Volume 4 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4th. Session VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, APRIL 25, 1975 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE M. JAMES RUSSELL Number 39

April 25, 1975 The House met at 11:00 A.M. Mr, Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPUKER: Order, pleaae! Tape No, 1777 STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR, SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Health. NM - 1 DR. A. ROWE, Minister of Health: Mr, Speaker, I would like to clarify any misunderstanding regarding a recent statement made by me in this honourable House regarding acupuncture, The media have indicated in reporting my statement that I had stated that there was no great demand for acupuncture. This, Mr, Speaker, is not correct.

There is a considerable demand and many people are benefiting from acupuncture in our Province at the present time. What I did say ia that I had not received any great individual demand to me as Minister of Health,and in fact our records show that we have had only thirty letters in the past year from individuals requesting this service and out of the, I underatand, several hundred who received the treatment that this could not be considered a heavy demand.

Actually in the past two days since the statement appeared in the press and on the media, I received a number of enquiries and I received a delegation from the Acupuncture Society of Newfoundland and also in the mail yesterday I received some seventy-nine post cards, each the same, signed by different individuals and all posted the same time and each post card has the wording that, "I support immediate recognition by the «;overnment of Newfoundland of Acupuncture as a medical act to be carried out under " the supervision of qualified physicians and dentists and each card is signed by a different individual.

Now it is accepted that acupuncture has a very definite place in the relief of pain and has certain anesthetic qualities, but I should like now to indicate to the honourable House the departmental policy with regard to acupuncture. Acupuncture is a medical or a dental act. In other words it is a procedure which must be performed by fully registered physicians and dentists who have had an approved course of training in acupuncture. In practical terms the likely minimum period of this training in acupuncture would be 5214

April 25, 1975 Tape No. 1777 NM - 2 three months full time. Acupuncture at the present time in Canada is practiced on an experimental basis. This means that its effect on relief of pain in the long term, its place as a substitute for general anae s thetic in minor and major surgery and its value in therapy is not yet fully proven in the Canadian context, Accordingly acupuncture must be practiced in a setting where rigorous scientific evaluation is possible.

An appropriate setting then during this experimental period is a clinic in an approved or accredited hospital, preferably one which is affiliated with a faculty of medicine.

And during this experimental period, re1111neration for approved physicians practicing in an approved setting should be on a sessional basis and there are precedents for this already in Canada, notably the Vancouver General Hospital, The Associate Deputy Minister of the Department of Health, Dr, Suttte, attended on behalf of the department, the National Conference on Acupuncture in January of this year and is now discussing with representatives of the Newfoundland Medical Association and the Newfoundland Dental Association, and the faculty of medicine of Memorial University, the appropriate next step which should be taken for the regulation of the practice of acupuncture in this Province.

I would wish it to be known that the Department of Health, in co-operation with these other associations and the university, have proceeded and will proceed in the manner which we feel will be to the greatest benefit of Newfoundlanders who require acupuncture. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, with reference to the minister's statement, I do not need to add anything to the first part of it where he dealt with a clarification of a report that had been aarried widely in the press and I think it was not so much an error of the press as the fact the minister had not made himself as clear initially as he did subsequently. 5215

April 25, 1975. Tape 1778 RH - 1 I am very pleased to hear that the minister at long last is moving on the acupuncture question. I think there are two aspects to the problem, Sir. The first is the one in which we ~ust act immediately and that is the area in which the minister is apparently going to act, namely to bring acupuncture in this Province under a degree of control and regulation.

The second area where governments eventually must and I believe will act is to include acupuncture within the insured services spectrum whether it come under the Hospital Insurance Programme or under the Medical Care Insurance Programme, the two programmes under which health services are made available to the people of this Province at no direct charge to those people.

Now, Sir, the important one, the initial step, the step which must be taken,and I would urge the minister to take it immediately, is to bring acupuncture under regulatory control in the same way as any other medical procedure is controlled by the appropriate bodies. There are precedents in Canada, perhaps the most relevant would be the Province of Ontario where, and I have a statement here made by the Minister of Health in Ontario, the honourable Mr. Miller who interesting enough at one stage was a chemistry teacher at St. Andrew's College while I was a student there in the late 1950s.

We used to call him the Jolly Miller. I do not know if he still has the nickname of not. But the honourable Mr. Miller made a ministerial statement, Sir, in Ontario on January 8, two or three months ago in which he said that he viewed with favour the intention of the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario to enforce strict medical control of acupuncture in the Province of Ontario.

I quote now, the minister said, "I believe that the new acupuncture regulations which the college will be issuing limiting the practice of acupuncture to registered physicians and in the case of lay practitioners to those who have passed examinations set and conducted by the college will provide an essential measure of protection to the public from unskilled and unqualified practitioners." Mr. Speaker, I believe that is an important step forward and it is 5216

April 25, 1975. Tape 1778 RH - 2 one which I think we should take immediately in Newfoundland. The Ontario College and the Ontario Government have not, as I understand it, taken a definitive stand on the merits of acupuncture or the specific medical situations to which it would be applicable an~ desirable but they have moved to provide that its practice may only be carried out by duly qualified people acting within the scope of regulations.

I understand there is some danger in Newfoundland that un­ qualified people may set up as acupuncturists and offer their services or pretend to offer or hold themselves out as being qualified. We have a couple of doctors who are practicing and there is no question of them. But the fact remains that any other person, Sir, - Your Honour, you could set up this afternoon or I could set up as an acupuncturist and there is no way the public at large have any reason to know that we are not qualified. It is the duty of the government to insure that only people who are qualified are able to offer services.

Ontario has shown the lead. The Canadian Armed Forces have adopted essentially the same position and I think we should in Newfoundland. There is no need to wait for any reports or any studies to do this. That is just the basic minimum protection which the state affords in all of the so-called professions and that is to insure that a person who holds himself out as being qualified is in fact qualified.

So I would urge the minister, I am not sure the precise legal steps, I would think it would be an Order in Council or perhaps a ministerial order, but I would urge the minister without delay to take that step and then once that is done then there will be time to look into the merits of the practice as to exactly where acupuncture can be valuable, it can certainly be valuable in some cases, define those and then we can tangle with the question of making it an insured service within the meaning of those progrannnes. The only thing I would add, Mr.

Speaker, is that the minister said only thirty letters have been received. I know that thirty letters is not a lot of letters piled up and I do not have access 5217

April 25, 1975. Tape 1778 Rll - 3 to the minister's correspondence, of course, the present minister,but I would say that to receive. thirty letters on any given medical. sub­ ject would be as many letters as the minister has received in total on all medical subjects in any comparable period of time. It is a lot of letters, Sir, and I would take that as a very real indication of a great de.al of public interest.

There is a lot of public interest 1n acupuncture and I think, Sir, the public interest of this Province requires immediate action by the government to insure that those people who do offer acuptmcture are qualified to do so and are doing so wit.hin appropriate and proper terms of reference. ,· 5218

April 25, 1975 Tape No. 1779 PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bonavista South. NM - 1 MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition from the residents of the communities of Southern Bay and Princeton in Bonavista South and the prayer of their petition is that the road leading from the main Cabot Highway down through the Peninsula, that road leading down through the Southside of Bonavista Bay be reconstructed. Mr.

Speaker, the Southside of Bonavista Bay, there are nineteen communities, and there is one main road serving these nineteen communities and that road is a very rough, winding, gravel road. It is the main road, fortv miles of rough, winding, gravel road. And this petition is asking for the top end of that road, serving all these communities, the nineteen communities and all along the shore and Southside of Bonavista Bay, be reconstructed. They are not asking for paving, they are asking for reconstruction this year. And this petition, Mr.

Speaker, has my one hundred per cent, because as the prayer of the petition points out, there has been little or no work done on that shore down there for twenty-six years, twenty-six years since the road was initially constructed down there. It is the same old, narrow, winding,rough, gravel road. AN HON. MEMBER: The Cabot Highway - MR. MORGAN: No, this is the south - they call it the Shore Road. It serves all the communities. AN HON. MEMBER: - up the Cabot Highway. MR. MORGAN: No. AN HON. MEMBER: No. It was one time. MR. MORGAN: No. It was Che Cabot Highway at one time.

It was the Cabot Highway going down through to Bonavista and then the federal officials decided in co-ordination with the provincial government of the day that the main road going down to Bonavista would go down through the Peninsula, away from the communities. Of course that was a DREE road. It is going down to the middle of nowhere, _,really, but it leads down to the tip of the Peninsula to Bonavista.

Whereas all these conununities at the time, nineteen of them, had 5219

April 25, 1975 Tape No. 1779 NM - 2 delegations in with the government of the day, met with the federal officials also and they were strongly opposed to that DREE road going down through the middle of the Peninsula because it would not serve the nineteen communities along the Southside of Bonavista Bay. And they felt they were going to be neglected and forgotten and in fact that is the eituation, they have been neglected and forgotten. So this road, Mr.

Speaker, is of the utmost importance to the whole economy of Bonavista South and when I say Bonavista South I mean the Southside of Bonavista Bay, all nineteen communities, small communities but viable connnunities, important communities.

In the last three years we have seen a new school built in King's Cove, a new high school, another new school, elementary school built in Plate Cove, along that side of the Bay,and the school bus transportation is used extensively back and forth,and that is one important factor,but the other very, very important factor is this road is the only link to the outside world, and it is of the utmost importance to have a transportation system to serve all these nineteen communities.

So this petition is only from two communities along that shore but the two communities i am referring to in this petition are the two at the top of the road. In other words, from the turn off from the DREE road, the main highway going down to the peninsula, turning off to go down to serve the nineteen communities on the Southside of the bay I sincerely hope, Mr. Speaker, that this year that there will be a reconstruction contract let from Southern Bay, down as far as Summerville and this is approximately six miles. It is not too much to ask for. They are not asking that the road be reconstructed all in one year.

We did do some reconstruction on this road last year. A contract was let in the SllDDllerville area which is in about the middle of the road, down the shore. They did some reconstruction and overcome the hazardous sections of that road and took away some elevations which were hazardous to school bus operation. So, Mr. Speaker, I fully support the petition and I sincerely hope that the Minister of Transportation and Connnunications and his officials will see fit and hopefully the funds will be available for a reconstructiGU contract this year on this aection of road from Southern Bay down to Summerville. 5220

April 25, 1975 Tape 1780 (morning) IB-1 -~~]'['AKfP: The honour ab le the 1'-"ember for Lahra<lor North. ''l?. WOOnWARn: Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House support the nrayer of the petition presented by the Member for Bonavista South. Indeed, Sir, Princeton is a COIT!J1lunity that I know of. I know of some of the people in the communi t:,. As a matter of fact, some of the people have worl.:ecl with me over the years from that area. I might add that there are some very good people alonp, that stretch of the road. We think that the onus is on the Minister of Transportation and Communic,it1ons.

I do not know if he has taken a look at it or what com~unications the Member for Bonavista South has had with the Minister of Transportation and Communications, his colleague. No doubt that he must have talked it over with him. I do not suspect, Mr. Speaker, that this petition came out of the blue. But, we feel that something should be done in that respect. We feel that if there are nineteen communities in\Tolvec1, it is only a matter of the upgrading of six miles of road or reconstruction of six mj_les of road - AN llONOTJRARLE t.fE),,!RFR: Forty miles. MR. \-100DWARD: Forty miles . MR.

HORGA},: •.••• the Long Harhour Road. '."R. WOODWARD: Whatever the conc1itions are, Mr. Speaker, we feel that the minister should at least give some consideration this Summer with his $100 million hudget to do some reconstruction on that road for the Member for Bonavista South. '-'1'-. ~PEAKF.R: The honour ah le ~•in1 ster of Transportation and Communications. HON. J. llOUSSEAU (MINISTER 01' TllANSPORTATION ANT) COMMUNICATIONS): Mr. Spe:aker, first of all I woul.cl like to say that we will certainly accept the petition ancl ~•ill give it the most sympathetic consideration that is possi\--le.

