MAy 21), 1 <'~7«\, Tap<'. 2825, Page 1 -- 1t1>b Thl" House met at 2:00 p.m . 1-fr. Speaker in the Chair. HR. SPE.AKF.R: HR. loiF.LLS: The hon. the ~inister without Portfolio . Mr. Soeaker, I move the adjournment of this llou.se from now, two o'clock , of course, until three o'clock this afternoon . On !!lOtion the House adjourned until three o 'clock Thursday, "fay 20, 1976. MR. NRARY: HR. SPRAKER: MR. \..'ELLS: '1R. S'PF.AKF.R : Is there any reason for this? I do not know. ~r . Speaker, it will hecome evident at three o'clock. The House is now adjourned until three o'cloc k. 82-&* ,• •

May 20, 1976 Tape 2826 PK- 1 The House resumed at 3:00 P.M. MR. SPEAKER: I would like to welcome to the gallery on behalf --- -- of all hon. members fifty-one Grade X students from Beothuck Collegiate in Baie Verte accompanied by their teacher Mr. Barclay. I know all hon. members join me in welcoming these young men and women to the House of Assembly. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! RON. F. D. MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, first of all I apologize for the hour's delay in the House today but the events of the last couple of days,but particularly this morning, the ' last few hours T ictated that some further research and work be done on the statement am about to give . And the statement I am about to give, Sir, relates to the energy situation as it applies in this Province and as it applies particularly with recent negotiations with the Province of Quebec.

We have had, Sir, over the past weeks a great deal of work and, I suppose, tenseness,one could say,as regards the negotiations with our neighbours in Quebec on the issue of hydro electricity, particularly in Labrador, and what a major concern that is for the future of this Province and the generations of people who will li.ve in this Province in the future.

For well over a year now we have been holding talks with the Province of Quebec, and all during that time it has been the position of this government to have a negotiated settlement which is obviously more desirable rather than even to be approaching a position of confrontation. Mr. Speaker, the options that were opened to us from the beginning were, first of all, .Gull Island, and after that the reclaiming of power from the Upper Churchill . As I have said, Sir, the administration have been struggling with its most important decision since we have taken office in early 1972.

The decision is in relation to the energy resources which exist in Labrador, and which at the moment are either under- 828:-i

Hay 20 , 1976 Tape 2826 PK - 2 Premier Moores: developed or are developed and producing benefits for the Province of Quebec. This Province has been trying to initiate a full-scale development of the rnlJ T~lanc" project since 1973.

Jfow,.ver, because of the significant costs involved which are estimated at about $2.5 billion, and because of the slowness of negotiations with the Federal Government over financing the project, and over the uncPrtainties surrounding negotiations with Quebec, most importantly, Sir, this particular part, for the purchase of Gull Island pm-rer in the early years of its production ,we have reached the conclusion that the full project could not be proceeded with. A phased approach to the Gull Island project was announced in the Fall Budget of 1975.

And sinre that date government has been forced to consider the option of closing down the Gull Island project completely ~ecause of the financial implications involved in the proceedings. After we had decided to slow down the development of Gull Island, Mr. Speaker, then it became obvious that if it had been delayed for two years we obviously had to have power during that two year period to put over the transmission line,and the only source of that power was the developed facility at the Upper Churchill.

The option vTe had, Sir, other than those two items was to install thermal power here on the Island oart of the Provine~ which is totally unacceptable because of the cost involved. It also, Sir, seems ridiculous to us that we would have to invest an equivalent amount of money for thermal installation and operation here, when at the same time we were prodn~ing so much hydro power for the benefit of nuebec,and very little benefit,if any, to ourselves. During the negotiations there was, Sir, a great deal of frustration of not being able to make the progress we wanted to on behalf of our Province.

T]-.e fact was that the more waffling that was done, the more indecision shown,meant that it was hurting us all the more where Quebec was no worse off because the more proccastinatioD there was the least they would be harmed in any manner. H28G

May 20, 1976 Tape 2826 PK - 3 Premier Moores: lve, Sir, had to make a decision regarding the transmission line and the tunnel. These had to be made because of the huge am~ unts of money that would have to be committed in order to keep them going. And to ~ommit that money without having a source of enerp.y W<'tll~, tak:ln!Z: :Into cons:lderat:lon negotiations, have been irresponsible to carry on just for the sake of carrying on without having tried to reach a position to make it meaningful. But, Sir, negotiations, I suppose, could be said to have bogged down somewhat, hogged down somewhat, Mr.

Speaker, when we consider the ludicrous demands that were made by the Minister of Energy of Quebec, when after a meeting,which I will review in a moment, he started to talk ahout the boundary ~f Labrador and other such items which,of course,from the very beginning were never a matter of negotiation with us. Because, Mr. Speaker, I think it is important to point out now that while we were talking about negotiation with Quebec, we never 1 ever at anytime planned to bargain with Quebec where they would give us something and we would give something back. SOME HON. MEMBERS: PRE~IIER MOORES: SOHE HON.

MEMBERS : Hear, hear: What we were trying to do, Sir, - Hear, hear: PREMIER MOORES: We, Sir, tried to be as statesmanlike as possible and as responsible as possible. We have tried to be good neighbours ; we have tried to be good Canadians,because the undeveloped rivers of Labrador are still sources of hydro potential which can be to the advantage of all Canadians because the people of our Province in I.abrador and Newfoundland with the potential that is there could never use all that potential for a great deal of time in the future.

But, Sir, the time arrived yesterday for a firm position to be taken for some of the reasons that I have outlined above, and I wrote a letter to Premier Bourassa which I will now read into the record of the House. I spoke to Premier Bourassa this morning and he advised me that if questions were asked he would be making the contents of the letter public, so I, Sir, have no qualm about doing the 8287

Hay 20, 1976 Tape 2826 PK - 4 Premier Moor es: same thin g here. It was a confidential document until this conversation and now I feel free that we can take our position and declare the content s of this letter. 8 2 8 :·)

'tav :'0, 1 'l7fi Tape No, 2f127 NM - 1 Also, Mr. Speaker, it became known that the f?uchec -Hydro are havinp, a bond issue in New York and obviously the prospectus for that bond issue will be changed as a result of this letter. !-J'I_HQN.:_ MEl~g_: Province. ~~-~~R ~qOBY.~~: The Province of Quehec,rather. I might say, Hr. Speaker, and I ~dll now actually read the letter into the record of the House and I will circulate these copies to all members, to yourself, Sir, and to ~embers of the press, ~~ho would care .to have a copy of it. "llononrahle Robert llourassa, Premier of the Province of ()uebec.

Hy dear Premier: It is with some reluctance that I find myself in the position of having to write to you, formally, vegarding the discussions 1~hich have been taking place over the past several months concerning the request of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador for access to power from Churchill Falls. I had hoped to deliver this letter personally but as you were unable to arrange a time to see me this ~•eek, I felt its contents were of such importance to this Province that I have arranged its hand delivery to you today, Hedrtesday, Mav l()th, 1076.

As you know, my Government regretfully concluded last NovE!lllber that it could not proceed at that time with the full Gull Island project, notwithstanding the fact that a new source of energy was urgently required to meet the Province's needs in the 1980's and that Gull Island wa~ the ~referred source of such energy. We did, however, make a decision that rather than abapdon our efforts to develop Cull Island and to build a transmission line, connecting the Island portion of this Province to T~abrador and to the Eastern Canadian grtd; we should continue with our orip,inal plans but on a phased basis.

This decision involved postponing all work on the Gull Island hydro site but continuing with the construction of the transmission lines and tunnel. At that time, my Government stated that the decision was conditional upon early receipt of assurances regarding the availability of newer, on reasonable terms, from the Churchill Falls and of financial 8281

'1ay 2n , 197n Tape No. 2827 NM- 2 f~R_EJ~.R. ~O_O_RIC_S _:_ support from the Government of Canada. Discussions between Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro and l!ydro-Quebec, regarding access to the required quantities of power from Churchill Falls, were commenced shortly after this decision was taken ftnd these discussions culminated in a letter rlaterl January 6th, 1976, from Nr. Denis Groom, President of Ne~~foundland and Labrador Hydro, to Mr. Roland Giroux, President of Hydro-Quebec. In his letter, ~1r.

Groom formallv asked Hydro-Quebec to provide Nev.•foundland and Labrador Hydro with access to power from Churchill Falls, commencing January 1st .. 1 '132. As you may he aware, Nev1foundland and Labrador Hydro require at least a total of 800 megawatts in order to fully utilize one transmission line. Following receipt of Mr. Groom's letter, Mr. Giroux and Mr. Groom met to discuss Hydro's request and 1n vie~~ o~ its nature, they agreed that the til)le had come for this matter to he dealt with at t h e rolitical level. This decision resulted in Hr. John Crosbie and myself meeting l~ith you and }1r.

Cournoyer in Quebec Citv on Honday, ' 1nrc'• 22nd. At our meeting, I emphasized the importance of a very quick respnnse from the Government of Quebec and pointed out that my Governmert coul d no lon r,er afford to permit work to continue on the construction of the transnission lines and tunnel, in the absence of the necessary assurances rep,arding the availability of powe.r from Churchill Falls. I al s o advised you that lle had been told that these assurances were a nrerequisite to any commitment of financial support from the Government of Canada. At the conclusion of our meeting, it was a greed that )'r.

Cournoyer v70uld contact Mr. Crosbie. within four •1eek.s, to provide a replv to our request. Jt '!as v1ith some consir"erable disappointme .nt that I noted the'· va1·ious puhlic statements which were attributed to ~1r. C:ournover durin?; the period following 'our meeting and prior to 8 2 ~; 0

''ay zo, 1976 Tape 2828 I!l-1 his ~eet:lnf ,.,:fth t·r. rrosb:le. It ~ras clear that these comments die! not augur well for the meeting which !·'r. Crosbie was to have 1vu1 wi.th him and indeed my concern and disappointment were increased when l'r. Cournoyer and 1'r. Crosbie met on April 28 and the Labrador boundary proposal was formally raised as being the price of access to power froM rhurch11J Falls.

Durin!' the l!'e.eting rrr. rournoyer did move froll' h:l.s c1l'mand thllt the bouncl.ary be changed and instead suggeRted th:~t the Prov]nce of Ne~-rfoundland shouid sel 1 to Quebec the land compri s1 ng the ~·a tersherls of the five rivers wh:f.ch rise in Labrador anti flow throup:h Ouebec into the Gulf of St. Lawrence. Payment by Quebec for the land acquired would be by way of a reduction in the price that Newfoundland would pay for the power from <hurchill ~alls. Tn this connection, ~ · r.

Cournoyer's suggestion was that the price should be set at Newfoundlanrl 's cost of provicling the rower from the sources on thP Isl11nrl of Newfounrllanc1.

This, r•r .• Speaker, proposal lv:lS c 1 enrl y <'<lila] ly unacceptable. ''r. rournoyer 's response to our request for access to power from Churchill Falls has placed my Government in a very difficult position. l1i>' terr:ltor1aJ c1em11ndR .aTe clearly unacceptable And furtheYl"'rc, 1Je are not able to contemplate paying a price for rlturc1lil 1 T"~<l J <: pcn,•er I.Jhich i R rel atec1 to our Island replacel!lent costs. l'nder these cirC".l\l'IStances, we would obviously be much better off saving ourselves the cost of transmiss:'-on and proclucing the energy on the Tsl and of Newfoundland.

At ottl" meeting on March 22nd, I aJJuded to the possibility thnt tl•e Provjnce of ~Jepfcnm<'land and Labrador might be forced to tnke a o;omewhat ~iffe~ent approach to the question of gaining access to power fror r,hurchill Falls, in the event that its efforts to secure the co-operation ;md help of Quebec failed. I also stressed my hope thl't this ~rouJcl not become necessary~and not'ldthstanr:lnp the response we have so f~<r rP.ceived, I continue to hope that an equitable and ami .cable arranpement can be concluded.

However, it is clearly my cluty to t11ke 111 J the steps necessary to ensure that the interests of 8291

Tnpe 2828 Ill-2 PPJ:~• mr t'()()?.ES : th1.s Province are protec:tE\rl. 1 therefore regret that: the point has na.• been re aC'hecl 1.1hen it i!< necessary for Jr.e to be soJre···hat ~ore specific rer.arding the Alternative approach which ~y Covernment j s pre11o. r ec' to t nl<e. 1'11rinp. r.lte p:u:t sevoral tl()nths, I'IY Government has souAht th e advice o f 1 eral experts rer.arcl1ne the Province's rif! •ts under the T,f\N«' ~·,.,lC'h I<'?. S executed on Vay 16th, 1961, hy the Province of Net~ foundJancl aru' hy C:hnrcl. n l r:~l.l s (Lahr:~do

r) r.orporati or> . The st:-.to•tnry LeAse sets fort h t hf\ r .-s pect ive rlr,hts :>nd ol)Ji!Ultions of the parties <Jn<! it is cleerly <'ne of t!1e pr:fl'lP. c'ocuments :in connect.ion with tbe arnnr.em-nt.; .,hich 1-·erc macle ~o r th~ developr!'ent of Churchi 11 falls . Tro particular, the Province hns reque .stecl. advice as to l.tll ri,:O)It<; unclcr f'1ause 2 (

e) of

Part 1 of the Lease . '!'h:is r,l:> , r.P stllt C's t hAt the lessee is entitlecl to - and I e>uote - " the ri c:1t Lo ttPnsr:!t throuphout the Province ~ny electric power ~enerated n~ n r('sull or rhe hnmeAsinr of the "''hole or any pnrt of the TTpper f'hurchil l nn<l ro Pxpnrt frnr.o rho rrovjncc such pl'Wer: Provi< ' 4i'c' that upo1• tro ri'<PI<':>t o f th<l r.c-vernl'lE!nt consumer<: c>r eJec:tr1cirv In the fl rnv t nct' ~h.~J 1 he :aiven pr:!odl'v ~<•here it is fe;~sihle ;ond t>cnno!"jc to •'o so' ' , cntl of nuote .

