PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEHBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, APRIL 1, 1977

April 1, 1977 Tape 1502 IB-1 The House met at 10:00 A .}r. ~r. Speaker in the Chair. 1'-fF.. SPE.A.KETI : Order, please! STATE'!-1ENTS BY MINI STEPS: }ffi. SPFAKEP: The han. Premier. PP.E~IER ~x00PES: }fr. Speaker, I know sowe progress reports have been given but I wanted to update the Rouse on the job creation programme. The Provincial c~vernment's special job creation programme introduced in the Throne Speech is now in fuJl swing. Seventy projects are undenvay throughout the Province and 750 people are employed.

The basic intent of the programme was to concentrate efforts in the areas where high unemployment existed, and in as many cases as possible to employ able-bodied persons ~+-o were drawing Social Assistance. approach has "t-rorked extremely t.rell. The programme is being carried out by four departments of government, namely Forestry and Agricu!ture, Fisheries, Tourism and Social Services with !-!anpower and Indust ·rial ~elations playing a co-ordinating role.

The follo~7ing tahle illustrates the involvement of the four departments: Department of Social Services, 24 projects, 240 This participants; Agriculture and Forestry, 20 projects, 245 participants; Department of Tourism, 17 projects, 99 participants; and the Department of Fisheries, 9 projects, 66 participants for a total of 70 projects and 750 people. Hhile most of the projects are unden-Jay, there are still a few projects to start.

Actually, there are seven more to start within the next two weeks and they will employ an additional eighty men bringing the total to 830 altogether. ~ost of the people involved were receiving Social Assistance only a month . or so ago. These men are very appreciative of this opportunity and are working with much enthusiasTT" and efficienc~r. Actua .lly, they feel they have been ~iven a new lease on life. In fact~for many of thern the pro~ramme has had a 4196

AprH 1, 1977 Tape 1502 PREMIER MOORES: very beneficial rehabilitative effect that augers ~..,.ell for the future. The projects themselves· are things that needed to be done and for the most part are related to strengthening the resource base and resource orientated facilities. }".any of the IB-2 projects relate to the fishin~, forestry and tourist industries and will no doubt prove to be worthwhile invest~£nts that will facilitate the production of wealth for the Province in the future.

The projects will begin to terminate around the end of ~ay and early June and an evaluative component has been built into the programme and t-rill be instructive to Government with regard to such programmes in the future. I might add, 1-1"r. Speaker, that if these projects go as well as they appear to be going now there ::i.s a very real likelihood that the Province will be looking at fm::ther extension of that sort of project in the future. SO~lE HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! YR. SPEAKER: ~"F. . SI~ONS: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. ~.rr.

Speaker, I would like to just make a brief response f on behalf of my colleagues to the Premier's statement. I do not believe anybody can quibble with the concept, the job creation progra~e concept. We have quibbled .. and I believe very justifiably so, t-rith the amount of money involved 4.197

April 1, 1977 Tape 1503 JM - 1 ~. SIMMONS: and I would hope•and the last statement by the Premier is an encouraging one- I would hope that government would be looking at the possibility of a moreembracive programme because we have said the S2 million programme is scarcely more than a drop in the bucket. As a pilot approach, ~r. Speaker, it has merit. As an effort to combat unemployment it~as I say, is scarcely more than a drop in the bucket. Perhaps when the ~inister of Finance finally gets around to bringing in his budget,if the year is not over by then~he may be able to - -- HR.

DOODY: The year is over today. !'fR. SIHHONS: No, the year for which the budget ·would be brought in. If that year is not over, that is our fear over here nmv. MR. DOODY: You need have no fear. ~1R. SI~10NS: All right. The minister has made his first definite commitment to us, Mr. Speaker. But seriously,perhaps even in that budget while he is wrestling with the problem of Lab. Liner,he might also wrestle with the problem of some more money - MR. MURPHY: To a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. MR. SI~ONS: Sure, sure. MR.

MURPIN: My understanding is there would be a short comment on the ministerial statement. Now if we are going to get into the budget debate now and everything e ~ se,you know,I think that ....... ------- is what delays the business and we are all so anxious to come ----- ·-·--- ~-- --· ·-· - --·---------- here and work for the good of the people. I think I heard tnaf - expressed for nearly two hours yesterday in this han. House. So, you know,~vhat is the situation on comments on ministerial statements? MR.

SPEAKER: The rule on comments on ministerial statements is quite clear cut and that is that brief comments are permitted and one mav ~sk fcr exnlanation. It precludes debate,.but I do not think that hon. ' gentlemen's comments, the hon. gentleman to my right's comments 419S

April 1, 1977 Tape 1503 JM- 2 MR. SPEAKER: had to this point infringed upon that rule. The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Now I am in an extremely good mood this morning and I can see the Minister of Finance was and let us keep it that way being Friday morning and all. I was saying I hope that in his wrestling with Lab. Liner he might also wrestle with the need to put more money into the kind of programme, into the job creation programme about which the Premier just made some comments. Mr.

Speaker, there is one or two particular points that I want to raise and the Premier might ~-1ant to reply either now or during the Question Per~od or at some point: I understand that in the case of at least one project, one of the forestry projects, that there has been a problem getting paid in that peoole have waited for a month without any pay and this, it seems to me,is most unusual. You know the normal pay periods now are weekly or every two weeks. MR. MAYNARD: That has been cleared up. MR.

SIMMONS: Okay, the Minister of Forestry has ~ indicated that has been cleared up and that was a matter that came to our attention and I am delighted to hear it has been cleared up. The Premier's comments about an evaluation component I think needs comment and something that we welcome,first of all. I would hope, Mr.

Speaker, that to make that evaluation as creditable as possible the Premier and his people would consider involving people, in addition to people in the government service, people outside the government service probably,for example,someone from Federal Manpower just as an example so that not only is the evaluation fairly independent but it also has the appearance of independence. We all know,I think,that if we, you know, Social Services and Forestry, , if the people who were administering that programme were asked to evaluate it,the natural inclination is to say it ~"as a fantastic success.

That is human nature,and it 419~

April 1, 1977 Tape 1503 JM - 3 MR. SIMMONS: would have a lot more creditability if some independence were given to the evaluation component perhaps by involving some Federal people. I just suggest that, but· some people not directly involved in the administration of those job creation programmes. The findings of that evaluation unit would have a lot more meaning for the -people concerned, we,the politicans,and the people of the Province generally. It is encouraging to }tear that 8'30 or 750 jobs to date have been created. This should be put in perspective, Mr. Speaker.

They are very, very short-term jobs,let us not forget. In some cas-es they lasted only four weeks in one case, I believe in the Port au Port area. So they are of 'Very fleeting duration and 4200 ..: ._

April 1, 1977. Tape 1504 RH - 1 MR. SIMMONS: points to some of the faults of the programme. But as I said in the beginning,! do not believe anybody can quibble with the concept of government attempting to create jobs. We do quibble with the amounts~ and we find encouragement in the Premier's last statement that they are looking -at a possible injection of additional funds into the programme. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. -1 PR.~1IER MOORES: and 2it,_ Mr. Speaker, I table the answers to 0uestions Nos. J4,18,22 --- MR. NEARY: Asked by whom?

PREMIER MOORES : Mr. Speaker, they were asked by the member from Trinity-Bay de Verde(Mr. Rowe), Question :ro. 14 was; Question No •. 18 was asked by the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde, question no. 22 the same, question no. 24 the same. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Industrial and Rural Development. HON. J. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, I table answer to Question No. 134 by the member for LaPoile(Mr. Neary) regarding meetings, Marystown Ship Yard and board of directors and that kind of general information, the kind of thing that should be on the Order Paper. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. HON. E. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to Question No. 205 ---asked by the hon. the member for LaPoile(Mr. Neary). ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. E. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier. It grows out of the news in recent days that the Senate of the United States has mov~ towards, even though they have not yet adopted, a resolution on'the sealing hurit comparable to that adopted by the 4201

April 1, 1977. Tape 1504 RH- 2 MR. ROBERTS: House of Representatives earlier. The Pemier will recall he sent a telegram, I believe, to the President of the United States and to other officials.

My question, Sir, is whether in the light of the fact that obviously the American Congress is moving towards a further statement on this issue, a statement which will not be favourable to our position,which does not reflect the belief of every person in this Province, will the Premier comtemplate further steps,in particular the suggestion which I made in the House that he or the Minister of Fisheries,or some representative of the government or for that matter a de·legation from the House, go to Washington to present our side.

Apparently the appropriate committee of the American Senate, Sir, has recommended a resolution against the sealing industry. I gather it is much less offensive in its wording than the one adopted by the House of Representatives, but none the less it is offensive in that ' it goes against the position which we know is correct. So I ask if the Premier is prepared to take these further steps because obviously the people who are out to try to destroy our sealing industry are continuing to push their case in the American Congress and obviously, Sir, they are having some effect. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, the Senate of the United States as we know has passed the resolution through one of their committees - I forget which - one of their committees that pass these resolutions. It has not ' gone through the full Senate as yet to my knowledge. I have had no reply from the telegrams that we sent on our behalf on this thing. I have talked to the President of the Fishermen's Union, Hr. Cashin, in the Province regarding the problem. He was hoping to get to Washington at the same time as Mr. Davies, Brian Davies was there.

But what we are doing right now, Sir, is getting a programme together 4202

April 1:, 1977. Tape 1504 RH - 3 PREMIER MOORES: that will start in the very near future to try to countervail the adverse publicity that we have had by having our own programme through the media and through the various publications and so on and also using individuals of government 'and other interested people in the Province who also have the position well established and are very capable of putting that position forward. Regarding going down and appearing before the Ame~ican Senate, I do not think that would do particularly any great deal of good.

I think it is probably better if we deal with it through Canadian External Affairs. I think it is an intergovernmental thing with the Government of Canada and the Government of the United States. Repre .senta tion 4203

~ r.~arch 31, 1977 Tape 1505 IB-1 PRE~qER }~OO'PES: has been made to the Government of Canada to intervene in this particular case. And as I say,an overall programme - I think we have to do it now rather than wait until the seal hunt is upon us again next year - an overall programme of trying to combat the adverse publicity is now in the works. MR. ROBEP.TS : A supplementary. A supplementary. HR. SPEAKER: }1R, ROBERTS: l~r . Speaker, I am delighted to hear ~hat the government are adopting the suggestion which a number of us made some months ago and I think it is the r:ight course to take. But, Yr.

Speaker, the Premier said he has been in touch with External Affairs in Ottawa and that although he did not say it, one assumes the re~uest was to ask them to make representation to the appropriate authorities in Washington. Does the Premier feel that that is suffident? And I say that, Sir, because the Congress of the United States is a very influential body) and I do nnt say that in any sarcastic way. I mean.it is the supreme legislative body in one of the two most powerful countries in the world and a country ~rith whom we have "intimate political ties as well as commercial and social and cultural ties.

It is bad enough that a resolution has been passed by the House of Representatives,and my information is passed, you know, almost accidentially - they did not put a lot of time or study into it - but now it is going up to the Senate. The Senate Foreign Relations Committee have approved it in a modified form. It will go to the full Senate,and I understand in the Amercian system these things do not necessarily get a lot of debate. They can go through a body such as the Senate fairly ouickly. The Senate'has a lot of business to do and the Foreign- ~-1R. LUNDRIG.AN: On a point of order, :Mr. Speaker. }f]l.

SPEAKER: A point of order. MR. LUNDRIGAN: This is a bit unusual. The hon. Leader of the Opposition certainly has the right to make these remarks in the House on a given occasion~ but this is the Question Period and he has gone on for about three minutes with a

preamble which certainly is a speech. 4204 ._

~arch 31, 1977 Tape 1505 IB-2 }~ • SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. ~,. ROBEPTS : To that point of order, ~~r. Speaker. First of all, as we established yesterday in the Question Period this is one of the few instances where the Speaker on his own initiat:i.ve raises the matter and Your Honour did not interrupt me. I assume because - (Inaudible) MR. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, I heard the hon. gentleman for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) in silence. Would,he do me the courtesy, Sir, to let me s-peak while he remains silent? ~r.

