Manitoba Hansard — 12 October 1989 (Sitting 48, 34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

34-2-48

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

. .. . ..... LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, October 12 , 1989. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Donald Orchard (Minis ter of Hea lth): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the Annua l Report, 19 88-89, of the Manitoba Health Services Comm ission. Seco nd, I am ple ased to table the Review of Rehabilitation Services in Manitoba, 19 89, a report done for the department by Dr. Will iam MacDiarm id. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct Honour able Mem bers' attention to the gal lery where we have from the Scott Bateman Junior High, thirty Grades 7 and 8 students under the direction of Mr. Blan chette. This school is lo cated in the constituency of the Hono urable Mem ber for The Pas (Mr. Harapiak). Also with us this afternoon from the Pem bina Crest School, we have twenty-seven Grade 9 students under the direction of Leslie Mesman. This school is lo cated in the constituency of the Hono urable Mem ber for Fort Garry (Mr. Laurie Evans).

On behalf of Honour able Mem bers, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Nursing Profession Abusive Treatment Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Today, the Manitoba Association of Registered Nu rses released a report on the incidence of abuse of nu rses in the workpla ce. Mr. Speaker, the results indicate that our nu rses in Manitoba are subject to physical and verbal abus e from patients, from fam il ies, from col leagues, and indeed even their emplo yers.

This is intolerab le, particula rly as it is becoming inc reasingly mor e difficult to attract both men and women into the nursing profession. My question to the Minister of Workplace, Health and Safety is: what is the Min ister doing to ensure that her department is moni toring situations where nurses are physically endangered? What plans does she have to expand the mandate of her department to ensure that these workpla ce dangers do not go undetected? Hon. Gerrie Hamm ond (Minis ter resp onsible for Workplace Safety and Health): Mr.

Speaker, the report was ju st rele ased toda y and my department has received it. I have not read it at this time, but I understand that there is a recommend ation that MARN would like to hold discussions with the Departments of Labour, Jus tice, and Healt h. We welcome those discussions. * (1 335) Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, we would recom mend that we look beyond discussions and actually establish some protoco l. Health Care Facilities Security Systems Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): I have a question to the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard).

Will the Min ister of Health advise the Ho use what directives he will give to the Manitoba Health Services Comm ission regarding the funding of security systems, and that, because they have un derspent monies consistently in health care, many hospitals have cut back on the security systems available to nu rses, thereby putting these nu rses in danger? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minis ter of Hea lth): My honour able friend, the Leader of the Liberal Party's

preamble is not only convoluted , it is totally inaccurate. Mr. Speaker, if she had li stened some time ago when her col league, the official critic for Health for the Liberal Party, tried to make the accusation that hospital funding was done, I had to remind him, and I remind her today, that hospital funding last year was above what was presented in the defeated budget which brought this Go vernment into power, not less funding but mor e funding to the hospitals. The issue of abusive treatment of the nur sing personnel throughout the Province of Manitoba is a serious and ongoing issue.

The report by MARN will focus and hopefully provide direction to Go vernment as to what further action we can take, but it is an issue that has been dealt with by the comm ission in co-operation and colla boration with not only the administration of personal care homes and health care faciliti es throughout the province but indeed the nurses themselves. Police Response Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): The reality of the situation is that hospitals have cut back on security systems because they do not have the dol la rs.

Can the Min ister of Ju stice tell the Ho use today if he is prepared to issue a directive to the police requiring them to respond to calls from hospitals and nu rses in the com mun ity to provide assistance, and to direct the pol ice to la y complaints where appropriate and not rational ize this to nu rses by saying, take it, it is part of your job? 11n

Thursday, October 12, 1989 Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I believe it is the polic y of the pol ice authorities in this province to respond to calls when they are made. It is also the polic y to la y charges where the surrounding circumstances wou ld justify the laying of charges. I intend to discuss with my col leagues, the Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) and the Min ister of Workpla ce Safety and Health (Mr s. Ham mond), the report referred to by the Hono urable Leader of the Opposition (Mr s. Carstairs). Concordia Hospital Laboratory Worker Safety Mrs.

Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I have a new question to the Mini ster of Workpl ace Safety and Health (Mrs. Hammond). It is not onl y nu rses within our hospitals who are in danger. We have labor atory workers who are in severe danger as wel l. Can the Min ister responsible for the workplace tell the House today why a report on Concord ia Hospital's lab that was prepared in Febru ary of 19 86 has had no action and those people are still working under un safe conditions? Hon.

Gerrie Hammond (Minister resp onsible for Workplace Safety and Health): I will have to take that qu estion as notice. Mrs.Car stairs: Mr. Speaker, the hospital lab does not provide for permanent hoods to protect the workers from carcino gens. It does not even provide for portable hoods. Will the Min ister today direct the hospital to correct that situation so that the· emplo yees in that lab are not exposed to carcinogens? Mrs.

Hammond: I will direct the staff of Workpla ce Safety and Health to immediately con tact the hospital and check out the circumstances, and then we will deal with it accordingly. * (1 340) Mrs. Carstairs: They checked out the circumstances in February of 19 86. Now we require action. There are smears that are being prepared from specimen material which demands a biolo gical safety cabinet and no such safety cabinet exists at Concordia Ho spital. Will this Min ister order today the purchase of such a piece of equi pment in order to protect the workers at Concordia Hospital? Mrs. Hammond: Mr.

Speaker, while I recognize that the Leader of the Opposition is bringing me factual information, I will make sure that my staff checks that out today, and then if that particular piece of equipm ent is needed, I am sure they will make an order. Psychiatrist Shortage Selkirk Mental Health Centre Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Min ister of Healt h.

We have always stated that we believe the mental health challenges in this province should be worked on in a co-operative way, that we should work in a non-partisan way to deal with mental health chal lenges in this province, and we have offered our co-op eration to the Min ister of Health in that regard. A year ago there. were six full-time psychiatrists at Selkirk Hospital. Now, as the Minister is no doubt aware, we are do wn to one full-tim e psychiatrist as an administrator, and one full-time psychiatrist providing psychiatric care to patients on the floor , the 300 patients in Sel kirk.

Can the Min ister tell this Ho use and the people of Ma nitoba why the situation has deterior ated so dramatically over the la st year and the 300 patients have been left in such vul nerabil ity with this situation in the Selkirk hospital? Hon . Dona ld Orchard (Minis ter of Health): Mr. Speaker, the circumstance in terms of permanent, fully dedicated psychiatrists to the Selkirk Mental Health Centre is Jess today than it was some seven or eight months ago.

Part of the resigning of professional psychiatrists at Selkirk occu rred when we attempted to resolve the same very serious and lon g-standing psychiatric problem at the Brandon Mental Health Centre. Mr. Speaker, the recruitment efforts are ongoing with the facul ty, the prof essional association and the institutions in an attem pt to bring permanent psychiatrists to ·both Brandon and Selkirk.

In the meantime, let not my honourable friend's indications of woefu lly in adequate service prevail, because a numb er of fill-in arrangements from other professional psychiatrists are being made available to provide for patient care in Selkirk. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the Min ister of Health knows that patients now coming from all over Manitoba to the psychiatric facil ity at Selkirk are not getting any psychiatric assessments upon admission. They are not getting any treatment plans on their admission to the hospital, and it is the most serious situation at the Selkirk Ho spital that it has ever been.

My question to the Min ister is: why has he let this situation deteriorate so greatly and dramatically where it is the worst now than ever in the history of this province, and what action is he going to take to have specific and concr ete results, instead of just words in this Chamber? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, the words in this Chamber from time to time are not accurate words, and from time to time they are not accurate when they emanate from the mouth of the Leader of the third Oppo sition Party. Mr. Speaker, he is leaving the im pression that there are no psychiatric assessments being done on patients 1778

- Thursday, October 12 , 1989 being admitted to the Selkirk Mental Health Centre. That is no t correct, absolutely that is not correct, because we do have psychiatrists, both on a full-time permanent basis at the facili ty, as well as psychiatrists providing services from Winnipeg to provide those kinds of assessments and treatment plans. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the la st time the Member made such an accusation was deal ing with AIDS, and we found out what the truth was in his department. Mental Health Care Administration Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Can the Min ister explain the absolute admin istrative chaos in his own department deal ing with the Mental Health Services? There is no Assistant Deputy Min ister in pl ace for the Mental Health Services, after being promised in No vember of last year. There are two acting executive directors in his own department, and there � are three vacant positions that he promised No vember ' of 19 88. Can he explain to the people of Manitoba this chaos that is all around him and his Department of Healt h? * (1 345) Ho n. Donald Orchard (Mi nister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, seeing as how my honour able friend wants to put corrections on the record, let me put a correction on the record from Tuesday of this week, wherein my honourable friend said there were six rheumatolog ists in this province as of May la st year. In fact, one of the rheumatol ogists left not two years ago but in Jul y 1986. That was a very inaccu rate statement made by my honour able friend, the Member for Concordia. We are under recruitment of the Assistant Deputy Min ister. We have had a numb er of applic ants for the job. We are hopeful that that it will be filled in the near futu re. Mr.

Speaker, we are lo sing as an acting executive director in the near future one of the positions. The three directorships are advertised and competitions are � closing on them, and they will be filled in the near ' future. Mr. Doer: I refer the Minister of Health to the American Rheuma tolog ists Repor t to get the inde pendent statistics on the situation in Manitoba. My final qu estion to the Min ister of Health is his lack of any psychiatric recru itment, any psychiatric management, any mental health plan. What are Manitob ans to believe, Mr. Speaker?

Is it because nobody will work for the Minister of Health, or he does not trust anybody to work for his department? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, my honour able friend, the Leader of the New Democr atic Party, and I will admit he was not there as long as some of his group were, but there has been more reform of the mental health system in the 16 short months that we have been governing. Initia tives have been taken in Dau phin, in the Parklands Region, in the Brandon region, in Winnipeg.

There has been a pro-active reform of the system which has been accepted widely across this province by not only professional associations who are willing to work with this Go vernment to reform mental health but indeed the Canadian Mental Health Association, Manitoba Division, and other groups involv ed in mental health. The reform of this system is ongoing which was left neglig ent for years and years un der an NO P admin istration -(interjection) - Mr. Speaker: Order, ple ase. Conference on Urban Safety Manitoba Representation Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr.

Speaker, my qu estion is for the Min ister of Jus tice. Tomorrow and Saturday there is an international conference being held in Mon treal which has drawn legislators and experts from around the world to look into the role of legislators in making co mmuni ties safer from crime. This conference is by invitation only . There is no registration fee. This Min ister was invited to that conference on June 2 of this year and he declined to participate. Mor e than that, he decli ned to even nomi nate an alternate.

My question is: why has this Min ister failed yet again to take advantage of a unique opportun ity to meet with this blue -ribbon group and study this important issue for the very minor cost which would have had to be incurred to get to Mo ntreal? Why has he not even taken the time to appoint an alternate? Mr. Speaker: Order , ple ase; order, plea se. The Ho nourable Minister of Ju stice. Hon. James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, we know that cost is never an issue with the Ho nourable Mem ber for St. Jame s, nor with his Leader, nor with anybody else in the Li beral Party.

I can tell the Honourable Mem ber that certain com mitm ents that I have here in the Ho use as Go vernment Ho use Leader and commitme nts that for one reason or another keep me in Winnipeg or in Manitoba would no doub t be the reason for my not attending. Mem bers of my staff attend nu merous conferences as it is with regard to all kinds of matters which we think help us to provide a justice system in this countr y which to most reports is second to none in this whole countr y in many, many areas. * (1 350) Mr. Edw ards: If the Go vernment will not be represented, this province will.

