Manitoba Hansard — 6 May 1993 (Sitting 57, 35th Legislature, 4th Session)

35-4-57

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Third Session -Thirty-Fifth Leg islature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 42 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLII No. 57 - 1:30 p.m., THU RSDAY, MAY 6, 1993 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERIL LI, Marianne CHEE MA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERK ACH, Leonard, Hon. DEW AR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. ED WARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ER NST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GIL.LESH AMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HIC:KES, George LAMOU REUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNE SS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PAlLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROGAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Con rad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE , Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWC HUK, Rosann Vacant CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Hei ghts Radisson The Maples Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Char leswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Cresce ntwood Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River Rupertsland PARTY.

Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liber al PC Liber al PC NDP Liber al NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

2590 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, May 6, 1993 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDI NGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Oscar Lathlln (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Harold Bennett, Franklin Magnusson, Leslie Mowatt and others requesting the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) to consider restoring the funding of the Northern Fishermen's Freight Assistance Program to the level it was at in 19 90-91 . * * * Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Marion Ramsay, Gerald Sinclair, Juliet Burke and others requesting the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider restoring funding of the Student Social Allowances Program . * * * Mr. Cllf Evans (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Wallace Mowat, Tom Mowat, Ernest Mowat and others requesting the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) to consider restoring funding of the Northern Fisherm en's Freight Assistance Program to the level it was at in 19 90-91 . *** Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East ) : Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Sylvia Kostiw, Michelle Kostiw, Charlene Baraniuk and othe rs requesting the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 19 93-94 budget. Mr. Gregory Dewar (Sel kirk): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Dave Gregotski , Sharon Kumps, Paul Kumps and others requesting the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 19 93-94 budget. Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin) : Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Melvyn Taylor, Ross Carwahaw, Tracy Strahl and others requesting the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 19 93 -94 budget. *** Mrs. Sharon Carst alrs (leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Ted Smitke, Grace Smitke, Telmo Reis and others requesting the government of Manitoba to consider keeping the Misericordia Hospital open as an acute care facility. READI NG AND RECEIVI NG PETITI ONS Mr.

Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Clif Evans). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WH ERE AS fisheries are a vital resource industry in rural and northern Manitoba; and WHERE AS there are over 800 commer cial fishermen netting some 12 million pounds of fish each year on Lake Winnipeg alone; and WHER EAS the high costs of supplies and shipping fish to ma rket are putting ever more pressures on the commer cial fishing industry in this province; and WH ERE AS the provincial government reduced the No rthern Fisherm en's Freight Sub sidy Assistance Program for commer cial fishing by over $90,000 in 19 91 ; and WH ERE AS this subsidy is vital to the survival of the commercial fishing industry; and WHER EAS restoring the Freight Subsidy to the level of previous years would make fishing in northern Manitoba more com petitive and help ensure the survival of the industry.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humb ly pray that the Legi slative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to req uest the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) to consider restoring funding

2591 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 6, 19 93 of the Northern Fishermen's Freight Assistance Pro!�ram to the level it was at in 19 90-91 . ••• Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mrs. Carst airs). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the under signed reside nts of the province of Manitoba humb ly sheweth that : WHERE AS the Misericordia General Hospital has served Winnipeg for over 95 years; and WHERE AS the Misericordia General Hospital has a long record of dedication and service to its loca l com mu nit y and the broader Winnip eg commu nity; and WHERE AS the Misericordia General Hospital is identified by the residents in the surrounding area as "their hospital"; and WHERE AS the Misericordia Hospital plays an integral

part in maintaining and promoting the health of the community; and WHERE AS the Misericordia Hospital provides diverse services including em ergency, ambulatory care, diagnostic and inpatient services, acute and chronic care which are vital to the community; and WHERE AS the Misericordia Hospital is currently engaged in developing innovative and progressive commu nity-based outreach programs; and WHERE AS the Misericordia Hospital is ideally located to be within the "hub" of the health care delivery network for Winnipeg.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly urge the government of Manitoba to consider keeping the Misericordia Hospital open as an acute care facility. *

(1335) INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 30- The Vul nerable Persons Living with a Mental Disability and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst), that Bill30, The Vulnerable Persons Living with a Mental Disability and Conse quent ial Amendmen ts Act (Loi concernant les personnes vulnerables ayant une deficience mentale et apportant des modifications correlatives a d'autres lois), be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time.

