Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 58 (34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

34-2-58

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, October 26, 1989. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report of Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs for 1988-89, and the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for the 1989-90 Estimates. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Meat Packing Industry Inter-Provincial Trade Mr.

Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): In days gone by, Winnipeg was frequently referred to as the Chicago of the North and that of course was due to the fact that Chicago was the centre of the meat packing industry in the United States, and Winnipeg had that distinction in western Canada. Unfortunately, those days appear to have gone forever.

We have seen the demise of Canada Packers and Swift's, now we know that the Springhill plant in Neepawa is in trouble , and of course today we hear that East-West Packers and Burns are either using layoffs or job sharing in order to try and remain viable because of the lack of slaughter cattle in Manitoba. My question is to the Minister of Agriculture . Can he indicate to us just how many feeder calves or weanling calves have left this province in the falls of 1987 and 1988, and does he anticipate that trend continuing this fall? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr.

Speaker, in Manitoba we have in excess of 300,000 cows producing in the vicinity of 270,000 calves each fall . In the fall of '87 there would have been in excess of 100,000 calves left the province for finishing. Last fall it would have been 150,000 to 160,000. I am approximating the figures.

This fall, because of desires on our part to level the playing field by joining tripartite and putting the Livestock Development Program in place, we hope that we have stemmed the flow of feeder cattle out of this province in terms of the level playing field concept, but I cannot give him an honest answer as to whether there will be less calves leaving this fall or more, because the fall sales are ongoing right now.

The level playing field does exist for the feedlot operator, in terms of going out to buy calves, put them in his feedlot and finish them in this province, and much appreciated. 2238 Livestock Industry Provincial Subsidization Levels Mr. Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): I have a further question to the same Minister. Can the Minister today tell us what the comparable levels of subsidization are for feeders of cattle in the three western provinces? Is that level playing field actually there or are Alberta feeders getting much more subsidy than those in Manitoba? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr.

Speaker, there is a level playing field in the concept that ~here is tripartite in all three provinces, the same level of support, identical level of support in the three prairie provinces . The Livestock Development Program we have here is $9 a ton paid here, $10 a ton in Alberta, so basically they are the same. Saskatchewan is $13 a ton, but that basically is a freight difference to Thunder Bay, so there . is a level playing field in that concept. So in terms of the major programs in place in the three prairie provinces, there is a level playing field. *

(1335) Cargill Foods Limited Inter-Provincial Trade Mr. Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, can the Minister tell us whether in fact Cargill is purchasing slaughter cattle in Manitoba and taking them through to the Alberta plant and, if that it the case, is this part of a policy that is being developed to have better interprovincial relationships and better policy as far as trade between provinces is concerned? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr.

Speaker, over the course of this summer there has been a lot of cattle move out of the province for slaughter, some east, a lot south, and I am not aware of any amount going to the West. The reason they were leaving the province is because the producer who is selling the animals is going to sell them to the highest bidder, and fortunately or unfortunately-I guess fortunately on the farmers' side-there was a higher bidder that · came into the province from the east or the south .

I have always contended that the farmer has to get the highest possible return he can get from the marketplace , and that is what he is getting. Red Meat Stabilization Program Impact Manitoba Mr. Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): I have a new question, Mr. Speaker . It was just a matter of a few weeks ago that the Minister got up in the House and, with a fair amount of satisfaction on his part, indicated that a new national tripartite Red Meat Stabilization Program had been signed . Can the Minister tell us when he anticipates

Thursday, October 26, 1989 us seeing that tripartite agreement has actually had a beneficia_l effect as far as the meat packing industry . in this province is concerned? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, the tripartite plan is to stabilize the beef producer , whether it is a cow-calf operator or whether it is a feedlot operator . That is what the program is set to do. It does create in t_he long term, and hopefully in the intermediate term, a more stable supply of production in this province which will then be available to the packer or processor to bid on.

Meat Packing Industry Initiatives Mr. Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, the Minister has indicated that the tripartite is going to be beneficial to producers. My supplementary question then is: what initiative is the Minister about to take to try and re-establish the value-added component or portion of the meat industry to Manitoba, or is the Minister satisfied in having us be the provider of raw materials, which essentially the calves are, for this value added component to take place in other provinces? Hon. Glen ·Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr.

Speaker, I have detailed already to the Member the desires that we have brought forward, the initiatives that we have put in place to work with the producer, and there is a serious problem at the processing level, there is no question The subsidization programs in the processing sector that have gone into the Province of Alberta are of serious concern to us. fhe Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Ernst) and I have been in discussion with a number of the processing plants trying to work on this .

We have set up the Red Meat Forum, which is producers plus processors talking and working on potential solutions for the difficult times that the meat processing people are facing right now. Springhill Farms Limited Closure Mr. Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, just to elaborate today as to exactly what the status of the Springhill plant is, will that plant operate in 1990 or are we faced with a complete shutdown of the Springhill plant before the end of this year? Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): What will happen to Springhill is going to be a decision by the shareholders of the Springhill plant, which are the Hutterite Colonies of the Province of Manitoba. My department and Industry, Trade and Tourism have staff assisting them where and when possible in the process of trying to find some capital to invest in a partnership or in an outright purchase. It is my understanding that they have a person who is acting as a negotiator on their behalf to identify somebody with capital to come in and support the plant .

That process is ongoing and I could not answer whether they will be open next year or not. It is our desire to find a mechanism to be able to keep them open to the best of our ability . Land Development Legislation Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ducharme) .

Last night in elections in this civic centre of Winnipeg , what has been characterized as a major defeat of many Members of the Gang of 18 or 19, the Liberal-Conservative coalition took place , and there was a vote to return councillors to our Chamber who were anti-development for development's sake going to stand up on behalf of the people of Winnipeg in terms of a balance between development and human priorities in our city rather than just following the developer's bulldozer as has been the practice in the past. *

(1340) My question is to the Minister of Urban Affair s (Mr. Ducharme) . Given the fact that citizens need rights under the Act, and given the fact that the Minister has tabled two Bills in the House dealing with some needed reforms that were consistent with our White Paper that we produced in 1987, why has not the Minister come forward with proposals and legislation dealing with land use and development , dealing with suburban sprawl and the whole issue of Plan Winnipeg and its impiications in the future? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): First of all, Mr.

Speaker, I guess the first question to the Member, the previous Urban Affairs Minister, is: why did he not? However, we have proposed very strong legislation. This particular Government has been very consistent in its requests to the City of Winnipeg in regard to the urban limit llne. We have stayed very close to policy on that. We have also instructed the City of Winnipeg just recently in a letter that we would like the urban limit line to · be looked at, and also the whole Plan Winnipeg with the regional areas to be dealt with.

The Member should be quite aware that he knows the work that has gone into the legislation that has been put forward in this House in this Session, and he also has the

schedule that we are dealing with, the planning and the requests and the dialogue that is necessary to deal with all planning throughout the City of Winnipeg and the outlying areas in the near future. Suburban Sprawl Legislation Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, we did have a White Paper and legislation drafted, some of which the Minister has tabled in this Chamber, dealing with the appointments by the mayor to EPC and dealing with the Ombudsman and some other electoral reforms .

My question to the Minister is: a year ago when we asked you the same questions about suburban sprawl and the need for change of The City of Winnipeg Act to deal with the social and operational costs of suburban sprawl in the City of Winnipeg, you stated that I would 2239

Thursday, October 26, 1989 bring the changes to the Session and legislature in the next Session. That was November 1, 1988, Mr. Speaker . Is the Minister not willing to put more controls and provide more rights to citizens in terms of the planning of their own city in terms of legislation? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, the results of the additional zones not working, the results of the planning not working , was not due because of this administration. It was because the legislations they put in place did not work for the City of Winnipeg .

Minister indicated in a news release yesterday that she had been planning adjustments in her department for six months . I am pleased to hear that such intensive work has gone on in that department, and I look forward to some comprehensive answers about the revised structure. An Agency Relations

section did exist a number of years ago. That

section was amalgamated with Programs Branch, because to have two separate sections - Mr. Speaker: Would the Honourable Member kindly put her question now, please? •

(1345) Mr. Doer: I would agree with the Minister . In the White Paper it clearly states that we need new laws . We need new laws to deal with the problem of suburban sprawl outside of the City of Winnipeg and new laws to give the citizens rights within the City of Winnipeg . Those laws were drafted, Mr. Speaker . Why has the Minister not brought forward those laws to deal with suburban sprawl? Why will he not take on the developers in the City of Winnipeg, as the public has suggested last night ~ in their electoral results? Ms.

Gray: Can the Minister tell us why a decision was made to step back in time and ~ecreate a separate Agency Relations when it has already been proven that was very inefficient and confusing for the community agencies and groups? ,I},) Mr. Ducharme: Exactly what the Member has suggested. The regional committee that has been set up by this administration right after these elections are finished to deal with the outlying areas, the same regional people that we are dealing with said to us just this spring , we were not consulted by the previous Government .

We said we will consult and will bring in proper planning to deal with the City of Winnipeg and the outlying areas . Urban Planning Legislation Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): The Minister knows full well there was full consultation. The Minister knows full well there was a public document dealing with all aspects of urban planning, not just cherry-picking one item and cherry-picking another item .

My question to the Minister is: why has he not brought in any planning legislation as he promised a year ago , and why has he not brought in any legislation to deal with the waterways of Winnipeg and any authority that is necessary in that regard? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I just answered the question to the Member who was the previous Minister . I met with the regional people who are surrounding the City of Winnipeg .

If you do not deal with the surrounding regional committee and you do not consult with them, which that particular Government did not do, that was the message that we got from the regional people surrounding it. This particular Minister on the other side, when he was Minister, did not deal with it. Family Services Agency Relations Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): Mr. Speaker , my question is for the Minister of Family Services (Mrs . Oleson) : The Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, among others, there are two reasons why that Agency Relations Branch is being put into my department.

One was the review that was done of the department by an outside consulting firm which indicated that was essential for the department in its dealings with the agencies, because our department deals with so many agencies. Another reason was that many agencies have indicated to me that they would really like to see that part of the department again, perhaps not exactly the same as it was before , but they need an agency to deal with to help them with their budgeting problems . Community Service Organizations Division Negotiations Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): Mr.

Speaker, I have a supplementary question to the same Minister. That particular review that was done was simply a financial audit, as the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) admitted. It did not deal with the programs and services to the people. My question to the Minister is: will the community agencies, such as Skills and the child and family services agencies and others serving the people, have to negotiate with the social services division for their program support, and the other financial division for their financial support? Will they have to negotiate with two separate divisions? Hon.

Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): This agency is set up to work in all aspects with the agencies to help them manage better financially and manage their programs better, and if there is better management in place to manage financially, what follows, and should follow, is better service to people . 2240

Thursday, October 26, 1989 Mentally Handicapped Day Program Spaces Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary to the same Minister . The news release also speaks to an increased emphasis on support for integrating the disabled into the community . My ques tion to the Minister is: will the Minis ter be specific, will this increased emphasis result in more day programs for the mentally handicapped who are now sitting at home and are not being integrated into the community? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): As the name of the

section of the department implies, it will work with the handicapped in Manitoba and work with them in the community to make their lives better , to enhance all the programs that we have. Family Services Associate Deputy Minister Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Memb er for Ellice, with a new question . Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): I have a new question to the same Minister . That previous answer "work with" is lip-service, but we do not get results . It is highly unusual for a depar tment to have an Associate Deputy Minister , not an Assistant Deputy Minister , head up a division .