The memher has heen suggesting the importanci> of this road. All honoun,hle members of the House tend to keep inferring to me how many roans are not done in their district. I think the Nember for llon'3vista South is norma11y in and he is always telling me about how many miles of unpaved road he has, and he had brought this one tn my 11ttention. J accept the necessity of tM.s situation especially when nineteen cornmunj ties are concerned on the South Side of Bonavi.sta Bay. 5221

April 25, 1975 Tape 17RO (morning) IR-2 I unfortunately could not give a commitment to the member ~ut we will certainly give it the most sympathetic consideration, and we will take a look at it within our overall roads programme. But, we certainly will give it consideration especially in light of the great number of people who live in the area. The member has, as I say, broup.ht it up to me personally, not once, not twice, not three times, but about 100 times. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Every day. MR. ROUSSEAU: Every day. Rut anyway we will give it sympathetic consideration, as I told the member.

I cannot make a commitment and no commitment has been made to him, but we certainly will give it sympathetic consideration. I am sure honourable members realize that if every petition that was sent to the House, if we acceded to that, we would - pardon? MR. NEARY: When will they get an answer? MR. ROUSSEAU: Imminently. I do not know when they are going to get an answer really. You know, as the honourable member who has been a cabinet minister knows, to set dates on things - you know, es soon as possible is all I can say. Not instant, the answers do not come instantly. I wish they did really.

But we will certainly give it sympathetic consideration and we will look at the petition and we will have officials of the department look at it and see what can be done. f-fR. SPEAKER: Are there any other petitions? NOTICE OF MOTION: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Justice. HON. A. HICKMAN (MINISTER OF JUSTICE): Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following bills: A bill, "An Act Respecting A Plan Of Legal Aid For The Province." On behalf of the honourable Minister of Industrial Relations and Manpower, a bill, "An Act To Control The Relationship Between Employers And Employees Within The Province And To Provide llniform Minimum Standards Of Conditions Of Employment," And a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Workmen's Compensation Act." On behalf of the honourable the Minister of Finance, "An Act 5222

Apri 1 2'i, Jq75 Tape 17~0 (morning) rurthrr To Amend The r.asoUne Tax Act. " 1 p.ive notice that T wjll on tomorrow ask the !louse to resolve itself into a l:ommittee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions for the granting of supply to Per Majesty. IB-3 And, a hill, "An Act To Amend Certain Statutes Of The Province.'' "!ll. SPF.A.'(F.ll : The honourahle Minister of Mines and Energy. 5223

April 25, 1975 Tape no. 1781 Page 1 - mw MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on tomorrow I will on tomorrow ask leave to inteoduce a bill, "An Act Relating To The Disposition Of Minerals Within The Province," which is the revised Crown Lands, Mines and Quarries Act. The New Minerals Act, I think, will be the

short title. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on tomorrow - MR. ROBERTS: It will replace the Crown Lands Act. MR. BARRY: The old Crown Landa, Mines and Quarries Act. MR. ROBERTS: Crown Lands will become a new heading. MR. BARRY: Yea, the old Crown Lands, Mines and Quarries Act has been rewritten in effect and will become the new Minerals Act - MR. ROBERTS: Will that govern the dispollition of Crown lands? MR. BARRY: - which will govern the disposition of mine11al rights. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. BARRY: I am sorry, Mr.

Speaker, but I think it is of value where you have these titles and concern can be caused to the general public, Mr. Speaker, it might, with the leave of the House, be useful just to give a little explanation as to what government is intending. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on tomorrow I will ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Mining Tax Act," and to repeal the Mineral Landa Taxation Act. And finally, Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on tomorrow I will ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Impose A Tax Upon The Land In Respect Of Which Persons Have The Right To Mine." This is the

short title. It will probably be the Mineral Lands Acreage Tax,

an act designed to encourage the reversion to the Crown of the mineral rights that are held in fee simple or over which the Crown now have very little control. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Mini.ster of Forestry and Agriculture. HON. H. COLLINS: (Minister of Forestry and Agriculture): Mr. Speak•r, I give notice that on tomorrow I w1·11 ask leave of the House to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Forest Fires Act," and a bill, 5224

April 25, 1975 Tape no. 1781 Page 2 - mw "An Act To Amend The Natural Product• Marketing Act," and also a bill, "An Act Respecting The Tranefer Of Certain Lands From Reid Newfoundland Limited And Mine And Forests Newfoundland Limited To Her Majesty In Right Of Newfoundland," MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Health. HON. DR. A.

ROWE (Minister of Health): Mr, Speaker, I give notice that I will on tOlllOrrow bri•g to thi Bouse, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Hospital  Act," and I give notice that I will on tomorrow bring to this House, "An Act Respecting The Provieion Of Funaral Servicee," ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVER: MR. SPEAKER: The Bon, Minister of Education. HON. G. OTTENHEIMER (Hon, Miniater of Education.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to a.~swer Question No. 51 on the Order Paper today asked by the Bon.

Member for Bell Island, Have there been any contracts or agreements or any payments made by the Department of .Education during the fiscal year ending March 31, 1974 to date to Cabot Group 4 Limited? And the answer is, no, Therefore, the other parts would not be applicable. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Health. DR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, an answer to Question No. 50 on the Order Paper of the same content, Are there any contracts, agreement• or any payments made by the Department of Health during the fiscal year ending March 31, 1974, preU111ably that means 1974, to date to Cabot Group 4 Limited?

The anawer is,no. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Transportation and Co11111unications, HON. J. ROUSSEAU {Minister of Transportation and Communications): I do not know the number but there has been no involvement with Cabot 4 with the Department of Transportation and Communications. I would think it is either 49 or 48 or somewhere on the Order Paper yesterday. And a couple of other answers by the way, Mr. Speaker, if I may, to questions that were posed yesterday, The Bon. Member for Bell Island 5225

April 25, 1975 Tape no, 1781 Page 3 - mv had his ear to the radio and asked me about a report, and it sort of did not tick with me, but actually the situation was in respect to the Bishops Falls Riport. Now we do not have it, It was just 7resented last night which waa what was on the radio, MR. NEARY: Doss the honourable minister have a copy? MR.ROUSSEAU: No.

So if I may, because it is, I think., really iaportant so I will just read the information that I have ao you will know what it is all about, if you are that interested 1n it, The Atlantic Provinces Tr11D11portation Conmission was invited by the Exploits Valley Development Association and the Department of Rural Development to undertake a feasibility study of the eentral Newfoundland Freight Distribution operation in the Grand Falls-Bishops Falla area, Now the group wanted to hire a consultant, We were asked whether the A,P.T.C. would do it, and we suggeated they would and it was quite a saving, It will probably coat one-quarter or one-third of what it would cost with an outside conaultut.

So the Atlantic Provinces 5226

J\pril 25, 1975 Tape 1782 (Morning) PK - 1 Transportation Commission undertook that study. The objective of the study was to determine the economic feasibility of the establish­ ment of the central warehousing and distribution operation in that area. In the course of the study the following subject matters were analyzed; potential market area, major commodity categories and source of supply, inbound transportation alternatives, cost of inhound transportation, outbound transportation alternatives and cost, competition from other distribution centres, and the scale of warehouisinp.; and cost.

Now the formal oresentation 1as I understand it,of the study was done last nip.;ht in Bishops Falls. And my Director of Transportation was indeed asked to attend the meeting but he did not receive the invitation until about 4:00 or so yesterday after­ noon, hut there was an official from the Department of Rural nevelopment who attended the meeting and undoubtedly he will be filling in the Director of Transportation. Of course we stand prepared, vou know, with any group of this nature to assist him in anv way nossible in resnect to transportation.

So should they at some future time request the presence of the Director of Transportation he ~dll be there. Now if I may also,if the House - I presume this is a nuestion which the honourable members asked yesterday on the Cape Shore "Road thing, that was a question that I said I would bring up to date after the officials got back. And I have talked to the officials this morning, there were two of them down there yesterday.

And as I understand it yesterday or by this morning they had all the soft areas filled in except two, the areas around Ship Cove and Patrick's Cove, and those areas will be filled in hopefully by this afternoon, but sometime today, and the road hopefully will be passable. The concentrated effort I suggested, Mr. Speaker, yesterday­ we have down in the area two dozers, eight trucks, four graders, and two front end loaders.

Certainly we do not intend to take the equipment out, Now as soon as the road is passable we will continue doing some ditch1.np.; and widening of the road down there, and we will try and make the road as we say as passable as possible. As I understand it there 5227

April 25, 1975 Tape 1782 (Morning) PK - 2 is no problem from,say,Branch to St. Brides, it is just on the Point Verde - St. Brides Road. So by this afternoon all the soft spots should have been filled in, and we will continue to work on the road at that time. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for his answers, Sir. All that the people need down there is a political spokesman, that is all. MR. SPEAKER: Are there any more answers to questions for which noti~e has been given? AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Ottenheimer is goinp to - ORAL QUESTIONS The Hon. Member for Bell Island. MR.

NEARY: Mr. - does the honourable - MR. ROBERTS: question. MR. BARRY: You can not have the honourable member not ask a I was going to ask, Mr. Speaker, if I could have leave to introduce a further bill? MR. SPEAKER: a bill? MR. BARRY: HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKRR: MR. BARRY: Does the honourable minister have leave to introduce Or to - Agreed. Agreed. Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that on tomorrow that I ask leave to introduce c!. bill, "An Act To Impose A Tax Upon Income Received By Certain Persons Holding The Right To Mine." And this refers to certain landlords who are recovering revenue,as pointed out in the royal commission,from existing mining operations. And I might also point out, Mr. Speaker, that we hope to be in a position to have these bills released for public consideration, and of course to the members of the Opposition some time around the middle of May if possible. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, if I might ask a question on the Orders of the Day relating to - I guess it should go the House Leader, the Minister of Justice, growing out of this. A number of notices have 5228

April 25, 1975 Tape 1782 (Morning) PK - 3 been given today that are fairly important, heavy pieces of legislation, The Labour Standards Code and the Mining Tax Legislation and eo forth. Now the word in the Rouse is that the Rouse will adjourn, who knows, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday of next week. We will probably conclude this business now before us unless we are to go into the type legislation of which notice has been given today. I wonder if the !louse Leader - I do not know if it is a proper question, I will put it.

Itis a proper matter to raise, and it is a proper place to raise it - could indicate - what I would suggest and request is that the bills be made public, be given first reading, the order to be printed 1 be made public, hopefully being provided to the members of the House on all sides first, and then I know that other groups - The Labour Standards Code> well the Federation of Labour will certainly wish to be consulted publicly. They may well have been consulted privately on this. The Mining Tax legislation, and the legislation growing out of the Royal Commission on Mining ~ax Revenues.

In other words what I am asking is, can we agree on a procedure now where these bills will be made public and then when the House meets a month or so from adjournment we will debate them? Or are we to be faced with the prospect of having the bills go through in the same way as would, you know, a more usual, a very small piece of legislation? I prefer the former course, and I think it wouli give us a better chance on all sides, but if it is to be the latter then we will do our share. 5229

April 25, 1975. Tape 1783 RJI - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Justice. HON. A. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, the plan or the hope is that today we would debate the , continue with the Address in Reply debate unless, maybe sometime this afternoon a supply bill will get up,but that will not take very long,and then continue on with the Address in Reply debate until it is concluded. Then the House would be asked to debate the various pieces of legialation, none of which are very major. MR. ROBERTS: They now stand on today's Order Paper. MR. HICKMAN: They are now on the Order Paper and have been circulated.

There may be some more circulated on Monday, again routine bills. The majc;,r pieces of legislation of which notice have been given today, the Labour Standards Act and the four mining bills, the others are primarily again - MR. ROBERTS : They seem to be housekeeping, I would like to see them. MR. HICKMAN: Housekeeping bills.

As soon as these bills have - the drafting have been completed and received a second reading, the bills received from the printer, they will be distributed to members of the House so that when the House reconvenes in June no member of the House will be called upon to be placed in the position to participate in debating in second reading a till that he has not had an opportunity, adequate opportunity to first study it. MR. ROBERTS: Can they - will they be made public after they are distributed in the House? MR.