Speaker, secondly,or the point I as making before I was so rudely interrupted by the gentleman for Grand Falls (¥r. Lundrigan) is that since Your Honour had not intervenecl I am under the impression Your Honour did not feel I was transgressing. And secondly, Sir, the rules,both in this House and in Ottawa,perrnit a few explanatory remarks as prefatory to a question and that is what I was doing. If I am not in order then, Sir, if Your Honour will so rule,then of course I will abide by it and attempt to phrase my remarks in a form that is in order.

But as far as I am aware, Sir, I was not out of order. ~-· SPEft~R: Standing Order 31 (

c) is the applicable rule and as ....... ---- -------- han. members are aware it reads, "In putting any oral questions, no argument or opinion is to be offered nor any facts stated except so far as may be necessary to explain the same; and in answering such question, the Minister is not to debate the matter to which it refers." The operative

part is obviously tha~ no argument or opinion is to be offered and only such facts stated as are necessary to explain the question. With respect to the extent to which any facts stated by _the hon. Le~der of the Oppos:i.tion were necessary to explain the question is a difficult point to determine. I would however point out to him that the rule would allow only such facts as are necessary for the auestion. MR. ROBERTS: Well thank you, Your Honour, and that is what I am trying to dv ;h·e Premier obviously was listening ,even if the gentleman for Grand Falls O~r. Lundrigan) was not interested. The point - 4205

}'!'arch 31, 1977 Tape 1505 IB-3 ~~-• LlE)P.IGAN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. l-"R. SPEAKEF: A point of order. lAF • NOL<\N : Ch sit down, boy. For God's sake, sit down. YR. SPK~KEF. : Order, please! Order, please! I will hear the hon. gentleman's point of order. ~-· LnNDRIGAN: ¥r. Speaker, ~AYhether I ~'as listening or not ,or Hhether my attitude is the correct attitude or not is not relevant to the question. An~ the hon. Leader of the Opposttion has a tendancy to debate in presenting his questions.

And I suggest that that comment and these kinds of comments are not relevant, they are not in order, Your Honour. !-'fP. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: }1'r. Speaker, I do not see any point of order. And unless ~~ur Honour wishes to make a ruling I would like to carry on with my question, Sir. ¥-F. SPE~~F: In the strictest, most technicRl understanding and ~pplication of the rules,the hon. gentleman to my left's position was or I understand that it would be that the 4206 ..:.

April 1, 1977 Tape 1506 LB-1 MR. SPEAKER: remarks ,sentence or so of the Hon. Leader of the Opposition ~-tere not relevant or were not necessary to make the question intelligible,and in that very strict .

interpretation he is correct. Hon. Leader of the Opposition . MR.ROBERTS: Thank you, ~r. Speaker.

The problem is that due to the interruption of the gentleman from Grand Falls - - I have lost the point of the question but as_I recall it, Sir,, it was that the American Congress have moved toward a final statement on this, they are moving towards a final statement,and my question to the Premier is along the lines of whether he thinks that the representation which has been made to External Affairs is sufficient;and growing out of that a further question which I will ask,as they are really the same, you know,the same point, but one a shade on from the other - has there been any response from Ottawa either to Washington or any response back to us in Newfoundland I to the representations made by the Government?

MR. SPEAKER : Ron. the Premier • PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I have had no reply from External Affairs on any response from the American Government as yet, and I assume when it has reached a certain stage I would get that. But I do have confidence in External Affairs to ~t this matter. The Minister of External Affairs•or the Secretary of External Affairs,being a Ne.wfoundlander~I think fully appreciates the problem and I am sure being the Newfoundland representative in the Cabinet that he is will do all he can to exploit , the matter.

MR.SPEAKER: Hon. member for LaPoile followed by the bon. gentleman Windsor -Buchans. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the Ron. the Premier tell the House when the people in Ferryland District and in the Provincial District of S will be given an opportunity to elect their own representative and have representation in this House? 4207 ·-

April 1, 1977 Tape 1506 LB-2 MR.SPEAKER: Hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORFS:Mr. Speaker, that is obviously a question that the people themselves are interested in ana as well ~11 political parties are interested in 1 I would think that the likelihood ....._ is,as I said earlier this winter,that the election 'tY"ould be when the rreather gets a little warmer. Yesterday someone said that it is warm errough now to have it,but today I think would be awkward.

But as the season progresses I am sure the bon. member for LaPoile can look forward to campaign~ng.I ~not sure who he is c~mpaJgni~g fo~, that is the only thing, Mr. Speaker, but he can look forward to an election in the not too distant future. MR.NEARY: A supplementary question Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.NEARY: !-7ould the Hon. the Premier care to indicate to the House if these by-elections will be held say before the C.H.E. ~~~~~~~~~-------examinations take place in this prov inc e ? PREMIERlfOORES: 'The what? MR.NEARY: Before the C.H.E examinations. 1-tR.. SPEAKER: Ron. the Premier.

PREMIER MOORES: I do not know, Mr. Speaker. I did not realize you had to take one to run. MR.SPEAKER: Hon. member Windsor-Buchans. MR.FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, a question to the minister of Consumer ~ff~irs. For my own information, I think basically, when the ~ster announced a couple of weeks ago the board, Advisory Board on automobile insurance in the province ,1id I understand the minister to say in an answer to a previous question yesterday that that board is also charged with responsibility of looking into all aspects of fire insurance in this province as wellr MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Minister of Consumer Affairs. ~ Mr.

Speaker, as I explained I had accumulated many hundreds of pieces of written submissions, telephone calls and 4208

April 1, 1977 Tape 1506 LB-3 MR.MURPHY~ and everything else with referance to all types of insurance,although I think basically it ~-Tas automobile insurance at that particular time. But since that,and- following again the hon. member's submission the other day with reference to returning to wood stoves and oeonlP- not being permitted to purchase insurance,and I had the same thing and I think many others in the older parts of the city of St.

John's irr.:~ other areas where there is no furnace heat as such but only a space heater that they have had if not difficulty perhaps no way to get insurance again and to me it is a very very serious matter that has arisen arising out of all the other investigations • I am sure that we have to have a completely hard loo~:,a long look at what the status of insurance is in this province. Can they~say.,insure "A" and not insure "B" and this type of thing? Now in automobile insurance,~rr.

Speaker, I do not wish to delay , but there are reasons because a guy might have had a conviction for perh~ps impaired driving or something but naturally there would be certain ratings in this type of thing. But reference to fire insurance, Sir, and Lord only . . knows ther~are enough people suffered the loss of their homes and the saddest line you can read in any paper is 4209

April 1, 1977 Tape no. 1507 Page 1 - MS Mr. Murphy. no insurance carried on these things, where everything is wiped out, everything they own. So we are having a very long hard look,and I am very happy to say that this committee has gone in very extensively, and I hope that within the next two weeks or three weeks to have a complete report on all types of insurance. Towards that end, Mr.

Speaker, if I may without delaying the House, anybody that any factor at all with reference to discrimination / they feel, the more I can get the better it will give this committee to work on and my department when we start to analyze the whole thing. And I hope that perhaps for the first time in this Province we can put the matter of insurance, not only the question of premiums and everything else, but the responsibilities of the insurer in its proper perspective to make sure that no one is being discriminated against in anyway, whether they live in the city of St. John's or in Nain or anywhere else.

There might be different rates. But at least they should not refuse to insure anything unless the reasons are sound enough to be proven to us. And when I say, us, all of us here, not only as a government, but as a House of Assembly for that reason. MR. NOLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. member for Conception Bay South. MR.

NOLAN: To the Minister of Consumer Affairs; I am wondering if the minister can inform us,or will attempt to at least find out, How many insurance companies moved from Newfoundland or divorced themselves from their agents in Newfoundland, in this Province, in the last, say, two years? Because apparently their profit margins were down, and they decided to cut bait and run. I would like to have, and I am sure the members of this House would like to have - I have been told, for example, by people in the insurance business that this big company is gone and that big company is gone. Well let us name them.

I mean they were here, Mr. Speaker, when they were doing well off Newfoundlanders. 4210

Apri 1 1, 1977 Tape no. 1507 Page 2 - r~s l~r. Nolan. Now what are the ones that have been operating here for years and all of a sudden they have some profit difficulties, and thev get out. So I wonder if the minister would undertake to find out, Who they are, and if they, in fact, have given up operating in this Province? It is just so we will know in case they ~1ant to come back. MR. SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I would be too happy to do that. I might say that every insurance company in the Province threatened to leave the Province when all this new rate and everything was brought in.

To my knowledge I believe there is one, and I cannot even name it. I think there is one that I know of. But I believe since that there has been something like five formed. and I am very happy to say that five of these are local companies. Because look,in insurance premiums in the year 1936 -we talk about industries there was $36 million - MR. NEARY: You said, 1936. r~R. MURPHY: In 1976. What did I say, 1936 again. I was thinking of $36 million. I ·am sorry. In 1976 there was $76 million - MR. LUNORIGAN: $36 million. MR. MURPHY: In 1976 there was $36 million - SOME HON. t~EMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

MURPHY: You know, I told the Premier yesterday that I just had to get away somewhere for a few weeks. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MURPHY: And I am only to solidify my arguments in that respect. SOME HON. MDmERS: Hear, hear! MR. MURPHY: But we talk about resources or whatever, you know, money circulating. As I said $36 million in 1975 was paid out - MR. LUNDRIGAN: In 1976. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MURPHY: In 1976. I better quit while I am ahead. 4211. --

Apri 1 1, 1977 Tape no. 1507 Page 3 - ms MR. MURPHY: But in 1976,$36 million - $36,000,000.00 - was paid in premiums. So that is quite an industry in itself. And as I say I will not be happy until I get a complete-and full report. And on that when it comes I would like every member to have a look at the thing, and let us discuss it, and offer ideas of where do we go from here. MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER MOORES: MR. SPEAKER: The Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary. A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order.

PREMIER MOORES: I just want to know, Sir, if it is proper than a man in that condition could possibly be the coach representing the hockey team from this particular area. MR. NOLAN: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. It is quite obvious that the han. Premier has raised a specious point of order which is obviously politically biased. I rise to defend the hon. gentleman for St. John's Centre (Mr. Murphy), and an old neighbour. And so I do not really thing it.is a truthful point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. MURPHY: If I may. This is a very important matter with me.

It ,is an attack on my reputation as a hockey coach, and I must say that tomorrow night there is a big do at Mount Pearl. I have been fired from the team as coach, and replaced by the Minister of Education. I have the member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) fightiriq for me, because I promised him that he could centre the first string, and now just because he is Chairman of the Public Accounts, the group on tnis side are against him, and firing me, so I have had it. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition on a supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: f·1r.

Speaker, I need say only that the minister's reputation as a hockey coach speaks for itself. But now that the Topsail Pond mafia have had their go let me ask a supplementary to the minister. The 4212

April 1, 1977. Tape 1508 RH - 1 MR. ROBERTS: amount of premiums collected in Newfoundland he says is $36 million. That would be on fire and casulty insurance. There would be another many millions on life insurance. MR. MURPHY: Oh, yes. That is - MR. ROBERTS : Right. It is over and above the $36 million. My question, Sir, is this,and it is one that has often been asked but I QO not think it has ever been answered. I am not sure if it has been asked to the minister but it is an old question. How much do the insurance companies invest in Newfoundland? Are we net gainers or net losers?

You know, they do buy a lot of bon ds. ut a certain amount on mortgages, commercial and sometimes residential mortgages. Could the minister - I do not imagine he would have the information right there now - but could he find out,because that is the real measure of whether we are gaining or losing. You know, we are paying out $50 million or $100 million a year in this Province in premiums to these insurance companies. Are they investing a fair I portion of that in Newfoundland and Labrador or not? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. RON. A MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, with reference to that, Mr.

Speaker, I have not got the correct figures. But I will say yes, in proportion ~to premiums paid across Canada we do get - and I think it was a couple of years ago we met with the group from all the life insurance companies who came here to discuss, I do not know if the hon. Minister of Finance was in, but I think the Premier was at the time, to discuss investments such as they are.

