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British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

4th Session, 37th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Tuesday, March 11, 2003 Morning Sitting Volume 12, Number 10 THE HONOURABLE CLAUDE RICHMOND, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Honourable Iona Campagnolo 4TH SESSION, 37TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Claude Richmond EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council................................................................................. .........................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations.............................................................................. ..................... Hon.

Greg Halsey-Brandt Deputy Premier and Minister of Education ....................................................................................... ..................................Hon. Christy Clark Minister of Advanced Education................................................................................................. ...........................................Hon. Shirley Bond Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Treaty Negotiations.............................................................. .................... Hon.

Geoff Plant Minister of Children and Family Development.................................................................................... ..............................Hon. Gordon Hogg Minister of State for Early Childhood Development.............................................................................. .................................Hon. Linda Reid Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services......................................................................... .................. Hon.

George Abbott Minister of State for Community Charter........................................................................................ .................................. Hon. Ted Nebbeling Minister of State for Women's Equality ......................................................................................... .................................... Hon. Lynn Stephens Minister of Competition, Science and Enterprise ................................................................................ ..................................Hon.

Rick Thorpe Minister of State for Deregulation ............................................................................................. ............................................ Hon. Kevin Falcon Minister of Energy and Mines................................................................................................... ....................................... Hon. Richard Neufeld Minister of Finance ............................................................................................................ ....................................................... Hon.

Gary Collins Minister of Forests ............................................................................................................ .................................................. Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Health Planning .................................................................................................... ............................................ Hon. Sindi Hawkins Minister of Health Services.................................................................................................... ................................................ Hon.

Colin Hansen Minister of State for Mental Health ............................................................................................ ...................................Hon. Gulzar S. Cheema Minister of State for Intermediate, Long Term and Home Care ............................................................................. Hon. Katherine Whittred Minister of Human Resources.................................................................................................... ............................................Hon.

Murray Coell Minister of Management Services................................................................................................ .........................................Hon. Sandy Santori Minister of Provincial Revenue................................................................................................. ................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ................................................................................ ..................................Hon.

Rich Coleman Minister of Skills Development and Labour...................................................................................... .............................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Minister of Sustainable Resource Management and Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries ..................................Hon. Stan Hagen Minister of Transportation..................................................................................................... .................................................... Hon.

Judith Reid Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection..................................................................................... ....................................Hon. Joyce Murray LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Deputy Speaker................................................................................................................. ..............................................................

John Weisbeck Leader of the Opposition ....................................................................................................... ...........................................................Joy MacPhail Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ........................................................................................... .............................................. Harold Long Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .............................................................................................. .........................................E.

George MacMinn Clerk Assistant ................................................................................................................ ................................................................... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .................................................................................................. ........................................................ Ian D. Izard Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees........................................................................................ ............................................Craig H.

James Clerk Assistant/Committee Clerk................................................................................................ ............................................ Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms ............................................................................................................... .........................................................A.A. Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ..................................................................................................... ........................................

Anthony Dambrauskas Legislative Librarian.......................................................................................................... ............................................................. Joan A. Barton Legislative Comptroller ........................................................................................................ .................................................................Peter Bray Published by British Columbia Hansard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker by the Queen's Printer, Victoria.

Rates: single issue, $2.85; per calendar year, mailed daily, $298. GST extra. Agent: Crown Publications Inc., 521 Fort St., Victoria, B.C. V8W 1E7. Telephone: (250) 386-4636. Fax: 386-0221. www.leg.bc.ca/hansard In addition to printed transcripts, Hansard Services publishes transcripts on the Internet and broadcasts Chamber debates on television.

Party Standings: Liberal 75; New Democratic 2; Independent Liberal 2. ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) ....................................................................... Shuswap Anderson, Val J. (L) .............................................................Vancouver-Langara Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)............................................. Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Pat (L).........................................................................Prince George North Belsey, Bill (L).................................................................................

North Coast Bennett, Bill (L) ........................................................................... East Kootenay Bhullar, Tony (Ind. L) ................................................................. Surrey-Newton Bloy, Harry (L).................................................................................. Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).........................................Prince George–Mount Robson Bray, Jeff (L)......................................................................Victoria–Beacon H ill Brenzinger, Elayne (L) ...............................................................

Surrey-Whalley Brice, Susan (L) ............................................................................Saanich South Bruce, Hon. Graham P. (L)................................................ Cowichan-Ladysmith Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L)............................................. Vancouver–Point Grey Cheema, Hon. Gulzar S. (L) ..........................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Chong, Ida (L)................................................................ Oak Bay–Gordon Head Christensen, Tom (L) .............................................................

Okanagan-Vernon Chutter, Dave (L) ........................................................................... Yale-L illooet Clark, Hon. Christy (L) ..................................................Port Moody–Westwood Cobb, Walt (L) ............................................................................. Cariboo South Coell, Hon. Murray (L) ........................................ Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L) .............................................. Fort Langley–Aldergrove Collins, Hon.

Gary (L).........................................................Vancouver-Fairview de Jong, Hon. Michael (L)....................................... Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) .......................................................... Surrey-Cloverdale Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ................................................................... Comox Valley Halsey-Brandt, Hon. Greg (L) ..................................................Richmond Centre Hamilton, Arnie (L)............................................................Esquimalt-Metchosin Hansen, Hon.

Colin (L) .....................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Harris, Roger (L)......................................................................................Skeena Hawes, Randy (L) ............................................................ Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Hon. Sindi (L).......................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ................................................................... Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Hon. Gordon (L) ........................................................

Surrey–White Rock Hunter, Mike (L) ...................................................................................Nanaimo Jarvis, Daniel (L)...................................................... North Vancouver–Seymour Johnston, Ken (L)............................................................ Vancouver-Fraserview Kerr, Brian J. (L).............................................................. Malahat–Juan de Fuca Krueger, Kevin (L).................................................

Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ...............................Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lee, Richard T. (L).......................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L)................................................................. Peace River South Les, John (L) .......................................................................... Ch illiwack-Sumas Locke, Brenda (L) ...........................................................

Surrey–Green Timbers Long, Harold (L) ...................................................Powell River–Sunshine Coast MacKay, Dennis (L)....................................................... Bulkley Valley–Stikine McMahon, Wendy (L).............................................Columbia River–Revelstoke MacPhail, Joy (NDP) ..........................................................

Vancouver-Hastings Manhas, Karn (L) .............................................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Masi, Reni (L) ...................................................................................Delta North Mayencourt, Lorne (L) ..........................................................Vancouver-Burrard Murray, Hon. Joyce (L) ........................................................... New Westminster Nebbeling, Hon. Ted (L) .......................................... West Vancouver–Garibaldi Nettleton, Paul (Ind. L)..................................................Prince George–Omineca Neufeld, Hon.

Richard (L)...................................................... Peace River North Nijjar, Rob (L)...................................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Nuraney, John (L) ...............................................................Burnaby-W illingdon Orr, Sheila (L) ...........................................................................Victoria-Hillside Penner, Barry (L)....................................................................... Ch illiwack-Kent Plant, Hon. Geoff (L) ......................................................... Richmond-Steveston Reid, Hon.

Judith (L)............................................................Nanaimo-Parksv ille Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ................................................................... Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L) ................................................................ Kamloops Roddick, Valerie (L)..........................................................................Delta South Sahota, Patty (L).....................................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Santori, Hon. Sandy (L)..............................................West Kootenay–Boundary Stephens, Hon.

Lynn (L) ........................................................................ Langley Stewart, Ken (L)...................................................... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Stewart, Richard (L) ...................................................... Coquitlam-Maillardville Suffredine, Blair F. (L) ................................................................Nelson-Creston Sultan, Ralph (L)....................................................... West Vancouver–Capilano Thorpe, Hon.

Rick (L) ..........................................................Okanagan-Westside Trumper, Gillian (L)................................................................Alberni-Qualicum van Dongen, John (L).........................................................Abbotsford-Clayburn Visser, Rod (L).................................................................................North Island Weisbeck, John (L).........................................................Kelowna–Lake Country Whittred, Hon.

Katherine (L) ...................................North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wilson, John (L)........................................................................... Cariboo North Wong, Patrick (L)............................................................Vancouver-Kensington LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn................................................................John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman ..............................................Hon.

Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum.......................................................................G illian Trumper Bulkley Valley–Stikine ..............................................................Dennis MacKay Burnaby North..............................................................................Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds............................................................................Patty Sahota Burnaby-Willingdon......................................................................

John Nuraney Burquitlam ........................................................................................ Harry Bloy Cariboo North ..................................................................................John Wilson Cariboo South .................................................................................... Walt Cobb Chilliwack-Kent ............................................................................. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas .................................................................................

John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke....................................................Wendy McMahon Comox Valley .......................................................................... Hon. Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville .............................................................Richard Stewart Cowichan-Ladysmith .......................................................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Delta North.......................................................................................... Reni Masi Delta South................................................................................

Valerie Roddick East Kootenay .................................................................................. Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin...................................................................Arnie Hamilton Fort Langley–Aldergrove ..................................................... Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops ....................................................................... Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson ........................................................Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country...............................................................

John Weisbeck Kelowna-Mission ................................................................ Hon. Sindi Hawkins Langley ............................................................................... Hon. Lynn Stephens Malahat–Juan de Fuca .....................................................................Brian J. Kerr Maple Ridge–Mission ................................................................... Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows .............................................................Ken Stewart Nanaimo..........................................................................................

Mike Hunter Nanaimo-Parksville ...................................................................Hon. Judith Reid Nelson-Creston.......................................................................Blair F. Suffredine New Westminster ..................................................................Hon. Joyce Murray North Coast ........................................................................................Bill Belsey North Island........................................................................................Rod Visser North Vancouver–Lonsdale.......................................... Hon.

Katherine Wh ittred North Vancouver–Seymour .............................................................Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head .......................................................................Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon .................................................................... Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside.................................................................Hon. Rick Thorpe Peace River North .............................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South .......................................................................

Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley ....................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain.................................................... Karn Manhas Port Moody–Westwood......................................................... Hon. Christy Clark Powell River–Sunshine Coast.......................................................... Harold Long Prince George North................................................................................Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson................................................Hon.

Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca................................................................Paul Nettleton Richmond Centre......................................................... Hon. Greg Halsey-Brandt Richmond East .......................................................................... Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ................................................................ Hon. Geoff Plant Saanich North and the Islands ............................................... Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South...................................................................................

Susan Brice Shuswap .............................................................................. Hon. George Abbott Skeena.............................................................................................Roger Harris Surrey-Cloverdale ................................................................. Hon. Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers .................................................................. Brenda Locke Surrey-Newton ............................................................................... Tony Bhullar Surrey–Panorama Ridge................................................. Hon.

Gulzar S. Cheema Surrey-Tynehead .......................................................................... Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley ...................................................................... Elayne Brenzinger Surrey–White Rock ...............................................................Hon. Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard................................................................. Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview............................................................... Hon.

Gary Co llins Vancouver-Fraserview ...................................................................Ken Johnston Vancouver-Hastings .......................................................................Joy MacPhail Vancouver-Kensington...................................................................Patrick Wong Vancouver-Kingsway..........................................................................Rob Nijjar Vancouver-Langara....................................................................Val J.

Anderson Vancouver–Mount Pleasant............................................Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ................................................... Hon. Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena............................................................ Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill.............................................................................Jeff Bray Victoria-Hillside.................................................................................. Sheila Orr West Kootenay–Boundary.................................................... Hon.

Sandy Santori West Vancouver–Capilano ..............................................................Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi ................................................. Hon. Ted Nebbeling Yale-Lillooet .................................................................................. Dave Chutter

CONTENTS Tuesday, March 11, 2003 Morning Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Second Reading of Bills ........................................................................................................ ................................................... 5389 Police Amendment Act, 2003 (Bill 12) (continued) Hon. R. Coleman S. Orr Hon. J. Murray J. Bray R. Hawes J. Nuraney E. Brenzinger I. Chong L. Mayencourt K. Johnston T. Christensen B. Penner R.

Sultan Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply ............................................................................................................ ................................................... 5404 Estimates: Ministry of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services Hon. G. Abbott J. MacPhail B. Penner B. Suffredine

5389 TUESDAY, MARCH 11, 2003 The House met at 10:06 a.m. [J. Weisbeck in the chair.] Prayers. Deputy Speaker: Are there any introductions this morning? J. MacPhail: I am absolutely thrilled that it's the worst-kept secret in the world, but my colleague from Vancouver–Mount Pleasant gave birth to a baby girl this morning. Member colleague, if you're watching, we all wish you the best with your new baby girl. The birth was at 1:30 this morning. I had a voice mail left at 2:30 this morning by the member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant.

I'm actually going to tape the voice mail for posterity, because it is unbelievable, after almost 21 hours of la- bour, how she sounded. A baby girl about 2.7 kilo- grams…. Interjection. J. MacPhail: Okay, just under six pounds, about 49 centimetres long — a l m o s t 1 8 o r 1 9 i n c h e s l o n g . T h e father and mother are doing extremely well. Dan Small and the member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant are doing extremely well. The baby is a black-haired, raven beauty with curly hair. Jenny — oh, sorry, member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant — we love you, and we wish you and the fam- ily well.

Orders of the Day Hon. K. Falcon: In

section B, I call second reading of Bill 12. In

section A, I call estimates debate for the Ministry of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services. Second Reading of Bills POLICE AMENDMENT ACT, 2003 (continued) Hon. R. Coleman: When I left this discussion on T h u r s d a y o f l a s t w e e k w i t h r e g a r d t o P R I M E , I w a s explaining to the House that PRIME actually works and how it works and the fact that we tested it in Van- couver, Port Moody and Richmond. I didn't have an opportunity at that point in time to give you an exam- ple of how it worked, because we ran out of time.

We're now continuing the debate on second reading. [1010] An example of this is that in the interior of British Columbia, some time ago a police patrol unit stopped a suspicious vehicle at 4 o'clock in the morning. The po- lice officer questioned the driver and received informa- tion that he was known to be a person who would break and enter into premises. However, there were no warrants or conditions on which he could be held. The vehicle was filled with a collection of tools and tool- boxes, all in plain view of the officers. The driver ad- vised that they were his.

One officer noticed a name written on one of the toolboxes in felt pen and queried the name in PRIME. The name was the same as that of a complainant of a residential break and enter the night before. The officers were able to bring up the B and E report on their notebook computer in the car, obtain the complainant's home telephone number and call him and get him to describe his missing tools. This resulted in the driver being arrested for possession of stolen property. Over $4,000 worth of tools were re- turned to the rightful owner within 12 hours of the offence being reported.

In the past, from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, that information would not have been in the hands of the police officer at the roadside. It is an actual fact that the information that's available at the roadside and the suspicious information that's observed at the roadside are what break many major cases in policing, in law enforcement. Prior to PRIME, this information and immediate access to the reports were not possible.

What took the officers minutes to accomplish on the scene with PRIME in their cars would have taken hours of searching through reports at headquarters or trying to get information from neighbouring detachments or police departments. In the meantime, the suspect would have disappeared, that arrest would never have occurred, and the property in all likelihood would never have been returned to its owner.

In another example, police have used PRIME to make a positive identification of suspicious persons in violation of bail conditions because PRIME contained a link through the licence plate number of the person's car through CPIC. Yet another example shows how mug shots available through PRIME to police on patrol were able to identify a person who would not give his real name but for whom there were outstanding war- rants.

PRIME has also been used to alert police ahead of time that they were responding to a situation where a person was emotionally disturbed or violent towards police, so they could take the necessary precautions in dealing with an incident. Previously police would have learned of the person's condition after arriving at the scene. Now the information is on hand for when they actually stop the vehicle or prior to arriving at the scene. Our pilot project allowed us to test PRIME in the three locations.

Once it is fully implemented, it can be used to enforce the law — just as effectively as these three examples indicate — across all municipal boundaries and across the entire province. Yet it is not intended that all information will be shared without regard to the event, the agencies involved or the sensi- tivity of the information. What is required is that key information be available at critical decision points. We

5390 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 11, 2003 have the protections to protect the information within the system so that the public interest can be protected. The amendments to the Police Act provide two core elements in support of PRIME. These are, first, the function of evaluating compliance respecting the in- formation management systems given to the director of the police services division and, second, the require- ment of law enforcement services to use and pay for the information management system.

One of the issues out there today is how much it will cost on an annual basis for police officers to actu- ally have PRIME in their communities. We have other systems in the community today, information man- agement systems in different police forces that cost about $300 per officer. PRIME will cost about $300 per officer and replace those systems. It's basically a wash for the municipalities, but the efficiency in policing and the fight against crime will benefit the communities exponentially beyond the $300 a year it will be for a police officer.

Along with creating the infrastructure, there's a requirement for the appropriate governance. Only the province is in the position to compel police agencies to use and pay for the system and establish the requisite standards for use. We will do that because it is the right thing to do. In the absence of the province establishing the governance framework, there would always be a risk that police agencies and local governments could opt out of the system, set differing standards or estab- lish competing systems.

That's not acceptable to us under any circumstances, because we don't want those borders and silos in policing that are created because somebody thinks they've got a better mousetrap. We w a n t t h i s t o b e c o n s i s t e n t , w e w a n t i t t o b e b u i l t o n , and we want it to be the future of policing in British Columbia. [1015] Apart from providing a legislative framework, the province is also leading this initiative by contributing the funding for the capital and developmental costs.

In February 2002, $4.5 million was approved for the capi- tal and development cost of PRIME, and in 2002-03 further millions were approved for 2003-04. Police agencies will be required to pay fees for the operation and maintenance of the system, as I de- scribed a minute ago. Until now each agency has fully funded its own independent system, in some cases costing more per officer than this system will cost. The shared-resource model will split the cost among a large number of users, potentially resulting in the further benefit of cost-efficiencies for users.

The amount of the fee will be based on the number of police officers and system users. The other nice thing about it, as I said last week and I will reiterate, is that this system doesn't need new equipment. It can actually operate on the existing platforms within the cars today.

Our police services division has worked closely with our justice partners, including the criminal justice branch, the court services branch — both in the Minis- try of Attorney General — the corrections branch in my ministry and the joint information technology services division of the two ministries to coordinate the devel- opment and implementation of PRIME-BC and JUSTIN with the integrated justice project. All police agencies in B.C., both RCMP and inde- pendent municipal departments, are represented on PRIME's steering committee and on the working groups. The B.C. Association of Chiefs of Police and the B.C.

Association of Police Boards have been involved in a discussion on the benefits of PRIME and are look- ing forward to its implementation. With PRIME we are ready for the future. We are ready to link our informa- tion system with those of other police forces in Canada and even internationally. As we move forward, different discussions will take place with regard to policing in this House.

In Alberta we will read about the fact that the Solicitor General wants to institute something called AMBER alert and will make a great deal of the fact that the in- formation has to be broadcast on AMBER alert through a relationship with media and what have you, when a young person goes missing. We will do that, but in addition to that, can you imagine the effect of having that information on the computer in real time for every police officer in the province of British Columbia? That is beyond what AMBER alert accomplishes.

To have it integrated into the information to deal with the sex offender registry in every car in the prov- ince versus a system that has to be checked up at a head- q u a rt e r s i s a g o o d m o v e f o r t hi s s y s t e m . T h i s s y s t e m a l - lows us to build on things in the future technology-wise as they come forward, because the platform is able to do that. As Solicitor General I'm responsible to ensure ade- quate and effective policing, and I'm pretty pleased that the implementation of PRIME will enhance the capability of police forces of British Columbia to de- liver this mandate.

I think it's pretty special to find that one jurisdiction, with the leadership of our Premier and the leadership of our caucus and cabinet, has stepped up to the plate and said: "We are going to have one and only one records information management environment for all police officers in the province of British Columbia." We will take the electronic data that is presently in all those jurisdictions and load it into PRIME. We will have the information at the roadside so that people will have the information they need to do their jobs and do police work better.

It will assist us in meeting all types of commitments to our community, but it will be the breakthrough, in my opinion, that will break down the borders of policing forever. We will deal with the other interjurisdictional is- sues as we move forward in policing. That's including integration, where it is not on and communities think they don't need to integrate their specialized operations like homicide, forensic guide and sex offender teams and those sort of things.

