Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 9B (30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-9b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

TIME: 8:00 p.m. THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOBA Tuesday, March 1, 1977 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (Cont'

d) MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. ARNOLD BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all I would like to congr atulate you on your good health and your fulfilling your important position once more. I would also like to take this opportunity to welcome the Member from Souris-Killarney to this Legislature. Most Manitobans were looking forward to this, an election year, because they thought that the Speech from the Throne would contain some election goodies such as additional expenditures on highways, drainage, extra housing units for senior citizens, etc.

The speech, however, made very little mention of these areas of concern and with your permission, Mr. Speaker, I would like just like to dwell on some of the needs of my constituency for a minute. The constituency of Rhinel and is in desperate need for more expenditures on highways. A start was made last year on the construction of Highway No. 30 and forth is we are truly grateful. Hopefully the government will see fit to complete this program this year. Highway No. 14, however, has not received that kind of attention.

This highway carries a very heavy load of traffic and doesn'teven have shoulders from Winkler to Rosenfeld. The load limit on the highway has to be raised and we have to get away from the load restrictions in spring. Most of the special crops such as potatoes, sugar beets, etc., come from this area, black beans also. These special crops require truck transportation to get them to market and the situation as far as highways is concern ed, is fast becoming intolerable. In addition to farm commodities, industry also requires roads that can carry heavy loads and are free from restrictions in spring.

For instance, Monarch Industries of Winkler truck all the castings from their foundry from Winkler to Winnipeg. When industry can only haul half loads from two to three months every year in spring, this gets to be downright annoying, letalone theextracostand waste of gasoline. I hope the government will give more serious consideration to the road conditions in southern Manitoba than they have done so far. After all, southern Man itoba is the heart of the agriculture area in Manitoba and the government receives their most revenue from taxes from this area.

More consideration must be given to the people in southern Manitoba. The drainage program has dwindled to almost nil. The proximity of my area to the Red River means that all the waters gather in sprin g and thousands of dollars of damage is done in years of heavy spring run-off. One project, the Dead Horse Creek, has been almost completed for years and the time has come when this project must be completed. Last year only one mile of drainage construction was done on this project. That leaves approximately two miles and hopefully that can be done in 1977.

The whole project is not functional until such time as the last two miles have been completed. The Rempel drain and the South Buffalo received no attention whatsoever last year. Hopefully the government, in its wisdom, will see fit to proceed with these drains this year. Housing for senior citizens seems to have come to a halt in my area. The Town of Altona has a waiting list of more than 100 senior citizens who require this type of housing.

The Town of Altona and the Ebenezer Home have tried to get a meeting with the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation for months now and they can't even get a meeting with this corporation, let alone obtain the the necessary housing. lt is shameful the way the Minister in charge of the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation is treating this community. The least he could do is to sit down and have a meeting with the people. The Village of Rosenfeld has no senior citizens' housing units whatsoever.

Many of the senior citizens of that area want to retire in Rosenfeld where their friends are and again we can't even get a meeting with the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation. lt seems as if this area is being discriminated against because almost any community can at least get a meeting and some housing. 1 would like to take this opportunity to express my appreciation to my colleague, the MLA for Fort Garry, who has consented to take the responsi bility of social development upon himself.

The Department of Health and Social Development is a huge department for one man to cover and I am looking forward to working with him in this area. The Minister of Health and Social Development has the Civil Service to call upon but, between the two of us, we really have only the two of us to work in this area and I hope that we will be able to examine the department more effectively. I could take any speech that I made in the last three years and it would still be up-to-date as far as the Department of Health and Social Development is concern ed.

Many people, who should be in personal care homes, are still occupying acute care beds creating a shortage of acute care beds. We have witnessed very little activity in more personal care homes and it makes one wonder if this government is really serious about providing that type of facil ity for citizens who have been panelled for personal care homes. . The Minister of Health spent considerable time criticizing a speech I made recently to some SIX hundred nurses. And I would like to read portions of that speech into the record that members of the 251

Tuesday March 1, 1977 Assembly would know what the Minister was talking about. And I quote, "In the past ten years Canadians have seen many changes in health care programs. We have seen many universal and comprehensive health care programs which have created an insatiable demand for health care. These programs have resulted in escalating costs that governments now find impossible to control. The federal government is now attempting to opt out of their responsibility for the creation of a universal free health program by shifting the costs back on to the province.

The provinces now must cope with substantially less funds. Health care plan ners and administrators have the impossible task of controlling the insatiable demand for health care. We are now witnessing health rationing and curtailment in vital areas such as research and advanced medical treatment facilities.

As a result of the opting out by the federal government and as a result of the ever-increasing cost which cannot be met indefinitely by the taxpayer, it is my firm belief that we in Manitoba will have to restructure many departments within the Department of Health and Social Development to achieve the utmost in efficiency in the expenditure of health dollars so that we can maintain our high standard of health care in Manitoba. Indeed, if we all rededicate ourselves to the various tasks, that are responsibilities, we can witness an even higher standard of health care.

"The Progressive Conservative Party belieyes that the sick, the aged, the young, the handicapped, and generally all those people who cannot provide for their own needs must receive the best of health care available anywhere. , "You may say that this is very basic, and it is. But, with the ever-increasing costs of health care it seems to me that we must rededicate ourselves to these basics and not allow ourselves to pursue wild tangents. If there is need, we must meet that need. But great care must be taken that we do not create demand that is impossible to fulfil.

"What is needed in Manitoba is a health team that would deal with the priorities of health care. The main components of this health team to be comprised of doctors and nurses. The doctors wil l of course consist of family doctors, specialists, medical health officers, and the nurses consist of hospital nurses, home care nurses, publiC health nurses, and psychiatric nurses, etcetera. Laboratory and X-ray technicians should also be part of this team.

Resource professionals should consist of dentists, optometrists, social workers,. pharmacists, nutritionists, physiotherapists, occupational therapists and administrators. Sanitary engineers and sanitary inspectors could also be included. These are the people who are best qualified to deal with priorities because these, Mr. Speaker, are the people that deal with our problems in the health care delivery system on a day-to day basis. "The government's role would be to provide funding and then to determine how much funding could be provided. This to a large extent would determine policy.

