ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second legislature Leglslatlve Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Publlahed under the authority of The Honourable D. Jame• Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 648 - 8:00 p.m., TUE SDAY, 10 MAY, 1983. Pnnted by the Office of the 0.-.s Ponter. Province of AhnilObll

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA,Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verend rye Min nedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Rus sell St. Norb ert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NOP INO NOP NDP NDP NOP NDP NOP PC PC PC NOP NOP PC NOP PC PC PC NOP NDP NOP PC PC NOP PC NOP PC NOP NOP PC PC PC PC PC PC NOP NDP NOP NOP NOP PC NOP NOP NOP PC NDP PC NOP NOP NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 10 May, 1983. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCU RRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - NATURAL RESOURCES MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Committee please come to order. We were on 11( a)(2) when we broke for Private Members' Hour. The Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, as ind icated prior to the supper hour adjournment, a request was made for some additiona l informa tio n with respect to the Capital Program that we'll be into very shortly.

Further on this item, in terms of admin istration, services provided by this branc h to mun icipal ities has always been of importance in rural Manitoba. Is that still being provided, and if so, at what level? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Min ister. HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I know that under consideration was some change in the rates, but after looking at it and considering the impact that that could have on mun icipal ities, the rates were not increased to the level that would have fully compensated the department. I'm just going to get the details.

I don't think they were changed - the present rates are $95 a day for a survey crew. MR. H. ENNS: And those, as the Minister ind icates, remain unchanged for the coming year? HON. A. MACKLING: That's right, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I'm sor ry, I have to make a corre ction. The recollection of the Deputy Minis ter was not quite correct. It's $75 a day for a survey crew. • MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, have there been any significant staff changes in this group? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I think I reviewed the details of those before the break.

There were a number of vacant positions totalling 14 that were reduced. MR. H. ENNS: Just one further question. Mr. Bill Newton is still senior person in this group? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. H. ENNS: And he is not available to this committee for what particular reason? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, we have had some admin istrative problems in respect to really flushing out some of the start-up problems in the Turtle River Cons ervation District and he is on tem por ary assignme nt there, as acting chairman of that Cons ervation Board, in addition to his duties here as division director. MR. H.

ENNS: It is contemplated though that he will resume his reponsibi lities with the branch? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, he's continuing to be director of the branch and he is also doubling to resolve the transitional problems that we have in that Conservation District. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, just a straightforward answer from the Minister and we'd get off the subject. Is it contempla ted that he will continue in the responsibility as director of this branch? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I found Mr. Newton to be an excellent director - there's no problem.

He has assisted us in the resolution of a problem in that Cons ervation District and that's why he's not available, but I can assure the honourable member that he's the most highly desired and hardworking division director. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, just as an aside - it's always good practice never to volu nteer mo re information that is asked for. I simply asked whether he's going to continue ... MR. CHAIRMAN: 11(a)(2)-pass . MR. W. McKENZIE: One question if I could. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Could the Mini ster advise me of the number of meetings he had with Mr.

Arthur Doering from Grandview and if he's resolved those problems that he has brought to the attention of the department? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I did have one or two meetings with Mr. Doering in my office. I don't recall the exact number. I also did meet with Mr. Doering while I was out in, I believe, it's Grandview, looking at the new storage reservo ir for water there. We did look at the Valley River and Mr. Doering pointed out some natural and un natural obstructions in the river and demons trated his concern in connection with them. I must say that I don't think that Mr.

Doering's problems have been resolved to his satisfaction. He contends that the structures in the river effect a ponding action, the result of which is that the land that he owns up stream of the town floods, partic u larly in the springtime. The Engineering Branch do not agree with his assessment of the result of the obstacles in the river but, of course, it's very difficult for anyone, including a layman like myself, to appreciate all of the engineering facts and their relationship to flooding conditions. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr.

Chairman, maybe it's not the right place to ask the question - I'm not sure - but the 2601

Tuesday, 10 May, 1983 lagoon that was put into Grandview and it's all installed now and it's working well, has the Minister any concerns about tha t decision tha t was made? I had some questions raised last year, which I raised with the Min ister, about the weeds and things around the area. But has the department got any problems with the decision that was made to go the lagoon route? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, we're not equipped with information on that to any extent. We're not aware of any problems coming to our attention. The operation of the lagoon is under the Agricultural Water Services Board. MR. W.

McKENZIE: I understand. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 11 .(b) (1) -p ass; 11 .(b) (2)- pass; 11 .(c) ( 1)- pass; 11 .(c)(2)-pass. Resolution 126: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $6,989,200 for Natural Resources for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1984- pass. 12.(a )(1) . HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, in introducing this

section of the department, Regional Services, I want to acknowledge the contribution that Ernie Psikla made as a Regional Director of this branch. As most members may well know, Ernie received an offer he felt he couldn't refuse from the Province of Alberta and did return to that province. He's lived there and worked there prior to coming and working for us in Manitoba. Ernie regretted leaving, but as I say, the offer was such that he felt he couldn't refuse.

Joe Nespor is with me and Joe has been Acting Director in the interval, but of recent days we held a competition and Ed Wong, who has served in a numb er of capacities within the department including Acting Director, I believe, of Parks, was the successful applicant and has assumed these duties. He's not with us today because he's presently in Regina on some personal matter, but Joe Nespor is with me and I think many people know Joe who has been very active in the department for many years. Under this section, we provide the support for all of the branches.

We provide conservation officers who are our front line in respect to all of the services that this br anch affo rds to the general public. The conservation officers are faced with a multitude of problems and activities that require unde rstand ing, empathetic treatment from them with the people that enjoy the rights under the various sections of this department. I had the occasion to meet - I think only once - with a regional meeting of conservation officers and enjoyed that experience thoroughly.

I want to put on record my appreciation for the efforts of our "boys in green" I think I could call them, who do a very difficult task many ti mes and do it very well in applying and adminis tering the ·rules and regula tion s of the department, interfacing with people who fish, who hunt, who trap, who harvest our forests, to name but a few of the many activities that they're involved with. They're a good group and I think that the transitional problems that obviously were encou ntered when departments Parks and Natural Resources were merged.

Those problems I think are behind us, and I think that we have a good working group out there that are a tribute to the province. I know that there are members, individual citizens, in society and one of them is present as a spectator, who has indicated to me from time to time how diplomatic and how effective some of our staff have been, particularly those, I'm referring to those in the Whiteshell. MR. H. ENNS : Mr . Chairman, allow me to also acknowledge appreciation on the part of the opposition for the services of Ernie Psikla.

Manitoba lost the services of an excellent person - and at the same time welcome the appoin tment of Mr . Ed Wong. The gentleman that you have with you is Mr. Joe Nespor , and at the same time acknowledge the work that he's been doing in the acting capacity. Have there been any substantial staff changes? Mr. Chairman, I'll ask a few general questions and then we will proceed along on the different items.

There will be some specific questions on the fire suppression, fuel services and enforcement, but in general in the Regional Services one does hear complaints about the lack of staff in terms of carrying out some of these services that are required from this branch, particularly in the area of conservation officers. Are we holding level or have we reduced or what is the situation in terms of field personnel, particularly in the area of the "boys in green" as the Minister describes them. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, overall there has been a reduction of six staff. We have had people come and go.

We had 11 Natural Resou rces Officers and I was using conservation officers. I apologize, it's Natural Resou rce Officers although I use the terms interchangeably, that were hired during the period 1982- 83. There were six that were trans ferred on promotion. There were 22 lateral transfers mainly for career development but, of course, recruitment filled those changes. Overall there's a small reduction, net reduction of six. There are no layoffs but those were obviously unfilled complement. MR. H.

ENNS: I know it will start sounding like a broken record but this is a particular aspect of this Min ister's department we've been made aware of. The Minister has certainly been made aware of some substantial difficulties in terms of enforcement and of presence by the department to try to remedy or to reduce the amount of illegal activity that's taking place in the field in the past year, some rather disturbing, startling headlines about substantial poaching that's involved, whether it involves big game animals or fish; and again, Mr.

Chairman, I know that I can appeal to you, Sir, for your fairness and your influence in your caucus. Surely, you will see the difficulty that members of the opposition have that these areas of government activity are being reduced. They're being reduced at a time that the Honourable Member for Urban Affairs can find an extra $20 million to build yet an extra arena in Winnipeg or the Minister of Finance can find an extra 18 or 20 percent more money to spend for all other departments but these departments. 2602

Tuesday, 10 May, 1983 Now, Mr. Chairman, I've made that point and I won' i reiterate it, but it is noticed. The question was asked; the question was raised. We notice the absence of those six persons or the fact that the full complement isn't there. HON. A. MACKLING: No, Mr. Chairman, we didn't lay anyone off. We have the same numbers of active people, but there were six positions that had not been filled that are not here now as unfilled positions.

That's my understanding of the num bers; and what we have done is in effect we've got the same work force, the total work force, but we are redeploying people where the need is greatest. We're moving people where we think, for example, there is a greater incidence of involvement, hunting infractions or wh atever. We have been moving people on a seasonal basis where that is required. So we've been very cost effective, but we've been very employment effective in utilizing our staff. MR. CHAIRMAN: 12.(a) (1) - pass; 12.(a)(2)-pass. 12.(a)(3) - the Member for Pembina. MR. D.

ORCHARD: I wonder if the Minister might permit a question. It's general questions on Field Services not necessarily related to an item, but I only have a few questions. HON. A. MACKLING: Go ahead. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you. The Minister is familiar with a hunting incident at home that I described to him last fall. The question I have for the Min ister, and I've written to - I forget which one of the staff was asking for recommendations on change to the Act - but I wrote to them and made a couple of suggestions and I'd like to bounce them off the Min ister.

I don't know whether it's within the abilities of the municipalities to unde rtake this, but could a municipality during deer hunting season basically by notice in the paper restrict the entire municipality to deer hunting in this particular instance, except by written permission, and make that a bylaw of the municipality such that you cou ldn't have a similar incident of just plain ir respo nsible hun ting th at happened not only in my instance, but in several instances last year? Is that within the - call it the legislative framework of a municipality - to pass such a bylaw? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Chairman, I have to be quite candid and say that I really don't know. I don't know whether my staff could assist me with a definitive answer there or not. I would want to check with the Act and The Mu nicipal Act - perhaps talk to Municipal Affairs. I know that municipalities can, by by-law, prohibit any discharge of a firearm on a Sunday and a number of mun icipal ities have done that. Wh ether or no t a municipality could, by by-law, restrict other forms of hunting, I really don't know.

I am familiar with the i_ncident that the honour able member refers to and for the record, it involved a very careless hunter firing, discharging his rifle, obviously at deer, but in close proximity to a farm residence; in this case, the residence of the hono urable member. It's reckless hunting. It's actionable under the Act because it's dangerous. Hopefully, that kind of incident is in a very small minor ity. I say hopefully, because I respect the concern the honour able member has that these incidents aren't isolated. There can be a number of them, but I say hopefully they are few in number.

These incidents do occur; it's hard to deal with them other than through hunter educa tion, publ icity. Even so, there will still be some people who just are irresponsible with their hunting practises, but they are in a very small minor ity, I believe. But as to the law, I'm not sure. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, there's no question that - like the length of time I've lived there, I've never had a similar incident and clearly that proves that the hunter population, in general, is pretty respective of landowner's rights and pretty careful.

