April 9, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 345 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Monday, April 9, 1984 2:30 p.m. [The House met at 2:30 p.m.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill Pr. 1 Central Trust Company and Crown Trust Company Act MR. ALEXANDER: Mr. Speaker, I request leave to introduce a Bill, being the Central Trust Company and Crown Trust Company Act. In January 1983, the registrar under the Loan and Trust Corporations Act of Ontario took possession and control of the assets of Crown Trust Company.

Pursuant to that Act, Central Trust Company was appointed by the registrar to manage the business of Crown Trust Company. Bill Pr. 1 effects the nec­ essary substitutions of Central Trust for Crown Trust in the province of Alberta. [Leave granted; Bill Pr. 1 read a first time] Bill Pr. 1 Newman Theological College Amendment Act, 1984 MR. HIEBERT: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce Bill Pr. 7, the Newman Theological College Amendment Act, 1984.

The purpose of this Bill is to change the titles of the two officers of the college, namely principal and vice-principal, to president and vice-president. [Leave granted; Bill Pr. 7 read a first time] Bill Pr. 10 Edmonton Research and Development Park Authority Amendment Act, 1984 MR. HIEBERT: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce Bill Pr. 10, the Edmonton Research and Development Park Authority Amendment Act, 1984.

The purpose of this Bill is to amend the representation of electors on the board of the authority; that is, one of the rep­ resentatives shall be a tenant of the Research and Development Park. [Leave granted; Bill Pr. 10 read a first time] Bill Pr. 11 Edmonton Convention Centre Authority Amendment Act, 1984 MR. HIEBERT: Mr. Speaker, the final private Bill. I request leave to introduce Bill Pr. 11, the Edmonton Convention Centre Authority Amendment Act, 1984.

The purpose of this Bill is to extend the power of the authority to conclude leases, from one year to five years. [Leave granted; Bill Pr. 11 read a first time] head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, pursuant to

section 10 of the Government Land Purchases Act, I wish to table a report of activities, together with the Auditor General's report containing the audited financial statements for the fund for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1983. MR. KING: Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to table the second annual report of the Alberta Health Occupations Board for the calendar year 1983. MR. MARTIN: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to table for the information of all hon. members a document showing the wording of a petition of more than 23,000 Albertans delivered today to the Solicitor General, requesting reversal of the decision to ter­ minate the employment of 1,700 employees of the Alberta Liquor Control Board. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: I have the honour to introduce to the Assem­ bly, in the Speaker's gallery, a group of eight legislative interns from our sister province of Ontario. They are being led by Dr. Frederick J. Fletcher of York University.

They are here being hosted by our own legislative interns and familiarizing them­ selves with all the good aspects of Alberta's parliament. I ask them to stand and be recognized. MR. ALEXANDER: Mr. Speaker, today it's my pleasure to introduce to you, and through you to members of the Assembly, 76 students from the Steinhauer elementary school, one of the finest community schools in the province of Alberta, I suggest. These grade 6 students are here today having just completed a study unit on ancient Greece, culminating in this visit to the Legislature.

Hon. members are invited to make such connection as they may think appropriate. These students are accompanied today by their group leader Mr. Lucas, teachers Mr. R. Glenesk and Mrs. V. Grekol, and bus drivers Mrs. Cameron and Mr. Thomas. I invite them to stand and receive the warm welcome of the House. MRS. LeMESSURIER: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to introduce to you today 38 students from McDougall junior high, studying English as a Second Language. They are accompanied by their teachers Marianne Ritchie and Mirta Maldonado. They are seated not only in the members gallery but in the public gallery.

I ask them to rise, please, and receive the warm welcome of this Assembly. MR. PURDY: Mr. Speaker, it's my pleasure to introduce to you and to hon. members 49 grade 6 students from Millgrove elementary school, located in the town of Spruce Grove. They are in the public gallery, accompanied by their teachers Doug Hamilton and Sylvia Nypiuk, parents Carolyn Worbs, Barb Pardely, and Karen Kossman, and bus driver Tom Tomusiak. I ask the group to rise and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. MR. HYLAND: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to introduce three gentle­ men from my constituency who are with the Bow Island Corn Growers Association: Mr. Jerry Thacker, Mr. Gerry Fleming, and Mr. Bob Laidlaw. I wonder if they would rise and receive the welcome of the Assembly.

346 ALBERTA HANSARD April 9, 1984 head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Coal Marketing MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, given the spirited exchange last Friday on unemployment and this government's commitment to the private sector as the engine of economic recovery, I'd like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Energy and Natural Resources. Since the fall session of the Legislature, what specific follow-up has taken place with respect to the use of western Canadian coal by Ontario Hydro? MR. ZAOZIRNY: Mr.

Speaker, I must confess to some puz­ zlement at the hon. member's question in terms of encouraging jobs in the coal industry, given the fact that we were roundly chastised for saving 120 jobs in the Luscar Sterco mine. [inter- jections] MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I realize that the hon. Leader of the Opposition's question might lead to some debate, but I think we got a little farther away from it than I might have anticipated. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order.

I would just like to make it clear — I'm sure the minister would not want to mislead the House — that insisting on proper pollution con­ trol in the coal industry does not mean that one isn't interested in creating jobs . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I really can't perceive that as being any kind of clarification. That was an embellishment. MR. NOTLEY: Indeed it was, but it's putting the record straight. However, I would direct to the hon. minister the question that I put first of all; there was absolutely no return on it.

I want to know what this minister has specifically done, sub­ sequent to the fall session of the Alberta Legislature, to pursue markets for western Canadian coal as far as Ontario Hydro is concerned? MR. ZAOZIRNY: Mr. Speaker, I'm happy to respond, not­ withstanding the hon. member's efforts to have it both ways. I can advise the Assembly that in the latter part of 1983, I travelled to Toronto, Ontario, and met with my Ontario coun­ terpart, the Hon. Philip Andrewes, and officials of the Ontario Ministry of Energy.

I also met with officials of Ontario Hydro, and we raised squarely with them the issue of greater utilization of Alberta coal in Ontario. I point out, as was indicated to us at that time, that Ontario Hydro is currently receiving upwards of 25 percent of its coal from western Canada, of which the largest majority does come from the province of Alberta, including primarily the Luscar Sterco mine. In the aftermath of that meeting, via communications between the Deputy Minister of Energy and Natural Resources for the province of Alberta and the Deputy Minister of Energy for the province of [Ontario], Mr.

Duncan Allan, there has recently been established a coal task force. The Alberta government, the Ontario government, and officials of Ontario Hydro, with communications and consultation with industry, will be discussing and assessing, in a very comprehensive way, means by which there may be even greater utilization of Alberta coal in the province of Ontario than is presently occurring. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

Could the minister outline to the Assembly the statement made Octo­ ber 25, that within the next 12 months [Ontario Hydro] will be moth- balling approximately one-half of the power generating facilities in Ontario that utilize coal at the present time . . . with the most recent forecast of Ontario Hydro that there will be a 40 percent increase in the use of coal by that operation and that the bulk of this increase will come from the United States? MR. ZAOZIRNY: First of all, Mr.

Speaker, the information with respect to mothballing existing coal utilizing facilities is information that was provided to us at that time by Ontario Hydro officials, as well as the government of Ontario. The hon. member asking the question and members of the Assembly will be well familiar with the difficulties that have recently been encountered by Ontario Hydro with respect to their nuclear facilities, and those difficulties have caused them and required them to revise their forecasts.

In fact, I would point out that according to reports that have been received, it is the hope of Ontario Hydro that they will be able to boost shipments from current suppliers in western Canada by upwards of 600,000 tons extra to that which they had earlier anticipated receiving. That surely is welcome news to western Canada. MR. NOTLEY: Supplementary question to the hon. minister.

What appraisal has this task force — or at least the Alberta deputy minister — given of the impact of the multiyear shut­ down of the two Pickering stations, and also the view of at least some people in the coal industry that the extra 600,000 tons the minister alludes to is a very small percentage of an increase of some 4.4 million tons that Ontario Hydro will be using this year? MR. ZAOZIRNY: Mr. Speaker, with respect to the former part of the hon. member's question, that is exactly the type of matter that will be under careful and comprehensive study.

The fact of the matter is that with respect to greater utilization of western coal, there are a number of factors that have to be taken into account. One is the particular quality of the coal that is available from Alberta in terms of the present facilities in place in Ontario. There is a need for considerable expansion of blending facilities if there is to be a significantly greater utilization of western coal, and transportation and other related issues will also have to be assessed. It's a very major undertaking; it's one that we're going to pursue with vigour. MR. NOTLEY: Not much vigour at the moment.

Could I put a supplementary question to the hon. Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs, Mr.

Speaker, and ask what follow-up the government of Alberta has taken after the government of Canada sent the diplomatic note to the United States on the problem of acid rain, and whether or not, sub­ sequent to that diplomatic note going to Washington, the Department of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs under­ took any initiative to suggest that to be credible in the world community, Canada must clean up its own act, and one way of doing that would be substituting western Canadian coal for high acid content American coal by Ontario Hydro? MR. HORSMAN: Mr.

Speaker, that issue has been dealt with in part by comments made earlier in this session by the hon. Minister of the Environment, relative to the situation with respect to acid rain generally and the conference which he attended under the auspices of the federal Minister of the Envi­ ronment or in discussions with the federal Minister of the Envi­ ronment.

April 9, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 347 With respect to the issue of utilization of low sulphur content western Canadian coal, the hon. Minister of Energy and Natural Resources has made those representations directly to the government of Ontario and to Ontario Hydro. The task force which has already been referred to will certainly be taking that into consideration in urging the government of Ontario, and specifically Ontario Hydro, to utilize more western Canadian low sulphur content coal. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to either the minister or the Premier.

Given the answer of the minister, which included freight rates as well as other items, what specific discussions have taken place between the government of Alberta and the government of Canada con­ cerning a move by a producing province, Alberta, a consuming province, Ontario, as well as the government of Canada, to facilitate this kind of substitution of American coal by western Canadian coal? MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, on the subject of freight rates, those are an important ingredient in the issue of whether or not western Canadian coal can move to eastern markets, econom­ ically speaking.

The Department of Federal and Intergovern­ mental Affairs has not made any specific recommendations on that point. However, my colleague the Minister of Economic Development may wish to supplement my answer relative to the freight rate structure in Canada. That has been a matter of ongoing discussion with the government of Canada over a long period of time. This is a new factor, which should be taken into consideration in our future discussions. MR. NOTLEY: A supplementary question to the Premier.

Given the importance of the diplomatic note, has there been any representation on this matter by the Premier, first of all to the Prime Minister and, secondly, to the Premier of Ontario? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, not specifically on that mat­ ter. We have been leaving the consultation and discussions in the way it's been answered by the ministers here in the House today. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

Is the minister of energy in a position to give the House some indi­ cation as to when an announcement may be made, or are we to be content with a 600,000-ton share of what is a much larger market? MR. ZAOZIRNY: Mr. Speaker, the question raised by the hon. member really underrates the significant issues that are involved in this question. The transportation aspects are sig­ nificant. I should go on to say that one view expressed by the coal industry itself is some reluctance to enter into arrangements that are based upon a subsidy.