But it is a very moot question I think and I can certainly check what premiums have been paid generally and perhaps get a statement because I mean that ·'I'C· . is the type of thing that we can be talking about perhaps more practical than some of the things we are really doing here. I will try to bring in a statement of the total amount of premiums paid and what money comes back in the Province in the form of investment in any area. And as the hon. Leader of the Opposition 4213

April 1, 1977. Tape 1508 RH- 2 MR. MURPHY: has said, I know they buy quite a number of bonds but who would not buy bonds at ten and a half per cent. You know, I take my $300 out of the Bank of Commerce at four per cent and put in into bonds for ten and a half per cent. MR. ROBERTS: The Minister of Finance will be grateful for that. It will help him to bring in the budget. MR. SPEAKER: The member for Baie Verte-White Bay followed by the hon. lady for St. Georges. MR.. RIDEOUT : Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health.

The minister told us here in the House a month, month and a half ago that the Department of Justice was in the process of drawing up a bill to legalize and regulate the practice of denturists in the Province. Could the minister tell the House ---whether or not the draft copy of that bill has been completed and delivered to him yet? MR. SPEAKER: ·The hon. minister. HON. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure that that sort of information should be requested and neither am i sure that I have a responsibility to respond to it.

That is an internal governmental matter.However, inthe kind spirit and tradition of this House I will tell the hon. member that I have not received it back. But that does not mean that no work has been done on it. The legislation is being drafted. And I gave a commitment before,and that commitment still stands, that as soon as we have the final draft as to what the government's intentions are that I will be getting in touch with the denturists and I will also make it available to members of this House. MR. RIDEOUT: A_supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the original questioner.

April 1, 1977. Tape 1508 RH - 3 MR. RIDEOUT: In view of the minister's,and I do believe the government's commitment in the Throne Speech or somewhere just after that legislation will be tabled this session, can ttie minister tell the House whether or not it is government's intention still to bring that _legislati.on before the Hou_s_e _ _, this ses~ion in view of the lateness now of the session? MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. COLLINS: That is another question, Mr. Speaker, which I do not know is in order. It queries what government's intentions are.

But again I have already indicated,and I will confirm it now,that appropriate· legislation dealing with denture technology will hopefully - and when I say hopefully, I will not say hopefully, I remove hopefully - will be brought before this session of the House. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. Georges I have indicated that I would recognize. MRS. H. MACISAAC: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Consumer Affairs.

With respect to the number of cases of people 't-having policies cancelled because of the fact that they do not have electric heat or furnaces,and depending on the actual cases presented by members, would it be necessary to bring in new legislation to correct this situation? And if so, would the minister be prepare d to do it this session? ------------ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. MURPHY: If I may I would certainly like to, quite frankly. ~ With reference to peoples honestly you hear a lot and particularly, you know, people talk insurance have been cancelled, quite about this.

But it is very difficult really for me to go to anybody, whoever it is, and ~ight a case if I cannot give them the facts and figures. 4215 -.

April 1, 1977. Tape 1508 RH- 4 MRS • MAC! SAAC : No, I say depending on the number of cases - MR. MURPHY: Yes. And if I can get a reaction 4216

April 1, 1977 Tape No. 1509 MR. MURPHY: from people and give me actual cases I am sure that this government will be only too happy to safeguard the rights because, and I say this because of my background in insurance, never a time perhaps in the history of the world has there been need to insure what we own, you know, houses as it is today because we can lose all our life's savings an~_perhaps the next fort~ or fifty years.

So I am very keen on this and we have gone into the ~hing, and as I say with reference to criticisms of the the committee or anything else, we are trying to get every fact we can together and all of us here - not only me as a - minister in this government but everybody I feel, we are all responsible, the whole fifty-one to the 500,000 people, and everything we can do to protect them we will do between us all. There are about 100 cases in my area. NM- 1 MRS~ MACISAAC: ~.

MURPHY: Well I ~-Tould like to know it, really,and I might add here to - pardon me, if the member would not mind- mobile homes was another one and that concerns an awful lot of people. And I would like to thank the mem~er for Stephenville (Mr. McNeil).He submitted papers, done tremendous research in the whole thing, not only fire but damage and everything else. That is another area. And I was amazed and surprised the number of houses of Newfoundlanders that have made these so-called mobile homes in trailer parks as pe~~ent homes for themselves.

So the whole question will be covered and I hope as soon as we can get it we will get the whole thing out and copies will be distributed. I would like to have a full fledged discussion on it and what legislation we can get to protect the people concerned. 4217 --

April 1, 1977 Tape No. 1509 NM- 2 MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Burin-Placentia 'to-est, followed by the bon. member for LaPoile. ·- MR. CANNING: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the bon. Premier. I am hoping he is in the corridor or out in the other room with the loud-speaker on and perhaps he can come in to ·reply to it. I will have to preface my question, Mr. Speaker.

About a year and a half ago,I think it was, I am not sure of my date, I approached the hon. the Premier when the employment at the ~hipyard in Marystown was very low and I asked him would he consider building a couple of draggers to look after the situation for the time being. And I suggested to him that -I said, "Look," I did not call (. him Mr. Premier, we were out in the corridor, I called him by his first name, I said, "Look, if you had a couple of dra_gg.~:rs __ now built:_ _at Marys town we could sell them." He I " ------ ,---- ----- agreed with me.

Now I said, "You could charter them." "Yes," he said, "or you could sell them." So I was delighted with this approach~ wi~up le of weeks the hen. Minister of Economic Development came and told me that they had acceded to my request and I was delighted, almost. He said, "We are going to build one dragger," and to the bon. minister I said, "Look,it is too bad you did not put up two because it would look after the situation there now." But that dragger,by the way,is built and my question is,is she sold? Has she been sold? I think she is completed and ready to go,right?

And my second question was, if the Premier would reconsider, or if he is reconsidering~his policy in regar d -------. to draggers . ~when he came out first it was twelve and then twenty dragger~ : -if he is still considering it or if he is going to go ahead with it, at the oresent moment we are short of draggers, several plants are short of draggers and will he reconsider it? That is one question. Is the dragger sold or chartered, I think she is sold, and will he consider building other draggers to meet the 4218 -.

April 1, 1977 Tape No. 1509 NM- ~ MR. CANNING: needs of the fishing industry of Newfoundland. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Rural and Industrial Development. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, I will deal with that question ~on behalf of the Premier. The Premier in 1975 did give a ~mmitment and did honour it to build a trawler in Marystown.

At that time we had sustained an unemployment of roughly 100 people who were laid off,and had we not gone with the dragger it could have very well meant the end of Marystown Shipyard,because at that time we would have had to have another 100 people laid off, we would have lost the work force and the government committed and had constructed and just about completed a dragger which is ready for sale. The Min~ster of Fisheries and a number of us had been involved in putting together a package to offer companies that are interested. There is a lot of interest in it.

There is specific interest in Burgee and Trepassey and Fortune, a number of areas as well. The.general circumstances that the member is alluding to really is the work force at Marystown. He must be,I am sure, he has not said it, .but he must be very pleased that we did last year have $12 million worth of work completed at Marystown.

We had, aside from the dragger that was built ·., we had this tug, a very sophisticated tug for Eastern Canada Tawing. ' We had something like about $3 million or $4 million in repair work, and we at the present moment have laid five keels for five tugs for $21 million worth of work for the Norwegian company which is a big plus for us. We were very flattered a week ago when we had the Ambassador from the 4219

t April 1, 1977 Tape 1510 JM- 1 MR. LUNDRIGAN: European Economic _ Comm~nity in our Province and we talked about Marystown Shipyard and they said you are really fortunate because sixty per cent of all of the yards in Europe are under utilized, sixty per cent of all of the European capacity. Now in a specific way, Mr~ Speaker, we are looking' at other MR. CANNING: When are you going to answer the_ question? MR. LUNDRIGAN: The ans1;-1er is we have the boat completed. We .) two,we are looking at other work for the yard.

We are very actively pursuing a very, very interesting proposition and I hopefully the work force can be increased if we can lure this work into Marystown. The work force right now is in the vicinity of 350,fluctuating up and down with the trades,and it is one of the real bright spots in our Province and the member must be really satisfied to represent an area which is such a beehive of activity. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for LaPoile followed by the hen. gentleman for Eagle River. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, would the Minister of Mines and Energy tell the House whether Mobil Oil Canada or BP Canada will be doing .-- any drilling this year for oil and gas on the Grand Banks or off the Coast of Newfoundland? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: We are not sure yet, Mr. Speaker, whether they are or whether they are not. We should know in the next couple of weeks. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Will the minister tell the House if both companies have accepted the -- -- ---government's regulations in connection with oil drilling? r-- MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. 4220 --

Ap~=f:l .J, 1977 Tape 1510 JM - 2 MR.. PECKFORD: Well, we are still discussing the regulations with them and when the white paper comes out and they see the regulations again.,and perhaps~~ ~!l:,~ -' w~~ to have another go at t~em._ It is not a short-term thing. It is difficult to do in the time constrairts of __.;""a given year and to gel it with the drilling season. But they have been extremely receptive to our point of view and we see no reason why in that they will not accept them. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Final supplementary. MR.

NEARY: Is the minister aware that Mobil Oil Canada Limited has applied to Ottawa for permission to convert about 1.2 million acres offshore oil and gas holdings on the Grand Banks from permits to leases? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: I was not aware of it but that is the normal ~ procedure for a company that has federal permits~and under the - ~erms of their permits . and so on they have a given period of time to do a number of things with the acreage that they have. That is normal procedure as far as I know.

Of course4they will also be requested to do likewise after regulations are _l:_o~ _for_ 'us. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: I have a question for the Minister of Mines and Energy. Could he tell us whether there is any decision yet,or i s he expecting a decision soon in the case of the Brinnex uranium 't mining project? I understand the decision is to be made soon or had to be made soon and they were going to let us know. So I am just wondering if there has been any decision made yet on the go ahead of the mine? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR.

PECKFORD: I would not care to comment in any detail on that right now, Mr. Speaker, until I check with the company. I met with Mr. De~aporte and Dr. Grimley this week. Last week I met with Mr. elbliroudr and some of his people,and the week before that, 4221 --

... April 1, 1977 Tape 1510 JM- 3 MR. PECKFORD: I think,I met with some other people who worked with Brinnex and I had fairly long discussions with them but I -· do not know,to tell you the truth,whether I am at liberty to give the information because I would not want to do it without checking with the company, - information concerning the whole development. Suffice it to say now for the hon. member that there are some problems in the uranium field around the world.

The present Canadian position vis-a-vis export of uranium to the EEC,for example,is a major factor in any additional uranium -- production in Canada in the next five years. The - MR. NEARY: The price? MR. PECKFORD: No, no, not the price. The controls, the export controls that Canada has placed because of their bad experience in India and Argentina and other .Places where they have exported some uranium which have obviously or apparently those cou1ttries have used for military purposes.

So the standards that the Canadian Government has set as relates to the export of uranium to other countries is such that it is of great concern t.o the . European Economic Community. And why that is important is,n~ber one,as an export market,and number two,that there is a German company who are i~volved with Brinnex in the development in Labrador. MR. STRACHAN: Forty per cent. MR. PECKFORD: Well none yet, ..... 4222

April 1, 1977 Tape 1511 IB-1 ¥!?_. PECKFfiRD: but there are possibilities of forty per cent. There are none of them put in there by the Cerrnan co~pany yet. So there are big problems on the national and international scene. But of more importance to us - and I am sure to the hon. member - would be the environmental impact study as it relates to the Kitts-Michelin area in particular, and, you know, the status of those.

And as I understand it the first environmental study,~.rhich is being revised,and the second one whtch is going ahead simultaneously -- with the revision of the first,are to be completed in the next month or two. I also understand that Brinnex has sort of enlarged the whole scope of the environmental thing and is really putting a lot of work into it. And they are also doing the sort of final economic feasibility study of the ore 'reserves.

But the whole question of uranium technology and standards as it relates to the export of uranium,as it relates to developing ore bodies is a pretty compl~~ one and one that is still developing and revolving in the world. So I would say given the national and international problems, the problems also specifically with the ·economic feasibHity, ~1ith the I environmental impacts and so on,that there is going to be quite sorre time yet before any final go ahead is either comtemplated by Brinnex or/and hy the government of the Province and Atomic Energy of Canada. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR..

