Manitoba Hansard — 9 May 2011 (Sitting 42, 39th Legislature, 5th Session)

39-5-42

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session - Thirty-Ninth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LXIII No. 42 – 1:30 p.m., Monday, May 9, 2011 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Ninth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park N.D.P. BLAIKIE, Bill, Hon. Elmwood N.D.P. BOROTSIK, Rick Brandon West P.C. BRAUN, Erna Rossmere N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. BRIESE, Stuart Ste. Rose P.C. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P.

DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. HOWARD, Jennifer, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MARCELINO, Flor, Hon. Wellington N.D.P.

MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McFADYEN, Hugh Fort Whyte P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PEDERSEN, Blaine Carman P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SARAN, Mohinder The Maples N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELBY, Erin, Hon. Southdale N.D.P. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon.

Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew, Hon. Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WHITEHEAD, Frank The Pas N.D.P. WIEBE, Matt Concordia N.D.P. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P. Vacant Inkster Vacant Lac du Bonnet

1665 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, May 9, 2011 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Mr. Speaker: O Eternal and Almighty God, from Whom all power and wisdom come, we are assembled here before Thee t o f r a m e s u c h l a w s a s may tend to the welfare and prosperity of our province. Grant, O merciful God, we pray Thee, that we may desire only that which is in accordance with Thy will, that we may seek it with wisdom, know it with certainty and accomplish it perfectly for the glory and honour of Thy name and for the welfare of all our people. Amen.

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 219–The Teachers' Pensions Amendment Act Mr. Cliff Cullen (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler), that Bill 219, The Teachers' Pensions Amendment Act, be now read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Cullen: Mr. Speaker, this bill amends the

section of The Teachers' Pensions Act regarding the Teachers' Retirement A llowance Fund board by increasing the number of board members to nine, requiring at least one member to have investment management experience and requiring one member to be a retired teacher nominated by the Retired Teachers' Association of Manitoba. Thank you very much. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Order. If you wish to have a conversation, please use the loge because we're trying to do some House business here. PETITIONS PTH 5–Reducing Speed Limit Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. And these are the reasons for this petition: Concerns continue to be raised about the number of motor vehicle accidents at the intersection of PTH 5 and PR 276 at the intersection of PTH 5 and PR 68. The Rural Municipality of Ste. Rose and the Town of Ste. Rose have both raised concerns with the Highway Traffic Board about the current speed limits on that portion of PTH 5 in the vicinity of Ste. Rose du Lac. Other stakeholders, including the Ste. Rose General Hospital, Ste.

Rose and Laurier fire departments, East Parkland Medical Group, Ste. Rose District Community Resource Council, have also suggested the lowering of the current 100-kilometre-per-hour speed limit on a portion of PTH No. 5 may help reduce the potential for collisions. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation to consider the importance of reducing the speed limit of PTH 5 to 80 kilometres an hour in the vicinity of the town of Ste. Rose from the west side of the Turtle River Bridge to the south side of the access to the Ste.

Rose Auction Mart to help better protect motorist safety. This petition is signed by S. De Laurier, W. De Laurier, M. Saquet and many, many other fine Manitobans. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. Auto Theft–Court Order Breaches Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Good afternoon, Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly.

The backgrounds to this petition is as follows: On December 11th, 2009, in Winnipeg, Zdzislaw Andrzejczak was killed when the car that he was driving collided with a stolen vehicle. The death of Mr. Andrzejczak, a husband and a father, along with too many other deaths and injuries involving stolen vehicles, was a preventable tragedy. Many of those accused in fatalities involving stolen vehicles were previously known to police and

1666 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 9, 2011 identified as chronic and high-risk car thieves who had court orders against them. Chronic car thieves pose a risk to the safety of all Manitobans. We petition the Legislative Assembly as follows: To request the Minister of Justice to consider ensuring that all court orders for car thieves are vigorously monitored and enforced. And to request the Minister of Justice to consider ensuring that all breaches of court orders on car thieves are reported to police and vigorously prosecuted. Mr. Speaker, this petition is signed by C. Dynowski, G. Chmukynsh, K.

Stasica and thousands of other Manitobans. Convicted Auto Thieves–Denial of MPI Benefits Mr. Blaine Pedersen (Carman): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background to this petition is as follows: In Manitoba, a car thief convicted of stealing a vehicle involved in a car accident is eligible to receive compensation and assistance for personal injury from Manitoba Public Insurance. Too many Manitoba families have had their lives tragically altered by motor vehicle accidents involving car thieves and stolen vehicles.

It is an injustice to victims, their families and law-abiding Manitobans that MPI premiums are used to benefit car thieves involved in those accidents. We petition the Legislative Assembly as follows: To request that the Minister of Justice deny all MPI benefits to a person fo r injuries received in an accident if he or she is co nvicted of stealing a motor vehicle involved in the accident. And this petition is signed by A. Wiebe, G. Jones, M. Jones and many, many more fine Manitobans. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Innovation, Energy and Mines): I'm pleased to table the following report: Manitoba Innovation, Energy and Mines, Supplementary Information for Legislative Review, 2011-2012 Departmental Expenditure Estimates. Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): It's my pleasure to table the 2011-2012 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for the Department of Manitoba Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives. Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, I'm pleased to table the 2011-2012 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for the Manitoba Employee Pensions and for the Manitoba Civil Service Commission, and I'm also pleased to table the Manitoba Enabling Appropriations and Other Appropriations Supplementary Information for 2011-12. Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to table the written responses to Order Paper written Questions 22, 23, 24, 25 asked by the Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger). * (13:40) MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Flooding and Ice Jams Update Hon.

Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Measures): Mr. Speaker, last weekend's storms and additional rain forecasted this week will result in unprecedented flows of water on the Assiniboine River. Yesterday, inflow upstream of the Portage Diversion was 38,000 cubic feet per second. This figure is expected to rise well over 50,000 cubic feet per second in the next two to four days, even before the additional rain is taken into account.

The increased water presents a serious challenge for the Portage Diversion and the upper Assiniboine River, and rapid upgrades to both the diversion channel and the river dikes downstream of Portage will be required to help manage these record flows. The required upgrades to the Assiniboine dikes will need to be done in a very short period of time in areas of limited access and difficult working environments, especially in the rain. Manitoba is enlisting every available resource in an attempt to manage these flows in a controlled way. On the recommendation of officials, the Premier (Mr.

Selinger) spoke to the Prime Minister yesterday and requested the assistance of the Canadian Armed Forces to reinforce and m onitor diking from Portage

May 9, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1667 to Headingley. The Prime Minister immediately pledged their full support and co-operation. Immediately after this call was made, our officials began work to co-ordinate with the military who are arriving in stages today and tomorrow. Our officials worked throughout the night to assess the situation and the challenges that we face. Even with the planned upgrades to the dikes and the diversion channel, we will be facing water beyond the capacity of the system, and we're finalizing options to maintain this increased water in a controlled way.

I can also advise the House that the Premier is in Portage meeting with the Canadian Forces personnel as we speak and was in Brandon yesterday where the City has declared a state of local emergency. Crews in Brandon were working rapidly to raise the existing dikes by another two feet in preparation for the heavy rains. Precautionary evacuations of around 900 homes began in an in–at–in–pardon me–in an at-risk part of Brandon th is morning, and further evacuations are a possibility. The Province has provided 130,000 sandbags to Brandon, and they have requested 50,000 more.

The Premier confirmed with the mayor that we will provide any and all additional assistance requested by the City. I would like to note that for administrative purposes we're declaring a localized provincial state of emergency for the city and RM of Portage la Prairie and for the RM s of Woodlands, Rosser, St. François Xavier, Headingley, Cartier, Macdonald and Grey. This is not related in any way to the military presence in the area; rather it is to support provincial and municipal flood-fighting efforts.

I would like to stress that the situation on the Assiniboine River is evolving very quickly and that every effort is being made to keep local leaders, residents and the general public apprised of the latest information as quickly as possible. Finally, I would like to take–pardon me–I would also like to make the House aware that there is also a significant flood risk and the flood-fighting activity is ongoing in and around many areas of the province, particularly in the areas of Lake St. Martin and with the communities of Lake St. Martin and Little Saskatchewan and the surrounding communities in that area.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for the latest updates. My colleagues and I would like to also extend our sincere thanks to the federal government for making members of the Canadian Forces available to assist with flood efforts. Their assistance was very beneficial during the flood in '97, and we know their efforts will be greatly appreciated this spring as well. As noted, there have been significant developments on the flood front since last week; first of all, the precautionary evacuations being undertaken as Brandon–in Brandon as we speak.

Work continues to raise or to reinforce dikes in communities like Brandon and the rural municipalities of Cartier, St. François Xavier and Headingley, and thanks go out to the countless volunteers who have been helping with those efforts in recent days. Many along the Portage Diversion and around Lake Manitoba are also carefully watching the flood forecast to see how they will be impacted by the current flooding and the possibility of more rain in the days ahead. Similarly, many are evaluating the impacts of continued runoff in the Parkland area and regions further north.

Travel remains problematic in many regions due to the many, many road closures. As always, we hope that Manitobans will proceed with an abundance of caution when it comes to the flood. Hundreds of men and women are working diligently on flood preparation measures across the province, and it is imperative that they be allowed to do the work without interference. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to speak to the minister's statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have permission? [Agreed] Mr. Gerrard: Mr.

Speaker, I join other members of the Chamber in expressing a concern to the people in Brandon who are now undergoing an evacuation. The situation there is clearly pretty critical. People are working very hard trying to make sure that the water–the river doesn't overflow the dikes that have been put up, and let us hope that the water can be contained, but it is certainly a worrisome situation.

The situation along the Assiniboine River between Portage la Prairie and Winnipeg is also of significant concern, and I was out there and–on the weekend and seeing the hous es being threatened, the Assiniboine River in places going over the banks and flooding farmers' fields. And certainly it is a significant concern already, and with the expected increase in flow, it is going to be a, you know, a

1668 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 9, 2011 major issue that we'll have to watch very carefully. And we're very pleased th at the Canadian Forces personnel are coming and will be helping, because it's certainly needed. I also want to speak briefly to the situation at Lake St. Martin, which the minister alluded to, because I was there on the weekend as well. The major dike on the community which was put up appears to have failed. The water was essentially as high inside the dike as outside. There are large numbers of houses which are threatened.

There are many roads where the water has gone over or threatening to go over. There are people being evacuated from the community, and certainly this is one of the results of having to put huge amounts of water into Lake Manitoba and the excessive water levels in Lake Manitoba. And because the water there may be going up considerably more yet in the days ahead, it is an area that needs significant attention, and I'm sure the minister will be providing that. Thank you. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to oral questions, I'd like to draw the attention of honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us today, we have Henriette Fontaine who is the mother of our clerk assistant Monique Grenier. And also we have some family members of Karine Martel, who is one of our pages. We have Elva Martel, who's her grandmother; Jules and Jeannette Gosselin, also her grandparents; Diane Collette, who's her aunt; and Michele Martel, her mother. And also in the public gallery we have with us from Grandview School, we have 17 grade 9 students under the direction of Ms. Barbara Grexton.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives (Mr. Struthers). And also we have seated in the public gallery from Westgate Mennonite Collegiate, we have 68 grade 9 students under the direction of Ms. Heidi Thiessen. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Wolseley (Mr. Altemeyer). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you all here today. * (13:50) ORAL QUESTIONS Brandon Flooding Mitigation Strategies Mr.

Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): I want to thank the Minister of Emergency Measures for th e statement in the House today, also acknowledge the fact that we had the opportunity last evening at about 8:30 to have a conversation on the phone about the circumstances facing many Manitobans from the border of Saskatchewan all the way to Winnipeg.

I just want to ask the minister: In light of the circumstances being faced in Brandon, what appears to be higher water in that area than what had been anticipated a short time ago and the fact that to date there's been no request for military assistance in Brandon, whether he's satisfied that every step that could reasonably be taken to protect people and property in the city of Brandon is currently being taken. Hon.

Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Measures): I want to stress that the reason the request was made in terms of the Assiniboine dikes, as I did relay to the Leader of the Opposition yesterday, was the very highly specialized nature of what needs to be done. It's going to be very challenging to say the least. It will be made more challenging by the rainfall that we're anticipating, and, of cour se, our armed forces are trained and have experience and have the necessary equipment.

And I just want to put on the record, by the way, certainly I think I speak for everyone in this House and everybody across Manitoba that we've always known that the armed forces were there if we needed them. We needed them, and, as I speak, I know the Premier (Mr. Selinger) is meeting with the first contingent. We're anticipating further mobilization tomorrow, so I want to put on the record how much we, in this province, appreciate the immediate mobilization of the armed forces in that area. Assiniboine River Increasing Water Levels Mr.

Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): And we, too, would like to acknowledge the quick response of the Canadian Forces from last night's reque st to start to move into place to deal with things over the coming days.

May 9, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1669 Mr. Speaker, the information being provided yesterday, which the minister quite rightly identified as the challenges created by very high flows of water both from the Souris River and the Assiniboine and, in particular, the situation along the Assiniboine River east of the point at which the Souris River drains into the Assiniboine, is quite significant. The information being provided yesterday was that it was expected that around 49,000 cubic feet per second of water would be flowing up the Assiniboine River into the range of Portage la Prairie.

The ministerial statement now is indicating that could be well over 50,000 cubic feet per second, quite a significant increase in a short period of time. Can the minister just indicate how rapidly the situation is evolving and whether he's satisfied that all the steps that are required to be taken to deal with that water are being taken? Hon.

Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Measures): And just to complete from the first answer, Brandon has, indeed, requested assistance from the forces, and that has been conveyed to the federal government, and my understanding is that the assistance will be arriving this afternoon. Of course, many of the armed forces personnel will be stationed in Shilo. I should indicate, by the way, that it's also going to–we're going to be accessing the services of many reservists in both Manitoba and probably Saskatchewan as well.

And, in terms of the specific flows, certainly we're anticipating now above 50,000 cfs–the member's quite correct–and one of the things that we've done overnight is actually further confirm the latest weather forecast. I want to stress that the storm last weekend and the anticipated weather event that we're going to be facing over the next period of time is the prime determinant of the significant flows. As the member knows–and I'll continue with it– Controlled Dike Breaches Proposal Mr. McFadyen: And I want to thank the minister for providing the update on the deployment of the forces to Brandon.

And in connection with the events along the Assiniboine approaching Portage la Prairie, the minister has indicated the possibility of well over 50,000 cubic feet per second with the Portage Diversion having capacity of up to about 25,000, leaving significant flows of water yet to come down the Assiniboine. Can the minister indicate whether there may be any plans at all to do controlled breaches of dikes along the Assiniboine in anticipation of the amount of water now moving eastward down that river? Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, we will be finalizing the plans immediately after question period.

I also want to, by the way, on the record, thank the opposition for allowing Estimates to be rescheduled for myself and also the Minister of Water Stewardship (Ms. Melnick). We are going to be looking at a number of proposed options that could significantly enhance the capacity of the Portage Diversion beyond its current limit of capacity which is approximately 25,000 cfs. In terms of the dikes, we've put a fair amount of time, effort and resources into the ability to continue to have in around 18,000.

The member is quite right, we are facing amounts that are greater than the physical capacity of both the Assiniboine and we're looking to see what we can get out–additionally out of the Portage Diversion, and we will be looking at other options which will be finalized probably immediately after question period. And I thank the opposition again for the leave on Estimates. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Leader of Official Opposition, on a new question. Mr. McFadyen: On a new question, Mr. Speaker.

With the very significant and changing estimates of the amount of water coming down the Assiniboine River, can the minister just indicate whether controlled breaches of those dikes around Portage la Prairie is one of the options currently being considered by the government in order to divert some of that water that's making its way eastward? Mr. Ashton: Well, Mr. Speaker, I can indicate that, indeed, the preferred option in this particular case is anything that would control the flow. The member mentioned one option. I've talked about the enhancement of the Portage Diversion.

1670 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 9, 2011 We'll have a very good sense in terms of what we can get out of the Portage Diversion. And I want to stress again that the No. 1 priority that we put in place over th e last number of weeks is to maximize the capacity of the Assiniboine, and no matter what happens we will be working hard to prevent any uncontrolled breach because if you look at it, an uncontrolled breach where you have 15, 16, 17, 18,000 cfs flowing through a channel could have very significant consequences, very difficult consequences to control.

We'll be finalizing that at 2:30, and I did brief the member yesterday and I will put on the record, too, as soon as we've finalized the decision on this, I would like to offer to the Leader of the Opposition– Mr. Speaker: Order. Winnipeg Crest Level Mr. McFadyen: We will take up the minister's offer for briefings which is appreciated by all members who are representing people who are being impacted.

I just want to ask the minister: We are aware of the circumstances that could be faced in municipalities to the west of Winnipeg where the Assiniboine River is narrower and quite windy and the impacts in those communities which look as though they could be fairly serious and certainly the efforts being undertaken to shore things up and to protect people and property in those areas.

In addition to that, I wonder if the minister can just provide a current estimate of how high the Assiniboine is expected to rise within the city of Winnipeg and what the timing of that crest may be, based on currently available information. Mr. Ashton: I can provide the detailed information perhaps at the briefing. What I can indicate is that the real pressure is not within the city of Winnipeg. What has happened, of course, is that the Assiniboine has already crested. The Red has crested.

Having said that, we have– we've given full briefing–full information to the City of Winnipeg and we will be working with them. We're not taking anything for granted over the next 24 to 48 hours. But clearly, the pressure is from the Assiniboine, including Brandon, but when you're downstream of Brandon, you're also dealing with the inflows from the Souris. You're dealing with a very dynamic situation. And we will have, probably, immediately after question period, some decisions I will undertake to immediately communicate to the leaders of the parties in the House.

And I will undertake also to provide detailed briefings to MLAs from the impacted areas. I mentioned this yesterday, but if the members from Brandon or members from any of the constituencies around the Assiniboine would like more detailed information, we'll provide it. * (14:00) Mr. McFadyen: Just in order to provide some clarity, the minister has indicated that there has been a crest already of the Assiniboine River in Winnipeg, and we are aware that the river did rise and has dropped somewhat since that time.

The question is whether there is expected to be a second crest of the Assi niboine River within Winnipeg and, if so, what is the anticipated height of that crest. Mr. Ashton: I can indicate that we will provide the detailed information. Much of our attention over the last 24 to 48 hours has been on the development of contingency plans.

And when I referenced in my comments that staff have been working around the clock, I just can't say enough about how we appreciate not only the efforts of our provincial staff but municipal staff, the armed forces and the many federal staff that are involved with this, and, quite frankly, we've got– retirees have come in, many of the consulting engineering companies. We've been working around the clock on those contingencies, but I will undertake at the briefing to provide the maximum information possible. I can indicate that what I mentioned yesterday may be the case today.

A lot of our key staff are out in the field right now as we speak. But I will certainly undertake, with the fullest information I have, to make sure that members of the Legislature are fully informed on developments, not

May 9, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1671 only today but in terms of the future critical number of days. Brandon Flooding Military Assistance Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon West): First of all, I would like to extend my thanks to all the volunteers, EMO staff, City of Brandon personnel and provincial employees for their efforts in controlling the extraordinary flood waters in the city of Brandon. We do know, Mr. Speaker, that military assistance has been approved by the federal government, and we now know, as of today, that that assistance has been asked for by the City of Brandon.

Can the minister tell me today, please, the number of personnel that will be deployed to the city of Brandon and how long will it take for the military to stage the appropriate response? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Measures): I can indicate, in terms of Brandon and in terms of the Assiniboine dikes, that we've asked the military to focus on the completion o f c e r t a i n t a s k s . I t w i l l b e v e r y m u c h u p t o t h e military to determine how many personnel, what equipment is required to do that.

I can indicate, certainly, from the most recent information on the Assiniboine dikes that in that area we're already looking at probably 300-plus armed service personnel mobilized within 24 hours–that'll be later today– and I have every confidence that they will be able to mobilize just as quickly for Brandon. I can't give an exact number largely because the scope of what we're dealing with will be in co-operation with the emergency management officials, both the municipality in Brandon and municipalities around the Assiniboine and EMO and other departments that are involved.

But I can tell you one thing: The military stepped up to the plate. They are there on the Assiniboine. I have no doubt they'll be there for Brandon as well. Municipal Flooding Request Responsibility for Military Assistance Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon West): That fits in to my second question very well. We do know that other municipalities surrounding Brandon are being adversely affected by these extraordinary flood waters. If there should be a request of a municipality other than the city of Brandon currently, how is that request made? Who is it made through, and, Mr.

Speaker, is it the Province that's going to make sure that military personnel will be available to those municipalities, or is it the municipality themselves that have to make the request? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Measures): Essentially, it's a combination of factors. In the case of the Assiniboine dikes, the department which is responsible for constructing the dikes–which is MIT, my department–is going to be co-ordinating the construction work in that particular case. The indications from MIT, in consultation with Water Stewardship, was that we would need that specialized assistance.

Each case is taken on its own merit. We are dealing with the federal protocol, but I can tell you one thing: What's also appreciated here is not only the response of the armed forces, but the Premier (Mr. Selinger) had made this contact with the Prime Minister during an election. He took the time–the Prime Minister I'm talking about here–to actually offer the assistance. I believe the communication from the Prime Minister's office was made within three minutes of the Premier making that request.

We've had similar co-operation on Brandon, and if there is further need, I have every confidence that it will be provided. Brandon Flooding Evacuation Plan and Resources Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon West): Yesterday there was a mandatory evacuation order for homeowners and businesses in the city of Brandon. As we have heard, the threat is far from over and the evacuation may, in fact, be in the–it's set in for an extended period of time.

Can the minister inform this House now if any evacuation centres have been necessary, and what plans are there if the evacuation order is needed for that extended period of time for the individuals who have been evacuated? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Measures): This member knows from his time in the municipal office in Brandon, each municipality has its own emergency plan. We obviously have taken a precautionary measure in

1672 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 9, 2011 terms of the evacuation notice. We feel that's important. It does not mean that there is going to be a failure of the dike necessarily, but these are the precautionary measures that are part of the plan. I can get the detailed information for the member. In fact, I will add that, if the member is interested in a direct briefing, to make sure we provide that, along with the member for Brandon East (Mr. Caldwell), who I know has been asking similar questions.

