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February 11, 1988

34th Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

L039 - Wed 11 Feb 1988 / Jeu 11 fév 1988

ORDERS OF THE DAY

PRIVATE MEMBERS’ PUBLIC BUSINESS

MUNICIPAL COUNCIL RETIREMENT ALLOWANCES ACT

CULTURAL EXCHANGES

MUNICIPAL COUNCIL RETIREMENT ALLOWANCES ACT

CULTURAL EXCHANGES

ELECTION FINANCES

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

1988 OLYMPIC WINTER GAMES

HOSPITAL BEDS

MUNICIPAL ROADS

TAXES

TIMBERJACK INC.

TORONTO ISLANDS

SPEAKING ENGAGEMENT

LITHUANIAN AND ESTONIAN INDEPENDENCE DAYS

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

1996 OLYMPIC SUMMER GAMES

EDUCATION FUNDING

COMMISSIONER THOMAS B. O’GRADY

PUBLIC SECTOR PENSION PLANS

RESPONSES

COMMISSIONER THOMAS B. O’GRADY

PUBLIC SECTOR PENSION PLANS

1996 OLYMPIC SUMMER GAMES

COMMISSIONER THOMAS B. O’GRADY

EDUCATION FUNDING

1996 OLYMPIC SUMMER GAMES

PUBLIC SECTOR PENSION PLANS

EDUCATION FUNDING

ORAL QUESTIONS

ADHERENCE TO LABOUR LAWS

USE OF PRESCRIPTION DRUGS

RETAIL STORE HOURS

COMMITTEES OF THE LEGISLATURE

INCOME TAX

RENT REGULATION

EDUCATION FUNDING

HOURS OF WORK

RETAIL STORE HOURS

COMMUNITY SAFETY

AGGREGATES EXTRACTION

BEER SUPPLY

COMMUNITY SAFETY

PENSION FUNDS

NIAGARA ESCARPMENT COMMISSION

VISITOR

GOVERNMENT TELEPHONE DIRECTORY

PETITIONS

SUNNYDALE CHILDREN’S HOSPITAL

NATUROPATHY

RETAIL STORE HOURS

ADULT DAY SCHOOL

TRADE WITH UNITED STATES

NATUROPATHY

JUNIOR PUBLIC SCH0OL

NATUROPATHY

RETAIL STORE HOURS

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

EDUCATION AMENDMENT ACT

MINISTRY OF TRANSPORTATION AND COMMUNICATIONS CREDITORS PAYMENT REPEAL ACT

CONSTRUCTION LIEN AMENDMENT ACT

LIVING WILL ACT

COURTS OF JUSTICE AMENDENT ACT

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY AMENDMENT ACT

TABLING OF INFORMATION

ORDERS OF TH E DAY

ONTARIO AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE BOARD ACT (CONTINUED)

ROYAL ASSENT / SANCTION ROYALE

MOTIONS

SELECT COMMITTEE ON ENERGY

SELECT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION

COMMITTEE SITTINGS

The House met at 10 a.m.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

PRIVATE MEMBERS’ PUBLIC BUSINESS

MUNICIPAL COUNCIL RETIREMENT ALLOWANCES ACT

Mr. Cureatz moved second reading of Bill 75,

An Act to establish the Municipal Council Retirement Fund and to provide Retirement Allowances to Municipal Councillors.

Mr. Cureatz: Is the routine the same -- we have 20 minutes and I can spend as long as I want and reserve the other time? Is anybody listening?

The Acting Speaker (Miss Roberts): The honourable member has up to 20 minutes for his presentation and may reserve any portion of that for the windup. Have you decided on a portion?

Mr. Cureatz: I have not yet but I will probably try to keep five minutes for a windup.

With the limited amount of time I have, which I am not used to, we will do our best on a Thursday morning with the snowstorm blazing about. I am sure that in the Ottawa Valley, the House leader is going to have much difficulty finding his way home. He will just have to stay in the big city for another night or two and I know how sorely he will be missed in his riding.

Of course, I always want to thank the translators in our booth across the way. When I have the opportunity of saying a few words, I think it is important to acknowledge them. There are people whom I call the Star Wars monitors up on the third floor someplace who are operating all these wonderful cameras. I say to the House leader that the only thing we are missing is a colour commentator. I have been mentioning this for a long time.

In regard to my proposed piece of legislation right here, as clear as it is, for legalese purposes it is quite long, intensive and in-depth. I did not particularly want it that way, but working through the offices of the Ministry of Municipal Affairs, a lady solicitor whose name is Susan Klein did an excellent job of research for me in terms of putting down on paper -- boy, did she put down on paper -- some of the thoughts and ideas I have.

I say to the House leader that the difficulty is, even when someone is as vocal and clear as l know I am from time to time, there are people dialling in on television at this very moment across Ontario who just may not quite grasp the whole context, first, of my proposed bill -- the Municipal Council Retirement Allowances Act, 1987 -- or for that matter, heaven forbid, even understand and fully appreciate the full functioning here of this chamber, I say to the member for Durham-York (Mr. Ballinger).

It would be nice, I say to the member for Durham West (Mrs. Stoner), if we had a colour commentator. Actually, I am going to bring this up later in a bill. We have a lot of time; I think, for me, another three years before the next go-around. I am going to bring up in a private member’s bill that we should have a colour commentator. We have some great people such as Rosemary Speirs, and Bob Fisher from the Canadian Broadcasting Corp. They could sit in the magic booth up there and every now and again override the speaker; not you Madam Speaker, but the person who is speaking at his or her spot. I know it could be a little dicey.

Mr. Sterling: On a point of order, Madam Speaker: I am quite willing to give a colour commentary on this speech, if the member would like, after every two minutes. Would he perhaps like me to do that? I think he has led into this bill very well and is going to get to the meat and substance of it right now.

The Acting Speaker: Thank you very much for your comments. I am sure he is going into that immediately.

Mr. Cureatz: I will call upon my colleague. He and I have got along so well in the past, especially on the decision of who should be our interim leader, but that is a debate for another time. We will be looking forward with great anticipation for his colour-commentary comments on my proposed bill.

To finish off that aspect, we will get into some details. I say to the members, for those of them who have viewers and constituents across Ontario who tune in from time to time, surprisingly enough I get the odd letter from people across Ontario who indicate an appreciation -- I even showed one to the House leader -- of my explaining what is taking place around here because, believe it or not, people do not know. After all, those new Liberal back-benchers still do not know what is going on around here. I see them wandering around lost in a fog. It would be helpful if we had a colour commentator to override the person speaking so that he could explain what is taking place here.

As to what is taking place here this morning at 10 o’clock, as we all try to wake up in anticipation of the last question period coming up at 1:30 p.m., before we get on to other committees, the recess and then come back for the spring session, we are talking about a proposed piece of legislation, the Municipal Council Retirement Allowances Act.

I say to the people at home that we will all be interested to see which way this goes. It is supposedly a free vote here in the chamber, although I admit, from past experiences on the government side, quite often the whip over there, in the days when we were the government, would try to whip all the back-benchers into shape, saying: “Oh no, you cannot vote in a particular way on this because it is going to affect some other minister’s legislation. You have to do what you are told.” But I know that under this new Liberal administration, freedom and openness prevail so that when the vote finally comes --

[Applause]

Mr. Cureatz: I got the applause, I say to the people at home. I got the applause from the Liberal back-benchers.

Freedom will prevail and we will see individually how it carries. I say to the people at home that if it passes it does not mean it becomes law, because it is up to the government -- the four front people; the Premier (Mr. Peterson), the Attorney General (Mr. Scott), the House leader (Mr. Conway) and the Treasurer (Mr. R. F. Nixon), who really run everything around here -- to decide if it will become law by being asked to come forward for third reading and assent by the Lieutenant Governor. I am not holding my breath on that one.

I am not holding my breath for a couple of reasons. It is interesting that since I proposed the legislation, I have received a number of phone calls and letters from municipalities across Ontario. We have stirred up some interest. Indeed, the bill is not infallible. There are some mistakes in it. But the whole idea was to bring it forward and have some discussion so that we can talk about the general issue of trying to get people more involved in politics, at all levels of politics, be it municipal, provincial or federal.

Boards of trustees is an area I missed that was brought forward to my attention by various trustees across Ontario. They would like to have coverage under the umbrella of the proposed legislation.

The idea in bringing forward this bill is to have some discussion among us here, to have some feedback across Ontario and to try to stir up some interest from people in Ontario so that if they are considering getting interested in politics and running for politics, they could look at it as a career, as establishing, in terms of what some of us have established in our own professions, in our own businesses, a long-term approach, albeit it can be a little hairy because after all we succumb to the electorate from time to time. They may cut our careers short.

On the other hand, there are one or two of us, I say to my alerted colleague the member for Welland-Thorold (Mr. Swart), who has been here much longer than I have and has established a long career. I give him credit for that.

We should be encouraging people at the municipal level to also establish long careers. I am sure all of us who have been involved in politics, and those of us who have had the opportunity to serve at municipal council -- I have not had that opportunity, but we know people who have -- feel we should be encouraging people like that to stay in municipal government and to keep running and encouraging other people to run in politics.

What is one small way of giving them encouragement? I see the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Eakins) has been talking about the limitation of funding, the manner in which those particular councillors can attract funding to fund their campaigns, but we should help them on the other side.

I know this falls under the ambit of, “Oh, no. Here are politicians looking after themselves again.” It is the same old routine that we went through just before Christmas about our own salary increases. I will tell the members, that one has not been resolved yet. Eventually, one government, one day, is going to have to take it out of our hands and set it up where it should go, which is up to the commission. Let the independent body decide similar to what we have now, an independent body in the conflict-of-interest act we just passed this week.

In any event, we should allow the councillors the opportunity of looking at politics as a career, and one way of encouraging them is to provide the opportunity for them to establish a pension fund for themselves after a set number of years. There are details in the legislation that lay that out. We would not want to particularly say that a person should serve for 20 years and then should be entitled to a pension, but our own scheme here is the serving of five years. So I picked that particular number. If you serve five years, that would at least ensure that you ran for two terms, and then you should be able to establish a pension fund for yourself.

Well, I will have to say to you, Madam Speaker, and all my other learned colleagues here who are so interested, and for those who are not around -- I know they will be reading Hansard later tonight just before they retire so they can be brought up to date on my particular comments -- I am a titch ill prepared for my debate because I was anticipating we would have the long recess and then when we came back for the spring session, I would have all the necessary documentation prepared. What happened? We had to sit through Christmas. We are back again for this short week, and lo and behold, here I am.

What I attempted to do -- and I will let the member for Kingston and The Islands (Mr. Keyes) know -- was I sent a copy of the bill to all the municipalities across Ontario asking for some feedback and some information and some thought process, and that has just started to come in. We have not had as much as I had hoped and we were thinking that over the time lapse, as I indicated, we would have had more so that we would have a fuller discussion, but we will work with what we have.

The indication from some municipalities, it was brought to my attention, is that there is a provision where some councillors, if the council so votes within itself to establish a pension fund, can indeed do so. They were concerned that such

an act might affect that fund.

Well, I have to confess: We did not make provision for that under the legislation. That can be corrected easily enough; we can amend that at some future time in so far as if the government adopts the proposals so that it can make the amendment. The point is that we did not specifically want those particular pension funds to be affected for those municipal councillors who have already voted themselves a pension program.