I am happy to inform Members of this Ho use that we will be represented at that co nference because this Go vernment defaulted . Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, pl ease. The question is? Mr. Edwards: My next qu estion -(interjection) - well, the Mem bers see fit- 1779

Thursday, October 12 , 1989 Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order. The Ho nourable Memb er for St. Ja mes. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, did the Minister not think it was impor tant to be represented given that this province has had the second highest growth in crimin al code offences of any province in the last decade, has had the highest increase of any province in violent crimes in the last decade, and has had the highest homocide rate in this countr y for the last six years? If anyone should be there, Manitoba should be there. Mr.

Mccrae: The Ho nourable Mem ber chooses his topics carefully , I assum e, before he comes to the Question Period. One wonders why it is that he does not ask us questions, for example, about how we are doing these days in the crimina l pro secution s area with the backlog in the Province of Manitoba, not onl y in Winnipeg but wherever else there happened to have been a backlog. One wonder s why the Hon ourable Mem ber has stopped asking questions a year ago about the backl ogs at the Land Title s Office and other services that we provide to Manitobans in this province.

The Honourable Mem ber- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order. The Hono urable Member for St. Jame s. Mr. Edwards: The answer to the land titles delay was to kill the housing market. We know that. That is the Tory answer. My final question is for the Minister responsible for the Status of Women (Mrs. Hamm ond). Would she have been interested in this conference which is going to explor e how to prevent crime, including violent crimes against women, and did the Minister of Ju stice (Mr.

Mcc rae) even bother to ask her if she would be interested to take his pla ce at this conference, given that 7.4 percent of the sexual offences in this countr y are commit ted in Manitoba with 4 percent of the popula tion- Mr. Speaker: Order. Order, please. The Honourable Mem ber's qu estion seeks an opinion and is therefore out of order. Would you kindly rephrase your question, please? Mr. Edwards: Thank you , Mr. Speaker.

Was this Minister, the Minister for the Status of Women, asked by the Minister of Ju stice if she would be interested in going to this conference on his behalf given that it specifically deals with issues which wou ld have been of concern to her, particularly as a representative of this province? Mr. Mccrae: Mr. Speaker, you know the Honourable Mem ber, as I said, chooses careful ly, but I suppose if we did go to the se co nferences, then he wou ld come back with some other tack, such as why are you spending all this money, for instance?

The fact is we do attend conferences, numerous conferences, and people do like to hear from us, for example, about our Spousal Abuse Tracking Project, our Chil d Abuse Witness Program, our Victims Assistance Prog rams in this province, the tremendous efforts that have been made by judges in this province in terms of educ ation regarding family and spousal violence, and the changes.

Judge Ron Meyers, for example, wou ld be happy to sit down with the Honour able Mem ber and tell him about the progress we have made with our spousal assault court, the onl y one in this countr y, so that we are quite happy to attend whenever we can. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order. Service de Conseiller Funding Mr. Speaker: The Honour able Member for St. Boniface. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order. Order, pl ease. I have recognized the Ho nour able Mem ber for St. Boniface. Mr. Neil Gaudry (St.

Boniface): Mo nsieur le president, ma question s'adresse a la ministre des Services a la famille. Depuis le 20 juil let dernier, date de la demande d'aide financiere de Service de conseiller, la ministre des Services a la famille tour ne en rond et semble ne pas compr endr e le s necessites commu nautair es indispensables en vue d'assurer la croissance d'un enfant dans un mi lieu famili al sain et favorable. Mon sieur le president, cela est d'a utant plu s regrettable car, le 10 octobre dernier, la ministre a decide de refuser categoriquement de supporter la demande fin anciere de Service de con seiller .

Ma question est celle-ci: est-ce que la ministre est prete a reviser sa decision, prenant en consideration qu 'elle dit elle -meme, dans sa lettre du 10 octobre que, "les priorites de son ministere s'orientent vers le financement de programmes contre l'a bus de l' enfant" et qu'il est clair que Service de conseiller offre ses services aux memb res adu ltes de la famille, done les parents de ces enfants , services qui rentrent bel et bien dans la

partie preventive des programmes. Est-ce que la ministre accepte de reviser sa decision afin de financer le seul organisme bili ngue? (Translation) Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Family Services. Since Ju ly 20 of this year, on which date Service de Conseil ler applied for financial assistance, the Minister of Fami ly Services has been going round in circle s and does not seem to und erstand how vital it is for the communi ty to ensure child development in a healthy and positive family environment. This is even mor e regrettable in that on October 10 the Minister decided categorically to deny financial assistance to Service de Conseil ler. 1780

- Thursday, October 12 , 1989 My question is this: is the Minister prepared to review her decision given that she herself said in her letter of October 10 that her department's priorities are directed towards the funding of child abuse programs and given that it is obvious that the services provided by Service de Conseiller to adult family mem bers, meaning the parents of these childr en, fall within the preventive measures contained in these programs? Wi ll the Min ister agree to review her decision so that the only bilingual counsel ling service can be funded? (English) * (13 55) Hon .

Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): As the Memb er has indicated, I did correspond with that agency this week and indicated to them much the same answer as I had to give them when I corresponded with them before. We have not funded that agency in the past. The only way we could consider funding them was through a proposal for next year's budget, which 1We would have to consider. Mr. Gaudr y: Monsieur le president, la ministre ne semble donner aucune impor tance au paragraphe 10 des principes eno nces dans la Loi des Services a l' enfant et a la famil le.

Ma question, Monsieur le president, est cel le -ci: a la lumi ere de !'article 10 de la loi et des nombr euses lettres d'appui qu 'elle a rec;:ues, la ministre est-elle prete a reconnaitre que Service de cons eill er offre un service ind ispensable a la com muna ute? (Translation) Mr. Speaker, the Min ister does not appear to give any im portance to the statement of principles found in

Section 10 of The Child and Fam ily Services Act. My question is, in light of

Section 10 of the Act and the many letters of support she has received, is the Minister prepared to admit that Service de Conseiller provides an indispensable service to the commun ity? �Engl ish) Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Speaker, I do realize that was an important service that the agency provided. We also have that provision with the agencies that they provide that service, and we do recogn ize that childr en need help in cases of abuse.

Our comm itment is clear in that regard, but unf ortu nately this agency was a separate agency outside of Go vernment which has not been funded before, and to come in in the middle of the fiscal year, it was just too difficult to be able to fund them this year. Mr.

Gaudry: Monsieur le president, j'a imerais que la min istre dise; cette chambre quelle solution elle propose pour annonc er aux qu elq ues 500 personnes qui profitent actuell ement des bienfaits du Service de conseiller et dont plus ieurs ont non seulement besoin d'aide materielle et financle re, mais en plus, et surtout, d'eclair cissement psycholo gique. Comment, Monsieur le president, ou plu tOt, qu'est-ce que la ministre va 1781 donner comme raisons dans un communi que de presse? (Trans lation) Mr.

Speaker, I would like the Minister to tell this House what solution she intends to make public for the some 500 people who currently benefit from the invaluable help provided by Service de Conseil ler, people who do not just need material and financial assistance but also, and especially, psychologic al support, how, or rather what, reasons will the Minister give in her press release? (Engl ish) Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Speaker, as I had indicated, the agency could apply and present a proposal for next year's budget. Our main concern is with the childr en.

This agency also serves other family needs and so forth, but the Child and Fam ily Services Agencies are mainly preoccupied, of course, with the care and nut ure of childr en. Manitoba Child Care Association Meeting Request Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, this province is at an impasse in child care. The Government and the child care commun ity are headed on a collision cou rse and something has to be done. The Premier is saying one thing, impl ying that all this new mo ney Is going to existing centres; Child Care Association is refuting those statements. Who is telling the truth?

It is time for creative solutions to a breakdown in communic ations to end the impasse. Would the Premier agree today to meet with the Manitoba Child Care Association before October 17 , the day schedul ed for the volunta ry day of demonstration, and negotiate fair salaries for child care workers and a reasonable increase in funding for centres in this fiscal year? Hon . Gary Filmon (Prem ier): Mr. Speaker, I have last week agreed to meet with the Manitoba Child Care Association provided they withdraw their threat of strike. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Mr.

Speaker, for the record, the Premier refused to meet with the Child Care Association before any decision was taken on a ballot and on a day of protest. Mr. Speaker: The Ho nourable Mem ber for St. Johns, kindly put her qu estion now, please. ***** Mr. Speaker: The Ho nourable First Minister, on a point of order. Mr. Fil mon: I have done no such thing as refuse. I have said I am qu ite happy to meet with them provided they withdraw their threat of strike. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honour able First Min ister (Mr. Filmon) does not have a point of order. A dispute over the facts is not a point of order. The

Thursday, October 12, 1989 Honourable Member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis), kindly put her question now, please . ***** •

(1400) Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Mr. Speaker, I think the facts will speak for themselves. My questio n t o the Premier (Mr. Filmon) is: if the ballot being held today at this very moment shows a majority of support for voluntary action to demonstrate to this Government the serious gap in the existing system , will the Premier (Mr. Filmon) agree to meet with the Child Care Association before October 17 and negotiate a fair and reasonable settlement? Mr. Speaker: Order , please ; order , please . The Honourable Member's question is strictly a hypothetical question .

Would the Honourable Member kindly rephrase her question, please? Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Mr. Speaker , given that early results of the ballot being held today by the Manitoba Child Care Association shows overwhelming support for a day of protest to send a message to this Government, given those early results , will the Minister , will the Premier (Mr. Filmon) come to his senses and make a reasonable decision and agree- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , please; order , please . The Honourable Member for St. Johns . Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Will the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) do the reasonable thing and agree to a meeting with the Child Care Association before October 17 so that thousands of parents will not be inconvenienced and so that thousands more children will not be left without care? Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker , I would ask the Member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis) to stop trying to agitate for a strike . I have said to the Manitoba Child Care Association that you do not improve child care services in this province by withdrawing services in child care in this province . I am perfectly willing and happy to meet with them if they withdraw their threat of strike. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: Mr. Speaker , if representing the genuine concerns of the chil d care community is agitation, then I am proud of it. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , please; order , please. Day Care Walkout Conciliatic1n Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Jc>hns): Mr. Speaker, I am trying to present to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) a reasonable solution to a very difficult situation so that any withdrawal of service does not have to happen . My question to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) is: since the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) will not meet and will not respond to the Child Care Association's last letter which holds out the olive branch and calls for a compromise , will the Premier (Mr. Filmo

n) agree to appoint an impartial concil iator, a person such as Linda McNair , who headed up this Government's own Day Care Task Force , will he name such a conc iliator to bring the two parties togethe r before October 17 to develop a joint plan for restoring the conf ide nce of parents and child care providers in Manitoba's day care system ? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker , if I could be permitted without inte rrupt ion, we have made a firm and stro ng commitment to the child care community of this province , a 45 percent increase in funding in two budgets in the space of 17 months , $13 million additional dollars, a 35 percent increa se to the Salary Enhancement Grant to child care workers . I have said that I will meet with the child care workers , along with our Minister , provided they withdraw the threat of strike.

Last week I met with the Advisory Council on Child I' Care in this province , which included members of the Manitoba Child Care Associa tion, to look at a long term plan to provide additional funding to address concerns, inc luding those concerns about salaries of day care workers . We have at every opportunity responded to the letters. I have responded to every single letter that has been written to me by the Manitoba Child Care Association , including the ones she referred to that arrived in my office earlier this week .

Under all those circumstances , I have indicated we are prepared to do everything possible to improve quality, accessibility, flexibility of child care and to work for the best interest of the children and parents of this province and the day care community . Service de Conseiller Funding Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): Once again we have the Minister of Family Services (Mrs . Oleson) who makes budgetary I' decisions based on misinformation. The Minister has refused funding to the Service de Conseiller because , as she says in her letter , Child and Family Services provides marriage counselling . Well, they do not , Mr.