They must understand that the future of policing is community policing at a local level, on a visual level, with the police officer in each community and the overarching support integrated completely in all inves-

TUESDAY, MARCH 11, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5391 tigations with regard to crime. That integration pro- gram and strategy will move forward. There will be people that will have some bumps along the road as we move forward, but they must understand that this is the right thing to do, and when you do the right thing, the people that benefit are the citizens you're wanting to protect. [1020] PRIME is a huge integration of information man- agement. It is a huge integration of real-time informa- tion for police officers who within two years will have this in their cars at the roadside.

But the trickle-up ef- fect from a suspicious check on the side of a road that leads to a break in a homicide investigation for an inte- grated homicide team; the trickle-up effect of a suspi- cious person on the side of a road being checked and being arrested because they actually have an order that says they are not supposed to be in that community because it's protecting a spouse who's been abused; the trickle-up effect of a sex offender being caught before they can offend because they've breached their parole or their probation, because we had that information in real time in the car; the trickle-up effect of letting peo- ple know we are serious about the management of in- formation in the fight against crime — that is what PRIME brings.

As that trickle-up effect takes place, there had bet- ter be an infrastructure above it that's integrated, which works across borders in every jurisdiction so that we don't have any silos in policing. I know that as we move forward, there is going to be some heated discus- sions on integration, but I know I have the support of this Legislature, my caucus, the cabinet and the Pre- mier to make sure that integration in policing is effec- tively accomplished.

We cannot have information that is not available or not being investigated cross-jurisdictionally on serious crime, because somebody thinks their little territory is one that needs to be protected or that it's different than anybody else's. Criminals do not care about whether the border between two communities is a particular street. They don't care. They'll move across this prov- ince and across our municipalities and break the law. We need to be able to be flexible in order to respond to that type of activity, and we will be.

A s w e m o v e f o r w a r d , w e ' r e g o i n g t o s e e a w h o l e new era in policing in British Columbia. These amendments to the Police Act and the implementation of PRIME will greatly assist in meeting the new-era commitment of ensuring that all laws are equally ap- plied and enforced in British Columbia and ensuring our strategic objective of safer streets and safer schools in every community. We're going to have the information. We're going to have the integration. We're going to have, in some cases, the regionalization or even amalgamation.

We are going to make sure we make the right decisions for policing, and it starts with this one. This one sends the message. This province is serious about having a provincially responsible policing operation of inte- grated information and sharing for investigative pur- poses to protect our citizens. That's what PRIME is all about. PRIME sets the standard, and we move forward from here to build a strong, viable, professional, twenty-first-century police operation in the province.

I am proud to be part of the government that had the temerity and that had the vision to move forward with a step like this for British Columbia. S. Orr: I stand here today very, very proud of sup- porting this bill. This has shown wonderful leadership. What it has also shown is a minister that has a true understanding of policing issues not only in my riding but provincially, somebody that genuinely under- stands what it means to be out there, what it is to be a policeman or policewoman.

What has been brought forward is something that I think is going to have a huge impact on the province but also a huge impact on the people out there called criminals, who will soon learn there are no boundaries. I represent two of the biggest parts of this region, the city of Victoria and the municipality of Saanich. Both have their own large police forces. In the words of one of my mayors, Mayor Frank Leonard, when I asked him what he thought of PRIME, he said, "This is the best thing since sliced bread," and I think that is very true. I also live in a region with 13 boundaries.

We have 13 regions, so we have police forces and we have RCMP. Again, I have to thank the minister for enabling the police forces of Esquimalt and Victoria to amalgamate. That was a great start in having our police forces work together. Just imagine living in an area where there are 13 boundaries, and just imagine this area if we weren't introducing PRIME. You get to a boundary, like Oak Bay, and another police force takes over. There's no integration, and we're just talking about this region. [1025] I am very, very pleased about this. I have a son-in- law who is a police sergeant.

I have a daughter who is a 911 operator and a husband who, amongst other things, is a criminal lawyer. We talk a lot about crime and criminals, and how dangerous it is. Criminals are just bad people. There's no such thing as a good crimi- nal. Criminals do not know boundaries, and they don't care about boundaries. In fact, the way it's been until now has been great for them, because they could go and commit a crime in, say, Saanich and end up in Sooke, which is only a matter of 20 miles away, and there still would be no integration. Imagine that — in this small area. Imagine the impact on the entire prov- ince.

PRIME, police records information management environment — that's a great name for it. We're finally going to manage information in the environment of crime and the police. This is a good name. This is a really good thing. I also quite regularly go out with the Victoria po- lice, Police Chief Battershill, who — I think it's about every three months — takes the time to go and do

5392 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 11, 2003 overnights with his force for…. I think he does about three nights in a row. This enables him to stay very much in touch with what's happening on the streets. Every time I've been out with him I'm amazed at how fast and how efficient these people have to be. I was fortunate — or unfortunate, as you might think — last year to go out with them on Halloween. It was quite wild, actually. You realize just how dangerous it is. I was made to sit in the police car when the situations got dangerous, and that's happened quite often.

A couple of times I've jumped out because I'm strong- willed and realized that it is a very dangerous situation out there. But the great thing about PRIME is this: it's not just about the cross-boundaries. It's also a protection for the police. This, as I said, is important because I have a son-in-law who is a policeman. A policeman can now pull somebody over, he can go to his computer, and he can punch in and find out a whole bunch of stuff about this person. Now he can tell immediately if that person is dangerous.

We heard, in the past, of police that have been shot when they've gone to get a driver's licence or of some terrible criminal activity that's taken the life of a policeperson. Now our police force are armed with a tool so they can see immediately that they personally are in danger and can deal with it appropriately. That also is incredibly important. It makes the situation much better for the policeman or the policewoman. There are now no surprises. We don't want surprises in this business. We want to make sure that we know who these people are, what they're doing and how danger- ous they are.

The association of police chiefs actually requested this in 1996. Technology, as we all know, is moving at a rapid rate, and even then, they knew they needed something like this. It was just an incredible thing for our police chiefs when they knew that this was finally going to become a reality. This happened because of this minister, because he knew that this had to be done quickly and efficiently not only for the safety of our police force, for the safety of our citizens and for the safety of the province, but because he understands it is time to come to grips with criminals.

Criminals are bad people, and we can never have enough tools to put them away. [1030] I just feel that with what has been introduced, with PRIME and with everything that's going to…. I really believe that this is just the best thing, as the mayor of Saanich said, since sliced bread. Finally the public will be safer, and finally we'll be able to put the criminals where they absolutely deserve to be, and that is locked up. As you can tell, I'm very effusive about this.

This is nothing but a good-news story and something that this Solicitor General has brought forward fast and effi- ciently, and he has my 100 percent support. Hon. J. Murray: I'm very pleased to have the chance to address the House on Bill 12, the Solicitor General's crime prevention project. For too long now, our municipal police departments and RCMP detach- ments have had difficulty exchanging information. Criminals sometimes escaped punishment by crossing a regional boundary into a jurisdiction where police had little or no information about the suspect or their crime.

The Police Amendment Act, 2003, will give po- lice the information management system they need to make sure that criminals don't get away just because they flee the region. As my colleagues have already noted, PRIME-BC will connect every municipal police department and RCMP detachment in B.C. and will significantly modernize the way police officers appre- hend criminals. People living in New Westminster are proud of our community and proud of our strong police force, but New Westminster residents are concerned about the level of street races, car thefts, illegal drug use and crime on our streets and in our parks.

One New West- minster resident recently felt compelled to fight back against crime in his community — without much re- gard to his own safety, actually. When he found a man going through the trunk of a co-worker's car, he gave chase, he cornered the man, and he refused to back off until the suspect pulled out a screwdriver and threat- ened to stab him. Even as the suspect ran, this con- cerned citizen called 911 on his cell phone, and New Westminster police were able to nab the culprit. It turns out that the Surrey RCMP had a warrant out for his arrest for breach of probation.

This is just a quick example of how our communities and police forces are cooperating to make our streets safer. We can't say for sure if this criminal would have been picked up sooner if PRIME-BC was already up and running, but it would have provided an additional tool. Right now police departments and detachments use different computer systems and databases and often collect information in a way that proves difficult to share. Bill 12 will bring consistency and a strong sys- tem of cooperation amongst police throughout the province.

The provincial government, along with communities and police throughout B.C., is moving towards one goal: improving people's lives now and in the future. This government is keeping its promise to British Columbians. We're committed to pursuing better ways of preventing and combatting crime and of making our streets and our communities safer for people. This new technology will help us do that. I would like to con- gratulate the Solicitor General, his staff and police forces across B.C. on this innovative and significant crime-fighting system. J.

Bray: I rise with great pleasure to support Bill 12, the Police Amendment Act, 2003, and to support both the concept of PRIME as well as the actual software itself and what it's going to mean to policing in the province and certainly in my community of Victoria. As the member for Victoria-Hillside pointed out, I come from Victoria, where we have 13 municipalities in the capital region. However, criminals don't recog- nize those borders. Criminals don't say: "Oops, this is actually going into Saanich. Maybe I'll stop here."

TUESDAY, MARCH 11, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5393 Criminals don't respect those borders whatsoever. We have phenomenal police officers throughout the capital region in all the various detachments and forces, but the reality is that they have limits — under current technology and current ways — in which information is shared. What this bill does, and what PRIME will do, is break down those borders. It provides the tools for police officers at the street level to deal effectively as they interact with individuals in our community.

I want to spend just a moment and talk about the Victoria police, because quite often in our society the only time police ever get any mention is if something negative happens or there's some criticism. Day in and day out the police officers in our communities across this province, and certainly in Victoria, work 12-hour shifts dealing with difficult, dangerous and complex situations every hour they're on the job. They don't do it because they want to make lots of money. Police offi- cers, although they're paid well, are certainly not the highest-paid people in our society.

Police officers do it because they have a personal commitment to our community. They have a personal commitment to the streets, to the people, to the children and to the seniors that live in our community. That's why they do that job, just as firefighters do. Police officers are committed to our community. [1035] It's incumbent on us as legislators to recognize that commitment among our police officers. They are among the unsung heroes of our community. They're out there every day and every night on our behalf, and they keep our streets safe. They deal with the people who are the most difficult in our society.