This advice we have receive c:l indicates that the Pnwincr <"~, n exercise its riphts under the T.ease. r, ·ric·"' of the feet that my Cove!'IU"ent can no lon~cr posr pon!' n •'e~i l' ion on ·~h('ther nr not to continue t->ith tmrk on t he cransmjs ~~on line ~n cl tu~nel, J a~ ndv1sin~ you thnt unle~s '"" rC'ce1v<' " favnotr.:Jb lP. resronse by 'l''onday, ''a:v 3Lst, 197~. to our rNmest f or ;:n ntl<'it 'tonal ll!)n nega\/lltts of PO'-'et' oy 1982 , t•i!:hout prejucUcc t o any otl:er riphts "l' holve. ~~ncl at the saJre cost<: :~s are p:-d 11 hy llyrlr("'-I'!Hcbec, T shall have no nl temative - r.n'!T' llf"'l. ~'IT'Ii.l'S: r'~ r::•· u:r ~·txwrs: 'le:tr, hear! - h11t to terl"in:tte all 'N'ork on the t ranSlll:! sM on 1 ire s nncl tnr.nel :mel ttl .1nnounC'e insti tlltiol"' Clf the neces!'an· step~: tc> "Pt: l· r1 "r I fi c11 tion of our I epal r'ghts, by appropr:fa t e rour t '' C'ri nn .

•'lly 20, 1976 ID - 3 PT>m'TER l '()OP P.S : As T hove ~tnte~ earljer, it is still my ho~e that this matter can he rl'sol vec1 in an enuHable and fair manner, '~1 th<'ut recour~ to the C'ourts. I 31'1 also mfnrlful of the fact t!J:lt any pro l onne<l pe r iot' of l :ltiga t ion could be harmful. Once nny ri~ht of nccess is established, t he Province could conce i vahly ev~ntultl.ly take t11e entire out put of f:hur chill Falls . I aJil, ho~<~eve r, vHlf nr. t<' ncpoti:tte rer.ar~in.r, this Pr ovince's r;fr,ht of access to !'hurchill rn11~< rower •·•ith <1 v:lc.., to a fa i rer apportionment of the h!'nefits r.o hn th Quebec and Newfoundland. 829 :1 ,.. ,..

Hay 20, 1976 Tape no. 2829 Page 1 - mw Premier Moores. It is also my hope that as part of the new relationship which I would like to see established between Quebec and Newfoundland, we can agree on the joint development of the rivers which are common to both Labrador and Quebec and that we can also agree to co-operate in the development of hydro resources in Labrador. I am sure that arrangements to do this can be developed in a manner Which is beneficial to both our Provinces.

I look forward to a favourable reply from you by May 31st so that this Province can continue with the transmission lines and tunnel to bring energy to the Island while we continue to discuss and settle the other matters mentioned by me and thus avoid a reference to the courts on this matter which cannot o·therwise be avoid-ed. Yours sincerely." SOME HON.MEMBERS: He11r, l1e11r! PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, as I stated to Premier Bourassa this government can no longer postpone the decision on whether or not to continue with work on the transmission lines and tunnel, nor can it any longer postpone the decision on the future direction and even ultimate survival of this Province. We do not want a court battle with Quebec over the Upper Churchill contract. We do no·t believe that either of the provinces,nor indeed the Canadian nation, could benefit from such proceedings.

What we do want is a fait and equitable distribution of the benefits which are flowing from the resources of Labrador to both Quebec and Newfoundland. It is not our objective to harm relationships with our neighbours in Quebec 1 but rather we want to strengthen them through a united effort by both provinces on the joint development of the rivers which are common to both Labrador and Quebec, and which can provide cheap hydro electricity to not only both provinces but to the Eastern Canadian grid. And obviously, Mr.

Speaker, the rivers I am referring to are the ones with the head waters in Labrador that in fact flow into the Harth side of the Gulf of St. Lawrence. 829~

May 20, 1976 Tape no, 2829 Page 2 - mw Premier Moores. What we are dealing with here, Sir, is the future of our Province. We cannot allow the hydro resources in Labrador to remain undevelope4 whilst this Province has a crying need for additional energy ge~eration. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER MOORES: Nor cart we stand by and allow the power from the Upper Churchill project, which is a fully developed Labrador resource, to benefit only the people of Quebec.particularly at a time when Newfoundland needs a share of that power to ensure the continution - SOME RON. MEHBERS : Hear , bear! PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, if I were not to earry out every possible option open to the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador to increase the benefits from the hydro resear~es in Labrador,then I would not be carrying out the major responsibility which my government currently faces. We do not look forward, Sir, to any sort of confrontation with the Province of ~ebec because we believe that this wi11 be harmful to the Canadian ~nfede~ation, and we believe, Sir, that in some ways it will be harmful to both Quebec and Newfoundland in particular.

However, our negotiations to date with the Province of Quebec have not been very successful and any suggestions from that P~ovince that the Labrador boundary must be raised as the price of access to power from Churchill Falls will be unequivocably rejected by every single person in this Province. SOHE HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, Sir, it ia our intention to strive for a negotiated settlement in an arrangement surrounding the Upper Chur·chill contract.

However, if a negotiated settlement cannot be reached to the satisfaction of the Province of Quebec and to our Province, then we will have no choice but to take all steps necessary to ensure that the interests of this Province are fully protected and that the future of this Province is not jeopardi~ed. This is a responsibil!ty which, Sir, I have as Premier of our Province 829:1

Hay 20, 1976 Tape no. 2829 Page 3 - mw P.remie't Moores . and to do otherwise, particularly under current circumstances, would be irresponsible, unjustifiable andhistory would record that I and my administration had given up on the future of this Province because w.e did not have the will and the strength to fight for it . !ir. Speaker, this we will not do.

The fact is, Sir, that in this l etter l. have reviewed .wit h Premier Bourassa what led up to the prese .nt situation. we have talked about the legal opinion which, Sir, in fact if we never listened to, we should be run out of office because, Sir , the fact is that legal. opinion means that we have an obligation to every person in this Province to make sure that we get the full benefit that that legal opinion brought to a successfu .l conclusion could mean to our people. W:e S2· 9~i .,

' lay 2fl, l97f-. Tape 2830 RR - 1 PRFHIER MOORES: set out the deadlines and the minimum terms of fte~otiation that we will :1ccept. I,Te h.:tvP said that we would rather nep,otiate. But, Sir, we have not said that wp woul~ negotiate under any conditions. The conditions httvP heen laid out V('ry clearly as to the minimum position we could ta'ke 1-,efnrP ore sit cloHn nr;a:l.n. HR. NJ\fl.RY: l·n1o r;avE' the leral position? ----- PRPIIER MOORES: That will he reviewen in a moment, Mr. Speaker. The fact is, S:l,r, that we have an ohligation here. We have an obli~ation for the energy position for Canada.

But first of all, and most, Sir, we have an ohlip,ation to the people of our Province. The ramifications, Mr. Speaker, of the position this p,overnment is taking are considerable. We hope that by May 31 Quebec will have come up with a position that is satisfactory to both of us. That, Sir, will be much more rle*irable than any other position. Until we have heard officially we would still rather ne~otiate - and that, Sir, as I said earlier does not mean bargain - than to take nrastic steps, Mr. Speaker, I will say now in concludtng that if drastic :!lteps are needed drastic steps will be taken. SOHZ liON.

MEMBF.RS : Hear, hear! PRF.}ITER MOORFS: This, Mr. Speaker, is a critical time in our Province, not a time to back down or to give in, but rather to take a stand as a people for the rights that we must have from our own resources as a people. These, Sir, will be difficult times. I call on all members of this House and all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to support their Province on this very critical issue. L SOME llON. MEMBF.RS : ---; r, bear! ~!R. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. F.. ROBF.RTS: Mr.

Speaker, the Premier's statement is obviously of ~the utmost significance to the House of Assembly and,even more importantly, to the people of this Province. It is, I think, right and proper that I say a few words now, that we all say a few words. But it is difficult to 8291'

Hay 20, 1976. HR. ROBERTS: 'rape 2830 RH- 2 make a measured and a considered response simply because - and I do not say this as a complaint. I think in the circumstances it would have been unreasonable of me to expect any other treatment - but simply because, hy the very nature of the statement,we have not been informed,or I suspect could not have been informed, and it is a matter of such gravity that I do not want to respond in detail. If the gentleman from Twillingate(Mr. Smallwood}, Mr.

Speaker, could do me the courtesy either to carry on his conversations outside the Chamber or to carry them on a little more quietly, Sir, I should be grateful. I do not mean to be rude. But I think it is an important matter and I wish to say a few things. I am anxious to hear what the gentleman from Twillingate(Mr. Smallwood) has to say as well. Mr. Speaker, as I have said the matter is of the utmost importance, the utmost gravity. I would suspect that the statement which the Premier has just made is as important a statement as has ever been made in this House of Assembly by any Premier, - SOME RON.

MEMJIERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: - by any Premier of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador or by the Dominion of Newfoundland which preceded us. Let me, Mr. Speaker, make three points which I think are relevant in an initial response to this very important matter. First of all, Sir, the people of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador need power, need electric power. It is the duty of the government to provide that power. We do not need to debate that. I think we can all accept that.

It is one of the fundamental duties, not the most fundamental perhaps, not as fundamental as the protection of law and order, but it is a fundamental duty of the government of this Province. If the government of this Province do not take all steps within their power to achieve that goal they have failed in their duty. It is equally clear, Mr. Speaker, that the government of the Province of Quebec has been speakin~ and acting in a spirit contrary to that of Confederation, a spirit contrary to that, - SOME RON. MEHBERS: Rear, hear! 829S

flay 20, J-'Hfi. Tape 2830 Rll - 3 ~m. RORFRTS: - a spirit which is contrary to that which should and must underlie . relations between two sister Provinces. I find it hard to understand that the r.overnment of nuebec or any government of any province would

May 20, 1976, Tape 2831, Page 1 -- apb MR. ROBERTS : take such an attitude. But the Premier's letter and what he has told of his conversations with Mr. Bourassa, and his minister's conversations with Mr. Bourassa's colleagues, makes it crystal clear that the Government of the Province of Quebec apparently feels not only no obligation to approach the need of this Province for power in a reasonable and fair-minded manner, but indeed, Sir, are trying to take advantage of us to extort an unreasonable and an unreasoning price for access to a resource which after all is ours. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR.

ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I think those are two. points which must be made. And let me make it quite clear, speaking for my colleagues and for me, and I am sure I speak for all on this side and for all in this Province,because I think everybody in this Province would ap,ree that whatever steps must be taken should be taken and the people of this Province will support those steps, Sir. Mr.

Speaker, the other point which I wish to make is one which requires a great deal more discussion~ but I wish to make it because I think, Sir, that this announcement today by the Premier shows the complete bankruptcy and failure of the government's policy with respect to the development of the Churchill Falls and the Lower Churchill. I think it is a complete and an titter failure and I think, Sir, that this House and this Province have been labouring under misapprehensions for two years past.

I do not think we have been given the information we should have been given and I do not think we have been given the information we were entitled to· have. Sir, this House voted and I voted, as a member of this House, to support the government's policy to take over the Upper Churchill, the equity position, and to buy back the rights to the Lower Churchill on the assurance and with the clear understanding that the 8300

~v 20, 1976, Tape 2831, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROBERTS : development of the Lower Churchill was both possible and feasible and that it would r,o ahead without delay. }lR. RO'IIffi: That is right. MR. ROllERTS: That was two years ago, l>fr. Speaker, and now hundreds of millions of dollars later, hundreds of millions of dollars spent or committed, it turns out, Sir, that that promise and that assurance was an illusion. It was ill-founded or totally unfounded, What we have seen, Sir, ts a bankruptcy of policy. MR. NEARY; The member for St. John's East, (t~r. Marshall) was the only .one who told us. MR.

ROBF.RTS: Th~ money is gone and the power which we must have is no closer to being available today than it was two years ago, and now we are embroiled in what will be a long and costly and difficult court action with the government of a sister nrovince, I shall support that court action but I think, Sir, that WP. are in a pretty position today due to the way in which this r,overnment, Sir, have handled this matter. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

T call to the hon. gentleman's attention the rule ·~ith respect to comment on Ministerial Statements and that those who are entitled to comment are ltmited to comment or questions of explanation, but the rules do not allow debate. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBF.RTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am grateful for your rulinp,, Sir, and I shall heed it. 1rr.

