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June 4,1980 Tape No. 2049 AR-1 The House met at 3:00 P.~. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. 1-!R. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order please! ORAL QUESTIONS :!1R. SPEAKER: MR. JA.'1IESON: The hen. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hen. the Premier arising from a news report out of Calgary. Could the Premier indicate whether or not ~- Pedro Van Meurs was stating government policy and was he,in fact, authorized to make the kinds of statements,which at least are given in quotes here, with regard to the Province's policy appropos t~e offsr~re issue? MR. BARRY: MR. SP~R: :!1R. 3Ai<RY: Mr. Speaker.

The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. 1tr. Speaker, the Premier asked ~e ~o respond to the Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Van Meurs, whatev~r he was quoted, stated in his speech, in the speech that he delivered, stated statistically the information that ~as already been supplied to this Souse and elsewhere and in the " references to the strategy which we will u~dertake in the legal dispute, he quoted my remarks-these were not his original remarks-he quoted my remarks to the ef=ect that in the ~nlikely event there happened to be a negative decision, if it eve~ gees ~o the Supreme Court of Canada, ~hat this Province would be in the position ~o continue, " a guerilla war of a legal nature", and I underline the "of a legal nati.lre ''.

This has ~o do with the application of provincial legislation onshore, the approval as to where facilities are constructed, the ~rban and rural planning approvals that wo~ld be required wichin the ?!:'evince and so on, t:.hat ~~is 'Nou.ld still ?e~ic the ?~evince to s.e~ tha~ its leqitirnate ?rcvincial objeccives we-::e met as far as O:!!.SU~J.:"lg local e~~loyment~ as far as maki~g sure t~at local busines$mec got ~ppor~unitles from t~e offshore and as far as making sure ~hat the social and economic ne ·:;a t i~re impccts were min.i~ized. .

J=e 4,198 0 :•!R. J6:1!ESON : ~!R. S!:'D-'<ZR (SL--nmsl the O!??OSi.don. ~- . .TA!·!I.ESON: '!"as=e No. 2C-l9 AH-2 A suppleme~carf. A supplementary. The hon . L~e Leader of Well, Hr . Spea ~~, by way o£ ?:::-eamble let me say thac : do not have any ~r:::-el ~ith the gove~enc having ics objec~Lves and sta~ing it publicly but since there is absolutely nothi~g L--:. ells ne-r;.,s :=t;port i\.Or ?reswna.bl:_.r - have not seen the text of the ge:tdeman's s-cateme::rr:J but t!ri.s a~tribui:es it ::o him.

Is ::..he bon. :niniste..:- sayL"1g to :ne c.:-c.a t. he i.s being once again ~ .!s ,,.,.e 3eem tO ~inC 5o =:::-equently these ::.ays , misrepresented a.'ld misquo1:.ed -,.,.hen be sa.ys ~~e ?:::-evince is :::-eedy :o:::- a legal guerilla war and it quoces h~ rather ~n saying ~~t on ~ehalf of my ~nistar ! ~~ using the ~r~s o£ the .ni~i sT.er, is c!lat tbe te:tt of it? !n othe::: words , t~1: t.'l.e gentleman ir. ques1:ion is noc himself ~~~aking chese llinds of s=t:e:mer.t:s and t!lat he ·~s merely quoti:1.g scme c::ings char; c;,e ministe~ .sa!.Q Ltt ; ·reCi.se and ~u~~rizej fashlo~ ? .•

June 4, 1980, Tape 2050, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Sirnrns): Mines and Energy . MR. BARRY : The hon. the Minister of Mr. Speaker, we have confirmed by telephone with Mr. Van Meurs that it was clearly set out in his remarks that he was referring to the statements made by me as ~inister. MR. JAMIES ON: A final suppla~entary. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

J.II..MIESON: In the interest then of having these matters pursued in a reasonable and an amicable fashion rather than seeing massive headlines like Guerilla war and so forth, =ould we at some point have an indication- .:3.nd, by the way, perhaps I ought to direct this to the hon. the Premier, because we touched on it before and I do not think he was in disagreement with me, could we at some point ha ve some guidelines as to just exactly what it is that public servants and the like are authorized to sa y and what it is, in fact, that the y are prohibited :rom sa ying.

In other words, what is the position of a public servant when he participates in a forum of this nature and are there going to be some written guideli~es ,as I believe it is :'air to sa y tha t there are in mos t jurisdictions, with regard to what ?Ublic servants and such can say? Y!R. SPEAKER: The han. th e Premier.

PREMIE R PECK?ORD: Right now, as I indicated - first let me say that the headline i~ The Dailv News is not the headling that appeared in The Evening Telegram, for example, so one has t!"leref~re .. to ~uesti-:>~ ';:he interpretiv·e ability of various papers and ve::y ofte:1 t~ey i:1terpret statements :nade by indii/idual.s differentl y . So, obviously, because ~here is a differ~nce i~ i~te~pre~~~~on, i~ is not altoge~her clea~ w~et~e~,

June 4, 1980, Tape 2050, Page 2 -- apb PR&~IER PECKFORD: in fact, what The Daily News reported as a headline is accurately reflecting the statements that Mr. Van Meurs allegedly made in Calgary. So, obviously, there is room for flexibility or whatever there in how we want to look upon the remarks he made. The general rule which Cabinet has put into effect is that public servants are not allowed to make statements on public policy unless they have the prior approval of their minister and that is the rule of thumb. Now, I agree with the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Jamieson) as I did some time back, that additional,more refined regulations or whatever need to be put in place to gi ve effect to that kind of motive, that kind of spirit, that kind of principle. And as I indicated to the Leader of the Opposition, it is my intention so to do. MR. SPEAKER(Simms): The hon. the member for LaPoile . MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, first of all I want to draw to the Pra~ier's attention that the Minister of Health (Mr. House) and the Minister of ConsQ~er Affairs and Environment (Mrs. Newhook) are never in their seats for the Oral Question Period. Are they gun shy?

What is wrong with these two ministers we can never ask tha~ a question, they are never in their seats? So, therefore, I will direct the question to the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry). Could the minister inform the House - I ain sure they must ha-= .te done a study on this and they must have projected figures on the nu~mber of ~ewfoundlanders who ~~ill be involved

a) in the construction of the facilities icr offshore oil production, and

b) the num!:Jer that v.·ill be

June 4, 1980, Tape 2050, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: involved in the production of oil. How many Newfoundlanders will be employed and for what period during the construction stage and how many Newfoundlanders will be ~~played after the construction is over, permanently, in the production of oil?

June '!, 1980 Tape 2051 EC - 1 M..'<.. SPEA.!CER (Simms): The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. L. BARRY: Yes, Mr. Speaker. AN BON. ME!'!5E~: A little bit of an encore. MR. L. BARRY : I lllight say I have had that question put to me once before today in another forum by the hon. meatler. Mr. Speaker, the estimate of people who would be employed in ~~e construction phase for one oil field, for example, the Hibernia field, during constrw:tion whic:.~ might take thr!!e to four years,it could range from 5000 people to 10,000 people .

Once the facilities are in place and the we lls have been drilled for production employment with respect to one field would then fall off. However, if there are other fields discovered and if these are phased in properl y, then we could expect a continuing employment in the construction phase that would go on for more than three to four years depending upon the number of fields that were found. At ~~e production phase it would depend upon the method of production. MR. S • NEAR Y : Give me the number. ~1R. L. BAP.RY: If the hon. member wants an answer to his question, Mr.

Speaker, I will give it. rt would depend '.lpon ~'te met.l1od of production. If it were a pipeline there would be probably less people employed than if it were production by tankers where ~~ere is more employment. And that is why, Mr. Speaker, we have not arrived at pre~is e figures yet, because we do not yet know ~hich production method we will authorize as far as our offshore area is concerned . ~L"'I.. S . :-IE A.'l. Y : M..'<. SPEAKE«: for LaPoile. )o!R. S. NEARY: A supplementary, )lr. Spea'<e r.

A supplementary, ~'te non. the me mb er Is it correct, ~~e figure that the nan~ gentleman gave me this morning? rf I can get ~'te hon. gentleman's a~tention. Is ~~e figure the hon. gentleman gave ~e ~~is morning a correct :igure, t!!a~ during the cons~ruction stag-e be~ween snoo a: 4d 10,000 ~ew:olli~cilanders would be ernployec'and during ~~e ~reductic~, - --. ...

June 4, l<:av Tape 2051 :::c - 2 !'!Jt, 5. NEARY: after the construction is over and the oil well goes into production, that only around 300 Newfoundlanders would be employed? 1\!R. BARRY: _II(R, NEARY: man qave me this 100rning. MR. SPEAI<ER: (Silllllts.) MR. L. BARRY: No. We~l, that is the fiqu:r;!;! the hon. gentle- The bon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. No , Mr. Speaker. The hen. member is hauling a fiqure out of the air. MR. S, NEARY : I wrote it doWn. MR. L. BARRY: Yes, ~ut it was not said by me. You eid ~o~ get it f~m mP.. !om.

S. ~«::a.RY; r..rell, ! got it from one of you.r o f~icials~ :;e '"'as quoting you. You al.ways sl!.y they are quoting you. :>!R. L. SARPY: Oh! Ohl ! see, Mr . Speaker. '!'hi s, h y ~~e ~ay, i ncidep.t~lly, ~r. Speaker, for ~he recorc, arose in ~~e con­ t:ext of a briefing that was given t:O meinbe:s of ·this hen. House over yesterday m::.rni ng, :res~. ereay evening and this :nor.lir.c;; . A.nci i:. t he course oi a question =aised by 1:he hen. membe:- - .anc it is a .!.egiti mac:e quest:ion to as~ and a good question to ask.

But ~~e hen. ~er seems to be very ar.x i ous tc <>et a quidc; answer of ~'le sort c:ha1: he •.rou l d li:<:e :e.o he a r, i . e., ::.h at. t:here will ne ve::y Ettie employment:, so~t~e ~1i :.<; :_~ ':ll.e orcer of 300 j o bs . ~ ~ . XORG.>.!l: l!R . S. !lEA!?'! : ~R. SAAA"!: Somet:.hing ne g a':..!.. •1e • Well , t:.!1a-t is what. Cabot: !'lar~i n s<1id . Tha-::, ~- Speake:-, i s not:. a reli abl e

June 4, 1980 Tape No. 2052 so - 1 MR. L. 3A!~RY: figure, that ~r. Speaker, is a figure that arose in the context of trying to assess the number of people who ~ould be employed on the production platform itself, the number of people who would be involved in maintaining the wellheadz. In every oil field, Mr. Speaker, there is a continuing mainten~ce programme that would have to be undertaken, it would deper.d upon the number of people employed in manufacturing processes onshore that would be involved in the ongoing supply of goods and services to the oil rigs, all of which, ~r.

Speaker, depends upon the type of production that is uitimately approved. And ,therefore, Mr. Speaker, it is impossible to say what the figure will be. I would say it will be much more than the 300 figure that the hon. member is utilizing. MR. S. NEJI.!'.Y: How tnuch more? Give us a figure? MR. L. BARRY: I will say, Mr. Speaker - MR. S. NEJI.RY: Give us a ball park figure? MR. L. 3AFRY: If the hon. member o~posite would like a~ answer I will try and give it, Mr. Speaker. We can say that there will be a considerable dro~-off in direct employment after t~e construction period is finished.

As with any undertaking. the construction phase employs more people. I do net think there is any great magic or any great mystique to that. There are more people employed building an industry than there are in the ultimate operation of the industrJ. However, Mr.

Speaker, if we have control of the mar> .agement of this resource, we can visualize many, mar.y jobs being created not only in the oil industry but in our traditional industries, in our fisheries, cur forestry, our agriculture, our mi~i~g industry bccnuse we will have the money, a flow of revenue, fro"" the oil fields to inject into these traditional industries anc we can c~ate, ~r. S~eaker, tens of thousands of jobs - ~F. J. ~?.G.~ i : Hear, hear. ~. :.. 3A?!=':~: -but only if we control the resourc 8. SC~!E ~0:-:. '-1E:·13 EFS: H-ear, he a::-. ~?.. S. ~~E~ .?Y: Final supplementa~·, M~.

Snea~~= . ~B. . s:-:;; . .x.-::.:::. (Si.:r.;.--s): ?inal supple~ent2=!", t~~ ~on. ~e~De!:' :or La?oil~ . -

June 4, 1980 Tape ~o. 2052 SD - 2 MR. S. !>lEARY: That is a convoluted answer if I ever hea~ one and if hen. members who are tapping their desks - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. S • NEARY : - like trained seals had been at that briefing this morning, which I did not think should have been held in camera, it should have been public, there was nothing at these briefings discussed that could not have been discussed in public, if they had been there they would have seen the answer - 300 jobs was what we were told. MR. J. MORGJIN: I believe you walked out of the briefing t.,is morning~ did you not'? MR. L.

BARRY: Not so. Order, please! MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. S. NEARY: No I did not, I had to go and pick up on~ of my kids at school. l'IR. L. BARRY: 300 jobs, they will laugh you off the street. MR. SPEAK::: F.: supplementary. ~R. S • NEARY : minister is this - Order, please! The hen. member has a My supplementary question for the hon. MR. L. BARRY: They will laugh you off the street - 300 jobs MR. s. NV.RY: The mini seer talks about the method of , production.

Now,would the minister tell the House and tell the people of this Province if the oil companies are £a•rouring a pipeline, if -:.:.ey are favouring some kind of a permanent structure offshore to load the t~~ers offshore and bring the oil down to Portlar.d, Maine and ?lua it into the pipeline that comes into Canada? lA.re

J'Wle 4, 1980 Tape No. 2053 EL - l MR. S • NEARY : the oil companies favoring that system or the pipeline because the hon. gentleman seems to think that the number of jobs will depend on which system is going to be used< What system are the oil companies favoring, tanker or pipeline ? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hen. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. L. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the initial meeting that we had with the oil company re~aled to us, as I have said ,by the way, on another occasion in this hon.

