VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, MAY 27, 1980 NO. 50

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1823 NM - 1 The House met at 3:0Q P.M. Mr. Speaker in the. Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please~ ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon . Leader o:t" the. Opposi .tion. MR. JAMIESON: Mr. Speaker, I have some questions for the Minister of Finance, relating to the Come By Chance situation for reasons which will be obvious. I wonder if the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins:l could indicate first of all whether his, I think I am stating it correctly, his expressions of optimism with regard to a Petro...Canada takeover are based purely and simply on the report relating to the calibre or the standard of the refinery at the present time, in other words it is not apparently in bad shape, or whether he has had same direct contact with any Petro-canada spokesman or officials to suggest that they might now be very definitely interested in taking up their options? MR. SPEAKER: The. hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I have not had any direct communication with any Petro-canada officials. I have had communication with our side, the co-ordinating committee, who had me.t" with. same individuals from the Petro-Canada organization. But I have also had same discussions with the receiver, Peat Marwick, and when I expressed optimism I was really expressing my own optimism from what I had heard and the information r have had over the months. But I can say that the receiver shares the optimism.

In our discussions, without my leading him on in any way, he indicated to me that he has also considerable optimism from the information that has come his way. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. JAMIESON:· In view of the fact that in the past we have had a number of optimistic observations from a variety of quarters, none of which unfortunately have materialized, could ! ask the Minister of Finance whether there is a contingency plan against the possibility that Petro-Canada may not in fact on, as I believe it is, the thirti.eth. of June, exercise its option?

Is either the government or the receiver,or whichever 4775

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1823 NM- 2 MR. JAMIESON: is the appropriate party, making any sort of tentative plans for where we go from there? Or are we in a sense going to be back to square one with no buyers in sight and the possiblity of having to canvass,perhaps,as was done before, ~~e world market which clearly was not a very productive exercise? In other words, if I can rephrase my question, what does happen in the event that Petro-canada does not exercise its option? MR. ~R (Simms) : The hen. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Well, just a word of explanation first, Mr. Speaker.

I think the Leader of the Opposition mentioned June as the time when Petro-Canada might exercise its option. That is not strictly the case because the intention was that hopefully by June, or shortly after June, 4776 ----- ..,--·-- ·-----:-- -·

t~y 27,1980 Tape No. 1824 AH-1 DR. COLLINS: Petro-canada would decide whether to actually enter into the contract for sale but their option to actually conclude the buying of the refinery, I think, does extend up to later in the year, perhaps up to October or November. So the option is open to them up to that time although the intention and my understanding, my present understanding, is that they very likely will enter into the contract for sale by June or early July and then it would have to go to the Trial Division of the Newfoundland Supreme court and so on and so forth. 'l'he other · _part of the hon.

Leader of the Opposition's question was the contingency plan. I think it is the det~~ination of this.qovernment t~t the refinery will be rehabilitatedif at all possible ,if at all almost:,r might express it,as bein9 hUIIIaJll.y possible~! do not think it would be useful for me to get into the hypothetical situation whereby Petro-Canada was not interested and we had to go e~sewhere 1but I think I can assure the hon.

Leader of the Opposition that this government has always been determined to go that way and we will continue to go that way until the refinery is rehabilitated or it -- . --- ---· .. is dearly shclwn that it is juat ·physically impossible to rehabilitate it~~ we do not expect the latter case. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A sUPplementary. The hon. Leader of the apposition. MR. JAMIESON: I thank the hon.

Mi.Dia~ of l"i.naa~. ·- ~· ..... · ,..., ___ . ·-- It raises SO · .many questions perhaps I will just simply ask one more and hope that we can have an opportunity later for a....mQJ:.e comprehensive expos~ of the situation.

The question I have is! -h';~entions that ) June 30th is not the date, but unless I am mistaken the collllllitment. with reqard to the payment for mothballing does have a termination ' . point • in. i t-cct. ·if, for instance , Petro-Ca.nada is not prepared to make a decision by the end of June,is there implicit in that an extension of the time period and an undertaking that they will continue with some of the mothballing costs beyond that time? And while I am at it and related to that particular question, do I understand from the 4777

May 27,1980 Tape No. 1824 AH.;_2 MR • .JNUESON: Minister of .Finance (Dr. Collins) that,for instance,given the fact now that the facility is said to be in quite good shape ""better, as I understand it,.than many people had thought'- that the Newfoundland Government would not in fact contemplate allowing it to be sold for scrap or to be dismantled? Could the minister answer those two questions? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: At the present time, Mr.

Speaker, Petro-canada is responsible for approximately fifty per cent of the ongoing on site mothballing costs and at the time they do decide to enter into a contract for sale which would be in June, as was mentioned, in June or early July hopefully, then they would be responsible for full mothballing costs. !f they decide not to enter into the contract for sale at that time,their liability for continuing mothballing costs clearly would end at that time, they would withdraw their letter of intent.

In view of the reported physical and technical or mechanical status of. the refinery 1 · --~_.l- -- ----~ -· -·-·-- l 4778 -·---,.._..- · .•. -~.'· : ,·:._. :~~,- •. · .. =· ... ~ ...... -.. ~!~----··:-.-:

May 27, 1.980 Tape 1.825 EC- l DR. J. COLLINS : I think that govertiiiii!Jlt haa always had the intention to rehabilitate, and it would onl.y be sol.d for scrap a& the last possible way out. We woul.d certainly hold fil:'mly to that attitude, particul.arly in view of the information that haa come our way aa to its state.

The selling for scrap is the vary l&at thinq that qavenuaent woul.d have in its llli.nd and woul.d resist it to all. possible extents, to the extent that - are, of course, just in a second mortqaqee position althouqh - are also the host province and I think we would have more infl.uence because of that than just by beinq second mortgagee. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAla:R (Simms) : The hon. the member for L&Poile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Spealter, my question is for the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment.

I understand that a 1118eting has taken place between BRDIEX and the government - the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. L. Bareyl • I do not know if the Minister of the Environment wu invitecl to that meetinq or not. Would the minister tall us agw what t!la stoz:y is, what is the status, the position of the urania develo~t in Northern Labrador DQif that the qovernJIIIIIJlt haa had an opportunity to discuss the enviro~ta.l iapact study with BBINBX7 Mil. SPBl\Dll: The bon. the Minister of Cons~ Affairs and Envizonment. MRS. H. NJi:WHOOJ;: Yes, Mr• Speaker.

We are reviewinq the HPOrt o{ tha board,ud the report of the board will be ma.cle public within 'blo or three days. Mil. s. REARr: Mil. SPDKER: L&Poile. MR. S • NEARY: A SlJl~Pl~tary, Mr. Speaker. A suppl~taz:y, the hen. the Mllber for Could the hon. minister infoz:m the House whether or not the minister was invited to attend the -tinq with BJID1EX that took place ~sterday here in St. Jolm's. . in connection with this uviroDIII8Jltal. study? MR. SPEAKER: ud~t. The hon. the Minister of Cons\Dar Affairs 4779 -- ·-~------- ------------- .. -------- -----______ ..,. ___ _

:.... May 271 1989 Tape 1825 EC- 2 MRS. H. NEWHOOK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I did attend the -etinq and there were other government people there and BRINEX and the AtDaic EneX'9}' Board. But that was just a discussion on the report so there is not any iDfo:aaation I can give you from that. It was just an informal discussion with no decisions at all made. MR.. s . NEAli.Y : MR.. SPEAKER (Si=lal: !MIIber for LaPoil.e. MR.. s. NEARr' A final supplamentary, Mr. Speaker.

A final supplementary 1 the hon. the Would the hon. lllinister then indicate if any iDfoma.tion wu ~cated to B1UNEX that they- could either go ahead under certain conditions or that the enviromnental impact study had turned down the development of that uranium property? Can the hon. minister tall the House whether or not BRINEX will now go ahead providing they meet certain conditions, or has the project been scrapped indefinitely? MR. SPEAXER: and Environment. MRS. H. NEWHOOK: 'lbe hon .. the Minister of Cons\llller Affairs No, Mr. Speaker. .

BRDEX were iDfon&i that cabinet had not made a decision of approw.J. or disapproval and th~ would just have to wait until cabinet had made that deciaion and they will be informad accordingly. There was no decision at a.ll made 4780 -r---"':~~--- ------ .- -----..---~- -. -- . "' Jl·1 '-t.._ 4---·~--- "'' • ._ !P' J·

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 18~6 SD - 1 MRS. H. NEWHOOK and BRINEX was given no indication whatsoever whether it would go ahead or whether it would not. MR. S. NEARY: A final supplementaey, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): I indicated a final suppleJMntary bat seeing that t.'tare is nobody else to ask questions, the hon. member for LaPoi1e. MR. s. NEARY: COuld the hon. minister indicate whether the :report itself states whether or not the project should go ahead? What is it that Cabinet has to take a decision on?

Is it whether the project is ;roing to go ahe{ld, whether it will go ahead with changes or under a certain set of conditions? Why the delay? Why has Cabinet not taken a decision? MR. SPEAKER: and Environment. MRS. H. NEWHOOK: The hon. the Minister of consumer Affairs !o'..r. Speaker, there are several recoi!IN!ndations in the report so Cabinet has to make a decision on which reco~dation it will appzove, so that has not been done yet. MR. F. WHITE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEA!a:R: The hon. IIII!Jiiler for Lewisporte. MR. F. WHITE: Mr.

Speaker, my qusstion is for the Minister of Transportation and CommunicatioftS (Mr.C.Brett) and it z:elates to 1:he prorincial zoads pro~rllllllll8 for this year. The minister has indicated on a number of occasions, the latest time beinq yestezday, that he was going to z:eveal this progrllllllll! and could he tall the House now when and if he is going to do it? MR. SPEAXER: and CO~~aunications. MR. C. BRE'l"l' : The hon. the Minister of Transportation Mr. SpaU.ar, I am waiting for the appropriate tiDP, ~:!' ·:!..understood it was when you call. for tabling of zeports. I have it on my desk. MR. P. WHITE: MR.

SPEAJ:ER: ~ME HON. MEMBERS: MR. F. WHITE: Suppl811111ntary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member for Lewisporte. Hear, hear. Mr. Speaker, I am delighted the minister has- done this ,and I asSUIII& now that he hAB informed all the distnct PC . 4781

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1826 SD - 2 MR. F. WHITE: Associations around the Province before info:cning member of this House - SOME HOK. MEMBERS : Oh, oh. MR. P. WHITE: -and having that kind of contempt for members. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. S • NEARY: Right on. MR. KlRGAN: All PC (inaudible) • -----· MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Are there any further questions? MR. E. HI~: Mr. Speaker • .. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hen. member for Eagle River. ~. . .. MR. E. HISCOCK: My question is directed to the Minister of Transportation and Co111111U11ications (Mr. c. Brett).

With regard to the last provincial election 1 the Premier announced in Southern Labrador that $200,000 would be spent on maintenance of the road, and then we fOund out that it was under the DREE agreement, basically it would be a waste of this money to spend this $200,000.

With. the deplorable conditions of the roads in Southern Labrador-and waiting· for· the D~ aqreement to coma, the minister had a delegation come in and meet with him fz:cm Southern Labrador, the councils, Development Association and the Cl!amber of CoDIIIarce and at that point the minister said that so lllllch money would be COIIIIIitted this year for maintenance- Could the minister info%111 - MR. !r. NEARr: MR. E. HISC:OC!I:: AN HOK. MEMBER: MR. E'. HISC:OC!I:: . ...

The l!llnister sheuld be oolllllitted. ( - this House as to how much money - He·pzobebly will be if he does not get this list around. -is going to be oollllllitted in this budget for maintenance of the road fZCDt L' Anae-au-clair to Aad Bay? MR. SPEAICER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Collllllllnicationa. MR. C. BRE'l"l': I do not know if the hon. member means there is any money in this or not, but this is a Capital Wo:dcs pz:cqramme so it would not be indicated in that. It is very difficult to specify an amount in a maintenance pz:cqramme for a nlllllber of reasons.

First of all, I do not know what equipment would be available up there or if it would be necessary to hire equipment, if it would be necessary to hire 4782 -·-~·---------~...... _,

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1826 SD - 3 MR. C. BRBTT: extra men. My colllllitment to the people was that the maintenance czews would do as much work as they could possibly do, .and if there -re any sections of the road that were worse than others ,like in eases whem it is floodinq and that sort of thinq, that special attention would be paid to it. So I could com~~~it 1 say, $200,000 or $500,000 and maybe only $200,000 would be '+783'

May 27, 1980 Tape no. 1827 EL - 1 MR. C. BRETT: necessary because maybe they would not be able to spend that kind of money, the maintenance crew that is in the area. So, you know, I can live up to my commitment,which is we will pay special attention to the sections of the road that are in the worse condition . MR. E. HISCOCK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementary, the han. the member for Eagle River. MR. E.

HISCOCK: Could the minister inform tlUs Bouse if his department has any plans-,.. of bringing. in new equipment where most of this equipment, particularly graders and tractors, are outdated and are breaking down? Does the minister have intention of "replacing some of this equipment? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Transportation. MR. C • BRE'l"r : We have ordered, Mr. Speaker, I believe it is $3.8 million 010rth of new equipllleiit for the Province this year. NQ, I cannot tell the hon. member exactly where that will go. It will be · scattered al.l over the Province , I suppose.

