revenue yields would be this year, no neerl now. He are nine months into the fiscal year. We are $30 million ~own in the fiscal year. There is no need now to keep them secret. Rut I will bet we do not see them. I will bet we do not get an answer. 1•Te may get an assertion, but I will bet we get no documentary proof. Hr.

Speaker, what I have said in itself, I think, is enough to condemn this budget. It :ts a shabby document, a shoddy document. It does not give us a full and a frank financial statement. I do not say why it does not. Let the people of Newfoundland .1udp;e for themselves. T am not so sure it would be parliamentary for me to give my reasons ~my. T am not afrairl to give them. I have given them outside the House, but I do not think it is parliamentary to give them inside the House and so I will not. Rut I can say that I do not think that the burl get :f.s accurate.

I clo not think the one last March was accurate, and I wonder why. I will come back to that, Sir. Let me talk for a moment or two about some of the good things in the budget,because there are some good things in the budget. I am quite happy to see them there, anrl I am eaually happy to point them out and to mention them. The housing - the good things are two in number. The bad things are about 102 in number. The p.ood things are two in number. First of all,the housing programmes. T thank the hon. member for Green Bay (Mr. Peckford) for his applause, muted though it may have been.

But I think the houstng programmes are good programmes, ard I think the sales tax exemption is a g~od thing as well. These are both very popular, and so they sbnuJd be. nut T feel 1 !'lust point out, Sir, that the housing programme is more shadow than substance. The budget on pages 13 and 14 haa the references to it in case anybody wants to read along. But of all the 1499

l'ecemher 12 , l<l75 ~ ~. ~>OB RP T~ : Tape Sill Ill-3 progrR1'11!1es bei ng announced only one i s rea.l, and that is the $6()0 - cal l it a h o~eowner grant. I ~ o not know what name is to be put "'" :1 t, hu.t the !=:fi()n grant which was being p ~>:l d and wilJ be paid as of the 1st of January to families who are acquiring a home which is their f i r st 11nd l;h:lch is being occupied fo r the first tiltle . That essentiaJl replac es t he fe~e.ral grant, the gran t which Ottawa cut out wh ich T thi. nk 'vas $500.

C!''RC usee! to pay that and they decided , c>r the r.!"vernment of Canada decicled to cut 1 t out . T am not sure if :1 t t:< out now or 'if it is out the end of December but it is - AN JI)N. ME~Fl>: !'ecember 31. ecewhe r 31. I thank the hon. gentleman. It is going e>ut . ~o :It r epl aces tt and i improves it a little . It is $100 up . tt is a ?.0 per cent rise. IT' . PEr.KFO!'n: Tt not onl y improves i t in cost, it also improves it i,n condi.t i.on. :'_fl'. RO~fRT~ : I thank the hon. gentleman for pointing out it fmptuvea it in condition as well as in cost.

So, full 111arks an both account ·s. ·The other 15\30

December 12, 1975 Tape no. 592 Page 1 - mw Mr. Roberts. programmes, of course, the other programmes in the housing field which the speech talks about are only at this stage pious wishes. They may or may not become a reality. I hope they will. But as of this point, Sir - and this should be pointed out - they are of no more substance, of no more weight than, say, the example I used earlier, a lemon merangue, which looks big, may even taste nice, but has no nourishment at all in it. It is just froth and air, and it is blown up well beyond what it should be. The sales tax exe~tions, Sir, I think that is real.

Anybody who goes into the store and buys clothing or all the articles defined as clothing tn the regulations is told he does not have to pay his tax, and that is good. That is great. I am pleased as well that the government have recognized the principle that rich and poor alike pay sales tax, and that they have said that a suit or an

article of clothing if more than $300 is not exempt. The only thing I would question is why they put it at $300. It is a pretty dear suit. I do not know how many bon. gentlemen in the House wear suits that cost $300, but I will bet very few. I bet very few wear or are even wearing $300 worth of clothes all taken in, shoes, socks, unmentionables, more unmentionables, shirts, ties, pants, jacket, hats -would you wear a hat in the House, Your Honour?

Somebody will before the session is over, because there is one of those Standing Orders that says, you know, that says, a member desiring to speak shall rise uncovered in his place and address the Chair. Somebody will wander in wearing a hat to preserve the principle and have it carry on. MR. NEARY: - ·--- We got one already. MR. ROBERTS: Have we? MR. NEARY: The policeman. MR.

ROBERTS: Oh: The bon. gentleman who guards - I am not sure if he guards us from ourselves or guards the outsiders from us, but the hon. gentleman who is filling in for the Sergeant-at-Arms is wearing a hat as part of his unifera. ~ut if he tries to speak in the House, Sir, 1501

December 12, 1975 Mr. Roberts. Tape no. 592 Page 2 - mw there has to be a point of order taken. Somebody will wear a hat • The point that I am making is that $300 is a pretty generous exemption and that leads me to the major point I want to make on this whole sales tax business and this whole exemption business is that they benefit the wealthy far more than they benefit the less wealthy. Exemptions are the wrong way to go about administering taxes. It is far better to adopt the philosophy which the government of Canada have adopted in their Family Allowance programme.

