Manitoba Hansard — 12 April 1972 (Sitting 37, 29th Legislature, 4th Session)

29-4-37

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Peter Fox Vol. XIX No. 37 2:30p.m., Wednesday, April 12th, 1972. Fourth Session, 29th Legislature. Printed by R. 8. Evans- Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

Electoral Division Name Political Address Affiliation ARTHUR J. Douglas Watt P.C. Reston, Manitoba ASSINIBOIA Steve Patrick Lib. 10 Red Robin Place, Winnipeg 12 BIRTLE-RUSSELL Harry E. Graham P.C. Binscarth, Manitoba BRANDON EAST Hon. Leonard S. Evans N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 BRANDON WEST Edward McGill P.C. 2228 Princess Ave., Brandon, Man. BURROWS Hon. Ben Hanuschak N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 CHARLESWOOD Arthur Moug P.C. 29 Willow Ridge Rd., Winnipeg 20 CHURCHILL Gordon Wilbert Beard lnd. 148 Riverside Drive, Thompson, Man.

CRESCENTWOOD Cy Gonick N.D.P. 1 - 174 Nassau Street, Winnipeg 13 DAUPHIN Hon. Peter Burtniak N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 ELMWOOD Hon. RusseiiJ. Doern N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 EMERSON Gabriel Girard P.C. 25 Lomond Blvd., St. Boniface 6 FUN FLON Thomas Barrow N.D.P. Cranberry Portage, Manitoba FORT GARRY L R. (Bud) Sherman P.C. 86 Niagara St., Winnipeg 9 FORT ROUGE Mrs. lnez Trueman P.C. 179 Oxford St., Winnipeg 9 GIMLI John C. Gottfried N.D.P. 44- 3rd Ave., Gimli Man. GLADSTONE James Robert Ferguson P.C. Gladstone, Manitoba INKSTER Hon. Sidney Green, Q.C. N.D.P.

Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 KILDONAN Hon. Peter Fox N.D.P. 244 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 LAC DU BONNET Hon. Sam Uskiw N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 LAKESIDE Harry J. Enns P.C. Woodlands, Manitoba LA VERENDRYE Leonard A. Barkman Lib. Box 130, Steinbach, Man. LOGAN William Jenkins N.D.P. 1294 Erin St., Winnipeg 3 MINNEDOSA David Blake P.C. Minnedosa, Manitoba MORRIS Warner H. Jorgenson P.C. Box 185, Morris, Man. OSBORNE lan Turnbull N.D.P. 284 Wildwood Park, Winnipeg 19 PEMBINA George Henderson P.C.

Manitou, Manitoba POINT DOUGLAS Donald Malinowski N.D.P. 361 Burrows Ave., Winnipeg 4 PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE Gordon E. Johnston Lib. Room 248, Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 RADISSON Harry Shafransky N.D.P. 4 Maplehurst Rd., St. Boniface 6 RHINELAND Jacob M. F roese Soc. Cr. Box 40, Winkler, Manitoba RI EL Donald W. Craik P.C. 2 River Lane, Winnipeg 8 RIVER HEIGHTS Sidney Spivak, Q.C. P.C. 250 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 ROBLIN J. Wally McKenzie P.C. lnglis, Manitoba ROCK LAKE Henry J. Einarson P.C. Glenboro, Manitoba ROSSMERE Hon. Ed. Schreyer N.D.P.

Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 RUPERTSLAND Jean Allard N.D.P. 602 - 245 Provencher Ave., St.Boniface 6 ST. BONIFACE Hon. Laurent L.Oesjardins N.D.P. 357 Des Meurons St., St. Boniface 6 ST. GEORGE William Uruski N.D.P. Box 580, Arborg, Manitoba ST.JAMES Hon. A.H. Mackling, Q.C. N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 ST.JOHNS Hon. Saul Cherniack, Q.C. N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 ST. MATTHEWS Wally Johannson N.D.P. 23- 500 Burnell St., Winnipeg 10 ST. VITAL D. J. Walding N.D.P. 31 Lochinvar Ave., St. Boniface 6 STE. ROSE A.R. (Pete) Adam N.D.P. Ste. Rose du Lac, Manitoba SELKIRK Hon. Howard Pawley N.D.P.

Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 SEVEN OAKS Hon. Saul A. Miller N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 SOURIS-KILLARNEY Earl McKellar P.C. Nesbitt, Manitoba SPRINGFIELD Hon. Rene E. Toupin N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 STURGEON CREEK Frank Johnston P.C. 310 Overdale St., Winnipeg 12 SWAN RIVER James H. Bilton P.C. Swan River, Manitoba THE PAS Ron McBryde N.D.P. 228 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 THOMPSON Joseph P. Borowski N.D.P. La Salle, Manitoba TRANSCONA Hon. Russell Paulley N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 VIR DEN Morris McGregor P.C. Kenton, Manitoba WELLINGTON Philip M.

Petursson N.D.P. 681 Banning St., Winnipeg 10 WINNIPEG CENTRE J. R. (Bud) Boyce N:o.P. 777 Winnipeg Ave., Winnipeg 3 WOLSELEY

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Wednesday, April 12, 1972 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 899 MR , SPEAKER: Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery, In the Speaker's Gallery we have Miss Sue Hodge, Queen of the Cuurchill Aurora Festival. Miss Hodge is the guest of the Honourable Member for the Consti tuency of Churchill, There was a mix-up in where she was placed; I'll have to talk to my sessional staff.

We also have 11 guests of the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce, These guests are representing the winners of a contest sponsored by the Morden Fine Foods Limited, a subsidiary of the Manitoba Development Corporation, There are also 65 students Grade 11 standing of the Springfield Collegiate, These stu dents are under the direction of Mr. Smythe, Mesdames Beckta and Mazur. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Springfield, the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. On behalf of all the Honourable Members I welcome you all here today.

Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees, The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. TABLING OF REPORTS MR . J. R. (Bud) BOYCE (Winnipeg Centre): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Report of the Special Committee of the Legislature on Professional Associations. In doing so I would just like to ask a correction be made in the copies that are being presented to members, On Page 5 there was an omission of a phrase, and the

section should read: The protection of civil rights of individuals within the groups against the denial of those rights, I'm sorry it was just an omission and it wasn't proof read before it was put on my desk. It's corrected in the orig inal copy here, Mr. Speaker. MR , CLERK: Your Special Committee on Professional Associations beg leave to present the following as their report: Your Special Committee of the Legislature, composed of Honourable Messrs. Mackling, McBryde, Toupin; Messrs. Bilton, Boyce, Craik, Johannson, Johnston (Portage la Prairie), Shafransky, Spivak; Mrs. Trueman, Mr.

Turnbull, was reconstituted on Saturday, July 10, 1971 at the Third Session of the 29th Legislature to: 1) investigate the role of professionals, professionalization and self-governing bodies and make recommendations pertaining thereto, 2) Consider matters referred to the committee by the House, to wi.t, The Architect Act - Bill #21 The Optometry Act - Bill #30 and to report to the House at the next session of the Legislature, Your committee was authorized to hold such public hearings and to hire persons neces sary to carry out the duties assigned to the committee.

Subsequent to July 10, 1971, the Legislature approved a change in the personnel of the committee by striking off the name of Mr. J ohannson and substituting therefor the name of Mr. Walding, Meetings were held: Organizational Meetings: Friday, September 24, 1971; Monday, November 1, 1971; Thursday, December 2, 1971, Dialogues with Professional Associations: Monday, December 13, 1971; Tuesday, December 14, 1971; Wednesday, December 15, 1971; Thursday, December 16, 1971; Friday, December 17, 1971.

Public Meetings: Monday, February 14, 1972; Tuesday, February 15, 1972, Deliberation on Report to the Legislature: Monday, March 6, 1972, Your committee, to facilitate consideration in the House, presents its recommendations in two_Parts:

Part I- Role of Professionals, Professionalization, and Self-Governing Bodies.

Part 11 - Matters Referred to the Committee,

900 April 12, 1972. (MR. CLERK cont'

d) A comprehensive examination of the role of professionals in the Province of Manitoba necessitates an understanding of many compl� inter-relationships.

There are a number of concepts which influence the inter-relationships of professionals, and professionals and society such as natural rights and endowed rights (privileges); the balance of power between the Legis lation, the Executive and the Judiciary; the autonomy of our Universities; and the struggle to develop flexible systems which allow for change. - Since the first special committee of the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba was established in 1966, investigations have been taking place in many jurisdictions. The approaches employed in these investigations have varied from: 1.

Quebec- delivery of health services 2. Ontario - civil rights 3. Government of Canada- restraint of competition PROVINCE OF QUEBEC In the Province of Quebec the approach was part of "The Professions and Society" in the broader investigation of the Commission of Enquiry on Health and Social Welfare (1970). This investigation has resulted in a Professional Code (Bill 250) being presented to the National Assembly in this their current session. Because of the difference in the civilcodEB of Quebec and in Mauitoba, a direct comparison is difficult.

Nevertheless, the Professional Code now being debated does serve as a model approach to legislation balancing the complex inter-relationships. PROVINC E OF ONTARIO In the Province of Ontario, the approach used was as a part of Licensing, Self-Governing Bodies, Delegation of Legislative Power in the broader investigation of the Royal Commission Enquiry into Civil Rights (1968). One of the recommendations of the Commission was that a model Bill applicable to Professional Associations be considered, but to date this model bill has not been presented to the Legislature in the Province of Ontario.

Nevertheless, your Committee has been informed that Professional Associations are being asked to comply with the recommendations of the "MaCRuer Report" outlined in Report #1, Volume 3, Page 1209. Since there is much in common in the Common Law of Ontario and Manitoba, Your Committee spent considerable time discussing the work of this Royal Commission. GOVERNMENT OF CANADA The Economic Council of Canada investigating forces affecting competition studied the role of professionals in perhaps restricting competition.

OTHER INVESTIGATIONS Further to the three foregoing approaches to the problems pertaining to Professional Associations, there have been other investigations which are beyond the terms of reference of your Committee. For example, the work done by the Task Force on Labour Relations (Wood's Report 1968). Further, the Wright Commission on Post-S econdary Education in Ontario raises the question of professional training fulfilling changing public needs.

The approach in the investigations cited have in common the question of protection of individuals and the protection of the "public interest" so that systems designed be such as to reflect the following: 1) To continually assess the protection of the public interest by the operations of any group. 2) The protection of the individual within the group from liability when performing within accepted professional ethical standard. 3) The protection of the civil rights of indi\Fiduals within the gr0up against the denial; 4) The protection of the civil rights of individuals outside the group against denial of those rights by the .group or the un.ethical practice Of an individual within the group.

April 12, 1972 901

PART I The Professional Associations of Manitoba co-operated with your Committee in both the dialogues and in presenting briefs to your committee, Submissions were made by the following Professional Associations of Manitoba: 1, Agrologists, Manitoba Institute of 2, Architects, Manitoba Association of 3, Accountants, Institute of Chartered, Certified, Industrial 4, Chiropodists, Manitoba Association of 5, Chiropractors, Manitoba Association of 6, Dental, Manitoba Dental Association 7.

Dietetic Association of Manitoba 8, Engineers, Association of Professional 9, Interior Designers of Manitoba 10, Land Surveyors, Manitoba Association of 11, Law Society of Manitoba 12, Licensed Practical Nurses 13, Occupational Therapists, Association of (Manitoba) 14, Opthalmic Dispensers 15, Optometric, Manitoba Optometric Association 16, Pharmaceutical Association of Manitoba 17.