HICKMAN: My understanding is again that as soon as the bills have been made - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: MR. HICKMAN: bills - MR. ROBERTS: MR. HICKMAN: No, the House will not meeting, you see. No, the House is not meeting, but as soon as the That is the problem . - have been printed and circulated to members of the House, that any interesting groups will also have access to the bills - MR. ROBERTS: They should be made public to the press as well. 5230

April 25, 1975, Tape 1783 RR ~ 2 ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the honourable House Leader, the acting, acting Premier, the Minister of Justice could tell us the whereabouts of the honourable the Premier? MR. HICKMAN: The honourable the Premier is to go to Grand Falls, the honourable the Member for Grand Falls - heading for the elevator - he will be accompanying him. MR. ROBERTS : It will be his first visit to Grand Falls in six months. MR.

HICKMAN: And I am having tremendous difficulty holding the honourable the Minister of Education in his seat but he has to be off now to - MR. NEARY: Is it government business, private, personal or what? MR. HICIOiAN: To open a new school - which school is it? MR. OTTENHEIMER: The Premier and I - MR. HICKMAN: What kind of school is it? MR. OTTENHEIMER: It is an elementary school under the Integrated School Board. MR.HICKMAN: A new elementary school having recently been built by the Integrated School Board in Grand Falls. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker -, a question for the acting, acting PrBllier, MR. HICKMAN: (First

part inaudible,) leave anything for the Minister of Education - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: MR. NEARY: - Minister of Justice. Would the minister care to tell the House whether or not the liquor store employees walked off the job this morning? MR. HICKMAN: That question would be more properly directed to the acting President of Treasury Board, MR. NEAR~: Who is the acting President of Treasury Board? MR. HICKMAN: He is taking his seat right now. MR. THOMS: School boy debater. MR. NEARY: Well, would the honourable school boy debater care to tell us - 5231

April 25, 1975. Tape 1783 RH - 3 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! If the honourable Member fo.r Bell Island wishes to ask a question of an honourable minister then he should address the honourable minister in his capacity as minister or the district which he represents. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, would the honourable Minister of }fines and Energy representing the district of Placentia West, acting President of the Treasury Board please tell the House whether or not the liquor store employees walked off the job this morning, went on strike? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Right on. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, I might say initially that I do not mind if the honourable Member for Bell Island wishes to insult all school boys and ex-school boys in the Province. That is fine with me. Mr. Speaker, yes, I understand there is a press release being issued by the President of Liquor Corporation to inform the public, I think the public very likely already knows, that as a result of strike action taken by the Newfoundland As9ociation of Public Employees that all liquor stores in the Province have been closed effective today, Friday, April 25. MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Is it the intention of the government to keep the liquor stores closed while the strike is on? It is a lawful strike, I understand. The employees have the right to strike. They have gone through the appropriate procedures. Is it the intention of the Corporation and/or the government, they are the same in this sense, to keep the liquor stores closed for the duration of the strike? 5232

April 25, 1975 Tape No. 1784 NM - 1 MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, one thing that I am not prepared to do is to have the negotiations carried on in the media or in the House and I am not prepared to answer questions that are apparently designed to provoke a situation. The government's position is that this is a lawful strike, that the employees have the legal right to strike.

This government believes in the principle of collective bargaining,the natural conclusion of which is that if employees believe that they are •ot in a position to accept an offer made by their employer, then they are entitled,after following the due process of law, as they have done in this case, they are entitled to go out on strike and I think, Mr. Speaker, that with respect to picket lines, that that is the only statement I am prepared to make. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I have a further supplementary, The minister knowingly or not completely missed the point.

The minister said, and he wonders why we call him the school boy debater, he just gave us an example of it, the minister said that the President of the Liquor Corporation was announcing that the liquor stores were closed.

Now there is a difference between a store being closed and a store being subject to a lawful strike, the di_fference being that if anybody wishes to become a scab and cross the picket line, that he or she can go into that store, Now there is a difference and I am asking the minister,as the only person we can ask in this House, whether the government or the corporation intend to keep the stores closed. Now there is a difference and it is a very important difference. It has nothing to do with the negotiations or anything else.

It is a question of the attitude which management is going to take during what is, we all agree, a lawful strike. So I wonder if the minister could tell us that and the question is asked only because he himself indicated that he had been informed by the President, Mr. Canning, of the LiqUGr Corporation, that the Corp••ation were closing their stores. Now there is a difference in that on the one hand and on the other hand - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!. Order, please! The honourable Leader of the Opposition is continuing to make a speech, not asking his question. 5233

April 23, 1975 Tape No, 1784 NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS : Your Honour, I have asked a question, and the question is quite simply, and I will repeat it again since the Minister of Justice seems to have been unable to grasp it,and ,erhaps I am unable to get it - the question is, are the government or the corporation going to close the stores as the minister indicated, or is it _going to be simply a situation where the stores are on strike. There is a difference, a very real difference. There is no difference to me, I am not going to cross the picket line.

There may be a difference to anybody who wants to cross the picket line,and the question is, are the liquor stores closed or are they subject to strike? AN HON. MEMBER: That is a good question, MR, ROBERTS: It is, a very - MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Mines and Energy, MR, BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure if the Leader of the Opposition is attempting to encourage government to involve scab labour in crossing picket lines, SOME HON. MEMBERI: Inaudible, MR, BARRY: I have made my statement, Mr. Speaker.

I think it is quite clear and my statement was that as a result of strike action taken by the Newfoundland Association of Public Employees, that all liquor stores in the Province have been closed, effective today, Friday, April 25, and that is al~I am prepared to say at this time on that matter. If there are later developmeata that require further statement , either from the President of Treasury Board, the Acting President of Treasury Board or the President of the Liquor Corporation,they will be made.

But at the present time that is the only statement that we are prepared to make with respect to the closing of the stores. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a further - AN HON. MEMRER: Inaudible. MR.SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: A further supplementary. Am I right in concluding from the minister's remarks that even the managers will not be in the store? Will there be any security in the liquor stores? Will the doores be licked, customers 5234

April 23, 1975 Tape No. 1784 NM - 3 cannot go in if they want to? Will the manager ~e there? Will the security people be there? MR.ROBERTS: Hospitals are not closed for a strike. MR.. NEARY: The minister is not making - would he clarify that for us? MR • . BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the fact that the store is closed will mean that - MR. NEARY: Nobody is there. 'MR, BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the honourable l!lember is puttiag word into my 1110uth, The nonnal security provisions or wha.tever else is necessary - MR. NEAFY: That is good. MR. BARRY: - and reasonable ~ MR. NEARY: That is it. MR..

BARRY: - when. liquor stores are closed will be complied with, I assume - MR. ROBERTS: - the fact all the stores are closed, MR. BARRY: t assume, Mr. Speaker, that the management, that the management of the corporation - MR. NEARY: - nothing to you. MR. BARRY:, - who have their offic .es in buildings will presumably be pe.rmitted to, as in any lawful strike, to do what managment .no:naally does when a strike is on, what is reasonable for management to do. MR. NEARY: The minister said everything is closed. But you said everything is closed. MR. BARRY: S 111'.ermarkets are not closed. 5235

April 25, 1975. Tape 1785 RH - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary, a further supple- mentary to the minister, Sir. Would the minister tell the House whether there are any negotiations going on at the moment or is there a standoff between the parties? MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the corporation has indicated its willingness to c.ontinue negotiations but at the present time the parties appear to be at an impasse or a standoff, as the honourable Member from Bell Island describes it. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary to the minister.

Would the minister tell the House approximately the daily loss of revenue as a result of the government closing the liquor stores? MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I cannot give you the exact - I could get that information. I will make a note of it. But, Mr. Speaker, I would point out that I have been informed that the revenue for the corporation has increased significantly over the last several weeks because,presumably, of people stocking up in anticipation of the strike. I understand that NAPE itself stocked up for its convention,according to Mr. Peddie. So this has meant an increase in the revenue of the corporation.

The minister forgot to stock up unfortunately. It could be taken as relying on inside infomation, so he decided not to. So, Mr. Speaker, the position is is that the revenue has increased to the extent over the last several weeks that on the average you could assume that there would be no decrease in earnings for the year if the strike were to continue up to a month, I believe is the approximate computation, but it is a very, very rough figure. But the fact that the strike is on today apparently will not mean a decline in revenue for the corporation today or maybe tomorrow or the next day. MR.

ROBERTS: In other words, we are a month ahead of - MR. BARRY: That is roughly what I understand to be the situation. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary. Is the minister aware that NA?E,employees of the Liquor Corporation who are members of NAPE are also prepared to continue negotiations? Is the minister aware of that? 5236

April 25, 1975. Tape 1785 RH - 2 If so, how can the parties continue talks at the bargaining table? Is the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations, for instance, involved in the discussions? And if the minister is aware of this, could I have his reaction? Row do they - MR. BARRY: When you sit down, you will get it. MR. NEARY: Yes, okay. I will sit down. }IR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I assume that if the corporation has indicated its willingness to continue negotiations and NAPE has indicated its willingness to continue negotiations - MR. NEARY: What is next? MR.

BARRY: - that the parties, the next step should be for the parties to sit down at the bargaining table. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary: Is not the acting President of the Treasury Board being penny wise and pound foolish, losing all this revenue for the sake of a few hundred thousand dollars a year? Is it not better to sit down and negotiate an agreement rather than close the liquor stores? MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, we are, the corporation is completely prepared to continue negotiations as it has already stated and I have already indicated that apparently there will not be any loss of revenue for some time for the corporation, to reply to that aspect of the honourable member's question. But apart from that, the corporation is willing and will remain willing to negotiate in good faith, to attempt to arrive at a reasonable settlement. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I am dissatisfied with the minister's answer and I wish to debate this matter during the late show next Thursday afternoon and I would like to end up by asking the minister one final question. Did the honourable the gentleman in charge of the Premier's dining room manage to get the stock in down there before they closed the liquor stores? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The question is out of order. MR. BARRY: I hope so, Mr. Speaker, but I do not know. 5237

April 25, 1975. Tape 1785 RU - 3 ORDERS OF THE DAY: On motion of the honourable Minister of Justice, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The SuJ11111ary Jurisdiction Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. 5238

Apri 1 2.'i, 1975 Tape 1786 (morning) IB-1 Ml! • SPEAKER : On motion 3. On motion of the Bonourable the Minister of Justice, a bill, "An Act To Adopt An Anthem For The Province Of Newfoundland," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. AN !IONOTTRAllLE MF:MBER: Motion 3. MR. SPEAKER: We just did Motion 3.

On motion of the Honourable the Minister of Finance, a bill, ''An Act Further To Amend The Public Service (Pensions) Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow, On motion of the Bonourable the Minister of Finance, at.ill, "An Act Further To Amend The Civil Service Act," read a first t:lme, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Honourable the Minister of Finance, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Counting Of War Service As Pensionable Service," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. HICKMAN: '-'R. SPEAKER: Order I, Address in Reply.

Order 1, Address in P.eply. As I understand it the honourable Member for Berrni tage introduced what in essence was an nonconfidence amendment, I think, to the Address in Reply. The honourable Member for Hermitage is not in his place. So, he obviously loses his right to continue. So, I have to recognize another honourable member. 'W. EARY: Mr. Speaker - l-'IR. SPF.AKER: '!'he honourable Member for llell Island. MP.. NEAPY: I have already spoken. When I say Mr. Speaker that means I have to carry on. :'!R. TIOJ\F.F'TS : Inaudible. MR. NEARY : Could you give that to the clerk? Un less it is by leave .

If another member wishes to speak, Sir, then I can sp eak after. I w111 be r,lad to - AN H<lNOTJl<AllLf. MEMllER: Inaudih le. MR . ROTlF.RTS: Yes well, Ro~er is not here and if somebody on that side wan ts to SP Pak - (Second

part inaudible) MR. NF.ARY: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the amendment made by the Member for Hermitage which is really, Sir, the traditional vote of nonconfidence :l.n the government. It was the amendment, Sir, that I 5239

April 25, 1975 Tape 178fi (morning) rn-2 was in the process of moving when I was, shall we say, when I was forced to leave the House on a motion that was made hy the Minister of Fisheries, the · Government House Leader. The amendment, Sir, has to do with three major items, three matters that I consider personally to be top priority items, three matters, Sir, that for some reason or another the government have chosen to ignore during this current session of the House of Assembly.