The other area we could have concentrated on was indeed to look at the school board trustee level. Indeed, we made no provision for those people who have made a career out of serving their communities at the public school trustee level. There is an individual in the city of Oshawa, George Saywell, who I believe is the longest-serving public school trustee in the province of Ontario. I believe it is well over 30 years.

In any event, that is another little aspect of the legislation that we missed, and if I had put my mind to it, I would have made provisions so that we could encourage people who are trying to make a long-term career of putting some input, some of their concern, at the public school or the separate school boards, so that we should have made some provision for them also.

Now, the point of the matter is that we have had some phone calls and letters from across Ontario in regard to this particular piece of legislation. We were hoping to have greater input but indeed will still be recommending a discussion next year with the Association of Municipalities of Ontario and the rural municipalities of Ontario, some further input from them and some discussion in terms of how they would look at the matter.

Of course, one would think they would be appreciative of us taking this very sensitive topic in terms of politicians looking after themselves out of their hands. It would allow us to make that particular decision in terms of providing some kind of pension benefits for those people who are seeking a municipal career.

I know all members know people who have served, I can think of the member for Durham-York, the former mayor of Uxbridge. He knows municipal people at the Durham Regional Council who have approached me on the bill, one being the mayor of Pickering who has been very supportive of the legislation. Of course, they have been hesitant, I suppose, at the council of Pickering to come forward with their own piece of legislation for pensions because it takes it out of their hands and lets us decide.

If we are the greater body -- indeed, under legislation, the municipalities get their power from Ontario -- that being the case, then we should take the ball and look at the problem very responsibly and say: “Let us try to encourage.

Let us try to get more people involved at the municipal and trustee levels of government.” Indeed, one way that we can show leadership, one way that we can get enthusiastic about the proposal is to provide a kind of pension fund so those individuals feel a little more secure that they are going to have something established monetarily, besides the gold watch and a fancy little plaque when they finally finish their careers in politics or, indeed, when the electorate decides that their careers are finished.

Time is marching on. I have almost five minutes left, which we will try to retain, so I can respond to other members; but I just wanted to wind up with these remarks until later in the morning.

The Minister of Municipal Affairs, the member for Victoria-Haliburton -- someone with whom I get along very well, my neighbour to the north, and indeed I say that we have always been co-operative -- has, interestingly enough, sent me a letter which I guess other members have received, advising me that, “To help meet the needs of elected members of municipal councils and to increase public awareness of local government, my ministry’s municipal education and training secretariat will be conducting a series of seminars across the province in February and March.”

I think that is a good idea. I think it is good for the province for the minister and his staff to take leadership to, again, follow through with a program to help those new councillors, just as all the newly elected members here had a little program at the beginning of the session, it being instructive in terms of setting up a riding office, how to find appropriate staff and how to find their way around the maze at Queen’s Park. I think it is good for the minister and the government to take leadership in terms of helping those newly elected municipal councillors with the municipal election coming up this year.

He could have added a nice little cap to the whole thing by saying: “We are going to be looking at the possibility of specific legislation for setting up a pension for those people who want to have a career in municipal politics or being a school board trustee so that we can encourage you to stay in because we want people across Ontario to feel comfortable.

Indeed, when they have lots to offer, we are proud to provide to them the availability of a small monetary pension so that upon their leaving or upon, indeed, the electorate deciding that they should leave, they will feel that the contribution has been worth while, besides getting that particular gold watch, fancy plaque or the licence plate ‘XMAYOR.’” Is that what they gave the member for Durham-York?

We want to get something a little beyond that, and that is what the legislation is all about. There are some areas in it as, indeed, we have well found, but the idea was to have a discussion paper. We talk about red papers, green papers and white papers; this is the Sam paper on the municipal pension plan, to have further discussion, airing of views and working towards at a future date the possibility of establishing such a piece of legislation.

Madam Speaker, I thank you for my time and l will reserve the last three humble minutes for the conclusion of my debate.

Mr. Neumann: It is a pleasure for me to rise and give comment with regard to Bill 75,

An Act to establish the Municipal Council Retirement Fund and to provide Retirement Allowances to Municipal Councillors.

Having heard the honourable member who sponsored this bill, I am tempted, for the benefit of the television viewers watching, to clarify the issue of the day by reading the entire bill during my 10 minutes. l believe those of us who were in the House during the debate on the resolution on free trade did experience that with the honourable member. However --

Mr. Ballinger: He is not listening, David.

Mr. Villeneuve: And you did learn something, didn’t you, David?

Mr. Neumann: I did learn something from that. I learned a great deal about the honourable member.

However, there are some comments I feel should be made regarding this bill. First, l would commend the member for tackling this sensitive topic and recognizing the importance of municipal councillors in Ontario. There are over 800 municipalities, not to mention all the many school boards and public utilities commissions on which citizens serve.

The general intent of the bill, which is to encourage citizens to be attracted to serve in municipal government and to provide them with some pension upon completion of their service, is perhaps a good intent. However, I am also pleased that the member has initiated consultation with the municipalities because, indeed, there is discussion going on between the ministry and the Association of Municipalities of Ontario on this very topic.

However, it is our impression that the vast majority of municipalities in the province are not interested in this particular concept. There is some interest in the larger urban municipalities, where councillors tend to be more full-time councillors. It is therefore important that any legislation passed by the provincial government reflect the diversity of the province and allow for local option at the municipal council level which, indeed, is already permitted across Ontario. Municipal councils can opt into the existing Ontario municipal employees retirement system plan. This has worked well.

Some municipal councils that feel they need a pension plan have opted into the plan; other municipal councils that feel they do not want it have not done so.

There might be some improvements that could be considered with regard to the present approach, and I could name two improvements that might be considered. First, in some councils the mayor is virtually full-time and the aldermen are not. When you opt in under the present scheme, you must opt in all the members of council. There is not a possibility just to opt in the mayor’s position.

In some cases, because the aldermanic positions are part-time, the councils have voted not to do it. In other situations, opting in for all of the councillors does create a hardship for some members of council. If a person is serving in business and he is on council part-time and the council votes to opt in to the OMERS plan, sometimes it is a pittance of a pension. Yet having that pension registered on the income tax form reduces the amount that the person can contribute to his private registered retirement savings plans. So it does create a hardship for some municipal councillors if the entire council opts in.

Having pointed out the need for flexibility, I can point out one particularly vexing problem with regard to the bill that is proposed by the honourable member, which is that this bill would make it compulsory for all municipal councillors; at least that is the stated intent. The member, on the other hand, probably by error, misdefined what a municipality is.

There is an intention that it apply to all councillors, but under the definition of “municipality,” it says: “‘municipality’ includes a metropolitan, regional and district municipality and the county of Oxford.” So while his intent was to include all municipalities, he has left out all lower-tier municipalities, all school boards, all public utilities commissions and separated cities across the province. So even the stated intent is not achieved. The bill does have a number of flaws in this regard.

Second, if members look at subsection 9(3) of the bill -- and I will read it for the honourable members: “Subject to subsection 14(3), the amount of a person’s annual allowance” -- this is the pension that the person would receive upon retirement -- “under this

section shall be an amount equal to 75 per cent of the total of his or her contributions as a councillor, but the amount of the allowance shall not exceed the amount of his or her indemnity.”

Let us assume that a councillor has served the minimum five years and makes contributions over the five years. According to this payment formula, 75 per cent of what he contributed during that entire five years would be paid out in the first year. The plan would be bankrupt within two years. This plan is not actuarially sound.

Perhaps the honourable member, in drafting this bill, meant to say a percentage of the salary or the honorarium of the councillor averaged over five years or whatever. If that was the intent, then that is not what is stated here. Having checked with some experts on this, I find that this plan would be seriously flawed; it would be bankrupt within two to three years. Assuming that there might be some interest earned on those contributions, it would be bankrupt within at least three years. So it is not a long-standing plan at all.

Another major flaw in this bill is that the bill makes it compulsory for all councillors to be enrolled in this plan and establishes this municipal retirement fund. However, the bill nowhere gives municipalities the authority to raise the money to pay for it. Municipalities are mandated to have this approach but are not given the power to act to implement it. So there are certain problems there.

Another flaw -- not a flaw but a difficulty that might be faced by municipalities in implementing this -- is that the retirement age is set at 55. This may create some concern for municipalities across Ontario when they have been trying to maintain a retirement age of 60 for police and firemen and a retirement age of 65 for most municipal employees. To set the retirement age at 55 for the councillors might create a precedent that many municipalities would not want to look at.

In conclusion, I commend the member for raising the issue. I think that is his purpose. He himself has admitted that there are some flaws that he has picked up in feedback from municipalities. I think it is a topic worthy of discussion and l urge the Association of Municipalities of Ontario and its respective sections to review this topic. There may indeed be a need for changes in the existing provisions which allow a municipality, at its request, at its option, to opt into the current OMERS plan. As I mentioned, there might be some need for improvement in these areas and this is being considered.

Some municipalities have not been satisfied with the OMERS plan and have approached the province for private legislation. In one or two cases, private legislation has been granted to structure a retirement fund specifically tailored to the needs of a particular municipality. I think that reflects what this province should be doing. It should recognize the great diversity that exists across Ontario.

Whatever kind of retirement scheme is put in place or the authority to implement one should be done with a clear local option and with some ability for flexibility at the local level, because there is quite a significant difference between a municipality like Mississauga or Ottawa or Metropolitan Toronto and a municipality like the township of Tiny or the township of Oro or the village of whatever. These smaller municipalities do not have the same degree of interest, and the vast majority of municipalities across Ontario are smaller municipalities.

In conclusion, the bill has a worthy intent -- and I commend the member for it -- and that is to raise the profile of municipal councillors who serve very often for very little benefit. They take the criticism of their citizens, they serve, and I am sure they get their rewards from seeing things done in their local municipalities. The intent here is to raise the interest and the profile of municipal councillors across the province, to encourage involvement and participation.

I think it is a very worthy intent but I cannot support the bill as worded. As I pointed out, it does have a number of serious flaws in it. I can assure the member that the matter is being reviewed by AMO and, hopefully, some changes will come about.

Mr. Breaugh: This is one of those occasions when I think we have just been treated to a classic case of Liberalism, where the member rides both sides of an issue and comes down on neither. Let me try to do it the other way around, which I think is a little more appropriate. I think the principle of the bill, which is essentially what we are discussing today, is one that is worth supporting, so I will support it.

As the member noted, I observed when he introduced the bill today, there are some pretty serious flaws in here and it would take some considerable amount of work at the committee level to correct some of those problems. An obvious one would be that there are a lot of people who are elected at the local level who have been excluded by the bill, and I do not believe that was the intention. I would certainly want to see that there was provision for some pension fund application for people who provide that same kind of service on a school board or on a public utilities commission. I think there are a number of ways that one can go about that.

It is interesting that the member for Brantford (Mr. Neumann), when he spoke, gave the old litany that we have heard for the last 44 years about how you can already do this. The reason most councils are not really very interested in participating in what is called the Ontario municipal employees retirement system fund is that it is such a lousy pension plan. While many of them ironically deem it to be good enough for their employees, they cannot see it as a pension plan for themselves.