But I CanJK)t be specific and say that bio pieces will go in Southern Labrador and three p~eces some~era else, I do not know-But I know there has been al.most $4 million ·worth of equipment ordered and it will be placed around the Province. MR. E. HISCOCK: A final. supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the han. the 1lll!lllber for Eagle River. MR. E. HISCOCX: With .. reqard to the depot in L 'Anse a11 Loup ' whic:ti --a very small ami -~~-~c::ally if equi~B8Dt ~ dOWD in the middle of the Winter, or any weather. -it has to be fixed outdoors.

Does the Minister have any plans in enlarging that depot so that JOUI can bring the equipment in and fix the equi~t indoors? 4784 ---- ··--- ----- ·- . ·- ··-·

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1827 EL - 2 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) : The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. C. BRETT: No, Mr. Speaker, there are no plans to 'J.Pgrade that depot ther~ and it is not unusual for our equipnent to be repaired outdoors. It is happening all over the Province. I recognize the fact that it is probably colder in Southern Labrador than it is, say, in Trinity North. But it is not unusual and we do not have any particular 'plans to upgrade that depot. I might say that that i.;; not the only one that needs upgrading 1there are four or five around the Province that are disgraceful.

It is pretty difficult to come up with the several millions of dollars that are needed to do them all. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Grand Bank. MR. L. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question I would like to direct to the Minister of Justice. I have asked the question now on several occasions and ! have been expecting some sort of a positive response to my question concerning the prisoner's box that is presently used in our Supreme Co=t.

The Canadian Bar Association - I think the minister is in receipt of a brief from the canadian Bar Association and it is passing strange but that the first recommendation in connection with the administration of justice in this Province, asks the minister to remove that anomaly in our present process. Another recommendation, 'of course, was that the constabulary be expanded to Labrador. MR'. ·liiBU'B: Hear, hear. MR. L.

THOMS• But the one that I would like to ask him about is - I mean, could he give me now some indication of what is being done about this particular matter and when we can expect a positive result from it? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. G. O'I.'TENHElMER: Mr. Speaker, yes, I am aware that the C<!Jladian Bar Association has presented a brief which I have not seen because I had, well,meetings.. elsewhere this UDrning so I have not personally had an opportunity to read it. ; I think the hon. qentleman is referring to a prisoner or an accused beinq flanked by members of the police. 4785

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1828 ow - l MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: We have had discussions with some members of the judiciary in that regard and the practice now upon arraignment is that the prisoner will not he so flanked - that the accused will not be so flanked upon arraignment. We are planning further meetings in that regard with members of the judiciary to eliminate that necessity in all cases unless - or to eliminate that practice ~say,in all cases where it is not necessary. We are planning to have further discussions with the judiciary on that matter. MR. L. THOMS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementary, the hon. member for Grand Bank. MR. L. THOMS: I cannot conceive really of almost any situation in ~ our : system where this is necessary. A man is innocent until proven guilty and as I hAve poLnted out ,' and as the Canadian Bar· h.aa poi.nted. out it real.ly aue•: a t"arc!' attt of the p~esumption of innocence that we have under our common law system. r am wondering - you are saying then t~at this ia something that must be - doea this have to be neqotiated with the judiciary, not something that y~u as the person responsi- ble for the adainiatration of justic• can do? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. G. OTTENBErMER: Mr. speaker, certainly in the way that we are pursuing it we have had co-operation with the ~ judiciary because since our first meetinq on it, as r say th• practice .witb reapect to arraiqnaent has now been halted~ L' am not saying that if there were no co-operation that it would not be possible in one's capacity~ I thin~ in this distinction as Attorney General-to -so order. I am not sayinq . that. But .r am sayinqlit ia a matte: whi.ch r think cu .. ba. settlecl-- tbro11qtr neqatiatian .. between our department and the judiciary. 4786

Mily 27, 1980 Tape No. 1828 DW - 2 MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: I am not saying that, you know, if those negotiations, discussions were not fruitful that it would no~ be possible to do it otherwise. I am not saying that or really commentin _g._ ~~ that. But I feel reasonably con­ fident that it will be possible to eliminate that practice -·- . --·- through the medium of discussion with the judiciary. MR. L. THOMS: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. M.R . SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Grand Bilnk. MR. L. THOMS: Mr .

Speaker, this is something that should be eliminated and I think everybody agrees that it should be eliminated. My supplementary question to the minister reillly is why is it taking so long? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker,first, and I think the hon. gentleman knows this,that I am in basic agreement with him and,as a matter of fact, I think at an &&rlier occasion when we discussed this used the terms, yes 1it certainly does seem to appear to be inequitable and improper and it gives a visual impression and it gives a psychological impression whers an 4787 ---·---:-- --· .·

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1829 NM- 1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: accused is flanked by peace officers. So we are in agreement on it. Actually I would hope here that we would have a resolution of that matter within the next few months. I realize that is a relative term. Some could say it is too long or that- you know, I cannot argue that- but I would think we would have a resolution of that matter within,let us say, a couple of months. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The bon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEA!cr: Mr. Speaker, my question is for tr.a Minister of Education.

Does the minister ha:ve any indication of whether or not the President of Memorial University has tendered his resignation or is going to submit his resignation in the very near future? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I have no know lege of any intention for pending resignation on the part of the President of the universi.ty ,. MR. NEARY: A suppLementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: If the President of the university was resigning,would he submit his resignation to the minister or to the Premier or the Board of Regents?

Who would he submit his resignation to? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. MS.. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, as far as I know the correct procedure would be that the President would resign to the Board cf Regents. who, as I understand it, originally engaged him and who in fact are now employing" him. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I also have a question for the Minister of Education.

Some time ago in this House we discussed or passed a pr~vate member's resolution, something to the effect that the government be encouraged to review and read the curriculum, the books that are in the curriculum,wi.th a view to coming up with 1110re Newfoundlandia in the 4788

May 27, 1980 'l'ape No. 1829 NM- 2 MR. LUSH: curriC!Uum, more text books related tP the Newfoundiand culture and heritage. I am sure that the lQii;nister is gettillg lots of feedback as the ministers are reading the cu:rri.culmlr. ! am 'IIOilderitllJ whether or not the minister might not be qett;ing scme COIIIpla.illtS with tbe lack, parti.cularly in view Of the efforts towards a renewed fede:rali$111, whetner the minister is not gettinq sc;lll!e feedback with respect to the lac)c of canadian content in our curriC!Uum . frei!ll t.l3e ministers now who are r~ about the curriC!Uum? U.. $PE¥ER (Simms) : The hol).

Minister of Ed~tion. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I cannot say ehat r have recei'V'E!d UIY input on the specific qu!!S~ of Canadian content in the cw:d.culum in our schools. There has l:leen widespread discussiOn in our Province about provinCial content or material :r:elatinq to the. history, heritage and . current lifestylu of th!;! ProvinCe and of course the Province is part of cana4a. I can 1 4789 ' i , .. , ~~ ...--~-----:-. ·· .:.·

May 27, 1980, Tape 1830, Page 1 -- apb MS. VERGE: tell hon. members that significant progress has been made in recent months in incorporating in the curriculum some excellent new learning materials pertaining to the Province. These materials include the unit for Grade X social studies on the fishery of Newfoundland and Labrador which is presently in use in high schools throughout the Province. That was a book published by the Extension Service of Memorial University. And,also, the anthologies of Newfoundland literature for junior high schools are now being completed for use in our schools next year.

And, of course, as we work on the expanded curriculum for the reorganized and expanded senior high school programme, there will be opportunities to include content pertaining to the Province and the country and this would range from NewfoUndland history, economic geography, the Canadian legal system. But in answer to the specific question,I have not had input about Canadian content as distinct or at a greater or more inclusive term than Newfoundland content. MR. LUSH: ~supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Si.mms): A supplementary. The hon. the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Well, Mr.

Speaker, in view of the recent efforts toward . the renewed federalism and unity in Canada, I am sure the minister is certainly aware of the importance that schools1 that young people can contribute toward this unity. So in view of this tremendous importance of Canadian unity, would the minister undertake to have a study done to ensure that there is sufficient Canadian content in 4790

May 27, 1980, Tape 1830, Page 2 -- apb MR. LUSli: our school curriculum? Because I wou1d suggest that there is a tremendous lack of canadian content in the school curriculum provincially, in this Province and, indeed, in many other Provinces throughout Canada. So out of this great Canadian concern,wou1d the minister certainly look into this to ascertain what is the level of. Canadian content in our Newfoundland school curriculum? MR'. SPEAKER(Simms): of Education. MS. VERGE: The hon. the Minister Mr.

Speaker, I am reasonably satisfied that appropriate reviews have taken place and are now in progress. 4791 ~..._...,.......~- --.,..-,- --- ---~--:--·-.·------··-.---.-.·--.-- ----------·---=----~---, --- .. ·~ --- --· - -:- -·---- ·- - --

May 27, 1980 Tape 1831 EC - l MS L. VE~: These include the review of the hiqh school curriculum and the junior hiqh school curriculum as part of that reor9ani.z:a.tion planning process , and also the complete review of the social studies curriculum from kindergarten throuqh to senior hiqh school. In those reviews, I aa satisfied that that whole question of pertinant and relevant content has been considered. But I will certainly undert.ake to bear that in mind as future onqoinq reviews ara proceeded with. MR. '1'. WSH: Mr. Speaker, a final suppl~tary. MR. SPEAD!R (Simms): member for Terra Nova.. MR.

T, LUSR: A final suppleaentary, the hon. tha Mr. SpeaJter, in view again of the- tremendous efforts in the last few weeks and the concentration on renewed federalism and on canadian unity, would the lllinilltar not aqree that cme of the greatest places , one of the 1110st i.lllportant places , one of the 1110st significant places to s~ this whole mov81U1Dt towards canadian unity is in our schools? ADd certainly the minister IIIU8t undertake to look aqain with renewed viqour into establishing whether or not this Province hu sufficient Canadian contant into the sc:hDol curriculum.. MR.

SPEAKER: 'l!la hon. the Minister of Edw:ation. MS L. VEBGE: Ye•, Mr. Speaker, I would aqree that the U.. is appropriate to look at thi• proca•s with ranawed viqoqr, MR. SPDXER: Any further questions? MR. s. NEAR:!: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPDUR: 'l!la bon. the ~ for LaPoile. MR. s. NEAR!': Mr. Speaker, -r quution ill for the Minister of Finance, Sir. Would the bon. qentlal&n infor111 the Ha'Q&e whether or not the qove~nt haft t&ken the -jor step, the biq decillion of all.owinq beer to be placed in cans, allowinq ti.Dned beer in this Province? MR. SPBADR: The hon. the Minister of Pinanoe. DR. J.

COLLINS : I think I shall be forced · to take that under adviBellleDt, Mr. Speaker. I do not believe - have, but I will undertake to check it oat with the Liquor Corporation. ro -r knowledge, - have not, but l: will have to check it out. 4792 ------- · ·------· ·-

May 27, 1980 Tape 1831 EC- 2 MR. s. liEAU' I .A sup_p~-1lt.a%y4 Mr. Speaker. ~· SP'DJCO: (Simms) : A final ~lementary, the hem. 1:be Mmher for I.aPoile. ML s. l!JEUY: While- tbe hon. gentl.ellan is cbec:Jd.nq it out, could he also cb.eck out, if they bave taken the .tep to aUaw beer to he sole! in tiDs in this P:ovince, what will be &me to protect tba ~t. aq&iDst thes.e CIIDS :being flung out the wimlaw of cart ami lett uo1Uid the ~~ u.cl in puJui and so forth1 Will the ~ ~ taking aay ~- Repll to see that tha coaatryside is DOt litterecl up with tbaae tins? - that is, if tbe ~t has taken ~ decision to allow beer to be sold in C&DS. in this Province. ~793 ----- . ----·

May 27,1980 Tape No. 1832 AH-l MR. SPEAKER {Simms): The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I am sure my han. colleague the Minister of Consumer Affairs & Environment (Mrs.Newhook) will be very interested in that aspect of things,but I certainly will undertake to enquire as to what plans are afoot and I will consult with my bon. colleague. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has expired. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: MR.J-;CARTER: The bon. member for St. John's North. Mr.

Speaker, I would like at this time to table the design instructions and blueprint for the new flag. SOME HON. MEMBERS: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: and Communications. MR. BRETT: I will now table the - MR. THOMS: before that. MR.BRETT: Hear, hear! Oh, oh! Order, please! Further reports • The hon. the Minister of Transportation Mr. Speaker, as I promised yesterday And the day before that and the day Does the bon. member want it? Do you realize the time it takes to do this? S~ HON .MEMBERS: q_h, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BRETT: If I could have some quiet over there, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table the Canada Works Programme for the department for this year. It is made up of the DREE programme, the Trans-Canada Hignway programme and the provincial programme. It is all added in there. MR~ MORGAN: SOME HON .MEMBERS: The total package. Hear, hear! 4794

•• < ;~ ·.:~ May 27,1980 Tape No. 1832 AH-2 ORDERS OF THE DAY MR ·. SPEAKER (Simms): Order 4. Concurrence motion on the Resource Committee. The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: ~OME liON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker . oh, oh! order, please!