This Associate Deputy Minister gets paid $80 ,000 a year, and an Assistant Deputy Ministe r gets paid approximately $68,000 a year. Now , the other three divisions in this department are head - Mr. Speaker: Order. Would the Honourable Member kindly put her question now, please? Ms. Gray: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Family Services tell us the rationale for having an Associate Deputy Minister head up one of her divisions? An Honourable Member: Have you not read the auditor's reports of the last couple of years? Ms. Gray: Lousy audit, by the way. ***** Mr.

Speaker: The Honourable Acting Government House Leader , on a point of order . Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): On a point of order , I ask you to give the House some direction here, because an Honourable Member of this House has been very crit ical of a servant of this Legislature , namely the Auditor, when I think I heard the Membe r call something a lousy audit when we were referring to the Provinc ial Auditor . I seek your direction , Mr. Speaker. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order . The Honourable Opposition House Leader, on the same ·point of order. Mr.

Reg Alcock (Opposition House Leader): On the same point of order , Mr. Speaker , the Member was referring to that Minister 's untendered contract to an external auditor, and it was not worth what he paid for it. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, order . The Honourable Acting Government House Leader, on that same point of order . Mr. Manness: This is a very serious matter. Certainl y Members on this side did not take that interpretatio n from the Member for Ellice (Ms .

Gray), and I would ask that she stand and clarify it and certa inly withdraw any cri tici sm of the Provincial Aud itor. * (135 0) Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Member for Ellice. Ms. Gray: On the same point of order , Mr. Speaker , I believe my House Leader said exactly what the facts were - Some Honourable Members : Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

On the point of order raised by the Acting Honourable Government House Leader, we would like to indicate that the Honourable Member for Ellice was not making a personal charge against a high ranking official, it was against the audit itself . Therefore, there is no point of order . ***** Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Minister of Family Services , to finish her answer. Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

No matter which audit the Member is discussing, the independent audit from an outside consulting firm or the Provincial Auditor consistently said that the Community Ser vices

section of my department had problems in accountability and in procedures, and for that very good reason we have put in place some more controls, more accountability , so that the funds that were being allocated for services to people can be better used in giving services to people . Mary Humphrey Removal Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): Mr. Speaker , can the Minister tell us if Mary Humphrey will continue to be the director of Child Day Care? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, no, Mary Humphrey will not be the director of the child care part of the department.

Thursday, October 26, 1989 Family Services Day Care Director Replacement Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): Mr. Speaker, with a final supplementary to the same Minister, I know of at least one individual who was offered Mary's job earlier this year. Will the Minister indicate to us how many other individuals outside the Civil Service is she currently looking at to replace Mary Humphrey? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker , I do not make a practice of discussing kvery personnel matter in the House, and I think that is poor taste on the part of the Member for trying to do so.

Churchill Rocket Range Repair Funding Mr. Elijah Harper (Rupertsland): My quest ion is to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology . My question is regarding the Churchill rock et range. Many Manitobans were excited today with the report that a joint Soviet and U.S. venture is considering using the Churchill rocket range in 1991 to launch civilian satellites on the civilian version of the SS-20 . The Churchill range is slated for bulldozing by the federal Government in 1992 at a cost of some $50 million.

Has the Minister obtained a commitment from his Cabinet colleagues to fund repairs to the facility this year? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speake r, first let me say that the Government of Manitoba is committed to the community of Chur chill. We are committed to that community and for that very reason employed Mr. Spi ece to produce a report on the commu nity of Chur chill and on the potenti al for use of the Chur chill rocket range. The Government has adopted that report.

It is working very dili gently at this time to attempt to find users and to attempt to fin d a partner in the Canadian Space Agency. Marketing Plans Mr. Elijah Harper (Rupertsland): Mr. Spea ker, what marketing plans has the Govern ment started to take advanta ge of the projecte d massi ve growt h in the aerospace industry over the next 5 years, since rockets laun ched from there could be used to study communicat ions , meteorology , navigation, earth monitoring and survei llance, micro-gravity processing and atmosphere research . Will the Governmen t demand that dismantling of the base be halted immedi ately?

Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, the Government took that action six months ago. * (13 55) 2242 Western Diversification Funding Mr. Elijah Harper (Rupertsland): Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question : has the Governmen t made a formal request for the range to be considered for funding under the Western Diversificatio n Program , so that the firm such as Hughes Aircraft, countries like Japan , West Germany and many others will tak e advantage of the best sate llite launching site in the Western World? Hon.

Jim Ernst (Ministe r of Industry, Trade and Toruism): Unfortunately I did not hear the Honourable Member because of certain noise in the Chamber and perhaps the Honourable Member could repeat his question. Mr. Harper: Has the Government made a formal request for the Western Diversifica tio n Program to be funding the rocket range so that the firms at Hughes Air craf t, countries like Japan , West Germany and many others will take advantage of the best satellite launching site in the Western World? Mr. Ernst: Mr.

Speaker , any rejuve nation of the Church ill rocket range require s as a partner, the Canad ian Space Agency . We are having discuss ions with that agency at the present time to determine (

a) their level of participation and (

b) how they can assist us throu gh the Manitoba Aerospace Technology Program in bringing work and rocket launches to that particular locati on. We are workin g very diligently with them. We are also out on our own, as identified by the Member, attempting to find and solicit customers for use of the Churchill rocket range. Infill Housing Program Statistics Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): My question is for the Minister of Housin g (Mr. Ducharme) . Tories are Tories, whether it is thi s Government or the Government in Ottawa . They both have no commitment to low incom e housing. Given , Mr.

Speaker , the Co-op HomeStart Program has been cut, the Co-op Index Link Mortgage Program has been cut , t he RAAP Program for landlords has been cut, the Residential Rehab Program has backlogged, the Crit ical Home Repair Program has been replaced, the Shelter Allowance for Seniors has been -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order. Is there a question here? Mr. Lamoureux: Yes, Mr. Speaker , it does not end there, among other things. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, order . Mr. Lamoureux: Tell us today, how many infill houses have been built since this Government has taken office? Hon.

Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, to the Member, I repeat again. He has asked

Th.ursday, October 26, 1989 three or four or five or six different questions. I would suggest to the Member that when we sit down at the Estimates in Housing, we will deal with the $55 millio n spent this year to accommodate 800 units of non-prof it housing, and I will answer his questions on eve ry other

article he has at the Estimates level. That is the idea of the Estimates . I wish the Member would learn what the procedures are in this House. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, this Minister never ceases to amaze me. I am beginning to believe he does not have the answers with him. I would like to tell him about a constituent of mine regarding infill housing . He has been renting and waiting for the past two years with the hope of being able to move in- Mr. Speaker: And the question is? Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Speaker , my question is: can he expect to be given an opportunity to move in, and how many others are in the same type of situation as this particular constituent of mine? Mr. Ducharme: Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate that the Member for Inkster was not at the Weston group meet ing a couple of months ago when I sat down with them and went over the plan with the infill housing . At the time of Estimates, I will explain to him what we discussed at that particular meeting . Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , order . Mr. Lamoureux: Both questions have not been answered. Maybe I will answer them .

Zero infill houses have been built. There are over 500 people on a waiting list. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please . Federal Minister's Involvement Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker , will the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ducharme) meet with his federal counterpart , sit down with his Cabinet colleagues and start standing up for low-income housing in the Province of Manitoba? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Housing) : Mr.

Speaker, there is almost 55 million in new units , $80 million in the total budget, but I would advise the Member that I will explain to him the co-operation between his area , Weston-and the Ciiy of Winnipeg is gathering those lots for the infill housing . If he wants to go back and ask his people-and maybe he should go back and do his homework in his own area of Weston where this infill housing is being done . •

(1400) Lynn Lake, Manitoba Minister's Meeting Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): Mr. Speaker, yesterday I asked the Mini ster to com ment on the status of negotiations betwe en the Government , Lynngold and other affected parties with respect to the closure of the Lynn Lake mining and milling operations owned by Lynngold . At that time he indicated that there was no new news . Subsequent to that , I understand he has arranged for meetings to be held between himself and several other Minist ers tomorrow afternoon in Lynn ' Lake. I would ask the Minister what the purpose of those meetings will be. Hon.

Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Speaker, we are going to Lynn Lake tomorrow to update the community on the status of the mine operations . Mr. Cowan: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister, does he have new information that he is not making available to this House with respect to those negotiations before he goes to the community, which I think would be a violation of our privileges as Members , or is he going up there, as was indicated by some individuals , to advise the comm unity how the community will be shut down in an orderly fashion if the negot iations fall through? Mr.

Neufeld: I will stand by my first answer, Mr. Speaker. We are going up there to update the community on the operations at Lynn Lake. Mr. Cowan: Mr. Speaker , I will ask the question point blank because the Minister has been notorious for not providing direct answers . I would hope that he would provide a direct answer to this question because I can tell you the community is quite concerned, given recent events. The morale is very, very low in the community and his silence, his reluctance and his hesitance to provide answers is contributing to a disastrous situation . The First Minister (Mr.

Filmon) says something about second-hand information . What I am trying to get , Mr. Speaker, is first-hand information from the Government. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. The Honourable Member for Churchill , kindly put his question now, please . Mr. Cowan: My direct question to the Minister is: is the Minister going to be advising the community, as has been indicated by some , on the procedures that will be put in place tp ,assure an orderly closure of the community if in fact the negotiations fail? Mr. Neufeld: Mr.

Speake r, I have been more than forthright, I have been more than open with the community and I believe with the Member for Churchil l. I cannot answer a hypothetical question on what I would do if the mine were to close . The question was what would I do if the mine closed? That is very hypothetical and I cannot answer that question.

Thursday, October 26, 1989 Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , please; order , please. The Honourable Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) and the Honourable Member for Churchill (Mr. Cow an), if you wish to carry on this conversation, you can do so outside the Chamber , please. Northern Training Office Job Protection Mr. Bob Rose (St. Vital): Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Minister of Education and Training (Mr. Derkach).

At the time of the Northe rn Training Employment Agency tak eover there were approximately 106 staff at the Keewatin Community College and only six of these were abor ig inal. Moreover, Tony Lucier , the president , was the only one in administration in that organization, yet according to the Thompson employees there have been no jobs offered in The Pas to people who are on the Northern Training management staff who were indeed Native. Tony Lucier has stated that he is not able to do so because NTA was a Crown corporation and therefo re its employee s are not civ il servants. Mr.

Speaker, I ask the Minister , why did Keewatin Community College offer Northern Training Employmen t Agency people positions that were only demotion s? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, once again we enter into the same topic that the Member brough t forth yesterday, and once again his informati on is incorr ect and his allega tions are false . First of all, Mr. Speaker , the people from the Northern Training Employment Agency have all been offered positi ons or their term positions have been extended beyond the time when they were supposed to be terminated.

In addition, we in the Department of Educ ation and the Nor thern Training Employment Agency under KCC have ind icated that we will do everything we can to ensure that these people are going to be given permanent positions in the future . Now it is perhaps premature to say whether all of them can be accommodated , but certainly we will attempt to do whatever it is we can to ensure that those people can be put on full-time employment rather than term employment as they have in the past few years . Staffing Mr. Bob Rose (St. Vital): Mr. Speaker, this is to the same Minister.

Will the Minister then explain why, for the very first time , a non-Native just recently has been awarded a job as a security worker in the Polaris Buildings at the Northern Training Agency in Thompson? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker , I have to indicate to the Member opposite that we are committed to affirmative action, but I do not interfere in the selection of staff when that selection process takes place.