But, as the Minister is well aware, and as all of us are well aware, it's these few that tend to be able to flaunt the law, and in this case it happened there was no charges were able to be pursued for a number of reasons, that cause a lot of land to be posted "Absolutely No Hunting," because the landowner, on one occasion or anot her, has been su bject to a similar circumstance. That deprives the rights to hunt of a lot of very re sponsible and legitimate sportsmen, and that's why I pose the question about whether municipalities could establish such a by-law.

Could the Minister ind icate to me whether it is mun icipal or whether it is department regulation which restricts certain areas to shotgun hunting only with slugs in deer hunting season? Is that a municipal capability or is that a departmental and provincial regulation? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, again, I must ind icate my ignorance on that subject. I really don't know. I believe certainly that the department can; that is, the government can establish, by zone, areas where certain types of guns would only be allowed, and as a matter of fact, as part of that hunter safety review that I requested.

I've ind icated to staff that I think we ought to look at some of the practices that have been followed in other areas of the North American continent. There are a number of states in the Un ited States of America where they have very large deer populations where they have a long history of game hunting, white­ tailed deer and others, and wh ere the y employ restrictions like shotguns with deer slugs only, no high­ powered rifles.

I think those concepts are worth looking at because they would have the marked advantage of not having missiles, the bullet travelling distances of a mile or more and landing on or colliding with things which the hunter had no perception would occur and these things have happened, and I think we have to look at some alternatives. MR. D. ORCHARD: I thank the Minister for that answer, and if he could check out to see what the Act would or would not allow in terms of municipal bylaws, I would be appreciative of receiving that answer. I have a question on another matter.

Under the operations of Fire Suppression, the Minister invites tenders for aircraft utilization under spotting, I believe it's primarily just spotting. In the advertisement for tender the Mini ster requires all people offering a tender to submit a, I believe it's called a

schedule of 2603

Tuesday, 10 May, 1983 tariffs, along with the offer to put planes in service for the department for Fire Suppression. Does the exclusion by a tenderer of the

schedule of tariffs invalidate that person's tender when it's an advertised requirement to be part of the tender? HON. A. MACKLING: My understanding, Mr. Chairman, from the department is th at the public tender requirements have to be strictly complied with and if there is an omission, that would invalidate it. MR. D. ORCHARD: Then, I won't take up the time with the committee tonight on this matter, but it was drawn to my attention sometime ago, and I waited until we got to the Estimate process, I thought we'd be there a lot sooner .

There was a complaint dr awn to my attention that the case the Minister ind icates, the practice the Min ister ind icates, was not followed in that tenders were accepted without the

schedule of tariffs being part of it and had that been adhered to strictly the tenders would have been offered to other than the people and in each case the tender selected was the lowest tender in dollars per hour or whatever the tender method. So, if I may, I'll discuss that with the Min ister this week. HON. A. MACKLING: Fine. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Well, perhaps we can move on to (b), Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 12.(a)(3)- pass; 12.(b)( 1). MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, dealing with the various regions, can the Minister ind icate to the committee what the complement of a regional office is in Regional Services, such as the Northw est Region, the number of staff, the number of professional people, what do we have? We have the conservation officers, park ranger, or? HON. A. MACKLING: In the Northw est Region we have a total of 33 staff years: one mana ger; one superintendent; 11 in administration; 3 in technical, I'm not so sure what technical means? - fire control officer and we have 16 Natural Resour ce officers; and one term clerk. A total complement of 33. MR. H.

ENNS: Mr. Chairman, that is for all the regions? HON. A. MACKLING: No. That's the Nor thwest Region. MR. W. McKENZIE: Dauphin is it? Swan River? HON. A. MACKLING: That would be Flin Flon and The Pas area. Then if you want I can just run over the complement in each region. MR. H. ENNS: Would you please, Mr. Chairman? HON. A. MACKLING: The total complement again is simil ar, manager, sup erintendent, adminis tra tion, technical, NR Os and term clerks. For the Northe ast Region a total of 31. 18. That arises from the clerk's term position, that fraction - 31.1. The Interlake at 45.03. The Southw est Region 28.5.

The Western Region 39. 14 - (I nterject ion) - no, that's the Western. In the Southeastern Region, 54. In the Eastern Region 29. I've rounded those last figures, rather than deal with the fractions. MR. H. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I would assume th at the varianc e of num bers is di ctated by the respo nsibilities the department faces. In other words, substantial installations such as provincial parks, etc., would indicate the higher numbers in particular regions. MR. CHAIRMAN: 12.(b)(2) - Mr. Min ister. HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, that's right, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 12 .(b) (1 )-p ass; 12 .( b)(2)- pass; 12.(c)( 1)- pass; 12.(c)(2)-pass; 12.(d) (1) ... HON. A. MACKLING: Not so fast, Mr. Chairman, that's the Interlake. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I don't think it would be out of order for me to plead special cause for the Interlake, after all, it's an important region in the Pr ovinc e of Mani to ba, and I'm the only Tory representative in that area that has to look after their welfare. MR. CHAIRMAN: Perfectly legitimate. MR. H.

ENNS: Perhaps I can use this region, joking aside, to deal a little more specifically with the regional officers' work. It also happens to be a region where we have, partly because of its proximity to larger urban population, we have pretty severe hunting pressure in the area. We continue to hear reports of serious taking of illegal game, particularly deer in this area. Moose, unfortuna tely, as we've discussed earlier, have just about vanished from the region and regrettably so, as well as we have nume rous fishing problems located with the Lake Manitoba Fisheries, Lake St.

Martin Fisheries and I don't know, would this include the Lake Winnipeg Fisheries as well? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. H. ENNS: So the only thing that's missing, and I'll never forgive a former Parks director for this, is a major park in the Interlake in terms of development and so forth on the - (Int erjection) oh, no, pardon me, we have Hecia; that's right, but that's far away. I was thinking of it close; I was thinkin g around St. Laurent, but anyway. Can the Min ister give us some ind ication of this branch's work, the number of problems, enforcement problems?

Do they have a specific problem in the Interlake with poaching, for instance, to be specific? HON. A. M.ACKLING: Well, Mr. Chairman, yes, we have had substantial incidents of problems and the Interlake 2604

Tuesday, 10 May, 1983 is certainly not unique. As a matter of fact, as the ·. honourable member points out, perhaps because of its close proximity to the city probably the incide nce though is somewhat greater. In this region we've had 54 charges laid in 1982, one-half of them against Treaty Indi ans. We have a very substantial park, the Hecia Park; we have wayside parks; we have beach areas in the Interlake, of course, that receive many, many thousands of people.

We have a high incide nce, therefore, of people involvement in this region and that reflects the very substantial number of staff we have in this region. I should acknowledge that in our Field Services, in our NROs we ha ve not only males, we have females. I don't know whether I recounted to this committee the fact that ... no, I guess I didn't, because in one of my tours to commun ities respecting commercial fishing, I believe it was at Winn ipegosis or just south of Winn ipegosis, we called in at a Forest Ranger Tower, and our NAO there was a female.

And she climbs that tower, and comes down again in a matter of less than a minute, I believe a very, very enthus iastic and efficient and I must say charming Natural Resou rce Officer. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, there's always been a hope I think and some effort made at, particularly in this area of the departmental work. to provide for greater employment opportunities to our Native people. Can the Min ister ind icate to the committee how many of his personnel in this area of work are of Native extract ion, either Metis or Treaty In dian?

In fact, is there - what is the term? - an Affirmative Action Program involved in trying to bring more Native emplo yees into this area of respo nsibi lity for the department? It surely has to be an area of work that for any number of reasons it would be desirable to do so. There are problems of commun ications and working with and seeking the co-operation of Native people with respect to the responsibilities of the department in this, and all other. As I'm just using the Interlake area as one region; these questions apply to all regions of course but they apply particularly to the Interlake. HON. A.

MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member is quite right. An Affirmative Action Program on the part of government is appropria te in this area. In respect to staff presently employed, we have four, five-men Firetac crews that are predominantly Native people. I would like to compliment the work of our Fir etac crews. I was out at Beaver Creek at a demonstration - well, it's actually a contest that they hold of fire crews demons trating their ability to be able to put out a fire. They have specific tasks that they have to accomplish and they're timed, and they take great pride in the work.

They're very enthusiastic and I'll tell you it's inspiring to see some of our crews. They're in full gear, and that means generally rain apparel of some kind, carrying many hundr eds of pounds - well it looked like hun dreds of pounds, maybe it isn't hundr eds of pounds, many pounds anyway - of hose and equipment and going through an exercise that depends on speed . We have 14 trap-line officers in our Northern regions and a very large number of these officers are Native and Metis people.

I might also say, and I don't know how much publicity has been given to this as yet, in the program recently annou nced by the Minister of Education and the Minister of Labour , we are dev eloping our own Resource Mana gement Assistants. And we are going to have 10, I believe the num ber is 10, enrol led at Keewat in Community College this next season. The purpose, or at least one of the criteria will be to try and develop more affirmative action involving Native people in the dev elopment of the skills necessary for Na tural Resource Officers. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I'm aware, of course, of the work that the Firetac crews have been doing; they have been there for some little while; also aware of the trap line officers. I suppose the question I'm asking is, is this a marked increase in terms of Native employment in the departments, say, since 198 1? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I don't know whether I could use the adjective "marked." I think that we have been endeavo uring to assist any career opportunity for Native people.

I might say that I think I recall reporting last year that I believe there was one Nat ive person as a Natural Resource Officer; my und erstan ding is that there are three now. The Resource Ma nagement Assistants, I could elabor ate somewhat on tha t Mr . Chairman, if the honourable member would like the information. It's assumed that initially it will be part-time. One person started on the 7th of May at Split Lake and he's assigned to work with a regional fish biologist.

We have two trainees starting May 16th at Cross Lake and Nelson House; both of these people are Treaty Indians, they previously worked as fire rangers and trap-line officers. The training program will include report writing at the Keewatin Commun ity College; the Churchill goose study, a two week study; field activities with fish and wildlife biologists and fire rangers during the summer months. We are holding interviews at Moose Lake on May 17th for 15 appl icants seeking the Resource Ma nager assistant position at Moose Lake.

We have 15 applicants were interviewed and 7 will be hired on June 1, 1983 in resource related areas for training and development with potential entry to the Resources School. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the Minister's plans for the future and his hopes, but the point that I'm really trying to make is, what was the complement of Native, or of Native-extraction employees in the department in 1981, as compared to tod ay, 1983? Can the Min ister tell me that? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I haven't had definitive information offered to me by staff.