Speaker, I think it is imperative, Sir, \ that the r,overnment 1who are responsible for the business of the llouse on every day except on Wedflescl.ay, should immediately set aside whatever other business will be called today, which would normally be the debate on the budget, and should immediately provide for and carry out a debate on the Premier's announcement so that every hon. member who wishes to speak may speak. I think 8301

~~y 20, 1976, Tape 2831, Page 3 -- aob fR. ROBERTS: that we should get a fuller disclosu r e of the facts. I b~lieve we are entitled to that and I should like to hear, Sir, you know, 1 think the Premier should soeak, and the minist ers concerned should s~eak, and I think gentlem en on this side should speak, because, Sir, I believe this matter should be deba ted and should be debated this d;~y. )1R. ROI"E: Rear, hear ! KR.. ROBF:RTS : Mr. Speaker , let me conclude by saying, Si r, that every Newfoundlander and every Labradorian feels as stron~ly as do I or as does the Premier on the subject which he raised today.

The government will not find any citizen of this Province, Sir, from trepassey to Main or from Cape Spear to the Bill of Cape St. Geor~e, who will not stand firmly behind them in doin~ whatever must be done to protect and to defend and to advance our rights . SOMF. RON. MEMllERS : Hear, hear! 8:1 02

May 20, 1976 Tape no. 2832 Page 1 - mw Mr. Roberts. Every Newfoy.ncllander, Mr. Spt;!aker, and every Labradorian feels that way. But, Mr. Speaker, we must be careful. This is a tt&e for cool heads. We all feel strongly, Sir . Every man in this House today feels strongly, and every man in this House today feels so strongly, Sir, that we will take any step. I think, Sir, but we must be very careful as a House of Assembly,and the government in particular must be careful as a government.

It is time, Sir, for courage, for resolution, a ti&e for cool and reasoned and rational couna*l, not a time, Sir, for blind-headed or bullheaded, emotion. It is a time, Sir, to take all of the people into our confidence, to tell all of the people all of the tmuth, and then say to our people,"Let us stan<! together in what is a great cause,the cause for which ~ery Newfoundlander and every Labradorian will stand and will take whatever action is necessary and whatever action is appropriate. '' I say, Sir, for the men and women who sit · with me on this side,that we shall not flinch.

Whatever action the government take, if we are convinced it is in the best interests of this Proiiace,we shall support it. We shall support it. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear , hear! MR. ROBERTS: And furthermore, Mr. Speaker, if the govemument, Sir, feel t hat they need the support of this House - and I believe they should seek that support - we stand ready, Sir, to lend our support in this House or outside. Whatever action must be taken should be taken. Mr. Speaker, it is a great day in the history of Newfoundland, a great day in the history of Labrador.

The question now, Sir, is whether we can make it into a great day that will benefit the people of our Province, I believe we can, Sir, and I believe 'tile must. We on this side, Sir, shall do our part. Thank you. ) SOME HON. MEMBERS: llear, hear: 8 3 0 : ~

May 20, 1976 Tape no. 2832 Page 2- mw HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the heart of the Newfoundland ~ people I believe will beat in complete unison with the heart of the Premier. I believe that the people of this Province, to the last man and the last woman and the last child,will be with the government thoroughly, whole-heartedly, with enormous,fathomless enthusiasm and patriotism.

Not only that but I believe that in this showdown, if it becomes a showdown,and it is the beginning of a showdown, a very proper one, a very legalistic one, going to court if necessary, that in this showdown not only will the people of Newfoundland be whole-heartedly and unanimously behind the government, but the people of Canada will, all across Canada. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SMALLWOOD: The people of nine provinces all but unanimously will support Newfoundland in this, and a large number in Quebec. What the government are asking is so modest, so reasonable.

Under the contract made by Churchill Falls Power Corporation with Hydro-Quebec, under that contract, something a bit below half a million horsepower of the electricity and shipped off to Quebec can be brought back. In other words, not shipped, it can be retained in the Province here. But the government want a bit more than that. They feel that half a million or four hundred odd thousand is not quite enough. They need somewhere around one million horsepower. Out of the seven million being generated by the Upper Churchill, they want one-seventh. They do not want it as a gift.

They do not want Hydro-Quebec to make a donation to this Province of our own power,even though Hydro Quebec will have bought it and paid for it at a bargain price. It was not such a bangain price when the price was set away back there, when oil was $1.25 a barrel. But it turned out to be a bargain price. But they own it, they bought it, they are paying for it at a bargain price. But the Government of Newfoundland says to Hydro-Quebec, to its owners, the Government of Quebec, the Premier of Quebec, the Newfoundland Governments says,

May ZO, 1976 Tape no. 2832 Page 3- mw 1lr• Smallwood. "Look, we have a legal right under the contract to something close up to half a million horsepower. That is not quite enough. We need a bit over one million horsepower, roughly one-seventh of this hydro energy.

We need it, and we need it badly, and indeed if we do not get it, we have to abandon an announced plan of ours, the announced plan being to build a tranmission line from the Upper Churchill down to the Lower Churchill and then down to the Strait ~f Belle Isle,and then across underneath the Strait of Belle Isle and then down the West Coast of Newfoundland to Deer Lake and then across here to St. John's. That is our plan. We have announced it. But we cannot go ahead with it.

We have to .abandon that, because it would never pay us to spend a couple of billions, a couple of thousand million dollars to build such a transmission line and tunnel as that for the sake of a half a million hoEsepower. That would be the most expensive electric hydro generated electricity in the world.

So we will have to abandon our plan unless you, Quebec, will reasonably sell us at the same price that you are paying for it, witho ~ t making any profits for youwselves out of us, out of it, sell us that extra half million or six hundred thousand to bring us up to a total of somewhere around a million horsepower." Now for the Newfoundland Government to say that to the Quebec Government is as reasonable,as modest, as fair a thing that any government can say to another, especially when it is said by the government that is the host to the power itself at Churchill Falls. The Newfoundland Government are the hosts.

This is in our Province. It is on our sacred Newfoundland soil in Labrador. And when the government of that sacred soil says to the next door neighbour, "Look, we would like to have back, and we will pay for it , and we will pay the same as you are paying, we would like to have that so we can go ahead with our prograliDIIe," that is as modest a thing as could be said. 8 30:;

May 20, 1976 Tape no. 2832 Page 4- mw Mr. Smallwood: Now I negotiated with Quebec for seventeen years with several Premiers,and so more perhaps than any member of this House I can feel for the present Premier in his dealing with the same pr~vince, a different Premier. It is the most maddening, it is the most infuriating, it is the most exasperating, i.t is the most unendurable experience a Premier of a sovereign Province can have in Canada,to deal with the Premier of Quebec in any matter where Quebec's own selfish,interests are at stake.

You are up against a complete stone wall, impervious, immovable, thoroughly selfish, no Canadian patriotism. That is a laugh, that is a joke in their eyes. What serves Quebec is all that matters. That is all that matters. Nothing else matters. Does it serve Quebec? Is this the best for Quebec? Can Quebec squeeze another inch or another ounce for itself? Thoroughly,wholly, completely, exclusively, selfish! I found that out in seventeen years of bitter negotiations. The Premer is now finding it" out.

And so I have good reason to sympathize with him,though I disagree heartily,and have from the beginning,with the whole mad idea of the Newfoundland Government going out and borrowing, you know, the best part of a couple of hundred millions to buy Churchill Falls, to buy the company that owned the shares. To me that has been madness. It is still madness to me. But that is not the point. The point is that the Newfoundland Government, the sovereign government of the territory where the power is,goes reasonably to its next door neighbour and says, "Look, you know, we can have half a million without any argument.

Look, let us make it a million, a bit more than a million, and this is the reason, Here is what we are doing. Here is what we want to do. We have announced it publicly . If you do not do this, you are going to shame and disgrace us!' 8 30!)

1'<1y 20, 1')7r; Tape 2P33 IB-1 IT. <; PALT.HOOn: And I say, "No! Give ns 11,00(1 ndJeF; of your terdtor.y in Labrador. C:h;mre the h0rcler of T.ahraclor. Pent us some ] and :l.n T.ahrcodnr :• H) ~ . 110~- Clvf'r our read hoc1y , Yes, over every Ne,vfoundl anner' s c:1eacl boc1y. now tl1e rovernMent say we are going to court. Well, r.ocl heJp us that <>e s hould have to go to court! But perhaps '"Ye h a ve r;ot to p:o to court.

The T'reTTder has told us he is goinr; to court, roi.nr, to st•c in the courtR of r.anacla a~ to what our rights are, r,ett:lnr. power hac k , Phat are o11r rights under the contract, the contr;~ct hrt we e n JT yrlrn-fluebC'c on the nne hand and Churchill Falls Power Corporation on tl1e othC'r. C:hnn :hill FallR PoHer C:orporat1on :Is now mvnerl prill'.~ri 1 y hy thP Newfound] and Government. ~ <r.. c:rnsnrE : Tt :IR a le;~se. ~11 rir;ht, a lease. Okay, a lease. They are p;oinr; to s ue to see •1!1<1t their rjghts are. Now I do not mind say:lng, ''r.

Speaker, that T h ;\Ve alreac1y expressed privately to the . government, or t.o <1 very pm•erful. minister of the government - and I have no rlo11bt tl1erehy inclirectly to the Pre111ier - I have expressed this opin:lon, that if ~·r. ncmrassa says no, :lnsteac:1 of going to court '"hat I wou] d ,1o 1 s come :Into th:l s !louse with a piece of legislation ask :!nr, this Honse to enact :It into Jat-J, p:et the Lieutemmt-Governor to s:l.gn it at1d make it the soverei p-n law of this Province , that the po~T er shippec1 out of the Province from r.hruchHl Falls shall . be shipped out less one m:lll:lon horsepm ver,if one l"iJlion is the amount neederl,or one anc1 a t']t•arter mil 1 ion, whatever is the amount that :l.s needed to justify th:ls proposecl transmiss1nn l:fne. ~OI~E H.::'_N-'- T·o/.}'1\ERS: Hear, hear! ltr,.

S' 'ALV .. JOOD: T. ~muld pass it here as a lilt-' in this House. :•low, >'1•at td11 Quebec do then? ~-p. . 'llf. AJ'Y: The lawyers - Let them go to court . J,et the"' he the ones to f?:O t·o court. T.et this Jlouse say, 1 mill:l.on horsepower that shall not 8307

l'ay 20, 1976 Tape 2833 IB-2 ~'P. S1'AJLl•lnOn: J eave Newfoumlland. "ernember this House could pass a law - I wouJ c:l not recommend it - nationalizing the who)e thing. But if we were to national:!_ze it and the contracts expired or were cancelled ,then where is the money corning from every month, where is the power going to be sold, where is the money coming from to pay the interests on the frightful, the fearsome bond issue that had to be solrl to raise the capHaJ to bui)d jt in the first place? ~11'. NF.AJlY: Let them take us to court. It would be maclness 1 it seems to me, to nationalize it.

That 'l.•ou1cl be the last stratJ that tmuld destroy NewfouncUand or !':e>wfottndlancl's cred:l .t. But it ~~ould not destroy Ne~rfoundland's credit j f this House at the government's request were to pass a la~ J saying tl'at the po~J er that goes out may contj_nue to go out at the prjce at l•.flich it was arranp:ed to go out, all that can go on hut 1 ll'i J 1 ion horsepov7er of :i. t does not go out. And the Nem'oundland r,overnment or NewfoundJ.and Hydro will pay for it,the same price that Jfydro-()uebec is paying for it. Now this House will pass that. \)e•,foundland vJil] back it.

All C:anada 1.rill back it and you can perhaps !';et the result not hy goinp: to court but by just passing legislation hP.re. '"'·· NEArY: \.Thy can vie not (lo that? ~m. CF!'SBTF.: It is 11ltra vires. ' 'T' SI'..AJ,LT·100J1: It :Is ultnt v:lres of l•'hO!'l or of what? "r. r.rosJHE: This legislation. l'P. SI'A!.L'<OOJ1: This legislation if we enacted it would be ttltra vires of !•'hat? "" rl'OSB !.l': The courto would knock around that. This House is sovereign j_n matters of property and cjvjl rir,hts. It is sovereign. It is above all the courts in Canada. It is ahove the parliament of Canacla.

It is above the p;overm'lent of C;marla. "'h j s House is absolutely sovereip;n in Newfoundland in matters of property "nd civil dp:hts. It is sovereif!n. If it passes a law snyjng t11At 1 m:lllior of that horsepower shaH not leave this Province, 8303

Hny 20, 1')71\ Tape 2ll33 JR-3 that is a sovereign Jaw. I flo not think anybody can question it. llowrver, ''r. ~pe>aker, it may be I am no lawyer, I am no constitutional autl1ority. I have no res he to rub in anyth:l.ng I have alreacly said ;mel I ••ill not repeat it, 1ohat I think about the whole :f clea of taking over r.hurchill ralls to begin ~T:Ith. But no~T that has been done. Nm• 1ve are up arai.nst a practical problem.

I ~Cant the PrPmier to know that this little group - the Leacler of the npposition has tolcl the Premier about his much larger group - I want hill' to kno•• that therefore everybody on this si.de of the Tlouse,as everyborly on that s:f<'e, this House is unanimous as I helieve the Ne ~r f6uodlancl people 1·•1lJ be when they hear about this, unanimous I".S I believe the vast majority of r.anarla' s 24 millions will be unanjmous in backinp, the government in fighting for 0 0 0 l"r. Speaker, I would l:lke to ma.J<.e a l·'inis terial ftat~ment if I may. I:P. .