We as legisla- tors should recognize that, and we should honour our police officers every single day. What I'm so pleased about with Bill 12, and with PRIME, is that it recog- nizes that there are times when leadership can provide the tools to the front-line officers so they can do exactly what they want to do, which is to provide safety and protection for our communities. The Victoria police have had a long and distin- guished history here in British Columbia as being one of the stellar police forces and one of the first police forces in the province. They have an unbridled com- mitment to our community.

They have been innovative and creative all the way along, way back to the Hud- son's Bay days. But recently a very significant issue occurred in the capital region that I think has made policing that much more effective here in the capital region. I'm speaking of the amalgamation of the Victoria police force with the Esquimalt police force to help break down those barriers and to provide better coor- dination on issues such as forensic science, homicide investigations and other special task forces, and in rec- ognition that our officers deserve the best training available.

They deserve the best opportunities and the best supports available, and this amalgamation has allowed the capital region to have a dynamic, modern, progressive police force patrolling our streets both in Victoria and in Esquimalt. There are winners in this, and there are losers in this. The winners are the members of the community. The losers are the criminals, because now they're deal- ing with a more coordinated police force, a more com- municative police force, better trained officers and bet- ter use of our resources. What PRIME will do is further enhance that.

It will ensure that when a crime is com- mitted in Prince George and that criminal, that suspect, makes their way down to Victoria and is on our streets — potentially evading prosecution, perhaps planning more crime — if our police officers on the ground do a roadside stop or do some other sort of investigation and find that individual and look on PRIME, they will know immediately that this is a person who has a war- rant up in Prince George, that this person is potentially dangerous and potentially violent, and that person will be off the streets. That wouldn't happen without PRIME.

The police may do a check, a roadside check, and let that person go. Two or three days later they get the paper informa- tion from the fax machine that that person just commit- ted or was a suspect in a violent crime in Prince George. By then it's too late, and they may, in fact, have committed another crime. PRIME allows police officers t o h a v e t h a t t o o l o f i n f o r m a t i o n i n r e a l t i m e i n t h e i r patrol car. The difference that that will make for public safety cannot be underestimated.

The difference that that will make for our police officers to be able to do their job as effectively as they want to cannot be under- estimated. The other thing that's really critical with this par- ticular issue is that the province is taking the lead not just in legislation, not just in mandating this and say- ing, "Go forth, police forces, and deal with this," but we have provided the leadership in the technical delivery of this system, in the testing and the funding of this system. For police forces, all that's going to be required is to provide the service in their patrol car.

In some cases it will be less expensive than the current systems they're operating. [1040] We have actually shown the leadership not just in modern policing and not just the legislative frame- work, but we have put our money where our mouths are to ensure that police forces can actually operate with this and have enhanced service because they're not having to deal with a huge amount of cost. They can use the same equipment that they have in order to operate PRIME. That's the kind of technological study that's important.

That's the kind of innovation and work that the civil service in the Ministry of Solicitor General did to ensure that this works for everybody. The last thing I want to speak about, Mr. Speaker — because I know there are other members who wish to speak — is that this is showing the kind of leadership we talked about in our New Era document. I heard the Solicitor General, as he started off debate, talk about one of our commitments, which is improved safety and improved communities, safe communities and safe schools. Well, the police want that as well. They've always wanted that, but sometimes, if they're not given

5394 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 11, 2003 the tools, they can't maximize their ability to provide that support. PRIME is a tool that will allow them to make our streets safer, our schools safer, our communities safer right now — not five, six, seven, eight years out, but right now. That impact will make all of us feel safer. In Victoria, which is a growing urban centre, this kind of tool will make a visible difference for us, for our tour- ists that come here and for our schools. I for one wel- come it, and I know that we have one of the best police forces in Canada under Chief Paul Battershill.

They've been part of this, they've tested this, and they have shown that it works. I'm just so pleased we're provid- ing this tool to the rest of the province, because it will make a big difference. R. Hawes: L i k e m y c o l l e a g u e s , I r i s e t o s p e a k i n support of this bill which, as my colleagues previously have mentioned, is really good news in this province — bad news for criminals, but good news for the peo- ple of the province, good news for lowering crime rates in this province. I want to come at this from a slightly different per- spective than my colleagues have to date.

I want to talk for a minute about what happens about every August in every city hall across this province. That's when the city councils begin its deliberations for the next year's budget. Every city council that governs a city over 5,000 people pays for its local police. The larger com- munities pay 90 percent of the cost of the police. Every year there's a struggle between the local city council and the police department, whether it be RCMP or a private police force, about hiring new policemen. They're very expensive.

As everyone knows, in every level of government and in every household generally, there is a budget struggle over various issues on a fairly frequent basis. At city halls there are all kinds of competing needs for money, and the police are but one of those competing needs. So what happens every year is that the police put forward their case for new policemen, and the city council tries to find a compromise that's going to pro- vide some more police protection but not everything the police have asked for, because they don't have the money to do it.

This is a tool that increases the efficiency, poten- tially, of police on the ground as they work. Anything that can increase the efficiency of police helps in that debate over how many policemen you should have. This is not a reason to have fewer policemen, but it is a means of making those policemen that you have on the ground much, much more effective. They're not spend- ing time particularly on paper files, and there's still a lot of cities in this province that run on paper files. PRIME eliminates paper files. This is a huge step for- ward.

I want to just mention that I went on a ride-around some years ago — before there were on-board com- puters in the city I live in, in Mission — as the mayor of Mission. I went on a ride-around in a police car, and as calls came in from the dispatch centre for emergency dispatching, the officer would pull over to the side of the road, get out his little piece of paper and write down some file numbers and other things. I asked him: "Gee, you know, this sounds like a real emer- gency. Why aren't we rushing to get there?" And he said, "Well, I have to get this stuff down first.

I have to write down the time and the file number." All of these details really were delaying him in where he was going. [1045] One of the calls we attended was a domestic dis- pute. There was no information about the people that w e r e i n v o l v e d . A s h e e x p l a i n e d t o m e a s w e w e n t there, one of the most dangerous things for a police officer is to go to domestic disputes, because you never know what you're going to get into. Quite often you don't know the full history of the people that are in- volved in the domestic dispute. They're very, very dangerous.

PRIME provides the kind of information, or should be providing the kind of information, that a police officer needs when he goes into that kind of situation. From a public safety or a police safety per- spective, this is certainly a great improvement. I can tell you that some years ago, there was a psy- chiatric release from a forensic psychiatric institution into my community. The police were not notified prop- erly. There were conditions on this person, who was quite dangerous, and he went missing. He didn't report in where he was supposed to report in.

The police were dispatched to go and basically pick him up. They didn't know anything about this person's history — nothing. They didn't know he was in the community, and they didn't know how dangerous he potentially was when they went to knock on his door. That's the kind of thing that puts not just the police but the community at large in danger. I would hope we would be able to get that kind of information on PRIME, and I'm quite sure that it will be. I think back to a previous life when I was the man- ager of a bank.

I recall a situation where somebody came in and cashed Olympic coins, if you remember those — $100 Olympic coins, he had. It was a very un- usual situation, and he wasn't exactly a wholesome- looking person trying to cash these coins in. He was delayed at the counter while the staff made phone calls to the police to ask about these coins: "Were there any reported thefts of Olympic coins?" The answer came back: "No, there were no thefts." So this fellow was given $100 for each of the coins. Within a couple of hours the police showed up wanting to take possession of the coins because, in- deed, they were stolen.

The information had taken a long time to travel between police departments. In fact, the bank was out the money. This is an example where PRIME would have that out immediately. Likely the perpetrator would have been apprehended right there at the bank. The bank would not have been out the money. The person who lost the coins originally got the coins back ultimately through the police, I think, but the perpetrator got away. That's the kind of thing that PRIME would help stop.

TUESDAY, MARCH 11, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5395 I think about a situation in Mission a couple of years ago. There was a covert police operation going on where police from another city were following some- body. They had information he was going to do a break-in with a partner on some business. They didn't know where, so they had him under surveillance. They were from a different community, and they were un- able to communicate or didn't communicate with the Mission RCMP to tell them they had followed him into Mission and were observing what he was doing.

He, in fact, broke into a business within the district of Mission. As the police from another city closed in to make an arrest, he got in his car and rammed theirs and escaped. As he escaped, he drove past a routine patrol car from the district of Mission's RCMP detach- m e n t , a n d t h e y t o o k u p c h a s e . T h e y d i d n ' t k n o w h e had been part of a break-in. They didn't know anything about the history, and there was no way for these two police vehicles that were involved to communicate with each other. So they chased him because he was speeding.

They chased him across the bridge into the Abbotsford area. He was going too fast. They dropped off in the chase, but the perpetrator ultimately rammed an innocent person driving in a car which was pulling out of a service station. A young fellow was killed. An innocent victim was killed. That's the kind of thing that probably could have been averted. With communication between these po- lice forces, it's very likely that the Mission police would have been providing some kind of backup to this cov- ert operation, watching this fellow break into a busi- ness in Mission.

It's not possible under today's com- munication, because there is just no coordinated com- munication vehicle or records management system in this province. [1050] PRIME does provide that. I have talked to the po- lice in my own community and in other communities about this. It's strange, you know, that many police seem to think the platform they're operating on is the best one and that everyone should adopt theirs. The problem is that they're all somewhat different, and they don't communicate with each other. What it has taken is some leadership to just say: "Look, this is it.

This is the system that is going to be adopted in this province." It has some great innovative things to it. It provides many, many features that other communications or records management systems in police forces don't provide. The biggest thing — and it's been mentioned here today — is real-time communication. Having rid- den around with the police and not being a policeman but being impressed with the kinds of things they do, I can tell you I can understand how that's such an im- portant addition to the tools in the police toolbox.

On the ride-around that I was on with the police, a call came in dispatching the police to arrest a fellow that had beaten up his girlfriend, and he was 6 foot 8 and 250 pounds. That's the only description they had — and blonde hair. We went to the address — I can tell you the police were pretty nervous about it; I certainly was — and he wasn't there. As it turned out, he was at a local beer parlour. The police went to the beer par- lour. Now, they're looking for a 6-foot-8, 250-pound fellow. He's probably not very difficult to spot, but there were no pictures of him available.