House, revealed to us that the companies appeared to be leaning in favor of the II'Dvement of oil by tanker, that the problem of icebergs breaking pipelines, they felt,might be an in­ surmountable problem, that in any event it might be insu:onountably ex­ pensive to deal with and they felt that the tanker route might be the one to go. Tanker traffic, by the way, Mr. Speaker, to the Come by Chance Refinery - MR • ij'EARY : MR. BAP.RY: Refinery, Mr. Speaker - MR. NEARY : the refinery. MR . L. BARRY: in any development plans - !I.R.. NEARY: for the hen. gentleman. :.O.R. B~ .RRY : I'.R. ~'.RY: oil refine::• !. MR.

SPEAKER (Si~sl : M?.. a;.:?.RY , No 100,000 barrels - - tanker route to the Come by C~ance 100,000 - it is a good thing we built - we have made clear will be a factor It is a good thing we built that refinery - that is approved ·:,y this Province. We "-ould not get any oil only for the Order, please M:r~ Sp'=a :.::s :- -

.June ~. 198 0 Tape No . 2053 EL - 2 MR. NEARY: Sorry, Mr. Speaker. MR. L.. Bli:R,RY: Is the hon. member ready to get the answer? MR • . ME}~: . There will be no oil cominq . ash(!re onl.y fo ·r the oil refinery at Come by Chance. MR. SPEAICER (Simms) : Order, please ! MR. L. BARRY: I:f the hon.member did not war.t the answer, Mr. Speaker, why did he ask the .question2 . MR· NEA,RY: MR.~: MR. NEARY: reeard now, MR. BARRY: MR. YOUNG: l-1..~. N::AP.Y : a1 ric;;hc . Y.P.. 3l>. it.~: SOI·E !:!CN . ~~E~ : l-1..~. s. :.!EA.?-~: Milo • 9 <'..?JI. ~ : I know the mswer. l got it: this 1110rning. Oh !

Well , why is be askinq ? I am only trying to 9et it on the pul;llic Oh. I see. Wasting the time of the Bon~~. Yes, it is a kind of waste of time Mr. Speaker, what was the question again? oh, oh! Tanker versus the pipeline. The companies indi ca~ed that ~be : were lea. "lit!<; to •.•a:d c..'le t:anio:er route. Ne said to them , "Look , ::ou co not hav~ che in !ormar.ion upon ~o~hic!l to :na.l<e your decision at ~'lis d:ne. You are not going ~o ge t any approvals from us until you car. satis!: us tha~ yo u have U;o :::o ~.:ghly examinee boti'. alte::natives.

We '!.re ;:oirg ~o c.e :::e::a!...'li~ g our o .. -n co nsul cants as ..-e a:::e ,to examine ~oth al tern a::iv es a. :~d th is !:'al l, hope!:.tlly, t~e companies ·.·i:l :!le :'i!ing a .:evelopme: n: ;:la:1 a:1e they -..· ~ .!.: =e ~eq~~s~i~~ ~?~:O~ ~ l f~o~ ~¢ve =~~ ~ ~~ -

Jun" 4 , l!?S'J !-lR • lo!ORGA.'i : ~- ~. 3i\.RR:!: Tape No. 2053 E:L - 3 We can balf i't. - to either build a pipeline or to install facilities that will require tankers. At that time we will have to give our approval. our approval will be given based UPOn the humber of jobs, the illlOunt of proc:essinq that will be done within this Province and the least possible envireiUne.ntal impact and, Mr. Spea)<:er, the•e an the main factors that have to be considered. MB..SPEAXER (Silltms) : The hon. IIIUiber for l'clrt au Port. MR. :I. !!ODOBR: A question for the Minister of Education.

About a IIICinth ag-e I asked the minister about a report on the property committee on Grade Xll, the committee which is looking into what school construction would cost to illtplement Grade 12. AS. that time I had mentioned that it was S40,000,000. The minister told me my' . .information was incorrect but that she wou.l.d bring

.:-u:te :1 , .!.980 Tape )<o . 2054 N:·! - l :·!R. ;;ooo :::R: che reporc of t~at ~omm i cte~ ~:teo c~e ~ouse , ~ow c ~e Souse in i~s dyi~g scages, :ou lc che ~~:lise:~ eiche~ cell us now ~ hen she will i~ fo rm c~e people how m uc~ G ~ ade X!I ~ill cos: for consc:uc :i o:l, o~ ~hen she will ~ake a re ~ort~ MR . S?:::~&!:R (Simms) rhe bon . Mi:liste r of !:d~ca:ion. ~S . V!:"RGE: ~r .

Speaker, cbe i:lc e ri~ reporc of the sub -commic:ee to t~e steering commictee ?la:lni:tg ~he re­ org an ization of se nio r high school ~as mad e availa bl e :o :he hon . membe~ whe n it was first ~eleased ac che e:t d of 1979 . !n :~a~ ~epo~~ wer2 escimatas of ~h e cos~s , both t~e cosc o: :a cili:ies, extra class rooms and buildings, anc also opera :ing =oscs wi:h a fairl~ de:ail~c list ite~i zing sa laries, cost ~ = ~ r.s:~uc~io~a! ~a:e~ials, ~:o~ra~e Cevelo?me~t, ~~s ~~ a~S?Or~at:o~, ec:.

As :or c~e es~~~ac eC cos~ of :a~~l~c!es a~d builC~~;s, =he es:i~ace s!vg ~ ~n ~~a~ :e ?o=~ - was abou: 514 m~ llion woith o! const ~uc~ioo , and =he ~e ?o~= ?~ ocee~ed ~o esc~~aca how much ~ou:C be =e~u~ ~e ~ co be spen~ over c~~ ~~x~ few yea rs ~nc~l ~hose facilicies a~e in place.

Si~ca :he ci me o: ::hat. !" ~po':'t, o·ter the ,? 3 St si x mon t:ts, c~e sub-:: om-:nit~ee has :onci:tued gathe~lng ~ore je~ailec infor~ati~n from sc~ool oca rcs ar?uno che Prov~nce ar.d c~a~ ~s now be :ng oh;ec~i'lely ana ly ze d oy the of!icial~ o~ :he Educa~ion Dap a~: menc •=d ~~ is ex?ec~ad tnac a ~o:e preci3e ~s~i~ate will be 37a~!3~l~ ;c:~e SC ·~~ . I ·,;o~.::c )U SC l : k~ co :~~ake ~=e :'~r-.a: ::-·~-··~ ~ ~a= ~o ~~c:~lo~a: ::~ssr?o~ s~a=: wi:: ~~ ~;~C~~ :~r :~~ ~x::3 ~~a~ o~ s:~oc! ~~c:i ;raee XI : ~3 ~~~s= ~~ c~~t, w~!: ~ ~~: : ~a =~e s=~~ol y~a= :~a;-34, ~o=~ ;~a~ ~ ~~~~ 7~ars ~~~~ -

.:ur.e .; , BSO ~~. S?EAKE~ (Si~m s) ?ort au ?ort .

Tape No. 2054 NM - 2 A supplementary, the non. member for ~lr o Speaker, che :ni ·nis::er dicl r.ot answer :!'!!'t o <!OOOE:R: :ny quescion. ;~~- !:.USn: ~he ~ues~ion ~as - - did not thi~k so. ~H o !iOOO~R: - you kno~,t~e ?ro?er~y :o~~ltcee met, or gave t~e minister a report about six weeks ago and ! asked a=o~t two weeks after that what the final figure o! the ?roperty Committee was . ~he minister has never answered ~~at quescion o ~ell ! will ask the :niniscer another quest~or.. 7he cwo impor tant c~m~~~teas are the ?=ope~ty Commic:ee anC che Cu~rle~lcm Commi~~e2, now ~e k~ow ~hac Grade x:: was delayeC :or one y~a:J ~~at is che =~~~icu!um Commi~tee Coin~ ac :he p r~se~c ~~me?

Could c~: mlr.ister tell me that? :-IR. S?E.:O.lC!:R: ~S . 'I~RGE: The hon . Mi~is&e~ o= Educ~tion. ?es, Mr. Speak~~, c~e C~r~~~ulum 3a~ - Commi~:ee has ~een a~ work ~ow for mora than a 'lear. :n S~?~em~e= oi 1979 ~hat s~~ - coo~~~cee ?Cbl~sheC a :~scuss1~n pa?e~ o~ 1 ~e-or;a~~=~~ ~~rr~cul~m !~~ G ~a~ss K, x:, ~n~ l:! . Thac pr~posal has bee~ ~~tely circu:ated among ec~c~=or; ~~ :~e ?~ovlr.ce and has resul~ec in many comme~ts and sugqescions o .. •·

... June 4,1980 Tape No. 2055 AH-1 MS VERGE: All of ~~e additional input has been evaluated and appropriate changes are now being considered. Among the targets set by the Curriculum Sub-Committee for the balance of the current school year,that would be the end of this month, includes a list which was published in an update newsletter which I understand the han. member has. The tasks include the necessary planning for the re-organized Grade x which is scheduled co start,of course,in September 1981. The other tasks,as I mentioned,are listed in that doc~~ent which I understand the hen. member has. MR.HODDER: ~1R.

SPEAKER (Simms): member for Port au Port. 1-L'<. HODDER: A supplementary. A final supplementary. The hon. the I think , Mr. Speaker, I could have asked this question a year ago and got the exact same answer on both of my preliminary questions. Sut going back because , Mr. Speaker, it is my feeling,and as a

preamble to my question,it is my feeling that the delay of Grade XII "or one year has not benefited in that these committees are basically not working as quickly as they had in the year previously.

But I would like to ask the minister, since the government made available ~10,800,000 this year to the Denominational Education Committees and they have now told the Denominational Education Committees chat they cannot spend those funds for the next several months, could the minister explain this sort of tightness of money and how she will be bringing the Grade ~into the Province in 1984, r.vhen we cannot find enollgh money to finance che construction of schools at ~he present time? ~1R. LU30:: Broken promises. like the ~0,500 jobs. ~R. SPE.1U'3:':R: The han. the ~inist.er of Ed'..lcation. ~'!S . VERGE : ~.

Speaker, over the past seve!1 or e~sht ~onths the goverlli~er.t has made a corr~itment to the Denominational Education Cornmi -ctees to make possible $24 million ·· o~th of !'le•...,- sc!:.col cor..st.~:Icti~~. !'h.:.s ~,;as done ii'1_ -c·N·o installments, the :i::-st :J: ·,.·hi~!l. ·r~c.s shortly !:·~f'3r'2 Chris1:2as ·N~he:1 ~12 ~illion r ... ~r~h was au.tr..orized :Jf v..rh.!.ch of c;aurse ter-. per ~e!i.t r,,ii::.l be ii:-!ance:i by the school boards ar~d tf..e o~har ~12 :nillior. =

June 4, !98 0 T~?e No. 2055 .>_':-2 ~!.S VE:..~E. ~ ~~s ar~ounced in the Budget ~eech at. ~he ·e:1d of Y~ch. 1his 'Ifill go s long ,,.ray in replacing inade.quate and obsole1:e ~uild ings w:Uch are now housL":g stud .en-::s. The additional cost of EacLli1:ies ~equired for the extra year of high school will be ~ce available over che nex~ fe w years as we approach 1983 - 1984 , when, ior t...;.,e :irst tirne , ~he eXL:ra year of high sc. ~ool will be t:aught . c1..."!..? . !!.C\<E : 1<\R. S?EA.'<E-R (Simms ) : 1-JR. ::.::tQNE : ~tr. Spea.~e!: . The hon. member fo r Tri~ty-3ay De Verde . Mr .

Spea.~er, ! ·.rould like to :!dciress a q,uestion to tile mi:tis4er :esponsi.ble for ::-ec=e.ation . Will t_he minist-~ ~ :+tr . S9ea_ker, to :na.ke it as br ief"ly as ca..Ttf ll.."lderUt.kc ::o convey -:o t!U.s Canacia':s equ.ivale..'1.1:. of Cilt.e~~ Mr . Ed Sir;_z,I believ ·e is how it. is ?ronouncee~ ~,o;rr.c i _s t.he. umpi::-e - i.i1 -c?tief of Softball Canada, '.10

J1me 4, 1980 Tape 2056 EC - 1 MR. £'. RCWE: would. the minister undertake to convey to ~~at gentleman ~~is Legislature's shock and displeasure over barring Mr. Len King from officiating at this national softball championship because he is wearing a neat beard, which is surely, Mr. Speaker, a violation of human rights and blatant discrimination? I was wondering if the minister would undertake ~o do that? M..".. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Culture. XR. R. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, thank you very :nuch for the question. I have been in contact with ~r.

Harvey of the provincial association MR. S. NE..'I.RY: Already? MR. R. DAWE: - to discuss ~~e matter - yes. A letter is now being typed up to my federal counte~art, Mr. Regan, who is responsible for that particular area of development on the national scene, expressing our concerns and fully supporting our provincial association's stand on the matter. M.R. F. ROI-iE: A supplementarf, M.r. Speaker. ~R. SPEA;<E?.: .1\. supplementart, 'C.he hen. the :neno.ber for Trinity - Bay de. 'lerC.e. ~ll'l.. F • ROWE : Well, Mr. Speaker, r appreciate ~~e ans~er from L~e minister. Did the ~nister indicate in his le~~=r to ~.