Physicians & Surgeons, College of (Manitoba) 18, Physiotherapists, Association of Manitoba 19, Psychiatric Nurses Association of Manitoba 20, Psychologists Association �f Manitoba 21, Registered Nurses, Manitoba Association of 22, Social Workers, Manitoba Institute of Registered 23, Speech & Hearing, Association (Manitoba) 24, Teachers, Manitoba Teachers Association 25, Veterinary Medical Association (Manitoba) Because of the amount of information presented and the shortage of time in which to give this information the attention it deserves, your committee recommends: 1) That the Special Committee of the Legislature on Professional Associations be recon stituted with the same terms of reference, 2) That the Special Committee on Professional Associations have leave of the House to strike off sub- committees,

PART Il Optometry Act - Bill No, 21 Your committee recommends that

Section 17(1) of Bill No. 21 be amended by adding at the end of the

section the words: "and unless he or she possesses a doctorate conferred by a University in Canada". Your committee recommends that

Section 17(2) of Bill No, 21 -A n Act to amend the Optometry Act be deleted, The Architects Act - Bill No, 30 Your committee recommends that the Bill be reintroduced in the House, MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George. MR , URUSKI : Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the report of the Standing Committee on Agriculture, MR . CLERK: Your Standing Committee on Agriculture beg leave to present the following as their report: Your Standing Committee on Agriculture was appointed at the Third Session of the 29th Legislature, 5 May, 1971.

By a resolution passed in the Legislature on Tuesday, 20 July, 1971, your Standing Committee consisting of Honourable Messrs. BURTNIAK , PAWLEY, USKIW, Messrs. ADAM, BARKMAN, BARROW, EINARSON, FERGUSON, FROESE, GONICK, GOTTFRIED, HENDERSON,

902 April 12, 1972 (MR. CLERK Cont'd). JOltGENSON, McBRYDE, McGREGOR, SHAFRANSKI, TURN- BULL, URUSKI and WATT was appointed and instructed to hold hearings on rural development, low incomes and instability in agriculture, dwindling farm numbers, the decline of small communities and the uncertainty about the future of rural Manitoba and to provide opportunities for rural people to express their views on policies related to agriculture and rural development. MR. URUSKI was appointed Chairman and the quorum was set at ten members.

Your Committee was adjourned to sit during the Session, during recess or after proroga tion and to hold public hearings as deemed advisable and to report to this House on matters referred to it at the next Session of the Legislature. ' Your_ Committee met on: Monday, January 31, 19'72, at Dauphin; Tuesday, February 1, 1972, at Swan River; Monday, February 7, 1972, at Brandon; Tuesday, February 8, 1972, at Gladstone; Monday, February 21, 1972, at Rossburn; Tuesday, February 22, 1972, at Roblin; Thursday, February 24, 1972, at Winnipeg; Monday, February 28, 1972, at Fisher Branch; Tuesday, February 29, 1972, at Beausejour; Friday, March 3, 1972, at Carman; Monday, March 6, 1972 at Winnipeg.

Your Committee received several briefs and many persons made oral presentations. There is great concern among rural residents over the decline of rural communities and the dwindling farm numbers. The basic cause of deterioration in the countryside is seen as the low level of net farm incomes and the instability of agricultural prices and marketings. The majority of the presentations made to your Committee dealt with this basic problem.

Many individuals and farm groups expressed the opinion that one requirement for achieving stability in agriculture is the establishment of minimum prices for the major farm commodities. The continuously rising costs of goods and services bought by farmers was another cause for concern. Many persons were of the opinion that either these costs had to be controlled or farm prices should be adjusted periodically to reflect the higher costs of production. Farmers generally were concerned that minimum prices, deficiency payments, and two-price systems would be interpreted as subsidies to farmers,

whereas in the opinion of the farmers they are consumer subsidies. For that reason some persons making representation to your Committee were of the opinion that higher prices should be passed on to the consumers rather than have payments made by governments. Presentations made to your Committee expressed deep concern over the difficulties that young people have to overcome when they wish to establish them:elves as farme rs. The amount of capital and credit required to establish a farm enterprise is greater than most persons are able to assume.

The transfer of farms from one generation to the next is becoming ever more difficult because of these capital requirements. On the basis of the submissions received your Committee recommends that the Minister of Agriculture evaluate the many suggestions intended to deal with the problem of depopulation of rural areas and designed to bring stability to our farming communities such as strengthening the position of farmers in marketing and pricing, as well as matters pertaining to land use.

Your Committee recommends that the Minister of Agriculture consider measures that would provide farmers with security of tenure and measures that would facilitate the transfer of farms from one generation to another. Several submissions made to your Committee dealt with the desirability of stimulating agriculture- related industrial activity in rural areas.

In this connection your Committee recommends that the Minister of Agriculture conclude an industrial milk market - sharing agreement with the Canadian Dairy Commission, which will permit an expansion in the pro duction of industrial milk and stimulate the manufacture of cheese in several communities in the province. A number of submissions were received requesting aid from the Government of Manitoba in providing residents of small communities with water and sewer systems at reasonable rates.

Your Committee recommends that the Government of Manitoba provide assistance to small communities in order that the residents of such communities can obtain the benefits of a relia ble supply of water and sewer systems at rates that would not impose an unreasonable burden upon them. In their submissions many farmers expressed their deep concern over the level of taxes on farm land. In particular many farmers are of the opinion that land taxes levied for the purpose of financing education should be reduced still further.

Also farmers and residents of rural communities would like to see the areas of toll-free telephone calls extended, Your

�------ ---- April 12, 1972 903 (MR. CLERK Cont'd) •••• Committee recommends that the Manitoba Telephone System pursue the studies of extended area service currently underway for the purpose of improving the service to rural subscribers. Your Committee further recommends that the difficult question of finding a formula for financing education that would be acceptable to all remain under continuous review.

Finally, your Committee wishes to express its deep appreciation to the many farmers and resi4ents of rural communities who have come forward with suggestions to combat the low income and instability in agriculture and to halt the decline of small communities, Their sub missions and their comments provide a most valuable background for the making of agricultural policies. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan. HON." RlJSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour) (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether I could have some guidance from you and the Clerk. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR.

PAULLEY: I acknowledge that the receiving of a report is not debatable but I'm wondering whether or not it is the requirement that a motion to receive the report should not be given with the tabling of the report. Otherwise it may be that there isn't any formal propo sition before us; and of course it's not debatable unless 48 hours later somebody wishes to raise the matter of concurrence, but I'm wondering whether or not formally we shoUld not have a motion to receive the report, MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris, On the same point? MR.

WARNER H, JORGENSON (Morris): I was about to suggest that in order to have the reports properly before this House that it would be necessary to move a motiori that the report be received and then it would be properly before the House. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR, SIDNEY GREEN, Q. C. (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I want to just make the further point that it's more than a formality. Presumably the Legislature could refuse to receive the report, they could vote against it, So although no debate it could be voted in, MR.

SPEAKER: In that case I shall refer back to the first motion by the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. MR. BOYCE: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Flin Flon, the report of the Committee be received. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, MR . SPEAKER: Report of the Honourable Member for St. George. We lost him for a moment, We'll go on to the one with the Honourable Member for Logan, we'll get back to the other one in a moment. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS (Logan): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the Report of the Standing Committee on Industrial Relations, and I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Osborne, that the report of the Committee be received. MR. CLERK: Your Standing Committee on Industrial Relations beg leave to present the following as their report! Your Standing Committee of the Legislature on Industrial Relations composed of Hon. Messrs. GREEN, McBRYDE, PAULLEY, Messrs.

BARROW, BEARD, BILTON, ENNS, GIRARD, GONICK, GOTTFRIED, JENKINS, McKENZIE, MOUG, PATRICK, SHAFRANSKY, TURNBULL and WALDING was established on Wednesday, May 5, 1971, Your Committee was authorized by a resolution adopted in the Legislature on Monday, July 12, 1971 to sit during recess or after prorogation to consider such matters as a Labour Code for Manitoba and matters of concern to workers and industries, and report at the next session of the Legislature, Your Committee appointed Mr� Jenkius as Chairman and the quorum was set at nine members.

Meetings were held on: Monday, November 22, 1971; Tuesday, November 23, 1971; Wednesday, November 24, 1971; Thursday, November 25, 1971; Friday, November 26, 1971, Written and oral submissions were submitted by the interested parties in the labour management field. The Committee referred these submissions to the Minister of Labour. Your Committee recommends that the Minister of Labour be instructed to present a draft bill dealing with these matters to the House, Your Committee also recommends that the draft

904 April 12, 1972 (MR. CLERK cont•d) • • • • bill be referred to the Standing Committee on Industrial Relations for further study. MR . SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George on his report. MR . URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose, that the report of the committee be received. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Matthews. MR . WALLY JOHANNSON (St. Matthews): Mr .

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Vital, that the Report of the Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs be received. MR . CLERK: Your Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs beg leave to present the following as their report: Your Standing Committee of the Legislature on Municipal Affairs composed of Hon. Messrs: GREEN, McBRYDE, PAWLEY, Messrs. ADAM, BARKMAN, BOYCE, JENKINS, JOHANNSON, JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek), McGILL, McKELLAR, MOUG, PATRICK, SH AFRANSKY, ltrs. TRlJEMAN, Messrs.

TURNBULL and URUSKI, was established on Wednesday, May 5, 1971: - Your Committee was authorized by a resolution adopted in the Legislature on Tuesday, July 20 , 1971. 1. To consider for further study the subject matter of Bill (No. 78)

An Act to Amend the Municipal Act (2) during recess or after prorogation and report at the next session of the Legislature. 2. To enquire into the functions, powers and role of the Local Government Districts and recommend any possible improvement with respect to the powers and role of the Local Government Districts at the next session of the Legislature • . 3. To consider such other matters as may be referred, from time to time, by the Minister of Municipal Affairs. 4. To sit during recess or after prorogation. Mr. Johannson was appointed Chairman and the quorum was set at nine {9) members.

Your Committee met on: Friday, December 10, 1971, Winnipeg; Tuesday, December 21, 1971, Winnipeg; Monday, January 17, 1972, The Pas; Tuesday, January 18, 1972, Swan River; Wednesday, January 19, 1972, Rorketon (a.m.); Wednesday, January 19, 1972, Alonsa(evening) ; Thursday, January 20, 1972, Moosehorn (a.m.); Thursday, January 20, 1972, Poplarfield (evening); Friday, January 21, 1972, St. Laurent; Thursday, February 17, 1972, St.

George (a. m.); Thursday, February 17, 1972, Prawda (evening) ; Friday, February 18, 1972, Vita(p.m.) Friday, February 18, 1972, Sprague (evening); Tuesday, March 7, 1972, Winnipeg; Wednesday, March 8, 1972, Winnipeg. Your Committee has considered the briefs submitted to the Committee and recommends: 1. That the L.G.D. Committees of non-industrial L.G.D. 's be elected by ballot, as per councils of R. M. •s, according to the applicable provisions of the Municipal Act, and that the L.G.D. Committees of L.G.D. 's be given defined legislative and administrative powers. 2.

That an annual public meeting of the non-industrial L.G.D. be held, and that annual division meetings be held to consider the annual budget and other matters of public concern. 3. That there be an evaluation of existing methods of information dissemination, and that the provincial government ascertain methods of improving delivery of information. 4. That the burden of supporting the cost of the Winnipeg Local Government Districts head office be removed from the residents of the L.G.D. 's and be carried by the province. 5.

That there be a review of government policy regarding tax sale land, lease land and drainage. 6. That the Department of Municipal Affairs study the requests made to this committee of moving some communities into the jurisdiction of the Department of Northern Affairs. 7. That the committee be instructed by the House to enquire into the functions, powers and role of the Local Government Districts not covered by this report during recess or after prorogation and recommend any possible improvement with respect to the powers and role of the Local Government Districts at the next session of the Legislature. 8.