They have some deep concerns about whether that's the appropriate way to enhance sales. So I suggest that the appropriate course to be followed — and it is the course that will be followed by this government — is a careful, thoughtful, comprehensive assessment, aimed at long- term improvements rather than some sort of quick-fix approach. MR. NOTLEY: The pace of Mackenzie King. Could I ask the hon. Minister of Economic Development whether the Department of Economic Development has under­ taken any study of the potential of substituting western Canadian coal for American coal?

In particular, what discus­ sions has the minister had, if any, with not only coal companies but the United Mine Workers, who at this point in time are launching a crusade for use of western Canadian coal by Ontario? MR. PLANCHE: Mr. Speaker, I haven't had any direct dis­ cussions on that issue. I can't add much to what my colleague the minister of energy has said, other than that American freight rates are now deregulated, so contract rates for specific com­ modities to specific shippers can be made without publishing agreed charges, as is customary in Canada.

So the precise relative economics of shipping from one place to another versus from western Canada to that same place, are not as clear as they used to be. The economics are not simply one freight rate versus another, with these contract rates being adhered to the way they now are. MR. NOTLEY: Well, there are 32,000 jobs that will have to . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. NOTLEY: More time, more study. Disturbances at Correctional Facilities MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, could I ask the second question of the hon.

Solicitor General, with respect to the riot at the Calgary Remand Centre as well as the hostage-taking last week at the correctional institution in Peace River. What investigation has he launched of both incidents, and is he in a position to a give a report to the House? DR. REID: Mr. Speaker, in each case there will of course be a board of inquiry, and those have been initiated. The Peace River incident was relatively short-lived. It involved one mem­ ber of the staff. As far as we have been able to determine, there was no breakdown in the function of the staff of the institution.

It was in the normal course of the occupation of the correction officer concerned and, as I said, there was no breakdown in the operation. The Calgary Remand Centre episode, which started at 2:10 yesterday morning, involved the dormitory area on the sixth floor of that facility. The inmates did considerable damage to the facility. They gained access to the corridor and to the recreation area on the same floor. They did not gain access to any other floors or elevator shafts or staircases. As I said, the damage was considerable and has been estimated at somewhere in the vicinity of $150,000. MR. NOTLEY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question. Has the minister given any personal review to the assertion of the Alberta Union of Provincial Employees bargaining unit, that part of the problem in Peace River is that the most dangerous inmates are sent to that particular institution and that there is no special handling unit for these individuals? Has there been any consideration given by the department to construction of a special handling unit in Peace River? DR. REID: Mr. Speaker, I think the question is somewhat misleading. The maximum-security facilities are all operated by the federal government.

The provincial government operates medium- and minimum-security facilities. Within those medium-security facilities — such as the Peace River institu­ tion, the Calgary Correctional Centre, and others — there is a gradation of care and restriction on the inmates, depending upon their nature and their record within the institution. The

348 ALBERTA HANSARD April 9, 1984 impression that all of the most militant inmates are at Peace River is of course not correct. MR. NOTLEY: A supplementary question. That's not the ques­ tion, Mr. Minister. The question is whether or not, because there are a number of dangerous offenders there, this government is giving any consideration to the proposal of the correctional officers in that institution for the establishment of a special handling unit for these individuals. DR. REID: Again, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is giving the impression that the Peace River institute is full of dangerous inmates.

If we have inmates who are beyond the capability of our medium-security facilities, there are arrangements for them to be transferred to federal maximum-security facilities. Rather than involve the department in construction of additional facil­ ities at Peace River, I think it would be wiser to wait until we have the Grande Cache correction centre on stream, in about one year, and see what effect that has upon the whole system. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question for clarification.

Is the minister ruling out or rejecting the assertion of correctional officers at Peace River, that a special handling unit would decrease the danger of the kind of hostage-taking incident that occurred last week? DR. REID: Mr. Speaker, to my understanding there was no prior indication that the inmates involved were of any danger to the correction staff. What I said was that I was not prepared to start on reconstruction in the Peace River institution until we have the Grande Cache institution on stream and know what effect that will have upon the system. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

Given the minister's answer of waiting until Grande Cache comes on stream, are there any other plans, apart from a special handling unit, to prevent a similar hostage-taking occurrence, which involved torture of the correctional officer, at Peace River? DR. REID: To my knowledge, Mr. Speaker, the review has not thus far indicated any need for change in the procedures or the facilities. If they are indicated by the review, then we will have to look at what changes are required. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister.

With respect to the riot in Calgary, what assessment has been made of that particular occurrence in light of the speed at which inmates can be moved through the remand system? DR. REID: Mr. Speaker, the speed at which inmates proceed through the remand centre is really beyond the power of the Solicitor General, as it rests with the court system. I should draw the attention of the House to the fact that those involved in this particular occurrence early yesterday morning included prisoners on remand and federal prisoners who had been returned to the remand centre for the hearing of appeals.

In other words, a mixed group of inmates were involved in the occurrence. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: Might this be the final supplementary on this topic. MR. NOTLEY: Has there been any review as to whether or not there was overcrowding at the Calgary Remand Centre? DR. REID: Mr. Speaker, the matter of overcrowding and the number of inmates varies in any remand centre, depending on the number of people who have been arrested and who are in custody awaiting trial, the number who have appealed, and many other features that come into play.

For instance, when there are large numbers of arrests in relation to drug investi­ gations, that type of thing will of course have quite a significant effect upon the numbers who are in the system at any given time. The perpetrators and instigators of the incident yesterday morning are now in the detention unit, and it is subsequently overcrowded as of today. MR. NELSON: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the Solicitor General. I was wondering if he could tell us if there was any prior knowledge of any unrest in the area of the disturbance at the Calgary Remand Centre prior to the rioting that took place. DR.

REID: Mr. Speaker, no indications of unrest in the narrow meaning of that word. Earlier on, in the few hours immediately preceding the occurrence, there had been some requests made for information or complaints to be forwarded to the director, and the inmates were assured that that would occur. But there was no indication of any unrest immediately preceding the occurrence. MR. NELSON: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I won­ der if the Solicitor General could indicate if any demands were made prior to the rioting that took place by the inmates. DR.

REID: I suppose one could say that the requests for infor­ mation to be transmitted to the director could be regarded as demands, if indeed the inmate of a correction centre can make a demand. MR. NELSON: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary. I under­ stand the prisoners were removed from the particular area of the rioting. I'm wondering if the Solicitor General could indi­ cate why they were not asked to remain in the mess they created, and not have someone else come in and clean that up while they were in the quiet and enjoyment of another area that was already intact. DR. REID: Mr.

Speaker, there was use of tear gas and high- pressure hoses in the area involved, in addition to the damage done by the inmates to plumbing, glass, and other parts of the building. As I said, the inmates were removed to other units, the instigators to detention units. The area has been cleaned up now by other inmates and, indeed, part of the facilities are now in use again. MR. NELSON: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary. I'm wondering if the Solicitor General could indicate if there will be additional charges laid against those responsible for the malicious damage caused. DR.

REID: To my knowledge, charges have not yet been laid. But if charges are justified, they will certainly be laid. Radio Telescope Project MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister of Economic Development is with regard to the Canadian long- baseline array radio telescope. I was wondering if the minister could indicate what support has been given to the city of Leth- bridge with regard to their application and pursuit of this proj­ ect. MR. PLANCHE: Mr. Speaker, we've met with officials of the city of Lethbridge as well as with officials of the University of

April 9, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 349 Lethbridge. The responsibility of the Department of Economic Development is to encourage activities to come to Alberta, not to specific places. There have been representations from other universities for that activity, so we're not in the position to choose one over another. On the issue of the project itself, we have yet to get a formal proposal that we can respond to from either the federal government or the National Research Council. It's sort of like shadowboxing, to try to identify what might be done.

As I remember, the University of Lethbridge has made a proposal that involves some kind of support in a building or land or both, to encourage it to locate there. We have yet to have a proposal we can respond to. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. In light of that set of circumstances, is the minister pursuing the matter with the minister in Ottawa, or is the matter just being left on hold until Ottawa initiates some steps? MR. PLANCHE: Mr. Speaker, I can't be precise, but there certainly has been correspondence between my office and the Hon.

Donald Johnston's office and the National Research Coun­ cil, correspondence between the department and the National Research Council, and meetings with the National Research Council. We still are unable to get a handle on what the proposal is. There have been suggestions that it might also go to Man­ itoba and Ontario, and we don't seem to be able to get any substance out of those rumours either. Our judgment is that it will have some bearing on whether or not they can trade that for some Liberal seats in the west. MR. R. SPEAKER: What you can get for a telescope nowa­ days. Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. In terms of provincial support for this kind of project, has the government any type of program in place that may accom­ modate funding of this type of project? I know there's indication of the possibility of $10 million being allocated through the province. Is there a program in place that can fund this kind of project? MR. PLANCHE: Before I answer that question, Mr. Speaker, the Premier has also written the Prime Minister on the same issue, as I recall. In terms of funding for a project, there is not a program in place.

If there were a proposal that we could respond to and measure a cost benefit from, we'd be happy to make a proposal to the Legislature. The problem is that we really haven't any idea what they have in mind. If it's a string of telescopes and there is no intelligence-added computer head office location in Alberta, then it's only of passing interest. If there is some way we could be involved in such a way that we could have that kind of activity in the province, it would be a worthwhile thing to look at. Again, we've never had a proposal. MR. GOGO: A supplementary question to the hon. minister, Mr. Speaker.

Is the minister aware that Lethbridge city has made a commitment of some $5 million to that project if it should commence in Alberta and, further, that the University of Lethbridge has in effect agreed to donate the land on which that computer centre would rest? MR. PLANCHE: Yes I am, Mr. Speaker, and the citizens of Lethbridge have been very aggressive and positive in the pursuit of this thing. We're totally responsive to anything we might do to assist them, and have been and will continue to be. The problem is that we don't have a concept we can discuss, debate, or establish a cost benefit from. MR.

GOGO: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Has the minister been made aware of any studies that indicate that if initiative is not taken by Alberta or indeed Canada, this project would go south of the border to the United States? MR. PLANCHE: Yes we have, Mr. Speaker. We've had indi­ cations, rumours, and innuendo of all kinds of things, both on where that might come to rest finally and on a modified facility here. It's interesting to notice that the National Research Coun­ cil has no presence in Alberta, and I think this is the only province where they're not represented at all.

Surely some­ where on the list it's our turn, but we haven't been able to identify when that might happen or in what manner. MR. GOGO: A final, final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Would the minister consider giving top priority to a real precedent in western Canada by encouraging members of Executive Council and the government to move quickly on this? MR. PLANCHE: Mr. Speaker, we'd move quickly if there were something to move quickly with. Any kind of negotiation with the federal government where you make an initiative not understanding what it is they're trying to do is dangerous in the extreme.