There is an appropriate way to deal with that and we acknowledge and respect the hiring process and the selection process that is in place, but the affirmativ e act ion plan is in place and we are proceeding along those lines. Mr. Rose: To the same Minister, it was a job filled with no competition even though over 20 Natives , qualified for the job and trai ned up there, were available. Will the Minister guarantee jobs for manage rs of Native ancestry at the North ern Training Agency as he has already said in this House he will do for the instructors of Native desc ent. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Speaker, I have to tell the Member opposite that in fact this Government is not going to interfere in any hiring process when it comes to positions such as the Member has just brought forth. In fact, there is a proper procedure to follow and we will follow it. We are committed to affirmative act ion. Mr. Speaker, I can tell you that the Member 's information is incorrect in many ways . We have many individuals who are of Native ancestry who are in fact teaching or are in administrative roles in the North. I can get the specific numbers for that Member but I cannot do it right at this moment.

Manitoba Public Insurance Corp. General Insurance Division Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I have a question for the Minister responsible for The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. On November 1, 1988, the committee on Public Utilities passed a motion requesting the provincial Government to study available options besides selling the General Insurance Division of MPIC with particular attention to the interests of Manitobans who may not otherwise be able to obtain this kind of insurance .

Has the study been completed and when will the Minister be prepared to table a copy of the report for Members of this House? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister responsible for The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): Mr. Speaker , that report will be made available when we appear in committee. Mr. Leonard Evans: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker . We look forward to seeing the report in the committee although it would be useful to have it prior to the committee meeting .

In view of the significant improvement in the General Insurance Division , including the personal and commercial lines, for the nine months ending July 31, 1989, where all lines are showing a profit, is the Minister now prepared to reverse the Government's policy determination to sell the General Insurance Division of MPIC? Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that the Member for Brandon would not want to be accused of blending all of the figures on the General Insurance Branch to come up with the fact that arm of the 2244

Thursday, October 26, 1989 insurance company has been showing better returns of late. The personal and commercial lines need to be separated to indicate the true performance of the operation . You know that , Len. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker , what we know is the information that has been given to us and it show s both the personal and commercial lines in a profitable position from the information we have.

I would like to ask the Minister , is the Government in the process now of discussing or negotiatin g the sale of the General Insurance Division of MPIC with the private sector, whether it be Canadian Northern Shield , Laurentian Pacific , Sovereign General or a company in Saskatchewan or whoever . Can he come clean and tell us whether or not they are now discuss ing or negotiating the sale? Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker , it is obvious that the Member for Brandon is on a fishing expedition . In th is particular case he did not catch anything . Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , order. *

(1410) Labour Skills Training Initiatives Mr. Herold Driedger (Niakwa): I have a question for the Ministe r of Education and Training (Mr. Derkach). Statistics Canada states that manufacturing activity in the country is being impeded by the lack of a skilled labour force. There are already predict ions that we will have a skilled labour shortage by the 1990s. Now this will impact negatively on northern Manitoba where there is already a lack of a skilled labour pool.

Given that there will be major hydro-electric construction projects in other parts of the country which will drive up the cost and the availability of skilled labour, what is his department doing to prepare our own labour force so that it will be able to participate in Manitoba Hydro's next big project when it is announced . Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, I do not have any knowledge at this particular time of a new Hydro development project that has been announced or is going to be announced imminently, but I can tell you that we have done several things to be ready for anything that should occur in terms of new industry coming into Manitoba , because this is a Government that is open for business . We have to ensure that we have a skilled labour force in this province. We have changed the structure of the Northern Training Employment Agency so that in fact the agency can respond better to the needs in northern Manitoba .

We have implemented a skills advisory board which is going to advise the Minister and this Governmen t in terms of what the needs are out there in provic;ling programming for people who may need to have· tha t training :delivered to them . In fact , Mr. Speaker , there are many initiatives that are now in place to ensure that we are ready to respond. We are looking at college governance as another example to ensure that our community colleges are going to be more flexible and able to respond to the needs when the y aris e. Northe rn Training Office Cutbacks Mr.

Herold Driedger (Niakwa): A further question for the Minister of Education and Training, what assurances , given that answer, can the Minister provide this House that the Northern Training Employm ent Agency program that is now under the guise of Keewatin Communit y College will not be cut back now when it is particularl y important to deve lop a sk illed labour force in northern Manitoba for northern Native Manitobans? Hon.

Leonard Derkach (Minister of Educatio n and Training): In fact we want to ensure that we can provide more and proper training for Northerners by restr ucturing the Northern Training Employment Agency. Previously, Mr. Speaker , the Northern Tra ining Employment Agency was administered out of the city and conse quently there were many adm inistra tive costs associated with that.

We have moved that administration to northern Manitoba and we are going to rechanne l those dollars that were spen t on administration into programming where in fact northern Manitobans can take advantage of the programming and then put it to work for themselves . Mandate Mr. Herold Driedger (Niakwa): How can Keewatin Community College fulfill the mandate of the Northern Training Employment Agency since it has not been able to turn out graduates at the journeyman level in the 25 years it has been in existenc e? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Educatio n and Training): Mr.

Speaker, the Member is now being critical of what Keewatin Community College has done in northern Manitoba . I should ask the Member perhaps to check with some of the industries that use graduates from Keewatin Community College and the Northern Training Employment Agency in northern Manitoba, and he will find that in fact the Keewatin Community College and the Northern Training Employment Agenc y are respected very highly in northern Manitoba and the quality of people that they put out to fill the many jobs that are available in northern Manitoba. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has exp ired.

NON-POLITICAL STATEMENTS Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member for The Pas have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for The Pas. Mr. Harry Harapiak (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, because of my involvement with·the disabled community because 2245

Thursday, October 26, 1989 of my autistic son, I would like to acknowledge an award the Manitoba Society of Occupational Therapists gives an annual basis. This award is in recognition of individuals making a significant contribution to Members of the disabled community. The Citation Award is given during National Occupational Therapy Week, and this year's Citation Award winners will be honoured tonight over the course of an evening's festivities at St. Boniface Hospital Research Centre. This year's award winners are Mr.

Henry Enns who is well known for his work in the disabled community, and the other is you, Sir, our Speaker. You have distinguished yourself with the sponsoring of the Speaker's Forum for this community. Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): May I have leave to make a non-political statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member for Ellice have leave? The Honourable Member for Ellice. Ms. Gray: Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House certainly join with the Member from The Pas (Mr. Harapiak) in honouring you, Sir, and Mr. Henry Enns who will be the recipients of the Citation Awards this evening .

I have had the opportunity of being at the Citation Awards last year, and I will have the opportunity of attending again this year. I think it is very, very important that we make it known, and certainly the Society for Manito bans with Disabilities has done an excellent job, and also the occupational therapists do an excellent job in promoting and making aware to the people of Manitoba the needs of the disabled. It is individuals such as yourself, Mr. Speaker , and Mr. Enns who also contribute very much to that and we certainly congratulate you on behalf of this side of the House. Hon.

Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): May I have leave also to make a non-political statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Minister have leave? The Honourable Minister of Family Services . Mrs. Oleson: Thank you , Mr. Speaker , and thank you to the Members of the House. I would like to associate myself with the Member for The Pas (Mr. Harapiak) and the Member for Ell ice (Ms . Gray) with their remarks on these awards, and to congratulate you, Mr. Speaker .

I understand that part of the reason for the award to you was the very successful conference which you hosted giving a vehicle for disabled persons to come forward and state some of the problems that they encounter in everyday life in this province , and to better help people who provide service for those people to understand their needs and their aspirations for the future . I also of course would congratulate Mr. Enns whom I have met at a meeting with him in my office to discus s some very pertinent topics to do with his work. I enjoyed meeting him and I do congratulate him also. Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St.

Johns) : Could I have leave as well to make a non-political statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have leave? The Honourable Member for St. Johns. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Mr. Speaker, it is with a great deal of pride and humility that I rise in the House today to congratulate a constituent of mine, Winnipeg violinist Victor Schultz who, as many will know in this House, is one of Canada 's leading soloists and recitalists . He was awarded second prize at the 1989 Carnegie Hall International American Music Competition for violinists on Sunday , September 24, 1989, in New York City. Mr.

Schultz was one of over 40 violinists representing 13 United States and six foreign countries who accepted to participate in the preliminary auditions from an initial field of over 70 applicants. Following the semi-final auditions in Weill Recital Hall, the seven-member international jury selected Victor Schultz. A number of commentaries and local critics in New York City gave Mr. Schultz very high marks and very warm praise for his performance. I quote from two very briefly.

Newsday said , " Schultz , tall and angular, offered a brilliant, riveting performance of Rochberg's highly dramatic Violin Concerto (1974)-a piece that certainly deserves a place in the concert repertory . Schultz, his tone bright and aggressive, played with intensity and conviction , revealing the deep vein of lyricism in the music ," and finally from the Daily News, ". . . it was no secret that the audience favourite was the second prize winner, 30-year-old Victor Schultz , whose total technical and structural mastery of the elephantine George Rochberg Concerto was hardly short of stunning .

All three violin-orchestra works were originally premiered by Carnegie Hall President Isaac Stern . Perhaps if he had been on the jury, Sunday, the outcome might have been different." So, on behalf of all Members in the House, who I am sure will rise with me today and send our warmest congratulations to Winnipegger Victor Schultz, I wish him the very best in all of his future performances . Mr.

Speaker: I would like to take this opportunity to thank all Honourable Members for your very kind words-excuse me, I have a major infection today, but I would like to take this opportunity to say to you all that I acted on your behalf in putting the forum together, because as your Speaker I represent each and ever y one of you. Excuse me for the tone that I have here, but I will get better. Thanks anyway. *

(1420) MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): Mr. Speaker, under our Rule 27( 1) I would like to move a motion requesting a debate on a matte r of urgent public importance . Mr. Speaker, I move , seconded by the Member for Rupertsland (Mr. Harper) , that under Rule 27 that the ordinary business of the House be set aside to discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely, the need for active intervention by the provincial Government to prevent the closure of LynnGold . 2246

Thursday, October 26, 1989 Mr. Speaker: Before determ ining whether the motion meets the requir ements of our Rule 27, the Honou rable Member for Ch urch ill will have fiv e minut es to state his case for ur gency of debate on this ma tter . A spo kesperson for each of the other Parties will also have fiv e minut es to address the position of their Party respect ing the ur gency of this matter . Mr. Cowan: Mr.

Speaker, this is indeed a diffi cult issue for you becaus e I realize tha t you have to make a deter mina tion as to what really is ur gent and what is not ur gent in order to make a decision respect ing this request. I gue ss the ques tion then becomes: when does a matter, or situati on, or potential crisis become a crisis and for tha t reason become urgent? I would sugge st tha t we are at a point in time where the timing is ext remely critic al with respect to the necessary int ervention by the provi ncial Govern ment to save the com mun ity of Lynn Lake.

We can not wait for the closu re to actually take pl ace becaus e to do so would be to abrogate our responsibility here to try to prevent that closur e using every oppor tuni ty possible. We know tha t final decisions are bei ng taken now. The notice for the closur e is November 6. It has been twelve and a half weeks sinc e that notic e has been given and the issue is sti ll un resolved. I wou ld suggest, Mr. Speaker, that that alone makes it an ur gent situation when you are less than two weeks away from a closur e and you have had twelve and a half weeks to resolve the issue and you can not.

