LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL V OF MANITOBA Monday, 16 March, 1981 Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPL V SUPPL V - HEALTH MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Vir den): Item 4, page 76, I believe the Member for Fort Rouge was still questioning as commit tee rose. The Member for Fort Rouge. MS. WESTBURV: Thank you, I had finished asking a question. I wonder if the Minister would like me to ask it again. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. SHERMAN: If the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge wants to get on the record agai n, Mr.

Chairman, she can certainly ask it again, but I think I have the answer for the honourable member. She was inquiring about an apparent discrepancy in the number of clients served and serviced by the AFM as between the years 19 75-76 and 19 79-80 based on budget and complement, establishment of staff man years, and I think her question was why were there 6,000 clients in 1975-76 with a staff complement of 91 persons,

whereas there were only 4,000 in 1979- 80 with a 15 0 staff man years attributed to the AFM and its external agencies . . . MS. WESTBURV: ... And more money. MR. SHERMAN: . . . And more money; $3 million in 1975-76; $4.5 million in 1979-80. The answer, Mr. Chairman, is that the figure for 19 79-80 was not 4,000 clients, it was 9,641 and those were treatment cases, those were clients who received treatment and did not include a substantial of others served by the AFM in training and counsel ling and instructional programs.

That number included 11 8 teachers, 1, 15 9 empl oyees, 1, 000 professionals, and 1, 000 citizens participating in information sessions. So the total number for 197 9-80 was substantially more than the 9,641 I'm quoting, but that was the number who received treatement. The 19 75-76 figure, we're not able to verify, and I'm advised by the AFM officials that at that time requests for information and assessments of clients were counted as services and there were sometimes inaccu rate statistics kept in this respect.

There was considerable dupli cation and as a consequence there was a comput erized sys tem, a record keeping introduced a few years ago known as the Uniform Data System, the UDS, and that has enabled us to keep a firm and categorical fix on the number of clients treated,

whereas that was not the case five and six years ago. So the 6,000 figure for 19 75-76 is probably high in terms of actual clinical service, and the figure that the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge had for 19 79-80 is very low. lt does not compare by any means with the actual figure. MS. WESTBURV: Last April the Minister gave an ind ication that the program , Building the Pieces Together, was being reviewed by an Educational 1733 Advisory Committee with a view to integrating the best of it into an educational program in the high schools.

Could the Minister now tell us if this review has been com pleted and if so, what conclusions have been reached rega rding Building The Pieces Together and whether it will be reintroduced in Manitoba schools? MR. SHERMAN: The review has been completed, Mr. Chai rman . I wonder if I could have the indul gence of the commit tee to make a statement with respect to what we are doing at the AFM and through the AFM of at least a few brief minutes dur ation, because I think it's very important.

I am proud of and gratified by the things that are being done and the miles that have been covered by the AFM in the last three years, and I would like to pla ce just a general overview on the record. I expect there may well be points of challenge and points of debate raised in particular by my friend the Honourable Member for Winnip eg Centre, but nonetheless I know he has a keen interest in what the AFM is doing, and I would like, for the record, to outline a little bit of what they are doing, because under the leadership of the Chairman of the Board, Mr.

Ga ry Mi les and the board members, the Executive Dir ector of the Foundation, Mr. Dave Cruickshank, and the Assistant Executive Director, Ross Ramsey, I think we've made considerable strides. We recognize that there are great challe nges out there in this field and there's much to be done, but I think we've come some distance. The past two years in particular, the Foundation has been going through a major reorganization and it's com pleted to the point where we're in a position throught the AFM to embark this year into a number of new program areas and a num ber of new geographic areas.

The requested appropriation of $6, 1 28,4 00 in front of the commit tee, Mr. Chairman, contains funds to initiate a treatment program for youth which will combine individual counselling and group counselling with involvement from parents, schools, and community based self-help programs. We have added alcohol treatment workers and basic treatment services and will be extending them into new communities - new in the sense that they haven't been served in this capacity before - such as Portage la Prairie and Swan River.

The Foundation has developed an initiative in the area of motor vehicle alcohol and drug programs and alcohol and drug abuse in thr ee phases; new lic encees, first impair ed offences, and sec ond impaired offences. As I poi nted out earlier this afternoo n, Mr. Chairman, in 1981- 82 the AFM assu mes an operational direction of the former Alcare Resort Centre in Ste. Rose du Lac.

The Foundation has acquired the William Potoroka Memorial Libr ary in its resources department, and the di fferences and the di fficulties that existed between the Alcohol and Drug Education Service and the Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba have been success fully resolved with a melding of those two important agencies. The annual report, which was tabled in the House the other day, contains a good overview, I think, and

Monday, 16 March, 1981 explanation of some of the things that have been identified and have been developed into program thrusts and initiativ es by the Foundation for the coming year and for future years. I would just refer members of the committee to one or two references in that report. As the report points out, the Foundation treatment programs have been refined to meet client needs and the increased demand for service, and that has included the addition of new non-resident programs in Winn ipeg, Dauphin and Thompson. The overall effect of that has been a considerable increase in our treatment capacity.

The creation of the position known as the Alcohol Treatment Worker is an important development. This offi cial assists communitie s and clients in the intervention of alcoholism and provides long-term afterca re following tr eatment. Po sitions were established in Dauphin, Rossburn, Flin Flon and Gill am. We also have a regular weekly service by travel ling Alcohol Treatment Workers, who offer extended service to a number of points in the north, including Nelson Ho use, Wa bowd en, IIford and Pikwitonei. An important initiative is the Emp loyee Assistance Program.

That service has been expanded into the north with a position in Thom pson working with mining companies in several locations, and a new position has been created in Win nipeg to offer increased program development services to ind ustry in the south. I have referred to the significant Driver's Program, which has been developed in the Winnipeg region. That is soon going to be expanded into other regions.

We have a special program at the Heading ley Correctional Institute which was put in place late in 19 79, and it c·ontinued through 19 80 to provide very good results in terms of referrals to long-term rehabilitation on discharge. The four AFM treatment centres are encouraging the development of alumni groups which serve to support new clients in treatment, as well as offering link-up and liaison with existing community resources in the search for long-term success and triumph over the illness. 19 80 has been a year of extensive planning.

Two committees have been formed, the Education Review Committee, and this is the one which has dealt with the subject raised by the Honour able Member for Fort Rouge, Buildin g the Pieces Together, and the overa ll educ ational approa ch, and the secon d committee, the Medical Advisory Committee. Each has contrib uted substantially in planning and participation in the accomplishment of extending the awareness in the community of alcohol and drug abuse. Plans and studies have been initiated into the area of treatment programs for youth and these are to be developed and put in place in 19 81. Mr.

Chairman, the AFM Youth Program is based on the principles of community mobilization. It calls for the provision of numerous treatment and prevention programs, each designed to assist professionals and lay people in treatment of chemically-dependent youth and provide citizens, at the same time, with the tools necessary to help work agains t chemical abus e and irresponsible use. The AFM is prepa red to provide the dire ction, education and the trai ning, but the 1734 programs have to be part of the day-to-day life of the community.

We intend to begin in the following places simultaneously: In the schools, with teachers, parents and youths working together; in the homes, with parenting skills programs; in the health and social assistance fields with nurses, policemen, social workers, probation officers, and the like, with special training for interve ntion and tr eatment supp ort methods; in the judi ciary, the lawyers and court officials, respecting intervention and referrals; in the church, with clergymen and youth leaders, again respecting interve ntion, referrals and support; and in the workplace, with management, with personnel officers and with union leaders.

The specific education program in the schools, which was formerly known as Building the Pieces Together has been under review, as the Member for For t Rouge sugg ested a moment ago, by the Educ ation Revie w Comm ittee, and the rec ommenda tions have come forward that it be revised, and that revision is currently under way. In the 19 81- 82 fiscal year, we believe we will have a strong educational program in place for use in the schools. It will be endo rsed by the Educa tiona l Commi ttee.

That com mittee is dr awn of lay and professional people from a cr oss-s ection of Manitoba, as well as by the staff of the AFM and the Board of Governors of the AFM. The Alcohol and Drug Education Service Board has closed its doors and has amalgamated with the AFM and in concert with that the William Potoroka Library has become part of the AFM's resources. Three of the ADES Board members are sitting on the AFM Educational Advisory Commi ttee. The ADES In­ School Program is continuing and we'll be looking towards our Educationa l Advisory Commi ttee for evaluations following a one-year trial.

I can't say too much about the Empl oyee Assistance Program. That is one of the major thrusts of the AFM. We have worked particularly hard in the north to put this in place, initiating an Emp loyee Assistance Program with the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company, and having proceeded thus far to very productive meetings with both lnco and with Sherritt-Gordon Mines, out of which have come EAP, Emplo yee Assistance Program committees, who are working on de velopment of their respect iv e programs. An EAP Program at Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting in Flin Flon got under way late in the fall.

We have been handling approximately 20 to 25 persons in that program. Thompson Ho spital is working on such a policy and program, with training workshops to follow. Lynn Lake Hospital has developed a program which has been approved by the AFM Board, with workshops under way as of last month. The AFM has work ed with the New Ca reers Program of the Provincial Department of Labor and Manpower, to formulate a two-year Career Training Program for new alcohol and drug staff to work in the field of alcoholism and to provide work and development for seven persons.

These are some of the forward thrusts that have been taken and that will be in high gear, if I may use that term, in the coming year, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the committee's ind ulgence in permitting me to make some of those points for the record. I think it is important, because the people of Manitoba

Monday, 16 March, 1981 and the Go ver nment of Manito ba, bot h the Government and the Opposition of Manit oba, are well- served by the Board, the admin istration and the staff of the Alcoholism Foundation, who are hard at work and creatively at work in an extremely challenging health field. There is no question that alcohol and drug abuse constitute, at least in relative terms. an epidemic in North American society.

I want to take this opportunity to acknowledge what the new administration and the new Board at the AFM have produced for Manitobans in the last two years in the way of new ide as and new approaches that a�e proven and that will deliver the results we need and that have been refined to the point wher e now they are in place and should produce measurable results for us in the immediate future. In fact, some measurable results are already evident, as I have ind icated in some of my remarks. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Rouge. MS. WESTBURY: I think that was very intersting, Mr.

Chairman, and will be looking forward to some of the results coming forward to us by the next Session, or before, if possible. I do have another couple of questions on AFM and I would just like to proceed. I understand that AFM operates at least one program in conjunction with the Motor Vehicle Branch. Is that rig ht? MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr . Chairman, that's the Second Offender's Program. MS. WESTBURY: I wonder if he could advise me whether they have joint use of information in the Uniform Data System.

Concern has been expressed to me as to whether AFM clients give consent before data concerning them is provided to the Motor Vehicle Branch, whether in fact there is any breach of confident iality here in the pr esentation of information to the Motor Vehicle Branch. MR. SHERMAN: I would have to check with the AFM and with my officials on that question. I don't have the answer to that, Mr. Chairman, but I will obtain it for the honourable member. MS. WESTBURY: Thank you. The last question has to do with the allocation of funds to other agencies, which I understand is now done through AFM.

Since AFM is a treatment agency as well, I have been asked whether AFM then doesn't have a vested interest in maximizing its share of the funding, as opposed to funding external agencies. Do they have all of the control over where the funding goes for external agencies, is the first question? MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the AFM rec ommends to the Mini ster of Health the di stribution, br eakdown and dis semination of external agency funding.

It is done in consultation, but certainly the opinion, perspective and viewpoint of the AFM weighs very heavily in terms of the element of mini sterial or governmental decision on the amounts and the distribution of those amounts. MS. WESTBURY: I'm just going to leave it at that, Mr. Chairman. 1735 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Winnipeg Centre. MR. BOYCE: Earlier this afternoon, to the Minister through you, Mr.