Reg~~- or ask or reques~ ~~a~ ~r. Regan take all necessar; st~Fs, if necessary 1 ~o reverse the decision of the umpire-in-~~ief of Sof~all ~~ada, ord~r hjm ~~ ~~verse his pcsit~on on ~~is partlcular st~~C? MF.. NE;>.RY: Can he wear a taup-e:? ~!L SFLAKER: The hon. the ~inister of 'rou:dsm ?ecreation ar.d culture. ~..?-.. R. CJ..~,~ ~ The ccn~ent of the letter Coes inc:~c2 a suggestion that a comple~e review o! the decision be maae a~d ~~~~ ~vlr. King be ::-einstat:!d. in=c ~i.s pasi"':.ian c:: u..-;;~iring ao: O:..::·.e nac.i.c::.2<.:..3. :-~?-.. F • ?.(..~.~: Hr. Speake:::-, a su9ple:;oe:r:.c..r·£ ~ :·::t.

SP~~V-.5~ =-~; ~ final su~ple::1e::t2.-:::-_;, t..."-1<2. :'!c:--.• ~err-~-:r !:or ':~~n:.~·/ - 3ay C.e 'le:::..~~.

.J!lne 4, 1980 Tape 2056 EC - 2 ~. F. ROio/E: Getting 'back to where t:!:le minister said he has written the minister responsible for Softball c~~ada, he did not answer whether or not he has conveyed our displeasure over the decision to Softball Canada itself and to ~1r. Ed Bitz. Has t."lat been done or will it be done? MR. SPEAKER (Si:runs) : The han. the Minister of Tourism, Recreation ~~d Culture . M:<. R. DAw"E : Mr. Speaker, t."le sports organizations in this Province operate in a certain degree of autonomy and we like to think that t."le same applies to their national associations.

Some of the problems t.~at develop wit."lin an assaciat'on should be first addressad by t."le ~ership of that pa~icular association, and I think the position of my department is t."lat r will deal directly with ~Y federal co~~terpart ·..who is responsible, and express my concerns at t..'lat le·..rel, ~~ ·:i l"lcpefull1· ~~e association ~ill ca=~~~y on thei= activities likew~se. !1R. SPEAKE3.: T..'le hon. t.r,e member for Eagle ?.iv·er. :1R. :::. Hrscor-:-<:: My question is to t:he Minister of I.a.bour and ~lanpawer.

The :ederal government have now ar.nounced '::."leir plan for job creation :cr Summ~r studen~s this Summer as ~ell as a~plcyi~g s~uden~ in various ot~er depar~~ents. I believe the su~ is S2.5 milli~~. Collld t."le Minister of Labollr ~,d Manpower (Xr . .:; • Dir.

n) a c.-rise .:his iiouse ·,;nen the provincial gover::~ment plan to announce their programn:e · for s~udent employme~t: Ai'l HON. MEME~R: Nev-==· MR. G. WARRE!'~ ~ They ~a not have a plan. ~I:a. SP.E;~:E5: The ho:l .. t_;,.e !1ini:s~er of La.bou:::- ~:-~c ~lan;>o..._,·e:~. :~~.. ;; .. DT.~~N: :~r. Speake~, L.~c fi::-st we he2.rd a= ~~ .. .: :t'e.C.er2l gove~:-.:~1-::1:. =::;

June 4, 1980 Tape No. 2057 NM - 1 MR. DINN: proposals for Summer employment for students, I was informed about a day before the announcement. It was somewhat dis- appointing because we had worked out a fairly extensive programme with the previous administration.

Indeed,not only the Summer Youth Employment Programme but the employment programmes that were to be generated by the federal government this year were ones that were supposed to be based on resource development and that programme was a result of some months of work by all the resource departments in the provincial government at which time, through me, a list was sent to Ottawa of jobs that we would like to have created that would have been useful or very useful to the economy of the Province i~ that they were all basically centered around the resource areas.

And I am somewhat disappoi~~ed at the way in which the programme was announced, the lack of consultation and the fact that we have very little information en what the federal governme~t is going to do- It is very difficuit then from that point of view ~o dovetail ~ny programmes when we do not have the detail~ M~. S?EAKER (Simms) One final supplementary, the han. member for Eagle Eiver. MF.. HISCOCK: I am ~ather su~prised the ~inis~er of Labour has depended ~pan the federal gove~nment, wh~=h is being classified as an agency of the province, a~d that ~asically he has - SOME HON.

ME~BERS: :!ear, hear! .!!;. . :!I3C::JCK: - not had any independent ?rogramme wha"":soever for student e.mploTment:, :1ot one. ,,-e have had Cnpcrt~~ities fa= Youth whi~h went on i~to Young Canaea Works progrc.rr,mes. My question basically is to tie mi~i3te~, doe2 this ;overnment ha7e any prog~a~roe whatso~ve~ ~0r 7CU~h e!1'lplo~rrnent:· Ove~ 300,000 people have al~eady r~criste~~d ~~~ t~a~ ~s ~ot ~v~~ ~h9 ti;h s=~oo: s~~cie~ts, 3,0JJ a~~de~~s ,-

Jun~ ~. 1980 Tape No. 2057 l-IN - 2 ~t~. :;:sCOCK: ~ave ~;qis~er~d, ~ocs che ~i~iste= a~d ~~is gove rnce~~ have a~y ?lans in the foreseeable ~ut~re. nex~ yea~ or :he year a=~er, ~o bring i~ a programme, incepende~c o~ the var!o~s departme~ts that would be over and above ~hat? ~!!L )I$~?.Y: ~iqht on. ~a. S?EAKZR (Si~ms l T~ e ho~. ~i~is~e~ of Labou~ a~d :1anpower. 11R. o:~N: Mr .

Speaker, to a~swer ~hat q~esticn first of al:.one has to look at wha~ we were a~tempti~g ~o co . ':'he:-e a~e a ce:-:.~in amour.t: o: :ece~ al dolla~s -:.n~;ol·;eC ev.ary year in atte~~~~~g :~ cr~a=e ~m?loyme~~ , ge~erally o: a sho~~ term nature, and we thought :h is year that a new era was come upo~ as i~ ~hAt we were ~o consule ~i~~ che federal ~ove~~me~c and any ~onies thac ~ere ?Ut ~~~o ~rog:3~mes ~y the !erle~al ;ove~~~ e ~:, ~he:her ~t was yo~ ~~ a~?lc~me~c o:- S~m~er amployme~t or Wi~:er wor~s or wha~~ver, woulci be :he k~~d o: ?rogramme ~hat you :ou!c ~ov~tail ~i~h 9rcqr~mm es ~ h3~ we h3'lg ava!:able here 1n :he Prov1nce. ~nd whac we hav~ ~a~ ~~ t~e pa3~ are :he Ca~aca Norks cype pr~~~3m~e ~he:e a communi~: ;o: colla~s app~ovec :or

June 4, 1980 Tape No. 2058 EL - 1 MP •• J. onm: the start of a water system and t.'J.en when the capital of the Canada Wor.ks funding ran out the community would then apply to the Provincial Government to finish a proje=t so they would get $50,000 from the Federal C~vernrnent and then re- ques,;: $750,000 from the Provincial Govern:t1ent to finish a water system that had been started and we thought that this was not a ver1 =onstructi ve way of doing t.'J.ings. w"hat we thought we could possibl y do would be to get the monies that were set aside federally and t.'J.e pro- grammes that we had here provincially and dovetail those programme s wgether so that we would have some advantage to the money that was being spent and there is a substa~tial amount of money being spent in this area.

So we thought that this consultative mechar.ism would ~e one that would work a little better chan the programmes that had been put forth in the past and they were supposed to have been taken out of the political and I quote the previous minister, "the political atmosphere" in t.~at they would be approved on a project by pro~ect basis and on the basis that the projects were viable. Some of the projects were, for example, slipways, tourism programmes, forestri programmes and so on and they we~ all itemized from l to 174, I believe - l'.:l HON. !-l!':l'l'ER: That is Canada Works ---- ~~R.

SPE. >.KE ? : Or der, please! ~~R. ~. DI~~l: ~~d chere were also youth empl~y~nt programrnes t.'J.at were included in t~is lis,;:. ~~?.. WAP..P.::::: : (Ina:>ditle) MR. SPEAKER (Simr.-sL Order, please! The time for Oral Questior.s has expired. I would l~ke to welcome on behalf of hon. !"EMbers e.·:> groups of students to t~e Galleries today. A ~roup of Grace 7 stuce~ts frorr. I..R. Ash Ele!'rentary School in Lethbridqe •,,;ith the:..r ?ri~ciD.:il. I think. ~~=. K:.nc; it is. The s:.udents a~e from boch distriC"ts ~f Bon~.~;istL::.

June 4, l98rJ Tape No. 2058 EL - 2 South and Terra Nova and we hope that they enjoy their visit. SOME EON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: A."l.d we also have with us today a group of fifty Grade 9 students from St. Clare's High School in Carbonear in the district of Carbonear and we trust that they will enjoy their visit as well. SOME HON . .'!EMBERS : Hear, hear! PRESENTING PETITIONS !'R. SPEAKER: The hen. the member for Lewisporte. MR. :'. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I have two petiti~ns related to ~~e same matter and I can present them bo~ at once if that is okay. !'R. SPEAXER: Agreed. ~1..~.

WHITE: The first petition, !'r. Speaker, comes from the residents of Stoneville and is signed by 216 people and it says - I can read the prayer. "We the undersigned from the community of Stoneville are once again requesting action from the goven:rnent to have the road through our community ?avec! - MR. HISCOOC: Once again? ~R. F . WHITE: "We have asked for this many 't.imes i:1 the past but it seems as if all our requests have been ignored. !'R. S. NE"-RY: .'IR. 'I'IHITE: Shame. "We feel t!:lat it is about '-irne that so!!'"' action be taken in this regard - MR. W.!'.<L~~~: Fight on. MR.

WHITE: - as during the Spring ar.C Fall our roads a:-e in a deplorable condition and t~en in Summer the Cust ;troble~ is almost unbearable. Also since the new ferrt wharf has been constructed at Farewell, ·"'e have much more traffic: passing through this cornrnU>.:.t? t.r,an ever :,e:ore. ~,·ith this in.creaseC. traffic our road conCiticr:.s -,.;:.2.1 gradually get worse. ·Ne are eX?C: cting prc!Tlpt ac':.ion ta.1<e~. at t..:,is t:.:r'E ar.d we feel ,,._re arg as much a rar~ of t~e Province as i3 S'!:. Jc:-,.,'::;. ··

June 4, 19 80 MR. WARREN: !o!R. WHITE: Tape No. 205 8 EL - 3 Right on. T~e second petition, Mr. Speaker, relating to the same matter ootres from the people of Change Islands - 1

June 4, 1980 Tape No. 2059 SD - l MR. F. WHITE: and it is signed by 118 residents of Change Islands and it says: "we, the people of Change Islands, do wholeheartedly support the people of Stoneville in their petition to government for pavement of the road through their community. We realize that since the ferry has begun its run from our Island to Farewell. that there has been an ever increasing flow of traffic through that town of transport trucks, oil trucks and private vehicles that come to our Island.

So at this time we join with them in their plea to government for pavement knowing full well that with the coming of Summer their dust problem can only get worse and worse." Now, Mr. Speaker, Stoneville is a small community located on the Gander Bay Highway between Port Albert and the main Gander Bay road. Previously traffic from Port Albert and from Stoneville used that Stoneville road and there is a serious problem there because all of the houses are along the same highway.

Recently the ferry operation from Change Islands changed from CObb's Arm over to Farewell which means that all of that ferry traffic is now going through Stoneville as well. Also, the government are thinking about the possibility of the Fogo Island ferry going over to Farewell which woiJ.ld mean an ever increasing amount of traffic. And I should warn the government at this time that I do not think the people of Stoneville, anymore than the people of Carmanville did a few years ago, will permit that to happen.

So I would suggest to the government that so~e action be taken quickly with respect to this very serious proble"' before an accident occurs and to try and alleviate sor.:a of the serious dust problem that the people of Stoneville are experiencing. I ask that they be laid on the Table a:-.J .re ferrec to the department to which they relate. ~R. SPEX:ER: (Sirr.rns) The hon. the member for Fogo "!.."<. E. Tt"L:<: ~r. Spe:aker, I rise to SUt;':90rt t!'le ~etition so ably ?resented by my friend frOI!I Lewisporte (Mr. F. 1\'hite.' on behalf of the people of Stoneville and I might add ::::"!ange Isl<J.nds as ···el: ..

The p~ayer of the petition, ~r. S?ea~z~, just basically asks t.hat the roc.d ":..,.O,~ough the cororr.unity of Stoneville ::-:= ?av~d. As the p-etition points o~~. the people of t-~a~ corr!!'.U-~ity ·~av'2 as~·-'::~

June 4, 1980 Tape No. 2059 SD - 2 MR. B. TULK: many times to have this road paved and have been, I believe the word that they used is ignored. Now, ~~. Speaker, there are many people in the world today who would not believe that in the twentiet.."'L century that you could have the dust problem that those people in Stoneville 1 and perhaps in other communities as well but certainly in Stoneville, have had to put up ·,rith ovoor the last number of years. They have an unbelievable problem of dust seeping into houses, cars, etc. and t:hat, as my friend from Le..,isporte (~1r. F.

White) said, increase~ more and more with the recent oonstruc~ion of the ferry terminal at Farewell Head. Obviously, the people from Change Islands,recognizing the plight of the people in Stoneville,have added their support to them. I would also like to point out that ~he people coming from Change Islands, too, Mr.

Speaker, have a right to a paved highway to other places in Central Newfoundland not just through the communi ~y of Stoneville and I would urge upon the go,7ernment t..IJ.e urgency of taking care of that matte!· As my friend from Lewisporte also pcinted out, the provincial government is now considering whether indeed they should reroute the Fogo Island ferry from Carma.rwille to Seldom where it now runs and reroute it from ?.oger' s Cove on Fogo Island to Farewell Head. And the effect on the community of Stoneville and on the whole area will be just absolutely terrible.