Before we cOlllllleJlce,and this is under Standing 0~ l20,it has been a«:;reed in order to attempt to test and see if these concurretJCe debates can become more meaningful and effective,to use the same rules Wi.th respect to debate as we use in Committee on the estimates, that is,each l!lelllber will be allowed to speak for ten minutes and then he would have to yield to another member. And :t know the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) will be glad to know that a member may speak aqain and again once somebody else intervenes.

So that is the general.rule and we will observe that, Mr. gpeaker, now and compare it to the procedure last year, and I know then that the Standing Order Committee, having seeD. it and gotten the opinions Qf all members of the Eouse, we will then see whether we will ill9Dlin this change into the standi.nq ~ers. MR. SPEMCER: of Bella · Isle. MR. ROBERTS:. The hon. member for the Strait Mr. Speaker, in accordance with our tradition of open covenants secretJ.y, arrived at and opeDl.y a.DJIOUDCed 1let me- simply say that is the aqreement which the bon. member for st. Johnh East (Mr.

Marshall) and I have arrived ' at on behal.f of our respective - I was going to. say clients- our respective caucuses- 4795

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1833 NM- 1 MR. ROBER!I.'S: It is Standing Order 12l,by the way, Your Honour would have an interesting time holding this debate under Standing Order 120, but it is Standing Order 121 and the arrangemen~ I understand,is arrived at in an effort to try to improve the concurrence debates and I think it is the Committee of the Whole on Estimates Procedures and Rules. With the significant exception that Your Honour will preside in the Chair as opposed to the Chairman at the. table.

Having said that 1 I guess it is ten minutes - and the other wrinkle is that there are no fifteen minute statements, just ten minute statements back and forth across the House and hon. gentlemen may speak more than once a."ld I predict several will probably speak more than once. MR. SPEAKER (Sii!UIIS) : So it is agreed then that the speaking time will be ten minutes per member at any one time. To begin, the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I presume the first department we are doing is Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development.

I believe the departments that come under this Committee are Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development, Lands and Forests, Fishe:r::ies, Mines and Energy, Tourism, and ·Indllstural Development. Is that co=ect, Your Honour? MR. SPEAKER: Well, perhaps for the sake of the Chair, I do not know if we are dealing with a specific department or all of those departments as it applies to the Resource Committee. MR. MARSHALL: We are dealing with the report of the Committee, Mr. Speaker, that relates to the six departments that the hon. member has related to. MR:. SPEAKER So any of those six departments. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: The sense of the motion is surely that the report of the Colllllittee be concu=ed in. MR. SPEAKER: Right. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. lllelli:ler for Lapoile. 4796

I· I ~-~.----·----- May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1833 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, first of all let me say that I am gradually making a bit of progress in getting the estiinates returned to the floor of this House where they should be debated, in this House, and not out in the boardrooms, not, as I said before, down in the dungeons of the old Colonial Building. One o! the reasons we are in this House is to pass estimates. Actually that is the main reason we are in the House, to pass estimates. It is a debating forum. Once you stop debating and passing estimates in this House then you may as well shut the House down.

So in changing the rules of the Hause l~ year,the government gave themselves a free ride as far as the estimates are concerned. Now this year they have realized the error of their ways and they have allowed now to have a three hour debate in the House, not in Committee of the Whole ,I might point out, there is a vast difference in Your Honour sitting in the Chair. But the same rules, the same rules,! understand 1as Committee of the Whole will apply now in these three hour debates. W8ll,that is a bit of an improvement. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please!

Order, please! r think that has already been resolved " and I would remind the hon. member now that we should be dellating the concurrence report of the Resource Conmittee, not the rules of how the debate. should go. The hon. 111ember for LaPoile. MR. NEA!lY: No, Your Honour, but I just wanted to say in passing, in my few preliminary remarks, that it is about time that the government came to its senses and brought the estimates back to the House. Because the same rules now apply and so it i:s very difficult now to be irrelevant because we have ten minutes on six departments. So, Mr.

Speaker, we are making a bit of progress, not quite to my satisfaction yet. I think it was evident this year that the committees 4797

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1834 ow - 1 MR. S. NEARY: broke down, that the press were not covering the committee meetings, there were too many meetings, the Rouse was meeting,there were too many meetings going on, the meetings were not scheduled properly and there was a complete breakdown in the committee system. So it is about time now that we got things b~ck on the rails again. So we are making a bit of progress. And I hope-now, Mr.

Speaker, that after this the government will admit man-fashion that 'they were wrong in moving the Estimates off the floor of this House and that they will bring ~he Esimates back to the House of Assembly where they should be debated. Now one matter that I want to deal with that I think is rather urgent has to do with the Department of Fisheries. I have a lot of questions to ask ministers in connection with these various departments, but the first point I want to deal with involves the approval by the Fisheries Loan Board of loans to fishermen in thi& Province to purchase fibregl&ss longliners.

These fibreglasa l•agliners 1 and I believe.th~re are over twenty- ­ there were twenty-two or twenty-four longliners purchased by fishermen who had their loans approved by the Fisheries Loan Board. ~hey were purchased via John Leckie and Sons who bring these boats, these fibreglass longliners from Nova Scotia. And I aa told, Mr. Speaker,. that the cost of these fibreglass longliners that are made in Nova Scotia -~ ~- '$40,000 and $50,000 more than longliners mad~ in this Province. $40,000 or $50,000 more!

And yet the minister tells us and bas told us on a number of occasions that the boats from now on would have to be purchased .:in Newfoundland. 4798

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1834 DW - 2 MR. S, NEARY: Now, that is bad enough, Mr. Speaker, that is bad enough to know that the Fisheries Loan Board gave out loans to these fishermen, approved loans for these fishermen to buy these lonqliners from John Leckie and Sons who took the fisheraen and the government and the Fisheries Loan Board to the cleaners. But what is far worst than that, Mr. Speaker, is that I am told that these boats are not seaworthy. Now how do I know that? How do I know it?

Well, I have here in front of me a letter that was written to one o·f the purchasers of these boats in Bridgeport in Notre Dame Bay,written by the Ship Safety Branch of the Federal Department of Transport. And this was only a fluke that this was found, Mr. Speaker, and all these boats are of the same~desiqn. I am told they are leaking, the engines have given out in them because they have become corroded because of leaks, they are in on· :he slipways, they are not seaworthy and the Fisheries Loan Board is demanding the payments from the fisher- men. And I am told also, Mr.

Speaker, that the Fisheries Loan Board inspector approved of these boats. Just listen to this~ this oae was caught accidentally and they are all alike, all twenty-odd, twenty-two, twenty-four or twenty-six. It says, 'Dear Mr. so-and-s~ Following an inspection of the subject veasel~by surveyor Jack Oake at Durre14,April 25th., 1980 I have to inform you that no safety eerti­ fic~te can be issued by this service because of the potential!~ dangerous keel cooler a:ranqement. Mr. Oake has recommended the following alterations to the system: 4799

May 27, 1980 Tapa No. 1834 DW - 3 MR. S. NEARY: remove existinq system entirely, replace hull fittinqs with heavier bronze sleeves at least a quarter of an inch thick havinq a much wider shoulder -a~d with an adequate nut-and washer on the inside;;the cooler pipes should be fitted closer to the hull and be supported in at least three positions;; the cooler ends sh.ould be fitted with metal shrouds ,Properly fastened to the hull; a perforated metal casiAq should be fitted between s~ouds to protect cooler lines... And t.BOO ---- --- ---· ·--~ -- ---- -- -- --

May 27, l980, Tape l835, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: then it goes on to make other recommendations. Mr. Speaker, you might say what the Safety Branch of the Department of Transport are saying - what they are saying, Mr. Speaker, is that the boat is unseaworthy and she practically has to be built, rebuilt, from the keel up. And can you imagine the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan} and this government and the Fisheries Loan Board sitting by knowing, Mr.

Speaker, because it has been brought to their attention, knowing that there are twenty-odd skippermen plus their crewmen, seventy or eighty Newfoundlanders risking their lives going out in these boats that are not sea- worthy, because of loans approved for the purchase of these boats from John Leckie. And the only way you can get the loans approved, ~ am told, is if the boats were purchased from John Leckie and Sons. Why do they have to cuddle up to John Leckie and Sons? Why. does the government have to kowtow and cater to John Leckie and Sons? And that is not the only instance, Mr.

Speaker, there are other instances involving enaines I am sure my hon. friend from St. Mary's - The Capes (Mr. Hancock) will have a go at during these ten minute sessions. But it is absolutely scandalous, Mr. Speaker, it is scandalous. I would like to see this whole matter investigated of these fibreglass boats ·. Now there is a fibreglass boat, Mr. Speaker, - and there is only one, I believe, of its kind in this Province- brought in from Nova Scotia that· does not have these deficiencies, these defects and it is working out fairly well. But there are over twenty of these boats, twenty-two, twenty-four or 4801

May 27, 1980, Tape 1835, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: twenty-six fibreglass boats of the design that I just mentioned in this Province that are unseaworthy and yet the Fisheries Loan Board have not seen fit to investigate it. All they are doing is demanding their payments from the fishermen who were conned by a crowd of slieveens · and forced to pay about $40,000 or $50,000 or $60,000 more for that boat to John Leckie than they would have had to pay for a similar boat constructed in this Province, and that is not good enough.

That is not treating our fishermen in a decent,upright manner and I want to hear the minister comment on that because some of these boats are still in on shore being repaired and may go back in the water again and I want to find out what the minister is doing about this very serious and very dangerous situation. MR. SPEAKER(Butt): for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. F.B.ROWE: The hon. the member Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries did not respond to ~~e first question put to him by my colleague from LaPoile (Mr.Neary) • I hope he sees fit to respond after I have a fe\'1 words about the Department of Fisheries.

Sir, I am hoping that the Minister of Fisheries today, very shortly, after I am finished, will level with the people of this Province with respect to its overall policy of expenditures in this Fisheries Department. The minister is very aware of the fact that we have an extremely bad unemployment situation in the Province at the present time and have had for some time 1and the administration over the years, the ~present P.C. administration have done everything to encourage 4802

- -- ·- . - May 27, 1989, Tape 1~35, Page 3 -- apb MR •. F'.:S.ROWE: people to enter the fisheries to try and solve that particular unemployment problem. Unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, we have in this Province an overcapacity for catching in the fisheries in this Province • MR. MARSBALL: Burn your boats. MR. F.B • .ROWE: And the snarky member for St. John's East {.Mr. Marshall} comes in with the bri.lliant suggestion:, burn your boats. Well, I would say to the han. the member for St. John•s East, Mr.

Speaker, that it was not anybody on this side who, over the last four or five or six or seven or eight years, were telling every body to get into the fisheries, young people, middle-aged people and old people, and encouraging new entrants to the fisheries when they should have the research staff both from 'the' federal government and from their own department to indicate to them · that we have an overcapacity for catching fish in this Province. And to make matters worse,. Mr. Speaker, we have an overprocessing capacity- i.n.. ~:calT.ince,. 4803 -~~L: ·-·-· .:.:_;-.~.:~----:-:·.";:'.;t"' _.._.. . . --· ···-- ~-;

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1836 so - 1 MR. F. ROWE: an 09etProcessing capacity which probably explains the reason why it is -- ... -- . ·· - ~ ~- --·--··- - difficult for agencies such as DREE and other agencies to justify the expenditures of money for the buildinq of new plants throughout the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. But in its zeal or in its attempt to solve the unemployment problem in this Province, partially- especially the previous Minister of Fisheries, Mr.

Carter, went ove:d:loard in encouraging people into the fisheries and indicated to the Province that the fisheries was the salvation to .the unemployment problem in the Province. And~ -Mr •. Speaker, to add insult to injury we also have an : endangered number of species in this Province. So here we are on the one side encouraging people into the fisheries and on the other side wo:dcing completely against that; we have an ove:t'capacity for catching, we have an owrprocessing facility, if you want to call it that,and we have endangered stocks. Now, what I would like for the minister to indicate to this hon.

House or whatever we are in now-I guess the House, yes >-what I would like the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. J. Morgan) to indicate to the House, Mr. Speaker, is this •. what is the government's total fiscal policy with respect to the fisheries especially as it pertains to the n- progriUIIIe that was announced over two years ago, or approxilllAtely two years ago, a progra~~~~~e called The Fisheries- Strategy For The '80s, a five year programme, another one of these --~ - - - -- faa)WJ five year p:roqr-s. which would have cost in the order of $500 million.

And when I asked the logical questi.cn, where is the money coming from for this $500 million, five year fisheries programme for the '80s, I wa.e told that $250 million would come from the government, presumabll!f the federal and the provincial gove:mDElts, and the other $250 million would come from private enterprise or the private sector. And we have seen this year in the Estimates a .taken "VOte, I think, of about $1,000 for that particular programme, a token vote, Mr. Speaker, :r.ast year we saw $100,000, preswnably for the superport in Ha:dJour Grace. This-year we saw $1 ,000 .- lim I correct in that? 4604

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 18.36 SD - 2 MR. MORGAN: $100,000. MR. p • 1!0WE : Bow much? MR. HORGAN: $100,000. MR. p, I.<Otio'E: $100 , 000. If Mr~ Speaker will bear with me • .l!ha! I thought I was bad in not zememberinq, the minister should remellber. "Fisheries Dewlopment COEPQ:tation of lfew.falmdlami - 1!Je. faD.c:tions of the CrOWD cozporation aza to co-ordinate developlllent of a primary landinq and distribution centre for offshore lamiinqs to seasonal proe8S$ors and to co-ordinate the lease or chazte£. af foreign wssels for landings to I,IDderutil.ized fish plo~~Qts." That preSUillably is the ~EPQrt.