Speaker . In a phone call to them today they indicated to us that they do not have a marriage counsellor on staff , they only deal with children . My question to the Minister is: who do we believe ? Do we believe the Minister who writes the letter and says they provide the serv ice, or do we believe the agency who has told us they do not provide the service? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): The Membe r indicated we have been cutting fun ding . My department has never funded this organiza tion. We do not supply marriage counselling, as such ; we are provid ing service to children . Ms.

Gray: I am prepared to table a copy of the letters from Child and Family Services indicating they do not provide marriage counselling service . 1782

• • Thursday, October 12, 1989 My qu estion to the Min ister of Family Services (Mrs. Oleson) is: who made the decision to refuse the funding to the couns el ling service, given that you had misinformation in making that decision? An Honourable Member: It has never been funded before. Ms. Gray: Refused service, not cut. Do you guys not know the difference between cut and refused? Mr. Speaker: Order, pl ease. The Honour able Min ister of Fam ily Services. Mrs. Oleson: I will repeat once again, for the edification of the Mem ber, this was not part of the budget of Family Services this year.

We have not been funding this organization so it is not in the budget. I cannot fund them. Child and Family Services Marriage Counselling Ms. Avis Gray (Elli ce): I have a final suppl ementary to the Min ister of Fam ily Services. Could the Min ister indic ate to us why she would write in the letter that Child and Family Services of Eastern Manitoba provide marriage counsell ing, when clearly they have told us and they have put in writing that they do not provide the service. Do you not even know what is going on in your department? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): Mr.

Speaker, Child and Family Services of Eastern Manitoba is funded to provide service to childr en who come into care by that agency. They are not funded to provide marriage counselling. Klinic Community Health Centre Capital Funding Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): My question is to the Min ister of Heal th. The Min ister has repeatedly delayed a�Hng on the desperate need for a new facili ty at Klinic despite the fact the current building is ho pelessly inadequate and overcrowded, repeatedly refused to release the capital annou ncements for this year, which hopefully will deal with that matter as soon as possible.

What is more, this Go vernment has been downgrading the importance of the commun ity clinic system in Manitoba over the 18 months it has been in office. I ask the Min ister today, will he commit himself, as we do enter into the Estimates of the Department of Healt h, to annou nce today whether in fact this Government will provide the capital funding that is necessary to Klinic? Ho n. Donald Orchard (Min ister of Hea lth): Mr. Speaker, since September 18, I have been anxiously awaiting the comp letion of Highways Estimates so we can get on with discussion of Heal th.

My honour able friends in the Liberal and the New Democratic Parties 1783 appear unwilling to debate Health, because they have been holding up the Health Estimates for three weeks. I have been ready to go, and when we debate the Department of Health, we will have a full discussion of all the issues in the Department of Healt h. When we reach the Ma nitoba Health Servi ces Comm ission this year and the capital estimates are available, I hope my honour able friends take mo re than the 30 minu tes they took last year to discuss $1. 4 billion. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order. Are you all done?

The Ho nourable Mem ber for Thompson. * (14 10 ) Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, let the record show that the Opposition asked for those Estimates in June and the Minister has refused to provide it for the last six months. Health Care Community-based Clinics Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): My supplemen tary qu estion is in regard to a report that was released by the Saskatchewan Department of Health in regard to commun ity cl inic s.

They sat on it for six years, the Conservative Government in Saskatchewan, but I would like to ask the Min ister whether he has had the opportun ity to review this report which points cle arly to the fact that commun ity clin ics are a very efficient way of providing service. Will he now change this Go vernment's polic ies in regard to commun ity cl inics and give them the priority that they really should have in our health care system? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): No, I have not read the report. Mr.

Speaker, this Government considers commun ity clin ics to be part of the continuum of health care services available to Manitoba. We have not frozen the capital budget which denied many, many organizations across Manitoba their needed health care facilit ies, as happened in Dauphin, as happened with Kl inic, as happened on and on and on, because the NDP froze the capital budget in 19 87. Mr. Speaker, I know my honourable friends want to make all sorts of issues on the capital budget, but again, the capital bu dget of this Government will demonstrate our comm itment to a balanced health care system.

We will address the needed issues, we will add ress the inherited problems of capital reconstruction, and we will do it in a way that is responsible to the taxpayers and to those needing health care in the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Ashton: Mr.

Speaker, I repeat, in regard to the commu nity health clin ics, which this Government has downgraded, which this Government has refused to provide the operating capital or resources requi red, why will this Min ister now, in light of the fact that it is proven they are effective, they are cost-effective, not provide them with the support that they require, both capital and operating?

Thursday, October 12 , 1989 Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend, the Mem ber for Thompson, has been the official critic for the New Democratic Party one short day and he has al ready inherited his Leader's disease of not telling the truth. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, pl ease. ***** Mr. Speaker: The Hono urable Member for Thompson, on a point of order. Mr. Ashton: I find the com ments of the Memb er highly un parlia mentary.

Beyond that, I may have been the Health Critic for only one day, but I could ask the Min ister to review his record of the la st 18 months, in terms of statements he has put on the record , and then we could perhaps talk about truthful ness and la ck of truthful ness. Mr. Speaker: Order, ple ase; order, pl ease. As I have told Ho nour able Mem bers many times, this is a pla ce where we would ask all Honour able Mem bers to pick and choose your words very careful ly. ***** Mr. Speaker: The Honour able Min ister of Health, to finish his answer. Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Speaker, although I cannot really totally recall the question, I will give an answer. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, pl ease. Low Income Housing Subsidy Reduction Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (ln kster): My qu estion is to the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ducharme). Last June I pointed out cutbacks to the grant and subsidies portion of the budget, in particul ar, cutbacks to low -income seniors and low -income familie s. The Min ister answered, "I can assure the Mem ber across the way there has been no cut back in allo tments for 19 89." Mr. Sp eaker, the Min ister of Ho using misinformed this Chamber.

Accord ing to his Order-in Council dated August 2, 19 89, there were indeed cut backs. Mr. Speaker, my question to the Min ister of Ho using is: will the Min ister apolog ize today for misinform ing this Ho use last June and admit to the cutbacks to grants and subsidies allo tments? Hon . Gerald Ducharme (Mini ster of Housing): Mr. Speaker, I have to reconfirm to the individual that he is comparing budget to actual figures. I will explain that to him when we get to the Estimates process. Mr. Lamoureux: ·Mr.

Speaker, I will table the documents that show in bla ck and white that the Min ister did misinform the Ho use, and again I hope he will apolog ize for doing so. Citing the example, Mr. Speaker, given a senior received an increase in his pension of $34. 11 a month, his shelter allo wance was reduced by $1 1.20 a month. The pension increase takes into account the cost-of living incr eases. The SAFER payment decr ease happened because this Go vernment does not take into account- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member's qu estion is? * (1 420) Mr.

Lamoureux: Given that the decrease happened because this Government does not take into account cost-of-living increases- Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Lamoureux: -m y question to the Minister of Ho using (Mr. Ducharme) is: is this one of the reasons why the allo tment was decreased on this particular budget? Mr. Ducharme: Mr. Speaker, first of all let us get the record straight. The Con servative Go vernment started the SAFER Program, and two increases in six and a half years by the previous administration was all these people got.

We real ized that there is an inconsistency in this particular program, and our staff is in the process of reviewing the maximum rent ceilings to determine that they should be in relation to the cu rrent market situation. Mr. Speaker, our Go vernment will fix that situation. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James Mccr ae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I mo ve, seconded by the Honour able Min ister of Financ e (Mr. Manness), that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the Ho use resolve itself into a commit tee to consider of the Su pply to be granted to Her Maj esty. MOTION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a comm ittee to consider of the Sup ply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honour able Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gill eshammer) in the Chair for the Department of Highways and Transportation, and the Department of Health; and the Honour able Mem ber for Burrows (Mr. Chornopyski) in the Chair for the Department of Rural Developme nt. 1784

• • • Thursday, October 12, 1989 CONCURRENT COMMI TTEES OF SUPPL Y SUPPL Y- HIGH WAYS AND TRANSPORT ATION Mr. Chairman (Har old Gil lesh amme r): I cal l this meeting to order to discuss the Estimates of the Department of Highways and Transportation. Before we comp lete the Estima tes of the Department of Highways, I have a ruling to give the comm ittee. CH AIRMA N'S RULING Mr. Chairman: On Thursday, October 5, 1989, I took under advisement a point of order raised by the Min ister of Native and Nor thern Affairs (Mr. Downey), regarding comments allegedly made by the Hono urable Mem ber for Dauphin (Mr.

Plohman), with regard to the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard). As I did not hear the remarks in qu estion, I took the matter under advisement in order to peruse Hansard. I do note on page 1630 of Hansard that the remarks "I do not think he did, he distorted facts as usual and li ed as usual ," were attributed to the Honourable Mem ber for Dauphin (Mr. Ploh man).

Further on page 1631, the Member for Dau phin states, "So I stand qui te clearly with what I said, but if lying is un parl iamentary I will not leave that on the record, but certainly it is information and it is not factual ." There is a degree of confusion surrounding the issue as words were exchanged between the Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) and the Mem ber for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) off of the record, while the Mem ber for Assiniboia (Mr. Mandrake) was asking qu estions of the Minister of Highways (Mr. Al bert Driedger).

The Member for Assiniboia had been recogn ized by the Chair and leg itimately had the floor . I would like to caution Mem bers that conversations between Mem bers should be carried out at the back of the room and that the cou rtesy of attention should be given to the Mem ber who has the floor. It is unp arlia mentary to charge that a Mem ber is lying to the Ho use or to a commit tee.

The Mem ber for Dauphin did offer a qualif ied withdrawal when he said, ". . . if lying is unparliame ntary, I will not leave that on the record, but certainly it is misinformation and it is not factual." The Chair is pleased to accept the withdrawal by the Mem ber for Dauphin, but at the same time I would like to remind all Honourable Members that it is the practice of the Ho use to provide an unq ual ified withdrawal. I do mention that the Mem ber for Dauphin did withdraw. As for his qual ifying remarks, it is not un parl iamentary to state that a Mem ber is offering factually incorrect information.

I would like to caution all Mem bers to choose their words with care. I am reading these remarks into the record to conclude the issue. ***** On the Estima tes process we are on item I. Admin istration and Fina nce: Min ister's Salar y-the Member for Assiniboia. Mr. Ed Mandr ake (Assiniboia): Just before we recessed on Tuesday we were asking a multitude of 1785 qu estions on the Taxicab Board. I would like to just ask a few other qu estions and we will go on further. First of all, in answering the questions to my col league from St.

Vital, the Mem ber said he is not aware that there are any further vacancies on the Taxicab Board. Would the Min ister consider placing a mem ber from the taxicab industry on that board so that they have input from the industry itself? The other point is, could the Min ister provide the critics with the min utes of the Taxicab Board for the last 15 months and a numb er of incidents of threat or violent acts towards cab drivers reported to the Taxicab Board in the last 15 months? Hon .

Alb ert Driedger (Mi nister of High ways and Transportation): First of all, let me indicate to the comm ittee here that at the conclusion of the last set of Estimates, when we la st met as a comm ittee, that the critic, the Mem ber for Assiniboia put on a variety of qu estions at the end and I indicated that we will be responding to those because at that time we were trying to possibly accomm odate completing the Estimates of this department.

I have instructed staff to get the Hansard so that we can take those qu estions and deal with them and I will reply to those questions in written form to the Member so that he gets that information. I would like to indicate specifically about the taxicab industry that the request was whether I would consider changing the format of the Taxicab Board to include a driver or somebody from the industry itself. I am prepared to discuss that with the chairman of the Taxicab Board and myself to indicate that we are in the process of setting up an advisory board for the Taxicab Board, like an advisory group.