His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been advis ed of the cont ents of the bill, recommends it to the House. I would like to table the me ssage. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Gue sts Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the atte ntion of honourable memb ers to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon from the Warren Collegiate, sixty Grade 11 students under the direction of Mr. Jake Wiebe and Mr. John Smith. This school is located in the constituency of the honour able Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns).

Also this afternoon, from the Immanuel Chr istian School, we have fifteen Grades 6 and 7 students under the direction of Mr. Heres Snyder. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli). On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUE STION PERIOD No-Fault Auto Insurance Appe al Process Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition) : Mr. Speaker, my qu estion is to the Premier (Mr. Rlmon).

Today's announcemen t by the government dealing with no-fault, com ing five years after the Kopstein report and over three years after the Tillinghast report on the savings potential for motorists, we believe is somewhat overdue. Mr. Speaker, we believe that the costs that have been outlined in the material provided by the gove rnment are fairly consistent with industry cost projections to the year 2000. Our concerns now are going to be dealing with the fairness of the system that the government will be implemen ting on behalf of all motoris ts in Manitoba.

One of the areas that we think is very vague in the government's announcem ent today is the whole issue of the appeal process, the so-called independent appeal process.

May 6, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE AS SEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 2592 Can the Prem ier today outline, given that the fa irness and integr ity of the system is cruc i al and the appeal process is a very impo rtant component pa rt, if not the keystone pa rt of th i s program , what kind of independent appeal process is conte mp lated in government policy for th is new plan? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the admin istration of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): Mr. Speaker, the member is correct.

It is an integral part to the cred ibility of any plan such as th is, and we will be ver y consc ious of tha t in put t ing togeth er recom men dat ions that will be introduced and legislation that will outline that ma tte r.

First of all, you will need to make sure that the people are appo inted for a cred ible length of time so that they can have some assu rance of the respo ns ibility and the knowledge that they will be able to bu ild up, that they will be people of quality and people who will be able to hear any of the compla ints that come forward and deal with them in a comple te ly inde pendent and dispass ionate manner, to make sure that it is fa ir to those who would appeal.

I would only rem ind the member that the appeal upon wh ich we are-1 presume he is ask ing, and the one to which I am respond ing- is the final appeal, that there will be a ser ies of steps pr i or to anyone des iring to go to th i s final appeal, where they will have an oppo rtun i ty to appeal with in the system as to concerns they mi ght have about how the plan is treat ing them . Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the mater i al that is be ing sent to all the motor ist s-! assume in Man i toba explaining the program , the government and the corporat ion, claims that they are go ing to be an independent appeal process.

They do not say who will establish the appeal pr ocess. In Man itoba, we have examples of an Electoral Boundar ies Comm iss ion, which is set in law, an institutionalized independent body. We have the Ombudsman's off ice, which is appo inted by th is legislature as opposed to cab inet. We have bod i es like the Clean Env ironment Comm ission wh ich are Order-in-Counc i l appo intments, and we have bod ies that are int ernal to organ izat ions such as the appeal body and the Workers Com pensat ion. I would like to ask the government: Who will be th i s independent body '?

Who will appo int them and how will they be independent and be perce ived to be independent, because that is very cruc ial to th i s program ? Mr.Cummlngs: Mr. Speaker, I th ink I can assume that the member is support ive of the program in general, and he has some spec ific quest ions about how an appeal me chan ism would ope rate [interject ion ) Well, are you say ing that he is not support ive of the introduct iorH:l id you caucus it? Mr. Speaker, as I indicated to the member in the introduct ion of the legi slat ion, we will make it very clear on what grounds a panel will be established.

I want to tell you that the pr inc iples and the poli cy which I want to see incorporated in that process will be as I outl ined, tha t we guar antee the independence of the appo intees and that they are able to operate on a given per i od oftime withoutfear of any repr isals, so they will be fully independent. * (1 340) Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the mi nister did not answer the quest ion. He has the Kopste in report that made three or four recomme ndat ions on an appeal process. He recom men ded an independent arb itrat ion board; he argued for the appeal of that process to the cou rts.