The people of Fogo Island also now enjoy paved highways, once they get off the ferrJ, to Ganaer or Lewisporte or wherever they go 1 and if tl1e ferry is rerouted­ then the obvious thing is that this should be done. I would also liKe to point out, ~r. S~eaker, t.."'Lat perhaps the Leader of the Opposition (~r. D. Jamieson), the other day 1 gave us a very good suggestion about how,pernaps,Newfoundlanc roads can all be paved in a matter of three or four years. I think he also 0JOinted out that Newfoundland can not afford to be withot.lt paved reeds. ~1r.

Speaker, my f:.·!.end from :S'J.rin - Placer- .. ~:ia ·,.;est (~r. D. Hollett) some time age.· ·~hen I rresen-ted a petition on b<2:~~~l: of t..""le peopl~ of Fredericl(~on, :90inted out t!1at p2ti -cicns i:1 this =-!o:J::::e are just regarded as a..'1othe!" ;>ieee of :;Jaoer. I 'N'OI.!lC u~e tha':: t~:.i-:: :-;.c"':. be ~he case >·rit-.'"1 this ?art]..cula"!" pe~ition and si:1::e the :!i~is"'ter of Trans~o:::-"t.3."t.1.~~ ar-ci Ccmrr.·.Jr.icati':)~S (~·1!:". C. 3re::~) i3 una.·roidably al:-sc~t todc.:,

Jtme 4, 1980 Tape 2060 EC - l MR. B. TULK: I would ask that either the Premier or the ?resident of the Council (Mr. II'. Marshall) rise and support this very worthwhile petition fro~ the people of Stoneville and Change Islands. Thank you. $.. SPEAKER (Simms): Bay South. MR. J. BUTT: Further petitions. The hon. the· member for Conception Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of 156 people in the town of Paradise, who are requesting a change in the boundary of the St. John's city watershed as it relates to the East side of Paradise road.

In part, the prayer of the petition says, "During the 1950s a very large tract of privately owned property situated on the East side of Paradise road was given over to the city of St. John's to be used as a watershed. The use of the property and the imposed restrictions by the city have rendered this property virtually useless to the owners. The property was also given to the city of St. John's wi~~out any remuneration or reimbursement to the people in that area." !-!.any tilnes since this watershed was announced, and ,in fact ,right from the start, the undersigned people on this petition opposed its inception.

Mr. Speaker, in part, ~~e prayer of the petition goes on to say that they have engaged the services, at this time ,of a solicitor to protect their rights. However, they would like and would much prefer for a reasonable solution through honest negotiations through the members of this hon. House and, of course, failing that they would have no alternative but to take it to ~l-)e courts. ~r. Speaker, 1 would like to go on reco~d as suppor-.;ing this petition. I t.'link it is reasonable. It is a fai~ request. I t.~ink these people certainly have a legitimate co~laint.

I would ask t.'lat it be laid upon the table of the House ~d refe~re:i to the department to which it relates. !:" ""\ r;

June 4, 1980 Tape 2060 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. S • NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I support the petition presented by the member for Conception Bay South on behalf of 156 of his constituents in the community of Paradise. I am rather shocked at the fact, Mr. Speaker - and I suppose Your Honour does not care if I am shocked or not - over the fact ~,at these people are forced to seek legal counsel in this particular 111a.tter. It is going to cost t..,em a pretty penny, I would think. The price of lawyers today does not come very cheap.

Even though the market is getting flooded they are still pretty expensive. But they are forced to resort to legal counsel. The member who presented the petition did not indicate whether or not the people of Paradise, who are arguing that this land should have never been t:urned over to the city of St. John's for the city ~atershed - did not indicate whet..,er the people had taken the matter up with his colleague, ti1e Minis=r of Municipal Affairs (Mr. N. '1'/indsor). Because it is from the minister's department that the city of St.

John's gets ~,e authority - or did it through t..,e minister's depar~ent - to expropriate ~,is land. So the member should put a little pressure on his colleague, ~,e Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. F. WHITE: You would think he would speak to the petition? MR. S. NEARY : Well, I am trying to bait the Minister of Municipal Affairs tc get him up on his feet. MR. Btl'l"l': It was dcne during the 1950s. The smallwood era in the 1950s. MR. NEARY: It is not the first time that this matter has come up, Mr. Speaker, in the House.

And ~,e hon. gentl~n - AN HON • MEloiBE R: You should not play politics with it 'Butt' . 11R. S • ~:2A...~Y : Well, if he ~ants to play politics with it let us play politics with it, but t..,e people now are clai~ing ~,at ther= was no j us~ification for expropriating this land in t..'"le beginninq . . l..nC.. the recourse tb.at I see that t..ile peo;Jle have is ~~ro~gh ~'1e Y'~nl.ste!" of Mu.."licipal. Affairs. So lat us hope thaC c.:,.e ~·~i::is"':er ot ~~unicipal i\::=:=.i~.; ~ I -, .-,.

June 4, 1980 Ta~ 2060 EC - 3 MR. 5. NE~: will straiqh~ this lllatter out for the people .of Parall,.ise so that they will not have to go thxough long drawn out court procedures and engaqinq the services of expensi VIi! lawyers. I would su~st to my hon. friend that ·he put a little pressure on his colleague, the minister, and see if he can get this ~tteJ:" straightened out. SOME BON. MEMBEBS: Hear, }lear! C, ' ;1 • ·-J

June 4,1980 Tape No. 2061 AH-1 ~ffi. SPEAKER (Simms): The han. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. ~. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I could not let an opportunity like this pass without responding to the hon. gentleman from LaPoile (~x. Neary). First of all, Mr. Speaker, let us straighten out one matter. The city of St. John's has not expropriated anything from anyone, it is simply a watershed whiCh is protected. The hon. gentleman has not the faintest idea what he is talking about. Nobody has expropriated not one square foot of land from anyone.

It is an area that was designated, as my colleague said, a number of years ago as part of the city of St. John's watershed to protect the water supply of the people living in the region. So the hon. gentleman is totally out in left field. In response, Mr. Speaker, to something which is even more serious,which is the petition itself and which I accept on behalf of the department , we say that we are very aware of the situation, we have been dealing with it now for some time. Indeed we made some amendments to the boundaries of the town of Paradjse last year to help alleviate this issue.

We also brought an amendment to this House,as the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) would recall,last year to give the city manager the authority, or to give the city council rather the authority,on the recommendation of the city manage~ to permit certain developments, wi~hin very strict prescribed guidelines 1 within the watershed area. We are aware of that. I am not exactly sure if all the areas that the petition relates to will have been dealt with before and that there are ongoing discussions with the city on that 1 there may well be.

I suspect there are, from the wording of the petition 1areas that these people are asking to have removed from the >~atershed ~rhich I would say to them we wi.ll probably no~ be able to consider.The boundary of a watershed is not something which is flexible such as a town boundary, it is something which is dictated by the lie of the land, by the drainage pattern and the topography of the land. So it is not something which we have that amount of flexibility on. I would simply point out that we do have a responsibility ~o future generations of the ?rovince to protect an adc~uate water sup?lY within a

June 4,1980 Tape No. 2061 AH-2 MR. WINDSOR: reasonable distance of the city so that we can have an economic cost of development. ORPER OF THE DAY MR. MARSHALL: Order 39. Bill No. SO Motion, second reading of a bill,"

An Act To Incorporate The Newfoundland And Labrador Petroleum Corporation," [Bill No. 50) MR. SPEAKER (Simms: Energy. MR. BARRY: The han. Minister of Mines and Mr. Speaker, I think that this is an historic occasion for the Province. The bill now before the House will incorporate the Newfoundland and Labrador Petroleum Corporation, a corporation which will have the power and authority to explore for, to develop, refine and market petroleum. Now, it is intended that this corporation will exercise the authority given to what is called .The Petroleum Board in the oil and gas regulations of the Province.

Under our oil and gas regulations the Province is entitled to a certain amount of royalties and they can take their royalties in kind. In other words, the Province is entitled to take barrels of oil instead of dollars and, also,the Province is entitled to participate as a partner with the oil companies in operations offshore.

So, obviously, the Province needs a vehicle, a mechanism, an institution, a corporation, a petroleum corporation to, number one, take and sell or process within the Province any oil that we may be entitled to from discoveries made offshore and, secondly,we need a vehicle , a petroleum corporation,to carry the Province's interests in operations offshore, in taking the working interest or the carried interest in participating as a partner wit h the oil companies that are operating out there. we have no suitable mechanism right now, at the present time, where this type of work can be done. ~e can think in terms of - if we want an analogy as to what type of corporation it will be, ic will ae similar to the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Corporation c

JWle 4,1980 Tape No. 2061 AH-3 MR. BARRY: except where that corporation deals with electricity this one will be dealing wi~~ petroleum. we have tried to set up a proper relationship between the corporation and government in the act because it will be government who will have to direct the officers of this

... June 4, 1980 Tape No. 2062 NM - 1 MR. BARRY: corporation and the board of directors, The government will appoint the board of directors, and government will control the method by which this corporation exercises its mandate. Now 1 whenever you set up any Crown corporation you have this problem: How far do you go in terms of giving them freedom to fly and to put it another way, to what extent do you clip their wings, to what extent do you· keep them under close government scrutiny, to what extent do you have them operate as a part of the public service?

I went through this exercise in the course of trying to arrive at a suitable legislation for the Hydro Corporation. You recall that we started off with -when we came into power in 1972, we had a Newfoundland and Labrador Po~er Commission and we evolved that into a power corporation and ultimately Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. And it took a lot of soul searching and agonizing as to how we set up that relationship between government and our electricity corporation.

And at that time I had the opportunity to study what had taken place in other provinces and to look at how other provinces had dealt with .this problem of the relationship between the Crown corporation, whether it be a Crown corporation in Quebec, such as Quebec Hydro, or the Saskatchewan Potash Corporation or whatever, and I found that there was no magic formula. There is no simple single formula that you can arrive at where everybody would look and say, 11 Yes, we agree.

That is the way the corporation should be set up so on the one hand to maintain adequate government control, but on the other hand to permit them to be as efficient •I and as businesslike as possible. Because that is the only reason c:. I ~.., :"l ' I--.

June 4, 1980 Tape No. 2062 NM - 2 MR. BARRY: for setting up Crown corporations, it is to move them a bit away from the normal bureaucracy of government, towards the more efficient, theoretically, more efficient private business entity. And it is a matter alwais of getting the proper balance as to how far you go. and how much freedom you give the corporation.

And I came to the conclusion,back when I was looking at Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro,that really you have to lpok upon each corporation differently, and you have to try and get the best relat~onship for that particular corporation rather than try and find one single, simple formula. Now, we will, in going th.rough. at the Committee stage,get an opportunity to discuss the details as to how that relationship is set up.

But you will see that the Lieutenant-Governor in Council, Cabinet, has the authority to appoint the directors and the officers, the president and general mana~er and other officers of the corporation. MR. JAMIESON: And the chairman. MR. BARRY: And the chairman. 'Cabinet shall appoint one of the members of the board to be the chairman of the board: Now, there are a few items of significance that I should point out here with respect to the bill. A lot of it is just the standard lawyer's print that you get in setting up any company, not just a Crown corporation but in setting up any company.

You have got to give it the power to buy and sell property and to borrow, and here,of course,there is the desire of the House to make sure that there is a limit on the capacity of the corporation to borrow. And I have tried to satisfy that desire,which has been expressed on other occasions in this House, by this government, that we keep proper controls on our Crown corporations and the total limit of borrowings as dealt with in

section 20, is set at $200 million. That is a lot of money. c. ""' ~~

June 4, 1980 Tape No. 2062 NM - 3 MR. BARRY: That is a lot of money but when you are dealing in the oil industry you have to realize that these figures are, shall we say- i.t has to be at least th .at substantial if the

June 4, 1980 Tape No. 2063 EL - l MR. L. BARRY: corporation is really going to have the capacity to get involved. Initially we would anticipate a relatively modest subscribing of shares and capitalization of the corporation. There is a mechanism built in here for self-capitalization in that under

section 6, subparagraph (l), (

K) and (L), the corporation is given the right, and this, of course, would be subject to the direction of Cabinet as to when it might exercise it or if it ou:ercises it, to select certain permits offshore. In an.e case it can select 1 apon application at any time, up to a total of ten permits without going through the bidding pracedures that are set aut in the petroleum regulations. MR. JAMIESON: Regardless of how many are in existence. MR. BARRY: Regardless of how many are in existence that it can only get ten without going through the bidding, the normal bidding that would take place under the regulations.

It can only select four - and here it says ''blocks of permits'' but this is an amendment that I would· ask somebody to note when we are going through Committee stage in case I forget to mention it. That should read'four permits' instead of four blocks of permits in 6(1) (L). It can only select four permits without going L~raugh a hearing procedure. So it is entitled to select six more without going through a bidding procedure in competing with other private interests but if it goes for more than four we have to go through a hearing pro­ cedure as is contemplated under the regulations.

Now, we believe that there is no conflict with the regulations to permit them to select the four permits without going through a bidding procedure and a hearing procedure because govern­ ment will have the control of ~~e corporation, will have the ability to direct how quickly the corporation moves in terms of dealing with the [

June 4, 1980 Tape No. 2063 EL - 2 MR. L. BARRY: permits it might obtain. One of the reasons, of course, one of the main reasons for the hearing procedure is to make sure that the general public gets an opportunity to have an input into the rate of development. MR. 0. JAMIESON: If I may, without taking the time at Committee stage, can they get a portion of a permit? MR. L. BARRY: Well, there is the authority here to take farm ins to take an interest in somebody else's permit. It would have that and basically it is set ap to operate the same way as a private oil company could operate.