Trust between government and health care providers is essential. Lack of trust can only lead to inefficiencies and lack of enthusiasm. "Need should always be an important factor in establishing priorities. At present there is need for more extended care, personal care and senior citizen homes so that long-term patients who do not really require acute care bed care could be discharged to whatever type of facility he or she requires. "There is need for a children's psychiatric hospital.

Long-term patients or children have to be taken to other provinces because we do not have government's authority to look after severely disturbed children. We desperately need a psychiatric hospital in Manitoba that can look after the children with mental illness; a place in which these children can receive both full time and day time treatment. At present psychiatric treatment that is needed at the youth centre, the home for boys, the home for girls, cannot be met because we do not have the personnel to look after the children that require this sort of treatment.

In many instances the severely disturbed child is sent to Selkirk or some other institution that are mainly adult treatment centres and are not geared for the treatment of children. "We desperately need more psychiatrists in Manitoba to carry out the program required.

Many disturbed children unless they receive psychiatric help wil l become delinquents and eventually end up in Headingly or the Youth Centre; If we can help someone to become self-sufficient who would otherwise be, at best, on our welfare roles for life, we could really contribute something to the quality of life of this person, let alone the tremendous saving in dollars to the taxpayer of Manitoba. The estimated cost per person on welfare for life can range between $250 and 300 thousand dollars per lifetime.

"Present plans for the treatment of children with mental illne ss are inadequate and I would hope that high priority would be placed on these children's needs. "Another need is in the practice of preventative medicine. We seem to be paying a lot of lip service to preventative medicine but when researchers request more money for research the response is all too often on the negative side. We must put more emphasis on preventative medicine on the younger person. "I am told that 69 percent of all welfare payments in Manitoba go to the single parent family. family; 50 percent to unwed mothers.

If this is the case then we must address ourselves to that problem. Our children -.. -.. ' require a greater understanding of health than is now being given to 252

Tuesday March 1, 1977 them within our school system. "Citizenship along with health should be taught in the classroom. We must get away from the concept that 'the world owes me a living' and rather teach the responsibi lities of society to the individual. Presently it is easy for a father, and in some cases the mother, to desert their families. All they have to do is go to another province and it becomes very difficult to collect maintenance for the family they deserfed. There must be more cooperation between all levels of government to track down these people so that maintenance can be obtained.

"The consumer's role in health care must be to look after his own body to the best of his ability. As already stated we must strive to achieve this through proper education beginning at an early age. Great care must also be taken by the consumer not to abuse the system. "The role of all health workers is of tremendous importance if we, in Manitoba, are to achieve a high and efficient level of health care. The objectives of the health care worker should always be that the requirements of the patient come first. The patient's comfort, care and happin ess must come first.

The health care worker must also practice efficiency, eliminate waste whenever possible, eliminate duplication of services when these occur. . The health care workers must continually update · themselves. They must be subject to change of method when new technology in health care demands it. This is particularly important in our top levels of health care workers, the doctors and nurses. This is why a good research team is of such tremendous importance to this province. Researchers will be the first to know when new technology is developed anywhere in the world.

Researchers, in turn, pass this information on to doctors and nurses and the patient receives the benefit. "Provision must be made that our top levels of health care workers receive the best in education available. Provision must be made that the health care workers are continuously updated as new technology develops. For any government to do less would be irresponsible. "Great care, however, must be taken that the various providers of health care do not isolate themselves but work together as a team. Doctors must consider and accept the I important role that the nurse plays.

Nurses, in return, must recognize the role of the doctor and the providers of health care. "With your permission I would like to return to the basics and that is our duty to the sick, the aged, the young, the handicapped and those people who are unable to look after themselves. If we keep in mind that we want to provide the best in health care available to all Manitobans, if we keep in mind that the care of the patient must be supreme, we shall accomplish what we have set out to achieve." We have heard many questions directed our way as to what is our policy. What is our policy in health care?

What ·Is our policy regarding day care? What is our policy regarding community clinics? Well, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister what is his policy? He can answer that later on. He has never really said what their policy was regarding day care. The Minister of Municip al Affairs, the other day, said it was just a very simple case of funding. I would like to suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that there is a lot more to it than just that. I believe that what is needed, as far as day care is concerned - a thorough study is needed. We should see what is happening in the United States.

We should see what is happening in countries such as Germany and Japan, and the way that they are treating children in day care. I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that we would have a lot to learn from those countries. What is the government's policy regarding community clinics? The Minister has never reported to the House on community clinics. We would like to know what the cost per patient care unit in community clinics is as compared to private clin ics. We are already providing hospitals for doctors to work in, in Manitoba, as the Minister has stated.

Then why does he want to build clinics when the doctors are perfectly willing to absorb the cost of clinics themselves. I think, Mr. Speaker, that we should take a look, maybe, at what has been happen ing in Saskatchewan as far as community clinics is concern ed. Saskatchewan had anywhere between twenty and thirty community clinics as of a couple of years ago and I understand that they have eliminated just about all of them. There were two of them left last year and I understand that one of them was about to be eliminated at that time. So, Mr.

Speaker, it makes one wonder why do we persist in carrying on with a program such as that. Why does the Minister not give us the detailed report on how community clinics are comparing with private clinics. We would welcome this. -(I nterjection)- Mr. Speaker, last year I posed exactly that type of question and the Minister at that -( In terjection)- that's right and the Minister at that time said that you did not have that type of information. I hope that we will have that type of information this year. Mr.

Speaker, we must wonder whether the various social service agencies operating in Manitoba know where their responsibil ities start or end. There is a special problem in the inner core area of the City of Winnipeg. Some 90 social service agencies are operating in the inner core area. When a new family moves in, the social service agencies corn pete one with another in order to look after the needs of that family. Now I realize, Mr. Speaker, that all of these social service agencies are not the responsibility of the provincial government, many of them are also governed by the City of Winni peg 253

but there' seems to be absolutely no liaison between the two. i would suggest, Mr. Minister, that you take that situation in hand and see what you can do with it, see if you can't get some rhyme or reason out ofthat situation because what that's going to do is leave more money to put meat on the table of those people that require it. t hen we have the problems of the child with a cleft palate or hairlip. Presently, only the medical work done is covered by the Manitoba Health Services Commission, orthodontists are not covered. Cost of dental W()rk by orthodontists can range between $1 ,000 to $3,000 per patient.