And I thank the member for the question, but I can tell you we–every municipality in this province has an emergency plan, including for evacuations of this kind, and I have every confidence that the City of Brandon, working with EMO, will be able to do the right thing for the people in Brandon. Assiniboine River Flood Forecast Gauge Failures Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to thank the EMO people and volunteers around the province working on these flooding issues, as well, but I noticed that in the May 6th flood bulletin it was announced that the Assiniboine River forecast had been revised and that record flows were now being forecast to the Brandon area between May 12th and the 14th. The bulletin then went on to state that the forecast adjustments were needed because of an inaccurate reading from a faulty gauge on the Qu'Appelle River in Saskatchewan. I just wonder if the Minister of Water Stewardship (Ms.

Melnick) could inform the House when she and her department first learned of this faulty gauge and by whom did they hear from the– whom informed them of the information. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Measures): Well, Mr. Speaker, I do want to stress one thing. There was an adjustment in the forecast related to the gauge, which is located in Saskatchewan. It's operated, I believe, by the federal government. One of the challenges in that area in eastern Saskatchewan, as is the case in Westman, is that we're dealing with unprecedented water levels and flows.

We did adjust the forecast, but what I can indicate is the significant adjustment in the forecast came from the predictions of the upcoming weather event. That's really what's impacting on the current situation both in Brandon and between Portage and Winnipeg on the Assiniboine. So, notwithstanding that faulty gauge, the vast majority of the challenge we're dealing with and the flow we're dealing with is related to that precipitation, and this is something we did flag several weeks ago. I want to put on the record that we're dealing with a 50 per cent greater volume– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr.

Maguire: I'm sure the minister knows, Mr. Speaker, that accurate information, accurate data, is essential in developing sound flood management strategies, and so we would assume that there's a– that the provincial government uses readings from a number of different gauges when it develops its flood forecast.

And so I wonder if the Minister of Water Stewardship could explain how many gauges are used to calculate flow levels for the Assiniboine River and how often they'r e read and if she could inform the House as to what fail-safe system is in place to ensure the accuracy of these forecasts should one of these gauges fail in the future. Mr. Ashton: Well, I want to indicate that we, indeed, have been mobilizing staff. There are normally two teams checking gauges; we've had 13. This error in the gauge was detected, and, again, this is something that is important to note.

I want to stress, though, that the key challenge in the Assiniboine is the fact we have 50 per cent more volume–that's the estimate in the watershed– 50 per cent more volume than the flood record in 1976 and combined with a very significant storm that we're going to be seeing over the next number of days and combined with the previous storm from the previous week, that is what is pushing the Assiniboine River and our flood defences to the limits.

So, the gauge, indeed, did result in a minor change to the forecast late last week, but what we're dealing with now is not the result of that gauge or any other gauge; it's the result of the very significant precipitation we're going to see over much of southern Manitoba and in eastern Saskatchewan over the next number of days. Mr. Maguire: Well, Mr. Speaker, in the minister's flood reports there's been co nsiderable adjustment to

May 9, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1673 the flood through the flow levels expected on the Assiniboine River as it moves through Manitoba, and as the minister has pointed out, on May the 4th flows in the Assiniboine River at Brandon were predicted to be close to 26,000 cfs. Two days later, their forecasted was revised upward to significantly–to 32,000 cfs, and on Sunday afternoon, yesterday, 37,500, a difference of 11,500 cfs. And, so, Mr. Speaker, in order to protect the people along the way, is the Minister of Water Stewardship (Ms.

Melnick) confident that there will not be future challenges with the systems being used to calculate the critical flow on these rivers? * (14:10) Mr. Ashton: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think the key thing to really note here is the degree to which we're dealing with a very geographic, widespread flood situation. We've been saying for weeks now that we anticipate it will be also a prolonged flood season. We have seen the pressures just in terms of states of local emergency. The maximum we achieved in the flood of '09 was 16 states of local emergency.

We had, at one time, 33 states of local emergency and that was early on in the flood season. We have had our staff working around the clock. We have increased our ability to be able to pick up data over the last period of time. We've invested in that. We've added–and I want to stress again, my colleague the Minister of Water Stewardship, her department has added an additional number of crews from 2 to 13. We are increasing our data collection and a lot of this is really the evolving circumstances– Mr. Speaker: Order. Assiniboine River Flood Forecast Gauge Use (Headingley) Mrs.

Mavis Taillieu (Morris): And I just want to also thank the municipal leaders, the provincial departments and all the people that have been working very hard on reinforcing the dikes along the Assiniboine. Mr. Speaker, we've heard about a gauge in Saskatchewan that may have been responsible for some improper forecasting along the Assiniboine River levels. There is a gauge at the Trans-Canada Highway and Lido Plage Road, and this is basically right in the heart of where the flooding is taking place today, as we speak, and has been over the weekend.

And people in the area are wondering why that gauge wasn't used until just recently so they could really very accurately look at the levels that are coming up in their backyards, Mr. Speaker. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Measures): Well, certainly, Mr. Speaker, I'll undertake to respond to the detailed question the member has. I can indicate that the gauges are part of what we look at that measures, obviously, the immediate flows.

The key thing we're looking at right now, I really want to stress again, is a very significant storm that is going to impact in this province over the next number of days, and that is essentially what is driving the flows in the Assiniboine to this current flow. I also want to stress that we have maximized our use of the Shellmouth Dam this year. If it hadn't been for the Shellmouth Dam, we would have been looking at several feet of higher levels on the Assiniboine as we speak.

It's made a huge difference, and it certainly made a difference in combination with the Portage Diversion and the other aspects of our flood control systems, including the floodway. So I will undertake to look at the specific gauge, but I do want to stress the key factor we're dealing with right now is the– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mrs. Taillieu: Mr.

Speaker, we recognize that the weather conditions are seri ously going to affect the levels of the river, but, as we know, the levels of the Assiniboine River, the grading from Brandon to Winnipeg, there's a steep grade down and, as well, the river is very winding and narrow and wider in some areas. So it really is important for local people to have that local readings of gauges in the local area which really reflects the level that they are experiencing.

So, I'm just, again, expressing what an emailer has said to me today about a gauge that's been there since 1997 but really has not been used in this flood to adequately predict the le vels that are increasingly coming up in people's backyards and encroaching on their properties, and I'd like to just ask the minister if he wouldn't look into the situation. Thank you. Mr. Ashton: I will make sure we follow up on that, and if we are to arrange a briefing, I will undertake

1674 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 9, 2011 to get a direct response to the member at the briefing which–I just want to stress we are–we have a lot of staff that are out there in the field right now. It may be difficult to reach some of them, but, certainly, by tomorrow I'll undertake to get a specific response on that specific gauge. Cattle Producers Effect of High Water Levels Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, cattle producers in the Westlake area of my constituency and many other areas of Manitoba were hard hit in the recent storm that brought rain, heavy snow and blizzard conditions.

I know some of my colleagues have also received calls from producers who experienced similar storm-related issues. Does the minister have an estimate of how many cattle producers were impacted and how many cattle were lost in the storm? Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): I appreciate the question from the member for Ste. Rose. Staff in MAFRI are hard at work in conjunction with producers and with the Manitoba beef producers and other groups to assess that situation. Yet, again, a number of Manitoba farmers found themselves up against the wall in a very tough position.

We don't intend to leave these farm ers hanging, Mr. Speaker. We intend to assess this–the damage that has been done, take stock and then move forward from there. Mr. Briese: Mr. Speaker, I and many of my colleagues and municipal offices throughout the western side of the province have had many calls related to the cattle losses from that storm. I ask again: Has the minister received similar calls and has he got an estimate of the total losses? Mr.

Struthers: We've been receiving phone calls through the department, through our GO offices, which I'm very pleased with, because I want to make sure that cattle ranchers and others hook up with the very fine folks in our MAFR I offices so that we can get–so we can all get our heads around the kind of damage that was done in that storm, Mr. Speaker. We are working to assess this situation. I've been very clear that we're not going to leave farmers hanging out to dry on this. We're moving forward.

We need to take stock of the damage that was done, and we do that in conjunction with the ranchers and others and with the farm leadership who I've been in contact with as well, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Briese: Mr. Speaker, in addition to those challenges, high water levels continue to pose problems. Westlake area ranchers have been unable to move their cattle to higher ground because of road closures and wet conditions. Mr. Speaker, ranchers are desperately trying to cope with the results of the storm and the high water levels. It's having a tremendous impact on their families. It's a very stressful situation.

What actions has the minister taken to address the feed shortages and the necessary movement of cattle to other areas of the province? Mr. Struthers: Again, I appreciate that question from the member for Ste. Rose, Mr. Speaker, and I appreciate the help of the member for Lakeside (Mr. Eichler) and Emerson (Mr. Graydon) last week in dealing with an issue in the Interlake, in the Shoal lakes area. Those kind of si tuations are prevalent all around the province, in every region. We want to make sure that people who are in need get contacted with people within MAFRI.

As a matter of fact, this morning I was on a conference call with the le adership of KAP, the pork producers, Manitoba beef producers, egg farmers, chicken growers, in a conference call to talk about people who we can set up with each other to talk about real solutions, practical things we can do to get feed to the animals that we need to get feed to, Mr. Speaker. Thank you. Children in Care Hotel Lodging Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, since the NDP government has came to power, a record number of families in this province have been broken up.

When the NDP took power, there were just over 5,000 kids in care in the province, and since the NDP have taken power, that number has skyrocketed to over 9,000 kids in care. Some of these kids have been warehoused in downtown hotels and, at times, without adult supervision. Mr. Speaker, can the minister of Child and Family Services answer why he's been neglecting children by having them unsupervised and in hotels? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Family Services and Consumer Affairs): Well, Mr. Speaker, the unfortunate record of children in hotels

May 9, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1675 in this province is well known to members of the public and members of this House, and, indeed, I believe it was in August of 2006, it was recorded there were 166 children in hotels on the particular day. And as a result of a recruitment strategy, we've been able to reduce those numbers, and it appears that we are been able–we've been able to sustain that reduction to what I understand is an average of–a monthly average of two per day. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, the NDP's track record of breaking up families is appalling.

In 2006, there were over 6,600 kids taken by the NDP from families. In 2007, that number was over 7,200, and the most recent numbers show there were 9,100 kids that had been taken from their families by the NDP. Manitobans know that some of these kids are still being warehoused in hotels by the NDP. Some are missing school, and on occasion they've been left to wander unsupervised alone on the streets. Mr. Speaker, why is the NDP minister of Child and Family Services neglecting vulnerable children? * (14:20) Mr.

Mackintosh: Well, on the one hand, he ends with this question about neglecting vulnerable children, and at the beginning of this question, he talks about why are we increasing the number who are taken away from abusive and negligent parents. So, you know, he argues both sides and, of course, that's the politics of child welfare for this minister. He'll get up in the House half the days in here and say, why didn't you have those children in care? The next day he gets up and says, why are the children in care? And we know he's interfered in individual cases.