That the subject matter of Bill 78 be reintroduced in the form of a bill this session,

�- --- ! April 12, 1972 (MR, CLERK cont'd) • • • but that any member of council a)- who is convicted of an offence under subsection (6.1) of

Section 49, or under

Section 124, or under

Section 104 of the Crininal Code (Canada); or 905

b) against whom a judgment is obtained in a civil action under 124 shall not forfeit his seat, but shall absent himself from council meetings until all appeals are exhausted with possible provision for a time limit on appeals. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I might raise a point of order at this time dealing with the method in which these reports are presented.

It perhaps may sound like a small matter but I think in order to properly present these reports before the House they should be presented before the House first and the Chairman of the Committee presenting the report should say "I intend to move that the report, later this day, that the report of the Committee be received." Then at an appropriate time in our proceedings he rises in his place and asks that the Report of the Committee be received. I think we're doing the two things at once and I think that is improper at this stage to present the report and ask that it be received in the same motion. MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I really don't see much difference because it is presumed by the members of the Assembly that the reports have been approved by the respective com mittees for forwarding to the House. -- (Interjection) -- I beg your pardon? Oh it's not right. Oh. I understand, Mr. Speaker, that this is the way it has been done historically; that the report that is submitted to the House has been agreed upon by the Committee itself and all that is really happening in this is that the report of the respective committees is now in possession of the House itself.

As House Leader I'm prepared to discuss this matter with the Member for Morris and if there seems to be some hang- up maybe we can iron it out, but I don't think that there's anything basically different in what we're doing than has been the tradition in the House, with the exception of course of the agreement through the Rules Committee that there be no debate on the receiving of the report. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR.

JORGENSON: If I may, Sir, I think there is a difference in that although members may wish to vote against the receiving of a Committee Report they will have no objection to the Committee Chairman presenting his report before the House.

There are two separate motions here and for that reason I would suggest that-- and it doesn't take up that much time of the House since the report's not debatable anyway--- that in order to have it properly before the House there be a motion to present the report and then, as in the case today, after they've made the rounds and they go back to the first one again and he asks them for permission to receive the report. I think that this procedure is the proper one. MR . SPEAKER: Order, please.

After the House Leaders have made up their minds I would be happy to have them inform me as to what procedure they would like me to adopt. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. JACOB M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Speaker, on that point of order. Are we assured now by the goverument that motions will come forward not just to receive the reports but so that the reports will be able to be debated? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: I think it's proper for me to answer my honourable friend from Rhineland.

The answer is "no" unless there is a desire either by the goverument or by the opposition to introduce a motion 48 hours after the receipt of the report. My honourable friend who is an expert in the rules I'm sure, if he took a look at that would understand the procedure. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please, Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports. The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce,

906 April 12, 1972 MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS HON. LEONARD S. EV ANS (Minister oflndu stry and Commerce) (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker; it gives me great pleasure to inform the members of the House that this is the first anniversary of Morden Fine Foods Limit ed. And on occasion of this first anniversary, Mr. Speaker, we have provided samples for each member of the House , and I wanted to inform the memb�rs that the production of this company has exceeded all of our projections. At the pre sent time we produce four kinds of canned goods, those which you see before us.

We are now in our '72 program going to expand to eight new additional product lines and I can ad vise the members of the House that last year while there was over 2, 000 acres under production, thi s coming year we expe ct to have a 10 to 20 percent increase in agriculture production for the plant . We've involved farmers in 85 contracts and we estimate that we 've poured $400, 000 into the provincial economy particularly in the Morden area through wages, farm incomes and local purchases and taxes. The cannery employs 25 people the year round and 125 people at the peak of production.

I want to take the opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to thank the management and staff of the company for their fine effort and particularly Dr. Charles Walkof of the Morden Experimental Farm for his technical assistance. He , Mr . Speaker, is a member of the company's board of directors; and I would also like to thank the consumer s of Manitoba for making this the success that it is and as represented by the ladies who are your guests and my guests toda y in the gallery . Thank you very much . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR . EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr .

Speaker, I'd like to acknowledge the state ment made by the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce and to thank him for the gifts that are distributed here on thi s side particularly . I notice, Mr. Speaker, that we've been given a bountiful supply of beans but he's not distributing much corn, Mr . Speaker. We are perhaps to take from that that he considers that this Legislature is already adequately supplied with the corn. Mr .

Speaker , on a related topic , I think it's rather remarkable that the Minister has been able to obtain your permis sion to distribute this rather bountiful gift and to place it on the desks in front of us. We had quite a consi derable debate on whether or not there should be such things as cups of coffee brought into this Legislature and now we see that having passed that bill we are now in full swing . So I would expect that from here on, Mr. Speaker, there may be other gifts and other thing s. MR . SPEAKER: Order, please. Order . MR . McGILL: Mr .

Speaker , in acknowledging the statement of the Minister might I suggest to him, Sir , through you, that in addition to thi s visible evidence of their productivity would he be prepared now to present us with some financial statements of their activities so that we might make our judgment as to whether or not the operations are not only producing a good produce but that they are also doing so in a profitable way and that the taxpayers of Manitoba are not being asked to provide additional subsidies in this respect.

I think it would be an important and usef ul addition to the statement of the Minister to present the financial facts as well . Thank you. MR . SPEAKER: Order , please. Order , please. I should like to indi cate to the Honourable Member for Brandon West it is not unusual for the Chair to grant permis sion to .members when they are wanting to indicate what is taking place in their constituencies. We have had crocuses on the desks; we have had cheese; we have had honey and many other thing s, so this is not a new departure or new venture. Any further mini sterial statements and tabling of reports?

The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. HON . RENE E. TOUPIN (Minister of Health and Social Development)(Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I, too , would like to present something for the citizens of this province and thi s per tains to the pensioners that we have in the Province of Manitoba. I would like this House to be made aware of a release that will be given shortly pertaining to an Order-in-C ouncil that was approved by Cabinet this morning relative to the passing on of a pension supplement.

Actually the increase is reflecting higher living costs in the Province of Manitoba and amounts to $2.70 a month for a single pensioner and $2.55 a month each member of a married couple where both are pensioners. The combined old age pension plus guaranteed income supplement effective April 1, 1972, $137.50 for a single pensioner and $260.10 for a married couple where both are

April 12, 1972 907 (MR . TOUPIN cont 'd). . . . . full pensioners. Such an increase would have automatically eliminated some elderly persons under the Social Allowance Act and the change would have brought their incomes to a point higher than the needs recognized and provided for under the Manitoba legislation. To ci rcumvent this, the Manitoba Government raised its own assist ance allowance for pensioners in special categories by the amount of the increase so that it could be passed on.

The same step was taken last year by the Provincial Government when substantial increases 23. 59 for single pensioners and 32 .18 for a married couple were passed on to pensioners . I must say that very littl e publicity was made by the Press pertaining to thi s amount that had been passed on last year . The policy that was in operation in Manitoba in the 19 60's had been one of retaining income supplements and of establi shing independently levels of social allowances. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morri s, on a point of order. MR.

JORGENSON: First of all, according to the direction you gave the other day , the statement should contain only the bare facts necessary to inform the House . That's the first one . Secondly, the Mini ster has not supplied the Official Opposition with a copy of that state ment so that it can be followed as provided by the rules . I must, Sir, raise a point of order of the Minister straying far beyond what is permis sible under the rules at this stage of our deliberatio ns . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minist er of Labour . MR . PAULLEY: Mr .

Speaker, I agree with my honourable friend the Member for Morris and maybe I am guilty of negligence in not directly informing my colleagues who make state ments accordingly. If you recall, Sir, the other day I made a statement myself which was -- yesterday -- dealing with unemployment which accompanied the statement . ' I accept the valid position of my honourable friend from Morris and all of the Ministers of the Crown will be -- the rule will be drawn directly to their attention so that we don't have a repetition .

So I accept on behalf of the government criticism of the Honourable Member for Morris and possibly at this particular stage the Honourable Mini ster of Health and Social Development will cease and maybe, in order to accommodate the rules of the House , reintroduc e his statement tomorrow if that is satisfactory, otherwise we can continue with it today . I leave that in your hands and by agreement with my friends opposite . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Health and Social Development. MR. TOUPIN: On the same point of order, Mr . Speaker .

I did preface my opening re marks by saying that copies of thi s statement will be available within a few minut es� I have only fini shed, Mr . Speaker, the preparation of these notes . There was an Order-in-Council passed this morning by Cabinet; I wanted this House to be made aware of the facts and give ex planatory notes on the Order-in -Council before it got out on the Press . That's the oiily reason I brought it here now . Information Services , Mr . Speaker, is preparing copies, the House will have them within minu tes. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge . MRS .

INEZ TRUEMAN (Fort Rouge): Mr . Speaker, I thank the Minister MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The honourable member is speaking on the point of order? MRS . TRUEMAN: No . MR . SPEAKER: Order, please . The Honourable Mini ster I gather hasn't completed his statement. I just wanted to make one point in regard to procedure . Let us not also forget the Speaker is supposed to have a copy as well according to the rules . The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR . TOUPIN: Well, Mr .

Speaker, before I continue my remarks, when I did say that the House would be getting copies, you are the Speaker of this House and naturally you will get a copy. To continue the press release that will be made: There i s about 8, 400 old age pensioners receiving social allowance in Manitoba -- that is in the past year for 1971/72. About a third lived in institutio ns, and another third in the community received cash assi stance and one-third in the commni ty received social allowance health service benefit s only . The in crease would be passed on to all with the exceptio n of those residing in insti tution s.

These had some of their personal needs met through the per diem rates paid to the institutions and the same provision regarding comfort allowances is worked in the per diem rates where adjusted periodically. I would like to add, Mr. Speaker , that three other provinces in Canada I am told have

908 April 12 , 1972 (MR. TOUPIN cont 'd) . . • . . equally decided to pass on this increase that was announced by the Federal Government and not necess arily amend the regulation s pertaining to social allowance. MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge . MRS . TRUEMAN: Mr . Speaker, I thank the Mini ster for his statement and would like to say that we're very pleased to see that some recognition is being made of an inc reased cost of living by which the pensioners suffer at the present time .

I have some doubts whether the sums mentioned are completely adequate; however, it is certainly of some help to them . There is another group who are not eligible for social assi stance but who still live on very marginal means and I sometime s think that they are even more pathetically in difficult ci rcumstances than those who do receive government assistance . Without having the opportunity to see the statement at the present time, Mr . Speaker , I think we would like to reserve the right to perhaps comment further on this policy perhaps at the time of the Estimate s. MR.

SPE AKER: Any other ministerial statements or tabling of reports? Notic es of motion; Introduction of bil ls . The Honourable Minister of Transportation . HON. PETER BURTNIAK (Minister of Hi ghways)(Dauphin): Mr . Speaker, I beg the in dulgence of the House to have the matter stand . MR. SPEAKER: (Agreed) Oral questions. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SIDNEY SPIV AK, Q .C. (Leader of the Opposition) (River Heights): Mr . Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, my question is to the Minister of Health and Social Development or the Attorney-General .

Have representations been made to either the departments concern ing an allegation that six people froze to death in the Main Street area within thi s winter period? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR . TOUPIN: Well, Mr . Speaker , I don't want to let this question pass on; I'll take the question as notice and check it out . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General . HON. A. H. MACKI.JNG, Q.C . (Attorney-General)(St. James): Mr .

Speaker, no advice has been given or no information has been given to my department indicating anything of what the honourable member suggests . MR . SPIVAK: A supplementary question to the Attorney-General . If a request was made for an investigation by an inte rested • . . MR . SPEAKER: Order, please. It's a hypothetical question . The Honourable Leader of the Opposition, would he care to rephrase his question. MR. SPIVAK: Would the Attorney-General undertake an investigation if a request was made to him by an interested group? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry . MR. L.