Pay it to everybody~ rich and poor alike, and tax it back, tax it back through the income tax - a marvellous way to get at the wealthy, a marvellous way~ It could be maae a little better, but I think that is a better philosophy than exemption. I wonder how many of my constituents in the Strait of Belle Isle wander in and buy an ·article of clothing worth $300, not too many, Str, not too many at all or even $200. But maybe here in St. aohn's. AN HON. MEMBER: Sure they do. MR. ROBERTS: -people do by them.

I suppose if you. go down to the London, New York and Paris or the various ste~es around town, Ayres or all the others that you could buy a suit for more than $300. I do not know. Maybe you could. I will bet that there are precious few of them bought,or dresses. Precious few dresses,! will bet,are bought for more than $300, precious few. I mean,an exemption is wrong in principle. But if we are going to have one, if they will not adopt the principle of grants instead,then why $300? It is too high. It should be lower.

I think that any man who can afford to pay $3oo··, for a coat or a suit of clothing or any woman who wishes to spend $300 on a dress or a coat or whatever

article of wear should be delighted to pay the tax on it, delighted, Let us bring it down to, maybe, $50 or $100, or better still, let us just establish a clothing amount for the year,maybe the provincial average. It is easy enough to do, and work out a grant system. It is far quicker, far better. Maybe ad.inistering it would be a little more difficult. There could be a tax on that, but I am not so sure it is. I am not so sure it is. 1502

December 12, 1975 Tape no. 592 Page 3 - I'IIW Mr . Roberta. In any event, those are the good things in the budget as I see them, and I co1111end them. I am delighted the govenuaent have brou~ht them in . I am pleased. I am happy, and when I can afford to huy a new suit I will go down and buy one, and it will be vell under $300, but at least, as I do not pay the tax, I vill record mentally my pleasure . I may 1503

December 12, 1975 Tape 593 PK - 1 Hr. Roberts: even go out and vocally record my pleasure. You may hear a yell from the middle of Avalon Mall saying, "No tax on a suit! " And that would be me. MR. NOLAN: Put a sign on your lock! }ffi. ROBERTS: Pardon? NR. l!S'LAN: Put a placard on your back • • • }ffi. ROBERS: My hon. friend from Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) suggests a placard on my back. Well other people have tried to put other things in my back so maybe a placard will be a pleasant change. Mr.

Speaker, let it not be thought,though,that these goodies in the budget are anything more than what they really are, which are a little cosmetics, a little rouge, a little lipstick, a little face powder to try and dress it up, to hide the reality. It is only cosmetics, it is not the thrust or the force of this budget speech. Tl·e budget is about two things only, and two reasons in that budget, two things that it accomplishes, two things it is meant to accomplish, and neither of them is a housing programme or neither of them is a sales tax exemption on clothing or on anything else.

One is to reveal the fact which the government could not keep hidden any longer, that there is a huge deficit on current account this year. I do not think they have revealed all of it yet. The second thing the budget is suppose to do and does is lay the ground work for the imposition of swingeing tax increases, absolutely cruel tax increases on the most regressive tax of all. That is all the budget does, Sir.

IVhile I am quite willing to point out the good things and quite willing to give credit for them, because I believe they are ~~orthy of credit,! do not think any of us, Sir, should get carried away for one minute and think that we should feel that the government have done something that somehow merits praise. Since this government came into office, Sir, the sales tax has gone up by 42.9 per cent, 43 per cent increase. It was seven cents on the dollar when they became the government. It is now ten cents on the dollar. And that, Sir, is an increase of 42.9 per cent. 1504

December 12, 1~75 Tape 593 PK - 2 ~fr. Roberts; And I bet there is more to come, more to come. Next year or the year after we will see more put on that 1or we will see the gasoline tax go up,or we will see the corporate income tax go up,or the personnal income tax go up, up and up and up. That is the way the taxes will go. Now, Mr. Speaker, there has been a great national breast-beating in this budget debate, a great bearing of the soul, more or less, a great gnashing of teeth and wailing and somehow wringing our hands .

To hear some of the hon. gentlemen in this House talk we might as well throw the keys on the middle of the table now and tell the banks and the bond houses they can have her; we might as well ring up some trustee in bankruptcy and say, "lloy, have a look at the act to what it takes to put a province under;" we might as well get out the Amulree Report and reread it, that charter for bankruptcy which we had in 1933. To hear some hon. gentlemen talk that is what we might as well do. Just turn her in now, get it over with, do not prolong the agony, she is gone belly up boys, get out from under as quick as you can.