He said he interviewed the parents where there was a decision and advice from experts that the children should be taken away. He said: I interviewed them; I think that child should go back; there's no abuse here. He made a decision. He doesn't wait for Dr. Charlie Ferguson or the courts to make a determination, or the Winnipeg police. There are professionals that are doing their level best, sometimes under very difficult circumstances, to save the children in this province and, Mr. Speaker, there are children in care because there are children who need to be protected in this province. Mr. Gerrard: Mr.

Speaker, there are far too many children in care in this province because this government is not standing up and supporting families. The numbers show that the member for St. Johns has mismanaged this portfolio more than anyone else in history. Since he's become minister, the number of kids taken by the NDP has increased by 2,491. Under the NDP, thousands of kids have lost their brothers and sisters because the NDP have been too busy playing suburban politics to provide support for struggling families in inner Winnipeg.

When will the minister for Child and Family Services admit that the NDP have broken up far too many families and neglected inner Winnipeg for far too long? Mr. Mackintosh: Well, Mr. Speaker, sometimes families have to be broken up if it's to save the life of a child who is being sexually abused by a parent. You know, it's dismaying to see what parents can't do for and do to children every day in this portfolio.

But that is why there are people in the front lines who actually see the faces of these children, who see the blood and the bruises, who have the fortitude to go out there and go into a family situation and seize a child. But to get up in this House and just say, just send all the children back home.

There are plans in this province, thankfully, as a result of a federal government that–and I commend minister–former Minister Strahl for making that necessary investment in First Nations prevention, because we do have to help families who are showing early signs of trouble, and I congratulate them for finally helping the Province to move ahead more upstream and get the children safer at home. Health Sciences Centre Dialysis Unit Expansion Ms. Sharon Blady (Kirkfield Park): Mr. Speaker, every year more than 275 Manitobans start chronic dialysis therapy to stay alive.

Currently, over 1,000 patients receive renal replacement therapy through the Manitoba Renal Program and an additional 4,000 are followed through the MRP renal health clinics. Could the Minister of Health please inform the House what our government plans to do to continue the development of the provincial renal health framework? Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): We were very pleased to be at the Health Sciences

1676 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 9, 2011 Centre today with representatives from the Manitoba Renal Program to officially open a $5.5-million dialysis expansion. That is an expansion of 10 seats that will enable 60 additional patients to be dialysed there. But, Mr. Speaker, at the same time and arguably more importantly, we also initiated a first-time-ever pilot project, a nurse-led clinic in Thompson to, through the use of Telehealth, allow people to have access to specialists and te ams that will, hopefully, prevent more people from needing dialysis or at the very least to delay their need for dialysis.

For every seat that we invest in in dialysis, we need to double our efforts on prevention, and we're committed to do that. Red River Floodway Flow Levels and Capacity Information Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, can the minister indicate to this House what the current flows are in the Winnipeg floodway? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Measures): Mr. Speaker, I–it was hard to make out the member. He was very quiet-spoken which probably caught me–caught a lot of us by surprise, but the other day in Estimates I was asked to speak up so it cuts both ways.

I think he made reference to flows in the floodway and I can provide the detailed information to the member on flows in the floodway. Mr. Schuler: Mr. Speaker, could the minister also provide to us what the current capacity is of the Winnipeg floodway? Mr. Ashton: It's sufficient to protect to a one-in-700-year flood. I can indicate we're nowhere close to that on the Red River this year. The Red, of course, has crested and it crested actually below the 2009 levels. So I can provide the cfs.

I can provide the full details in the cfs but I can indicate that the–with the redesigned flow there was more than enough excess capacity in the floodway. This year again we invested in this province very significantly in flood mitigation, close to a billion dollars over the last 10 years. Portage Diversion Dike Upgrades and Capacity Information Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if I could ask the minister, as well, in regards to the flows on the Portage Diversion: Coming in from Arthur-Virden last night, I noticed that they're adding more dirt to the top of the floodway dikes or the diversion dikes at Portage la Prairie, and if he could elaborate on that, and, as well, it's–from the flood updates we've been getting, it looks like about 20 to 25–or 20 to 20,500 cubic feet per second going through the Portage Diversion. I wonder if–and it seems to the top, yet they're talking about 25,000 cfs being available.

Can he indicate what work is being undertaken and how much more than the 20,500 he thinks they can put through the diversion? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Measures): I thank the member for the question. There's two elements, obviously, we're dealing with. One is the capacity of the Portage Diversion. I can indicate that the normal rated capacity is up to about 25,000 cfs. We have been looking at options which we'll be finalizing probably within the next hour or so. We're meeting after question period on ways of increasing that capacity.

On the Assiniboine the normal capacity was in the 15,000 cfs range. Because of the additional work we did on dikes this year and the repairs we did on those dikes, the investment of approximately $20 million thus far–this is prior to the events of the last 24 hours–we feel we could get upwards of 18,000 cfs or more. Those details are being finalized as we speak and our goal, again, is to maximize capacity both in the river and– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr.

Maguire: I wonder if the minister could just elaborate a little bit more in regards to how he expects to get over 20,500 cubic feet through that floodway given that that's the maximum that's been coming through it in any of the reports we've received this spring already, and how much more he expects to have to build the dikes on the Portage Diversion to get to 25,000 cfs? Mr. Ashton: Yes, the normal capacity is 25,000. We are working right now with the best engineering advice that's available to determine if we can increase that capacity.

May 9, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1677 When you've got that surge of water that's–can be coming through the Assiniboine, primarily because of the significant weather event that's coming up combined with the pre-existing flows, that is the goal. We've got some of the best engineering experience and expertise anywhere in this province to begin with and we've been working around the clock. And I want to put on the record, by the way, we pulled in retired staff, some of the best consulting engineers, some of the best engineers in the Department of Water Stewardship, MIT and all across government.

Right now, as we speak, they've been working round the clock on potential solutions. We're going to try and maximize the capacity through the Portage Diversion because that, again, will take some of the pressure that we know is going to exist– Mr. Speaker: Order. * (14:30) Lake Manitoba Water Levels Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, could the minister tell us what the current level is of Lake Manitoba and why has his department stopped publishing that number? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Measures): In terms of Lake Manitoba, we flagged the high levels. I can get the detail.

We– the way it works on the 24-hour basis is we get our situation report, updated situation report just prior to the press conference which we usually hold–I believe we're holding one at 3 o'clock. I can get the latest information. I do want to indicate though, and I want to put it on the record again, we have been saying for weeks there are going to be significant high lake levels in virtually all lakes in Manit oba, particularly in Lake Manitoba.

And tonight in Warren, I believe, we're having a meeting with all of the impacted municipalities and communities, because there are both First Nation and Northern Affairs communities around Lake Manitoba. We have been preparing maps that show where we're likely to see impacts this summer and fall if there's significant wind and storm events. We're going to be working with those communities around Lake Manitoba because we know there are a significant number of homes and cottages that could be– Mr. Speaker: Order. Time for oral questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS eChart Manitoba Mr.

Mohinder Saran (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, we are entering into a new phase of health care and I am proud that The Maples is playing an important

part in it. On March 9th, 2011, the Province launched the first electronic health-record system known as eChart Manitoba at Kildonan Medical Centre at Seven Oaks General Hospital. We know that time is invaluable to giving patients the best possible chance at recovery; eChart Manitoba is a new tool for physicians to make sure patients get the care they need as quickly as possible. With this new system, health-care providers can see patients' key information instantly.

This also means the doctor can check things such as laboratory results in one health-care centre, even if the tests were originally done somewhere else. I am very pleased that Kildonan Medical Centre is one of the first sites to participate in eChart Manitoba. By July 2011, we hope that this system will be used in 30 sites across Manitoba. For doctors and nurses to do the best job possible, they need to have the information available when they need it, quickly and securely.

Patients' privacy is closely protected and only the health-care providers who need it wi ll be able to access the patients' personal information. More and more we are using developing technology to improve our quality of life. This impacts every Manitoban because no matter who we are, we have all had family or friends in the hospital at some point in time. Those professionals now have another means to support us even further. With the new eChart system, we are taking the best possible care of our patients. Thank you. Herm Martens Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): Mr.

Speaker, I stand today to honour one of my constituents for his outstanding contributions to our community. Herm Martens was one of four recipients of the Capturing Opportunities 2011 Award, specifically, in the community leadership category. It was no surprise

1678 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 9, 2011 that his efforts have been recognized by our province as he is truly a valued community leader. For many years, Herm Martens has been a dedicated volunteer in his hometown of Rosenort. He has been a leader in many positions throughout our community and has made a positive impact throughout the region. In 1995, Mr. Martens became the reeve of the RM of Morris and served on council until 2010. He chaired the Pembina Valley Water Co-op, the Red River Basin Commission, and served on the advisory committee for the Manitoba Floodway Authority.

Herm Martens manages a large farm operation, is a director of the Manitoba Egg Marketing Board, and a hockey coach. He also donates his time towards his church and the Mennonite Central Committee auction. The Outstanding Community Leadership Award is given to an individual who has made significant and notable contributions to the betterment of their community or region. Recipients have served as a catalyst for positive action and have exhibited the highest standard of community leadership, dedication, ability and innovation.

Award recipients were honoured at the Capturing Opportunities celebration banquet on Wednesday, April 20th, 2011 at the Keystone Centre in Brandon. They received a commemorative glass award as well as a $1,0 00 cash contribution to a community organization of their choice. I am also pleased to announce that Herm was recently honoured with the Certificate of Merit from the University of Manitoba's Agriculture Diploma Program in recognition of leadership with agricultural organizations and outstanding service to the community at large. Mr.

Speaker, I would like this House to join me in congratulating Herm Martens for his co ntributions to the town of Rosenort, the municipality of Morris and the province of Manitoba. We are grateful for such dedication. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Glenwood School 100th Anniversary Hon. Nancy Allan (Minister of Education): This year marks the 100th anniversary of the opening of Glenwood School, an elementary school located in the heart of the co nstituency of St. Vital.

The school will mark this historic occasion with two special events: an open house and family barbecue at the school on May 19th, with hundreds of alumni, Glenwood staff and families in attendance, and a reception the following day at Glenwood Community Club. This is an opportunity for Glenwood students, both young and old, to meet, share memories and tour the school. Throughout the decades, Glenwood School has contributed to the memories and life journeys of thousands of students. It has been the heart of St. Vital, a community that has seen a great deal of change over the years.

Glenwood School has served our province well, preparing generations of young Manitobans to be productive members of our community. From these humble beginnings at Glenwood School, generations of Manitobans have gone on to make significant contributions as citizens of Manitoba, Canada and the world. Glenwood School provides a wonderful example of how schools are not only places where we send our children to receive an education, but part of the very fabric of thriving communities.

For 100 years, Glenwood School has brought together Manitobans, from all walks of life, to share their experiences and forge a common bond of citizenship. I look forward to celebrating this historic event with alumni staff and Glenwood School's many families, and I ask all members of the House to join me in congratulating Glenwood School on 100 years of outstanding service to my community of St. Vital and to our province. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Community Engagement Party and Volunteer Awards Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): Mr.