I indicated that my recollection last year was that I confirmed one with certainly - maybe it was two. Oh, I'm advised by Mr. Nespor that there have been three for quite some time and that is why, Mr. Chairman, we have launched an initiative that the Resou rce Manager Assistance Program hopefully will provide the base for us to be enabl ed to get mo re Na tiv e people inv olv ed in governmental work including, of course, the work of this department. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I won't pursue the point any furth er. The point that becomes obvious, of course, 2605

Tuesday, 10 May, 1983 is firstly, the need for continued effort in this direction. But, secondly, the Conservative Party has been, from time to time, accused of not showing sufficient concern or regard for our Indian brothers, particularly in terms of seeking to provide employment opportunities for them within government. I think the Minis ter has put on the record that the present administration is certainly attempting to pursue that same course, but, in fact, has perhaps added one or two employees of Indian extraction to that of those that were employed during the Cons ervative years. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 12.(d) (1) to 12.(h) (1) -pass; 12.(h)(2) - the Member tor Roblin-Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister advise me what kind of equipment do the conservation officers have in the Roblin-Dauphin area, to go out and deal with the nightlighters and the four-wheel dr ives and the aircraft that are in there harvesting wildlife? My talks with the staff in that area tell me they are not properly equipped and they don't have the staff and they can't deal with the problem. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, the staff in that region have modern equipment in the form.of ... MR. W.

McKENZIE: Well, spell it out, would you please? HON. A. MACKLING: ... four-wheel drive vehicles. They also have air surveillance by aircraft, two-way commun ication between airc raft and the ground vehicles. They also have excellent working relationships with the Royal Canadian Mo unted Police in respect to backup, in respect to apprehensions or violations. We also transfer or move natural resource officers where there is a need because of a high incidence of reputed illegal activity in an area. As I indicated earlier, we find that can be particularly effective. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr.

Chairman, first of all with the RCMP service that the Minister has put on the record, I hope that he goes over and talks to the Attorney­ General's Department from time to time to unde rstand what's going on in the country with the RCMP. First of all, we can't afford the service, and secondly, they don't have the time to come out and deal with these matters unless there's a special call and the services are delayed sometimes for days, to try and come up and pick up these matters.

I wonder does the Minister know that there's vigilante groups that have set themselves up in my constituency - I think there's five already in place, who are now out at night, 24 hours a day, patrolling the area for unlocked doors, for wildlife violations, for the problems that the law enforcement officers can't deal with in this province tod ay. In my lifetime, Mr . Min ister, 'I've never seen the day when we have to have vigilante groups organizing themselves to try and deal with these problems and they're serious problems.

When you get people that are prepared to go out and work 12 llours all through the night, to try and enforce the wildlife regulations and the RCMP regulations in our province, it's a pretty sick society. I wonder does the Mini ster know it's that bad and if he doesn't know, I invite him to come out to my constituency and see how these vigilante groups are operat ing. They are there and they're working and they're operating. MR. H. ENNS: Socialists breed vigilantes, Wally. MR. W. McKENZIE: Well, I don't know, but I'm most concerned, because I talk to conservation officers.

The cons erva tion officers tell me they don' t have the equipment to deal with these problems, nor do they have the manpower. The RCMP - you can check with the Attorney-General - Gilbert Plains and Grandview are two examples that can't afford that kind of a police service anymore. It's beyond their tax means. So what's happening - they're certainly busy - the police forces, Mr. Min ister, but what's happening is vigilante groups are now established and they're putting signs up on people's fence posts and doors. They're going to guard their property and the wildlife population of the area through the night hours.

I just raise it. I don't know if the Minister of the department knows anything about it, or does he understand that it's going on? HON. A. llllACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I sympathize with th ose people who perceive th at the in cidents of vandalism or theft or crime is such that they want to do something positive in connection with being of assistanc e to law enforcement officers and our conservation officers, or Natural Resource officers, in connection with wildlife violations. But please, Mr.

Chairman, I don't believe that these people should be given the term "vigilante groups." I'm sure that the common perception or the conno tation of vigilante is one who would take the law into their own hands. I don't think that's what these people obviously are doing. I thinll!Jhat throughout the various commun ities, there are ped'pte who have developed the technique - you may call it the "community watch technique", where th ey assist in reporti ng viola tions or suspicious circumstances and that is an assistance to our Natural Resources officers. We need community assistance to enforce the law.

We need people who are prepared to say that they have seen a violation of The Wildlife Act. Certain ly, we count on, rely on community support and to the extent that we have people who are actively watching to ensure that the laws aren 't broken, that people aren't enabled to do things and get away with them; that is an assistance to us.

I don't categorize that kind of activity as vigilante activity; it's community watch activity; it's being involved, being concerned, and assisting law enforcement officers, the RCM Police and the natural resource officers in doing an effective job, and that complements; it doesn't take away from what we do. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, can I ask the Honourable Min ister, do es he and his staff and the department support these people that are out patrolling our area through the night. Is he prepared to give his staff in the area their support and work with them?

Does he recognize that they are a viable force - they're volunteers, mind you, but they are there and they're alive, and I think there's five that I know of that are operating tod ay. 2606

Tuesday, 10 May, 1983 The other point that really anno ys me, because we come to Other Expenditu res in this item and we see a considerable cut in dollars, which my colleague has already raised, the dollar's likely gone to this new rink in Winn ipeg - (I nterject ion) - Kostyra's got the bucks - and all these problems we have out in the country where people now have to go and police their own property. I don't think in my lifetime I've ever heard of this before, Mr. Chairman. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, we are living in a highly materialistic and a highly mobile and somewhat volatile age.

There's no question but the incide nce of vandalism, the incide nce of theft, has not diminished in the last decade, if anything it's increased. Whether it be in rural areas or whether it be in urban areas, there are people who, in light of these circums tances, have organized devices to help assist the police and those charged with the respo nsibility of enforcing our laws.

We have block programs in the City of Winn ipeg to assist people, I'm happy, not unha ppy, to see in rural areas people taking a vigilant attitude towards improper activity, not in a way where they act as peace officers, because they are not peace officers, but where they actively assist us, and certainly we welcome that and have made clear that we will certainly be happy to respond to the advice that they give, because I'm sure that they are going to be an assist to us in being able to have many more eyes and many more ears to be able to see and listen to the activity that takes place within the countryside.

That is a definite positive assist to us and we welcome it. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr . Chairman, I thank the Honourable Min ister for his comments. The greatest thing that could happen out there at this particular time is for the Min ister or his staff to go into the Game and Fish Association of Russell, Roblin, Grandview, Gilbert Plains and say, look, we'll work with your vigilantes and try and clean up - (Int erjection) - well, the Min ister shies away from it. They are there and they're alive and they're functioning tod ay, so he says he's going to have no part of those people at all.

What's the reason those people are there today? The reason is because somebody is not doing their job, whether it's this Minister's department or it's the Attorney-Gener al's Department, I don't know. But why are these groups being struck up, and they're there tod ay, Mr. Chairman. The Min ister throws up his hands in disgust and says, no, I don't want no part of that. - (I nterjection) - Well, they are there, I'm telling the Honourable Min ister they're there and all he has to do is go out and talk to these people and recognize their concerns.

Their concerns are exactly the resolution as raised by the Member for Turtle Mountain; they see what's going on in the Duck Mountains, they see the unfair tactics and the illegal practice of hunting that's going on in there and they're fed up right to there. I'm asking the Minis ter tonight, and his department, to co-operate with these people and see if we can't - and I'm sure, these are not people who are going to go out and gun down somebody on the street. They're there to protect the property, the wildlife and the safety of the people in the area, and they're doing it for nothing.

Am I asking an unfair question of the Min ister to co­ operate with them? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I apologize to my col leagues if I appear ed to flinch ever ytime the honourable member used the word "vigilante". MR. W. McKENZIE: Well, what do you call them? HON. A. MACKLING: Well, they are community watch organiza tio ns. The word "vigilante" has a very dis tasteful conno ta tion in North America because vigilantes in times past apprehended people and gave them

summary capital punishment. They were oftimes hung by the neck with rudi mentar y tri a ls. - (I nterjection) - The honourable member has a problem with that definition? No. So I don't think it's fair to characterize these people who are concerned about being an assist to enforce the law as vigilantes, because they don't take the law into their own hands, I'm sure, and summarily treat people whom they believe have committed an illegal act.

We're happy, as I say, to be able to hear from these people when it's opportune for them to let us know about an alleged illegality, because we will be resp ons ive to th at kind of information. We're sure that it's given in the best interests of enforcement of our game laws. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, I apologize, maybe for raising the word "vigilante". That's the only word that crossed - may I call them freedom fighters? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, we are very upset, particularly with Item (j), we're dealing with (

j) Field Services and Enforcments. MR. CHAIRMAN: Let.'s pass (

h) first. MR. H. ENNS: Okay. MR. CHAIRMAN: (h)(2)- pass; 12.(j)(1) - the Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, we have noted on all too many of this department's and this Min ister's Estimates, where it involves bringing the service to the people, whether it's in Engineering Services, or whether it's in the other services in the wildlife area, we have made those objections known to you. But Mr.

Chairman, in the field of Enforcement, this Min ister has, on nu merous occasions, stood up in the House, told us about the serious poaching problem that we're facing, told us about the millions of pounds of fish that are being illegally caught and shipped out of this provi nce, told us in dramatic terms about what he intends to do about it, and what we see here, once again a reduction from $222,000 to $186,000 on this particular item. Mr. Chairman, we can't do what we want to do because it takes a message from Her Honour , that is to double this appropriation. All we can do, Mr.

Chairman, and I want to put it clearly understood, is that we wish to have a recorded vote in opposition to this item. We do not want to pass this item; we are not in support of this item; it is not sufficient to carry out the 2607

Tuesday, 10 May, 1983 problems and the responsibilities that the Min ister himself has ind icated the branch faces in this regard. Mr. Chairman, I would ask you to call these items and register our opposition to it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are we going to have a voice vote? HON. A. MA CKLING: Mr. Chairman, I want to comment. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister will have a say first. He will use persuasive powers. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Chairman, I assume that the honourable member's conerned about the reduction of $35.8 thousand in Other Expenditures on this item, and the note I have is that we have a maturing organization, we've had training programs that now are no longer vital, and that accounts for a reduction of some $19.3 thous and of that $35.8 thousand. We, Mr. Chairman, were engaged at the time of Estimates Review internal ly, governmentally, in a very precise agonizing way in looking at every sect ion of the department to ensure that where we could we would only spend the dollars that we had to.

In this case, there is some reduction, but it is not a very large reduction. The gross reduction was 35.8, of which $19.3 thousand was a reduction in training programs, which we felt were no longer vital or absolutely necessary. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the anx iety of the honourable member is not very well-founded. In respect to our activities regarding enforcement, there are a number of charges that are now before the courts and the honour able member mentioned them and I would like to put it on the record. I think there is no problem with my putting this on the record.

There are a number of charges: 10 felony charges that have been laid by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service resulting from the co-ord inated activity of our branch with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service; 38 ind ictable offences; 7 further felony charges against a company, Rainy Lake International; 38 State charges by the State of Min nesota; 10 felony cha rges against ano ther individual - I should give these names. The first one was Brian Denchuk, the company was Rainy Lake In ternational, and the third person I referred to was a Colin MacKay. There is a total of 112 charges that have been laid.

This was an extensiv e amoun t of work and no twiths tand ing the difficulty in investigation, the department has done - and I want to commend them - an excellent job in getting these charges before the courts. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, that doesn't take away from the fact that in Field Services and Enforcement we are facing no increase in budget; and a decrease in Other Expenditur es.

At a time when the government generally is spending 18 percen't more, this Minister - and quite correctly I might add - has brought to the attention of all members of the House the serious problems that the department is facing with respect to illegal taking of game and fish. By his own admission, if I want to go back and read Hansard back to him, he indic ates that we are probably only scratching the surface or tip of the iceberg. Certainly there are suggestions that in the amount of bootlegged fish that can be reported , that it is possibly much higher.