We do not know when tha t die will be cast . We do not know whether it will be today, this aft ernoon, or tomorr ow, when tha t final decision will be taken . We know that meetings are bei ng held, we know tha t the compa ny is going through its check list for closing the commun ity, th at they are trying to locate locks and padlocks and chains and hasps. We know tha t th ere is a meeting tomorr ow in Lynn Lake on the part of the Ministers.

We fo und tha t out today in Que stion Period and I was told tha t the reason the Ministers are going to Lynn Lake tomorr ow is to discuss with the Citiz en's Comm ittee what will take pla ce in an orderly shutdo wn if a closu re does happen. They told us today tha t th ere is no agreement. So we have to assume that they, as the com pany is going through their check list, mus t now be going through their own check list. So in fact it is an extremely ur gent matter .

The act ions of the Go ve rnme nt itself, in arranging a meeting on 24-hour s shor t notice, because the commun ity jus t fo und out about it around noon this afte rnoon, and the meet ing is to be held at one o' clock tomo rrow, betrays the fact that they bel ieve it is extremely ur gent as well. So I would say tha t the Government has reinforced the fact that this is an urgent matter. Second, in order for the debate to fl ow, it mus t be that no other reasonable oppor tuni ty exists to bring forward this matter and to have it resolved. Well, Mr. Speaker, I have trie d every other opportun ity.

I have discussed this in th ree comm ittee meetin gs. I have put motions forward for papers; I have asked qu estions that were unanswered. I and my Leader have asked the Premier to travel to the commu nity to talk to people. I have asked qu estio ns in Quest ion Pe riod. I have mentioned this in my debates. I have mentioned it in my budge t debate. I mentio ned it in my debate on the thr one speech. I have written letters. I have put out pr ess releases. I have held press conferences. I have had priv ate conversations with Ministers who would listen to me.

I have appl ied for information under The Freedom of Informa tion Act. I have even been silent for the last two weeks, as I told the Minister I would be in comm ittee. It is a matter of record, becaus e I felt that they needed two weeks without pr essure to try to resolve this issue, but when the company starts to locate the padlocks tha t silence has to end, and not only does my silence have to end, but all those in this room who care about Lynn Lake and the futur e of the North, their silenc e has to end as well.

This debate, if requested, will be the only opportun ity for us to make th at collect ive pr esentation to the Government and to the public, and also to allow the Government to set the record strai ght because th ere has not been enough informa tion. This is a headline from the Northern Breeze, which is the newspaper for Lynn Lake, and it says: Not Enough Information from Premier . That is after the Premier (Mr. Filmon) visited the commun ity. That headline is from one month ago, September 27. I can tell you tha t nothing has chan ged in the past month.

So not only is this a debate for us to speak out on the Opposition benches, but it is an opportun ity, and there is no other reasonable oppor tun ity for it to be conducted in this way, for the Government to provide the information that they have not yet been able to pr ovide, rather than rush ing up to have meetings in Lynn Lake on such shor t notice and ther eby betrayi ng their own sense of ur gency. Mr. Speaker, perhaps you may not be able to make tha t decision.

I do not know, but I sugge st to you tha t if you are having difficult y tryi ng to determin e when the crit ical mass has been reached, when the critical stage has been pass ed, and when we have to have this debate when there will be no other opportun ity to do so, you do have an oppor tun ity available to you, and that is to leave the quest ion open to the Members of this Hous e. I for one wou ld be interested in seeing how the Members of this House would vote with respect to whether or not this debate should pr oceed.

That is a resolution of difficult ies like this tha t has been exercised I think effectively by pr evious Ministers, and I hope you would consider it. Mr. Reg Alcock (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, 250 jobs out of a town of 1, 500. For a Gov ernment tha t speaks bra vely about de central ization, and the supp ort of small and remote commun ities, this Government has taken remarka bly little action on this and several other matters when we have seen the shut down of pla nts. I think tha t we had an oppor tuni ty today to avoid this debate.

We had an oppor tunity in this House for the Minister to stan d up and give us some fur ther information th at wou ld sat isfy the conc erns t hat Members of this side of the House feel about what is

Thurs day, October 26, 1989 occurring in Lynn Lake. The Minister did not take advanta ge of th at oppo rtu nity. We have no further informa tion than we had when we came into this Chamb er, and I think the time is long past due tha t we exp ress to this Government and to the pr ovince our feeli ngs about what is happen ing not just in Lynn Lake, although Lynn Lake is the issue today, but right thr oughout the North. So we wou ld like to have this debate pro ceed today. Hon. Cl ayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, addressing the ur gency of this matter and whether or not this is the last opportun ity for Members of the House to debate an important issue before actions may or may not be taken, let me say that having watched issues come forward under Rule No. 27 for emergency debate, th at in my view this is one of the more legitima te issues than has been considered and br ought forward by Members in Opposition during this Session. I thank the Member for Chur chill (Mr. Cowan) for advance notice.

It certainly is a better app roach to giving inde ed all Members of this Ho use some opport uni ty to prepare their thinking for ma tters such as this. Mr. Speaker, th ere is a major story to tell, whether it is with respect to the ur gen cy, or whether it is with respect to many of the negotiations tha t have taken place up to this point in time. Let me say tha t the Member for Rossmere, the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr.

Neuf eld), welcome s an opportu nity to lay before the people of Manit oba and all Members of this House, a fuller story as to the Government's involvement in its atte mpts to see the continu ance of activities at that location. * (14 30) This Government has been open in this matter. The Minister has been very for thright. The Government has gone some distance in trying again to see the activities at LynnGold continue. We welcome the debate, and we look forward to enga ging in it imm ediately. Mr. Speaker: The Honou rable Member for Chur chill (Mr.

Cowan) did provide me with notic e of this matter, as requi red by our ru les. I have listened with care to the advice of Honou rable Members respect ing the ur gency of debating this matter today and thank them for their assistance to the Chair . The other opportun ities to debate this matter are limited. The Estim ates of the Depar tment of Energy and Mines are not likely to be consider ed for some tim e as they are eighth on the list for the Cham ber. There do not appear to be any other imme diate oppor tu nities to raise the matter. However, I do note that the Honour able Member for Chur chill (Mr.

Cowan) has not yet used his grievance.

As I have previously informed the House, the matter to be considered according to Beau chesne's Ci tation 389 "mu st be so pr essing tha t the public interest will suf fer if it is not given immediate atte ntion ." Additionally, Beauchesne's Citation 390 states in part that "the ord inary oppor tunities provided by the rules of the Hous e do not permit the subject to be brought on early enough and tha t public int erest demands tha t discus sion take pla ce immediately." Because of the seriou sness of this matter and its potential effect on the community of Lynn Lake and the surrou nding commun ities, I am sat isfied tha t the essen tial conditions stated in Beauchesn e's and reflected in the pr actices of the Hous e have been met.

I have noted and am taking into account in making my ruling the app arent general wish of the House to debate the matter. Therefore, the question before the House is shall the debate proceed? Those in fav our? Agreed. The Honou rable Member for Concordia. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Than!< you for the ruling and the concu rrenc e of the Members of the Ch amber on this very, very serious situati on. As the Member from Chur chill (Mr. Cowan ) has indicated, it is very difficu lt to know exactly when a situation like this will develop and when the Speaker shall make such a ruling.

We really appr eciate, Mr. Speaker, the fair ness that you have developed and worked with all Members of this Ch amber over the years, and we really on behalf of the people of Lynn Lake and the su rrou nding commun ity appre ciate the decision today. We would not be off ended, Sir, if you want, the re are a lot of people away in this House sick today, Mr. Speaker, and if you feel obl igated to leave the Chair we wou ld not be offen ded by tha t, Sir,· right now.

We have visited the commun ity, the Members in Government and the Government Ministers have visited the commun ity and are fully aware of the very, very serious situa tion. We know the negotia tions have gone back and forth in a very sensit ive way. We know th at th ere is a lot at stake in terms of those negotiations with the priv ate sector, but this is a communi ty tha t has had a long tradition in our provi nce and the mining indus try. It is virtually at death's doors, Mr. Speaker, in terms of the viability of the commun ity, and the viabil ity of the economy of of Lynn Lake.

We ha ve met with tea chers, social workers, commun ity leaders, miners, man agement of mine s, Go ver nment of ficials, cons erva tion officers, Na ti ve people, everybody from the communit y. They beli eve tha t there is a necessity for a bridge to maintain the LynnGold Mine in its short-term diffi cu lty with the commod ity pric es, par ticula rly gold. There have been precedents in this province, Mr.

Speaker, where bridging financ es have been arranged to ensur e the commun ities that can be devastated by short-term commodity pr ices can be maintained, and therefore in the medium term, and in the long term we are not left with ghost commun ities. Mr.

Speak er, the mining ind ustry and mining commun ities are somewha t similar to ag ricultu ral commun ities because some time s agri cult u ral commun ities in our province can be subjected to the subsi dies or weat her or a combination of commodity pric es tha t are artificial or un fai r and communiti es and fam ilies are in a potential of being destroyed in a short- 2248

Thurs day, October 26, 1989 teem. basis by the vagaries of the commod ity marke t in the agricu ltural sector. · (Mr. Mark Minenko, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) That is why, Mr. Acting Speaker, we put in pl ace sometime s long-term programs, sometime s short-term programs of Government support to help and bridge the vag arie s and the deficiencies of a sh ort-term mark etpla ce situation so tha t we are able to maintain the comm uniti es and the qu ality of lif e over the med ium term. Mr.

Acting Speaker, two or thr ee years ago, when the subsidy issue developed in such a way, we all in this Cham ber suppor ted su bsidy payments to farmers and other com ponents of the agricultu ral sector to ensure tha t our farmers were not driven off the land because of world and interna tional prices that they could not control. Two years ago, everybody in this Cham ber sup ported drought payments.

We wou ld argue about the appl ication, we wou ld argue about the implementa tion, we wou ld argue about the amount, but we did not argue at all about the absolute need to bridge, through public sector spe nding, the absol ute crisis situation on the farms of western Canada because of the devastating drought that took pla ce. So, Mr. Acting Speaker, the principle of public sect or suppor t for a commod ity crisis is well established in weste rn Canada and I believe in northern Canada.

In the short run th ere will be negat ive commod ity pric es; in the short run some compan ies will try to exercise some pr essure on the public pur se and commun ities to take advantage of th ose shor t-term commod ity markets. But, Mr.

Acting Speaker, we believe tha t with the buo yant mining sector we have in northern Manitoba in the last couple of years, well above what was origina lly projected in the budget of '88, much to the great benefit of Members oppo site, and wel l above what was even pred icted for the budget situa tion in 19 89-w e have received up wards of $300 million extra in revenue in the mining se ctor becaus e of the bu oyant world economic situation primaril y with ni ckel.

Yes, the commod ity pric es of gold have gone down, but I do not know any industr y analysts tha t are not pr oject ing, over a period of time, that gold will indeed go up, and I do not know any analy sts that do not tell us tha t the gold wilL not in the long run continue to be a very precious commodit y. The Members oppo site say th at is not right. Well, I will read their opin ions.

That is why we want to listen to this debate and hear the posit ion of the Government, but su rely when we have a situation where ther e is $300 milli on in revenue, primaril y from northern Manitoba, of mining revenues, when some of tha t money has fou nd its pla ce into a rainy-da y• fu nd, su rely we can bridge the short-term comm odity situation in Lynn Lake and keep the 250 job s in tha t com munit y, keep tha t town and com muni ty going. It is absolutely vital that we do everything possible for northern Manitoba communi ties and the qua lity of life in northern Manitoba. There is no ques tion, Mr.