SPEAKE'!>.: The hon. gentleman by leave h"s reverted to ~linistedal Statements. The hon, l"'inister of Forestry ancl /lrriculture. Just a short one. Last night I w;;.s out in Grand ralls and T thoup;ht the members of the House would lil<e to know the results of it. I think it is a matter of courtesy. I am pleased to announce last night the signjng of an agreement with Price (Nflcl) " ith respect to t:lmber rights in the )'coney !Hock on the Gre~t Northern Peninsula. The agree-nt represents nearly two years of cl:iscussions :mel negot:iat:lons with Price officials.

It was s:lgnecl last n:l y.ht at rran<1 Falls, that was at a press conference. Sign in? on behalf of the Pr:f ce Company was the president, t~r. Charles TittemBre and the ne'

l) y electecl cha:l rman of the board of Price (Nfld). l'r. !rani< " ynn of !'t, John's. 830:1

l'ay 20, 1976 Tape 2833 IB-4 1:r. r.OTTSSFATJ: The agree!l'ent grants to government exclusive cuttjng rights of 400,000 cords of t1wber which may be cut over an eight year period. Covermnent has agreec1 to p;~y Prf ce stumpage at the rate of $1.50 per cord for softwood pulp'I-'O~d and $3.00 per thousand board feet of softwood aawlogs and the stumpage for hard\~ood would be one half the stumpage rate of softwood. The }'ooney Block which is located in the central part of the Great Northern Peninsula consists of 120,000 acres of productive forest land and contains nearly 2 million cords of timber.

The :.greement exemplifies the sort of co-operation that can he achieved "'ithin the spfrH of the government forest policy. 1\ssent:lally the ap;reement came about because the timber in question is surplus to the present needs of the Price Company. \l!h:!le the agreement fs for eight years only the company has indicated to me the :.p.ree~ent may be extended as long as the timber is not required bv the Price Company pulp and paper mill at Grand Falls.

The timber on the "ooney Block in the ITicinity of Hawkes Bay represents one of the options available to the government and it is a long-term solution to the wood supply problem of the Newfoundland Forest T'rodncts mill :In 'lawkes Bay. The pulpwood :i.n the area represents a sort of wood supply for Labrador Linerboard. Agreement has been reached with Bowaters with respect to the sharing and use of the existing forest acc.ess road :In the Hat~kes !lay aren. ''v offj ci als are preparing tender clocnments for new forest accesR roads wh:fch w1J l open titnher on the Mooney Blocl-'.

Th1.s is the first agreement ach1eved as a result of the povernment 1 s forest pol :1 cy on managel!lent and util f zat:fon of the forest resources and my c1epartment :Is imrolvecl in intensive discussions and negotiations tdth Bnt·N•ters and other areas that may he surplus to that companies needs. And 1 expect to be making an announcement on this in the very near future. F.ear, hear! 8310

: T. SPEAKEr: 1"1'. DOODY: 'l';~pe 2R33 IB-5 POTH'ES Ol' W'TTm! : Tl,e hon. l'inister of l":!nanr.e. ''r. Speaker, I gi.ve notice that I v111 on tnl"orrow af'k le10ve tn jntronuce a hiJl, "An Act To !tat:!fy, r.nnftrm And Adopt !In Agree!'lent "ar1e Ret~·reen The rovernment And The r.overnment (If r.;madR Respecti.np T'ri ce Jl.nd Income r.ontroJ s." (No. 59). 8J1t

Hay 20, 1976 TRnc No. 2.!;14 m1- 1 t~n_. __ SJ'_l\~ER: The hen. Learler of the Opposition. ~~· _RQ_ll_E_R:r~ Thank you. >ffi. DOODY: I want to table this. ~~~· __ RQ_B£RT_S_:_ If the hon. gentleman wishes to ta~)le something I am quite. MR . SPEAKER: I recognized one hen. gentleman. '1R. RORERTS: Hr. Speaker, I thank the minister and now I will - -- .. - .. - go ahead and ask my question;, and I will doubtless have some more.

I may say for the minister's information that I have had about eighteen phone calls last night and today from ~n eo rl e who did not get the raise,and one of them was not from · the gentleman in Treasury Board who got the $7,500 raise down there. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier and of course it grows out of his statement, Let me say I have a number of questions. Are we going to have a debate on it todav? If l>e are I would refrain from the questions and raise them in dehate. PREMIER MOORES: If I could comment on that, Mr. Speaker.

I 7 would like to have a debate on it today, but I think it would be improper until we have actually heard officially from Quebec what the position is and at that time it certainly should be <lis cussed. ~.~O~F~T_:'>_· Hell, Mr. Speaker, I disapree with the Premier's opinion. nut I mean that is as far as we can go on that point. I '' auld like the Premier, Sir, to tell the House how much money the government through Hydro have spent or committed as of a current date in respect of the Lower Churchill project~ MR. SPF..AKER: The hon. the~ - - -- --- PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, I have not got the information with 'me now, but certainly it is relevant.. But I think it would be relevant for the dehate as to what is being involved as opposed to just 831~

( - ~'av :m, 1976 Tape No. 2!134 NM- 2 l'IR. ROBF.RTS- Hell, Mr. Speaker, a number of supplementaries, 1•ell a supplementary can have a number of f)arts, The Premier may. want to take them all as notice. I want to know, Sir, hmv lonr, it w:l.ll take to wind down the project if in fact it winds rlown? Hm-r much it IVill cost us to ~et out of it to the extent that we can get out of it? In other word~at c~tme~ there are and 1•hat further costs must be incurred? }fR. SPF.AKER: The hon. Premier. -- - ·-· -- --- K_~~MI_F.~ _!:!:OQ~_s_-_ Mr.

Speaker, as I said ori~inally, I think that it qualifies all under the same thing because there are a lot of questions to he asked. There are a lot of questions to be answered. And on the whole subject,! mean as I said,! would en.1ov a dehate on it very much but the fact is, Sir, I think until we have heard officially from Quebec as to what their position is on our letter, I think it would be wrong to bring np just segments of a total picture,which is so important. I:!.~ ·2!Y-.¥!!.~ The hon. memher for L~oile followed bv the hon. member for Burgeo- Bay d'Espoir . HR .. . ~LE~R_:I'_:_ Mr. Sp2aker, would the hon.

Premier tell the House From whom the government received the legal advice in this particular matter, the legal advisers to the government? Has it the government's mrn legal advisers or did the government seek outside legal advice? And would the Premier also indicate to the House Hhy it is not possible, I saw the Premier nodding his head when mv friend from ~~illingate (Mr. Smallwood) spoke, why it is not possible for us to legislate in this House to take the 1 million horsepower that 1ge need ;~.nd let Quebec sue us instead of us suing Ouebec? ~~- - S_PEAKE.!_l._: The hon. Premier.

P~~~_MpORES~ On the second part of the question first, Mr. Speaker, it has been the advice we have received and it is something that 1ve should discuss further. It is ultra vires to n;~ss provincial law 8311

'May 20 , 19 76 Tape No. 2814 NM - 3 PRE!1!_E_R MOORES:_ when you are dealing with inter-provincial trade and this is what you are talking about here,and there has been several cases of that previously. The first part of the hon. gentleman' s question is that our own solicitors with the department and a very reputable firm in Canada.

I do not think until such time as we actually file documents, which would not be until we have heard back officially from Quebec, and that I think would be wrong to start once again bandying around these names until actual action is started. ~- -N~J\RY : A supplementary, Sir. ~-- E'.EAKEJS A supplementary. MR. r"EARY: Do I understand correctly from the Premier that we do now have a firm outside the Province under contract to advise the government in this matter, is that my understanding? !~~~MOO~E~ Yes,we have already received their full opinion, ~ Mr. Speaker, and substantiating the position we have taken.

HR._ N~J_:_ _ Then. Mr. Speaker, supplementary; would the Premier he prepared to table the opinion of the legal advisers to the government in the House? ~~- _SPE/I!.E;_R_:_ The hon. Premier. ~l!:E~l_l~ J1QORES: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the people of the Province, I t~ould suggest that that would be much better done in a court case rather than before the House. ~ffi. SPEAKER: -- - - - -- - The hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, to the Premier and on the same subject arisin g out of his statment earlier today, I am interested in the 1 telephone conversation he had with the Premier of Quebec this mornin g . Hould he indicate who initiated the conversation, the call, -------- and whether we can assurre it was in response to his letter to Mr. Bourassa~ and also if so whether he is in a position to brief the House- on what Mr. Bourassa's initial reaction might have been to the contents of his letter to Mr. Bourassa? MR. SPEAKEJ!.: The hon . Premier. 8314

Tape 2835 ' RH - 1 T ll'e<lnt to mention in t'l,, statE>.ment, T thoup,ht I han, but the call '~"'"s from ~'r. P,onr<lssa to myse 1 f. It was obviously in response to thf' Jetter because of the fact that 0nehec have a loan pendinp: in New York which is now being rle 1 a yen somN~hi!t, to say the ] Past. r•R. £0llERTS: ~! r. nour;u;sa advised that the substance of the Premier's ~\letter ~ublic? rRn1Tl'.R HOORF'S: \.1el 1, this was the second part that I was poinp.: to refer to.

Tie ment:ionPr1 that for political reasons if he was askerl questions he woulcl havP to answer on behalf of the people of Quebec and OuebPc's nosi t ion. That bein!' tho:- case T felt free this afternoot" to !'la.ke the ~tntemcnt J clicl. Paving not had that call I would have waite .d until I had his official reply. Bt't as the poss:l.bility waa there that Premier Tlnur<~ssa '~as p:oing to be clivulginp: the content of this letter ,and said that he intenrler1 to , then I had no qualms about doinF; it here. As a m<~ttf'r of fact T t-r<1s ~lad of the opportunity to he able to do it. ~m. SPEAKER: A ~nppl ementarv.

The hosa. member for llurgeo-Jiay d 'Espotr • HR. STHW)NS: . ~ supplementary. A part of my question also related to lJh:lt m1 p;h t hi!VE' been Premier Rourassa' s reaction • Is the 'Premier in a position to niscuss now in the ~ouse what Mr. Rourassa's initial reaction to the re~uest containin~ the letter was? Or may I say it another way: Is the Premier here optimistic that he is going to get any kind of a favourable response hy the neadline of ~fay 31? MR. SPF.AKER: The hon. the Premier. PRF.Mll\R MOORES: I have, no idea, Fr. Speaker. I have no reason to state "'f what the opinion is of Ouebec.

They have not stated it. Their lawyers are obviously meeting and their economists and a few other people. They ~re ohviously ~nin~~: to he as involved in the procenural,and the ramifications of this particular approach as we are , and .1 ust having received the letter yesterday, other th11n havin11: got it to his financial people in New York vesterrlay afternoon, shortly after having received it, and the ramifications of the parljicul ar bond 1ssue now that they are pendin.p: raising in New York, 83Ei

Nay 20, 1976. T'RFMIER MOORFS: Tape 2835 RH- 2 other than that obviously it is a time now for their legal people and, as I say, economists and others to ~et together just to see what the ramifications are. I do not think we will hear officially until Quebec has made up its mtnd. I do not think they have yet, Mr. Speaker. ~!R. SPEAKER : A supplementary. The hon. member for Burgee-Ray d'Espoir. HR. SP~ONS: A further supp]ementary. Is the Premier in a position to indicate whether he and }!r.

Bourassa discussed the possibility of meeting on the matter between now and the end of the month, a meeting between him as Premier and the Premier of Quebec on this subject before the end of the month? MR • SPEAKER : The hon. the Premier. PRF.MIER MOORES: I did not, Mr. Speaker. I endeavoured this week to visit with Premier Bourassa to deliver this letter,but he was busy and time would not allow for an appointment. But, Sir, I can assure the House and Premier Bourassa as well that if he wants to discuss it I will be here until the thirty-first. SOME RON. MEMRF.RS: Hear, hear! ~1R.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Twillingate. HR. SM.ALLWOO~: Mr. Speaker, by the way, that is about as, insulting an offence of a position as one Premier could take towards another - he is too busy to receive him. That is Quebec-for you~ That is not 11hat I rose to ask. l,lould the Premier consider that it would be helpful to him and to the ~overnment and to Newfoundland if this Rouse were today to pass a resolution? If it were introduced it would pass unanimously ., There is no doubt in that. Once before in our history we passed something in the House and we did it uniquely by standing vote.

We could add something to ·tt. I saw a resolution adopted in the House of Gammons once by standing vote and they stood and sang "Oh• Canada". Now we have a song. I would like to shm~ all Canada that this House, to show all Canada that never was a ~overnment of any Province more ardently and unanimously supported than the present government are in this matter,by the Rouse and by the people 8 31f;

y t!:ty 20, 107(; . '!ll. fiNAT.LWOOO: Tape 2~35 RR - 3 of 'cwfnundland, a resolution unanimously adopted hy standing vote and then sinr. "r.ocl r.unrd TheP. Ne~foundlancl" . Now that is not a court action. Rut thinps nre not alw<tys won - the court of public opinion is p,oinp, to pl<ty"" awfully hip.

part in this. If Quebec is shown in the eyes of the world to he in the wron~, and that is not too difficult to do,and it could start right here in t his !louse this afternoon. t do not want to move it. tf the Premier thinks it is a p.ood idea somehotiy could move it. _l!R. SPF.AJCI\R: !lR. R. WELLS: The hon . ~'inis ter withou t Portfolio. I think, Mr . Soeaker, it '~ould be a good idea. I would t:tke J.t that H wp have the indication that it would be unnni .mous and 141thout rlchate, fine. "But if it is going to be a hassle then it would be pointless. ~ut If it could be unanimot~, by all means . ~Ill .