This year $1,000, anci my understandinq waB that the superport would cost in the order of somathinq in excess of $60 lllillion. Last "real~• Hr. Spealc.er, you miqht be interested in lcni:llfinCJJ that the token -vote laat year was $100 , 000 , md that was sl1rel.y a token vote and when the Estimates: were revised, zero dollars. so pzen-bly 110:t;. one amt was. spent OD· that 1ast year ,yet· we weze told laat yes that site pzeparaticm and acquisition of. land: was going on .for that 4805

May 27, 1980 Tape 1837 EC - 1 MR. F. ROWE: particular primary landinq and distributien port. Now I think, Mr, Speaker, it is time for the hon. the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. J.

Morqan) to level with the people of NewfoundlaDd and ,particularly, level with the fishermen of this Province, and indicate to the. whether they have in fact abandoned the five yea% fisheries proqrUIIUI which was to cast sOIII&tdlare in the order of $500 million - .level with the people 'Wbether they have abandoned the primary lanclinq and distribution port concept for Harbour Grace, and tall them exactly what the qoveli:!IMD.t's fiscal policy is with respect to expenditures in the are& of the fisheries, takinq into consideration the overprocesainq capacity, the overcatchiDq capacity and the n\mbers of endanqered species throuqhout the Province so that people are not hoodwinked into qettinq into the fisheries and findinq out they cannot qat loana from the Fisheries Lo~ Board, !iJ:Idinq out t1wy caDDOt qat liceacaa, findinq J out that thare ••· just teD'~ fishe=-n already in the fishinq industry, pepPle findinq out that there are not .uouqh plants operatinq full-time or part-tilla throuqhout the year. so, Mr~ Speaker, in qood faith,- I do ask the minister to answer these queationa and I hope he does not see fit to say that all. .tbia is pendinq aqreements with Ottawa and that kind of a thinq. ._. .that fisheries proqr-. was aDDDuncad. by the fo:mer Minister of Fisberiea, llr.

Walter Carter, with qreet fan~ at the Holiday Inn - T.V. caeru, colour brochures and wb.at lu.ve you-- thoQ9ht that was qoizlq to be the. answer. Well, it had to be the answer, it had to be the IJOY~t· s poliey. I aa s~ly akinq, What lliiJW is tha qeva~t • s policy? s.ve they abuadonecl that particular Strateqy ~or the ' 80s? Have th.,~fied it or adopt.d i~or b&ve ·they scrapped it altogether? I t:hiJik. the people. of this. Pmvinc:e , throuqh. thi.s Bouse, Mr. Speaker, deserve an ansver to that question. MR. SP!Wa:R (Butt) : The hon-. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. J. !«>liGAN : Mr.

Speaker, in respondinq to a couple of the ccx.enta made by Opposition spakallllll!n, I first of all. would like to say I would like to conqratulata the 111811bars of the Coal.ittae: who dealt with the Estimates, the Resource Policy CCIIIIIIittae. I felt that they 480.6 ~- 4----· -.-.- --~--- -.. : ~ -----

May 27, 1980 Tape 1837 EC- 2 MR. J. MORGAN: did a very ccnmendabla job in handl.inCJ the Estimates of different departments of resources. In fact, tile participation of the Opposition I!IBIIIbars · also wu quite heavy during the Estillates, I know, on Fisheries 1 and that shows the interest of the various lll8lllbers in the resources of our Province , in the dev.lopment of our resources.

I want to comment briefly on same of tha c:o.IBilts made this afternoon, first of all, in connec:tion with the fibreql.&ss boats that were purchued by the fishermen through l.o&na by a loan board in the past, and I think it wu mentioned they were bouqht through John Leckie Limited here in St. John's and the boats are built in Nova Scotia.

I think that has been now somevhat if not totally alleviated, whereby the requlations that I announced last -ek in the Legislature, and are now beinq sent to all fisherman, point out that in the future only fibreqlass boats built '!ithin the Province will be financed through the Loan Board. New, there are a .ullllber of c:capanies building ~ibreqlasa boats. There is one down in Arqentia, there is one in Stephenvile and there is one out here at Octsqon Pond.

And to date, I am not convinced that these ccapanies can accaa.oda.te the fiaheman., although I have made it a requlation that now · if they axe financed throuqh tlte boaltd they IIIUSt buy the boats built hera in our Province, but only if then boats built at Ai:qentia and Stephenville and in St. John's are to the satisfaction of the fish~ can - make that requlation really stick. It is quite unfair in my vi- to tell a fishuman, 'Look, you must buy boats built within our Province,' if at the •- tilDe, these boats are unsatisfactory to the fishenlen.

Now, thert~ is an onqoinq study conmenced lut Fall by the !'ishing Industry Advisory Board as to the cost of boats and enqines here in our Province u compared with the cost of boats and anqines in Nova Scotia. That study is now beinq finalized and reports will be made some t~ in JUne. If that report shows, for exaDIPle, that the s~ boat with the •- · specifications can be built in Nova Scotia. more cheaply than it is 4807

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May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1838 EL - l MR. J. l«)RGAN: these boats in comparison with what they could buy the same boat, the same specification, .the same design for _in Nova scotia or somewhere cheaper, . - ~- well, why should we force these people to buy these boats through you people whether they are wooden or fibreglass "?''so · right now the fishermen cannot be financed by the Loan Board bounties or grants and in loans to 90 ove:t" and buy boats from John Leckie unless these boats are built here in our Province and they are built to the satisfaction of the fishermen.

And that will overcome the groblem that, I recoqnize, I fully recognize existed in the past,as was brought out by ~~e lllember for LaPoile (5. Neary) 1 that these boats were not found to be satisfactory to the fishermen after they purchased these boats. However, of course, ,the onus and responsibility was on the fishermen. 'l'hey had to go out and get the boats;=- ~-:-:oue the boat- - -·- -- MR. s. NEARY: • Where -r. your inspectors ~-to be ? MR. J. MORGAN: - aDd then the loans had to be approved.

And ·when a new boat is financed,it is inspected by the people involved in .the i.ns~c _tion _ di~sion of the Loc1 Board. MR. BEARY: -- - · ' Right on. MR. J. MORGAN: And then at the time it is inspected, a brand new boat, if it is foulld meeting the approval. of the fiaheDlen and the inspector, it is financed. Now, in this case the boats that were buil.t throuqh the company in Nova Scotia, of course, as I mentioned t..'lat is now in the past. They will not be able to He financed. :If a fisheD~aD in the future wants to buy a Nova Scat:hlr ~eql.ass vessel, --- - .. - .. ·- he now- MR.

NEARY: You caamot brusll it off like that. MR. J. MORGAN: - he now has to 90 ~u~ .. th~ banks on his own 1with no financing from the Loan Board and no subsidization. 4809 -- . - ----·-..------.--~--~-.-..--~ ·----·-..,..---- -.--- . ._.... ·--~._ ... .._ .-- .. .._ ,...... . ......

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1838 EL - 2 MR. J. MORGAN: of the interest cost and buy his vessel on his own. We will not finance him. And if there is a problem in connection with the boat's design as built for a fisherman throuqh any company like John Leckie, the dispute, in our view, is strictly between the fisherman and the company that is supplyinq that vessel - MR. NEARY: No, that is not (inaudible) MR. J. MORGAN: ~becaaae the vessel was found to be seaworthy at the time it was built. MR. NEARY: By your inspector. MR. J. MORGAN: At that time it was built If I could have some order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! The hen. minister wishes to be heard in silence. MR. J. MORGAN: When the boat was inspected by the inspectors it was found then to be seaworthy, then to be of meetinq the approval - MR;. NDRr~ That doee not lllllke sence (inaudible). MR. J. MORGAN: - and then when later on down the line when c.s.I., the Caii.adian Steamships :tnspection requlations were applied, if then they were found not to be seaworthy, that is a different matter altoga~er. MR. IIIEAIIr: MR. J. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: people , did · nat. MR. SPEAKER: Well , that is what happened.

Well , Mr • .,Sptaker,. .. that - ~=--- -·· --" Yow: ~tor passed it and the sa .fety O:r::der, please! I think the hen. melnber asked some questions. The hon. the minister is now t:ryinq to qive the 4810 -. - - .... - .. -----s--- ... -- .. ---- ·-- -------

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1838 EL - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : answer. I think he should ce given that right. MR. J. MORGAN: That problem ~as a problem that existed in the past and hopefully will not occur in the future. MR. S. NEARY: Well, what about the fishermen who are stuck with the boats ? MR. J. MORG1'.N: In fact,it will not. recur in the future. Now, Mr .Speaker, before I go any further, I sat in this House this year and I have heard - you see, it goes to show inconsistancy of the Liberal Party in their policy on resource development.

For example, today a member stands in the House and says there is over- production in the harvesting sector. 'There is too much out there in the harvesting sectors, overcapacity.• The same hen. gentlemen are continually saying in the House, 'We need more loans for fishermen, we need more new boats, we need bigger boats, some more new engines.' And now today he stands in the House, the official spokesman for the Liberal Party on fisheries matters,and says there is an overcapacity in the harvesting sector. Well, Mr.

Speaker, if there is an overcapacity in the harvesting sector why sh~d we be issuing any more loans for bigger boats and better boats- .• and mere engines? And we _are doing __ ~at. I This year we are spending $22 mil~ian to help bet:tl!l:' provide fishermen in the harvesting sectors, to improve the harvesting capacity. So now the Liberal Party is saying ' ther~ is 0-=apac:ity ·in the harvesting sector, there' is too 11111ch because you are trying to solve the unemployment problem by .bringing the fishe:rmen in and getting them to go to wcrk, by fishing.' Well, Mr.

Speaker, the Liberal Party poli~ is obviously in conflict with the Liberal Party policy in Ottawa,because in Ottawa they recognize, and I agree with them 1 4811 ----- ··- - - --- -··- ·-··- .. -·-- -- ·---~~-·

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1838 EL - 4 MR. J. MORG.l\N : Mr. LeBlanc's policy, I agree 100 per cent with the policY; the policy is that there is an overcapacity in the harvesting sector on the South Coast, on the Southwest Coast and on the Western part of the Province. However, there is not an overcapacity of the harvesting sector on the Northeast Coast of Labrador and along the East Coast of Newfoundland. And that is what Mr. LeBlanc is saying now. That is his policy and I agree with that. But until we see what is qoinq to happen to the fish stocks in the Gulf of St.

Lawrence in particular and on the Western part of the Province until we see that, we have to be careful with any further expansion of the harvesting sector. But, Mr .Speaker, in the meantime we are going to process loans for fishermen to help them get better equipped ~ the harvestinq sector, the Northeast Coast,and we are going to do that -. this year .. to the tune of $22111il.llon and we are going to c~ 4812

1-lay 27·,1990 Tape No. 1B39 AH-1 MR.MORGAN: on developing the harvesting sector along the Northeast coast. So ! am hoping in the future that there will be a verification with regards to the policy position on fisheries from the official from the Liberal party because now it is confusing. Now, Mr. Speaker, if I only had time,and I have not got time, there are only a few minutes left to talk about the processing sector. If I had leave I could carry on. Can I have leave to carry on on the processing sector? SOME HON. MEMBERS: No, no. AN HON. MEMBER: They do · not want the information. MR.MORGAN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I will say again that the fishermen are totally confused by the policies coming from the Liberal party because they are saying on one hand, "No more boats. No more fishing. It is toomuch now. It is an· overcapacity for harvesting," and at the same time they are demanding more loans.for fishermen. And I am saying, Mr. Speaker, that our policy is to develop the fisheries in a rational,planned way and we are going to proceed in a rational, planned way in the fishery to make sure it is properly developed in the future. SOME HON .MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR,SPEAKER: (Simms) The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR.F.ROWE: Mr. Speaker, what utter nonsense .- MR. FLIGHT: Tripe. 'm.F~ROWE: - and lack of logic on the part of the lllinister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) by dragging . in this red herring. The hon. Minister of Fisheries . never ceases to amaze me, Mr. Speaker, how heescapesanswering a very sensible question by dragging some stupid, red whal.e -across the floor of the House of Assembly. He gets up aJld he says ·.

"I express, as do federal people and as do provincial people in both governments, the concerrr over OOV'ercapacity to the catch, overcapacity to process endangered species," And the minister says there is a terrible inconsistency there because we are asking for mare money for the Fisheries Loan Board. They are not at 4813 --~ - --.,......,~ -. ~ ,..,_ -;~ ::t=. m ' ~.oi:: :~- ';'f

May 27,1980 Tape NO. 1839 AH-2 MR.F.ROWE: all related, Mr. Speaker. For example 1 you can be looking for money for loans for expenditures to improve boats, to modernize boats, to build different types of boats and replace boats, replace engines, but it does not necessarily mean, and in fact it does not mean that every cent from the Fisheries Loan Board goes into the purchase of an additional boat. Anyway 1I am not going to try to answer that kind of stupid logic. Mr.

Speaker, I challenge the minister once again to answer the fundamental and basic question put before him and that is this, Where does the government stand with respect to the $500 million fisheries five year programme enunciated, televisee, put on glossy brochures, sent out to people all over the Province two years ago. What has happened to that plan and what is the status of the primary landing and redistribution port that was designated for Harbour Grace?