Chairman, in response to the Member for Fort Rouge you used the expression "social categories", in responding to the question about whether people had to say that they were alcoholics before they were eligible for admission, and you said that they weren't, which I understand is the case also,. but in your answer you used the words "social categories". Could you expand on that just a little for me, what is a social category? MR. SHERMAN: I think, as I recall, I'll have to check the record, Mr.

Chairman, but if I used that term it was reference to the question from the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge about the dif ferences in numbers of women who were on the clientele list of the AFM and its agencies and the numb ers of men. I may have used it in that reference and if I did, what I meant by that is that, as I said at the time that I think traditional stereotypes and lif estyle patterns have tended to disguise and obscure the problem of alcoholism in the female population to a much greater extent than in the male popula tion.

That certainly is changing and is going to change more as more and more women enter the workforce, but traditionally we have looked, for example, at a situation where a male suffering from the disease is in the wor kforce and ther efo re his problem is obvious to a great many people every day. Many females have been in the home and not in the workforce and their problem has not been obvious, and as a consequence, it's either gone unrecognized or unadmitted and certain unattended to. I would say that if I used the social category in that context it's because I am thin king in terms of persons in

part icular inc ome gr oups, particular socioeconomic groups who don't work or who come from a generation in which women did not generally work as against those from other socioeconomic backgrounds and from today's generation, who do participate in the workforce very competitively. Some of tho se women who have more or less been preoccupied with life in the home have had drinking problems that have not surfaced as readily as is the case with the others and I think that explains part of the discrepancy in the figu res, but it's no doubt going to change with new work patterns and new lifestyles. MR.

BOYCE: It was in a different context, as I recall it. Hansard will - perhaps we can discuss this some other time. When I get a Hansard I can show you. Where you used the phrase is why I've raised the question. Mr. Chairman, I too would like to commend the Alcholism Foundation of Manitoba and I'd like to go back to 19 56, I wouldn't stop at 19 77. I'd go back to 19 56 when their budget was $ 50,000.00. I'd like to commend all the people who have been associated with the Alcoholism Foundation for the 25 years that it has been in existance.

I was glad to see that some of the difficulties have been resolve d and I'm glad to see that Bill Potoroka's name in this field has been put down in perpetuity in that sense that his libr ary is now part of the Foundation, because he was of the ones of the people who was crying in wilderne ss with AI Christie

Monday, 16 March, 19 81 and a · few other people way back when. But the problems which accrued from 19 69 to 19 77 perhaps are di fferent than the problems that accm3d from 19 77 to 19 81, and while there may be some political advantage in enunciating some of these dif ferences and the problems which come to my a':te ntion, becaus e there's probably no other ·'ield in go vernment that I get mor e phone (:ails or correspondence than in this particular field, but the Minister is a politician, I am but a man of th•3 people so I won't speak political. I'm glad also to see that Alcare has been resolved.

The only thing I would like the Minister, perhaps he could get it from staff and give it to me l3 ter, the figur e on it, I'm not even going to question, because that was a difficult situation. If we had our druthers, I think anyone would rather the place wa s buil t somewhere else, but nevertheless there wE 're other things that had to be taken into considera tion.

As far as the question raised relative to the Annual Report and the di fference between the fi ;cal and calendar year, I would suggest to the go"ernment that they maintain that particular position, because the only advantage it may have is to some of the private agencies and I see that there may be an advantage to them. But as alluded to by the question from the Mem ber for For t Rouge, w1 en she questions the amount of money that is being spent dir ectly by the Foundation vis-a-vis that which is spent by non-go vernment agencies, is always a problem.

Now you'll get people that think because they make a request for funds that that is the amount that is fort hco ming, and former admin istrations back to 19 56 have held by .md large that the moneys allocated in this field is under the aegis of the Board of Governors of the Foundations, albeit that it is in consultation with the Ministers and there may be priorities that have to be addr•3ssed.

My problem is not with the Alcoholism Foundation, it's with the government and in looking at tile Annual Report for 19 80 and the people who corr prise the Board of Governors of the Alcoholism Foundation, it reflects in my view a cross-section of very capable, competent and interested people in the field. So I'm not going to sit and second guess what thny need. I was involved with the Alcoholism Foundation, had I still been there, I may have done things di1f erently.

I may have painted the Board Room blue Jr maybe something of more significance, but neverth less I don't think it is the position of the Opposition to harangue over some things which may bn just the dif ference in ad ministrative policy. Nevertheless, I do take exception with the gov ernment 's position vis-a-vis the FotJn dation, because on paper it looks like you're going from $4.9 mi llion roughly to $6. 1 million, but the over all philosophy of the government is being re flected by the Board in that here you're adding an additional service and moving on in a costly direction in my opinion.

Because the overall thrust of the Jllcoholism Foundation, in many peoples' opinion, i� that the only way that it can make a significant social impact is if it starts pulling people out of other treatment modalities. Now I know tha t you 'll get argumen Is on the efficacy of this model or that model, tre atment, pattern, system. programs, procedures and all the rest of it.

Nevertheless, if we go back t•riefly, Mr. 1736 Chairman, prior to LeDain's interest in alcohol and drug abuse, there was precious little interest in the field of alcoholism by some of the more traditional professions, but atter it became evident that there was going to be public mone ys put into this particular field, the interests which was brought to bear and everybody wanting their slices of the pie professionally, has caused a problem and this is another manifestation of the government's inability to make decisions when it puts them in conflict with powerful groups within our society.

This is the thir d manif estation of such unwillingness to come to grips with the problem. We had it in psychiatric care for children; we had it in Dentacare and here is another field. Now the Annual Report is presented in a form which is hard for anyone to really read it meaningfully. If you look on page 7, The Ann ual Report of the Alcoholism Foundation for 19 80, you will see Item No. 2, Hospitals and Physicians, Indiv iduals admitted to hospitals for alcohol and drug programs 1, 55 1; Individuals seen by physicians for alcohol and drug programs 5, 211.

If you look back at No. 1, you will see Total Admissions to Detox Facilities 4,288; Total Caseloads of Residents and Non- Resident Treatment Programs 5,000. So you have roughly 9,000, well roughly 10,000, 9,700, to 6.7 thousand people. I will hazard a guess at this point in the game that this will shit! even more, because as the moneys are made avai lable, those people who have sophisti cated outreach programs, outreach programs in the sense that they go after funding for their particular approach to any problem are usually more successful than those people that aren't that sophisticated.

In my view, the unw illingness of the government to develop a pull, a pressure on that system, so people are diverted out of it, out of the medical model, and, Mr. Chairman, I am the first to confess that you need all of them; you need the psychiatrist; you need a psychologist; you need do ctors and you need everyt hing else. You need as many modalities as we can possibly afford, because there is some truth in the addage of dif ferent folks, different strokes. But nevertheless this report reflects a skewing of the funds made available to one particular model. It, I repeat, reflects an attitude of the govern ment.

I don't fault the Board of Governors because they have to make decisions as agencies of the Crown and they reflect the policy of governments. Albeit some people hold different views, nevertheless that is the fact of the matter. So I would encourage the Minister in consultation with the Board to enco ur age them to develop programs which will put pressure on the traditional systems, where we have indi viduals adm itted to hospitals for alcohol and drug programs, that the Chemical Withdr awal Unit and the Alcohol Treatment Unit, these modalities we dou btless have to have. So, Mr .

Cha irman, without going thr ough the question of whether X dollars go here or X dollars go there, I'm just giving the Minister the benefit of my think ing on this, and he may di sagree with me entirely, but I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that since this is, as I recall, the first Act was passed in 19 56 - perhaps Dr. Johns on could refresh my memory - I think it was 1956 that The Alcoholism Foundation Act was first passed and if such be the case, perhaps this is the year that there should be a

Monday, 16 March, 1981 gathering of the clan, if you will, of all the people who are still around in the province, and there's a goodly number of them who are still around. There are not too many of the original Board of Directors who are with us. In fact, I don't know if there are or not, but nevertheless, it would perhaps be a good year to do an assessment of where we have gone.

To sum up my ramblings - I'll admit that this is just an overview of it because I don't think it does anybody any good for me to reflect some of the phone calls or letters I get to the specifics, because regardless of who sits in that chair, you are going to have to same kind of criticisms; it's too much of this modality, not enough of that modality, you give me the money and I'll do a better job than those other people that you re giving the money to. You are always going to get those kinds of arguments. The administration of it, I think, and I'm glad to see most of the senior staff are still there.

I still owe, and I'll put it on the record , to go from a few hundred thousand dollars to over a million dollars, I think the province owes a debt of gratitude to the people who did that, Brigadier-G eneral Graham and Mr. Puc hlik. I was glad to see him go from Finance to take charge of the till, because it was a big task and I think errors were made. I will be the first one to admit that, but nevertheless, in the public interest, Mr.

Chairman, I think the Minister has to accept the responsibility, if what I bel ieve is happening does occur, that it is going off in a direction which will put more emphasis on one modality than they should on several smaller modalities. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, He nry J. Einarson: Resolution 4. pass - the Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: I see that one of the thrusts of the Foundation will be youths, and the Minister indicated that and it stated that in the report. 1t says on Page 4 that youth will be a major demographic thrust.

I looked through the report and I tried to recall what the Minister said and I don't think he spent much time, if any time - I cou ldn't recall any anyway - talking about the problems that retired people run into with respect to alcoholism or a growing dependence on alcohol. These are people who are busy; they are working; their day is, in a sense, taken up with activity; they retire and they have a lot of free time on their hands. They don't really know how to fill it all and one easy way of doing so is to start off by getting slightly inebr iated and then they progress from there.

I am wondering whether in fact the Min ister is taking this into accou nt, because when one talks about demographic thrusts, surely that is one that is upon us. We have more people living longer; there are an incr easing number of people over 65, in possibly better health at 65 than they were a few years ago, on average, possibly with a lot of energy and not enough to take up their time and it's a matter of working with older people and getting them to pursue alternative ways of taking up their time and finding some utility from their life at that age, rather than resorting to the bottle.

I am wondering if there are any statistics kept on the growing incidence of alcoholism amongst people over 65. The Minister says that this is an epidemic and I agree. I know that we have particular problems amongst youth, but at the same time, I think we are overlooking the problems that older people have. - - 1737 MR. SHERMAN: I would agree with the Honourable Member for Transcona, Mr.

Chairman, that certai nly that is a category, an age group or social category that certainly is deserving of equal attention and the AFM has turned to that area to try to evaluate the extent of the problem, if there is a problem. lt is also a subject that we'll be asking the Council on Aging to look at.

Up to this point in time, through the Community Mobil ization Program of the AFM, a vast num ber of semin ars, workshops, instructiona l sessions and in-service training sessions have been held with teachers, counsellors, community workers and agency personnel, many of whom are involved in activities having to do with the elderly population and senior citizens.

So the message in terms of addressing the "problem" if, as, and to what extent it exists in the elderly population, is certainly being delivered through the Community Mobi li zation Program and has been carried to persons who interface with that elderly population. In addition to that, the Foundation is working directly with the Age and Opportunity Centre on the basis of a $20,000 Federal grant to develop a program that will train counsellors and alcohol treatment workers for work in the senior community.

So the problem is being addr essed, but certai nly there has been more focus, at least in terms of publi city and attention and contr oversy, on the problem among the younger population because of the ackno wledged magnitude of the problem in schools and particularly in junior high schools. MR. PARASIUK: I don' t want the Mi nister to misinterpret me; I am not criticizing the focus on youth. I think that at the same time, there should be more substantive attention given to problems that elderly people might have.