I can't find any other better way to register our opposition to the inadequacy of this appropriation by asking the Chairman to call a vote. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I would also like to ind icate the enforcement statistics for the current period. The total occurrenc es in 1982-83, 8,520; total occurrences in the period April 1st to May 4th, 1983, 354; of that total of 8,520, 2,861 were nu isance wildlife occurrences; total prosecutions in 1982-83 were 2, 289; and total prosecutions between April 1st to May 4th, 1983, 101. Mr. Chairman, the Department hasn't been slow in dealing with these things.

I think the level of activity, unfortun ately, is high. I say unfortuna tely because they involve prosecutions, but I don't think that we have been neglecting the work that has to be done. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, it is not a question of the Department not carrying out their duties as best they can with the resources they have. It is a question of this Min ister, around that Cabinet table, getting the necessary resources to run this Department properly. That is what we are talking about and that's what we want to vote against, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: As many as are in favour of passing 12.(j)( 1), say aye; as many as are opposed say nay. The ayes have it. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Hand vote. MR. A. ANSTETT: Hand vote. MR. CHAIRMAN: All in favour, raise your right hand. MR. A. ANSTETT: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman. MR. D. ORCHARD: Oh, no, why don't you go back to B.C. MR. CHAIRMAN: State your point of order, please, the Member for Springfield. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Chairman, we are carryi ng on with an awkward practice if we allow count-outs in a

section of a committee, when the committee only sits as a sec tion. If there is a request for a count, that's a req ue st for yeas and nays, which req uires the sounding of the buzzers and a division. MR. H. ENNS: The same point of ord er, Mr. Chairman. It's not a reque st for yeas and nays; it's a question for a simple hand vote in the committee. It can be done and has been done before. MR. A. ANSTETT: To the same point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The same point of order, the Member for Springfield. MR. A. ANST ETT: I agree that it has been done and it has been improper every time. I therefore request yeas and nays. I hope I have support for this. 2608

Tuesday, 10 May, 1983 MR. D. ORCHARD: Has he got support, Mr. Chairman? - (Int erjection) - You guys are goofy! You have got us out-voted, you just won it down 7 to 5. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. H. ENNS: I wond er, Mr. Chairman . . . l\ll R. CHAIRMAN: Do we want to facilita te the proceedings of this Hous e? The ayes have it and we can stop this. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I sense some hesitation on the part of the Chair and on the part of the Clerk advising the Chair . It is my understanding that a simple vote in committee is not out of order .

We are not requesting yeas and nays, which is a recorded vote, where the individual members are polled and named. I am not asking for a recorded vote. I am asking for a vote on this particular appropriation in the manner we just had. That to my best recollection has taken place in the committees on previous occasions without the dire consequences that the honoura ble member refers to, bearing in mind that members of the opposition can in no way increase appropriations being asked for, we don't have tha t autho rity . We can only sho w our displeasure by asking an item to be deleted.

We are not even asking that it be deleted, we are simply expressing a displeasure at the amount being shown. Speaking for the opposition, and you have your numbers here, we simply want that recorded with a hand vote. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Springfield. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Chairman, with respect to the Member for Lakeside, yeas and nays in Committee of Supply is not a request for the naming of individual members, it is a request for a count-out, just as was requested in this committee, but this committee is only a

section of the whole Committee of Supp ly. What has been done in the past and was done throughout the '70s, when this practice of split Committees of Supply was first established, was for the buzzers to be sounded, members to assemble in the Chamber, where the count­ out was conduc ted if that committee was also sitting. It is a count-out with the Clerk counting, not naming the members who support the motion in committee. That's a standard count-out in any committee. I submit that where we have had a count-out and a split committee before, it was irregular and improper.

The Rules Committee ruled on that question in 1975 or '76 and agreed that a split Committee of Supply could not have cou nt-outs for one very simpl e rea son; th at majorities could be moved back and forth from various sections of a split committee. Our Rules Committee reports are fairly clear on it, but our Rules specifically are silent on it and I am concerned about us continuing to indulge in a practice that could lead - I say it quite bluntly, my reason for raising this point to the defeat of a government motion in a split committee, which would then have to go to the full committee to be turned around.

That's an embarrassment to the government, and even though there's a government majority here tonight, there might not be tomorrow night or next week and I don't think the government should be put in that position repeatedly where those majorities could be moved from

section to section. That's why I raise the point. I don't think there's any argument, in terms of past Rules Committee consideration, against it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the Member for Sprin gfield would have to withdraw his request for the counted vote in the House before the request of the Member for Lakeside would be able to be dealt with. Other than that, as I und erstand this committee, the Member for Spri ngfield has called for a vote in the House and at this point, we have no other alternative but to proceed. It's not a debatable motion.

I can see no other alternative but for him to withdraw that motion and for us to have the counted vote here. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, one of the problems is that when a bureaucrat becomes a politician, we get into these areas. The point I wanted to make, as far as I'm concerned, has been made. We register our strongest objection to this appropriation in its present form.

We've indicated by a voice vote that we're opposed to it and I'm prepared to leave it at that and withdraw my request for a hand vote, if that satisfies the Honour able Member for Springfield, but it will not satisfy the people of Manitoba, Mr. Chairman. They want some protect ion out there; they want some enforcement out there. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Springfield. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Chairman, I'll withdraw my request for yeas and nays. MR. CHAIRMAN: 12.(j) (1) is then passed by a voice vote; 12.(j)(2) - the Member for Lakeside. MR. H.

ENNS: On Fire Suppression, can the Minister give us an update about the current fire situation. I ap precia te the fact tha t in No rthe rn Ma ni toba, particularly, we've had more snow cover and more moisture than in other years and subsequently have been fortuna te in not having as serious a fire problem as we've had in some other years. But the committee would appreciate an updating of the fire suppression activities of the department at this point. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to ind icate that last year we had a total of 425 fires; to this date last year, we had a total of 79 fires; to this date this year, we've had a total of 72. I might say that I have recently had occasion to look at the results of the effectiveness of our water bombing in arresting fire development. We've had two fires in the Whiteshell this month, an area that is of course prime forest, but it is a prime recreation area as well, and the use of the 2609

Tuesday, 10 May, 1983 water bombers has been very effective in arresting or holding the fires so that they could be put out in a relatively short time. The department has completed arrangements in respect to the engagement of equipment and I think they're in a high state of readiness. I don't doubt, providing we have a reasonable fire period, that we can expect that with the kind of attack crews we now have, the incidence of significant loss can be reduced.

That is not to say that we can't have another major fire, but we have spent a good deal of time, effort and money in increasing our readiness to deal with fires. We have lightning arresters now positioned throughout the province to confirm lightning strikes so that we're better ready and equipped to deal with those incidents. We have seven comm ercial suppr ession aircr aft cont racts completed. If the members want further detail of all of that, Mr. Nespor is pointing out to me that we have 24 Firetac crews distributed throughout the province in high-risk areas. We're in a good state of readiness. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 12 .(k) (1 )- pass; 12 .(k) (2)- pass; 12.(m)(1 )- pass; 12.(m) (2)- pass; 12. (m) (3)- pass. Resolution No. 127: Resolved that there be granted to Her Maj esty, a sum not exceeding $20,469,600 for Natural Resources for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1984-p ass. We are now in 13.(a)(b)(c)(d) - Expenditu res Related to Capital Assets. The Honourable Min ister. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I wond er, before we start, if we could have distribution of the material that we have here. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, A. Anstett: The Member for Lakeside. MR. H.

ENNS: I suppose, perhaps, the easiest way to start consideration of this most important aspect of the Minister's spending estimates is, when you consider that in the year just passing we spent some $17,943,500 on this item of Acquisition/Construction of Physical Assets and are intending to spend some $11 ,386, 100 this year, a reduction of over $6 million. So, the easiest way to start discussion on this is, what has been cancelled as a result of the $6 million reduction? Can the Min ister - not to the penny, Mr.

Chairman, I'm reasonable - but can the Mini ster indicate to us some of the major projects that obviously are being deferred, that had been on the planning stage for which, in the case of a drain, perhaps right-of-way had been purchased, or design work had been completed, can the Min ister indicate some of the major projects that are being deferred? HON. A. MACKUNG: Well, Mr. Chairman , it's difficult to give immediate precision to the honourable member's request - oh, wait a minute, he's not here. MR. J. DOWNEY: Just carry on. We are prepared to carry on. It goes on the record, if you didn' t know it. HON. A.

MACKLING: No, but I'd rather not repeat it, and I think I'd like the honourable member ... MR. D. SCOTT: He was more interested in coffee. HON. A. MACKLING: No, no, come on now. MR. D. SCOTT: He could have sent somebody else. MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I noticed that there is nothing under the Water Resources Capital Expenditur es which relates to the flood protection project at the Town of Carman, and I'd like to ask the Minister that since that project the diversion around Carman was the No. 1 water-related project in the government's "wish list," did that indicate its priority to be the first one funded should the Federal Government participate in any funding? HON. A. MACKUNG: No, Mr. Chairman.

What it did reflect was that the position that this government took that there were a number of capital projects, which we, quite frankly, couldn't conceive of pursuing in the very near future because of the dollars involved and the type of fiscal position of the province, and given the broad general indication that the Federal Government had provided that they would look at capital projects generally, we did want to have a spectrum of capital projects from which they could choose.

So, we did add in two water-related projects that we thought might be of interest to them and we haven't certainly had any confirmation yet as to the Federal Government's desires there. MR. D. ORCHARD: Then do I assume from what the Min ister is saying that the diversion at Carman has no status in the provincial priority list unless there is federal participation? HON. A. MACKLING: Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't want any particular conclusion to be drawn from the fact that it is not included on a priority list. All of the water­ related concerns have to be looked at on their merits.

At the present time, that project is not on our list for implementation now, or in the very near future. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the Minister was kind enough to come out to the R.M. of Thompson last fall and tour a project that was being studied for water ret ention in the escarpment within the R.M. of Thompson , and I think it's fair to say that the Mini ster was reaso nably impressed with the kind of direction they were proposing to take. Can I ask the Minister if the provincial department has any active participation in the ongoing study there with PFRA? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Chairman, the honourable member is quite correct, there is a study under way by PFRA. We do have staff assisting. The main staff are funded by PFRA. The report has not been received yet in connection with that study. MR. D. ORCHARD: Now , could the Minister indicate whether the type of project envisioned would fall within the capital projects that the province might be willing to cost share with the Federal Government, because 2610

Tuesday, 10 May, 1983 I believe PFRA is looking at it from the standpoi �t of placing capital dollars? Would the province be willing to cost share with PFRA? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I wouldn't want to really comment by way of any speculative assessment of what the report will be. We would certainly want to look at the benefit cost ratios, see what the Federal Government is prepared to fund before we would consider our deci sion. There's also the social environ mental impa cts of the dev elopment.

It's something that - well, you don't make a snap decision, nor do you speculate on what decision you're going to make until you have the study. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, that's in teresti ng, Mr. Chairman. I think the study will prove long-term benefit; there' s no question about that. Mr. Chairman, on another area, are there any ongoing discussions, studies, or plans on the Pembilier or Pembina Dam proposals on the Pembina River? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I believe that earlier when we were in the Estimates of our Water Resources Division, I had ind icated that the U.S.