On the other side of the coin, even responding to something where they seem to know what they're doing is dangerous. DR. CARTER: A supplemental to the minister, Mr. Speaker. Has he had any feedback with respect to the information that the United States government has decided to do the long-base array through the northern tier states? MR. PLANCHE: Not in any formal way.

The suggestion is that the United States is entertaining it and that the federal government, through some department or another, is now con­ sidering some kind of smaller ancillary project that might in some way supplement the Canadian long-base array. It's still not clear. The National Research Council has some kind of mysterious priority list that changes from time to time, and it's hard to get a handle on that — also, never having seen it. School Closures MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct my question to the Minister of Education.

Could he indicate why the Depart­ ment of Education approved funding for some 75,000 additional pupil spaces since 1979, when it was already known that there were too many spaces for the number of students at that time — I believe some 180,000 too many spaces. MR. KING: The obvious answer, Mr. Speaker, is that at the time those decisions were made, that was not known. In 1979 the department commenced a new program of finan­ cial assistance to school boards for necessary construction.

One of the very important elements of that new school building funding formula was that it allowed school boards to make the decision themselves about their school construction. The department could have adopted the position that it would tell boards what they could build, and when and where. Because this government favours local autonomy, we structured the plan so as to allow school boards to make the decisions themselves. MR. MARTIN: Supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. I guess the answer is that the department is not on the job.

350 ALBERTA HANSARD April 9, 1984 MR. SPEAKER: Order please. There may be a number of members who would like to debate whether or not the depart­ ment is on the job. So if the hon. member wants to deal with that, let him give notice on the Order Paper. MR. MARTIN: We will. You can count on it. MR. NOTLEY: In the estimates. MR. MARTIN: What assessment has the minister made of the impact of school closures in inner-city Edmonton and Calgary on the communities in which they are located? Specifically, has the minister ordered any community impact or socioeco­ nomic studies to be done by his department? MR.

KING: No, Mr. Speaker, we have not done any of those things, for the reason I mentioned a moment ago, which was not flippantly given. The government believes in the local responsibility of school boards, and it is the responsibility of the school boards affected to do the kind of economic or social impact studies the hon. member is referring to. It is quite proper to argue that education in this province should be highly centralized. If the hon. member wants to make that argument, I'd be prepared to respond to him.

For the moment I can only say that it is the view of this government that we should not operate a highly centralized educational system, that we should allow local school boards to make these kinds of decisions. It's on that position that we establish our policy. MR. NOTLEY: Tell that to your colleague in Transportation. MR. MARTIN: Supplementary question to the minister. Not the red herring of centralization; specifically, what plans does the minister have to establish a task force to deal with the serious problem of vacant school space, which is going to get worse in the future? MR. KING: Mr.

Speaker, I have no plans to establish such a task force. In my experience the citizens of Edmonton were just as intelligent on the day they elected school trustees as they were on the day they elected my colleagues and me. [interjections] I believe the trustees in Edmonton are quite capa­ ble of dealing with the challenges that face them. I believe the same thing of school trustees throughout the province. MR. MARTIN: Supplementary question. It's all right for the minister to talk about it. But as he well knows, there are zero percent grants.

My question to the minister: does the minister plan to alter the current capital funding formula governing provincial grants to local boards, so they will not be penalized for maintaining underutilized space? This is something that could be done by his department. MR. SPEAKER: While it's true that there is some relationship between the supplementary and the questions, there will be very ample opportunity to go into that sort of detail about financial matters when the hon. minister's estimates are up for debate, as the hon. member well knows. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order.

I think these are questions that have to be asked. There are school closures. There are decisions being made today, and people want to know the answers to these. I don't know when the estimates are going to come, so I'd like to direct my question to the minister. MR. SPEAKER: I'm not suggesting that the questions shouldn't be asked or that they shouldn't be dealt with. I'm just saying that when we try to organize the business of the Assembly in an efficient way and we have a certain time for discussing estimates, we shouldn't use the question period for that time.

Under the circumstances, the hon. minister may wish to answer it briefly. There is one aspect to it which would indicate that such a question now might be of assistance in discussing the matter when the estimates come up, but I really think that the opportunities when the estimates are discussed are adequate in themselves. MR. KING: Mr.

Speaker, to attempt to respond to the question as it is put, I should be clear that the government views the responsibility of the Minister of Education as being to ensure that a reasonable process is gone through by local school boards before they make decisions about the closure of schools. MR. MARTIN: Centralization. MR. KING: Provided that a process that allows the local com­ munity to have input to discuss alternatives with the board is gone through, we believe that it should lie with the board to make that decision.

I do not take the position that it is my role to usurp the responsibility of local school boards because I disagree with the decisions they make or because I believe those decisions are made too hastily. Decisions are to be made by the board. They sometimes make decisions that I don't like. The fact that I don't like the decision does not justify inter­ vention. In this case we are concerned that the community has an opportunity to know what is happening.

We are concerned that the community have an opportunity to make input and to enter into reasonable discussion with the board, at the end of which time we hold that it is the responsibility of the board to make the decision. MR. SPEAKER: Might this be the final supplementary on this topic. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. I remind the minister that I was talking about a provincial grant, which would be a form of centralization. The minister has quite a good document, the Ways of Using Excess School Space. I believe it was done in 1982. There are a number of recommendations.

Rather than going through them, is the minister planning to bring in any of the recom­ mendations coming from this particular document? MR. KING: We have already brought in a number of those recommendations. It is because we have brought in a number of those recommendations that responsibility lies with the board, the responsibility which I understand the hon. member to be arguing should lie with me. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton Belmont, and then the hon. Minister of Energy and Natural Resources wishes to supplement some information previously given. VIA Rail Services MR. SZWENDER: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Tourism and Small Business. Could the minister inform this Assembly whether any agreement or commitment was made between the him and the federal Minister of Transport, over the past weekend at the Jasper symposium, on the restoration of rail service between Edmonton and Jasper? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure I can provide hon. members with any firm commitment from the federal minister.

April 9, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 351 I can indicate that the symposium put on by the Jasper Chamber of Commerce was an excellent one, and I should publicly thank the Jasper Chamber for the work they did and the manner in which they handled that — very professionally indeed. Our position as a government, Mr. Speaker, was that we felt — and we made the case very strongly — that the rein­ statement of service immediately, on a daily, full-facility basis should be instituted between Vancouver and Edmonton and, for that matter, Winnipeg and the east, and that it should happen now.

That basically was the gist of my remarks at the noon luncheon and the position we as the government of Alberta took. MR. SZWENDER: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Would the minister indicate what the government's position is with respect to the proposed partnership sharing of costs in the operation of restored rail service? MR. ADAIR: Mr. Speaker, that was a suggestion by the federal minister, that the municipal governments, the provincial governments, and the federal government should consider entering into a partnership.

Of course, I did indicate to them that I was concerned about that, in that, one, it was a national service — as a matter of fact, it goes back to the last spike being driven in 1885, and that's 100 years ago next year. At the time, that service was considered to be one of the threads that tied this country together, and we would hope they would recognize that in the reinstitution of service on VIA Rail from coast to coast.

Relative to the comments about the partnership arrangements or the cost sharing, one of the concerns we had was that if we were going to get involved in any suggestion of cost sharing, then we must be involved in the decision-making that would take place at that particular time. I did indicate to the federal minister that I was prepared to look at that suggestion if he was prepared to forward to us the copies of any of the negotiated agreements with those provinces or municipalities to which service had been reinstated in the last 15 months. Forest Industry — Whitecourt MR.

ZAOZIRNY: I simply want to respond to a question taken as notice on my behalf by the hon. Premier last Wednesday, with respect to the deposit by British Columbia Forest Products with regard to their forest management agreement, and advise the Assembly that pursuant to

section 40 of the forest man­ agement agreement, the government has served notice of default on British Columbia Forest Products, by way of a letter from me dated March 7, 1984. The company legally has a six- month period within which to remedy the breach outlined in that letter. If the company fails to do so, at that point in time the government is legally entitled to claim forfeiture of the sum in question. ORDERS OF THE DAY head: COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY [Mr. Purdy in the Chair] MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Committee of Supply will please come to order. Department of Advanced Education MR.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Has the minister any opening comments? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the opportunity to once again bring forward the request for assistance for the Department of Advanced Education, in the amount of $871,435,888 to support the universities, colleges, technical schools, and publicly administered institutions for another fiscal year. Mr. Chairman, it's interesting that it is now just one week into my 10th year as a cabinet minister and, while the time flies, in the last year and a half it has been a very enjoyable experience to be part of Advanced Education.

First of all I want to take just a few minutes to express my thanks to my own ministerial staff in particular, Sharon Tymkow and Arlene Breitkreuz, who have afforded me out­ standing assistance in the past 10 years and, moreover, have provided extremely capable assistance in the past year as we moved to Advanced Education. Advanced Education has an extremely difficult set of prob­ lems facing it right now.

It is in that context that I also want to express my thanks to the department for providing me with assistance and backup and for dealing in a very professional manner with the kinds of problems that are before us. I want to express my deepest appreciation to all those in Advanced Education and the publicly administered institutions. While I'm giving out thanks, Mr. Chairman, I think it's appropriate that we also express our thanks to those people who, on behalf of the government, accept appointments to administer and operate the boards across the province, uni­ versities and colleges in particular.

They serve unselfishly, dealing with very complex matters, and to them as well I want to express appreciation and thanks on behalf of the province of Alberta. In terms of highlights through this fiscal year, Mr. Chairman, several things come to mind. First of all, Athabasca University will open its doors in the town of Athabasca in September 1984, a decision made some time ago.

Construction is now essentially completed, and over the next few months we will be accommodating the move to Athabasca by the existing staff — a very significant decision on behalf of this government, one which will bring Alberta into high-tech applications in terms of computers and teleconferencing satellite communi­ cation and education modes of the future.

I think this will serve us very well as we attempt to adjust to the changing time before us: the information age, the new application of systems, and the new ways in which we deal with the problems of educating a very diverse population not necessarily in facilities them­ selves. So I think the decision on Athabasca University must clearly be seen to be a signpost of our ability to adopt, change, and reflect the kinds of changing circumstances before us. Moreover, the fact that it is now taking place must in itself reinforce that decision.

Let me just express a note with respect to the financial assistance to universities and colleges in a very broad way. I'm sure all hon. members will want an opportunity to express a view with respect to their own particular pet projects in uni­ versities and colleges across this province, but I will only make a couple of introductory comments in a very broad way. First of all we know that we in the province of Alberta have gone through the budget process these last few weeks.