If the government wants to take this notion and expand upon it, maybe one of the best things it could do, something that would make that plan more attractive to people who are on councils, is to just make it more attractive in general so that people who are employees of a municipality could have a decent pension plan, which in my view they do not have now. There is an option that should be explored, to take the existing OMERS pension plan, which is already in place; and the attractiveness, of course, is that it does not require then that we set up a new mechanism and a new plan and all of that.

If we took that plan and made it a more decent retirement fund for all municipal employees, then we might well find that more municipal councils would like to participate in that process.

There are, I think, a couple of other things that have to be noted in here. There are a lot of different circumstances out there. One of the nice things about municipal politics in general, whether that is on a school board or a PUC or on a council, is that you do not all the time have to give up your current occupation to participate in the political process. It is one of the last places in Canadian politics now, I would say, where it is still possible in many communities to retain your employment and go off to a council meeting two or three nights a week.

The difficulty, of course, is that in many of our centres even local government is becoming a very complicated piece of business and it is not possible for many of our citizens to retain an active interest in a business or in their profession and remain on a local council. I do believe that sooner or later we are going to have to make some provision of this kind, better than what we now have, for local elected people.

I do not think there is any question about it, that it is not really desirable to have only those who are affluent serving in public office at the local level. I think the idea of politics in general is very simply to gather not the brightest, the best and the wealthiest but a good cross-section of your community, whether that is on a local council or in a Legislature like this one.

It does not mean that only the rich can serve in public office, or it should not; when you get it to that point, then you do have to deal with the mechanics of it all, that somehow people who serve on a local council have the same rights as everybody else does to some kind of pension plan. They do not, in my view, have that option now.

It is conceivable and it is possible, for example, to have a local council put all of the people on that council into the OMERS, the municipal employees retirement fund, but the difficulty, as the member for Brantford pointed out again, is another classic case of Liberalism.

So many rules and regulations are set in place that you cannot possibly attain the goal; the whole council must be involved in it, even though in a local municipality it might well only be appropriate for the one person who is full-time -- that might be a mayor or a reeve; he or she might be the only person on that council who has a legitimate need -- and yet the rules are structured in such a way that the whole council must go into the plan or no one can.

I think the member has admitted his faults when he introduced the bill. Sometimes the member for Durham East (Mr. Cureatz) does startle us -- he occasionally lapses into honesty, and it throws the whole system off here -- but he began the process this morning by admitting that the bill itself is flawed. I do not think that really should mean at this stage of the game that we throw the bill out completely. In normal parliamentary structure, the process would be very simply that at this stage we would debate in principle whether this is a good idea or not. l believe, quite frankly, that it is.

We would then send it to committee, and committee is where we would go through the bill clause by clause, pose various amendments, include other people who should have been included in this bill when it was drafted initially and perhaps give some consideration to setting up a separate fund, if you really want to do that, and I am not convinced that that is the best way to go.

I know that there is a need to incorporate into this type of legislation a lot of flexibility, and it seems to me that this bill as it is currently drafted really does not do that very well. It would require a lot of work at the committee stage to consider all of the options that have to be incorporated into this bill, to consider the different circumstances that people find themselves in when they are, I think, put at a political disadvantage by taking public office.

I would say that part of it is the most important part. We are probably at a stage in the development of our political process now in Ontario where there is a fairly large number of people who are put at a decided economic disadvantage because they choose to take some kind of public office. I do not believe that should be the case. I would always advocate that people who go into public office to make money are crazy and should never be elected. But I do not believe either that people who serve the public ought to pay an economic penalty.

I think there are all kinds of other penalties that we are willing to pay, and my wife and I have this argument annually -- that it is fair game to say that there is more demand on you, that you have less privacy, that people who have complaints have a right to bring them to you and you have an obligation as a public servant of some kind at some level to hear them and try to help them -- but it is unfair to put an economic disadvantage in place in addition to all of these other ones.

The purpose of the bill should simply be to see that people who serve on a local council have access to a reasonable pension plan, and if it means, as it does now, that they are cut off from that by virtue of the fact that they get elected to a local town council, that is wrong, in my view. In my own instance, for example, I know of a number of people who were teachers, who had a good teachers’ superannuation plan, who began their political careers by getting involved with politics at the local level.

Some of them have gotten involved to the extent that they cannot continue teaching; that means they are excluded from the teachers’ superannuation plan. Some of them -- again a myriad of regulations pops up on the scene -- can continue to pay into the teachers’ plan, so they have a retirement plan. Others, through circumstances beyond their control, are excluded from that. I believe that is a basic unfairness that at some point in time we have to address.

I commend the member for his initiative and for his honesty in putting forward a bill this morning that is flawed, but at this stage of debate we are supposedly debating the bill in principle. While we could go on at some length about all the things that are wrong with this bill, I believe the principle is correct. I believe that there ought to be put in place a pension plan of reasonable proportions that gives people at the local municipal level, whether that is a school board, a PUC or a council, or whatever the position might be, access to a decent pension plan. That is the principle of the bill, and that is the part that I would support.

Mr. Sterling: I would like to speak in support of my colleague’s bill. I think the member for Oshawa has portrayed it in its correct light in terms of dealing with this whole issue. As a member who in the past has represented over 13 municipalities, ranging from the city of Kanata to the town of Merrickville, where we had some 800 souls and five municipal politicians, I know there is indeed a wide range of need for municipal councillors to have an adequate retirement fund.

I think the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Municipal Affairs, the member for Brantford, has pointed out a significant problem with existing legislation dealing with OMERS. That particular problem was highlighted in a letter to me from the city of Kanata, which is a city of 30,000 people where even the mayor is not a full-time politician. It was felt by the majority of their council that they could not opt for the OMERS kind of pension, because the majority of the council could not afford to give up their private pension plans, which they had in the guise of a registered retirement savings plan.

What happens if you get involved in a pension plan, even if you have a contribution of $1 per year, is that it reduces your eligibility to contribute to an RRSP from $7,500 to $3,500. In most cases, when we are dealing with councillors who are getting paid relatively minor amounts of money, considering the loss of the access to their existing long-term pension plans, which they have set up for themselves, and the fact that they cannot count on being elected from time to time, then they would prefer to opt out of the OMERS plan.

I wrote to the Minister of Municipal Affairs, I believe it was three or four years ago, with regard to the problem of individuals within councils being able to opt out once a council had opted into the OMERS plan. Unfortunately, no action was taken at that time. I hope that by the member for Durham East bringing forward this bill, at the very least the government will deal with the particular problem of individuals opting out of the OMERS plan. I cannot understand why it would be a problem for an individual to opt out of that particular plan if he or she so chose.

One of the objections of the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Municipal Affairs, the member for Brantford, was the compulsory nature of this particular piece of legislation. I believe the compulsory nature of the legislation is a good thing. In many small municipalities, it is a very delicate matter for municipal politicians to vote themselves a pension when they are representing a very small area. I do not think the pension should be very large, if in fact their duties are not very heavy, but in a lot of cases, when you get into small towns of less than 1,000, you are really talking neighbour against neighbour.

I think the compulsory nature of this legislation should be there, with an option for a municipality to opt back out if that would be its choice. In other words, the positive step would be coming back out rather than going in. I also believe there should be an opting-out provision for each and every elected municipal politician across the province.

I will not take too much more time, other than to say that I think it is an important issue which the member for Durham East has raised. Sure, there are some flaws with regard to the bill, but there is nothing in it that cannot be remedied in a committee. I know from his statement to the Legislature that he is open to reasonable argument with regard to any part of the bill. I think what he wants to see is a fair break put forward for municipal councillors who, in general, are underpaid for what they do across this province, particularly in smaller municipalities. I laud him in his efforts to bring this issue to the fore.

Mr. Adams: I rise to speak against Bill 75, which seeks to establish a municipal council retirement fund and to provide retirement allowances for municipal councillors.

I must say that I feel some guilt in taking this position. My guilt comes principally from two causes. One is my respect for elected municipal officials and the other is my respect for the member for Durham East, the sponsor of the bill.

With regard to my respect for elected municipal officials, I would like to share with the members, if I might, my vision of politics and government in Canada.

When I think of politics and government in Canada, I think of a fortified hill. At the top of the hill, deep in the ground in a safe and comfortable c ave, is the federal government watching events on the outside on television. Around the outside of this fortified hill there is a system of trenches with comfortable bunkers in which we, the provincial elected officials, operate. We have to go out into the outside world and take a great deal of heat, but we do occasionally get back into our comfortable bivouacs and can rest.

Around the base of this fortified hill, there is a system of trenches which have no roofs and are very muddy, where the elected municipal officials live and work all their elected lives. Those in municipal office deserve all the support and encouragement we can give them. In connection with that support, they deserve an excellent benefits package, including retirement allowances.

Unfortunately and sadly, Bill 75 is not the vehicle for those retirement benefits for those very worthy people. As my colleague the member for Brantford has indicated, the reason for that is that the bill contains many serious errors. It is not worthy of its important cause.

The second reason for my guilt in opposing this bill, as I mentioned, is my respect for the bill’s sponsor, the member for Durham East. I have shared with members my vision of politics and government in Canada. Let me share my vision of the third party in this House.

In my vision of the third party, I see its members as a galaxy of stars. This is a galaxy of stars which, at the speed of light, is moving rapidly away from the galaxy in which the rest of us live. In that galaxy of stars, which is moving away so rapidly, in that galaxy of rapidly fading stars, I see the member for Durham East as a shining light. Although almost invariably we disagree with what he says when he speaks, we listen. We believe his intentions are excellent and his political instincts are excellent. We believe his cause is a really good one.

It is very unfortunate, as my colleague the member for Brantford has indicated, that he has chosen this dangerously flawed bill as the basis for his intentions on this particular occasion.

Our problems with the bill include the very vocabulary, the wording of the bill, the way it is phrased and its financial basis.

Mr. Villeneuve: He wants it in French.

Mr. Adams: Oui, certainement, monsieur.

First of all, let us look at the definition of “municipal,” for example. This deals with elected municipal officials. The

definitions become very important, as members know, in bills of this type. The definition of “municipal” simply does not address the extraordinary diversity of municipal government in Ontario today. As has been mentioned, where are the school boards? Where are the public utility commissions? Does it deal with small rural municipalities as well as it deals with urban municipalities? Does it deal with regional councils and so on? The very

definitions of the bill are limited and unworthy of its cause.

My colleague the member for Brantford indicated that the bill is actuarially unsound. This means simply that it will not work financially and my colleague from Brantford has indicated his reasons for that. To give a simple example from subsection 9(3), the figure of 75 per cent is mentioned for the pension levels. As we know, the highest legal amount for pension contributions under the Income Tax Act is 70 per cent. Why the five per cent difference? Thought has not been given to these figures.

Then we have to ask if we really need a separate pension fund for these worthy municipal officials at this time. With all the limitations that have been mentioned, OMERS is serving many municipal councillors well at this time. I would suggest, and I accept the limitations that have been mentioned by some colleagues, that it provides a better basis for improvement at the present time than does Bill 75.

Under OMERS, local councils have the opportunity to buy into the plan by resolution, and many have done so. They can buy in on a contributory basis or a noncontributory basis. For example, my colleague the member for Sudbury (Mr. Campbell) advises that in his city the councillors are all involved in OMERS and the city pays the full expense, so they obtain retirement benefits fully at the municipality’s expense.