I do so by saying that I think that we don't have any statistics on this indicating whether in fact alcoholism is increasing amongst elderly people, and I would think that those are the type of statistics that if we have all these facilities for treating alcoholism, that we in fact should be keeping that type of statistic to see whether in fact the problem is changing.

I do so noting that on page 12, and I don't know what this relates to, but on page 12 of the AFM's Annual Report it says that, "Bu dget restraints curtailed the breadth of former evaluation and research activities in 1980." I don't know whether that relates to any thing in particular or relates to the general activites of the Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba, because if that's the case, then again that type of restraint, I think, was shortsighted and we pay the consequenc es now. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 4. Member for Winnipeg Centre. pass - The MR.

BOYCE: The Member for Transcona points out a rela tionship, and when I said earlier I didn't want criticize the Board or the Foundation, I forgot to make the point that with the economic conditions as they are, all negative social indices increase as a di rect result. That's almost fact. it's more in the realm of fact than Dar win's theory; that as unempl oyment goes up, suicides go up and crime goes up and divorce goes up and alcoholism goes up. When people have nothing to do, the first thing that they do is start anesthetizing themselves, it's a

Monday, 16 March, 1981 well known fact. So it was in that context that I fault the gover nment, not the Alcoholism Foundation, because it's a di rect result of government policy in the economic field. They are creating these problems which he says are epidemic. If it's going to increase at this rate, then I don't know where the end of it is going to be, and it's funny, it's passing strange, Mr. Chairman, that the government has always adopted the pol icy tha t you co uldn't solve problems by throwing dollars at them, but I have yet to hear of the netting out any social cost.

Earlier today we were talking about unemployment in the north; better to have welfare than make employment programs, or put employment programs into place, and the final line social cost of economic policies, the tools haven't been devised, I will ad mit, but they're not even making an attempt to see what the final social cost is of some of these problems. I think it comes to mind of the community in the north which has been in the news lately because of vandalism and everyt hing else, and that's just one particular community.

It's almost endemic to society as a whole as a result of the whole economic thrust of the government, and it is because of that I fault the government and not the Alcoholism Foundation. MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris Mc:Gregor: 4. pass - the Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: Could we get a report on the problem that existed last year and the year before and presumably still exists in Winnipeg with respect to glue sniffing and the sniffing of solvents? Is the Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba looking into this matter?

I know it required some work on the part of parents involved with students in the center of the city in terms of trying to get the city to enforce a by­ law against the easy sale of glue and solvents that were in fact being sniffed by young children. Can we get a report on this particular problem? MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that the three Prairie Provinces, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Al berta are working together through a joint committ ee to try to evaluate the extent of the problem and methods for getting at it.

One of the sort of elusive facts in the mix is the permanence of the glue sniffing addiction. Apparently research has ind icated that it will flare up in certain localities or certain neighbourhoods or certain sites for a period of time, a matter of a few weeks, and then dissipate and di sappear, and then there may be an occurence of it in a different locality. The three provinces are working together to try to measure the extent of the problem and develop techniques for attacking it and getting it under control. Just while I have the floor, Mr.

Chairman, I would lik e to, if I co uld, for the information of the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, who had asked about female clientele, just to refer to the AFM facility on River Avenue, River House, which is now known as the Women's River Avenue Centre, and which is devoted exclusively to female residential and non-residential treatment programs.

The increase for women in terms of program adRlissions over the period October 19 79 to September 19 80, has been greater than that for men on the AFM rolls, and it's interesting to note that over that period of time, October 19 79 to September 19 80, there were 3,344 admissions to the Women's River Avenue Centre, which is the first re sidential ho use for women alc oholics in Canada, to our kn owledge.

The existence of a residential facility where women with the problem can go, and with some deg ree of com passion, unders ta ndin g and confidentiality receive tre atme nt, is uncovering that iceberg of which we have only seen the tip in previous years. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4. Transcona. pass - The Member for MR. PARASIUK: Yes, I was looking again at the Annual Report, Statement of Revenue of Expenditur e for the year ended Ma rch 31 st, 19 80. It says Revenue, Pr ovince of Mani toba gr ants, $4,603,000.00.

That doe sn't quite correspond to wha t's prin ted in the Estima te s book, and furthermore it says Other Revenue of $77,348.00. Can we get some explanation of that particular discrepancy and also some indication of where this other revenue comes from? MR. SHERMAN (F ort Garry): Mr. Chairman, the $77,000 of Other Revenue is made of various tax rebates and donations that are received by the AFM. The $4.6 million does not include the General Salary Increase and adjustments of that nature to the actual AFM 1980 appropriation; they're not included in that $4.6 million. MR.

PARASIUK: It's not included, I know but you see, the item that was in for 1980 was $4,536,000 which is a difference of about $65,000.00. Now if you added the salary increase then you would have some figure in the order of $4,800,000 possibly or maybe $4,900,000, and yet what's printed in the book is actually having been spent for that year, according to this Estimates book was $4,536,000, and, if there was any particular reason for that discrepancy, I ... MR. SHERMAN: The column in the Annual Report, Mr. Chairman, refers to fiscal year 1979-80.

The figure in the Estimates that the honourable member is looking at is fiscal year 1980-8 1. MR. PARASIUK: The figure I was taking was from the gr een book, Est ima tes of Expenditur e and Revenue for 1980-8 1 and this shows final figures and it's for the year ending March 31st, 1980 and the figur e I'v e got in here in the gr een book was $4,536,000 and . MR. SHERMAN: For 79-80? MR. PARASIUK: Yes, the year ending March 31st, 1980 and if you look at the Annual Report it says the year ended March 31 st, 1980, both being the same, a difference of about $150,000.00. MR. SHERMAN: Well, Mr.

Chairman, then I think we have to go back to point number one, because the figure that's printed in the Annual Report here for Fiscal 79-80 of $4,680,448 would include the vote that the honoura ble member is looking at plus the balanc e of the GSI for that year, plus any supple menta ry spending, any supplemen ta ry Estimates. So that in the final reckoning on the financial statements of the Foundation it no w 1738

Monday, 16 March, 1981 appears as $4, 680,448 for that year. Does that explain it? MR. PARASIUK: Probably, I just thought that, this is probably the first time in the last week that I've been picky. I thought that one picky point deserves to be raised in the Estima tes process. I'll let it pass. That's sufficient . . . MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I'd find it a lot easier to de bate the honourable member's philo sophical points than his picky points. MR. DEPUTY (Rhineland): 4. CHAIRMAN, Arnold Brown the Member for Fort Rouge. MS. WESTBURY: The Minister just answered one of my previous questions, Mr. Chairperson.

I bel ieve he said caseload of 3,000 and something women were accepted at River House what used to be called River House in the last year; could he tell me what the average length of stay would be for those women and how many at any one time River House can accommodate? MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, if the figure of 3,444 admissions is for the Womens River House Centre since it was launched as a residential and non­ residential treatment centre for women, and that spans more than a year ... Mr. Chairman, if you'll just give me a minute. I don't know if I can give the honourable member that figure, Mr.

Chairman, I'm trying to see whether I can. But what we're talking about in terms of River House is a period of existence of some twelve years in which it had been a treatment centre for both women and men, and in 1979 it became exclusively a residential house for women alcoholics. Over the course of the past year I am advised that the clie ntele num bered about 235 women at Riv er House. MS. WESTBURY: When the Min ister says residential, he means people are sleeping there, living there, right? MR. SHERMAN: Right. MS. WESTBURY: So, how many at any one time can be in-residence at River House at any one time? MR.

SHERMAN: There are 14 beds in River House, Mr. Chairman, and the treatment of course lasts for 21 days, so every 21 days, those 14 beds can turn over. MS. WESTBURY: Thank you. Would the Minister give us a breakdown for the year 19 80 of the grants that were made to private agencies through the Alcoholism Foundation? MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, the grants for 19 80-81 for external agencies, for the Church ill Health Centre, $29,400; for Fort Alexander, $35,500; for Kia Zan, $1 12 ,200; for the Main Street Project, $395 ,500; for the Na tive Alcoholism Council, $1 07,900; for the Salvation Army, $1 27,800; for The Pas Health Comp lex, $296,800; for X-Kala y, $1 06,800; and the Alcare Resource Centre was in 1739 our package last year, as the honourable member knows, and the figure for the Alcare Resource Centre last year, am I correct in saying it was $1 76,700?

For Alcare, it was $1 76,700 last year; this year Alcare is part of the AFM operation. The amou nts that I have just provided to the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge are the 19 80-81 grants and in all cases they are inc reased this year, or the request in my Estima tes is that they be incr eased this year.

For the Churchill Health Centre, I am ask ing the comm ittee for $45,000; for Fort Alexander, $36, 10 0; for Kia Zan, $1 23,000; for the Ma in Street Project , $485, 10 0; for the Na tive Alcoholism Council, $11 8,900; for the Salvation Army, $1 39,8 00; for The Pas Health Compl ex, $391,8 00; and for X-Kalay, $1 1 8,600.00. We are absorbing Alcare and it will cost us, we project, about $2 1 5,000 out of the direct Foundation budget, to operate it. MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor: 4. pass.

Be it resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $6, 1 28,400 for Health - pass. 5. the Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: I wonder if we could follow the . . . adopted in the last few years, that is, to go to Admin istra tion, then Phar macare, Ambu la nce, Northern Patient Ambulance Program, and then go back to Personal Care Homes, Hospitals, and the Medicare Program, the three largest ones. MR. CHAIRMAN: To the Member for St. Bon iface, maybe if you would repeat the suggestion. MR.

DESJARDINS: I was suggesting that we go along, as we did last year, have the Administration and then go to the fifth line, Pharmacare, and keep the Personal Care Homes, Hospital and Medical Programs, until the end. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, before we do that, for the benefit of the comm ittee and the press, could I take two minutes and annou nce the 19 81- 82 Manitoba Health Services Commission Capital Program approved by government for planning and construct ion? The program, Mr.

Chairman, calls for a capital bor rowing autho rity of $34,650,000, which is in addition to the $200 million worth of capital health facility construction that has been approved and is under way, either in planning or construc tion, as of 19 78. The total annual impact on the budget of the Ma nitoba Health Services Commission, when the facilities approved for construction in the 19 81- 82 list are open and operating, will be $8.0 11 million. The items, Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to say, include the repla cement of the old 34-bed wing at the Fairview Personal Care Home in Brandon.

The reason why the column on bed changes shows a reduction of 16 beds is because there are two very old hostel residences operated by the Salvation Army in Br andon, Bull och Booth and Eventi de. Bulloch Booth contains 24 beds, Eventide contains 42; for a total of 66. They will be replaced by a new 50-bed personal care home which creates the reduction overall of beds in the amount of 16 beds but that is a project that the Salvation Army has embarked upon, so we don't include that in the

Monday, 16 March, 1981 MH SC capital borrowing authority. The capital borrowing authority shown, the $2 million, is for the replacement of the older wing at Fairview. There is $1. 7 million committed, Mr. Chairman, to a new 20-bed personal care in Glenboro, to replace the old so-called Glen boro Senior Citizen's Home, which func tions as a personal care home; $3 .2 million to replace Resthaven in Steinbach with an 80- bed personal care home; $1. 6 million to replace the Menno Home in Grunthal with a 40-bed personal care home; $1. 5 mil lion to repla ce the Arborg Hospital.

Gladstone will experience an upgrading of its hospital. I have put a question mark beside the $1. 4 million. That expenditure has been appro ved by Cabinet and I would certai nly seek the approval of the comm ittee and the Hous e to expend that amount, if necessary, but it should not be construed as necessarily the final amount. The final amount may be substantially less than that. There is still some disagreement as to the extent of the upgrading work to be done, but that would be the ultimate, if one side of the discussion prevailed over the other.