Army Corps of Engineers had completed their preliminary report. We haven't seen that, although we understand that it's a relatively negative report and the final report will be submit ted to the Bu reau of Recl amation, presumab ly, or the Corps of Army Engineers gets the final report. But from what we're given to understand, while at the outset they were optimistic as to the cost benefit ratio, that doesn't appear to be the case now. Now it may be that the waiting on some things has varied, I don't know, but it doesn't sound very optimistic. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Did the pr ovi nce ha ve any participation in the Corps of Engineers' Study? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, we worked with the Corps in respect to an evaluation of the benefits in Canada and provided that input. That's pretty well the extent of our contribution. MR. D. ORCHARD: Now I noticed that there is no capital expenditure at Pelican Lake. There was, I recall, some scheduled improvements at the east end of the lake which would allow trans fers of water in the spring. I don't see any continuation of that project.

Is it fair to assume that that's one of the projects that has been pulled by the Min ister? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, that project I don't think had ever been provided an appropriation of money. I stand corr ected on that, Mr. Chairman. I am partly correct. Last year, we did not have funds. Apparently there were funds in 198 1 on that item. We didn't have it last year. I have had several meetings with muni cipal officials and others concerned about Pelican Lake.

I have made it clear that as a prerequisite to consideration for government funding for that project, that we would want to see some significant measure of local contribution. I think there is a measure of support for that, but it's been difficult for us to pin down the extent to which the municipalities are prepared to provide equipment or provide a portion of the work to be done and have it completed. We want to have some specific identification of what the R.M. s are prepared to do before we consider what the province might fund. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, that's very interesting, Mr.

Chairman, that funds were available in 198 1, and obviously not expended, weren't carried forward in last year's Budget and don't appear again this year. It's also interesting to note that the Minister now .sees a possibility existing from municipal participation. I can say to the Minister that probably he's correct.

There might be a willingness of the municipalities to participate to get something done, but it's a willingness that is only stemmed from pure desperation, because the Min ister has pulled the funds that were allocated and carried over and pulled them and put them elsewhere and not proceeded with any expenditure whatsoever, so that the Minister may well be correct.

But simply pointing out the willingness does not explain the reason for the willingness, and I suggest the reason for the willingness of the municipalities to all of a sudde n start joint funding - a provincial respo nsibility - is from pure desperation. They want to get something done there; they can see that this government is not at all interested in anything south of No. 1 Highway in terms of recreation facilities and, naturally, they may be open to the suggestion of a jointly funded project with them picking up part of the bill.

I just have to register with the Minister my dismay that he has seen fit to pull that project. Last year might have been excusable in terms of rearran ging his priority, but to leave it out again this year clearly ind icates that the Minister has no intention of doing anything there. It's further more clearly indicated he doesn't want to do anything to assist the recreation potential of Pelican Lake by the fact that now he's talking about a joint project involving municipal funding. HON. A. MACKLING: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm not going to engage in any vitu perat ive deba te with the honourable member.

I'm going to put on the record the fact that the concerns about Pelican Lake have been of long standing. Governments of the past have had mon ey on the books and haven 't spent it. Opportunities existed over the course of many years to deal with this problem, and the fact that it hasn't been dealt with up until now does reflect, I suppose, on many people and on a number of administrations. I'm not going to criticize anyone for a quick solution of the problem there. I know that lake has a checkered history.

It is a history of flooding; of complaints by cottagers of high water; demands for lower water; concerns about the need for more water. It has a history of flooding and low level or very low conditions on that lake. At the present time, because of the weather pattern and the relative low precipitation levels in southwestern Manitoba, the lake is admittedly low and there's concern about getting more water in the lake, and that's a valid concern; but my staff indicate to me there isn't an easy cheap solution to it. To do it right, one would have to provide not only an introduction of water from the 2611

Tuesday, 10 May, 1983 Pembina River, but a control mechanism to ensure that high water could be released from the lake, so that we wouldn't be invo lved in a situation where we get flooding again and inn umerable complaints from the cottage owners to the reverse of what we have now.

One of the concerns we've had is that if we engage in any work, in addition to getting some municipal contribution, because the work is largely to the benefit of the recreation interest there, the cottagers, we would like to see some significant local input, and we'd like to see some clear commitment on the part of the cottagers that they would waive claims in the event that by introduction of more water and unusual buildup of rain, or whatever , that high water level would occasion some flooding. We don't want to be involved in being damned, Mr. Chairman, both ways on this, and it's not been an easy one.

I've spent a lot of time meeting with people; I've met with respresentatives of the R.M.s in Mor den, and we are genuinely concerned to be able to provide a long-term solution there, but we do want to see some significant local contribution and we want to see a significant commitment on the part of the cottage owners to hold government blameless for our efforts ii we should decide to go ahead with remedial action there. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, Mr.

Chairman, those are all very brave words from the Min ister, and I appreciate all of the discussions he's had with people, the cottage owners, municipal people, etc., out there. He mentions the complexity of resolving the problem, and how there may be some expense involved. Well, I can assure the Min ister that when he has pulled the funding that was available to divert water from the Pembina to the Lake, that inaction certainly is going to do nothing to even partially resolve the problem at Pelican Lake.

The Min ister, no doubt, will have several other meetings and several other requests for action, and I would only hope that when we are at this stage of the Estimates next year, that we might see some of those efforts on behalf of the municipal people, and the landowners, cottage owners, bear fruition with some action on the part of the Min ister. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur . MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Member for Lakeside had asked some questions dealing with those projects that had been deleted from the capital program for the Department of Natural Resources and Water Resources, and I probably maybe would have been more fair to allo w the Minister to respond, but as I sit here and listen and look at the maps and the proposals that are put forward by the Department of Water Resources and the present government, I become totally disgusted to the point of which one would look at the map and remember some of the comments that were made probably three or four years ago when referenc·e was made to some of the roads that were not being looked after in Manitoba by our government, which was the reverse, where there was atte ntion paid to rural Mani toba and the dev elopment th at was taking place with the infrastructure.

We are now seeing the reverse, Mr. Chairman, where we have a gover nment and a Water Resource Department that have cut some $6 million out of their water program for the development of drains or dams or that type of thing, and if you look at that, and I would invite anybody that's at this committee meeting to look at the kinds of projects and where they are located. Mr.

Chairman, this is a disgrace, and I'm not attacking the staff of the Department of Water Resources because they know precisely some of the critical areas that should be dealt with, but we are dealing with, I think, people who pay their taxes, th ey are legitima te Manitobans and they feel very strongly as a part of the Province of Manitoba, but being politically ignored and not being dealt with fairly by a government who pretend to be a government of the people of all the Province of Manitoba. I am disgusted, Mr. Chairman, with this kind of proposal.

I could name projects throughout the entire Province of Manitoba that could be dealt with. The Member for Pembina makes reference to the one at Pelican Lake, but you can go from the Souris Valley straight up to Swan River with projects and water resource development and the ponding of water so as you don't have the problems that are taking place in the lower watershed of the Hudson's Bay and in the Winnipeg and all these watershed areas. Mr.

Chairman, this Minister, who sits around the Cabinet Table of the Pawley Government, isn't even recognized as was the Minis ter of Highways, as was the Minister of Agriculture. He makes light of it. This is not a light situation, Mr. Chairman. This is a situation of resource development in the Province of Manitoba. Mr.

Chairman, the Member for lnkster is laughing and some of the members are taking it seriously, and I hoped they would, but the Member for lnkster is laughing at the fact that they have stripped the resource dev elopme nt bu dget of the Department of Water Resou rces, and I'm pleading for the staff of the Water Resource Branch, because they are going to be like the Department of Highways. They're going to have to hide and find something to do, because they're going to be paid 27.5 percent wage increase over the next 30 months, and what are they going to do with their time?

The agreement that was recently signed between the MGEA and the Government of Manitoba, they have a 27.5 percent increase, and what are they going to do? Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that this Minister of Natural Resou rces may as well save the additional $11 million and hire someone at $50,000 a year to dust off the water resource studies that have been put in place over the last few years, because that's precisely all the action that's going to take place, is a dusting off of reports and looking at those things that should be done.

He doesn't need to fool the rural constituents of Manitoba that he's going to do something. What is he doing, Mr. Chairman? His first proposal is, and I refer to the Hartney Dam situation, he says he will put a drain around it if the municipality pick up the maintenance of that drain. He's telling the people of the Constituency of Carman if they participate in the expenditure of that capital expenditure, then they can proceed with it He is transferring the responsiblity of wha t has been trad itionally the provincial re sponsi bility and the taxpayers of Mani toba's responsibility to the local taxpayers.

That is all he is 2612

Tuesday, 10 May, 1983 doing, is a transfer. He is not doing anything to further enhance the water supply or the water management within the Province of Manitoba. Let's make special reference to the Saskeram area. You know, there's a tip of the hat to the Member for The Pas - No. 16, you go to Swan River. The rest of them are either in NOP territory or they're within one­ half an hour or one hour's driving distance for the staff within the City of Winnipeg. There's not one project for the majority of the people of Manitoba who are affected by water in this province.

It's a disgusting disgrace, and if Howard Pawley and Al Mackling and any of you other people screw up your courage to come out and talk to the municipal councils and try and handhold that you 're doing something for them, then I'll let you know where you stand, because you are a disgusting disgrace to try and tell us that you'r e doing anything. I'll make sure that you, Al Mackling, and you and everyone of you won't return to the office of government again because you don't deserve the credits that go with it, because you can't justify the dollars you're spending as it is. Mr. Chairman, I rest my case. HON. A.

MACKL ING: Mr. Chairman. I am not going to sink to the level of the Honourable Member for Arthur in the kind of rash angry statements that he makes. MR. J. DOWNEY: You haven't heard the end of me yet. HON. A. MACKLING: He uses a lot of inaccuracy in his contribution . He says, for example, th at civil servants, including some of those . . . MR. J. DOWNEY: I didn't attack the civil servants. HON. A. MACKLING: . . . are going to get a 27 percent increase in the next 30 months.

Continues to not merely obfuscate, but to distort a voluntary reduction on the part of the civil servants in this province to enable this province to deal with the real problem of jobs in this countr y, in this province. Now, Mr. Chairman, the honourable member slaps the counter and talks _about the map. Well, we'll look at the map. Out of the 17 projects on the map, nine of them, nine of them, Mr. Chairman ... MR. J. DOWNEY: Within a half an hour of Winnipeg. HON. A. MACKLING: Well, they're certainly south of No. 1 Highway. MR. J. DOWNEY: Don't give me that. HON. A.

MACKL ING: We've heard hon ourable members from the opposition crowing and decrying that nothing takes place south of No. 1 Highway. Count them. MR. J. DOWNEY: I didn' t say that. HON. A. MACKLING: Oh, but your colleagues have said that then. You didn't say that tonight, but your colleagues have said that, that we don't know of anything south of the No. 1 Highway. MR. J. DOWNEY: I didn't say that. HON. A. MACKLING: Well, your colleagues have. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Arthur has a point of ord er. MR. J. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I did not make reference to south of No. 1 Highway. I made reference to the major rural parts of the province that lie within or that extend more than a half-an-hour's drive from the City of Winnipeg, Mr. Chairman. HON. A. MACKLING: Well, Mr. Chairman, I didn't say that he said it, but I know that members of his caucus, colleagues of his around this table have accused this Minister and others of ignoring anything south of No. 1 Highway. You look at the map and that statement is false, Mr. Chairman. Now, Mr.