My colleague the member for Mississauga West (Mr. Mahoney), on the other hand, says that in his municipality both the councillor and the municipality share the cost. He says to me that among other things the OMERS plan is very bad in terms of its portability. This is certainly something we should look at. We are very interested in elected representatives moving from one level of politics to another. We are also interested in people moving into elected office and moving back into their professions.

Mr. Wildman: As soon as possible.

Mr. Adams: The member can speak for himself.

It seems to me that OMERS is a flexible, easily available option which already exists and we should work to improve it.

To be honest, I was surprised to hear representatives of the third party supporting the compulsory aspect of this bill. Given their political persuasion, I am very surprised they would support something which would be compulsory for thousands and thousands of elected officials. It seems to me that any plan that deals with this complicated matter should at least have the flexibility of being optional, so we have concern with the compulsory aspect too.

Briefly, this is a worthy cause, but an ineffective and probably unnecessary response to that cause. I would say in closing, “Say it again, Sam, in a better way, and you would have our support.”

I must vote against Bill 75.

The Acting Speaker: Does any other honourable member wish to participate in the debate?

Mr. Cureatz: Are you indicating it is my time now to do my summing up?

The Acting Speaker: The honourable member has three minutes and five seconds to complete.

Mr. Cureatz: Four minutes would be great. The Clerk very kindly gave me another --

The member for Algoma (Mr. Wildman) wants to say a word or two.

The Acting Speaker: There are three minutes left. If you would care to speak, the member for Algoma.

Mr. Wildman: I appreciate the opportunity to participate. I enjoyed the speech just presented by my friend the member for Peterborough (Mr. Adams).

On second reading, we are dealing with the principle.

If my colleagues in the Liberal Party who have spoken on this private member’s bill indicate that they agree with the principle of providing pension benefits for municipal politicians who are out there every day in the trenches and deserve disability pay after the difficulties they are going to experience in municipal politics day to day, I think they might consider supporting the legislation in principle and then deal with questions of definition or even changes in percentages in committee and present amendments to the bill, or for that matter, consider the possibility that we might hold hearings at which members of municipal councils across the province might be able to make their views clear on what ways this legislation and the principle might be implemented.

I am sure my friend the member for Durham East would agree that would be an approach that might be taken, that we could benefit from the views of municipal politicians, participants at the municipal level across the province on ways this legislation might be improved. None of us who present legislation in this House, no matter how carefully drafted, ever claim that it is perfect and could not be amended to improve it.

I really do think that if we all value the work done by municipal politicians and if we recognize that more and more often it is difficult to maintain one’s own private profession while participating in political activity at the municipal level, then we should be attempting to protect the pension eligibility of people who present themselves for election at the municipal level. I call upon the members of the House to consider carefully that what we are discussing here today is the principle of providing pension benefits for municipal politicians, and that there is nothing in passing it on second reading that means we cannot amend the legislation to improve it.

Mr. Black: You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.

Mr. Wildman: I do not know whether he is talking about the legislation or the person who is presenting it.

Mr. Black: Both of them.

The Acting Speaker: Order.

Mr. Wildman: At any rate, I urge members to support the legislation in principle.

Mr. Cureatz: I know all members regret sorrowfully that I only have three minutes to conclude my remarks, but possibly at another time and another place, we will get back to the topic and I can centre in specifically about some of the remarks. I know I am really in the opposition when the member for Oshawa (Mr. Breaugh) and I agree with one another.

I say to all the Liberal back-benchers who are here that it is interesting where I get the support from -- indeed from the New Democratic Party, but more important from some members who have been around here for a good length of time such as the member for Oshawa and the member for Algoma. I do not see one cabinet minister of substance here this morning debating this very important issue affecting municipal councillors across Ontario. The member for Oshawa and the member for Algoma know very well --

Hon. Mr. Sorbara: Point of privilege, Madam Speaker.

The Acting Speaker: Order.

Mr. Cureatz: As long as it is not off my time, he can have the point of order.

Hon. Mr. Sorbara: I think the point of privilege is obvious. It is the comment made by the member from wherever he is from; I do not think anyone cares any more. But it would be appropriate, I think, for him to withdraw the remark.

The Acting Speaker: The member for Durham East, I am sure, is going to continue with a minute and 31 seconds left with --

Mr. Cureatz: One minute and 45 seconds because that was not a point of order, Madam Speaker, and I can add the extra few seconds to my time.

In any event, the more learned members of this learned assembly, the member for Oshawa and the member for Algoma -- who have been around for a while -- have grasped the gist of the legislation, that we are looking at the principle on second reading. We are looking at the idea of what we are trying to do.

I say to the member for Brantford and the member for Peterborough that they have kow-towed again to the four horsepeople of the apocalypse. They have again taken those members down the path of getting all that civil-servant staff and saying: “Look at the details of the legislation. Find out every doggone clause that is wrong with it and then you are going to speak against it.”

Members opposite have been told again they have no independence. Let them go back to their own municipalities – I say to the former mayor -- let them go back to their own councillors in their own ridings and say, “We love you all.” As the member for Oshawa says, it is typical Liberalism. I am not as sarcastic as he is, nor could ever be. I just say it is typical government. Members opposite are playing the back-bench role again, being told by the Four Horsepeople what to do. Let them make sure they go back and support the legislation. We will be looking with great interest to see if the --

The Acting Speaker: Order. The time allotted for this ballot item has expired.

CULTURAL EXCHANGES

Mr. Daigeler moved resolution 14:

The Acting Speaker (Miss Roberts): The honourable member has up to 20 minutes for his presentation and may reserve any portion of it for a windup.

Mr. Daigeler: Thank you, Madam Speaker. May I first of all thank you and the other members of this House for having given unanimous consent to replace my earlier private member’s motion with a new one. I regret very much not having been able to address the functioning of abortion committees under the 1969 federal abortion law. However, in the light of the recent Supreme Court of Canada decision declaring these committees unconstitutional, my previous motion clearly has been superseded.

Nevertheless, I wish to state my firm expectation that the federal government will move quickly to introduce new legislation that will protect the rights of the foetus while respecting the rights of pregnant women.

The concern that I wish to address in the motion before us today arises out of personal experiences during my election campaign. I am sure, however, that my own experience was shared by many others across this province. Like myself, many members of this House will have met during the election Ontario citizens who expressed grave reservations about the extension of French-language services through Bill 8.

For some, this hesitancy was based on a lack of information about the actual government intentions. Many others, at least in eastern Ontario, were opposed to francophone rights on less defensible grounds. They saw, and continue to see, the extension of francophone services as an unwarranted expense for a minority and an intrusion into the accustomed privileges of the anglophone majority. This attitude, which I regret greatly, was expressed too often and in too strident a tone for us to neglect this phenomenon. We cannot sidestep the feelings and perceptions about our country which lie at the root of this attitude.

Comme je l’ai indiqué dans ma motion, un moyen important d’améliorer la compréhension mutuelle de personnes venant de diverses cultures, est d’entretenir des contacts interpersonnels réguliers et fréquents. Mon expérience personnelle en tant qu’étudiant en Europe, et les efforts gouvernementaux depuis les années 70, nous confirment que les programmes d’échanges sont d’excellents moyens de bâtir une conscience nouvelle, ainsi que de la tolérance et de la compréhension interculturelle partout dans le pays.

For the benefit of this House, for the viewers on television and for the readers of Hansard, I would like to give a brief overview of the relevant provincial programs currently in place and of their limits. I am grateful to Ann Porter of the legislative research service, who has prepared this information at my request.

Ontario government initiatives include, first of all, a cultural exchange program. This program is delivered by the Ministry of Culture and Communications. It includes activities such as dance, theatre, printmaking, concerts and so on. For example, last year the ministry supported Quebec artists working in Sault Ste. Marie and Ontario artists working in Magog.

Programs delivered by the Ministry of Education include the Ontario-Quebec student exchange program where 16- to 17-year-old high school students are twinned with someone in the other province. The students reside in each other’s homes and attend their twin’s school for three months. From all accounts, this is a very successful and popular initiative. In 1986-87, 184 Ontario students were involved in this exchange.

The Ontario-Quebec class twinning program also falls under the direction of the Ministry of Education. There the exchange takes place through correspondence and information sharing; 81 classes took

part last year.

Finally, there is the possibility for school principals to go to Quebec for a week. Only two principals participated in this program last year.

The Ministry of Colleges and Universities funds student and staff exchanges at the community college level; 150 individuals from each province participated in this initiative last year. At the university level, grants are available for joint research projects for exchanges between Ontario and Quebec faculty, staff and students. Finally, for graduate studies in the other province we have 10 fellowships available.

Third, there are exchange programs for civil servants organized by the Ontario human resources secretariat. Summer student exchange programs give 100 university students from each province an opportunity to work for 13 weeks in the civil service of the other province. A civil servant exchange program is targeted for people in senior management positions. Only two individuals participated in 1986-87.

Some limitations of the program have also been identified. These limits include the fact that a fairly limited group of students are involved, both in terms of background and geographic location. An evaluation of the 1978 summer exchange programs done by the Bilingual Exchange Secretariat found that only one per cent of the participants from Ontario came from homes where the father was in an unskilled occupation or was unemployed, while 47 per cent came from homes where the father was a professional or in a high-level management position.

They also found that visible minorities were virtually absent from the program and that members of nonvisible ethnic groups participated only in very small numbers. In addition, only a limited number of Ontario school boards participated in the exchanges.

The tendency of the programs to draw on a limited and small group of students was confirmed to the parliamentary research office by an Ontario government official who pointed out that it is mainly students from middle class backgrounds who are able to participate in the summer exchange programs. They are the only ones who can afford not to work in the summer.

Finally, figures from the Ontario government on the number of program participants indicate that it is a fairly small percentage of the total population who are able to take

part in such programs. This limits the ability of such programs to influence overall attitudes towards the other language group.

The principal formal structure through which these programs have been encouraged and co-ordinated since 1969 has been the Ontario-Quebec Commission for Co-Operation. The creation of this body grew out of a recommendation by the Ontario Advisory Committee on Confederation at its meeting in April 1965. Already at that time the committee suggested that one way to increase mutual understanding and respect between francophones and anglophones would be through a program of exchanges.

As a result, the Ontario-Quebec Permanent Commission was established based on the firm belief “that increased co-operation between our two provinces is essential to the continued strength of the country.”

In terms of programs, the 1969 agreement specified the following areas: language training, government administration, education and culture. As I described earlier, a good many activities were put in place in these fields; however, with the coming into power of the Parti québécois, interest in the commission waned. Since 1985, relations between the two provinces have changed dramatically. As a result, a new will exists within the two governments to revitalize exchanges and the Ontario-Quebec Commission for Co-Operation.

The first full meeting of all members of the revitalized commission took place last April in Quebec City. At that time, the mandate of the commission was renewed and priorities were established. I applaud and strongly support the renewed objectives of the commission which were phrased in this way: “To foster better understanding and co-operation between the people and governments of the two provinces.” This objective is affirmed “as a part of the larger goal of ensuring that a relationship of good will, respect and trust is firmly maintained between Ontario and Quebec.”