Th ere will be a new 20- bed ps ychiatric rehabilitation facility built at the Gr ace Hospital; a new personal care home juxtaposed to the hospital in Manitou plus renovations to that hospital, it'll be a 20-bed personal care home; $2,250 ,000 to replace the Mount Carmel Clini c with a new building; $6 million in total for Phase I of redev elopment of the St. Bonif ace Hospital, and this first phase includes the acq ui sition and establis hment of a lin ear accelerator and a CAT scanner.

As members of the commi ttee know there is a CAT scanner at the Health Sciences Centre, but it's heavily worked, overworked one might say, and this will provide Manitoba with a second CAT scanner. So we'll have one CAT scanner for every half million people, which is a reasonable ratio. There's certainly some North American jurisdictions which have more than that, but there's a great many that have less than that, and one for every half million is considered a reasonable ratio. $1.5 million to expand and renovate the Emer gency Department in the Ph ysio and Occupational Therapy Units at the Victoria Hospital.

We are proceeding with the R.H. Institute Project and intend to ensure that Manitoba through the R.H. Institute shares equally in the high tech nology industry of blood fractionation, the fract ionation of blood plasma, which will continue to be gathered and collected by the Red Cross and continued to be a voluntary system and continue to be non-profit. Finally, Sir, $3 mil lion conti ng ency, which is maintenance and upgrading, and $ 1.5 million for fire safety upgrading, for the total borrowing authority commitment of $34,650,000.00. MR. CHAIRMAN: I think the Chairman needs a little guidance at this moment.

Are we going line-by-line under the suggestion by the Mem ber for St. Boniface? The Member for St. Bonif ace. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, that has already been agreed, but I think that maybe at this time without comments on this, I think the Minister would allow questions for clarification purposes at this time and then later on we will talk about personal care homes, because I have a few such questions to ask, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Line 1, Admi nistration. MR.

DESJARDINS: No, before we start that, just on the Capital Projects, the planning and construction, the Minister has agreed to answer questions for clarification at this time, not policies or anything like that, that will be taken when we go line-by-line. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to know what is the total amount that we approved last year for this program and what has been spent so far. That is one of the questions I ... MR. SHERMAN: Just a minute, Mr. Chairman, I think I can probably answer that. Over all, Mr.

Chairman, we're looking at some $200 million in capital construction approved by the government since 19 78. I think if I can just have one minute I can give the honourable member the breakdown on that. MR. DESJARDINS: While he's looking for that, Mr. Chairman, what I'm driving at is to have - you know, we appr oved that at the start of the year, has there been any changes? What has been spent of the approval and is there any repetition here of last year's approval? And that is the total cost I think that we have in front of us, that will not be all spent this year. Am I right?

Do you have the date, the estimated year of completion? And also is that in this year, this present-time dollars at this time? It might have to increase, right? You can't tell the future. MR. SHERMAN: That's right, Mr. Chairman, that's in 1981- 82 dolla rs and the list is new. There is nothing in this list tha t has been previou sly approved. These are all new items. Mr. Chairman, I think I can, if the Member for St. Bon iface can bear with me to a degree, I think I can gi ve him the an swers to his questions. (Interjection)- I know, but what I'm trying to get is the individual . . . MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, the thing that we used to do it and I think it was helpful, we had the total amount when we announced a program and then we had in different years what would be spent. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I can probably give it to the member if he'll just bear with me while I try to transpose figur es. The Member for St. Boniface is asking for the 19 80-61 program. MR. DESJARDINS: That's right, 19 80-8 1 program. But you know, we can have that tomorrow. MR. SHERMAN: The 19 80-8 1 program project-by­ project? MR. DESJARDINS: Not necessarily. Mr.

Chairman, if I can have the attention of the Minister, I think that what we used to do and I think it was helpful and I'd like to . have that, when we had an approval like this we have the total estimated cost and if it was to be completed in three years, we had approximately the amount every year. That was a good guideline and I'd like to have this for this new one, because some of them will not be finished until 19 84 and I would 1740

Monday, 16 March, 1981 like to know from last year - you know, I don't remember the amount.

Two years ago was $50 million was it, or was it last year? - what has been spent of that a year and how it's going, a kind of a progressive report. it's okay to approve these things, but there's a lot of money involv ed and it seems the least we can ask, and maybe we should serve notice on the Min ister now instead of making it more difficult for him at this time, if he can be ready for that when we deal with personal care homes then and hospitals; have a progressive report of what we have approved for him over the last few years, until one is finished and then we're finished with this one and then give us an estimate also of how this will be broken down, what will be done this year and then the following year, until the date of completion. it's an estimate, we understand that something can happen and it's not possible to follow it to the letter but it gives us a better idea, I think, and if there has been any chang es; is everyth ing going that we approved last year, or was something cancelled for some reason or other or delayed or frozen or whatever.

MR. SHERMAN: I can certainly do that for the honourable member, Mr. Chairman. I can give him the whole total right now of the number of projects that are under way; it's just that I don't want to mix years.

For example, projects that are under way right now such as phase one redevelopment of the Health Sciences Centre which is $75.6 million, I have lis ted in the 19 80-8 1 capital program list and I just want to make sure that I am giving him 19 79-80 and 19 80-8 1 properly separated, but I have in front of me a prog ress report on every project that has been approved by this government since 19 77-78; how far along they are . . . MR. DESJARDINS: Could we ask the Minister to give us a copy of that for our next meeting; all of it? MR.

SHERMAN: Yes, I can do that, but it would be a little difficult tonight to try to transpose. MR. DESJARDINS: That's right, it would be better if we had something in front of us and then we could look at the announcement of the previous years and we'll see where it's at; that' all we want. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Transcona. MR.

PARASIUK: I would just like to make a brief comment on the overall picture given us by the Minister in terms of the capital projects which I think probably don't relate to any particular line because they are capital, but the Minister has given them to us and given them to the press and I think they warrant a brief comment. In looking at this list, it's almost as if the Minister has responded to past crises highlighted by us or the press. I look at Brandon Fairview which was raised repeatedly by my colleague, the Member for Brandon East, in response to the Fire Commissioner's reports, other reports.

Finally after raising it, I'm glad there's some movement there. Steinbach and Grunthal were probably raised more so by the Winnipeg Tribune when they were following the Cabinet on what turned out to be a somewhat disastrous tour by them of the 1741 southeast when they ran into Mr. Dyck and other people complaining that nothing had been done with respect to these non-profit homes. In Manitou, I don't know, that one possibly isn't in response to any major crises that I heard, but I know that Victoria Hospital, last year the head of the hospital was compla ining about the problems there at Victoria.

So 1 see a number of responses to crises. I'm glad they have finally come about, but I don '.t know whether in fact this is what I would call part of any type of syst ematic plan that might have been established over the past years.

Another addition, I think, that has occurred because of public pressure and the tremendous outbur st of outrage at the comments directed against the Mount Carmel Clinic last year by one of the government members, I think in response to that public outrage, the government has come through with a commitment, again a comm itment they should have made earlier with respect to Mount Carmel Clinic. Again, we welcome those types of responses; we're sorry they hadn't been made sooner.

If you look at the net additions in personal care home beds, we're really talking only about a net addition of 21, which overall, I bel ieve, is probably insufficient; certainly insufficient given the backlog that exists and given the fact that a number of non-profit community religious and service groups have indeed applied and are waiting to proceed with the construction of much needed personal care homes. From what we have been able to discern there are at least 1, 000 people on waiting lists, waiting to get into these personal care homes and a net addition of 21 is a pretty paltry addition to say the least.

However, to give the government its due, I must say that we are extremely pleased that it would appear that those personal care homes that have received approval this year are indeed non-profit personal care homes. I am glad the Minister seems to be conceding in his actions that his policy with respect to private corporations being involv ed in the provision of personal care through personal care homes is indeed mistaken.

I am glad that this year the Minister is proceed ing in a way that I think takes into account the tremendous services being provided in the whole area of personal home care by non­ profit groups. In that respect, although it's only an addition of 21, and that addition of 21, I'm glad that the Minister has recognized our position with respect to non-profit personal care homes.

We feel that position is consis tent with the postion taken by the government with respect to the RH Institute and I hope that the Minister will continue on this line that we in fact have advocated for some time now and which we believe is the right way in which to provide needed personal home care. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Rouge. MS. WESTBURY: I wonder if the Minister could tell us how much of this project cost, if any, is Federal Government money; particularly, I thought the RH Blood Fractionation was Federal money - no, none of it? MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, there is no Federal money as such involved in any of these projects. Certainly the budget of the Manitoba Health Services

Monday, 16 March, 1981 Com mission is met through a gl ob al amount of money that the Minister of Health, whoever she or he may be is able to extract from his colleagues and Treasury Board and Finance and Cabinet and it pays for the cap ital debt repayment amortization and operating costs of all these projects; all those that are existing and all those coming into existence and that is a mix of provincial and federal money, but there is no direct Federal funding applied to any of these projects. Mr. Chairman, I would just like to respond briefly to the Mem ber for Transcona.

I appr eciate his remarks, but I want to say that I have been on record for the past year as stating that the emphasis in personal care construction in the coming year was going to have to be on the replacement of some old time-expi red personal care homes in Westman and other parts of the province. This is a start on that plan.

There are more to be done and they will have to be add ressed in next year's program, but I can assure him that one of the reasons why I was di smayed by the publicity that he refers to is that the the board members and the officials at the homes concerned were fully aware tha t we had these projects down as major priorities for the coming year but we hadn't been able to announce them officially obviously because the government simply can't do that on an ad hoc basis throughout the year except in the case of absolute emergencies.

I just want to disabuse him of the impression he may have that it was a response to some publicity at that time. We have in the past three years authorized and ap proved for construc tion a total of 841 personal care beds of which some one-half or slightly more will come on stream in 1981 and the other half will be opened by 19 82, so tha t the figur e for personal car.e bed additions in this pr ogram , although it may look minimal at 21 beds, is not a fair reflect ion of wha t ha s been happening in the personal care field. We have been building and are bu1lding new personal care beds.

What we are doing here is replacing old personal care beds and it doesn't add up to very much in the way of an increase in numbers to be sure. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Seven Oaks. MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, the Minister may not have this information but I will ask it now, he can get it later. Mount Carmel Clinic which is neither a hospital nor a personal care home replacement of the existing clinic building, firstly is it on the site that was picked for them in 19 77 - is that the site where it's going to be, and secondly, how is this going to be paid for?

They're not on a per diem in the sense of a personal care home which is on a bed per diem or a hospital for that matter, so how is this going to be financed? Is it going to be the MH SC that builds the building and retires the debt? I'm curious. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, the site is the one that was selected several years ago.

Insofar as the capital deb t repay ment, the amorti zation of the capital debt is done in the same way as in the case of other health facilities but there is a slight difference in that they don't operate on the per diem basis that some other health facilities do, but we through Moun t Carmel, make the capital debt repayments based on the amortization of that debt over a 25- or 30- or 35-year mortgage. MR. MILLER: So I'm assuming then it's somewhat similar to the way the Finance Board, the public schools Finance board, retires a debt on a school building.

Their annual grants include the amount necessary for that year's retirement. MR. SHERMA -N: Yes. MR. MILLER: Okay. Is Mount Carmel Clinic going to be required to put up a certain amount of this in the way of up front capital? MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that the answer is yes. Mount Carmel is putting up some money over and above the capital commitment being made here in this program of $2.25 million. They have indi cated that they wish some additional configuration to that which would be provided by this $2.25 million and they are prepared to put up the adduional.