SPEAKER: Order 7, Bill No. 25. Th~-_-adjourned debate on Bill No. 25. The hon. Minister of Pural and Industrial Development. MR.. L UNDRI GA...lll : }~r. Speaker, I have not got very much more to say. Last evening we were sort of outlining for the House some aspects of Bill 25 which is to give House approval for an agreement ~rhich exists basically in the simplest t~rms between the governi!!ent and National Sea for the construction of a new plant and the management and operations and marketing of the product of the new plant at Burgee.

And of course, bearing in mind the history of the existing facilities.,! have tried to trace the origin of government involvement, I have tried to trace the 4223

April 1, 1977 Tape 1511 IB-2 ~1'p. . LTJNDPIGA."'': relationship between Burgeo Fish Industries, Nat~take,Burgeo Leasing and ,the various other companies that have been involve~. Coastal Realties,for example.,was a company which was a Spencer Lake Company that owned the real estate in Burgeo,and to try to tie all those together and to see how they have all melted into an agreement for a new plant.

I tried to point out the cost factors, the dollar factors. ' I tried to indicate that the Burgeo Leasing Limited will be fifty per -- cent owned by the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador and of National Sea, fifty per cent even-steven owned by the government and this particular company. I tried to indicate that the government will be putting in $3.5 million in the form of a first mortgage on the facilities at Burgee, the new facilities. That there -.;.7ill be a DREE grant of $3.5 million in round figures.

There "'rould be maybe almost an equivalent amount of money put in by the government in the form of a second mortgage. There is a formula indicated in the agreement which indicates the repayment

schedule for the first mortgage •. The first mortgage is jointly a first mortgage with National and the government for $4,450,000 to be paid over a period of eighteen years at the nonn.al government interest rate. As ~Yell,_the repayment of the second mortgage is defined in here and really in essence what it amounts to is the government saying- repayment of the second mortf!age ~dll take place on an annual basis with equal installments assuming there is a profit from the company. And if there is not a prvfit, the repayment is not cumulative.

So really in essence each year that second mortgage will be written down. Secondly, the bill contains an agreement between Burgeo Leasing and National Sea for the manageroent and the operations and the marketing of the produce with the fee

schedule indicated there as well. So that there is a $75,000 minimum management fee, maximum ceiling during the lifetime of the agreement can be $225,000.,

April.l, 1977, Tape 1512, Page 1 -- ab MR. LtJNDRIGAN: assuming a profitable operation. During the years - I will give an . indication of National during the years that we have had almost precisely the same type of agreement with them, of course with no ceiling on it, but the last couple of years there was no need of any ceiling because there was no profit but we anticipate things will improve down the road. But from 1972 through until 1976, only once,and that was in 1974 did we pay in excess of the $75 thousand management fee. That year we paid $99,512, and that was when we had a profit that year of $209,000.

We d.o not anticipate, we hope - we do not anticipate but we hope - very quickly and very soon the management fee that we will be paying National will be in excess of the $75 thousand minimum because that would mean in essence, Mr. Speaker, that we would be making a profit. The fee will be paid on a 40 per cent profit basis, 40 per cent of the net profits and that means we would be making dollars our- selves as well. So that is the - r.1R. NEARY: What happens if there is a deficit down in the new plant? MR. LUNDRIGAN: If there is a deficit,the National Sea are guaranteed a minimum management fee of $75 thousand.

If there is a deficit the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador will be doing the same as they have been for the last number of years. ~'fe hope that that will not be the case. Now, Mr. Speaker, maybe just in sort of - MR. NEARY: It is a great deal for National Sea. MR. SPEAKER (Young) : Order, please! 4225 ...:. -.

April 1, 1977, Tape 1512, Page 2 --'apb MR. LUNDRIGAN: ~tr. Speaker, the option for us is to manage it, to run it, to operate it, to sell the fish on our own. MR. NEARY: You may as well. Why be giving them $75 thousand and maybe plus 5 per cent for nothing? MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman who is a great friend of mine from away back - I maybe know his brother a little better, the professor Neary who is a great political scientist - I sort of know from his brother more than himself,philosophically, that they have great strong socialist · leanings and I would be disappointed if the hon. member did not project the kind of attitude he is projecting right now. getting a good deal - MR. NEARY: Our feeling is that we are What a vicious attack. MR. LUNDRIGAN: - vicious attack - a good deal from National. It is the best we can come up with.

We are dealing with a large,effective company and we think this is a good deal for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, bearing in mind our responsibility to the community of Burgee. Now just a little

summary in conclusion. The hon. member, who will be speaking,will be raising questions about trawlers. that will be the burden of his remarks about what lies down the road and I think he is already aware of our attitude there, that there has to be a lot of early negotiations on that matter because that is of prime importance once we get our plantin place and, of course, that has now taken on significance because we will be looking at the trawler fleet next September or October, not necessarily being required, but certainly . fo~ National. to be responsible 4226

April 1, 1977, Tape 1512, Page 3 -- apb l1R.. LUNDRIGAN: for shipping fish into Burgee officially the latter part of 1978 and we hope some­ thing of that nature can happen in 1977. On the new plant, Hr. Speaker, I would just like to indicate that the date on the new plant -- we have awarded contracts,and there is no need for me to itemize all of the contracts, there are eight contracts that have been awarded in Burgee for approximately $4 million to date. That is the number of tenders that have been called and contracts have been awarded. All of those have not been completed.

We have had, for example, a contract for the wharf and site preparations $1.3 million. That is approximately 90 per cent completed. The cold storage construction, $5SO,OOO,approximately completed. We can go on down the line from there. The construction of the fish processing area and offices $1.7 million, and that is about 40 per cent ·completed. There have been a number of purchases, i>aiiet · trucks, . . . hydrolic lift trucks and the like. Summing it all up, approximately $3 million of the $4 million contract awarded have been completed.

That is tbe amount of money that has pretty well been ·~xpencie~----~ to date in Burgee. There is another million dollars that has not been completed yet. Some of it has been delayed a bit by the weather conditions this time of the year. We will be calling further tenders, hopefully all of the tenders,for that particular construction during this present year. That is going to be a big boost for the local community and it is going to be a boost for the Province as a whole because local construction companies will be getting a lot of activity and, of course, the work force in Burgee and a number 4227 --

April 1, 1977, Tape 1512 Page 4 -- apb .4R. LUNDRIGAN: of people from around the Province will be getting jobs. So in round figures I expect we will be calling maybe as much as $3 million more contracts during the 1977 season. We are looking forward, as I indicated before, to a completion date of 4228 --

April 1, 1977 Tape no. 1513 Page 1 - MS Mr. Lundrigan. September of 1978. Now that project is certainly working well. We are satisfied that we have had good bids; we are satisfied with the qualitv of the work. We will have a good solid facility that will be a lifetime facility and in that respect, of course, ever_vbody is quite satisfied with it. Now that is the extent of my remarks. I am going to talk on for a few seconds while the member gets back, because I understand he has gone out. Here he comes so, Mr. Speaker, that is the sum and substance . of it ..

There are a lot of technical questions that could be raised when we get into the clause by clause, and I hooe members will get involved. Mr. Speaker, there is a whole pile of stuff. I will just throw a few things across the bow of the members of the House so they can raise questions on it if they want to. The plant that we are building is not a plant that is just going to be a fish plant to do the normal processing.

We hope it has enough versatility - and I am speaking a language that I am only able to quote from the experts and the technical people - we hope we have enough versatility to be able to modify the capability of the plant to accommodate any kind of species that might be able to be processed. I know that we have not given up and neither has National Sea on the herring potentjal.

Now it is a little bit of a sad story and maybe it is indicative of a lack of knowledge we have of herring, because almost as soon as that big plant,by the way,was completed in Burgeo, over $3 million- I cannot quote -yes, I can, I can quote the figures. It is in . the balance sheet of Burgeo Leasing. I believe it was $3.2 million if I am not mistaken. Three point two millions of dollars were spent with a DREE grant, a very substantial DREE grant in Burgeo for the new Nat~i~ke i~cility:and that facility really was 4229 -.

Apri 1 1, 1977 Tape no. 1513 Page 2 - ms l~r. Lundri gan. never used. That was a facility that was built to accommodate the production of herring, and maybe I should say reduction of herring, which is not a happy kind of situation to be involved in in a hung~y world. And in any event almost as soon as the thing was completed, the resource of herring was depleted. And maybe it is an indication of the fact that we have not learned a lot about some of our species.

Scientists I know in British Columbia years ago, ..) -- ------ -- --- - twelve or fourteen years ago, predicted this great massive herring resource that was totally unable to be depleted with normal catching capability and, of course, they almost destroyed the herring resource. In Iceland the same thing happened. And, of course, on the Southwest Coast we had the same thing. MR. STRACHAN: And Norway. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Noway,the han. member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) indicates as well.

And _it is our feeling that that stock will replenish itself, and we are hoping that down the road in years to come and ~tarting with this present year, with research and looking at new facilities, new species, our new processing capability that we can diversify the processing in the particular plant, and I must say that if the Minister of Fisheries were here he w~·uld indicate in all plants,to the point where we can get involved in a healthier economy, not totally dependent on one or two species, which is always teRding to be an unstable · economy even if it is a good year or a qood two or three years because you are open to the fluctuations of the marketplace in or two areas - almo~t like linerboard compa~ed with a craft paper, a finished paper product, where you are open to the marketplace in a very direct manner.

So these are the kinds of thinqs, r·1r. Speaker, that we want to be cognizant of and to pursue ourselves as a government and, of course, we are very, very pleased with this, and we hope that han. members will be most aware of it, and that is the end of my remarks. 4230

Apri 1 1, 1977 Tape no. 1513 Page 3 - ms MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREr1I ER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, if I may, there are a few ~ occasions in one's life and during the course of our work when we have moments of great - I suppose a traumatic experience for all of us - I just left the House to go downstairs to meet this year's 'Timmy and Tammy' who are now in the gallery, and I might say, Sir, in paying tribute and I am sure I am speakinq on behalf of all the House, and the Leader of the Opposition would want to do the same - that Kimberley White from Twillingate . .. ~ .. and Chr1 s ?rser, Sir, w~o is. nine years old from St ~ .t_ohn 's. being 'Tammy and Timmy' respectively, meeting young people of this sort in the society we live in, particularly in the enivronments of this House when we realize that all of us here represent the people of our Province, it is the 4231 ·-

April 1, 1977.

Tape 1514 RH - 1 PREMIER MOORES: courage of young men and young women like this; it is the example they set for the handicapped and all of us in society, whether we be handicapped or not, the example they set to the young people of the Province, the example they set to the elderly, we want to thank them sincerely on behalf of all the people of Newfoundland, thank them sincerely as members of this House of Assembly for being representatives of the Easter Seal Campaign this year, being the young gentleman and the young lady that they are and being such a tremendous credit to the society in which they live.

Certainly, Sir, as Premier and on behalf of the House I have great honour in doing just that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The ho~. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, it is with the utmost humility, really, that I rise to add a few words in support of what the Premier has said. I think the Premier's words, Sir, have been eloq\len t and I know they were heart felt. Courage, Sir, is to my mind, perhaps the supreme virtue, the courage to do what one believes in the face of adversity, Sir, is something which we must all admire.

But those of us who think we know something of courage, Sir, must· realize how little we really know when we see people like Kimberley and Christopher, Sir, who have handicaps~ are very great handicaps but they struggle and they overcome those handicaPs~ Sir, with courage that can but be a shinti_ing -example to-_every'!>ody to this Province, Sir, t.7hf>n you see two younger people like this, two children, one eight, I believe the Premier said and the other nine years of age, both small children, Sir, meeting adversity and conquering it, Sir, it is a shinning --- e~ample to all of us in this Province.