Especially in view of the limitations of the current exchange programs, I am very pleased to note that the commission has been asked to set new directions and to develop new co-operative ventures. Specifically, I wish to bring to the attention of this House that, as stated in its renewed mandate, the commission will sponsor exchange programs and activities which enable large numbers of people and groups to experience the other province’s language and culture and to share expertise and undertake joint projects. The mandate makes a commitment that these programs and activities will be in a wide range of areas.

The description of existing programs and of the plans of the Ontario-Quebec Commission for Co-operation clearly shows that much good work is already being done, and I congratulate the premiers of both provinces as well as the senior bureaucrats involved in the renewal of the Ontario-Quebec commission. At the same time, the limits of the present efforts are also evident. For one, from the material provided to me it appears that the renewed commitment to exchange programs still is somewhat tenuous.

I am hopeful that a strong motion from this House will provide the added political incentive to implement the renewed mandate of the Ontario-Quebec Commission for Co-operation with vigour and persistence

At the same time, I feel there is room to expand this mandate even further or, more specifically to expand the activities which flow from the committee’s main objectives. One shortcoming that we must be especially careful about is the unintended upper-class focus of the present programs. Equally disturbing is the fact that so few members of ethnic minorities, especially visible minorities, benefit from the exchanges. I urge the ministries responsible for the current programs to make a special effort to include these groups in their allocations. I hope steps will be taken to increase the participation of all Ontario citizens, whatever their economic, ethnic or religious background.

Une nouvelle façon de promouvoir un intérêt et une participation plus répandus est la mise en place de fonds gouvernementaux qui encouragent les municipalités québécoises et ontariennes à signer des contrats de coopération et d’échanges. Plusieurs municipalités canadiennes ont déjà choisi des villes partout dans le monde comme partenaires et amies à long terme. Ma proposition d’aujourd’hui nous encourage à mettre cette expérience en application à l’intérieur de notre propre pays. N’est-ce pas le bon moment de profiter du fait heureux que, dans la province de Québec et ailleurs au pays, nous avons des communautés d’une culture autre que la civilisation anglaise?

My vision of municipal exchanges includes sports, recreation and cultural groups from one city making regular visits to the other. It includes exchanges at the political level, exchanges of business and professional groups and obviously among schools. All of these contacts should be aimed at relatively large numbers of people and encourage direct and ongoing contacts of individuals. One of the programs that has proven very popular in Europe is intercity games involving the people of each town in fun-filled tests of physical and intellectual skills. I hasten to add that language has proven no barrier to the creative minds of interested citizens and municipal planners.

In concluding, as I see it, the twinning of cities and towns will overcome that major shortcoming of existing programs, which is their appeal to a relatively small group of often already committed individuals. The involvement of groups will ensure that large numbers of people from all walks of life can learn about each other’s hopes and aspirations. In this way, we will usher in a new era of understanding and respect between anglophones and francophones in this country. In the interest of a better tomorrow, I invite all members of this House to support my motion.

M. Allen: Cela me fait plaisir de participer à ce débat à l’égard des échanges entre les anglophones et les francophones de notre pays et de discuter de la question du jumelage des municipalités ontariennes et québécoises.

On se souvient du fait que l’histoire de ces projets reste très troublée, que c’est une histoire fondée dans une sorte de double tragédie qui est à la base de notre pays. C’est la tragédie d’un peuple qui a perdu son pays dans une conquête sur le champ de bataille et, deuxièmement, la tragédie, pour les anglophones, du fait que leur triomphe était en bataille, en guerre. Donc, nous avons eu à la base de notre histoire, malheureusement, un esprit d’hostilité entre les anglophones et les francophones.

J’apprécie beaucoup les recherches que le député de Nepean (M. Daigeler) a faites pour nous dans ce document. Il a présenté des programmes d’échanges qui éxistent maintenant entre les deux provinces, et c’est une base sur laquelle il est possible d’aller de l’avant, à l’avenir, avec des projets de jumelage, que j’appuie beaucoup.

Mais je pense qu’il est peut-être nécessaire de souligner l’importance des relations jour après jour, dans nos communautés, entre les francophones et les anglophones, municipalité par municipalité, partout en Ontario: à Sudbury, à Hamilton, ici à Toronto, etc.

It is a very interesting experience, I think, to grow up as an anglophone in this country. I grew up in British Columbia, and one of the most interesting aspects of my education in British Columbia was the excitement that I had conveyed to me through my teachers of the history of the movement of French peoples into North America, and particularly into what became British North America and the terrain that we call our own country.

It is that experience which made me, as a person, a citizen who inherited more than, if you like, my own lineal descent as an anglophone would have provided me. I became a participant in the annals of Cartier and Champlain, in the stories of Montcalm, Dollard des Ormeaux and all the great heroes of the development and the establishment of French culture in British North America.

It has been possible for me, as an anglophone, to maintain that in my own family: as one of the first families in the city of Regina, when we lived in Saskatchewan, to participate in immersion programs; since then to have my own children involved in some of the exchange programs the member for Nepean (Mr. Daigeler) has outlined and in fact to do a certain amount of twinning ourselves, as we took up residence in a French community in Quebec.

We experienced at first hand the kind of personal growth that could come from getting to know everyone from journalists to professors to workers of all kinds who lived in the community around about us. We experienced that on an ongoing basis, shovelling snow in the midst of a snowstorm with our neighbours and having ongoing, day-by-day exchanges. It is an experience that I would not exchange for anything I have had in any other part of my life’s experience, nor would my family, my children and my wife.

What the member has put before us as a proposal for the twinning of communities would, I hope, be more than just a matter of a program that provides for occasional, very brief exchanges, but could perhaps grow into a kind of exchange, a kind of twinning that is very regular, very ongoing and permeates the daily life of the communities in question in important ways so that it is never forgotten.

I think one of the great secrets of our country and of our country’s strength is that we have the bicultural and bilingual foundation we have and that it is possible to generate out of that experience an even richer multilingual and multicultural experience and to place our country in the front ranks of those whose relations with all the world are enriched and placed on a positive basis, by virtue of our language capacity, to intimately perceive the problems of other peoples and to relate to them in matters of trade, as in commerce, our cultural and political international life in ways that are enriching to the whole world.

When one begins a program like this one the member suggests, the consequences can be far-reaching indeed. I think it is a very healthy and happy motion that we have before us, and I am happy to support it.

Mr. Villeneuve: It is also a pleasure for me to rise and participate in the debate on the notice of motion 14 by the member for Nepean, and I congratulate him on bringing it forth. I realize he had to have a very rapid change in motion due to events that occurred.

Speaking of communication, I certainly hope that he and many other Liberal back-benchers with a great concern for the rights of the unborn did have some input in some of the decisions that were taken rather quickly by the Minister of Health (Mrs. Caplan) in this province.

I believe communication is of primary importance, particularly to people involved in politics. There are times, I suppose, when members of the government in particular would rather dissociate themselves from decisions that have been made from time to time. That is understandable, as I have been privileged to sit on both sides of this Legislative Assembly.

The member for Sudbury (Mr. Campbell), elected on September 10, as a member of the Association of Municipalities of Ontario participated in a resolution from AMO strongly encouraging the government of Ontario to not make the municipal option regarding Sunday openings one that would be in effect. Yet this government has chosen to go totally against what many back-bench members of that particular party believe in.

Similarly, we must communicate a great deal, and very soon, on the recent decision by the Supreme Court of Canada pertaining to the rights of women and the rights of the unborn. I think communication must be precipitated as quickly as possible.

Yesterday, for instance, in talking about Sunday liquor shopping, the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations (Mr. Wrye) said in this Legislature that the chairman of the of the Liquor Control Board of Ontario, Mr. Ackroyd, should be asked and should be making the decision. However, after an admission by the Premier (Mr. Peterson), the honourable minister was briefed very quickly and the message that came out in the corridors was very different.

In that light, that is the reason I have requested that the implementation of Bill 8, which was supported unanimously by this Legislature, go to an all-party committee: so we can communicate and bring the message to those people in particular who are concerned that they will be negatively affected by the putting into place of Bill 8. These may be concerns that need not be there, but the communication has been lacking. I believe we, as politicians, certainly we in eastern Ontario -- and the member for Nepean did touch on this in his initial presentation -- have to communicate, and it has to begin at home.

Mr. D. R. Cooke: So where do you stand on Sunday shopping?

The Acting Speaker: Order.

Mr. Villeneuve: I glad the member brought up Sunday shopping. It is a matter of communication, and I was quoted very much out of context from a January --

The Acting Speaker: Order. I remind the honourable member that if you wish to speak, you must speak to the resolution that is before the House and please ignore the comments that have been put to you from across the floor.

Mr. Villeneuve: I appreciate that, Madam Speaker, but it all revolves around communication or the manipulation of communication. That can be a great problem and it can create situations that are not really what was intended. l am sorry if I deviated from the motion we are presently debating.

In

summary -- I have agreed with my friend, colleague and neighbour the member for Prescott and Russell (Mr. Poirier), who wants to have a few words to say -- we must improve communication, particularly between our two official languages and groups within those two official language groups.

Just as a final comment: this morning, the Minister of Education (Mr. Ward) is in Penetanguishene making a statement pertaining to students in école secondaire LeCaron. I understand from speaking to people in that community that they did not know the minister was to be there, other than having read in the paper yesterday that the Minister of Education was to make a statement in Penetanguishene today.

Again, communication, I believe, should have been improved and can be improved. I will support this motion and I hope we can improve communications internally as well as with our neighbouring provinces.

Mrs. LeBourdais: I am pleased to speak to this motion this morning, as it is one I wholeheartedly support. Being an anglophone by birth, born in a francophone province, now bearing my husband’s francophone name although he speaks not a word of French, gives me, I feel, a rather special understanding of a truly anglophone-francophone mix. It is one I want to encourage, not only in myself by taking advantage of the French studies program available to members of the Legislature, but also by encouraging my daughter, Lisa, in her ongoing studies of French.

I recently had the opportunity to bring greetings on behalf of the Premier at the inauguration of an organization of francophones of non-Canadian birth. I was surprised to see Haitians, Vietnamese, Belgians, Swiss, as well as others, all brought together in celebration of their francophone heritage, now all a part of the Ontario mosaic.

Later this month, along with a number of my colleagues from the Legislature, I will have the opportunity to be a part of an exchange program to Quebec City. During our stay, we will have the opportunity to meet with our Quebec counterparts and business leaders, while at the same time becoming familiar with the Quebec assembly. The visit will also expose us on a continual basis to the French language.

This program has come about under the auspices of the Ontario-Quebec Commission for Co-operation, an umbrella structure for a number of cultural and/or educational exchanges in governmental affairs.

Similarly, my daughter, Lisa, will next month have the opportunity to participate in the Forum for Young Canadians in Ottawa. This is a program open to interested high school students from across Canada to actively participate in a week-long curriculum designed to expose the students to the parliamentary system at the federal level. Anglophone students are given the opportunity to room with francophone students and expand their own French capabilities.

I know each of us will benefit enormously from these experiences, and we will be able to contribute more as a result.

Les Ontariens et les Québécois peuvent profiter des programmes d’échanges qui existent non seulement pour les étudiants, peu importe leurs ages, mais aussi pour les journalistes, les dirigeants, les fonctionnaires, les parlementaires et ceux qui travaillent dans le milieu culturel et artistique.