We had hon. members opposite last year tell us in this House that the purpose of that $100,000,which was reduced to zero dollars, the $100,000 estimated for the landing and redistribution port for Harbour Grace was to be spent for what? The answer was acquisition of land and site preparations. Coincidentally 1just before the election. That was the purpose of it.

Now if we were told that in the House, that land was being acquired and there was site preparation going on I would like to know there the money came from because it is not listed there in the estimates, the revised estimates for last year, in this year's budget; That ·$100,000 was reduced to zero dollars. And this year's gross expenditure is the great sum of $1000 out of an estimated cost of in axcess of $60,000. Now the minister is winking away over there. I can see what is going on in his mind-if he has a mind. AN HON. MEMBER: What mind? MR.W.ROWE: Probably that is what ! can see.

That . is probably why it is so simple to see, Mr. Speaker. But the problem is he is going to get up now and twist around and say we are either for or against the superport in Harbour Grace. Well, I can tell the minister now that the very moment that that superport 4814 -~ ------ ------ - ~-~--- -~r- -~L~-~--- "·'~,.~~~ L-~0~• ~- ...... --..___. \, ·"*:-*

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1840 NM- l MR. F. ROWE: for Harbour Grace was announced I had some severe reservations abou~it. MR. STIRLING: MR. F. ROWE: MR. STIRLING: MR. F . ROWE; from Placentia (Mr. Patterson) AN HON. MEMBER: MR. F. ROWE: ll.nd still do. And I still do. Bill Patterson. And the hon. member, for different reasons, Bill Patterson. - really socked it to them. But he had a different reason. His reason is if you are going to have~ superport in this Province why not use facilities, or some of the facilities, already in place in Argentia.

Which I would say was a reasonable thing for the han. member for Placentia to argue for. But I am telling hon. members opposite, and my own colleagues, whether they agree with me or not, that a super­ port, one superport for this Province is utter foolishness. It defies logic. And I advocated·, for the want of a better expression, a series of many super­ ports. I do not know what other names you want to place on it but obviously, you know1 ports serving different regions of the Province, the West Coast, Labrador, the South Coast, the Northeast Coast and what have you. You know a number of major ports.

If there is a need for landing and redistribUtion, I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that it would better be done through a number of primary landing distribution ports throughout the Province rather than one single one. So let us not hear the minister get up here now and say that we are against Harbour Grace, or we are for the superport. We are not against Harbour Grace.. We are not for the superport. We are for a series of mini superports,for the want of a better expression, distributed around the Province to serve the areas. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) • MR. F. ROWE: I am shattered. I am shattered.

But I want the minister to get back and inform the House, Mr. Speaker, as to the govexnment' s policy with respect to the $500 million five year fisheries programme for the '80s. Has 4815

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1840 NM- 2 MR. F. ROWE: Walter Carter's bluff been laid to rast? Has the government modified that $500 million election bait? Has the government abandoned that $500 million election bait? Are they going to have another five year programme? Are they going to have another series of Kellogg studies costing in the order of - how much did it cost? $661,000, the studies cost, if I remember correctly. MR. MORGAN: Half a million dollars. MR. F.

ROWE: In excess of $600,000 it cost the government to get Kellogg and Provincial Government agencies to come up with that five year programme, which in itself was going to cost $500 million, and not a squeak - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, ohl MR. F. ROWE: What is going on, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: (Butt) Order, please..! MR. F. ROWE: And not a squeak from the government, not an apology, not an explanation, nothing! MR. THOMS: Arrogancel MR. F. ROWE: Nothing whatsoever from th.e . minister or from the Premier as to this great fisheries $500 million five year programme, not an utterance.

Instead of that the minis.ter gets up and says, "Here is the Opposition now talking about overcapacity of the processing, overcapacity for catching, and they want more money for the Fisheries Loan Board." How illogical can you get, Mr. Speaker? Now I ask the minister once again to try to control himself this time, cool it down a bit, control himself and answer a very simple straightforward question, and that is what is the status of the government's five year fisheries programme?

And, more specifically, what is the status. of the. $61 million or $62 111il.li6n pr:illlary landing and redistribution port that was designated for Harbour Grace? Has land been acquired in Harbour Grace, or has it not? Has site 4816 -r:- -~---------------- .--~·~ ·· .,_, ··-·----,,_ -:.::r.'\:7:· = .. --: "--.'7':" ~

May 27, 198Q, Tape 1841, Page 1 -- apb MR. F.B.ROWE: preparation gone on in Harbour Grace or has it not? How much did it cost? If it did cost anything, under 'what department of government would it fall in the budget? Because it was revised to zero dollars last year for that corporation which was in charge of the alleged primary landing and distribution port. So I hope the minister will see fit to answer the question, Mr. Speaker, and not get on with his foolish politics. MR. SPEAKER{Butt): Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: The hon. the Minister of Mr.

Speaker, because of the short time last time .I was going to comment on the processing end of the fisheries and tie in the central port concept which was looked at as the result of a study carried out a couple of years ago in Harbour Grace. May I say, first of all, that right now in the Province, Mr. Speaker, we have around 181 processing facilities. Out of these facilities,I would say maybe fifty-something are feeder plants, feeder plants working into a larger operation where there is actually processing, filletting, taking place.

And now we see a situation in our Province whereby we · are going to have to be careful in adding to that, we are going to have to be careful in allocating any further licences for processing because right now, out of all the plants we have in the Provi~ce, there is approximately 45 per cent maximum capacity, 45 per cent capacity of all these plants are being utilized and, of course, these are utilized most of all in the short inshore, mid-shore fishing season. And because we have all these plants we have to be careful 4817 -- -- --

~ May 27, 1980, Tape 1841, Page 2 -- apb MR. MORGAN: in allocating further licences and developing further fish processing facilities. And I agree with the hen. gentla~en in the Opposition that there may be an overproduction, if you want, or overcapacity in the processing end. I agree with that and that is the reason why I am somewhat at a loss to understand what one of the companies I am now in dispute with, from Nova Scotia, H.B.

Nickerson and Sons in particular, I am at a loss to understand what their policy really is in our Province because they are having new facilities here left and right, all over the Province, spending millions of dollars, to the tune of $25 million last year, or in the last eighteen or nineteen months,and investing substantial amounts in one or two processing facilities like, for example, in Triton up in Green Bay, approximately $7 million, a planned expansion for Lewisporte,a further $7 million or $8 million, and Dildo $4 million or $5 million, in Charleston, Bonavista Bay,another $4 million or $5 million, Jacksons Arm - and, of course, that is just Nickersons.

National Sea expansion in LaScie, National Sea expansion at Arnold's Cove, the operations in Burgee, all these are operated by one company at the top, Nickersons, who own National Sea they operate two separate companies - and they are increasing substantially their processing capacity in our Province at a time when we do not have raw material for the existing plants. How are we ever going to keep these plants operating longer per year? That is the question that is always in the back of my mind.

And if y9u have·a facility out in Dildo, Trinity Bay, valued at, say, $7 million or $9 million and it is operating for three or four months of the year,it is 4818 - - --- ·---~----- · -·-- --·-- ·--- -------~- .. ~ ,.

~ May 27 1 1980, Tape 1841, Page 3 -- apb MR. MORGAN: difficult to justify how that plant is going to make a pro£it. In fact, I would say it will suffer a loss. And we have to find some way of a continuity of supply to keep these plants operating longer year-round, year-round if possible. But if not year-round, at least seven or eight months of the year. And how · could we have a plant in Lewisporte, for example, operating seven or eight months?

You are not going to have it from the inshore · - mid-shore fishery because by the end of September the inshore - mid-shore fishery is practically over and it starts - when? - say in May month. MR. WHITE: No, January. It starts in . January. MR. MORGAN: Well, the inshore fishery on the East coast does not staz:t in January. ~WHITE":- · It does start in January. ... ... --·-- ) MR. MORGAN: . rt ·does not start in January. MR. WHITE: It does .• MR- MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, the. inshore fishez:y along the No:I:theast coast of the Provi~ce does not start in January. ::tt starts much later than January, it is moz:e lik~ May month · for the regular inshore fishery. AN- HON. MEMBER: (inaudible) yoUc wcmt;. It is the ice fishe17 MR. MORGAN: Now the question of supplying - the ice fishery is not going to supply a plant the size that Ni .ckerson is planning foz: Lewisporte with · a suooly of raw matez:ial. to keep- it going. There is no question in my mind that is impossible. So 461S -------- . ._ •• ,L . ~-~ "'' .,_

May 27, 198Q, Tape l84l, Page 4 -- apb MR. MORGAN: what we arE saying is to get a continuity of supply of fish for these fish plants we have to find some means of a supply 4820 - """r-·- - ... - ·· ----

May 27, 1980 Tape No.l842 so - l MR. J. MORGl'tN: of raw material. And back when Mr. Carter was Minister of Fisheries with the then govemment of the day looked at a central port concept of landing fish and having it distributed to a number of fish plants in a certain radius, if you want to call it that, from Bonavista to Trepassey.And they would have the fish landed from where? The Northern cod. the offshore. Now, the Northern cod, we call it the Northern cod, · the offshore fishery, here we are right now with a maximUIII quota of 45 ,000 metric tons placed on that zesource.

That fish was caught up by the middle of - was closed down· when? If I recall around the end of April or the first week in May this year • It closed dawn, no more fishing in the offshore,because the quota had been reached,and certain parts of that quota have been taken and landed in Nova Scotia. And if the increased harvestinq in Nova Scotia coues over next year and takes more than was t.Jten this year 1 it means it Will be closed down earlier next yaar in the offshore.

So it means a lack of supply of ra¥ material for the existing plants. so e"Ven if we had this big port concept, a big port over in Hazbour Grace right now, if we had it :right now, there would be no point in having it there because there would be no supply of fish from the offshore to land in that port. AN BON , MEMBER: Right on. MR. J. MOR;:IIN: And until we can see what is h~g to the offshore fisheries and the recptneration of the stocks out there, in mY' vi- the central. port concept is not feasible. So we ha"Ve to wait and see what is goi:Qg to happen to the regeneration of the stocks.

Then ."maybe down the road, maybe three or four years time-and according to scientists the stocks are coming back to the point where the boats were catching-, when they closed down· the Northern cod, by the way, for the infozmaticm of the members of the House, when they closed the Northern dod , they were catching ten tons of cod per hour and some of the skippers of the boats said they never saw anything like it befoze, so \ much cod in the offshore. AN HON. MEMBER: Where was that? l I. 4821 .. - -·

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1842 so - 2 MR. J. MOFG.!IN: It was not on the Hamilton Banks, it was SOuth of the Hamilton Bank· area; it was in the 3KL area. And they were •fishing that cod and it looks very promising that the regeneration is occurring,but until we can see the regeneration of the stocks and the migration to the inshore and mid-shore grounds to enable a larger quota offshore, there is no fish out there to land in any central port to be shipped or trucked around to the various plants around the Province. And that is the only answer in getting these plants-and I fail to see what H .P.

Nickerson & Sons are up to because I can not understand why the7 are putting all tlUs money in seasonal plants when they know there is no supply of raw material there. Recently on the st. Barbe coast, for example, they called a meeting down t.'le.re; people were complaining why DREE t~ed down assistance for the Nickerson's plant costing about $9 million.

And someone asked them the question, 'How are you going to keep this plant going longer than three or four months?' And the answer to the question - it was not a senior official, but some official fmm the company said, "we will take some of that controversial Northezn cod and land it in our plant in St. Bazile" • Fine , no argunent whatsoever.

That i• exactly what we are saying to the cOIIp«nies in Nova Scotia~ 'If you have your plants here, any fish you catch out there in the offshore, why take it all. lme way badt to your own plants in Nova Scotia when it could be more feasible for you to land your fish close:r'- in this case in Newfoundland-'in our own plants, your own operations and supply jobs for Newfoundlanders?' That is exactly what we am saying. so. the same goes for 'h'i ton, the large plant in Triton; the· same gees for the large plant proposed for Lewisporte and other places along the Northeast coast.

And the only answer to get these plants going, operating longer, is to have a supply of fish from the offshore after the inshore- mid,.shore fishery is over. - Now, I have got to collllll!nt about these ---·---- qugtas and the licencing of Ushermen before my time is up,becanse 4822 ~- - \ ------;-~·---;::-:--~

May 271 1980 Tape No. 1842 SD - J MR. J. MO~: the hon. qentleman from LaPoile (Mr. s. Neazy) I think, s_time,, '!durinq debates in the House had -ntioned the fact that the fishermen in Nova Scotia were qoinq to cut off the Newfoundlanders from fishinq in Nova Scotian waters if the Minister of Fisheries here did not stop the confrontation with his counterpart in Nova Scotia. Well , let us look at it wry closely now and I want to emphasize what I am. sayinq now is factual infoma.tion. Last year, Mr.

Speaker, Newfoundlanders took from Nova Scotia or mainland waters, desic;nated 4623 I· -. ·=--- ; ~-: ·~;.~,~---~:. ,:)~-~-~~;_.,-... ~~-:=~:f.t...~' ' . . · ~·l·' -: .. : .--.,..~::41 -E.-.~ ... ~·-.