I can't tell the honourable member exactly what it is. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Bon iface. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, the Minister is announcing his construction program now. Last year there was a cert ain poli cy announced on the propr ietary nursing home and of cou rse that wouldn't be shown here. If anything, could the Minister report on that? I think there was something in Selkirk and so on. Could we get something on that with the other material that the Minister has promised us also? MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I can report on part of that right now.

The personal care home in Selkirk which is Red River Place, which will be 10 4 beds, replacing the former 72-bed personal care home is scheduled to open on August 1s t of this year; Au gust 1s t, 19 81. That's private, that's proprietary. There are five propri etary homes in the overall package. Up until toda y ther e were 22 Personal Care Homes unde r construction in one phase or another; in some cases it was final design and in most cases it's actual physical construction. 17 of them non-p ropriet ary and 5 of them proprietary.

That number now, of course, increases with the personal care homes replacements that are announc ed in this Capital Pr ogram, but the 5 Proprietary ones are . MR. DESJARDINS: Ther e is no incr ease in proprie tary? MR. SHERMAN: No, no increase in proprietary. The 5 prop rietary ones include 3 in Winn ipeg , 1 in Portage, and the 1 in Selkirk, which is Red River Place. MR. DESJARDINS: Can the Minister give us the same information on all of them as he did on the Selkirk one? MR.

SHERMAN: Yes, the 3 in Winnipeg are: The Maples, which is being built in West Kildonan, and is 200 beds and is due to open on September 1s t of this year. MR. DESJARDINS: That's replacing how many beds? Is that a brand new one? 1742

Monday, 16 March, 1981 MR. SHERMAN: Well, I can give him the totaL That is a combina tion of some proprietary beds that were in place before and had been closed down or phased down in the program of the winter of 1977-78. MR. DESJARDINS: How many of those beds did they have; in other words, when this is all finished how many new beds will it give us? MR. SHERMAN: In total, the proprietary program that's under way will produce 120 more propri etary beds than were in existence before. MR. DESJARDINS: You can't give us that for each one of them, like you did for Selkirk? MR.

SHERMAN: Well, I can pretty well, pretty well if I work through the list. Let me try it this way. When we addressed the problem in the winter of '77-'78, we were looking at 302 proprietary beds. We closed 19 4 of them at that time, and there's still 108 of those to be closed. That was the total of 302. Then to that was added the Selkirk Nur sing Home, which was 72 beds, so that made a total of 37 4 proprie tary beds being replaced .

When these 5 proprietary homes are opened and operating, the 3 m Winnipeg, the 1 in Selkirk and the 1 in Portage, they comb ined add up to 494 proprietary beds as against 374 in the old configuration, so it's a net increase of 12 0 proprietary beds. The Ma ples is 200 beds, due to open on September 1st, in West Kildon an, September 1st, 198 1; Selkirk we've dealt with; Vista Park Place is another of the proprie tary operators who were phased down or clos ed down.

They will open on January 1s t, 1982 - 10 0 beds.; in Portage, which was the Holiday Retreat, it was 50 beds at the time we phased it down to 25 and those 25 patients were transferred into the Lions Manor in Portage. That remaining 25-bed facility is to be replaced by a new 50-bed facility, which is scheduled to open on April 1st, 1982. The other one, Mr. Chairman, is the Golden Door which was to be a 40-bed extension of the Golde� Door on Pembina Highway in Winnipeg, due to open on April 1s t, 1982. lt was to replace the Nightingale Nursing Home here in the Roslyn Road-Fort Rouge area of Winnipeg.

That accounts for the 494 as against the 374, I believe. MR. DESJARDINS: We've got the 494, and that's quite helpfuL We have the projected date of opening, that's fine. Now, if we can get those 302 that were close. We already have 72 out of the 374 in Selkirk. If we can get the approximate 302, the 194 that were closed and the 108. If we could relate it to this, then my record would be complete on this. MR. SHERMAN: The 194, I think we can identify, the 19 4 were homes in the Roslyn Road-Fort Rouge area of Winnipeg plus the 25 that I've referred to at Portage.

If that 194 that were closed in the winter of '77 -'78, they included homes like the Thorvaldson Nursing Home. MR. DESJARDINS: Alright if you want to go by owners then, which one is Thorvaldson of the 5 here? MR. SHERMAN: He's not operating individually in the field , Mr . Chairman. His beds have been 1743 allo cated in the 200 allotment that has gone to The Ma ples, that was a com bination of several proprietary owners. MR. DESJARDINS: How many did we close in those same proprietary then? -(I nterjection)- Not only Tho rvaldson but all those that are replaced by Maples. MR. SHERMAN: Probably about 169, Mr.

Chairman. The closur es that are coming up, the 18 0 closures that are coming up are 72 in Selkirk, and of the other 10 8, 20 are the Nightingale here in Winnipeg that's being clos ed and is scheduled to be replaced by that 40-bed extension on the Golden Door; 25 are the remainding 25 at the Holiday Retreat in Portage, which are to be closed down and replaced by the new 50-bed home in Portage; and the other 63 are com bined between the Curran, Arcadia and Mayfair Nursing Homes in Winnipeg, again in that central Fort Rouge-Ro slyn Road area of the city.

The Curran; The Arcadia and the Mayfair, they add up to 63, and that's the 18 0 that still have to be closed against the 19 4 that have been closed. MR. DESJARDINS: Now we're getting somewhere and now we just need the 194. MR. SHERMAN: The 19 4, 25 of them would have been in Portage and of that 169, I'll have to check my records, Mr. Chairman, some of them I'v e forgotten their names. They were homes like the Curran, Arcadia, Mayfair, Thorvaldson, Nightingale, that group, but I've just forgotten their names. MR.

DESJARDINS: The remaining 169 then, right? 194 minus 25, so that leaves 16 9 would be replaced, would be the owners who are now building the 200 in Maples, the 10 0 in St. Vital; so between those 3, the 169 would come out of those 300? MR. SHERMAN: That's right. MR. DESJARDINS: 16 9 plus 63 that are going to close now? MR. SHERMAN: That's right. MR. DESJARDINS: So that's 232 of those? Okay. MR. SHERMAN: That's right.

They combined, some of the operators left the field and others combined, because many of thos e older homes as the honourable member knows were very small and they were actually operating in old residences, old family homes and today it just is not viable _ . . MR.

DESJARDINS: So, am I right in believing that this is what happened, that when they were closed they were in the department, the government then agreed to give them a replacement for that and it was only those people, they received a replacement for every one that was closed plus an additional 120, but there are no new owners, they might have formed a partnership instead of an individual thing, but there are no new owners that received anything, but they did receive 12 0 more, that were clos ed and will be closed when this is all finished, right? MR. SHERMAN: That's correct, Mr. Chairman.

Monday, 16 March, 1981 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Rouge. MS. WESTBURY: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I just have a couple of qu estions rela tive to this Capital Construction Program. In the Speech from the Throne we were told that we would be asked to consider long-term development plans for the Selkirk and Brandon Mental Health Centres and other measures to provide additional psychiatric care beds. Well, I see the new 20-bed Psychiatric Rehabilitation Facility at Grace Psychiatry, so perhaps that's the one referred to there. What about the long -term development plans for Brandon and Selkirk Mental Health Centre.

Are we going to see anything in these Estima tes? MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, they're under the Government Services Program. They're provincial build ings and prov ision for the fi rst phase regeneration of both of them is includ ed in the Estimates of the Government Services Department. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: Are we now on 5. Administration? MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, I hadn't called the line-by­ line. We're generalizing prior to ... MR. PARASIUK: I was waiting for that. MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Administration - the Member for Transcona. MR.

PARASIUK: I think we should get a report from the Minister on the whole status of the Manitoba Health Services Commission. Last year if you can recall, in Estimates the Mi nister indicated that there was some doubt as to whether in fact there was any validity in having the Ma nitoba Health Services Commission continue to exist in its present form; that there seemed to be some logic in folding the Mani toba Health Services Commission into the Department of Health. He said that last year in the Estimates process, he indicated that last year when he was asked questions by Justice Hall and Justice Hall's assistant.

I'm wondering if the Minister can indic ate what the plans of the Government are in this connection? MR. SHERMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't foresee any change in the status of the Manitoba Health Service Commission. Certainly there's been serious consideration given to folding it into or absorbing it into the Department of Health as a division of the Department of Health. I've dis cussed it with my colleagues and the other Health Ministers across the cou ntry, most of whom have gone through the experience; many of whom regret it, if I may say so.

There certainly have been opinions expressed in the past that have favoured consideration of that kind of a move. My experience is that it is preferable to have the Commission operate as a separate free­ standing Commission and that's the way I would intend to continue to operate as long as I am Minister, Mr. Chairman. MR. PARASIUK: The Minister is quite clear then. He said he has reviewed the situation; last year he said he was reviewing it and it was up in the air. This year he said that definitely he would not be folding it into the department; that's fair enough.

Then I think it leads on to the other question though, that still was outstanding at that time. One of the reasons the Minister indicated for not appointing a permanent Deputy Minister of Health is that he said there was this confusion or there was this unc ertainty as to whether in fact, given the new structur e of the department, the split of the Department of Health from that of Commu nity Services, whether in fact many of the functions that would be performed by a Deputy Minister of Health wouldn't in fact be performed in one way or another by the Manitoba Health Services Commission.

Well, the Minister has removed that uncertainty; therefore I think it is appropriate to ask, does that mean that the Government is going to act and act clearly in terms of establishing the appropriate managerial function for the Health Department on a full-time permanent basis as opposed to doing so on an acting basis? Furthermore, when the Minister was talking about the dif ferent roles of the Manitoba Health Services Commission and that of the Department of Health, he indicated that a great deal of planning for Health would in fact be done by the Ma nitoba Health Services Commission.

In fact, I wasn't quite sure whether he wasn't saying that all of the planning for Health would be done by the Manitoba Health Services Commission. Again, I look at the overall Estimates and I don't really see any overall planning function being called for in these Estimates. The Minister, having removed uncertainty with respect to whether in fact the Health Services Commission would be folded in, I think he should clari fy that function as well. Is there then going to be an overall planning function? Who will it be done by? Who can we ask, in reviewing these Estimates, who can we look at?

Which appropriation should we look at to determine whether in fact this job is being done adequ ately or inadequately? MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, if I ever at any time gave the impression to the honourable member that overall planning would be handl ed by the Commissi on, then I apologiz e for poor commun ication because that is certainly not the intention. The Commission does function on an ongoing and continuing basis in the area of operational planning.

In the area of planning and construction of facilities, for example, da y-to-da y operat ional planning ob ligations and resp onsibil ities, but lon g-term planning is not seen, not envisa ged by the government as a function exclusiv ely of the Manitoba Health Services Commission.

Part of our problem, I think, on the public health side in Manitoba, and I think it's true in many other jurisdictions, has been that there has developed, over the past 10 to 20 years, an intens e preoccupation with some of the more high profile, perhaps even more gl amorous programs in the health field that have come under the universal insurance programs of Medic are and Hospitalization and personal care and like organ izations. As a cons equenc e, there has been a problem in maintaining both the morale and the authoriW and the interest of the public health side of the department.

We are making intensive efforts to 1744

Monday, 16 March, 1981 strengthen, reinforce and revive that public health role and that public health status. We are looking for professional medical expertise to recruit into public health and we are looking for arrangements with Communi ty Services that will give our med ical officers of health and our professional medic al experts the kind of role and the kind of authority that is rewarding and gratifying and that encourages doctors, nur ses and other professional medical personnel to serve in the public health field.