Why can this not be covered? Probably two to three hundred such cases in Manitoba exist at the present time. Last year, Mt. Minister, I was in your office and I received the assurance that work done by orthodontists on children with this type of problem would be covered by Medicare in about two to three months' time. MR. DESJARDINS: Who told you that? MR. BROWN: Tile dentist, fhe salaried dentist that you have on your staff, I forget what his name is. He said that you were working on that particular problem and he expected that in about two or three months' time that this would be covered.

This year I find that nothing further has been done Now, Mr. Speaker, this is a serious problem and the Minister has a tendency to treat this rather lightly. This is a serious problem because these problems have to be looked after at an early age and parents find it rather difficult to come up with that type of money required. We certainly welcome, Mr. Speaker, the government's change in attitude towards the medical profession. Last year the Minister was intent only upon hurling insults at doctors. Last year the mere mention of the word "doctor" was greeted with sneers, jeers ... MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. the Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: A point of privilege. The member made a statement that I hurled insults, I want him to repeat one, just state one insult that I hurled at the medical profession, just one. And if not, I ask him to withdraw that statement. liiiR. BROWN: Last year, the mere mention of the word "doctor " was greeted with sneers and jeers. MR. DESJARDINS: This is another example of a wild statement. Either he puts up or shut up and withdraw that statement, Mr. Speaker. Wild statement. Wild statement.

MFt BROWN: I don't have proof with me at the present time. MR. DESJARDINS: Well then wait till you get it when you make that statement. And you point at one statement that I made. MR. BROWN: I will, at the present time, Mr. Speaker, withdraw that statement but I will also come back and I will show the Minister proof of where he did make that type of statement. But Mr:Speaker, it is rather amusing to note that last year, the word "doctor " was greeted with sneers, jeers, and the curling of lips from members opposite.

This year, at the mention of the word "doctor " everybody breaks out iri smiles with loving tender care looks on their faces. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health says that this is because they were negotiating with the doctors last year. I fail to see the rationale of this. How does he expect to achieve favourable negotiations for Manitobans when he first antagonizes the people that he is negotiating with. Nevertheless, Mr. Speaker, the fight between the government and the doctors seems to be over at the present time and I am sure that all Manitobans are grateful. I would like to say, Mr.

Speaker, that I'm looking forward to the estimates and I' m sure at that time we will be able to have further debate on some of the problems in Health and Social Development. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Matthews. MR. WALL V JOHANNSON: Thank you Mr. Speaker. I would like to extend my congratulations to you, Sir, on again being in the position of presiding over this House as its Chairman and mentor in terms of the rules of the House.

I shall, I am sure, be admonished by you, Sir, during the year, but I will try to restrain myself and try to abide by the rules. 1 would like to compliment the mover and the seconder on the reply to the Speech from the Throne. 1 thought that both did very good jobs in speaking to the Speech from the Throne. I particularly enjoyed the presentation of my seat-mate, the Honourable Member for Emerson.

The only thing was that he spelled out so many things we have done for his constituency, I was beginning to wonder what was being done for my constituency. 1 have noticed and I have watched with interest the new Member for Souris-Killarney who has become the new leader of the Conservative Party -( In terjection}- the crown prince. Mr. Speaker, the honourable member has shown me a great deal of one thing, and that is arrogance. You know, Mr. Speaker, 1 understand that the Tory caucus has a new theme song.

Whenever their leader enters their caucus room, they all snap to attention and begin singing, "How Great Thou Art". The Health Minister suggests that it should be changed to "How Short Thou Art". The Member for Rhineland plays the organ while the members ate singing and the Member for Lakeside leads the chorus. But I understand, Mr. Speaker, that the Member for River Heights does not . join in the chorus. He somehow seems to be strangely absent a good deal from this House and 254

• Tuesday March 1, 1977 from the caucus of the Tory Party. Mr. Speaker, I am somewhat of a rookie in this House. I've only been here since 1969 but I'm beginning to feel like a rather permanent feature. When I first came into this House, the leader of the Tory party was one Waiter Weir. He has since departed with some knife wounds in his back. I understand he's now back in the province practicing the undertaking profession, a good profession for a man with a knife in his back. Following , Mr.

Speaker, the Honourable Waiter Weir, we had the Member for River Heights who, for a short while, served as the leader of the Tory Party, and Mr. Speaker, he's gone too. A MEMBER: With knife wounds . MR. JOHANNSON: With knife wounds, yes, he's gone. Now we have a new leader and he'll be going, and Mr. Speaker, I expect to be back in this House next year and we will probably see the Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney departing and we will have another fight within the Tory Party to find out who is the new crown prince. But Mr.

Speaker, whoever the new crown prince is, he had better wear his crown carefully because, what is the old saying -" Uneasy sits the head that wears the crown. " Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney, the Leader of the Opposition, really startled me when he gave his speech, because the first thing he did- Mr. Speaker, the Member for Swan River who wil l soon be departing thinks that the new member scares us. Well, I hate to disillusion him but I'm going to later on in this speech. Mr.

Speaker, the Honourable Leader of the Opposition did startle me because he proceeded to lay his blessing, to give his blessing to a number of programs brought forth by this government, and Mr. Speaker, those programs were not brought forth by this government with the blesssings of the Conservative Party at the time. You know, Mr. Speaker, when I heard the member, I wondered what in thedickens we had been doing the last seven years. We had, for example, in 1969 and in 1973, in two phases, we abolished Medicare premiums. I remember one hell of a fight in 1969.

I don't remember any great acceptance by the Tory Partyof the principle of public funding for medical insurance for the people of this province. What I recall, Mr. Speaker, is a fantastic attack by the Tory Party on the fact that we accompanied this measure by increasing the income tax rates and corporate tax rates. And we increased those tax rates to the highest in the country. Mr. Speaker, at the time I was proud of the factthatwe had the highest income tax rates in the country. I was proud of that fact because by doing this we reduced our Medicare premiums to the lowest in the country.

We abolished the most iniquitous tax in this province, we got rid of an expensive bureaucracy. We eliminated, as I recall, about several hundred jobs of people who had been involved in billing for Medicare. One hundred and ten. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. JOHANNSON: So Mr. Speaker, not only did we introduce a more equitable means of funding medical insurance in this province, but we reduced bureaucracy in the process. And Mr. Speaker, we did not do it without the Tory Party opposing us every step of the way. Every step of the way. Now Mr. Speaker, we have a death-bed repentance. And I wonder why.

