Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick Oral Questions Original by Hansard Office Translation by Debates Translation 1 November 30, 2021 CONTENTS COLLECTIVE BARGAINING Mr. Melanson Hon. Mr. Higgs Mr. Melanson Hon. Mr. Higgs Mr. Melanson Hon. Mr. Higgs Mr. Melanson Hon. Mr. Higgs Mr. Melanson Hon. Mr. Higgs CORONAVIRUS Mr. D’Amours Hon. Mrs. Shephard Mr. D’Amours Hon. Mrs. Shephard

Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick Oral Questions Original by Hansard Office Translation by Debates Translation 2 LOCAL GOVERNMENT Mr. K. Chiasson Hon. Mr. Allain Mr. K. Chiasson Hon. Mr. Allain Mr. LePage Hon. Mr. Allain Mr. LePage Hon. Mr. Allain WILDLIFE Mr. Coon Hon. Mr. Holland NB POWER Mr. Coon Hon. Mr. Holland LOCAL GOVERNMENT Mr. Austin Hon. Mr. Allain COLLECTIVE BARGAINING Mr. Melanson Hon. Mr. Higgs

Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick Oral Questions Original by Hansard Office Translation by Debates Translation 3 [Original] COLLECTIVE BARGAINING Mr. Melanson (Dieppe, Interim Opposition Leader, L): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Stabilizing health care was the theme of a government’s document that was tabled a couple of weeks ago. Last Friday, I asked the government whether there had been any negotiating sessions with our nurses and LPNs. If there is one thing that needs to be critically addressed, it is the shortage of nurses and LPNs in our system. The document about stabilizing health care does not address that.

I am going to ask the Premier a question. You said on the news last Friday that you were hoping to get this collective agreement resolved by Christmas. Have you scheduled a negotiating session with the Nurses’ Union for this week, to resolve this before Christmas? Hon. Mr. Higgs (Quispamsis, Premier, Minister responsible for Intergovernmental Affairs, PC): Mr. Speaker, thank you for the question. Yes, we want to get back with the Nurses’ Union to talk about the issues. But primarily, the issues are related to the workplace, what the conditions are in that regard and how we can improve on that.

We have an offer on the table—a revised offer—that the union has had for a few weeks now. I guess we are waiting for a response to that offer. We are willing to go back and talk about this at any point in time. But I think that part of it, as I have said here in the House many times, is that we need to find a new way to develop and work through to having a sustainable health care plan, because innovation is going to take more than just doing the same thing and hoping for the best.

We have seen the challenges recently about the demographics and looking forward in New Brunswick and the cost of health care and what that is going to mean. But that is not new. That is something that, certainly, Richard Saillant talked about years ago. It is interesting that it is not necessarily his focus now, but it used to be. That demographic is really changing. We need a health care system that is new and different. Mr. Speaker (Hon. Mr. Oliver): Time. Mr. Melanson (Dieppe, Interim Opposition Leader, L): You know, Mr.

Speaker, the Premier should stop talking about doing things differently and doing new things. Right now, do you know what the issues are? Our nurses and our LPNs are on stress leave. They are overworked. They cannot handle the level of hours that is being requested of them. They want to have a normal quality of life with their families. The Premier talks about new ways of doing things. They need to have a collective agreement. They need a contract.

To retain them, they need to have a collective agreement whereby their wages will be competitive and fair and their working conditions will minimize the level of stress they have to endure. They care about their patients. But they also need a collective agreement. There was a vote against on October 6—about two months ago. Premier, tell us when you are going to resolve this collective agreement.

Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick Oral Questions Original by Hansard Office Translation by Debates Translation 4 Hon. Mr. Higgs (Quispamsis, Premier, Minister responsible for Intergovernmental Affairs, PC): Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the issue around wage competitiveness and ensuring that we are fair and reasonable in relation to our Atlantic counterparts, and that is exactly what was proposed. That is exactly what was proposed for when we get to the table with the LPNs as well. We know that is important. It is necessary, and it is the right thing to do.

We also know that we must look at ways that we can complement our entire hospital system so that we can work together, we can jointly share capabilities, and we can provide the time off and the necessary schedules that work. Some nurses would say to me: No, we were not scheduled for 24 hours. There just was not anyone coming in after 12 hours to help us, so we had to work for 24. It does not matter—24 hours is just not acceptable. We have said this: Help us put in a system that actually works.

But it should work for both Vitalité and Horizon and work for both systems so that they complement each other in the delivery of service. That is the change that is going to be required in an innovative health care program and in the sustainable path forward that the minister is working on now. Thank you. Mr. Speaker (Hon. Mr. Oliver): Time. [Translation] Mr. Melanson (Dieppe, Interim Opposition Leader, L): Mr. Speaker, the Premier should start reading his briefing notes or actually having discussions with the New Brunswick Nurses’ Union.