Acting Speaker, tha t th ere alw ays· can be .o ther · th ings pla ced in northern commu nit ies; There is no question we can look at other oppor tun ities: I know the previous Governrrieht and I know the pr esent Govern ment is looking at other possi ble opportan ities for Lynn Lake, but let there be no mistake, if the mine goes down and 250 workers and their fam ilies, with the kind of salaries and qual ity of salaries and benefits tha t are a part and com ponent part of a mining indus try, are lost to that com mun ity, we are in a severe financial situation and the communi ty itself will become a poten tial ghost town , according to the cit izens we met with.

Now, tha t did not come from ju st our opinions and our research, Mr. Acting Speaker, it came from the gas stat ion operator who has just put in capital investment into his communit y. An Honourable Member: Now the mayor. Mr. Doer: Is he the mayor? Well, I would cong ratula te the owner of the gas stat ion in his election last evening as mayor becaus e I was very impr essed with his presentat ion and his advice to have short-term bridging of this commod ity sector in Lynn Lake.

Whether it was the mayor, the princip al of the school , the teachers, the mine workers, the company pr esident, the social workers or the health care workers that would be left with a skeleton hospital if this situation developed. If all people jus t ask this Government to put in pl ace a short-term plan jus t as the former Government did in 19 85, jus t as the former Government did in 19 83 in Leaf Rapids, put in some kind of plan to get us past this short-term crisis, so tha t we can maintain the jobs in our communit y. * (1 440) So in conclusion, Mr.

Acting Speaker, through you, I wou ld like to thank the Speaker of this Chamb er for his decision today. I agree with the Member for Chur chill (Mr. Cowan), we can not wait for tom orrow af ternoon and we do not need another Scheffervi lle in northern Manitoba. We need the jobs and the mine in the communi ty of Lynn Lake and we implor e and wou ld encou rage the Government to do everything in their power to bridge this crisis. Thank you very much. Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr.

Acting Speaker, it is with ple asu re that I stand today as the fi rst speaker for our Party on this very impor tant matter which is before the House this afternoon and, properly so, as a matter of ur gent public impor tance. Mr. Acting Speaker, I am going to concent rate my brief comme nts because we have a very lim ited time to speak , each of us, on the labour adjustment aspect and the problems tha t the North is fa cing in our economy in this provi nce and I am convinced un der the present regimes, both in Ottawa and in this province, will continue to face, un for tuna tely.

We know tha t many, many Manitobans have lost their jobs in the last year and a half. I have said before and I will say again tha t I believe free trade is a mistake, and free trade will add to the bur den on Manitoba workers through the process of rationalization and the so-called level playing field.

Thu rsday, October 26, 1989 I think we are going to increasingly see good jobs drained south and indeed, Mr. Acting Speaker, we have also seen jobs drained east and west within our own nation. I raised in this Hous e a nu mber of days ago the shut down of the mine in Flin Flon and the 87 jobs which were lost in tha t commun ity and I want to refere nce that, in par ticular , as we talk about the North.

The mining indust ry, of course, is a very volatile industry and an industr y tha t can go thr ough good ti mes and bad time s in a very short span because of cou rse the international markets are really not control lable on the part of any Governme nt and are as volatile as any market in the world. Mr. Acting Speaker, we see the ramifica tions of that on commun ities that tie their econom ies to the metals trade, and of course Lynn Lake and communiti es like Flin Flon and Thom pson are communit ies tha t are par ticular vul nerable to those swings.

The price of nickel is fairly high, mean ing tha t ln co and the City of Thompson are not doing so poorly right now. However, the other metals tha t are mined are not so well off and in par ticular we are tal king about gold in this case, Mr. Acti ng Speaker. As the Minis ter has correctly stated, he cannot be expected to prop up the price of gold in the worl d. We do not expect him to do that. What we do expect him to do is to take the initia tive to preserve the jobs and the population in the smaller commun ities in northern Manitoba tha t are tied directly to the mining indust ry.

One of the ways you can do th at is through long term diversifica tion of the econom ies in these smaller commun ities. The Government can and should take the lead in terms of incent ives for diversifica tion of the economy in these northern communi ties. A perfect exam ple of a way in which Govern ment can do that and show leader ship in th at ar ea is through the decen tral ization of its own opera tions. Mr. Acting Speaker, we have seen this Government commit time and again to decentraliza tion. We have yet to see a cogent plan put forward by this Govern ment to actually achieve that.

What the present Government seems to be hanging its hat on is sett ing up a Cabinet office in Br andon which ope rates ba sically as a refe rral service to Winn ipeg. Decentral izat ion means more than that. Decentral ization means jobs, good jobs, going out to the communi ties outsid e of the Peri meter Highway. For a Govern ment which comes primarily from outs ide of Winn ipeg , I think I, as well as most Manitoba ns, am deeply shocked at the level of perime teritis that seems to be perva ding this Government. That will, I am sure, wreak its effects in the months to come as it has already done, Mr.

Acting Speaker, but probably worse than the loss of not being pro-active is the loss of jobs that are tied to the pri vate sector and, in this case, the metals market. The Government has no response, because the Government has no ability and has done no legwork to provide for the people in those commun ities when these things happen . I have spoken before on what I cons ider to be an abysmal lack of soph istica tion, of fore thought, and of pro-activ e measu res in the area of labour adjustment.

This is another example of where that type of labour adjustment is essential, and it is essential tha t it mu st work for the continuation of this commun ity in its present form as a viable, thriving, northern commun ity. We have seen this Government speak highly of its plans in this area. We know that they are aware of the de Grand pre Repo rt, which spoke at length about the need to get soph isticated and get serious about labour adjustment in our society, yet the budget reveals a total comm itment in new dollars of somewher e less than 10 cents per Manitoba worker. That is not going to do a heck of a lot, Mr.

Acting Speaker, for the people in Lynn Lake. It is not going to do a heck of a lot for the people in Flin Flon. There just is not the ability on the part of this Government to come to grips in any serious way with the downturns tha t those communi ties are goin g to face. One of the thin gs that shocked. me, specific to the mine shu tdown near Flin Flon, was tha t the Minister, and I can only assume that it was a flippant remark at the time when I asked the question, said tha t mine, the Tartan mine, is in fact outside of Flin Flon anyways, so it is not really a commun ity.

The 87 people who were laid off in tha t case I am sure wou ld take issue with this Minister. They are mem bers of a commun ity, most of them are members of the Flin Flon comm un ity, and tha t commun ity is going to be reeling when th ose very well-paid job s, relat ive to other jobs, Mr. Act ing Speaker, jobs tha t supp ort fam ilies, jobs tha t suppor t econom ies and jobs that keep a commun ity thriving and active. I think we are increasingl y fa cing a situation where we will not be able to keep th ose people in Manitoba.

We are going to continue I think to see drains of highl y skil led people to other pr ovinces, to the United States, and tha t is a great shame. I bel ieve that we need to get with it, in keeping with the report of the federal Gov ernment who thems elves promo ted free tra de and recognize what they said. In their opinion they felt that free trade would be good for the count ry. I disagree with that, but even after tha t disagreement they did say even if free trade is good for us we are going to have to have a sophis ticated app roach to labour adjustment.

This what I might call tragedy for this nor thern commun ity concerns this caucus gr eat ly. We look fo rward to the ens uing debate. We look forward to hearing from the Minister as to his solutions and his ideas for this commun ity. It is a commun ity in need of leadership, leadership from the pr ovincial Government, and we look to this Minister to come forward with a plan of action in the wake - of the many pit falls which appear to be fa cing this communi ty in northern Manitoba, and indeed all of northern Manitoba, Mr. Acting Speaker. I want to thank you for this time.

I un derstand that my time is fi nis hed. I have one more minute. Thank you. I might add then in concl usion, it is our feel ing that northern Manitoba does need a sophisti cated appr oach to diversifica tion in the local ec onomies thr oughout 2250

Thursday , October 26, 1989 northern Manito ba. We believe tha t the Government can take a leadership role in that area through incent ives and also . through decentraliz at ion of its own Civil Service. We look forward again to this Govern ment making good on its commitment to decentraliza tion and making good on its comm itment to making the North a viable pl ace to live and to raise fam ilies. You have to have jobs to keep people in the Nor th. They need to provide for themselves and their fam ilies and that is what this Government is called upon to do. Thank you, Mr.

Acting Speaker. * (1 450) The Acting Speaker (Mr. Minenko): Order, ple ase. The Hono urable Member for Interlake. Mr. Bill Uruski (Interlake): Mr. Acting Speaker, I am very pleased to take par t in this debate this afte rnoon on the crisis fa cing Lynn Lake in northern Manitoba. I think tha t the Government really has to be more for thright with the citizens not only of Manitoba, but particularly with th ose in the communi ty of Lynn Lake.

Can you imagine in a com muni ty where a closur e of the mine of this magnit ude will in fact direct ly impa ct appro ximately 25 to 30 percent of the work force right in that commun ity, what a devastating impact that would be? Can you imagine going on over the last nu mber of months with the kind of unc ert aint y tha t hangs over many of th ose direct ly and indir ectly benef itting from the emplo yment within this min e?

The un certai nty of wondering whether we are going to have to pack up and move knowing tha t the homes in our communi ty will be devalued becaus e of such a magni tude this displa cement may have, yet not having the kind of, what I would say, assu ran ces from the Government that they will in fact exam ine and do what is necessary to maintain an entire commun ity. Mr.

Acting Speaker, we have in Manitoba experienced what I wou ld consider a boom in the mining indus try, and the Government has in fact been the recipient of major tax benefits as a result of the royalties charged on minerals, recog nizing although tha t gold pric es at the present time have dropped dramatical ly, but other minerals in, I gue ss what I would call, the income basket of minin g com mun ities are staying up there.

So really the Government should be playing a role in this whole process by doing what has been recognized in agricultur e over the last nu mber of decades of pr oviding tha t kind of income stabili ty. In this case it wou ld be job maint enance stabi lity to communi ties dependent on na tu ral resou rces or the mining com mun ities.

In the grains sec tor the federal Government over the last, what is it now, 15 years, it is at least 15 years, recognized that in the grains industry there had to be some long-term stabil ity put into pla ce in th e grains sector recognizing the- An Honourabl e Member: .I t has only been in the last four year's under the Mulr oney Government. · Mr. Uruski: Oh, no. In the last four years the payouts have been made, but the stabi lity was long recogn ized by all Par ties. The Minister of Natur al Resources (Mr. Enns ) will ha ve an opportun ity if he so desires to speak to this resolution.

The Parli ament of Canada recognized at least 15 years ago tha t income stabil ity and income protect ion for western Cana dian grain farmers dependent primarily on world export mar kets was a prerequisite to provide the under pinnin gs of rural western Canada. So a fund called the Western Gr ain Stabil izat ion Fund was put into pla ce with contributions from the federal Government and from the farm communi ty to provide for the long-term stabi lization plan in the event that grain pric es tu mbled to disast rous levels. Now I want to tell the Minister of Natural Resou rces (Mr.

Enns) this has occurred across the farm commun ity over the last four to fiv e years, and massive payouts have been trig gered out of the plan. In fact, Mr. Acting Speaker, one might say that the plan is in such a deficit tha t the federal Government has had to take the action to in fact write off some of the payouts because it is not likely to be paid back. Yet the same situation exists in the mining commun ities.

