•.I VOL. 2 PRELIMI:>IARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00p.m. - 6:00p.m. THURSDAY, APRIL 17, 1980 NO. 24

April 17, 1980 The House met at 3:00 P .11. ~. Speaker in the Chair. Z.!R. SPEAKER (Simms) : Tape 837 Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS EC - l MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. J. MORGA..'I: Mr. Speaker, a few weeks ago I informed the House I would keep the han. House up to date on the activities of the Fisheries Loan Board and today I wish to inform the House of the recent activities of ~~e board and bring the House ~p to date on the activities and also as a result of questions the last few days by members from the Opposition.

The complete review of the Lean Board is now in the completion stage. It has been ongoing for the past number of months and,as a result of the discussions with the Fishermen's Union in particular, we had a delegate from the union working with the officials of the Department of Fisheries in drafting up the regulations and the eligibility criteria to be used by the board in the future. We have now finalized the negotiations with the chartered banks whereby the chartered banks will be taking over all the loans to fishermen in the Province over $50,000 and up to Sl million in individual loans.

These loans ~ill be guaranteed by the Newfoundland Government, by the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins), and the interest rate charged to fishermen will be the same as the Fisheries Loan Board, which will be, of course, 8 per cent, which means that the government will be subsidizing the interest rate between the difference charged by the chartered banks and the amount now being charged by the Loan Board. These interest payments will be mailed by the Loan Board to the fishermen on the condition, of course, ~~at ~~e interest be paid on their accounts at the various chartered banks.

The Cabinet has approved the condition of the agreement with the chartered banks and the final signing of the agreementswill be wi~~in the next two or three week period. 2~2?.

~ril 17 , 1'!}80 Tape 837 zc- 2 MR. .;; • MORGA.'l : In c.":e l!leantil!'.e, 1·1r. Speake r, the Fish eries Loan Board has been quice active in the pas::. nwr.ber o: weeks processing as many applicat:ions as possible. I ment:ioned on nwne::ous occasions c.'la c. the ::e were a numbe:: of hardship cases ·.-bere t.here were fishe~n who had boats and could r.oc. get engines and wh o had boats and needed additional fishing gear or equipment: on their boac.s, and ·.-e wanted to c;ec as many as possible of t."lese hardship cas es dealt wit. "!. So , ~1r . Speaker, to qo back to l)ecemb er 10t.'1 t. 222~

April 17, 1980 Tape No. 838 SO - 1 ~!R. J. MORGAN : when the Interim Loans Policy programme was announced by the Premier 1 the board had then on hand 817 applications totalling approximately $37 million and the applications were for equipment for engines and for boats. Of course, the conditions of ~~e Interim Loans Programme was ~~at ~~e Board would finance, as announced by the Premier last Fall, a twenty boat programme, twenty new boats ranging from forty-five to sixty-five feet, and of course, these boats,as I mentioned earlier, these contracts awarded and the boats under construction.

So between December lOth, Mr. Speaker, and April 11th - just a few days ago - the Board met on eleven occasions. They had eleven different Board meetings. That is more than the total that was held in the past two years. SOME HCN. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. J. MORGAN: At these eleven meetings they approved 226 loans at a total cost of $10.3 million. In ac~ual fact,the Fisheries Loan Board was committed to only $3 million because the total of Sl0.3 million included, of course, the funds for the down payments by ~~e fishermen, the provincial bounties and the federal government's subsidies. So in addition to this, Mr.

Speaker, the Board also approved,over and above the 226 new loans, roll-over loans, fishermen whose loans change the name of the fishermen will be called roll-over loans. A nu~her of these were approved as well. When the Interim Board approved 226 loans, we thought we were putting a substantial dent in the need by the fishermen throughout the Province for loans to carry out this year's fishery. However, between December lOth and April 11th ~~e Board received 422 additional applications for loans. And presently, Mr.

Speaker, there is a total of a little more than 1,000 applications on file with ~~e Fisheries Loan Board for an approximate value of $45 million. During the next number of weeks these applications will be underqoing a screening process because many of these appli~ations, a little more than l,OOO,we know are 2 2 2 1 ~

>.oril l7. 19a o Tape No. e38 so - 2 ~~. J . ~!ORGAN : not qoin£ to be quali!"ied co obtain a loan. So ~~e sc:eeninq process will be carrie= out over the next number of weeks in the most effid.ent way possible. Of course , caking into consideration our .1ew funds for ~~e estimates this year of approximately sa million ,plus an additional S4 million ca rry over makes a total of Sl2 ~illion of prov in cial money,plus the fact che banks will be taking over the 2 /?t" ·•

April 17, 1980 Tape No. 839 EL - l MR. J. MORGAN: loans over $50,000. We cannot see any problem with regards to financing the Loan Board for 1980. There is no problem in that regard. Many of our loans, Mr. Speaker, require the services of Fisheries Loan Board inspection staff and the Opposition spokesman on fisheries, a few days ago, was totally correct when he pointed out there was a problem in that regard. And the problem is difficult to overcome.

We are now advertising in all the local papers in the Province, through the Public Service Commission 1 for four new inspectors 1 these four new inspectors to carry out inspections on boats, appraisals of engines and equipments and inspections under the small boat bounty program. To date we have a total of six inspectors.

We would like to see it up to a total of twelve and that is the objective and we are advertising now, as I mentioned,for four and we are hoping that we will be successful in recruiting these in- specters because it means, without these persoaael on staff, it means that there will bedel~ys in getting the loans approved for new boats and for used boats where appraisals and inspections are required. so, Mr. Speaker, that is an update for the House of Assembly on the Loan Boards' activities.

I will say, before closing the statement, that the new regulations and the new criteria to be established for the eligibility to obtain loans from the Loan Board, will be approved by the Cabinet, ratified by the F~~~ermen's Union, will be announced by the first week in May, is the objective now and will be then mailed out to every individual fisherman in the Province and a brochure form pointing out el~~y ~ the fishermen who are eligible to obtain loans and thereby the fishermen will be governed accordingly in making the application and getting assistance to prosecute the fishery in our province. Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. 2226

April 17, 1980 Tape No . 839 EL - 2 SOME HON. MEMBE,RS: Hear, hear: MR. SPEAXER (_Siii!IDS) : The hon. the Member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE : Mr. Speaker, that is not an update • That is a downdate as far as the Fishermen's Loan Board is concerned. The fact of the matter is, Sir, that we have had a very serious and E!·ad and shameful situation exist in this Province with respect of the Fisheries Loan Board for over one year now.

And we have the minister today standing in his place in tliis House of Assembly and tellinfJ the people and the fi~hermen of this province ·that the operations of the Fisheries Loan Board, the review is nearinq COJ11Pletio ·n. And the arrangements with the chartered banks are being finalized at tl\e very time wll.ell the pedple , the fishenten of this province are trying to qet i11 their boats and go out and do some fishinq and still do not know whether or not their loa~~s are going to be approved by the Fisheries Loan Board. AN. HON. MEMBER: Heai;, hea .r: MR.. F.

ROwE: Sir, the f'act of the matter is, that this aclministration 222

April 17th., 1980 Tape No. 840 DW - l MR. F. ROWE.: knowingly or unknowingly have encouraged hundreds of new entra~ts into the fisheries in this Province over the last couple of years. And hundreds and thousands ,in fact, of people have made applications to the Fisheries Loan Board in the hope that they would get some assistance for the purpose of going fishing. And the very figures themselves show, Sir, what the problem is.

Approxi- mately 1,000 applications costing approximately $45.9 million when everybody in this House knows full well that there is only a vote in the Estimates of $8 million in the Fisheries Loan fund. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. F. ROWE: carry over there is, Sir. (Inaudible) carry over. I do not care what kind of a The fact of the matter is that we have this ridiculous situation, Sir, where we have hundreds of fishermen in this Province,with the fishing season already started,not knowing what the status of their loans is. Now the only recommendation I can make to the minister and the administration, Mr.

Speaker, is that in the future - and I pass this along as a bit of advice - that any activities relating to the Fisheries Loan Board should be concentrated in the Fall and Winter months so that we do not have a situation where the fishermen are waiting in early Spring, Spring and early Summer 1 for some answer, a simple yes or no with respect to the fisherie~ loans. And I hope that the minister will see to it that the bulk of the Fisheries Loan Board activities takes place during the Fall and Winter mon~hs.

Now, Sir, with respect to the situation where fishermen have already gone ahead and made an arrangement on a private basis with a chartered bank and gone ahead and gotten a private loan from a bank 2223

~?~~1 17th., 1980 Tape No. 840 ow - 2 ~!!.. F. ROWE: at a high interest rate 1 I would lik e to ask the minister if he woul d accept the recommendation that these fisherm en who have arranged for private loans through the chartered banrs can now have their loans rearranqed in such a way that it will come under the Fisheries Loan Board so that they will be paying the 8 per cent instead o! the 12,13,14,15 or 16 per cent,~h~teve~ they arrangement with the .bank. need paying if they made a private Sir, I cannot over emphasize the 222S

April 17, 1980 Tape No. 841 NM - l ::1R. F. ROWE: for getting additional inspectors immediately. That is a very serious problem that the minister has now recognized. We brought it up the other day. The quicker we can get more inspectors to travel around this Province, to inspect boats and appraise the boats and get back to the Fisheries Loan Board, the less number of frustrated fishe~en we will have in this Province.

But, Sir, I can only end by saying that the activities, and I am not attacking the individuals in the Fisheries Loan Board, but the activity of the Fisheries Loan Board or the administration of it, for which the minister has to answer, over the past year or so, Sir, has been one of the most shameful and serious and sad situations that I have ever witnessed in my life. I continually get hundreds of telephone calls 1 as do my colleagues and I am sure people on the other side, from fishermen totally frustrated because they cannot get a simple yes or no. It is a situation which is left hanging in the wind.

And it is a sad situation,as I say, and one that cannot be tolerated any longer and I sincerely hope that we will not see a recurrence of this situation this coming year. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: Well said. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hen. Minister of Fin~•ce. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I wish to announce that the Province ~s presently negotiating a Canadian dollar bond issue in the Canadian market. It is anticipated that the issue will be for $75 million and present indications from the investment community are that the issue is being well received.

The issue is priced at ninety-nine and three-quarters with an interest rate of thirteen and three eigh~~s per cent, to yield thirteen point four three per cent and will mature in 1986. The Province will receive the funds at closing on Thursday, May 15, 1980. The issue has been arranged through our Canadian syndicate which is headed by the Province's lead managers 22.30

.>.pril l7, 1980 Tape No. 841 N~ - 2 OR. J • COLLINS : in the Cana<:Ua."l market, t1cLeod Young \~eir Ltd . , and Domi.nion Securities Ltd. Mr . Speaker, jus~ to perhaps put that in some sort:. of comparison or conte x~, hen . mem,be.rs !Day Scuow chat a f ew days ago there \.<as an Ont:.ario issue for ~300 million when the yield was thirteen point chree cwo per cent so that there is a difference her e of twelve ba sis points and tha t is the narrowest spr ead that:. we have had in ou.r history with Ont:.a.rio. SOME HON . ~~V~ERS : tlea.r , hear! MR . Sl?EAl<ER (Simms) : Any further statements? ·The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communication s. 2~3~

April 17,1980 Tape No. 842 l'.H-1 ~JR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement with respect ~o the report of the Public Accounts Committee pertaining to the operation of government Air Services. I apologize for my voice. I have a bad case of the flu.

I have reviewed the seven recommendations contained in the report of the Public Accounts Committee in this House which pertained to the operation of government Air Services and, without going into minute detail on each of them 1 can assure the House that appropriate action has been taken to tighten up in some case administrative procedures and controls,for some laxity existed, and in other cases controls suggested by the Committee have been implemented to enhance managerial and operational efficiency.

As an example 1 all special helicopter charters under current procedures are arranged through the Air Services Division. Information related to types of helicopter, required number of persons travelling, route to be flown, estimated air time involved and purpose of trip are recorded. All requests for chartered flights are supported by the appropriate documentation signed by an authorized official of the requesting department. Similar documentation is required when government aircraft are utilized for each and every government project or programme.

As one can see 1with information of this nature on file it is now possible without any difficulty to match up invoices submitted by suppliers with correct supporting documents and forward the complete package to the Department of Finance for payment. Incidentially 1 I would like to inform the House that the department has received a cheque in the amount of $29,334 which was recorded as an overpayment to a supplier. I would like further to insure the House that departmental expenditures for all air services are closely monitored with a view to alerting any department in advance of possible exhaustion of funds.