But this gives it an additional advantage o~er a private oil company in that it has the opportunity or the right to acquire certain permits without having to get out and bid for them and spend money for them as other companies will have to do in the future. Now, why is this being done? Well, these permits will be valuable pieces of property. And ultimately the corp­ oration should be able, once it obtains these permits by selling a partial interest, to finance its operations.

By selling something less than a controlling interest it should be able to relieve government of the nec­ essity of injecting funds into the coproration. MR. WHITE: start-up capital. ~R. BARRY: Pardon? Start up capital, as it were, except it is in the form of an asset. It is in the form of land rights or permits that the corporation would acquire. But there is a limit as to how much it can acquire and this will be subject to the direction of Cabinet in how it exercises its rights to acquire the permits and ultim­ ately to deal with them.

Mr.Speaker, I have other comments to go through at the committee stage but I do not want to spend too much time on it at this time. It is a pretty straightforward thing. We are setting c . -· , I

Jane 4, 1980 Tape NO. 2063 Et. - 3 MR. L. BARRY: up a petroleum corporation for the Province. One thing I: thiJik that is worth mentioning and is f(lf some significance htU"e, is that we have provided for the poss:iliility, under

section 15(5), for - where it has sufficient financial income later on 1for Cabinet to decide that the corporation may issue free of charqe to residents of the Province what we call market~le overriding royalties IUlOe:!' certain tezms and conditions. In other words , the corporation, ::; '. 1 "l

June 4, 1980 Tape 2064 EC - l MR. L. BARRY: wi~~ Cabinet approval could issue to residents of the Province their share directly in the offshore oil and gas activity. MR. D. JAMIESON: It is the BC model. MR. L. BARRY: It is somewhat similar to the BC, the so-called brick model but not identical in that there, I understand, they issued shares. Now, the problem in issuing shares is that if you start paying dividends you end up having to pay taxes to the federal government. This is the problem they have run into in Alaska where they have issued money.

The government have said, 'We are going to give every citizen of the state so many thousand dollars. ' The problem, of course, is that the federal government of the United States is going to take a chunk of that in federal incoms tax so that,in effect, the State of Alaska has given up a share of its revenue to the United States of America.

Well, we believe that the federal government will be getting a fair share in other ways and we de not think it is necessary to give them another piece of the' action through dividends of ~'le Petroleum Corporation, and ~'lerefore, we have se.t up an overriding royalty instead of a share. But the benefit to the holder is basically the same. It would give him a piece of the action and would entitle him to payment, and these would be worth something. They could be sold, could be transferred. MR. D. JAMIESON: (Inaudible) tax. MR.

BARRY : But a resident of the Province could thereby get a direct piece of the action of the offshore oil and gas activity. MR. D. JAMIESON: But it would ultimately be taxed anyway, would it not, if it became part of income which was over the taxable level? MR. L. BARRY: It will be a question of whether it is part of income or whe~~er it is a capital gain. MR. D. J~~ESON: Interesting. 1-'.R. L. BARRY: Well, it may be difficult to avoid all taxes on it. And ~~is is some~~ing that may have to b~ looked at ~ore closely as ~o the terills and conditions you a~tach so as ~o minimize taxes c

June 4, 1980 Tape 2064 EC - 2 MR. L. BARRY : as it were. But we want it to have the flexibility to do this at some point in time once the corporation is in a position to have t.'le income to permit it to start sharing bfllnefits directly with the people of the Province. Mr. Speaker, I think that that is about all t.'lat I need mention right now. I am just checking my notes to illake sure. This will not mean a significant staffing of the corporation immediately.

Initially we would contemplate staffing the operation with representatives of the public service and Cabinet and the board of directors,to wait until it is necessary for the corporation to go operational.

But right away, as soon as the corporation is set up, it will have to start getting ready to get involved in operation s offshore because it could conceivably be within the next four to twelve mont.'ls that the Province will have to make a decision as to how it takes its interest in the Hibernia field, for example, whether it takes its 40 per cent as an immediate working interest where we would have to share ih the exploration expenditures and so on, or maybe we would only take l per cent in w~rking interest and we would take 39 per cent in t.~e carried interest or the free ride where we do not have to pay for the exploration expenditures and construction and so on.

But we can wait until the companies have gotten their investment back three times and then we participate to share in the profits of the oil field over and above the royalties that we will be getting in any event from the time that oil and gas starts to flow. So, Mr. Speaker, it is a signi ficant bill. It is not overly complicated, it is fairl y straightforward. We are setting up a corporation to exercise for government the rights which our oil and gas regulations already entitle government to exercise wi~ respect to offshore oil and gas. MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. :1R. G.

FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. ~ ! -:-

June 4, l980 Tape 2064 EC - 3 M.."t. G. FLIGHT: Let me say in the !"irst ins tance t.'lat I would tilinlt that this Opposition will have no problem in supporting this bill. Ob viously the corporation that the minister refexs to is necessa.ry. As we qo through clause by clause, of course 1 we will indicate our displeasure if there is any displeasure with t.'le clause.s 1 bue tile bill ieself is qood. We are obviously qoinq ineo an oil related econoiiiY and we agre e wic.'l c.. I .t-

June 4, 1980 Tape No. 2065 SD - 1 MR. G. FLIGHT: the minister that getting into that kind economy would require a corporation like he talks about to manage and to take care of Newfoundland's interest in that. Mr. Speaker, he himself brought in the possibility of this coz:poration becoming what many people think Hydro has become. I am sum that when Hydro was conceived in the first place, the Newfoundl~d Hydro Corporation put together, nobody ever dreamed that it would have the kind of power and that the minister would be under constant pressure to keep Hydro roped in.

Hydro is becoming a power onto itself as he well knows and there is a real danger that this ccz:poration could become even more so because of the monies involved here. And,of course , the bill is really anticlimatic in the sense that we know that the nucleus of this corporation is now put together, AN HON. MEMBER: They do not need it. MR. G. FLIGHT: It will be further staffed but the nucleus is put together . so really what the bill is doing is rubber-stamping something that the government has already clone. But the one thing, Mr. Speaker, that this bill provides is a great debating forum.

There is no question about that. This corporation, once this legislation is passed through this House and gets assent, there is no question that that corporation will direct this Province's adventures into offshore. AN HON. MEI".BER: Never. MR. G. FLIGHT: The rate of development, every aspect of offshore will be controlled by this corporation and 1 therefore, Mr. Speaker, it opens up one of the greatest possibilities for debating the whole umbrella, everything about offshore. And so, Mr.

Speaker, that may be what may happen to this particular bill, people will take advantage of it to talk about the position as we see ourselves in. And, Mr. Speaker, having said that, I would say to the minister that this past year and a half has got to be the most frustrating years that ever the people of Newfoundland have been subjected to on this kind of an issue. Sometime ago, two or three years ago, the government ,realizing that there was potential for offshore oil out there, brought in a set of regulations, a good set of regulations <::;

June 4, 1980 Tape No. 2065 so - 2 MR. G. FLIGHT: approved, Mr. Speaker, by this House and in hindsight t:.umed out to be a good move and again, I say, a good set of :regulations. However, Mr. Speaker, I de not recall anything indicating that those :regulations were opposed or challenged or made any attempt to deny Newfoundland the right to enforce and live with those regulations by the federal government. If the federal govern~~ent were to have shown the same confrontationalist attitude with the Province, then I would think they could have, and this was the Trudeau federal government prior to Mr.

Cla%1t' s intervention, if that government were to have taken the same approach to offshore as this Province appears to be taking with the Trudeau administration, then there were lots of grounds to have challenged those :regulations. But they were not challenged and today we have the offshore companies out there exploring and drilling under the regulations laid down by this administration, not challenged by Ottawa. Now, Mr.

Speaker, everybody in Newfoundland agrees that Newfoundland should benefit .from offshore, should maximize the revenue benefits, should have principal control, it may have to be shared control but certainly the principal control over the rate of development, that we see that development takes place in a way that is acceptable to the social life of this Province, that no boom or bust situations develop, that we do not have four or five oil fields, if they are out there,going at one time infusinq money into the economy that the economy could not stand and that when it was all over we would be worse off than if we had never seen oil.

Everybody recognizes that, Mr. Speaker, and it does not matter what one's politics are, they recognize that. But this adminis-cration was slowly building up and I suspect for political reasons, Mr. Speaker, a confrontation attitude with Ottawa, with the Trudeau administration over the offshore. And then there was an intervention, Mr. Cla-~ came on the scene and became the Prime Minister of Canada and there weresome politics there, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Clark, prior to the federal election, agreed by letter that some of the things that I have indicated, they were prepared to go along with. ~o·~, )'\r.

Speaker, the present Premier told the people of ~~is Province that the c; 1 .~

June 4 , 1.980 Ta-pe No. 2065 so - 3 MR. G. Fl:.!GHT: only way that Newfoundland coUld have any say and contxol, that the only way we c:cm uwQmize the benefit$ :i.lll by having ownership, whatever that vaque ownership means. Mr. Cla:dt put on paper the various principles that would guarantee. us CQntrol o'ller the rate of development, guarantee us max:i.mizing benefits, guarantee us the ability to put toqether this kind of cgrporation and the corporation having the kind of clout that the minister would see it having. aut, Mr.

Speaker, it became very obvious at the time and J: am not the one to - J: will read here, Mr. Speaker, it became very obvious and,as a matter of fact, an embarrassin-g situation developed when the Pre!llier of Newfe>'Ondland attempted to haw Mr. Clark, the last couple of days of the campai-gn, verify,indeed,that Newfoundland could have ownership of the offshore under an administration by him. And we·a11 saw Mr. Cluk refuse at that point in time and there is a very significant paragraph in Mr. Clark's letter where he lays out the ~ .~ .-! 1

June 4, 1980 Tape No. 2066 NM - 1 MR. FLIGHT: principles,where he says, "The above principles, all the things that we are prepared to concede to the Province, the above principles will be further confirmed and implemented by the signing of an amendment between the Government of Canada and the GoveriUllent of Newfoundland and by appropriate legislative action and constitutional change." So what he was saying, Mr. Speaker, in effect ,and what has been confirmed by a constitutional authority- Dr.

Eugene Forsey, born in Newfoundland, and one of the most respected men in that field, has expressed the conviction that the method proposed by the Tories, or by Mr. Clark will not work, at best it would take years to achieve. And ,of course ,when he is saying years to achieve he is talking about the constitutional amendment that will be required. position now. So, Mr. Speaker, we are in no different This day we are in no different position than we were in when Mr. Clark wrote that famous letter, no different position at all. The onl y difference is this, Mr.

Speaker, that the present administrat ion were indeed negotiating with Mr. Clark and they have shown no desire at this point in time to negotiate with the new admin istration, with Mr. Trudeau. That is the issue, Mr. Speaker. election, Mr. Speaker - We are not aware since the federal AN HON. MEMBER: MR. FLIGHT : silence. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) MR. FLIGHT : to have silence. A young purebred like me (inaudible). Now, Mr . Speaker, I would like to have Order, please! I listeted to the minister so I would like Mr.

Speaker, there has been no - I was going to say meaningful - there has been no official contact with ~ ., -:

June 4, 1980 '!'ape No. 2066 N.M - 2 MR. :'LIGHT: Ott awa, with t~e fad aral government, headed by Mr. Trudeau at this point in time , as to wh at that administra ti on's posit ion is re the of!s hore and Newfoundland' s- in te 'rest in the offshore . known as the - MR. P. ROioiE : MR. t!OLLET'l.': MR . FLIGi!T: AN HON . MEM.BER: MR. F. ROWE: MR. HOLLETT: MR. SPEAKER (Baird): MR. FLIGHT: • 1r. Speaker, t"e have; wb.at b.as become That is unparliamentary. Wha t is? He calle~ TrUd eau a sn~~e. - as the - ~Tho? A snake . That over there. say it louder again.

Order, please! t:he university docc_,.-1_ne, where the no w ?rime Minister stood in th e unive::sit y and indicated tb.at he was prepared to negotiate witr. th is Province , that &e was prepa red - as a matter of fa ct, he said two things and I '"ill get co this in a second, he calked about the ownership and he said, Mr. Speaker, exactly what Mr. Clark said , eithe r it woul d take a c ons titutio na l amendment which would take the years that Clark talked about , or else we could go to the Supreme Court in a non-contested reference and establish our ownership . MR. BARRY: MR.

E' • ROWE: :1R. !:LIGHT: MR. m:A-'U" : !-!R. SPEAl<SR (BA .!RDJ: :1R . FLIGHT: He did not say uncontested. Yes , he c!id . Yes , he did. Ye s. Yes. Uncontested . Yes . Yes . Order, please: Un contesced, Mr. Speake:. Now, Mr. Speaker , that was a commitment, a commitme~~ made by th e now ?r ime Minisce z campa ig ning for re - c:. '}

June 4, 1980 Tape No. 2066 NM - 3 MR. FLIGHT: election. But the people of this Province, Mr. Spe.aker, who he .ard that, are prepare.d to say, "All right let us see him deliver. We will decide it." It is difficult, Mr. Speaker, to - we have been challenged ,­ members of this Opposition have been challenged by the Premier, and challenged by the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg), and by the Minister of Mines and Rnergy (Mr. Barry) to stand up and be counted. What is our position, or what is our attitude towards Ottawa's position? Well, it is · very difficult, Mr.

Speaker, to defend or argue against the position when one does not know that position. MR. STAGG : (Inaudible). MR. HOLLETT: You got off the P.A.C. today (inaudible). MR. FLIGHT: This administration, at this point in time, has not attempted to glean or determine a positi on from the federal government in Ottawa. Now ,they may well do next week, they ·may well do. And we may well know if Mr. Trudeau is prepared to stand on the commitment he made at the uni versity , maximum benefits to the Province, financial benefits. It is interest ing to note, Mr. Speaker, that Mr. Clark - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: (Baird) Order , please! MR. FLIGHT: -made no mention of revenues in his letter, no mention at all of revenues or revenue sharing. One could take a lot for granted, but there is no reference in his letter to revenue sharing. However, Mr. Trudeau has indicated maximum benefits to the Province and principal control in the rate of development, which may be more important than the revenue itself, Mr. Speaker, in the long run, but we have seen a reluctance,for some reason by this government to go to Trudeau and negotiate and find out exactly what we are talking about. So, Mr.