I sort of have a hunch, Mr. Speaker, that they're thinking of an election that is coming up shortly. Oh yes, I am. l am looking forward to that election because I would like to see the last of a good number of members opposite and I am convinced that in this election campaign we wil l see the last of some of the members opposite. Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Leader of the Opposition also gave his blessing to Pharmacare. He gave his blessing to Senior Citizens Nursing Home coverage. He gave his blessing to Senior Citizens Housing, to Senior Citizens Home Care, to the Critical Home Repair Program. Now, Mr.

Speaker, he gave his blessing to all of these programs, all of which cost money, which is paid for from the involve public treasury, all of which the work of public servants in this province, and at the same time, Mr. Speaker, while he's giving his blessing to these programs, he's saying that he's going to cut taxes. He's going to cut taxes. He's going to increase funding for critical home repair, but he's going to cut taxes. Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney may think that the people of Manitoba are stupid, but the people of Manitoba are not.

I give the people of Manitoba credit for a great deal of intelligence and I do not think that the people of Manitoba will swallow that kind of claptrap. Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition also stated that he would not do away with Autopac. Now Mr. Speaker, if any program has been opposed, absolutely from the beginn ing, by the Tory Party, it is this program. I can recall, Mr.

Speaker, sitting through debates since 1970 which consi sted of wild, 1 would call them maniacal attacks on Autopac; I can recall all sorts of statements about the destruction of human liberty in this province, and now, these same members who thought Autopac was destroying human liberty in this province, are going to keep the program. They're going to keep the program. And why, Mr. Speaker? They don't like the program, but they realize that the people of Manitoba like the program and we have an election coming up this year.

The Tory Party doesn' twant to lose that election, so, with some reluctance, they embrace the program. You know, Mr. Speaker, I can recall reading "1984 " by George Orwell. And I can recall that in that particular society that Orwell depicts, the citizens of the society were periodically re-programmed, were fed one line at one time and then a totally opposite line at another time. lt struck me, Mr. Speaker, that the Tory Party is doing 255

Tuesday March 1, 1977 just this, For seven years they have fed the people of Manitoba one line ... Mr. Speaker, I sat in this House and listened to the drivel from the Tory Party for seven years. Now, they feed us an entirely different line .of drivel. This is "new think", yes, "new think" from the Tory Party. Wby? Because there's an election coming up. There's an election coming up, so we have a death-bed repentance by the Tory Party. You know, Mr. Speaker, I listened last year to the Member for Morris, the Honourable Member for Morris, attack Medicare.

He attacked the program in principle and stated -( Interjection)- Oh yes, I have the newspaper report here and I can easily quote from Hansard. He attacked in principle the medicare program, not merely the funding of Medicare from public funds, but he attacked the very principle of universal coverage- universal coverage for medical expenses. The Member for Morris would not deny it because I give the Member for Morris credit for at least some integrity. At least, he made the statement. The Member for Riel last year attacked Property Tax Credits and he stated, Mr.

Speaker, the Member for Riel stated that the first priority of a Tory government would be to eliminate Property Tax Credits and to strengthen the Foundation Program. Now, what's happen ed, in one year, what's happened? -(I nterjection)- I can also recall, Mr.

Speaker, I can also recall the former Member for Souris-Killarney, whom I had some affection for, the late Earl McKellar was a fighter and I knew that when he said things, he said them with sincerity- usually I disagreed with him, but I did not question the sincerity with which he spoke. -(In terjection)- Yes, my friend says he was not a phony like some members of the Tory party. Mr. Speaker, for seven years, for six or seven years, the Member for Souris-Killarney fought Autopac every step of the way and you know, Mr.

Speaker, I tried to visualize what he would think of the conversion of the present Meer for Souris-Killarney. I try to think and, Mr. Speaker, my thought was that the former Member for Souris-Killarney would not be very pleased, not very pleased at all. In fact, the new Leader of the Tory party has made most of the·members opposite look like idiots. A MEMBER: lt wasn't hard. MR. JOHANNSON: lt was not hard, but the new Leader of the Tory Party has made most members opposite look like idiots.

For seven years they have fought -(I nterjections)- For seven years they have fought, often viciously, and then the Membei for Souris-Killarney comes into the House and in the first statement he makes, he s�;�ys in effect to the Members of the House and to the people of Manitoba, "Don't listen to what these fellows have been saying tor the last seven years, they didn't know what they were talking about. Listen to me. " -(l nterjections)- Mr, Speaker, I am a little confused about one aspect of the Tory party. -( lnterjection) MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. JOHANNSON: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to know who make.s policy in the Tory party? I would like to know who makes policy in the Tory party- I know in my party who makes policy. Every year we have an annual convention which passes resolutions and those resolutions, while not binding on the government, are in general implemented. And if one traces over the history of the last seven years, one will find that in a very large percentage of cases, we have acted on in carrying out party policy. Now what's the case with the Tory party. I understand, Mr.

Speaker, that they were supposed to have a convention some time ago. -(I nterjection)- Mr. Speaker, according to the Tribune

article which consisted of an interview with the President of the Tory party, the current executive was elected March 9th, 1975. You know, Mr. Speaker, that is two years ago. The Manitoba Conservative Party President said Tuesday the Tory Executive may be holding onto office in violation of the Party's constitution. Executive party members hold office between general meetings which the constitution states should be held every year, or in special circumstances, not more than 18 months apart.

The current officers were elected March 9th, 1975 and under the constitution, their term of office ran out last September. -(l nterjections)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. JOHANNSON: Mr. Speaker, we know that the new policy of the Tory Party was not set by their convention, they haven't had one for two years. Mr. Speaker, the job of the Tory convention is not to make policy - their job is to aQt as a cheering

section for their Leader, to sing "How Great Thou Art". Mr. Speaker, I wonder if Tory policy is made by their Executive Committee? lt's presently an illegal organization - has been tor some six months or so. Could this new policy which was enunciated justthe other day have been established by an illegal organization, an organization that no longer has any mandate? Mr. Speaker, could the caucus have set a new policy for the Tory Party which made them all look like idiots? Or, Mr. Speaker, was the policy set by the Leader, or perhaps his speech writer?