Mav 27, 1980 Tape 1843 EC- l MR. J. MORGAN·~ mainland waters, in areas designated by the federal government, Newfoundlanders took 25,000 metric tons of fish. But on the other side of the coin, Nova Scotians took from Newfoundland waters, designated by the fedara.l gOYe~t aa Newfoundland water~~, they took 35 , 000 metric tons of fish. So nobody is saying now, Mr. Speaker - SOME BOJI. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPUICER (Butt) : Order, please! Order, pleue: MR. J. MORaN 1 Nobody is saying, Mr. Speaker, that there is not a need for inter-action ~tween provinces.

We both agree, Nova Scotia and ourselves, there is always going to be inter-action, Nova Scotia fishing here and N-foundland fishing there, back and forth across the Gulf operation in particular, Eut the Northern Cod means to Newfoundlanders, it was ~cause it was always historically fished, traditioD&l.l.y f~ by nona but Newfoundlanders, Mr. Speaker. , MR., S ~. NEARY: Do. not. ba SCI foolish, SCliiB BOll. MEMBERS 1 Oh • oh! b •. J. IIOBGAN: Mr. Speaker, if the I.ibera.l Party wants to say to us, •we, want th• source of livelihood for the Northeast Coast -- -- . of Newfouadl.and, leava it.

Do not stand up and protect it, foz:11et it: if it wants to do that. But what we are saying, Mr. Speaker, is this, that the Northern Cod means the ._ to N-fo~mdland - and a.lways did - u tha scallcpa mean to Nova 9cotia. And, Mr. Speaker, when you HD4 ~ ..... Newfoundlanders, to fia the scallo~ traditionally, historically fished by NOY& Scotians, seDd Newfoundlanders to Nova Scotian watars to fillh for scell.o~, then, Mr. gpeaker, I think that Nova Scotia 110uld stand up and say- MR. S, NEARY: Here - go again! MR.. J.

MOBGMi: - 'Look., this h&a a.lways been historically fished, traditionally fished by Nova Scotians. Wb.y are you saddenl.y coming no.? Becaua• it ia lucrative-?' SOM& HON. MEMBERS 1 on, oh! MR. J. MORaN: What we are saying, Mr. Speaker, is - 4824

---- -- - ·- May 27, 1980 SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. J. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : expi.nd. MR. S. NEAR! : MR. SPEAD:R: MR. J. MORGAN 1 MR. SP&AEER: Minister of Fisheries. Tape 1843 EC - 2 Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker, please call order. Order, please! "nle hen. lllinister 1 s tu. h.- Mr. Speaker. 'lhe hen. the member for LaPoile. on a point of order, Mr. Speaker. on a point of order, the hen. the MR. J. MOaaH1 Mr. Speaker, rq point of order is this. Durinq my co-ts, and I have l.ilaitad time to make the~~~, the fact that I was interrupted a number of times by people who are now intending to speak, surely, Mr.

Speaker, in future in this kind of debate where there is limited time, it is important for all llllllllbers when they speak to be heard in silence. SOME KOH. MEMBERS: ~ is no point of ordar. MR. SPDXER: I do not think there is really a point of order, but a very good point brouqht forward for all bon. -.bars to take heed of. MR.. s. NEARr: The hen• the member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, I want to qet back to this '"%Y• vuy serious matter that I raised about fibraqlass boats. 'lhe answer qben by the · udniatar wu a bwahoff. 'l'he minister said, 1 PoJ:98t the -put.

We have new requlationa now, - have to forget the put. 1 So these . app~tel.y t:wanty-blo fisher.en who are stuck with these bo&ta, and the !'iaheriea Loan Board demandinq their 1110JU1Y, you have to forCJet about thea, write th- off. These boats, Mr. Speaker, ~ approved by tha inspector from the Fisheries Loan Board. 'lhey were certified u beinq sea'IIOrthy by the Ship Safety branch of the Depart::lllent of 'rransport, when in actual. fact they w.re not seaworthy -. There · had to be major, % sat:.it. majo~ chanc}es made to J:heae boats. Now, 11hy -re th8Y' approved? That is what I am ukinq.

Why wu it so easy to qat an application approved by the Fisheries Loan Board to buy one of these 4825 -- ----- ------ ·----·-- ·------------ -- ------- · ---~-:- -~ -•• -- • ·•o-•

May 27, 1980 Tape 1843 EC - 3 MR. S. NEARY: boats from John Leckie, brought in frca Nova Scotia, that cost, I am told, around $106,000 when they could have been bouqht in this Province for $60,000? Why was that, Mr. Speillter? Why did the dapartment, why did the inspectors recOIIIIIIeild - why did the Fisheries Loan Board recoaaend to the fishermen, 'Look, if you want to qat a boat approved quickly, buy one of those longliners frca John Leckie, a fibreqlasa lonqliner'? Now, why were they told that? Why were they sucked in by the people on the Fisheries Loan Board? Why were they sacked in? .

I want to know 1 and why are they DOW beinq punished and they have to pay the penalty? AN RON. MEMBER: the House? MR.. S. NEAR!': I think you will not say that outside I just said it on television, in case the hon. qentleman wants to watch it tonight. They were sucked in, the fishermen were, and there is SOIIIIlthinq qoing wronq, Mr. Speillter. There is so-thinq that went wronq, and the fishermen are not the ones who should have to pay the price.

This wui discovered throuqh a fluke, a pure accident, when this man down in Bridgeport in Notre Dame Bay had trouble with his fibreqJ.a.s boat that I spoke about, of that ~cular type. She was leakinq. And he went to look for his Safety Inspection certificate and.,lo IIJid behold, he discovered there was no certificate, althouqh the llli.JWitez;.' II - AN SOH. MEMBER: (inaudible). (Inaudible) Department of Trant~port MR. S. NEARY: No, not this particular boat. But the lllinister's inspector approved it. ADd -~ X~ to~.

I - DOt particularly concerned that there was DO certificate on this particular boat, bec:&lllle it was a c;rodeend that there was no certificate, because there are. approximately twenty-two boats like this in the Provace. 4826 ---- -~ ------ · ---- ----- ~------- -----.-- ~~":

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1844 NM- 1 MR. NEARY: The o~~ers were approved and had their certificates . passed by the inspector from the Fisheries Loan Board and passed by the Ministry of Transport, when in actual fact they are exactly the same boat, the same boat as this one, .and th.is one had to undergo- before they could get a certificate, after they discovered she did not have a certificate-had to undergo major repairs, practically rebuilt from the keel up,and yet the other boats are the same, exactly the same.

They are either on the slipways now, they are either in the water on the slipways being repaired or they have been abandoned. MR. HOLLE'l"l': TWenty-two.of them. MR. NEARY: OVer twenty-two of them. And I am asking the minister to explain it, to give us an explanation of it, to investigate it, to find out why the inspector passed these boats as being seaworthy, why the Ship Safety Branch. of the Transport Deparment, the coast guard gave a certificte saying they were seaworthy when in actual fact they are not seaworthy, proven by this letter that was written to this gentleman in Bridgeport. DR.

COLLrNS: Are you going to table that letter? MR. NEARY: No, I am not going to table it. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Well 1 I will take the man's name off of it and then I will table it. MR. MORGAN:. Finli me a copy of it. MR. WHITE : Give it to the minister. MR. NEARY: Yes, I will certainly give it to the minister. Because, Mr. Speaker, there are approxilllately twenty-two of these boats floating around Newfoundland -that may not be seaworthy. There was a five year warranty with these boats incidentally. I want to kncw-, Mr.

Speaker, I want to know why it was so easy in the first place, why the minister's people associated with the board made it so easy for fishermen to get applications approved from John Leckie. Wh..y it was so easy. And they said, "Look boy, if you want to get a boat, you want a longliner, put 4827 h

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1844 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: in your application for one of these fibreglass longliners,through John Leckie,that we bring in from Halifax and your loan will be approved just like that." Why was that? And why were they approved? Why did they get their certificates as being sea- worthy when in actual fact they were not seaworthy as proven by the recommendations that were made in this letter to the man'in Bridgeport before he could get a certificate for his boat. He had to make major changes to his boat.

It is a wonder somebody has not been lost and could be lost yet,unless the minister is prepared to investigate it instead of brushing it off as he did a few minutes ago, sloughing it off by saying, "We now have new regula~ions ·. We are not concerned or interested in the past. " Well, I am interested in the past, Mr. Speaker, and I want to know why Mr. Walter Carter approved - bypassed the Fisheries Loan Boaxd and approved the construction of boats for fishennen in St.

Mary's Bay without them being inspected,·and when the inspectors went out they said, "How come this-boat is - she is .almost built and we did not even know she was being built?" Now;. what kind of an inspection can they do on a bo~t like that? How many cases like that do we have where Mr. Walter Carter picked up his phone and approved of the loan and then it was discovered later on that there was no loan MR~ THOMS: Shame! Shame! MR. NEARY: - and that the inspector had not been notified to go out and inspect the boat, and that happened down in St. Mary's "and The Capes. MR. STAGG: -:! It is not happening now. MR.

NEARY: No, well; maybe it is not happening now, but what do you do? Do you sweep the past under the rug? MR. STAGG: We know it is not happening now. MR. NEARY: Well, I do not know if it is or not. We have never been able to get a satisfactory explanation of what happened to the -Fisheries . Loan Board, that was blamed on the fishermen who were on • - .1 the Boar~ But I am concerned right now about these fibreglass boats. 4828

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1844 GH-3 MR. NEARY: I think the minister owes it to the fishermen who were sucked in, duped, co~ed. There is more to this than meets the eye, Mr. Speaker, more to it than meets the eye. If I was the hon. gentleman I would not shrug it off. I would not brush it off by saying, "We now have new regulations and what happened in the past, that is it, it is unfortunate, there is nothing we can do about it", because the fishermen put themselves in the hands of the ?isheries Loan Board inspector and the inspectors .of the Transport Department.

The fisherman was not the one who had to certify whether the boat was seaworthy or not. He said, "Yes, she looks like a. good boat, like the type I want, and if she meets all the CSU specifications I would like to buy her" - MR. WARREN: Probably the inspector was looking through the window of a car. MR. NEARY: - and the inspectors in twenty-one or twenty-two of these cases said, "She is seaworthy", and through a flu.l<e discovered that one is not seaworthy, exactly the same design, the same specifications. MR• HOLLETT: (Inaudible) cost? MR.

NEARY: I would say between three and four million dollars that the fishermen now have to pay back when they were just the pawns in some little game that was being played on the inside. MR. WARREN: The fishermen are gone bankrupt now. · MR. NEARY: And the. fishermen may go bankrupt over this as my hon. friend says, but it has to be looked into and it cannot just be shrugged off and brushed aside by the minister, and r demand, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. gentleman carry out some kind of an investigation into this, because if he does not somebody else will, I can guarantee. him that. MR.

SPEAKER: (Butt) The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d 'Espoir. MR. ANDREWS : Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I imagine we are still on the Department of Fisheries. I do not know what the rules of the debate are, if we can wander to other departments, but I would like to make a few comments on some of the things that have been said th.l:s afternoon. First of all, there is, I ~ ~ 4829 --~-- --~--;:-, ,:~ •.. ~- -- ............. -.-_;---- ----.--.---: -::-.,·-........ .-~~--~·:; 4~,:-w---

May 27, 1980 MR. STJ:RLING: MR. SPEAKER: (Butt) Bonavista North. Tape No. 1844 GH-4 Point of order. Point of order, the hon. member for MR. STIRLING: I think the member has brouqht up a very qood point. We are debatinq the Estimates of all the resource ministers and it is supposed to be a question and answer. I am qlad to see the Minister o£ Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) has just arrived~ 4630 ·. --- ---:--- ---- --:-=-. ..,....,.... -...~~-- -::::· .---~ ~=-=~:7""" ::=-"'"-

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1845 ow - 1 ~R. L. STIRLING: Can we get the other ministers in as well? Because the questions, you know, there are three colleagues on this side wishing to get up and the member made a very good point that it seemed like it was only either Forest-Resources and Lands or Fisheries we could ask about. The Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Culture (Mr. ~awet.is not here. So aould we get all the ministers in so that we can have a discussion and a question period? MR. SPEAKER. (Butt): There is obviously no point of order. The hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d' Espoir. MR. H. ANDREWS: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. I believe that there are some very serious issues to be faced in the whole realm of the fishery today and were brought up by the Opposition spokesman for Fisheries and by the minister. I think if both of those two gentlemen listen to each other speak that there ~s comaon ground here for agreement. Number one is that the stock resource is not unlimited. SOMEF.HON. MEMBERS: Bear, hear! MR. H. ANDREWS: That is understood, ehat has been well understood by the fishermen of Newfoundland for so many years now, cer.taiAly uaderstood by this government aJI.d1 I think,. by,.' everybody on both sJ.des of the Bouse.

Onfortunataly we ran into soma difficult situations here when the federal minister in one case, Mr. LeBlanc. or our own Min~- o.f. l!'isheries (Mr. Morgan) - MR. "L • 'S"l'I:RI.ING : Mr. McGrath. MR. H. ANDREWS: Mr. LeBlanc at the present moment. 4831 ·-- ------------------- -

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1845 ow - 2 MR. H, ANDREWS: - is put under pressure by groups of fishermen or so-called fishermen or pressure groups from different sections of the Province to in­ crease fish quotas because they think the quotas are too low, With no scientific reasoning or backing or knowledge behind that. That is a very difficult situa­ tion. I must comment and praise the Federal Minister of Fisheries (Mr. LeBlanc) for not giving in to such pressure as that. Because the first step that ig taken . in that regard, I think, will lead to some very serious consequences for the whole fishery.