Speaker, let us have no doubt about the position of the Liberal party. The Liberal fartj's position is that we would demand maximum benefits, maximum ':

.June 4, 1980 Tape No. 2066 Ga-4 MR. f"LIGBT: financial benefits . There has been some talk about 100 per cent revenue coming to this Province until such time as we ~ecome a 'have' province, until such time that we ~o not require equalization payments. Well, Mr. Speaker, it is very interesting to note , out of the briefings that the minister alluded to earlier today, that we are only aware of one oil field out there, Hibernia . ! mean, that is all we are aware of, and we are ~ot aware at this point in time that Hibernia is commercially viable. AN BON. t~EMBER: Yes, it is. ~!R. f"LIGnT: We believe it is. We hope it is. We hope it is. we believe it is, but as the ~inister's . ,. . ., ')"l

June 4. 1980 Tape 2067 1-IB - 1 MR. G FLIGHT: officials pointed out it would take more delineation wells, it would take other step-out wells to determine at this point in time - they used the figure 12 .000 barrels flow per day and indicated it may not be at this point in time a commercial discovery. But let us assume it is. I believe it is. T~at is the only oil field that we know is there. And assuming production of that oil field for twenty years, there will be only four years of that twenty that Newfoundland will be without equalization payments. Hibernia will not make Newfoundland a have province , Mr.

Speaker. Hibernia will not make Newfound- land a have province . . Only four years of the twenty years of development , at the estimated rate of flow , will this Province not take equalization grants. Andr Mr. Speaker, that makes one wonder about this Province's position with oil pricing. Right now Mr. Speaker , we have a Province -we may indeed have an oil field that may make us a have province for four years. The Canadian price right now, Xr.

Speaker, and the subsidy that is being paid - the government, Mr.Speaker, wants to get the price of oil up to world prices so that we will make all kinds of money when Hibernia comes in. But , Mr. Speaker , it may be ten years before Hibernia comes in. There may or may not be another field out there. So, :1r. Speaker, what happens? The Province's attitude, ~r. Speaker, is like someone I heard the other day on the ::. pricing, something like let us support Ayre's because I am going to start a little bull's-eye shop. The only method, Mr.

Speaker, of determining ownership - if the minister is right we must have ownership ,there is no other way we are prepared to go,then the only obvious route is by reference to the Supreme Court . if we must have ownership. Now. this Province has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars and it is becoming very obvious, 1:; I. '1

June 3, 1980 Tape 2067 MB - 2 MR. G. FLIGHT : Mr. Speaker, that this government do not want to go to the Supreme Court. They are not prepared to go to the Supreme Court . Any maybe the minister , when he gets up again, will explain why he is not prepared to go to the Supreme Court, Mr. Speaker, the minister has said on many occasions that he believes that we have a good case.

Everybody says that we believe we have a good case, we could probably win, particularly if it was unilateral case waere Newfoundland went on its own and it went on the basis that when we went into Confederation in 1949, we carried all the rights that we enjoyed as a dominion or a sovereign state with us . Yet, at the same time, Mr . Speaker, Mr. Clarke indicated in his letter that any consideration that he would give to Newfoundland, any condition to Newfoundland would also be given tq the other Maritime Provinces which immediately takes away - MR. JAMIESON: 11R . G . FLIGHT; All provinces.

All provinces. all provinces,which immediately takes away from Newfoundland's case on the basis that we went into Confederation in 1949 carrying with us certain rights that other provinces did not carry. So, Mr. Soeaker, there is evidence now that having spent the hundreds of thousands of dollars that the Province has spent and having talked about the Supreme Court and the case we have,that they have no stomach, Mr. Speaker, to go to the Supreme Court. It is beginning to appear, Mr. Speaker 1 that they do not have too much desire.

The federal election was held in February, This is a crucial time in the offshore development. It is a crucial time for Newfoundland re the oil related economy we are going to be looking at . And why they would not have gone to determine what Ottawa's position was re the whole offshor~ question is difficult to understand. Maybe the Minister will ?Oint out ,when he stands up 1 why it is that they have refused up to this point in time to go and discuss ~ ::.:

June 3, 1980 Tape 2067 ~9 - J H!L G. ?LIGHT: with the federal government their position today re the offshore. So, M.r. Speaker, one could go on anc:! on and on on this. ! ...-ant to :nake clear, Mr. Speaker, that the Liberal position on offshore is,one,ve would want maximum revenues from the offshore. maximum revenues accruing to this Province. Now ,I will speak for myse 1 f; the ownership as such i-s not imp or tan t. If the. maximum - MR. BARRY: Ownership is not? M.R. G· FLIGHT: ~o. the ownership itself. r·t was not important to Mr. Clarke either. Let me refer again - MR. F.

ROWE: Do not take that out of context now, 'Leo'. MR. li":II:RRY: This is the first day (ina udible ) ~R .:......i.:.-F :r;. ~~_!!_!: I hor-e they are. Mr . Speaker, I have c. I ') :: ...

June 4,1980 Tape No. 2068 AH-1 MR.FLIGHT: a half an hour here. I did not intend to use a half hour but I guarantee you I will use half an hour if the minister - MR. SPEAKER (Baird): Order, please! The hon. member has a right to be heard in silence. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, the minister takes Mr. Clark's letter and he flashes it around and he puts his own

interpretation on it but this

interpretation is very, very clear, very clear. And I am going to read it again in case the press is listening. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. FLIGHT: The , minister wanted to know if the press was around. Re. the ownership - and first I will read 1 Mr. Bugene Forsey, an constitutional expert, has ex~ressed the conviction that the method proposed by the Tories, by Joe Clark will not work or at best will take years to achieve. Now,here is what Mr.

Clark says, "The above principles"- everything that I have promised you further on in the letter, " The above principles will be further confirmed and implemented by the signing of an amendment between the Government of Canada and the Government of Newfoundland and by appropriate legislative action and constitutional caange." So Mr. Clark is saying, I can give you these things that I promised you after we have the appropriate legislative action and we have a constitutional amendment. Well, ~r. Speaker, the problem is I am not aware that Mr. Trudeau said anything different. I am not aware that Mr.

Trudeau said anything different. And the problem is that since the federal election of February 22nd· we do not know what Mr. Trudeau's position is. We know what he told all the people of Newfoundland and we know that five federal MPs were elected as the result of his handling of the offshore issue, but we do not know if he is prepared to stand.

The minister seems to indicate that he does not think he is prepared to stand on this because the people of Newfoundland find Trudeau's offer at the university acceptable, totally and completely acceptable and the ownership becomes a very hazy - under that arrangement where we are :~ ,r. --:~ 7

June 4,1980 Tape No. 2068 AH-2 MR. FLIGHT: guaranteed maximum revenues from the offshore, number two, we are guaranteed principle control of the offshore, the people in Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker, in case the hen. minister is not aware, find that totally acceptable. And let me tell the minister something else about the people in Newfoundland. Nobody in Badger nor in Windsor or in Deer Lake or in allthe Deer Lake's Newfoundland gets nearly as uptight about offshore or the issues or the revenues or the ownership or the jurisdiction as the people in St. John's because they recognize, Mr.

Speaker, they recognize it is going to take a long time before the revenues flowing from offshore mean anything to ~he economy of Badger or Buchans or Grand Falls or the Deer Lakes of this Province. I can see the people of St. John's getting uptight, we can see it already, Mr. Speaker. It is like everything else that has ever happened in this Province 1 it happens in St. John's. Andthe mentality out there, the people out there are thinking to themselves, Why should I get excited about offshore, the Avalon Peninsula 1 St. John'.s is going to benefit? This governments attitude, Mr.

Speaker - I have not hear them address themselves yet to what they see for the rest of Newfoundland as a result of the great boom .in offshore. Taking the Hibernia as an example again- when in twenty years· producing, based on an estimated rate of flow 1this Province will only be without equalization payments for four years, abcut the middle four years, there better be more than one Hibernia out there, Mr. Speaker, before offshore will mean as much to Badger as it will obviously mean to St. John's. So , Mr.

Speaker, before the Minister and the Premier keep whipping up this political fervor that they are trying to whip up, playing the political games they are playing with the offshore issue, before they think that that is having a great impact on all Newfoundlanders.they should go and find out what the people of the towns I am talking about. on the other side of the overpass,think of the offshore. MR. MORGAN: They do not want ownership do they? ~ f ') r. :.

June 4,1980 Tape No. 2068 AH-3 MR. :'LIGHT: They could not care less about ownership. All they '-'llnt - they want the dollars that ~l. boos~ their economy, they ~t che dollars to puc the services - MR. BARRY: I cook a stroll out there in June - MR. FLIGHT: Well you :teed to take another suoll oue there, Mr. Speaker. And I tell you something , Mr. Spea .ker, the confronta~ionalist attitude - the people are bewildered, they are ·~ndering what are Pre mier is doing allowing his civil service, Mr.

Speaker, to talk about gue .rilla warfare 1 they are wonder ing what the ?remier is doing in suggesting - and this came as a result of the offshore, is oil Eelaced - what the Premier is doing saying that Ottawa should be an agent of the provinces. ... ' 1'\ ... ~ .: ... -:.

June 4, 1980 Tape 2069 EC- l MR. G. FLIGHT: So, Mr. Speaker, the people outside of St. John's are very bewildered with the attitude taken by this administration with regard to the offshore. They recognize no desire on their part to sit down and negotiate with Ottawa. A lot of people are seeing 1 Mr. Speaker, the real situation here, that this present administration is playing the whole offshore scenario,taking every inch of political mileage that is in it, Mr. Speaker.

The Premier of this Province knows and the minister knows that sometime down the road the offshore jurisdiction and everythir•g else rel.,_t;.ing to the offshore development will be the subject of an agreement between Ottawa and this Province. The minister knows that. Mr. Speaker 1 we might as well let it all hang out- we will throw something else, from a political point of view,at the minister. Supposing that this Opposition were foolish enough, stupid enough to answer the challenge sometimes when ~~ey say, 'Stand up and support our position o~ offshore,' suppose we did, to a man, what would change, Mr. Speaker?

The Premier would get a mandate. Trudeau is up there for the next four years. The Premier has a thirty-four thirty-five, I suppose, to eighteen sea~ mar.ciate r.ow. Would any Prime Minister recognize any stronger mandate than that? Does one need a stronger mandate to negotiate? MR. L. BARRY: We wi·ll give you a minimum guarantee of three seats in ~~e next election. MR. G. " FLIGHT: We will see about the three seats. Keep going the way you are going on this offshore thing and we will see about the three seats , Mr. Speaker. M.."R.. BARRY: MR. F. ROWE: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. G. FLIGHT: We will set it at four.

Can I qualify, please? Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker, that is about all I want to say on the principle of the bill. I am sure ::..'"lere are other members who are going to get into the debate. -c:! j '":

June 4, 1980 Tape 2069 EC - 2 MR. G. FLIGHT : Mr. Speaker, again I want to reiterate the position at this point in time until we know what Ottawa's position is, until the Province condescends to sit down and talk to the Prime Minister and related ministers and until the Prime Minister and his ministry is prepared to say, 'That is our position, Newfoundland. Here is our position.' We will decide then whether we can live with that position or whether we cannot live wit.'!. that position. But until that time comes, Mr.

Speaker, any debate or any support or non-support for the government's position is really i=elevant. Mr. Speaker, I would suggest to the minister that he would start negotiating with Ottawa. Let us determine what the situation is, and then this Opposition will have no problem in deciding where it stands, whether it supports the government's position as opposed to Ottawa's or whether we are prepared to live with the position that Ottawa may take.

To this point in time we do not know and I am saying that the minister does not know and the people are caught in the middle, bewildered and wondering about the ability of this government to handle the negotiations that are going to have to go on in order for Newfoundland to maximize the benefits and have the kind of control and get t.'l.e oil developl!l8nt onstream. That is all I want to say on that particular bill, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. S?EAKER (Simms) : The hen. the member for LaPoile. MR. S • NEARY : Mr.

Speaker, my hen. colleague has done a magnificent job of laying out in simple and clear language the position of the Liberal caucus, the Liberal Party of ~'lis Prov1nce as far as offshore ownership is concerned. One point that my non. friend did not mention was the fact that it is very difficult for anybody to take a position wi~-.,. this government, because they have shifted ~'l.eir ground so often 1 ~-~r. Speaker 1 that if you take a position, if you say today c: ' ') J -' .

June 4, 1980 Tape 206 9 EC - 3 :-til . S • NE.l'JC{ : you aqree with the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. L. Barry) or you aqree with the qovermuent, tomorrow they will chanqe their lllinds and then they will ch,allenqe you to get behind that posi~ion. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. S. NEARll: to get behind, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER (Simllls) : MR· · s. NEAicr : Hear, . hear! So how many positions do they want us Order, please! we ju,st C<UDe through three briefing ses-sions on the offshore oil. They were held in private. The press was not a.lJ.owed to attend these sessions. It is unfortunate indeed, Mr.

Speaker, that the press were not allowed to attend these sessions. SO ME EON . MEMBE RS: oh, oh! MR. S • NEARY : As far as I am concerned ,personally, there was nothing discussed at these briefings yesterday morning, last night anci thi.s morning ~ ~1 1 :

June 4, 1980 Tape No. 2070 EL-l MR. 5. NEARY: that could not have been discussed in public. There was only one item that the minister said at the briefings that was private and confidential and that was some maps and some reports that were - MR. BARRY: Logs. MR. · S. NEARY: logs that were put on the table. And unless, Mr. Speaker, as Your Honor knows, if you work for the CIA and have a little camera concealed under your necktie ·somewhere, there is no way that you could bring this information out, even a newsman if he were there.