Pi"'ll'f':RTS: ~'ell , ~r. Speak e ,.., for our par t t can say neither an ''aye" OT" a "n:w " unt il T see the text of any resolution. J nmy s;~y T rio not ~now in what r.oorl voice the government are, but there are some of my cnlleap,ue s , Si r , it would rio little to have them sinr. anythinp, . llut if rhf.' llnusl' T.P.aders wi.sh to meet to consult on a resolution we are quite ready, S iT". '"y col.lear.ue, the gentleman from Trinity-Ray de Verde(1-fr. P. Rowe) w:f.JJ he ou1te hapny to holrl himself available at any , time for such a mt>etin g . 8317

May 20, 1976 Tape 2836 PK - 1 Mr. Roberts: I do not know what about the non-debatable part, I want to debate this matter and to debate it urgently,but at the same time I would not suggest to my colleagues that we stand in the way of an expression of feeling if that is of some value to the government. But let me suggest as a gloss upon the suggestion made in the question asked by the hon. gentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood), and this was a supplementary question of course, Mr.

Speaker, to the question, that we might be much further ahead in view of the fact that today is the twentieth and it is the thirty-first before Premier Bourassa's letter cachet, the letter of the French kings arrives here that we might try to have a debate and by agreement limit the debate to a day or two or three so that we have some prospect of concluding the debate before the appropriate time. I want to debate the matter. I am very anxious t~ debate it. And I do not agree with the Premier's view, but I cannot argue ~Jith that now.

At the same time I will not stand in the way nor will my colleagues, Sir, of - MR. SMALLWOOD: The hon. gentleman - MR. RORERTS: ------- A further supplementary again, Mr. Speaker. A further sunplementary from down here? MR. SMALLWOOD: No. I just want to ask the hon. gentleman a question. MR. ROBERTS: Well if that is in order. - MR. SMALLWOOD: Why is - MR. ROBERTS: Well all right SOHE liON. ME..."!BER: By leave. MR. SPEAKER: By leave. MR . SMALL\~OOD : Why be sticky? The hon. gentleman has indicated,more or less,approval of th e idea. He wants a c'tebate. Hell, I want a nebate.

But apart from a debate could we not adopt unanimously a resolution? Could not his House Leader move out and the other House Leader and ours and in a few minutes bring in- we heartily approve the government's actions in this matter, it could be that simple. Let us have a debate. 8318

May 20, 1976 Tape 2836 PK - 2 MR • ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, in reply to that question, I already said that my colleague from Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe) would he available to meet with the gentleman, the Minister without Portfolio, the gentleman from Kilbride (Mr. W,ells) or whoever else should be involved, and whether or not we could consent to a resolution depends on what is in the resolution. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! HR. ROBERTS: That is a penetrating insight into the obvious. But that is really all I need say, Sir. And, you know, I think the Minister of Mines and Energy would like to debate.

I think we all would. And I think the House should get at it today. HR. WELLS: ---·-- Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. gentleman have a point of order? MR. WELLS: On a point of order. I notice that we appear to he filmed from the doorway. I do not believe this is allowed '-(- without perntission. I do not know if permission has been obt•ined for this filming Mr. Speaker. MR.~EAKER: No permission has been obtained to my knowledge, and certainly I would know it.

So I would ask perhaps the Sergeant- at-Arms if he would have that matter investigated, that people obviously are not allowed to take film without permission of the House. I was about to recognize the hon. member for Conception Bay South who has been endeavouring for sometime to get the Chair's recognition, and following him the hon. Member for LaPoile. MR. · J. NOLAN : A quest~on for the hon. Premier, Mr. Speaker.

And that is since in his letter to Premier Bourassa he indicated that unless we reach a favourable response by Monday, May 31, 1976- let us assume that we do receive a response,whether it be favourable or otherwise before that time or on that date--will the bon. Pramier,since we have one side of the story in print,table Premier Bourassa's response in this House? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES : Mr. Speaker, at the time of debate or discussion s 31 ~l

1 May 20, 1976 Tape 2836 PK - 3 Premier ~loores: on this subject I would think that virtually all documentation will be made available. The othe r thing is that I think it is fair to say that if we had an official reply from the Province of Quebec, Premier Bourassa,prior to that date, immediately upon that reply the House will be so advised. SON:E UON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NOLAN: Fine. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Would tre hon.

Premie r indicate, Sir, in the interim period if the Premier or any minister of the government will be approaching the Government of Canada or the Prime Ministe r of Canada to intervene in thi s matter between the Province of Newfoundl:lnd and the Provinc -e of Quebec'l MR.. SPEAKER: The hon . Premier. PREMIER MOORES : I think as far as intervention is concerned, Mr. Speaker, that proba bly Quebec would be so upset about Federal intervention in an area where they have no concern as to lose sight of the issue.

However, I :-can tell the hon. member that the Federal Government have been kept fully informed of the recent events. 8:l~O

~lay 20, 197fi Tape No. 28'37 NM- 1 ~- ...:<;.!::l'AJ<f..R: The hon. member for Trinity - nay de Verde • . !:!R. __ Royy._:_ Hr. Speaker, a question to the hon. the Premier. Could the Premier indicate in the event that they have to terminate work on the transmission lines and the tunnel,and hnsically the Gull Island site, the Lower Churchill, could the minister indicate what alternative sources of power on or off the Island he is contemplatinR and What back up work has been done to date to tap these alternative sources of power? .:iR_·. _S_l'E~E.B:_:_ _ The han. Premier. PRE~f:.~ !1.Q.O.JlE~ Once again, Mr.

Speaker, a great deal of work has been done obviously for the situation should it arise. Once again there is so much detail and back-up to the hon. member's question that once again it is part of a pretty maier debate. And in that debate, I do not know, Mr. Speaker, probably it would be very adv:o.ntageous to get a full list of th~ concerns of the Opoosition but also a thoroup.;h documentation. Tt tdll be a major debate. It has to be by definition with a great deal of detail as well. "MR. ROHE: -··- -- - A supplementary. HR. SPF.AKF.R: A supplementary. ~1P. . ROlffi: Does not the Premier think.

Sir, that a speci-fic --·-- ~ indication of our hack-up sources of power would indicate to quebec or anybody else that we are not bluffing on this issue, -\ that the Province could afford to terminate work on the Lot~er Churchill and still be self reliant on power within the Province if the Premier indicated specifically what alternative sources of power we have in the Province? ~- · !?_P.f!-!5_E,R: The hon. the Premier. PT'£l1~1'.._M..Q_O_RFJ>: In the letter itself it says, Mr.

Speaker, that not hav:l.ng done this, I am not sure if it was in my letter, but -..\..it t~as certainly in my statement, that the only option, not havinp: availability to hydro pot~er,would be further installed thermal capacity which is oil generation, which is jUst so expensive as to be totally unrealistic. 8321

! !fay 20' 1 ')76 Tape NO, 2837 NM- 2 !_~. _Rm1E..:_ He have other hydro sources. ~~JY~~~OORES~ Very litt~e and in essence if you take them all, the other hydro development's potential in the Province, they would last for about a year and a half at our present demand per year and there are also, as the member for 1-lindsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) can well justify, ecological reasons that today are bein g much more taken into consideration than in some of the hydro developments in the past. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile after the hon. member for Fogo. ~· _N~_~Y_:_ Mr.

Speaker, just to change the Rubject for a moment, I wonder if the hon. the Premier could tall the House in View of Mr. Shaheen's performance the other night on television and his sug p,esttons that he had the money t:_re~n the oil rP.finery , would tre Premier tell the House if the government yet has a firm proposal and if the Shaheen flag will indeed again fly over Come By Chance in the near future1 P ~~~~O~~ The last part of that question, Mr. Speaker, is one I certainly cannot answer because I do not know. I have grave reservations.

However, to the first part of the question, we have not received an official proposal by Mr. Shaheen. There have been conversations. But the fact is that we have advised him, really verbally, that when he does have a firm proposition and money available then we will be prepared to talk mut not before. ~R_:___ _ SPE_A!(E~ The hon. member for Fogo. A question to the han. Premier. If the case has to go to court, would the Premier hazard a guess how long that would take,and then what lvould happen to the development of the Lower Churchill and the tunnel across the Straits in the interim period? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Premier"":.---------------- --- -- P"REMIER '100RES : Mr. Speaker, first of all it is impossible to guess at this point in time the length of time the court case would take. The Gull Island project has already been postponed 1 as ~•as announced last Fall for the very reason that we as a Province 83? '1 .......

y Tar>e No. ?.R17 NM- 3 ~RF.!f_r.~_f>!l_O,!ll'~: do not have enour,h money to tlo it and the t-cansmission ltnc nnd tunnc-1. Now having said that, lr. Speaker, it also is required to develop Gull I~land trat Quebec take a certain amount of that J'IO~.?er until such time as lie require it here in the Province. TI'at was the first part or nep.ot~ations,which al~o were very tlifficult . ,,ere ~ras lP.OI"' me~awatts to be developed there of IJhich we conl d l.ni tially use ahout 801"1 or 900 meli(awatts.

Anrl C'hvtow::ly one<> you have developec\ the site you just cannot take half the ca pllci tv and no thin~ to do with the re~t. EqualJ y it 1~ould 6e crazy to r,o ahead ~~it"' t'l-ae transmission J tnc- 11nd tunne1 if there is no suprly so•nce at the other f'n•' . So unle~s 1~e Ret t;e om.rer froM tiJe Uooer Churchill, or unleR c; we mnke arranp;ements for Gull !slantl,end we 1rlll in time, but und 1 we do ohviously we cannot 1ust P.<? al,ead spendinlt money without havi n~ pl1t t he Tlncitane together. <~A)'_TAJ_~ - ~':J;.NE_O~· _ A sunolementary. :.!R.·.

S_P!S:'\Illi~: The hon . meinher for Fop.o on a supnlementary. ' lr. Spe.al< er, in view of t he Premier's statement, if hv ch:mce i t takes a year or two, does that mean that the tunnel and the transmission line now are all cancelled? t!R .•• ~~~_A!{l::,R.:_ Tho hon. PremiP.r ·. 8:12] ,.

May 20, 1976, Tape 2838, Page 1 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: As I said in the letter to Mr. Bourassa, we would have no alternative unless we have a source of energy to put over it, Mr. Speaker. There is no question about that, We just cannot go spending money without having a source of energy. But the whole approach now, Sir, is that we make sure,through one means or another, that we get that energy. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, this is a less exciting subject and a less emotionally charged one, but,however, very important to the area that I represent.

My ques~· is to the Minister of Transportation and Communicati's . Tvould the minister indicate to the House if he has received any representation from the central area, Badger, Hindsor, Grand Falls, about the deplorable conditions that exist on the detour West of Grand Falls? The detour on the Trans-Canada Highway. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, I have not received any renresentation from the area, but the hon. gentleman did bring it to my attention yesterday, and as a result of his representation I will be in the Central Newfoundland area this weekend and will he inspecting that detour myself over the weekend. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. "fR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. '1R. FLIGRT: Yes, I acknowledge what the minister said is indeed correct, but .I have had all kinds of representation this morning, and apparently the road is in a hazardous, deplorable condition now.

In view of that would the minister advise the !louse as to whether he is prepared to reconsider his decision of keeping the Trans-Canada closed, reconsider that, and have the Trans-Canada open,at least until such time as the detour is completed l'!nd possibly paved'! MR. SPFAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications.

May 20, 1976, Tape 2838, Page 2 -- apb '! MR •. 'MORGAN: 'Mr. Speaker, my d,ecis ton will not be changed today, but it could be changed after I carry out an inspection myself over the weekend. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for F.agle River. MR. STRACHAN: My question is maybe Premier Bourassa's first move. To the Minister of Transportation and Communications; ")r is the minister aware of the impending decision by MOT to close down Border Beacon Weather Station, a weather station situated on the border and controlling a 100,000 square miles of air traffic area? MR. CROSBIE: Sitting on the line of fire, are they?

MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of it hut T will take it under advisement and have my officials check it out. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the 'Member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: I would like to put a question to the Minister of Finance, Sir.

In view of the fact ·that the Come f Ry Chance oil refinery closed since the minis'ter last went to the bond market, and now this hassel with Quebec, and maybe the cancelling of the tunnel and the transmission line, and the minister .1ust about ready to go to the bond market now, does the minister think this is going to affect Newfoundland's credit rating in the bond market? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: It is kind of speculative, Sir, hypothetical. We have no indications as of now that it is going to affect the bond market.

Certainly we are going to have to go to the investing eommunity.and explain to them what the position is, where we stand, what Newfoundland's rights are as we see them. My own opinion is that under the terms of the legal advice that we have, that Newfoundland's position in terms of energy supply is a great deal better than it was earlier. I do not really think it will affect us R32~

May 20, 1976, Tape 2838, Page 3 -- apb MR. DOODY: adversely, but I have no doubt that there is some concern right now. MR. SMALLWOOD: It may adversely affect Quebec. MR. DOODY: It will certainly affect Quebec. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would the minister indicate when he expects to go to the bond market and for how much will the minister be looking for? ffow much will the minister borrow? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, we have no immediate plans for going to the market, Sir.

We are fortunately in a fairly liquid position at the present time and it will give us sufficient leeway to weather the storms and dangers that the hon. member just mentioned. We have no immediate plans. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of the Environment, perhaps this question could go to the Acting ~inister, the Minister of Tourism.