Herring in total might be insignificant to our fish stocks and our fish exports,but if we ever to start to tamper with cod, red­ fish, 9rey sole and all those other species I think we could be in very serious trouble. There are pr.obably too IDany fish plants in Newfoundland. I would say ~hat we have probably half as aany fish plants, establishawnts than we need. I think we could cut them probably by SO per cent. Now, r say that with this in mind, that a license to operate i fish plant is not just a license to opera•e a small fish plant. it can be a license to operate a larqe fish plant.

My understanding is, ta~king with some people · in the fish trades just a few days aqo - now we will come back to the subject of herring - that there is one fish plant on the Northeast coast of New­ foundland that if the herring catching seasons were chanqadeslightly to permit the flow of herring to that plant 1 that that one fish plant could handle and produce and manufacture all the herring products that we ship out of Newfoundland right now. That is that one estab­ lishment. 4832 ·---- --- ---- -~-- ..

May 27 , 1980 Tape No. 1845 ow - 3 MR. a. ANDREWS: If the~e are too many licenses we have anoth .e_r danqerous situation on our hands because, as I just said, these licensed fish plants, even thouqh they may be small in l980 1 will continue to qrow and fish business- men beillq like any other fishermen 1 will want to enlarqe their business and in -crease their production. I think this is a very serious thinq that we must watch very carefully. Bow you requlate that. I know licensinq of plants and extensions to plant facilities are controlled .by the Province, and I would ask our Ministe -r of Fisheries (Mr.

Morqan) to ' keep a very close eye on this. One t·he reasons ,why this situatioa, I believe, has c.ome about in Newfoundland is because of the ov~ .eatchinCJ of fish in Nova Scotia which encouraqed Nickerson& and National Sea, over the past two years or ei11hteen months; to move into Newfoundland and establish themselves in places where ouJ: o~ fish processors did not think it was economic, for the paat few years, to establish. ADd that haS' set · iD a· c:h&nCJ•- -~:- :;--- reaction 4833

~ .- - - - May 27, 1980, Tape 1846, Page 1 -- apb MR. ANDREWS: where our own local processors are reacting to the movement of these multi-national corporations into Newfoundland and they are trying to grab their own little piece of pie. A large corporation goes into one cove, one harbour, and if you watch the map one of our local processors goes into the next one to try to maintain a piece of the action so that they will not be swallowed up,and that is a logical thing for them to do. It is a very serious thing, Mr. Speaker.

There was some discussion here today about the Northern cod stocks and this once again comes back to the whole business of who is going to control the quotas. I do not think there is any doubt in anybody's mind that the federal authorities,.wLth :their expertise in this,should be the ones to set the total allowable catch. However, in a situation where we had, just in · St. Lawrence, which comes to mind, in the harbour of St.

Lawrence where there was a quota set without any regard for what type of gear that: ..:that quota should be caught with 7 two or three large mobile herring seiners· came in and in two days, I understand, took the entire quota. That quota coul:d have been caught, my understanding of it is, by forty or forty-five fisheD!len just building up in St. Lawrence wi.th fixed gear, wi.th a few gill nets and could have extended that season,possibly, for several weeks. This is where. I think the Province - backbenchers on this side, backbenchers on the other side, the member who represents St.

Lawrence in this case, should have had some way to have an input, to say, 'No, do not bring in those large vessels, 4834 ·--

May 27, 1980, Tape 1846, Page 2 -- apb MR. ANDREWS: particularly in this case, set it aside for the inshore fishermen in their small boats and dories mainly~ as I understand it in the St. Lawrence area, 'and extend that season~ This is what this government refers to as shared jurisdiction. It is not an attempt to set the quota, it is an attempt to have some local input. In this case it would be a lot of local input from the member and I imagine that would be, in this case, the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms) • So, Mr. .

Speaker, these are serious things and I am glad to see that our Newfoundland and Labrador Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) i~ working in close harmony,to date, with the federal Minister of Fisheries. We have in Newfoundland, that could possibly be affected by the Northern cod, the increase in the effort from Nova Scotia, and I am not denying the Nova Scotians the right to catch fish in areas where they traditionally caught fish, we have the danger that 5,000 Newfounland fish plant workers could be out of work, or 1,200 deepsea trawler fishermen. It is a dangerous situation.

I think the key word and the watch word here is to maintain the status quo. MR. STIRL.ING:. Getting ready. MR. ANDREWS: If we do not maintain the status quo the catching capability of other Provinces in Canada to take the Northern cod is much more than our own is. They can take it under - if you just look at the geography of Canada you can sail a ship to the Lake Head, you can sail it to Toronto Island, you could ~eoretically have trawlers coming from Thunder Bay, steami.ng down the St. Lawrence Seaway, out tfurough. the 4835

May 27, 1989, Tape 1846, Page 3 -- apb MR. ANDREWS: gulf, out through the Stra~t of Belle Isle and catch~g our Northern cod and tak~ng it back. I think that is a situation that we must watch very carefully, Mr. Speaker. MR~ SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the member for Torngat Mounta~ns. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I believe the comments that just came from the member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Andrews), it sounds like he is in the runnina for next M~ister of Fisheries. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Before the hon. member proceeds, and I know he would like me to do this, I would like to welcome to the gallery on behalf of all hon. members the District Governor of the Atlantic Provinces Kinsmen Clubs and the National D":i:rec.tar of the Kinsmen Clubs of Canada.- SOME' HDN. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Richard Lavanier from Darthmouth, Nova Scotia and Mr. Ross Rowe from Ontario accompanied by their wives and the Convention Chairman, Mr. Frazer Reid from here in St. John•s. We trust your Atlant~c Provinces Convention will be a success and that they will enjoy it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

STIRLING: With the agreement of my colleague, I am sure that for the rest of the even~g the Speaker will be on the best of behaviour because he is a former Nat~onal President of the Kinsmen Club and I am glad that we now have somebody MR. SPEAKER: As he is always, of course. MR. STIRLING: - watc~g. As he is always, impartial and such a good Speaker. 4836 .. - ,._ . .__. --..,

.Ma.y 27, l98Q, '!'ape 1846, P-age 4 - apb MR. NEARY: And stay out of the aoliday Inn tonight . SQME BON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR . SPEAKER (Simms) :. The hon . the member for Torngat Mountains . MR . WARREN: Yes, . M.r. Speaker. Tl)ere are some conce:t:ns of mine pertaining to the fishery and the budget that was recently passed • . ~ ·l 4837 ~·$. .... ,•;,if •. '· ~--------------~ · - ------- '_- .... _"""?""!._ -~.- .. - ... ,..

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1847 EL - 1 MR. G. WARREN: A few days ago, the Minister of Fisheries (J. MOrgan) distributed a brochure called Fishing Vessels Assistance Plan. Now, Mr. Speaker, I ~d through t.'l.is brochure and I found to my dismay, that effective May lst, there is no bounty on boats under twenty-five feet. MR. G. WARREN: That was last Fall. MR. WARREN: Now, yes this has been effective since last Fall.

I agree with the minister but however, the minister said last Fall when he became Minister of Fisheries that he would consult where possible, when possible and how possible with the fishermen of this Province. AN HON. MEMBER: He U.o said he was goinq to cut back on (inaudible) MR. G. WARREN: However, I-·am afraid - I cannot understand 1what consultation he had with the fishermen in Labrador. Ninety per cea of the fishermen in Labrador - this brochure does not include Labrador. MR. . B. BISa:x:r;, North of Henley Hazbour it -· ) --- ia -twenty-two feet. MR. G. WARREN: Oltay, well , this brochure is incomplete.

Mit. B'. BLSOOCJit.l North of Denley Damour - - ------ - MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, the minister - if I could find out from the minister if this brochure applies to Labrador not. O<>es it apply to Labrador or not? Could the minister lOCi - --· .. -- -·· - - . • IIJllallr _ _ _ _ _ ___ j~le) ~ Qllld~ . ~. --- __ ::.....:.: .t.-s~ - WldiiiiBr- ··· OJtayo. I~ it doea not, Mr. Speaker, I fai_l . ~ ~ -~-tJ.e ~ ~ -- -- -~with '""brnctiD~ that is half ccmplat•.

Last year the Department of Fisheries operated two fi.sh plants in Nain and Makkovik and I think it was samething .... __ .. , - --- -- --·-·-- - - - - in the vicinity of · 300,000 pciUDda ~ ~fenat species- C&UJht. 300,000 - ~· ---- po\Dlda of dif'!erent species were · caufht. ADd it w-- sold to a broker wbo -~sequently 4838 -.:- ---- - -~ --- -.. ------·----~-- .~. ~--

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1847 EL - 2 MR. G. WARREN: took it down to the United States.

Now,I learned from reliable sources that although the government has not been paid their $39,000 because the company has gone bankrupt, I also learned that this fish is still lying in sheds down in the United States and for some unknown reason, and I would like for the minister to clarify if it is true or not that this fish is not of the best quality, that the fish is not of the best quality because I am sure if this is the case, if this is the case, the fishermen hare in my district woulci. love to know if this is the problem because they, in the past, have produced fish in the best of qualities.

So I am just wondering if this is the problem that this fish is not sold. Mr. Speaker, sometime ago, I spoke to the Minister of Pisheries(J. Morgan) pertaining to the Fisheries Loan Board. Now, I think the minister is sympathetic to questions that are posed to him. That in Labrador we have a fishing season of a ~ - - ~ aDlt I will go from lleDley , Harbour North, ' a • maximum of probably three and a half to four months,MIIl &;fish•~ up there would probably make only one quarter of the wages that an average Newfoundland fisherman would make.

However, the same criteria pertaining to the Loan Board applies to a fisherman who has to fish under those extreme circumstances • . ·- ·-· Ha. E. HXSCOC!t: ms-a Sh.-l MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker,,back in December 1978, the Provincial Department of Fisheries appointed a fishery representative in Happy VaU.ay - Goose Bay responsible for the whole Labrador COast. In due course this gentleman resigned to enter political life and from the time that that representative resigned to enter political life, it took four months to recruit another representative - a very recent represent- ative for Labrador.

Now, that representative, also, within the matter of six months resigned his position and went with one of the big fish 4839

May 27 1980 Tape No. 1847 EL - 3 MR. G. WARREN: co!llpanies. And now it has been close to four months since that gentleman resiqned and there is not, as of today, no regional representative for Labrador. Now, this govern- ment is saying they are concerned. They are concerned. Out of fourteen months they have had seven months without any regional fisheries representative and the burden has to lie on a secretary in an office in Goose Bay. . Mr.

Speaker, I believe that if this government and in particular the Departlllent of Fisheries, are geing to address the problems pertaining to the fisheries in Labrador, I suggest that r t:ba ) number one criteria is for the Minister of Fisheries (J. Mprgan) ' and this government to nlake sure that there are adequate staff in Labrador to carry on with the project.. Mr.Speaker, earlier one of the speakers, I think it was the member from LaPoile(S.Neary) 1 said inspectors were not doing; their jobs. Now, I am not going to say that the inspectors were not doing their jobs. "' t.840 ~ ...

"· . - ·-- ·- - --~-,.---------_ .. ..... ~ ~,.-~ ......... ;.,.~1 : ....... "j., ..... ~.:it.

May 27, 1980 Tape 1848 EC - l MR. G. WARREN: I am saying there are not enough inspectors. For example 1 the inspector for Labrador is stationed in Arnold's Cove, Placentia Bay. Now that is pretty good! MR. E. lnsc:oc:rr Shm.! Shaae! MR. G. WARREN: The inspector for Labrador, who has to cover the Coast from Nain down to L' Anse-au-Clair is stationed in Arnold's Cove 1 Placentia Bay. MR. o. BANCOCit: Does he have a helicopter? MR. G. WARREN: No, he got up there once - I believe he was up there twice last year.

For the 'Whole of 1979 he made two trips to Labrador - and for no fault of his own, because he has so large a district to cover and so many communities to go into that he does not have the time to spend in Labrador because there is so much time taken in tza.vellinq from Arnold's Cove to, we will say, Davis Inlet in Labrador. Mr. Speaker, I suqqest to the minister if he is advertisi.JII} for mora inspectors he should get on the ball right away and make sura he hu inspectors in place who can accOIIIIIOdate the fishermen in the industry. Mr. Speakar 1 the minister also said that the Liberal Party is not c:onsiatent.

Well, I will tell the hon. miniater - that if we were in government we would not - liN HOM. MEMBER: llleftr. Nenr. MR. G. WARREN: Oh 1 yes , the day is coming - not very far away, by the way. MR. D. BAIIICOO::: The nut election W.. will. MR. G. WUliEH: The nezt election - the time is . c:oainq, fOlka! Do not. worry, the tillle is c:omincr, and ve:r:y, verv shortly. -- - - - - ·- --11 --- . --- ---·· . -- . -· MR.~ r.. 'l'BCMSs If the Pre.ier pobe iiia no.e in tha dUtrict IinaudihleJ MR. G. WARRENs Mr.