Was the new policy set by the Leader who simply announced it in the Legislature? (Interjection)- Yes, he's getting paid. 1 guess, Mr. Speaker, this is Tory democracy, this is the way they run their party, this is the way they make their policy. -(I nterjection)- .. 256

... Tuesday March 1, 1977 A MEMBER: God help Manitoba. MR. JOHANNSON: Yes, I say so too, God help Manitoba if these people were ever to be elected. _ Mr. Speaker, I wou Id like to deal now with a rather more pleasant topic. I would-like to deal with the things that this government has done over the last eight years. lt makes for much more pleasant reading than any look atthe Tory Party. And I would like to touch on programs that have had an effect on the people who live in my constituency, and have had an effect which I think the people of my constituency really appreciate.

One of the things that we brought in last year was rent control. The Honourable Meer for Fort Rouge stated that none of our members were talking about rent control or were going to talk about it. I would like to talk about it. -(lnte rjection)- A MEMBER: Tell us about our income taxes. MR. JOHANNSON: And I'l l talk to you about that too.

The New Democratic government of this province brought in rent control last year and the Tories endorsed it with a great deal of reluctance, and I think they endorsed it also because they knew there was an election coming this year and they were afraid of what would happen if they voted against the bill. A MEMBER: The landlords said they were on their side. MR.

JOHANNSON: Yes, I have a quote here from the President of the Landlords Association wherein he says, and I'm quoting Lord Silverman, Sidney Silverman, the Chairman of the Manitoba Landlords Association who stated, this is the 12th of April, from the Tribune, "The only thing we have won at the present time is the Conservatives." The only thing we have won at the present time is the Conservatives- and I agree with them. I agree with them- the Tories are captives of the landlords. They are the advocates of the landlords and, Mr. Speaker, I am willing to fight them on that basis.

I am happy to fight them on that basis. We will stand behind the Rent Control Program. -(lnterjection s) The legislation as it stands now does not have an ending date in the legislation, and I for one ... - (Interjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. JOHANNSON: You know, Mr. Speaker, in our caucus and in our party, policy is not dictated by the Premier, by our party leader. We don't sit here like puppets and do what our leader tells us all the time. -(Interjection)- And I would like to tell the member right now that I intend to speak in caucus and to work for a continuation in some form of rent control.

I think the program has a beneficial effect on restraining rent increases and I think a very quick ending of it would be harmful, because it would have the effect of producing a very quick increase in rents. I think that is a bad prospect which I would like to avoid, so I intend to work in caucus to try to bring about a continuation of the program longer than the end of this year. I would likato also talk, Mr. Speaker, about the Property Tax Credit program which the Member for Riel wanted to end last year. Mr.

Speaker, the Property Tax Credit Program, I think, has had a very beneficial effect for the people of my constituency. I know that for people with houses like mine, people who would pay property taxes somewhat similar to mine, the net effect of the Property Tax Credit Program on these people was to keep their property taxes at about the level that they were in 1972 or in some cases lower. For a constituency like mine where people own modest housing, the program had a great beneficial effect. The program had a beneficial effect for people like the senior citizens who live in Lions Manor in my constituency.

The honourable members have been mentioning a number of times a letter which was sent to the senior citizens of Lions Manor. lt was a very good letter; I am glad they mentioned it. In the letter, I indicated that not only do we provide a property tax credit to senior citizens and to working people in this province, but the Property Tax Credit office offers a free service in filling out income tax forms for senior citizens. What happened in Lions Manor, for example, was that virtually every person in that place had his or her taxes filled out by these people. That is a service to the people in my constituency.

That is a service provided by this government. That is a service provided by civil servants who work for this government. You people would eliminate those kinds of services to senior citizens. According to the Member for Riel, you would eliminate those property tax credits and the cost of living tax credits. Now put it on the line - either make your policy clear or keep quiet. The members have also tried to make something of the fact that I invited people in Lions Manor to become members of the New Democratic Party. Mr.

Speaker, I have some respectfor senior citizens. 1 think that they should participate in the political process. ! think that they are intelligent people; they are not senile as the Tory members seem to think they are, they are intelligent people who are capable of making rational choices. One of the choices that they may choose to make - (Interjection)- ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. JOHANNSON: ... is to join our party. That would be an extremely rational choice and a very wise one. 1 would like to assure you, Mr. Speaker, that a good many of them have made that wise choice.

The Honourable Member for Swan River is busy advocating a return to the stocks and the hangman and bread and water, he is an example of the new Toryism. He will return us to the little red 257

Tuesday March 1, 1977 school house, to the lash, to the whip, to the stocks, he will return us back to the sixteenth century. Now, if the people of Manitoba wish to return to the sixteenth century, they will follow the Honourable Member for Swan River. But I do not happen to think, Mr. Speaker, that the people of Manitoba are stupid. I think that they are intelligent. Mr.

Speaker, our government has also brought in the Critical Home Repair Program which has now been endorsed by the Tories - an excellent program, but it takes civil servants to run it and it takes money, both of which the honourable members opposite don't appreciate. They don't want money spent by the Public Treasury, they don't want civil servants. We have brought in, Mr. Speaker, a modern Landlord and Tenant Act that frees tenants from the tender mercies of bailiffs.

If any members in this House have lived in apartments, and I lived in apartments for many years, they will have some conception of how utterly dependent and how utterly without rights tenants used to be. Tenants formerly didn't have the right to vote on municipal money by-laws. We gave them the right to vote on municipal money by-laws. Tenants formerly were not eligible for the Property Tax Credit. We brought in the Property Tax Credit. I can recal l that the Roblin government brought in a tax credit of sorts but no tenants got that tax credit.

We have given the tenants some security of tenure and we have given them a position of near equality to landlords which is a total difference in situation from what prevailed prior to 1969. We've carried out a very extensive housing program. Mr. Speaker, I don't have to make the argument on the virtues of our housing program; the Honourable Leader of the Opposition made it. He pointed out that under the Tories the administrative cost of MHRC was $44,000, under $44,000 in 1969, and that the administrative costs had increased to almost $1.5 million in 1975.

I am pretty familiar with MHRC and I can recall in 1969 MHRC consisted of three people, three people who were not doing a blessed thing. They weren't building any housing. We have a staff now of -I don't know what it is - perhaps 100, which has built over 10,000 housing units in this province. Over 10,000' A couple of years ago I visited Ontario Housing Corporation and I have a good deal of respect for Ontario Housing Corporation in spite of criticisms that are made of it, but Ontario Housing at that time had a public relations department that was larger than the entire staff of MHRC.