R. (BUD) SHERMAN (Fort Ga rry): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Attorney General in his capacity as Mini ster responsible for the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission . I would ask the Attorney-General are Manitobans, including those in the low income category, going to be faced in the next few weeks with a 150 percent increase in the cost of wedding ban quet permit s ? MR. SPE AKER: The HonoU:rable Attorney-General . MR . MACKI.JNG: The question of an increase in the fees charged in respect to permits is under review . MR . SHERMAN: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Among the fees under review, is consideration being given to a 400 percent increase in the cost of regular banquet permit s from $2.0 0 to $10. 00? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable the Attorney-General. Order, please . The Honourable the Attorney -General . MR. MACKI.JNG: Mr . Speaker, I may have been in error when I said the question was under review . It had been under review; I believe that a decisio n has been taken for a change in the permit fees but I would have to take the question as notic e to confirm as to when any change will take place. MR . SHERMAN: A further supplementary, Mr . Speaker.

Do the changes that are being considered come into the suggestion that they will be brought into effect on the 1st of June?

April 12, 1972 909 MR . MAC KIJNG: I 'm not sure of the date, Mr. Speaker, I've indicated I'll take the ques tion as notice and I assume that we'll be able to give you the details then. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. JOSEPH P.BOROWSKI (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Attorney General. Will he consider giving police protection to the Chief of the Fort Alexander Reserve whose life has been threatened, until such time as . . • MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The question was placed when the gentleman got to the protection part.

The honourable -- (Interjection) -- let me explain to the Honourable Member for Thompson. His question was valid up to the protection part. The supplementary that he was going to add was not relevant to the question any more. The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. BOROWSKI: Mr. Speaker, the question doesn't make any sense unless they know why the police protection is being asked for. MR.

SPEAKER: I'm not going to debate the issue with the Honourable Member for Thompson but I would like to indicate that the question was raised yesterday already and I am allowing it because there was just a little difference in shading in what he was saying today. The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MACKIJNG: Mr. Speaker, I have indicated in the House earlier that I was aware of the request and I indicated that the question had been taken under consideration and I think I have to leave it there. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR . HENRY J. EINARSON (Rock Lake): Mr.

Speaker, I direct my question to the Acting Minister of Mines and Resources. In view of the fact that he's held meetings with' the fishermen, could he indicate to us on whose authority have the .quotas been granted to the fishermen to fish this summer? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR . EVANS: I wonder if the honourable member would be a little more specific as to what he is speaking about. MR . EINARSON: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm wondering on whose authority the quotas have been granted to the fishermen.

I understand the fishermen are now going to be allowed to fish in Lake Winnipeg. Who has authorized the quotas to these fisherman? MR . EVANS: Yes, I presume you're talking particularly about Lake Winnipeg and the other lakes where commercial fishing is engaged in in the province. The quotas are established by the Government of Manitoba via the Department of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management, as has been the case for decades. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR . J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Does the Freshwater Fish Marketing Board have any influence on those quotas? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR . EVANS: Well there is an element of relevance in this matter. I would say the ques tion of quotas is related to the matter of conservation of the fishery; it's also related of course to the ability to sell fish. The influence of the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation or its concern of course is to sell fish that is acceptable to various markets including the American market which buys 95 percent of the freshwater fish of this part of Canada. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . SPIV AK: A supplementaty question. I wonder if the Minister can inform the House whether the quotas that have been authorized are really sufficient to give the fishermen a living? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR . EV ANS: Mr.

Speaker, the actual quotas have not yet been completely finalized but whatever the decision may be with regard to quotas or limits, as has been the case in the past, it will be decided essentially on the basis of the welfare of the fishery, the welfare of the fishermen concerned for the long term longevity and usefulness of the lakes of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR . McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, did I hear the Minister say . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Would he ask ... MR. McKENZIE: Are these welfare type of quotas? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie.

910 April 12, 1972 MR . GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health and Social Development. Could the Minister inform the House and the people of the province as to the status of the Manitoba Home for Boys at Portage la Prairie? I under stand key staff are leaving because they do not know if they're going to have a job much longer. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR . TOUPIN: The status of the Home for Boys in Portage la Prairie has not changed. It's still open for business.

We're still caring for boys at the Home for Boys in Portage la Prairie. There may be less re"Ierrals now than there was a few years back but there was no change in the policy of this government pertaining to the home itself. I could, Mr. Speaker, supply the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie maybe more details pertaining to the function of the Home for Boys relative to maybe new facilities that will be coming on stream in the Province of Manitoba in the future . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. BEN HANUSCHAK (Minister of Education)(Burrows): Mr .

Speaker, may I ask the House leave to make a statement in the capacity of it and as Minister? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR . JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, leave will be granted providing that we follow what is supposed to be the proper practice in this House and that is ask for permission to revert the motion so that the Minister's statement can be replied to. If it is in reply to a question that's a different thing, but if it's a ministerial statement we should have the opportunity to reply to it, and to do that we must revert to that part of our Order Paper that permits the Minister to do this.

MR . SPEAKER: Is it agreed that we revert to the Ministerial Statement

section of our Orders - (Agreed). The Honourable Minister of Education. MINISTERIAL STATEMENT MR . HANUSCH AK: Mr. Speaker, the statement that I wish to make is not one which I can assure you would in any way generate debate but it's a matter of, I believe, public interest that I feel ought to be drawn to the attention of the House today.

A few hours ago marked the conclusion of the burial services of a church and community leader in the Province of Manitoba, and Canada, the Most Reverend Metropolitan Ilarion, Primate of the Ukrainian Greek-Orthodox Church of Canada who passed away on March 29 in Misericordia Hospital in Winnipeg at 91 years of age, and his funeral was held today.

The reason for the delay is because in keeping with the customs and rites of the Ukrainian Greek Orthodox Church, and in view of the fact it encroached upon Holy Week, and the celebration of Easter, it was therefore not possible to perform the funeral services any earlier. Most Reverend Metropolitan enjoyed a varied career, born in 1882 near Kiev, in the Ukraine, of a peasant family. He graduated from St. Vladimer University in 1909, with first class honours in the Faculty of History. He taught secondary school near Kiev, then later at St. Vladimer University, again in Kiev.

Then in 1917 following the revolution, he was appointed member of the council of the then Minister of Education of the Ukrainian Central Council, and in 1918 he served as Minister of Education in the short-lived government of tre Ukrainian National Republic. Later, due to the political state of affairs in the country as they existed at that time, he sought refuge in Poland, then in Austria, devoting the bulk of his life at various times either to teaching university or to religious works. He arrived in Canada in 1947 and he was elected Primate of the Ukrainian Greek .Orthodox Church of Canada in August, 1951.

He was very much involved in, not only in religious, but in cultural activity of the Ukrainian community in Canada, and to a very great extent to that of the people of the Province of Manitoba, and he was probably one who did make a very significant contribution towards the establishment of cultural activity of ethnic groups, in particular in that of the Ukrainian com munity, to follow such a pattern that would lead not to the setting apart of various ethnic groups, but rather through developing an appreciation of their history, their folklore, their customs and thus developing a better appreciation of each other's national background, and thus contributing towards making us better Canadians.

And with this aim in mind he was instrumental in the founding of St. Andrews College which was affiliated with the University of Manitoba on the Fort Garry Campus; and in fact, not only was involved in the founding of it but did in fact contribute of his time in teaching in the Faculty of Theology at that school. I simply take this opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to draw the attention of the members of this

April 12 , 1972 911 (MR . HANU SCHAK cont'd) ...•.

House to this event, hoping that they would take cognizant of it, I am sure that the members of the House share the concern in the loss of a leader in religious and cultural life of the people of the Ukrainian-Canadian community, and in particular those Ukrainian Canadians of the Greek -Orthodox faith, and no doubt, if we did have the oppor tunity to participate in the service conducted earlier today, those who understand the Ukrainian language no doubt would have joined with them, and even those who do not, probably would have felt the sentiment of the people and would have reacted emotionally and spiritually in exactly the same way when they would have heard the words commonly sung on such an occasion, a very simple expression in Ukrainian, vichna pamiat, meaning everlasting memory, and I'm sure that all of us would extend our sympathy to his family, and to others who were closely associated with him, and to those who respected him as their church leader, as their religious leader.

MR . SPIVAK: I join with the Minister in paying tribute as he did just a few moments ago. I must say that it was our intention to reply or to use one of the replies in the Budget Speech as an appropriate time for our party to be able to pay tribute. I am happy that it has worked out the way that it has and the Minister has seen fit to bring it in by way of a ministerial state ment. We on this side, join in the tribute and also join in the expression of consolation and sorrow to the Ukrainian community for the loss of an elder and a spiritual leader .

Reference was made to the fact, and I think it is important to recognize that his background was that of Kiev, Ukraine, and although he arrived in Canada in the latter part of this century, or towards the middle, the latter part of the years of the century past so far, nevertheless he became the head of the mass of i=igrants who in fact fled that area in the early part of the century and who came to Canada for freedom of religi on and for freedom of opportunity, and that as a spiritual head he was the head of a group of people who have helped fashion the mosiac of Manitoba and who have made, and continue to make, a great contribution, and continued con tribution which at the same time does not diminish their cultural and historical background.

And for that contribution, we, in this province have a right to be very thankful. We again express our sorrow to the community for the loss of a leader whose time has come, but who was fortunate to have many years and was fortunate to have been able even in his later life, to have made such a significant contribution. We join in the tribute that was made by the Minister and we know that his memory will be honoured for years to come by not only the Ukrainian community, but the community of Manitoba as a whole. MR . ··SPE AKER: We revert back to Oral Questions . The Honourable Minister of Transportation.

ORAL QUE STION PERIOD - Cont'd MR . BURTNI AK: Mr.

Speaker, a couple of days ago the Honourable Member for Morris asked a question of me which I took as notice at the time, and perhaps I could have answered yesterday, but I thought rather than answer the question which I wasn't quite sure of the word ing, I thought I had better check with Hansard, which I have before me at this time, and I would like to read the question that the honourable member asked, I quote: ''I should like to direct my question to the Minister of Highways and ask him if he could inform the House the reasons why government automobiles and trucks are registered in Brandon rather than in Winnipeg ." And my reply to that question, Mr.

Speaker, is that is not correct. MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR . LEONA RD A. BA RKMAN (La Verendrye): Mr . Speaker, I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Health and Social Development. Have each of the approximately 8,4 00 pensioners that he mentioned before, already received notice of the increases that were mentioned before? MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR . TOUPIN : Mr.

Speaker, regarding the increases that were passed on in 1971 all the old age pensioners that were affected were so advised by the Department of Health and Social Development; and again with the passing of this Order-in-Council the press release and notice will be sent out to the pensioners involved. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR . JORGENSON: I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Highways and ask him if he would supply this House with the information regarding the vehicles that are being registered in this province.

Of the 1400 automobiles how many are registered in Winnipeg, and how many in Brandon; and of the 400 trucks, how many are registered in Brandon, and how many are registered in Winnipeg?

912 April 12 , 1972 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Transportation. MR. BURTNIAK: Mr . Speaker, I have never suggested or professed the fact that I am an authority on the rules of the House , but I believe that the Honourable Member from Morris pre tends to be quite an authority and therefore I would imagine that he knows the procedure to follo w in this respect. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Devel opment. The Honourable . . • Order, please . . . the Honourable Member for Morris . MR.

JORGENSON : May I ask then the Minister of Highways, if I were to submit an Order for Return could I expect an answer before the end of this ses sion ? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please . The Honourable Minister for Transportation. MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Speaker , I would be glad to answer that question. I would like to suggest, again, that as the honourable member already stated, he knows the procedures to follow and I would suggest that he does so . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Devel opment. MR. TOUPIN : Mr .