No action to make additional funds available if required is taken without the advice of Treasury Board. I would like to inform the House that because of the nature of government aircraft operations there are many factors which can result in an over expenditure of funds in some departments while an under expenditure may be realized in others. ') , 'J ,., '- L 1.} (.

Tape No . 842 ;;H-2 April 17,1980 :-l.."l. BRETT: All funds initially reque sted are based on long ::ange department:al. estimates for a variet::t of aircraft types . Hedical evacuations are unpredictable as are the cost 1 particularly when long range flights with special aircraft are required for certain emergencies. Th e magnitude of forest fires during any season is also unpredictable, but: aircraft must be used immediately re<Jardless of the cost or level of funds avai .lable at t:he time if t:he forest fire is to be co:1tained. Conversely ,certa in departmental programmes maybe reduced or terminated during the course of the year leaving surplus fun ds . Transfer of funds ~rom one 2233

April 17 , 1980 Ta;Je 84.3 EC - 1 MR . C . BRE TT: department to another Wi -thin the sazne s'UQnead is utilized for ef .ficiency purposes only.

As a last item, I would like to address the recomendation dealing with the variance between the terms of a tender c_all for helicopter services and the contract eventually entered into. rt is aclqWwledged that the tender call for helicopter services called for a term of three years at fi~ed hour _ly rates and with an option for an additional two years at hourly rates to be nego .tia .ted at the end of t:he three year term and the ac.;reement entered into by the department ciil.l.ed for a renegotiation of the price in the seoond and third years • All I can say in this regard is that the p~C\llars furnished to those companies desirous of bidding on the contract stipUlated that escalation in operating costs wi;J..l be s$jec:t to meeting and reso _lution by both parties prior to February lst of each year of the contract.

Costs to be considered will include waqes, salaries, benefits, parts, materials, components, services, insurance, utilities, ground facilities, etc:. on the basis of proven expenditures. In this insta -nce 2 23 !,

April 17, 1980 Tape 844 EC - l MR. C. BRETT: it is regrettable that the two documents were not compatible, but the error, if there truly was an error, was in the tender call and not in the particulars. In the inflationary environment we are experiencing it is unrealistic to seek a firm price over a three year period and no supplier would quote under such conditions. What was done was done in good faith and without favour to any party.

In conclusion, I am pleased to advise ~~e House that the Auditor General has acknowledged publicly that many of his earlier criticisms of the operation of the Air Services have been remedied and the patient is improving most satisfactorily. SOME HON • MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. T. BENNETT: Hear, hear! The han. the member for St. Barbe. Mr. Speaker, I would like to suggest it seems to me that this piece of paper here, while a verdict of guilty, ~~e minister's statement is suggesting that there should have been a verdict of innocence.

The most it is suggesting is that there has been an aspirin tablet applied where there should have been major surgery. To me it is an amusing. It is an amazing piece of paper, this, and this here., Mr. Speaker, is more amazing- not in the least amusing- when you realize the dire straits of this Province. And when we look back over the last number of years, we do not need to go very far to realize what a gravy train this Province has been. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. T. BENNETT: AN HON • MEMBER: MR. T. BENNETT: Hear 1 hear! What a gravy train! (Inaudible) pay by the month. Yes.

Well, waen I have to go out to my district and explain that there is going to be no ramp at Woody Point, when I have to tell the people,'No school, no road, no pavement, no this, no that, all you are going to have is an increase in taxation to support dollars that have gone down the drain in ~~e last few years - SOME HON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. T. BENNETT: - to ~ it is a disgrace. And I am expected 22.35

April 17, 1980 Ta pe 844 EC - 2 MR . 'I'. BENNETT: to qo back to my district - I alll expected to come in h.ere and talk to th.is hen. House of .&,ssembly and look for dOllars to support a Province and a district th.at needs it so badly, Lt reminds me of a fellow who might be in business and the truck drivers are bringing th.e goods to th.e store and he goes in and takes th.e cash up himself and follows alon~. He does not wait to get an invoice 2235

April 17th., 1980 Tape No. 845 DW - 1 MR. T. BENNETT: a receipt or whatever. He just goes and grabs the cash out of the till and takes off 1 and then we expect the business to be successful. to be business. Mr. Speaker, government is supposed When I was aspiring to contest a district and come into this hen. House of Assembly,my friends around me said, 'Look, I am surprised at you. Goinq inta the House of Assembly is like going into aPig's pen.You bill in clean but you do not know if you will come out clea~· Of course that, Mr. Speaker, depends on the individual too 1 I might add.

And this to me is the most disgracing, it is a disgrace, to see what has turned up in the Public Accounts Committee and the Auditor General's report, but I just wish that all of the people in the Province could be supplied with copies of this correspondence. AN HON. MEMBER: What are you talking about? MR. T. BENNETT: If you cannot understand I will read it to you or send you a copy 1or you probably already have a copy, Sir. But anyway, Mr. Speaker, we still have, I understand by the Minister of Finance's (Dr. Collins) statement, a ministerial statem~nt,we still have to go out and look for the borrowing of funds.

Why can we not go and collect more of the funds that is owed to the treasury by people of ten millions? Why can we not go after it? Why have we got to go and burden our people down with more taxation? Why have we got to make them do without the services that we a~ready collected taxes to pay for while we have so much of it ~ithin the covers of these pages. Two hundred- odd per cent overpaid for chartered heli- copter services. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 2237

April 17th., 1980 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): PREMIER PECKFORD: Tape No. 845 ow - 2 Further statements. The hon. the Premier. Mr.

Sp.eaker, I would like to table a little brochure that has been produced by the government out-. lining the major stands that we have·taken on a number of important issues dealing with the Province~ the fishery, offshore oil and gas and hydro~ursuant to the Throne Speech and to the Budget, it was felt because of the large demand that was coming in both to the Premier's office and to many other ministers• offices and even to the Information Services,that rather than to go out to consultants or go throuqh tbe Depart­ ment of Tourism or the Department of Industrial Development, that we would try to do something internally which would cost very little and have it as just a piece of paper,not on any glossy pape~ to outline some of the positions that people are asking us to provide for them.

So 15,000 of these little brochures have been developed internally, ·~eveloping our Nacural Resources ; the Challenge of the Ei g hties and it just goes into the fishery, offshore and hydro. The total 2'J3JJ -

o) April 17, 1980 PREMIER PECKFORD: for 15,000 copies. SOME HON. MEMBERS : PREMIER PECKFORD: Tape No. 846 so - l cost of producing this was $650 Hear, hear. Mother effort to try to do ourselves what we would give other people to do and it would cost a fortune,so I think all hon. members will get copies of this and if they want additional copies they can easily pick it up.

They are available, done on normal paper and it trys to clearly put in just a few words what we have been saying over the last time which there has been a high demand for over the last number of weeks so I want to table a copy of it for all hon. members and I am sure they will take and read carefully and scrutinize and I think it will help the information flow around the Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. SPEAKER: MR. D. JAMIESON: Oh, oh. Are there any further statements? ORAL QUESTIONS The han. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance (Dr. J.

Collins). Given the outline which he included in the budget with regard to the Petrocan/Come By Chance arrangement, would the minister table the actual letters to which he made reference in the Budget Speech so that we can know the details of exactly what the situation is vis-a-vis the Petrocan/Come By Chance proposals? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I think the han. Leader of the Opposition is referring to the letter of intent between Petrocan and the receiver and also the letter of agreement between Petrocan and the Province. The hon.

Leader of the Opposition will remember I did table those the other day actually. Those were the letters,or copies, I should say; I should say copies because we only received a copy of ~~e letter of intent. The letter of intent was 223°

April 17, 1980 Tape ~lo. 846 SD - 2 DR. J. COLLINS: sent by Petrocan to the receiver and we received a signed copy but only a copy. And, of course, the letter of agreement between Petrocail and the Province, we do have that actual letter, that original letter on file and what I tabled was a copy, an absolutely i4entieal copY, of that letter of agreement. MR. D. JAMIESON: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : of the Oppositi-on. MR. D. JAMIESON: SuppleD\entary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. Leader If such is the case, I apologize to the minister.

Perhaps there is so much paper coming across here, but quite honestly none of my colleagues ;beca\lSe I ehecked not more than one half hour or so ago and none of us had seen it so that 2240

April 17 , 1980 Tape No. 847 Nl''l - 1 MR. JANIESON: I do not know whecher it was distr~uted ~~ ~he normal way or perhaps i~ was laid on the Table, bu1: in any event .... e will now ~a.lte a look Eor i~ and ! will find out: '"'here it is . But: is the Hinistel:: of Finance (O r. Coll~

s) telling me tha~ it was done L'l the normal fashion where, as ehe pac;es are doing now, it was passed around? MR. ROBERTS: We are tole it was d.isc:i.buted yesterday but I certainly did not see it. MR. Jk~IESON: I have not seen it and nobody here has . MR. SPEAKER: (Simms ) The hon. :.tinJ.st .er of Finance. OR . J. COLLL~S : Mr . Speaker, I tabled it. Wnether it was passed around is out side my preroga~ive. That would be a matter for the '!'able. P~~IER ?ECKFORD: You did it with the intenl:ion of it being dist:ibu::ed . ~R. J.

COLLISS : A..~d I •ould presume chat if hon . 111emhers wJ.sh to have copies, ~he officer s of the Table ca.'l make these copie s available and if I recall correctly the hon. Leader of the Oppo si~ion (Mr. Jaii\J.e son ) actua lly commen ted when I had 111ade the tabling, when : ~abled ~~ as a brief s~atement. The hon . Leader oi ~he Opposition ac~ually commen~ed at the ~ime that I dJ.d make ~~e tablings. PREMIER PECKFORO: thinc;s - :1R. SPEAKER : SO~£ HON . ~~ERS: MR. SPEAKER: Obviously we are tabling even The hon. member for LaPoile. Oh, oh! Order, please! The hon. m~~er for La?o ile. :~~ .

NEA.~Y: I would like ~o direct a ~estion to the non . the Premier, Sir . :!e has no;:: at.tacked anyboCy today 2241

April 17, 1980 Tape 847 EC - 2 MR. S. NEARY: yet so I thought I would give him an opportunity.

In view of the fact that the cost of living index in Newfoundland has increased higher than any other province in Canada according to these statistics released this morning by Statistics Canada, and the main reason for the cost of living being the increase in housing, cost of food and clothing, which are the basic essentials, would the hon. gentleman indicate to the House what action, if any, his government is going to take or have taken to put a freeze on the cost of one, real estate in this Province, rentals in this Province and the cost of building lots in this Province? MR.

SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I could spend all the rest of the Question Period on answering that question and I am sure it would not be in the best interests of all. Let me just review briefly what the government have been doing on that $COre. I thank the hon. the member for LaPoile for asking the question because obviously, he wanted me to go into great detail on the many positive initiatives the government have been taking. MR. S. NEARY: No. PREMIER PECKFORD: Obviously, the member for LaPoile wanted all that information.

First of all, we had discussed this at length a week or two ago and had communication with all the other Premiers in the Atlantic Provinces to talk to the federal government and to wire the federal government indicating the high interest costs. And contrary to what the member for LaPcile might think, there are Newfoundlanders who want to borrow money. to go into business. There are Newfoundlanders who want to borrow money to build houses. 2242

April 18, 1980 Tape No. 847 NM - 3 PREMIER PECKFORD: There are Newfoundlanders who want to borrow money for many many reasons, to buy building lots and all the rest of it, and therefore it is very, very imporcant we solicit the support of the federal government in initiatives that will help keep the cost of living at somewhere near a reasonable level and hence why we have jointly done it, and all the other provinces have agreed with that kind of an approach. So we are trying to do that.

We are trying to indicate to the federal government that a Throne Speech is just not enough; they must get into a budget situation. In our own budgetary allocations this year, as the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing (Mr. Windsor) has indicated on a number of occasions, and the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) ,we are looking at trying to bring the cost of land down for existing serviced land in the Province to help, and we are going to do that on a selective basis around the Province.

So we are attempting right now, through the budget, to ease the financial burden on individuals and families who want to purchase serviced land to build houses, on real estate in this Province. That is an action that we have already taken. Thirdly, as it relates to mortgages, we have a programme in place to assist people who want to be home owners with mortgages, depending upon their incomes, especially the low and middle income people, up to $20,000 a year annual income. So we have done all of these things in trying to lessen the burden on the people of the Province.