Speaker, I was pleased to attend the fourth annual Community Engagement Party and Volunteer Awards evening that was held in Warren Collegiate Institute on April the 16th. Over 180 people attended the event, representing 25 to 30 community organizations. The Woodlands Community Development Corporation was commendable in hosting the evening. This year's theme was "Volunteers Feed Community Spirit," which highlighted the significance of being a volunteer.

Since the event was focused on volunteers in the community, 44 students from Warren Collegiate Institute were on hand to assist with different aspects of the evening, including the decorations, meal preparation and cleanup.

May 9, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1679 Several individuals and groups were recognized for the role they play as volunteers in the community. Bev Stewart, Eilene Myskiw, Trevor Procter, Jody Carriere and Nancy Dumas were all recognized for their volunteer service, and Viviane Riding was the recipient of the 2011 Volunteer Service Award. The 2011 Youth Engagement Award Winners were Ashleigh MacMillan and Courtney MacMillan.

Meanwhile, the Woodlands District Ladies were recipients of the 2011 Community Service Award with Warre n Hardware and West Interlake Trading Company also being recognized for their efforts. David Northcott, executive director of Winnipeg Harvest, was the keynote speaker for the evening, delivered an address that focused on the purpose of Winnipeg Harvest and the importance of volunteers in our communities. Prior to his speech, Mr. Northcott spoke with students about the importance of community involvement and significance of the Winnipeg Harvest.

His message of the ripple effect and the value of continued community involvement must have resonated with the audience, as guests donated two large containers full of tins for the bins to go to Winnipeg Harvest. Mr. Speaker, volunteers are the heart of every community, and it is important to take time to thank them for their service. The Community Engagement Party was a great way to acknowledge the many volunteers who give their time and talent to community organizations. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Collège Béliveau Fashion Fundraiser Mr. Bidhu Jha (Radisson): Mr.

Speaker, a few days ago, my wife, Raj, and I had the pleasure of attending a fundraiser fashion show at Collège Béliveau, a French immersion high school in my constituency of Radisson. I was personally invited by Mr. Ben Lee whose daughter, Katie, is on the graduation organizing committee. The aim of the show was to raise funds for their upcoming graduation celebrations in June. "Circus" was the theme of the fashion show, and it was a wonderful opportunity for the students to showcase their creativity to their friends and family.

The students' ability to blend together such an imaginative fashion show, that combined drama with humour on one stage, was really quite amazing. There was a silent auction included in the prize donated by local businesses and committee members. I was also invited to contribute, and my wife, Raj, donated a sari and some household items for their silent auction. One of the highlights of the evening was getting to see how well all these students get involved in this undertaking and work together. In all, 30 grade 12 and four grade 11 students collaborated to put on a magnificent and entertaining fundraiser.

They were also assisted by two teachers, Michel Roy and Melanie Cloutier. At the end, it was clear that success of the fashion show succeeded even their expectations. Principal Alain Michalik and Vice-Principal Paula Meyer surely have a lot to be proud of. * (14:40) I would like to congratulate all the staff and students who organized and participated in this year's fashion show fundraiser for all their hard work. It was a great pleasure for–to attend this evening, Mr. Speaker. I look forward to next year's fashion show. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask leave to have the names of the staff and students who organized and participated in this fashion show included with this statement in the Hansard. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave for names to be recorded in Hansard? [Agreed] Collège Béliveau Fashion Show Fundraiser Principal: Alain Michalik Organizers: Elliot Sloan, Celine Peloquin. Supervisors: Teachers - Michel Roy, Mélanie Cloutier. Student Participants: Advertisements and Ticket Sales: Holly Lefteruk. Silent Auction: Katie Lee. MCs: Paul Esteves, Savanah Olson.

Models: Cyrus Gervais-Tourangeau, Bassem Migally, Shane Gingera, Lauren Girard, Lyndon Cheys, Cassidy Yonza, Christian Samborksi, Megan Heide, Scott Desrosiers, Kr isten Massicotte, Chelsea Lafreniere, Cameron Nault, Jennifer Butler, Breanna Gibson, Nicole Martin, Bromlei Daley, Mallory Trudel, Paul Blandford, Rayna Masterton, Brayden

1680 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 9, 2011 Cline, Nick Roy, Michelle Van Wyk, Jesse Labossiere. Grade 11 Student Participants: Alec Magnifico, Jeff Hak, Stephen Hak, Kunle Tijani. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on House business. Hon. Jennifer Howard (Government House Leader): On House business. In light of the flooding on the Assiniboia, I wonder if you would–Assiniboine River–I wonder if you'd canvass the House to see if you can move Estimates to accommodate staff in Water Stewardship and Infrastructure and Transportation.

Would you canvass the House to see if there's agreement to change the Estimates sequence as follows, and I'll table the new sequence for the information of the House: that the Estimates for the Department of Local Government be considered in the Chamber today, May 9th, 2011; that the Estimates of the Department of Healthy Living, Youth and Seniors be considered in room 254 today, and upon conclusion, to be followed by the Estimates of the Department of Health; that the Estimates of the Department of Housing and Community Development be considered today in room 255; that the Estimates of the Department of Water Stewardship to be moved following the Estimates of the Department of Family Services and Consumer Affairs in the Chamber; and that the Estimates of the Department of Infrastructure and Transportation be moved following the Estimates of Sport in room 255.

Mr.

Speaker: Is there an agreement to change the Estimates sequence as follows: that the Estimates for the Department of Local Government be considered in the Chamber today, on May 9th, 2011; that the Estimates of the Department of Healthy Living, Youth and Seniors be considered in room 254 today, and upon conclusion, to be followed by the Estimates of the Department of Health; that the Estimates of the Department of Housing and Community Development be considered today in room 255; that the Estimates of the Department of Water Stewardship to be moved following the Estimates of the Department of Family Services and Consumer Affairs in the Chamber; that the Estimates of the Department of Infrastructure and Transportation be moved following the Estimates of Sport in room 255.

Is there agreement? [Agreed] The Government House Leader, on further House business. Ms. Howard: Yes, Mr. Speaker, on House business. We're prepared to move into the Committee of Supply. Mr. Speaker: We will now move into Committee of Supply. And in the Chamber–Chamber will have Local Government, and 254 will be Healthy Living, Youth and Seniors, and in room 255, Housing and Community Development. So will the respective Chairs that are chairing these committees please go to the rooms that they will be chairing, please. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HEALTHY LIVING, YOUTH AND SENIORS * (14:40) Mr.

Chairperson (Mohinder Saran): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Healthy Living, Youth and Seniors. As had been previously agreed, questioning for this department will proceed in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Hon. Jim Rondeau (Minister of Healthy Living, Youth and Seniors): Before I put the questions on, Mr. Chairperson, I'll put on record where the SOS, or Signs of Suicide, evaluation that was supposed to be available is, so I've put it on the record.

Basically, a very preliminary evaluation's been done, but it's got to go in front of the students and teachers and the partners that are delivering the program. Once that happens, I understand, then it's a–it moves forward and is done. So I haven't seen the preliminary evaluation. It's got to go back to the focus groups with the teachers, students and other partners before we get it, so it shall be moved forward, but I don't have the–a specific completion date. But I assume that it's going

May 9, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1681 to be done somewhere around fall 2011, and it's in with the people who are doing the program. Mrs. Leanne Rowat (Minnedosa): Can the minister indicate to me who the preliminary groups are that are going to be working through that process? Mr. Rondeau: The preliminary groups would be the students that were involved in the–developing the program, the parents, the teachers. You want the exact school names? [interjection] Okay, can I endeavour to get that to the member? I'll get you the list of the school names that actually participated in the program. Mrs.

Rowat: When we left off on Friday, I was asking some questions with regard to Triple P. I have a few more to ask in that area. I know that there's been a significant amount of advertising for the month of January, February and March. We were able to access a freedom of information that indicated that there was around–and, I guess, a breakdown of allocation towards an ad campaign. The total was $446,000 for January, February and March. * (14:50) Can the minister indicate to me how they are measuring the impact of that ad campaign? Mr.

Rondeau: The first thing that we tried to evaluate on the advertising campaign is how much take-up and how many calls and hits we did on the website. So there was 700 phone calls received during the eight-week campaign from both members of the public and practitioners seeking more information, and a desire to enrol in a Triple P group and trying to find out specific resources in their area. In addition, a significant increase was seen in the number of visits for the Triple P Manitoba website, which was approximately 3,000 per month, which, if you take it over a eight-week period, would've been about 6,000 hits.

That's up significantly, and then what'll happen is over time we will be tracking the people who have expressed interest, what the growth in number and participation is locally, and see how it rolls out. And as we were talking about on Friday, Mr. Chair, I think it's really, really important to know that we are open to discussions on what specific criteria were evaluated in the future. We have a number of ideas and are moving forward with an evaluation of the program and we're open to discussion with the critic or any other member. Mrs.

Rowat: Can the minister indicate to me what type of criteria they're going to be using? He–open for ideas–the program's been out there for five to six years. Obviously, when they're going to be doing a campaign that's a half a million dollars, you would want to at least have the horse before the cart. What type of information were you looking for? What type of objectives did you have with that half a million dollars for the campaign? Mr.

Rondeau: Once again, it is–the Triple P program is an evidence-based program, and the key of this program is to get more and more people to utilize it, more families to utilize it, more families that are in distress or early distress or needing resources to utilize it. So our whole goal is to get the program out. It's– our goal is to get it in the way practitioners and family just go about their daily business, and so you want to know–have people know what resources are out there–whatever they are. So here's some of the anticipated things.

Of the 557 trained practitioners, 81 per cent have integrated Triple P ideas or principles into their ongoing work with families since they were trained. Many have embedded Triple P strategies or resources within another parenting group or curriculum that they were using prior to Triple P, and that was about 42 per cent. And so we're measuring with practitioners, and the major ity of practitioners also report providing Triple P to neighbours, friends, adult family members or someone else outside their normal work environment–that was 58 per cent.

So, again, by working with the workforce, embedding it, having people supported in the course of raising their children or their daily work, that's what we're trying to do. The program itself is an evidence-based program, so what we're now trying to do is get it out, people trained and people utilizing the actual Triple P program and embedding it, and it seems to be working quite effectively. Mrs. Rowat: There are a number of things. He's indicated that it's an evidence-based program. He's indicated that 81 per cent of the people that are practitioners are using the program.

But, again, it almost is hypothetical, because I don't–the minister hasn't been able to provide me with the evaluation tools that you're using to indicate

1682 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 9, 2011 that this is happening. Eighty-one per cent of practitioners are using it. How do you know that? Like, and, you know, wher e are they implementing it? What type of evaluation process are you using to determine that? Evidence base–how many parents are utilizing the program? Those types of things I can't seem to get an answ er from–with–through this process. I want to know how many, you know, parents are accessing this program. You're indicating that there's been 700–or 3,000 hits to the website, you know. What happens when they–once that happens?