The mi nister has those recomm endat ions, but it is very important that the mi nister tell us today: Who will appo int the appeal body? Will it be placed in law as an indepe nden t body like the Electoral Boundar ies Comm iss ion; will it be a body appo inted by Order-in-Counc il; will it be a body appo inted by th i s legislature like the Ombudsman; or will it be somebody internal to the corporat ion? I th ink those are fundamen tal quest ions that I would have thought would have been addressed in the government's announcement today, or in the House today in the quest ions we are ra ising. Mr.

Cummings: The member is try i ng to have me introduce the legislation piece by piece today. The fact-[interject ion] Mr. Speaker, he knows full well, if he has made compar isons with the Quebec plan or other plans, that there needs to be an und isputed independence of the comm i ss ion. I assure him and I assure Man itobans, that when we introduce that legislation he will be sat isfied with the independence that we will be present ing. Mr. Speaker: The honou rable leader of the Oppos ition, with a new quest ion. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I did not th ink we would have to pursue th is for a new quest ion.

25H3 LEGISL ATIVE AS SEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA May 6, 19 93 Mr. Speak er , it is very vague in the document that is presented to us today. We are already getting phone calls, as legislators , on the newscast , about who will deal with these matters , who will decide. Obviously, not on the detail of the Kopstein report , but people want to know and we would like to know , what is the government policy? Will this body be established- An Honourable Member: Independent. Mr. Doer: The word "independent." Some bodies are independent , Mr.

Speaker , and some are mor e independent than others , so perhaps we can ask the question specifically. Will the inde pendence of the appeal body -(interjection] If the Premier (Mr. Rlmon) wants to answer one of the questio ns , he could stand up and answer the questions. If he does not have a policy on this , he will remain silent like he has. Will the independent appeal body on this very im portant change , a change in concept which we support -[interjection] We will adjudicate the fairness when we see the implemen tati on of the fairness.

Will this independent appeal body- An Honourable Member: How can you support the bill if you have not seen it , Gary? Mr. Doer: 1 said the concept , my friend. I know that is foreign to Liberals, to have any concepts , because the y change them every hour on the hour. I! ; it the policy of the government that the independent appeal process , which is articulated on page 7 of the document that they are releasing to mo torists today- will that indep endent appeal process be appoint ed by legislation similar to the Electoral Boundaries Commis sion of Manitoba? Mr. Cummings: Mr.

Speak er , as with many other aspects of this plan, we have said that this will be a made-in-Manitoba plan for the best interests of Manitobans. There are a numb er of mode ls, including the ones that the member is suggesting, that we are considering. In the introduction of the legislation, I guarantee yo UI that if he is willing to take an objective look at what we have in the legislation , then he will be satisfied with the independence that we will present. • (1 345) Mr .. Doer: Mr. Speak er , you will excuse us if we say the answers of the minister are starti ng to contradict one another.

Two answers ago , the minister men tioned that they looked at the Quebec no-fault plan. Now he is saying we are going to have a made-in-Manitoba plan. Then the minis ter said , we are st ill considering some of these matters. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon): Did the mi nister have the government approve a major shift in policy on bodily injuries without determining the independent system of appeal that would be utilized by the citizens of this province? Can the Premier please tell us what type of independent appeal process will be in place? Will it be appointed by the corporati on?

Will it be appointed by the Legis lature? Will it be appoin ted by Order in-Council, or will it be institutionally appointed in legislation like the Electoral Boundaries Commis sion? It is a very, very crucial part to the fairness of any bodily injury change in plan in Manitoba. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speak er , I enunciated the parameters for independence that I think should satisfy the concerns of that member. Unless he wants to wait in the bushes and be dissatisfied with whatever we bring forward in legislation-! think that is what he is trying to do.

He supports the plan but he has to find something to worry about so he is going to lay in the bushes , and no ma tter what this government brings forward, he is going to be critical. It will be an independent commis sion that will respond to these concerns. I invite him to wait until the introduction of the bill. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speak er , the Kopstein report five years ago articulated the cost projections and articulated an independent appeal process that would be appealable to court. Is the government accepting the Kopstein recommendation? Is it rejecting the Kopstein re commen dation?

What is the policy the government must have? I suggest to the gover nment , you cannot make a quantum change in the whole way in which the tort system is utilized for bodily injuries without having a truly articulat ed and known system of appeal. Would the government please tell us , in all those hundreds of briefings that have taken place in the five years they have worked on this plan, what will be truly independent for the appeal process? The Legislature and the people of Manitoba have a right to know. Please come forward and be clean about the process you will have in place. Mr. Cummi ngs : Mr.