There are other areas as it relates to prices that we have very little control of as a provincial government. We do not have the constitutional and legislative authority needed, so that therefore there is very little we can do except monitor the situation as we are doing now, as the Minister of Consumer Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) ? ? 4 3 '- - .

A.pril 17, 1980 Tape No. 848 NM - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: continues to do from time to time. So a lot of measures have been taken. We are looking at others to take. So we are doing all that is in our constitutional and legal power to ensure that the burden of higher costs are kept to a minimum to the people of this Province. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementary, the han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: I only wish I could debate that answer with the han. gentleman, Sir, because - PREMIER PECKFORD: You would lose. MR.

NEARY: - because han. members know the main reason for the increase in real estate, rents, and building lots and the cost of building homes, especially on the Avalon Peninsula today, the main reason for it, and we have been saying this for some time over here on this side of the House, is the oil boom syndrome that is created by this government, with no boom. People are still forced to live on the same income they had a year or two years ago, very little difference, their incomes have gone up very slightly, it has not kept pace with the cost of living.

What I am asking the hen. gentleman is not to deal with matters that fall under federal jurisdiction,but what is the hen. gentleman doing about ~atters that fall under provincial jurisdiction, namely,putting a freeze on co stop these speculators and these land grabbers from coming in here? Most of them are from outside of Newfoundland, a lot of them are our o~n people, the st. John's vested interests: What is the hen. gentleman doing to stop that sort of thing?

Put a freeze on to stop that sort of thing because that is the thing that is driving up the cost of housing in this Province, especially on the Avalon Peninsula, and the han. gentleman has it all in his own hands, because that falls under provincial jurisdiction. What extraordinary measures is he, or the administration, taking to deal with that sort of situation, an inflationary spiral caused by 2 2 4 L

April 17, 1980 Tape No. 849 IB-1 MR. NE.".RY: an oil boom syndrome that does not exist, a boom that does not exist. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, if the han . member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) will look beyond his nose and look beyond two or three weeks or beyond a year or two years~one of the fundamental and basic reasons why this administration has indicated that it should have jurisdiction and control over offshore resources is because it can control then, if it has that kind of authority, the spinoff and the impact that it will have on a given region of this Province,let alone the whole Province.

And until the member for LaPoile and his p~rty supports this government wholeheartedly and unequivocally on that very basic issue it will always be a question as to whether we really have the legislative or other authority so to control that kind of impact. Let me say that from the start. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! PREMIER PECKFORD: So let the member for LaPoile and let the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jamieson) and let the Liberal Party of Newfoundland and Labrador come clean on the issues so that we then know we have control and we have the support of all members of this House and all Newfoundlanders.

Because if we do not have jurisdiction over the offshore oil and gas you can forget about control; we do not have any power then to control it and it would be controlled from somewhere else which would make,therefore 1 the member for LaPoile's question totally irrelevant to this han. House and he would have to ask his partners in Ottawa or somewhere to do so. As I have already indicated to the han. member for LaPoile 1 we have taken specific measures already that are in our jurisdiction. There is a very, very efficient rent control system in place in St. John's and all over this Province right now. AN HON.

M&'1BER: Rent control? PREMIER PECKFORD: I am talking about rent control right now. Rent control is one of the things that the member for LaPoile mentioned in his original question. We have a rent control system in place and a very efficient one which by the way is under severe attack right now by 2?L.t:: ._ . ,.;

April 17, 1980 Tape No. 849 IB-2 PREMIER PECKFORD: the Home Builders Association, by many of the people in real estate who are saying that it is stimying further construction activity in the rental accommodation field in the St. John's region and thereby causing the prices of rents to go up. So let the han. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) think that one over, that there is a strong lobby right now and a lot of very credible evidence to suggest that the whole question of rent control is at this point in time hindering and inhibiting a more free marketplace which would level off rents in the st.

JOfu<'s-Metropolitan area. Secondly, the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing (Mr. Windsor) just a few weeks ago announced that we have available in the St. John's area right now over 400 serviced lots this year developed by government to help stabalize the serviced lot industry so that it would not go out of whack because of the so called boom which, by the way, we have not created. We have been accused, Mr.

Speaker, over and over again, outside this House especially, not necessarily by members opposition but by people in general that we have been down playing the results that have been coming in from the offshore, that we are not telling the whole story, that we are not giving the people of Newfoundland the whole facts on this situation. And we have deliberately given the factual information so as not to try ~o heat up and inflat an already dangerous situation as it relates to prices and all the rest of it that could ensue because of an oil boom.

We are doing everything in our legislative power and we ask again for the wholehearted and unequivocal support of the member for LaPoile and all members opposite in our desire to see our jurisdictional rights confirmed so that then we can control even more than we are now. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. That was a complete cop-out, Mr. Speaker, if I ever heard one. I started out by saying that the han. gentleman would end up attacking somebody and sure enough I was not wrong, he lived up to his expectation. He is on the attack now. He is paranoid.

The han. gentleman is getting paranoid. But let me ask - ?24R

April 17, 1980 Ta!?e No. 849 IB-3 AN iiON. ~IBE.~: (Inaudible) . ~!R. NEARY: Yes. He started out nice and pleasant this afternoon and now has become paranoid and gone on the attack again. Now lee me ask the hon. gentleman , the bon . . gentleman just: let o.ut a nouthful there, he dragged in th~ offshore and so forth and said that if he could get the support of the Opposition and mumbo- jumbo, but let me ask the bon . gentleman under whose jurisdiction do the onshore things fall, the government of Canada or the provincial government.

HOusing, land, real. estate, rents , whose jurisdicti o n does that fall under? ooes it fall under the Gove.rnment of Canada or unde:z: the pr ovincial gove:z:nment? I believe, Mr . Speaker , and I am not a lawyer or an expert, I believe it :fall s under the bon . gentleman's administration. So h<>w can the bon . gentleman pawn it off by saying, "If '"'e get jurisdiction over the offshore '"e can deal with these matters"? The hon. gentleman bas it in his power now to deal with matters onshore.

And why is not the hon. gentleman and his administration dealing ·.,rith the mat:ters that I raised about. real estate, rents, the cost of building lots and the cost of housing in this ProvL~ce? ~IR . SPEAKER (SIMI-IS) : The ho·n. the Rremier. E' REMIER PECl<FOE!D: Mr . Speaker, obvious~y 224

April 17,1980 Tape No. 850 AH-1 PR&~IER PECKFORD: I should not say any more really and just sit dow~ because anybody who is in earshot of what has happened in the last four or five minutes can now see that the hen. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) really does not understand what goes on in this hen. House. Under our jurisdiction comes serviced lots, number one, and we have said that we have made available and put into the market place over 400 in the St. John's region in an attempt to keep prices down and in an attempt to keep the private sector in line with the lowest pussibl~ cost of serviced lots.

There are over 400 available this year. Number two, we have in place a very efficient rent control system against the inflationary pressures that can be brought to bear because of a so-called oil situation which might come up in the next while. Three, we have said, this is the third one - MR. NEARY: done? PREMIER PECKFORD: You have said it. What have you Thirdly, we are going to put on sale lots around the Province at a reduced rate from their economic cost and subsidize them.

We are going to subsidize serviced lots so that they are cheaper for the person in this Province, for the citizen in this Province who wants to buy a serviced lot. Fourthly, we have in place mortgage programmes announced by the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) in this Budget to help get medium and low income individuals into their own homes. These are four measures we have taken that are now in our jurisdiction and we will continue to take more from time to time as we see that they are necessary.

These are four specific,concrete, physical initiatives taken by this administration to try to do the very thing that the hen. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) just mentioned. MR. NEARY: What are you doing about the land grabbers? SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ 2248

April 17,1980 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: Tape No. 850 AH-2 The han. Leader of the Mr. Speaker, with your indulgence and that of the House I simply wanted to - I will put it by way of a supplementary to the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins),but I want first of all to apologize to him: He was of course correct. He did table it on Monday, the documents to which I referred. I have not seen them. I understand they were not distributed and he is right,as well, that I made some comments on them but my comments related to the meeting that was held in Clarenville but not on the documents themselves.

Could I ask him now by way of a supplementar~ and having assured him that it completely slipped my mind, has he any indication as yet as to when the Petrocan people will be doing the actual, or have they actually started to do the inspection of the facility? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, just on the =irst little point there, I think the officers at the table, they normally do not distribute if the documents are rather bulky like on this last one. I guess that is where the confusion arose.

In regard to what Petrocan are doing, my understanding, I have not in the last week had any direct communication but when I did last have communication with Petrocan my understanding was that they were getting together their experts,and these were being recruited from various parts of Canada and also in the United States,and they would hope to have their group of experts together by about the 18th or 20th of April, around this time,and shortly after that they would hope to put those on site.

Now I did also enquire at the time what would be the possibilities for local added employment and of course the answer I was gi,-en was that much of this first phase would be the very expert, very technical nature and that most of the thrust would necessarily have to be in that area although the expectation was that there would perhaps be a small increase in local employment. Thank you. 2249

April 17,1980 Tape No. 850 Al!-3 ~L~. S?EAKER (Simms): The hon. member =or Terra Nova . MR. LUSH: ~. Speaker, I have a question for the :-tinister of Labour and Manpower (Mr . Dinn). I wonder if the minister could indicate to t:he House if it is so that a large number of fishermen, particularly inshore , fisherm en engaged in the inshore fishery, are not covered under the ~lorkmen ' s Compensadon Act? :ts that: so, t."-.at in 1980, that in this indust:ry ~~t means so much to this ?rovince that a large number of people are engaged in it ~ithout any protection against injury or accident? Is that so and,if it is,wby? ~~- SPEA~~= The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. 225 0

April 17 ,1980 Tape No. 851 EL - 1 MR. J. DINN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member brings up a very good point. The fact of the matter is is that Workers' Compensation is available to all people in the province, The dragger fishermen are covered and are paid for by the companies for which they work, The people on longliners, fishermen on longliners are covered by legislation, if they have three or more people engaged or employed on that boat.

And the problem has been that we have not been able to collect the assessment because we cannot,for one reason or another, cannot identify the employer - MR. llOBERTS : Maybe there is no employer. MR. J. DINN: Maybe there is, absolutely. The hon. member is quite correct, absolutely, that there may be no employer; there might be a joint venture of four people on a boat. The individual fisherman, for example, can be covered if he makes application to the Workers'eompensation Board and pays the assessment.

Now, the fact of the matter is is that we have been having meetings over the past several months, I have personally with the Minister of Fisheries (J. Morgan), with the Newfoundland Fish Trades, with the Newfoundland Fishermen's Food and Allied Workers' Union and we hope to have resolution of the problem within the next two to three weeks. MR. T. LUSH: A supplemen*ary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, (Sillli!\S}: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Terra Nova. MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, the minister can fudge all he likes.

This is a terribly important matter and a terrible situation that people in 1980, fishermen working and not brought under the Workmen's Compensation Act. Now I say to the minister that in British Columbia they have ironed out this situation successfully. They do it in the same way as we work it in this province with respect to UIC. It is the buyers 2251

April 17, 1980 Tape No. 851 EL - 2 MR. T. LUSH: that are considered the employers in this particular situation and the UIC is taken care of, I say why cannot we do the same as that they have done in B.C . and that is to consider the buyers to be the employers and they take care of Workmen's Compensation in the same way as w~_take care of Uic?' MR. DINN: That is not true. MR. LUSH: "P. ~!"A.~~, (!'li!t!

m) ManPOwer. MR. J. DINN: Sure it is. It is so. It is universal. '!'he hon. the :~inister of Labour and Mr. Speaker, as alway~ the hon. the member, the Opposition's shadow for Labour and Manpower,puts forth concisely, basicall~ one of the points that we have been discussing as if he is reading my mail. The fact of the matter is is that that is one of five solutions. There are five solutions that we could have to the problem and it is not as simple as the hon. member wishes to ~ake out.

The fact of the matter is is that there is a cost no matter who pays for the assessment 1 and we would like to get this cost agreed upon by the different parties involved. So we are negotiating first. Now, there comes a time when govern- ment may have to make a decision and I think that time is fast approach- ing. As I said to the hon. member, it is within two to three weeks that government will have to make a decision as to who pays the assess- ment, who is covered and so on. There may even 2252

April 17, 1980 Tape No. 852 EC - 1 MR. J. DINN: have to be, Mr. Speaker, a change to the existing legislation. So the fact of the matter is that we are currently looking at the situation. There are four or five different alternatives or positions that can be taken. We are hoping to iron it out by consultation and by negotiation with the trades and the unions and if we can do it that way, that is fine.