The amendment, Str, has to do with lack of action hy the administration to come to grips, to provide solutions to the problem of the risin g cost of living in this Province.

The amendment regrets the failure of the administration to introduce programmes to reduce the constantly increasing number of persons who are unemployed, and further regrets the inadequacy of measures to deal with the dramatic increases in work stoppages as a result of strikes and lockouts, ,both legal and illegal, and regrets further the lack of concern and of measures to research and deal with the rising tide of vandalism and criminal activity which is on the upsurge dail y in urban areas throughout Newfoundland and Labrador. Now, Mr.

Speaker, it is my intention to deal with the last item first, the matter of the rising tide of vandalism and criminal activity which is on the upsurge daily, Sir, in this Province. I do not think, Mr. Speaker, that any honourable member of this House, any citizen of this Province will deny the fact, Sir, that vandalism, criminal activities in this Province, lawlessness, lack of respect for law and order is on the upswing. Well,the minister may deny it if he wants to, Mr. Speaker. you c:an hardly pick up a paper today in this Province but you do not find an item, Sir, that would almost shock you out of your shoes.

Now, Tam not trying to create alarm, Sir. I do not think there is any need for alarm. Rut there is need certainly for concern over this problem, Sir. The minister may get up when I sit down and say, well, anyhody who talks about vandalism,increase in crf.me and lack of respect for law and order, lawless general, casual lawlessness. He may be unpatriotic. He may be doing Newfoundland a df.sservice. The minister said that about me a few weeks - 5240

April 25 , 1n75 Tape 1786 (morning) IB-3 AN HONOURARLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir, the minister did when I brought this matter to his attention. The minister said that anybody who would talk about this was doing a disservice to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. The minister indicated, Sir, that the government had no plans, the minister ha~ no plans to deal with this matter, that the minister admitted that he could not state publicly any plans that he might have to cope with the gro~ring incidence in Newfoundland of vandalism.

The minister said that, Sir, attaclr .ed me personPlly, resorted to the old technique of character ass11ssination. Anybody, he said, who talks about this publicly is doing a disservtce to Newfoundland. Yes, Sir. here. T wish I did. AN llONOIJRAJlLE MEMBER: Inaudible, I do not have the clipping MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, that is an indication of the weak-kneed, if you want to call it that, Sir, attitude of the administration and the weakness of the man who is at the head of the provincial Justice Department.

In these days, Sir, of growing crime, sex-linked crimes, drunkenness, disrespect for law and order, gang attacks, attacks on the police, in this da y and age, Sir, you need a strong man at the head of the Justice Department. Jn these days, Sir , when the traditional morality is under constant attac k hy intellectual weirdoes from things that children see, and not only children, adults see on the television screens - I will deal in a little more detaH with that later - that we cannot afford, Sir, to spend our time with legal niceties and coddling prisoners and coddU .ng those who breaJ, the law. 5241

April 25, 1975 Tape no. 1787 Page 1 - mw We have to reaort I am afraid, Mr, Speaker, to strong enforcement of the statutes that are presently on the law books, And I do not mean - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Ia the honourable minister coming over? - I do not mean, Mr.

Speaker, that we should go to the other extreme, I maintain that we have to keep things in their proper perspective, but, Sir, we have heard for the last four or five years or ten years, four or five, I say, years, ve have heard nothing from the Bleedillg Hearts Organization, from the various organizations that represent so-called human rip;hts_, We have not heard anythillg from them, Sir, but the rights of the prisoner, the rights of the accused. We have heard very little, Sir, about the rights of the victims. And things have gotten a little bit out of perspective ill my opinion, Sir.

And what ve need to do, Mr • Speak.er , is to get things back on the rails . What we need to do is get things back in their proper perspective and that does not mean, Sir,tllat we have to come down on the prisoner and the accused like a ton of bricks. But we have to, Sir, start thinking about the rights of the victim. He does have some rights. He is the taxpayer, He is the person who is paying the minister's salary and paying the magistrate's salary and paying the salaries of all the staff and the judges of the courts. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Pardon? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

NEARY: The rights of the victims, the safety and security of the ordinary person of this Province must be protected. They must be allowed, Sir, to walk their streets without any fear of being attacked or having their purse snatched or going down to the stadium as we saw the other day, Sir, I will read the headlines for the honourable 5242

April 23, 1975 Tape no. 1787 Page 2 - mw minister if he does not think there is an increase in crime in this Province - every day you pick up the paper - I will read the minister a few; Night 6f Violence,thia one says, Trail Of Blood At ~he Stadium, The minister says there is nothing to be alarmed about, aoehing to be concerned about, nothing to be concerned about. Bow about this one, Sir? Is the minister concerned about this? Police Headquarters Robbed Of Guns And Drugs, headlines of Police Headquarters, What next? Bow about the headline, Police Assault Case Defendent Charges Fight Was Provoked?

Mlrre Witnesses Heard In Police Assault Case. These are only a few clippings I picked up this lllorning. Vandals Ravage Primary School, Mr. Speak.er, do you know that several months ago there was an item in one of the newspapers, I do not have it here with me, where one of the school boards said that it is costing $1,000 a da.y - MR. HICKMAN: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: No, Sir, a day, $1,000 a day. The minister should go and check it or get his glasses, MR. HICKMAN: MR. NEARY: scl:lools - MR. HICKMAN: MR. NEARY: One thousand dollara a day.

That is $365,000 - Yes, Sir, that i• so for daage done to That i• $350 million - - all over the Province. And here is another one from my friend's district A of Gander, Arson !o Matrasses Causes Evacuation Of Patients and /\ then yesterday we heard about the minister tell us about a line-up to get in jail. MR. HICKMAN: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Now, Sir, the police are doing a good job, They are doing a good job, and we have, so the minister tells us, a high rate of apprehending the criminal and briniins h:lm to j uatice • Well I would not say, Sir, that we have a good reputation of bringing him to juatice.

It takes a long while to get a cu• into court in tbia 5243

April 24, 1975 Tape no. 1787 Page 3 - mw AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.. NEARY: But, Sir, let us aay they are lined up. Let us say that you have to queue up to get into jail, to get into the penitentiary, That is not an argument againat an increaae in vandalism ind crime in this Province, Sir, and lack of reapect for law and order. And it is not an argument against it. We have firat of all to establish the fact that there is an increase and the miniater apparently is argu:lll.g, no, there is not.

It is backed up by the Chief of Police who makes a statement once in a while that, no, there is no increase in vandalism and crime in the city of St. John's. I have seen that in the newspaper.

So I call upon the Minister of Justice now to prove to us that we are wrong, prove to us ordinary taxpayers, ordinary laymen, that we are wrong by producing facts and figures for the past five years showing the indidents of vandalism, casual lawleasness and other forms of crillle, show us the statistics, show us the figures for the last five year • And then if the minister ia proven wrong, then show us his plans and proposals to deal with this rising increaae in violence and crime in this Province. Mr.

Speaker, various people across this Province have ezpressed their own personal views on why they think crillle is on the upswing in Newfoundland. Why they think it is, Sir. MR. HICKMAN: Did you hear about the meeting called in Grand Bank on vandalism? MR. NEARY: Some people, Mr. Speaker, will say that it is due to the fact that we do not have sufficient recreation facilities in the Province. Some people will argue that the courts are too lenient with tha accuaed. Other people will argue that the trouble ia in the home,that the children,espeeially,are not properly disciplined in their home.

Others will argue that there are too many teenagers roaming the streets at night. There are different reaaoua, Sir, put forward by the ordinary people of this Province •f why vandalismand crime is on the increase in Newfoundland. 5244

April 24, 1975 Page 4 - mw Now, Sir, let us deal first of all with the courts, the insinuation, I suppose, the accusation that has been made by a number of people that the courts are too leninet. Well, Mr. Speaker, f~om my advantage point, froa my observation, Sir, there is a element of truth in this. I do not know why the courts are too lenient, whether they have been brainwashed by the Bleeding Hearts or whether they have been carried away by the crusade of the various Human Rights societies or whether they are being swayed by the psychiatrists.

Whatever the reason, Sir, or whether different magistrates in different parts of the Province have different punishment to suit different cr:IJlles, whatever the reason, Sir, from my· advlll!tSlte point the courts have been too lenient with the accused. And Mr. Speaker, I will tell you aoaething else that concerns me very auch and I want the minister to pay particular attention to this. There seeas to be a law for the rich and a law for the poor in this Province and the sentences are not always the same for the same charge, identical charges.

The sentences are not always the same, And now, Sir, whether or not this is because different maRistrates have different views, have different feelings on sentencing or not, but it ia very discouraging, Sir, for the ordinary person, 'fhe ordinary person, compared to the wealthy person, the well-to-do person is not getting a fair shake in ay opinion.

I know a case, Sir, recently, I know a case recently where a certain well-known gentleman was picked up for imparied driving and right directly behind hiJR was another gentleman, an ordinary person like myself, picked up for iJD.paried driving, charged and brought before two separate magistrates and the sentencing was as far apart, they were miles apart, why? The 5245

April 25, 1975 Tape 1788 (Morning) PK - 1 well known gentleman got off with a very light sentence, while the poor old ordinary fellow had to pay the price. Why? AN HON. MEMBER: The same judge, MR, NEARY: No, Sir, two different magistrates. I want the minister to explain it, there may be justification for it, I do not know. I am not accusing anybody, But, Sir, - , 1 " MR. HICKMAN: If you are not Pccusing anyone you are coming dangerouslv close •.• MR. NEARY: I certainly am because I, Sir, make no bones about the fact that I think there is a law for the rich and a law for the poor. AN HON, MEMBER: That is bull.

MR, NEARY: It is not bull. A poor old fellow, Sir, that hae not got any connections, who is not well known he will get the boots put to him everytime. And the poor little ordinary fellow who is out paying his taxes, trying to get along in the world conanits the same offence he will get the boots put to him. AN HON. MEMBER: You got off. You got off, boy. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, as far as recreation is concerned, if that is a reason, some people say that it is, then, Sir, I would submit that what we should be doing in this House iRstead of wasting our time on some of the things that we have been discussing in this session of the House that we should be talking about building more recreational facilities. Mr. Speaker, now let me give the House an example of what I am driving at.

Down here at Argentia, Sir, is one of the most beautiful recreational complexes on the East Coast, I suppose, of Canada, it is laying there idle on the North side of the Argentia Naval Base or the Argentia Military Base, laying thete idle. The government a few years ago, Sir, when the one down at Torbay became idle, as my honourable friend knows, I think he goes down there playing handball or volleyball or swimming - the government took over that recreation centre!placed it under the jurisdiction of the Department of Rehabilitation and Recreation, and under Mr. Graham Snow's direction they run the centre.

And I believe we did the sa.J11e 5246

April 25, 1975 Tape 1788 (Morning) PK - 2 thing in Stephenville, where you had a great recreational complex. But down here in Argentia, Sir, there is a beautiful building, housing, believe it or not,three basketball courts, three handball courts, there is room enough to put an ice surface inside of it. A magnificent structure, A magnificent complex. It is going to waste. And yet we hear people say that the reason we have this rising tide of vandalism and crime in our P~ovince is because we do not have enough recreational facilities. AN HON. MEMBER: It is still under the control of the Americans. MR.

NEARY: It is still under the control of the Americans, Sir, but the Americans as the minister knows have consolidated the Base and this building that I am speaking of is on the North side and has no connection whatsoever with the operation of the Base at the present time. And, you know, Mr. Speaker, there is a swimming pool in it, I forgot to mention that. A magnificent Olympic size swimming pool, heated. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMRER: HR. NEARY: water in it. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: years. AN IION. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: Where? In Argentia. Inaudible. No, Sir, it is empty.