They were not building substantially more housing, as I recall they might have been building double the volume that MHRC was building at that time, so I think we've got good value and good performance out of MHRC. Mr. Speaker, I want to talk also about what is going to be done this session by this government. I think that this session is going to be a session of what I would call pretty solid, steady progress. lt is not spectacular. The progress is not as rapid as I would like to see. But I still think that it is a reasonably solid, steady progress.

We are going to amend The City of Winnipeg Act and that legislation will be brought in shortly. That is a very important piece of legislation and it is also a piece of legislation on which I will be happy to fight the election with members opposite. I am waiting for their reaction to the legislation. We are proceeding with an accident and sickn ess insurance program. Mr. Speaker, we will be dealing with the public provision of coverage for people who lose income without any fault of their own, through accident or sickness.

The program will be phased in as the budget of the province allows and I, for one, will be in support of this program. We are proceeding with again, a good solid housing program and a fourth major thrust will be in the area of family law. We will be changi ng legislation with regard to family law to bring about more equity in family law. Mr. Speaker, if this government were only to administer its present programs, that is, if it were not interested in making further reforms, I would not be interested in being a member of it.

I have no intention of sitting here and administering the present programs which we have. l want to be part of a government that will bring about further reforms in this province, and I think there are areas where further progress obviously can be made. The Member for Fort Rouge mentioned the problem of the inner city, the problem of revitalization of the inner city.

I happen to represent an inner city constituency, a constituency which has had a problem over years with decaying housing. the member so correctly pointed out, much of the housing was built early in this century and it has reached the point where renovation is necessary on an ongoing basis or there are going to be large-scale demolitions and that housing wil l have to be replaced. That is a problem that has to be dealt with. We are making strides in dealing with it to some extent, not as much as I would like to see. I am talking about the Critical Home Repair Program.

The Critical Home Repair Program and the Pensioner Home Repair Program provided renovation for over 25,000 housing units in this province. That is some progress, that is not perfection but that is progress. But more needs to be done and I wil l be pressing in our caucus for further moves in this area. I am concerned also with demolitions in the inner city. The honourable member mentioned the fact that there are something in the nature of 1500 or 1800 demolitions that have taken place in the last year in the inner city.

That concerns me because the units that are being demolished are units that have housed lower-income people, and even if we build 2,000 units a year, we are not building all of those in the city, we are building them all around the province. I think we have to step up the building 258

Tuesday March 1, 1977 program. We have to produce more housing a variety of means and I wil l be working for that. Mr. Speaker, I want to make a few comments before I close about the Mines Minister. The Mines Minister gave a beautiful speech the other day, but I would find one fault with it. He was far, far too kind to the Leader of the Opposition. I really think that the Minister of Mines is becoming soft. He is becoming mellow. -(l nterjections)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. JOHANNSON: Mr. Speaker, he is becoming the Conservative of our caucus. A MEMBER: He always was. MR. JOHANNSON: Mr.

Speaker, the Meer tor Swan River said that we were scared by their big new gun; the Leader of the Opposition. But what the Leader of the Opposition showed me was an 88 millimetre mouth and a 9 millimetre mind. He showed me first-rate arrogance and showed me a second-rate mind. That sort of thing is not going to scare me. lt is not going to scare the members of this government. Mr. Speaker, the statements of the Member tor Souris-Killarney were laughable in many respects. He made a statement and I am going to quote him very quickly.

He made a statement about public investment being "the sure guidepost to further encroach ment of socialism." And here, Mr. Speaker, it is fortunate that we have public records because I went back to the budget speech of Gurney Evans of 1969, and what did I find, Mr. Speaker? Public investment under the former Tory government increased from 45 percent of the total investment in the province in 1959 to 52 percent in 1968. The man must have been a Communist! He was the first lieutenant, I gather, to Premier Duff Roblin; the man must have been a raving Communist! lt is also interesting, Mr.

Speaker, that William Morton, who is a Conservative whom I respect, in his History of Manitoba stated, and this is about the Roblin government: "The key to its program was the resolve to borrow against future development to meet present needs. " Here was its real clash with the policy of the administration it had displaced. "The core of Campbell's policy ... "This is Doug Campbell whom the members opposite worship at the shrine of. " ... was to expand expenditure as revenues allowed, but to abstain rigidly from all borrowing, provincial and municipal.

Its purpose was to free the revenues from the servicing of debt. This policy Roblin swept aside as defeatist in spirit and wrong in practice. The proper policy was to borrow wisely and spend wisely in the confidence that such expenditures were in fact investments in developments which would yield the revenues to service and retire debts." This was the thinking of the aggressive businessman and of the economist who believed in social investment. (Interjection)- Socialism, yes. This was the policy of Duff Roblin, that raving socialist and, Mr.

Speaker, I give him credit for that policy. lt was a wise policy and it is a policy that we have built upon and expanded upon. -(l nterjections)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please: MR. JOHANNSON: Mr. Speaker, this is the kind of policy that our government will continue. The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney would have us go back to the good old days when the people in the lower echelons used to say, "God bless the squire and his relations and keep us in our proper stations. " We don't happen to subscribe to that kind of philosophy.

We happen to believe in a civilized society, not one in which people are whipped and branded and put in the stocks. We believe in a civilised society in which people can live in dignity. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise at this time to take

part in the debate after listening to the Member for St. Matthews but first I think it is only fair that I should pay tribute to you in the role that you have in this House, and I know that it is going to be a difficult one. We heard from our House Leader today that he nearly got thrown out of caucus for trying to admonish the members of his party but, Sir, let me assure you that I will pay heed to the admonitions of the Chair during this session and I will do my utmost to abide by your decisions. .

But, Sir, at the same time I would like to also pay tribute to the Mover for the Speech, the Member for Logan, and I know that the opportunity that was his in moving the Speech was a very privileged one and I would also suggest, a very rare occasion for him to speak in this Legislature because we all know the role that he occupies as Deputy Speaker where he is prohibited, in the most part, from speaking and the role that he has played as Chairman of the various Committees of the Legislature where he has attempted to be impartial and in that respect, has in many cases been prohibited from speaking .