If we cannot do it that way, then within three weeks, I would think, the government will make a definite decision on it and our fishermen in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador will be covered by Workers' Compensation. MR. E. ROBERTS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) A supplementary, the hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. E. ROBERTS : A brief supplementary to the minister growing out of my hon. friend's questions.

I want first of all the minister to tell us, if he could, please, whether the changes necessary to bring all of the fishermen in this Province within the Workers' Compensation system are administrative or legislative? He touched upon that in his answer, Your Honour, but I would like to know whether it could be done by administrative order, whether it is order of the board, Order in Council, or whether it would require legislative changes in the Workers' Compensation Act.

And secondly, could the minister confirm - I think it is what he said, but obviously the issue of timing is of importance because we are on the verge of the opening of the inshore season in those parts of this Province where it is seasonal and that is the largest part of our inshore fishery - could he confirm that within three weeks the government will have come to a decision and taken whatever action is to be taken? Obviously, the urgency is to ensure that we do not lose another fishing season without our fishermen - fisher persons - being covered by the Workers' Compensation Act. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. 2? ... ':!. -::l~

April 17, 1980 Tape 852 EC - 2 MR. J. DINN: The hen. the Opposition House Leader, as always, sees the problems that are involved in most of the negotiations that would involve this kind of thing. Our objective is to make sure that all of our fishermen are covered. That is the objective. MR. E. ROBERTS : Fisher persons . MR. J. DINN: Fisher persons, absolutely.

And the fact of the matter is that since I became Minister of Labour and Manpower and found out that the fishermen in this Province were not covered, became very concerned and attempted to start negotiations and to include an agreement by the fishermen and the trades - I have not been able to do that as yet - what I have come down to is, as I have said before, five options. one of those options would call for legislation. MR. E. ROBERTS: The other four? MR. J. DINN: The other four - or if we can get an agreement, obviously we do not have a problem.

If we can get an agreement that the companies, for example, pay the assessment, it is a matter of the companies paying and I do not think it necessarily means that we have to rush into the House with legislation. MR. E. ROBERTS : Is the minister saying that we need legislation unless we get an agreement from ~~e companies to pay? MR. J. DINN: We may need legislation. I do not ~~ink we will need legislation. I am hoping that we will not need legislation. MR. E. ROBERTS: Yes. l-IR. J. DINN: But ~"le fact of the matter is that we may need a change to the Workers' Compensation Act to force what we want done.

And the object, as I said, is to have the fishermen covered. MR. E. ROBERTS: There are very few voluntary taxes in this world. MR. J. DINN: I would hope that we can get an agreement. I am still optimistic that we can get an agreement and therefore will not need legislation. M."'l.. E. ROBERTS: We will know within ~~ree weeks anyway. 2254

- April 17, 19 90 Tape 852 E:C - 3 MR. J. DINN: Certainly, we will have a C.ecision within three weeks , I would hope. MR. SPEAKER (Si!nms) : The hon. the ~mber for Windsor - Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Labo~ and Manpower (Mr. J. Dinnl and it relates to the Workers' Compensation or peOple covered by the Workers' Compensation Board.

Would the minj,ster confirm to the l!ouse that we . have in this Province indeed people who having received injuries on their jobs and being covered by Workers Compensation, have had to wait and are waiting now for as long as a year and a half in order to get a bed in a hospital in st. John's to have a simple l!IPnogram done, that we are paying compensation to workers in this Pro~nce who, having had an accident a year ago, are still waiting to nave a monogram done because either the doctors that the Workers' Compensation Board retain are too .overloaded or eJ,se the beds are not available in this city? 225:::

April 17th., 1980 Tape No. 853 DW - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. J. DINN: Mr. Speaker, it is very diffi~ult to confirm or deny what the hon. member's question centred around.

But the fact of the matter is that we do have a substantial waiting list for people, claimants for Workers' Compensation,mainly centred around the neurological problems· And the reason for the problem is the fact that we do not have enough neurological or neurosurgery type beds avail- able in the Health Sciences Complex,which is the only hospital in Newfoundland that can handle the types of things that we want done; monograms and certain other things. At the present time we have fifty to fifty-five people on a waiting list. They have been waitin~ some of them,for eight months to a year, maybe even more.

And the fact of the matter is that it is costing the Workers' Compensation Board about $11,000 per week or over a half million dollars a year because of that very problem. And the fact of the matter is now and for the ·past month or more we have been negotiating with the General Hospital Corporation,with the Minister of Health (Mr. House) and we also to have a solution to that very serious problem in the near future. It may cost the Workers' Compensation Board by way of grant or some other way to open up a wing of the Health Sciences Complex, maybe twenty beds or so so that we can cover this situation.

The fact of the matter is it is costing about a half million dollars now.I think if we possibly gave a qrant of a half million - MR. ROBERTS: fifty-five people? Twenty beds to look after How long are they going to stay there? 2256

"" April 17th., 1980 Tape No. 853 DW - 2 MR. J. DINN : No, no. ·The fact of the matter is we have right now fifty to fifty-five people on a waiting list. Last year we qot a guarantee of eiqht beds , The waiting list at that time was somewhere around seventy, the eight beds cut down the waiting list to fiftv or fifty-five ~R. ROBERTS: You miqht two or three more beds. MR. J. OINN: The assessment that we have, the very extensive assessment that we have done indicates that we need about eight to ten beds. MR. ROBERTS: MR. J. OINN: MR. ROBERTS: Two or three more than you have. No, eight to ten more beds.

Why not get twenty-nine more? MR. J. DINN: for the answer. If the hen. member would only wait I can answer his questions back and forth. The fact of the matter is you cannot open an eight bed ward, you know. What is available in the Health Sciences Complex is one area that is a twenty-two bed area that we would like to open for Workers Compensation . MR. ROBERTS : The han. gentleman ~elieves that? MR. J . DINN: I believe all the information that I have I have assessed the information quite extensiuely and happen to know what is required.

Now in order to get the eight guaranteed beds for Workers ' Compensation that is what we need to do is open up that area for Workers ' Compensation. (inaudible) information that I have. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order please! The time for Oral Question Period has expired. It is a pleasure for me to wel­ come to the gallery on behalf of all hon. members the mayor, 2257

April 17, 1980 Tape No. 854 so - 1 MR. SPEA.~R (Simms): Mr. Charles Edwards ,and Town Manager Mr. Wilf Maloney from the great and historic town and great historic district of the same name,which this year is celebrating its 75th anniversary.! refer to the town of Grand Falls. SOME HON. ME..'tBERS: MR. SPEAKER: visit will be productive. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEJUCER: MR. S. NEARY: Hear, hear. And, of course, I do know that their Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for LaPoile. Be fore we get to Orders of the Day, Sir, I want to raise a matter of personal privilege. And I regret very much, Mr.

Speaker, to have to raise this matter. I debated it very seriously in my mind as to whether or not I should raise this matter and I came to the conclusion that I should because I was the subject this morning of a vicious attack on CBC radio by Mr. John Furlong who accused me of- well, he was using the line that, well, maybe because I have been critical of the way this House is reported, not of the way I am reported, the way the House is being reported.

And he used the line that, well, maybe Neary does not deserve to be reported because 1 for examole, yesterday he left an impression that he was discriminating ,against the Japanese, that I was involved in racial discrimination. Now if there is one thing I am not, Mr. Speaker, I am not a religious bigot 1 neither do I discriminate against- I am not a racist, I do not discriminate against anybody, but apparently this gentleman thought because I referred to the Japaneses as 'Japs' that that was a slur, that it was racial discrimination. Well, Mr. Speaker, what about Wewfs'?

I mean, if you use the word 'Newf', is that racial discrimination? If you refer to an American as a 'Yank', is that racial discrimination? If you refer to a Scotchman, is that racial discrimination? MR. JAMIESON : SOME HON. MEMBERS : If you call him a 'Scotch'. Oh, oh! 2258

April 17, 1980 Tape No. 854 SD - 2 MR. S, NEARY: That is why, Mr. Speaker, I hesitated to raise the matter but this goes right out across the Province and I think it is a very serious matter. we, in this House are not allowed to impugn 1110ti ves, we are not allowed to accuse members of having motives behind what they say. And yesterday,just to shorten it up, rather than call them Japanese I said Japs • I make no apology for it. If I was talking to a group of Japanese, I might refer to them as a group of Japs. It is no slur. They have been known as that all down through history.

But this goes out across the whole Province, Mr. Speaker, and people may misinterrupt it. I mean, what does the CBC do? Do they have hired guns1 Do they have people up there who go out of their way to do a hatched job on members of this House? is that what they are hired for? or are they hired to look at things subjectively and objectively in this House? AN HON. MEMBER: Your honeymoon is over. MR. S. NEARY: Well,maybe it is. I could not care less myself as long as I do my job in this House. That is all I care. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. S.

NEARY: And whether they care to report it, or not or whether the press cares to do their job is entirely up to themselves. But I think this sort of thing has to stop. Mr. Speaker, the CBC as far as I can see have hired guns. If they do not like you, the CBC will put them on L~e payroll as freelance reporters, freelance writers and God help you, look out 1 because they will get you one way or another. And I think that message should go out loud and clear across this Province, Sir.

It is not good enough, I am not a racist in any way, shape or form, I like the Japs as much as I like the coloured people, I like the coloured people as much as I like the white people. I love the human race . SOME B:ON. MEMBEP-S : MR. S • NE.".RY : You love everybody I just love the human race, I love 2 rq '-J~

April 17 , l9SO Tape No. 854 SO - 3 MR. S. NEARY: !:!:em, I love everybody. And how about the hon. gentleman in his buttoned down, narrow-minded - I even love the mamber for Humber East, the Minister of Education (Ms. L. Ve:rqe). AN RON. !'IEMBE~: Ml~. S. l'<EAAY: 501-'.E HON. MEMBEM : MR . S. NEAAY: In a platonic sense. In a platonic sense, of course. Oh , ohl How, Mr. Speaker, how could anybody unless they are narrow-minded and have a buttoned down mind and are out to get somebody, how could they come to the conclusion in the remarks that I made yesterday when I was referring to the price of squid and the market for squid in Japan this year 226 0

April 17, 1980 Tape No. 855 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: when I said the Japs will not buy squid at the same price they did last year, how could anybody interpret that as meaning that I was a racist, that I believed in racial discrimination? And I would ask Your Honour to look at this case very seriously because I think I have established a prima facie case that my privileges in this House have been breached and Your Honour may wish to take it for a day or two under advisement. But I believe it is time that we put an end to this sort of reporting from this House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Hear, hear! To the point of privilege 1 the han. the That is not a point of privilege, Your Honour. First of all is not bound to be editing remarks that are made outside this House,but it is matters that pertain in this House that rise matters of privilege in most instances. And certainly reports made by newspapers, or reports made by the media are not within Your Honour's purview in instances such as this.

I would suggest to the hon. member,if he wishes to be taken seriously outside of this Chamber he might act ih a serious vein inside it and then maybe that would be the remedy for his grievances. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of privilege, the han. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: If I may say a word, prompted by the 1 I thought unnecessary and quite unpleasant concluding remarks of the gentleman from St. John's East (Mr.

Marshall), perhaps that is his wont, so I will not get into what his wont is right now, but I think that perhaps, Your Honour, there may very well be a matter of privilege involved here. My learned friend from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall), unlike my unlearned friend from the district of Stepenville (Mr. Stagg) - MR. STAGG: Now we are getting into it. 2261

April 17, 1980 Tape No. 855 NM- 2 l1R. ROBERTS: Your Honour, if the gentleman from Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) - MR. STAGG: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order! MR. ROBERTS: If the gentleman from Stephenville would remember the advice once given to me by a constituent of mine, since gone to that great holding place in the sky, then living in the community of Northeast Crouse, he would be further ahead 1 because I was told~ and I have tried to heed it; the han. gentleman would be well advised to heed it - MR. STAGG: Do not get nasty. MR.