Chairman, all of us have to face budget constraints, problems of trying to establish our priorities, but we have to face the realities of costs. The honourable member wants us to spend money, but when we ind icate that we have to raise taxes he attacks us on that score. You can't have it both ways. We have to realistically look at the money we have and determine our spending priorities. We think we've done a creditable job in respect to facing that problem. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It's interesting to see the Minister and hear the Min ister now say you can't have it both ways. That you can't spend money and you can't complain about taxes too. I don't recall that the New Democratic Party said during the elec tion th at th ey were going to be constrained by money not being available. That wasn't part of their platform. As a matter of fact, they told the people that they'd be able to pay for services through ManOil and Manitoba Hydro.

That was the way they were going to finance it and there was never any ind ication that it wouldn't be possible to continue to carry on the services and indeed to expand the services that government had. So all that we're asking for is that the government simply fulfil! its promises. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to return to the Pelican Lake situation again. The Min ister said th at other governments have had opportunities to have done something about that. I would like to tell the Min ister that project had been planned for some period of time.

It had reached the point in the fall of 1981 where I was told by staff that we could have let some of the contracts at that time to begin work on it, but that it wouldn't be possible to let the entire project because some land had not yet been acquired. But I was assured that the contracts would be let in the spring, just as other people in the area were assured that contracts would be let in the spring. That project had proceeded to that point. 2613

Tuesday, 10 May, 1983 What this Min ister has done is put a stop to it. Plain and simple this Min ister has put a stop to it. MR. D. SCOTT: That's a pile of crap. MR. B. RANSOM: Well, Mr. Chairman, the Member for lnkster says that's a pile of crap. I'd like to ask the Min ister then to confirm with his staff that this project had reached the point, in the fall of 1981, where portions of it could have been let for contr act and that the remainder was to be let for contract in the spring of 1982. MR. D. SCOTT: It wasn't, it was an election pork barrel. MR. B. RANSOM: Why don't you shut up? MR. D.

ORCHARD: Just to think we used to have Sid Green in here with some intelligence and we got a dummy like you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Min ister. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, there's no question but this matter was obviously a matter of concern to the Honour able Member for Turtle Mountain, I believe in whose constituency Pelican Lake resides. He, as Min ister of Natural Resources, I am sure, gave a high priority to this item, but notwithstand ing that, it was in the fourth year of the term when materials were finally readied for this project, but necessary land acquisitions had not been completed.

We were not in a position to complete the project because all the items had not been comple ted , particularly the land acquisition. MR. B. RANSOM: Can the Minister confirm then, by consulting with his staff, that the problems with land acquisition were some that staff thought had been taken care of earlier, but it found on looking further into the situation that a problem dated back for decades and that was the reason why there was some further delay? HON. A. MA CKLING: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that there was one longstanding problem, but that there were two relatively new acquisitions that were necessary. MR.

B. RANSOM: The Minister said that some materials had finally been acquired, or materials were finally ready. Can the Minister tell us how much material had been acquired for this project? HON. A. MACKLllllG: Mr. Chairman, the culverts and sheet piling were on order for the project. MR. B. RANSOM: Whal happened to the order? Did the Minis ter have it cancelled? HON. A. MACKLING: Well, the materials were used in other ongoing projects. We didn't waste them. MR. B. RANSOM: So what we have here, Mr.

Chairman, and I don't know why the Min ister doesn 't just simply acknowledge that that's the case, what we have here is a problem at Pelican Lake, a lake where there are hundr eds and hundr eds of cottages located. There are a great many people have an interest in that lake. A project had been planned and the position had been arrived at where we were ready to let contracts; people had every expectation that project was going to go ahead; and the Minister cancelled it. That's all. There's no reason why he shouldn't just simply admit that's what he did.

He cancelled the project and what he's done is - take a project like Lake Dauphin and put it onto the Jobs list. He didn' t even put this project onto the Jobs list, onto the "wish list." If he wanted this project to go ahead, why didn't he at least include it on that list? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I have indicated - I don't know whether the honourable member did hear my earlier remarks, because the Honour able Member for Pembina did address to me concerns in respect to this.

I pointed out in looking at the project, there was no question but there was a desire on the part of a number of people, particularly the cottagers for higher water levels. At the same token, the lake had been subjected to excessively high water levels at one time and we had complaints from the cottagers th at they were being floo ded . We kno w that the precipitation in the area has been, in the last five, six years, much reduced, so there is less water in the area. We are confident that at one time we are going to see a return of higher water levels.

We want to be assured that we're not going to be involved in any claims from the cottagers in respect to these proposed works. It is my belief that the cottagers and the municipalities should have some input into - and I'm talking about fiscal input - the kind of spending that they seek from the province here. MR. B. RANSOM: Is the Minister now telling us that one of the reasons he cancelled this project was because of concern over high water levels? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I did not cancel the project per se. The project was allowed to lapse really. It had not been completed. It hadn't been started.

Certainly a number of factors were of concern. The fact that there were a large num ber of people who had previously complained about high water levels, had even brought claims, I believe, agains t the Pr ovincial Go vernment in connection with them. Now we're seeking a significant public contribution to a recreational benefit. Quite frankly, we wanted to see a contribution, as I've ind icated, from the R.M.' s and from the cottagers and a greater sense of participation on their

part in respect to the size of this funding. We still do. l\ll R. B. RANSOM: Well, is one of the reasons then why the Min ister allowed the project to lapse, as he puts it, because of a concern for high water? HON. A. MACKUNG: No, Mr. Chairman. If the project had been completed to provide for a regulation, both in and out of the water, we were quite confident from an engineering point of view that the problems of high water would not likely face us. But we did want to see input from the area. 2614

Tuesday, 10 May, 1983 MR. B. RANSOM: Can the Minister confirm that is the way the project was planned, to have both an inlet and an outlet, because we were not prepared to proceed to put more water into the lake, without having some provision to take it out? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. B. RANSOM: Then what's the nonsense about high water that we're hearing from the Minister? Is this some vind ictive action that he's taken against some of the people who were on the lake before and caused problems for the government? He said he had two reasons.

One was he wanted local input and the other was that he had concern over high water. Now he's admitted there wouldn't be any concern over high water with the kind of plan that was in place. What the Minister has done, clearly, Mr. Chairman, is decide that he was going to cancel this project, period, and he can say he let it lapse, if he wants to say that he didn't cancel it, that he simply let the funds lapse - fine. He can go out and tell the people that at Ninette that, I really didn't cancel that project. All I did was let it lapse and there's quite a difference.

I'm sure the people will be very sensitive to that difference. What he's done is simply decide that he didn't want it to go ahead and he's cancelled it - the materials that were to be used in the project are going somewhere else and what he's doing is looking at projects of a similar nature in other areas, such as the project he has on the "Wish" List for Lake Dauphin. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member can categorize my actions any way he sees fit. I will not characterize his actions and be critical of them.

He had an opportunity when he was Min ister; he was in government for four years; this project was in his constituenc y; there had been a history of this problem for some time. Now to suggest that because I, as Minis ter, and my government feel that there should be some measure of local input into a considerable government spending for recreational purp oses in that area is irregular or improper, or somehow wrong, I don't accept that. We know, for example, Mr.

Chairman, that previous governments and this government and the Federal Government have insisted on contributions from local government in connection with improvement in water services, improvements in protection from floods. Now to suggest that our request for some input and some measurable input is demanding too much, I think, Mr. Chairman, is being overly critical and he can do it, but I do not accept it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I just want to interject that, first of all, to put it on the record that I, in fact, was the last Mi ni ster resp onsibl e for pre vious admin istration. I want tci ind icate to the honourable member and put it on the record - something that shou ldn't escape this Minister - that there was an eight­ year NDP admin istration prior to that brief fou r-year admin istration that the Member for Turtle Mountain and I had something to do, to address this problem. That we, in fact had those kind of meetings bringing about and asking for local input.

We didn't just plan moving water in and out of a lake, without discussing it with the area residents. Those discussions took place; a plan was drawn up and it was a good plan; and it's now acknowledged by the Minister that that plan would not present difficulties for the lake inasmuch as that the branch would be able to regulate the levels of that lake and avoid some of the difficulties that the Mini ster keeps referring to. So, Mr. Chairman, let's just put that on the record that it took those three or four years for us to put that in place and get it to the point where, in fact, contracts could be let.

This Minister chose to cancel the project. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: What this Minis ter is saying, Mr. Chairman, that we didn't do it in four years, what he is telling us, is that we should have cancelled the commitments that the previous government had made. We should have pul led the fundin g from the commitments that the Schreyer Government made, in order to get on with other projects that we might have seen of a higher order and that isn 't what we did, Mr. Chairman.

What we did was carry on to the extent of the funding that was available with the projects that were on the books. That's what we did, Mr. Chairman, and then we planned, in an orderly fashion, to undertake this particular development. But wha t we are getting from this Mi ni ster is cancellation of a project such as this. He moves in on a federal-provincial agreement in the Domain area and decides uni laterally to cancel that agreement because he doesn't happen to like the way that one was worked out and the fact that it might benefit some people. He wouldn't cancel the Abitibi agreement, though.

He stands here very piously and says he regards commitments and agreements to be something that have to be recognized by the government. So, Mr. Chairman, what we have with this Minister is that whatever the opportunity is at the time, whatever happens to suit him, then that's the decision he makes and he' ll worry about justifying it later. MR. CHAIRMAN: 13.(a) ... MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I have one particular question having to do with the clean-up operation on the upper Sturgeon Creek, is it? HON. A. MACKLING: East branch. MR. H. ENNS: East branch, a figure for $35,000.00.

I und erstand that's been outstanding for some time. Can the Minister indicate to me what the difficulty is? It's not a large amount; it's the final clean-up of that east branch of the Sturgeon Creek. Work apparently is done, the clean-up project may re quir e some additional work. I note that Highways has done some work in that general area and there may be some minor work that has to be continued, but the explanation for the outstanding amount of $35,000 final payment of hold back to contractor, what precisely is the problem that's holding back this $35,000 from the contractor involved? 2615

Tuesday, 10 May, 1983 HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I'm given to unde rstand there is some disagreement on the part of the department and the cont ractor as to the requirements of the contract, and I wouldn' t want to put on the record any speculation as to that because it may involve a dispute that will be the basis of a legal claim; I'm not sure. I gather that there is a difference of opinion as to the qualit y of the work or the specification of the work to be performed and that's the reason for the hold back. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, it's a long way; it's a long time. Among the items, Mr.

Chairman, that I assume have been deleted in the $6 million to $7 million reduction, is there any consideration for anything to be done in the Dennis Lake area in the central Interlake area? The Minister should be familiar with that situation. Again, I'm not suggesting that we were to the point of letting contracts, but certainly we were getting much closer to resolving that long-standing issue at Dennis Lake. Have we gone back to square one at Dennis Lake? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I'm happy that the honourable member has asked me about that.