We've had very interesting comments from various members, includ­ ing the Leader of the Opposition, on whether or not we've adopted the proper fiscal policy, and other observations as to

352 ALBERTA HANSARD April 9, 1984 how we could better cope with the allocation of resources which are available to us. Those are very fair comments. I'm sure I'll appreciate and receive statements about how we can better allocate resources within this department. Nonetheless, some things are fairly clear. Number one, there have been no cutbacks to universities or colleges in this province and, in terms of contributions to colleges and universities, Alberta ranks highest in any test across the provinces of Canada.

Whether in assist­ ance per student, assistance per population, or increases in overall contributions, Alberta still ranks among the number one in Canada. Secondly, in terms of the students themselves, there isn't any question that student fees in Alberta are among the lowest in Canada. I can't say that they are specifically the lowest, but certainly they are among the lowest.

The tuition fee policy we have in place, implemented by my colleague the Member for Medicine Hat, the Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs, has gone a long way to rationalizing what was a difficult and troublesome problem: how boards of governors could set tuition fees to ensure that an equitable balance was maintained between student and provincial contributions. Still I must say, and underscore, that tuition fees in Alberta are among the lowest in Canada. Finally, there is no question that the systems themselves are well built.

We have made very massive contributions on the capital side over the past few years. We have built very elab­ orate systems, both in response to the needs of students and in response to the kinds of jobs being generated by the private sector. Trades and technology programs are very well received. There is no question that the universities themselves are among the best in Canada. I would simply note, as a matter of interest, that the University of Alberta is now the second largest univer­ sity in Canada, ranking only behind the University of Toronto in terms of student size.

But as well, it has a reputation far beyond just the Canadian dimension and is well received and recognized as a leader in many fields, particularly the sciences and engineering, and of course the humanities as well. With respect to student assistance, I'm sure a quick review of this budget will show that over the past several years, we have accommodated the student numbers without any cutbacks whatsoever.

In fact we have expanded in an aggressive fashion the number of students who can participate in loan assistance, the various kinds of grants available from this province to every student who is qualified and interested in going to university or college. The amount this year is $64 million, and we antic­ ipate that 42,000 students will be able to participate in these student loans in some fashion. There is no question of the fact that in terms of the overall review of the way in which we assist students, the province of Alberta must again be seen to be number one.

Although the institutions themselves will receive zero per­ cent on a year over year basis, as the hon. Treasurer pointed out in his budget, within the dollars allocated to me we have provision to adjust for volume; that is, where student numbers have increased dramatically, not only can I provide some spe­ cial assistance to accommodate the volume they are receiving, of the order of 2 percent, but I can also add to that the special enrollment funding which Alberta has provided for the past two years and which will continue as term-certain money to the colleges and institutions. So on that side, Mr.

Chairman, I think it is clear that the province has again adjusted to the student numbers and provided a very reasonable level of assist­ ance in terms of how these institutions are coping. I should say that I appreciate the joint responsibility which has been accepted by colleges and universities to cope with the student numbers. The last time I addressed the issue specifi­ cally, I believe I noted that I thought that first of all, the number increases in institutions in this province were essentially a result of the fact that a recession has taken place and jobs are harder to come by.

That is the reason many students are going back to universities. I can also go on to say that it's my view that the rate of increase of student numbers should decrease this year; that is, the rate of increase should be less this year than in previous years. That of course is accommodated by the fact that the population of Alberta is down. Moreover, the number of students coming from high schools is in fact down and will continue to trend down over the next two to three year period.

In that sense, I am saying that I believe the bulk of student numbers is probably here, but we still have some very inter­ esting issues with respect to public policy which can be con­ sidered; that is, is in fact access to universities and colleges as fully open as we would like to see? Mr. Chairman, I simply invite comments and questions from my colleagues. I hope to accommodate all those that I can within my ability to deal with them. If there's any follow-up, I have a couple of possibilities: either memos or communication later.

But I will certainly attempt, at least wherever possible, to deal with the questions that are given to me. Thank you for the opportunity of making some opening comments. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Chairman, before I deal with the situation at the university level, I would like to make a representation that I trust the hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury will endorse as well.

For some time now, Olds College has been lobbying the department with respect to a learning resource centre at Olds College, a concept that I think offers something unique because there has been a close working relationship with the college board and the town of Olds. Having had an opportunity to be in Olds last Friday and to chat briefly with the mayor as well as the president of the college, I might just say that this matter was first brought to my attention some time ago by people in the Olds area. I would think that this is the kind of capital improvement which merits consideration in the budget estimates.

When it comes to capital projects, Mr. Chairman, during the course of the estimates, there will be a number of projects favoured by this government that my colleague and I in the Official Opposition will criticize. For example, the renovation of McDougall school is a colossal, total waste of time, unsub­ stantiated by the needs of the moment. But there are many capital projects that do merit proceeding. Because we will single out some that in our judgment are frivolous and wasteful, does not mean that we should not proceed with others.

As we look at the way of bridging the investment gap between the private- sector economy at the moment and the necessary stimulus we need to do something about unemployment, it seems to me that we have to assess some of those projects which have been developed with a good deal of precision. To immediately under­ take capital projects from square one may get you into trouble. I do know that a number of postsecondary institutions in this province — the colleges and universities, for example — have done some considerable planning. It seems to me, Mr.

Chairman, that proceeding on some of these projects at this stage would be money well spent. We would be able to get much better bids at the present time. We'd be able to put people to work in the short run but, in the long run, provide the kind of infrastructure we need at the postsecondary level to accom­ modate not only the present surge in enrollment but the long- term requirements of our postsecondary facilities. Mr. Chairman, I'm not so sure we're going to see a decline in the increase in enrollment. The minister is probably right

April 9, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 353 when he says that the number of grade 12 students is down a bit. The fact is that whenever you see an economy in the rather sad state the Alberta economy is at the moment — and we'll pass that by for the moment — when you see that situation drag on from month to month and, if anything, get worse, what happens is that you not only have grade 12 students who decide they're going to take university or college training, you have people who are unemployed coming back into the postsecond- ary process. Mr.

Chairman, during the last few years of the former administration — of course unemployment was never as bad in those days. I'm not saying the old Social Credit government was doing a better job, but it was never quite as bad. We did have a downturn in the last few years, and I remember sitting in the gallery and watching the Leader of the Opposition jump up and down even more emphatically than we do now, con­ cerned about 32,000 unemployed in 1969 or 1970. If we had 32,000 unemployed at the moment, we'd be jumping up and down for joy, and so would government members across the way.

Nevertheless, by Alberta standards, there was something of a downturn. Yet during those years, we had very substantial capital construction in our postsecondary facilities across the province. I think we have to take a close look at those kinds of projects which make sense at the moment. The minister has received representation from time to time from the college board in Fairview on certain projects there that I think make a good deal of sense, and I'd just like to add my endorsation — it may come from a rather unusual quarter — of the proposal for the learning resource centre at Olds College. Mr.

Chairman, what are we dealing with when it comes to university enrollment? With the university figures I have before me, taking a look at the estimates the minister is presenting to the committee and also checking with the university, we see that in 1983-84 we've had an increase of 8.5 percent; in '84- 85 the projected increase is 6 to 9 percent, depending on the rate of the economy, I suppose. The problem with what the minister is saying — the minister is saying there are no cuts. There may not be cuts in dollar terms; there's a 1.6 percent increase in the estimates to the University of Alberta this year.

But if there is an increase in enrollment, that forces the univer­ sity to make cuts in the quality of programs. Mr. Chairman, there is a point where it seems to me we not only strip away the fat in the system but take away the lean as well. It's been very fashionable to talk about the fat at the university level. We had members in this House talk about it in 1973; we had members talk about it in 1975.

Then we had the huge demonstration of 5,000 students calling for Bert Hohol, at that time the Minister of Advanced Education — not calling for him in a very flattering way, nevertheless he got more attention than most government members, a great audi­ ence. At that time, the government decided to come up with an extra $1 million, because the grant structure they were pre­ senting to the Legislature wasn't adequate. We had an increase of an extra million dollars to the University of Alberta in that given year. The point I want to make, Mr.

Chairman, is that over the years, because the enrollment has been going up and the rate of increase in our grants has not been keeping pace with the combination of inflation and enrollment, we now have a situ­ ation where in my judgment there is a considerable danger that we are not only going to be cutting fat at the University of Alberta and the University of Calgary, we are going to be cutting into the lean of our postsecondary education network.

The two most important parts of it are our two major universities — not to denigrate all the other facilities, which are important, but the two major universities are the two facets we simply cannot allow to go downhill. I say to you, Mr. Chairman, that I think there's some evidence there will be a problem we're going to have to pay for in the years ahead. We can talk all we like about the private sector and economic recovery.

We send the Premier to Cali­ fornia to sell natural gas — not to Ontario to sell coal but to California to sell natural gas — and we send him to Japan and China to encourage the marketing of Alberta's products. But I want to tell you that if we jeopardize the operations of the two key facets of our postsecondary education system, not to men­ tion all the other elements facing the squeeze as well, then these trade missions will be of small value. A first-class edu­ cational system — which we have — being maintained and improved is going to be the key to economic recovery in this province over the long term.

In his rather persuasive, friendly way, the minister can put the case as nicely as he does, but it doesn't alter the fact that there are real fiscal, budgetary prob­ lems being faced by postsecondary institutions in Alberta. Mr. Chairman, I want to deal with another item. Because of these budget decisions, first of all, we have an increase in the entrance requirements, plus the newly suggested figure at the University of Alberta that will presently register on a 72 percent average and up.

The fact of the matter is that through our system of scholarships, funded in large part by the heritage trust fund — and I was one of the members who supported the scholarship plan in the trust fund committee and in the Legislative Assembly — we have scholarship programs for students who are excellent, whether they are athletically excel­ lent or excellent in academic terms. As the minister well knows, the fact of the matter is that we have a large number of com­ petent people who don't quite meet scholarship standards.

It's this reservoir of people that I think have their opportunity at least compromised at the moment as a result of this budget. The minister says that they can go to other institutions. That is sometimes true, but it's not always true. It's a rather difficult proposition for someone from a low-income family in central Calgary, for example, to pick up and go to the Grande Prairie college. It's a rather challenging thought to even undertake it. It may not be for some of us who travel extensively in the province.

We come from a different kind of family milieu, where we have offspring who can go to a college or an insti­ tution wherever. Last year after finishing grade 12 my daughter went to Paris and studied there. That's very nice, but it's not something . . . [interjection] Someone across the way gets a little excited; the Member for Edmonton Belmont I guess. I'm quite proud of the fact that she went to study French. I think we should all study French. MR. MARTIN: He's still trying to learn English. MR.

NOTLEY: You know, if the member learns it, he might even be a candidate for the federal Conservative leadership someday; that is, if they want to commit total political suicide. I'll get back to the central point, Mr. Chairman. Certainly the hon. Member for Edmonton Belmont is not central to the point or part of the central point. The issue is: what do we do to provide opportunities for those students who are now going to find themselves just on the outside because of the new quotas?