Speaker , I have copies of the statement that I made and I would like to make a correction on the few notes that I read a while ago . One pertains to the three pro vinces that I mentioned have passed on the same increase . In 1971 this was correct, the three provinces that passed on the increase being Ontario, British Columbia and New Brunswick. To date -- and yet the announcement of the Federal Government is quite recent -- only British Columbia have decided to pass on the increase . I have copies of the press release for members of the House . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR.

SHERMAN: Mr . Speaker , I would like to direct a question to the Honourable First Minister , and ask him whether the presence of the Minister Without Portfolio at the Lake Winnipeg Fishermen 's Meeting in the Marlborough Hotel reflects the government's intention to have him take over the portfolio of Mines and Natural Resources ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossme re): Mr . Speaker , I am well aware of the great eagerness with which my honourable friend awaited a Cabinet portfolio prior to June, 19 69. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR.

SHERMAN: A supplementary question to the First Minister , Mr . Speaker . Is that portfolio up for grabs? MR. SCHREYER: Mr . Speaker, is the Honourable Member for Fort Garry implying that he is ? MR. SHERMAN : A supplementary answer, Mr . Speaker . . . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry . MR. SHERMAN : A further supplementary, Mr . Speaker . Would the First Minister accept the admission from me that I 'm not too bad a fisherman? MR. SCHREYER: Not when it comes to the question period. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle -Russell . MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle-Russel l): Thank you, Mr.

Speaker . My question is for the Minister of Universities . Can the Minister indicate to me how many students will be applying for jobs this summer as the University year is almost over ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Colleges and Universities. HON. SAUL A. MILLER (Minister of Colleges and Universities)( Seven Oaks): Mr . Speaker, I do'nt have a cry stal ball so I can't tell him how many students might be seeking em ployment in Manitoba this summer . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR . J. DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur): Mr .

Speaker, over the beans and peas and corn I would like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Autopac. Could he tell me -- I'm sorry -- the part-time Minister of Municipal Affairs and the Minister of Autopac. Could he tell me how long it does take to get an adjustment, an appraiser to look at your car after some gook has bumped into the side of your car and crushed the whole engine and it's not fit to drive any more ? How long does it take? I've been waiting now for several days . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs .

April 12, 1972 913 HON. HOWARD R. PAWLEY (Minister of Municipal Affairs) (Selkirk): If the honourable member would like to give me his name and his ... I can arrange for the investigation. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. WATT: The Minister is asking a question. No, I won't give you his name but I will ask you a question. How long, on the average, has it been taking to get an adjustment and get your car in for service after some gook has bashed in the side of the car? A MEMBER: • . . who is he Bill? MR. WATT: One of those over there. ORDERS OF THE DAY -B UDGET ADDRESS MR .

SPEAKER : Proposed Motion of the Honourable Minister of Finance and the amend ment thereto by the Leader of the Opposition, and further amendment thereto by the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. The Honourable Member for Charleswood. I should like to indicate to the honourable member he had 17 minutes yesterday. I shall give him 25 today to get warmed up. MR . ARTHUR MOUG (Charleswood): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I took advantage last night to do the

preamble and the warm-up. I hope today that I can get down to something con structive, rather than trying to straighten out the government of the day. I found that the 17 minutes I spent last night was actually a waste of time. I see they are back today with exactly the same attitude, you know. When I went to school, as I thought they were doing last night, I used to listen to good constructive advice, and I think from the answers we got today in the question period that I fell on deaf ears on that side last night.

I have a word here out of yesterday's Tribune in regard to City Council, and I want to spend the balance of the few minutes I have left, Mr. Speaker, speaking towards Unicity, and what it is doing for us, and what it is going to do in the future. Councillor Wankling in Wildwood, he says that he feels that the 50"'1llan council is going to have to be reduced in size, the council is very cumbersome. It's developed into a tremendous kind of situation with 23 sub-committees serving the three standing committees and the executive policy committee- four communications between the several levels.

He feels that it's painstaking, frustrating and slow, to get anything done . The idea of the whole thing was to get the 12 or 13 municipali ties together so that we could save money for the people, be efficient, cut costs, equalize everybodyin the Greater Winnipegarea, and we come up to this to start with. They went into operation, unofficially sometime in October, I think October 15th. They took office on January 1st, and to date I've spoke to possibly 30 some odd of the 50 councillors, either by phone or in person, or by letter, have communicated with them and they say, no, it's just not working out.

They're looking forward to this government, to this Legislature doing something for them. They find that it's frustrating, as mentioned here -- painstaking, frustiating, and slow. They have accomplished absolutely nothing they feel since they took office. We're look ing at a date of April 12th or 13th, today, and certainly there's no way that they can think about starting to go to the bureaucrats and say, here start dumping the tax bills in the mail. They're miles and miles away from it; they have no idea when the tax bills are going to come out.

The people I know particularly in my constituency in the Tuxedo-Charleswood area of my constitu ency are damned concerned bee a use they don't know what the tax bill's going to be . And they feel that they've got to have time to get back in to the council and say -- (Inte rjection) -- Right, but they're not willing to pay it. But another thing that's coming up that several individual councils of last year didn't realize is when a job has got to be filled, it's got to be posted, and I see nothing wrong with this, it's a good thing, but now we're dealing with a half million people, 537, 000 people, Mr.

Speaker, and when you need one area engineer, or one public works foreman, or one truck driver Class 1 instead of Class 2, or Class 3, or an equipment operator, you've got to adver tise this on a board. So that piece of equipment stands still for the several days tln t it takes to have applications come in and somebody sit down and sort them out and make a decision, yes we do need a truck driver, that man has the most seniority he will get the job.

I don't disagree with the fact that seniority counts but the bigness of this now is, as I have mentioned before in this Legislature, it creates this problem here where you 're going to have a dragline sit at a gravel pit and stop production in that gravel pit at Stony Mountain while you decide who is the man longest with you that wants that job. We're going to have that with trucks in Charleswood; we're going to have that with street cleaners in Transcona; it's going to !;,e a city-wide problem. And so far to date -- and I've always admired Cotmcillor Wankling's decisions the six

914 April 12, 1972 (MR. MOUG cont 'd) . years that I spent with him in the Mayors and Reeves Association , when he was Mayor of the Municipality of Fort Garry -- be says to date the city has been getting increased costs without the benefits of centraliz ation . We have a new political structure but the duties, responsibilitie s, and resources of the city have not been changed. In other words we're going to be paying twice for whatever happens to us .

We said on this side of the House , I think it was spelled out very very clearly by the Member for Sturgeon Creek and myself that bad some experienc e in municipal affai rs previous to the amalgamation , previous to the grouping together of, or communing of the several municipali ties; what was going to happen . I think it's happened today. These councillor s who have sat around since October 15th of last year till the middle of April of this year, and they find they've accomplished nothi ng . They're fru strated.

I have a letter, Sir, from Gabriel Cloutier -- I'm not bilingual , I hope that's right - Cloutier from St. Norbert and be is concerned about being involved in the City of Winni peg now , and he knew that I spoke at one time , or asked questions in the Legislature in regards to fa rmers that have got invol ved and are part of the new City of Winnipeg, both inside the peri meter and outside . So he says -- be's wrote this letter and sent me a copy. He 's wrote this to Mr . J. A. McDonald , City Assess or of the City of Winnip eg .

It starts out the usual hellos and be goes on to say: "Under the formula used by the Metropolitan Corporation farm land was charged 15 percent of the total costs of services provided by the Metropolitan Corporation . The Provincial Government at that time felt justified to exempt farm land from the cost of a number of services neces sary to the city but of little or no value to the farmer ." Now the new city does not provide this exemption .

Bill 36 that went through last year simply says everybody's in the City of Winnipeg now , regardless of whether they're farming , whether they're runn ing the James Richardson Building , whether it's Eaton's Store, everybody pays -- last year it was 73 mills, this year, Sir, I'm sure it's going to be 80 mills, and I know that the Acting Minister of Public Works doesn't agree with me, he says that I'm touting an increase that is not going to be realistic. This man goes on to say: "This matter was brought to the attention of the Honoura ble Saul Cherniack in the form of a letter in the spring of 1971.

I am not sure if be ever received it as same has not yet been acknowledged to date." ·He goes on to say that the - this is Mr . McDonald , City Assessor -- feels that each farm will only be bit by $50 .0 0, but this is not the case b�cause this man menti ons: "I believe your statement was not altogether complete. There is some farms in the Red River Valley will, if it is large enough to support a family , comprise three or four river lots .

By multiplying the average of $50 . 00 the numb er of lots owned by such farme r, we find a different answ er." He goes on to say, "After receiv ing two phone calls concerning this matter, I visited a few farme rs in the agriculture area and the southern part of St. Vital, they are going to be hit by $150 .00." So with what I can find in caucus on our caucus . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please . The Honoura ble Finance Mini ster on a point of order. MR. CHERNIACK: Would the member please file the letter from which be was reading . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Charleswood. . MR.

MOUG: Yes, Sir, I'll file a copy of it, I want to keep lbis for my own records as well . He goes on to say that it's not a one shot increase it's something that's there to stay, and be feels that a $150 with today's economy in the farms is more than substanti al, and be feels that -- be's got something in mills here and I don 't want to get invol ved in it because there's more referenc e there to St. Vital and St. Norbert than what there is to the Cbarleswood area, so I'll bring in the Cbarleswood mill rate later. The Trappist Fathers in St. Norbert would have seen their taxes inc rease by more than $1, 100 .

Here we seem to have forgotten the basic principle recognized by a previous admini s tration that farmlands do not benefit that much more by lying within the confine s of the City . And I agree with him there because grain grown inside of the City of Winn ipeg, or inside the Metro perimeter highway, certainly is not worth five cents more than grain that's grown in Portage la Prairie and not necessa rily means that the shipping charges are any less . You don 't neces sarily market your grain at the corner of Portage and Main . I think for this reason that they have a justified complaint .

Then be goes on to say they should not bear the full cost of the operations that is nec essary to provide facilit ies such as sewer , water, Metro trans it, dis tribution of draina ges. Mostly what is required or asked by farme rs is the maintenance of land drainage and mar ket roads, and I agree with him, that's all they're concerned about. There's not one farmer in

April 12 , 1972 915 (MR . MOUG cont'd) ... .. Charleswood for instance that I lmow of, and I'm very acquainted with that area, there's nobody that's making use of the water system . I don't think there's one person that has a visitor come out there by bus, and I don •t think they ever use the bus service. So when they're faced with a -- when the City of Winnipeg is faced with a third of a million or a half a million deficit in the Transit system , certainly those farmers should not have to be part of paying the deficit.

We go on, Sir, to an area where he says in this day and age the price squeezes, surpluses, and restricted markets, over production, operating costs and taxes are part of these, and must be watched very closely if the farmer is to survive. Apart from what this letter says, Mr . Speaker , the area that I represent in Charleswood, we have an acreage charge out there on 36 .06 mills in one school district and 37 . 76 mills in anotbe r in the Municipality of Charleswood, which are both farm areas, all of one is and partially of the other school district is farm area.

We have one man out there that has a farm with 2, 600 acres and he's presently paying taxes in the neighborhood of $7.0 0 an acre .

And with the new City of Winnipeg and with the proposed · increases -- and I 'm not making reference to the promises that we got that two-thirds of the increase will be rebated to us, and one-half in the second year, and we 'll pay the full shot in the third year, I' m talking as of the third year -- that this man will go from $7.0 0 and some odd cents to close to $15 , and I don't think that any farmer in the Province of Manitoba, any farmer in the Dominion of Canada in today's economy can afford to have his taxes doubled . They're scraping today.