I would not concur with him that any significant progress had been made on this prior to my becoming Min ister. That certainly is not what was indicated to me when the group attended at my office and the honourable member himself attended with them, and I was pleased to have the first introduction to that problem that had been long standing for, well, in excess of 20 years. I did visit out there with the regional engineer. I did meet municipal officials out there; toured the area.

We have under active consideration some proposals for works and I hope that later on I'll be able to confirm those to the honourable member. I would point out to the Honourable Member for Arthur that that happens to be not in St. James Constituenc y. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, but in the Capital Works Project currently before us, there is no appropriation for Dennis Lake? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, although there are no funds earmarked there, it is my expectation that funds will be available under the appropriation of the Jobs Fund. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Tu rtle Mountain. · MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Chairman, there's been a very significant reduction in the amount of capital that is available in the department now. Can the Min ister give us an indic ation of what sort of reduction in staffing there has been as a consequence of this cut in available capital? HON. A. MAC KUNG: Mr. Chairman, earlier in Engineering and Construction, I had indicated that there was a reduction of 14 staff years and I can review the highlights of that with the honourable member, should he wish. They were positions that were vacant, but if the level of the department's activity had required it, would have been filled. MR. B.

RANSOM: Is the Minis ter saying then that we have this year an $11 million capital program, last year we had almost an $18 million program, and the same staff is requir ed to carry out the $11 million program that was required to do the $18 million? HON. A. MACKLING: Well, Mr. Chairman, I beg your pardon; someone asked me another question. I'll deal with the first question. MR. CHAIRMAN: The question on the floor, not the informal one. HON. A.

MACKLING: The capital spending, although it's in the book at $11, 386,10 0, has to have added to it those works that have been allocated and earmarked for spending under the Jobs Fund, and there is $2.7 million of works there in which we will find some spending. I don't have the figures here. I won't deal with the dollar amounts. One of the items is Dennis Lake as I'v e ind icated. MR. B. RANSOM: Well, which projects under the Jobs Fund will go ahead then to make use of the staff which was available to carry out an $18 million program last year? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Chairman, there are parks initiatives; there are initiatives in respect to forestry nur series; there is the initiative in respect to Dennis Lake; and there is the spending in connection with the valley town dikes. MR. B. RANSOM: When are those projects going to begin? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, they are scheduled to certainly proceed during the course of this fiscal year. I can't give exact dates for start-up on some of these things. I think some of them may already be certainly in the work. The nurseries' spending is already in the work; and park initiatives, some of that is already in the work. MR. B.

RANSOM: What are these people doing now? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I don't unde rstand the question. MR. CHAIR MAN: What are these staff doing now? MR. B. RANSOM: Right. Well put. MR. J. DOWNEY: A good question, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. ORCHARD: That is rather a simple and direct question. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, we have a broad variety of program involving ail of the 17 projects that are listed here. We have a great diversity of work in connection with conservat ion districts, municipal work programs that we co-ordinate and assist; all manner of things, Mr. Chairman. 2616

Tuesday, 10 May, 1983 MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, has the Min ister overstaffed in the department as a consequence of this cut in capital, or are the jobs so-called created in the Jobs Fund simply a transfer of jobs from his department into the Jobs Fund? HON. A. MACKLING: I don't believe so, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, what do you believe? MR. B. RANSOM: Well, which is it, Mr. Chairman? There has to be one or the other. There's a reduction of over $7 million of capital. The deparment had staff last year to carry out an $18 million capital program.

Now the Min ister says that he's not going to be oversta ffed this year, and the reason he's not going to be overstaffed is that they're going to be working on projects that are in the Jobs Fund. Now the Jobs Fund was created to create jobs, new jobs, that was the big impetus that the government was und ertaking. Now either the Minister is overstaffed, he's either overstaffed in his department, or else the jobs and the work that is being done under the Jobs Fund are not new jobs at all.

So I would like some indication from the Min ister as to just which of those situations prevails, and if not then I would like some more specific ans wer from the Min ister rather than the generalities that we have been getting. HON. A. MACKLING: Well, Mr. Chairman, I had taken it as a given that all honourable members appreciated the fact that the government doesn't do all this work themselves. Our staff, our engineering construction, are not going to be doing all of the work invo lved in any one of the items that I've referred to.

In respect to the dev elopment of the plans, the programs, the specifications, all of our staff is required in respect to development of the plan of the program, but when we come to spend the dollars to get the work done, we are not going to hire the staff to do that in House. Those people will be hired, and emp loyed by general contractors who will bid for these various job initiatives. So to suggest that, you know, we've got surplus staff; we have staff and that is how government is operated from time immemorial. The major projects we put out for tender . We haven't changed anything.

We still need staff to develop the proposal, design the structure where there's a structure invo lved and supervise all that. We have no change in that policy or program. So to suggest that, you know, there's some mixup, some misunderstanding about jobs is completely ridiculous. MR. B. RANSOM: Well, Mr. Chairman, what the Min ister is telling us then that it takes the same amount of staff to design $11 million worth of work as it does to design $18 million worth of work, so presumably he can do $30 million worth of work with the same amount of staff. Now how many jobs are lost then by contractors?

If there's $7 million worth of work that's not being contracted out, there's $7 million worth of work that contractors aren't doing and the people aren't being hired to do. So while that money is going into the Jobs Fund to create jobs there, how many jobs are being lost by the contractors because they don't have this work to do anymore? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I'm not going to ind ulge in the kind of idle spe culation th at the honourable member wants me to do. I point out to him that, I don't know why his arithmetic fails him, but he continues to refer to capital of 11.3 million.

I've indicated that there's another 2.7 million. That makes a total of 14 million. MR. CHAIRMAN: 13.(a). The Hono urable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, another area that's been of constant concern to a particular group of farmers and that has to do with up north in The Pas area, the Pasquia area. We were certainly under some strong representat ion over the years about some further development work in that area. I note some reference to Pasquia Polders I and II amounting to some $160,000 for some land drainage reconstruc tion. But, Mr.

Chairman, the Min ister is well aware that in his other capacity as the Minister responsible for Wildlife trying to resolve the issue of land use up there in the Saskeram, he's being pressured on the one hand to maintain optimum use for wildlife purposes within the Saskeram. Would he no t concur th at dev elop ment of, for instance, Polder Ill, which is a major project, estimated to be anywhere from $10 million to $12 million back three years ago or four years ago, that at least out of consideration to his Member for The Pas that some initiative be shown at Pasquia on Polder Ill? HON. A. MACKL ING: Mr .

Chairman, I thank the honourable member for his question. I would like to comment on that. But first let me put on the record as well that the fact of our spending last year was, although we had voted $17 million, almost $18 million, the actual spending was $12 million. So for the honourable members to appear emotional or excited about a $14 million allocation budgeted spending as against 18 , in actual fact our spending was 12. Mr. Chairman, in respect to The Pas area and the Pasquia. True, the amount here is for reconstruction in Polders I and II.

We are spend ing, and I don' t know where this item is reflected, some $50,000 on soil and ground water testing in Polder Ill to determine the suitability of part of Polder Ill for agricultural production. Ho pefully tho se tests will confirm tha t there is a significant amount of land in Polder Ill that can be brought into agricultural production and we're certainly concerned to develop that if that's possible. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, in dealing Parks Capital Program. Can the Min ister ind icate just generally, how does this capital program in the Parks Division compare with say the previous year or two?

Is it up or down, are we do ing more or less? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, last year we had a voted authority of 3.8 actual spending. Mr. Chairman, 2617

Tuesday, 10 May, 1983 we had voted last year 3.8 million; it's 2.1 million say this year. That's the variation. The most significant red uction is in respect to in fras tructur e and improvements. MR. H. ENNS: You're going to let the toilets fall down. HON. A. MACKLING: But I would like to add the caveat that I'd ind icated earlier - that $800,000 is earmarked for work that will be job-intensive and allocated and spent out of the Jobs Fund. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Por tage la Prairie. MR. L. HYDE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm sorry, I stepped out of the committee for a moment or two there and I missed some maintenance. I trust that the Minister will accept me at this time. I want to mention a few things about the Delta Beach, if I may. Ther e's some 20 cottages on the new subdivision, the west subdivision on the west beach of Delta Beach. I've received complaints ranging from the high taxes that are assessed at this time, plus the shameful condition that the beach has been in the last two years, following the spring runoff that comes from the Por tage Diver sion.

It ju st see ms . th at the management is the big concern and I'm wondering if - well to start with, where the management, I think, of the maint enance on the Por tage Diversion needs to be taken a good look at. I mentioned it to you, Sir, one year ago, on your Estimates and made a suggestion to you that the practice that has been followed for a number of years, where the attempt is to - well, what they're doing or have been doing, is tramping down the reeds in the Diversion with a crawler tractor, flattening them down and then comes the spring runoff. What they do?

With that rush of water, they end up out in Lake Manitoba and the rush of water just makes a circle and ends up back on the beaches in front of our cottages. This last year it was a total mess.

Now, I haven't seen the condition of the beach as of tod ay, but I've been informed that it is even worse from the way it was a year ago, even to the point where we have tod ay, logs, trees that have floated down that Diversion, due to the ice jam, I admit, due to the ice jam, and something had to be done there to allow the water flow, but the fact is, that there is a total mess out there and the cottage owners themselves just cannot deal with it. It has also been mentioned that there's even dead horses that landed up in there. I trust that you, Mr.

Minister, will see that this situation will be cleaned up because the cottage owners themselves, they just are telling me they cannot continue to afford to pay the taxes that they're being assessed today and try to clean up the mess that they have on the beaches. I've been told, Mr. Min ister that this last year there was a $35,000 bill against the clean-up of that Diversion and the beach. I have no guarantee of that figure, anymore than I was informed of that. I trust that there's some truth in it. If that is the case, I suggest that a new look must be made on the way they're handling that situation out there.

It has been suggested that it would be well to start with the swathing of the reeds in the fall of the year, 2618 in time that those leaves will be dry to the point where they can be windr owed out of that channel and burnt. And I, being a farmer, the background that I have - I can easily see that this could easily be the solution to the problem that we are faced with out there. HON. A. MACKLING: Well, Mr. Chairman, I guess our experience hasn't been all that commendable in respect to the clean-out of the channel. A different technique was tried last year. The reeds were cut.

That didn' t work and they tried to burn them, but the mess still was washed out on the beach. The previous technique of merely flattening them down seems to be the more effective way of dealing with it and we're thinking we go back that way again this year. In respect to the clean-up, the honourable member is correct. It cost approximately $35,000 last year. It's going to cost the taxpayers of Manitoba money again this year.

However, the use of that Diversion channel has certainly assisted in water control and ice control on the Assiniboine River, so although it's expense, it's considered, I guess, to be well spent. I might say that although normally ice doesn't go down that channel, it did this year in substantial volume and we're fortunate it did. Because if it hadn't, we had a peculiar ice buildup on the Assiniboine and we would have had perhaps much more serious consequenc es in respect to the City of Portage la Prairie, if the ice hadn't gone down that Diversion channel. It was not a typical ice problem on the Assiniboine River.