I think that we in the House should be grateful that we have the opportunity to salute these two young people, Sir, and to salute the cause which they represent. The Easter Seal 4232 --

April 1, 1977. Tape 1514 RH- 2 HR. ROBERTS: Campaign should command the support of every citizen of this Province, Sir. There are many charitable appeals in Newfoundland the course of the year, all of th·em have merit. ut, Sir, none has more merit than this. I think, Sir, it is not a matter of Timmy and Tammy being honoured by the House welcoming them, Sir. I think that we in this House should consider we have been honoured by Timmy and Tammy coming to see us and giving us this example of courage, Sir. I second the Premier's words, Sir. SOME RON. MEMBERS : . Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, it is very difficult to follow

an act like that, not the one by the minister but the one by the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition,and more to the point, the act by the two young people. That kind of courage is something that inspires all of us, and makes being here and being a part of this Province worthwhile when we realize that those people are being given opportunities that heretofore were not nearly as available to that kind of person,or a .. person with that kind of handicap: Mr. Speaker, I want to say a few words on the bill. Last night the minister was in a kind of a tender mood, a bit of a tender mood. AN RON.

MEMBER: What was that? MR. SIMMONS: I say last night the minister was in a bit of a tender mood. I suppose he had every right to be after yesterday afternoon. The temptation is to respond,to tell him he has got even less integrity and that kind of thing. But I do not believe that. I do not believe that. I also do not believe that is what we are here for. The temptation is to respond to the charge that

April 1, 1977 Tape 1515 MR. SIMMONS: "If we had to wait until the member for Burgee­ Bay d'Espoir gives positive information concerning the Burgee · fish operation we will wait till doomsday." The temptation is to respond to that kind of statement, Mr. Speaker. I shall do so only to a degree. I shall not respond with the invective that accompanied the delivery of that statement last evening. I shall respond in this way though. I say to the minister he may be right.

It may well be Eoomsday before you get from this member the kind of detailed information about Burgeo and the Burgee Fish Plant that the minister was able to give. I will JM - 1 tell you why, Mr. Speaker, it may be Doomsday Not at all because I am reticent to give that kind of information but because I can not get it to give because the minister will not give it to me. MR. NOLAN: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: I called- I will npt name names. It is a gentleman in the public service. I called a senior official of that minister's department on March 2nd and I said to that individual almost in these words.

As you know I am the member up the coast, Burgee- Bay d'Espoir 1 and I would like to have an update. I did not want it for any particular reason except the overall reason that from time to ti~e I h~ve · called various departments of government. I called officials in the Department of Fisheries and say,you know,what is going on about bait depots. I called the gentleman in charge of the dental programme in the minister's department, Department of Health~and say what is the latest on the dental programme and I do this as a matter of course. I suppose most members of the House of Assembly do that kind of thing.

There is hardly a week goes by but you say to yourself I wonder what is happening on the possibility of a dentist for Burgeo. I think I will pick up the phone and call so-and-so down in Health. Or what is happening on the timber problem as it relates to Conne River, Native Enterprises and Ronald Forest Products. I think I will see the minister in the House this 4234

April 1, 1977 Tape 1515 MR. S~ONS: afternoon and speak to him for a moment and the former Minister of Forestry and the present ~Unister of Manpower knows I did exactly that on a number of occasions. JM- 2 I have had occasion last week to go over to the Minister of Finance and ask him some questions quite privately about when he expected to bring in the estimates, I do not mean the estimates but the Interim Supply and the Budget,and I do this as a matter of course to keep updated.

And so in a routine inquiry I called tqe senior official of the Department of Industrial Development and said to him, "Would you mind giving me an update'?" He said, "Well I am not in·_a position to do it now." · I said, "No, of course. I realize you are busy and you cannot do it off the top of your head. Would you undertake to do it in the next two or three days?" Fine, no problem. That was March 2nd. What is today? MR. NEARY: The 1st of April.· April Fools Day. MR. S~ONS: The 1st of April. April Fools Day with fifty minutes to go. April 1st.

So Monday would have been the 28th, the 21st, the 14th, on about the 14th or the 15th of March the minister, in other words twelve or thirteen days after I had called his official the minister made a public statement - not just a statement that a tender was being called but a statement which really was - which had to be, I do not mean had to be,but which probably was tiggered by my question because it was a complete update of the Burgeo situation. You know,cornplete in the sense that it was complete enough for the average layman.

It did not give any technical details and that kind of thing,but it was a fairly comprehensive update of the Burgeo situation. Now, Mr. Speaker, I say the minister was ri~ht when he says you might not hear from me ever in terms of detailed information. MR. NOLAN: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: Because, Mr. Speaker, the minister is sitting on the 4235 ...:.

April 1, 1977 Tape 1515 JM - 3 MR. SIMMONS: information, like he is sitting on the information of the Rural Development Authority. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: I said earlier in this House only three or four weeks ago that I am -- -· 423n

April 1, 1977 Tape no. 1516 Page 1 - MS Mr. Simmons. particularly concerned about three departments of government insofar as they apparently have instructions not to give out one wittle, not one tittle, not one dot of information to a politician on this side of the House without checking first with their minister. And that is one of the departments I name, because that is exactly, I believe, what the instruction is~ Do not give them the time gf day.

I mention another department·of government,by way of example,where I called for some routine information that had been public for nine or ten months, ·and I only got it after asking three or four times, and after the minister himself delivered it to me, for which I thank him. I object not to that. But I object to a syst~ that is so copper-fastened, so restrictive, that we on this side of the House cannot even get public information, cannot get the time of day without ministerial approval. So the minister is right. The minister is right.

It may be a long time before I will be able to stand in this House~ certainly while I am on this side of the House, a long time before I will be able to give the kind of comprehensive information to the House that the minister gave as much as I would like to, Mr. Speaker.

And I would say to him that if he had liked me to be more positive about Burgeo Fish .- and by the way,he did me the discourtesy of guessing ahead of time how positive I might or might not be before he had heard me say one word on the subject~ but that is a~other issue - but if he would like . . me to more positive on Burgee Fish Industries, more positive on Burgee Leasing, more positive on the fish plant in Burgeo, more positive about his Rural Development Authority, I say to him what I have said to him already for the- umpteent~ time, give me the information on which to base my conclusions. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: And I submit to him my conclusions may well be more positive than they sometimes are, because it is very difficult in the absence of solid information to get excited about things. It is 4237

April 1, 1977 Tape no. 1516 Page 2 - MS Mr. Simmons. very difficult to resist the temptation to be suspicious about what is going on if you do not have information. Indeed,in our experiences at . large,in family life and community life, in social groups, we all know that in the absence of information there gets substituted rumour and su£picion. And it is only natural.

It can happen in this · circumstance where I as a politician, an elected official, who is most interested in what is going on with respect to the Burgee fish plant, most interested in what is going on with respect to the Rural Development Authority and its possible achievements, most interested ~n these matters, it is conceivable if in the absence of information I get a bit suspicious. · So I say to the minister before moving on - if he wants me to make some more speeches that he might well approve of, give me some information. Let the facts speak for themselves.

If a positive speech is what is required, I will be the first to make it. Mr. Speaker, as I sav, the temptation is great to launch into a vindictive, spiteful, childish tirade. MR. NEARY: ~1r. Speaker, if my hon. friend would allow me for a moment, Sir. There is -no quorum in the House. The han. gentleman is makinq such an excellent speech I thought we might get the members in from the highways and byways, Sir. SOME HON. ~1EMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: A quorum call. MR. NEARY: Get them in their seats where they are supposed to-·be --an_d :~·- what they are getting paid for. 4238

April 1, 1977, Tape 1517, Page 1 -- apb .HR. SPEAKER: I am informed by the Clerk that there is a quorum present. The hon. the member f_or Burgee - Bay d'Espoir. MR. SH1MONS : The temptation to reply with a vindictive, spiteful attack will be resisted,it being Friday morning and we having more important things to do. I shll get on with the subject at hand, the bill, Eill No. 2S,which would ratify and confirm and adopt an agreement between the government and Burgee Fish Industries, Burgee Leasing, Nat-Lake and other companies that had some interest in the several matters at hand.

I want to join the minister in his unqualified tribute to the work force at Burgee. With the single 'big exception, big historic exception of 1971, the Burgee plant has not known much dm-m time due to a strike situation. Very little. That is not to say they are not people who stand up for their rights. They have a way of making their point and getting their point across. I refer to the single big exception, it was an historic exception - remember the bumper stickers 11 It all started at Burgee"? It did, in a lot of ways. MR. MURPHY:L What is the population of Burgee? HR.

SIMMONS: About 3,000 in rough terms, 3,200. It all started at Burgee. I hope in 1977 we can adopt that little cliche again to refer to a different set of events. I hope that"it all started in Burgee;' that ., particular term or phrase,can be used to refer to an economic resurgence, a res~rgence in the fishery develop- ment of this Province. I hope that the mi. ~ lions of dollars invested by both levels of government, totalling about $10 million, about $6.5 by the provincial government, the balance by the federal government, I hope this investment, Mr. Speaker, it is that, it is that, I hope that investment

April 1, 1977, Tape 1517, Page 2 -- apb MR. SI11MONS: will signal the - beginning of a whole new period in the fisheries of this Province, in developing the potential of those fisheries, in providing the job opportunities which are there to be had given some circumstances, given an additional catch capability which we lack in a number of parts of this Province and in a number of fish plants. I will come back to catch capability perhaps a little later on. Mr.

Speaker, just think of the possibilities now with the 200 mile limit, with the spanking new fish plant at Burgee which will be ready for ~pening in September of 1978, scarcely eighteen or twenty months away. Think of the possibilities, not only ~or the future of Burgee but as the beginning of a positive endeavour in this Province, an . endeavour characterized not by a continuing apology for the fishery as we have know too long in this Province, but an endeavour characterized by a willingness on the part of government of both levels, 4240

April 1, 1977. Tape 1518 RH - 1 MR. SIMMONS: on the part of community groups and individuals, on the part of all agencies which have an interest, endeavour characterized by a willingness to make this enterprise work. One of the great puzzles, Mr. Speaker, for anybody who is even a casual student of Newfoundland history is how we have managed as a group of people to so badly bungle over 400 years what potentially was a virtual gold mine.

Here we are sitting~as we have for all those years,right on the edge of the richest food resource anywhere in the world and somehow,it must have taken a lot of work and ingenuity to put it off, somehow we have managed over the years to do the job of p'rosecuting the fishery considerably less well than those who have come to our shores from other parts. I am thinking of the Portuguese, the Norwegians, the Basque people in earlier days, the Russians, the West Germans. It is a puzzle. I am not expert in the area to diagnose the reasons.

I will take a jab at it and say that one of the reasons, I think the reason I am about to give is pertinent to whether. or not we make that enterprise work, that fishing enterprise at this time in our history, I think part of the problem has been one of attitude.

I grew up in an industrial town of sorts, Bishops Falls .Bythe standards of the late 1940's and early 1950's, Bishops Falls with its hydro electricity and its paved streets and two railways, one behind the house and one in front of the house,and its water and sewer and its job opportunities all in the industrial sector, either in a pulp mill at one end of town or in a railway station at the other end of town, I grew up in that kind of community which by Newfoundland's standards of the late 1940's could be called an industrial community, its nearness to the population centre of Grand Falls- Windsor, gave it a quasi urban flavour by Newfoundland standards in that we had in that area several thousands of people within short commuting distance.

My people, and I not only mean my immediate parents, but my neighbours were 4241 -·

April 1, 1977. Tape 1518 RH- 2 MR. SIMMONS: people who had been lifted out of the bays, Notre Dame Bay particularly, Trinity Bay also to a large degree,and some other parts of the Province,and had come from fishing traditions for the most part, the generation before me were very much part of fishing families. My father's people were fishermen and boat builders in Lewisporte and Horwood and Herring Neck. My mother's people were fishermen and schooner operators in Triton and Card's Harbour in Green Bay. And I just use these two, my immediate parents,as examples.

But they were representatives of a generation of people, the generation immediately before mine,who came from the fishing coves and out harbours of the Northeast Coast. The point I make, Mr. Speaker, is that despite the fishing tradition of which the generation previous to mine was so part of in that they grew up in it, they turned over the fish to dry, they spread it on the flakes, they picked it up, they 4242 .....