I made the comm itment the other day alr eady that we would be having driver representation from the industry on that board. * (1 430) It is not that we are ignoring the people who are in the business. We want to get them involved and I certainly anticipate, after what has happened this week, that we will be looking forward to the final report from the chairman about the hearings, at which time I will be able to take and make some decisions based on the recommendations that come forward. Mr. Chairman, I am trying to recall one of the questions that the Member asked, whether I could make the minutes available.

I never receive the minutes from the Taxicab Board hearings. The Taxicab Board is a qu asi-judicial board an arm's length removed from the Mi nister, just lik e the Mo tor Transport Board. I do not get the minu tes of those proceedings either. I will check into that. If this is something that has been done in the past, I have no difficulty with it, but I do not know whether that is a process that can be accommo dated. I will check into that. Mr. Mandrake: Mr. Chairman, the Mem ber for Dauphin is also on the rural com mittee so I will keep my questions and let him go if he wants to make a statement. Mr.

John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Chairman, I wou ld like to, in conc luding the remarks, first of all thank the Mem ber for Assiniboia for the cou rtesy of trading over the floor to me at this time.

Thursday, October 12, 1989 I have .. lo ok ed over the.Estimates discussion that we have had· with the Hig hways and Transpor tation Department over the la st numb er of months, or weeks at least-it seems li ke months, I guess it has been months since it was la st June as wel l.

We have seen during that time some good things the Min ister has follo wed up with over the past one and a half years that he has been Minister, a safety code for the trucking industry that was begun during our time in Government, national ly, the sensitive regu lation changes in truck ing, the appl ication of the regula tions, some good programs that in many cases were started by the previous Go vernment. Overal l, the tale that unfolds in the Estimates over this past numb er of weeks is one of failur e, ineffectiveness, and compla cency or inabil ity, ju st plain Inabilit y, to get the job done.

This Min ister has failed to mobili ze Manito bans against federal decisions, which is one of his major responsibili ties, failed to provide the facts and information needed in a timely way to oppose. those devastating decisions that are being impo sed by the Conservative Go vernment in Ottawa, and to qu antify the specific impacts of those decisions. We do not have that kind of information from him. He has not been on top of the situation. He seems to be constantly unaware of things that are happening, if it is CN layoffs or whether it is VIA layoffs or whatever.

He seems to have even failed to impress his Premier (Mr. Filmon) of the importance, and certainly some of his col leag ues, with the need for an urgent meeting with the Prime Min ister. He does not seem to have got that message across, because the Premier contin ues to refuse to do that. He has not been able to impress a lot of people with the information and the urgency of the situation that has hit Manitoba because of actions of the federal Con servative Go vernment. In addition, he has failed to get any mo vement on future transportation agreements with the federal Go vernment. We asked about this la st year.

We asked again this year. He still has a numb er of points laying on the table. He said now that after the Estimates we can discuss further where they are at and so on, and that is nice, but there is no action over the year. A year ago the comm ittee, the all-Pa rty comm ittee, met on the transportation issues, and we met with representat iv�s of the North, of the commun ities involv ed, so that we could plan a joint strategy. Nothing has happened since then. They invited us to go up to have a meeting such as that, a follo w-up meeting in the North, in Churchill. It never happened.

This Min ister has failed to take action on tha t im portant issue and on the agreements. He has not foll owed up. Here we had major agreements in pla ce. We had done as part of those agreements, we had un dertaken major capital works including new grain- car development and refurbishment of additional grain cars in the CN fleet so they wou ld not be short of cars, including dredging at the Port of Churchill, a new tug boat, and many other valuable-the Hydro lin es so important for a future for the Port. We und ertook a num ber of studies that identified oppor tuniti es for Churchill.

The Minister-had an opportunity, and has had over the la st year and a half, to move forward on succeeding agreements to that and he has not been able to do that. He has not even gotten, as we saw in the Hansard in the Estima tes in discussion, a firm fina ncia l comm itment from his colle agues, from his Cabinet, for an agreement at Churchill. The blueprint was there, and he is lett ing it slip through his hands. The federal Go vernment is wal king away without even a scar on this because the Min ister does not say anything about It. He does not say anything.

He says a li ttle bit but he is not agg ressive enough in getting any action. He has failed miserably on Churchill. In his two years that he has been Min ister, we have seen 50,000 tons one year, and 250,000 the next year, the. worst seasons on record for Churchill during his time as Minister, dismal seasons, perhaps the most dismal in the history of the Port, certainly last year's. He has abandoned the safety of northern Manitobans with regard to the off-road vehicles. He has taken no action to ensure that there are safety programs put in pla ce.

He has messed up the amendments to The Highway Traffic Act la st spring so badly that he has to bring in a whole new Act to try and straighten them all out again-t errible mess, con voluted mess. They had all the amendments on top of it after the Bill was drafted, and no w they have a whole pile more amendments because it will not work and it was done so poorly on drinking and driving. That is inexcusable for a Min ister. He has failed to gain approval for a revised rail-r ational ization program. He says that is still something he is working on. We are going to talk about that yet too. No answers here.

He failed to gain federal funding for a national highway system that has been in progress now for some years, this program. Despite the comp etent efforts of his Deputy Minister in putting forward and lea ding the efforts here for Manitoba, this Min ister has not been able to-with that team, with that support that he has achieve any comm itment from the federal Government. Right under his nose, Mazankowski, the Deputy Prime Minister, continues to dismantle Manitoba and Winnipeg as a transportation system and move it to Edmonton to his constituency. This Min ister says nothing about it. He knows nothing about it.

He did not know in the Ho use about it. He did not know that they are continuing to mo ve piece by piece those transportation headqu arters to Edmonton. He sits there, was not advised of it, was not aware of it. One of the mo st disturbing things is the fact that since this Min ister has taken over his portfolio, the railways, the major Crown corporations, federal as they are, seem to be by-passing him and his position comp letely. There is no involvement. He is insignificant in the process. They do not even talk to him, consult with him, advise him of decisions before they take them.

We had that understanding that at least they would consult with us before. They do not do that anymor e. They do not. even consider this Minister. When one looks at that dismal record, all of those things together, one has to wonder, and rightly so, one 1786

• Thursday, October 12, 1989 could justly ask the question : why has this Minister not resigned as a result of all of that? Ho w can he face himself in the morning in the mirror and stand strong and erect and say, yes, I am really accomplishing something? He is not. He has not done anything. He has been a failur e in all of these areas and perhaps the only way this Min ister can send a strong message at this time is to resign in protest over his own inabil ity to get results. Maybe then people will li sten. You will say, oh yes he resigned.

Gee, we must be doing something wrong, or maybe they will ju st say, wel l, he was ineffective anyway, but it is his only chance to make a strong statement. I say to this Minister now he has an opportunity before we pass his salary, because I can tell you that I believe his hand will shake a great deal when he takes that cheque, when he takes the mone y all ocated to him as Min ister, when in fact he has failed so miserably all the way. His hand is going to shake, he is going to lose sleep over it.

He is going to have an awful time conti nuing, in any event, and we know that is going to be the case for this Minister. I say to the Min ister now, resign and let somebody else try because this Min ister has not got results. He has been a dismal failur e. * (1 440) I have enumerated the various areas where he has obviously got no action and been ineffective. I say to the Mi nister, you know, he is a nice fel lo w and I like him and we get along fine, but this is business and we can only judge by his results in these very important areas to Manitoba. He has been a dismal failur e and he should resign. Mr.

Alb ert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I suspect possibly the Mem ber for Dauphin (Mr. Plohma n), the critic from the NOP on Highways and Transportation, I un derstand had an opportunit y to visit his constituency and he mu st have got bad news out there because, obviously, he is sort of upset. I do not know whether it has something to do with the message that the people are giving him back there, or whatever happened. An Honourable Member: There was good news there, but bad news here. Mr. Alb ert Driedger: The Mem ber makes all kinds of statements and puts all kinds of things on the record .

I ju st want to indicate that in terms of comparing the record of his admin istrations and this present admin istration within my department that we can walk very proud ly. In fact, when we look at the construction aspect of it, that Mem ber had to hang his head in shame because his colle agues wou ld not go along with the Highways- Mr. Plohman: Highways and Transportation is much mor e than that. Mr. Albert Driedger: It is much mor e than that, but the highways construc tion specifically deals with highways, and the Mem ber's record is something that he should hang his head in shame.

If anybody should have resigned it should have been that Mem ber who could, instead of having increases in the highway construction program, had a decrease every given year to the point where he spent $83 milli on in the year '87. Mr. Ploh man: Misinformation. Mr. Al bert Driedger: I think that is something that is unacceptable, tha t is not misinformation. I have the record that shows exactly how much mo ney was spent and I will p1.1t that on the record. ***** Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. Mr. Chairman: The Mem ber for Dauphin, on a point of order. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Chairman, we have just gone through your ruling on statements about Honour able Mem bers having an obl igation to put co rrect information on and that person should not call another person a liar in terms of that information. I am not going to do that, but what I am saying to this Min ister is the com ments I made hurt him very much because they probably hit home, but the fact is that the budget during the years that we were in Government was not, as he said, every year less, it varied. There is a difference and he should look at each year and ensure that he is putting facts on the table because he is not.

He is not putting factual information, there is an error in what he is saying, and he should check that before he makes those statements. Mr. Chairman: I wou ld like to thank the Honour able Mem ber for his comments. He does not have a point of order; a dispute over the facts is not a point of order. The Honour able Minister. *'**** Mr. Al bert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, before I got interrupted. I am prepared to take and show the figures of mon ies that were expended every year in the Highways Department, not what was budgeted but what was spent, that makes a big difference.

The Mem ber is talking about putting misinformation on the record. Well; he got up in the Ho use the other day and raised a qu estion with me, Mr. Chairman, about 10 positions going to Edmonton in the accounting department of CN. Well, Mr. Chairman, I would like to put it on the record that six positions were lost through early retirement, one position was moved to Edmonton. If he talks about putting wrong information on the record, that was certainly another case.

If the Mem ber wants to start comparing apples with apples, let us go, but it was seven positions that were involv ed, not 10; six were through the re-organization, six positions were deleted, they were not mo ved. The Mem ber at that time made accusations that 10 positions were moved to Edmonton and I did not know anything about it. Wel l, I will tell you some thing, it is this kind of a thing, if the Mem ber wants to be critical, he tal ks about the history of Churchill, and I wish the Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohma

n) had maybe synchronized 1787

Thursday, October 12 , 1989 , his efforts so that the Mem ber for Churchill (Mr, Cowan) the other day- Mr. Chairman: Or der, please. I recogn ized the Ho nour able Minister. Mr. Alb ert Driedger: -i f he wanted to compar e his notes of what happened here the other day with the Member for Churchill when we went through the whole Churchill issue, as well.

I want to repeat it for this Member's benefit that during their regime, 15 of the la st 20 years, it has been the NOP that were in Go vernment-or what is it, 15 out of 21, or whatever the case may be, the popula tion in Churchill decreased from a high of 7 ,OOO at one stage of the game and dropped down to where we have less than 1,000 people, and they talk about their record. Well, that record, as far as I am concerned -(interjection) - Mr. Ploh man: I wou ld love to hear it all but I have to go. Resign and get it over with. Mr. Alb ert Driedger: Then he sits there and asks me to resign. Mr.