There is no doubt at all though, Sir, that this ~rovince,and every province, but let us be concerned only with this Province is in a serious economic situation. No doubt at all. You do not need the hon. minister's budget speech to know that. You do not need to hear the constant reneging on promises day in and day out, this cut, thi~ cutback, this deferred, this put off, this cancelled, You do not need that to know that we are in a serious economic situation. No member of the House needs to be convinced of that.

None of us is stupid and none of us is lacking in patrotism or in good motives, We are all trying to do our best 1 as we see the light, to state the problem and to try and solve it. That does not need really to be discussed a great deal notg, Hho are we trying to convin.:e? Ourselves? Tl1e outside world? If we need to convince ourselves, Sir, we do not have much belief in what we are doing, and if we try to convince the rest of Newfoundland and I.abrador 1 they will ask,what are you going? It is not enough to just beat your breast and order up a large number 1505

December 12, 1975 Mr •. R,oberts: Tape 593 of sack cloth and a large q~tity of ashes. PK - 3 What we are lacking, Sir, is not an appreciation of the problem, Whatwe are lacking is leaders~11~ AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! HR. ROBERTS: What we are lacking is a government that states the way, A government that says, 1506

nece~her 17, JQ7~ VP. POBEPTS: T11pe 5Q4 H1-l here is the FRV out of this. Like 11 crowd of cloc.tors,they h11ve pot tl1e pPtient out on the table before them. They al J ap:ree on the rl:l~fffiosj_s. 'l'hey 111J a~ree that the patient has 11 very serious :f.llness. Some feel :ft ~nv be terminal. Others feel it is not that bad but it is cert'linly very hF>rl. They 11p:ree on the diagnosis hut they cannot aRree on the cure. nne Jot are for cutting: off the poor patient's right leg and another one vmuld cut off his ]eft ]ep:.

Somebor1y e]se Hants to cut off h:f :o he a(!. !"ol'lehorly eJ se suggests that they take out his heart. Smneh0rl~r p],;e says, let us p:ive him a piJl. Someborly else says, no, let ns hleerl him, and the patient could be lying there clyi.np:, certllinly S\l ffcr.ing ~~h 11 e the cloctors har;r,J e around and argue around anrl dfscuss nnd take second opinions :md third opinions and fourth opinions and l1eaven s knmm how ~:my other opinions. He have got llll these schools of thought in now. He have the r;l oom ;mel c1ool'l crown. Tf ever politics made strange bedfellows, ~·r.

Spe<~ker, it :Is an o]n sayfng but,you know,it is a true one. Phen I hearn the hon. J>:entleman from TwHlin~>,ate (}~r. Smallwoo<") praising the hon. p:ent1eml'!n from St. John's \-Test (t-'r. ~rosbie), the hon. gentle~l'!n from St. John's North (>-r. rarter) and the hon. gentleman from St. John's F.11st ("r. ~·nrsh11ll), T thoup;ht the 1vorld had come to an encl! ~-!hen they 111J agreed to~ether, I ~'onderer1 ~.rha t had haprenecl. There h11ve h('en some m:f.ghty changes of m:lnd or chanp;es of heart on somebor!y' s poi.nt. I a!" not ~oing to try to f:fnd out where. It :1 s not the point of th:l s debate.

Each of these hon. gentJ emen has stated his reasons. nut 01h11 t <1 stranp;e <·rorl r1 it is when al 1 of these four men to~ether who before th:fs, Sir, could not hl'!ve agreed on the «ord:lng of the I"ord's Prayer, wt·en all these hon. p;entlemen together 11greed, and each praising the otl1er' s speeches! llow marveJlous it is, how wonderful it :Is, how interesting it is, how new it :f_s, how cl:ffferent it is, and how unreal it all iR! 11nt, '-"j r, they 1'\J l arree on the - you knme, these four pentleTl'('n nll ;1p:ree on the, not only the termfnll.l conil-lt:l.on but the immPil:l"!te Pxpiration nf the pi'lt:lent.

The.y are pr<>ct:lcally ringing up 1507

necemher 1?, 1975 }'1>. T'fiJlE'PTS : Tape 594 IB-7. ~<r. r.E'off GarnelJ ;md making a reservation. They rlo not say how to p:et out of it. There is wide d:lsagreement on that. 1-Te have some of them saying, cut her to the bone or into the bone. They are about the only han. gentlemen by the way who have spoken in this debate. We l1ave the hon. gent 1 ell!an from St. Jt>hn' s East (~r. :Marshall) saying, clo not cut social services. \ole have other hon. gentlemen saying, clo not cut resources. He have others saying, rlo not cut. The government are re~a1ning mute and silent,giving no leadership at all.