The more we move into a quota system, de facto or otherwise, the less accessible the postsecondary education system is to young Albertans. The less accessible it is, the greater problem we have in terms of facing the future. My colleague will go into the estimates in a good deal greater detail than I have, but at this stage I want to say to members of the committee that one of the areas that it seems to me has to not only keep pace but in fact keep pace with the soaring

354 ALBERTA HANSARD April 9, 1984 enrollment is the Department of Advanced Education. We all know that ministers win some and lose some when they go before that ornery old priorities committee of cabinet, but by George, there are things we can cut back on so we have more slack, more flexibility in the areas that are really needed in this economy. One of the most important is the Department of Advanced Education. MR. COOK: First of all, Mr. Chairman, if I could, I'd just like to make some general remarks that relate to the universities' operating and capital budgets.

In travelling around the Pacific northwest, it's amazing to see how little construction and expansion is going on in universities in both Canada and the United States, with almost the single exception the province of Alberta. Mr. Chairman, I was at Washington State University a little while ago. At that university, tuition fees are now in the range of $2,000 per year U.S. for an in-state student, and that is not abnormal. It's becoming more and more difficult for students to attend universities in the United States.

With the federal Republican administration cutbacks on student aid, enrollments are dropping dramatically. They have the same sorts of prob­ lems we have in terms of an economy with high unemployment, and those students are not able to do anything. They can't go to school because their parents can't afford the tuition fees or to support them, and there is no assistance there. Alberta stands in marked contrast to the experience of uni­ versities in the United States.

It's amazing for me to walk around the University of Alberta campus or the University of Calgary campus and see new construction, to see construction going on at Red Deer College and at the University of Leth­ bridge. I think the minister deserves congratulations for having gone through the priorities committee of cabinet and wrestled another $66 million in capital for the province's advanced edu­ cation system. Mr. Chairman, a lot of students and parents of prospective students in my constituency are worried about the University of Alberta making noises about quotas.

I wonder if I could ask the Minister of Advanced Education to outline briefly the issues, from the government's perspective, on the quota question at the University of Alberta. For example, I'd be interested in knowing what the enrollment prospects are for the university system next year. Mr.

Chairman, I've had a chance to visit a couple of depart­ ment chairmen at the University of Alberta in the last little while, and it's interesting to note that even though most of our citizens are expected to hold the line on pay — many of my constituents are taking cuts in pay or losing their jobs — there is a concept called merit pay at the University of Alberta. I wonder if the minister could discuss with the Assembly the effect of increasing the pay schedules of professors when the basic operating grants are reflecting a zero percent increase in line with the general economic conditions of the province.

It seems to me that if University of Alberta professors insist on getting increased salaries, then in effect they're eating their young. In effect they're cutting academic staff positions them­ selves — not the government but the faculty and administration are cutting — in order that the few may have increased salaries. I'd be interested in knowing the Minister of Advanced Edu­ cation's response to that point of view. Finally, Mr.

Chairman, on the operating side, I'm wondering what kinds of plans are being considered to handle the case of an application of a youngster from Edmonton Glengarry, Cards- ton, or Lethbridge East when he or she applies to the University of Alberta or the University of Calgary. There may not be space there, but there may be space at another institution. How would a student be referred to an institution so that he or she may be accepted someplace in the province? I know the province of Ontario, for example, has a central registry system.

A student applies to the department, not to the institution, then the department allocates the space on a prior­ ities basis. That seems to me to be an option we should really examine. If individual institutions are going to be ornery and inconsiderate of the needs of students in their home community, then perhaps the government should become more involved in the admissions procedure. I'd like a response on that. Mr. Chairman, I note with interest that there's a very sizable capital budget. I guess there would be two kinds of capital budgets at the University of Alberta.

One is certainly the com­ pletion of the business and commerce building. Would the minister be able to outline any other capital expenditures being contemplated at the University of Alberta? Mr. Chairman, my final questions relate to alternatives to try to handle increased enrollments on a temporary basis. If we have a temporary surge in enrollments, would the minister encourage the University of Alberta or the University of Calgary to open a downtown campus, for example? There are a lot of large buildings sitting vacant in the downtown core.

Rather than building large buildings at the University of Alberta or the University of Calgary to handle what might only be a temporary enrollment increase, could we take advantage of some of that extra space downtown to handle adult or continuing education or even some departments? Could we increase the capacity of institutions here in Edmonton like Concordia Col­ lege, or could we ask Grant MacEwan college to expand their university transfer program? We might even consider some capital there so they could have extra space. The final area I'd be interested in, Mr.

Chairman, is could the minister reflect on the importance of research and devel­ opment in an overall economic strategy? What kinds of oppor­ tunities do we have available to try to increase the number of research projects and the quality of research being done at our universities in the province? For example, there seems to be a shortage of space available for research projects in agriculture. Is there a need to consider something like research lab space expansions? On

summary, Mr. Chairman, I think the minister has done a tremendous job in making education accessible by increasing the student loans program and the remission of student loans program, especially in a time of high student unemployment. That's very laudable. I think the increases in capital and con­ struction in advanced ed. are laudable. I hope we can find some way to make the admission system a little more efficient so that students from wherever they are in the province have access to the very fine and high quality institutions right across the province. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. ANDERSON: Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to make a few brief comments and then ask the minister a few questions on his responsibilities. First of all, like the member who has just spoken, I might indicate that I think it's an excellent omen for the educational institutions of the province that we have not had to cut back on expenditures this year despite the pressure to do so resulting from the economic circumstance the country now finds itself in.

I also feel that perhaps the most positive thing the government has done in this period of unemployment with respect to the area of postsecondary education is with regard to student finance. I appreciate the dollars that were put into that. I believe they're essential, and I congratulate the minister on moving in that direction. I think it's always crucial that

April 9, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 355 we're sensitive to periods when students are unable to obtain dollars that they require during summer months in order to go on with their career possibilities through education. The government has done that, the minister has moved in that direc­ tion, and that's to be lauded. As well in terms of general planning, I believe things have gone fairly well. I suppose the first of my questions to the minister would be with respect to that.

I may be premature in this, but with the government's new economic strategy evolv­ ing, being further refined, could the minister indicate if there is any plan to encourage postsecondary educational institutions to tie into that strategy? If so, is he in a position today to give us any kind of specifics as to what that direction might be? I'd also quite specifically like to most heartily thank the minister and indeed the Minister of Federal and Intergovern­ mental Affairs, the former minister of the department, for the $60 million expansion of Mount Royal College. A while ago the hon.

Leader of the Opposition spoke about the need for expansion during this period of time when we had resources available in the community to do that at a reasonable rate. We have the perfect example of that in my constituency in Calgary. That $60 million expansion will provide very necessary space for what has been a growing number of students in a number of areas at Mount Royal College and in addition will provide a boon to the economy of Calgary, in particular the construction industry, which has faced difficulties in the last couple of years. I appreciate that no end, and the college does as well.

I had the privilege of representing the minister at the ground-breaking for that expansion not too long ago and will again have the privilege of being at the ground-breaking cer­ emony for the student affairs building this Wednesday. I look forward to that. With respect to Mount Royal, however, I think the board there has made a very good case regarding operational dollars.

While we are in a period of restraint and Mount Royal College, like every other college and university in the province, should be required to take a look at their financial situation and deal with that in the most expedient way, there's been a case made to me which would conclude that Mount Royal is funded in an operational sense to a lesser degree than are other colleges in the province, given the kinds of responsibilities they have, particularly with respect to the details that are going to be required to deal with the expansion and therefore the expansion of programs.

I would like the minister to indicate if he has seen that assessment and if he feels as well that they have a good case? If so, is that going to be reflected in this budget; if not, will he seriously consider doing that for the 1985-86 calendar year? In terms of other issues, Mr. Chairman, I would be inter­ ested, as I think all Calgary members would be, in an update on the situation at the Alberta College of Art. I have some constituents who are still asking what is happening at that level.

If we're not going to move toward an independent college in the immediate future, is the minister giving some consideration to halfway points, such as a diploma at least from a college of art and a little bit more autonomy, if not total autonomy at this point in time. Mr. Chairman, I think those are essentially the questions I have. None of them should be seen to take away from the general statement that I think we're moving in an extremely positive direction with respect to postsecondary education in the province.

I think we've responded well to the economic circumstances which many students are faced with, and I do congratulate the minister on those. Just one last point. I also note that in his own way the minister has made a small move toward trying to deal with the unemployment situation by finally hiring an executive assistant who I notice in the gallery. I congratulate him on that selection. MR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Chairman, I too would like to congrat­ ulate the Minister of Advanced Education for co-ordinating his department so well on behalf of students in this province and indeed the future of this province.

I sincerely thank him for all his endeavours on behalf of students throughout Alberta. I am also pleased to see how the minister, through his endeavours, has kept tuition fees down in this province. Of course through the extensive grants, remissions, and loans, his department has assisted thousands of students throughout Alberta. Mr. Chairman, I have three specific questions for the min­ ister. The first deals with the Northern Alberta Institute of Technology. I have heard from some staff members at NAIT that potential students are being turned away, even turned away in droves.

I have heard the statistic that only one of four students is being accepted into some of the programs at NAIT, for example the computer programs. I would like the minister to comment on this area if he could: if he feels the funds that have been estimated for '84-85 are sufficient. I note that $55,615,000 has been estimated for NAIT's operating budget and over $5.5 million for capital expenditures. Mr. Chairman, my second question deals with the University of Alberta as well and the concerns that many Edmonton Kings- way residents have expressed to me.

There has been conflicting information coming from the president of the university, from the president of the student's council, and from the president of the Grad. Student's Association of the University of Alberta as to whether sufficient funds are indeed being granted to the University of Alberta. I think clarification is required here. Like the Member for Edmonton Glengarry, I would be inter­ ested in your comments there. Kingsway residents have called and called with concern, and they are very frustrated about the possibility of students being turned away.

Indeed parents are concerned about their children being turned away from the university. In other words, I suppose the bottom line: does the minister believe the funds estimated will permit all students with the prescribed 65 percent average to be accepted at the University of Alberta? The min­ ister and the public know my feelings about the university changing the rules of the game after the game has begun, and this has caused extreme frustration and consternation on behalf of many students. The third question deals with a specific figure in the estimates dealing with new course development.

It indicates $1.5 million has been allocated in this area. Could the minister comment on how this money is distributed and also give some examples of what these funds are used for? I am interested in knowing, and I know my constituents have ideas for new courses. I am just wondering if that fund is sufficient for a changing Alberta and a changing Canada. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. MUSGROVE: Mr. Chairman, I certainly am appreciative of the budget in general. It's good to see student loans being increased and, in particular, some addition to our capital costs. Mr.