Speaker, I find it interesting that the critic comes here and makes a statement like he did on the record and then walks out of here. That is his prerogative, but that shows the kind of credibili ty he has and the kind of statement that he has because I cannot take and refute it to him when he is here. ***** Mr. Chairman: On a point of order, the Mem ber for Assiniboia. Mr. Mandrake: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I do not think it is parli amentary to mention that a Mem ber is wal king out of the comm ittee. Mr. Chairman: The Member does not have a point of order.

I recognize the Honourabl e Minister. **** Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I make no apologies for the statement that I just made because I think it is downright rude to do what the Mem ber did, to make that kind of a statement and then walk out. I make no apologies for that because I wanted to address the concerns that he put on the record reflecting on my decisions and my performance as a Min ister. Ending up asking me to resign, I take offence at that because I would lik e to address the aspect of the National Highway Prog ram.

There are other issues that I would have lik ed to have addressed and refuted and do not have the opportun ity to do this with the Mem ber, and that, I feel is downright rude. I do not find that acceptable and I will deal with that issue with him in the future. Mr. Mandr ake: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate what the Minister is saying. All I am trying to say is, let us just try and finish off by three o'c lock if we can. I have several questions for the Min ister.

In a driver's examination, level No. 3, in Brandon, I am not going to use the lady's name but I am ju st going to give you an idea as to what her confidential report was, and this is under Potential: lady is energetic, a reliable emplo yee. Since becoming an driver examiner she has prepared herself for promotion by taking career devel opment cou rses in dealing with people, interviewing skills, and mo st recently , written commun ications; and this is what the man had under his: has proven to be an honest, reliable examiner.

Under Training and Development-and this is for the lady -a n excellent candidate for administrative position. For the man: self-development in delegating duties to subordinates; 2. advanced interview skills. Now these are just alleged things that have happened. The man was absent. He did not receive his merit increase and he received an extension to his probation on May 18 , 19 89. Again, Mr. Chairman, to the Mi nister, I am saying this is alle ged. I cannot prove it. No w, back in Jun e, Mr. Chairman, I spoke to the Min ister about affirmative action.

He provided me with a li st of affirmative action in his department. Now again I go back to the affirmative action, and under the drivers examiners, level 3, there are no women employ ed. Now I was wondering whether or not the Min ister could take this under advisement and provide both critics as to why this lady has to go through the harassment of competitions and appeals? Could the Minister intervene in this case and may cooler heads prevail? Mr.

Al bert Driedger: I feel sensitive when somebody indicates that within my department or any department of Government that there is not proper affirmative action being im plemen ted. In this particular case, I am prepared to take and look at the case and see exactly what has happened. I have to indicate that within the Department of Highways and Transportation, especially in the construction end of it, of course, we do not have that many females who would like to be involved in that. However, we are strongly encou raging certainly the engineering aspect of it.

In fact, I might indicate we have two lad ies who have been hired as engineers under the bridge program and we are elated. My director of bridges, Mr. Walter Saltzberg, has indicated that he is just extremely pl eased. I have had the occasion to meet the lad ies on the job, th ey are very capable of doing it. * ( 14 50) I do not think there is any problem in terms of hiring on the affirmative side. Maybe circumstances are such that we do not always have that kind of people available that the position cal ls for, but I think this trend is developing. It is coming along very nicely.

In this particular case, if there has been some discrepancy-a nd I am not defending the staff in that regard-it well might have been something that created a situation here, and I am certainl y going to look into that. It is not unu sual for concerns to be brought forward in terms of whether our hiring practices are proper, or the posting and assessments are done properly. 1788

- Thursday, October 12, 1989 I have tried to involv e myself when there is a problem to see this has been done in a correct way, and invariably I think very often, when you have positions that are being posted, by the time the people go through a process, the one that is not successful always feels as if they have been slighted. In the cases of min orities,, in a case like that, maybe it gets to be a sensitive issue. I am very concerned about that, and I will look into this issue. As the Member is probably well aware, I do not have that kind of information here. I will have to get the background of it.

Certainly, we will look into that. If there are any other cases where we are not following proper process procedu res in hiring, I certainly want to be made aware of it, and personally I do not tolerate it and will take co rrective measures. Mr. Mandrake: I say to the Minister, drivers examiner, 3; numb er of emplo yees, 11 ; women in non-traditional occu pations, nil. This lady was a drivers examiner for five and a half months. Now, I will talk to the Minister personally on this, but I just wanted that on the record, because I think there is an injustice done here.

I feel if cooler heads prevailed maybe we can come up with a reasonable and respectable solution. Mr. Al bert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, if the Mem ber will give me the name and the details of it, whatever information he has, we are certainly going to go and check into that. As I indicated before, before we got into this other issue with the Mem ber for Dauphin (Mr. Plohma n), the Mem ber the other day was putting a variety of qu estions and concerns on the record.

When we have the Hansard we are going to take and review that, and then I will try and respond as best I can, knowing full well that one does not always cover all the qu estions. If there are further qu estions that the Mem ber has, he can address the matter to me personally or by way of a letter, and we will deal with them. Mr. Mandrake: Again, Mr. Chairman, a question to the Minis ter.

Last year during Estima tes there was a reduction in one commun ications officer in the administrative branch, and the Min ister told me at that time when I raised that qu estion that there was only one co mmun ica tions officer left. Has that been increased this year? Mr. Alb ert Driedger: Because of the activity that has been taking pl ace in my department, basically with drinking and driving, and the photo li cen sing development, the work that is involved there, I had one com munic ator la st year.

I have one commun icator this year who basically has been moved to deal with the drinking and driving aspect of it together with the A.G.'s department and with the photo li censing. I have hired a fel lo w by the name of Henry Dyck on a term position as a commun icator in my department. That term position termi nates in November, and I canno t indicate what will happen at that time. Mr. Mandrake: This is to the same Minister. Was that a competition or was that ju st a politic al appointment? Mr. Albert Driedger: Under a term position, you do not advertise necessarily, that is my perception.

What I did, I had the availabil ity of somebody li ke Mr. Dyck who I felt had been working with a radio station for nine years, who is non-pol itical incidentally and - (interjection)- Well, I will tell you something. If the Member wants to go and check whether this mem ber ever belong ed to a pol itical Party or whether he had any involvement, he can do so. My only involvement with Mr. Dyck when I hired him was the fact that he had been interviewing me for many years during the cou rse of nine years that he was with CHSM as a radio annou ncer.

He came and I had the occasion to discuss this with him and felt that he was somebody who I could use in the interim while I needed the extra additional help and that is what I did. I make absolute no apologies for that, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Mandrake: Yes, Mr. Chairman, Order-in-Council No. 11 72. I notice that the Min ister has now appointed another special assistant with the salary of $37 ,504.00. Is this over and above the present special assistant you have? Mr. Alb ert Driedger: Mr.

Chairman, I would lik e to inform the Mem ber that to my regret and my department's regret that my special assistant who I have had until about a week ago or two weeks ago, Terry Sokolyk, is now working in the Premier's Office. As a result of not having a special assistant, I have now appointed a new special assistant at the bottom of the wage rung. His name happens to be Hollis Kinsey. He has been with me now for I think four days. I am optim istic that we will have a very good working relationship. I have lots of confidence in him.

I hope that when the Mem ber for Assiniboia's critics comes forward with questions and information that he will get to meet this man and find that he will be easy to work with. Mr. Mandr ake: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I have noticed in the past while the misuse of dealer pla tes and repair pla tes. I will itemize these pla tes to the Minister. I do not expect him to provide me with an answer, but when I see a person driving around at twelve o'clo ck at night with an "R" pla te I know that is a misuse of pla tes. An Honourable Member: An "R" pla te? Mr. Mandr ake: The Ho nour able Member for Turtle Moun tain (Mr.

Rocan) says, "R" pla te. Obviously he does not know what an "R" pl ate is. I will tell him for his edification. It is a repair pla te. It is only meant for repairing of vehicles to transport it from one end to the other and that is it. It cannot be used for personal transportation. D2665, D25505, D2 1568, R8346, R8 133, R8 1 84. No w- An Honourable Member: No w do we yell bingo? Mr. Mandr ake: Yes, that is bingo all right. These pl ates are only meant for transportation of a vehicle from point A to point B for repair. When it comes 1789

Thursday, October 12 , 1989 . to dealers' pla tes it is only for demonstration of the vehicle, not for personal use. Mr. Alb ert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Mem ber cou ld indicate like he gave a series of pla tes, and I will get that information off the Hansard. If he wants we will check into- An Honourable Member: It is on the record. Mr. Alb ert Driedger: Yes. I ju st need copies of those num bers. I will get that off Hansard. I am just wondering if he could give me a li ttle bit mor e backgrou nd.

The numb ers of pla tes that he has, are these all pl ates that were, let us say, in progress after hours or how- An Honourable Member: Yes, yes. Mr. Alb ert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I know it is highly irregular for myself to ask but just for clarifica tion purposes, how many plates did the Mem ber have there. Mr. Mandrake: Six. Mr. Alb ert Driedger: No w, Mr. Chairman, I do not want to be facetious but how did the Mem ber manage to gather these? Are these from across the city or just in his end of town? I am just trying to get a bit of a feel for- An Honourable Member: Across the city and out of town. Mr.

Al!Mtrt Driedger: Mr. Chairman, maybe further clarification that I require, I am just trying to get a li ttle bit of background. I find it is sort of un usual that somebody wou ld note these things. I have become tremendously much mor e conscious of anything that happens on highways includ ing li cence pl ates. I see some of the ones that are up front there that I am not very pl eased with at times. I find it sort of un usual that the Mem ber would be collecting numb ers of li cence pla tes and indicate that they are repair li cence pl ates and that they are used after hours, that is why.

I will do a check on it and see exactly who they are registered to, whether it is one, whether there is an abuse there. If there is an abuse there we will try and correct it. * (1 500) Mr. Mandrake: This is going to be my last qu estion because we only have about 30 seconds left. Regarding the urban design proportions of 5 and 83 in Roblin, the town is asking an urban design for provincial trunk highways including improved lighting, installation of sidewalks and gutters and other facilities. Council will advise the Min ister of their feelings and will inform him there is no need of a study.

Again, we are going back to studying things. They are saying there is no need in that. The real and immediate need is for an urban design to be done as soon as possible. Would the Min ister look into that and get back to me? With that, I will say pass. Mr. Alb ert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, hold it, hold it. I do not want to have this thing, a qu estion thrown on and a comment made and then pass it; I did not catch the first part. Where was this study taking pla ce? Mr. Mandrake: It is not a study, Mr. Minister. I will provide it to you. It is on the record. It is from Robl in, Manitoba. Mr. Alb ert Driedger: Mr.

Chairman, I might indicate to the Mem ber what happened in Roblin. I was out in Roblin this summer and we went and loo ked at the circumstances that the Members were concerned about. We have a matter of concern there and they have asked us to correct this situation. I believe the Mem ber is probably making reference to the stop sign where the highways meet and where they want the urban

section done. I have to, for the Member's edification, ind icate to him that when we und ertake a project somewhere we have engineers. I am not an engineer. I have to rely on the professional staff in terms that they basically know what they do. When we undertake a project the first thing we do is sort of develop a survey and design ' and do a study. In fact I can illus trate to the Member that at the present time it takes more time and is more compl ex now because in many cases we even have to do an environmental im pactcstudy.

Highway 75, for example, we have to go through the environme ntal hearing process to do these things. Coming back to the Roblin situation, we have to basically do a design. We cannot just go in there with machines and start digging it up. It is done on a professional basis where we develop a design, then in many cases we have to buy right-of-way, et cetera, then ultima tely we let a cont ract, and then the project gets underway. He makes reference to not studying it. I think the Mem ber would consider me not responsible if we did not use this kind of an approach.