I am wondering what is the status of Aff~d the government contract with that group, and ~1hether or not govermnent, if they cannot p,et any co-operation from Affiliated Marine Metals - because obviously there is no co-operation. They are making promises every day to go and pick up car wrecks all around the Province anrt they never, never do so. They have the phones taken out and so on - so how soon will the Province decide to break off with this group, Affiliated Marine Metals, and hire or contract with another group to clear some of the car wrecks around? MR. SPEAKRR: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, MR.

HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I have already asked "'Y officials to give me a report on this matter. I do know that there is some shipping going on, some shipping of stock that has been stockpiled. I cannot give any further information, but as I indicated I have asked my officials to give me a report. 832fl

May 20, 1976, Tape 2838, Page 4 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: MR. NOW: The bon. the membel;' for Conception Bay South. Mr, Speaker, this is a questiQn really in the form of tnfonl!ollti .on, I bol)e, fer til!! Ministet: of T~ism, and othe-rs ~o may be intet:ested, in reference to the adverti .selllellt that I tlistributed the other day !n reference t:o a C-8JII1'•ign being carri~ out by 8327 ·"'

7 i May 20, 1976 Tape no 2839 Page 1 - mw Mr. Nolan. Mr. Davies and Company in the United States at great expense ,..------..___ and provided for obviously by the public. I me~n this because I want to bring this to the attention of the minister from the Ontario Humane Society, and I am going to send it over to him who says, "Silliness will not save seals." And he takes the position of advising people or the editors and the people associated with this paper not to be persuaded by this.

And in fact they say, "If for no other reasons the Humane Societ:tes in Canada must disassociate themselves publicly from the more extreme elements," referring to Davies and his group who are raising large sums of money as we know. So I would like to table this for the minister if I may and perhaps he might want to check with the Humane Association in Ontario and maybe we might do something similar if he would please. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: Mr .

Speaker, I might tell my han. friend that I thought to have a ministerial statement ready for today, but it was late in coming,on the very same matter. We have requested, and we are told that we can have made available to us the CBC film entitled "The Seal Hunt." And we have plans to get this film and to distribute it and make it available to the appropriate groups and individuals. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue. This will be the last ~uestion. MR. CALLAN: Mr.

Speaker, I want to ask the acting Minister of Recreation once more whether or not he can give a candid answer 1 number one, will there be a stadium built or are there plans or ------------------- is there a commitment made to build a stadium in the Placentia area this year and also in the Ferryland area? If the answer is, yes -I cannot find out whether or not it is -but if it is, yes, how does the government justify doing this under an inflationary period? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. acting Minister of Recreation. MR.

WELLS: The other day I told the han. member on that question that I had asked the officials in the department to give me the files 832~

May 20, 1976 Tape no. 2839 Page 2 Mr. Wells. on that. I understand the files are ready. I will bring them here tomorrow, Friday morning, and give the memb~r complete details then. Is that satisfactory? MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I have asked this same question a number of times before. Could the minister tell us whether to his knowledge any commitments have been made for this stadium at Placentia - was it the hon. gentleman mentioned? - and at Ferryland? MR. WELLS: I do not think a commitment was made for Placentia. MR. ROBERTS: I did not hear the minister, I am sorry. MR.

WELLS: I do not think the~e has been any commi~nt made for Placentia. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: I recogni~e the hon. gentleman for LaPoile, MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I move that the regular order of business of the House be suspended today to debate a matter of urgent public importance; namely, the cris~a that has arisen between ewfoundland and Labrador and the Province of Quebec in connection with the recall and purchase of power from Quebec Hydro which s developed at the Upper Churchill. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr.

Speaker, would it not be bet'ter to have that resolution if we are going to have it before we have a debate? 8 3 2 !l

Tape 2840 RJI - 1 MR. \./ELLS: tlr. Speaker, if I mA.y explain the position now. 'ffi. SPF.AKF.•: Is the hon, gentleman now speaking on a point of order, hecause what I have to decide is whether the matter is in order? MR. VET.LS: Pell yes, all right. Then I will make it a point of order. The point of order is this, Hr. Speaker, that I have prepared a few lines here which I "as gning to discuss with the other House Leaders now ~ with the closing of the Question Period. It may be acceptable to members / \of the !Touse. nn the question of the matter of urgent public importance vle feeJ , Mr.

Speaker, that this is not the time. We feel that we ought to wait until some indication is received from the Province of Quebec in reply. Then the matter can and,as the Premier said, will be debated. But r thinl < to at this stage before we know what the reply is going to be, I think we would be preiudging the situation to say that the crisis has arrived or that there is a crisis and that we should debate now. I would suggest to the Fouse that we consider the resolution mentioned by the member for Twillingate(Hr. Smallwood).

It may be that we can adopt it un11nimously or could work out one that can be adopted unanimously. Rut on the question of a crisis and an urgent debate• this afternoon, no, Vle 1.rill opnose th11t liS heing unne.cessary at this time, Mr. Speilker. ~m. ST'rAKF.P: As hon. members know there are in a sense two decisions 1 to he made rlepending on the first decision. One, the Chair has to decide whether the asking for leave is in order. If that is decided affirmatively, then it is up to the House according _to the procedures in Standing Order (23) 7 whether the hon. gentleman in fact has lf'ave.

The Chair does not grant the hon. gentleman leave. It rules whether the matter is in order. It 1s one of the more rliff:l.cult, perhaps most difficult, but certainly more difficult areas in which the Chair is put when this comes up. Beauchesne, page ninety, paragraph three, actually it is section (100), subsection (3) gives some

definitions. It refers to urgency and it says the usual thing does not apply to the matter itself, hut means urgency of debate. "Hhen the ordinary opportunities provided hy the rules of the House do not permit the suh;ect to he hroupht on early enough and public interest demands that discussion take place immediately." 8330

\( Rll - 2 ~ m . SPF.AT<ER : Now the matter that was - yesterday, Private Mem~ ers' Day - before the Fouse was the amenclment to the hudget. T understand approximately ten or eleven members have spoken on that. So while the budget is a - if one wishes to put it this '~ay - a wide open debate , the matter which must come in terms of time first, the amendment,is not hecau~e approximately t~Jenty per cent of the hon. members have already spoken.

Also when I hear in mind that I am directed to make a decision on deciding whether this is 1n order or not,I have to make a personal decision, a personal iuclgment with which hon. members mav aeree or disaeree. and di ffP.TP.nt r-nP~ ml'lv have differ ent vie1vs, hut whether public interest demands that discussion take place immediately. That is the position that I am in and I have to mal:e my own clecision on that. I have had a brief consultation with the hon. mP.mhe:r who submitted this motion.

Of course, the Chair,as hon. members know, can make chanr,es of words or as to form in any motion either with or lvithout consultation. I clid H with consliltation and suggested that the matter lvould, in mv opinion, more clearly come and more properly be worded as ,. situation rather than as a crisis. That is a different kind of value .iudgment. The situation is a neutral position. 1-ty ruling is that the matter is in order. Does the hon. gentleman have leave7 NR. RrJ:RER'T'S: Well, it clepends how many men stand, Your Honour. I am sure my colleagues vdll stand.

I am sure hon. gentlemen who think it is in order will stand. 1-ffi. SPF.AKERi l•Till the clerk please count the House? SO¥ E HON • "!F..'ffiER : Hill we vote7 I Mr. . ROJIF.P'T'S: MR. SPJ\AKER HR. ROJIERTS: }-ffi • SPEAKER: No, it is not a vote yet. rifteen members have stood. Now we can vote. Standing Order 23(

a) decides the matter. "Leave to make a motion for the a d1ournment of the House must be asked after the ordinary 8331

~lay 20, 1976. Tape 2840 RR- 3 tiT<. SPEAKER: daily proceedinp;s ;• }fR. ROBERTS : Hr. Speaker, (

d) is the one. "R. SPEAKER: (d), right, (d). ''If less than twelve but not less than three members rise in their nlace the question whether the member has leave to move the ad1ournment shall be put forthwith without debate. lffi. FORERTS: HR. SPEAKER: I'R • !1.0RERTS: My apolop;ies, Hr. Speaker, number (c) - Yes, indeed. "And if not less than twelve members rise accordingly Hr. Speaker calls upon the member who has asked for leave!' HR. SPRAKER: That is the operative sector here. Fifteen members d:ld in fact stand. So T noH call upon the hon. m.l!mber who asked for ]eave.

Technically the motion before the House is that the Jlouse do nmv adjourn to - that the House do now adjourn is the technical motion before the House. HR. ROBERTS: IIR • SPEAKET! : }ffi. ROBERTS • He has lost his right to speak. lole]l, T do not know. Hr. Speaker, if nobody else rises to speak, I - although in all seriousness I do not know l.rhere the hon. member - "R. SPRAKETt: Order, please: I would have to consider now if the hon. r.entleman who introducerl the motion, whether - JJIR. ROBERTS : MR. J. HORGAN: lffi. ROBERTS: !lere he comes. Hell, Hr. Speaker, I mean I - The motion is - No, no.

For the benefit of the gentleman from Bonavista South(Mr. Morgan) the motion is never carried because if the motion was carried the llouse adjourns. He are now debating - it has ha].llpened at least once hefore in my t·ime in the House - we are now debating leave to adjourn. HR. ROt.JE: That is right. !IF.. ROBERTS: The !';entleman from J.aPoile (Mr. Neary) was not in his place when the Speaker called. But since he is now back I will yield to him on the understanding that lvhen the hon. gentleman is finished my 8332

l'ay 70, 197 1' . Tape 2840 RH - 4 l·'R . llORF:RTS : rip,ht to speak exists as hefore,because I stood only when the ~entleman frol'l LaT'nile (l1r. Neary) Has not here. He was outside the Chamber for " moment. HR • ST'EAKER : Yes, certainly the Leader of the Opposition R:l33

7 ~ay 20, 1976 Tape 2841 IB-1 YJ'. SPEAKEll: by ce<'f ing now to the hon, member who made the proposal \<'OU} d not Jose his right to speak. Is there general agreement to that? ~rp. ROBERTS : l!e are <'febati.ng it now. You can debate the motion. The debate is on. 1"1.. NEAT<Y: Hr. SpeakE'r, I than\r . Your Honour very much for - 1"1' . ffELJ.S: To a point of order . • : !T'. Sl?P.AKEP: A point of order has been raised. ~m. HELLS: To 11 point of order, }lr. Speaker. l.J'ould Yol,lr Honour givE' n rulinp,.

I take it this nebate, this motion which we are now c1ebating must be ] imited strictly to the nuestion of crists or urgency. nr situation. •w 11EJ:LS: Otherwise it is simply debating under another guise the whole ouest ion and that surely cannot be, }'r. Speaker. Sl'EAKE'': The topic :ts that the situat;on that has arisen between ~lePfound 1 and :tnn Labrador and the Province of Quebec in connection with the recalJ and purchase of power from Quebec-Hydro developed at the llpper rhurchill. That is the topic for nebate.

The situation that has arisen bctvreen Nev!foundlllnd and T"ahracl.or and the Province of ()uebec in C'.onnection with the recall and purchase of power from nuebec-Hyr1ro developed at the Upper ChurchHJ. ~.: NEAPY: J thank Your Honour for the rullnr; - NR. SPEAKER: The normal rn]es of debate apply. And as I understand it, perhaps it is because it i s not ver y freq uentl y that the House does --debate a motion of this k ind , as I understand it as well, that it --------r1oes not hole! o~nt i! th e next dav.

In other word~e or so before the time when the House no longer usually sits, then on is vrithdrav'Tl or it 1-s voted on afflnr..at5vely,ancl that is the SaJTlC !l'otion as tlte motion to adjourn. In other \<rords, it does not carry em and it c'loes not have to go unti .l the House usually ;,c1_ic-urns. Rut \<•hen it comes to that time it is c"isposed of either by wjthdrawing it or by voting to adjourn.

"~y 20, 1976 Tape 2841 IB-2 '11' NfAPY: ~'r. Speaker, I want to thank Your Honour again for 11llo\o.rinr, this urgent matter of puhlic importance to he debated right ~wa y rather than >'aH, Sir, \ enrl of the l"onth as has been for a couple of ~~eks, waiting until the indicated by the hem. the Premier. I regret that I •'Bs out of the House at that particular moment, Sir, but I was rlo:lng an interv:l e~,, on television. I want to thank the hon. T.eac1er of the. Opposition for - vr~. SPEAK!\T': A po:lnt of order has come up and I ll'Ust aslc the hon. r:entleman to wR:It until I hear the point of order. 'T.

CT',OSBJF.: A po:lnt of orc1er, Yr. Speaker. llnder Sect:lon 23 (a) (c). 'P-1'). SPEAKl',l': I am sorry. J c1:1.rl not hear the hon. member. Mfl. rNlSJl TF.: tTnder Sect ion 23 (a) (c). ~"1' . SPEAKEJ!:

Section 23 (a) (c). "'n. Cl'O~lliE: The proce~ure :!.s outlined. If more than twelve members d se you call upon the member tvho has asked for leave. The member ,,,ho askerl for leave .-as not here, that is the end of the matter. TTncler the rnles tve proceed on with business. 1-i'e are certainly not consentinr: on this side to any suggestion that the Leader of the (1pposit ion has spoken in the debate now and this is a debate. We are consenting to nothing. /Is we see it over here the member who askec1 for. leave was called upon. JTe t.JaR not in his place.