There is not a drop of Inaudible. There has not been a drop of water in it for Inaudible. I wish the Member for Harbour Grace would dive in while the pool is empty. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible, MR. NEARY: But, Sir, here is a golden opportunity if the minister concedes this is one of the reasons, and I am inclined to think that•this cou.ld be~possibl:,lone of the minor reasons why - our teenagers are roaming aroud the streets with nothing to do. That could serve that whole area. 5247

April 25, 197 5 AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: Tape 1788 (Morning) Inaudible. Could serve that whole area of - Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Sir, the - let me say, Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER (DUNPHY): Order, please! PK - 3 MR. NEARY: - let me give credit to the Development Association in that area. They have written the Minister of Recreation asking the minister to start negotiations with the Americans to take over that building.

But, I submit, Sir, to ·.this honourable House that that builtling not be turned ov.er to any individual association, as go.od as they are, or individual group, or any group of individuals;that the building be taken over by the minister's department and operated the same as the complex at Torbay and at Stephenville, operated as a provincial recreation centre. And that could, Sir, service the whole area of Freshwater, Southeast, Placentia, Jerseyside, Dunville, and even right down the Cape Shore, Sir, and even Fox Harbour.

A magnificent opportunity, one that the government would be foolish to let pass through their fingers. Because the day will come, Sir, if something is not done about it, when that building will meet the fate of other buildings on the Argentia Base, It will be demolished, torn down. Now that is another reason, Sir, why people think there is an increase in crime in this Province. There are other people, Mr. Speaker, who seem to think that the cause of the decline in morals, the new morality which is really the old immorality,that the chief reason for this i E violence on the television screen.

Sir, I would say there are probably more people think this is the reason than in the other categories. And the Tory Member of Parliament for St. John's East thinks so, and I must say, Sir, I have to go along with this. Mr. Speaker, I will show our Provincial Minister of Justice here what the Attorney General of Ontario says about this matter of violence on the television screen, and I would like to get the views of our own minister on this. Attorney General John Clement was speaking to the Ad and Sales Club recently in Toronto - 5248

April 25, 1975 Tape 1788 (Morning) PK - 4 AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Yes he is a P.C. Attorney General. He says, II turn off violence. Violence presented as entertainment is out of proportion to violence in real life, Attorney General John Clement told ASC at its March 25 luncheon. Studies showed that by age fifteen an average child exposed to television will have witnessed " more than 13,000 murders. Mr.

Speaker, let the members stop and think about that for a moment, the average child, my four young children before they reach the age of fifteen will have witnessed on television 13,000 murders, Does the minister not think that that is going to have a drastic effect on the child's mind? There are more murders,so the Attorney General of Ontario says,in a few hours of prime time television than there are in all of Toronto in a whole year. Just think about it. Sit down for a couple of hours in front of your television screen and you can watch more murders than take place in the City of Toronto in a whole year.

Heroes and villians alike are run down by cars, shot in the head, stabbed, pushed over cliffs, and thrown out of helicopters. Am I making this up, Mr. Speaker? Am I? Does Your Honour watch television? AN HON. MEMBER: He cannot afford one. MR. NEARY: And today you can watch all this in living colour. Does the minister himself watch television? What is the minister~s reaction to this matter of violence on the television screens? I have never yet, Sir, in my lifetime heard the minister state either inside of this House or outside of the House what his views are on this subject. And, Mr.

Speaker, is it any wonder then, is it any wonder, Sir, that people link the increase in vandalism and crime with the violence that is seen on the television screea1 I 'think the relationship, Mr. Speaker, is a very substantial one. MR. EVANS: :MR. NEARY: Come on Billy Graham,you are doing fine. I am comlng, Mr. Speaker, to a gentleman that I admire very much to talk about how crime can be stopped, Garner Ted Armstrong, Ambassador College. 5249

April 25, 1975 Tape No.1789 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: What we have to do is to develop, not censorship, Sir, the minister will get up and say, well what do you want us to do, censor the television stations - MR. HICKMAN: It has to be done by parliament. MR. NEARY: Well I do not care who, but the minister certainly has it in his power to resister protests with the Goveent of Canada, the Parliament of Canada 1and the minister has not done that. MR. ROWE: They take credit for getting money out of Ottawa. MR.

NEARY: They take.credit, Sir, for getting - they tried to horn in on the credit, the good things Ottawa do, but they never take the initiative themselves. MR. HICKMAN: Try and stop them from passing ••• MR. NEARY: And Mr, Speaker, I am not one who is recommending censureship, I think what we should do, Sir, is develop some good taste on our television screens. Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that if every Canadian, if every Newfoundland, Sir, who feels this strongly, feels as strongly as I do about violence on the - (Could I have a glass of water'

Z) MR. EVANS: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: - about violence on the television screen, Sir, that they shut off their sets and the advertisers, the people who sponsor the commercials and the television stations themselves, will soon get the message if the television sets are shut off. MR. EVANS: What are they going to do to - MR. NEARY: Certainly, Sir, if we could not rectify this situation, in my opinion if we took - the drastic measures that are necessary by shutting off the television sets, violence would certainly be toned down on the television screen, And! firmly believe, Mr.

Speaker, that it is up to the parents to exert more control over the programmes that their children watch. I am not blaming the Minister of Justice, Sir, The fault lies 1I would say, in the home. The home, Mr. Speaker, the home, the home is the breeding ground for criminals. Oh ha, ha, ha, ha, very funny! I will bet, Sir, the Member for St. John's East, knows where his children are twenty-four hours a day, I keep a close watch on mine when I am home. You will find out, 5250

April 25, 1975 Tape No. 1789 NM - 2 Mr. Speaker, that a lot of the trouble, a lot of people, a lot of children who develop into criminals, you can trace it right back to the home. And so the only way, Sir, that I can see that we can tone down this matter is to take drastic steps and the parents themselves will have to watch over this. Mr, Speaker, not a sound, not a word, not a - what is it the Minister of Fisheries says1 not a jot, not a tittle, not a murmur, not a whisper out of our Minister of Justice.

The present government, Sir, have failed to face up to action on this front as they have failed to face up with the other real problems of the people of this Province, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: It is a typical example, Mr. Speaker, of the present government's ostrich, head-in-the-sand attitude, to anything concerning the real needs or security of the ordinary people of this Province. Mr.

Speaker, I have here in my hand a little booklet, titled Crime Can Be Stopped - Here Is How, SJ1d I would recommend this booklet to our own Minister of Justice and to any other member of this honourable House who is interested in this subject, Sir. Crime Can Be Stopped - Here Is How, Ambassador College Research Department. These are some of the suggestions and ideas, Sir, that have been put forward by Amabassador College after careful reearch through their spokesman, Garner Ted Armstrong.

They say, Sir, that in connection with the worldwide crime picture,that crime is not limited within the United States 1 each nation has its own unique problems with crime.And then they go on and examine the problems in the various nations around the world, And then they go on and talk about the reasons for increased vandalism and crime and lawlessness and lack of respect for law and order. The simple reason for all the violence is plain, so we are told, Human nature, that is what they say, Sir, human nature, uncurbed human nature, human nature allowed to run rampant.

Crime stems from lack of character, not a lack of money. When people are allowed to think,and even taught to think like criminals, the end result is quite obvious, Sir, 5251

April 25, 1975 Tape No. 1789 NM - 3 people will become criminals.And that is what we are learning today from the television. They go on then, Sir, and talk about how you can protect yourself against crime and here is a very important item in this little booklet, respect for your police, see what they say about that, Sir. The first thing every citizen needs is a healthy respect for constituted authority and for the local police. Too many people regard policemen as their enemy and I am sure if my honourable friend could stand in my place on the floor of the House of Assembly, would concur with,that statement.

That statement was made after very careful research. Then they go on to say that the policemen should be one of your greatest friends because he is protecting you against property damage and against life iaself or protecting your life itself. A lot of people are getting fed up, so they say, too many Americans view their policeaen as their enemies. They recoil at the sight of that black and white or marked automobile with the red light and siren. They are suspicious that the police are somehow out to get them, out to hamper or impede the average citizen in his normal pursuits of life.

Well the Minister of Justice may say>is that happening in Newfoundland1 I would submit, Sir, that it is. That we are seeing more attacks on the RCMP trying to discharge their duty, and we are seeing more abuse and more attacks members of the Newfoundland Constabularly in the normal pursuits o.f their duty. But is the policeman, Sir, an enemy? Not so, says this little booklet. After all, if you are all that innocent, if people are that innocent, what do they have to hide? What do you have to fear from the police? We, the people, are paying the police to protect our properties and to protect our lives.

So why should they be considered by anybody to be enemies. They are our friends. Do innocent citizens merely strolling through the park in pursuit of a day's fun in the sun, do they have to be afraid of the policeman? And the answer is no, Sir. Then it boils down to what I referred to a few moments ago as the discipline in the home. See what they say about that. And the Member for St. John's East let out a little snicker as if it was something to 5252

April 25, 1975 Tape No. 1789 NM - 4 be laughed at, something funny, something to be jeered at. Here is what Ambassador College says, 'know where your children are at all times. MR. EVANS: Inaudible, MR., NEARY: That is good, sound advice. This common-sense rule is broken all too often. Its iviolatioli is the cause of lbay a heartbreaking situation. Infants and young children at home should be within an eyeshot of the parent. Take your children to school. Arrange to meet the!Jl when school is out. Do not allow y9ur children to roam the streets by themselves.

Does the ho110Urable the Preinier agree with that advii:e given by Gamer T.ed Armstrong, Ambassador College - AN HON. MEMBER: Billy Graham. MR.NEARY: - after very careful research. Teach 5253

April 25, 1975. Tape 1790 RH - 1 children not to go to strangers ar to report and to report suspicious persons to you. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible, MR. NEARY: Well, probably he does. I do not know but, Sir, it is certainly very sound advice and I would recounnend that booklet to anybody to read, Sir, especially the Minister of Justice who has failed miserably to come to grips with this great problem in our society, Sir, this problem of vandalism and rising crime in this Province. We should deal with it now, Sir.

It may not be a matter to be alarmed about at the moment but it is ~omething to be concerned about, Sir, the wilful destruction of property over the past five years and the minister should outline his programme to deal with this deteriorating situation of organized crime and casual lawlessness before it becomes a way of life in this Province. Mr. Speaker, we hear reports daily, Sir, about - and I do not want to pinpoint the areas, if the Minister of Justice is doing his job he could almost figure out where I am talking about, There are four or five or six troubled spots right here in the city of St.

John's where you have groups, where you have organizations, where the police are having a very trying time enforcing law and order. Now, Mr. Speaker, having dealt with that particular matter I want to come to the matter of strikes and lockouts and productivity. Sir, some time ago I put a resolution on the Order Paper dealing with this particular subject. I know, Sir, we cannot discuss that motion at the moment but I would like to draw honourable members attention to it because I think, Sir, it deserves the consideration and the - AN HONOURABLE ME}IBER: Inaudible. MR.

NEARY: That is strikes, illegal and legal, work stoppages, work interruptions. We cannot discuss the motion because the motion is on the Order Paper but I want to draw it to members' attention because it does warrant merit and consideration of honourable members in this House and my suggestion to the honourable the Premier both 5254

April 25, 1975. Tape 1790 RR - 2 inside and outside of this House to establish a productivity council bringing together representatives of labour and management and other sectors of our society to deal with this matter of productivity that we are hearing so much about these days. The answer does not lie in the kind of statements that Mr. Mercer made the other day to the Board of Trade where he polarized the labour movement. What you have to do, Sir, is put the blaJ11e where it belongs. _MR. HICKMAN: Row about your spokesman1 MR. NEARY: What spokesman1 MR. HICKMAN: The Member for Twillingate. MR. NEARY.: Ah!

Sir, I am the spokesman on labour and productivity on this side of the honourable House and the Member for Twillingate was merely echoing sentiments that I had already expressed in this resolution. AN HONOURABLE MEMJ3ER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, he was not. Mr. Speaker, I think that the sooner - and the honourable the Premier, Sir. the honourable the Premier has an appearance of being interested in this matter. Maybe the honourable Minister of Justice is not. He has his eye on the bench and that is all he can think about these days.