This man -- I lmow that that side of the House is going to say is a capitalist. This man is not there by desire, he's there by design. This is a family farm that's left to him. If he walks off and lets it go in tax sale, he 's got nothing, and no place to go for a job . And the man is close to 50 years old. How does he start out? He 's worked on a farm all his life and left this farm, finally has it paid to a point where he can show somep\'ofit, and now he's going to be forced right off the farm if the City of Winnipeg can't give him any tax conces sion out of the 85 percent that was given to him by Metro .

Now this government, now this government has got to make the move , and if the Minister of Finance, who was then the Minister of Urban Affairs and is now Acting Minister of Urban Affairs, says, "sure they can", he better go down and tell the Mayor because the Mayor on that council says they haven't got authority to make any concessions whatsoever. So if it's there to get, I say let them know. Show them the section. There 's lots of other blind holes in that Bill 36 .

Charleswood for instance is set up -- it was R-1 for the most part, which means resi dential and 60 foot lots, 55 foot lots, across their 37 sections. We put in a sewer system there a sanitary sewage system to cover R-1 only, enough ... stations, enough laterals, enough interceptor sewers to cover the R-1 only. There 's nothing in Bill 36 , Mr. Speaker, to say that if somebody comes and makes application for R3B , high density, and wants to build a 33 storey apartment block that he has to pay any dollars towards enlarging, or bettering, our sewage system.

When he moves in on one-acre land and brings in a 33 storey apartment block where there would have been five houses, he'll bring in 200 suites and they start using that sanitary sewage system, there 's no way that the next door neighbour who's had a half an acre of land out there with 60 foot frontage and its R -1 property, very very soon this man will not be allowed to build on that lot because our sewage system will be at its capacity, and there's nothing, nothing at all in Bill 36 to protect the people that own that property.

And I say that these are the things if the government would have taken the advice of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition last year and put this off for one year -- we didn't say, we didn't say do away with Bill 36 , we said you're running . You're not crawling, you're not walking, you 're running, and we asked them to take Bill 36 , re study it, bring it back after they had a comprehensive study on it, and bring it back in here and that we would certainly go along with a lot of things which is in Bill 36 . Bill 36 totally was not wrong .

But certainly those at the helm of the ship, Sir, had no idea which way the water was running. -- (Interjection) - Power hungry? I would say no, not power hungry. Because it's been proven that that side of the House cannot handle power . They don't know how to make -- they don't know the meaning of the word . But I say that certainly Bill 36 was passed far too hastily. You can go to -- I would say that if you go to the Mayor of the City of Winnipeg today and his 50 councillors, they'll say, yes, give us a carbon copy of this next year and we 'll show you what to erase .

If that bill would have been in the hands of some of the people that administered munici palities, and I say this because the Minister of Labour sits there shaking his head, and I can

916 April 12, 1972 (MR. MOUG cont'd) ..•. . hear it over here , but he should really have known better . And the Minister of Finance should have known as well because he served time on Metro , city coun cil, school boards, he knows -- (Interjection) -- Oh no, pardon me , I will retract that. He has served the people, not served time . I wouldn't say that. -- (Interjection) -- Right. But cer tainly if he had taken this bill and taken a good look at it himself, he would have known.

Be cause there 's no way that you can give anybody two-thirds discount the first year to offset the increase , and 50 percent the second year. It's the third year they're worrying about. The people in Charleswood have lived out there for 40 years . They're not concerned about 1973 and 74, they're concerned about all time . They've been there 40 years, and if they live long enough they'll be there another 40 . That, Mr. Speaker, is another mistake where they've forgotten to look at services. We have a water system in Charleswood that only brings in an R-1 water situation.

The gallons per minute to look after domestic uses in Charleswood, or in any area, I think is something like 1, 000 gallons per minute delivery, is fine for fire and domestic uses in R-1 . But the mm ute that you put up an apartment block -- I guarantee you couldn't burn it down because there 's no way with all the gas in the world and several matches that you'd find in Hull, Quebec , you still couldn't burn it down, but the point is the demand for an RCB apartment block is 3, 000 gallons per minute fire protection.

So the minute that they draw 3, 000 gallons per minute there , there 's no water left for domestic use in the R-1 area. So this is another reason why Bill 36 should have left the opening for the City of Winnipeg Council to tell anybody that was going to build this apartment block, you've got to enter into an agreement with us if not for recreation and playground facilities, that they're overloading, certainly for sewer and water.

Why should the people that's been out there for years, have paid for all the service s, put in the sewer and water that's there, paid for it, and when they go to build on an R-1 lot of 60 foot frontage there 's no water, not sufficient water for them , and not sufficient sewage. Now this is exactly the same thing, Sir, that's happening to the farmers . They don't want any sewer out there ; they don't want any water out ther e, but they've got to pay the heavy taxes .

They're going to be doubled from 3, 606 they're going to come up on par with the 197 1 taxes of the City of Winnipeg which was 73 mills last year and the city council if you ask them - I talked to 30 out of 50, and they say they figure it's going to be closer to 80. So what's going to. happen to those farmers, I don't know. The Minister of Agriculture can't seem to come up with any thing that our caucus suggests in way of relief or suggestions to make it easy for the farmers . Maybe what happened the IC EC was too succes sful at election time . Maybe this is the answer .

They were a wise group, they come out and said that they didn't plan -- they didn't lay out any great plans, their promises were very few; they had no intention of making a bunch of promises . They didn't say community participation; they didn't make a bunch of hollering on environment; they didn't holler about housing -- and housing's another thing, Sir . As soon as we get in to a committee on housing I intend to make myself heard on this Manitoba Housing Renewal .

They are going in -- they are going in subsidized housing, sticking those houses in there , su bsidized by the average working man for people , as the Member from Penbina says that want to play bingo, go to baseball games, and drink booze . And this is exactly what they're setting them up for, and not only that, but after CMHC has lent a man money to build himself an apartment block, then they send around the door knockers and this man goes knocking on doors and saying, why are you living in this apartment at $140 .00 when you can live in this one across the street at 60 bucks, 70 bucks ?

And this is exactly • • • MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member has five minutes. MR. MOUG: Thank you. They went on to make promises throughout the city about urban development , taxation, and the native peoples. Well apparently the people in the City of Winnipeg, and hopefully in the Province of Manitoba, have caught on to NDP promises because they elected seven out of something like forty. They had a little better odds than what the commun ists had because the communists ran eight candidates, one for the school board and seven for the City of Winnipeg.

Ironically enough there is a ward named in the north end of Winnipeg, Minarsky ward . There is a legion I am quite sure, named after Andrew Minarsky: I think there is a school named after Andrew Minarsky, and he was credited with the Victoria Cro ss, the highest award given to any member of the forces during the Second World War, and this man -- this thing unknown to him, because he died fighting for democracy and backing free enterprise .

In the City of Winnipeg election there was a candidate by the name of Konstantinuk - pardon my pronunciation if it is wrong -- ran in the ward that was named after Andrew Minarsky, V .C. I am sure the man would turn over in his grave if he was aware that this is going on in

April 12, 1972 917 (MR . MOUG cont'd) . the free enterprise system that he left to go overseas to fight for Canada . -- .(Interjection) -- That's right , that 's democracy, that 's who you fight for ,yeah, not communism �but democ racy, yeah, that's right . But certainly , Sir, since that time in the last 25 years everything has gone haywire in thi s community --(Interjection) -- yeah reactionary days all right ... You young boys over there, it might pay you to sit and listen .

I got a lot I can tell you and it might be a helluva lot of good to you -- (Interjection) -- No, I never served in the forces as a matter of fact --I was in the forces, but I wasn't overseas where the action was , I was home here, probably like you . -- (Interjection) -- Well then you should change your attitude if that 's the case . Well, Sir, undoubtedly I like when I get up here if I can get those alphabetical birds in the back bench there chirping because at least I know that they know they are doing the wrong thing . They know that they're not doing justice to what they were elected for .

I just wish that I had one year piece of the campaign material from June 25, 1969 . You guys haven't backed up anything that cost money -- nothing that cost money . Tax shafts, ye s. Nothing else. You didn 't do.another thing . Autopac, yes . That costs everybody money and they'll know by the time you have to go to the people again, they'll know. You can't kid anybody on that because the dollar bills are showing now. Another cost that came, maybe I should mention thi s, I've only got a minute left.

After that election it was on October 7th I guess this newspaper came out when Mayor Juba looked at that council that was elected, I guess he was looking at the free enterprise level of it and thought that he'd got a good bunch of iC EC candidates in the 39, I think that was elected, and he says in the Free Press -- no in the Tribune . He emphasized strongly the need for teamwork in the new council and said that he believed a very good slate of councillors has been elected . I am sure we will work as a team.

Then I guess when he got looking around at the one communi st and the seven NDP's who were elected, he looked at them and said, Mayor Juba sees it as a barrel of trouble . Not because the system is neces sarily wrong, but because of the men who have been elected to the council. The Mayor's long standing feud with Metropolitan Corporation and its Council members is no secret to Winnipegers . But he says when he looked at that -- I guess he meant the NDP's and the one communi st, he says, "sparks will fly, I see a barrel of trouble there" . Mr .

Speaker, he doesn't know the troubles he got until he sends the tax bill out , and this government of today they don't know what the problem is until they send the tax bill out . That's when they are going to bear from the people . Thank you . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak on the debate but I wonder whether I could pose one question to my honourable friend before I commence? Well Mr . Speaker, I don't know whether the House would permit me leave to • • • Would leave be granted to ask a question ? MR . SPEAKER: (Agreed) MR.

GREEN: I just wondered whether the Honourable member would accept the possi bility , and I have no authority to make it, but would he accept the possibility of Charleswood west of the perimeter being excluded from the Ci ty of Winnipeg ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR. MOUG: Mr. Speaker, I think that the Acting Mini ster of Urban Affairs if he was in his place would agree that I asked thi s last year.

Now that doesn't do away with all our problems enti rely, that still leaves , as I mentioned as I was reading out of that letter, there is two levels of it, there is one inside the perimeter, and there is one outside, and the one outside is the greater problem I think throughout the City of Winni peg, and that can be taken out of the City of Winnipeg I am sure that this will be a great asset.

918 April 12, 1972 MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Member far Inkster. MR. GREEN: I want to thank the honourable member firs t of all for his answer which I appreciate. Mr.

Speaker, in rising to speak concerning the budget, which again is something that I have done every year, and I wouldn't like to leave out this year at the risk of being con spicuous by my absence, I' m rather more recently upset by some of the remarks that have been made by the Honourable Member for Charleswood, because he referred to part of North Winnipeg in which I' ve resided for many years, the first . twenty-two years of my life� and then later on, -- and referred to a great war veteran turning over in his grave because a com munist happened to run in his constituency.

For the benefit of my honourable friends, the fact is that in North Winnipeg, whether he likes it or not, and whether I like it or not, the commu nists have been running for a long, long time. Communists have been elected; there is a sitting communist on the board, there. are people in North Winnipeg who, whether I agree wit h them or disagree with them, I regard as sincere Canadians, who vote that way. I would like my honourable friend to know that many of the people who vote that way, and did so knowingly, we nt to war, fought in the war to preserve the right, to do just what they are now doing.

And whether the honourable member or I agree with them, I think it is an insult to all of those people in my constituency, in North Winnipeg, who feel that they are playing a role in the democratic process, who don't happen to agree with the Honourable Member for Charleswood - and by the way, I think that given the choice of having to vote for the Honourable Member for Charleswood, and voting for a communist candidate, I wouldn't have any difficulty. I couldn' t go for the kind of thing that is being said by the Honourable Member for Charleswood, but nevertheless let me say, Mr.