It has been two months since these professionals voted against the last offer, and there have been no meetings for negotiations with the group since that time. This week, union members are voting on a potential strike mandate. Imagine what a mess another such strike mandate from nurses would cause, since this is what the Premier seems to want. The system is already in crisis. We already have a shortage of nurses. A number of people in this group are already on leave because of work-related illness. The Premier should tell us here today if he really wants to resolve the collective agreement situation.

When will the next negotiations take place with the union? [Original] Hon. Mr. Higgs (Quispamsis, Premier, Minister responsible for Intergovernmental Affairs, PC): Mr. Speaker, we finalized, essentially, 10 out of 11—we are working on the 11th—in relation to CUPE. The same refrain continues from the Leader of the Opposition. It is about innovation. It is about putting forward a path that is fair and reasonable for nurses and recognizing what they have been doing, previously and today, to help us through this pandemic. The idea that we have put in a fair and reasonable one is real.

We have put in a fair and reasonable offer. I do not know whether it is public or shared, but it does recognize

Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick Oral Questions Original by Hansard Office Translation by Debates Translation 5 competitiveness throughout the Atlantic region. That same thing will be part of the LPN program as well. There is no debate on what we are doing in that regard. It then comes down to asking this: How do we get better scheduling? How do we get better utilization of our personnel resources and physical resources? How do we ensure that we can actually bring back to our health care system a quality of life, which has not existed for many, many years? Needing more nurses is a big part of it.

There is no question about it. But finding better ways is a huge part of it as well. Mr. Speaker (Hon. Mr. Oliver): Time. Mr. Melanson (Dieppe, Interim Opposition Leader, L): Mr. Speaker, he seems to have all the solutions here this afternoon. Sit at the table, put them on the table, and get a collective agreement. Right now, because we do not have enough nurses… We do not have enough nurses. What is it, a shortage of almost 1 000 nurses in the system today? The ER at the Sackville Hospital is closed overnight, indefinitely.

The off-loading of patients brought to the ER by ambulance is three times higher this year compared to last year. Do you know why all of this is happening? We have a shortage of nurses. To be able to recruit some or all of them and to retain them, we need to have a decent, fair collective agreement. They do not have even that right now. It has been three years, and he still does not have a meeting scheduled to negotiate with them. When are you going to negotiate with them face-to-face? Hon. Mr. Higgs (Quispamsis, Premier, Minister responsible for Intergovernmental Affairs, PC): Mr.

Speaker, the one-trick pony continues. Just hire more, and it will get better. Well, every province is in that same bucket—every single province. If you look at our province and ask what our per capita needs are and how many people we have, whether they are doctors, nurses, or other health professionals, you will see that our numbers are not that bad. How do we find a better use of the facilities that we have and the people that we are working with? How do we listen to nurses to deliver a better service?

One thing we know for sure is that if we just try to fill vacancies and do the same thing that we have always done, our health care system will not meet the demands of the aging demographic that we are being warned about and are seeing every day. We know that for sure. If we do not find ways to improve the service that we deliver, ways to do it in a better manner, and ways to sustain it and get better at it, we will not fix health care. I am confident that the Minister of Health is dealing with just that with health authorities all over this province in order to deliver better results. Thank you. Mr.

Speaker (Hon. Mr. Oliver): Time.

Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick Oral Questions Original by Hansard Office Translation by Debates Translation 6 Mr. Melanson (Dieppe, Interim Opposition Leader, L): Mr. Speaker, the Premier just said that it is not about hiring more nurses. It is not about hiring. Other jurisdictions have complete, comprehensive retention and recruitment plans, plus they have incentives to keep nurses in the system and to bring in new ones. This Premier talks about all kinds of things that do not even relate to the fact that we have a shortage of nurses in our province. They are on stress leave. They want to go to work.

They are overworked. They need help. But the Premier leaves it to the RHAs. Do the dirty work. At the end of the day, a collective agreement is going to help to retain these individuals, these nurses and LPNs, and to recruit new ones. Why does he not get that? They have been three years without a collective agreement, and they have refused two of his proposals. When is the next negotiating session with them? Hon. Mr. Higgs (Quispamsis, Premier, Minister responsible for Intergovernmental Affairs, PC): Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate that any time there is talk about innovation or about doing things differently, the Leader of the Opposition gets confused. I understand that, because doing something different to get better is just not in the vocabulary. It is just the same old same old. Look across the country and see what they are trying to do across the country. They are not able to fill the vacancies they need to fill. And we are in the situation of asking: How do we find ways to compete with Quebec and Ontario? How do we find ways to deliver services?

Our discussions with the federal government have been based on having standards across the country so that we are not left trying to compete with richer provinces. And how do we have a health care transfer that reflects the reality that we have with our demographics? There is a big picture here. It is not singular. With respect to the issue around needing more nurses, if you go to back to that in terms of the universities and the money that was spent by the previous government to bring in more seats, it did not bring in any. No one was watching that. There is the difference, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker (Hon. Mr.

Oliver): Time. C