But, Sir, before this session adjournes, in my opinion, it would be a very, it would be a very smart and wise thing indeed for this honourable House to set up a select collUllittee of the House - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: - to look into this matter, Sir, of productivity in the Province and work stoppages, both legal and illegal- not lay the blame on everybody- bring together the representatives of labour and manage­ ment and other sectors of our society to deal with this very serious problem. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I just want to interrupt the honourable member and tell him that he has approximately two minutes left to finish. 5255

April 25, 1975. Tape 1790 RH - 3 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the other matter that I wanted to deal with, and I will probably have to leave it to one of my colleagues,is the high cost of living, Sir. We have dealt with everything in this session of the House except vandalism and crime, record unemployment, high cost of living. We have dealt with everything else, Sir, except the things that affect the ordinary lives of our ordinary Newfoundlander, the everyday lives of our ordinary Newfoundland. Mr.

Speaker, back last Fall we have a Food Prices Review Board Report submitted to this Province that made ten recommendations, eight of which fall under provincial jurisdiction, not one iota, not one even teeny weeny bit of action has been taken by the administration. They have chose to ignore the report after all the bellyaching we heard about the Minister of Provincial Affairs wanting that report from Beryl Plumtre,.

This is another matter, Sir, that demands clarification and explanation by the minister and I hope that the honourable the Premier will get into this debate on the amendment and tell us what his administration is going to do about these three major problems that I have dealt briefly with this morning with the limited time that I have at my disposal, namely, Mr. Speaker, increasing vandalism and lawlessness, record unemployment and the high cost of living in this Province. 5256

Tape 1791 (morning) IB-1 MP.. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Justice. "!R. Hir.KMAN: Mr. Speaker, may I refer rather briefly to some of the nonfactual statements that have just emanated from the honourable the Msmher for Rell Island, statements suggesting that vandalism and crime is daily on the upsurge in this Province, statements that are designed t0 indicate to the people of Newfoundland that this is indeed an unsafe part of North America in which one should live. '1'R. NF.ARY : I did not say that, but it will become that if you let it become that. MR. SPF.AKER: Order, please! MR.

RICKMAN: These statements, Mr. Speaker, statements such as that crime is on the upsurge daily, daily in Newfoundland. Let me read first, n r. Speaker, the results of the McReynolds report prepared, completed only a few months ago for the federal and provincial, the Government of Canada and the Government of Newfoundland. Here is the way they start out. Mr. McReynolds had access to all of the records, crime, vandalism in Newfoundland and Canada, all the statistics of the Solicitor­ General's department at his disposal. He and his staff spent several months in the Province. Here is what he says in starting out.

"It is with some humility that correctional experts from Mainland Canada analyzed Newfoundland's correction system, which not only has one of the lowest incarceration rates in the nation, but also in the world. The Canadian average for person sentenced to jail in 1970 was 2.4 per cent of

summary and indictable offences while Newfoundlands was n.94 per cent. The percentage of convicted persons going to penitentiary was O.05 per cent as compared to the Canadian average of 0.14 per cent . 11 Furthermore the number of convicted person on probation was hi gher than the national average, 1.8 per cent compared to 1.2 per cent al though many were unsuperv1 sed." Now, I did not dream this up. I did not get these facts and say, see if you can come up with a set of statistics which will help me in an argument. This happens to be the truth. This was just re.cen tly fin1 shed. Then we had in the City of St. John's - mind you, it has 5257

April 25, 1975 Tape 17q1 (morning) Jn-2 been prifflarily the City of St. John's that we have · heard the talk of vandalism. So, I had~ ffleetin g, a very good meeting with th~ St. J ohn's M.!' .A. 's and the St. John's Ci ty Council late last year, and they were presented with figures, facts which they were delighted to receive and which seemed to indicate that things were not as bad as people would wish them to be. So, I asked for the report on vandalism up to that poin t in 1973 and comparing 1972, l973 and 197l1 now here are the figures. Now, remember in every cit y in Nort h America vandalit<m is increasin8.

In some the graphs are going way up. In Victoria - t saw the r.eports to Victoria or Vancouver recently and the percentage -of in cruse was very frightening. From January to the end of October, 1972 - these were the comparative figures that we had to use for that meetin r, with the City Council - there were 787 reoorted acts of vanda l ism and malicious damage .

Now, remember vandalism was the whole gamut from breaking a window in a school, from pulling up somebody's carrots, from walking over a flower bed, from ringing a doorbe l l and running away to smashing several windows on Water Street. 1\.11 mali .cious damage falls in the category of vandalism, nnd they are mainly all reportec! . In fact, t he minor ones seem to be the majority of the reports. That was 787. 5258

April 25, 1975 Tape no. 1792 Page 1 - mw In 1973 that increased from 787 to 817. Now in 1974 this was the year of the geat increase in vandalism according to the rumourmongers and those who wanted to stir up fear and apprehension in the people, the citizens. Was there an increase? Was there an increase over 1973? No. Lo and behold there was a decrease, 768. That was not only below 1973 but it was bwlow 1972- not very much. I give the House these figures and theae facts simply to indicate that in an era any city is growing, as is St.

John's,vandaliS111 and lllalacioua damage are increasing right throughout the world. But for some strange reason St. John's did not increase. Now if we can only hold the increase in this city to something below thenational average we 111&y be accomplishing sanething. But we managed to do this. This year, I cannot predict what the figures are going to be for 1975, but whatever they are I will suggest that they still will be the lowest of any c011parable city in Canada. Now, Mr.

Speaker, this does not mean, and I do not want the press to iDterpret or any honourable 11.eaber of this Houae to interpret that we have not got vandalism in the city of St. Joha's or that we have not got some in the Province of Newfoundland. Of course we have. Anybody would be silly to say that we have not got it. How clo you deal with vandalism? What do you do? And bear in mind that most of the acts of vandalism, a very high percentage of them are conmitted by~ very small percentage, a very 11111all percentage of people who are juveniles.

A high percentage, a very high percentage of the acts of vandaliSII. are committed by a very !1111.all number of individuals who are juveniles. Do we use the JohnBirch appreaoh, the Hon. Member for Bell Island, or do we show some compassion? Do we refuse to coddle these young people and follow the recommendation of the Hon. Member for Bell Island - MR. NEARY: What was the recommendation? MR. HICKMAN: That we cannot - these are the words cannot coddle prisoners or those who break the law. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). 5259 that we

April 25, 1975 Tape no. 1792 Page 2 - mw MR. HICKMAN: The words were, cannot coddle prisoners or those who break the law. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. HICKMAN: My view, Mr. Speaker, is that when young people are in conflict with the law the first responsibility of the state upon apprehending these young people is to try and use every rehabilitative approach known to man short of incarceration.

If that does not work,and regrettably at times it does not, if that does not work, then un-£ortunately and regrettably some of these young people do find themselves in institutions such as the Boys Rome at Whitbourne and the institution down at Pleasantville, Mr. Speaker, I think this is a fact which will indicate to this Hol18e and to the people of Newfoundland that the Moores Adllinistration is indeed very conscious of its responsibilities insofar as the administration of justice is concerned.

The first budget that was brought down by the Moores Administration three years ago, alll!Ost just three years ago, voted $9,002,200 to the administration of justice in Newfoundland. Three years later the vote this year is $20,155,900. 5260

April 25, 1975. Tape 1793 RH - 1 Some of these dollars may be inflation but most of them, Mr. Speaker, are new dollars, additional dollars. We are paying, for instance, will pay this year, Mr. Speaker, $9 million for police protection, $9 million for police protection. I would be bold enough to suggest, Mr. Speaker, that there is not a Province in Canada spending that much money on a per capita basis for police protection. Maybe, Mr.

Speaker, it is because we do have strong police forces, two strong police forces, maybe it is because we are prepared to spend some money on policing, that the crime rate in Newfoundland still continues to be away below that in other parts of Canada and in other parts of North America. Now, Mr. Speaker, I wanted to give the House some facts as to the number of policemen we have in the Province. The city of St. John's is policed by the Newfoundland Constabulary with a force of 215 men. The per capita police in the city of St. John's is 2.02 compared to the national average of 1.07, 2.02 for the city of St.

John's to 1.07 for the rest of Canada. So, one could hardly argue that we are not providing an adequate number of police for the city of St. John's. The rest of the Province is policed by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, There are 582 officers and men. This means, Mr. Speaker, that we have in Newfoundland approximately, all told, approximately 800 policemen for 500,000 people. I say that we have in this Province two strong,well-equipped, dedicated police forces. This year, and I know there are arguments, before I get - there are arguments galore, I have heard arguments that the city of St.

John's should take over the Newfoundland Constabulary. Maybe they should. I am one of those who do not subscribe to that view. But those people who argue that way will point out that the city of Halifax, the city of Sydney and Moncton, St. John, Fredericton, indeed practically all C-e:nadian cities with the exception of part of Vancouver who use the R.C.M.P., these cities are policed by city police forces. This relieves the Province of a great deal of financial responsibility. Now, the financing of it is attractive. I heard a suggestion that if the St. John's City Council 5261

April 25, 1975. Tape 1793 RR - 2 too~ over the Newfou.ndland Constabulary that it meant collected taxes from the Province. that this would not be of any grea •t financial con­ seque.11ce to the city of St. John's. That ia not the way it works. That is not the way that the administration of justice · in the other Provinces works at all, where the cities are responsible foy . their own police. There 1 is no tax paid by the crown in the right of Nova Scotia to the city of Halifax. There is no .grant, to. my knowledge, give:n to that city by the go,rermnent.

Indeed, the re.verse situation pei-vails, say, in that :province which is a good compar1-son to make. They have got in the city of Ha;lifax a provfnd.al court build-mg that would make any Attorney General from the A~lantie Provinces drool with envy. It ~ .a building that if one wanted to put 1.t up in the. city of St. Jobil's today,where we do need a new provincial bui.i.ding courthouse, it would probably cost in the v:l:cinity of, by today I s standards, of. say, $20 mill.ion o.r $30 million; The one 5262 ...

ApriJ 7.'i, 1o75 Tape 1794 (morning) IB-1 that "'"S hu:llt 1n Hal1fax a few years ago, I discovered the other day that the total contribution by the Province of Nova Scotia was $250,000, and $Sn,nnn from the federal government. Who P'aicl for the rest? The ri ty of Halifax. It accommodates the provincial courts, the supreme court, the appellate court, the federal court. So, Mr.

Speaker, you know, those who advocate in City Hall that they should take over the police force and the Newfoundland Constabulary and assume responsibility for their salaries of - well, the salaries alone are approximately $3 million plus the other costs. I do not think really they understand the cost factor that is involved. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. 1-'R. HICKMAN: That is not the reason why I believe that the Newfoundland Constabulary should remain a provincial force. As Attorney-General of the Province I have responsibility under the BNA Act for the enforcement of law and order throughout the Province.

Outside of St. John's this is done through the P.C.M.P. Within St. John's it is done by the Newfoundland Constabulary. Now, I could,under the act, under the British North America Act and following the pattern of all the other Attorney-Generals say to the C1ty of St. John's, you are going to pay the total shot. But under the act I must still maintain control. I could do that. It is done in other places. It is done in other cities. But, this would not J:,e>in my opinion, financialiy responsible ·: We would bankrupt the City of St. John's. There is no question about that at all.

It would be very discriminatory against the people who live in this area because we do pay the cost of policing the entire Province. So, Mr. Speaker, all I implore people who talk about policing and talk about the Newfoundland Constabulary is to use a bit of common sense and to take a look at cost, to take a look at what the Province is indeed contributing this year for instance to the policing of the capital city.