There is no eviclence, ~ir, that the government are doing what they say they must clo,which is to develop our resources. There is no evidence at all. mmt we do hear froM the government 1s much talk about retrenchment antl the neecl for restraint. That :Is their answer; taJk 1 no <~C'tion. '!'here is no real evidence in these estil'11ltes, l'r. Speaker, r>f any restraint 1 not the sort of restraint thl't nntar:lo :1 s showing. I do not think it is very popular in Ontario. It certainly would not be popular here.

Rut :r have not heard the oppos:ltion part:l.es in Ontario critidze it even thr>up.h there they are all in a pre-election situation and you mirht" think, ~·r. SpeaY:er, that there vould be soroe roerit in trving to T"al-:e a fev pol:!tical points, if that ~-ms ~mat a crowd of roen ~·-'In tee\ to co. nut I hear :In Ontario, I hear on the ra~io anrl see in the ne~·rspapers, that they are cutting tlown on hospitals, not deferring ne~,· ones but orders are going out from Yr. Frank ~iller, the ~ini.ster of 1-Te<l]th, the Jolly l'IHJer, an old teacher of mine at St. J.ndrew's.

I clo not know if he WI'S there when the Premier was there. Was Jolly Miller there in the early 1~5n's? PRE¥IEF ~OOPY.S: I think so. >'1' .• 'POBERTS: '.-Jell, he was the cheroistry teacher in the middle 1950's at St. Anclrew's rolle~e in Ont~rio. He has now gone on to be the Tory M1nister of Health in Ontario, But he is saying to the hospitals, c]ose bees, hold the line. No evidence that that is being said here. Maybe it is. I am not SURResting it,but I am saying if the thing is ;~s hac!, if He are going to have restraints, that is the sort of thing 1508

necemher 12, 1975 I"'. 1'0!1F'PTf' : that other places are ~o1ng. Tape 594 IB-3 OttaHa, "'e hear rumhlinRs coming out of T_Tncle Ottawa now that the OFY programmeR are e:oing to go the ~~ay of all fJesh, an!l. a numher of other p] ans are p:oing to disappear. That is '1-•hat cutting 1.nvolves. That is what restraint means. All that we have here so far is talk. 1509

necember 12, 1975 Tape No. 595 NM- 1 MR. ROBERTS: And if the economic problem is as bad as the government would indicate i.t is then let them act, let them be men about it, and I think this House will support them. I think it will ,They will have to be honest about it. They will have to say, "Boys, the situation was not as ~r. Earle said it was. It was not all peaches and roses and honey." Let me say as well, Sir, that if this government is truly concerned,they will not solve any economic problems that face this Province today by cutting on capital account. That is all they have done so far.

They have said they are deferring some new teachers on the education thing • another 200 or 300 teachers, is it? - to ill not be hired or the expansion will not go ahead. But that is not restraint. That is not cutting back. That is not even holding the line because the teacher salary vote for next year naturally and rightly will be larger than this year. And the number of teachers will probably be more next year, even though we are not going into phase three of the teacher-pupil ration improvement programme. ~fr. Speaker, all we have done is defer on capital account.

All the hospitals which the Premier flippidy-floppied around the Province starting thi.s year, turning sods, driving bulldozers, cutting trees, whatever was involved, they have all been put aside. All the water and sewer projects, many of them for which tenders have been publicly called, put astde, necreation programs, put aside. Caoi.tal projects- and maybe we have to cut on capital account although my economist friends and the advisers I turn to tell me it is an inappropriate way to fight the situation we face. They say the reason why the government is doing this is entirely different than fighting inflation.

That is not the reason the government are doing it at ' all. They say the government would have had to put off capital account because of their mismanagement. They would have to put it off whether Mr. Trudeau had made his Thanksgiving Day statement or not. But it toas coming and all that happened was the government latched onto ~·r. Trudeau and said, "Praise be, 'Pierre! Thanks for trying to give us an out- or thanks for giving us what we believe to be an out. l~e will try to ride on your coattails and make it t•ash that ~~ay !' 1510

necem~er 12, 1975 Tape No. 595 N}' - 2 MR. RO"fiEliTS: If ti/e hiiV<:' a prohlem, an economic nrohlem ,,,j th the p,over.nment of this Province, if tve are worried about inflation~and T am not so sure we should he in that sense, we should be worried about it, but this government did not cause it, and this Province ditl not c>tn'te it. We are such an insi!"lificant part of the economic picture in Canada, yon knot•, without putting us down at all, what we do is not ~oing to effect in any way the economic picture cf Canada, all it will have is a public relations value, a cosmetics value.

But, Sir, if you are going to cut the only way to cut is on current account because that 1s where the money is spent. That is 1vhere the i.ncreases come, the Yinister of Education, the }linister of llealth, all of the ministers send their requests into the Treasury Ronrd. That is "here the money is spent,and T say to the Premier that tf in fact this administration wishes, H it feels the prol-lem is as serious as they say it is, if it really believes that, and if they r,rish to do something about it, then it is on current account the cuts mu"t comE".