Chairman, I would like to ask a couple of questions about further ed. in my constituency, but first I would like to make a few comments about our facilities. In Bow Valley we have the Brooks campus of the Medicine Hat junior college. It is an arm of Medicine Hat College, and it was officially opened on September 28, 1979. It is housed in the old hospital building, which was renovated. It belongs to the town of Brooks. It is rented to the Brooks college, and the interest on the capital debt is picked up partly by the town and partly by

356 ALBERTA HANSARD April 9, 1984 the county. It draws students from a population of approxi­ mately 20,000. After the college went through renovations and the initial program, in the fall of 1980 it had the equivalent of 40 full- time students. In the fall of 1983, it had the equivalent of 140 full-time students. That was up 350 percent in three years. It is expected that by the end of the 1980s they will have 250 full-time students, up another 250 percent from the present time. In the present building they are now at capacity for class­ room space only. They have no room for a lab or any shop facilities.

A welder for a farm welding course is housed in a trailer that is moved on-site when the course is offered. They do not have a lunchroom for the students. They are now offering university transfers, college prepa­ ration, secretarial courses, and business administration. They also offer short courses in electronics for people that work in the oil patch. They have a program for functionally illiterate adults. They offer welding, computer, business, and agricul­ tural courses. They have an arrangement to have some transfer courses with Olds College next year.

For instance, they are looking at the first-year agricultural science course so they can take the first year in Brooks. They also offer some summer courses in high school deficiencies. Some time after the Brooks college was opened, it became apparent that there was a lot of interest and need for a building. Harry Viener, the former mayor of Medicine Hat, donated 80 acres of land for a college site. It was appraised in 1981 at a value of $1.15 million. It was annexed to the town. There is now some question in some people's minds as to whether that was overappraised.

It is bordered on the south by the provincial horticulture station, on the west by the town of Brooks, and on the north by Highway No. 1, and a person would wonder whether it was in fact overappraised. Of course land values have dropped some since 1981, and this would have an effect on that property. Mr. Chairman, we have been hopeful that in the future we will get a building started to house the Brooks campus. Because of the expanding number of students and the extra courses that are being asked for and considered, I wonder if there is any money in the budget for construction on Brooks campus this year.

I see that Medicine Hat College has a capital increase of 9.1 percent, and there is an operating increase of 5.6 percent. If Brooks is not being considered in this budget, I would ask if we could find out where it is on the priority list for construc­ tion in the future. MR. WEISS: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to make a few remarks and ask the minister to address three questions as well.

I should indicate that as the representative for Lac La Biche- Fort McMurray, I am very fortunate to have some of the finest postsecondary facilities in all of northern Alberta, particularly Keyano College and the new facility under construction in Lac La Biche, the Alberta vocational centre. As well, a new stu­ dent's residence is under construction, and we are very pleased.

Without making it a request at this particular time, I would like to encourage the minister and make him more aware of the need, though, to expand to outlying regions — in particular the area of Fort Chipewyan — those facilities with regard to the programs that they are administrating. That particular com­ munity is isolated, as the minister is well aware. The need for training members of that community is very essential. Of course if we are to think of an employment future in the way of skilled personnel and the like, we must try to do something to address those issues.

It is very difficult for those people to try to come out from the community. There is no road, no access other than air and water in the summer of course. That is time and costly. Those people are just not able to adapt to coming and spending six or eight weeks in a southern community. So I'd like to encourage the expansion of the Keyano facilities into that particular area. I'd like the minister to address three questions, Mr. Chair­ man. One pertains to the endowment fund. I notice there is some $8 million being set aside in the budget for that particular expenditure.

I would like to ask the minister to see if he can't speed up the process whereby some of the rural communities could create extra funding and extra projects under that pro­ gram, specifically for the reason that there are no losers in that program. They're all winners, especially if we can solicit and gain support from members of the community in both business and private sectors whereby the funds are matched on a 100 percent basis.

If those funds are coming within the community, specifically when we talk about the period of adjustment right now when construction costs will be less and the employment opportunities are there for many, I would certainly suggest that we try to accelerate some of the programs that are on hold. The second item, Mr. Chairman, is with regard to Vote 3.0.4 in the element details whereby the item refers to remission of loans of some $17 million, up 240 percent from the previous year. I'm concerned, and I'm sure other members of the Assem­ bly are, with that particular item.

We'd like the minister to clarify the $17 million. Are we saying that on one hand we encourage students to come in and seek loans, grants, and assistance and, on the other hand, we don't say anything about repayment? I think citizens of all types and from all walks of life, especially the younger age bracket, should be encouraged to accept the responsibilities and challenges that lie before them and, if there are funds that have to be paid back, they would endeavour to do so. The third item, Mr. Chairman, pertains to the student bursary program.

As the minister is aware, there is some $600,000 set aside in this program through the Northern Alberta Develop­ ment Council. We're very grateful for that funding and to be able to work with the minister's department in administrating the funds, but I would appreciate the minister specifically addressing the allocation of those funds. As the minister is aware, we have requested some split in the area of the funding. We would like to have a portion of those funds available to try to attract and develop special need areas in the north, par­ ticularly in the area of medical practitioners and dental persons.

Where some of the rural communities are unable to bring these people in, we'd like to try to use a portion of those funds to come up with programs whereby we can help and assist rural and remote communities where these everyday . . . I should put it this way, Mr. Chairman. These items are taken for granted in most communities, but in some of the remote areas, they're a luxury, and we certainly do need that assistance. If the minister would address those three specific areas with regard to the endowment fund, remission of loans, the elements of 3.0.4 in the votes procedures, and the student bursary selec­ tion.

I would be most appreciative of the response. Thank you., Mr. Chairman. MRS. CRIPPS: Mr. Chairman, I just want to spend a few minutes discussing this very important department. I believe the current economic times make it imperative that all busi­ nesses and institutions reassess their operations with a priority goal being efficiency and maximizing. In this case, it's the educational opportunities made available by the institution. I've recently heard some comments that would suggest the government has reduced funding to the universities, and that's causing some concerns in enrollment.

The fact is that that's simply not true. For instance, I notice the operating funding is

April 9, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 357 up by 4.7 percent. Maybe the onus should be on the university and the senate to ensure that they re-evaluate the operation of their facility and ensure effectiveness. A concern I've had raised with me a number of times, by both students and faculty, is that the wages of professors are determined by the number of research articles and papers they publish. I recognize that research is a very, very important component of any university, Mr. Chairman, but surely the training of our most brilliant young people has to be a crucial responsibility of the university.

Certainly it should be just as necessary to increase the salaries of those people who are effec­ tive and proficient at teaching as it is the people who publish papers. In the future, the young people who are trained are as important — if not more so — as a research paper. I think it's really important that that aspect of salaries and wages of the university teachers and professors be evaluated. A number of constituents have raised the issue of the stu­ dents' ability to understand the language of instruction.

In fact I've had a couple of students come to me who have actually quit university because they couldn't understand the majority of their instruction because of dialects or inability to speak the English language effectively. Surely, Mr. Chairman, the first credential of an instructor at the university should be the ability to speak the language of instruction, not just adequately but fluently and understandably. And I underline "understanda­ bly".

An area the Member for Edmonton Belmont raised — not Edmonton Belmont; I photocopied it here — on March 21, was how can we alleviate the concerns of the students on enrollment restrictions that are presently being put in place? Mr. Chairman, I guess that aspect concerns me more than any other in the university. I really believe we have a tremendous facility that is being wasted a good deal of the time. I think it's important that we maximize the utilization of that university by making the most efficient use of the students' time, the educators' time, and the excellent facilities we have.

Right now there are stu­ dents taking one or two courses a day, and other days they take three or four courses. Quite frankly, it's a waste of my tax­ payers' money, the students' money, and the parents' money. It's an absolute waste of time. I've come to the conclusion that the technical schools make far better use of a student's time and the public's taxes than do the universities. [interjections] That's true. The NAIT stu­ dents I've been familiar with work from eight in the morning till five at night, and they do homework afterwards.

A number of university students I've talked to recently have a week in the fall and a week in the spring for reading. They finished courses in the middle of December and didn't go back until about January 8 or 9, and still had their places of residence rented because you have to keep them. Quite frankly, I think we really have to evaluate the utilization of our university campuses. I think they should be in constant use from early morning until late at night. We could accommodate far more students than we are with today's programming and timeta­ bling.

I'd like to give the minister a bouquet for continued support of the consortium principle. We have one in Drayton Valley, and I believe it's very important to offer as many educational opportunities as possible in all corners of this vast province. Mr. Speaker, another major concern regarding young people is unemployment. I realize this isn't the responsibility of the Minister of Advanced Education, but it is very difficult for someone with no experience to obtain a job. Quite frankly, I worry that unemployment may become a way of life in some cases.

I commend the Minister of Education for the student loans, but feel that STEP is equally important to university students and would be an offset for the student loans. Certainly the moneys earned by students during the summer in some of the excellent student employment programs we have would be funds that would not be borrowed from the Students Finance Board in the winter. I talked to some university students about this aspect, and they felt that it was extremely important for students to participate in work experience projects in the sum­ mer and not rely totally on student loans for their funding. Thank you.

MR. GOGO: Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I couldn't help but observe that the Leader of the Official Oppo­ sition felt the Advanced Education priorities were wrong and that something else should give in order that they may have more. He didn't specify whether it should be roads in Spirit River-Fairview; he didn't specify anything. He simply said that more funds should be given. That may be, but I draw members' attention to the fact that it's $871 million for the ten colleges, the universities, NAIT, and SAIT.

Although I'm not aware of what other jurisdictions are doing, I would think that Alberta is probably amongst the highest in the country. [Mr. Appleby in the Chair] Secondly, the Leader of the Opposition made reference to student loans. I'd simply draw the member's attention to the fact that Bill 1, introduced by the Premier, is an Advanced Education and Manpower Bill increasing student loans to $150 million. Surely that is a commitment by the government with regard to making advanced education accessible for Albertans. It has been said in the past, Mr.

Chairman, that what's good for the U of A is good for Alberta. I suppose if one were to look at the front bench of the government, one could see that to a very great degree members of cabinet are members of the alumni of the U of A, but I don't think that's really been true when you look at the growth of the other universities in the province. Certainly the commitment of the government in '79 with regard to Athabasca U was a positive one, albeit there are many members of that faculty who still resist moving; so be it.

But I vividly recall the previous Minister of Advanced Edu­ cation, the Member for Medicine Hat, making a very clear and strong case that the preference of Albertans was that that is where that institution should be. Mr. Chairman, I don't think sufficient mention has been made of the Heritage Savings Trust Fund scholarships. Speak­ ing as the Member for Lethbridge West and, along with the hon. minister, for Lethbridge, I think of the number of schol­ arships that have gone to the citizens of our community.

With­ out the Heritage Savings Trust Fund, it simply wouldn't have been possible for many of these young people to pursue. I think we should be blowing our horn more about the Heritage Savings Trust Fund scholarship program. Mr. Chairman, I want to comment — and maybe when the minister responds he will point this out. My understanding was that about 90 cents of each dollar in the advanced educational system was provided by the taxpayers of Alberta, albeit with some funding assistance by the central government. To my knowledge, about 10 cents on the dollar is assumed by the students; I think the goal is 12.