April 1, 1977, Tape 1519, Page 1 -- apb MR. S I:HMONS : stored it, they cut out the cod tongues,and I suppose sold them for fifteen cents a pound in those days, but they were immersed .physically and _emotionally in the fishing tradition of this Province. My father, when he was fourteen years of age,went to the Labrador and had three seasons down there, at first as a - I think they used to call him a p~rt shareman and then as a full shareman. And these people knew fishing first hand.

They were an int~gral part of the fishing tradition of this Province and yet, and here is my point, and yet my generation, my generation was taught, not explicitly, but the message was always clear, my generation was taught to abhor the fishery, to shy away from it as something that was second class, dirty and indicative of poverty. Hy generation was taught that if you were going to climb the economic ladder and the social ladder you do not do it through the fishery. It was ingrained in us, ~n~rained in my generation and subsequent generations. I do not know why. . .

I do remember that as a school superintendent, about 1971 or 1972, I had occasion to take with me to a small community in my han. friend's district, as it then was, the member for Green Bay, now I believe in Baie Verte White Bay,the community of Snook's Arm, I had with me two senior officials of the Department of Education a?d a couple of other educational . officials from the Denominational Education Committee and another agency, I beli~ve the university.

The five of us went into a school and how well I remember the look on the face of one of those officials when he was told by a student in grade VI in answer to a question that the gentleman had put, that that student in grade VI was planning to be a fisherman. The look on the fellow's 4243

April 1, 1977, Tape 1519, Page 2 -- apb t·lR. SIN~·10NS: face, the educated fellow's face,was one of complete dismay and disgust. I could see written all across his face as he looked at the poor young fellow in grade VI, the gentleman obviously figured that the school system had failed this young fellow altogether. And that was the attitude, and that unfortunately is the attitude that is being portrayed, that somehow to go into the fishery is to grab on to the last hope, is to be a failure, is to chose the only option. I do not know why that has been the case, Mr. Speaker, but it has beeri.

On a more encouraging note, I believe that is turning around. I . ' believe that is changing. I find that among young people, I am thinking of the men particularly in their twenties an4 early thirties, I find there is real attraction for them to the fishing industry. I get a number of calls, as I am sure other colleagues in this House do,from men who say in one form or another, How do I get into the fishery? And they are not always people looking for a free ride either, Mr. Speaker.

That is another attitude we have to break down in this Province, that somehow there are those who think that everybody else is looking for a free ride. I do not believe that, Mr. Speaker. I found the other night in Bay d'Espoir when we had that great meeting with 500 or 550 people present that there were people there who were saying basically, Give us a job. Give me the choice between welfare and a job and I will take a job. Give me the choice between unemployment insurance and a job and I will take a job.

They say it is an ill wind that blows no good, or every cloud has a silver lining, or perhaps the silver lining, perhaps the silver lining in this very severe 4244

Apri 1 1, 1977 Tape no. 1520 Page 1 - MS Mr. Simmons. unemployment situation we face right now, this desperate economic situation we face as a peoo 1 e in this Pro vi nee. -- perhaps the silver lining is that people are being obl~ged being forced.to rethink some of their values and, some of their attitudes. Perhaps the silver lining is that people at large are realizing that government cannot solve all their problems and that in many cases the solution to the problem, including the problem of how to get a job or where to get a job, in many cases the solution to that problem begins with the individual himself.

If that is happening, Mr. Speaker, if there has been that change in attitude, then I say perhaps even this desperate,disastrous economic situation in which we find ourselves now does have a silver lining. You know, Mr. Speaker, it is very difficult., I listened with real care to the minister, and I cannot ask him to listen to me, but it is very distracting the conversation he has got going with a·gentleman there, ve~v distracting, because I can hear the conversation. I mean no offense, but it is a little distracting. AN HON. MEMBER: The han. member should have more sense. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins):Order, please!

I think the han. member has indicated that he would like a lower level of conversation in the House. I am sure han. members will grant him his wish. The han. member. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to come now back more closely to the Burgee situation itself. I talked for a moment or two just then about the larger provincial situation, because I believe what is happening in Burgeo and what can happen in Burgeo has real implications for the Province. The minister asked last night, in not so many words, but the essence of, I believe, his remarks at one point were, Is Burgeo a wise decision?

And I can see, Mr. Speaker, that that decision that Cabinet had to make would have been a fairly rough 4245 ...:. --

April 1; 19n Tape no. 1520 Page 2 - ms ~1 r. S ill1Tions . decision. I can see that. You would expect me as the member for the area to say that the right decision was made, and I sa.v it, but I also· say it because I believe it, because I believe Burgee and this bill represent exactly the kind of partnership between government and private enterprise and the local work force,exactly the kind of partnership that is needed if we are going to put our act together economically in this Province. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, a quorum call, please! MR. SPEAKER (Or. Collins): A quorum call. 424R -. .·

April 1, 1977 Tape 1521 JM- 1 MR. SPEAKER: Order please! I have asked the clerk of the House to count the House. A quorum is pres ·ent. The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR-~ NEARY: How much time do yo~ have? MR. SIMMONS: I do not know. No, no, L am replying to a government order so - MR-.· MURPHY: Unlimited time~ eh? MR. SIMMONS: I am replying to a government order see. Yes. Mr.

Speaker, I am replying to a government order and by the rules I have· unlimited · -time-~1 - assure the members that I have no intentions to talk at any great length and I would expect to answer the Minister of Rural Development, Industrial Development I would probably be finished within the next fifteen to twenty-five minutes. I do not have any intention to talk at any great length. Mr. Speaker, the Burgeo undertaking>this partnership between government, p~ivate industry and the local people I believe is the very kind of partnership that we are going to need to forge more and more in this Province. MR.

DOODY: One of my better efforts. MR. SIMMONS: I will come back to the minister and when he paid his supreme role in this one. Perhaps I should do it now as just an interjection. It was sometime in September 1975 as I remember it and it took him three days to do it. One of the few Cabinet ministers of any party that spent three consecutive days in Burgeo I would submit and - MR. DOODY: MR.. SIMMONS : But anyway he had three delightful days in the Burgeo Motel and he needed the rest, Mr. Speaker, because having spoken to that great audience that night before MR. DOODY: What was there, thirty-eight people? MR.

SIMMONS: Twenty-eight. 4247

April 1, 1977 Tape 1521 JM- 2 MR. DOODY: Twenty-eight. MR. SIMMONS: Tw~?nty-eight. T~venty-eight people. - . . MR. DOODY: - ~tn.all in n~bers but enthusi _astic. MR. SIMMONS: But anyway the minister came in albeit during an election to make some announcements and he made those announcenents but I will say for the minister that he is one of the few people, one of the very few people that has such a thick volume as proof that his promise was carried out. Where is there such wordy -- vindication that the minister is a man of his word. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DOODY: It is a heavy piece of equipment. MR.

SIMMONS: It is a heavy · piece of equipment. Only twenty-eight heard him that night, Mr. Speaker, and some who heard may not have believed because I had arranged for some to be there to see what he was saying so they could tell me after. Perhaps not all of the twenty-eight who were there believed. But, Mr. Speaker, to his credit there is now proof that what the minister was ' saying had substance and more than the twenty-eight will benefit _from the legislation before us. MR. DOODY: I ~ _ proud of _it. No matter how they voted they will get the benefit. I have to say something. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, the minister has never been stuck for something to say and he usually says it very well, as he did that particular night ,I .he~rd second hancf. .· Mr. Speaker, seriously though the Burgeo combination is a good one and the minister last night was wondering out loud about whether it was a wise decision. I do not think he was implying it was not. I think the government made a good decision on this one. I think the minister is prepared to stand by it.

But I could see that it is a difficult, j r~ugh d~ci~ion for people in Cabinet to make, particularly people who have no immediate vested interest in the Burgeo situation. you know they are not the member there and they have nobody in their caucus who is the member there. ~24S

April 1, 1977 Tape No. 1521 JM- 3 MR. PECKFORD: One thing about this government no ,: politca1 - MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, even if you try and say nice things you cannot get away with it in this Rouse you know. It -­ discourages one. It discourages one from lev~lling you see. MR. MURPRY: There will be eleven question marks after that quotation I bet you in Hansard. MR. SIMMONS: Are YC?U suggesting _I help Harry edit the transcript or something? Mr. Speaker, I recognize that the decision to inake ·­ the ·a:g.r·ement at Burgeo is a rough one but it is the kind of decision we a:re goihg ·to need more and more from governmentt not government getting into the management of enterprises --

April 1, 1977. Tape 1522 RH- 1 MR. Sll1MONS: but gove~ment inj~cting wh.ere necessary the required encouragement, be it financial encouragement and the promotional experti se, the leadership MR. NEARY: This crowd, National "Sea, needs promotional expertise according to Peter Newman. It needs all the expertise it can get. MR. SIMMONS: Before we get bogged down, Mr.

Speaker, into the minutiae of the agreement, which I believe we will have a chance to address ourselves to during committee stage, I believe the overall concept that we are dealing with here is a very good one and I would be less than honest if I did not say that. It is a good one. Government at once is moving out of the management of an enterprise that I have always felt can be much better managed by private enterprise anyway so I ~hink that is a step in the right direction. Government is injecting encouragement - MR. STRACHAN: To a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has been raised. MR.

STRACHAN: The hon. member has the right to be heard in silence. There is a great deal of chatter on the other side of the House. MR. MURPHY: · we can almost hear him on this side. MR. ·PECKFORD: To that point of order. Mr. Speaker, I can fully concur with the hon. member that the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir should be heard in silence and I guess it is because there are a lot more people on this side than there are on the other. That is causing trouble. MR. SIMMONS: A point well made, Sir. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member for Eagle River(Mr.

Strachan) is having difficulty hearing his colleague. I would ask hon. members to act accordingly. The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. 4250 -. .·

April 1, 1977 Tape No. 1522 RH - 2 MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, the formula used here I hope will get adopted, applied elsewhere. I hope that one of the first places, if .! I might digress just by way of example I hope one of the first places it gets applied is in Stephenville. ,. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: I hope that government will realize in Stephenville that the formula used in Burgeo, that part of the formula which says let us get out of trying to run a business that private people can run --a lot better, I hope government will look long and hard at applying that technique to Steph _enville.

I commend it. ! _.do not think it is a new thought for government, but I urge its adoption upon government. Mr. Speaker, I want to come for a moment or two to the matter of catch capability, the matter of how we are going to get the fish to put through that plant. Right now at Burgeo, Mr. Speaker, we have five very rundown, very obsolete trawlers. MR. DOODY: Four and-a-half. MR. SIMMONS: Yes, I am _talking- I am just looking at the names - you are more right - MR. DOODY: Counting the one with the rotten bottom, four and-a-half. · MR. SIMMONS: They are all here anyway, but they are in the bill, Mr.

Speaker, the names I get them all mixed up because they are so - MR. DOODY: The Burhound and the Burhawk - MR. SIMMONS: Yes the minister is on - but anyway, Mr. Speaker, the names are there - here we are the Burhound, the Burhawk, the Burfish, the Gulf Gerd, and the Ross Lion, five ships that have served well and long, and that is their problem. That is their p~oblem. .They have seen their day, and it is again a real tribute to the willingness of the fellows at Burgee to do a day's work, that they ·continue to go to sea in those five trash cans. AN RON.

MEMBER: Do the national still put a couple of their side trawlers into action? MR. SIMMONS: I do not know offhand - MR. DOODY: There were three - 4251

April 1, 1977 Tape 1522 RH - 3 MR. SIMMONS: Yes, I do not really know. I do not know. The minister, he and I with some others talked about this whole question a few days ago and he is probably in a better position - __ MR. DOODY: That Ross Lion is going to sink and take the wharf with it. it one of these days. MR. SIMMONS: If the wharf does not sink first. MR. DOODY: That is right. MR. SIMMONS: Or if the freezi~g plant, the old free•ing plant does not sink, it sunk several inches or two or three feet there a year or so ago. But the new plant will take care _of that, Mr. Speaker.