Dans le domaine des relations coopératives entre l’Ontario et le Québec, il y a trois accords qui sont sur le point d’être signés. Ceux-ci incluent: l’achat de sièges dans les institutions québécoises des hautes études; les accords environnementaux concernant l’élimination des déchets toxiques et la recherche et le développement coopératifs; et un accord visant à promouvoir conjointement le tourisme international. On pourrait aussi inaugurer des programmes coopératifs dans les domaines des logiciels informatiques et des entreprises économiques conjointes.

On a créé des programmes de jumelage au ministère de l’Éducation. Après que les classes sont jumelées, elles peuvent échanger des photographies, des dessins, des films, des enregistrements d’activités ou de musique dans la salle de classe, des vidéos d’événements culturels, etc. L’objectif du programme est de permettre aux jeunes de mieux se connaître mutuellement dans une atmosphère favorisant l’échange d’idées. Les buts sont d’encourager les jeunes à mieux comprendre la diversité culturelle et linguistique et à développer de la tolérance.

The bonds of friendship created by ongoing interaction between anglophones and francophones can be enduring ones. This past weekend my family had the occasion to rekindle a friendship dating back over 40 years, a friendship that joined two families, each very reflective of the francophone and anglophone experience of the mid-1940s.

One family, rather typically Quebecois, is a Roman Catholic family of 10 children headed by a father whose sole income was the milk route he travelled each day, complete with horse and buggy. The other family is a smaller Anglo-Saxon family with the father employed by an American multinational oil company. Despite the passage of time, distance and changing lifestyles, the friendship has endured and strengthened to the enrichment and betterment of all.

It is this kind of bonding between people that the government of Ontario must continue to encourage. The continuation of twinning programs, particularly at the municipal level, the grass-roots level, if you will, will work to develop such bonds and ultimately erode any of the ill feelings between anglophone and francophone communities. As legislators, we must work to further develop and encourage any steps that will facilitate the process.

Like my colleague the member for Nepean, I too came across individuals during the past election campaign who expressed their open hostility towards the francophone community. This arose from the government’s support of the extension of French-language services to communities throughout Ontario. It was my personal experience that these individuals were failing to realize the duality of this country and the right of both groups to avail themselves of necessary service in either of Canada’s two official languages. Obviously, my name became a red flag.

The remnants of early exchanges are long lasting. For instance, if one travels to the interior of British Columbia one will find a LeBourdais Park, a LeBourdais Street, and even some native Canadians who bear the name LeBourdais, because earlier in our times there was a legislator in British Columbia by the name of LeBourdais and the Inuit people have simply taken their name from a prominent Canadian of the time, which was a fairly commonplace occurrence

I encourage this government to continue to create and develop ongoing programs that will further the spirit of goodwill and understanding that can, in the long run, only help to enrich citizens of both provinces.

Mlle Martel: Au début, je voudrais faire des félicitations au député de Nepean. Je sais bien qu’il a fait du travail à propos de l’amélioration des relations entre les francophones et les anglophones en Ontario et au Canada. J’espère qu’à la fin de ce débat, et avec les idées qu’il a pressées dans ce document, le gouvernement de l’Ontario aura des idées pour établir d’autres échanges, de nouveaux échanges, et puis pour renouveler et peut-être améliorer les échanges qui existent maintenant.

I want to tell the member for Nepean that we will be supporting his resolution and we will be proud to do so. As a participant in one of the exchanges he has outlined in this program, I spent a very wonderful summer several years ago with a girl from Quebec. We spent two weeks there and two weeks in my own home town. It was certainly a well worthwhile experience that I would encourage for all young people and, indeed, for all Ontarians.

I certainly gained a better appreciation of the French culture and of the French heritage, which I did not have living in Ontario, even though I had studied French during elementary school. It was certainly an added benefit to actually live in that community, live in that home, experience and be a part of that. I would encourage that for anyone who has the time and, indeed, in that case, the money to do it.

We agree with the resolution the member has presented and, certainly, this government should look towards establishing further twinning experiences between Ontario and Quebec municipalities. However, having said that, there are three points that I would like to raise concerning this whole question.

The first is that he has outlined, and most members have read about, the large number of programs that are in place, both on a provincial and a federal level, and indeed presented by private organizations. He has outlined -- and so I will not go over that again -- those programs that work well, that have a large number of participants and where the reaction back to the administrators of the program has been very positive.

We also have, on the other hand, a number of programs that are not working well, in particular, the exchange of principals where only two principals actually utilized the program that was in place. There was a second concerning the civil servant exchange program, which I hope in the future will proceed a little bit better but which up to this point has not been working very effectively.

What I would like to say to him -- and that is the same, both on a provincial and federal level, with the programs in both -- is that I hope we do, in fact, look at the programs which are in place and see how we can improve upon those. For instance, for those that are not working well -- and there are a number that are not -- having a review of what is going wrong, what is needed, are we not expanding the program to enough people, and how can we then present it to a larger group of individuals and indeed try to change some of the programs which do not have a positive impact at this time, and reach large numbers who are not using the program that is already in place.

Second, for those programs that are in place and are working well, I would encourage the government, both provincially and federally, to continue with those programs and to again review how they can be made even more effective. There are two in particular, I recall, where the budget has been doubled for 1988, and the government is expecting a much larger number of participants to apply and try to partake of that. I hope that in the process of the government’s setting up new programs, it can go back and look at the ones that are in place to see how they can be improved upon and how those ones that are working well can be further expanded.

On the second point I would like to make, I go back to the member for Hamilton West of my own party, who stated that what we also have to look at is improving our relations here at home. It seems to me that it is a wonderful idea to travel to Quebec, and certainly if I can on someone else’s money I do appreciate that. In fact, I will be going with a government group, so l am quite pleased about that. But I do think we can establish those types of programs here in Ontario and that we can, in fact, look at municipalities which exist in Ontario where we can provide a twinning now.

In particular, in northern Ontario, in the eastern part of Ontario and in and about the Ottawa region we do have the facility and the items in place to establish those types of programs before we go outside of the province. I must say that in many of the municipalities we have everything in place that would make those exchanges very effective and very enjoyable. We have the municipalities working in the second language, which is French, and they use that in all the administration and in their educational facilities.

We also have the establishment of many cultural institutions. I look at my own community, for example, where there are a number of events and festivities that Franco-Ontarians present, which all the people in Sudbury can partake of and participate in. I must say that I think what also exists in Ontario, although it will have to be fostered further, is a spirit for that type of co-operation. I think if we look into our own province and see how we can go about establishing those types of programs, we would certainly be as well off as we would be travelling to Quebec for those types of exchanges.

I think it is awfully important -- l go back to my experience during the election as well -- that we look at home first and start to broaden our ties and make those ties better. That might entail at least providing that type of service or organization in Ontario, that under the minister responsible for francophone affairs (Mr. Grandmaître) we develop an umbrella organization made up of anglophones and francophones who can go out and start to review the programs that are in place and work with municipalities in the province to try to establish that twinning so that we have input from both communities.

I think both communities would probably be better off working with each other and setting up the programs that people in Ontario will benefit better from, or better than we do at present.

So I hope that when we look at exchanges between provinces, we also seriously consider now exchanges of people within our own province. I think it is very important and necessary that we as legislators start to move towards bettering the relationships between francophones and anglophones in Ontario.

I want to bring up several concerns I had with the projects that we might look at and hope that the government, if it is going to proceed in this manner, will consider several things. The member for Nepean mentioned that the present programs in place were very much limited to a certain segment of society. In effect, we have had a great deal of students, teachers, administrators, educational institutions and perhaps public servants who utilize the programs that are in place. Certainly, there is a much broader

section of society that we have to start to appeal to to use these types of programs if we are going to make them of benefit to all Ontarians.

The second problem seemed to be that the programs were geared very much to a certain segment in society. It was mainly middle-class students or young people who were able to benefit. We have to look at programs where we can entice or enhance participation by visible and nonvisible minorities and by kids whose backgrounds are of a father who is not in the professions or who is not in a high-level administration setting. We have to start appealing to a broader group so that relations among more Ontarians can be enhanced.

I certainly think the programs are good, but we need a great deal more work to be done in order to appeal to a much broader cross-section of society. I say to the member, because I know he will probably want to wrap up and my other friend wants to speak, that we will support this resolution, but I hope the government will take into consideration some of the concerns I have outlined.

M. Poirier: Je voudrais féliciter mon collègue le député de Nepean justement parce que je l’appuie fortement dans la présentation de sa résolution.

Par contre, je dois reconnaître qu’à

titre de Franco-Ontarien, je me sens un peu délaissé par les mots, tels qu’on les retrouve dans le nom de ma circonscription, lequel est écrit uniquement en anglais, bien sûr. Étant le député de la circonscription la plus francophone de l’Ontario, et vu le problème de communication que nous avons toujours entre les Anglo-Ontariens et les Franco-Ontariens, j’appuie les énonces de mes collègues des autres partis, qui mentionnent également qu’il faut commencer à établir une bonne communication chez nous d’abord, en Ontario.

Au moment ou on se parle, il y a des individus et il y a des groupes à l’échelle de l’Ontario, mais surtout dans l’Est de l’Ontario -- ironiquement, dans une zone très bilingue -- qui travaillent à faire la mésentente, à empêcher que les anglophones et les francophones puisse mieux se connaître. Et ça, je trouve ça fort regrettable.

The village where I come from, Alfred, is 96 per cent French-speaking. If you want to live in a environment, come to Alfred. Come to Saint-Isidore-de-Prescott, which is 97 per cent French. Come to Dubreuilville. Come to Hearst. Come to Saint-Eugene, Sainte-Rose-de-Prescott, Cheney, Limoges, L’Orignal, where Champlain stopped in 1608 on his way up to the Ottawa River. How many Ontarians know that Toronto is sitting on the site of Fort-Rouillé from the French regime days? We, as a government caucus, sit in room 247 below this huge painting that depicts Fort-Rouillé.

Come to Prescott and Russell, go to the other areas of French-speaking Ontario, but I implore the members, let us start to better the communications between anglophone Ontarians and francophone Ontarians, and then we will go elsewhere to learn even more about our fellow Canadians: Quebecois, Franco-Tenois from the Northwest Territories, Franco-Yukonnais from the Yukon, Fransaskois from Saskatchewan, Franco-Colombiens, Acadiens. Let us know each other better as Canadians first. I think that is very important. I congratulate my colleague and I bring this small amendment.

Mr. Daigeler: I wish very briefly to conclude. I think some very excellent points have been made by the members who have shared their personal experiences and their personal very moving hopes and aspirations for a better relationship between francophones and anglophones in this country. I am certainly very supportive of the idea to start right here at home. I am sure that as we pass on the documentation from Hansard to the appropriate officials and ministers, they will take note of this point.

I am very pleased and very encouraged that we have such strong support for a renewed relationship between these two groups as expressed in this House. I wish to thank all of those who have spoken and I ask that all of us work together in a nonpartisan fashion to improve the relationship so that we can look forward and be an example, I would say, to the world of different cultures, different languages and different people working together, being enriched by each other, and in this way to live in peace, in harmony, acceptance, respect and tolerance.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I encourage all members to support unanimously my resolution.

MUNICIPAL COUNCIL RETIREMENT ALLOWANCES ACT

Mr. Speaker: It is so close to 12 o’clock that we will deal first with ballot item 9.

If any members are opposed to a vote on this motion, will they please rise. Seeing none, the question before the House is that Mr. Cureatz has moved second reading of Bill 75.

Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

Motion agreed to.

Mr. Speaker: We will now deal with ballot item 10. Mr. Daigeler has moved resolution 14.

Mr. Neumann: Mr. Speaker, a point of order.

Mr. Speaker: On what matter?

Mr. Neumann: On the vote on ballot item 9.

Mr. Speaker: It has been completed and carried.

The next item will be ballot item 10. If any members wish to --

Mr. Fleet: Mr. Speaker, a point of order.

Mr. Speaker: Point of order.

Mr. Fleet: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: I believe members of this House did not appreciate a vote was taking place to some extent. Certainly, I did not hear a call completely from where I was sitting. My impression was there was an attempt to raise a point of order a moment ago on the same issue. Clearly, what is desired in this place is that a vote represent the will of the people who are here.

Mr. Speaker: I appreciate that. However, I do distinctly remember stating, “Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?” As usual, as calmly and as quietly as possible, I let my eyes move around the chambers. I saw no members rising and I heard no objections. Therefore, I recognized that the motion had been passed. It has already had second reading. I hope the members are agreeable to that procedure because that is set out in our standing orders.

Mr. J. B. Nixon: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: It may be just the acoustics of the hall. I did hear at this end a “nay,” which may have been inaudible at that end of the hall. I think I have some concurrence from the members here and would ask that you reconsider.

Mr. Speaker: I certainly can. I listened very carefully and you said you thought you heard some. I listened very carefully and did not hear any. Therefore, I feel the matter has been dealt with fairly and according to our standing orders.

CULTURAL EXCHANGES

Mr. Speaker: We will now deal with ballot item 10. If any members are opposed to a vote on this resolution, will they please rise. Seeing none, Mr. Daigeler has moved resolution 14.

Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?

Motion agreed to.

The House recessed at 12:03 a.m.

The House resumed at 1:30 p.m.

ELECTION FINANCES

Mr. Speaker: I beg to inform the House that I have today laid upon the table recommendations from the Commission on Election Finances, pursuant to subsection 4(3) of the Election Finances Act, 1986, and those reports will be in the members’ mailboxes.

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

1988 OLYMPIC WINTER GAMES

Mr. McLean: The eyes of the world will be focused on Calgary, Alberta, beginning on Saturday, as amateur athletes from approximately 56 nations gather to compete in the 15th Olympic Winter Games. On behalf of my party, I would like to extend a hearty welcome to those young athletes and congratulate them on the stunning performances we no doubt will witness in the many individual and team efforts scheduled during the first winter games to be held in Canada.

Our congratulations will be extended to all of the participants, win or lose, because they have already proven their abilities by making their countries’ Olympic teams. Win or lose, they are all champions and are splendid examples of athletes who have demonstrated world-class excellence in their sport and conduct consistent with the ideas of amateur Olympic sport.

I would also like to wish Toronto’s Tony Reis good luck as he leads his team of Portuguese-Canadian bobsledders as they represent the country of Portugal.

I extend best wishes to the world men’s figure-skating champion, Brian Orser, in his quest to capture a gold medal. l know Brian is the world’s best and I am confident that he will have more success than his dad, Butch Orser, who tried unsuccessfully to skate his way into the riding of Simcoe East for the Liberals during last September’s provincial election.

HOSPITAL BEDS

Mr. Furlong: I have today, on behalf of the board of directors of Whitby General Hospital, delivered to the Minister of Health (Mrs. Caplan) a package containing a petition that reads as follows: “We, the undersigned, petition the Honourable Elinor Caplan, Minister of Health, to implement a major acute care expansion program to meet the space needs of this community as one of the fastest-growing communities in Ontario.” This petition contains 12,866 signatures.

In addition, I have submitted 427 individual signed cards expressing the view that Whitby General Hospital urgently needs to expand and incorporate additional active treatment beds. Also in the package were 48 signed newspaper clippings and 42 cards signed by emergency care patients.

When the hospital first opened in the late 1960s, the town of Whitby had a population of 15,000. Today that figure has risen to 51,885, and the region of Durham forecasts a population for Whitby of almost 90,000 by the year 2011.

Construction on Whitby General Hospital started in 1968 with an acute care bed allocation of 65 beds. Today, 20 years later, the number of active beds remains the same.

The board of directors of Whitby General Hospital, supported by resolutions from both the region of Durham and the corporation of the town of Whitby, strongly implores the minister to consider the acute care bed allocation to Whitby General Hospital.

MUNICIPAL ROADS

Mr. Farnan: I would like to bring to the attention of this House the way the provincial government has put the brakes on road subsidies to Ontario municipalities. Although the province is supposed to provide 50 per cent of the funding for building and maintaining roads, the city of Cambridge has been forced to find an additional $650,000 this year to make up for a provincial shortfall. Historically, Cambridge has had to contribute more than its 50 per cent share towards road maintenance. Over the past four years, government subsidies have increased by only a total of 6.59 per cent, hardly what I would call keeping up with inflation.

The provincial government should stop siphoning much-needed tax dollars out of its own allocation budget. The gas tax, which was designed to pay for necessary road repairs, is no longer used solely for that purpose. Municipalities are shouldering more and more of the responsibility for roads, but have no vehicle for collecting the necessary revenue.

In 1986, $1.77 billion was collected by the provincial government through taxes related to motoring, but only $644 million of that was spent on roads. The money being spent today is one third of what it was 10 years ago. Allocations must be increased to at least match the present inflation rate so that cities like Cambridge can maintain the status of their roads. Otherwise, we will end up with winding dirt tracks fraught with potholes.

TAXES

Mr. Harris: This mini-session has lasted four days. In that time, we have learned the government of Ontario is not responsible for Sunday shopping and not responsible for protecting the rights of unborn children. Yesterday, the response of the Treasurer (Mr. R. F. Nixon) to the federal budget showed us that the government of Ontario is not even responsible for its own budget. The Treasurer wants to increase taxes to continue his spending spree and say to the people of Ontario, “The devil and Mike Wilson made me do it.”

The fact that the rate of growth in federal transfer payments will decline is not news. Every provincial Treasurer has been aware of that policy for several years. The blame for any tax increases lies entirely with the government of Ontario and its free-spending ways. Reduced federal transfers have been more than offset by increased provincial revenues, which have jumped by over $9 billion.

Given the strong performance of the Ontario economy and the consequent growth in government revenues, no tax increases would be required had this government demonstrated even the slightest commitment to expenditure controls. The responsibility for any tax increases will lie solely with this Liberal government right here in Ontario, its free-spending policies and its lack of any spending controls on the budgetary policies it has brought in.

TIMBERJACK INC.

Mr. Tatham: I want to share some good news with members about a manufacturing firm I have watched grow for the past 40 years: Timberjack, in Woodstock, Oxford county. Their employment is up over 25 per cent in the past two years, to 463 people. Sales in 1987 were over $145 million. But listen to this: productivity per employee has risen 39 per cent in the past two years. Timberjack designs, builds and sells logging equipment around the world. They have shipped over 30,000 vehicles to 78 countries and 60 per cent of their sales are exports.

What is their secret to success? Their success depends on every employee and every department serving Timberjack’s customers better than they are served by the competition. They have spent and will continue to spend heavily on research to make better products for their customers. Their employees all share in the financial results of the company through profit-sharing.

One last thing: When you look at the serial plate on the Timberjack skidder you will see something unusual: the names of the people who assembled it. That is pride, that is Timberjack and that is Oxford county.

TORONTO ISLANDS

Mr. Reville: This government continues to fail the Toronto Islanders. True, it was the previous government that brought in Bill 191, ostensibly to save the island homes. It is also true that over six years later, the island community continues to lack the rights of every other community in this province. The unworkability of Bill 191 means that islanders cannot get building permits to fix up their homes and cannot get insurance on their homes.

The Premier (Mr. Peterson) said he would rectify this ridiculous situation in 1985; nothing happened. He reiterated that commitment again last year; nothing happened.

Provincial legislation created this mess. Provincial legislation is required to sort it out. The houses are running down and the bills are running up. The island community needs the help of this government to survive. The government knows there is support on all sides of the House for the island community. At the very least, the government owes the community some answers. What does the government intend to do, and when does it intend to do it?

SPEAKING ENGAGEMENT

Mr. Sterling: In the absence of the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology (Mr. Kwinter), who is currently involved in trade missions overseas, I would like to inform his ministry that, unfortunately, I continue to be unavailable to do his speaking engagements.

For the benefit of those members who are unaware, I shall offer a bit of the background on this situation. Just prior to the departure of the minister on a trade junket -- sorry, mission -- I received a call from his office inquiring as to my availability to do a speaking engagement. The telephone scenario goes something like this:

“Mr. Sterling?” said the aide. “Yes,” I replied. “We are hoping you could do a speaking engagement in North Bay in a couple of days,” said the aide. “Is this to participate in a panel discussion?” I asked. “No, to speak on behalf of the minister.” I asked, “What is it all about?” “Oh, the normal stuff about the north.” “Can I make changes to the speech?” I asked. “Some,” replied the aide. “Well, I do not think the government has done anything for the north,” I replied.

Mr. Speaker: The member’s time has expired.

Mr. Sterling: “So let me get this straight. You want me to do a speech” --

lnterjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order. That completes the allotted time for members’ statements.

Mr. Sterling: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker: Order. I am listening very carefully to this point of order.

Mr. Sterling: Could I ask for unanimous consent just to finish this?

Mr. Speaker: The members have heard the request. Is it yes or is it no? No? I did not hear complete agreement.

Mr. Ruprecht: Mr. Speaker. I ask for consent to make some remarks on Lithuanian and Estonian independence days.

Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?

Agreed to.

LITHUANIAN AND ESTONIAN INDEPENDENCE DAYS

Mr. Ruprecht: February 16 and February 24 are important dates in the history of freedom-loving peoples everywhere, and they have special significance for citizens of Lithuanian and Estonian heritage, respectively.

On these dates, our friends commemorate the 70th anniversary of the 1918 proclamation of Lithuania and Estonia as sovereign democratic nations. We who live in a democratic society do not always appreciate our good fortune. We take for granted our freedom of speech, of press, of religion, of travel, and even the right to openly criticize our own government. The courageous determination of the Lithuanian and Estonian peoples to regain this kind of freedom is a source of inspiration to all of us.

Indeed, because these peoples have tasted freedom, neither the weapons of starvation nor prison walls could extinguish the torch of freedom and hope that has been resolutely expressed and passed on from one heroic generation to the next.

Those who came to Canada from Lithuania and Estonia have made important contributions to the development of our province and country and to the enrichment of our culture.

Today we have reason to admire the unbreakable spirit of optimism and hope of our friends that, in spite of past tragic events, they maintain their ideal of democracy and independence and their dream that Lithuania and Estonia will one day determine their own future and one day determine their own destiny.

It is with great pleasure that we extend our heartiest congratulations and best wishes to our friends as they commemorate Lithuanian and Estonian independence days. Thank you.

Miss Martel: As the opposition critic for the Ministry of Culture and Communications, I am pleased to add my party’s remarks on the anniversary of Lithuanian and Estonian independence. Throughout the next week, Ontarians of Lithuanian and Estonian origin are marking the 70th anniversary of the proclamations of independence of their respective homelands. This independence lasted a brief two decades, but the symbols of freedom and nationalism which they mark are being celebrated in festivities in Toronto, across Ontario and, indeed, around the world.