And let him not think that he ~rill get cheap political cracks from this side of the House, Sir, at leaet frnm this group. I clo not think that the people of Ne~Jfoundland are in any mood to trifle. Tf thev believe that it is a serious situation then we lvill see the cuts. And I believe the people of this Province, Sir, will respond to that kind of leadership, leadership that frankly and honestly and hanorablv lays the full situation before them, and says, "This is what we must do and ore are ~oing to do it.'' T do not eypect this self-ahne~ation that comes from the hon. ~cntlcman from <;t • .To~'n's '""'"t ("r.

Crosl,:f.e), ~'ho s11ys, "nh, •·•e do not care if we get cl.rcted or not!''This is the same group of men, }fr. SpeRker, who before th!' election t·rere lashing it out and j f the people of this Province today llave risi.n~ or r:f_sen aspirations and expectations it is because hon. Rentlemen opposite rose them. The reason the people on the Burin Peninsula are exr>ecting a new hoapltal is that this government promised it • ar>d t•rent do~'Tl and t~ent through the whole charade, even to having thP stage put up for the opening. The reason the people on the north 1511

necember 12, 1975 Tape 'No. 595 Nl-1 - 3 UR. POBERTS: side of Trinity Bay and on the south side of Trinity Bay and on the northern part of Placentia Bay are expecting a new hospital 11t Clarenville is that they were promised it . The Premier went out and cut down a tree - was it? - to start the proiect . That is whv they are expcctinp: it. The reason the people in Happy Valley and Goose Bay and Northwest River and Mud Lake are expecting a hospital is thev were promised it , not five years ap:o, not today but during the election and the period ronnin~ up to the election campaign.

The reason the people in Baie Verte and expecting an expansion to the Boylen Hospital is this government promised it. The reason the people down in Lewtsporte district are expecting water and sewer programmes is they were promised them. Tenders were called . nuring 1512

necemher 12. 1975, Tane 596, Page 1 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: the election you could not get into the newspaper, Mr. Sneaker. The poor Evening Telegram and Daily News, it was all thev could do! They had to keep their presses going twenty-four hours ~ day to print the tender calls. Then, of course,when the election 1~as over it was all called off, but only on caoital account. So I s~Y, Mr. Speaker, that if this government believe there is an economic situation they have not yet come to grips with it. They have not, And putting off capital account is not the way to do it.

We may have to cut capital account, we certainly could only borrow a certain amount, We must be prudent. ~e can borrow only what WP can borrow safely, But, Mr. Speaker, I do not believe that we should fight inflation. It is not our role as a Province, a~ ~ neople to fight inflation the way this government is going to, to make oeople ~o on drinking polluted water and drinkin~ - that is not parli~mentarv - but Your Honour can imagine what it is because T'lanv r-eopl e in Your Honour's district are doing that.

We are drivinr; on h~d roads while at the same time the Norma and Gladys that - of all the insanities, madcap, foolish stnndnesses - goes on here merry way. A small thing, true it is small, the whole Norma and Gladys together would not Provide water and sewer to much more than Embree or Stanhope or Comfort Cove or anywhere in the Lewisoorte district, but by God it would show the people in this Province that the government 1.s sPrious and dealing with it realistically. Mr.

Sneaker, the government must not only come to !!;rios with this oroblem, and thev have not come to r;rips and this budget does not come to grips with it. It does not. It is a shoddy and a shabby attemot, it is a cosmetic attempt to paper over the true situation. The government have mismanar;ed the economy and that is why we are cutting off capital account. They have mismanaged their own affairs an~ that is why the great cutbacks are coming, not any economic n•asons.

Let the word 11:0 forth to the neople of this Province that if we do not ~et schools and water and sewer systems and hospitals and recreational things it is not because of inflation~ It is because the administration of this Province these last four or five vears have not run affairs properly. They have not told the people the truth. 1513

December 12, 1975, Tape 596, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROBERTS : This budget now is a grudging admission of part of it, .1ust part, Sir. Then, Mr. Speaker, the government must state their priorities and then they must act on them. It is not enough to say we talk of resource development - ah: we are hearing that fhefore - and I could go through the Throne Speeches of this administration, Mr. Speaker, and I could find in each Speech from the Throne and probably each Eudp,et Speech since this administration took office, words just the same as the words in this budget.

Yet I cannot find 1,000 jobs in this Province that have been developed in the resource industries by these hon. gentlemen during their time as the ministry. It is only talk, Sir, misleading piffle with not a jot or a tittle of substancP. in it. Let me just look at one department - the Fisheries Department - to show how much emphasis this administration are plaing in resource development, in what we all agree is one of our great resources. In the Spring budget, Sir, the Fisheries Department was budgeted to spend a total of $5.6 million on current account and $12.6 million on capital account.