The Province of Manitoba over the last number of years has taken hu ndreds of mil lions of dollars in royalties, royalties tha t bel ong to all the cit izens of this province, in fact could have and should have I think have the intuition and the fore sig htedne ss to put into pla ce a fu nd tha t will deal with the kind of situations tha t Lynn Lake faces today. The Government of the Day really should be coming out and saying, yes, we will not allow the kind of actions that are bei ng pr oposed for Lynn Lake to take pla ce.

That may make negotiations a bit more diff icult and the priv ate sector may then take an att itude of saying, well, if the Government is there it will bail them out. I bel ieve tha t the Govern ment should be taking a much more agg ressive stand if tha t kind of att itude persists by any of the mining communi ties. I am not certain that is the case, but clear ly, to have heard the Minister of Mines (Mr. Neufel

d) a nu mber of weeks ago saying, oh well, there is really not tha t much we can do and it may be the end of the co mmunit y, tha t is una ccepta ble. It is un acceptable to the people of Lynn Lake; it is una ccepta ble to Manitobans; it is defin itely una cceptable to Member s in this Hous e, and so to hear tha t the Minister is going up to Lynn Lake tomo rrow to have an annou ncement and is not prepar ed to share some of that informa tion with Members in the Cham ber, I find tha t bordering on total disrespect for this House.

If the Minister has information that he is prepared to shar e with the citizens of Lynn Lake, surely he has not only the authority but really requir es the confide nce of Members in this Hous e to share with the Members of this House tha t informa tion. So, Mr. Acting Speaker, I am plea sed tha t this debate is being held today. It is not only crucial, it is critical for the people of Lynn Lake and of Manitoba to know what the future of their commun ity will be. Mr. Manness: It is my privi lege to enter into this most important debate. Mr. Acti ng Speaker, I know our 2251

- • I • Thur sday, October 26, 1989 Minister in due cou rse will lay out for the record some of the involvement in the Government in trying to maintain the activities at Lynn Lake. * (1 500) Ther e are a lot of questions tha t one has to ask. I have had the opportun ity to have listene d to the Leader of the NOP (Mr. Doer), I have had an oppor tun ity to have carefu lly to certain remarks put on the record by the ML A for St. James (Mr. Edwards). I think the basic question here is, how far does Government go in propping up a non -viable corpora tion? Of cou rse, tha t quest ion in itself begs a lot of questions.

The Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) says, wel l, not neces sarily non- viable. He is right, no t necessarily non-viable. That brings into question, timing. The Leader of the NOP beseeches Government to direct funds, to use his words, "to help move through the short-term crisis. " This then becomes in some respects a phi losophical argument. It becomes such because it is alm ost impossible to define the term "shor t-t erm ." Mr. Acting Speaker, it is never easy for any of us to definite what a short-term difficulty is, but I can tel l you as I stand here the NOP could never define the term "sh ort." Mr.

Acting Speaker, what has happe ned, and as the Minister has said on many, many occasions, never was it envisaged tha t the pric e of gold would fal l below $400 an ounc e, $400 U.S. an ou nce for such a long period of time. The Leader of the NOP (Mr. Doer) says the price of gold is about to go up. He claims as a sou rce analysts from the investment indust ry. You know, Mr.

Acting Speaker, we all receive the analysis sheets from Rich ardson Greenshields, from Nesbitt Thomson, from Midland Doherty and on and on and on, and they tell us, they try to give us some insight into the forecast as to what is going to happen in various secto rs, and within those sect ors what compan ies are going to do the best. The Leader of the NOP (Mr. Doer) says and I quo te, "tha t the industry claims th at the pric e of gold is going to rise above $400 U.S." Mr. Acting Speaker, two points, No. 1, it will happen . No. 2, when will it hap pen ?

The NOP would lead you to bel ieve tha t it is soon, short term. I could speak volumes as to the defi nition and how the defi nition of short term to the NOP has cost the taxpa yers of this provi nce hun dreds of mil lions of dollars over 10 years because of their defi nition, short term . I say that only as a philo soph ical debat ing point. What we are talking about here is the futur e of a commun ity, hu ndreds of people living in the communit y, I un derstand 1, 250 people, 250 jobs. These people are expect ing more than a philo soph ical debate today. I un derstand that. Mr.

Acting Speaker, also the taxpayers of this province are interested in this debate because they want to know how far this Govern ment should go in pro pping up a non-viable, in today's terms, indust ry, not mean ing the minin g indus tr y per se, but the indu stry with respect to pr oducing gold at a time when the break-even cost mus t be by necessity below $360 U.S. an ou nce. So, Mr. Acting Speaker, th ose are the two areas tha t we mus t debate here today. This Go vern ment and the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr.

Neuf eld) for the record will lay out some, at least, of the cons iderations tha t we are prepar ed to put forward, to brid ge the short term, sign ificant of thems elves, risk associated with them and thems elves, incredible risk, to show not only the people of Lynn Lake but to show all Manitobans that we were prep ared to go the extra mile in supp ort of a commun ity, still are as we stand here today, if the re can be a meeting of the minds. Mr. Acting Speaker, how far should we be expected to go, and how far should the taxpayers of the Province of Manit oba be expected to go?

We know tha t the former Government had made some pr ovision. They went some distance. Again, our Minister of Energy and Mines for the record will say how far our former Govern ment went in suppo rt at Leaf Rapids. That is right, and he will lay tha t on the record and Members oppo site may take some sati sfact ion from that, they may put a different interpr etation on the success or . the lack ther eof with respect to tha t bridging thr ough the short term . Mr. Acting Speaker, Govern ments are put into pla ce to make decisions.

They are put in pl ace to make execut ive decisions as to how far they should go, and that is a subjective value judgment. I disagree so heartily with the Leader of the NOP (Mr. Doer) when he would make it sound like the short term were something in terms of weeks, or something in the terms of months. One knows when you are tal king about a situa tion such as this that months may not be long enoug h, that indeed maybe we are ta lking about a year. Maybe we are talking about two years.

Somebody then has to do the cold, hard analysis, the very diffi cult an alysis coldhearted in su ppor t of the taxpayers of this province. Mr. Acting Speaker, we have done tha t. We have done that, and as I stand here, I want to indicate that we have gone far beyond the call of re sponsi bility to try and brid ge the shor t term. -( int erject ion)- Now the Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) says, you did not get results. That begs the qu estion: how much money do you th row at it before you get the results?

Do you th row in $35 million a year lik e the Members op posite did in support of Manf or, for a two-year -( int erject ion)- no, the Member says, who started it? I do not want to go back to who started it. The reason for star ting it I am sur e was as good then as it is today, but the point is when do you make the har d decision? This is what former Premier Pawley had to say on April 13, 19 83, when Sherritt-Gor don was the issue. This is from page 16 99, and I quote: "I want it to be ma de very, very clear ag ain, Mr.

Sp eaker , th at Government is not there ju st to hand out fund s to those tha t make applications. Oth erwise there is no end to the demands that might be made upon Governmen t." Mr. Acting Speaker, tha t is why we have been put in pl ace today, because of the legacy of many years 2252

Thursday, October 26, 1989 of the former Government making decisions that based on their definition of short term caused a hemorrhaging of public funds that lasted for years . Mr. Acting Speaker , the Member for St. James (Mr. Edwards) challenges our perimeteritis . That makes me sick. There has not been a Government in this provinc e for years that has shown a genuine commitment to northern Manitoba indeed as this Governme nt has, either through the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufeld) or the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) , genuine in every respect.

Let me close by saying I look forward to other contributions into this debate , and I look forward to the contributions, particularly of our Minister of Energy and Mines . Thank you . •

(1510) Mr. Herold Driedger (Niakwa): Mr. Acting Speaker, the issue at heart here, as we have had already described, is a community that is suffering a loss of its primary source of income, its econo mic mainstay, the economic generator which fuels all the other activity that takes place in a town. I do not think that I need to reiterate for the Members here assembled that in any kind of primary econom ic activity, it is the primary economic activity that builds the opportunities for people to get into other aspects of economic activity .

The forestry industry leads to all kinds of lumbering , furniture, and so on. The same thing happens with the mining industry. The mining industry provides the base metals out of which much of what fuels our standard of life, our quality of life, comes from, but as in all primary industries that are based upon a non-renewable resource, we do have a problem . The Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) did touch on it in his remarks just before mine . The problem at Lynn Lake is the one that, at this point in time, the gold prices are such that the operation of the mine is not profitable .

Other towns , other mines have suffered similar fates for different reasons. Either the quality of the ore is now so poor that it cannot sustain any kind of profitable venture, or the market drops out from what was to be an econom ic flyer, but turned out instead to be emp ty dreams. I t hink to put this into perspective, we need only to do a bit of a roll call . I think it has already been mentioned Schefferville , and I will add to that Faro , Gagnon, Bucha nan, Shebandowan , Canmore , Stewart , Alice Arm, the list goes on.

With a bit of research we can find many, many towns, and many, many mines that have had to close for one reason or another. Sometimes we have a situation where a mine closes and is reopened, closes and is reopened, as the economic indicators change. Sometimes, as in Uranium City, in Saskatchew an, what looked to be a glorious opportunity became instead a tqtal error in judgment, a completely new town built , now vacant because nobody can make a living there anymore. Houses, . empty. New homes that were built, empty. Infrastructure built for the town, no longer useable. There is no tax base.

There is no economic activity. The only people who live there apparently are people who just would not leave, have nothing to sustain their livelihood now, and they walk through this town, because as in any town where you end up having vacant houses, and there are a few peop le around, maybe vagrants who have gone through, broken windows, broken doors, people just walking into these homes. Where do you want to sleep tonight? Well , I do not know. This house is empty . I will move into there.

I think that it is this last aspect about what happens when towns close that we need to focus our attention on here this afternoon . Rather t han looking at the company and th€. company's bottom line, maybe even rather than looking at the Government , and the Government's bottom line , because I think it is fair, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) does ask fair questions when he says, how far should the Governm ent go? How far shoul d the taxpayers be prepared to go in supporting a company or an industry that is having difficulty?

I think good economic theory would probably suggest that it is better economically and for the bottom line to permit a company to either fail, restructure itself through other kinds of investing and start again, more lean and better able to handle what has to be done. This is fine when you talk companies.

This is fine when you talk an industry , but once again here we are faced with something that is not necessarily southern Manitoba where when we do have in a situation like this, much effort is made to try and save communities , but this is northern Manitoba, an area of our province that already has several strikes set against it simply in survival.

Energy costs are higher, living costs are higher, a sense of isolation and alienatio n is high because somehow the bottom line, which here looks so easy in black and white, up north when you start looking at what that bottom line means to a community , causes dread and fear and anguish. I think it is incumbent upon the Government to clearly clear the air and state what they intend or it intends to do in this situation. We have a community that is losi ng its economic base ; it is a one-industry town .

We have heard the statistics : 1,250 people , 250 jobs, and if you take a look at those statistics geographically and economically, every single mining job translates into other jobs in the town . The fact that the mine is active and the fact that the concentrator is active and that the refinery is active leads to jobs which produce jobs for people who sell goods, merchandise, leads to jobs for the teachers who teach the school children, leads to jobs in the transportation industry for people to supply goods and servi ces to this community , and it is this that we need to focus on.