The matter is concluded and nrc1ers of the Day should be called. "!'. T:O!lERTS: To that point of order. The f:l.rst point I ,,rould make fg that If the hon. pentle!l':m's argument has any merit -and J submit th"t H h11s not for reasons which I shall explain - he hag slept npnn his r.:l rhts jn that Your Honour has recognized him and the dehate was about to begin and all was in order. That is po:lnt one. Point tuo, Yr.

Speaker, is that ·Your Honour had gone through the rnles and the House had gone through all the procedures specified in Stanclinr; Order 23 for a debate on a motion under Standing Order 23. 1/l,en Your Jlononr call!' npon the ll'ember who has asked for leave that is 833S

vny 20, 1976 Tape 2861 IB-3 2~. ROBERTS: beg!nni .ng the rle bate. Now the gentleman for Twillingate {}lr. ~mllllwood) t.-ho is not here, but the la~<t time we bad a debat e in th'is Bouse on this was during the Placentia situation. Tle had one on Placentja when it was announced the ~ericans wer e cutting back . J t does not re<Jui re unanjt".ous consent. It require s twelve members ~nd as jt happene~ fifte en stood . S33fi

May 20, 1976 Tape 2842 PK - 1 Mr. Roberts: The debate has begun. The gentleman from LaPmile (Mr. Neary) was not here. An~ the ruJe is that when, you know, he did not stand, any hon. member could stand. We were in the debate then . I stood, was ready to speak, but then the hon. gentleman came aloftg and I said, look I will yield to him on the understadding, and Your Honour made a ruling, and no objection that I heard - MR. SIMMONS: No. None. SOME RON. MEMBERS: ~ffi.. ROBERTS: Oh, oh! Oh, no, no.

And Your Honour made a ruling, now after it is all over, and the member for LaPoile has begun his speech,or his speech on the matter then there was some objection taken . W ell, Mr. Speaker, I submit that the hon. gentlemen opposite if they have rights, and they have not in my view, have slept upon them, they have let the point go. And secondly, Sir, they do not have any merit to their point, no substantive merit to their point. The debate has begun in the normal and proper way.

It carries on in the normal and proper way and is subject only to the consideration Your Honour mentioned which is this is an adjournment motion. And either if it is carried the House adjourns, and if it not IJe carried when the debate is finished, if the debate finishes at say five o'clock, it is now four thirty o'clock, normally the matter would be withdrawn, VJe would then go on with other business. As further proof,if I might, Mr.

Speaker, of the fact that the government slept on their rights,the House Leader for the government was heard to say to Your P.onour, "vlhat are the bounds for debate?" And Your Honour made an answer. I mean,now at the last minute when all that is gone the gentleman from St. John's West (Mr. Crosbie) raises a point of order. It is not well-founded, Sir, and in any event, if it was well-founded the_point at ~1hich it could be raised is gone. I think the debate is in order.

The gentleman from LaPoile has the right to speak, and then I have the right to sp~ak after him, Sir, and any other hon. member has the right to speak according to the rules of this House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 8337

May 20, 1976 Tape 2842 PK- 2 MR. SPEAKER: With reference to the point of order brought up, the relevant

Section (

c) of (23) says, "if not less then twelve members rise accordingly Mr. Speaker calls upon the member who has asked for leave." I, in fact, called upon the member 0 He did not immediately get up. It is a ~oot point whether if the hon. member who calls for leave is not here or does not wish to speaK, which is hypotechically possible, whether that necessarily drops the matter. But the hen. member has now been recognized. I would certainly in good faith between the Chair and members who would certainly recognize the Leader of the Opposition's right to speak, the hon. gentleman did get up and say a few words.

He was not, in fact, recognized by the Chair, and I was not at that time until the hon. member came in, I was probably going to call order and consider the matter because then the question would have come up whether the bon. gentleman who asked for leave, and if he is not here, whether the debate continues, and any other hon. member can then speak to it,or whether it requires the presence of the hon. member who asked for leave, but that does not have to he <iecidecl. MR. J. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, MR . SPEAKER: Yes. Another point of order? Yes, Your Honour. Your Honour has raised a point of order. MR.

SPUKER : No, I have not, but I will hear one. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. LUNDRIGAN: One second, please! Your Honour in aaking I Your Honour's ruling has raised a question in my miaa abo~e moot - ----point as to whether a member need be present in order to sanction,or g ve sanct i on or proper authority to a motion which has been raised.

And in that respect, Your Honour, because of the precedent which might very well have been established,or could be antici~~ted to be established, I wonder would it be in order for me to suggest on a point of order that that be considered further,Your Honour, and perhaps, I am not suggesting a recess or anything of that nature R338

Hay 20, 1976 Tape 2842 PK - 3 Mr. Lundrigan: because it is something which I do not have any authority to suggest to Your Honour, but it is a very important matter, and Your Honour has raised tn my mind the doubt as to whether in fact a ruling could be made on a motion when a member is not present to substantiate his position, and consequently . ! am not wanting to challenge Your Honour's authority, although that is the proper procedure for that matter. NR. ROBElf.TS: No. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: To that point of order, Sir.

I am sure the hon. gentleman from Grand Falls does not mean this, but I think his suggestion is offensive to Your Honour and to the House in the extreme. Your Honour has made a clear ruling. Now if the gentleman from Grand Falls, and I think I am quoting him, "he is unable to understand it or has a question in his mind,'' Sir 1 I submit that is not a matter which the House as a whole can deal with. That is a matter for bjm. !lncl Your l'onour has recognized the gentleman from . LaPoile. Your Honour in doing so said the hen. gentleman from LaPoile has the floor.

Now if hon. gentlemen oppmsite wish to challenge Your Honour's ruling there is a procedure laid down and, of course, they can fo 1] m• it. Fnless they !';O challenge it, then I submit the gentleman from LaPoile should be allowed to go ahead. We only have fifty-five minutes before we must interrupt for the late show, and the matter ends at eleven o'clock toni8ht un&ess the House agrees to sit later. So I think we should get on with it. Well~in any event I submit that there is no point of order, Sir, and we should go on. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! SPEAKER: The hon. Minister without Portfolio.

WELLS: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker, I would like to this matter to rest. Whatever the technicalities, and we certainly do not want to challenge Your Honour's ruling, whatever the technicalities 833\J

May 20, 1976 Tape 2842 PK- 4 Mr. Wells: ----- we feel~as it happens,that this is not the appropriate time to debate it. That is neither here nor there. If twelve members rise and want a debate under the rules ~f this House they are entitled to it. MR, NEARY: And twelve stood. MR. WELLS.: And twelve stood, and that is the end of it, and I would say,let the hon. member go on. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Before recognizing the -- hon. gentleman, I am required to deal with a point of order brought up by the hpn.

Minister of Industrial Development which was essentially a request for a ruling on a moot point or on a point which has not come up for decision. And as a matter of fact it would be improper for me to do so. The Chair is not supposed to give rulings on matters unless and until they come up. So unless and until that matter comes up it would be improper for me to rule on it. BOME HON. MEl'ffiRRS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: I have been also advised that there are thirty Grade VIII students from Holy Cross High School in Eastport with their teacher Mr. Major, and I know all hon. members will join me in welcoming them.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: And finally,the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Again I want to - MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I - MR . SPEAKER: On a point of order? MR. ROBERTS : No,I have I think a valid point, Mr. Speaker. This is Thursday and Standing Order 31 (

g) requires at 5:30 certain matters take place. I would ask Your Honour whether that means that this debate now ends at 5:30 or whether it goes from 5:30 to 6:00, the House rises at 6:00 and comes back at 8:00 in the normal course. I think that is important because that will dete~ine whether, you know, '

May 20, 197 6 Tape 2842 PI. - 5 'Mr. Roberts : the hon. gentlelll81'1 will be the only member to sp.eak or whether o.thet hon. mE!lllbers may speak. MR • . SPEAKER: As I would see it th'e regular procedure wUl follow. At 5:00 o'clock bon. members Will be 1nfot11led What is to be debated at 5:30. At 5:30 the regular procedur~ will follow, then the technical motion befo~e t~e Chair,two of the same kind, but the technical motion before the Chair is that the House 4o ·' now adjourn, if the House votes to adjourn - MR • . ROBERTS: That ends it. MR.

SP~: - then that ends it, ~d tomormow we would start off with the regular order of b118iness. So if the House votes not to adjoui'l! then - MR. ROBERTS: W.e will come back at 8:00 o'clock on the Standing Order (23) motion2 MR. SPEAK.ER: Yes, if not disposed off. MR. ROB~TS: So it is up to you guys whether we Meet tonight or not. ,.

}1ay 20, 1976 Tape 2842 IB-iJ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. ~1J' .• ~F.APY: J-lr. Speaker, again I l~ant to thank Your Honour for hls ruling and I '~-'ant to thank the twelve gentlemen who stood in their places to bring on this debate this afternoon, Sir, which I think is a matter of urgent public importance. If Your Honour did not think it likewise I am sure that we would not now he debating this matter.

I l,,ant to congratulate the Premier for outlining and making a very fine pre5entation this afternoon,in outlining the position of the government in connection with the recall of power and the purchase of power from the Upper Churchill. On the basis of it Sir, just listening · to the Premier reading the letter and after browsing throueh the letter myself,! am not so convinced, Yr.

Speaker, even H:f.th all the desk thumpinr that went on, I lll1l not so convinced that th:fs position that we have taken in this Province is strong enough,anrl I may end up rny few remarks by moving a resolution that the !louse unanimously endorse the government's position of not putting up with any more guff from the Province of Quebec. I do not know if the court - Sir I am getting all kinds of feedback. I do not know where it is coming from. I can hardly hear myself down here. I do not know, }lr. Speaker, I am not convinced ;>~tually that the court is the r:fght procedure to follow.

The government, the Prcm:fer indicated to the Pou!'le earlier, that they have sought and l1ave been r,iven legal advice by a firm of lawyers outside of this Province. 83 1 ') • 1 ....

May 20, 1976 Tape No. 2843 NM- 1 ~'IR._!TE~~ Mr. Speaker, the Premier did not na- the firm, would not name the firm at this particular time. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I would ask the constable to ensure that silence is kept iD thecorridors. The hon. member for LaPoile. ~'IR._N_EARY_~_ The hcin. the Premier would not name the legal firm, Sir, that the government had commissioned outside the Province ·to do their legal work. The hon. Premier said it would not be in the best interest of the people of Newfoundland at this time.

Sir, I claim that that is a '~rong position for the hon. the Premier to tak~By divulging, by disclosing the legal firm that the government have employed is certainly not going to damage our position, not going to weaken our position in any way, shape or form,and I think that is a piece of information that the Premier should give the House. It is very important that we know, that we on the Qpposition side of the llouse know that we are in the hands of the best legal advisers that the government can get in Canada. It is important that we know that.

So therefore I see no reason at all, Sir, why the ~overnment should withhold this particular ~ieee of information. I think the Premier in this debate,before it concludes.should give us the name or names of the law firms and the lawyers outside of the Province, apart from the legal advisers to the Crown who are on the government's payroll, but the firm of lawyers that the hon. the Premier referred to outside of the Province, That is very important.

Because we have been hoodwinked and bluffed so often on this matter, Sir, of an energy policy in this Province that I think that the government,without jeopardizing their case, 'dthout weakening the case at all, should give us all the pertinent information that is available. And I think that is one piece of information that the hon. the Premier should not \~ithhold from the people of this Provine~. 83U

May 20, 1976 Tape No. 2843 NM- 2 ~::..~RY.:__ Now, Mr. Speaker, it is a very, very serious matter that we have before us. The Province of Quebec,! understand, had just gone to the bond market yesterday~and today or yesterda1 had to withdraw their prospectus. They had to withdraw their application to float a bond issue.

They lJere,I presume,a little bit scared that this may affect their credit rating in the bond market,ann perhaps the hon. the Premier can confirm whether my assumption of what the hon. the Premier said is correct,that they did in fact, so I have heen told, withdraw their application for a bond issue. So wren you are faced with a situation, Sir, that can affect the credit rating of a Province the size and the magnitude, with the population of Quebec, then obviously it ia a · very, very serious situation.

Now I am not so naive, Sir, at all as to think that this threat of a law suit against the Province of Quebec is in any lJay, shape or form going to affect the credit rating of the Province of Quebec. I would say it was only merely a temporary thing,anrl probably a technical thing just to withdraw their application for this particular bond issue. I do not think for one moment, Sir, that this is going to c~use a ripple as far as the credit rating of Quebec is concerned. ~m. DOO~~=- Do you know what Quebec-Hydro made last year? ~lR.!. !E~~:. Quebec-Hydro probably could 'Juy and sell this Province. 'ffi.

DOODY: They had a net surplus of $400 million. ~..:.__NEA_B_Y_:_ vlell,that is right. So therefore it is not, you know,somebody, I think it was the hon. the Premier that made reference to it,and stressed it, laid some importance on it, that the Province of Quebec were going to the bond market yesterday or today. It is not going to cause a ripple as far as the credit rating of the Province of Quebec is concerned. It is going to develop,if it reaches the stage, if the Government of Canada does

Hay 20, 1976 Tape No. 2843 NM- 3 'ffi. NEARY: not intervene, if the Prime Minister of Canada cannot he convinced that this is going to help destroy Canadianism and to destroy Confederation, if the Prime Minister cannot be convinced of that, and obviously he cannot, somehow or other I p,et the impression from the remarks of the hon. gentleman on the government benches · that they feel that the dice may be loaded in favour of Quebec, that the Government of Canada will not intervene.