Of that Ottawa was to contribute 15 per cent on gross current account and Ottawa was to contribute 56 per cen~ of gross canital account. The figures,if Your Honour wants to memorize them, are $850,000 from Ottawa on the current account and $7.1 million from Ottawa on capital account. The Spring budget, Sir, was one thing . Now we get the Fall budget, a little closer to the truth a little closer to reality. Now, Sir, what has happened? The expenditures are down from the Province, they have been reduced.

What has happened in Ottawa have gone up and of the total expenditures Ottawa are contributing 58 per cent of the current account expenditures,and 57 ner cent of the capital account expenditures. So what little has been done in the fisheries Ottawa has done . This government have done nothing, absolutely nothing. This year on the fisheries they have spent less than they undertook to spend wherr they came before this House, Sir, originally. Shoddy! Shabby! Misleading! Wron~! Wrong for this Province, Sir. We all believe that the fishery can be developed. This group of 1514

necember 12, 1975, Tape 596, Page 3 -- arb MR. ROBERTS: men, this ministrv talked that thev are going to develoP it , they pledged again to do it bnt all is wind and snund and fury signifving nothing. 1515

December 12, 1975 } <n • 1'01\fl''J:S : Tape 597 IB-1 Now another point, one I have seen so often from gentlemen opposite I beUeve it is prohahly deliberate. That is the:l .r complete abdication of responsibility, this tactic they get off with, well,~re are only here - the gentleman from Grand Falls (~r. Lundrir,an) is the man who Most often voices it. It obviously represents his thinking or what passes for his thinking. But minister after minister stands to parrot this ancl sa.ys, ~~e are not here to do things, we are here to respond, we are here to take the suggestions from the people.

So I put them to the ] ie on that by put tinp; a resolution do'-'11 to en.able them to do that. Of course they are going to turn that down and be exposed for what they are.. tlut they seem to feel their job is not to lead. They are not a government. They are not governing. They are not trying to get ideas, not seekinp. out opportunities. They are not showing the way to go. The~· are just there !ike a bunch of caretakers. If somebody happens to ._,ander in and say, you know, Sir, I got an iclea, how about a few dollars, then they may or may not do it.

But where is the drive and initiative1 If this r,roup of men, }!r. Speaker, were determ:l.necl to do something for this Province they would be out scouring night and day looking for ideas - some are p_oocl, some are bad, some are mediocre- but looking for ideas to try to develop this Province and to get things ~oing. They have not created, Sir., 1,000 permanent jobs since they are in office 1 the "'hoi e group of them together have not, Sir. They spent l'l:lllions but they have not created 1,000 permanent jobs.

All they have done is knock, knock, knock! ~rp . m•ALLWOOD : The civil servants. liT'. t>OBEPTS: Ah, they have not even created a permanent job - I do not count a c:'-v:ll servant as a permanent job. The c:lvil service has grown. Rut not 1,000 productive jobs. Not 1,000 new jobs. Not 1,000 resource-based johs. All they do :Is talk and we get the same tired old excuses. I regret this, Sir. The council of hon. gentlemen opposite one of defeat, despair. They have given up. They just want to hold on to off:! ce 1 that :l.s a11 they want. They do not want to do anything 1516

~~cemher 12, 1975 l·'ll. Tlf'Jll'T'TS: Tape 597 IB-2 >ri th it. That :! s no v•ay to rlevelop this country. If the hon. gentleman from Grand Falls (}!r. I.undrip.;an), if that is his philosophy as it seems to he, then T. think the Premier shonlcl mve him out of clevelopment, put him into some portfolio where hfs negative philosophy w:!lJ be tl!'le.ful, like the Treasury :'3oarcl or the Finance nepartment where it helps to have a man who can say, no, no, no, no. l'r. Speaker, the budp.;et is a failure. It is not a full and a frank statement Clf the <.>.ffa:l.r,; of this Province.

Tt cloes not tell us »!Jere Fe !lre. It cloes not explain ho'" the situat:l .on arose. It cloes not teU us · ~hat '·•ent 'rrong with "lr. F.arle's bU<:lget. T. regret this. Tt rloes not p::!ve me any pr:lcle at all or any pleasure at all because there is throur:hottt this Province, Sir, a growing cynicism about ~cwermnent, not particularly about this government, but about the r,overnmental process. ~e budp.;et was a great opportunity to do some­ tbjng ahout that, to help to dispel that .feel:lnp,. But, Sir., it is an opportunity Jost, an opportunity forfeited, an opportunity m:lssed.