The mista ke here, to my mind , because of the shortness of time, is not necessarily the sense of immediacy but if a mistake can really be allo cated with respect to Lynn Lake , is the fact that we knew when Lynn Lake started that the ore would some day run out. That is when the contingencies should have been put into place, particularly for north ern Man itoba which requires more population, which requires more activity, to prov ide a more healthy balance to the disproportionate strength of southern Manitoba and the strength- of the urban centres . 2253

Thursday, October 26, 1989 I see that- is that one or three? I see that my light is flashing and telling me that it is time to bring my remarks to a close, but I would like to str ess once aga in, the real issue is the community . We talk long- , term planning many times, but right now we are too late in long-term planning , as I referenced earlie r. The pla ns should have been made 25 years ago , 30 year s ago .

Perhaps the new towns of the present , which are also based on mining activity, will see that the planning for 25 years from now needs to be made today so that when this even tuality or problems occur they are ready with alte rnate activit ies because it is the North that we need to support. We must not look at Lynn Lake and the situation as being just one town . It is the North, it is northern Manitoba, and that is what we have to keep uppermost in our mind. Thank you , Mr. Acting Speaker. Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr.

Acting Speaker , it is a sad day today that we may be standing at the edge of a precipice with Lynn Lake ready to fall over the edge , doomed to oblivion insofar as a community in Manitoba because of a lack of commitment by this Conservative Government in this province, and a lack of commitment to the community and employees by this company, LynnGold , that they can pick up and leave when things get tough or make excessive demands on Government, whichever they may be. •

(1520) We do not know whether they have made excessive demands on Government because this Minister will not share that information with this House.

The Government side said that they are prepared to debate this, they want to debate th is issue, they believe it is important if the Minister respons ible will not get up in this debate , early on in the debate and provide the information to this House as to what he has done, what he intends to do and whether in fact that company has indeed made excessive demands on Government, or whether in fact they have been reasonable and they have lived up to thei r responsibilities.

If they have not, if they have abandoned their employees , if they have abandoned the commun ities , then this Minister has every right to say: We cou ld not deal with them , they were unreasonab le, they made excessive demands on the taxpayers of this province . But he has not provided that information so that we will be able to make a decision , collectively , as Members of this Legislature as to how th is Government has acted. It is scandalous that the Minister and the Government will allow th is to happen if, indeed, this closure takes place as it seems now.

I say it is equally a~ scandal_ous that this company should not negotiate sincerely 1f 1n fact that is what is behind what the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) said and what others have said insofar as the intransigence and the impasse that has developed here if they have not negotiated with good faith . It underlines the need for development agreements to be put in place to force corporations to meet obligations to communities when they establish pl'.1nts, if they are going to receive Government money m so doing, not that they can abando n thei r responsibilities and walk away when things get toug h.

The Minist er o f Finance says , how far can the Government go? He asks that question in th is House, in propping up a non-viable company . Well , first of all, it i s not clear that this is long-term non -viability. Metal fluctua tions take place from time to time, we all know that . They did that with nickel and copper and zinc , all of the prices have gone down over a period of time and have come back up as the cycle continues and as it has through generations. Sometimes cross subsidization has to take place within a company from profitable sections to unprofitable sections.

The Government knows that gold prices will pick up, the Minister of Finance talks about throwing away money. Well, the people of Lynn Lake and the people of our north are waiting for some word as to whether they have a future and the Member who spoke just before me mentioned that we are really talkin g about the North here. It is at least symbolic and lots more in terms of meaningful action that is required by this Government to demonstrate their commitment to the North. The people of the North are watching. The Government's commitment to the North is at stake here.

While Tories say the NDP threw money away on ventures such as this, let this Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) look at the excerpt that he read from Hansard from the previous Premier, Howard Pawley, when he made a statement that it is not up to the Government to prop losing corporations. Let him show how that justifies what he said, that that was the NDP Government throwing money away. As a matter of fact , if he looks at Leaf Rapids , if he looks at Thompson , if he looks at Lynn Lake, he would know, Mr.

Acting Speaker, that the previous Government made some very wise decisions to work with those companies to ensure that they continue to operate. I would ask him, and I would ask the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufeld) if in fact they believe that the undertakings that were made by the previous Government in those communi ties were bad investments for the taxpayers of this province. Were they bad?

Judge each one of them on their merits, each individual one and say that was a bad decision by the previous Government, or tell this House, tell the people of Manitoba whether each one of those was a good decision for the taxpayers of Manitoba. In many cases, that Minister, both of those Ministers, all those Ministers will have to acknowledge that those decisions that were made were good decisions for the taxpayers of Manitoba . There was not a huge hemorrhaging of taxpayers' money. Think of the benefits to the economy if they judge it on that basis.

Think of all of the spinoff benefits , the direct and indirect jobs that accrue with the taxes that are collected as a result of those jobs being maintained, the businesses that continue to operate, the support jobs that are in place in those communities, the potential for tourism spending that comes from outside of the province, all of that lost when these communities shut down . Think of all of those individual concerns, add them up and then determine , after you 2254

Thursday, October 26, 1989 have a made a proper economLc analysis, a cost.benefit analysis of that money, whether in fact that was a bad investment. I challenge the Government Ministers to, in fact, stan d before this House and the people of Manitoba and say that each of those incentiv es that were put in place, supports and agreemen ts that wen;i drawn up with thos e companies to keep those mining towns alive, were bad investments for the taxpayers of this province . I do not think that those Ministers can do that straight-faced to this· House.

I visited the communities in the North that are affected ; I visited the people there . I know that they are proud to be northerners . They are proud of their communities. They are proud to be Manitoba ns, and they want a future in this province just as much as each small community in rural Manitoba wants a future. I can draw a parallel with what we see here to what the federal Government is doing in abandoning a number of their responsibilities to our rural communities. We see that in the abandonment of the railway lines at CN, the abandonment of VIA passenger services, the abandonment of their pos t offices .

They are abandoning our rural communities , in many cases closing post offices and amalgamating them. Yes, and people are losing their jobs, the Ministe r of Community and Family Services (Mrs . Oleson) knows that, if she would just do some research on the topic . That is what I am saying is happening in our rural areas. It is hurting our rural communities, and in this one we have a parallel where this Government is doing the same thing because they say, well , the taxpayers are watching and we might be throwing away too much money and we want to prove a point here , tha t we are good managers.

The fact is, if they weigh all of the socioeconomic benefits of an investment , they will find-and they will tie it to certain requirements for the company, of performance standards and performance guarantee s. If they have to take equity or shares , they can do that for a short period of time and sell that back at a time when the prices go up and there is a better opportunity . There are many ways to do this through development agreements, but they have to try all of those innovative ways .

They cannot write this off by saying this is a throwing away, this is a waste of taxpayers' money because there is so much at stake here . These people are looking to this Government for their future. They want to be assured that this Government has indeed a commitment to the North, not withstanding the fact that we have a Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) who claims he is doing everything for the people of the North . They judge by act ions, not by hollow rhetoric from the wind tunnel, Mr. Acting Speaker .

They must have action, and they will judge this Government , not by what the Minister of Northern Affairs said , but by the action of this Government , and it is symbolically indicated in this particular decision that must by made by this Government. We will watch with a great deal of interest, Mr.

Acting Speaker, and we will pray for the people of the North and the people of Lynn Lake in the days ahead as their future is being deliberated by thi& Minister and this Government and that company which I say must treat those people with sincerity, with the kind of responsibility that they have when these people worked for them all of those year s to provide the fruits of their labour so that they can make a profit is now their turn to come back and give something back to those employees. They have a respo nsibility to negotiate in good faith with this Government. We have not been shown, Mr.

Acting Speaker, that in fact they have not done that, but we have been given a hint by several Ministers that this company has not negotiate d in good faith. We want to hear those fac ts, we want to hear the Mini ster put them on the record here. Thank you, Mr. Acting Speaker. *

(1530) Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources ): Mr. Acting Speaker, I simply could not resist the oppo rtunity for entering the debate, the consummate gall , the nerve, of being lectured by a former Minister of the New Democratic Party Government about mak ing wise economic decisions . The landscape of Manitoba is littered with economic disasters in the North, in the South , in the West, in the East , wher ever you go. It is worthwhile to put on the record for some our newer Members just to remind them of this. This Government thought they knew how to make Chinese food and we invested money in that.

This money thought they could build doors and windows and we invested in doors and window factories. This Government that I am pointing to, or this former Government , thought they could build airplanes and $48 to $50 million came to a slithering halt somewhere in Gimli, of which none of the taxpayers of Manitoba have seen any return . This Government of Manitoba, Mr.

Acting Speaker , thought they could build buses and for year after year after year the taxpayers of my consti tuency in Lakeside , the taxpayers of Reston, the taxpayers of Arthur , the taxpayers of La Verendry e and Lac du Bonnet had to buttress up those jobs as we tried to prove to the world that we could build buses. (Mr.

Neil Gaudry ; Acting Speaker, in the Chair) Finally, it even dawned on them , and it was a New Democratic Party Government , it was a New Democratic Party Minister that finally sold that bus company to the private sector, and thank goodness he did , because that bus company is doing well , employing hundreds of people and selling buses all over the world, all over the North American continent not at the cost of the taxpa yers . But by far the worst condemnation of that Government that the Honourable for Dauph in (Mr.

Plohman) who just spoke has the nerve to lecture us on is the legacy they left my colleague , the Minister of Financ e (Mr. Manness) , Mr. Acting Speak er, who daily has to write out a cheque because of their six years of mismanag eme·nt. Their six years of mismanag ement, my colleague has to write out a cheque for over a mill ion dollars every day to cover the borrowing that the Pawley administrat ion undertook. Mr. Acting _ Speaker, it is mind boggling when you think of the fact that in six short years the last New Democratic Party Government borrowed more money 2255·

Thursday, October 26, 1989 than all 18 Premiers that preceded them. They borrowed more money than a hundred years of Manitoba history and what have we got to show for it? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! The Acting Speaker (Mr. Gaudry): Order, please; order, please . Mr. Enns: Yes, Mr. Duff Roblin borrowed money, but we have public works to show for it. ***** Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. Why does not this Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) talk about Mulroney 's borrowing? He has borrowed more money than all Governments of Canada have borrowed in the last four years.

Why does he not talk about the borrowing of Devine in Saskatchewan? Why does he not talk about the borrowing of Getty in Alberta? Why does he not talk about all that borrowing by Tory Governments? The Acting Speaker (Mr. Gaudry): A dispute over the facts is not a point of order. The Honourable Minis ter. ***** Mr. Enns: My colleague , the Minister of Labour (Mrs . Hammon

d) is quite correct when she says, look , this is Manitoba we were talking abou t. But , given the invitation, I will tell him about Mr. Mulroney 's problems and Mr. Wilson 's problems. In 1968, in 1969, Canada had virtually a balanced budget. It took 17 years of Mr. Trudeau supported by Mr. Lewis in the NOP that drove us into the unco nscionable deficit that Canada now has, and Mr. Wilson has the same problems that you left Mr. Manness in paying for the servicing charge of that debt.

Thanks to the Mulroney Government, the taxpayers of Canada are not paying out upwards to a billion dollars to carry on the operation of Canadair. Canada ir is now a world leader in the aerospace industry and making money and employing people . I just wanted to simply indicate that we need not stand for any lectures form the Honourable Members in that corner of the House with respect to mak ing wise fiscal judgments .

The questio n before the House and surely the question that we have to be resp onsible to the people in Lynn Lake and in northern Manitoba is, has this Government done everything they can in securing tho se jobs? I am confid ent that when we hear from our Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufeld) , most reas onable thinking Manitobans, and that surely ought to include some Members opposite, will think that an offer of upwards to $24 million, an offer of all kinds of diffe rent com bin atio ns of programs is a reasonable offer. I am sure, Mr.