Hell, Sir, failing that the Government of Canada does not intervene,and we do not know yet whether or not that will happen, the hon. the Premier still left the door open as far as talking to the Prime Minister of Canada is concerned, but it would seem that from a political vantage point that it may be so, that the dice may be loaded in favour of Quebec, that the cards may be stacked,as far as the Government of C~nada is concerned,and that they will not intervene.

Hell, Sir, that is certainly a sad reflection on Confederation, if the Government of Canada,for political reasons or because a majority of the ministers in the Government of Caneda are. from Quebec Province, that they 1rlll not intervene in this matter, Sir, that in my opinion is a sad reflection on Confederation,because I think it is the duty of the Prime Minister and the Government of Canada to intervene when you have such a serious dispute between two provinces. That is ~~hat Confederation is all about, Mr. Speaker.

Unless the Government of Canada, which is the last hope that we have as far as I can see,be~uae this little threatening letter that has gone out to Mr. Bourassa to me is a kind of a false alarm. The Bouse was delayed one hour today, the han. the Premier could have come into this House and could have interrupted the proceedings at any moment to make an important statement, to make an important announcement,and the House by leave ~ould have given the Premier the right to do that and the hon. the Premier could have at any moment, and if he was in a telephone converaation with Mr. P.ourassa

Hay 20, 1976 Tape No. 2843 NM- 4 MR. NEARY: he could have rushed into the House and could ask ----- the House permission to make a statement and the House would have given it to him. But instead of that the government decided to be dramatic about it and delayed the House opening for one hour when we all had to parade around the .corridors on tenterhooks. He thought the Premier had gone down, passed in his resignation to His Honour the Lieutenant- Governor, prorogued the House and we were going to have a ~eneral election. There were all· kinds of rumours and speculation.

He thought for sure that the Premier had resigned. He thonvht there had been a major Cabinet reshuffle, that the Minister of Hines and Energy, because of the way he has bungled, the minister had hungled this energy sita:&tion, had gotten the Royal Order of the Boot, we thought •.any number of things. Members 1o1ere going around, for the first time in my life, and it all happened so fast that my usual source of information, I presume,lvas uanble to get to me on time to tell me what the crisis was, v7hat emergency situation had developed that delayed the opening of the House for one hour.

But finally a few of us on this side came to the conclusion that it had to do lvi th the Upper Churchill. IVe came to that conclusion he fore the hon. the Premier made h1.s statement. We felt that the hon. the Premier lvould not have the nerve at this time to call the hy-elections or call a general election because it would mean annihilation of the government. But when we came to the conclusion, Mr. Speaker, that it had to do with the Upper Churchill, we were convinced in our minds that the Government of Quebec had come to an agreement.

Premier Bourasia had picked up his phone, called the Premier of this Province and said, "Hr. Premier and government and people of Newfoundland, we are going to sell you the power that you "ant at the price that you want to buy it back for." That is the conclusion that we came to. That is why I say, Sir, the whole thing turned out to be a false 83'd;

May 20, 1976 Tape No. 2843 NM- !5 ~·-.!~'!.~.!.. alarm, heap big smoke aftd no f;lre. Because, Sir, unless we are prepared ~ take more drastic measures in th!s Province, unless we are prepared to do what the han. ttte· fo~er Premier indicated that we sh~ld do9and that is through

an act of this Rouse, to bring a piece of legislation into this House an~ take the million horsepower that we w•nt, do not allow it to go• out of the P~ovince. K.eep ~t in the Province •, And the h:on. minister says that that cannot be do.,:~e because · of inter-pJ;ovinc.$.al tr!lde. We.ll Quebec is not wo:~:ded about int,f!r-provincial trade or good rel&tiops With this 'Province and I woul.d think, Mr. Speaker, that we had a preceden ·t for that only recently whet\ the government changed the lease for Newfoundland Fish P;oc;essing and turned the company over to another company, Fishery Products,and ~hat a,gree111ent was made by a a.tatute of this Rouse, 8 3 I f ,. .•

May 20, 1976 Tape 2844 PK- 1 Mr. Neary: the same as the lease was made in connection with the Upper Churchill. And unless we are prepared to go that far, Sir, this is all smoke and no fire. It is all wind and no rain, because all it is going to mean, Sir, is a bonanza for the lawyers. It is going to be a long-drawn-out court battle. That is all it is going to be. And it is going to take probably years in the courts before the matter is settled. In the meantime the energy crisis in this Province will still go on, go on, and get worse. And, Mr.

Speaker, I hope that this is not just a bluff on the part of the government, and I hate to be political about a thing like this, but, Sir, maybe I got a little bit of a reason to he political. I hope this is not just a bluff to get the government off the hook for having to cancel the construction of the transmission line and the tunnel underneath the Straits of Belle Isle. Last Fall when this matter came up in the House the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) voted against the government for putting up $50 ~llion to continue with the construction of the transmission line and the tunnel.

And the reason that the hon. gentleman gave at that time, and I will never forget it,was that we were delivering ~urselves right into the hands of Quebec, that they would have us by the short hair,that they would have us right across a barrel, that we would lose our bargaining position. And as it turns out the hon. member is absolutely correct, because that is precisely what has happened. 'He are at the mercy of the Province of Quebec. And now, Sir, we find ourselves in the position where the best we can do is threaten, and this is only a threat, this is not yet gone to court.

I do not know what legal advice the government received from its own legal advisers or from the lawyers they have employed outside of the Provi-nce. I asked to have the advice tabled in the House, and the hon. former Premier (Mr. Smallwood) said, "Oh, no! The court." Well,this is the highest court in the land! Why should we not have, why should we not have access? MR. SMALLWOOD: Be serious now.

May 20, 1976 Tape 2844 PK - 2 I am being serious, Sir. I am not talking about anything that would be given in evidence, but why would we not have a right in this House to have access to recommendations that are made by lawyers who are employed by the government? And that is serious. Why should we not have it? Can the minister think of any reason why we should not have it? MR. ROUSSEAU: We do not have to reveal our advice. MR. NEARY; Well the mini~ter may have to tell me before it is all over. Maybe these lawyers did not recommend that we had a legal case, that we had a strong legal caae.

They may have said that we have a weak legal case. Why does not the government take the Opposition into their confidence, and instead of tabling the reco~endation as the former Premier once did when he invited the Opposition over to Roaches Line to discuss a very serious matter and took the Opposition into his confidence. PREMIER MOORES : When was that? Does the hon. former Premier remember that? And,'What was the issue at tqe time? I believe it had to do with the Upper Churchill. MR. SMALLWOOD: If the bon. gentleman will allow me.

On numerous occasions I invited the Leader of the Opposition and his right hand man,whoever that might have been at the time, and I think it was the present Mr. Speaker, into my office and also into the private dining room that I maintained on the ground floor here, and also at Roaches Line, - HR.~ That is right. HR. SMALLWOOD: - to inform them of matters of vital importance and serious importance to N~wfoundland, especially Churchill Falls. MR. NEARY: That is right. So there you are, Mr. Speaker, we had ample precedent.

In view of the fact, Sir, that this is such a serious matter why does the Premier not take the Leader of the Opposition, t"e Leader of the Liberal Reform Party,and the Leader of the Independent Liberals in this Province into his confidence? And the Leader of the 83!9

May 20, 1976 Tape 2844 PK - 3 Mr. Neary: Opposition~s Lieutenant I presume would that he be Opposition House Leader. Why does the Premier not take,as has been done before, take all of us into his confidence, and the Leader of the Independent Tories on the government side, if necessary, and let us have a peep at the recommendation, if the Premier does not want to make it public. That is a fair enough request, Mr. Speaker, and there is no excuse - MR. SMALLWOOD: Would the hon. - MR. NEARY: Yes, I certainly will. MR. SMALLWOOD: - yield for a moment?

He must be aware, I am sure he is aware t that it is a strongly established practice in the Mother of Parliament at Westminster for the government on every occasion of serious national importance to call in the Opposition or Opposition Leaders-there might be, well might be more than one - .a.nd keep them well informed which is the way by which they procure national agreement so that England faces the world as a united people and a united government. MR. NEARY: Right! MR.

SMALLWOOD: In this matter I absolutely agree with the hon. member, I agree that the government ought to keep in very close and confidential touch with the leadership on this side of the House, because the government do not own Newfoundland, Newfoundlanders do, all of us, where our lives are at stake and our children and our grandchildren. And we should approach this matter as a united people, starting by having a united House. And the way to get that is for the closest confidential collaboration between the government on the one side and the various political leaders on this side. }ffi.

NEARY: I thank the hon. member for Twillingate for his contribution, Sir. I think that is the best piece of wisdom, if that is proper grammar - MR. SMALLWOOD: That is good wisdom. MR. NEARY: - that I have heard in this House for a long, long time. Because, Sir, if we are going to keep this matter, this serious matter

May 20, 1976 Tape 2844 PK - 4 ab.ave partisan politics, if we are going to just make it a Newfou~dland issue, instead of a political issue,then the government has to take the Opposition members into their confidence, and so far the r,overnment has not done that. MR. SMALLWOOD: To some extent. MR. NEARY: No.to no extent, Sir, at least I can speak personally. MR. SMALLWOOD: Well I can splilak and say to some extent.

Well maybe the hon. member for Twillingate has heen taken into the confidence of the government, but ~. personally speaking, Sir, can only go on, and nobody in the Liberal Party, only what we have been fed out in this House, and the government will only feed out information as they see fit.

So if we are going to put up a united front, if we are going to fight this battle, and if we all are going to stand here patriotic and sing the Ode to Newfoundland, before we do that, Sir, I would like the government to get together with the Opposition and show us the documentation, take us into their confidence, give us all of the details, and all of the information that is available, give us the name of the legal firm that they have hired outside of the Province,and give us the knowledge, give us the advice, give us the- HR. NOLAN: ------ Give us the tools and we will do the job. MR. NEARY: That is right.

Give us at least the confidence of seeing the recommendations that are being made by the legal firm being hired outside of this Province. That is a fair and reasonable request, Sir. Then we can shove partisan politics aside. Then we can, as the hon. member for Twillingate pointed out,"We can all then go forwqrd together. Put up a united front." But the government has to get away from playing politics with this whole matter. I said a few moments ago, Mr. Speaker, and I do not want to he misquoted, and I do not want to be quoted out of context on this thing because I think it is too serious, that I sincerely hope

May ~0, 1976 Tape 2844 1'K - 5 Sir, and I somehow or other believe this because the Premier sounded so sinc ere,that I sincerely hope that this is not just a political gimmick for the government to get themselves off the hook,to make excuses for not heing unanle co 20 ahead wi~h ~hP development of the Lower Churchill, the tunnel and the transmission line because of the goofs that they have already made in connection with the Churchill Falls in kicking out BRINCO. And my hon. and learned friend from St. John's East (Mr.

Marshall), I am sure when the hon. gentleman participates in this dehate tha t he will give us - because on that one issue alone 1 think the hon. gentleman is outstanding, the hon. member stands alone, And I am sure that hon. members of this House must respect the hon . gentleman who wrote an art.icle,not only spoke in this noose and warned us and told us that we were putting ourse.lves at the mercy of the Province of Quebec , but also wrote a feature

article in The Evening Telegram, I read every word of it, and l thought at the time that the hon. member - 0 ')- 'l c· ,J i ~·

May 20, 1976, Tape 2845, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: I did not agree with everyt~ing the hon. member said, but certainly the hon. gentleman's words have come true. MR, SPEAKER: Order, please! I now wish to inform the House of the matters which will be up for debate at 5:30. I have notice of two matters. The first one, notice was given by the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) referring to a question asked the hon. the Premier and on the subject matter of the 78,000 man-days lost last year through strikes, legal, illegal and lock­ outs.

In the second matter,notice was given me by the hon. the member for Baie Verte-White Bay, arising from a question asked the hon. the Minister of Health on the subject of the cutback of 200 hospital beds in this Province. These are the t1~o matters which will come up at 5:30, The hon. the member for Lapoile. ~IR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I understand that the various leaders of the parties are trying to agree on the wording of a resolution to bring into the House, that we hope will be unanimously approved by the members of the House, Does the hon. the House Leader have something to say on this? MR.

WELLS: I was going to say, if the hon. member would yield for a moment, I have drafted just a very simple resolution which I think would suffice, if it is agreeable, "That this House unanimously endorses and supports the government's stand with the Province of Quebec on the matter of the recall of power from Churchiil Falls to the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador." I think that would suffice, if it is agreeable. MR. ROWE: Was anybody consulted? MR. WELLS: No, I am consulting now. If we wish to discuss furtherit can be arranged. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, this brings me back to the main point of my discussion again. my main debating point now, Sir. Before the resolution is put, and I probably would have no hesitation in voting for it, but before the resolution is put, Sir, 8353 '

May 20, 197fi, Tape 2845, Page 2 -- apb HR. NEARY: I believe that the Premier of this Province and his Lieutenant, the Minister of Mines and Energy, should take the Opposition into their confidence and give the Opposition more information, instead of asking us to vote for a resolution to give the government a blank cheque. I know you would want to be crazy, you would want to be bonkers, you would want to be a lump-head, Sir, not to agree with that resolution that the hon. Government House Leader just read out there. You would want to be a mutton-head not to agree with it, but before we put the resolution, before