Are you able to then refer them to a site within the community, th at they can access the program? It doesn't seem to be a co-ordinated effort of information. There's no evaluation that I have seen, other than the 2008 report. So I'm just, again, very confused, a significant amount of money being put into this program, so I'm going to go back one more step. I want to know–my concerns, I think, are out there and you know what they are. I want to know, Mr. Chairperson, if the Province is actually going to be funding this–or doing any more ad campaigns past this point of March. We see ads continuing to be on TV.

We're seeing, you know, the banners still on certain bench posts or buses. The minister had indicated this was an eight-week program. Obviously, it's beyond eight weeks, because we're seeing, you know, FIPPA has indicated it's a three-month program that has been funded so far. So the long and the short of it, can the minister indicate to me if there's been any funding allocated or any costs associated with Triple P in April? And, if so, May and June, et cetera; will there be budgeted amounts? Mr. Rondeau: I understand that it was a three-month–two- to three-month–or eight-week program.

Some of the ads are still out there because they haven't been replaced as yet. But it was a eight-week program that has had a little bit of carry-over. Generally, it is in the process of winding down, and so far I see that, in our area, west Winnipeg, the ads that were up there have come down. Mrs. Rowat: Is there funding going to be spent on ad–any type of an ad campaign in April? Mr. Rondeau: The eight-week campaign has wound up. I can't state categorically that there's not a bill that's outstanding. But we did do the eight-week campaign. It has wound up.

There's not a desire to have another campaign going on in the future right now. Mrs. Rowat: Can the minister indicate to me was there any money budgete d for April for any campaign ads or any type of advertisement for Triple P? Mr. Rondeau: I can look into it to see–make sure that there has been no spending committed. Mrs. Rowat: Can the minister just check with his staff, if there was any dollars allocated in April for Triple P? Mr. Rondeau: It was budgeted the previous fiscal year, and the eight-week campaign was previous fiscal year. But there might be some carry-over.

And, when I say that that's carry-over, is that some bills– some suppliers, I am informed, might be sending us a bill that was from the prev ious fiscal year for our billboards or whatever and we haven't received the bill yet, and so at the end of every fiscal year there's a little bit of a–in case a bill was late it's provided to us and we'll pay it. * (15:00) Mrs. Rowat: Okay, and thank you for the clarification from the minister. So, just to be clear, there's no ad campaign being planned for Triple P program of an extension of a program, an addition off of Triple P program?

If there is another focus through Triple P, there's nothing–no budget for a campaign that would then tie in with the Triple P? Mr. Rondeau: I'm informed that we do promote Triple P on an ongoing basis in very specific areas. And I can't state categorically that we have no spending, because we will have some spending to promote Triple P and some things that'll happen. I don't believe–it's not planned to be as extensive as what's happened. What it was meant to be is a one-time, eight-week campaign.

However, we will be promoting Triple P in specific targeted areas and specific targeted situations in the future, but not near at the same extent or financial cost. Mrs. Rowat: My understanding is that there's some consideration being given towards a teen approach. Can the minister indicate that to me? Mr. Rondeau: I'm pleased to let the member know that there's been lots of interest from practitioners, parents and others who are interested in exploring to a teen Triple P. It's interesting because we get this

May 9, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1683 from the field, that there's interest in moving in that direction. I understand that we've received a federal grant from the federal–the Canadian government to test if the amount of interest is such that we should be moving in that direction. And so we've received a federal grant and right now we're exploring ways of testing the waters to see if teen Triple P should be an expansion of what we currently have out there in the community. Mrs. Rowat: Can the minister indicate to me what amount of money was received from the federal government to do that? Mr.

Rondeau: Mr. Chairperson, we don't have that at our fingertips. We'll just get it to you and we'll get it to you in the very short period of time. Mrs. Rowat: Would–I guess my concern is that, you know, part of the challenge with Triple P is that we don't have the trainers here in Manitoba. The trainers are coming from Australia, New Zealand and Switzerland. Would the teen program, then, have to follow that same scope because we've gone down this path with Triple P for family, the family program? Would we be having to do the same thing with the teen campaign? Mr.

Rondeau: I'm pleased to say that we're still pushing for a North American trainer base. As Triple P rolls out across many jurisdictions in North America and continues to be supported by multiple jurisdictions and implemented by multiple jurisdictions, it continues to gain favour among parents, among practitioners. And so as that rolls out, I believe that we have more of a push to have North American-based trainers. We have been making sure that our opinion has been made where we think that it would be good to have North American-based trainers, and we're very supportive of that.

And so as more and more jurisdictions jump on and participate in this very valuable evidence-based program, I think that we're going to get some positive wins and some local trainers in the future, and we're part of that push to make sure that happens. Mrs. Rowat: The evidence-based program concept– or the comments disturb me, because we don't have any evidence-based results, so–in Manitoba–so I keep hearing it and it just makes my skin crawl because it–there's nothing in the province that you're showing me that shows that this is an evidence-based program in Manitoba.

It may be in Europe or in Australia or New Zealand, but I'm not seeing any evidence-based results being offered by this government on this program. Could the minister indicate to me–and I'm interested to know that he's indicating that other provinces have come on board, or other jurisdictions in North America have come on board with this initiative–can he indicate to me which provinces have joined Manitoba in offering a program that originates in Australia and New Zealand and Switzerland? Mr.

Rondeau: When I say it's been recognized and rolled out, I'll give you some of the list of countries and jurisdictions that it's b een offered for. First, of course, Australia and New Zealand, Saudi Arabia, United Kingdom, Netherlands are some of the countries where the program's been offered. In Canada it's been offered in Alberta, Ontario, BC, and to let you know that the centre for Disease Control in United States has said that this is an evidence-based program, strongly supports it and is encouraging its use through jurisdictions in the United States.

Now, I'm not an expert in this, but I do know that if you have a program that has been proven to be successful in multiple, multiple jurisdictions and has been recommended by numbers of experts on behaviour and population, health, et cetera, I have to say that I do have faith in many, many experts who are recommending this program and trying to move it out through many multiple jurisdictions throughout the whole world.

Now, personally, I think that if there's dozens of jurisdictions that are doing it throughout the world, I don't have to go back to step one to prove that it works if there's multiple jurisdictions that are allowing it to work. Now, so what we're doing is instead we're taking this recognized program and what we're saying about it is we believe the experts around the world in multiple jurisdictions. And so what we then are doing is taking that data and then saying, okay, our job is to get our staff–staff in multiple organizations to adopt it and integrate it in their practice.

And I've given you the data on how many people are integrating it in their practice and how it's rolling out, and so that's the stats we're collecting so far. And, as I offered to the member, we're more than willing to have chats. If you want to have specific things measured, we can listen to you and see if we can implement that in our evaluation.

1684 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 9, 2011 * (15:10) Mrs. Rowat: Can the minister indicate to me what the budget is for the Triple P program in Manitoba? Mr. Rondeau: In the Healthy Child Manitoba program, the annual budget for 2010-2011 is $1,367,500, but, again, what's important about it is that it's not–the staffing costs might be in Education, might be in other areas. This is actually the program delivery cost for the Healthy Child and this ministry.

So $1.367 million, and I am–by the note, it says it's currently used in 20 countries and it's talking about about 1,292 practitioners from 200 community agencies, and so it's rolled out quite well. And, again, what we're trying to do is reach all sorts of parents to–on the campaign, to make them aware and also to get practitioners to know about it, if they're not already involved and trained up. Mrs. Rowat: Mr.

Speaker, so the minister's indicating that there's about 1,300 practitioners using this program and 81 or–1,300 practitioners that are trained in Positive Parenting Program, and that 81 per cent of those already use this program in some way, is that correct? Mr. Rondeau: The data from the amount of people who used it was a little bit older, and so that was used in a different base. Because I think the data is a little bit older. What we wanted to do was make sure that the people who were trained previously were using it previously, and that's when that evaluation was done.

We're currently undergoing the new evaluation which I spoke to the member about. And once we're doing that we'll find out, of the 1,300, well, almost 1,300 practitioners, whether there's still 81 per cent have incorporated it in their practice. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Speaker, was that evaluation from 2008? Mr. Rondeau: Yes, it was the 2008 evaluation. Mrs. Rowat: So can the minister indicate to me, of those 1,300 practitioners, how many parents are actually accessing the program? Mr. Rondeau: Mr.

Chair, I am informed that what happens is a lot of people incorporate the whole Triple P philosophy supports through multiple areas. I know in St. James school division, which is a partner, they do parenting workshops. And they'll have parenting workshops on a regular basis where there are some parents who participate here and there. I know that there' s some–many family centres use Triple P and the philosophy, and a lot of those are drop-in clients or people who come in. It's not where you just come in and get an appointment and you get a specific deliverable. And I know a lot of daycare centres have it.

Some early childhood centres have it, parent-child coalitions and, of course, educational facilities. So, and I don't–we don't require them to sit there and say, every time you think about using the philosophy and supports of Triple P, we want you to do a–send in a report. What we do is we train the trainers. We understand from the 2008 evaluation, 81 per cent have incorporated the philosophy and their work– into their work, and we want to continue to have that happen. It is not where you can get a package and it is all perfect child supports.

What it is, it's a series of supports for families and kids that parents can rely on. So it's not just something that you can deliver. It's not a package to say, here, here's how you support your child and have a perfect child. Mrs. Rowat: So the only proof that you have that a community organization or service organization is providing the Triple P program is based on your 2008 data that you have in place right now? You have no tool in place to verify or prove that a community service organization is actually delivering Triple P programming? Mr.

Rondeau: I understand that there's basically 200 parent agencies that say that they work with it, deliver it, approximately. There's some checkups with the agencies, and we keep the website up-to-date, and we actually have sent out the 2008 evaluation. I would assume that, then, 81 per cent incorporate it and said they incorporate it. I have to admit to the member we do not have staff that go up and check on the individual to see how they specifically incorporate it in their professional conduct.

What we believe is when we ask the questions, and ask different proponents and organizations whether they incorporate it, we hear 81 per cent do and we have to trust them. I do not sit there and talk to every school division, daycare, et cetera, and say, how you do it, nor do we count every specific time. But, as I said to the member earlier, I've been to workshops in St. James sc hool division and I've watched great parental support and participation during those workshops and absolutely phenomenal

May 9, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1685 discussions afterwards. And I often think that the discussions afterwards are a critical part of the whole evaluation and program. So I think that I do trust the professionals to do their job, and that's what we do, we talk to the almost 200 agencies, and the partners do say that they have found it valuable and they say they utilize it at a very, very high rate and so I trust them. Mrs. Rowat: Recently, at the Women of Distinction Awards there was a woman that was recognized for the work that she's done on positive discipline and her work in working with families.

Dr. Durrant, I believe is her name from the U of M. Has the Province actually, or, has the minister been in discussion with her because she, obviously, would be providing a Manitoba solution or a Manitoba model which, you know, obviously, she's been identified as an expert in our province. What relationship or what work have we done with Dr. Durrant and would that not be something that we would have considered as an option? Mr. Rondeau: I understand from the department she was part of the initial consultation when we were talking about bringing Triple P into the province.