They could only go by the fact that he was 6 foot 8. That's what distinguished him from the rest of the crowd. PRIME would have put a picture of this fellow right in the police car. They would have known exactly w h o t h e y w e r e l o o k i n g f o r . I n f a c t , w h a t t h e y w o u n d up having to do was wait outside the bar for a huge guy to come out, and try to make an arrest there. They probably would have done it differently had they known what this fellow looked like as he was sitting in the bar. There probably would have been a better and safer way to make this arrest.

Ultimately, the arrest was made, and nobody got hurt, but I can tell you I know how nervous those po- licemen were. I know how many policemen came to provide each other with backup, because when you get somebody that sounds that large and, as it turned out, is a fairly angry person, there is some danger. PRIME puts a big tool in the hands of police, but it also safeguards innocent victims like the bank when it's cashing a $100 coin or somebody who might be the victim of a car chase as it crosses municipal boundaries from one community to another.

There may be more ability for the police in the next community to avert or to stop the fleeing person. The other thing, and the last thing, is the potential improvement in efficiencies of the police as they work. That makes a huge difference, as I said, as the man- power in each police department is debated each year by local city councils.

At the very least, as we put the policemen that we do on the street at great expense to municipalities, if we can make them more efficient, if we can help them clear more files so they're carrying in their own personal portfolio fewer open police files and help them close those files quicker, it not only im- proves statistics…. I know the Progress Board has re- ported that we are tenth out of ten provinces in crime rates in this country.

If this assists us to break some of those cases, to close files, to improve our statistical per- formance, that assists us in proving that this is a safe and a great place to live. We all know it is, but those statistics are very troublesome. PRIME is going to help a lot with those stats. Everything about this is right, so I'd like to com- mend the Solicitor General for having the foresight and the courage to stand up to those who would not want to see a unified information management system and to put this through across the whole province. As the Solicitor General said, this is it.

There's going to be one records information system. I commend him for it, and I know this is going to unroll very smoothly. Congratulations and thank you. [1055] J. Nuraney: I also rise in support of this bill, as my other colleagues have. It is once again an example of where this government is going. The government took upon itself a mandate to bring in all the new techno-

5396 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 11, 2003 logical tools that were available out there to make sure we use these tools and technology for the maximum benefit of British Columbians. I would like to read to you the vision this ministry has set upon itself. The vision says: "To make people feel safe at home and in their communities and have confidence in the efficiency, effectiveness, responsiveness and integrity of corrections programs and policing." This brings forth the effectiveness and responsiveness that the So- licitor General has in mind.

PRIME is a technology that will help to integrate all the different police forces in this province. I've had the opportunity to chair the police com- plaints commission review process, and while we were conducting this process, we received several submis- sions where people were complaining about the way our policing was taking place. One of the things that was also very strong in the message we got was the difficulties the police themselves were having in doing their job efficiently. PRIME, I think, will help bring about the sense of efficiency and sense of effectiveness that our police forces really need.

More importantly, it is a question of integration. The Solicitor General, in the final analysis, has this vi- sion that at some point in time, he would like to make sure that all policing in our province comes under an umbrella of integrated services. Having said that, it is very important that any tool we can give the police forces to make their work easier and more efficient is something to be commended. We in Burnaby have several SkyTrain stations. One of our problems that is a reason for this facility, which is indeed a facility for our people living in Burnaby, is the element of crime.

As you know, criminals have also established for themselves a sense of sophistication in how they com- mit these crimes and also the speed with which they do this. This technology that the Solicitor General is bring- ing about in Bill 12 is something that is going to help deter these kinds of criminal activities that are taking place in and around the SkyTrain stations.

The effi- ciency of being able to exchange information, the avail- ability of records at your fingertips as and when you need them, and the ability to identify the people who are recurrently engaged in these kinds of activities are indeed great things that are going to happen for us once this system is introduced. As you also know, we have seen the increase over time of criminal activities that are taking place in greater Vancouver and indeed in British Columbia. One of the reasons why it is also taking place, I think, is the sense of not being caught that exists among crimi- nals.

That is also because of the lack of technology, of information and of coordination among police forces that is there right now. I believe that PRIME, which is state-of-the-art in technology of this kind, will certainly bring about a sense of security for the people who live in our riding, in our community and in British Columbia. I think this bill will indeed enhance the sense of security and safety our people will feel. I fully support this bill. E. Brenzinger: It gives me great pleasure to rise to speak to Bill 12, the Police Amendment Act, 2003.

A key component of the bill deals with a new computer system for the police called the police records informa- tion management environment, or PRIME. Up to now, B.C.'s police departments have used a variety of differ- ent computers and data systems, and this made it diffi- cult for different detachments and departments to share information. [1100] Criminals don't care about municipal borders. They don't care about operating according to police jurisdic- tion boundaries. This is why moving to a more modern integrated system is necessary if we are going to make our streets safer.

PRIME will integrate existing police information systems to assist in breaking down the silo effect of fighting crime. It will connect every municipal police department and RCMP detachment across British Co- lumbia, giving them shared access to information about criminals and crimes within minutes. This is good news for the residents of Surrey-Whalley. In Sur- r e y w e h a v e a n R C M P d e t a c h m e n t , w h i l e V a n c o u v e r has its own municipal task force. PRIME will make it easier for the Surrey RCMP and the Vancouver police department to work together to solve crimes and catch criminals.

Car theft is a good example of how the system will assist police across B.C. to gather and track the neces- sary information to crack down on thieves. We cur- rently know that there are approximately 4,000 auto thefts a year in Surrey. PRIME will make it possible for information that is input at the side of the road about an auto theft in Surrey to be available within minutes to an officer on the road in Langley, who may happen to see the stolen vehicle and can take appropriate ac- tion. It is my hope that by moving to this fully inte- grated system, we will see those numbers start to drop.

PRIME will also save officers valuable time, as in- formation previously input does not need to be re- entered. Under this system, when a driver's licence is swiped, the information will be put in appropriate boxes automatically. This means officers will be able to spend more time catching criminals instead of being tied up with paperwork. Our new-era vision is to create safer communities throughout B.C. This bill is an important part of seeing that vision through. Another step towards building safer communities was announced in the throne speech.

I am speaking of the dialogue on crime, which will bring together community leaders, MLAs, law enforcement experts and others in pursuit of better ways to prevent and combat crime in our schools and on our streets. In Surrey-Whalley we are also taking an active stance to make our community safer. Recently I hosted a community seniors safety and information meeting in response to a series of home invasions in which inno- cent residents were attacked. The majority of the vic- tims were elderly. At this meeting it was determined that we must be vigilant in spotting suspicious activity,

TUESDAY, MARCH 11, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5397 recording important details and offering accurate re- ports to the police. Presenters also provided tips on personal safety and how to secure our homes. They showed us that we all have an important role to play in preventing these acts of violence in our community. Bill 12 is an important step forward in solving and preventing crimes. In fact, we will become possibly the first jurisdiction in North America where actual real- time police information and investigational tools are in every area of our province on the exact same system.

PRIME will truly transform the way police work is done. It is an excellent example of how, by giving our police the tools, we can make our streets, our schools and our communities a safer place. The residents of Surrey-Whalley will certainly be pleased that this government is following through on making our streets safer by taking this step in provid- ing our police with the latest technology, and it is wel- comed by all. It is especially welcomed by my constitu- ents of Surrey-Whalley, who will no doubt see an im- pact on crime in our riding. I.

Chong: I, too, rise in support of Bill 12, the Police Amendment Act, 2003. From the outset I also want to say that I offer my wholehearted support. I think it is time that the Police Act was reviewed. It is time that amendments were made to it to bring us into the twenty-first century. This amendment to the Police Act is particularly important in this day and age, when technology is moving so very quickly. Criminals have the most so- phisticated tools and machinery — if that's what you would like to call it — to use in their productivity, to use for their betterment.

We have to allow our law en- forcement officials the opportunity to have the most sophisticated tools in their hands, to be able to battle with the criminals. [1105] This legislation is about expanding the police re- cords and information management environment in this province. It is about fighting crime. It is about en- hancing public safety. It is about improving law en- forcement. Who here in this chamber would not agree that that is very, very necessary in this day and age? About three years ago — I think it was in the year 2000 — I had the opportunity to do a number of police ride-alongs.

It's been some time since I have done that. I represent a riding that encompasses two municipali- ties, Oak Bay–Gordon Head, one of which is in the lar- ger municipality of Saanich. Back in the year 2000, I contacted those municipalities as well as the Victoria police department, because I know a number of my constituents have their businesses downtown. I felt all three departments deserved my attention at that time. So I went on these police ride-alongs. I was out there about four or eight hours — I think six hours, at the most, in one ride-along — so it was quite a long shift that I was there with them.

I can tell you that each municipality was very dis- tinct in its own way. In Oak Bay we're mostly residen- tial, and we spent our time driving around the parks and the homes and the communities to see what kind of activity was around. Because it's a small municipal- ity, we probably circled it about 20 times that evening. We'd come into the station, have a small break, and we'd go back out again. I saw what the police officers were dealing with. At that time they introduced me to another infor- mation management tool they had, which was CPIC.

I know that the member for Bulkley Valley–Stikine spoke last week and spoke more broadly of CPIC. He has more knowledge, more firsthand knowledge of that. I can tell you that the police officer, who shared that information with me, explained that while it was a great tool, it really was very outdated. Sometimes while they were logging in and pulling up information, it would crash or would be ineffective for a number of hours — perhaps because it's a Canadian system, and it's not locally administered here.

They had to depend on another locality to input that information for them t o b e a b l e t o h a v e u p - t o - d a t e i n f o r m a t i o n . I n f a c t , i t wasn't even that up to date. So I heard about the CPIC. I heard him talking about the necessary tools they need and the day they could look ahead, when we would have something that was more real, on-line and real-time, to be able to fight the elements of crime. He said: "You know, I've heard about this. People have talked about it.

I just hope it's around by the time I retire." Unfortunately, that officer I rode with retired about a year and a half later. He is not now seeing the benefits of this amendment to the Police Act, which will provide for this very important tool. When I rode along with the municipality of Saanich police officials, it was quite different as well. It's a much larger municipality — in fact, one of the largest in terms of land base, particularly here in greater Victo- ria. We went through all the residential neighbour- hoods.