So 1 think it was only fitting that he be given the opportunity to address the Legislature and the occasion that was provided in Moving the Reply to the Speech from the Throne was most appropriate on his part. So, I, as a member of the opposition, recognize the tact that in many cases the Member for Logan has, by the very nature of his position, been prohibited from speaking and so I appreciated, probably more than most members of the Legislature the contribution that he made in the Speech at this particular time.

The Seconder of the Speech, I also appreciate his contribution because I know that the contributions he has made to debate in this Chamber have been few and tar between. So, in that 259

Tuesday March 1, 1977 respect, I think it was only fitting that he be given an opportunity, maybe not only an opportunity but almost deemed a necessity that he make some contribution to debate in this Chamber. Sir, having said that, I think want to address myself for a few minutes to the contributions that were made by the Meer for St.

Matthews, a member that I have known in this Chamber, Sir, for some eight years and I have to say also, Sir, that I have known other members of his family fora longer period of time. lt is my privilege, Sir, to represent in this House, am emberof thatfamily -a cousin ofthe Meer for St. Matthews who, unli ke the Member for St. Matthews, is a good, sincere businessman who is contributing to the welfare of his constituency in a manner that is indeed a credit to all that know him. But, Sir, I listened to the speech, and I'm sorry the Member for St.

Matthews is not in the Chamber at the present time- he has probably made his contribution and probably wants a press conference at this time, we understand those things. I think it's rather important that we should recognize the fact that this was one member, one member on the government side of the House who was not content to regale the members of this side with the past performances and review history and re-thrash old straw, but he was one member of the government who wanted to spell out new areas for government to be involved in, and I commend him in that respect.

Unli ke the Minister of Mines who made no significant contribution towards the future of the Province of Manitoba, who was content to deal with the past, the Member for St. Matthews was concerned with the future of this province, and I think it is important that we do recognize that there is at least one, and I hope there are more on the other side, members of government who are concerned about the future. So, in that respect, I give the Member for St. Matthews due credit. The unfortunate part, Mr.

Speaker, is that I think the government, and I have to in this case fault the First Minister, has failed to recognize the progressive element that exists within his caucus. I think the Member for St. Matthews has worked diligently and in all sincerity has tried to make a contribution towards the betterment of this province. lt is unfortunate that the First Min ister has failed to recognize that ability and that capability. Unlike the Minister for Agriculture, I think the Member for St. Matthews has tried to honestly pinpoint the problems that exist in the Province of Manitoba.

He has tried to identify many of the root causes and has tried to put forward some proposals that are logical, sensible and understandable by the people of the Province of Manitoba, And I say that, Mr. Speaker, as a member of the agricultural community who has listened to the harangues, the cajolements, and the veiled threats that have existed in the pronunciations that have come from the Minister of Agriculture.

Sir, I have to admit that I was somewhat saddened to sit in the Chamber this afternoon and hear the Minister of Agriculture refer to the "big-lie approach" which he unfortunately blamed on members of the opposition when, if he had been honest with the people of Man itoba, he would have had to assume himself.

All one has to do is look at the picture that has evolved in the proposed vote that the Minister of Agriculture has foisted on the farming population of Manitoba, and look at the comedy of errors that has existed since he first anno unced that there was going to be a vote on the question of whether or not there should be a Beef Marketing Board in the Province of Manitoba. I think the first .mistake that the Minister of Agriculture made was in assuming that any farmer in the Province of M,anitoba wanted a Beef Marketing Board.

Certain ly there was no presentation made to him by any oq!Janized group in the Province of Manitoba requesting a Beef Marketing Board. He had a committee set up and who are the members of that committee, Mr. Speaker? I can tell you that on the committee that he set up to investigate the beef industry in the Provinc e of Manitoba were a Professor Wood and a Mr. Rudi Usick and one other member from the population of the Province of Manitoba. Now, Mr. Wood and Mr. Usick had also previously been appointed in the Province of Manitoba to the Manitoba Marketing Board. Well that's all right.

He has a marketing board and two of the members of that are going to be conducting an inquiry into the beef industry in the Province of Manitoba. Now the Minister of Agriculture, in his wisdom, set out the terms of reference and I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that in setting out the terms of reference you can effectively almost preclude the type of answer that you want from any investigation.

However, the Minister of Agriculture was foiled in this particular respect because the commission that investigated the beef marketing in the Province of Manitoba didn't bring in the result that he requested in his terms of reference. So he said, in all sincerity, "What am I going to do aboutthis thing? They didn't bring in a resultthat I wanted." So he then set up a committee to study the report that he had commissioned. And on that committee, who did he appoint? Mr. Rudi Usick, Professor Wood and several others who are going to study the report that didn't bring in a result that he wanted.

And what was that report of the special committee that he had set up? Mr. Speaker, that committee that he had set up again did not bring in a reportthat was completely satisfactory to the Minister of Agriculture. And so today he stood up in the House and he had the audacity to tell us that ten of the twelve members of that committee endorsed a position that supported the Beef Marketing Board. Mr. Speaker, I suggest to you, who was it that appointed the members to that board? lt was the Minister of Agriculture. And he had already been dissatisfied with the result of the commission that he had set up.

Would the Minister dare appoint anybody to that Board that would not bring in a report 260

Tuesday March 1, 1977 that was favorable to his position? I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that anybody that believed otherwise would be very foolish. But even so, he found out that there were still two members that didn't agree with him. There were still two members that would not buy his policy. So what does he do then? Mr. Speaker, we all know what has happened since that time. The Minister knew that his program was doomed to failure, so he says, "I have to confuse the issue. I will delay the vote. I will delay the vote." He had already announced it to be on the first of February but he delayed it one month.

And how did he delay it? He caught- 1 shouldn 't say this, Mr. Speaker, I won't say it. I will say instead that suddenly there appeared on the horizon, just out of the clear blue, a brand new beef organization that never existed in this province before. And it appeared at the same time as the Minister announced there would be a delay.

And it also appeared at the same time that the Chairman of the Manitoba Marketing Board announced his resignation as Chairman of that Marketing Board and said that he was going to form a new organization to fight for the democratic princip les that this Minister of Agriculture espoused. And that, I think Mr. Speaker, has to be one of the noblest fallacies that ever existed in the Province of Manitoba. However, Mr.