There are important cultural and spiritual celebrations for the Lithuanian- and Estonian-Canadian community. It is to the benefit of all Ontarians that the distinct culture and tradition of our citizens of Lithuania and Estonia have remained so strong and so rich. Lithuania and Estonia are rich in history and resources, and their people are to be admired for their strength of will and nationalistic spirit. Even after 70 years, the quest for national freedom and independence remains a goal in the life of Lithuanians at home and abroad.

We hope that the 70th anniversary celebrations of Lithuanian and Estonian independence will be allowed to take place peacefully in the homelands and will not be marred by attempts by authorities to stop them. We join in commemorating the historic occasion here in Ontario.

Mr. Sterling: On behalf of my party, I would like to express our remembrance of this very, very important day. Estonians and Lithuanians are very passionate and determined people. They suffered much in this century in their homeland and many found their way to our country and to a new way of life. Unfortunately, that homeland no longer exists, and, for those who remain behind, theirs is a life of strife and conflict which is a result of Soviet occupation some 48 years ago.

We in Canada have difficulty imagining a life without freedom of expression, religion or assembly. Canadians speak out against their judiciary, their political system and any aspect of their lives in which they feel they have been infringed upon. They do so free from the threat of persecution. Such actions in Estonia or Lithuania are met with violence and arrest. Dissidents are imprisoned for their political beliefs or for any fight for human rights. Demonstrations, particularly those in recognition of their independence days, will be greeted by the militia in Estonia and, perhaps, imposition of martial law in Lithuania.

Perhaps glasnost, the openness of the Soviet government, has not yet reached the southeast coast of the Baltic Sea, but for those who remain, both in their native countries and here in Canada, the traditions of their heritage continue. Their fight for independence continues and is as indomitable as their spirit.

This is the 70th anniversary of Independence Day and for 10,000 members of the Lithuanian community in Toronto, this upcoming weekend will serve as a reminder of their heritage for the rest of us. There will be celebrations and demonstrations as well as a flag-raising at Mississauga city hall on February 14 to commemorate this event.

The Estonian community, 12,000 strong, will also be celebrating the following weekend with the Estonian flag to be raised at city hall on February 24. The Estonian and Lithuanian communities have contributed greatly to this city’s growth and development and have maintained a strong sense of their former identity. I know that all members of this House wish for an end to the oppression of these peoples in their homeland and extend our hope that they may one day enjoy the freedoms which we take for granted.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

1996 OLYMPIC SUMMER GAMES

Hon. Mr. O’Neil: Before I begin my statement, like the member for Simcoe East (Mr. McLean), I would like to extend the best wishes of this government and the province of Ontario to all those athletes who are competing in the 1988 Olympics in Calgary. We hope they are successful and bring back many medals to the province.

I would like to make a statement concerning the 1996 Olympic Summer Games. When Ben Johnson carried the Olympic torch into Nathan Phillips Square on his way to Calgary, many of us in Ontario shared the same thought. We were thinking that the Olympic flame will return to this province because Toronto will win the bid to host the 1996 Olympic Summer Games.

Mr. Speaker, let me bring you and the honourable members up to date about what has happened here in Ontario. Last February, cabinet approved in principle the city of Toronto’s proposal. Since then, an interministerial committee led by my ministry has been formed to co-ordinate this government’s initiatives and support to the Toronto Ontario Olympic Council, better known as TOOC.

The committee has already met with representatives of TOOC, the federal government and the representatives of the city of Toronto and Metropolitan Toronto to establish the responsibility for the many aspects of the bid preparation and the actual hosting of the games. The committee will continue to ensure that the best possible bid will be put forward for the consideration of the International Olympic Committee in 1990.

The Premier (Mr. Peterson) helped enhance the committee’s international profile when he led a provincial delegation in Switzerland last fall to meet with the International Olympic Committee. His presence within Olympic diplomatic circles was most effective and his message was clear. Toronto is a city of international stature and it is more than capable of hosting the games.

Today I am pleased to announce that my ministry will provide $3.1 million over four years to the Toronto Ontario Olympic Council to support bringing the 1996 Summer Games to Ontario. These funds will go towards the technical aspects of the bid. Additional services will also be provided where feasible.

The funds we are announcing today are an investment. Already the city and the province are receiving international exposure through this bid.

Further, the legacy of hosting the games is long-lasting and far-reaching. A Toronto-centred games could inject up to $1 billion directly into the Ontario economy and create more than 30,000 person-years of employment.

New and improved facilities would benefit amateur athletes and the general public for years to come.

Many other southern Ontario municipalities would share in the long-term economic benefits of the games.

Visitors from Canada, the United States and beyond would stretch the region’s hospitality and retail services to capacity. Clearly, the economic impact province-wide would be substantial.

There is much more than a dollar value to hosting the games. I am speaking of the pride and enjoyment the games would bring to all Ontarians.

The games can also generate a tourism impact like no other event, putting Ontario in the spotlight of world attention, where we belong.

Hosting the games can bring great social and economic benefits to our province. Quite simply, there is no better place than Ontario for the 1996 Olympic Games.

I would like to acknowledge the presence today in the members’ gallery of the man who is the driving force behind the Toronto bid to host the games, TOOC chairman Paul Henderson.

EDUCATION FUNDING

Hon. Mr. Ward: Members will know that the expenditures of school boards are currently financed by a grant contribution from the province coupled with a local contribution or apportionment from the municipality or municipalities supporting the board.

When more than one municipality must contribute a share of education taxes requisitioned by a school board, the amount paid for education purposes can differ considerably from municipality to municipality. The Ministry of Education therefore requires that a formula be used to make apportionment between municipalities more equitable.

The equalization factors used by the Ministry of Education to calculate apportionment and provincial grants do not reflect fairly the economic change that has occurred since 1970.

This situation has been borne out in recent appeals by the city of Nepean and the township of Goulbourn to the Ontario Municipal Board of the Carleton Board of Education’s apportionment for the years 1984 to 1987. The Ontario Municipal Board has indicated its reluctance to hear these appeals.

I am pleased to announce today that a negotiated settlement has been reached with the municipalities involved. It will provide a total of $4.575 million, which will be divided among the Carleton Board of Education, the city of Nepean and the townships of Goulbourn and Cumberland.

I am also pleased to announce that the 1988 grant regulations will include the updating of the equalization factors for the calculation of both a municipality’s share of the school board’s requisition and provincial grants.

These changes will be phased in and details will be provided with the publication of the general legislative grant regulations. This will resolve the issue of unequal distribution of the school board requirement and place municipalities throughout this province on an equal basis at the end of the phase-in period.

Later today I will also be introducing legislation that will modify the appeal process available to municipalities. Appeals will be directed to arbitration by municipal treasurers only on questions of error or omission in the assessment data or in its calculation, and where the provisions of the regulation under the Education Act have not been applied. These changes will be effective for the 1988 tax year.

COMMISSIONER THOMAS B. O’GRADY

Hon. Mrs. Smith: I wish to inform the House of a very significant appointment for Ontario’s law enforcement community, and I would like all members to join me in congratulating Thomas B. O’Grady, the new commissioner of the Ontario Provincial Police.

Commissioner O’Grady has been with the force for 26 years. I am convinced he will provide the force with the type of leadership that has earned the OPP a reputation for excellent law enforcement and superior public service. In fact, it is probably fair to say Commissioner O’Grady is one of the officers who have helped to build that OPP tradition.

During his years with the force, he has held managerial responsibility for a wide variety of policing tasks and the force has been the better for his efforts. In 1986 and 1987, he headed the force’s investigation support division; from 1984 to 1986, he was director of the criminal investigation branch; and from 1979 to 1984, he served as detective inspector in that same area. Prior to that, he served as a noncommissioned officer at various OPP locations around the province. During those years, he has demonstrated the ability to develop new ideas and motivate others to help carry them out.

I believe this combination of experience and innovation will allow Commissioner O’Grady to provide the progressive leadership the OPP needs in today’s changing Ontario. Both the Premier and I feel Tom O’Grady will be an able successor to Archie Ferguson, a man who made a superb contribution to public safety in Ontario. His appointment will take effect Monday morning. I wish Tom, his wife and family every success.

PUBLIC SECTOR PENSION PLANS

Hon. R. F. Nixon: Today, I have tabled reports on public sector pension issues: the report of the Rowan Task Force on the Investment of Public Sector Pension Funds and the Coward report on the Financing of Benefits under the Superannuation Adjustment Benefits Act.

Members will recall that in September 1986, Malcolm Rowan was asked to head a task force that would review investment practices relating to Ontario’s public sector pension funds. That same year, I also asked Laurence Coward to report on financing issues regarding indexed pension benefits for Ontario’s public servants and teachers. Both reports address the detailed aspects of investing and financing both pension and pension indexation funds.

I would also like to point out at this time that the Rowan report deals with a number of public sector pension policy issues other than those related to the financing and investment policies of the pension plans for teachers and public servants.

Rowan makes detailed recommendations on issues relating to the Ontario municipal employees retirement system, the Ontario Hydro pension plan, the hospitals of Ontario pension plan and the Workers’ Compensation Board pension plan.

My colleague the Chairman of Management Board (Mr. Elston) has asked the Public Sector Pensions Advisory Board to consider these issues. As well, the board will review Rowan’s general recommendations on the role of plan members in administration and investment policy and the use of pension funds to enhance economic development in Ontario.

In reviewing the financial status of the superannuation adjustment funds for teachers and public servants, Rowan and Coward were dealing with a serious financing deficiency which has existed for some time. In fact, when the funds were first established in 1975, a regular review of the funding arrangements was to have been undertaken.

The deficiencies in financing we are facing today are the result of two key decisions made more than a decade ago. First, it was decided to fund indexation payments on a pay-as-you-go basis. Put simply, this means that contribution rates are set at a level sufficient to pay for the pension benefits of plan members as they retire.

Problems arise when the number of retirees increases relative to the number of current contributors, a situation in which we find ourselves today.

The second decision was to extend indexation retroactively without any corresponding funding to those who had been contributing to the plans prior to 1976, as well as those who had retired previous to that date.

The Rowan and Coward reports conclude that the cost of financing indexed pensions for teachers and public servants is being passed on unfairly to future generations of taxpayers and plan members.

In response to the current status of the plans, both reports recommend that the basic pension and indexation funds be merged and funding arrangements changed. Both reports also recommend that the basic pension and indexation funds be transferred gradually into market investments.

To make the best possible decision on the financial, investment and policy issues these reports raise, we will seek the response and input of all affected and interested parties: teachers, public servants, the pension community, academics and the general public.

To allow for this input, I have asked Dr. David Slater, a former chairman of the Economic Council of Canada, to invite written submissions and meet, as necessary, with interested groups. Dr. Slater will synthesize the findings and recommendations of both the Rowan and Coward reports, as well as the opinions he receives from the involved and interested parties.

I have asked Dr. Slater to report his findings to the Chairman of the Management Board of Cabinet, the Minister of Education (Mr. Ward) and myself by July 31 of this year. These findings will be discussed with the directly affected parties and their responses will be requested prior to any announcement of the government’s policy and the introduction of appropriate legislation.

There can be no doubt that the financial problems of the adjustment