There are also some business areas and business districts in Saanich, and we rode through those areas as well. The police officers would point out to me: "Well, we know what activity takes place in that house. We know who lives in this place. The fact that this car is home in that driveway is a good sign." I would ask w h y .

H e w o u l d s a y : " W e l l , t h a t m e a n s h e ' s h e r e a n d not out there committing a crime." They would know that there were some households — in fact, there would be those who resided there, whether they owned the property or rented — that have come up on their records time and time again. It would always depend on what records they had. They may not always know what that particular individual had done in another municipality.

Again, those officers spoke to me and advised me that it would be nice to know what's happening across the border, even though it's only moments away. [1110] When I rode in the police car with the officers from the city of Victoria — quite another perspective that I had to look at, because that, in fact, did contain the business district, many of the businesses which were under siege from the elements in the wee hours of the

5398 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 11, 2003 morning…. Because I rode around with this particular officer, we only had a certain area. Being a larger city, one where there are so many facets, officers are divided up into areas, and they have to constantly patrol that. We were in a particular area which did include the downtown, and I saw all the people on the streets that w e r e t h e r e . I s a w j u s t p e o p l e w a l k i n g . I n m y m i n d I just thought they were people leaving one place, head- ing home, going to work or whatever, but the police officers knew.

They knew who these people were, and they said: "Well, we'll just drive along this road. We'll make a circle around, and we'll come back and just see where they go. If they duck into an alley, we'll send somebody around to look." These people are known to them. Again I thought, what if they left here and went to another jurisdiction? How would we know? That's why it is so important that we have this integration. That is why it is so important to be able to interact with other police officers even in a small area here in greater Victoria.

I can go into one area of greater Victoria and be through three municipalities in less than 15 minutes. If I start in Saanich South — say in the Broadmead area — and drive through Mount Doug park to Shelbourne Street, which is Gordon Head, the area I represent, and then turn right along Hillside Avenue, I'd be into the Victoria municipality. I can do that all within 15 min- utes. If I want to circle back, I would be in Oak Bay in another five or seven minutes. So in a matter of 20 minutes, I will have gone through three municipalities. Four electoral areas are represented by that.

These three municipalities each have police departments: Saanich, Oak Bay and Victoria. It's very important that we know that as easy as I as an individual or any taxpayer or citizen can move out throughout their municipality, so, too, can those who commit crimes, and they do this. They do this on an hourly basis. They do this on a daily basis. Whatever means we can have to track them, to find out what they're up to, is going to be a day where we can enforce the law in a much better way and where our citizens can feel safer. It is important for us to be able to use the benefits of this new sophisticated tool.

As the Solicitor General indicated when he introduced this act, it's revolution- ary. I absolutely agree; it is revolutionary. It's impor- tant and it's necessary. I know — as members rise after me and speak, and as those before me have said — that each and every one of us who cares about our commu- nity and who cares about public safety will rise up in support of this. I can't imagine anyone who would not support this, except the criminals, and that's just too bad. Another incident occurred not too long ago in my area. That had to do with a dangerous sex offender who had been released.

It was in the paper, so I know it's public knowledge. He had been released, actually, in the Victoria area, but he made his way into Oak Bay. In fact, he alarmed many of my constituents. I was alarmed for them as well, because immediately they felt their safety was jeopardized. The way they went about doing their business every day was compro- mised. They did not even feel safe to walk out of their homes into their front yards or to go to the grocery store, knowing that there could be someone out there and wondering if the police have the tools to watch and monitor what is happening.

I believe this is the step that is going to allow us to provide that extra measure of comfort, of feeling safe, to our citizens. This new information management system will break down those barriers that previously were not allowing departments to communicate with each other. I know that in my area, in Oak Bay, people will be very, very pleased about that. [1115] Home invasions are also an ever-increasing crime that occurs.

Because I represent a residential area with many seniors, I know it's very, very important for them t o k n o w t h a t w e a r e l o o k i n g a t h o m e i n v a s i o n s a n d will ensure that they will be kept under control and that enforcement will be very, very strong in this area.

With this new information management system, I think — again, as other speakers have said — the informa- tion will be posted that much more quickly and will allow that much more opportunity for our law en- forcement officials to ensure home invasions that oc- cur, perhaps a few minutes away, will be able to be stopped before they occur in another area. We know that when people burglarize or there are home inva- sions, sometimes they occur within a matter of an hour; three or four houses are struck. When cars are vandal- ized, sometimes a whole string of them are vandalized en route from one place to another.

If they cross a boundary, if they cross a border, will that officer know? In the past, perhaps not, but now they will. I just wanted to be able to rise this morning to offer my comments on Bill 12, because I think it's very im- portant. I think all members are going to appreciate the value that this is going to bring to their communities — the public safety value that none of us will ever, ever be able to measure. I applaud the Solicitor General for bringing this initiative forward.

I applaud all the mu- nicipal police departments and RCMP detachments across British Columbia who have worked with him, who have shared with him their frustrations and the solutions, because only in working together are we going to be able to find solutions so that we can all move forward together in this twenty-first century. L. Mayencourt: It's a pleasure to stand in support of Bill 12. I believe that this is a revolutionary document, a revolutionary bill in the history of British Columbia.

This is absolutely leading edge, and it is the most sig- nificant advancement in police services in our country's history and certainly in our province. The introduction of PRIME gives police officers the tools to coordinate their efforts to fight crime. My community is one of those that has been part of the pilot process for this particular crime-fighting tool. We're very satisfied that this is an excellent addition to the police force's set of tools to fight crime and make our streets safer.

TUESDAY, MARCH 11, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5399 Today we're unleashing a very powerful tool that will help us fight crime in every community and make our streets safer. Included in this bill are provisions for the orderly implementation of this new database. It requires the various police forces to manage their ongoing maintenance in a coordinated fashion, and it requires them to employ good governance on all issues of the maintenance of that particular program. My question, as I think about this bill, is: how many lives are really affected by crime?

In British Columbia, s o m a n y o f u s , a s m e m b e r s o f t h i s L e g i s l a t u r e , h a v e spoken to families of people that were victims of crime, and we feel a deep sense of compassion for those indi- viduals. I also want to know just how many lives might be affected by this and how many lives might be saved. I grew up in the municipality of Surrey, and for the last 25 years I've lived in the city of Vancouver. In my teens, I grew up in an era of great fear. We had a series of abductions of young children in our community, which later resulted in the charges against Clifford Olson.

In Vancouver we have had for the last several years an ongoing issue of missing women from the downtown east side. These are women that are typi- cally working in the sex trade or are affected by the drug culture in that community. Many of those people were disenfranchised and did not have family supports that could help the police link all of their particular stories together to help them uncover the mystery of why they were disappearing. [1120] People in our community really want to know that they're safe.

They want to know there's an effort being made by community police services to ensure that their streets and their communities are safe. They have an absolute right to that. They want to know that we are going to work together.

When I reflect on the case of the missing women in the downtown east side and I reflect on the case of the missing children in Surrey in the late seventies, I know that the only way we were able to finally solve those cases was when police forces from different jurisdic- tions were able to share information in as quick a way as possible and coordinate their efforts to find the per- petrators. That's an important thing, and PRIME allows us to do that. I'm very supportive of this particular bill.

I also want to join with the member for Oak Bay–Gordon Head to say that it's very important that we applaud the efforts of the police services across this province — their agreement to select one system that will coordi- nate their efforts and that will help them to fight crime in communities throughout British Columbia. I know there are many speakers that wish to talk to this issue, so I don't want to take too much time.

I j u s t w a n t e d t o m a k e s u r e t h e p e o p l e o f m y c o m m u - nity know that this is an important tool that will help o u r c o m m u n i t y b e s a f e r , t h a t i t w i l l b e m a i n t a i n e d properly, that it will be subject to good governance and that this will, in effect, provide a safer commu- nity not only in Vancouver-Burrard but throughout the province. K. Johnston: I'm happy to rise today and speak to Bill 12, the Police Amendment Act, 2003.

I think it's really clear from the list of speakers that have put down their names to talk today how important it is for this bill to be put forward. This is basically an informa- tion technology bill, and I've never seen one like this create such interest. I was taken by the comments of the member for Bulkley Valley–Stikine last week when he talked about his experience as a young police officer in British Co- lumbia. He talked about call boxes and flashing blue lights and the lack of communication and the very, very hard things he had to face when he was trying to do his job.

It struck me that we've come an awful long way, but really not far enough. When I was a young fellow growing up in Vancouver- Fraserview, like everybody else and like society at that time, doors were wide open and people were wel- comed into your home. If you had a screen door lock, that was a big event. Of course, over the last lot of years, society has changed, the world has changed, and now when you walk around urban areas like the area of Vancouver-Fraserview, you see a lot of bars, a lot of barricaded homes. That is strictly because the whole attitude, the whole situation towards crime, has changed.

There's now a tremendous, tremendous fear of crime, breaking and enterings, home invasions and, recently, absolutely disgusting cowardly attacks on seniors in their own residences. You know, in Vancouver, according to statistics put forward, 81 percent of all crimes are property crimes. That is pretty telling stuff, I think, when you're talking about the fear and the B and Es and the situation in homes.

It wasn't too long ago that if a police car was chasing somebody down Knight Street, for example, in Vancouver and they crossed a bridge going into an- other municipality like Richmond, there was absolutely no way of communicating other than maybe a phone call to each detachment, back and forth to each police organization to try to track. That wasn't that long ago. I think we're making great strides.

Certainly, the PRIME initiative will in fact do that in the future. [1125] In my experience in the civic arena, I was once given the opportunity to go to a police station after a great rash of breaking and enterings in an area. There was a task force put forward in that police station in terms of trying to track down the criminals. The most surprising thing, and the thing that struck me the most, was…. I remember being taken into a room, and there was this massive 8-by-10 or 8-by-12 wall, and on that wall were Polaroid pictures of everybody involved in B and Es that had been identified by the police.