ROBERTS: that a politician is like a fish in that he only gets in trouble when his mouth is open. And I would say to the gentleman from Stephenville that he ought to sit and listen and try to observe and then if he wants to speak let him. MR. STAGG: MR. ROBERTS: That philosphy cannot deal with you. Mr. Speaker, the point is this, that I think it is worth looking at and Your Honour may very well wish to consider it and rule upon it. MR. STAGG: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Your Honour, I am quite prepared to engage in a duel of wits with the gentleman from Stephenville (Mr.

Stagg), even though he comes half armed to that duel. But it is a distraction, it is an interruption and I would suggest, Sir, he is doing it either deliberately - MR. STAGG: That is right. MR. ROBERTS: - or doing it so negligently as to be deliberate in his negligence, and I would simply ask that either I be allowed to engage in it and demolish him as only he ought to be demolis hed, or whether I , as I would prefer . be allowed to finish addressing what is a serious comment on what I regard as a serious point. 2262

-~ April 17, 1980 Tape No. SSS NM - 3 MR. SPE!\.KER: (l;l:i.Jru!ls) Order, please! The hon. m~r has the right eo be heard in silence and he has made that request. Belle Isle. MR . ROBERTS : Order, please! Tne hen. D,tember for the Stxait of The point is ehis, and i~ is a brief point and 1 if I am allowed by ~,ose L~ ~he House to proceed as Your Honour has directed ,! shall make it , it is whether we in this House have a right to be reported accurately, and I suggest that may very well be a possible question of privilege , '!hat is not eo talk about cornme .nt.

If somebody wants to comment upon what we do in this House , that of course is a dif=erent subject altogether. Whether or not •..-e have a right to be reported accurately is a matter •.Jhich is a. question of privilege , I would suggest, and Your Honour could probably go back as. far as t..l-Je original Hansard, where ~!r.

Luke Hansard , after whom liansard is named, was orig-inally qiven ehe right to report the proceedings of the House by a resolution of the H.ouse of Commons in England some cwo or ehree hundred years ago. ~ow I am not proposi;lg to cake furt.her ~~e to address the point,but I would suggest quite simply there is a ,point cha t Your Honour mighr. very •.rell ".Jish co consider . And as I unders"t:ood the point raised by my friend from LaPoile districr. (~.

Neary), he is not ob j ec~ing to comment made upon what he did , I mean,we are all subject to =air comment and if we do nor. think c~e comment is fair ehere are remedies and we can follow them. T.hat is not his objection, his obJection is wher.her we have a righ t as members ~o ~e repo~ed accurace~y. I suggesr. we do . We have a r~ghc co be reporr.ed 2263

April 17, 1980 Tape No. 856 EL - l MR. E. ROBERTS: accurately and that is a question of privelege of the House. SOME ll:ON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the member for Stephenville to the point of privilege. MR. F. STAGG: Yes, I would like to clarify my intervention into this exchange with my colleague across the way. In addressing himself to the remarks made by the hon. Government House Leader, he refers to the House Leader as 1a learned gentleman! I was sitting back here waiting to hear the debate and he said, "Unlike my friend from Stephenville (Mr. F.

Stagg) who is an unlearned gentleman, Well, I am sitting back there and minding my own business. Now in the business of the practice of the legal profession, Mr. Speaker, we refer to one another as 'my learned friend'. So he indicates that the member for St. John's East (W. Marshall) is a learned gentleman

whereas I am an un-learned gentleman. I take that as a crack at my professional competence. As my learned friend across the way is so willing to do, there are no other learned gentleman around my hon. friend, in his estimation. So, I took a few flicks at him, and I will continue to intervene in that manner,and I would suggest that my learned friend across the way, who only recently has begun to practice law, might be a little more- oh, he might be MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : I think we are beginning to drift away a little bit from the original point of priveleqe. MR. F.

STAGG: Yes, well he might be a little more judicious in his statements, otherwise he is going to get flicked every day, MR. E. ROBERTS : I meant no disrespect to the learned gentleman from Stephenville (F. Stagg). I meant no disrespect to him and 2 2 6 1;

April 17, 1980 Tape No. 856 EL - 2 MR. E. ROBERTS: if he feels I should apologize, I have no hesitation apologizing to him. He is officially a learned gentleman and I have no hesitation at all so acknowledging him here or in any other place. But I would simply say, and this is the old tit for tat theory, and he tends to be the tit and I tend to be the tat in this, but he first interjected, Sir, and drew my attention to him. Otherwise, Sir, I do not notice the hon. gentleman from Stephen­ ville when I am addressing a serious point and so I do not respond to him. But, Sir, he flicks at me, he gets flicked back.

He is usually the one who gets flucked as a result of it. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please. With respect to the point of privilege raised by the hon. member for LaPoile -I believe the comments of the last two members have been resolved -with respect to the question of privilege raised by the hen. member fer LaPoile, of course it is clear in Beauchesne that the Speaker's responsibility is not to determine whether or not there has been a breach of privilege but whether or net there is a prima facie case. In this particular matter, I think it is fair to say the hen.

Member fer LaPcile has taken the opportunity to perhaps clarify the comments that were attributed to him outside of this House and therefore I would have to rule there is no prima facie case in this particular matter. 226S

April 17, 1980 Tape No. 856 EL - 3 ORDERS OF THE DAY On motion that the House resolve it­ self into Cimmittee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. Ma.CHAIRMAN (Butt) : MR. W. MARSHALL: MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : MR. W. MARSHALL: COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY Order, please. Mr. Chairman. The hon. the President of the Council. I just wondered from the point of information, Mr. Chairman, it might be of benefit to the Committee if we were informed now as to the time • MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : ,sometime during the afternoon, if not right The time, yes. At the present time we have eleven hours and ten minutes left, MR. E.

ROBERrS: Including the nine hours for concurrence debates? MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : Yes. MR. E. ROBERTS : No they have eleven hours left exclusive of the nine hours concurrence debates. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : Eleven hours and ten minutes exclusive. MR. E. ROBERTS : has set us straight. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : Sub-head 302-01 MR. S. NEARY: I thank the ehairman who once again Head 111 - the Executive Council. No, Mr. Chairman, I think we could probably spend eleven hours on the Premier's Office. Now, Mr.

Chairman, the first thing I want to deal with was the response and the reaction to questions that I put to the hon. 2266

April 17,1980 Tape No. 857 AH-1 MR. NEARY: the Premier the other day in connection with a fund callec Confederation Trust Fund. The han. gentleman, I believe, acknowledged that he knows of such a fund but he pointed a finger across at the former Leader of the Opposition,who is now the Opposition House Leader 1and said well, he indicated,that it is no different than the Liberal fund; that is what the han. gentleman said.

Well 1if the han. gentleman will recall the first question, the first day that I raised this matter I asked the Premier to indicate whether this was a PC campaign fund, if Confederation Trust was a fund to take care of PC party matters,and the Premier would not tell me if it was a PC campaign fund or not but yet he pointed a finger at the Opposition House Leader and said,' It is the same as the Liberals have.' Well 1 I contend that it is not the same.

If he is using the example of the former Leader of the Opposition ~ho is now Opposition House Leader 1 then I would say that when that gentleman, my colleague, became Leader of the Opposition that he acknowledged any debts or any surplus that may have existed in the Liberal party up to that time,even thought those debts were incurred by another leader. He acknowledged them. And his successor, who happens to be my colleague here to my right,also acknowledged them and the present Leader of the Opposition acknowledged them.

They may not agree with it, they may not approve of the way that the money was collected or the way it was paid out,but they acknowledged it. But in this case the Premier does not acknowledge the fund; in other words 1does not acknowledge that the PC party owes the money to the Bank of Nova Scotia, so therefore I can only assume that it was a personal matter between the bank and the former Premier. And if it was 1 then it raiseg more questions. Was it legal for the Premier of this Province to have a slush fund while he was occupying the highest position in this land? Was i~Mr. Chairman?

And if it was legal for him to have a slush fund, then who did he pay the money out to and who were the donors of this fund? I believe it is a pretty serious matter, Mr. Chairman, a pretty serious matter,and the Premier should deal with it head-on rather than treat it as flippant as he has treated it so far and 2267

April 17,1980 Tape No. 857 AH-2 MR. NEARY: more or less just brushed it aside. It does involve the Premier's office, the highest position in this land1 and cannot be just brushed aside. And it is not the same. If the hen. gentleman would just get up and tell me, tell the House and the people of this Province that it was a party campaign fund, that it was to look after expenses of the PC party, I would drop it and forget it. But the hen. gentleman is not prepared to do that and the hen. gentleman says my problem is with the former Premier. My problem is not with the former Premier.

My problem here is with the Minister of Justice C'!r. Ottenheimer) and the present Premier who refuses to deal with this matter. AN HON. MEMBER: He has no courage. MR. NEARY: No courage. No. No courage. He tells us he is going to be open and honest and operate a government of integrity 1 but then he picks the issues and picks the matters that he wants to be honest on. MR. FLIGHT: His way. MR. NEARY: He wants to do it his own way. Well 1 that matter, as I said the other day, is not going to go away, it is a matter that has to be dealt with. And the other matter that has to be dealt with, Mr.

Chairman, by the han. the Premier is the report of the p,,Wlic Accounts Committee. The word has not yet filtered out, Mr. Chairman, to the people of this Province that on the Public Accounts Committee are seven members of the this House, seven- four from the government side, three from the Opposition side-and they unanimously came to the conclusion, this '"hole seven of them, voted that the Minister of Fisheries (~1r .Morgan) when he was Minister of Transportation broke the laws of this land, 226B

April 17, 1980 Tape 858 EC - l MR. S. NEARY: violated the Public Tendering Act. Seven members of this House, four of whom are his own colleagues, said that he knowingly broke the law, and that passed by this House. And the Premier had the gall and the face to get up in this House and say it was an honest - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. S, NEARY: AN HON. MEl-mER: An honest opinion. an honest difference of opinion. Is that not terrible? MR. S. NEARY: That is what the Premier said. And yet, seven members said,'Guilty'. The Premier gets up and says, 'I am not going to do anything about the Minister of Fisheries lMr. J.

Morgan) when he was minister of Transportation because it is an honest difference of opinion.• Yet seven of his colleagues, three on this side, four on that side, said he was guilty, that he knowingly broke the law of this land. Now, Mr. Chairman, that cannot be allowed to stand on the public record of t..~is Province . The Premier showed his lack of courage. He had the opportunity to prove to the people of this Province that he was a ~ of courage, that he was indeed going to run an administration that was honest and open and an administration of integrity, but he has blown it. And, Mr.

Chairman, the next thing he will do is he will come in with a motion that the Public Accounts Committee be disbanded. That will be next. Who does he think he is, Sir, to actually say to four of his own members, 'Sorry, boys, you were wrong. 1 am judge and jury. I, the Premier of this Province, I am the judge and jury. You are all wrong. He was not guilty of that, he did not break the law. It was just an honest difference of opinion.' That statement was made following the statement made by the minister who said that the Public Accounts Committee had launched a vicious personal attack on him.

Seven members of t..,is House, four on that side and three on t..~is side had launched a vicious personal attack on the minister, and the Premier upheld tha t an d condones it. I did not hear him reprimand the minister and say, 'Do not say that again because that Committee was set up by this House, by th e Speaker. The Speaker of this House made the appointments. ' AN HON. MEMBER: I bet it is going to ce cancelled. 2269

April 17, 1980 MR. S. NEARY: in my life. Tape 858 EC - 2 Mr. Chairman, I never heard the like The hon. gentleman is looking over now. He thinks because there are only a few members in the House, there are only a few on both sides, that nobody is listening, nobody is paying attention. Well, as I said a few moments ago, I could not care less who is paying attention. As long as I am doing my job I have a clear conscience. If the press do not want to report it they do not have t~ I could not care less, but I am still going to do my job in this House.

And my job is to point out the weakness in the Premier's Ministerial Statement . There has finally been a chink in his armour and public opinion is against him on this. What a letdown for the people of this Province who thought the hon. gentleman was sincere when he said he was going to be honest and open! What a letdown for the people of ~~is Province! What a letdown for members of this House, especially his own members who were on that Public Accounts Committee, who condemned the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. J. Morgan) for breaking the law! And he refused to deal with it, Mr. Chairman.