Surely in this day and age that is not asking too much. I would like the minister to respond as to what the exact figure is, and indeed whether that is ade­ quate in his view. On a more parochial note, Mr. Chairman, the University of Lethbridge is in the riding I represent. Indeed we're very grateful for the attitude the government has displayed in a very substantive way with the increased enrollment of students at

358 ALBERTA HANSARD April 9, 1984 that institution. Recently the minister announced assistance, with funding from the endowment fund, to enable the Univer­ sity of Lethbridge to acquire an aquatic centre. That is obviously welcomed by ever so many people in southern Alberta, not just the city of Lethbridge. Mr. Chairman, I ask the minister if he would respond as to where the student union building request is. The student union body at Lethbridge has for several years requested some assist­ ance in establishing the student union facility.

We're indebted to the department and to the minister for ensuring that the bachelor's program with regard to social work, held for so many years at the University of Calgary, is now being conducted at the U of L. When one considers that some 20 to 25 students had to leave home to go to Calgary to take that program, it is in no small way of great value to them. In addition, we've seen graduate programs start at the U of L. We have the school of business management, and I think the graduates from the program are going to be voices we continue to hear as they progress through life. Mr.

Chairman, there is a certain delicacy with regard to the college program and, being the Member for Lethbridge East, the minister is not in a position to blow his own horn for what he's done for Lethbridge Community College. It's the oldest college in the province, notwithstanding the Olds Agricultural College — which, by the way, has the second smallest budget of all the colleges, and I hope members address that question sometime today. Being the oldest college, I think Lethbridge Community College has shown remarkable growth.

One only has to look at page 3 of the elements book to see the very substantive $8.5 million capital assistance to Lethbridge Com­ munity College this year. I think it's responding to the needs of all Alberta, not just the college at Lethbridge. Mr. Chairman, I have several questions I want to put to the minister that he could hopefully respond to at the end of this discussion. The first one: we hear so much talk of the need for a police academy or a police college in the province of Alberta, instead of being scattered through a couple of the colleges.

It seems to me that as Alberta has grown and continues to grow, albeit not as rapidly, perhaps there is a need for a police acad­ emy. Could that be considered and, if it could be considered, what better place than the place where they turn out excellent police constables now; that is, Lethbridge Community College? Second question, Mr. Chairman. We hear so much discus­ sion about runaway costs of the hospital and medical care system.

I think members of the Assembly would find it inter­ esting if the minister would comment on the schools of med­ icine, of which we have two in the province, and the school of dentistry. I for one would be very interested in what a four- year course in medicine costs. I've heard it costs $300,000 to $400,000.

If that's factual, perhaps there would be merit in our developing some kind of program through the College of Physicians and Surgeons to ensure that adequate medical treat- ment is distributed throughout Alberta on the basis of a for­ giveness of the cost at the rate, we'll say, of $100,000 to $200,000 a year. Mr. Chairman, the Member for Edmonton Glengarry and other members have raised with regard to student enrollment.

Id be interested in knowing if our universities, although they're autonomous and self-regulating, subject to the Universities Act, have a procedure whereby if a youngster from Foremost, for example, goes to the U of A and three months later drops out — why did he or she drop out? Is it because of the size of the classes? Is it because of the change in life-style? I'd be inter­ ested in knowing if the universities have an exit procedure. It seems to me that if a youngster was sincere enough to pay money and enroll, and then drops out several months later, one should know the reason.

Although I don't have the evidence, I would think that the number who drop out of the U of A alone in any given year would more than fill the University of Lethbridge. So I would like to know if the minister is aware of any exit procedure for students who give up at our institu­ tions. Finally, Mr. Chairman, reference was made today in ques­ tion period with regard to the Canadian long-baseline array, which would be a first in the world. I think it's critical that Alberta capture this. Based on the technical evidence, the ideal place to have it would be on the campus at the U of L.

I would think that half a billion or a billion dollars to Calgary for the Olympics should normally satisfy most people. [interjections] But apparently it's not going to. I do think that this is one time, Mr. Chairman, when might is not right. I would think a little common sense, understanding, and mutual concern for the pol­ icy of government in diversification and decentralization should hold a little water. MR. THOMPSON: Right on. MR. GOGO: I certainly encourage . . . DR. CARTER: Mr. Chairman, we'd like to have it at Medicine Hat, so we could put it on the Cypress Hills. MR. KOWALSKI: Keep going, John. MR.

GOGO: Next to Lethbridge I would endorse the site of Medicine Hat, and the hon. Member for Medicine Hat has publicly endorsed Lethbridge. It just shows how clear, honest, fair-minded, and forthright he is in his views. Mr. Chairman, I simply want to conclude on this note. I have now served two and a half terms in this Assembly, and I think we've been extremely fortunate to have ministers of the Crown who have dedicated a great part of their time to seeing Advanced Education and Manpower in this province live up to the standards set by the previous minister.

I for one strongly endorse the budget for $871 million put before the House today. Thank you. MR. STILES: Mr. Chairman, I have been waiting some time to have the opportunity to make these remarks. I hope I won't unduly bore members of the committee with some matters that perhaps have been mentioned before in a previous debate, but I think they're important enough that they need to be mentioned again. My particular concern is with agricultural education. I appre­ ciate that the minister's department covers a much wider scope.

But unfortunately my particular concern is with that, and I'm going to restrict my remarks to that area. Before I mention the concerns I have with agricultural edu­ cation, I think I should mention a few things about agriculture in this province. Although we perhaps pay lip service to agri­ culture and acknowledge that agriculture is one of the primary industries in this province, that together with the oil and gas industry it forms the backbone of our economy. I believe that too often we say that and then forget about agriculture and go on to other things that may seem a little more dramatic.

Agriculture no longer employs a large proportion of our population in primary production. That's a factor of the degree to which primary producers have substantially increased their productivity over the years, to the point where relatively very few people are employed on the farm. However, that doesn't mean to say that agriculture doesn't have a substantial impact on employment in the province. I think it's important to simply

April 9, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 359 go through some of the aspects of agriculture and how they impact on our economy. In the 100 years that agricultural development has been going on in Alberta, 21 million acres of raw land have been converted into productive farmland. We've developed over 1 million of that into the irrigated farmland of the province. It was agriculture and the development of our farming areas, of course, that began the development of transportation, by way of railways to begin with to bring settlers in, and to transport our products.

Our road and highway system to a large extent owes its development to the simultaneous development of agri­ culture in the province. Agriculture is consumption, and in that area I believe many people are uninformed as to the importance of agriculture to our economy. Interest payments alone of $500 million a year in the 1980s; in 1981 Alberta farms consumed $250 million of commercial fertilizers, $250 million worth of fuel to power the machinery used in primary production, and another $250 mil­ lion in repairing and maintaining their equipment.

In terms of capital expenditure on equipment, there's over $4 billion worth of equipment on Alberta farms. Production of course is an area we don't need to say too much about: $1.75 billion worth of livestock produced in 1981; field crop production in excess of $2 billion; processed food, in excess of $3 billion; interestingly, in terms of employment in primary production, 12,000 employ­ ees, not including family members, for wages of $125 million. These figures are significant in our economy. I'm sure the Provincial Treasurer is aware of them, but unfortunately many people are not.

One of the incredible features of agriculture in this province is that for every $1 million of purchases, approximately 100 jobs are created and involved. For each farmer involved in primary production, nine employees are involved in handling and processing that production. I should mention in addition that agriculture is a renewable resource. But while it may be a renewable resource, it is not an endless resource. We went through the 1930s, and most of us are aware of the soil erosion and problems that developed during that period of drought in this province.

Many of us have become very much aware that if we don't look after the land and don't look after this industry, it will not be renewable forever. I don't want to go on flogging the agricultural side of this. I'm sure there are many others who want to get into this debate. I would now like to look at where we go in the future. Agri­ culture in this province has the potential to expand to at least double the land area that is now under production. We have researchers developing new techniques, new strains, improving our production and our productivity. Incidentally, I should men­ tion another interesting statistic.

In the years in which farmers have been involved in producing in Alberta, they have increased their productivity 12 times the original productivity of an indi­ vidual farmer. That's still going on. It's the result of research; it's the result of the innovators, the creative people who come up with the new ideas for machinery, for handling various aspects of agricultural production. That's going on all the time. We're coming up with fuel substitutes. The research that's going on at the university level is transferred from the researcher to the hands of the student through the educational process.

In terms of agricultural education, we have the University of Alberta and the agricultural colleges. The department of agriculture at the University of Alberta is producing the training of degreed professionals, researchers. The colleges are respon­ sible for training — and it's the hands-on method of training — the actual participants in the agricultural industry, both the primary producers and those in the myriad of processing and handling industries that interface with primary producers.

There's a third element to agricultural education, and that is carried on by the Department of Agriculture through its extension program. That's another matter that I'd like to come back to in a moment. If we're going to move into the future, with the technological changes that are taking place, education is going to be key not only to the training of the young people that we want to bring into agriculture but also to the way in which we handle and deal with the production coming from our farms.

Agricultural education in Alberta has been in a period of calm for a number of years, in particular the college that is located in the constituency I represent, Olds College. I'd like to extend my appreciation to both the hon. Leader of the Oppo­ sition for his assistance in mentioning the difficulties experi­ enced recently by Olds College and to the hon. Member for Lethbridge West, who also had some kind remarks about the college.

In the past three years— from 1980-81, when its enrollment was approximately 515 students, to the present year, when it's over 750 students — Olds College has experienced a 50 percent increase in enrollment. I should mention that that enrollment figure does not accurately illustrate the number of people who are looking to colleges like Olds College for an education. In 1983-84, there were 1,207 applications. Admittedly, 244 of these applicants changed their minds or attended a different college. Five hundred and fifteen students were accepted out of that 1,207; 448 were turned away.

In other words, for every two students looking to enroll at Olds College, only one could be accepted. Incidentally, that's the first year enrollment; a lot of the programs at Olds College are two years, as they are at many of our colleges. Naturally, with a two-year cycle, we're only looking at roughly two-thirds of the students enrolling at any one time. The enrollment for the coming year, which will be closing in September 1984, is already at 1,048 applications, and the college anticipates being able to accommodate approx­ imately 550.

We're still a long way from the cut-off point for these registrations in September. That's an indication of the sort of demand we're talking about at our colleges, in particular at Olds College. Before I go any further with respect to Olds College, while we're at it I should mention some of the history of our agri­ cultural colleges. We started out in the early 1900s with five agricultural colleges in the province of Alberta. Admittedly, there were a lot more people involved in primary production on a per capita basis at that time than there are today.

As I said, the transfer of employment from primary production to processing and handling has been significant. In fact we have more people involved today than we did in the early 1900s. Of the five agricultural schools that were established in the early years of this century in this province, two of the three remaining colleges have now expanded or blended their agri­ cultural mandate with a regional trades and technology mandate and, accordingly, are not exclusively an agricultural college any longer but have moved into the realm of combining com­ munity college with the agricultural college aspects.