The government, Sir, promised much. There was no indication up tmtil the lfth of September. that anything was wrong. The roads, the wllter. <.>nrl sewer, the hospitals, recreation , all were going ahead, all Su1'1!11er lonf'. ~'in:! sters were out lashing H out, promise after promise. Canrlirlates were out announcing things. Mr. Sam Saunders, Jate, a Tory candidate :In Terra Nova announcing roacls do'I<TO to Salve .ge. nver on ~"op;o Islnnr1 nr. ~'ann:l. ng, the Tory candidate announcing $1 mil lion •·•orth of roads over there. Down in Burgeo-Jlay n 'Eapoir promising the fish pJ ant.

Nm•l it :Is aU deferred or called off. No wonder the people are cyn:!.cai ~ No wonder this government is not believed! No ~~onder they hel-J.eve there :! s a breech of faith with the people of this Province! The povernment now talk of rising expectations as if somehow our people are to hJame. Newfoundlanders are to blame because they be]jeved the crowd of men who came to them and sai~, we will do this for you j f you make us your government. The J.ower Churchill- we ~rill hR.ve a tjme to debate that and so '"e shall - but I say there was nothing 1517

neceMber 12, 1975 }Ill. r.ORE!'T!:: Tape 597 in that staten>ent l'!acle her e :fn this House the other day by the ~inister of ~tnes And fnerr,y, nothing which the government ought lB-3 not to have known or clid O!'t in fact know, one or the other, before the election. Hut clfd they tell the people? Not so . The people in my ~:fsttict were lining up in Yankee Point and across the way in Point au Amore on the Labrador side expecting jobs. That is what t'le !odes told thel'l. You know, of all the callous, calculated acts! Now, Sir, the Prov:fnce,we are tol~~ is in a parlous state.

The minister comes in anr he talks of, boasts of,cutting the d~ficit to ~11 million as if some~ow he had done something good. He set up A stra~~ mRn of $30 1'111 Hon and he boasts of cutUng :I t to $11 mill:lon, 1518

December 12, 1975 Tape 598 PK - 1 Mr: Roberts; and of cutting the capital account,the borrowing, the net borrowing, the credit we are going to pledge to a mere $220 million; a third of what it was, in total when this administration took office. Sir, the only cutting involved is 'from arbitrary totals, totals without substance, without meaning or without reality. I am not allowed to say they are fakes so I will not. But the totals, Sir, that were arbitrated - the minister put up and he said, we were going to have $30 million account deficit, but it is only $11 million now. How do we know? How do we know?

The figures in the budget nobody can rely on. They are not accurate. They are wrong. Let the government 1 let the government - MR. WELLS: That is a serious charge. MR. ROBERTS: It is a serious charge. Well let the government show us the truth if what I say is wrong. But I say the figures are wrong. And let it be recorded as well, Sir, that this budget does not cut anything. Current account spending is up by $23 million. The current account deficit has gone from a total of 11. - I am sorry - from a $1.5 million surplus in March to $11.3 million deficit tha~ they admit now, a total change of $12.8 million.

Now, Sir, who do they expect to believe that? Who do they expect to believe that has all occurred since the 16th. of September, whether they did not know about it or they could not have known about it? Do they really think Newfoundlanders are too green to burn? Capital account: No cutting there. It is up by $3.4 million. Debt retirement is up by $1.1 millions. And the result of it all is a total deficit, the total amount that we have to find this year is $17.3 million greater than it was when Mr. Earle brought in his infamous budget. And the minister boasts that he somehow achieved something good.

I think, Sir, that it is the most cynical budget speech that has ever been made. I think it was made, Mr. Earle's budget speech was brought in to try to get them over the election. I think so. I think the facts support that. I think the people of 1519

December 12, 1975 Tape 598 PK- 2 MR. ROBERTS: Newfoundland know that to be so. This is not the record of a prudent government, of careful management. This record is one of a mis­ management and bad handling. And then on top of it all, Sir, the government attempt to hide it. You know, the figures do not support them, Mr. Speaker. Their record has not been too bad over the years in predicting things. I gave the figures on equalization The government have not been too bad in predicting their revenues. All of a sudden this year they go wrong. Why? No explanation given.

The Minister of Finance's explanation tJould not satisfy the merest child. No, Sir! And I say again unless they produce the evidenae that I am wrong I shall believe,as I do now on the best evidence that I can get,that the government - I am not allowed to say "cooked the books," aBI I? Oby, I will not say it - but the government, Sir, put in an estimate that was inflated, an estimate that was not the estimate that they got from Ottawa, that somehow they dreamed it up,the minister, Mr. Earle,who was then Minister of Finance~communed with nature.

I can see him perched on a flagpole co111D111ning, thinking, saying, "Ha, ha!" I do not care what Ottawa said. What do Ottawa know about equalization? They only pay it to us. I will make it $210 millions because that will enable me to balance my budget and to boast that there are no tax increases.') Shoddy! Shabby! A sadistically cynical: performance. The government's record - look at the public accounts, Sir, compared to the main estimates. Almost inevitably -well I will read the figures for the last three fiscal years, the only ones of which we have records, the three since this government has been in office.