There is not only the cost of the Newfoundland Constabulary, the salaries and the operating costs which are in excess of $3 million, but on top of that this year we are starting for the first time - I am very proud of this - construction of the first police headquarters ever built 5263

April 25, 1975 Tape 1794 (morning) for the Newfoundland Constabulary since that force was estahl1shed in Newfoundland more than a century ago. SOME HONOURABLE ME'MBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. HICK:t,1.AN: I find it inconceivable that - but can I fight the St. John's City Council when they unanimously say we want to take over all of this? MR. NEARY: They want the money to do it,too. MR. HICK-r,fAN: Rut they do not get the money to do it.. The other Canadian cities do not get the money to d~ it. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: They expect to get the money to do it. MR.

HICKMAN: Nor do they have the final control over the - s ay IF- 2 the city police force of the City of Fredericton is vested in the Attorney­ General of New Brunswick even though the Fredericton council pays the cost. I hardly - I find it inconceivable to accept the fact that the City of St. John's wants to do that. But, I have never heard fro m them officially, and until I do I am assuming that they are sensible people, that they are sane people, that they want the Newfoundland Constabulary to continue with the responsibility for policing their city. I can assure the people of the City of St •.

Tohn 's that I am not prepared to abdicate that responsibility to the City Council at this time. Now, :t,!r. Speaker, the question of sentencing in the courts: The honourable the Member for Bell Island made a very disturbing statement. He talked about a law for the rich and a law for the poor. If that law exists - and I have had more than twenty-five years in the pract1ce of law, and I have not seen any evidence of it in this Province - MR. ROUSSEAU: I got enough traffic tickets this Winter to prove it . 5264

April 25, 1975. MR. HICKMAN: Tape 1795 RH - 1 The courts will continue and must continue to be totally independent. I have not the right,and even if I did I would not exercise it,to tell a magistrate as to what kind of a sentence he should impose. When the crown appears before a court, the crown has no greater rights than the accused,nor should they. Indeed, that would be a totalitarian state, if I through a crown prosecutor had greater rights than the accused, if I had the right to suggest, to tell a magistrate what a sentence must be.

The only responsibility, the only right that the crown has through the crown prosecutors is to draw to the attention of the courts following a conviction the nature of the crime and the seriousness of the offense and indicate the kind of sentence that the crown prosecutor feels is appropriate or to respond to a plea in mitigation of sentence by counsel for the accused and this we have done~ This we have done.

It became apparent last year that more severe sentences for convictions for :iJ!ipaired driving sbould be contemplated by our eourts and the crown prosecutors were instructed by me to ask,to bring to the attention of the courts the seriousness of that kind of offense. There is no doubt in my mind at all that the sentences that are presently being imposed upon those convicted of impaired driving are most appropriate and in keeping with the obligation to protect society. The conviction rate for impaired driving, Mr.

Speaker, in Newfoundland is increasing very, very rapidly and I will give these figures and then conclude this afternoon. In 1969 there were 1,033 motorists convicted in Newfoundland of the offense of impaired driving. In 1970, 1,189; in 1971, 1,487; in 1972, remember now, that is when I became Minister of Justice under this administration, you know, the man who coddles those who break the law, 1972, 2,348; 1973, 2,810, 2,810; in 1974, 3,870--3,870.

If the present trend continues of convictions for impaired driving in Newfoundland, in 1975 there will be at least 4,900 motorists convicted in Newfoundland this year of impaired driving. We have also in the laet few months resisted, the crown prosecutors have, the granting of restricted driver's licenses to motorists convicted 5265

April 25, 1975. Tape 1795 RI! - 2 of impaired driving and very few have been issued since the crown has taken this position. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I wonder would the honourable minister like to call it one o'clock. MR. RICKMAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: It now being one of the clock, I leave the Chair until three of the clock this afternoon. 5266

April 15, 197 5 Tape 1796 (Afternoon) The House resumed at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Before I recognize the Hon. Minister of Justice who adjourned the debate, I would like to welcome to the galleries today some twenty Grade XI students PK - l from the Centennial High School at Gander Bay with their teacher, Mr. Fraser Lush and Mr. Fisher . On behalf of all members of the Legislature I welcome you to the galleries today, and trust that your visit here is most interesting and most informative. The Hon. Minister of Justice. MR. T. A. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker,when we adjourned for lunch I was answering some of the allegations made by the Hon. Member for Bell Island concerning crime and vandalism as alledgedly occur in the Province of Newfoundland. And whilst I have no intention of repeating the things I said this morning I do draw to the House's attention that in 1973 there was again the usual spring controversy over vandalism in St. John's, and the City Council convened a great conference to prepare a report on vandalism.

The conference was held at City Hall,attended by very competent people in the field of law enforcement, and many, many ordinary citizens from all walks of life. And they met of all of April 2, 1973. And pursuant to their terms of reference there was a report prepared by Dr. James M. Hildegarde of the Psychology Department of Memorial University. And I recall the conference, I was there for part of it, and nobody could quite understand why the conference was called. Their finding was that St. John's appears to have a lower overall crime rate than most cities its ~ize on the Continent.

And they kept looking for it, and they said,yes there obviously is a sort of vandalism of break and entry that you will find in any city, but the rate is so favourable compared to other areas that we do not quite know what it is we are suppose to reco111D1end. So they prepared a long report. They dealt with the responsibilities of the family, and the responsibility of the schools, the recreational facilities, and the need for more recreational facilities aimed at the young. And they pointed out that in many areas where you have recreational facilities there seem to be a higher rate of vandalism. 5267

April 25, 1975 Tape 1796 (Afternoon) PK - 2 But, Mr. Speaker, where I do take strong issue with the Hon. Member for Bell Island is with respect to his comments concerning the attitude, the new morality he calls it, the attitude of Newfoundlanders in their respect for law and order. I say without any hesistancy and without any fear of contradiction that the 520,000 souls living in the Province of Newfoundland have as much if not more respect for law and order, for the law enforcement agencies than you will find anywhere in North America. That is why, Mr.

Speaker, that fortunately to date we have escaped any organized crime in Newfoundland. MR. NEARY: What about that big drug case? MR. HICKMAN: That is why, Mr. Speaker, that great drug.or organized crime as it relates to drug trafficking- 11lich incidentally the Province has no jurisdiction, has not even the right of consultation on, which I think is wrong, but we have not -- have not got that kind of problem that they have in British Columbia and Ontario and Quebec and maybe in the Prairie Provinces. We have not seen this kind of organized crime.

And this is why I would like to spread the word that we have nearly 800 police officers in Newfoundland, that the Province of Newfoundland is a rather difficult place to escape from quickly if anyone should decide to become involved in that kind of nefarious activity. ~- NEARY: What about the one they caught last week for ••• 5268

April 25, 1975 Tape No. 1797 NM - 1 MR. HICDIAN: In the hope, in the hope, Mr. Speaker, and I never comment, nor has anybody in this House the right to comment,in fact it is in contempt of court and it is in contempt of the rules of this House to ever co11DDent on a case that is still before the courts. MR. NEAI.Y: No it is not. MR. BICKMAN: Anyone who does that is aiding and abetting the accused. Because it provides, it provides, it provides - MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) MR. HICKMAN: It provides, Mr.

Speaker, a defence to an accused person, who has a perfect right to stand in court then and say, my right to a f•ir trial has been prejudiced. And they have done it, done it successfully. The honourable gentleman from Placentia West, the honourable gentleman from St. John's East, honourable and learned gentlemen, I am sure would agree with me that if they were defending a client today who has not yet come to trial that there is nothing they would like more than to hear somebody in this House start commenting on the case.

Because obviously they have got the grounds to move for a dismissal because there has been undue publicity and unfair comment made and it has happened. SOME HON. MEMBERI: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: You just brought it up. MR. HICKMAN: I did not bring it up. The honourable gentleman raised - MR. NEARY: You did. (Inaudible) MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. HICKMAN: And what I am saying, Mr.

Speaker, is that so far in this Province, because we have maintained two efficient police forces, and beca9se we are prepared to spend $20 million on the administration of justice, that we have managed to maintain law and order without adopting the John Birch attitude of the honourable the Member for Bell Island. far to the right. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, that is unparliamentary. MR. HICKMAN: I just cannot get that far to the right. I cannot get that MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The honourable members to 5269

April 25, 1975 Tape No, 1797 NM - 2 my right may not agree with some of the things that the honourable minister is saying. The Chair feels that what the honourable minister is saying is not unparliamentary, while honourable members to my right may disagree with what he is saying, nevertheless the honourable minister does have the right to be heard in silence, AN RON, MEMBER; The Speaker is trying to learn something. MR, HICKMAN: Who but the honourable gentleman from Bell Island says that the traditional morality of Newfoundland is under constant attack? Who else says it? Who says it?

The honourable gentleman said it. I wrote it down. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, I did not. MR. HICKMAN: it is? Traditional morality is under constant attack. Who says MR, NEARY: I did not. MR. HICKMAN: Who says that these young people up here are just as moral and have just as much respect for law and order - MR. NEARY: Point of order, point of order - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: Point of order! Mr.

Speaker, if the Minister of Justice is going to quote me, Sir, he has to quote me correctly or not quote me at all, The minister is deliberately misleading the House, Sir, and I would submit he is out of order, MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! First of all I must aay to the honourable Member for Bell Island to accuse a member of deliberately misleading the House is certainly unparliamentary and first of all I would ask the honourable Member for Bell Island to withdraw that statement. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, the minister may not be deliberately misleading the House, but he is misleading the House, Sir, With that kind of a statement, Sir, and if deliberate - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair asked the honourable member to withdraw the statement, not make a speech with regards to same, 5270

April 25, 1975 Tape No. 1797 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: I withdraw the statement, Mr. Speaker, but - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! It is also customary when the Speaker rises that the honourable member speaking takes his seat. With regards to what was quoted by the honourable Mintster of Justice, as referred to as being said by the honourable Member for Bell Island, is probably a difference of opinion between two honourable members as to exactly what was said. MR. NEARY: It is guttersnipe politics, Sir, of the - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR, HICKMAN: I say without fear of contradiction, Mr.

Speaker, that the traditional morality of this Province is not under constant attack, I say it. MR. NEARY: That is differut. MR. HICKMAN: And I take issue with the honourable gentleman and here •re his words, traditional morality is under constant attack. MR, NEARY: No. No, MR. HICKMAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Point of order, Mr. Speaker, a point of order­ MR, SPEAKER: Order, please! MR, NEARY: The minister, Sir, is misquoting me, and I would submit that Your Honour has to rule the minister out of order or send for the tapes. Send for the tapes. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

It is a difference of opinion between what was said by two honourable members. The Chair has no intention of going for tapes for everything that any honourable member disagrees with what was said, MR, NEARY: Then he can quote ••. MR, HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, let us deal with the honourable gentleman's other philosophy that we cannot coddle prisioners ~ MR. NEARY: No. That is right. MR. HiCCKMAN: - and those who break the law. Now what precisely is the honourable 8entleman talking about? Does he disagree with my philosophy? 5271

April 25, 1975 Tape No, 1797 NM - 4 IIR.. NURY: You have none. MR. llICKMAN: Does he di1agree with the pllilpsophy of this adudnistration? ·MR. NEAa,Y: They have none. MR. HICKMAN: .When we initiated the first correctional study ever _ undertaken in this Province? MR.NEARY: No, Sir, that is not true. MR, HICKMAN: Does he disagree 5272

April 25, 1975. Tape 1798 RH - 1 with the report of the Federal-Provincial Corrections Committee that was initiated by me with the co-operation of the Solicitor General1 Does he disagree with the McReynolds Report that was furnished to the Solicitor General and myself when we set forth a philosophy that what we need in this Province is number one, is number one, a correctional, a medium security correctional institution to house all offenders from Newfoundland who have been sentenced to incar­ ceration.

Right now the position is that the federal prisoner~ that is anyone convicted and sentenced to serve two years or more, is the responsibility of the Government of Canada. They go to Dorchester and following classification a fairly high percentage of Newfoundlanders go to the medium security institution in Spring Hill which is a first class institution. I have been there. I have met Newfoundland inmates. I have been encouraged over the rehabilitative process that is taking place there.