As I indicated, I have to rely on staff who have been there long before I came on the scene and will be there probably long after I leave, I do not know how long after I leave. Regardless who would be Minister, Mr. Chairman, the process in terms of the engineering process is going to be an ongoing thing and I have to rely on that. It is not a matter of studying these things but we have to go up through a process lik e that. Mr. Chairman: Further qu estions? Shall the item pass-p ass. Resolution No. 72:

BE IT RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $4,208,5 00 for Highways and Transportation, Admin istration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1990- pass. This concludes the Estimates for the Department of Highways and Transportation. I would like to thank the Min ister and the critics for their co-operation. The next set of Estimates to be considered in this

section of the Comm ittee of Su pply is the Estimates for the Department of Heal th. I believe we have to briefly recess the comm ittee and get set up for the com mencement of these Estimates. · 1790

• Thursday, October 12, 1989 SUPPLY-HEAL TH Mr. Chairman (Harold Gil leshammer): I would like to call the Comm ittee back to order to discuss the Estimates of the Department of Healt h. We will now comme nce consideration of these Estimates. We will begin with an opening statement from the Minister responsible. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minis ter of He alth): Mr. Chairman, thank you for the opportun ity to com mence the debate and discussion on the Department for the Mi nistry of Healt h's Estimates. Mi ght I start by offering to my long- standing colleague, the ML A for Thom pson (Mr.

Ashton), my congratula tions on his appointment today as the Health Critic for the third Party in the Ho use. I welcome his incisive observations on how the health care system is functioning in the Province of Manitoba and I look forward to his generous contri bution to debate; and of cou rse to my colle ague, the ML A for Kild onan (Mr. Cheema). I look forward to his contin ued and long serving role as critic for the Official Opposition to the min istry of Health. Mr. Chairman, I am pl eased to present today the working Estimates of the Manitoba Min istry of Health for the fiscal year ending March 31, 19 90.

I will be asking this commit tee to suppor t my request of $1 ,557, 233,800 worth of spending, an increase of some $99 ,260,300, or 6.8 percent over the previous adjusted vote of $1 ,457,937,5 00 for last year's Estimates. Before I go on with this presentation, Mr. Chairman, I want to pay tribute to li terally thousands of dedicated workers throughout the health care system, and I would like to add a very special note of thanks to regional staff for their untiring efforts during this summer's fire emergency. Also, Mr.

Chairman, I would like to thank the co mmun ity group s, pro fessional associations, the un iversities, volu nteer agencies, and individuals with an interest in the health system, whose counsel has , made important contributions to decision-making as we develop the partnerships that are a feature of my ministry's activities. Now, Mr. Chairman, when I took on this job 16 months ago I was faced with a health care system which was flawed and in need of repair, la cked direction and needed refocusi ng, was in decline and needed revitalizing.

We have concent rated on stabili zing the system to prepare it to meet current chal lenges and demands by appl ying principl es of innovation, sound management, affordabili ty, and quali ty care as criteria for evaluation of services and programs. Mr. Chairman, I would like to talk for a moment about some of the actions taken to stabilize the system. We establ ished the Health Advisory Network under the able chairmanship of Dr. Arnold Naimark. The network has capital ized on the expertise available in Manitoba to address specific long -standing issues which have not been dealt with adequately up to now.

Since January of this year six task forces have been addressing the fol lowing long-una ttended issues: 1791 Teaching-hospital review- examining the roles of the Health Scienc es Centre and St. Bonif ace General Ho spital to establish an acceptable funding base for Manitoba's teaching hospitals. Second , Wi nnip eg Ho spitals Role Defi nition determining ways to ensure better co-ord ination and co-operation among Winnipeg hospitals with special emphasis on the concentration of resources. Third, Review of Extended Treatment Bed Utili zation -c onfirming the

definitions associated with extended treatment and dete rmining appropria te pol icies, procedures, and bed levels for this form of care. Fourth, Rural Health Services-considering the evolving role of rural health facilit ies, the function of regional referral centres, and the supply and distribution of rural health professionals. Fifth , Nor thern Health Services-ex amining the unique health care del ivery needs of Northern Manitoba and the issues of man power recruitment and retention and co-ordination of services.

Sixth, Health Services to the Elderly-a special task force has been assigned to review co-ord ination and integration of health services for seniors. Efforts will be directed to defining means to remove service gaps which may affect the elderly in Manitoba. * (1 520) In addition, Mr. Chairman, three new task forces will soon begin an examination of pol icy issues surrounding health informa tion systems, alterna te health care services, health promo tion. I am advised the terms of reference for these reviews are now com ple te. Mr.

Chairma n , the process of stabili zation and rebuilding has also includ ed a phased-in program to achieve wage parity between unioni zed and non union ized health workers, provision of adequate funding for provincial ambula nce services, bringing funding up to just above the national average. Un freezing the Capital Construction Program has provided for redevelopment of facili ties in rural and urban centres, as I outli ned earl ier.

We have been establishing partnerships with the volunt ary sector through Partners for Health Promotion; with busine ss thro ugh health promotion in the workplace; with communiti es through the establishment of Regional Mental Health Councils, which will provide for participation by com munity groups and individuals in the development of mental health services throughout this province; and with other departments through the development of a healthy public pol icy comm ittee.

We have enlisted the help of the commu nity in reviewing the way our Continuing Care Program operates by inviting responses to a widely distributed consulta tion paper. Mental Health Public Education -funds have been made available to the Canadian Mental He alth Association to co-ord inate public education activities relating to the commun ity transition of menta� health clients from an institutional setting.

Thursday, October 12, 1989 Beyond partnerships, Mr. Chairman, a much needed replacement for a Northern Nursing Station has been approved for construction at Easterville. The Manitoba Heart Fo un dation will receive funding to participate in an innovative pilo t project. Mental Health Crisis Stabil ization Units-f unds have been all ocated to support the continu ed operation of this mental health project. Children's Ho spital Research Fou ndation- resources will be made available to this organization in support of its valued research in childr en's diseases. Mr.

Chairman, we have addressed some longstanding organ ization problems. We have reorgan ized and refocussed the mental health division, giving it a mandate to plan co-operatively with all sectors of the Mental Health Services Commun ity to provide the services that are needed, where they ·are needed, with emphasis on commun ity-based models and six creative demonstration projects. We have re-establ ished a model for a single focus of leader ship in Co mmuni ty He alth Services for Winnipeg.

We have revitalized the board of the Manitoba Health .Services Comm ission by creating a numb er of active subcomm ittees to address un resolved problems. Mr. Chairman, the Standing Comm ittee on Medical Manpower, under the co-chairmanship of Doctors Brian Postl and George Dow, has been given increased funding, a broader membership, and an expanded mandate to attract and re tain physicians for remote and underserviced com mun ities. Manitoba, lik e other provinces, has experienced a shortage of rehabili tation specialists. Dr.

William McDia rmid, a promi nent Winnipeg physician, has just comp leted a review of rehabil itative services in Manitoba, a report that I tabled in the House earlier today. We will be establishing a consistent and co ordinated approach to admin istrative and financial support functions across the ministry in Manitoba Health Services Comm ission and Manitoba Healt h. On yet another front, Mr. Chairman, I am proud to be able to say that we have rebuilt and revital ized partnerships between Go vernment and other sectors of the health care system.

I recall when I first became Min ister of Health, the only people around the health service planning table were Government people. I knew that had to change and it has. Let me give you an example of the new sense of partnership that exists. Recently a unique event occurred. I attended, at the invitation of the Manitoba Medic al Association, a meeting on rural physicians supply. At that meeting representatives of two Go vernment departments, the Col lege of Physicians and Sur geons, the Un iversity of Manitoba, and rural co mmun ities jointl y develo ped strategies to address the shortage of rural physicians.

In the clima te that existed two short years ago, a meeting like this would not have been successful, perhaps not even possible. Today there are regular meetings with the chief execut ive officers of health facili ties which have alr eady begun to yield results in the form· of better linderstaliding of issues and the co operative planning to address them. Meetings with pro fessional associations, in terest groups, non government organizations and interested individuals have also been successful in cl arifying issues and identifying workable solutions. No w, Mr.

Chairman, we all know that a long li st of activities to repair, refocus and revital ize the system is not enough. We must at the same time just take care of business. Following up on our successful AID S Awareness campaign, we will be funding a vigorous AID S Outr each Program to get health information and health promotion messages to those mo st at risk. By building on the national and interna tiona l reputation of the Manitoba Cancer Treatment and Research Fo unda tion at the St. Boni face General Hospital, we will fund a major new research initiative.

We have expanded the numb er of operating room hours at the Health Scienc es Centre. A breast cancer screening program is in its final stages of developm ent. A northern commun ity mental health residence is slated to begin providing services earlier in the new year in Thom pson. A Wo men's Health Services Dir ecto rate will be created in the min istry to co-ord ina te pol ic� development in service planning for women's health issues. A significant initiative in cancer treatment will be un dertaken in early 19 90.

A rural pilo t project will evalua te the use of a new technique for improving childr en's dental health. Final ly, Mr. Chairman, I want to say something about the fut ur e. Repair, refocus, revital ization and maintenance will not be enough to prepare our health system for the challenge of the '90s. We will face new problems in the next decade, perhaps more difficult than the ones we now face. For example, in 19 79 the Province of Manitoba spent $558 million in providing health care.

In 19 89 th ose costs have grown to $1 .55 billion, representing almo st $1 ,500 for each man, woman and child in the province, an increase of approximately 17 8 percent in 10 years. Health costs now account for 32.3 percent of the total provincial budget. Over that same period, our total wealth as a province, as measured by our gross provincial product, has increased by 12 4 percent, and our population by 6 percent. The fact is that health care costs and demands are rapidly outstripping our abili ty to pay for them. We must find ways to control the cost escalation and we must do it now.

Our mo st recent response to the quali ty and cost containment issue has been to call for partnerships with un iversities, business and all sectors of the health commun ity through the establi shment of the new Health Services Developm ent Fund which provides the funds needed to encou rage the develop ment of innovative program ideas that will contribute to cost contain ment while main taining qu ality care. Areas of initia tive, 1792

Thursday, October 12, 1989 inno vative programming, health promo tion, evaluation, systems technol ogy and equipment acquisition will be targeted areas of spending in the Health Services Development Fund. We are also establishing partnerships with the health research com muni ty through the strategic Health Research and Development Fund, and by providing significant additional mon ies to the Manitoba Health Research Council. Mr.

Chairman, other chal lenges will confront us over the next decade: the effects of soci oeco nomic condition on the health of the popula tion; development of new med ical technolog ies and the public and professional expectat ion for their appl ication in Manito ba; the impact of an aging population and its concent rated use of acute extended and com mun ity based services; our aboriginal population and the issue of jurisdictional responsibil ity; the misconception that health care services are endless and free; difficult contract negotiations with organized labour groups and i. professional associations; intense lobb ying by new and , existing special interest groups for lim ited resources; comp lex and difficult questions of biomed ical ethics; the incidence of new diseases such as AID S and their consumption of specialized services and resources; reduced federal transfer payments and their impact on provincial poli cies of fiscal management and health care financing; the maldistribution of medical manpower and shortages in certain specialties; the changing ethnocultur al mix of our popula tion especially in ur ban centres and its impl ication for service delivery.

If we are to meet these challe nges that I have just enunciated to the commit tee, we mu st prepare now. That is why I will be introducing a strategic long-range pla nning initiative which will seek consensus among key pla yers and set common long-term goals and providing guidelin es to take us to the year 2000. The initiative inclu des a comp rehensive planning protocol for Manitoba's health care system that will synchron ize planning now occu rring independently at co mmun ity hospitals, research fou ndations and i. Government organizations.