We hope that we're not going to be faced with that again. MR. CHAIRMAN: 13.(a) - the Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Min ister, you no doubt, all right - you may have tried the new practice on that Diversion, but I still maintain to you, sir, that you possibly didn' t finish your job. You may have mowed them. I'm not sure about that. You may have mowed them as you say, but I'm sure that they can be side delivered to the effect that they're out of that Diversion and up on top where they'll dry. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Chairman, I think that I'm prepared to discuss with my staff the problem that's there. Ma ybe we can interest someone in taking contr act to harvest those reeds or dispose of them somehow, because it seems to me, we've tried two dif ferent techn iques. Ne ither of them have been particularly successful. The last one was worse than the first. We are open to offers in respect to that problem. MR. CHAIRMAN: 13.(a)- pass; 13.(b)-p ass; 13.(c)­ pass; 13.(d)- pass.

Resolution 128: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $11, 386, 100 for Natural Resou rces for the fiscal year ending the 3is t day of March, 1984- pass. We are going back to the Min ister's Salary, 1.(a) (1) - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, Mr. Chairman, I didn' t have the pleasure of sitting in

Tuesday, 10 May, 1983 on a lot of the Estimates with the Min ister here and finding out just what he is doing in the total department. But I think it's pretty clear from the discussion that I've been part of this evening, that the Min ister is faced with the same kind of problem imposed on him by the urban Cabi net tha t his colleague, the Min ister of Highways and Transportation was faced with, in that an urban Cabinet and an urban backbench has decided that the priorities of spending are certainly not in Capital works and infrastructure development outside of the City of Winnipeg.

Hence his department, this Minis ter's department has suffer ed, as did the Min ister of Highway's Department suffer in spending this year. It's unfortunate for rural Manitobans that this government has such a weak Mini ster who is ineffective around the Cabinet table in garnering dollars to carry on needed projects in terms of water resource development and water protection, flood protection and drainage in rural Manitoba.

That is going to be a hallmark of this government; it's going to be what the people outside of the City of Winnipeg most remember this government for, that they cared not for infrastructure spending in rural Manitoba, in Highways and in Water Resources.

That may be quite salable for a year or two in the City of Winnipeg by an urban Cabinet, an urban-oriented, an urban-in fluenced Cabinet, but even the people of Winnipeg are going to recognize the fallacy and the lack of wisdom and foresight that has been forced upon this Minister and his colleague, the Minister of Highways and Transportation, by the urban Cabinet in taking a substantial reduction in capital expenditures.

I supp ose that is a criticism that we're going to be able to level very easily at this Min ister and this government But the revelation tonight by the Minister of Natural Resources on his capital construction spending was truly damning of this government's policy direction. We had the Minister of Finance in the Budget develop as the centrep iece for his Budget the $200 million Jobs Fund. We did some quick calculations and we found, I believe, it's something like 18 million in new money in the Jobs Fund, the rest of it is carryover or reallocation from elsewhere, and we labelled it the "fraud fund".

That's a name that will bear true because it is a fraud fun, but what the Min ister told us tonight causes us to believe that it is a "double fraud fund ", that not only is there not $200 million worth of new money, as the Mini ster of Finance tried to mislead the people of Manitoba into believing when he introduc ed the Budget Not only is there a fraud perpetrated by this government in terms of the dollars allocated, but we find out tonight that part of the new money is in projects which normally would appear as part of a line department, namely Item 13 in the Department of Natural Resou rces capital spending, some $2.7 million.

So, we've got the first fraud in that the money is in there, and the second fraud that simply jobs that ordinarily would be unde rtaken in the Department of Natural Resources are now going to be un dertaken in the Jobs Fund, which equates to no new jobs being created for those dollars being spent. Hence, the te rminol ogy, the "do u ble fraud fund" by this government. It's an incredible revelation, and the Minis ter tries to skate around the issue of what's being spent in terms of capital expenditur es by his department this year and last year.

You know, we've often thought of the Mini ster of Finance as the main chef in this government, as the head book cooker, but we now know who his assistant chef is, it's the Minister of Natural Resources. He's the assistant book cooker with the kind of convoluted reaso ning and arguments he gave us tonight to justify the vast, the huge, decrease in capital expenditure that he's had to take, because he had no clout around the Cabinet table. So, Mr. Chairman, we have a great deal of difficulty in giving this Min ister and this government very much credit in the Department of Natural Resources. You know, Mr.

Chairman, I can appreciate from your standpoint that you may not understand and recognize the value of the kinds of dollars that normally are spent on drain reco nstruc tion, etc., in the Pr ovi nce of · Manitoba, in thi s depar tment, in the capital expenditures, but I want to tell you they're terribly important to the rural Manitoba people, to the farm communi ty. To have this government go from almost $18 million last year to just over $11 million in any man's numbers is a full 50 percent reduction in their funding. You know, that's unacceptable.

The Min ister can talk all he wants about how they have to repriorize funds and they have to be careful of the budget. That didn't stop a 19 percent increase in overall government spending, but it did give us a 50 percent decrease in capital spending in Natural Resources. You know, th e Mini ster is calling up on rural Manitobans, and the Minister of Finance is calling upon rural Manitobans to pay more than their fair share in taxes.

They have no qualms in pushing to the limit tax collections in rural Manitoba, but they sure draw the line when it comes to replacing those tax collections with needed capital infrastructure spending in Highways, in Natural Resou rces, in drainage reconstruct ion, and water projects. No problem with the tax collections, but a big problem when it comes to that urban Cabinet in getting money allocated to where the tax collections are being made. As I said, Mr.

Chairman, that's a failing of the Minister of Highways, it's a failing of the Min ister of Natural Resour ces, and it's the crow ning fai lur e of this government. This is a government without policy direction. The First Min ister talks about maintenance of the infrastructure program and how that's the objective of this government. Well clearly, he isn't telling the truth when he says that, because in Highways, in here, the spending is down. There is no maintenance of the infrastructure.

There is going to be a deterioration in Natural Resources, in the Water Resource Division, through the drains, through the Parks, all under the admin istration of this department. There's going to be a deterioration in the highway system, just the exact opposite of what the First Minister constantly says is happening.

It is a failing of the government, it's a failing of some of the backbenchers who are from rural Manitoba, purport to represent rural constituencies, for them not voicing strong objection to this urban Cabinet when they propose massive reductions in spending like we've seen in Highways and in Natural Resources. It's a failing that's going to come home to haunt them, Mr. Chairman, and I do not want to provide any good advice to this Min ister or this government, but it's going to cause them to be a very short-lived 2619

Tuesday, 10 May, 1983 government in the Province of Manitoba. I look forward to the opportunity of kicking them out of office and replacing them with our party, our government, that's going to once again put emphasis where emphasis is due in Manitoba so that all Manitobans get a fair share of governm ent spending and a lair sh are of the infrastructure that's needed to keep this province strong, growing and vibrant for the future. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to speak to the Min ister's Salary because I think there is every indication in the world that the Minister in his responsibilities dealing with the Resource Department that he deals with and dealing with the Water Resou rces and the whole broad range of responsi bilities within the Cabinet has demonstrated, as has been pointed out through the process of the Estimates, that he has not stood up to protect: No. 1, the staff that work for him, because after all I think that most people within the Department of Natural Resou rces and most people who work for government want to feel that they're a productive part of what government is doing. - (I nterject ion) - Mr.

Chairman, the Mem ber for Springfield makes a comment that I suggested they were overpaid. I didn't, Mr. Chairman, hold that against the civil servants. I'm condemning the government who were prepared to be weak-kneed or to open an agreement that was not at the request of the employees, but the employer was out-snookered at their whole process of wage negotiation. Don't hold it against the employees. But what I do feel sorry about is that the employees, I'm sure, would like to feel that they're produc tive in society.

Really what they're going to do in the next year's time, with the amount of monies that have been made available, and the projects that they've had identified for them to proceed with, they're going to be set there in a neutral position. That to me is not, Mr. Chairman, playing a produc tive role in society. You know, when you look at the little bits and pieces.

For example, when you look at the western region, the southwestern region of the Province of Manitoba; $13 2,000 spent on Spruce Woods Park; a little bit at Cornwallis Wayside Park, 5.5 million; a wayside park on Highway 34, 7,000.00; Camp Hughes gets $6,000.00; Turtle Mountain gets their washrooms repaired, repair exterior walls to washroom.

I asked lhe other night - I'll go through those too if he wants but I asked the other night that the Min ister consider the expanding . of the government responsibility to look after a public beach on a lake in southwestern Manitoba, Lake Metigoshe, but they haven't got time to do that because that doesn't fit within his priori ty. I don't want to get into the details, I want to talk of the overall approach that this Minister is taking. I have another thing that bothers me somewhat. I was not here when they dealt with Crown lands, Mr.

Chairman, but I had received, as the Minister did, just recently from the municipality of Oakland - for many years they have leased a piece of Crown land from the Province of Manitoba for a waste disposal site, and as a matter of, I'm sure just, ongoing good faith and bookkeeping that the cost of the rental of that particular 2620 property was $1 per year. That is a legal agreement and I'm sure the province doesn't make any money out of it and it's just a matter of accommodating the municipality. But you know what? When Ms.

Eyler - the name is familiar, I'm sure, to most people here; who is the head of the Directors Branch; I'm sure it wasn't her but I'm sure it came from the Minister - that rent for that nuisance ground, this particular year, went from $1 to $20.00. Now as Jack Benny would say, it's not the money, it's the principle of the thing. That's right. It's not the money, it's the principle to take it from $1 to $20.00.

I asked the Min ister , because the Municip ality of Oakland said, we were all kind of agreeing with the 6 and 5 guidelines that were set out by the Federal Government, that they're not going to pay the Province of Manitoba their $20. They're going to maybe pay them a 6 percent increase on the use of that property. That's a fairly direct approach in opposition to what the government have requested.

I asked the Min ister if he's going to take the Oakland Mun icipality to court over the charges of a nu isance ground, or are they going to take the garbage, or what are they going to do, you know? - (I nterjection) - Well, certainly they'd give them all their garbage and I'll tell you that's what the government deserve. I would recommend they give the government all their garbage. That's the kind of incompetent administration that we're seeing taking place.

There is no consistency, no leadership, no direct policy guidelines throughout the total government other than this, that take advantage of those people who are living in those areas - and I again refer to the map - take advantage of those people that are paying taxes, take advantage of those, because you know we're only hear for a short time and we're really going to sock it to them, suck it out of them, so we can do what we want with them. Dribble it away, dribble it away in ways in which we think as a government, or they think as a government is in their best interest.

As my colleague has just indicated, don't maintain the infrastructure. You can refer to highways, agriculture, resources. Yield to the whims of those people who want to build an arena in downtown Winnipeg. I've not got any thing against spending money in the Cit y of Winnipeg. HON. A. MACKllNG: Who said we were doing that? MR. J. DOWNEY: Who said we were doing that? HON. A. MACKLING: If you want to attack Bill Norrie and Lloyd Axworthy, go ahead, don't lay that on us. MR. J.

DOWNEY: I haven't heard here tonight; I haven't heard from any Cabinet Minister; The Min ister of Urban Affairs has not said that they're opposed to a downtown arena. MR. CHAIRMAN: Stay relevant, stay relevant. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have not heard the Min ister of Natural Resou rces say that they aren't going t