He ignored the attack on the Public Accounts Committee made by one of his ministers chose to ignore it. Well, maybe the press will ignore it, maybe the people will not rise up in arms, will not rebel. Maybe the hon. gentleman thinks he is riding high, wide and handsome and that he is so popular in the Province ~~at he can ride this out. Maybe ~'lat is so. AN HON. MEMBER: That is why he is making all the statements. MR. S. NEARY: That is why he came in yesterday, in my opinion, with that camouflage, wi~'l that infamous statement that he made yesterday on the eve of a referendum practically, in Quebec.

The government have stalled and delayed and wasted seven years. They could have waited 2270

April 17th., 1980 Tape No. 859 ow - 1 MR. S. NEARY: another thirty-five days. But the hon. gentleman yesterday did one of the most infamous things I think that I have ever seen in my life. You would not know but he deliberately went out to wreck Confederation. MR. L. THOMS: He is an anti-Confederate. MR. S. NEARY: I do not know if the hon. gentleman is an anti-Confederate or a Separatist but certainly he is surrounded by a group of advisors who can be considered nothing but separatists. seen in my life.

That was the most infamous thing I have ever Here you have a very delicate and sensitive situation going on in the Province of Quebec, only the day before Rene Levesque had announced in the Legislature of Quebec a referendum. You vote yes or no, if you want sovereignity association, in other words, if you want to set up your own little nation within Confederation. And the Government of Canada trying to deal with that - and Mr. Trudeaw the day before made one of the most magnificient speechesni caught the tail end of it when I went home - that I have ever heard in my life. MR. W. MARSHALL: A point of order, ~r.

Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN A point of order, the hon. Govern- ment House Leader . MR. W. MARSHALL : I will draw to attention that each member in committee gets ten consecutive minutes and I am quite sure from looking at the clock that the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has already exceeded that. MR. CHAIRMAN: To the point of order , the hon. member for LaPoile started at 4:13 p.m. and it is now 4:23 p. m . AN HON. MEMBER: Time is up. MR. S. NEARY: Thank you, Your Honour. I have to presume I bring my remarks at a close at this point in time. 227

April 17th., 1980 Tape No. 859 DW - 2 MR. S.

NEARY: I was saying that I had caught the tail end of Prime Minister Trudeau's speech which was in my opinion 1 what I heard of it 1 was one of the most magnificient speeches I have ever heard in my life.And then the next day the Premier of this Province comes in and does the most infamous thing I have ever heard.He is going to go to Ottawa 'and ask them to force the Government of Quebec to allow us to put a transmission line across the Province of Quebec, am not objecting to the~rinciple of it;I am objecting to the timing of it.It was the most dastardly and infamous thing that I have ever seen happen, could have waited until the refer- endum was over or there could have been quiet negotiations going on behind the scenes.

It is right the opposite; the hon. gentleman went out of his way to deliberately destroy Canada, to throw an obstruction in the way of getting a no vote on that referendum. My time up, Your Honour? MR. CHAIRMAN. (Baird): Your time is up. MR. S. NEARY: Well, I will take my seat and I hope I will have an opportunity to get back at it again. I will be curious to hear what the hon. gentleman has to say . MR. CHAIRMAN: !'IR . G. WARREN: The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Premier a question on 302-02 pretaining to travelling.

I notice last year $35,000, this year it is up to $60,000. Could the Premier enlighten us why the increase of $25.000 and taking into consideration that he has cut out one or two of his Premier's offices within the Province? Could he en­ lighten us why the increase of $25,000? MR. F. ROWE: is going to reply . MR. CHAIRMAN: de Verde . I do not know if the Premier The han. member for Trinity - Bay 2272

April 17th., 1980 Tape ~o. 859 ow - 3 MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, I think it is time that the Premier of this Province leveled with this committee and through this committee info~ed the people of this Province as to where exactly his administration stands with respect to fisheries policies in this Province. Now, Sir, approximately a year ago hon. members will remember that a great strategy for the eighties for the fisheries was announced. The cost of the 227 3

April 17, 1980 Tape No. 860 NM - l MR. F. ROWE: studies to make that proposal amounted to ~661,000- ~661,000 of the people's money, to present a programme called Strategies fgr the Pisheries to 1985 1I believe. And the approximate cost of that strategy was to be $500 million. So if you wanted to average it out it would cost approximately $100 million per year.

Fifty per cent of the money to come from government, namely the provincial government and presumably the federal government, and fifty per cent of the money, the other $250 million 1to come from the private sector, so said the then Minister of Fisheries, Mr. Walter Carter. Now, Sir, part of the election campaign was fought on that particular fisheries strategy, or fisheries policy. Last year there was an appropriation or an estimate of $l00,000 1for example,for the Fisheries Development Corporation of Newfoundland, ~100,000.

We were informed over a year ago, at the time the proposal was presented to the public of this Province, that site preparation was ongoing and land acquisition was taking place in Harbour Grace for the purpose of establishing the primary landing and distribution port, so called "superport" in Harbour Grace. And the total cost of that primary landing and distribution port was to be in the order of $61 million. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I have great difficulty in understanding what is going on with respect to the fisheries policy in this Province as do five hundred-and-some-odd other Newfoundlanders, because we were told that land acquisition was ongoing, site preparation was ongoing, yet we see that in the revised estimates not one cent was spent for the primary landing and distribution port in Harbour Grace. MR. MARSHALL: (Inaudible). MR. F. ROWE: That is in the Fisheries estimates. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, 11r. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird) : A point of order, the hon. House Leader. 2274

April 17, 1980 Tape No. 860 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: Nobody wishes to take away from the latitude of depate within the assigned topics and the assigned way the business of the House is laid down, but we are now discussing Head III, under the Executive Council estimates. Questions could be posed with respect to these matters and the hon. gentleman by his own admission is now over into the Fisheries estimates themselves. Now the Fisheries estimates have been referred to a committee and the han. gentleman has ample opportunity to go and make his point there, and I know his points would be very welcomed. But I think, Mr.

Chairman, he is totally out of order, totally irrelevant, and he is taking up the time of the Committee of the Whole on a matter which the House has assigned for another slot and another time. MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIR."1AN (Baird) : LaPoile. MR. NEARY: To that point of order, Mr. Chairman. A point of order, the hon. member for Mr. Chairman, there is no point of order. We are doing the Premier's salary, the Premier's Office~ the Premier is the gentleman who appoints all these ministers, in this particular case the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) is a gentleman we have no confidence in at the moment.

He has been ruled as a law breaker by the Public Accounts Committee. The only one that we can direct our questions to as far as the fisheries are concerned, and a man, by the way,who does not hesitate to outline fishery policy,is the han. the Premier. He speaks for all the departments of government. My han. colleague is completely in order. What is worrying the han. gentleman is that we are taking a little too much time and giving the Premier a little too much of a roasting. And that is what the hon. gentleman is worried about. But I would submit my hon. friend is completely in order. MR. F. ROWE: Mr.

Chairman, if I could just reply to the point of order. The Premier today, Sir, made a Ministerial Statement 2275

April 17,1980 Tape No. 861 AH-1 MR . F.ROWE: in which he talks about developing our natural resources. The Premier of this Province makes a Ministerial Statement. The first topic in that brochure is the fisheries. I would assume that most of the major policy decisions are made in consultation with the Premier, and we are on the Premier's office, the most important office in the Province. So you can talk about anything, about any department, any division of the department as long as it relates to governmental policy as determined by the Premier. MR. MARSHALL: Just further on in the comments, Mr.

Chairman, made by the hon. gentleman opposite. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Baird): The hon. House Leader. MR. MARSHALL: On the point of order. I do not want to belabour the fact but would just like to point out that certainly we are on the Premier's office and the purpose of examining estimates is so that the expenditures that the government proposes to make can be scrutinized by this Committee. Now 1 the han. gentleman is quite wrong when he says that this is a freewheeling debate and you can debate about anything.

The han. gentleman was debating at the time and was bringing in the fisheries and was actually referring to the fisheries estimates. Now there is a time and place to debate the fisheries estimates. In other words he should stand in line un~il those particular estimates are being considered. Right now I think it is in the public interest to consider the Premier's office and the expenditures contemplated for the Premier's office.

If the hon. gentleman had freewheeling debate in the Budget debate,certainly he would have freewheeling to make his comments on the salary of the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan) when that comes up in Committee, but to •JO off in another area just really throws chaos to the order of this House. MR NEARY: Mr. Chairman, that is too foolish to talk about. The han. Premier is the pacemaker, the policy maker of this administration, the gentleman who appoints Cabinet ministers.

And my hon. colleague is completely within his right to talk about anything under the sun when it comes to the Premier's office and the Premier's salary. 2276

April 17,1980 Tape :-lo. 861 i\H -2 !1R. :-lEARY : The Premier a =ew ooments ago refused to answer some questions that I put to him, some very, very serious questions about policy and about things that have happened in the past in the Premier's office. I would say my hon . friend is completely in order and I \oo-ould ask for Your Honour to ask the hon . Gove..>-nment House Leader to rescrain himself and not be interrupting my hon. friend and wasting the time of the Committee with foolis h and specious points of order . ~tR . CHAIRH AN( Saird): To the point of order.

As the subject is far- ranging I •.rould rule there is no point of order. The hon. member for Trinity-aay De Verde. :1R • F • ROii/E: Now, Mr . Speaker, the Premier in his brochure and in the Throne Speech and in practically every speech he tl'.a.l<es, the leading statuem: is chat fisheries has been !:he mainstay of the economy of !'lewfoundland and Labrador for centuries and then he goes 2277

April 17, 1980 Tape 862 EC - l MR. F. ROWE: on ~rc"!! t.."lere. r<ow, I am simply asking t..~e Premier, as the head statesman in this Province, to indicate to the people of this Province through this Coll\il\i ttee 1 Mr. Chairman, what is the policy of the government as it relates to the announced policy documented in the strategies for ~1e fisheries until 1985.

And I was using as an example t..~at site preparation and land acquisition were supposed to have taken place, yet no money was spent in the rev1sed estimates - that is the example I was using - which indicates that nothing is going on with respect to the primary landing and distribution port in Harbour Grace, which is 6l/500ths of the total expenditure that was going to be used for t..~e fishery strategies to 1985. Now, I would like to ask the Premier just to answer this basic, fundamental question: Has the administration changed its policy entirely?

Has the administration rejected outright the policy and strategies for the fisheries that were announced over a year ago - for the want of a better expression, the Walter Carter fisheries policy - has that been rejected? Has the proposal that was announced over in the Holiday Inn with T.V. cameras present, with 100 fishermen brought in - is that strategy that was announced with great fanfare still a part of the present administration's policy for the fishery, or has it been modified, or had it been rejected?

Because it was stated in t..~e Throne Speech that a -~ite Paper is to be presented later on with regard to fisheries strategy in this Province. ~ow, Mr. Chairman, if I can just finish by saving, if the fisheries are as important as the Premier and his other ministers indicate, I think he owes it to t..~e people of this Province to indicate through this Committee what exactly the policy of the government is wit.~ respect to the fisheries, particularly as it relates to t..~e original fisheries strategies until 1985.

The hen. the Premier, I ass~~e, must be listening with one ear and talking with his mouth, but I would hope that he is listening because it is a very significant question. It was a $500 million proposal put to the people of Newfoundland. Now, is it rejected or is it not rejected? 227P

April 17 1 1980 'l'ape 862 EC - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS : oh, oh! MR. S • NEARY : Mr. Olairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird) : DQe!; the hon. 1;:he PreJilier wish to speak? MR. 5. N;EARY 1 Hold on, now 1 Your Honour 1 I am on my feet. I did not want the hon. gentle= to spe:ak. PREMIER PECKFORD ·: Y,es, Mr. Chairman, to respOnd to a number of questions 1;:hat have :been put to me :by the hen. the member for Eagle River (Mr. E. Hiscoek) ·1 the hen. the membe _r for ~oile (Mr. s. Neary), the hon. the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. F. Rowel. First of all 1 r think I should deal - MR . S.

NEARY: I am prepared to allow the gentleman to qo ahead and speak 1 but I woulc like to have a ruling from Your Honour. In this House 1 acoordi.nq to the Standing Rules of this House 1 you can only be recognized when you are standing in your place . 2279

-· April 17, 1980 Tape No. 863 SD - 1 MR. S • NEARY : Th~ hen. gentleman was not standing, I was standing 1 and the hen. gentleman invited the Premier to speak. Now, are we having new rules in the House? I would like for Your Honour to give us a ruling on that. Who get recognized a man sitting down? a man on his feet or PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. CHAIRMAN: (Baird) Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: To that point of order, Mr. Chairman.