I have met young Newfoundlanders who because of an affiliation with Mount Allison University 1 with the institution,because it is nearby, are now getting their degrees. I have met them with heavy equipment certificates, certificates to operate as electricians and plumbers and auto mechanics and no doubt in my mind at all,and the record speaks for itself, we have the lowest rate of recidiviSIII of any Canadian Province. There is no Province in Canada where the number of prisoners, the number of inmates return for a second time, none as low as Newfoundland. I think that that kind of programme is good.

The right wingers will say that is coddling, that is coddling the prisoners. Break them to the wheel. Give them bread and water. Lock them up and when they go out be ready to accept them when they come back again a few months later. I say that philosophy is wrong. That - MR. NEARY: Put them in work camps. MR. HICKMAN: Or put them in work camps like them do in Russia. That is the sort of thing, that is the sort of right wing approach, Mr. Speaker, that I take issue with. I say that if there is any opportunity, MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) any opportunity ••• MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 5273

April 25, 1975. Tape 1798 RH - 2 MR. HICKMAN: - if there is any opportunity to rehabilitate,and we have been doing that with a great deal of success,that our first obligation - and it is part of the criminal justice system, Mr. Sneaker . It is as much the part of the criminal justice system to look after an inmate, a person following sentence as it is to apprehend and prosecute,and this is something new. This is something new in the philosophy in this Province. This is why, Mr. Speaker, there is now

an act before this House which will transfer to the Department of Justice responsibility in the adult correction field because we believe,and the commission's report recOllll!lends,that rehabilitation, the correctional procedures are as much a part of the criminal justice system, if not more, than the simple apprehension and conviction and sentencing. The victim, Mr.

Speaker, the victim of crim~- it was my pleasure, honour to have been the second Attorney General in Canada, first it was in Saskatchewan and we were a month later, to introduce into this House a bill to provide for compensation for victims of crime and that is now the law of the land and we pay out money each year to victims who can prove a monetary loss because a crime has been committed and the person who committed the crime is not in the position to reimburse it. You get all kinds of philosophies, Mr. Speaker. You get all kinds of attitudes.

Look, I have the greatest sympathy with a shonkef!ner who comes down in the morning and he finds that $2,000 or $3,000 or $4,000 worth of goods have been taken. I have the greatest sympathy with him. But I sometimes have difficulty - MR. NEARY: What about the little, old woman who gets beaten up - MR. HICKMAN: I have some difficulty in rationalizing the attitude that sometimes flows from that. A few months ago I had a telephone call one evening from a man who was very, very irate. His shop had been broken into. He had lost by his valuation $8,000 worth of goods. That was his valuation, 5274

April 25, 1975 Tape 1799 (afterno~

n) IB-1 the insurable value, the valuation presented to the insurance. The person who committed the crime was apprehended, he was brought to court, convicted and he was sentenced to two years in prison. This man phoned me and said, what kind of courts do you have. What kind of laws do you have in Newfoundland. I said, well, I think we have pretty good courts. I know we have good courts. We have competent courts. We have men of compassion and understanding, but at the same time they will exercise their responsibility on the bench. Well, he told me the story. He said, this man only got two years.

I said, what do you think he should have got? He should have gotten five he said, at least. I said, well, how do you rationalize that with the fact that the average sentence for motor manslaughter in Canada is three years. This is where a fellow, you know, a fellow gets drunk. He goes out on the highway. There is not malice aforethought in the sense that he intends to go out and commit murder, but he indeed runs that risk and he indeed does it, The sentence, the average sentence is three years. Yet the shopkeeper who has lost $8,000 worth of goods thinks it should be five for that. I say, ~r.

Speaker, that philosophy does not commend itself to me. We try as best we can to protect the property and civil rights of the individual. In cases where there is assault upon the person 1 in cases where crimes, heinous crimes such as rape are committed as opposed to property damage, our crown prosecutors have been eminently successful in the last two or three years with the co-operation of the police in producing the evidence which has resulted in subsequent convictions. MR. NEARY: Too bad it ran out in court. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR . HICKMAN: And, Mr. Speaker MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I would just like to remind the honourable minister that he has practically two minutes left except by leave. MR . HICKMAN: These sentences - in these cases the Crown prosecutors have asked the courts and drawn to the courts attention the seriousness 5275

April 25, 1975 Tape 179Q (afternoon) IR-2 of the crime and have asked for and have received appropriate deterring sentences. If the sentences are not appropriate, the instructions are very clear, go to the Court of Appeal. AN HONOURAHLE MEMBER: The sentences are not uni.form. MR. HICKMAN: There could never be uniform sentences. Any lawyer will tell you that. Any penologist will tell you that. Any correctional officer will tell you that. There cannot be, should not he un1form sentences. There should be and there must be an attempt at uniform principles of sentencing, but every case, Mr.

Speaker, stands or falls on its own fact. MR. NEARY: Pepending on who is on the - MR. HICK~AN: The man, Mr. Speaker, who has a chance of being rehabilitated, that chance must he given him by any compassionate court, and the courts do it and I hope they will continue. And thev will continue as far as the requests or the submissions of the Crown are concerned in imposing sentences at the appropriate time which will act as a deterrent. I have no hesitancy in saying, Mr.

Speaker, since I have been in this portfolio and it is nearly seven years- I have been in practice for twenty-five years - I have never in this Province seen any evidence to substantiate the charge of the honourable Member for Bell Island that in Newfoundland there is a law for the rich and a law for the poor. That simply is not true. If :l.t was true, why would we be spending money on legal aid, why would we be insur:lng that any man in this Province - MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please MR.

HICKMAN: - or woman in this Province charged with an offence if he or she does not have the money, they will be defended and defended competently and defended adequately by counsel of their choice. MR. NEARY: Inaudible. AN HONOURARLE "MEMBER: Rear! Fear! MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for St. llarbe North. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, may J begin by congratulat:1.ng my colleague, the Member for Bell Island for speaking to one part of this amendment 5276

.Aoril 25, 1975 Tape 1799 (afternoon) this morning in the main part of his address . Sir, I thought it was an al-solutely brilliant speech in bringing before the Flouse, Sir, the concern - "IR. 1'1ll"RPHY: You had to see him that way . ~IR. SPF.AKEP: Order, please! MR. F. ROWE: - the concern of the people of t his Province and IB- 3 his own personal concern over vandalism and criminal a c tivity i n this particular Provinc e . Sir, I was disappointed indeed 5277

April 25, 1975 Tape no. 1800 Page 1 - mw to hear the Minister of Justice take a partisan stand and interpret the words and the thoughts of my colleague and take some of his words and phrases out of context - AN WN. MEMBER: Hear! Hear! MR. F. ROWE: - in his rebuttal before this House. Sir, it is most regrettable indeed and the only way I could describe it, Sir, would be unparlismentary language and that speaks for itself. Sir, I will simply dismiss the remarks of the Hon.

Minister of Justice by suggesting or by giving two exsmples of what has happened recently, just two simple examples of why we should be concerned over vandalism and crime. We had an example recently where a group of people broke into, I believe, a police headquarters and stole the very evidence that wu going to be used against them in the courts. MR. NEARY: Guns and drugs. MR. F. ROWE: Guns and drugs, Is that not a matter of concern, Sir, o~ ia it not a matter of concern? MR. HICKMAN: Were they caught? MR. F. ROWE: I think they were caught. But the fact of the matter, Sir, ia that they did break in.

A criminal act did take place. Well if the minister is so hung up on getting caught, I will give the honourable minister another example .of smething that has happened quite recently. MR. NEARY: (Il'laudible) • MR. F. ROWE: He says that there is no organized crime in th.is Province, No organized crime? Is the minister suggesting that ia this Province where they picked up some two and one-half tons - I can be corrected on that - certainly over a ton of marijuana in a vave in Tora Cove - MR. NEARY: Two and one-half, 5278

April 25, 19i5 Tape no, 1800 Page 2 - - MR. F. ROWE: Two and one-half tons of marijuana for distribution presumably within this Province or through this Province,and the chap involved, one of the chapa involved skipped bail and the minister is suggesting that there is no organized crime in the Province. And honourable members opposite acoff at my colleague frCIII Bell Island vhen he bring  up hi concern over vandalism and crime in this Province.

The honourable minister can quote all the statistics that he wihea when he compare thia Province with other ,rovinces or this city with other cities of Canada, If ve got a good crime rate, it sounds like an unusual phrase, if we got a good record as far as vandalism and crillle is concerned, Sir, let us keep it that way. MR. NEARY: Hear! Hear! MR. F, ROWE: And thh ia precisely what the whole purpose of my colleague's speech was about this morning, MR. NEARY: Right. MR. F. ROWE: That is the purpose, Sir, of one part of this particular :amendment. It is as simple as that.

Now, Sir, my colleague from Bell Island this morning spent a major part of hia time on only one part of the amendment, I would like to refer to two other sections, one briefly and one a little more lengthy, two other sections of the amendment. Sir, it says that this -

be it resolved that all the words after that be deleted and the following words be substituted therefore - this is the non-confidence vote in this administration. And if we go down further, this House regrets the failure of the present administration to introduce programm.ea to lessen the severe impact on our people of the rapidly risi.Jlg in cost of living. Let us just skip that for a moment and go down to, and further regrets the inadequacy of meaaures to deal vith dramatic i.Jlcreases in work stoppages as a result of strikes and lockiuts 5279

.I._ April 25, 1975 Tape no. 1800 Page 3 - mw both legal and illegal. Now, Sir, I am not the official spokeSlllall for labour relations on this side of the House. However in speaking to this particular amendment, I feel impelled to look at one recent example of the damage that a particular legal strike is doing to the economy of this Province . And it is one, Sir, that is likely to reach the Kational Kews 'because it involves booze. I would not be the least bit surprised that on the Kational Kews tonight, Sir, the Bational Kews, the CBC National News we will hear that Newfoundland haa gone dry for the weekend.

MR.. NEARY: The local news does not even know the House exists. MR. F. ROWE: The local news probably does not even realize the House exists, Sir, Well I would go ao far as to say that the Provincial and the National News will carry the liquor strike in Newfoundland because, you know, you can say, poor old dry Newfoundland for the weekend or for the week or for the 110nth, and this is the kind of thing that gets publicity and the news aedia have to try to get the best story possible and this is a sort of a aensational type of a thing. And it 5280

April 25, 1975 Tape 1801 (Afternoon) PK - 1 is one where emotions can be aroused, and indeed D.T's I suppose could be aroused under the circumstances. But, Sir, let us look at the situation. Last year if we look at the comparative summing up of provincial and federal revenues we see that the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation's revenue was $26,800,000 AN HON. MEMBER: Got a drop of boose - MR. F. ROWE: Now, Sir, let us round that off to $30,000 for this year. It is obviously going to be more than $30,000 this year. But let us round it off to $30,000 this year. MR. NEARY: $30 million. MR. F.

ROWE: $30 million this year, I am sorry. $30,million 1975-1976. Sir, this means that for every week that the workers at the Newfoundland Liquor Commission are on strike this Province loses something more than $600,000. Now, Sir, rumours are circulating around, and I think that NAPE have made it quite clear that they are prepared to sit this one out a month • .

As a matter of fact they have stocked up for their own convention, is that correct? which is about to take place in a month's time which is,I would suggest.a very skillful way of pointing out to the public and the government tQat they are prepared to sit this one out a month. If those people, Sir, - and this is a legitimate strike. They have every right to go on strike. They are obeying the law. It is completely legal. If this strike continues for one month, thirty days, Sir, this Province will lose a minimlDII of $2,400,000. MR. NEARY: Penny wise and pound foolish. MR. F.

ROWE: Now, Sir, that is a pretty important thing to take into consideration, a one month's strike, involving how many people, 'Steve'? I do not know how many people involved. MR. NEARY: Two hundred. MR. F. ROWE: Only two hundred people in this Province is going to cost this government in excess of $2,400,000 in the · next month. AN HON. MEMBER: A big assumption there. MR. F. ROWE: Anything is an assumption, Sir, the very fact they were going on - last night it was an assumption to assUIJle that they 5281

April 25, 1975 Tape 1801 (Afternoon) PK - 2 were going to