Long-term planning is concerned with that function of health in addition to many other problems and challenges in the health field. We are setting up a lon g-term planning com pon ent, or a long -term planning branch that will serve as a link between the public health side of the department and the Commission. We intend to involve the Commission much more deeply in the problems and the challenges of public health and to involve public health in awareness of the problems and challenges of the Commission. That was one reason for thinking of folding the Commission into the department in the first place.

We think we can accomplish that by this other method, maintain the Commission separately but providing that link or conduit which will take the form of a long -term planning component, to which there will be input from the Commission and from the public health side and from the outside, outside expertise on which we want to call. So the Commission will participate in long-term planning but with no greater profile or no greater status than will the public health side.

Insofar as the question of the Deputy Minister is concerned , the feeling at the time we were giving consideration to folding the Commission in was that most of the administration really falls under the aegis of the Commission 's opera tion, whether it is a sepa rate opera tion or part of a departmental operation and therefore the question of a permanent Deputy Minister was perhaps not as urgent and the resolution of it was perhaps not as urgent at that time as some mc:.y have thought.

Having made the decision to keep the Commission where it is and to establish this long-term planning link and liaison capacity between the two operations, we are addressing the qu estion of a permanent Deputy Minister. I am perfectly happy with my Acting Deput y Min ister, Dr. Johnson, and I have no hesitation in saying so.

When one comes to consider the appointment of a permanent Deputy Minister, you have to take into consideration the feel ings of the individual himself or herself, as well as the desires of the department, and that simply hasn't been resolved yet. it has not impeded the operation of the department in any way but I would agree that, in general terms, certainly as a principle and as a practice from an ongoing point of view and from the point of view of the future, that we do want to clear up that uncertainty and we will be clearing up that uncertainty as quickly as we can this year. MR.

PARASIUK: I just want to add a footnote to the Minister's last statement, that I think it is difficult estab lishing a lon g-r ange planning function and estab li shing this link with the Ma nitoba Health Services Commission, recruiting people, if you don't attempt to put in place a permanent Deputy Minister. Ministers tend to come and go a bit more quickly than deputies do and I would think that at the 1745 management level, the Deputy will play a critical role in putting together capable people in the health care area. it is dif ficult getting the proper tech nical people.

I think there have been some advancements in the last while in this respect. In the past it struck me that people tended to argue that it's a necessary condition of being a good health care planner that one be a doctor. That, in fact, isn't necessarily true.

There are schools developing of health care administration· where I think, in some respects, they have been able to show very clearly that there are matters of allocation required, allocation of resources to different aspects of health care that may in fact not have been questions that haven't really been provided for in the training that doctors receive, a whole area of health care management, health care administration.

So I think it's important to develop this long-term thrust and I say that I think the uncertainty has created uncertainty throughout the department and has led to a situation where I don't think there is any long-range planning. I know that was the thrust of the predecessors of the present Minister of Health and therefore I say that has been unfortunate and I hope it is cleared up as quickly as possible. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Rouge. MS. WESTBURY: Yes, I'm not going to take very long on this line, Mr. Chairman, but I wanted to ask about the recommendations and comments in the Spi vak Task Force Report.

The Task Force com mented that the rel ationships among the Ma nitoba Health Services Commission, the Department, and the health care institutions are unsa tisfactory at present. He said , "the Commission's role has been weakened in recent years as a result of direct approaches to the Minister by pro fe ssional gr oups, boards of the health ins titutions and the commu nities.

This may be inevitable in the light of the magnitude of MHSC budgets and their impact on government revenues." In their rec ommendations, they say that the MHSC, to the extent that many matters are bypassing the Commi ssion, is not fulfilling the role originally conceived for it. I'm sure that the Minister is aware of the rest of the reco mmendation. They were talking about moving towards a departmental structure, which the Minister has just sort of shot down.

What I really want to ask, and I'm not even suggesting that is the answer either, but I'm asking if the position of the Commission has been strengthened in view of the com ments and the observations that were made in the Spivak Task Force Report, so that there will be more clear-cut delin eations between the department and the Commission and the Minister's office. Is the Minister satisfied that these dif ferent institutions have been strengthened and their positions clear-cut, in view of these comments? MR. SHERMAN: I think, Mr.

Chairman, that there was certainly some truth in the recom mendation findings and rec ommendations of the Task Force and the conclusions that they reached at that time. That was one reason why the government which was ele cted in 1977 and appo inted that Task Force, looked very hard at the whole question of folding the Commission in.

Monday, 16 March, 1981 We have made some changes however, and the most significant and meaningful one, really, was dividing the role of the chairman and the chief executive officer. The Executive Director of the Commission, as you know, is Mr. Reg Edwards, on my left, and the Chairman of the Commission Board, is Mr. Gordon Pollock.

That was a deli berate move that paralleled the moves that were made in the Manitoba Telephone System, Manitoba Hydro and Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation and I think that although change s of that kind are always difficult for everybody, I think it has worked out very positively and that some of the rationale for some of the things that the Spivak Task Force recommended no longer exists. In this day and age I think, and I'm sure the Member for Seven Oaks and the Member for St.

Bonif ace would agree with me, it's impossible for a Mi nister of Health to escape the pressures of boards and advocacy groups, but I think that it's kept to a minimum by the Comm ission and the way the Commission operates and the procedures which Mr. Edwards carries out in service to the Commission and to the Minister and the procedures which the board carries out. I think it's minimized as much as it can be, but over and above that, I just want to suggest that I think there's another argument for keeping the Commission where it is. The Commission has essentially got a good reputation.

Certainly people can always find things to criticize about anything and the Task Force had some criticisms but essentially it has a very good reputation and it's not regarded really, either as a political football or is it put in the position of being a political football.

The Minister, whoever he may be, from whatever government is in office, takes the questions a:nd the criticisms and the com ments in the House and outside the House, as he should do on matters relating to health care and the Commission is spared a good deal of that difficulty and I think it's a good thing that it is, because it would exhaust a great deal of effort and energy on the Commission's part, in its officers and its administrators and its personnel, if it had to defend itself as su bjects of direct political debate. I think that's one very strong advantage to having a separate Commission.

But I don't think it's a clear-cut or easy question to answer either way. I can understand why some provinces have abolis hed their Commis sions. There is cer tainl y a strong sentiment on the part of some politicians that you get better financial control if the Commission has to go through Treasury Board, the same as all the rest of us do, rather than being its own banker or its own administrator of its own funds. I get an argument from Mr. Edwards on that, I know, but there's is certainly politicians who feel very strongly that way. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Rouge. MS.

WESTBURY: Just one more short question relating to the Spival Task Force. There was a recommendation that perhaps a council on health should be established similar to that in Ontario. I know that you've been very busy with the Council on Aging and I don't expect two councils in one year, but has that idea been totally abandoned or was it ever seriously considered? MR. SHERMAN: it's ce rtainly been seriously consider ed in probably a slightly different format.

In fact when we were looking at the absorption of the Commission, we were addressing at that time the future use of those personnel who constitute the Commission board and we were considering using the Commission board as the basis or the nucleus of a council of health or an advisory council to which would be added some representation from other fields and disciplines, so it was given consideration in that context.

At the present time I think we would look at the long -term planning component as a reasonable substitute for that council on health. lt would be designed to draw on the resources in the commun ity in whatever field or discipline relative to our health issues and health problems might arise, as we want it to draw and recruit and seco nd, so it would be an advisory council in that sense. That's as far as we've gone with the concept, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I' d lik e to comment on the last subject that was brought up.

I agree with the Min ister one hundr ed percent. I wouldn't lose too much sleep or too much time in trying to determine if we should abandon, if we should do away with the Commission. I don't think it would be wise; I think it serves a purpose. But I disagree with the Minister and he's the one that brought it up, that's the only reason why I wanted to respond. The Minister stated that the most meaningful thing that was done under the administration was to separate the Chairman of the Commission and the Chief Adminis trator, or whatever the title is.

And the comparisons that he made, I don't think are valid, and I don't agree with that and I think that if we went back in office I think we'd probably go back to the old system and I want to tell the Minister why. lt was fine when the Commission generated revenue of their own and that's why I say the comparisons are not good, because the Liquor Commission and the Telephone have their own revenue and they are very much left alone in many ways. The government will spell out certain policies and then they will be left alone.

Mind you they will have to come and ask the government if there's an increase in rates, if they need more money for something and that could be refused, but then they will work within their budget, with the money that they have and if they want someth ing new or something more, if they want to expand, they have to get the permission to increase the rates, but once that is done they run their own affairs and that's the way it should be.

Well, the Commission will never be totally independent. lt is impossible in this new - the government more and more, as they accept certain responsibility will have to accept, I mean, as they go forward in that field , for instance of ensuring personal care homes, which is rather new and more of these things, and if it's an ensured program or a universal program, then the government decides.

And I think that the Commission certainly has a role, for instance, if the Minister and the government decides that there's going to be so many doll ars spent for new beds, I think then the politicians should get the hell out and let the, in general, and let the Commission decide where so then it would keep 1746

Monday, 16 March, 1981 this element of partisanship out of it and it would be where the need be and then it would make it easier for the politician and the Minister, also for all the pressure, well we need personal care home, we need this, and I can assure the Minister that this is what we did. And I think that the Minister in general did pretty well the same thing, because what was frozen of our program that we had announced, our five-year program, I think they're all in there. Some of them were modif ied with times and I'm sure that was a recommendation of the Commission.

There's only one, one glaring excep tion. lt was the one that was replaced and then all of a sudden out of the clear blu e skies came the one in Enns' constituency, but we covered that last year; I don't intend to bring that out again. And I think it could be very difficult because if the Commission is free to go ahead and make all kinds of policies and statements, then the Minister will say, hey, just a minute, you know, you 're coming to us, we're responsible for everything and that is one of the reasons why we are spending time in the Commission.

I remember when I started in this House and for many, well in fact, I think it was not until I became the Minister, that we said here, we're going to take this or maybe in the time of Mr. Miller, that we said we're going to look at it line by line, that we insist, because we felt we had that responsibili ty. And I remember the total amount was quite a large sum in those days when Pickering was the Chairman and so on, and that was passed with no question. That was, you know, decided at the Commission, but in those days, as I say they generate their own revenue in the premiums and that has been abolished.

You know, it's no use, we can pretend, we're not fooling anybody. We can pretend that the Commission is deciding but we're not doing that, so that the reason why the Chief Executive Dir ector was made the Chairman at the time, because he was always in conta ct with the Minister. He give the leadership to the Commission, but within the guidelines and the direction of government. I don't mean by that the government crossed every "t" and dotted every "i".

As I say they came in, if we said we're well, okay, they came out and they said, well we need so many beds, we went along with that and they had the expertise there. And yes, the Minister is right, they've got a very good name and it's a very good Commission; second to none. And the Minister is right in stating that some of the other provinces now are sorry that they went that far.

So I go along with the Minister in everything and he might not consider that important, although he did say that was the most important thing that they did and I think it is a natural for the Chairman, and especially we had a policy comm ittee in that day and if the Mini ster is saying that there's going to something else that the Commission is going to plan, but not alone with the rest of the Commission, that existed. We had a planning comm ittee where the Commission came in and was a membmer of the Advisory and Planning Committee.

So, you know, I'm not damning the Min ister for that, it was the Fairview, that they should separate that, but we went upon records saying that we don't agree with them and if we had changed we would probably marry the two again.

I think that it would be everyt hing above boar d and the Chair man would give the 1747 leadership to the Commission, would be independent in many ways but then he would go along and develop these things and give guida nce to the rest of the commis sioner, staying within the boundaries of what the government want, because it is very very easy also to get carried away and decide on their own and it should be done by the government because the taxpayers are paying the full shot now, not with premiums, but with tax dollars.