In 1971-1972 fiscal year, the estimated total current account revenue was $268 million. The public accounts reveal that the total figure in fact was $283 million, and in each case I am excluding grants in aid for specific departments, but the revenue sources as opposed to shared costs. The main estimates the next year showed $311 millions and the public accounts reveal that the total in fact when the 1520

December 12, 1975 Tape 598 PK - 3 ~~~~herts; Auditor General audited it, it was $309.8 millions. The year after? m;1in estimates $361 million, the public accounts revealed $3qo millions but there were significant increases in that budget. So normally, Sir, if they err, they err on the side of caution. This year it is the other way around. 1521

December 12, 1975 Tape No. 599 NM- 1 M.R. ROBERTS : Now how could any fair-~inded man believe that the r,overnment have been candid and honest and open with the people, how could he? How could any person,with all the good faith in the world, believe that this administration levelled with the people of this Province- on that sort of shoddy, shabby record? There has been not a ~Tord raised in their defence, not a word of explanation. Perhaps some bon. J!;entleman- the member for Menihek (Mr. Rousseau) is over there giggling cynically.

But I say to the bon. gentleman,would he table the document showing where the $210 million equalization figure came from? Would he agree to table it? I get no answer. I get no answer, ~lr. Speaker, and I say no bon. gentleman up there will table that. Or if they do not want to table it will they agree to let the government at Ottawa make it public because the government at Ottawa, I asked them, and they said, "No, we cannot make it public." I accept that because it is a government to government communication. So I do not know what nttawa told them. But I will wager it is substantially less than $210 million.

I·'P. P.OFSSEAU: You have it from Ottawa'! '!J! .• SU'J-'{)NS: l·1e have an idea. ~. TI0BERTS: No, I say I do not. I asked them and I was told that it is government to government and I accepted that. I did not got any further. But I will wager it is considerably less than $210 ~illion. I will wager a great deal on that, Sir. I will wager the amount of the current account deficit that it is less than $210 million; No,that figure came out of thin air, the-other revenue, the personal income tax figure,! believe,came out of thin air,and pretty thin broth it was. It was put in just to inflate the revenues.

Your Honour, they could not hide expenditure. They say they goofed on salaries. Well there is about $30 million not accounted for there, leaving that aside. The govern~nt, Mr. Speal~er, the way they attempted to do it, simple, ' •'''~" to jnfluence revenue,; and say ''ho will ever know whether equalization is $210 million or $205 million or $195 million, and what we will do is we 1522

nec~mber 12, 1°75 Tape No. 599 NM- 2 ~ rnBE~'TS: ,.d 11 ~Pt through the elect1.on and l·rhen 1.t 111 all over , . ,~ •>!ill go in 11nd tell them and they will qor b:.>w anY'~ay. Thnt was thei.r ,,,l,ole anproach. That waR 1;-hat IJent on. That was vh:1t Hr. F.arle said in his mind. I do not think the hon. p;entleman ns he then l•.'l'.S from St. John Is South (Mr. Wells) • was in the House <~t th<tt time. T think he ·~aR just an ordinary member, a backbencher, "- humble supporter of the government.

I think when he got in the Cabinet he p,ot shocked and that is why he p,ot half1~ay out of the Cabinet as a miniRter trithout portfolio, no longer having the responsibility with ad­ ministering a portfolio. Rut perhaps the hon. gentleman from Kilbride ( t1 r. Wells). as he now is,•dll give us the facts. It is very simple to do that, Sir, verv Rimple, appallinr,tv simple, outstanding simple, no trouble at 11ll. l'lut if H not answered, if the documents are not tabled 1 Sir, the charge stands aR proven and I make the charge now. I make it here ns puhliclv as 1 can.

I make the charge that this administration hnve not come to p,rips vi.th the economic problem.q of this Province, that the remedies they propose are not designed to counter with our economic problems. They are deslgned instead to try to remedy and to rescue the government from their bad management of the p_ublic affairs of thiR Province.

They have taxed and taxed and taxed some more and they can try to cover it over t~ith the rouge, with the lipstick, the facial powder of co~metics, '~1th exemptions,hut that does not met the fact that today we are payin~ the highest sales tax in Canada, we are paying it on the least incomes, the lo•·'est incomes. The government have net made a clean hreast of things. 1-lhere is the story of the l"arystown Shipyard? Hidden, covered up, trying to he swept under the carpet, that is where it isl 'Where is the story of the ~ural Pevelopment Authority? Ridden under the carpet, tryinr, to be covered up.

Where is the story of the taxed revenue estimates? Hidden, covered t1p again! And finally, S:tr, thc::-c has been a failure to lead, a complct~ and utter failure by the government to pr