This protocol will establ ish , a single planning framework within which all health care planning activities in the province will be viewed. Some steps are currently being taken which will take account of three special issues: mul ticultu ral , technology and ethics. * (1 530) A mu lticultu ral health advisory comm ittee will address the specific health services needs of our ethnocu ltural commun ity. An ethics comm ittee will be established to advise me on the appl ication of public polic y to biomed ical issues.

A technology advisory commit tee will review the cost effectiveness and overall efficacies of new health technolo gies as they emerge. As we develop the mechanisms that will enable us to plan for a qual ity health system, Man itobans can con tinue to be proud of in the next decade.

We will 1793 cont inue to be guided by the principl es of firstly, inno vation in the approaches for the delivery of health services; second ly, affordabil ity and the opportun ity to real ign existing resou rces to meet new services requir ements; thirdly , sound management in the appl ication of fiscal accou ntabil ity practices and evaluation to achieve desired obj ectives across the health care system; and fourthly, the developm ent of partnerships to provide business, industry, communiti es and non-Go vernment agencies with opportunit ies to participate actively in health services develop ment within the existing health dolla r framework util izing communit y resources.

Mr. Chairman, the challenge s remain to each and every one of us in this Legislature to meet those growing expectations of the health system in a reasoned and co-operative fashion. I look forward to the contribution of my critics and their assistance in achieving the la rger goals of qu alit y health care for all Manitobans. Thank you. Mr. Chairman: Thank you , Mr. Minister, we will now have the custom ary reply by the critic of the Official Opposition Party, the Hono urable Member for Kild onan. Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): First of all, I would lik e to welcome the NDP Critic for his new role. Mr.

Chairperson, after one and a half years in Go vernment and after spending 1.5 billion, 1,500 per person in Manitoba, the simple question is: are people happy? Last year, if you stood on the street and asked people the simple qu estion, the answer is, no. They have a major concern. They are dissatisfied with the system. They have not seen improvement in the delivery of the health care system in Manitoba. Mr. Chairperson, the simple meaning of un iversal health care system is, as some may put it, it is free. It is not free, the taxpayers are paying; we are all paying for this health care system.

If the un iversal health care system is not readily accessible to all Manito bans, it does not matter whether they li ve in north, south, Winnipeg or other urban centres, that is not a un iversal health care system. I have not seen any improvement for the last 16 months. Mr. Chairman, let us look at each and every area,

section by

section now, the accessibility issue, the accessibility of the primary health care services and why they have to differ in Thom pson as com pared to Roblin, Russell or Winnipeg, Manitoba. Under the average circumstances, at any given time in Manitoba, there are about six to eight com mun ities without a permanent doctor. There are about 28 to 30 com mun ities who are looking for a physician all the tim e. Peo ple cannot wait too long to have impl ementation from this Go vernment and wait and wait and not get any services. For them the simple question is are we getting the right value for our doll ar.

The answer is again, very simple, no. They are not even getting the primary health care services. To me that is not a un iversal health care system. When you have to wait for even primary health care,

Thu rsday, October 12, 1989 and you have to visit 20 to 40 miles just to see a primary care physician, that is not a universal health care system. For the la st 16 months, in this area, there has not been an im provement. The Min ister recently indicated he attended a meeting on the 16 th of Aug ust with the various professional organizations, but he has failed to indicate what the recommenda tions were made by this Min ister and his department. We have not seen any concrete evidence of that.

Of cou rse the communi ties are working together, of cou rse they are worried because they are spending $1. 5 billion, and they are never going to wait for the end of the 16 months. Mr. Chairperson, the recent statement by this Min ister in the news media that the accessibili ty of the primary care physicians can onl y be achieved by their way of doing it is not adequate. There are different ways, acceptable ways, in which people in smaller communi ties are not going to wait for their own personal ideas on how to deal with the system. They want primary care health services. The Min ister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) has failed in that area. I am personally disappointed in that, because we have given him the idea. That idea was, and at that time he said it was, a good idea, but la ter on it just faded away. No one is saying that is the only area one has to look at, but how are you going to provide services at a reasonable cost if you are not going to follo w the norma l circumstances? If there are a lo t of physicians in Winnip eg and other parts of Canada who are looking for jobs, and if just by providing one year of internship would give them the training and also give them a pla ce to practise, why not?

It is a simple qu estion. It is the economic al way of doing things. Spending $23,000 wou ld help us and help a lot of commun ities, and it was a good idea. It was very well received by communi ties all around Manitoba. This is one method. The Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) announc ed that under his increased budget for the health care services to increase the incentive grants, those individuals are not eligible to apply for those grants. This is a shame. He is developing a two-way system here, and there are individuals who are ready to work in medicine.

They are individuals who are coming from outside the countr y and staying in Manitoba for six to eight months, taking advantage of our taxpayers' dolla rs and then leaving. The leadership has to come from the Min ister of Health, which is lacking and it is a waste of taxpayers' mone y. I do not think anyone would accept that. Jus t to say that the college pol icies are right, no one is qu estioning about college pol icies. College has its own regulations. What is the col lege going to do if a communi ty from Roblin or Russell comes and says we need a doctor?

If that doctor fulfills the requirement, a college will give them the lic ence, but the pol icy has to come from this Min ister or this administration to say, wel l, look there are other ways of deal ing with things too, but that is not happening. This is a waste of taxpayers' dol lars, and that is why it is said we do not have an accessible system. We do not have a un iversal health care system which is easily affordable to all Manitobans, and it does not matter where they li ve. Especially when the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) and a large numb er of the Mem bers come from the rural com mun ities, they have failed to show and I have no hesitation in saying that they have failed to improve the rural health care services as far as the physician manpo wer is concerned. Mr. Chairperson, let us look at the services in the area of mental health care. The Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) announc ed a lot of initiatives and some of them were very positive, and we applaud those. He is moving in the right direction at least in that area.

It is a definite improvement from the previous administration when the message going to all the professional groups was, if you do not like Manitoba, leave Manitoba. Many people left Manitoba. I think that message has stopped now. I think that is very positive. Let us look at the bad news. Recently there was a survey done on the mental health care services in Manitoba. These services-the Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) is laughing but that is fine. That is the way he is going to do it, but I will continue with my remarks.

No w the greatest No. 1 concern was shortage of psychiatrists; shortage of mental health professionals; inadequate training of staff working with the mentally ill- * (1 540) An Honourable Member: What do you want him to do, cry? Mr. Cheema: No, I do not want him to cry. I just want him to- An Honourable Member: Okay, well, that is good. You want him to be a Liberal, right down the middl e. Mr. Cheema: -s ure, yes. An Honourable Member: Not too happy, not too sad. Mr. Cheema: Yes. Oka y.

Shortage of beds; inappropr iate pla cement of mentally ill patients; involu ntary admission procedures are poor; poor mental health services for the elderly; la ck of mental health in all rural areas; and overall poor co-ordination of mental health services in Manitoba. The Min ister definitely needs to mo ve into that direction. The people on the street need the services del ivered to them. They just do not need some major comm ittees put in pla ce. Some of the regional comm ittees that the Min ister has put in pla ce have a very big mandate. They do not have the resources to spend.

If you do not have the resources to spend, if you do not have the professionals who are going to provide services, how are you going to del iver the services? That is the simple question to the Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard). Mr. Chairperson, the other issue for rural health care is the funding procedure by the Manitoba Health 17 94

Thu rsday, October 12 , 1989 Services Comm ission. There is a un iversal way of funding the health care services without looking at what kind of patients each and every hospital gets, and what kinds of services they are providing. Some hospitals may have acute care services as comp ared to the chron ically ill patients. There has not been a sense of direction from this administration. They are following the old pol icies. I think they have to change, in some of the aspects, how they fund the various rural hospitals. The typical example is Pine Falls Hospital . It had a numb er of difficultie s during this year.

There was a problem with the nursing staff there. Mr. Chairperson, the Pine Fal ls Ho spital and various other hospitals are in the similar situation. Their bed occu pancy differs from one hospital to another . The emergenc y department differs from one hospital to anoth er, but still the funding procedu res are the same. They are following the same poli cy. They have to change that pol icy to suit the needs of each and every commun ity. That is not being done. I do not call that a un iversal accessible system. Mr.

Chairperson, for the seniors population in rural Manitoba, there are few areas where there are more seniors than the others. The typical example is Dauphin. Da uphin has the maxi mum numb er of seniors population in Manitoba as far as the rural commun ities are concerned . We have not seen any new initiatives com ing from this ministry to set up a program for seniors in that commun ity, provide them the psychogeriatric care, or provide them the day hospital, a good example of a good day hospital func tioning right no w in Manitoba.

That has not been addressed and if you are not going to start now, we cannot wait another 10 years. The Minister has indicated very clearly the population is changing. By the year 2020 the senior population, that baby boom, will peak. We have to start looking at all the programs now so that they can be adjusted. So, as the Min ister has said, he does not have to spend 17 8 percent mo re in five years if the issue is not addressed now. Fifteen hundred dolla rs per person is a lot of mon ey. It is not a tax, it is not a free medical service, it is for the people, paid by the people. Mr.

Chairperson, let us go to the next topic in the home care services in the rural communi ties. There has not been any new initiatives in that respect. We have received a numb er of compla ints from major rural commun ities. People have to go through a lot of red tape now just to apply for the simple home care services. The Mini ster would say, why did you not bring it to my notice? People do not want to put their name on paper. It is very difficult for a senior who is 65 years old, who has worked for Manitoba, to come up in the news media and plead for help. They should not ple ad, they should demand that.

That is their right, that is not being given. I do not call that a universal health care system. Mr. Chairperson, I will go back again to the same. My theme is accessibility, accessibil ity in the City of Winnipeg and other urban centres, both in terms of acute care and chronic care. All the Winnipeg hospitals, all the major hospitals, Victoria, Grace, Seven Oaks, Concord ia, St. Bon iface, if you visit their emergency un its you have to wait for at least one to two hours on a normal day, what I call a norma l day, just during the weekdays, not during the rush period.

If you end up having a myoca rdial infarction or heart attack, sometimes you have to wait longer. Some of the hospital corridor s are full, but again there is no planning to ease the shortage of the emergency space in some of the hospitals. What has been happening only is a band aid approach when the news media brings those issues up. We have tried to bring those issues but we do not have long- term planning from this department. Let us look at how the mo ney is wasted in those hospitals.

If a patient is waiting two to three hours in any emergency, it is costing the Manitoba Health Services Commission indirectly in terms of occu pying the space, it is costing mone y in terms of the nursing profession, the medical profession, other professional care, so in a way we are wasting taxpayers' dolla rs. There are no alternate pla ns to ease that shortage. Also, we should not forget the wastage of time for wages for the people who are going to spend two to three hours in an emergency room. It is costing them mo ney and there is also increased dependency on the other sources.

Nothing has been done, and just to come and say that we have a un iversally accessible system is not true. It is very expensive and again I would say tax dol lars are not being wisely used. The Min ister of Health has indicated, according to him there has been improvement in the waiting period for surgical procedures. I would question him in that respect. If there is improvement, why do people have to wait for 90 days for a simple cardiac surgery. You do not have to. After spending $1. 5 billion you should not be waiting for cardiac care surgery. Also we should not forget we are wasting taxpayers' dolla rs here.

If each one of those patients, they are not sitting at home, they are visiting doctor's office, they are occu pying some of the hospital beds, it is indirectly costing us mo re than it would cost to give them O.R. time for the surgeons who would need to operate upon them, and that is not being done. The Min ister of Health ind icated during the early part of this Session that a comm ittee has been set up to look into the Health Sciences Centre for cardiac surgery, and we are waiting for that report. I am sure that he will supply us during the Estimates. Mr.