She has presented to the council of coalitions on children, and I understand there's nothing inconsistent with what she's saying. And, in fact, I think that we have some great experts. And one of the things in this whole area of children and positive parenting, and all this, I think, we will all continue to learn off each other. It's not like one person has the silver bullet. But what we want to do is we want to incorporate things like Triple P, because it's evidenced-based and seems to work. We'll incorporate other things, and, I think, Dr.

Durrant is amazing, and, I think, lots of people are amazing in many, many sectors. So it's not where we want to say, yours–one person has the answer. I think, what we want to do is incorporate, as much as possible, best practices, good ideas in what we do. And so I don't think it's an all-or-nothing proposition and, I think, we're open to good ideas, specifically in Manitoba, but anywhere. And we'll adopt them when we can. * (15:20) Mrs. Rowat: Can the minister indicate to me, what has the travel costs been for individuals from Australia to train Triple P practitioners in the last year?

We also understand now that New Zealand has also been a site that has trainers that have trained practitioners, as well as Switzerland. So what I would like to get from this minister is probably a breakdown over the last three years of individuals who have trained practitioners. And I'd also like to know the travel costs that we've paid for either going to Australia, going to New Zealand or going to Switzerland, as well as trainers coming from Australia, New Zealand and Switzerland here.

So, you know, the give and take both ways of individuals and the costs associated with, not only travel, but also any other costs associated with the program. [interjection] Yes. Mr. Rondeau: Mr. Chairperson, just to let you know, to be very specific, I have not, nor my deputy has gone to New Zealand, Australia or Switzerland about this program or any others this year. In fact, no one's done any trips since the response to you last time. Next, in the most recent fiscal year, 2010-2011, trainers made seven trips to Manitoba to conduct training and/or accreditation.

Travel costs to and from Canada were estimated to be approximately $21,000 in total, and I can get you a specific breakdown, whether it's $21,100 or a little less, if you need it. Mrs. Rowat: And I'd also like the breakdown of what we would have covered in expenses, besides the travel costs. I would also like to know the costs associated with their accommodations, the facilities that were used for those training facilities, what was spent for the whole gamut of the program. Mr. Rondeau: I can get you the trainers' travel costs and expenses, if that's okay. Mrs.

Rowat: As well as what was spent through training within the province, here, whether–you know, there would have obviously had to have been some type of a venue, and that, et cetera. Mr. Rondeau: I've been told by my staff I can get that to you. Mrs. Rowat: Can the minister provide for me how many parents were connected with Triple 3–Triple P through their involvement with the child welfare system? Is that tracked?

1686 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 9, 2011 Mr. Rondeau: We don't have the number of children that are affected by those. We do have the amount of people who are trained in the child welfare system through the Triple P system, and I can give you the number of staff that are trained. I can't tell you how many kids that's–that touches. Again, that goes through that wonderful discussion about giving the material and letting people trust it to see what they do with their own time, and I don't know actually how many children.

So, if you want just the amount of people trained in the child system, I can provide that and I will. Mrs. Rowat: And while he's getting that information, a list of all of the organizations that have been trained, organizations as well as individuals, if that's possible: coalitions, different types of private and public agencies that have been trained in the Triple P would be most useful. He'd indicated there were over 200, so I'm expecting that would be something that could be done in a minimal amount of time. Mr. Rondeau: I think I said about, but we'll talk on that one.

I can endeavour to get the organizations, the private, public agencies that were trained and the overall number. And I'll get that to you with that wonderful package that you'll receive. Mrs. Rowat: I'd like to ask some questions with regard to Parent Zone. This was a question that was raised by the member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson) during Estimates with the Minister for Family Services (Mr. Mackintosh). And there was a program called Parent Zone–it's going to be a website–that's in the development stages, and I think the costing of that was $250,000.

And there was discussion on this project or initiative, and there was a tie-in to Triple P. Can the minister give me some background on what he knows about this $250,000 Parent Zone website development? Mr. Rondeau: That's actually in the Minister of Family Services' purview because it's actually budgeted out of Family Services, not out of Healthy Child. Mrs.

Rowat: But it was allocated towards the Triple P program, so I'm wanting to ask the minister if he can then share with me how that Parent Zone initiative is going to be tied in to Triple P because he's–you've indicated to me that you think the Triple P program has been developed to the state that it's at. We've got a website which is called the parent–or the Positive Parenting website. This is obviously, you know, based on what we understand, because we don't know a lot about it, but the way it's perceived is this is another website and there's $250,000 attached to it.

So I would like to know if the minister can share with me, you know, what the tie-in is, and is this something to do with the teen initiative that I've heard being pushed forward, or is this something totally different? Mr. Rondeau: I–our department–in my initial comments said that we work with others–we work with other departments. The Healthy Child Committee of Cabinet is nine Cabinet ministers that sit and work and discuss children, discuss how we can work together across departments, which departments can step up to the plate and help facilitate things.

Parent Zone is an initiative by Family Services, and they're moving forward in a partnership basis to help facilitate parenting, and I don't know all the particular details. That is, financially, in the Minister of Family Services' budget and, yes, he is–and Family Services is part of the Healthy Child Committee of Cabinet. The minister attends the meetings and we do–we must have watched Sesame Street because we know how to work and play with others. And so each department has a role and a way of working together, and part of the role that Family Services is doing is development of the Parent Zone website. Mrs.

Rowat: Just one further question: Can the minister indicate to me the total amount of money being spent on the Positive Parenting website, your annual budget for your website? Mr. Rondeau: It's a subset of $1.3 million that we spend on the Triple P program, but we don't have an actual breakdown on what the website costs per year. Mrs. Rowat: But I remember with the Spirited Energy campaign, there wa s a breakdown initially, you know. It indicated spec ifically how much it cost to maintain that website, how much it cost to develop that website, et cetera.

So there has to be some type of a breakdown with regard to the website costs. Mr. Rondeau: Rather than contracting the Triple P website out, it is part of the government website and is managed within the department.

May 9, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1687 Mrs. Bonnie Mitchels on (River East): Just to follow up on the questions on the Parent Zone initiative under Family Services, the Minister of Family Services was very clear that this was a partnership with Healthy Living, so I'd like to ask the minister: Who's the lead in his department on the Parent Zone initiative? Mr. Rondeau: Actually, Family Services is the lead department because it's their initiative–it's in their budget, but as per any program, as I mentioned, we can work and play together so we have staff that are providing support should they need it.

Mrs. Mitchelson: But the minister didn't answer my question. Obviously, if it's a committee process and Healthy Child is an integral part, which is clear from Hansard in the Department of Family Services Estimates, who is the lead person in the Department of Healthy Living that works with the Department of Family Services on this initiative? * (15:30) Mr. Rondeau: As I mentioned earlier, family–this is a Family Services initiative. We provide assistance should Family Services request it, or any specialized expertise. We do work with them.

So, if they're talking about specific best practice, we'll, of course, work with them to provide support. But Family Services is providing the budget and I'd have to respectfully request that the member talk to the Minister of Family Servic es (Mr. Mack intosh) about how the website's developed. We are working in partnership, as we do in all Healthy Living programs. Mrs. Mitchelson: But the minister is talking around in circles. I'm sure there is a working group if Healthy Living is a partner, which the Minister of Family Services said Healthy Living was a partner.

Can he not give me the name of an individual within the department that is taking the lead or is in–is on that interdepartmental working committee? Mr. Rondeau: People who are in the working group are Steve Feldgaler and Mallory Neuman and–but I do have to reiterate, there may be working groups in–working together with different departments, but it is a Family Services initiative. Mrs. Mitchelson: And that was pretty easy to find the answer for; I don't know why it took so long. Can the minister indicat e to me how the linkage with the Triple P parenting initiative will happen with the Parent Zone program? Mr.

Rondeau: I assume there'll be links to and from both websites, and there'll be resources that are based on that Triple P support that'll be on Parent Zone and Parent Zone will refer people to the Triple P program. Mrs. Mitchelson: Can the minister indicate to me if there are other initiatives that Healthy Living is involved in in other departments that–and they may not be the lead, but there are any other departments within government that are looking at websites or initiatives that are going to link into Triple P? Mr. Rondeau: I'm not too sure how many websites have a link to Triple P.

I assume child care, et cetera, but we have to get back to you on that one because I'm not too specific. I can't be exact on which websites, especially from external organizations or other departments that are linked to Triple P. Again, what I would like to say to the committee is that we want to make sure that there are cross-references. So a lot of the Healthy Living topics do have links to experts, to other organizations both within and outside of government. So we do want to communicate with partners.

Over 80 per cent of our program delivery, grants, et cetera, are delivered by outside agencies, and so we actually do partner with multiple groups not only in the information provision, but we also do that in the delivery of programs. Mr. Chairperson: Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard)–I'm sorry, member for River East. Mrs. Mitchelson: And the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Mackintosh) indicated that the Parent Zone, that website was to link and provide information for parents on any questions they might have, everything from, perhaps, bullying to breastfeeding. It's intended to be a one-stop shop website.

I thought that's what Healthy Living was all about. I didn't know that it wasn't your mandate. And can the minister just try to explain to me why, when he stands up and talks about all the wonderful things that Healthy Living is doing, why it wouldn't be his department that would be taking the lead on this initiative rather than the Department of Family Services? Mr. Rondeau: We work with others in multiple cases, whether it's in motion, where we're talking about recreation and activities; we work with school divisions; we work with businesses; we work with municipalities; and so, although it's a program that's

1688 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 9, 2011 delivered and supported in our budget, we actually don't deliver much of the in motion programming. Same as in parenting: we–in the Triple P program, we work with daycare centres; we work with school divisions; we work with parent-child coalitions; we work with all sorts of organizations to get the message out. And I'm not territorial; I think that we can work with many people to get the message out, and I think Family Services, if they want to provide the material and work with us, all the better.

Family Services does deal with people–children, families, and we also do, and I have to say that I don't have–I'm not territorial, if someone wants to work with us to provide the material. And I can assure the member that there will be links from the Healthy Child to Parent Zone and from Parent Zone to Healthy Child, and, hopefully, there'll be links to school divisions and, hopefully, there'll be links to multiple partners. Again, territoriality doesn't make sense. On the Web, I think it's really important to realize that there–you can get information one or two or three clicks away.

What we want to do is make sure that there's good, solid information that parents can rely on, easily accessible, and whether that's in Family Services, because the word family, or Healthy Living, I don't care. What we want to do is get the information out, link it together so that people have access to the information and make good decisions. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chair, and I will put on the record certainly my concer ns, because I think this minister's department has been criticized, and rightly so, for the amount of expenditures on PR and feel-good advertising that doesn't necessarily ensure measured outcomes for people or for families that need support. And we have seen this minister involved in many feel-good advertising campaigns that really have been criticized by the general public–maybe not only in the Healthy Child area, but in–you know, we only can just recall Spirited Energy and the mess of–the disaster that that was by government.