Under the names of the various pictures — and it covered the whole wall — they had the locations where the people had come from. It had every municipality in the lower mainland: New Westminster, Burnaby, Surrey, Rich- mond, Vancouver. It had them all there. So the police knew where these folks were coming from. They were coming in, basically in flying squads, to do B and Es and then leaving that municipality immediately, be-

5400 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 11, 2003 cause the criminals knew there was no communication between the police. There was no communication, so they could have that stuff fenced in another municipal- ity well before any communications took place. Well, I believe Mr. Criminal should be told that those days are, in fact, over. I think the initiative with PRIME is going to put a big dent in the criminals' atti- tude in terms of being able to get away scot-free from municipality to municipality.

We had a demonstration of a particular PRIME, and it was very amazing to see how they eventually will be able to take pictures and pass them on screens from police car to police car. That will go a long way in determining who these criminals are and in communications. One part that really struck me about this whole thing…. If you've ever had a personal experience — and I have — w i t h r e g a r d t o s o m e b o d y w h o ' s g o n e missing, there was a great lack of coordination in terms of pictures or letting other police departments know that somebody was in fact missing.

It really was a pa- per trail of faxes and information and phone calls and stuff like that. It's very, very scary for families when somebody goes missing and they know that the police don't have the ability to communicate or show the pic- ture or really bring attention to that particular individ- ual. I believe PRIME will be a great thing for that par- ticular missing-person experience in terms of tracking them down and speeding up the process of trying to find these folks when they go missing.

The Oppal commission in 1994, the inquiry into policing in British Columbia, indicated that informa- tion-sharing was a very, very key recommendation of that inquiry. I think this initiative by the Solicitor Gen- eral is, in fact, addressing that. I'd like to, if I might, quote the Vancouver city council, who have been involved in the PRIME project since 1998, I believe. I just want to read what a report from council says: "Council has been a strong sup- porter of the PRIME-BC project. Mobile reporting means that officers can remain deployable in the com- munity for longer periods.

The sharing of information means that more criminals will be identified and that solve rates will improve, positively affecting public safety." That's from the experience of people who have actually done the trial on this system. For me the bottom line in all of this is, in fact, that the police officer will have more time to actually do what he was trained to do, and that is being a profes- sional police officer on the street as opposed to stand- ing around filling out forms. That will be a great com- munity thing for us.

Speaking of community, I do be- lieve — I have to put a plug in — that at the end of the day the community has to help in taking back the streets. Through community initiatives and community involvements and community policing initiatives, that will also assist greatly in dealing with criminals in our society. I just want to speak quickly of an organization in Vancouver-Fraserview called the Bobolink Park Patrol, which is a group of citizens that decided to take back an area around a park called Bobolink Park because of nighttime parties and street racing and all kinds of il- licit activities.

This group went out and, as citizens, did w h a t g o o d c i t i z e n s s h o u l d d o . T h e y m a d e i t d i f f i c u l t for the criminal element to operate. So I want to take my hat off to them. The bottom line, again, with this PRIME…. PRIME is a giant step in the right direction of taking back the streets from the bad guys. It is just one step of a puzzle t h a t w e h a v e t o d o i n o r d e r t o r e d u c e c r i m e i n o u r communities. I am fully supportive of this initiative, and I thank the Solicitor General for taking the lead in Canada in this particular initiative. [1130] T.

Christensen: I t ' s i n d e e d m y p l e a s u r e t o s t a n d and enthusiastically endorse Bill 12, the Police Amendment Act, 2003. I think the Solicitor General has really come forward with a small piece of legislation that will have a very big effect on reducing crime and on our communities' ability to catch criminals through- out the province. This is forward-thinking and long-overdue legisla- tion.

It really came as a bit of a surprise to me when the legislation was first introduced — and we found out what it was about and how this new PRIME informa- tion system was going to work — that, in fact, it didn't already exist. I think most citizens around the province and most members of our communities would proba- bly assume that at this point in time, police in Vernon are quite able to share information closely with the police in Kelowna or with the police in the lower mainland or, for that matter, with police right across the province or right across the country. Unfortunately, that's simply not true.

They're able to pick up the phone and use the fax machine and some technology to transfer information, but until now there hasn't been something that really provides access to information around the province in real time. As we all know, if we think about it, good informa- tion is the foundation of all strong police work. With- out information, really, we're handcuffing our law en- forcement officials in terms of their ability to assist in protecting our communities.

There's no question that whether it's the RCMP or it's one of the municipal forces around the province, there is some very good police work being done throughout British Columbia. I think what this new PRIME information-sharing sys- tem is going to do is allow the good police work that's perhaps being done by the RCMP in my community to be shared with the RCMP in other parts of the prov- ince, as well as the municipal forces in other parts of the province and vice versa.

It doesn't matter where the foundation work is being done or the background in- vestigative work is being done on particular activities, that information can now be better shared around the province so that we will be much more successful in catching criminals in a timely manner. I think — and a number of previous speakers have commented on this — that all of us in our own com- munities have a great deal of effort being made to watch out for crime, to watch out for criminal activity,

TUESDAY, MARCH 11, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5401 to ensure that our police have the tools they need to track down criminals and bring them to justice.

In my own community, certainly, there's been a great deal of effort over the last number of years by volunteer groups to assist the local RCMP — whether that's Citi- zens on Patrol that are out in the evening in different parts of the community driving around and just really keeping their eyes open for suspicious activity that may be going on in the community or whether that's the community policing office, which I'm very fortu- nate to have about two doors away from my constitu- ency office.

The community policing office has a great roster of volunteers who are there to provide information to other community members about different programs the police are operating in the community. That office provides a very important outreach role in terms of ensuring the community is aware of the services avail- able and is aware of preventative measures that we can take as individual members of the community to try and ensure that we aren't victimized, whether that's a crime of violence or that's a property crime against our homes.

What this new PRIME system does, as I've said, is provide for the integration of all the available informa- tion so that it can be used in a comprehensive fashion to better track down criminals who are guilty of vari- ous activities , so that we can then get them moving through the system and ensure that they're brought to justice. I think, perhaps, one of the things we tend to overlook sometimes is that we're a very mobile society these days.

A number of the speakers have commented about the need to integrate local police forces — for example, in the lower mainland or Victoria — where you have a number of forces that really are serving the same urban area and the boundaries between the juris- diction of those forces are really artificial boundaries.

They may follow municipal boundaries, but the reality is that if you weren't from the community and you were just driving around, you wouldn't recognize that you were moving from one community to the next. [1135] The reality in this day and age is that criminal activ- ity can move from the lower mainland out into the Fraser Valley, right up into the Okanagan and beyond very quickly. We certainly know that it really doesn't matter where, perhaps, a crime has taken place. The offender may be 25 kilometres or 500 kilometres away very quickly.

We need to ensure that we're able to pass information between forces so that we can keep our eyes open and our local police forces can keep their eyes open for those suspects. One thing that hasn't been commented on a lot by the speakers this morning is another important issue that I think this new information system will help ad- dress, and that's one of officer safety. I have, I think, a particular sensitivity to officer safety because I have a brother who is a municipal police officer here in British Columbia.

I remember when, a little over ten years ago, my brother was a young fellow 20 or 21 years old and had been accepted by the municipal police force. He goes for his first day on the job, and he picks up his uniform. He picks up the telephone and phones my mother, and the first thing he says to my mother is: "I just picked up my bulletproof vest." Now, a tip to those new recruits: don't let that be the first thing you say to your mother, who is concerned about you becoming a police officer in the first place.

It really brought home to me that we take for granted that we have these officers in our communities who are out doing their jobs on a day-to-day basis. We see them drive by in their car, we see them out walking the streets and talking to somebody, but we don't re- member, on a day-to-day basis, the inherent danger in that job. Make no mistake about it: while, thankfully, most officers aren't going to come in contact with a true situation that endangers their life on a daily basis, the potential is always there.

I know, in speaking with my own brother, of numerous events where he and a part- ner or on his own had stopped a vehicle and found a weapon in the vehicle. There's always that potential for danger.

I'm very pleased that this new PRIME system, while it addresses issues of tracking criminals throughout the province, also has that ability to pro- vide real-time, immediate information to officers who may have pulled somebody over or stopped somebody on the side of the road, to ensure that the officer knows as much about that person as possible when they have to deal with them so that the potential for danger to the officer can be minimized as best as possible. Certainly, there's the issue of improved safety to our communities.

I don't think there's any doubt that this legislation and the introduction of the PRIME in- formation system are going to go a long way in ad- dressing community safety as well as that second and equally important — if not more important — issue of addressing officers' safety. I know that in my own community, like the mem- ber for Oak Bay–Gordon Head, we recently had a situation where there was a sex offender who had done his time and had refused to participate in treatment, who was released and chose — unfortunately — to make Vernon his home. That raises the tension in the community incredibly.

Thankfully, in the case of a sex offender, there's an opportunity for the police to release information that the individual is in the community so that the community can be a little more vigilant about the fact that they have an untreated offender in their midst. They can be a little more aware of that fact and be on guard. It also allows the police to better monitor what that individual is doing in the community. Thankfully, in my own community, in this particular case, this of- fender chose to move on, but certainly it does raise the heat in the community, and all of us have to be con- cerned.

As I see it, this PRIME system actually has the potential to broaden the public awareness that may be attracted in a sex offender case to other situations, so at least local officers are more aware of who is potentially in the community's midst and can be keeping their eyes on those folks.

5402 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 11, 2003 [1140] Mr. Speaker, all around, as I've said, this is long- overdue legislation. It's something that should really have been done when the technology first became available, which I suspect was a number of years ago. My hat is off to the Solicitor General for moving so quickly on this and to the police forces and municipali- ties around the province, which I know have worked with the Solicitor General over the last number of months to ensure that this would be a provincewide system. Really, unless it's provincewide, the true benefit isn't there.

I can only hope, on behalf of citizens in other provinces across this country, that as we move forward and once we show that this really works in British Columbia, we'll see it expand beyond our own p r o v i n c i a l b o r d e r s t o e n s u r e t h a t , i n f a c t , w e h a v e a system where we can track criminal activity right across the country. B. Penner: I , t o o , r i s e t o d a y t o a d d m y s u p p o r t t o the growing list of members in this Legislature that seem very enthusiastic about this clearly much-needed initiative on the part of the Solicitor General.