To the point of order, the hen. the I would just like to say that I thought that the Opposition had their act in order over there so that they were doing things in concert and it was a direct question asked me and I was in another hen. member's seat and as the member for LaPoile (Mr. S. Neary) points out, I can not speak from somebody else's seat, so I scurried back to my own seat and I had to sit down because two members can not stand at the same time.because they have not got their act together over there to know that.I just assumed that the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. F.

Rowe) wanted me to answer now because two other people had come before him and it seemed to indicate that. He said, "I hope he is listening and I want ~im to answer." And you sat down and I just assumed that the han. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde in concert with his members had organized it so that I would then respond at that point in time. So I am sorry if there is some confusion on the other side of the House, I do not think there is any confusion here. Everybody had themselves organized for me to get up now and respond to those three members. MR. CHAIRMAN: On the point of order.

I understand that there was a question asked by the member. The han. the Premier was attempting to answer it and was going back to his seat at the same time the member for LaPoile rose. It was the initiative of the Chair to recognize who else was up1 the han. the Premier. 2280

April 17, 1980 Tape No. 863 MB - 2 PREMIER PECKFO!ID: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, very much. I appreciate your ruling. I w«nted to answer the hen. member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock), . I wanted to answer the question, the only really totally re- levant question out of the past three speakers has been the hen. the member for Eagle River. I want to commend the hon. melllber for E•gle River for keeping relevant and I think it goes to show just where relevance is on the oppcisite side of the House. MR. NEARY: You mean Torngat Mountains. PREMIER PECKFORb: Torngat Mountains.

Yes, the Hen. member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren. MR. NEARY: Point of Order. MR. CP.AIRMAN: (Baird) Point of Order. The hen. member for La Poile (Mr. Neary). MR. S. NEARY: Well, the hen. member just corrected himself. I wanted to just point out to the hen. gentleman that the member for Eagle River, although he may speak in this debate, has not spoken yet. The member from Torngat Mountains spoke. MR. CHAIRMAN: To the Point of Order 1 a point of clarification. PREMIER PECKFORD: I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman, yes, to that point of order I was referring to the hen. member for Torngat Mountains.

If it comes down to a question of the geography of Labrador, someday I would only be too happy to participate in any kind of debate on that with the hen. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). MR. CHAIRI-'.A:.'I: The hon. me~ber for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Now, Mr. Chairman, I was talking there, be- fore I was so rudely interrupted by the hen. gentleman, about the timing of the statement made by the Pre~ier in the House yesterday. Now I am told a few moments ago word just came in on the wire from the Province of Quebec, La Belle Province, that Mr.

Rene' Levesque called a news conference a few moments ago and told the people of Canada that whatever chance Newfoundland had of getting a corridor throuqh the Province of Quebec.it was killed yesterday by the premature announcement by the Pre~ier of this Province. Just came in on the wire a few moments ago and the hon. gentle- man no doubt will be invited in a few moments, if he has not already been invited, by the great CBC to comment on Mr.~evesque's news conference in 2281

April 17, 1980 Tape No. 863 MB - 3 MR. 5. NEARY: Quebec Province. He said whatever chance the Premier and Newfoundland had of getting a corridor across Quebec it was killed yesterday in the disclosure of a letter in this House by the Premier of this Province. MR. PECKE'ORD: MR. S. NEARY: (inaudible) answer to the letter (inaudible) Mr. Chairman, the idea put forward yesterday 1 and I hope nobody in this House thinks that we are that stupid; that is not the first idea the matter of a corridor across Quebec came up.

One of the fo:r:mer premiers of this Province was on his way to Ottawa with a letter, a Cabinet decision, back in 1966 to ask that the Opper Churchill hydro potential be declared in the National interest and was intercepted in Montreal by the BPINCO officials and a week later Quebec made a decision to allow the power to be exported - MR. BARRY: (inaudible) along the way. MR. NEARY: No. He was intercepted and begged. BRINCO and the Churchill Falls Corporation begged him not to put the letter to Ottawa . But anyway it did not get there. But, Mr.

Chairman, if it had gotten there, if it had gotten there, I ask members this- at the time all the bombings were taking place in the Province of Quebec and what is the point, what would have been the point at that time of the goV@rnment of Canada declaring a national interest and allowing a transmission line across: If you put it in downtown Montreal it would have been destroyed and blown up. And the same thing will happen now 1I submit to this House. The 2282

April 17, 1980 Tape No. 864 EL - 1 MR. S. NEARY: Premier has killed whatever chance we have had, of getting that transmission line across the province of Quebec because even now if Ottawa said yes, and they will not give the hon. gentleman an answer until the referendWil is over 1 l:lut even if they said yes,would not the government of Quebec say,'.No way now'? Will you have a transmission line out in the wilderness? What would happen to it? AN. BON. MEMBER: (Inaudible l . MR. S • NEARY: Oh, listen to the old blue-blood, the old buttoned down ai:nd, the old narrow-minded st~ .John's T~ry bigot. Listen to that MR.

L. BARRY: I thought you liked me. MR. S. NEARY: It is not a matter of like or dis- like. I am talking about the hon. gentleman's politics. Mr. Chairman, it is absolutely astounding,as I said when I was on my feet a few moments ago 1 fhe infamous thing that the Premier did, not only to this province but to Canada. I cannot understand it. It was so shallow when I listened to it yesterday. A camouflage for delaying the develop­ ment of the Lower Churchill by seven years and squandering the taxpayers money back in 1975.

Start of a new era - construction starts on tunnel to bring hydro power to the Island and then Crosbie's statement, that I have in front of me, cancelling the project. And I said yesterday to the hon. gentleman, and the President of the Council and the member for se. John's E~st (W.Marshall) immediately leaped in and said, "No, we did not say it." It was said in this House time and time again and out­ side of this House that not one kilowatt of power would leave this province.

Now, they have changed their policy, altered their policy and yesterda? the Premier used the technique of a Ministerial Statement to do it and to camouflage their mistake; their gross blunder, their big blunder of taking over Chu~chill •Falls back in 1972. And the blunder 2283

April 17, 1980 Tape No. 864 EL - 2 MR. S. NEARY: they have made in the last seven years while the cost of developing the Lower Churchill has escalated from 1.8 billion in 1976 to 3 billion dollars today. MR. FLIGHT: Three hundred million wasted. MR. S. NEARY: Three hundred million wasted on these two explosions. Listen to t~is. Listen to it, Just listen to it. And then you wonder why I get so mad that the press does not pick these things up.

Listen to this. ' The roar of an explosive charge near Flowers Cove on the Great Northern Peninsula this morning, signaled the start of construction of a tunnel underneath the Strait of Belle Isle which will bring Labrador power to the Island of Newfoundland. MR. FLIGHT: MR. S. NEARY: coming. Yes, he was there. MR. BARRY: MR. S. NEARY: The minister was there. You would not know but it was the second Well, I was relieved of my responsibility. He was not relieved of his responsibility. His name is in here somewhere, if I can find it. MR.

FLIGHT: Do you remember the Lloyd's Lake contract you were committed (inaudible) MR. NEARY: Premier Moores was accompanied by Mines and Energy Minister Leo Barry, and Manpower and Industrial Relations Minister Ed Maynard at the Flowers Cove ceremony this morning, and Mr. Barry will also be with him this afternoon for the ceremony on the Labrador side of the Strait. Also participating are Denis Groom president and other officials. The statement that was made yesterday came after seven years of procrastination of waste and extravagance and delay. And the hon. gentleman came in yesterday with his statement.

I can only assume, to try to get the heat off the Minister of Fisheries, that is why he made that statement yesterday, that is why it was necessary to do it - to cover up the breaking of the law by one of his ministers. And look what he has cost Newfoundland now, now he will go out and he will attack Rene Levesque and he will say, 'Well, now it is up to the Government of Canada.' Well, if the hon. gentleman was in the Prime Minister of Canada's shoes right now, what would he do with one 2 2 8!t

April 17, 1980 Tape "No. 864 AA - 3 MR. S. NEARY: of the biqqest Previuces of Canada • I threatening to separate from e--anfederation.?1f0uld he say, yes, Mr. Pre.lllier down there in Newfoundland, Mr. Premier that likes to have your picture taken and to hit the headlines from coast to c:cast, yes, we a,re going to put that transmission line,we are 9CUl'3' to iss\le instructions now to Quebec !lea:t week to allow a corridor to I go across that Province- MR. FLIGHT: MR. S. NEARY: :Is that what he i~ ?Oing to do? ( inaudi.i;.le l What will he do? 228

April 17th., 1980 Tape No. 865 ow - 1 MR. S. NEARY: I will tell you what he will do if he has any sense; He would do what any ordinary human being would do, He would write the Premier and say, 'Thank you, very much.This will acknowledge receipt of your letter of so and so date. We realize this is a serious matter. We will think it over and you will get your answer in due course. PREMIER PECKFORD: If you fellows had not sold it out you would have no problem. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman should go out and get one of Mr. Smallwood's books ~he Time Has Come To Tell and see who sold out what!

Because if we did not have to protect the Upper"Churchill the hon. gentle- man would have no argument at all. That power belongs to Newfoundland and,as I said in this House yesterday- and the press did not think it was important enough to pick up - that instead of Newfoundland taking Churchill Falls Corporation or Quebec Hydro. to court 1 they should be taking us to court for withholding the power. How can we be so stupid in this Province? The power is ours, it belongs to Newfoundland and if we want 900 meqawatts we just tell Churchill Falls Cor­ poration to withhold it and let Quebe~ Hydro sue them.

Let Quebec Hydro sue them if they want to. ~R. BARRY: (Inaudible) MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, we can withhold 800 megawatts of power if we want to because of the law of this land;

an Act of this Legislature supercedes any other contract or any agreement or any letter. The law of this land - does the hen. gentleman know that? - I am not a lawyer. MR.L. RADD_y, You speak against the ,captain. (Inaudible) support it because you leader supports it. Be objective (inaudible) SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 2286

April 17th., 1980 Tape No. 865 DW - 2 MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I did not have an opportunity to answer it yesterday but I am answering it today. But the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) agreed with me yesterday that the reverse situation should apply in Newfoundland, that we should not be taking Churchill Falls to court or Quebec Hydro to court. We should withhold our 800 megawatts of power because the law of this land says we own it and we can have ~t- MR. L.

BARRY: And we w~ll be getting a report in a matter of a few weeks then we will set out the best way (inaudible) the least harassment and the greatest degree of security for this Province. MR. S. NEARY: That is seven years after the fact, four years after they started the court case, four years wasting the taxpayer~ money, squandering the taxpayers money~ Four years later they finally came to the conclusion that there was

an Act of this Legislature. MR. E. ROBERTS: What you are saying is that Crosbie and Peckford were wrong. MR. S. NEARY: Crosbie was wrong, the present Premier who was then Minister of Mines and Energy was wrong and now my hon. friend is right. Well, if that is going to be the strategy and the future, the future strategy of this government, Sir, well then I would say they are starting to get on the right track. But it is seven years too late~ Three billion dollars now it is going to cost and not only that but they have Mr. Levesque's (inaudible). ..!\N F.•:1N •!?~1BE~~ That is bad . MR. S.

NEARY: Yes, it is bad believe it or not. If the hon. gentleman Digging 'em Dillion who does not know the difference may think that it is not bad 1but I happen to think it is bad. Not only is it bad timing for Canada 1but it is bad for Newfoundland. 2287

April 17th., 1980 Tape No. 865 ow - 3 MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird) : Order, please! expired. The han. gentleman's time has The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Chairman, this present tirade by the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has very little to do with the subheads that are under discussion here. MR. S. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: We are doing the Premier's office. Yes, subhead 302-01 which has to do with the salaries in the Premier's office and 302-02-01 to do with travelling, office, grants, the former Premiers general services and so on. That is what it has to do with.

The response to the question by the hon. the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) had to ~o with travelling which was under 302-02-01 and had to do with why the increase. I think if the han. member looks at the original Estimate for last year, before the revised Estimates,it was ai $67,000 but only $35,000 was spent. So what we are doing this year is just putting it at $60,000 not at $67 ,000,just to cover in case there are some unusual expenditures. The actual expenditure last year was about $35,000 so there is nothing unusual about it.