Speaker, be that as it may, the Minister has campaigned throughout the Province of Manitoba, although he said he was going to be neutral, and he has said thatthe members of this side of the House have been the proponents of the big lie, and I have to say to you Mr. Speaker, that the Honourable Minister of Agriculture, LLB, is the propon ent, not of the big lie, but of numerous little lies. And at this time, Mr.

Speaker, I suggest that when any member of the Cabinet, any member of this Treasury Bench that stands up and makes the statements that this Minister of Agriculture has done, I ask you, sir, is he doing credit to the agricultural community of the Province of Manitoba? Is he doing credit to the farmers of the Province of Manitoba, to the meat packing industry of the Province of Manitoba, and to all those that are associated with it?

There are many farmers in this province, Sir, that have, over the years, found numerous means of marketing their beef but now we find that the Minister of Agriculture says, "No, the freedom of choice is going to disappear, you're only going to have one choice, and that is going to be a beef marketing board. And we will ask you the question whether or not you want a beef marketing board. " But at the same time, Mr.

Speaker, we now find today in the Province of Manitoba, that any farmer who has expressed any interest in associating himself with any programs of assistance from the Province of Manitoba, is now being telephoned and asked point-blank over the telephone whether or not he is going to support the proposals of the Minister of Agriculture. And Mr. Speaker, I say that's not democracy, that's blackmail . And I say, sir; that the people of Manitoba cannot afford to live in an atmosphere of fear any longer. MR. SPEAKER: Subject to our rules now, I must put the main question. MOTION presented and carried. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister for Urban Affairs that the Address be engrossed e and presented to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor by such members of the House as are of the Executive Council and the mover and seconder of the Address. MOTION presented and carried. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY - FINANCE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I have a message from his His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor. MR.

SPEAKER: The Lieutenant-Governor transmits to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba Estimates of sums required for the services of the province for the fiscal year ending the 31st of March, 1978 and recommends these Estimates to the Legislative Assembly. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I wonder while the Estimates are being distributed, if I might have leave to make a very brief statement. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed? Agreed. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, members will note that the main Estimates total for the 1977-78 fiscal year is approximately $1,153.8 million.

This is about $22.7 million or two percent lower than last year's $1,17 6.5 m i I lion of the Main and Supplementary Estimates approved by this House in 1976-77. Now for the benefit of members, I would like to explain that, as the Finance Minister noticed in his Budget Address last year and the year prior as well, it has been our government's practice in the past to include our tax credit programs as expenditure items, but that a different practice has be�n followed for a number of years in other jurisdictions with similar tax credit programs.

So starting w1th the 1977-78 fiscal years, we have instituted the practice that is followed, for example, in Ontario and are including the tax credits in the Revenue Estimates, which of course are presented and will be presented at the time that the Budget Address is delivered .. To assure comparability so there is no misunderstanding between next year's expenditures, the ones that are being distributed now, and the current year's, we have made a similar adjustment in the 261

Tuesday March 1, 1977 Estimates' totals for the 1976-77 fiscal year. The figures on the left hand side and left hand column have been adjusted to reflectthis reduction. On this basis, the year-over-year growth rate for 1977-78 is al most exactly 7.75 percent. The percentage increase reflects what is essentially a hold-the-line expenditure for the coming year. Members will note that in the Estimates Book I have had an additional sheet included to show how the Estimates would have appeared if the tax credits were shown as expenditures as in past years. On that basis the percentage increase is around 7.5 percent.

Returning to the Main Estimates, Mr. Speaker, members will note that a number of departments' expenditures have increased for 1977-78; others show only a nominal increase. Of course full details on the composition of the Estimates will be made available in the course of review by Committee of Supply in the coming weeks. Before concluding, Mr. Speaker, I want to express my personal appreciation and that of the staff on the central agencies for the co-operation all departments extended during the preparation of these Estimates.

As members on both sides of the House are aware, annua l Estimates review is a long and difficult process at any time but the task is made all the more difficultthis year by the uncertainty which surrounded it and to some extent still surrounds the effect on our budgetary position of the revised financial arrangements with the federal government. The new federal-provincial arrange- >1 ments have not yet been final ised but I expect most of the details will have been worked out by the time the Budget is presented. At that time of course I will make a full report to the House. Mr.

Speaker, I see the Estimates have been distributed and so I would move, seconded by the Minister of Mines, that the Message together with the Estimates accompanying same be referred to the Committee of Supply. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Finance. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I would move, seconded by the Minister of Labour, thatthis House will at its next sitting resolve itself into committee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if I co uld direct a short question to the Minister before this question is put. I wondered, in his statement of the reduction of last year's Estimates by an amount, whether the amount of the reduction also took into account the Special Warrants for the year. MR. MILLER: Are you talking the tax credits, that reduction? Would you clarify it then? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I gather the Minister in his very open ing remarks made reference to the expenditures for the current year being a net figure and included some reductions in expenditure during the year.

Did they also include the Special Warrants in other areas? Was it the net figure of the general reduction in spending as well as the Special Warrants? MR. MILLER: No, Mr. Speaker. What we have before us is the comparative figures of the Main and Supplementary Estimates of last year and on the right hand column, the Main Estimates this year. The only reduction or balancing was the elimination of tax credits on both columns. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, then for comparative purposes, from last year's Estimates, the expenditure is using the $1 .158 billion, and not 1. 176. MR.

MILLER: I think you have a stuffer in your booklet which shows the printed Estimates as 1.070 - if the tax credits had been left in, it would be 1. 176 - 490,100. MR. SPEAKER: Is the last Motion agreed to? MR. CRAIK: Just in the haste of looking this over then, is the Min ister saying thatthestuffer that is added in here, the figures shown for the current year is the last year's Estimates, 1. 176 billion, less the tax credits? MR. MILLER: No, Mr. Speaker, the 1. 16 billion would include the tax credits. lt is 1.070, which is exclusive of the tax credits. The member mentioned Special Warrants.

The Special Warrants are not included here; the Special Warrants are still within the present fiscal year, the current year. What we have before us is the voted Main and Supplementary Estimates of last session. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance . MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Health and Social Development, that this House will at its next sitting resolve itself into committee to consider of the ways and means for raising of a supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the House Leader.

MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I would move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Health and Social Development, that this House do now adjourn. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The House is consequently adjourned and stands adjourned until2:30 tomorrow afternoon. 262

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-9b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 4th hansardpdf 9b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	3044eed0eb18b914da11e2aabd2a566c64de5cbf

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