I question why and I would–I guess, maybe I'll ask the question: Does this minister chair the Healthy Living Committee of Cabinet? Mr. Rondeau: Mr. Chair, and I'm surprised that the member continues to criticize the Premier's Economic Advisory Council and the chamber of commerce about some positive advertising. But the, you know–we have to respectfully disagree on the public relations. I think that if a parent is challenged and a family is challenged in a tough situation, they want to reach out to get resources, and I believe that there should be no wrong door.

I think that they should be multiple doors that parents and families can access information. So I disagree. If the member believes that only one group should have all the answers, you know, it's a different philosophy. I believe that in Healthy Child, we want to work in partners and we do continue to work in partnership. And whether it's–I'm surprised at the member that's criticizing the fact that we're encouraging kids to wear bike helmets. I'm surprised the member is criticizing the fact that we're trying to get people active and in motion and physically fit.

I think those things are supported by the general public and they're good, positive campaigns. So I look at in motion and trying to get more people physically fit and active and I think that's a positive message. I look at the SafetyAid program, where we're actually trying to promote, where we have a program that goes out and makes sure that seniors are secure in their homes, feel secure and do modifications to their homes to keep healthy.

I think that's a positive thing, and to get the thousand or over a thousand people to modify their houses is a positive thing, and I will not say it's wrong to promote positive programs like that. * (15:40) So we respectfully disagree. I think in motion is important; I think SafetyAid's important; I think the bike helmet campaign is important. So, you know, the member opposite may disagree, but I'm sorry. As far as other things, we will continue to move forward with partnerships, and that's our plan and we will continue to do that. Mrs.

Mitchelson: My question was: Is the minister that lead minister for the Healthy Living Committee of Cabinet? Mr. Rondeau: Yes, I'm the chair. Mrs. Mitchelson: So, as the lead Minister for Healthy Living, would he not be looking to ensure that as requests go forward to Treasury Board through the budgetary process, that he would be the one that would be recommending–or other departments would be feeding in to the committee

May 9, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1689 and then he would be the one that, ultimately, would make the recommendations on expenditures for different programs and take that forward to Treasury Board? Mr. Rondeau: I'm actually the chair of the Healthy Child Committee of Cabinet, and there we talk about children and youth and we do not make recommendations to government. What happens is Treasury–individual ministries make recommenda- tions to Treasury Board, and they move forward that way. Mrs. Mitchelson: So none of those are vetted through the Healthy Child Committee of Cabinet. Mr.

Rondeau: We discussed issues and concepts and talk about how we can work together, and, as the chair of the Healthy Child Committee of Cabinet, we talk about lots of programs. We've talked about FASD and moving forward with FASD, which is cross-departmental. So we will come up with the strategy. But each department sends their own financial requests to–through Treasury Board through the budgeting process. Mrs. Mitchelson: I guess I'm just trying to find out exactly. I mean, I know it's nice to be able to sit and talk as ministers.

But, when there are new initiatives that come up from a government that deal with creating healthier children, I would hope, through Healthy Living, why would there not be some discussion at that table on how to get value for our tax dollars, for people's tax dollars through discussing? I mean, it's great to sit around and talk, and talk about all the wonderful things that maybe should happen; but there's always a cost when it comes to government supporting and implementing a program.

So I guess my question is, what value is the committee if you're not looking at putting a dollar figure to new initiatives and looking at what positive outcomes there may be? Why–I mean, is there no discussion, financial discussion, around that committee of Cabinet? Mr. Rondeau: I think that we discuss a great deal about investment in children. We talk about how we can co-operate between departments and through departments, and we talk about, in general, how we're about to conduct business.

But, as the member knows, when you are in Cabinet, Treasury Board is the part of government that actually makes fiscal decisions, and so the Healthy Child Committee of Cabinet can talk about strategies, we can talk about programs, we can talk about working together, but the financial

part is decided at Treasury Board. An example would be interesting is that–let's say that you take the FASD strategy and I know there was virtually very little FASD expenditures. What we do is we'll talk about FASD and Education will have a component, health care will have a component, Family Services will have a component, Healthy Living will have a component, and so we'll talk about developing a comprehensive strategy and discuss who has the role. That doesn't mean that we then approve the finances. We talk about the co-operation in bringing together on the strategy.

We don't actually make the financial allocation. Mrs. Mitchelson: I understand that completely. But I think the minister is kind of missing what I'm trying to say. Parent Zone is a new initiative to try to reach out, I guess, to families and provide information on all kinds of issues. Is this something that would've been discussed at the Healthy Living Committee of Cabinet as a new initiative that would be led by Family Services that would have a cost associated with it?

And not saying that the committee would make a decision, but is it not something that was discussed and endorsed around that committee table by ministers involved before the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Mackintosh) went back and took a submission to Treasury Board under his budget? Is that not something that would have been discussed and endorsed? Mr. Rondeau: I can't tell you the precise process by which the Minister of Family Services made the decisions and moved forward fiscally on the program.

You'd actually have to–I have to respectfully suggest the member talk to the Minister of Family Services–what process he followed. We do talk about processes like working with families, start talking about the Triple P program, we talk about general initiatives, but what we want to do is we want to make sure that we have co-operation with major areas, and I'll give you an example. If you look at FASD, again it's not a proposal from Healthy Living. It's something that we work throughout government on, through RHAs, through Family Services. Every family service has a FASD co-ordinator. We have–Manitoba Education is

1690 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 9, 2011 involved; Healthy Living's involved; so it's across government. We will actually work on a strategy; we'll build a strategy and we'll move it forward. Each minister within that FASD strategy will take a component, and so Health will put something in their budget, Family Services will put something in their budget. The same process works in every case where we talk about initiative, talk about parenting, Triple P.

And each minister then says–finds out what their department would like to move forward on, brings that through the Treasury Board process and moves forward on the initiative. We are partners, where we talk to the ministers involved, but each minister has their own component of a strategy and we talk about strategies, co-operation in working together. Mrs. Mitchelson: But, again, to the minister, and I know because before the Healthy Child–Healthy Living Committee of Cabinet, we had an initiative that I was the lead on.

And we certainly did discuss finances around the table because, in many instances, there were programs that were being delivered by Education possibly where, in fact, Education dollars were being used to deliver programs that should have rightly been delivered by Family Services. And we were taking money out of the front lines, out of the classrooms, to do things that were Family Services related.

So we looked at that or things that were Health related, and we know that there's a significant health cost in the education system when it comes to additional supports that ar e needed for children that have unique circumstances or special circumstances. And so we looked at taking money from the Department of Health and moving that into the budget of Education to try to support the kids that needed extra support in the school system. We looked at taking money from Family Services and putting that into the education system.

So those were the kinds of things that we did–looked at where that money should be coming from and made recommendations on how that money could be better spent. And any partnerships that we had made sure that–and so it sounds to me like that kind of activity is no longer going on, and that the Healthy Child department really isn't looking at how we can best use taxpayers' dollars to provide the supports and services to children that need supports from government right across the sector. So, I guess, I'm looking at this, and saying, you know, it's only $250,000.

Well, the minister doesn't seem to know anything about what the submission was from Family Services, and yet he is the lead minister on Healthy Child initiatives.

And so I question the value of the committee and sitting around and developing strategy, when and–I mean, does the minister not think that to be a good steward of the taxpayers' dollars, th at when we're looking at investment in children and healthy families, that–and he supposedly is the lead in government on those initiatives–that financial accountability is important in any way, that, you know, finances really don’t mean anything? * (15:50) We'll sit around and talk and we'll feel good about what we're doing, but we're not being good stewards of the taxpayers' dollar, and we're not looking at what the Department of Healthy Living is doing and what the Department of Family Services is doing and what the Department of Health is doing.

We're not ensuring that there's a co-ordinated approach that any department can just go off and go to Treasury Board with the submission that the Healthy Child Committee of Cabinet doesn't look at and say, is there a better way to do it? Is there a better way that we can use taxpayers' dollars? I mean, I just have to question, you know, what it's all about if, you know, finances aren't a part of the whole process of determining what new initiatives and what new programs are going to be brought forward. Mr.

Rondeau: You know, I find it interesting the member's criticizing the whole idea about prevention and co-operation and working with other departments. I look at it. We look at the prevention, whole concept of prevention, and that's the whole Healthy Living ministry, and remember, you guys were going to merge it with Health–with Education a couple of years ago. So I look at it where I say that we do have a co-ordinated approach; we have co-ordinated strategies. We want to work with others, and as I said, I don't want to control all the things on Health. So here's an example.

Through the Chronic Disease Prevention Initiative, which is a co-operative approach, what we do is we work with RHAs–and part of their mandate is healthy eating; part of it is exercise; part of it's smoking. We work with health professionals to deliver that. It's a co-ordinated approach. It's something we talked about in Healthy Living and we move forward on that. That doesn't

May 9, 2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1691 mean that I control everything in the budget, and so I look at things like the Healthy Baby program and the entire home visitors program and things like this. We work with multiple departments to deliver programs and they're cost effective. So every young mum that we can get that is not having a premature baby or underweight baby is huge. Every young mum that we do not have that has a baby that is affected with FASD, that's huge, huge in cost, in human terms, and in financial terms.

So again, I respectfully disagree that we don't get value for dollars when we come up with a co-ordinated, multi-pronged, multi-sectorial, lots-of-partnership approach with FASD or in motion, or no smoking or activity or Chronic Disease Prevention or any of these. In fact, we work with multiple groups, and what we do is we talk about the strategy and we talk about which department is best to deliver it and which department can take the lead on things. And as I said, some programs we have school divisions taking the lead or Health taking the lead. Some others, we have Education or daycares or child-care centres.

Some we take a lead like the w hole coalitions where we have child-care coalitions that we take the lead on. It's a co-operative approach. We do not–and by the way, I believe that my ministry is essential. It's essential as far as prevention. I know that I was the first Healthy Living Minister, and we were very aggressive and continue to be on prevention and now we're even into gang prevention. We're the first ministry. This year we brought a lot of the resources together into the department at the–about 15 months ago, 16 months ago, but my job is not to own every problem and make everyone healthy.

My job is to co-ordinate and work forward as the chair of the Healthy Child Committee of Cabinet and also in Healthy Living, move forward multiple partners. It is not to own the problem and have everything that's prevention into one ministry. We believe that it's every ministry's job to do some prevention. Now, is there cost-effectiveness on prevention? Absolutely. I believe it. I know it. So I know that every kid that doesn't get FASD saves the system thousands if not millions of dollars. That's where we're at, and so we will coordinate it, but we do not approve the finances.

Treasury Board and then ultimately this Legislature approves the finances. Mrs. Mitchelson: So, then, the minister indicates that they are the coordinating body for these initiatives. So I guess it would be safe then for me to presume, and the minister can tell me if I'm wrong or not, that the Parent Zone program was one of those programs that would have been discussed at his Cabinet committee, and it would have been something that was endorsed by his committee. He didn't have to take ownership over it, but it would have been endorsed by his committee.

He would have, and his colleagues would have, indicated that, yes, this Parent Zone program is going to be a valuable program, Department of Family Services should take the lead on it, and they'll go to Treasury Board. But it would have been something that would have been–co

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	39-5-42
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	39th 5th hansardpdf 42.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	30617bf01365c7ab00243cf17798f86ff83c8e67

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