The new plant though will not take care of the shortage of catch capability. I was grateful the other day that the Minister of Fisheries and the Minister of Industrial Development took time from the House . actually,to meet with me and to meet with representatives of the Fishermen's Local at Burgeo. I think that we had a rather productive . meeting. ~t. was a good exchange of ideas and I learned a number of things, thanks to the minister and his colleague in Industrial Development.

And one of the things I did learn is that government is keeping itself pretty well briefed on the current situation insofar -as it affects 4252

Apri 1 1, 1977 Tape no. 1523 Page 1 - MS Mr. Sinmons. catch capability. I say to the ~~i ni ster of Fisheries that sometimes the information which he and his colleagues have a_cc~~s to is often unnecessarily closeted and kept to one's self not · because he is a secre~ive man but somehow there is never the occasion it seems to get this information out, and perhaps the minister ought to be looking at ways as a matter of routine of informing members of the House. He cannot make a ministerial statement every day.

But, for example,~~ 'was at the Fisheries Conference the other day - ~a~d this may be a reflection on me more than on the minister, I do not know - -~ut_ - :.f,t .~as ~t : the ·Fisheries Conference two weeks ago that I learned for the first time that his department has a newsletter. And you know the obvious question is, Why, as a matter of routine, could not ever.v member of the House be put on that mailing list? MR. W. CARTER: We have only put out two. We have already sent you two. We have sen~ you a copy. MR. SIMl~ONS: A decision has been made~ now. MR. W. CARTER: Of course. MR. SIMMONS: Yes, I see.

Well the minister says, Of course, but I have not yet received it, and there \'/ere two previous ones I gather. MR. W. CARTER: One. MR. SIMMONS: . Just one previous. That was the second one that we saw at the conference. And again just as a digression, Mr. Speaker, I believe all departments of government - MR. W. CARTER: We also sent a transcript of what went on at the conference. MR. SIMMONS: is excellent. The Fisheries Conference. That is excell.nt. That I look f?rwa~d to that, because there was quite an exchange of ideas at that conference. Mr.

Speaker, just to make a point that perhaps all ministers of government ought to look at information that is going out regularly and make it available to members of the House. for example, the fish handbook that the minister's department

April 1, 1977 Tape no. 1523 Page 2 - mw Mr. Sirm1ons. put out before he took over, I think, during Mr. Crosbie's tenure as minister. I heard about it. Some fishermen in Francois got a copy. And I had to call up one of the officials in Fisheries and say, Would you send me over a copy of the handbook? Now that handbook~ while I am not a fisherman, contains a lot of information about which I am asked questions from day to day as a member. And I can often feel some routine information type questjons for the minister's department. Now I am not working for that department.

But if a guy from Francois calls me and says, How do I apply for this or how do I do this? Well if I have the information at my fingertips I am not going to say to him, Well, you know, go ask somebody else. I will give it to him. But if I do not have it, obviously I can only refer him to the appropriate department. And I do make the point, Mr. Speaker, that I do n~t believe government minister's have been nearly enough aware of their responsibility to keep members of this House informed. MR.--COLLINS: MR. SIMMONS: l·/hat has this got to do with the bill? Mr. Speaker, it has a lot to do with the bill.

It has a whole lot to do with the bill, Mr. Speaker. And I think that the minister knows that what I am saying and what got me off on these two or three sentences - I was asked by the Minister of Finance whether in addition to those five boats that are there other boats were involved on a charter basis? And I said, I do not know. I said, The minister may know. And then I digressed by saying that the other day I found out several things in a meeting, and they were items - and I am trying again - I say to the Ninister of Health, I am not at all being negative here. I am not trying to be negative.

I am saying that the other day I found out from two of his colleagues several bits of valuable information which they gave -- - - - - ---. me quite willingly. We did not pry it out of them. They were quite

Apri 1 1, 1977 Tape no. 1523 Page 3 - ms Mr. Simmons. helpful in the meeting. And it came out just as a matter of routine. r~y point is, There must be a lot of that kind of information around which would help us here in the House generally, backbenchers on the government side, to make more intelligent assessments of a given situation if we were routinely kept informed, whether it is about Health or Fisheries or any other department or any other subject in government. Mr.

Speaker, I was a lot concerned the other day to learn that no arrangements have been made to date to take care of the additional catch requirements of the Burgee fish plant once the new plant goes into operation a year or so or a year and-a-half from now. The present boats, assuminq they are still floating by September, 1978, assuminq they are still caoable of catching fish, can hardly fill a bin, can hardly fill one of the fish boxes in the new plant. It is going to be a sad commentary if we have one, 4255 -.

• April 1, 1977 Tape 1524 IB-1 YR. SIMYONS: one of the best work forces in the Province;and two, the spankingest, newest fish plant in the Province; and three, a good marketing arrangement for the fish;and four, a good management arrangement for the plant; and five, a good fiscal arrange!l'_ent involving government and the companies_, if we have all that and do not have any fish to put through the plant. when I say any, I mean not nearly enough, vle have some. The j_nshore fishermen at Burgeo are really coming into their m-m these days. They are catching a lot of fish, a good run of fish up there now.

As you know the Burgeo coast, the Southwest Coast is the only place in this Province where we have a year round fishery, a fishery that lasts ten or eleven months of the year and they are catching a good run of fish and they are catching lots of them and they are making a good living, those inshore fishermen in Burgee as the fellm·rs dm..m the coast are, in Ramea, Francois, ¥cCallum and six or seven or eight fellows in Grey River who are fishing either cross handed or in twos in a small boat. They are making a good living, ~~r. Speaker.

And as a result the people in Burgeo, the inshore men in Burgeo, are providing the plant with some fish. Those five trawlers,such as they are,still floating in a year-and-a-half from now are also capable of bringing in some fish, some. But, Mr. Speaker,unless ~ve have additional catch capability we are really going to be in trouble in Burgeo. The people in the plant are going to suffer in terms of the take-home pay. People on the trawlers are going to suffer. Mr. Speaker, National Sea - ~r. Speaker, I must say that I do have unlimited time. I want to finish fairly quickly but it is most distracting.

I can either take ten minutes to have what I have to say or take thirty-five and it is immaterial to me because I am not getting my dinner until one o'clock anyway. But I recognize that the acting government house leader would like to get on to some other business and I am not wanting to obstruct. But it is very difficult to maintain any continuity of thought under the circumstances that prevail in this House right now. 425f1

April 1, 1977 Tape 1524 IB-2 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The level of conversation is higher than I think hon. members reaB .ze. The level of distraction is higher. So I wouLd ask them to give the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d 'Espoir (}1r. Siminons) the courtesy of allowing his remarks to be heard without difficulty. ~-~. SI"T-'¥-ONS: }fr. Speaker, National Sea which operates a fish plant here in St. John's has six modern trawlers and they are catching a bundle of fish. There is no question about that. They have been fishing off the Funks and they are doing very ~.rell. They are br1ngin~ in a lot ·. of fish.

Last year for a time there T>rere occasions when they could not land all their fish at St. John's,at their Southside plant, the National Sea Plant on the Southside. l'o you know - I kno~r it con-es as no surprise to the minister because he has been in discussions on this matter - do you know, }l'r. Speaker, that National Sea last year for a period ~vas sending an average of t~.ro trawlers loaded down with fish al).ywhere from 400,000 to 550,000, loaded down with fish,sending two trawlers a month on an average for a three or four month period to Nova Scotia because they could not handle it down here in the St.

John's plant. They were sending anywhere from 600,000 to 1 million pounds of fish,caught by our own fellows > on those trawlers, out off the Funks or on the various banks off the Northeast and last year off the South and Southeast coast - this year they have shifted up around the Flmks, some of them but the fish last year were caught further to the Southern - they were sending fi.sh to Nova Scotia because they could not handle it on the Southside. 4257

April 4, 1977 Tape No. 1525 NM- 1 MR. SL'iHONS': Now, Mr. ~pea~r, I do not want to g~v~ the impression that that went on every ~~eek of the year. It did not. But it went on once, that was once too often. Now, Mr. Speaker, National Sea is involved in the Burgeo operation, and the question comes up why did those trawlers go from St. John's, right past the front door at Burgee to Sydney or to ~ Louisbourg, Nova Scotia to unload their fish~ Mr. Speaker, tre answer in the short term is very simple. ' J ,1 - - • MR.H. COLLINS: You cannot unload it in Burgee. MR. S HNONS : You cannot unload it in Burgeo. MR.

MURPHY: They are too large, are they? MR. SIMMONS: Well not that the boats are too large. The boats can get in there in terms of depths and all that but the shute arrangement and the bucket arrangement which unloads the fish cannot ac~~o-date because of. the length of the arrangment and the length of the rig and so on. All right? Okay? }fR. MURPHY: We must have ·another fish plant in St. John's Centre according to that. MR. SIMMONS: Flowers Hill. Mr. Speaker, I am aware of the problem.

I think it needs to be stated one more time that for the want of a proper utiiciad.~ni_-rig- that situation has been happening down there. Nm.r when- the new plant comes in September of 1978 that matter will be taken care of,.but I use it now this morning, Mr. Speaker, for two very specific reasons.

One, the parti~ular reason of drawing attention to how the fish plant in Burgee could benefit from an arrangement even in the short-term, if we could get some adaptations to the ' existing rig~ or take the unloading equipment, the air unloading equipment that would be installed in the new plant and install it in the old plant with a veiw,of course,to moving it at no additional capital cost, and this idea is one that is not at all new to either the Minister of Fisheries or the Minister of Industrial Develonment and 4258

I April 4, 1977 Tape No. 1525 MR. S~ONS: I know that they are looking into this and they gave me that clear indication a few days ago. So I do not particularly mention it here to prod these fellows, I think they are aware of their undertakings there and I believe they are going to follow through. But I raise it, Mr. Speaker, one to point to the potential of an arrangement which would allow the fish to go to Burgee, any surplus fish from other plants, and secondly, Mr. Speaker - MR. W. CARTER: (Inaudible) NM- 2 }m. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, I can appreciate that the Minister of Fisheries knows more about fisheries than I do and I make no apologies for that, but Mr. Speaker, there is one thing, there is one lesson that the perfect man should learn, is to tolerate the less than perfect, and if he will bear with me another few minutes I will sit down and allow him to get up and say something intelligent. MR. W. CARTER: What are you saying? MR. J. :NOLAN: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! The han. member for Conception Bay South. MR. J. NOLAN: The hon. member is not permitted, Mr.

Speaker, to speak or to address the Chair.- MR. SIMMONS: One o'clock and you-can bave it. }ffi. J. NOLAN: - from other than his own seat. MR. SIMMONS: They can have it now until one a-'· clock if they want it. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): To dispose of that point of order, the hon. member for Conception Bay South is correct~of course, that hon. members must rise in tb.eir place if th~y wish to address the Chair. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, on a ·point, from my own seat MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The han. member for St. John's Centre. 425~

Aoril 4, 1977 Tape No. 1525 NM- 3 ~. ~RPHY: - but there is no reflection whatever. I will say this, that I did pass a remark to the hon. Minister of Fisheries, he turned around and said- so I would like~ if--the hon. member who is speaking feels that it is a reflection or anything on him,I would like to set it straight, Sir, even though he might feel that it was. But the hon. Minister of Fisheries was talking to me on a slightly different matter and it had nothing whateve~- and- if there is any feeling that the hon. member has been slighted I will · a?ologize, Sir, on behalf of the minister. MR.

SIMMONS : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am not at all that sensitive but when you have four fellows engaged in extremely loud conversation right under your nose it gets very, very difficult and one wonders if one should try to adjourn the debate and wait until they get their urgent business over so we can get on with the subject at hand. I must say I have tried under some difficulty this morning to make a few -" fairly non-partisan points but if the boys would rather have , a little vindictive slug 'em out approach, I am not adverse to that kind of thing either. Now we get lectured quite often in this House; Mr.

Speaker, with how partisan we are. Sometimes we get up and try and make a few constructive approaches and we will have them over there next week waving their arms about What has that hon. crowd over there ever suggested that that was positive? Well my answer is several things but they did not hear because they were too busy telling each other yarns. ~~ RON. MEMBER: - rather not hear. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS: Order, please! I do not recognize ~that there is actually a point of order before the Chair. MR. SIMMONS: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS: The hon. member for Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir. MR.