Speaker, if we were in goveruaent - that is a big 'ff • today 1 but it will be a small ' if ' tomorrow. - the one thing wacwould be c:onaiatent about ia that- would know wllo 1112 fishermen are. That is what this government does not know. This gover~t cannot detel:Jii.ne a bona fide fishazman. This government has not· in the put 4841 .. --------- -----.,- .-- -.-----..-----:- - -- -- ·- --- ~ -, .,_-_.,.._ - -- --- -=-~- :.- .. ...._. ~~ ,. .. _.s

MAy 27, 1980 Tape 1848 EC- 2 MR. G. WARREN: seven years determined a bona fide fisherman. And until this government can determine wbo is a fisherman and wbo is not and make sure that those people wbo are out in the boats for the sake of jigging squids in the Fall of the year or a few herring in the Spring of the year, make sure that only the fishermen catch these species - then, :r Ul sure that this government will go a long way in Sit.tisfying the true, real N-foundland fisherman. AN HOH. MDIBER: !lear, hear! .M?.. G. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, :r am concerned about the an.wers ~t I hava qotten frca this qoverDJMnt, eapeclally froa the Pr.Uer of this Province, blaming the inactivity of this gove:rnment pertaining to Labrador on OREE. It is DREE's fault for everything that this govermaent is not doing in Labrador. AN HOH. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. G. WARREN: I find it so astoniahinq, so amazing! 'lfe have two fish plants in Rain and Makkovik that are inadequate at the pz:esent tiae to ac~te the species that are cauqht. ~ Nov,U we go into the shrimp, the scallops, the tlUbot and so on, the fish plants are inadequate to acCOIIIIIOdate them.

N01r·; are - qoinq to wd.t for the federal qove~ to siqn DREE aqr-ts in order to brinq those fish plantli up to stalldard? We had nine 1110nths of. Tory adllinistration in Ottawa waen the D:RBB agre-nts were put in vault ~. So 1 Mr • Speaker, I would SUCJqest to the bon. the Minister of P'iaheriu (Mr. J. Morqan) that he aeriauly look at ~· t.o · fish plante and sea that they are adequate to ac~te tile .peci- that the fishexman will probably e&tch thi.a si-r. One other concern- -l: want to express to the bon. lli.n.i.ster ia that co- September, when you are in Makkovik, Mr.

Minister, you are not in Bonavista, you are 1,200 miles North and with. that the weather bec:cmes cold. Now, - have fish plant workers working in those two fish plants with absolutely no heat in the rooms at all - no heat at all where the women and IIUIIl are working. So can the minister sea any reason llhy there could not be sa. electric h-ters or so-thing lik& that to keep the people who are e~~~plgyac:l in those fish plants , 4842 - -:--- ---.

I 1 • May 27, 1980 Tape 1848 gc- 3 MR. G. WARREN: at least COllfortable until the fiahinq .-u. is o'Ver! It is not a very 1U1Je raqueat, Mr.Minister, but it is a. serious one, ad if yo~~ want t:o make Slire - MR. Sl>BUZR {S~) c Orctar, pl .... ! '1'hll hon. -.bar 1 s tiae baa ezpized. noes be have laave? SON& BDK. KE!IBDSl By leave~ IIR. G;, DRIIIQfa One lllinute, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPDIER.: Leave, aqxeed. Mit. G. WARRE!t: Mr. Speaker, I will fi,DJ.sh oft with this.

X would like for tbe minister to ~ure - today ~t ~ will look i.Dt:Q this possibility of seeing that those two fish pla.nts, at aut tbe workinq section, ..,\lld be hea.teci for the conveni.nce of the worJt..n. SOME liON. MBMBBIS t Hear, hearl 4843 ----- --- --:::::: ~ ,.

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1849 so - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. J. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, it is always a pleasure to comment on the fisheries in Labrador because I know that the concerns put forward by the gentlemen\ who just sat down are very sincere ones, having been involved in the fisheries for a number of years himself on the Labrador coast - the processing end and management of processing facilities, so I would like to answer so- of the concerns or inquiries.

In connection with the subsidies in Labrador, we do recognize that Labrador is not Bonavista as pointed out by the gentleman from the Torngat ~untains (Mr. G. Warren) and there is need for special recognition of that. And that is why just recently, upon representations . from the members in Opposition and my colleague the minister from Labrador (Mr. J. Goudie) we have now changed the subsidization for fishermen's gear whereby up until just about two weelts ago the fishermen were unable to obtain the 30 per cent subsidy for co-.pc~nents of gear, it had to be the one structured piece of fishillg gear.

Well now, that h- chanqed whereby the fishermen North of Cape St.

Charles can now qualify to obtain that subsidy and prior to that I think it was North of Cape Rouge. so,~ -~-~. · And,also,with regard to the subsidization on the sllaller type boats, the eighteen foot boat to twenty-five foot, we did not take that subsidy off the Labrador coast l:ast year when ..-- - ------- ~- ~ ...... it was- o~~ ..,.rywbere •lA• in the Provizlc:e, aDd wb- it~ tima to make a decision 1what we would do with reqard to the n- progruae, we thought that in Labrador the fishermen are now going more and mom into larger boats, bigger boats~ they. , are gettinq mre involved in the th:Lrty-five boat and larger.

AN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. J. MORGAN: We are hoping they will becaase we think that is the kind of boat they want to operate on the coast. And based on that we said, 'Okay, we will take off the subsidy, the subsidy is not there now for the eighteen - twenty-five foot boat. we want to see what is goinq to happen.' And when I mentioned consultation, I will be 4644 __ _....,._. __ ___ . -- ··-:- .:-- ·-----r-~~7'~ -:·,. ~ ... -~ :·-~::;:;, - ...:;;.,

May 2_7, 1980 Tape No. 1849 SD - 2 MR. J. MORGAN: only too pleased to listen to fishennen' s groups this Summer when I travel to ~abrader. I am going to travel the Labrador coast, that is a sincere promise I made to my colleague , from Labrador in Cabinet and to the members from the coast in Labrador. I will travel the coast this SU~~U~er on an extensive tour with the officials with me because we do have some problems down there and I want to see them first-hand and hopefully get some of them resolved but I lllll not going to promise I can resolve all of the problems.

But I want to outline for members from the Labrador coast the recent plan we put in place which h.a not been ;umounced publicly to date.

As a result of meetings with the Fishermen's Onion, the Sal tfish CoJ:pOration, Fishery Products and Nickersons 1 we have now put in place an operational prograuune for the Labrador coast and it is going to go like this~ We are going to lease the the Labrador shrimp company 1 which is a company formed by the Fishermen's Onion, they are holding shrimp licences issued by the federal government, we are going to lease the facilities at Cartwright and at Mary's Harbour to the Labrador shrimp company and Fishery Products has confirmed to uS that they will have eight collecting boats this year on the . coast of Labrador and Nickersons tell us they will take 75,000 pounds per day. l\N RON.

MEMBER: Per day. MR. J. MORGAN: Yes, per day, fish in Black Tickle - Black Tickle seafoods. ·- So combining these two operations with the Saltfish CoJ:pOration,which is applying to have an operation again in the Smokey area and possillly in one other part of the coast, two boats 1 tbari will have a saltfish operation by means of a foreign <~easel operating by means of having fish taken onboard the vessel on the coast of Labrador and possibly further processed in saltfish plants ....m.ze on tbe Island portion of the Province.

Now, I am not in favour of that; but if we go along with it -I. am not in favour because I want to see as much processing as possible on the Labrador Coast, I want to see that. so, looking at the operation now, we have a floating barge owned by the Newfoundland government. ~. union wanted us to lease the barge to them, Fishery Products -ted ua to 1 ..... tbe barge to them, and in talking witli Mr. cashin and with Fishery Products 1 4845

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1849 SD - 3 MR. J. MORGAN: the decision has now been made and passed on as of today to Mr. Cashin and the Labrador shrimp company part of the union,that we will 4846

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1850 GH-1 MR. MORGAN: operate the barge, and we will make sure there is no discrimination to any fisherman. If he wants to sell to the Saltfish Corporation, he can do it and be serviced at the service centre from our barge, get servicing from there. If he wants to sell to Fishery Products, that is up to him as well. Now, there is no discrimination. There will be fair play for all fishermen, and all fisherman will be getting serviced from that service centr .e, the barge in Smokey, operating in Smokey.

So, we felt that was the fairest way we could go in the Labrador Coast this year, but, of course, the long-term aim is that this year they are looking at processing saltfish in Cartwright. The shrimp company will have a manager-operator - in this case it is the Bay Bulls Seafoods, they have made a deal with them to be the managing operators, and then that managing operator will carry out a saltfish operation in Cartwright, which will be, really, an agent of the Saltfish Corporation and tie in with their operation of the vessel out in Smokey.

So, that is the overall plan we have now put in place but, of colll'se, as I mentioned, the objective, at least in the baclc of my · mind, is to get some processing, actual processing onshore. The companies, Fishery Products and Nickersons, they clajm,with eight ships going up collecting from St. Anthony and with the operation of 7S,OOO ·pounds a day at Black Ticlcle, that they· are totally and adamantly opposed to any over-the-side sales to fore-ign boats through the union. Because they haV& · assured Mr.

LeBlanc. in ;; telegram and they have assured us in writing as well that, "Look, we feel", and they are saying as a company, "we feel, look, we can definitely handle t.he markets of the fishermen on the Labrador Coast this Sll!IIIIIBr, and we are opposed to any over-the-side sales". Why should fish leave, like turbot and cod, leave the. waters shipped aboard a foreign vessel going straight to overseas somewhere, like Spain or Portugal in particular, most likely one of these two, when we can handle the fish h.erei' It is difficult for us to have to say to Mr.

LeBlanc, "Yes, we agree, 'go ahead with over-the-side saJ,.es in Labrador through the union or somebody else", but in this. case through the union, when the companies are saying they can handle the fish. 4847 ··-

May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1850 GH-2 MR. MORGAN: So we want to see the fish processed. So we are, right now, opposed to over-the-side sales except directly to the Saltfish Corporation. We are opposed to over-the-side sale of fish shipped to a foreign vessel and leaving the waters unprocessed:' Mr. LeBlanc has indicated in the last meeting I had with him he would be making a decision in the next few days on that, I am expecting a decision this week, but at least he knows our views in that regard. MR. WHITE: What is the Fisherman's Union view . on that? .... MR.

MORGAN: The fishermen' s union is the one that is applying for the over-the-side sale and - MR. NEARY: (Inaudible} development. MR. MORGAN: No, they want an over-the-side sale in Labrador, they have applied for it, but there is no decision made . by the federal minister and the final say is with the federal minister. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) .their part. MR. MORGAN: Well, I am standing with the fact, and I think my colleagues from Labrador and members of the House will aqree,that it is important to have as much as poss~le of all raw material caught by fishermen in Labrador processed in Labrador.

Now, that is a policy that we stand firm on, and we will fight anybody, including the union and anybody else, on that. We want as much as possible. That is the reason why I am not, Mr. Speaker, I am nat convinced that the Saltfish Corporation has done enough on the L~rador Coast for the .past nUIIIber of years, and we told them that. They are moving in a vesseJ... for example, to take fish and salt it in salt bulk aboard the vessel and bring it down to some of the plants out in Port Union somewhere or out· in Bay Roberts or somewhere else to be processed.

Why has not some action been taken over the past few years, you know, to process in Labrador on the shore there? But·, Mr. Speaker, ge~ting on a point - I cannot cover all the points, unfortunately, I have two minutes left but r will say - the part about the field man needs t~ be appointed in Labrador, I will say that the job was advertised. . The. applicants were interviewed as of last week and the recommendation is . i 4848 l L------- ----~--------- · ,.

l May 27, 1980 Tape No. 1850 GH-3 MR. MORGAN: now on my desk. There are two people who Were felt to be qualified and I will be appointing one of these people to that position by the end of next week at the latest. That is to cover the coast. With regard to inspectors, we intend to train that individual, as l!IOst of the field men around the Province, as inspectors, put them in the Fisheries College here, train them as inspectors so they will not have to leave the Labrador Coast to seek an inspector, like from st. John's somewhere. The man: down in Labrador can do the inspection for the fisherman. MR.

WARREN; (Inaudible~ going to be controlling Nain? MR. MORGAN: The Nai.n plant and Makkovik plant, Mr. Speaker, in reply to the question, I cannot give too much. detailed infO%lllation on it. I know we have a team in Labrador right now from the Oeparbuent of Fisheries and they are coming back, I think, it is the llliddle of next week, the officials, and they will give me a report as to what plan we put in place, and I. will be glad to talk with. the hon. member outside the Cb.amtler to give him the details wheil. they return from Labrador. :! will say before I sit down, Mr.

Speaker, we ar .e concerned about Labrador and the. need for further development of the: fisheries. If there are policies that are not to the satisfaction · of the fishermen and if · they Wan.t to COIIII!. to the member in Labrador, tlie different lllelllbers down there, and to. my colleaqua. in Cabinet - that is who . they ough1: w come to, :my colleague .tn Cabinet•.- on to ·:JDer-- r wiU be -glad · to 4849 1' ---:::-:~------;:-~ :.. ~--;- - "!__. "' -• ·- -~ .------ ··. ...- .... "~~-:~:~-~. -~·~- ~ -~:f.-~ .~-:t ~-: .. ·' . .. ~t·

May 21, 1980 Tape No. 1851 MB - 1 MR. J. MORGAN: listen to them and I hope to get further input when I