Speaker, that these people have served on city council for many years, and probably, if you went back to 1945 the chances are that one in three that every person in north Winnipeg that you could run into could have voted for a communist candidate. Maybe he would be mis guided but some of them continued to vote in that way, and I think that they know what they are voting for. I, Mr. Speaker, have to give to each citizen of this country the credit for exercis ing his democratic choice, and I give him the credit for doing it knowingly, except in one con stituency, the constituency of Charleswood.

I just can' t believe that the people would knowingly vote to put that man into his seat for the kind of things that he has been saying. Mr . Speaker, the Honourable Member for Brandon made some remarks today which indicated that we were getting peas but probably the Honourable Minister thinks that there is enough corn around so he didn't distribute that. I would think that there is probably many who think that there is a lot of another kind of farm product around in this Asse mbly, which is distributed regularly, and has been distributed for the last fifteen minutes , and in that respect, Mr.

Chairman, I tried to deal with the matter as delicately as I can. I wish to relate a story that was told about Harry Truman, when Mr. Truman, who didn't have the most delicate of language, used to campaign, and at one of the very ritzy dinner parties that he had to attend, or Sunday afternoon garden party, he made a hard-hitting speech as Truman was known to do, and several times during his speech he used the term •m anure' because he was talking in a farm constituency, and the word •m anure' was something that they were quite acquainted with. And after it was over one of the ladies came up to Mr.

Truman and said to Mrs . Truman, and she said "Margaret that was a wonderful speech that Harry made; we all liked it very much, but if you don't mind my saying so, why don•t you tell your husband that he is a little bit harsh with his words, that instead of using the word 'm anure' you should teach him to use the word 'fertilizer' ." and Mrs. Truman answered: "Te ach him to use the word 'f ertilizer• ! Do you know how long it took me to teach him to use the word 'm anure'?" And, Mr . Speaker, so I have tried to deal with it as delicately as I can.

I want to start off my remarks by indicating that I believe that the Opposition is having quite a bit of difficulty finding something really wrong with their Finance Minis ter's Budget Address, and I can measure that every time I find the Opposition, instead of resorting to argu ments, resorting to the use of the last argument, well it may be good but it' s socialist. I think that the Member for Souris-Killarney, and yesterday the Member for Morris used the word socialism as if somehow stamping the program as good as it sounds , with the stamp of social ism would make it a bad sounding address.

And I am always, really, Mr. Speaker, apprecia tive of the opposition getting to that position because at that stage I realize that I learned some thing in the three years of Opposition that every time I made a speech which they oouldn't arunvil r, and every time I made a posit which really could not be refuted, every time I presented arguments that they didn' t want to argue against, I could tell what their response would be. It

April 12 , 1972 919 (MR. GREEN cont'd) ..... was one of socialism. I think I have related this before but it came out most strongly just before the last elec tion campaign when we said that if you took the Medicare and financed it by an income tax, it would cost roughly $28. 00 and if you took the same thing and filed it by premiums it will cost $120. 00, and the answer that I got from Mr. Evans or, as I recall it, was "Well that may be true, but it's socialism." Mr.

Speaker, with that kind of response, I tell you that Walter Weir made more socialists in the Province of Manitoba than any socialist speaker or any socialist leader of the New Democratic Party. If they take this budget, the essence of which was to take the burden of real property education tax, and take a good share of that off the people that couldn't afford to pay it, while at the same time leaving as much of it as is possible to be absorbed, which is everybody's ... by the people who can pay it, if they are going to take that concept and say that that is socialism, Mr.

Speaker, then I am afraid that again that the Conservative Party will be the ones who convert people to socialism. And just because, Mr.

Speaker, and I notice that the Member for Morris, and the Mem ber for Charleswood, and the Member for Souris-Killarney, and I see the Member for Minnedosa is not in his seat, but is in the House, that he said that he was going to want to hear debate which wasn't centered around sloganeering, which wasn' t centered around people calling each other's name, but I noticed that the Member for Morris, the Member for Souris, the Mem ber for Charleswood, have felt that they could handle us by somehow giving us bad names such as communists, and socialism, and the Member from Souris-Killarney says, what's the difference between communism and socialism, or one of them said it - it doesn't make any difference - and that became the level of the debate when they had nothing else to say.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to think that members on this side will not 'respond in kind. I would like to think that we will take our positions and make them strongly as we can. I know that we are all weak and sometimes we just don't stick to that, but I would like to think that we do. And when we do I don't want the honourable members to think that it is because we don't know how to do this type of thing, that if we wanted to use the language which that kind of language inspires, that we have it available to us .

I mean I have not used yet the term that the Opposition are filthy capitalist hyenas ; it's not because I don't know the terms exist. It' s just that I have not felt that that makes a contribution to the debate. If the honourable members don' t believe that I could refer to them as greedy blood-sucking facists, it's not because I don• t know the words . If I thought that that was of value in a debate, I would use it. But, Mr. Speaker, I just want to put this on record so that there is no misunderstanding on the opposite side of the House that somehow we don.'t.know the terms, that we don't know what to say.

If we want to indulge in what the Member for Charleswood is indulging in; if we thought it would be of value to us, we have the terms ; we know what the terms are, and we can use them . But, Mr. Speaker, we have refrained and I think that the honourable members on that side of the House can review four years of Hansard, or five years of Hansard, and they can see that I have deliberately refrained from challenging their position on the basis of some type of epitaphs, that I have tried to challenge theirpo sition on the basis --(Interjection)-- Pardon me - (Interjection)-- I quote, Sir. . . .

Well, okay, I'll get to the matters of interest. The fact is , Mr. Speaker, I hope that thal:isthekind of debate that honourable members will indulge in, and I really think that if they look really - look very hard, they will find proper areas of criticism within the budget which don't have to be identified with power htingry socialists, that there are other things that can be said which would probably do some credit to them, but that is not some of them. Well you have heard the Budget Speech, Mr.

Speaker, and if all that can come up with it out of it, is power-hungry socialists, I leave it to the public to decide, whether you - (Interjection)-- well and Mickey Mouse, -- and I know that the honourable member will not only be acquainted with Mickey Mouse but he will be acquainted with Popeye and Dick Tracy, and that is the only thing that he will be acquainted with, because when he gets the newspapers the only thing he is intelligent enough to read is the comic page, so he is well versed in . . . Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member has opened up a discussion which I, myself, want to deal with in the Budget Debate, and that is the question of the City of Winnipeg government, roughly, one year after that subject has been discussed in this Legislature.

And ii think that the first time that that subject was mentioned, it was mentioned by the Leader of the Opposition, who said, we are satisfied - and I want the Member for Charleswood to hear this - that we are satisfied and we are very happy, and I am paraphrasing, at the way in which the new city administration has been comfortably been able to take over their duties, have been comfortable able to fit into

920 April 12, 1972 (MR. GREEN cont•d) ..... the new administration, and are assiduously and energetically going now about their task of running the city, and in doing it in a business- like way, without any difficulty, without the kind of problems that he referred to, which he thinks were associated with the introduction of Aut opac. Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to say that when the new govern ment was conceived, and I was one of the people who had some role in that, that one of the most important things about the conception is that we were taking 13 administrations, Mr .

Speaker, and we were turning them into one administration, and we knew that the ultimate form that that administration would take was something that we couldn' t predict and would not want to predict.

What we did know is that if we attempted to in that bill dictate the kind of admini stration that was to come about, that it would have been an overwhelming task for the new city to switch from one administration to another, and so we very deliberately sald that the form of government that was created must have these attributes . 1) It must be capable of being ad ministered on the first day on which it comes into existence, and therefore we set it up so that it could take over very smoothly from the time that it didn' t exist to the day that it existed. And I would say that that has been succe ssful.

It also had as one of its attributes the fact that the people who are elected to the City Council had the capability of then having that administra tion suit their needs, and I know, Mr.

Speaker, because the Leader of the Opposition gave his wa rning, the Member for Charleswood now gives his warning, and I have had certain soundings from City Hall, and I don't think that this is an important element because what we assume, and I still think our assumption is correct, is that people elected from all over this City, once they got on to a city government would have the interests of the total city in mind, and there fore we did not mind the fact that they would be elected from areas which had been previously known as municipalities within the area.

We felt that no matter where one was elected from, he was, given time, going to have the total concept of a city government in mind. And we proceeded on that basis, and I believe that that was a correct basis . Now nothing ever works perfectly, and I have had soundings from the City of Winnipeg that some of the people who were elected, a number of them who opposed the bill violently when it was being brought before the Legislature, continue to oppose it, and want to continue to run their affairs exactly as they had run them before the city came into existence. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member shakes his head although he knows very well of what I speak, he knows very well that, Mr. Speaker, one of the first soundings was that the Chief Commiss ioner of Operations sent out a letter to employees of the City, and there was a politi cal reaction, Mr. Speaker, from some of the suburban councillors at the notion that the Chief of Operations thought that these people were within the employ of the City and that they didn't belong to the employement of the City, they belonged to the employment of the community committe e. Mr.

Speaker, other people have suggested, and I notice and I have respect for the former Mayor of Fort Garry, that the procedures are difficult, that the procedures are a problem. Mr. Speaker, there's nothing in that Act which would prevent the City Council from stream lining their own procedures, from cutting the number of committe es, from delegating works, anything that they want to do is wit hin the Act for them to do in terms of making the operation more efficient. But, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is not aware that for two reasons some of them don't want to do it.

First of all some of them want to comfortably continue the same type of administration that they had before until given due time they have an opportunity of changing. it; and secondly, some of them, Mr. Speaker, and not an important element, are deliberately wanting to make this thing not look good because, Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition has indicated, the Leader of the Opposition has indicated, wait till the tax bill.

The Member for Charleswood has indicated, wait till the tax bill; and many of the people who said that this was going to cost more money now sitting on that council would not be upset if that tax bill was a lot higher than it need be so that they could then blame the Provincial Gov ernment, Mr. Speak er. Now let me say, Mr. Speaker, let me say unequivocally that there is nothing wit hin that City administration that need cause costs to go any higher than they normally would have gone and that there is everything wit hin that plan which could make costs reduce. Well, Mr.

Speaker, the honourable members are shaking their heads . Let me say, Mr. Speaker, that again soundings from Ci ty Hall have indicated to me that some of the community committees have objected to their budget being reviewed by the Board of Commiss ioners. Now, Mr . Speaker, the City was to be one City, it was to be governed by a Board of Commiss ioners

April 12, 1972 (MR. GREEN cont'd) . consisting of a head commissioner and three other commis- 921 sioners. Some of the suburban people are suggesting that their budgets are not to be reviewed by the Board of Commiss ioners. In other words , although they have no responsibility of hav ing their citizens directly taxed, they could put whatever they want into that budget, and it's not to be reviewed at the top city level. Well, Mr .

Speaker, I'm not saying that this is a wide spread thing; I'm not saying that it's something that at this point I or we need be worried about, but I can make the same kind of warning that the Member for Charleswood makes, and that the Leader of the Opposition makes: if these people, or if anybody chooses to behave in that way, then let me say that the Provincial Government is in a position to protect the citizens of the City of Winnipeg in the Province of Manitoba, and if the form of representation, if the form of representation will not result in greater Winnipeg thinking, Mr.

Sp eaker, then I for one will suggest that that form of representation be changed. If the budget considerations are not directed to having the total city consider and rather than community committees being of the opinion that their budget can•t be touched, Mr. Speaker, then that, too, can be changed. And those changes will be made but they won'd be made, Mr. Speaker, on the part of any supposi tion on the part of these members of the House, nor will it be made because of any warnings that are issued by the Leader of the Opposition or the Member for Charleswood. All I'm saying, Mr.