SIMMONS: Now, Mr. Speaker, I was addressing myself to the general subject of fish, 4260 -.

April 1, 1977 Tape 1526 IB-1 ¥1'. s IMJ-f()NS : fish in Burgee, flsh out of water in this House, fish generally. I will get back to the fish at Burgee for a while. }fr_~ Speaker, one of the deepest concerns now that the people at Burgee have about the future of their fish plant and therefore the economy at Burgee is will they -haye the_capability of catchi~g the fish that are required to put through that plant. I have said the other ingredients are there. The financial package has been put together.

And the government, particularly the Minister of Industrial Development and the l-(inister of Fisheries are to be complimented on putting the package together. We can pick some holes in details and ~·re will probably do it in Committee but I say and I say for the record and I say without fear of being contradicted that the concept there is a sound one. So we have the financial package, we have got the ~vork force, we have got a management package which ~11 look after the operating of the plant itself, we have got the marketing arrangement. We have certainly got the resource out there.

We have got problems on that but that is another story. But the resource is there particularly in the long-term. I believe it is there. But hm,r futile all these ingredients if we do not have the essential one, the ability to get the fish from where it is to where it has got to be to be processed before it can go to market. That is the concern.

It is not a new concern, but it needs to be stated pretty, pretty often particularly when we learn only this week again that no firm arrangrnents have been made in respect of Bur~eo to provide the additional catch capability, the additional tra"t-7lers that are going to be needed. No~r, ~(r. Speaker, you know the temptation is great to wave this kind of thing, n~w government fleet and so on and so forth. That is 1973. I could wave one from 1971 which says the same thing.

But I do it today not in any partisan way but only as a reminder that the government is on the record several times as having: acknmvledged the need for ad~itional catch capability. They are on the record in 1971 and in 1973 and other times. And it concerns me that no _arrangements are made as of April 1, 1977 to provide trawlers for a 4261 ·.

April 1, 1977 Tape 1526 IB-2 ~-· SI~-'ONS: plant that w:f.ll go into operation in September of 1978. Even if the ¥inister of Industrial Development were to say todat to ~arysto~~. build the trawlers, he weuld be hard put to put them into operation in time for this plant when it goes into operation. So, you know, it is the eleventh hour in rn.ore ~vays than one. It is the eleventh hour when it comes to providing the extra tra~1lers for Burgee. The minister did not particularly speak. to this. He alluded to it. I hope in closing the debate he will see fit to speak to it.

MR. -NEARY:- ~ l.Jho is supposed to put it there? National Sea or the government? ~. S~ONS: ¥r. Speaker, that is the kind of question I want the minister to answer more specifically. It is my understanding that National Sea has some obl:f .gations there. And I am not in a posttion, I am not informed enough, to give the detail of that. But the general impression, the general understanding I have is that National Sea has a responsibility here but the government has a responsibility to get after National Sea to get on with the job of providing the additional catch capability. ¥r.

Speaker, I believe that I have said most of the things I want to say on this bill at this present time. I do _say to the minister that in Committee we do have some details that we will be raising with him. But the bill itself is one that we can support. We can support the principle ~nthout any reservation. We think the concept embodied in the bill, a partnership between government and industry to inject sorre life into the economy of an area, is an excellent concept.

Before sitting down I just want to respond to a question which I was passed privately by a member of the House about the area that the Burgee fish plant serves. 426?.

April 1, 1977, Tape 1527, Page 1 -- apb ' HR. SIHMONS: r.1r. Speaker, members will be aware that Burgee, a town of approximately 3,000 people has immediately to its East or Southeast, the island community of Ramea. It is the nearest community. It has its own fish plant so that there is no need for fishermen at Ramea to sell their catch to Burgee because they can sell it right in Ramea. The next community is Grey River which again is beyond Ramea so it is farther away from Burgee than it is from Ramea. That community has four boats fishing at the present time, eight people.

Four or five boats, eight people altogether. These people sell their fish to Ramea as do the people at Francois just down the coast. So the area served by the plant in terms of employment is the town of Burgee itself. There are no other communities affected. There may be an individual who comes over from Fortune to work in the plant or somebody who comes out from Bay d 1 Espoir, e.ither a transient type worker or a person who decides that he wants to move in to Burgee.

We have a number of them, cutters and packers and trimmers in the plant, girls from Bay d 1 Espoir .and as I say, somebody from on the East side of Fortune Bay, Fortune, Garnish, that area. But by and large it is the town of Burgee and only the town of Burgee which is involved in the employment possibilities of this fish plant. It is now a town of 3,000 people mind you, but it is the town of Burgee in itself. To the communities to the West in my friend•s district, the communities of Grand Bruit and LaPoile - MR. NEARY: That is that? HR.

SIMMONS: I say, the communities in my colleague•s district, Grand Bruit and LaPoile do not have any reason to be involved with , the Burgee fish plant operation in terms of fish catches. 4263

April 1, 1977, Tape 1527, Page 2 -- apb ' MR. NEARY: MR. SIMMONS: or Burnt Islands. MR. NEARY: MR. SIHMONS: down to Grand Bruit. MR. NEARY: MR. SIMMONS : No, they go to T.J.Hardy. They go into Port aux Basques They send a collector out. Yes, the collector goes right That is right. So if you can visualize for our purposes Burgee in the centre and then Grand Bruit and LaPoile and Ramea - Grey River - Francois, you have on the one hand a collector from T.J.Hardy in Port aux Basques coming as far ·East as Grana Bruit, · the last community before you get to Burgee, taking the fish back.

Then on the other hand you have a collector from Ramea, a fish smack from Ramea going down the coast to Grey River and Francois and taking the fish into Ramea. Mc~allum, by the way, goes into Galtois and used to go to Harbour Greton. I am not sure which is the case right now, but it used to go to.Harbour Breton. I believe it goes to Gaultois now. The point is that fish smacks take care of all the other communities in the area except Ramea and Burgee. Rarnea has its own plant which means that Burgee depends on the inshore fishery in Burgee plus the trawler fishery directly attached to the plant out of Burgee. HR.

CANNING: If the hon. gentleman would permit me, approximately how many boats are shore fishing out of Burgee? And are they the longliner type or are they using smaller boats now? .tom. SIMMONS: I would not know the number . I asked that question, as a matter of fact, to the vice­ president of the union when he was here on Tuesday, !tr. Lew Hann from Burgee, and he undertook to get the information for me. I have no idea at all. There

April 1, 1977, Tape 1527, Page 3 -- apb HR. SIHrv!ONS: would be boats of both types, both the old trap-skiff and even smaller, the small boats and there are some new longliners there of varying lengths. I have no idea really ~..,rha t - I can say there is a large, large number.

There is a big inshore fishery in Burgee and it represents, say, substantial part of the overall input into the fish plant. ~'lhen I say substantial it may run between ten and fifteen per cent and that is substantial when you realize they are competing - not competing, but they are involved in an input that also represents hundreds of thousands of fish from trawlers at the same time. But it is very substantial. There is a healthy inshore fishery in Burgeo as is witnessed by the fact that the federal government right now, Small Crafts and Harbours, is putting in a fishermen's wharf there.

As a matter of fact, the construction is going forward now, it is about 75 per cent ·completed. So there is anywhere - I would take stabs, but there is fifty, sixty, seventy boats and that is a ballpark figure, but there is a large number of boats prosecuting the inshore fishery in Burgee. MR. CANNING: Where are they putting the wharf. on the island out there? t.fR. S DfMONS : Yes, it is on the - in reference to the Nat Lake plant, it is pretty 'vell across the island. It is not far from the meeting hall, 4265

Aori 1 1, 1977 Tape no. 1528 Page 1 - ms Mr. Simmons. parish hall, for example. It is just down the next cove from the federal building there. MR. DOODY: Presents a ready market. MR. SIMMONS: Yes, exactly. But it is down in - I get the terms all mixed up there. I think they call it, The Harbour, and that is confusing because there are two different places in Burgee they call, The Harbour, and there are three different p~aces they call, The Reach. But it is in one of the places they call, The Harbour. MR. DOODY: ~1R.

SIMMONS: lhat is the place they got the That is right. rescue- boat· tied up. __ ... . --#--· ·-~ - ;:: .,;__ ,- 0- As a matter of fact it is immediately to the West within 1,000 or 1,500 feet of the search and rescue. MR. DOODY: - liquor store. MR. SIMMONS: I do not know if the minister is familiar with S~lls Island. The cove in which this facility is going overlooks Smalls Island. And which as the minister will know Smalls Island- Debbie's are the centre really of the inshore fishery over there.

And these people will benefit directly, the people who live in Debbie's and Smalls Island and Furby's Harbour in particular, down around the coastal boat wharf, that area. So it is not far from the coastal boat wharf but very near the search and rescue wharf. Mr. Speaker, as I say, I think I have said what needs to be said on this, and I thank the House for its attention, and I look forward to hearing the minister as he closes the debate. I am sure there will be other intervening speakers though. ~ MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for LaPoile. { MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I did want to take a few moments,Sir, to make a few comments on this bill to ratify an agreement and adopt certain measures entered into between the government and Burgee Fish Industries Limited and others. 42Eo

April 1, 1977 Tape no. 1528 Page 2 - ms Mr. Neary. Now, Mr. Speaker, first of all let me say that I think that probably every member of this House is extremely pleased and gratified that Burgee is going to get their new fish plant, that -~~- ~d~-~ have been called and contracts have been awarded for a number of phases of that project. It was a long hard battle.

The people of Burgee were probably the first in this Province to break the chains that bound them to the fish merchants in this Pro vi nee. ~ly 1 hon. friend referred a few moments ago to how it all started in Burgeo.·_~nd· probably the start of the downfall of the Smallwood administration, inJmy opinion, Sir, __ started. in BurgeQ. ___ _ Mr. Speaker, I was in on some of th~ negotiations in the beginning, some of the original negotiations when the strike took place in Burgee, and Mr.

Spencer Lake and his son -what is his son's name? - Birch Lake were invited into the Cabinet Chamber to discuss the matter of the strike, and I could not believe . ' the attitude ~f these two gentlemen towards the people of Burgee and towards the fishermen generally of this Province, arrogant. They looked down on the people of Burgeq and the fishermen of this Province like white niggers. And if I had my way, Sir, at the time, without divulging any Cabinet secrets, if I had to have my way, we would have given Mr. Lake and his crowd the Royal Order of the Boot immediately.

We would not have not procrastinated like we did, _ ~nd we did not have the courage of our convictions to kick the Lakes out of Burgee and pay them the value of their operation down there which I believe was around $500,000 or $600,000. They eventually ended up gouging $2.6 million out of the taxpayers. I do not know if there were any donations to party funds out ·of that one or not, but I would suspect, Sir, that there was a fair contribution to the Progressive Con5ervative Party in this Province. I do not have any cheques I can lay on the table 4267

Apri 1 1, 1977 Tape no. 1528 Page 3 - ms Mr. Nearv. on that one, but I would be almost willing to venture a bet that there was a substantial contribution to the Progressive Conservative Party out of that $2.6 million. That was, Sir, $2 million more than the property was worth. Spencer Lake was laughing all the way to the bank. For that this administration shou1 d not be a 11 owed to forget, and .. __ _ _ 426R

April 1, 1977 Tape 1529 IB-1 YP. • NEA'RY : not get forgiveness for being so generous to the Lalres with the taxpayers money. Now, ~rr. Speaker, that is a little b-it of history now I suppose. But it was a long, bitter struggle that took place in the community of Burgeo that ripped families apart, that saw one neighbor lined up against the ~~ther~ And it is a miracle, Sir, it is a miracle that nobody was seriously injured, that nobody was killed in that savage dispute that took place in Burgeo that ripped the community asunder. We were very concerned about it at the time.

But fortunately the population, the residents of Burgeo, remained cool, calm and collected and apart from a few minor incidents, I suppose, the matter resolved itself fairly nicely. As a result of that great battle the community of Burgeo is now -getting a brand new, I presume it is an all-purpose fish plant. The minister did not give us very much details on what kind of a product was going to be produced from the plant in Burgeo but if my memory serves me corr