Acting Speaker, that if Honourable Members hear from my colleague the Minister of Labour (Mrs. Hammond) , who has not been sitti ng idly by but who has been prepared and has her department prepared to be of assistance with those kinds of safety measures that we have built in legislation under The Mining Reserves Act and other measure s that you would expect a progressive Department of Labour to be cognizant of. Those are the things that you would expect a responsible Government to be in a position to, and to be read y to respond with .

That is the criticism , that is the watchdog role of Members opposite that they ought to be performing . They ought to ensure that those measures are in place and I invite them to ask respective Ministers if we are in fact ready to respond to this kind of an emergency situat ion, but the fact of the matter is, important decisions have to be made.

They are not easy decisions that have to be made and if the Honourable Members want to gamble and risk and spec'ulate Manitoba taxpayers money on a volatile commodity like gold when most of the world's gold today mined is being mined at a cost of below $200 and we need in excess of $400 to break even at Lynn Lake, then we have a problem. I do not for one moment underestimate the problem that is for the 200 miners involved .- (inte rjection) - Well do I have to remind this Honourable Member that he should even talk about bridges? Do we remember that bridge that led to nowhere?

I mean this Honourable former Minister of Highways, he must have been watching The Bridge Over The River Kwai too often , the prisoners of war who laboured on that bridge only then to blow it up because it was as worthwhile as the $20 million that the Honourable former Minister of Highways invested in a venture here in Manitoba. Mr. Acting Speaker, I appreciate that my time is limited . I want Honourable Members to at least recognize the fact that this Government, as you would expect any Government, is as concerned as anybody else about the welfare of the miners in Lynn Lake .

This Government is prepared to do everything within our power to aid , to first of all assist in helping to keep that mine open . I believe commen ts that will shortly be put on the record by the Minister of Mines and Energ y (Mr. Neufeld) will demonstrate that beyond any quest ion of doubt. Further to that, this Government will assist in any transit ion problems that individuals face in that community and that will be demonstrated by the actions of th is Government , and as somebody said, not by the rhetori c. Thank you. Hon.

Gerrie Hammond (Minister of Labour): I am pleased to be able to say a few words today on this important issue. One of the areas that we have been working on in this Government has been said time and time again , is the fac t th at we have been trying desperately to make sure that this mine would be able to stay open , that a committee of Cabinet was struck to make sure that all areas were covered and that we were able to work within Government with one another so that we would be able to help the people in Lynn Lake.

Only July 31 the Department of Labour was notified from the Board of Directors of LynnGold Resources 2256

Thursday , Octol:Jar 26, 1989 th at they l)ad decided to close MacLe ilan operations .Jn Lynn Lake. They gave 14 weeks notice. Immediately the labour adju stment uni t iri the Depart ment of Labo ur contacted the company fo make sur e tha t there would be a labour adjustment comm ittee started in Lynn Lake should the mine close. All th e time, and I want to reiterate, we have been working to keep the mihe open. We un derstan d as Well as anyohe how hard it is for a communi ty to:f ace what might be t he end of a way of lif e. We wanted to make sure tha t they wou ld be able to continue in Lynn Lake.

We wanted to make sure that this mine could stay open and we .have done everything possible to make tha t a reality. But in the event that did not happen , the Department of Labour which handles the relocation, which handles the labour adjustment uni ts, had to make sure that t hese were in place and that is what happened .

There were two industrial adjustment committees star ted, one with the mining company emp loyees and one wit h th e Lynn Lake commun ity, so tha t everyone would be covered who would be affected should th ere be a close down of the LynnGold opera tion. * (1 540) The adjustment committee deals with 250 empl oyees. Tney deal wit h mem bers of the Lyii nGold staff, both the steelworkers, the EiC, Emp loyment and Imm igration Cana da, Manit oba Labo ur, arid they work together to make sur e tha t the re is a comm ittee in pla ce to help the emplo yees.

The same thing happens with the Lynn Lake commun ity, and it is most important for everyone to un derstand tha t this is going on at the same time that we are work ing as a Govern ment to tr y and keep this opera tion open. It is imp ortant tha t the emplo yees as well know tha t there is some help at hand. This is the type of work tha t my depar tment, the Depart ment of Labo ur, does in tha t commun ity. There was a comm ittee struck in both areas. The fi rst thing they do is there is money supp lied to the adjustment comm ittee so the y are able to hire a Chair of their choosing.

The Government does not have any input into that. This is between the com pany and the workers to make their own decision on who they have to chair it and they have both chosen very competent Chair s tha t they are pl eased with. This is ho w it works becau se it really is what we are worki ng to do in Manit oba Labo ur is to work with the people who will be un emplo yed with the people who may be dislocated from their areas of work.

It is important to Understand tha t one of the fi rst areas tha t they go into, the fi rst thing th ey do, is they su rvey the workers because they have to know exact ly what type of emplo yment the se people are looking at. We are not jus t ta lking about miners, we are ta lking about supp ort staff within the mine , we are talking about people in the commun ity. Ther e is a lot of groun dwork tha t is done and it started almo st immedia tely.

Another thing tha t is done immediately is they get someone in who is a financial planner to help people because imm ediately when something like this may happ en people are in all kinds of financial, not maybe all of tliefh in trouble, because some of them may have invest ments that they have to consider, the y have pension .plans tha t they .have to consider, ther e are nu merous things tha t they have to look at. That is one of the areas tha t the adjustment comm ittee deals with. Ttiey make sure th ere is somebody there.

The other person that they get almost imm ediately onc e th ey have done the su rvey is the y ge t an emp foyment couns ellor. There are some very good people who work in ttia t area and have been used in other areas. It is not hit and miss by any mean s. There is a very structur ed way of doing it but at the same time it is very flexible and it is not short-t erm. Sometime you will find empl oyees that have made a decision tha t they 11\/ou ld prefer to get their own emplo yment. So they go out and they do so. They do not work with the adjus tment uni t or the adjus tment comm ittee.

It pos sibl y does not work out. Even if it is a year's time, they can go back and they will get help. These comm ittees are not set up for short time, they work as a flexible unit to help the empl oyees, because one of the things th at they assist them in is in job search, in resume writ ing, in interview skill s, infor mation on ret raining opportuniti es, jo b pla cement assistance, and I had mentioned before financial plan ning, individual cou nselling, workshops, anything tha t the comm ittee decides tha t they would feel tha t they think is usefu l.

This commit tee gets tog ether, the jo b cou nse ll ing person, they all have a lot of experienc e in this area, and they work very well with the emplo yees and it is a wonderful area. Another area that we have been in touch with certa inly is with Family Services. The person that is in the emp loyment centre is from Family Services, and this is on secondment. That is a help too because when th ey need emergency assistance it will be there for them. There is somebody th ere tha t can help them out. It is most important tha t the people in tha t com muni ty know tha t we are there to help them.

Our greatest hope is th at they will not have to really use this service, tha t they will be able to stay in their own commun ity. That is one of the things tha t this Govern ment has been working to make sure. I see my time is almost up, one minu te. I would jus t like to say tha t the services are custom ized and they are flexible. You work on a one-to-one or if there is a group of emplo yees tha t would like a certa in cour se, they make that happen. They bring in people from other compan ies arid they make sure tha t the recru itment people get in touch with the emplo yees. They do all this kind of work.

I want to assur e the House, and I want to assure th e people of Manitoba tha t we are doing everything possible to make sur e tha t shou ld this closur e happen tha t they have the assistance. We are doing everything in our power to make sur e tha t that does not happen . · Mrs. Gwen Charles (Selkirk): In order to relieve the tension tha t sometime s this busi ness tha t we are in builds up, I have jus t fin ished reading the Hitch hikers Guide to the Gal axy, the fi rst section. In this book, it starts off by this gentleman worried tha t his hous e is going to be plowed down because they are going to 2257

Thursday, October 26, 1989 put a highway through, and he wakes up one morning and finds bulldozers in his back yard . He goes out and they say, well how can you object to this because after all we t old you all about it, it was down in City Hall, In t he fourth basement , the fifth row of the sixth book. You wil l n oti ce t hat this is where the declaration that we are goi ng t o take your house down was made .

It goes on furt her in the book and it turn s out that this alien creatur e comes by and blows up the world, because after all they are putting through a galaxywide thoro ughfare , and the world happens to be in the place , and the peop le of the earth start complaining and saying, well th is is not fair. They say, well what do you mean it is n ot fair, we tol d y ou all about it. After all, it is in the planet, a certain fourth basement of a building and if you had really wanted to know about it you would have gone and searched it out . This discussion that I just heard from the Minister of Labour (Mrs.

Hammond) reminds me much of the same situation , because the actual thing we are talking about is not how to rebuild these people 's lives, it is how to maintain their lives . These people have a commun ity called Lynn Lake . It is homes, people have been born there, have lived there, have developed their lives there . It is not something that we can just arbitrary stroke a pen and say, you are gone . We will provide you with all this nice counselling and hopefully that is the case if this has to be, but it is not just writing it off and saying good-bye, the community is gone.

We here in Manitoba, especially during this last week, are very easily condemning the East and often do for giving us no attention and not knowing our needs , that we are Westerners and we are part of Canada and within the structure we are as important and as unique as anywhere else in Canada . That is true and I fully believe that, but how can we here sitting in this building commit Lynn Lake to disappear in the same way that we feel some parts of Canada are committing us to disappear in our traditions, in our background, in our family life?

They are fighting up in Lynn Lake for their lives, for their way of living. We have to show sympathy here and not just look at it as an economic win, lose situation . We have to show some heart . No matter what we do in this building, if we do not have heart then we are not making the best decisions. Certainly there are methods of economics that have to pay off, but I have seen big corporations move in and they are getting as much support as we are looking at for Lynn Lake . I have seen annual incomes being given out to people to look at pieces of paper for The Forks Renewal Corporation .

These are all important because after all they are located in the hub of Winnipeg and these seem very important to us because we can see the growth there . We can go down and cut ribbons and we can see the people's daily lives as they get on the buses and go down and tour The Forks and buy their potatoes . What do the people in Lynn Lake have? They have 57 people in thi s r oom discussing their lives, whether it is a win, lose situation and it seems to me that we are tak ing on a very God-like stance and if we can only see it as a paper shuffling exercise.

We have to understand the heart of these people and what they are after. *

(1550) There certainly are speculations to be made in the gold prices . They are to be down over the next few years, and who knows, but we know that gold will always be the precious resource that it has been traditionally. An Honourable Member: What evidence do you have of that? Mrs. Charles: The Minister asked , what evidence? There are standards that they say they will go monetary standards but there is certa inly no short-term indications that we are going to get rid of gold as a precious resource . It may well be wate r and of course the Conservative Government is quite willing to sell water off as well.

We have resources that will be precious forever and some· of them will be monetary and some of them will be natural, but there are standards and beliefs that things will get better. I come from Ontario originally and I remember areas like Elliot Lake and such being shut down. I see them now being built up again and I hate to think how many lives in that paper shuffle were disrupted and changed around , and I have heard of many who had to move out , the businesses shut down. You know we can speak a lot of decentralization and rural development and northern support.

We just spent $500,000 giving sports choices to the North. I should note here that no money was given to art support even though perhaps the most artistic community we have is from northern Manitoba, but of cou

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-58
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf 58.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	305b044eee33f83bb9c05e39b06f56f1cd4a80df

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