Chairperson, let us look at all of the surgical procedures. Not even one surgical procedure you can get the same day, not even one. You have to wait for all surgical procedures. Waiting period depends from one hospital to another, and that is not a un iversally accessible system because of the lack of beds, because of lack of the O.R. space, because of lack of resources. If you are not going to provide them funding, they are not going to provide all those services, and it is costing them indirectly.

It is costing all of us indirectly more mone y than it would cost ju st to provide those essential services when they need them. People do not have to wait for 90 days because there is not a bed available. The impact of this underfunding, whether directly or indirectly , is costing us mor e money. Patients are occupying chronic beds. They are not working, some of them; there are wages lost; the famil ies are going through a crisis because of the inadequate health care system. 1795

Thursday, October 12, 1989 Mr. Chairperson, not only that, when . we are not providing professionals with the required amount of time, professionals are leaving Manitoba. Some of them are. In some of the specialties we are way behind and for surgical procedures people have to wait. I do not think anyone should wait for a simple-i f they need to remove the renal stone. They should not wait for six to eight weeks, that is not acceptable. Some body needs a sameidoscope (phonetic), he does not have to wait.

They are not going to wait because some of the procedures, by the time you wait for six to eight weeks, it is too late. * (15 50) Mr. Chairperson, unfortuna tely we have not seen any planning, how that can be don e in a simple way, to provide mor e ambula tory care facil ities and nothing has been done to promo te that, except there is one indication.

At Seven Oaks Ho spital they are going to use the space which was supposed to be used for obstetrical care for ambula tory care and we welcome that, but it was mismanagement on the part of the NDP to spend millio ns of dol lars in one hospital and clo se down the maternity ward without having a study, without knowing that what is happening in the north end, just cutting if off and taking it for granted that that is their turf. No political Party should ever forget that the health care, they should not fool around with the health care system at all. Mr.

Chairperson, let us deal with the chronic care in Manitoba, and on average, as we have indicated, along with my col leagues and my Leader a numb er of times in this Ho use and outside the Ho use, people are waiting for a pla cement, either for a nursing home or for Home Care services. At an average about 25 to 30 person beds are occupied by chronic-care patients who should be either in their home or in a personal care home, people who want independent, supported living and that is not being provided.

By not providing that, we are not only doing a disservice to those individuals and their famil ies but to the taxpayers of Manitoba, and we are wasting tax dolla rs, and the Min ister better be prepared this time to answer and give us the figures of how much mo ney is being wasted on a daily basis in Manitoba. Mr. Chairperson, let us look at the simple cost of one person occu pying one bed in hospital who should be somewhere else, as just an example.

It would cost a minimum of $15 0 to $200 depending upon what kind of bed that patient is occu pying, and if you multi ply it by 30 persons of those individuals, it is very simple mathematics. You do not have to be a genius or an accountant to look at that. You can be a simple person on the street with any education and say, wel l, we are wasting taxpayers' dolla rs. It is not happe ning. I will ask the Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) why, when Deer Lodge Ho spital had a numb er of beds, a floor is ready there to be occupied, no decision has been made, and that is not a sensible, un iversal health care system.

It is a waste of taxpayers' dolla rs, and I think if we do not address that issue we may not have what we have now. Mr. Chairperson, in the health care system all the politi cians and all the professionals, they talk about their own things, but we forget the family unit and family structure. When a person is in a hospital or suffering from any ill ness, it is having a great impact on the family structure, in terms of the stress, not only mental stress but also the financial stress, and that stress then transmits into the social services system.

So basically we end up paying also for the health care and also for the social services, but still the family structure is not getting the service they deserve, but we have not seen anything, any solid evidence from this ministry of Health, because direction has to come from them. We can only complain because we are not in a position to make decisions, and every time we raise a qu estion in the Ho use the Min ister of Health will say, what are you going to do? We are not in a position to make decisions. You are the ones who are making the decisions and you better be responsible about wasting taxpayers' dolla rs.

Mr. Chairperson, let us look again in terms of chronic care, the home care services, especially in the north end of Winnipeg and other areas of Winnipeg. We have received a numb er of complain ts that there is a problem in the home care services. Initially, we were even misguided by the whole structure of home care, and there is confusion among the public also, because according to the Min ister of Health there is no changing of poli cy, but the public who get the service think there is a change of polic y. I rather bel ieve the person who needs the services, than the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard).- (interjection) - Mr. Chairman: Order, pl ease. Mr. Cheema: When a person 1s m the hospital his family is under stress, and that again, as I repeated earlier, is causing not only mental stress but financial stress, and it is not uncommon for many famili es to mo ve out of Manitoba. Maybe their grandson or their son li ves in B.C. or in Ontario. They have to come back and forth to look after their parents who ha ve contrib uted to Manitoba's economy and to build Manitoba and they are not getting the service they deserve. I do not call that a universally accessible health care system. Mr.

Chairperson, seniors seems to be the area where this min istry has ignored them, not only in terms of home care services but also the Pharma care deductibles-gone up. Mr. Chairperson, it is enough to have the problems of Bill C-32 and now we have the increase in the cost of drugs because of the GST. It is written very clear, if you read the whole thing, that the non-prescription drugs are going to be taxable, and if any simple person, you do not have to be a pharmacist to un derstand that or medical do ctor to und erstand or a nu rse to understand. You could simpl y say that one drug may be -(interject ion) - Mr.

Chairman: Order, pl ease. It is a simple thing that each Manito ban spending $20 on a non-pr escription drug, if they have to pay 9 percent more, that is not a joke, and if the Minister of Ju stice (Mr. Mcc rae) is not serious about that or if he 1796

Thursday, October 12 , 1989 is making a joke of such a serious situation, I think I- Mr. Chairman: Order, pl ease. Mr. Cheema: You know what the answer for that question is? Go on the street and ask people who have to pay 9 percent more on all of those things and then you will have the answer, and also the answer will be given to the Min ister of Finance at elect ion time very well. He should know that. -(interjection) - No, not you, the federal Minister of Finance, but that is your Party and you have to defend them. Mr. Chairman: Order, please. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, let us look- Mr.

Chairman: Order, ple ase. I would ask Mem bers who want to carry on a private conversation to withdraw to the back of the room . The Mem ber for Kildonan. � Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, let me conti nue with the term "accessibility." Let us talk about the obstetrical services in Winnipeg and in Manitoba. Continuous ly, at St. Boniface Hospital, the obstetrical floor has been cl osed a numb er of times. Can the Minister of Health tel l us what it would take for him to make changes? He has not made any progress at all. He is wasting taxpayers' dol lars.

Why I say that is because people are being transferred from one hospital to another, and then the babies are sometimes coming back. It is a waste of taxpayers' dol lars. That is not a universal health care system which is affordable. We are wasting taxpayers' dol lars because one of the hospitals in Winnipeg, Misericordia Ho spital, has to go on their own and have a campaign to tell people to come to the hospital-w e have the best delivery. The Min ister of Heal th did not take any initiative.

It was his responsibili ty because he is dealing with taxpayers' dolla rs not only the Misericordia Ho spital. • (1 600) • Mr. Chairperson, we have not seen any pla nning in terms of whether this Government wants to central ize services or decentralize services for obstetrical care in Manitoba. They do not know. You are right, they do not kno w, because they do not want to take the right stand that may not be particul arly popular. They are jus t concerned about their votes. They are no t concerned that taxpayers are paying 1.5 billion. Mr.

Chairperson, recently there was a complaint out of the Health Sciences Centre, a general complaint about the intensive care nursery. The issue should have been addressed for the la st year but that was ignored until it took the Mem ber for Logan (Ms. Hemphill) to bring the issue to the floor . A sad situation, but that is not uncommon or only in the Health Sciences Centre. The St. Boniface nursery is not experiencing the best times. There is also overcrowding there. They are supposed to have eight to 10 babies, but sometimes they have 12 to 14 babies in the intensive care nursery.

The intermediate care nu rsery is also clos ed because of ill pla nning, because they do not know how to provide obstetrical services in Manitoba. Nothing has been done from this mini stry. Mr. Chairperson, let me just go through some of the initiatives that this Min ister said that they have taken. Fi rst of al l, on prevention, which is supposed to be and should be the cornerstone of any health care system, not only in Manitoba, but in any part of the world. Ju st providing $500,000 and evaluating them after one year does not make any sense.

Also providing funds out of the lo ttery revenues, you should not fund, you should not fund, I will repeat, a un iversal health care system on the backs of a few people who are part of the lottery system. It is very clear that the lo wer- and middle income people spend lo ttery money. Those people should not be responsible to fund our un iversal health care system. We have seen little in terms of communic able diseases. It has been a sad story for this Go vernment. Why is it a sad story? Because they just watch and see what other people are doing but do not look at the scientific answer to the AID S question .

The Minister of Health has failed . He has failed to capital ize on $50,000 which is available right now to use for a comp rehensive program for an AID S campaign. It is available from the Min ister of Health at the federal level. Finally he made some good changes and everyone has shown interest, but the Minister of Health has not shown interest. Even the Winnipeg polic e said it is a good idea. All the professionals say it is a good idea, but no one in any Government, in any pol itical Party should have his own moral and personal views impo sed upon the pub lic.

It is the public's mo ney and should be spent in the best possible way. Mr. Chairperson, let us see what the alternatives this admin istration has put forward for the la st one and a half year. There was a qu estion raised today by the NOP Critic about the Klin ic. We have raised that qu estion several times. Klinic is just one exampl e of the com mun ity-based health care system, but this admin istration has failed to show any thrust in that because it is a polit ical dec ision, it is not a rational decision.

That is why I am saying we are wasting taxpayers' doll ars because communi ty clinic s, such as on Broadway, does provide a very essential service. Rather than expanding the services to the rest of Winnipeg and other parts of rural Manitoba, they are sending the wrong message that they do not have any pla nning and continue to waste taxpayers' doll ars. Mr. Chairperson, there are a numb er of other deficiencies. Those we will be discussing during the detailed questioning.

But I would offer him one advice and also help from my own caucus and all my colleagues that when we bring a practical proposal, he should accept that and just not waste taxpayers' doll ars, because health care should not be fooled by one person or the other, it is a very important for all of us. So we will support him in any positive initiatives now and in the future. We look forward from him any new plans for the year 2000 and after, so that we do not have to face 17 8 percent rise in another five years. Thank you , Mr. Chairperson. Mr. Chairman: I thank the critic for those remarks.

We will no w hear from the critic of the Secon d 1797

Thursday, October 12, 1989 Op positio n Part y, the Ho nourable Member for Thompson. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Chairperson, I must say, on my fi rst day as Health Critic, it is going to be an interesting experience going straight into Estimates. I bel ieve last year we spent 40 hours in Estimates, certainly it is time well spent, this is a major department. Certainl y there are a lot of qu estions that will be asked I know by the Opposition of this Go vernment's actions.

I will indicate I do appreciate the comments from the Opposition Critic and the comments from the Mi nister, which were somewhat different from the comments he made in the Ho use. I hope his generous statements in the comm ittee reflected mor e truly the sentiments he has about my appointment. I am not sure, after Estimates, though whether he will be saying the same sort of thing because, quite frankly, I am going to be asking some pretty tough qu estions to this Mini ster and to this Government. Let us look at what has happened since this Go vernment has come into office.

Let us look at this Go vernment's record in terms of health care. I would say if you were to sum marize it, you would say there have been a few initiatives, Mr. Chairperson. In mo st cases, the mo st positive ini tiatives were recyc led initiatives that had been put forward by the NOP. For example, the Health Services Development Fund , which is a recycled version of the fund that the Min ister criticiz ed when he was in Oppo sition that was annou nced by the NOP, in fact, he has recycled it. Its a bit of a

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-48
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf 48.pdf
Language	en
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