Only one of those original five agricultural colleges remains having a focus on providing agricultural education, and that is Olds College. Olds College's facilities have not had any upgrading in the last 10 years— with the exception of one year, which I'll come to in a moment — in terms of new facilities to accommodate the expanded enrollment. Until three years ago, that wasn't unreasonable. There had been expansion in the '60s, and the college enjoys some fine facilities in terms of the front end of

360 ALBERTA HANSARD April 9, 1984 the college. When you drive by Olds College, you might be fooled by the appearance of the relatively modem buildings at the front of the campus into believing that this is a very modern, up-to-date campus with plenty of facilities and accommodation for all the students who go there. I say you would be fooled, because that is exactly the case; you would not be seeing the reality.

Olds College, although it's had an increase of over 50 percent in enrollment, in the last 10 years has had no increase in classroom space, no increase in laboratory space, no increase in library space, no increase in residence space, and no increase in its student activity area. In a period when other colleges, and particularly our trades and technology colleges, were receiving substantial capital dollars, Olds College was some- how ignored. It is regrettable. I'd like to emphasize that with some figures.

Over a six year period up to the present time, when the average investment at other colleges across the province, including the other two colleges having if not a total focus at least a partial focus in agriculture, were receiving somewhere in the area of $26 mil­ lion on average, Olds College received $6 million in total. The problem Olds College experienced was that while the trades and technologies were being emphasized in the '70s, for some reason agriculture was not. [Mr.

Purdy in the Chair] The exception to that, the matter I wanted to mention from last year, was the $2 million received by Olds College for farmstead upgrading. The farmstead upgrading that was carried out was included in a development program Olds College had drafted for an overall development of the college. Admittedly, the farmstead buildings that were the concern of that upgrading certainly had priority in terms of the farmstead and its needs.

The $2 million was spent to provide the college farm with new livestock facilities in the area of swine and sheep, to do some preliminary work upgrading their utilities, and to do some site work. Certainly it was very much appreciated by the college, but it did not address the item that was the college's primary focus and its highest priority. That was the learning resource centre, which has been the number one priority for the college for the last 12 years.

Here we're talking about something that goes back to an agreement that was developed by the town of Olds and the college 12 years ago to combine their libraries. It's still the top priority at Olds College. I would like you to consider a college, catering to 750 students, in which the library is housed in a converted dairy barn and has been there for a number of years. The library has space for approximately 24.000 volumes of the 48,000 volumes they would like to make available to their students.

It has space for approximately 60 students in terms of study area, when they should be providing space for over 200 students. It has no space for any incorporation of modern technology in terms of communication equipment. And this is a situation that has been going on for five years or more. It had been hoped that the dollars for the farmstead upgrading were preliminary to recognition of the needs of this particular college that is intended to be the primary focus of agricultural education in this province.

It was hoped that that $2 million of a year ago was the beginning of the recognition of the needs of this college in the future, and that at last we were starting to address those needs. Yet in the estimates this year, unfor­ tunately we see that Olds College is not to be included in any capital development program. Notwithstanding the need and high priority of this particular facility at the college, there is no capital funding provided for even a beginning on the learning resource centre.

That brings me to the last aspect I want to cover today, and that is to ask the minister where we are going with agricultural education in this province. I'd like to ask the minister if any programs have yet been developed for integrating planning for agricultural education with the other departments that I think should be consulted, certainly Agriculture and Manpower.

Surely we have to address, since the reality of agricultural education, in particular when you expand agricultural education to the processing and handling aspects of the industry — cer­ tainly there has to be some integration within the government as to how we are going to deliver that education. Are we going to concentrate on an agricultural college? Are we going to spread the delivery of the program around to other colleges not related to agriculture? Are we going to have some integration between the colleges and the universities?

What plans are there, or has any thought been given to agricultural colleges providing the preliminary, basic education for students who would then go on to the University of Alberta department of agriculture to complete a degree in agriculture? I'm sure that's something that has been discussed before, but I'd like to know what is happening with it now. What is the relationship between the private and the public sector? As an example, there's a seed and grain program that has been developed at Olds College. The program would imme­ diately involve 100 new students.

The grain industry has been asking for this kind of program for several years. There is a substantial need in the grain industry for a training base for people who are going into seed cleaning plants and other aspects of the grain industry; yet we don't have it. It would accom­ modate 100 students a year, or at least there are 100 students a year who would be taking that type of program, but we haven't anywhere to deliver it.

Are we going to rely on the private sector to provide that training, or do we want to see our colleges provide that basic training so students and young people can move into employment with some training and not have to start out sweeping floors in the old way individuals were trained in a trade 50 years ago? I was on a tour of the college on Saturday, and I was very interested to note that there are a number of courses being offered at Olds College that directly relate to industry.

I think that's a question we have to answer: to what extent do we have a responsibility to provide the training for people moving into the agricultural infrastructure in the province? One of the areas I visited was the livestock processing course area, where they're teaching people the basics of the packing plant industry and meat processing, sausage making. Is that something we should be doing in an institution like Olds College, or should we be relying on industry to provide the education? In

summary, Mr. Chairman, I believe agricultural education has been overlooked. We naturally would like to ask why. But beyond that, I believe we'd like to know when we are going to address the problems that are so critical, particularly to the major college in our province delivering that type of education but also to agriculture in general. There's another question that is begged here, and that is the question of bringing the new technology to the thousands of farmers active in the industry in primary production. To what extent are we going to depend on our agricultural colleges to provide that function?

The Department of Agriculture has an extension service, and it is presently serving large numbers of farmers. But what kind of function could our agricultural col­ leges perform in that area also? To what extent are we going to involve industry in developing the kind of educational pro­ gram we want to offer? Are there any plans within the Depart­

April 9, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 361 ment of Advanced Education, for example, to set up discussions, an exchange of communications with regard to the degree to which we want the agricultural colleges or the Univer­ sity of Alberta to provide the training and the degree to which we want the industry to be involved in that process? For the future, I think we have to address those concerns. Mr. Chairman, I think we have to address those concerns now if we're going to continue to lead the world in production, in productivity, and in the quality of the agricultural product we produce in this province. MR. MARTIN: Mr.

Chairman, you will forgive me if I'm not quite as laudatory. I know the minister will forgive me if I'm not quite as laudatory in terms of what's happening in Advanced Education. Mr. Chairman, a couple of things obviously have happened. Over the last three or four years, when we put the things together, I think we've had a general deterioration. When I ask the minister in question period, the answer is compared to other provinces. I might add that other provinces have had Conserv­ ative governments that have been doing much the same thing, so that still does not impress me much.

One of the things we're having, and it comes back to the unemployment problem too, if we accept that in the city of Edmonton — I'm going to come to the U of A — there is a 15.1 percent unemployment rate, then we know and the minister well knows that the unemployment rate is much higher among the group that would ordinarily be going into some of the Advanced Education institutions. We don't know for sure what it is, but I would guess that at least one out of five individuals is unemployed at this particular time.

So what we find in terms of the high unemployment rate, many young people — and the minister knows that this started three or four years ago when people tended to start to go back to school because they weren't getting jobs. I mentioned to him last estimates that we could even see it at the high school level. More and more people about the age of 18 were attempt­ ing to get back into high school, because obviously there were no jobs. Before, they would go out and get jobs at $12 or $15. Those were no longer there. So they were beginning to see the crunch about three years ago.

I believe we've now seen it maximized at all the institutions. Now, Mr. Chairman . . . [interjection] The minister agrees. That's good. I hope he agrees with me all the way through. It seems to me that with this happening, we have to look at what is happening in Advanced Education. The fact is that I have some figures here, and I'd like to trade them with the minister because when I hear the minister talking he says to us there is no problem. If I recall, he says, well, if people can't get in the U of A, they can go to the U of L or the University of Calgary.

Besides the cost of that, the minister well knows that that's not very practical. If there are a lot of students from Edmonton going to Calgary or Lethbridge, he knows full well that they wouldn't be able to take them all. But let's take a look, if I may, before getting into the U of A say — I worry about this in terms of the social fabric of what we're doing.

For example, one of the things we find in that great Conservative mecca right now of Margaret Thatcher — and the minister is well aware of the problems that particular country is facing: recent marches and violence that's been involved there, the mass movement of punk rockers and stu­ dents and young people that have just given up. I'm not sug­ gesting we're into this in Alberta yet, but whether the government likes to hear it or not, if we continue mindless cutbacks where people can't go to school and can't be employed, we're going to create a fair amount of friction among young people.

And it's starting to happen. I'm not saying that there are easy answers here for the minister. There aren't easy answers. But I think we should recognize that rather than say to people that everything's great and wonderful here in Alberta, and we spend this and that, we should take a serious look at the problem. I'd like to go through just four institutions. Being an Edmonton MLA, I'll spend most of the time on the University of Alberta, but we do have some figures from the University of Calgary, NAIT, and AVC.

If we're wrong from the figures we're getting, I'm sure that the minister, when he stands up, will tell us where we're wrong. What I understand happened at the University of Alberta this last year is that enrollments increased some 9 percent overall. The full-time population at the U of A has increased, I believe, by some 5,000 in the last five years, bringing the full-time enrollment to 23,300 and the equivalent full-time population to 25,000. I believe the Univer­ sity of Alberta is now the second-largest university in Canada. We'll come to the quotas, and I know the minister wants to talk about the quotas.

Even if the quotas do come in — I believe the decision will be made next Friday — their estimation is still that there'll be a 6 percent enrollment increase. I know the minister disputes those figures, but they say 1,300 qualified first-year students will be turned away. We know that for the next year. 33 permanent academic and 50 nonacademic positions will be cut, and a hiring freeze is now in place. Currently at least seven academic positions are frozen and hence unfilled; 100 support staff were laid off last year.

Even with all of the above, my understanding is that the U of A is currently running an annual deficit of some $2 million. Mr. Chairman, when we go through — I'll ask some general questions; I'll come to specific ones when we go through the votes. In 1975, I believe, the Department of Advanced Edu­ cation suggested 21,000 to 24,000 as the range of how many students are at the U of A. I guess that range is no longer there. I would ask the minister the question: is there now a change in Advanced Ed's range? What's the ultimate number that he believes the U of A can take under the present budget?

Do we want that university to be 30,000, as is the case in some of the American ones? Where are we at there? What I would like to do, and I refer— I know the minister has probably seen this. What we have is the planning document of priorities, part of the U of A. I am sure he has seen it. What they do — I won't talk about the general numbers — is go through it department by department. Maybe he knows more than they do, but this is what they are saying, and I quote just briefly to begin with. It says that they have been trying to grapple with this over the last four or five years, since 1980 to '81.

They say that such devices as increasing

section sizes, reducing the offerings of high school equivalent courses, extending laboratory hours into the evening, expanding the number of computer terminals,