Speaker, is that I have confidence that the elected representatives of the City of Winnipeg will in majority govern themselves in a responsible way; that it's the duty of the province if there is any attempt to less than vigorously use that City structure for the purpose and for the benefits which can be attributed to the Ci ty of Winnipeg, then the res ponsibility will lie, not with the Provincial Government but with those representatives, and then the Provincial Government, Mr.

Speaker, will have to do what it can and wh:lt it - not what it can but what is available to it, to protect the residents of Winnipeg from any kind of suggestion such as is made by the Member for Charleswood, or the Leader of the Opposition and, Mr. Speaker, I have no doubt that the Provincial Government will not hesitate to do so. Mr. Speaker, I want to address myself to certain remarks that have been made concern ing the Budget, and I will, Mr.

Speaker, deal rather briefly with the remarks of the Leader of the Opposition because I know that they want to be dealt with, that the Minister of Finance wants to be able to answer those questions himself, but I do makeoneobservationwith regard to his remarks, Mr. Speaker. I want the House to know that I myself have never been one who would advocate the concept of Keynesian budgetary deficit and, Mr. Speaker, I know that I'm in a minority because almost all of the provinc es of this country have gone for tbat type of program.

I notice that the Leader of the Opposition although he has criticism with almost everything else, he says, we will give you your $90 million deficit, which is what he calls it, so he makes no bones about the deficit. I have always been of the rather, if you will excuse the expression, conservative stripe, in that I believe as much money as possible (Interjection)-- yes, should be collected, as much of your spending as possible should be collected by current taxation. And therefore, Mr.

Speaker, one of the real problems that I had with the Budget has more or less, although I can' t accept his figures but if his figures are right, has more or less been to some extent relieved by the Leader of the Opposition because the Minister of Finance says that he's going to give out $28 million, that there' s a possible $28 million which can be expended, of which I think he said that about 19 million is going to be collected by a shift in taxes, that we're going to move from the education tax on property which people have com plained about, and we're going to relieve property owners, and we're going to pick up $19 million in the form of other taxation.

I don•t know if my figures are completely accurate but that' s in principle what he said. And, Mr. Speaker, I frankly was worried for the Minister of Finance, although I know that his department is not concerned because they have adopted the approach that the invest ment in the economy will result in the returns later on, but I have been worried a gread deal about picking up that difference of $13 million roughly, or $1 0 million, I can't remember - (Interjection)-- Yes . It's $14 million. Mr. Borowski, the Member for Thompson, says it's $14 million. And that has been one of my concerns .

Every budget has its concerns . This was one of my concerns. What the Leader of the Opposition has said is that it won't be $2 8 million, that although you will be giving the kind of relief that you have promised, which is the important thing, that the husband and wife living in a home in Winnipeg on a low income will be entitled to a maximum of $140 in real property tax relief, that it' s not going to cost $2 8 million. And the Leader of the Opposition says that the main flaw with the budget is that it

922 April 12 , 1972 (MR. GREEN cont'd) ..... won' t cost 28 million, it might cost 25 million or it might cost 24 million. Well, Mr. Speaker, if I could be assured, if I could be -- Mr. Speaker, if I could be assured, I think that the Minister of Fina nce has said that this is what it could cost - I don't know what it will cost, but frankly I will be happy, Mr. Speaker, I will be happy if the Leader of the Opposit ion is right, the Minister of Finance is wrong, although I don' t think that will happen because I'm going by past experience. But if it comes out that we could give that kind of relief, Mr.

Speaker, on the basis of $20 million r.ather than $2 8 million, as far as I'm con cerned the 'f reasurywill havefound $8 million which it needs , and it's true, it's true, the Minister of Finance will come back to the people of Manitoba and say, the relief which we gave you, and which we thought was needed, was apparently not needed because more people are better off than we thought they were, and that the amount will be $20 million, or $22 million, or $23 million, or $19 million. Mr. Speaker, that is not the question.

The question is what relief will be provided to the taxpayer who lives in a .house and is paying education taxes, and that has not been challeng ed by anybody in this House, because, Mr. Speaker, what the Minister of Finance says will be paid, will be paid. And, Mr. Speaker, if that is the Leader of the Opposition's main prob lem then I can assure him that maybe it might be a problem for the pronouncement that my honourable friend thinks the Minister of Finance wants to make but if not, it will not be a prob lem for me. I'm going to leave, Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition because I think that that was the main point that he made in his budget and I want to deal, Mr. Speaker, with somebody who but for the fact that there is a vacancy in this House, would probably be an irrelevant personality who I would not spend any time with at all. And that, Mr. Speaker, that person is the author of the address that was made by the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie, or the alleged document, excuse me. The alleged author of the address made by the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie yesterday. Now, Mr.

Speaker, when the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie finished his remarks he threw out -- and I can't remember the exact words -- he threw out some kind of a challenge that this speech was unanswerable -- I can•t really remember. And at the time I said that it was easy picking. Well, Mr. Speaker, perhaps I should have used the term that it's "Izz y" picking because it really is "Iz zy" picking. Mr.

Speaker, in the address that the honourable member made, one of the points that he gave some weight to -- and again I don't really fault my honourable friend for doing this be cause I don't think he would have done it, but one of the points that he made reference to was the fact that I had gone to - that we had caused, this government had caused me to go to Madagaskar at public expense to attend a French Cultural Conference, and what did this do for the mines in Manitoba. And I asked -- I informed the honourable member and, Mr. Speaker, if I didn' t think that the conference was of value I wouldn' t have gone.

I have no apology what soever that the public paid my bill to go to Madagaskar. If I was to apologize for afterwards I wouldn' t go in the first place. But the fact is that apparently later on in the day on television, knowing that this was incorrect the Leader of the Liberal Party persisted in saying that I had gone at public expense to Madagaskar for the purpose of participating in a French Cultural Conference. Well, Mr.

Speaker, first of all let me make it clear that that conference is a conference to which I was sent by the Federal Liberal Party, the Government of Canada; that the Govern ment of Canada in its wisdom -- and I happen to agree with them and I wonder whether the Leader of the Liberal Party disagrees with them -- feels that the French fact in this country does not only exist in the Province of Quebec; that the Province of Quebec had been es tablish ing on its own unilaterally relationships with other French countries.

The Government of Canada very much embarrassed by this got in touch with these countries and tried to demon strate to them that it is we who are the French country and not the Province of Quebec. It had asked those provinces which have a significant French fact or which consider that they have a significant French fact to participate with it in these conferences so that it could be shown at the International level that Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba and New Brunswick are of an equal nature in this country and that they all have an interest in the French fact. And given the fact, Mr.

Speaker, that we do have an interest in the French fact -- and I wonder whether that is true of the Leader of the Liberal Party, because you know they made that kind of mistake in the last election and they lost the Member for St. Boniface on that

April 12 , 1972 923 (MR. GREEN cont'd) ..... account -- whether the Leader of the Liberal Party now says that the Province of Manitoba under his premiership would pay no attention to the fact that we have a French fact in this country. And I want, Mr.

Speaker, to remind the members that I have never been an advocate of the French fact because it does something for the Frenchmen; I have been an advocate of the French fact because it does something for me -- because I have always said that I think that one of the greatest features of the Canadian national character is that we are not a homogenous country which we are all supposed to aspire to; that we are a country which because of our history is based on the mutual respect of one group to another. And that's why Mr.

Speaker, that's the reason why the Province of Manitoba participates in this type of conference and that's the reason, Mr. Speaker, that' s the reason that I have taken the trouble not merely of participating in this conference but have taken the trouble of trying to make myself fluent in both of the languages, the official languages of this country. Now I wonder what would the federal party be saying if its leader, Mr. Asper, had made himself bilingual and was attending the conference of this kind.

Wouldn' t they say: "L ook, look at our wonderful leader, he has gone to the trouble of learning the French language and he is able to represent Manitoba at a French-English conference. " Would that have been a shame for the Leader of the Liberal Party ? Would he have looked upon it as something to deride? Because, Mr. Speaker, that's the kind of a point that he's making. And I want him-- (Mr. Green spoke in French here) I want him to do it. I want him to say that he would not be involved in this kind of what he thinks is foolishness.

And I want him to go all across Manitoba including the coru/tituencies where there are Ukranian people which benefit by this thing; where there are Jewish people; where there are French people and where there are English people and tell them all of these things . Because that' s what he seeks to introduce is some kind of criticism of this govern ment. And, Mr.

Speaker, you know the Leader of the Liberal Party -- I repeat it would al most be irrelevant if there were not a seat open at this time then possibly I wouldn't pay so much attention to it -- when he has had problems in criticizing the government he has tended to rely on the fact that his superior legal knowledge shows that we are making a legal mistake and he makes these pronouncements, Mr. Speaker, he makes these legal pronouncements as if only he knows and everybody else doesn't know. When I hear his pronouncements, Mr ..

Speaker, on legal questions I wonder at how he can make them knowing that the highest judges in the court of the land sometimes come out on a judgment five to four, that it can go to three courts where you get differenct decisions each time. But he comes out .with a pronouncement not as a person who is giving an opinion but, Mr. Speaker, he comes out with the pronounce ment as the Wizard of "Iz" . And what has the wiza rd, Mr. Speaker, what have been these great legal pronouncements of the Wizard of Iz . His first legal pronouncement that I can re call had to do, Mr.

Speaker -- let's go before his time, that whenever there is a problem, you know, Medicare was illegal, Autopac -- even Autopac was illegal. And then, Mr. Speaker, we had from the Wizard of Iz on Lake Winnipeg regulation we issued a booklet in dicating everything that had to do with this program. He got the booklet in the morning; in the afternoon he said the licence is meaningless, it 's defective, it' s illegal.

The licence says that the lake has to be held between 711 and 715 and the Hydro grant shows that over a 30-year period, on one occasion it' s going to go to 715. 5 and the licence is defective and has to be corrected. That was his first legal pronouncement, Mr. Speaker.

Well on the basis of that legal pronouncement there hasn't been a legal licence issu ed in the Province of Manitoba for anything to do with regulation because no licence to regulate, and I've said it before, can guarantee the fact that if the water comes in such torrents as came during Noah• s time or if it comes in torrents which would have raised the level beyond 718 or 719 feet then we will not be able to keep it between 715 feet, and the licence doesn' t say so. So, Mr. Speaker, on that legal pronouncement he was wrong. His next legal hook that he grabbed for, Mr. Speaker, was a

section of The Water Power Act which has been referred to by the Member for Riel during this session. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please. The honourable member has five minutes. MR. GREEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That section, Mr. Speaker, says that -- and I refer to

Section 7 -- says that no licence -- and I' m paraphrasing -- shall be issued

924 April 12, 1972 (MR. GREEN cont•d) ..... without the ratification of the Legislature where it involves water power beyond 25, 000 continuous horsepower. And the Wizard of Iz immediately made a legal pronouncement that the licence to regulate Lake Winnipeg is illegal. He neglected to look, Mr. Speaker, at a

section in the Hydro Act which says that despite that particular sec tion a licence could be issued in accordance with the regulations, Mr. Speaker. And I am informed or was informed that there hasn' t been a single instance in the Province of Manitoba other than for private companies where ratification of a licence has been necessary, so the Wizard of Iz said not only that this licence was defective but all of the licences that have been granted to Manitoba Hydro have been defective sine the day that we started. Now what was, Mr. Speaker, 'the next legal pronouncement.

The next legal pronounce ment made by this wizard was to the effect that although the government had advice from its lawyer that its loan to Tantalum Mines was protected by concentrate as a first charge and was limited to the amount of the loan of $900 ,0 00 the Wizard of Iz pronounces to the people of Manitoba that we are on the hook for

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-4-37
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 4th hansardpdf 37.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	3048b8e417331ac6f49e0973d8ded2ec1d5d8b12

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