It was all of such a highly technical nature that you would want to be well-trained, you would want to be a spy for the CIA in order to be able to interpret it or take pictures and bring it out and give it to Mobil's competitors. Everything else - well, I tried to photograph it in my mind. I can see all the data now on the board and I can see the minister holding up the logs and explaining all the logs but apart from that everything else should have been made public and that particular item, by the way, that particular item was of no benefit, no advantage to those who attended these briefings. And so, ~I.

Speaker, - MR. HOLLE'M' : Everything is public except the language ? MR. NEARY: - there were a number of items raised at that session that I am sure would startle the people of this Province.

It certainly startled me and one of the things was, to continue on with what my hon. friend said from Windsor-Buchans (G.Flight) when he was saying the government have challenged us on a number of occasions to take a position, the impression that I got, the interpre~ation that I got from the bull session we had this morning, the political session we had this morning about ownership or management, put whatever term yo~ wanted on it, my

interpretation is this that the minister is proud of himself, is patting himself on the back because the government did not proceed with the court case two years ago when they did all c:. f ~ ")

June 4, 1980 Tape No. 2070 EL - 2 MR. S. NEARY: this research and paid a half a million dollars to prepare Newfoundland's case, the minister is now patting himself on the bade that they did not proceed two years ago. Re is saying, now our position is stronger. If we had gone to court, the Supreme Court of Canada, two or three years ago we might not have gotten a decision favorable to Newfoundland but now our position is a little stronger because - MR. BARRY : (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: Oh, that is what the minister said and he says if we could stall for another couple of years our position will be stronger again.

And so what the minister is really saying, Mr. Speaker, that ultimately the government have reconciled themselves to the position that ultimately the matter will have to be decided by the Supreme Court of Canada. That is the impression ~~at I got. That was my

interpretation on this morning's session, questions put to the minister and so forth, that if they can stall for another couple of years and the reason for the stalls for another couple of years is this, Mr. Speaker, that the minister feels that over the last two or three years that they have made mar.Ks, they have been able to go across Canada, they have been able to squirt out their poison, preach their propaganda and the people of Canada and the other provinces are now beginning to realize that Newfoundland may have a case.

And if they can continue to do that for another couple of years then it will make the case all that much more stronger but here is the bottom line, Mr. Speaker, here is the bottom line. If they can stall for a couple of !!"Ore year, the oil companies are going to hit the panic button. The oil companies are going to want to get into production and they are going to be putting pressure on the Provincial Government and on ~~e Government of Canada and then the crunch will come. c:. 1 J

June 4, 1980 Tape No. 2079 EL- 3 MR. S. NEARY: And then the minister thinks that the Government of Canada will be brought to its knees at that point in time and then you can go to court and ,get the matter straightened out. Now that, Mr. Speaker, wa5 my

interPretation. I do not. know how Your Honor interpreted the meetinq this mozn.inq and SOIIIB of t;he information that CUJe out last niqht. MR. HAHCOCK: Be knows you are right.

MRo NEAl'!%: The ~ter and all tb,e IIIB!IIbers who attended t.'le briefinq sesslon this IIIQrninq coW.d only come to one con­ clusion and that is that the matter ultimately is qoinq to have to be s~tled by the Supreme Cou:rt of cm~ada.. • ~r wastinq four or five qood years the matter, accordinq to the minister is CJOinq -. the only thing is, the minister Clo .es not want to be pushed too quickly in talti.n9 the matter to the Supreme Court of Canada. aut the minister will have to admit- MR. HANCOCK: That is what. be said. - yes. IIR. ~: And : '· =-

June 4, 1980 Tape No. 2071 GH-1 MR. NEARY: he said it, that ultimately the matter will have to be decided by the Supreme Court of Canada. Now, Mr. Speaker, there was something else that I was rather taken back by as far as these briefing sessions are concerned. That is, Mr. Speaker, that is the attitude of the public servants, of ~~e civil servants, towards members of this HOuse. &~ HON. MEMBER: The language . MR.

NEARY: No, I am not talking about the language but t.'le attitude, the attitude of the public servants, most of whom are going to be on this Directorate that we are passing this bill for today, most of whom not all of them - most of whom you would not put in charge of a bull's-eye shcp. That is the crowd, Mr.

Speaker, that the minister is asking us in this House to give this authority to, the authority to borrow without reference to the Legislature, the authority to borrow merely on the say-so of the Lieutenant-Governor in Council, t.'le Directorate that will have the right to decide diyidends and ~nen dividends should be paid with reference only to the minister and the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. The half of that crowd that I have seen so far you would not put in charge of a bull's-eye shop, let alone the Offshcre Directorate.

I think it is terrible, their attitude toward the members of this House, no respect, no regard at all for members of this House, and there is a typical example raised by the Leader of the Opposition today, and that is not the first time that has happened where the minister has turned the dogs loose. It is unheard of, Mr. Speaker, in the British parliamentary system, it is unheard of for a public servant to go abroad, especially to go in another province and get on with this kind of rubbish, "The Province is ready for a legal guerrilla war" - Pedro Van Meurs.

Now, there is a good Newfoundland name for you, there is a good Grand Bruit name for you, Pedro Van Meurs of the Offshore Petroleum Directorate. It is a matter of social and economic survival. Van Meurs criticized a revenue sharing proposal - c ~. ~ .~ :_

June 4, 1980 MR. BARRY: MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: Tape No. 2071 GH-2 Point of order, Mr. Speaker. On a point of order, the hen. the I must say I am immensely enjoying this, but r have to say, in all fairness, that individuals who are either members of the public service or who accept Consultancy work with this government, such as Mr.

Van Meurs who has since - I think I first retained him in 1973 - has done a magnificent job in assisting us and preparing computer models, in preparing the regulations that are now applying to the offshore to make sure we get the maximum economic benefit, that any individual like this who offers his services to government, I submit, is entitled to the protection of the Chair and it is a tradition of British parliamentary democracy L~at, if there is a criticism to be made of the department, it be made of the minister and I am prepared to deal with that and to deal with the han. member, but I would ask Your Honour to rule that dealing with individual public servants by name is not an appropriate way to proceed.

In fact, I have to say, Mr. Speaker, it is a·co~ardly attack on people who cannot defend themselves. MR. JAMIESON: MR. SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: On that point of order. To the point of order, the han. the Mr. Speaker, in considering the points Eade by the han. Minister for Mines and Energy I think you might take into account that I agree with the fundamental principle that he has put forward with regard to the, what might be described as, immunity of the public service. There is no question about it, that the minister is responsible for whatever is said by his officials. I accept that.

At the same time, however, I think it is fair for Your Honour to take into account that by this very act which we are putting through today, first of all, some of these officials become something more when they become members of a Crown corporation. '-L"<. BARRY : will be. I have not said any of these people ': 1 -, . -

June 4, 1980 Tape No. 2071 GH- 3 MR. JAMIESON: I understood that the hon. gentlem,an in question, or the gentleman in question, is going to be or is already on this Petroleum Corporation or is involved with the Petroleum Corporation. MR. BARRY: No, no. MR. NEARY: It says here in the paper - MR. JAM!ESON: At least he is quoted as having that status. MR. BARRY: That is the Directorate, not the Corporation. MR. JAMIESON: The other point I suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that is worth considering, and I want to do this in as dispassionate a manner as I can because it seellis to !lie that it is going to bec .ome increasingly difficult in the future, is that the rule with regard to the prQtection of public serva:n .ts ceases when those public servants go public. MR. NEARY> Right on, right on. MR. JAMIESON: That is what makes the difference. MR. BA,ll.RETT : (Inaudlblel . MR . JA. ~ IE SO N: The hon. member for St.

John's West (M r. 3arr ectl , who seems co regard him se l£ as the foun cain oE all kn ow led ge on eve ryt:h.in g, beli eve me , ! think t:; I. 1 :::l ,' "': I "

June 4, 1980 Tape No. 2072 IB-1 MR. JAMIESON: will find that I am right on this, that once a public servant or somebody in this quasi public service status of a Crown corporation, once they go public then they cease to have that immunity unless - and my question today was very carefully worded on that account - was he uttering government policy when he made the statement. MR. BARRY: And that is what I said. MR. JAMIESON: And we are now back to the old argument about whether he was quoted properly or whether he was not. But the distinction I suggest, Sir, the different between what the han.

Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) has said and what my han. friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has said - and I agree with him in this regard - is that once a public servant goes public, once he makes speeches, once he quotes and so on - MR. BARRY: On his O'lli'Il, on his own (inaudible). MR .. JAMIESON: -then I suggest that he ceases to have that protection.

And I might say also, by the way, that there are, I believe, even within this Province - and I will not attribute it to any particular member opposite - several occasions in which there has been very strong condemnation of, let us say, the Chairman of the National Energy Board of some other group of that kind for having made statements which were regarded as being political in their content. In the last analysis, I think the wisest course quite frankly is not to send people like that on missions to make speeches which can ost9nsibly, at least in this case in any event, be treated as inflamatory. MR.

BARRY: clarify something. MR. SPEAKER: MP •• BARRY; If I could just briefly, Mr. Speaker, To the point of order. I told the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jamieson) and the members of this House, Mr. Speaker, in response to his question that Mr. Van ~eurs was quoting me as ~inister of the Department in making that statement. Now,I would submit ~hat if the Leader of the Opposition wants to state or t~~e the position t~~t Mr. Van Meurs did anything differently than ~hat , that the least that could c ~ :;

June 4, 1980 Tape 2072 IB-2 MR. BARRY: be done is not to rely upon a newspaper clipping,is to rely on something a little more definite than that. I am saying that as the Speaker knows, Mr. Speaker, having heard me say himself in this House,! have explained it before, that is my statement that Mr. Van Meurs read out which was erroneousl y reported in the headlines of the Daily News and you can get that - MR. JAMIESON: And the Canadian Press. MR. BARRY: Yes ,but the Canadian Press story did not use the headline, Guerrilla War. The story refers to a legal guerrilla war. There is a difference . MR.

NEARY : Can we have a ruling, Mr. Speaker, can we have a ruling? MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : Order, please! With respect to the point of order raised . first of all,I am not absolutely certaL, if the gentleman referred to in the course of debate is a public servant. I would have to check that specifically. But with respect to the broader issue raised in the point of order I am not aware that we have had a ruling in the past on that particular matter and I would like to take the matter under some consideration before I give a ruling on it.

But in the interim I would ask the han. members in the debate ,during the course of the debate,at least for the present time, the rest of the day, until I get a chance to do some research, that ma ybein the comments that the y make they could sta y awa y from indi viduals names for the time being until I get a chance to do some research on this particular matter before I give a ruling. The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: I appreciate Your Honour's wanting to take the matter under advisement but I have to refer to this because these s~atements were made public.

I cannot possibly stay away from statements that were made by public servants publicly in another Province, Mr. Speaker. 1-'.R. SPEAKER: If I might I have no objection to the han. member referring to statements made :mt all I said was that they not: re=er to individuals by name until I get an opportunity to do some research ~n the point of order that has been raised. The other alternative - ~R. NEARY: Have an adjournment because I would have to refer to it . ; I f j

June 4, 1980 Tape No. 2072 IB-3 !4R. SPEAKER: Well the alternative is that I could adjourn and recess but I do not have the research at my fingertips. If that is the wish of the hon. members that ~~ey want a ruling on it immediately. MR. NEARY : Otherwise I will have to carry on with my speech, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! We will have a short recess. C J I

June 4, 1980 Tape No. 2073 SD - l MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! First of all, may I say that this has been a very difficult matter to rule on because I do not have all of the facts at hand and I did not have the opportunity, really, to do as much research as I .would have liked to. The point of order raised by the hen. the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. L. Barry) had to do with the ~tection of public servants by the Chair during debate in the House.

And I refer hen. members to Beauchesne Fifth Edition, page 114, paragraph 321, sub-paragraph 3 and I quote, 'The Speaker has traditionally protected from attack a group of individuals commonly referred to as "those of high official station". The Extent of this group has never been defined.

Over the years it has covered senior public servants, ranking officers of the armed services, the Onited Kingdom High Commissioner in Canada, a Minister of the Crown who was not a Member of either House, and the Prime Minister before he won a seat in the House. 1 Cons.idering that particular reference and with the understanding I have now, and the understanding I have is that the gentleman referred to is a consultant to the government,and based on the facts that I have now, in my opinion the hon. gentleman referred to does not fit into the category referred to in paragraph 321 (3) of 6eauchense.

So I would have to rule that at this particular time there is no point of order. The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Now, here is what Mr. Van Meurs said in Calgary and incidentally this is a Canadian Press story, also carried in the Evening Teleqram and right across Canada. Mr. Van 11eurs criticized the revenue sharing proposal by federal Energy Minister Marc LaLonde calling it 'misleading and inadequate'. Now, is he quoting­ it does not say here he is quoting the minister, nowhere in this

article does he say he is quoti.ng the minister. "LaLonde", Van .Meurs said, just listen to this," :aLonde ' - a minister now in the Gove=rnent of Canac:,,­ we are not allowed to criticize Mr. Van Meurs,acccrding to the minister we are not allowed to criticize this outsider but he is allowed to criticize 1-!r. LaLonde r a minister in the Government of Ca..,ada, a senior minister.

June 4, 1980 Tape No. 207 3 so - 2 AN BON. MEMBER: Hear, hear. MR. S. NEARY: "LaLonde", Van Meurs said, "wants control of Newfoundland's offshore oil to use as a club against Alberta to enable ottawa to develop its own oil in preference to the oil sands." Now, Mr. Speaker, ~,e shame of it,if the minister is admitting that Mr. Van Meurs is quoting him, then the shame is on the minister and not on Mr. Van Meurs. SOME HON. MEMBERS: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. S. NEARY: Hear, hear. Shame, shame. The shame of it all should be on the minister's shoulders.