As indi- cated by other speakers, this multimillion-dollar project will speed up communication between police forces and help them share information in a more timely fash- ion. It will come as a surprise to some citizens, I'm sure, that much police cooperation currently happens on an almost informal basis with telephone calls between detachments, comparing notes and that type of thing. This will allow for a much more systematic approach to solving crime by sharing information.

I have personal experience dealing with people at the Chilliwack courthouse who, from time to time, ended up in the cells at the back of that facility. They would originate in Vancouver and come on a bit of a crime spree into the eastern Fraser Valley. That's not to say we don't have our own homegrown problems, but they would frequently make an outing for the week- end, end up in the lockup for the weekend and arrive in court Monday morning, where I would have an op- portunity to ask them how it was that they ended up in our fine city.

It became evident to me that what we needed were better linkages between the police de- tachments at the western end of the Fraser Valley and those in the eastern Fraser Valley. I believe Bill 12 represents a step in the right direc- tion in terms of greater integration overall with our police forces and how they manage themselves. Clearly, crooks don't respect municipal boundaries. We need, therefore, to think of ways of working across those boundaries when it comes to policing.

I know that the Solicitor General, in my discussions with him, has indicated his belief in and support for the overall effort of better integration between the police forces in the province. There are just far too many boundaries we've thrown up that, frankly, help the criminal get away. This new computerized system, I'm advised, will help the police detect patterns of crime more quickly. Again, because so many crimes take place across multiple municipal boundaries, the various patterns of crime that can help point a finger toward who is the culprit often go unnoticed for far too long.

I heard the member for Vancouver-Burrard reference a couple of cases, and I can think of others. He mentioned the Clifford Olson case and, of course, the terrible tragedy and ongoing trauma around the missing women's case in Vancou- ver. Of course, back in Ontario there are the horrific crimes committed by Paul Bernardo and his wife. Because of some difficulties sharing information among police forces, some of those early hints — those clues — were not detected at the time, and that allowed the criminals to carry on their ruthless ways longer than they should have been able to.

That could have been prevented much sooner. Again, by allowing po- lice detachments to share information on a more regu- lar basis, I'm confident we will be able to detect pat- terns of crime more quickly. Other members, including the member for Bulkley Valley–Stikine, made reference to CPIC, the Canadian Police Information Centre. That, of course, was revolu- tionary in its day, but that system is not without its faults.

As a lawyer who did some prosecution work prior to getting elected here in 1996, I can tell you that there were times I would go in to make a submission on sentencing, and I would be frustrated to know that certain convictions I had had a hand in securing, be- cause I had dealt with the case — I was the prosecutor in the case — were not reflected on the accused's criminal record as provided by CPIC. [1145] When I would make inquiries, I would be told that in certain situations either the data just never got en- tered in Ottawa for whatever reason — a backlog and delay — or alternatively, if the crime did not constitute an indictable offence and the person wasn't required to go for fingerprinting, then the criminal record was not entered in the CPIC database.

This represented a seri- ous error, because in many cases, due to the volume, the court pressure, the harried pace so often found in court — especially during remand days, when people may just be entering guilty pleas and getting on with sentencing — the Crown prosecutors rely on that CPIC printout. If there are convictions that aren't listed there, then the judge is not receiving the full benefit of the information about that person's background. Therefore, the sentence may not truly fit the crime and that crimi- nal's criminal record.

I'm confident and hopeful that this new system, the PRIME system that is supported by Bill 12, will further facilitate accurate and timely information not just to police but also to prosecutors, whose job it is to provide up-to-date information to the judge upon sentencing, so the judge can levy the appropriate sentence. I'll be one of the first people to say that all too often it ap- pears, from the public's perspective, that the sentences being imposed aren't appropriate. One possible explanation may be that, in some cases, complete information about a criminal's real

TUESDAY, MARCH 11, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5403 background is not brought to the attention of the adju- dicating judge. Again, CPIC — great in its day — has certain limitations, and it's a system that's aging. I'm really pleased that British Columbia is taking the lead in Canada by developing this provincewide network called PRIME. I also know, from talking to the Solicitor General, that his budget has been under pressure — as has been the case for all ministries — because our government is committed to balancing the budget and living within its means.

Nevertheless, and I think this is very impor- tant to stress, the Solicitor General has been able to make a commitment to fully fund the capital infrastructure costs of setting up this new system. That needs to be mentioned. That is a very significant com- mitment. I'm told it could cost anywhere between $14 million and $20 million — this in an era of belts being tightened — a very significant indicator that our gov- ernment, the B.C. Liberal government, is committed to public safety and has made this a key priority.

For that I again salute the Solicitor General for finding the re- sources within his stretched budget to do what really is in the public interest here, and that's move forward with the system. So much for the kudos. Now for some criticism from me, but it's not directed towards the provincial government. It is, however, directed towards the fed- eral government, and that relates to the DNA database.

Members will know that I've had an interest in this topic for quite a few years — since about the mid-1990s — and I'm continually frustrated at how slow our fed- eral government has been in moving forward with an up-to-date DNA database that can be effective in catch- ing criminals quicker, before they go on to commit fur- ther crimes. Let me give you a comparison of how things could be in Canada if our federal government was a bit more bold, a bit more creative, in moving forward with its DNA database. In England they have a DNA database that was set up in the early 1990s.

Virtually every criminal, no matter what the offence, has to have his or her DNA entered in that system. As a result, they have more than 1.7 million identified samples in their DNA database. As a result of that, police in England report that, every single week, they are matching 900 offences with 900 convicted criminals. In other words, they're solving a whole lot of cases. What are the comparable numbers for Canada? We have a total of 30,000 convicted criminals entered in our DNA database. Since the year 2000, a grand total of 400 cases across the country have been solved as a re- sult of the DNA database.

Let's just review those num- bers again: 900 per week in England; in Canada, a grand total of 400 in over two years. We can do much better. We need to. [1150] I have supported and spoken with our Attorney General and our Solicitor General prior to their meet- ings with Canada's justice ministers, provincial and federal. I know they have taken a message forward on behalf of British Columbians to the federal govern- ment, saying: "Let's get on with it. Let's take the next step." What is that next step?

In my view — and I be- lieve I speak for the government on this — the DNA database in Canada needs to include samples from everyone convicted of an indictable offence. At present there's a

schedule of offences that will require your DNA to be entered in the database. That list is not en- tirely comprehensive. There are many exemptions, many types of offences, which are not included. Even certain indictable offences are not compulsory in terms of supplying your DNA upon your conviction. I know there are civil libertarians who get very con- cerned over the whole issue of the DNA database, and I like to liken it to the fingerprint system we've had for many, many decades in Canada. That system requires a fingerprint to be given even before you're convicted.

It's at the charge approval stage where you're required to go and give your fingerprints, before you've been proven guilty in a court of law. In contrast, the DNA legislation in Canada…. All we're asking for is that after you've gone through the court process and been found guilty, you would be required to give a sample of your DNA for storage in the database for future comparison against crime scenes, where DNA can be collected even when they don't yet have a suspect in mind.

Obviously, when you can link a sample from a crime scene to a known offender that's already in your database, you can provide a link, and you can help solve the crime. There is more work to be done, and it is at the fed- eral level. I'm confident, however, that our Solicitor General and Attorney General will continue to advo- cate on behalf of British Columbians so we can make our communities and streets safer. The PRIME system that's been introduced here is a prime example of how that can be done. I've been waiting to use that phrase.

The DNA database nationally, however, will also yield incredible results for clearing the backlog and ulti- mately protecting Canadians, if we can just take an- other step forward in getting more samples into that database. Like any bank, the DNA databank works best when it has more deposits. With that and noting the hour, I'd like to conclude by saying that I certainly look forward to supporting this bill. I note that there is one other speaker who may wish to take the floor just before we rise and adjourn for the lunch break. R.

Sultan: Given the hour, I'm going to have to re- duce my two-hour crime and punishment speech down to five minutes, but I did want to have the op- portunity to rise and add my support to the Solicitor General for an extremely important bill. As others have noted before me, the issue of public safety is rising in public concern. We have problems of street racing on the North Shore. We have problems of smash-and-grab thieves on the North Shore. We have constituents very concerned about property crime on the North Shore.

Any tools we can put into the hands of our law enforcement officers are welcomed, I think, by our constituents on the North Shore.

5404 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 11, 2003 I took the trouble to interview the superintendent for the RCMP in North Vancouver, Gord Tomlinson, and also Grant Churchill, our chief of police. Gord, incidentally, served as a constable with our Solicitor General in Brooks, Alberta, 20 years ago and knows him well. Both of these leaders of our police organiza- tions on the North Shore support the PRIME bill fully. I went so far as to interview some of the people on the beat, as it were, in those organizations. Here are some of the comments I received. "PRIME is an aston- ishing system.

Yes, it stops at the British Columbia border, but like politics, most crime is local." Another comment was: "PRIME will be a significant leap for- ward. The concept is fabulous." For me perhaps the most astonishing comment was this: "PRIME will give us access to the city of Vancouver suspect list. Previ- ously, neither the city of Vancouver nor the city of Vic- toria shared data. Don't ask me why these two police forces would not share data.

It was weird." I was star- tled, I was shocked, and I was dismayed to find out that's how, in fact, our two largest metropolitan police forces in this province have been operating. I think this is very dismaying, and clearly the Solicitor General, who is much more familiar with these circumstances than we are, is taking steps to remedy the situation. [1155] The other piece of information which popped up on my Internet screen as I was browsing some of the local newspapers over the weekend was a story from the Times Colonist by Louise Dickson headlined: "B.C.

Po- lice Boss Quits Merger Talks." Official is fed up after $100,000 spent on studies that go round in circles. The story went on to say that B.C.'s top police official in the Solicitor General's ministry, namely Kevin Begg, says h e ' s " f e d u p w i t h t h e l a c k o f a c t i o n b y l o c a l p o l i c e forces and has washed his hands of their efforts to in- tegrate." "In a letter to five greater Victoria mayors dated February 28, Kevin Begg, director of police services, says his division will no longer participate in the steer- ing or w

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0311am 10
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0311am 10
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	30421084129cc4a653c443aa275c77430a230eac

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).