It was just put in there to cover any unusual travelling that might have to occur. Last year we did the same thing and we only spent $35 000 out of $67,000 and · now we are putting it at $60,000. But there is no special reason for it 1 to answerthe gentleman. So that is the only reason for that vote but 2288

April 17, 1980 Tape No. 866 GH-1 PREMIER PECKFORD: it is in line with what it was last year in the original estimates. The revised estimates showed that we saved $32,000 there on that subhead. Hopefully we can do the same thing again this year. The other matters that were mentioned by the hon. the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. F. Rowe) had to do with fisheries policy in the Province. As indicated on a number of occasions since the House opened, we will be dealing with fisheries policy, and we have already indicated, in a pretty clear way, how we stand on the Northern cod issue and we are pursuing that.

An overall fisheries policy is being developed and will be put out in the form of a White Paper. The han. the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde refers to a number of documents that were produced over the last two or three years relative to the fisheries in this Province by the former administration. I am well aware of them, as most han. members of the House, as most honourable citizens of the Province are aware.

Things have happened, since those documents have come out, of significant import to the future of the fishing industry and, hence, we intend to amend and change in whatever way we see fit now to articulate a fisheries policy, which will come out in the form of a White Paper for debate by han. members opposite and by people in Newfoundland generally. That will be done in due course and, hopefully, through the estimates in the fisheries, in the estimates committees - the hon. members on that committee will have an opportunity to debate that fully.

Then, when the estimates come back to the whole Committee, further debate, no doubt, will ensue on that. Also, of course, in the Budget Debate, which will be called next week, han. members will get another opportunity to debate that as well. The whole question of hydro development which is not technically relevant to the subheads under discussion, this is an old debate that has been since I have been in the House, Mr. Chairman, since 1972 - it has been over and over again usually the same ground, very few new ideas. There were no new ideas at all in what the member for Lapoile just had to sav.

He seems to be agitated and excited and somewhat disturbed over events on hydro policy and power policy in the Province and so on. He seems to 2289

April 17, 198 0 Tape No. 866 GH-2 P~~IER ?ECKFORD: be overly disturbed about the fact that the Province of Newfoundland is asking for the same kind of rights that other Canadians have in other provinces for tbe transmission of their natural resources. Pipelines from Alberta through to Quebec to brin9 oil and gas is okay, but now we are asking £or that same kind of trea~ent. We are doing it in a rationaL, reasonable manner. It is unfortunate ii Mr. Levesque wants to say what he has said.

Apparently the Northern ~of the day report ed to bave said, "That is fine, tha t is his position, we disagree with it and we will conti nue to disagree with it". That is why we have called upon the senior government in this Confederation about. it . It has been a longstanding thing. As it relates eo the whole Upper Churchill situat:ion, which is another, if you will , quinta.,]. of fish, another component of overall Labrador power policy - you have the Opper Churchlll, you have the Lower Churchill and you have other c:Ungs in the Province .

The ... hole ques;;,ion of the Upper Churchill is under study right: now by a task force of lawyers. It is in court and so on and there are 229 0

April 17, 1980 Tape No. 867 GH-1 P~~IER PECKFORD: different vie•o11s on it. Suffice it to say that whatever the member for Lapoile (Mr. Neary) says, the people of Newfoundland have spoken on a number of occasions since 1972 as it relates to this very important question as they have on many other important questions. The argument by the han. member for Lapoile has been found to be wanting on a number of occasions along those lines. We will pursue the initiatives that we have outlined yesterday and so on. We are not afraid of Ren~ Levesque.

I am sorry to say that one could easily draw the conclusion that there were people in the Government of Newfoundland years ago who were and who, once again, are showing it again now that they were scared to take a stand, scared to stand up for Newfoundland, scared to stand up for that when it was our birthright, that we had to buy back our own water and all the rest of it. So the member for Lapoile might have a very uneasy conscience. He might be trying now to rationalize his stands years ago.

He is trying to defend himself now and, you know, if he has a problem with that that is his problem and we can all witness it and see it again for what it is worth. Our arguments are clear, we made them and we will continue to make them, and Mr. Levesque notwithstanding, we have no other alternative but to insist and request the senior level of government in this Confederation to allow us to have the same kind of treatment as now is being given to other provinces in the transmission of natural resources across the whole Confederation, and that we will continue to do.

If members opposite are against that policy, if they are against the Northern cod, if they are against the ownership of our oil and gas, if they are against these kinds of things, the people of Newfoundland, again, will speak loud and clear as to how they think this Province should be run over the next ten years. AN HON. MEMBER: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Butt) Order, please! So I do not interrupt the next speaker coming up, the time being almost five o'clock, I now leave the Chair for the han. the Speaker to ~orne in and announce the Late Show. 2291

April 17, 1980 T~pe No. 867 GB-2 !'1R. SPEAJ<Ea: (Simms) Order, please! Although ic is noc quite five o'clock, I can now inform che House that I have received notice for debate at 5:30 of one matter ,w hen a mocion to adjourn will be deemed to be before the House . Notice given by th e hon . the member for Lapoile (Mr . Neary) arising out of a question asked t:he hon . the Premier, and the sub jecc matter concerns the fishery. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Butt) Strait of Belle Isle. MR . ROBERTS : Order, please! The hon . member for the Mr .

Chairman, I want to say a few •..ords on this subhead and I want to divide them into two pares. Both the Premier and his Parliamentary Assistant are out of the Chamber which may be inevitable but is ~t lea s~ discourteous. I •.ronder - and l: have sO!lle specific questions on the Premier - if Your Honour flaps Your Honour 's arms , you know, I have some specifi c qu .escions for the Premier. ! move the Comlittee adjourn, Sir, uncil either the ~~ster responsible or his assistant is here. AN ?!ON. MEl-mER: Hear, hear! MR.

CHAIRl-!AN : It is moved and seconded that the Committee adjourn until the Premier recurns to tr.e House, to the chamber. >.11 t:hose i ::~ !avour aye, contrary nay. In tny opinion the nays have i.t . MR. ROBERTS : MR. CHAIRMAN : MR . ROBERTS: vote nay. Divide the Committee, then, please. Division? Call in the members. Since the P r~er is here we wi ll no w 2292

April 17th., 1980 Tape No. 868 ow - 1 MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): All those in favour 'aye', contrary 'nay', carried unanimously . Strait of Belle Isle. MR. E. ROBERTS: The hon. member for the Your Honour may defeat it unanimously~if it were carried unanimously the committee wou~d have adjourned. But anyway, I had some specific questions,as I said 1 on the Premier's Estimates and per- haps I could they are not all related to 302-but in the interest of not having to have me on my feet repeatedly maybe I could deal with a number of them.

I would like to know ,this Office and Allowance it is 302-02-02 1 I understand what office means but I do not know what allowance means and perhaps the Premier could indicate to the committee exactly what that means. Now I ask because in my under- standing the Premier does not draw a car allowance 1nor should he because in return he does get a car· Your Honour is looking at me quizzically . What have I done? MR. CHAIRMAN : we have not passed 302-01. MR. E. ROBERTS: Order, please~ May I interject and say that Shall I call that subhead now?

I thought I had leave to sort of - let us go at them globall y and in due course Your Honour will put them all through . Let us do it that way. But I just want to know what allowance means. I am certainly not objecting 1I am asking a question. The Premier quite properly is provided with a car by the Government of the Province, there is nothinq new in that , there is nothing wrong. In due course no doubt he will be getting a new car and hopefull y it will be a little one.- AN HON. MEMBER: ' MR. E. ROBERTS: Is there a new one out there? 2293

April 17th., 1980 PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. E. ROBERTS: energy gobbling ones? PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. E. ROBERTS : Tape No. 868 DW - 2 Oh, yes. And it is not one of these 26.8 miles per gallon. That is rather good. Okay. I want to know what the allowance covers and perhaps the Premier could indicate - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. E. ROBERTS: By leave of my colleagues behind me and on the other side 1 if I may carry on . SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. MR. E. ROBERTS: I would like to know while we are it, a general question , what is the car allowance now being paid to ministers who do not receive a car as such?

Secondly, -I will skip down, Your Honour.you know I am skipping but I am still within Head III, which is not bad given the rules of relevancy. Why are we proposing a drop of the qrant to Institute for Research on Public Policy which is specifically 303-05. Now last year we ~ave $20,000;as budgeted this year apparently we to give nothing. There is no vote requested. I am curious about that and I must say I am somewhat surprise because I have always considered the Institute for Research on Public Policy to be rather a good operation.

It is amazing what they have published and I have here their annual report which came just the other day. They have quite a good series of publications and of course, we are represented on them Mr. David Vardy who I believe is Clerk to the Cabinet and Clerk to the Execu­ tive Council and a very senior and a very responsible public servant. He is the government's representative on it• You know, why are we dropping it? And I cannot move that we put it in but I would hope that the government if they had felt it should be dropped would perhaps reconsider 2294

April 17, 1980 Tape 869 EC - 1 MR. E. ROBERTS: that particular decision. I mean, it is not a lot of money, given the scale on which the government are operating, but I think it is $20,000 that is well spent in that it contributes to the budget. It is not a big part of the budget of the institute. According to their annual statement, the institute's revenue last year was $2.274 millions of which the largest

part carne from investment income, operating and endowment funds. Obviously, the institute is not going to go out of business simply because of our decision, but nonetheless, it would mean we would not be participating in what seems to be an institution with wide national support and one which I think performs well for the money which is put into it. The institute, as Your Honour is probably aware, produces some very highly technical studies on areas of public policy and I think most people feel the studies are a good contribution to public discussion in Canada.

I am intrigued by the fact there were six special assistants, apparently, provided for in the Premier's vote, a total salary request for them, $120,000. I wonder if the Premier could list for us, please, the names of whoever - An HON. m:~·1BER: (Inaudible) the other day but I could not get them. MR. E. ROBERTS: Okay, I do not so much care what their salaries are; I am sorry, that is of no particular import that is an average of less than $20,000 a body and that is not too bad in the current world.

I wonder as well - the Parliamentary Assistant to the Premier is, of course, the distinguished member for Harbour Main - Bell Island (Mr. N.Doyle) Has the Premier any other member of this House employed as an assistant? Now, I ask because in days gone by, if I am not 2 2 9 .s

April 17, 1980 Tape 869 · EC - 2 MR. E. ROBERTS: mistaken, the former Premier, Mr. Moores, had an assistant employed at the Corner Brook office and I do not know whether that arrangement is in effect now, and if so, whom and how much is he paid? I think that is legitimate given that that particular gentleman who helped these gentlemen would be a member of the House. I just want to know. I do not think it is unlawful, I think the legislation in the Disabilities Act does provide for that. I would like the Premier to tell us as well if he would, please, who the three personal assistants are.

Again, I do not care about their individual salaries. I have no concern at all. You know, does that include the lady who sort of does the work that Mrs. Templeman used to do? I do not know, I have not been on the 8th Floor for so many years I am not sure what even the layout is - but, you know, sort of the chief private secretary. Although as the Clerk at the table will recall, there was a lady who held the title of Private Secretary as well as a lady who held the title of Personal Assistant to the Premier in Mr. Smallwood's time. And I think the same was true in Mr.

Moores' time, but of course, I was not quite as familiar as I would have been before. I would like to know who the social policy adviser is at $20,000. That is an intriguing one to be found in the Premier's MR. s. NEARY: It ain't Cabot, that is for sure. MR. E. ROBERTS: No, Mr. Martin, I believe, is the senior policy adviser contractual at $50,000 per year. MR. S. NEARY: It is a good thing I defeated him. MR. E.

ROBERTS: Yes, he was done a great favour in that, but I would like to know who the social policy adviser is at - it says $20,000 - again, I am not so much concerned, I do not think that is an outrageous salary, but I would like to know who it is and is that a Public Service position? 2296

April 17, 1980 Tape 869, EC - 3 ~lR. E. ROBERTS: And ! wondex, as well, if the Premier could tell us whether the very large number of people employed in the Executive Council - ~d I do not kn0\11 il there is a t otal in the detailed salary breakdo wns, Your Honour - 165 in all under the general heading of Head 3. MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird) : The han . member 's time is running out . MR. E. ROBERTS : So quickly? The time just whizzes by, Your Honour. MR. CHAIRMAN: Indeed. MR. E.

ROBERTS: You know, are the - I am sorry, Your Honour has not deliberately, but inadvertently broken whatever train of thought I had and I certainly had one . You kno w, are we underrec ruite d? _Are we having di£ficulty recruiting and holding these