But anyway I am going to get off that now because I have got some other matters in connection with information that came out of these briefings that I want to talk about. And I raised one of the matters today during the Oral Question Period in connection with emp ~ oyment. And we were told by the minister at one of these briefing sessions that this is not a labour intensive industry. It is a capital intensive industry the minister told us and he is nodding, he said, "yes", that is what he said.

And when I asked him how many Newfoundlanders would be employed in the production of the oil, the answer of one of his - 1IN HON. MEMBER: MR. S. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. S • NEARY : employed. MR. BARRY: MR. S. NEARY: Cabot - Cabot Martin - That is right. - told me 300 Newfoundlanders would be He did not say that. He did say that. I wrote it down. Less than 10.000 workers,between 5,000 and 10,000 in the construction and after 1988 . 300 employees. That is what he said, I wrote it .;.:-~-,· . MR. FLIGHT: And the minister bristled when he said it, he jumped on ~im. MR. S. NEARY: That is right.

And so it is not a labour intensive industry, it is a capital intensive industry. ~nd we were not able to get any information from the minister as to how much of the many millions of dollars that wculd be spent in operating and pur~,asing ::: •. I j .

June 4, 1980 Tape No. 2073 so- 3 MR. S. N'El\RY: of ~pment, how lll.uch would be pl11'chased in Newfoundland bec;ause tb.li! m:i.n:iste~ al .so qave us a very cautious :reply - AN RON. MEMBER: C:tnaudible l . MR~ S • NEAR,!: : No, I sti.l.l haw fifteen mnutes , Mr. Speaker. MR. SPE:!UCER: (Simms) I am advised by the Table that the hon. ~r has !ive minutes, I do not know - MR. s-. NEARY : minutes? SOME HON , MEMBERS : ~ RQ!f, MEMBER: MR. S. ·NEARY: there. MR. SPEAXE;R: ~ll., .how did you get it dcwn to five Hear, hear.

There is somethlnq wronq - Thexe is somethinq V%0Jiq with the timinq Will the bon. member continue speaking and I will che~ it a l .i ttle. further. MR. S. NEARY: that he could not tell us h.Ow much of the equipment and supplies and so forth would be s ';' :.

JUJle 4, 1980 Tape No. 2074 RA - l MR. S. NEARY: purchased in Newfoundland because we are not a manufacturing province so he thought maybe 30 per cent of the money spent on capital would be purchased in Newfoundland. And there is a big 'if' in'\I'Olved in that. Sow, Mr. Speaker, that takes care of the employment situation.

I also asked the minister about the first briefing we had 1 I asked his officials and the minister how much the oil companies themselves were spending on the offshore development,on the drilling and exploration and the offshore devel6pment because that has a big bearing on the future operation _.when the wells go into production, if the government follows through with this foolish policy that they have of taking a 40 per cent equity in the company, And then, Mr.

Speaker, the formula to be applied is that the companies will be allowed to recover three times their investment, three times their investment before this Pro­ vince can get their 40 per cent profits as a result of an equity in the company. So, that was very impcrtant.Jlnd, Mr. Speaker, the answer is that the oil companies are spending none of their own money except one, I believe, Eastcan was the only one that the minister qualified when he said Eastcan did net get the superdepletion allowance.

But the fact of the matter is that the oil companies are spending money that was re­ funded by the government of Canada via what they call a superdepleticn allowance, so they are spending the money that is being refunded net spending their own money. And we could not get a satisfactory explan­ ation from the minister, if that was included in the three times, three times their investment they would get back before they started paying out 40 per cent of the profits. And as the hen. member fer Windsor ,­ Buchans (Mr.

Flight) indicated a few moments ago, only three of the twenty years I believe the member s&id four but I only saw three on the board- three of the twenty years would be years when Newfoundland would net be entitled to equalization payments ,only three MR. HOLLE'!"!': That is under the Canadian prices. MR. S. ~ARY: -and that is under world prices, international

June 4, 1980 Tape No. 2074 RA - 2 MR. S. NEARY: prices, only ehree of the years. Why we would almost be just as well off to forg-et the offshore development, pro­ tect the fishery and take the equalization payments. MR. BARRY: MR. WARREN: MR. S. NEARY: You· are talking about $7.5 billion (inaudible) And kill the fishery. over the next twenty years,Mr.sp~aker, over the next twenty years we will get $10 billie~ in equalization payments,$10 billion.

We are only going to get four J:>OiDJ:.. something under the international price which is $33 a barrel~ we will only get $4.4 billion and under the Canadian price we will get $4.8 billion, under equalization we will get,over the next twenty years, we will get $10 billion. We will get more in equalization than we will in royalties and the revenue from the offshore. AN HON. MEMBER: (inaudible) MR. S. NEARY: These are all very serious matters,Mr. Speaker, very, very serious. And we are told that the companies favour, the companies favour the tanker system rather than put in a pipeline to brL~g the oil to shore. MR.

WJ.RREN: I see the minister does too. MR. S. NEARY: The company favours and it looks,Mr.Speaker, like that is a foregone conelusion,it looks like the oil companies are going to get their own way and all you are going to have is a structure out on the Grand Bank. MR. SPEAKER(Si:mns) : I wonder if the hen. members to my right and left would not mind having their conversation cut in the corridor some­ where. I am having very great difficulty in hearing the hen. member for LaPoile. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, it seems to be a foregone conclusion that the oil companies will put a concrete platform out on the Grand Bank and the tanker 5 ,the tankers will load, tie up to that platform 1 will load 1bring 100 thousand barrels of oil into the Come by Chance we a~e told. And it is a good thing ~ t, I ""'•

June 4, 1980 Tape 2075 EC - 1 MR. S • NEARY: we built that oil refinery at Come By Chance or there would not be one gallon of oil come ashore. MR. WARREN: Who built it? MR. S. NEARY: They are talking about 300,000 barrels a day, 100,000 to go into Come By Chance to be processed at the oil refinery and 200,000 shipped down to Port.land, Maine to be fed into the pipeline to be brought in for distribution in other parts of Canada. All this information is frightening, Mr.

Speaker, when you realize the hands that it has been put in, a bunch of amateurs that you would not put in charge of a bull • s-eye shop, or most of them. MR. SPEAKER (Silll!lS) : Order, please: If I may, to clarify for the hon. member, in fact, the notice t.'1at he was given was accurate. The hon. member began debate at 4:31 P.M. We recessed at 4:53 P.M., which was twenty-two minutes. That included the amount of time, of course 1 for debate on the point of order, and then we returned at 5:05 P.M.

I gave my ruling and the hon. member returned to debate at S:07, meaning that he ccncludes his debate at 5:15P.M., which it is now. I will allow the hon. member another t.'1irty seconds or so to conclude. MR. S • NEARY : I will tell you right now t."at I have no intention of letting this bill go through without a thorough airing in this House, and I will save my other remarks for Committee of the Whole. We will be here until Christmas because this is too important a matter to bring in at the last minute - ~ SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear: MR. S. NEARY: - to try to close the House down by Friday.

The government are t=Ying to force t.'1e closure of the nouse "'hen we are discussing a major piece of legislation. The hon. gentleman referred to it as a major bill, a major reform in t.'1is Province. So I will save my other remarks until we get down to the Committee of t.~e c· .... ; ,.

June 4, 1980 Tape 2075 EC - 2 MR. s. NEARY: Whole, Mr. Speaker. But I did not think - I am reasonably sure, because I was watching the clock more so than anybody - it was just around 4:45 P.M. when Your Honour went outside and I had fifteen minutes left in my remarks. But anyway, I will save it. If that is the wa.y they want to try to muzzle us it will not work. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Well, I can only tell the han. member What records were kept at the table. If you have further proof, well, that is fine, I will give you an extra ten minutes the next time you speak or something like that.

Would han. members join me please, in welcoming to the galleries a group of students from Forest Grove .\cademy in Davidsville in the Fogo district, accompanied by their Principal , Mr. Bruce Wheaton and their teacher, Miss Karen Manuel. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: If the han. the minister speaks now he will close the debate. The han. , the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. L. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, you know, you sit here and you do not know whether to laugh or cry most of the time. You do not know whether to laugh or cry! Mr. Speaker, we had the han. the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. G.

Fligh~) get up and talk about how it is time for the Province to go to the federal government and negotiate. Md, Mr. Speaker, to listen to him, he expects us to crawl on our bellies like little worms from St. John's to Ottawa. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. L. BARRY : What do you want? You are going to distribute leather pads to the government, to the ministers, to go on their knees from here to Ottawa to beg Mr. Trudeau and the federal Cabinet to throw a few scraps to us. SOME BON. ME!>'.BERS : Guerrilla warfare. s ~· I, !} :.

June 4, 1980 Tape 2075 EC - 3 MR. L. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the Premier has written the Prime Minister of Canada. and has s.i.id to him, 'Referring to the correspondence from Prime Minister Clark' and has said to him that we remain ready to work out the implementation details, the implementation ot: the agreement that has been entered into between the federal government of this country and the provincial government - the agreement as set out in the exchange of correspondence between the Prime Minister oi Canada and the Premier of Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker. MR. G. FLIGHT: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER {Silrans) : Order, please! A point of order has been raised by the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT : Mr. Speaker, the minister is misleading the House. There is no agreement between Ottawa and the Province. They did not get to the stage of having an agreement between the Premier and Ottawa so the minister is misleading the House, Mr. Speaker. There is no agreement. MR. L. BARRY: There is no point of order there. MR. SPEAKER: I would have to agree there is no point of order. The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. L. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, I would also ask that the Minister of Justice (Mr. G. Ottenheimer) check into how the member opposite got his legal degree to give this legal opinion that there is no agreement. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. L. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, under what provision - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! SOME HON. MEL'1BERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

Hon. members are fully aware that exchanges back and forth t."'-e House are certainly in order when it is acceptable by hon. members, but certainly, shouting is something that does nothing to raise the level of debate in this House or decorum. May I ask. hon. members, please, to restrain themselves in their comments. The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. c; I . - ' n ...

June 4, 1980 Tape 2075 EC - 4 !'!.R. L. BARRY : 11r. Speaker, wi.th some of the non. members opposite, you know 1 thare are certain restraining llll!asures available that require the azms to be down this way. That is about the only way it c:oul.d be done. Mr. Speaker, the hon. the member for Win~or - ~uchans (Mr. G. Flight) - AN H0N. MEMBER: (:Inaudible) • MR. L. BAaRY: Look, I will deal with this hon. member on another occasion, Mr. Speaker. If the hon. member would just keep quiet .and extend a little oeurtesy - /'IR. MORGAN: He does not know how to keep quiet. MR.

L· B~: - to membe .rs oppos;i.te. we listened, .Mr. Speaker 1 quietly, peacefully to the member for Winds .or - Buchans, to the ~!~ember for LaPoile (.Mr. S. Neary) • The hen. member did not have enough interest in the bill to get up and make a comment. Now, Mr.Speaker, -· '

June 4, 1980 Tape 2076 MB - l !;IR. BARRY: if he would permit me to respond to his colleagues I will do that. Now, the hon. member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Fli~ht), Mr. Speaker, what is it that he wants this government to do? He was not very clear. We have, Mr. Speaker, both in writing - the letter from the Premier to the Prime Minister - and in my face to face meeting with the Energy ~inister for the Government of Canada, Mr Lalonde, we have stated that we are ready to discuss the details of implementing the agreement worked out between the Prime Minister of Canada, Mr.

Clarke, and the Premier of Newfoundland, Mr. Peckford,in their exchange of correspondence. The Energy Minister, Mr. Lalonde, informed me that the Federal Cabinet had not yet taken a position, Mr. Speaker, had not yet taken a position. Now,· on the one hand and we have heard the member opposite get up and say, oh, you cannot accuse Mr Trudeau and his government of refusing to recognize Newfoundland's rights. He is saying that in the one breath you have all heard him say that. We have all heard him say, we cannot accuse Mr. Trudeau they have changed their mind.

The fact that they turned them down in 1975, does not mean they will turn them down now­ right? And now, today, we hear him sav, before we get the official position of this new government. He wants us to rush up there and negotiate with them. Right away we have to run up and say, look, here ·.re will give you this. we will give you this or we will give you that, but please, please , do not take away our rights. Well, ~r. Speaker, the hon. member 1 I would submit, was not being very clear. ~I_-:

June 4, 1980 Tape 2076 MB - 2 MR. BARRY: I wrote down here that he said ~It is time that the government of this Province went up to Ottawa and negotiated with the federal government." How, Mr. Speaker, can we go up and negotiate with the federal government when we have received no position yet from the federal government. The federal Cabinet has not taken a position. MR. FLIGHT: (Inaudible) MR. BARRY. Now, Mr. Speaker, I had a dis- cussion with Mr. Lalonde, the federal Energy Minister. who took the ?Osition that- and this was, he said, his personal advice to his colleagues - it would be MR. FLIGHT: When? MR.

BARRY. Three weeks ago when I had my meeting . That his advice to his colleagues would be not to give Newfoundland control over oil pricing, any control, not to give Newfoundland any control over the rate of development 1 how quickly the oil is sucked out of the ground and pumped up to Western Canada or Central Canada. No, Mr. Lalonde is not going to be prepared to give this Province any control in those areas. That is- now, We do not have the official position of the Government of Canada yet, but he happens to be the federal Energy Minister. Now, I just hope, Mr.

Speaker, that members opposite,in consultation with their Liberal colleagues in the federal government, I just hope, Mr. Speaker, that they are doing what they should be doing to fight for