And it is up to, not the Commission, the Commission can make a recommendation, it can still do it now. lt doesn't matter if the Chairman is a person who's on there every day. I think is more useful then somebody who is going to come in once or twice a month for meetings. So I think it's, even when they're discussing with doctors, we're not going to pretend that it's all left in the hands of the Commission. The Commission starts the ball rolling, does the work, but eventually the money has to be approved , first by the Minister and then by the Cabinet.

And I think the present Minister accepted those responsibili ties the same as I did and my colleague also, so that is one of the reasons that I feel that it worked very well before, if the Minister is satisfied that it is working well now, sobeit, but I don't think that was an improvement in anything at all. Mr. Chairman, I think that we agree that we would finish this line of administration.

The revenue will come in and they go directly to the hospital, like for instance, the third party of the personal care home and in the hospital, the people that have been panelled as personal care homes so we'll have a chance to cover that. But before we finish that, I would like the Minister if he could go through, I've got the last Annual Report and I'd like to write in there the administrative expenses and I'd like to know percentage-wise, how much are they spending, because I think that we had a enviable record in those days. We had one of the best and I hope that we're maintaining that.

And I'm talking about, I've got page 48 now in the annual report - (Interjection)- Well, I've got this one, they're the same, I think this was the initial one and this is the final one, is it? Reg, this is the final one? Okay, on Page 48 on this one, I wonder if the Minister could go slowly so we can write it down, we have 19 80, and the expens e of runnin g the admin istrativ e schedule. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, the breakdown of the adminis trative costs are as follows: Bank ch arges, what we're budgeting for 1981- 82 as against what was voted in 197 9-80 - that's what the honourable member wanted 198 1-82, $92,000; 19 80-81 was $79,000.00. MR. DESJARDINS: $92,000, I don't know, but 1980, that I have here is $61 ,000.00. MR. SHERMAN: That would have been 19 79-80. MR. DESJARDINS: Well the last one that we had that finished in March 19 80. That's the last one we have. MR. SHERMAN: What 1 am looking at is 19 80-8 1, so I'll have to get the 19 79-80 ones. MR.

DESJARDINS: Your year is the same, it ends up in March, now. The last one I have for 19 80 .. j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j

Monday, 16 March, 1981 MR. SHERMAN: Here's what I'm looking at, and that is not the way it's laid out in the Annual Report. MR. DESJARDINS: This is the new one, this is what you are asking for now, that's the $1 0,289,000.00. MR. SHERMAN: But it shows 19 80-8 1, and then it shows what we are asking in 198 1-82. MR. DESJARDINS: Okay, yes, that's what I wanted. MR. SHERMAN: Is that all right? MR. DESJARDINS: What's the big difference, the inc rease in bank charge of $13 ,000.00? MR. SHERMAN: lt's substantial. That's the interest rates, of course.

Another large incr ease is reflected in empl oyer contributions; a la rge incr ease is reflected in postage and express. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I can also see the large incr ease, but what for, that's what I want to know from the Minister. I can read. What is the 66 for, the large increase? Just a word or two of ... MR. SHERMAN: Under emplo yer contributions? MR. DESJARDINS: Right. MR. SHERMAN: Largely as a result of rate incr eases in Unemloyment Insurance and Canada Pension Plan contributions. MR. DESJARDINS: You are locked into that any way. You can't do anything about it. MR. SHERMAN: No. MR.

DESJARDINS: $45,000, postage and express, $45,000 more. That seems to be a large one, that's a lot of stamps. MR. SHERMAN: Postage is up $40,000. Just a minute, there's $50,000 in there for publ icity and pub lic relations programs, which have not been undertaken, but you will recall that the Council on Aging suggested to us that one of the things that is very much in need in terms of the requirements of the elderly, is better information on the programs that are available and so we have provided $50,000 for public ity programs, but have not developed anything yet to acco unt for the spending.

We haven't developed any informational program that we can attribute to that yet, but the amount is in there so that we may do so. MR. DESJARDINS: Well that's a good idea in an election year. MR. SHERMAN: The addi tion al to that is the inc rease in postage. MR. DESJARDINS: That's a lot of stamps. MR. SHERMAN: lt's a lot of stamps, but it's a big increase that . . MR. DESJARDINS: Professional Consultant, I don't know if it's that big an increase, $29,000.00. MR.

SHERMAN: Those are the quantity surveyors, are they not; qu antity su rveyors and medical assesso rs, the Dental Review Committee, the Sta nding Committee on Medical Man power, the Provincial Auditor, the Phar macare Review Committee. MR. DESJARDINS: Salaries - there's been an incr ease now in the pay of what? That's for the commissioners isn't it? What are they paid now? What's the Chairman paid? MR. SHERMAN: The Chairman receives $7, 1 00, and MR. DESJARDINS: From what? MR. SHERMAN: The Chairman receives $7, 10 0 in 198 0-8 1.

What we have do ne is app roved an incr ease in remuneration for the Chairman, which will take that up from $7, 10 0 to $1 6,600.00. MR. DESJARDINS: Holy God, how come? That's not a full time - of cou rse it would be too low for a full time Chairman, but ... MR. SHERMAN: Because the time that the Chairman gives to the responsibili ties of his job and to the issues that the Commission deals with and advises the Minister on, justifies that kind of an incr ease in our view. MR. DESJARDINS: The other members? MR. SHERMAN: The other members receive $5,700.00.

The Deputy Minister who is the Vice­ Chairman of the Commission receives no remuneration. MR. DESJARDINS: You mean the Acting Deputy? From what, what is the increase to the member? MR. SHERMAN: lt hasn't increased. The member is still ... MR. DESJARDINS: lt's just the Chairman? MR. SHERMAN: lt's jus t the Chairman who increased. MR. DESJARDINS: Ju st a minute, I have an incr ease here of $988 - those are thousands of dollars right? MR. SHERMAN: That's on the original page that I gave you. That's the total salaries. MR. DESJARDJNS: Oh, that's the salary for the Commissioners and the staff. MR.

SHERMAN: That's the total Commission's staff salary. MR. DESJARDINS: Okay, fine. MR. CHAIRMAN: Administration - pass. MR. SHERMAN: Committee rise? MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise. 1748

Monday, 16 March, 1981 SUPPLY - CONSUMER AND CORPO RATE AFFAIRS AND ENVIRONMENT MR. CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): This comm ittee will come to order. I would direct the honourable members' attention to Page 33 of the Main Estimates, Consumer and Corporate Affairs and Environment. Resolution No. 40, Clause 5. Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation - the Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. BEN HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, jus t a minute or two before four-thirty this af ternoon, I had wanted to ask the Honourable Minister to comment on his second mortgage operation, which is shown in the report as the Homeowner's Assistance Program, offering second mortgages of $3,000 to $5,000 for the purcha se of property in the Meadows West Subdivision. Now, it appears, Mr. Chairman, that for the fiscal year ending March 31, 19 80, the program wasn't all that successful because - yes, as of March 31, 198 0, the total second mortgage loans all ocated were in the amount of $1 2,800, representing three homeowners.

Could the Minister bring us up-to-date - I'm sure that he probably can't up until today or yesterday, but could he give us the most recent figures for the current fiscal year that would give us some indication as to what success or failure he has had with this program? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. GARY FILMON (River He ights): Mr. Chairman, I am advised that the program only applies to the Meadows West Subdivision, that only 16 lots have been sold and that we only have the three mortgages that are indicated in the last annual report. MR.

HANUSCHAK: So is the Minister saying that there were no further applicants subsequent to these three? MR. FILMON: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. HANUSCHAK: Does MHRC have any funds appropriated for a Homeowner's Assistance Program for the forthcoming fiscal year? MR. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, the funds come out of the profits from the sale of lots in Meadows West and we haven't had a requirement for any more. MR. CHAIRMAN: (a) - pass - the Honourable Member for Wellington. MR. BRIAN CORRIN: Mr. Chairman, I want to go back to a matter that we were discussing in the afternoon, and for that matter, Mr.

Chairman, one that we have been discussing in a variety of dif ferent contexts throughout this session, even last year's sess ion. That is the qu estion of the Shelter Allo wances for Elderly Renters. I am wondering if the Minister can advise us why so few renters seem to be availing themselves of this particular program? I am concerned about this, Mr. Chairman, because it has been presented in the House as an alternative 1749 to rent controls, as an alternative to public housing for the elderly; it is described in a variety of different compl exions, a variety of different manners. Yet, Mr.

Chairman, the report indic ates that the subscription levels are very very low. As a matter of fact, I was just thumbing through the report. I made some notes and it seems to me that since Janu ary of 19 80, and I think that was when the first statistics were tabled in the House - that was under the former Minister - we have only had an inc rease of roughly, I would say about 800. I think the figures are, the former Minister, still the Mini ster of Economic Development, indicated in the House in January of 1980 that the program was being utili zed by 1,5 06 elderly renters. The report talks abou t 2,302.

Now, perhaps the report was not as detailed as it might have been. Maybe the report was referring to old data. I suppose to be in all fairness, can the Minister adv ise what num ber of people are actually subscribing to the SAFER Program itself as of this month, 19 81, because it's possible that there has been a very affirmative trend since the statistics were last dealt with as evidenced in the report? Can he tell us precisely what sort of numbers we are talking about? MR. FILMON: Mr.

Chairman, I am advised that the take-up is approxima tely at the same rate as what was experienced in B.C., which is the first province that introduced this type of program; that it took them two full years to achieve 50 percent of the potential take-up in the program and that we after one year have reached somewhere between 25 and 30 percent, so we appear to be on

schedule with that type of take-u p. lt could be that more advertising is required, it could be that other ways of making it known are necessary and we're certai nly taking a look at that, Mr. Chairman. MR. CORRIN: Well, I'm heartened to hear that the government is looking at ways of popula rizing or at least communic ating to the public the availability of this program. As I've said on several occasions in the past, I'm not one who is diametrically opposed to the Shelter Allo wance concept and approach.

I think it has some- val idi ty, it's worked very well in the Scandana vian countries, where it was originally conceived. it's a traditional program in Britain, where it has operated under both Labour and Conservative Governments for a long time. But, Mr. Chairman, I think although the Minister indicates that he feels the problem li es perhaps in public rela tions or advertising, I would think rather he should look at the numbers. I think his problem, if the government has a problem, is in the bookkeeping.

This has been, of course, alleged on a number of occasions by members on this side and for that matter, I think last Friday this was a matter raised, I suppose as a matter of conscience, by a government backbencher. I presume it was the Shelter Allo wance and how it worked on senior citizens tax credit exemptions that motivated him to publi cly disclose his interest in reforming certain tax policies that confront ed senior citizens. In any event, Mr.

Chairman, I think it's safe to say that we have a rather anomalous situation, which I suppos e arose only as a result, I presume it's nothing intentional, I suppose it results from some bureaucratic inefficiences, some mismanagement on j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j

Monday, 16 March, 1981 the part of government planners. But we have a contradiction in the assistance offered to seniors through the SAFER program and the assistance offered through our Property Tax Credit deductions. You know we ha ve a situation wher e people 's property tax credits are deducted from their SAFER allo wances, so the net effect, Mr. Chairman, is such that, or I should say the allo wances deducted from the Property Tax Credit, excuse me, so we have in effect a situation where a lot of senior citizens have abso lu tely nothing to gain from the Shelter Allowance Program.

So well intentioned as it may be, because of this sort of taxation, catch-22, many senior citizens have determined that it is not in their best interests to pick up on the program benefits. lt simply leaves them nowhere. There was, I thought, some excellent examples of the effect of the sort of contradictory effect of the Shelter Allo wance and Property Tax Programs in a Letter to the Editor.

This gentleman by the way was also on the Peter Warren Show last week and was giving even more explicit detail on this and I suppose when the government talks about advertising, they're now going to have a bit of an uphill problem and a bit more difficulty, because they're going to have to work against a bias, which is now growing in the senior citizen community, as a result of information such as this Letter to the Editor, the presentation made on the Warren show and the information, of cour se, di ssemina ted by the Mem ber for St. Matthews.

I think that the only rational solution is truly to reform the necessary programs, in order that they compliment each other and don't contradict each other. lt's a qu estion of just getting various departments' act together and making su re government is administered efficient. I was saying that this gentleman in writing his Letter to the Editor detailed two senior citizens tax returns that he'd assisted to prepare and in one case a person with net income of $5,288, he found that the SAFER allowance resulted in a total gain of $4.26.

You know, I suppose barely worth walking down and doing whatever you have to do to apply and become eligible for the benefit. The other one, Mr. Chairman, he worked out on a net income of $3,604 and after taking Cost of Living Al lowances and the new formula that's been devised for that and we'll talk about that, I suppose, under Financ e Estimates, Mr.

Chairman, I think properly, taking that into consideration and the Property Tax Credit and the 1981 SAFER Allo wance that the individual had received, this person after having the allo wance deducted from the tax credit, gained absolutely nothing from SAFER. lt was a total waste of the person's time. Now, Mr. Chairman, I guess news travels fast.

You know, if you're one of those who were honestly misled into the program, and you fill out your tax return for 19 80, and senior citizens as we all know usually probably do this before most of the other cit izenry because they've usually got a little more time to do that, you tell your friends, you're bound to spread the word that this isn't really worth their effort and they would best not be associated with it. I can appreciate this, because I remember we had the same problem with our Property Tax Relief Program, which was adminis tered by MHR C.

I think it's probably still on the books somewhere, but I don't think anybody's picking up on it any mor e, it's certainly not being publici zed. But, you know, we had the same problem. Once the program was perceived in a negative way, once the word spread among the seniors' community that it was essentially a futile sort of government exercise, there was just simply no draw on the program allotment. Mr.

Chairman, what alarms me is that first of all the government still seems to be very very optimistic about this program's potential and I haven't yet heard them tell us whether they're going to work out the problems with the Tax Credit. I think during the Question Period today we had an indication that they were considering this. Certainly I guess it wasn't explicit to the credit but cer tainly, I guess, general reference was made to these sorts of problems.

I would like to know during these Esti mates whether we can expect in this year any sort of relief that might assist seniors who have been receiving the benefit. I suppose there are 2,300 people who are wondering whether they have wasted their time completely. Can I ask the Government Minister whether or not we can ex pect some sort of relief for these people? MR. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, the member is mixing apples and oranges a little. The comments of the Member for St. Matthews were not directed to the SAFER Program benefits.

SAFER Program benefits, as the member may be aware, were based somewhat on the experience of the BC program in which they had had a prior run at Shelter Allo wances. Our government's intention was to target SAFER benefits at low income people whose rent represented a very high proportion of their costs of living, and in fact we were aware of people in low income areas who were paying as high as 60 percent for their rental. The SAFER program was designed to correct that, or at least to amelior ate that problem.

As well, the SAFER Program would have resulted in most people getting 40 percent beyo nd the Property Tax Credit as additional funds through this whole program, but a number of things happened. Firstly, retroactively the government made a decision to incr ease the Property Tax Credits by $10 0 after the SAFER benefit levels and all of the material had been com puterized and put into the program.

In addition to that, as I mentioned earlier today, the minimum incomes of senior citizens went from something under $4,000 to something over $5,000 in one year, so that the whole net effect of this resulted in people not getting as much benefits as was originally intended within the first year of the plan. We have already moved to rectify that matter by substantially improving SAFER benefits during the second year of the program. As a for instance, I can give you certain examples that indicate what the benefits would be to SAFER recipients under these circumstances.

A senior citizen renter with a monthly income of $345.00 and a rent of $19 5.00 would receive approximately $8 1 .00 a month, which would work out to be substantially more than they would be al lowed under the Property Tax Credit. That was in 19 80. Under the new improved 1981 SAFER Program, a single senior citizen renter with a monthly income of $390.00 and a rent of $230.00 would be receiving approxima tely $1 19 .00 a month. The SAFER benefit 1750 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

Monday, 16 March, 1981 averages for singles were increased from $43.00 a month to $76.00 a month as a result of the enhancement that has taken place in the program. For couples, the average is incr eased from $1 6.00 a month to $63.00 a month. As wel l, I can tell you that looking at what is happening currently, and we are now up to some 2,773 people receiving SAFER benefits. The averages indicate that 87 percent of the singles are getting more than the current maximum Property Tax Credit of $525 and 79 percent of the couples are getting more than the current maximum Property Tax Credit of $525 annually.

So there has been a very substantial improvement. We are working towards that and the effect s have already been seen as a result of the moves that have been taken place, because we became aware of the effects of this as a result of all these other programs coming into force; the doubling, for instance, of the Manitoba Supplement for Pensioners, the incr ease in the OAS, the GIS, and the increase of $10 0 retroactively on the Property Tax Credit, which resulted in some of the confusion and perhaps some of the di sappointment that the member is expressing.

But I can say that at all times, both through the former Mi nister's statements in this House and the folders which were included with all the information that was sent out on SAFER and indeed the SAFER information - in order to receive an application, one has to receive the folder that has the statement in it about the Property Tax Credit being subtracted, so at no time was it a question that the government didn't make that information available, but because of all these increases in income and circums tances, which were all beneficial to the individuals who were receiving these benefits, in the final analysis, fewer people than we had hoped for ended up benefiting by the SAFER Program.

MR. CORRIN: I would li ke to express my commendation for the Mi nister for being so candid, Mr. Chairman, and I suppose one has to confess that was a very honest confrontation of a very difficult issue, and I think he should be commended for making the admissions that he has relative to the deficiencies in the program and for his rather affirmative attitude towards cleaning up the program and making it work better. I think that is really to his credit. In all fairness, I say, Mr. Chairman, it is something that he has inherited; it is not something of his own making. Mr.

Chairman, talking about SAFER, and I appreciate we are only talking about a relatively small constellation of eligible users or people who have applied and made themselves eligible, I am wondering whether the government is monitoring rent levels to ensure that adequate units exist within all rent ranges, or I should say all income ranges. Is there any attempt on the part of the government to assure that there is aff ordable housing available to people at this rather low income level?

I know that the Minister has to confer with his departmental colle agues, so I won't ask too many questions while he is doing so, Mr . Chairman. MR. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, we are monitoring the rents twice annually to coincide with the vacancy surveys that are being done in the city; they are 1751 done in October and April, the monitoring process. The maxi mum benefits allowable are pegged at achieving 10 0 percent of the levels that seniors would have to pay in the inner city and two-thirds of that level in the rest of the city.

So we are always attempting to gear our programs for aff ordabili ty to the rental market that is out there and we are monitoring twice annually to ensure that we do target it at that level. MR. CORRIN: I apologize to the Minister, through y ou, Mr. Chairman, but I suppose I am a bit thick but I didn't quite understand how that worked. Perhaps if the Minister could be a bit more explicit and perhaps use an example or whatever, just to make the situation a bit more obvious. I found the response just a touch abstract; I couldn't relate to it. MR. FILMON: Mr.

Chairman, for ins tance, in the recent October survey, the average rent levels for all inner city units was found to be $229, with bachelor units averaging out at $17 4, one-bedroom units at $222.00. The maximum allowable levels that we have set for benefits under our Sh elter Allo wance Programs was $240 a month for singles, which takes into account those levels. That means that it is beyond the average cost for those types of units that singles would normally occupy, being bachelor and one-bedroom, and $270 for couples, faced with the average level for two-bedroom units of $276.00.

So we are keeping the benefit levels adjusted to reflect the rental costs of those units that are available. This is for the inner city. The maximum claimable rents under the program are set at those levels. MR. CORRIN: I thank the Minister; I understand that, Mr. Chairman. That is clear enough. Since, Mr.

Chairman, we have now moved away from the rent stabil ization approach to the rent control problem and have substituted, as a means of protecting lo w-income tenants, this partic u lar approach, 1 am wondering what the government has done to assure that low-income recipients are not being excessively charged by landlords for units that qual ify their tenant for this sort of assistance. How is the government protecting itself and the tenant from being exploited by usurious landlo rds?

I am just wondering; I am not suggesting that there would be too many landlo rds who would want to exploit the old and the poor, but I think we can all agree that even if there were one, it would be one too many, and we would like to know that the program was doing something to protect the less sophistica ted renter from this sort of uns crupulous predatory landlord. Has the government taken any measures, and I know that this was not the case when the program was introduced and this is why I am asking the question, Mr.

Chairman, we dealt with this last year as well - Has the government taken any measures to protect such tenants from unscrupulously high rent levels? MR. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, we are closely watch ing the rent levels and the changes that are taking place in the rental market. I can report from the information I have received that only 20 percent of the tenants currently on SAFER have received rent incr eases as a result of the decontrol process and

Monday, 16 March, 1981 those increases averaged 10 percent. I am sure that that is very largely due to the fact that we have such a high vacancy rate in Manitoba and in Winnipeg at the present time and that in itself provides a very great degree of protection because the people who are faced with a rental increase that isn't justifiable certainly can find alternative accommodation at a more competitive rate. MR. CORRIN: Mr.

Chairman, generally, in response to that, I can say that I agree that the observation of my friend is correct, and where there is that sort of fluidity represented by a high vacancy rate in an urban market, where there is an opportunity for mobili ty, I think it is sound eco nomic theory to suggest, as he has, that supply and demand are in a sort of equilibrium and there is a built-in market protection. However, Mr. Chairman, there is, I think, a special factor when we talk about shelter allowances for the elderly and that is their general disposition which simply motivates against mobility.

In other words, old people generally are settled in, are stably resident in an apartment and usually don' t want to move. Usually they are comfortable where they are; they have fr iends; it's an old neigh bourhood or community. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, unlike most other renters, seniors, I think, will as a group tend, and I know I am generalizi ng, but will as a group tend to remain in occu panc y even though the percentage of their income that's being put to rent is growing and is somewhat higher than should be the case. I suppose I am bit concerned about that, Mr. Chairman.

I appreciate that, as the Minister has said, it doesn't appear to be a problem, but I still think that it can Qe a problem and certainly will be a problem as the market tightens up, and with the low construction levels, Mr. Chairman, both low MHR C, senior citizen construction levels, and private sector levels, I think it's a reasonable expectation that the market will be tightening over the next four or five years anyway. I think as a matter of policy the government should be working now to close that sort of potential loophole. I'm not satisfied that it's also reflecting the situation of all the senior tenants.

As I said before, if even only one is being exploited, it's one too many, so I think the government should act. The other problem I have, Mr. Chairman, and this is something that I think we should deal with in this program, is the situation in the core area of the city. The member says that there are ample available vacant units. I guess two questions arise. One, what is the nature and quality of those vacant units? And in the core area, Mr.

Chairman, I can tell you that most of them I would describe as derelictions, not simply vacancies, and many of them, I think, are classified that way by city building inspection staff. Mr. Chairman, we have to deal with that and we also have to look at the demolition problem, because you know in the inner city, Mr. Chairman, we lost almost exactly 1, 000 units alone between 19 78 and 19 79, and that's remarkable. You will remember this afternoon that I said that we had roughly in 1980 only 1, 000 single family starts in the whole City of Winnipeg , so we lost as many u