Speak er , the people of Manitoba I think have a lot more understanding than the Leader of the Opposition is beginning to display.

May 6, 19 93 LEG ISL ATIVE AS SEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 2594 Mr. Speaker, we announced today that we are moving to a plan that will restrict tort. We presented examples of the type of coverage that would be available so that people can debate the benefits pro and con. We will introduce all the details, including the concerns that the member is raising when we bring the legislation to the floor of this Chamber. Mr . Speaker, I believe he will be satisfied at that time. No-Fault Auto Insurance Benefits Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): I must confess that I am not so quick to suppo rt this plan.

I am a little disappointed, frankly, by the NDP who seem to be so ready to give up on something they built that did provide benefits for all Manitoba and exchange it for something that is going to reduce the benefits available to Manitobans.

Now, I would like the mi nister to cast back two short years when he was questioned about the no-fault proposals that were contained in Kopstein, and he said-"he" being the member of the NDP who was raising the question about no-fault-that he does not, however, talk about the fact that a great portion of that mon ey-that is, the savings that accrued to the insurance company under no-fault-would come from the pockets of those who have a right to be reimbursed. That is the issue here, Mr. Speaker.

The fact is insurance companies in jurisdictions that have a form of no-fault accrue large profits, and the source of those profits would seem to come from the benefits that are available to people who are injured. [interjection] Now, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) from his seat makes the comment about lawyers. Lawyers are less than a third of the costs , and if he wants to control lawyers' costs, there are ways to do- Mr. Speak er: Order, please. The honourable member for Osborne, with your question, please. Mr.

Alcock: My question to the mi nister is: What has changed in his understand ing of the way the system works, and how is he going to ensure that people are not protect ed? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the admin istration of The Man itoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): I hope I misunder stood the question. I believe he said, how would I assure that people were not protect ed. The fact is I intend to assure that people are protected. Mr. Speaker, the benefits that are outlined this morning, if adopted by this Legislatu re-and I invite the debate and the discussion that we are now entering into.

The benefit levels we proposed in the discussion this morning are very generous, and, in fact, those who are injured with loss of income, they will be reimbur sed. The income replacement as we outlined would cover 90 percent of the population of this provi nce . All other ben efits are virt ually uncapped.

I think the member may well have a little fun at my expense about the factthat I have always cast about for other ways of containing costs of automobile insurance in this province, and I have said on many occasions, which I fully acknowledge, that I believed for a considerable length of time that there were other ways by which this government or any other government could cap costs, but we believe that is not the case. * (1 350) Private Sector Involvement Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, another feature of this, and the mi nister mentions it in the pamphlet they have prepared for this release, is the increased involvement or the reintroduction of private-sector insurance companies to provide insurance for those people who feel they requ ire some top-up. I would like to ask the mini ste r: What are his projections about the extent of private -sector insurance involvement in this province as a result of this change? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the admin istration of The Man itoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated a momen t ago, the containment of cost is one of the very primary concerns we have in terms of main taining future quality insurance in this provinc e and makin g sur e tha t people have adequate coverage. Mr. Spea ker, the plan we put forward this morning, the outline, indicates that 90 percent of the people in this province will be covered by a $55,000 maximum. That will cover 90 percent of the wage earners in this province, and it is correct to say that those who wish to have insurance beyond that would likely have to go to the private sector to obtain additional extension.

2595 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 6, 19 93 I would remind the memb er that all of the benefit s that flow within the plan are without cap, lifetime with c,ut cap. If he is asking me how large an extent of an involvement do I see, I would look to the Quebec plan, and I would inquire what happened in Quebec. The fact is, Mr. Speaker, there are a number of groups that are involved in group plans, but the volume of private additional in surance that is so•ld is very small. Mr. Alcock: Well, Mr. Speaker, that view is not shared by the Canadian Automobile Association in their oppo sition to this plan.

Revenue Transfers Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Let us speak about Quebec for a minute. Quebec has begun to use the profit s derived by the reduction in benefit s to people in Quebec as a form of taxation as the y tran sfer the reve•nue s from the in surance corporation into gen c3ral revenue. Will thi s mini ster commit that thi s government will not undertake such a tran s fer? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the adminis tration of The Man itoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): Mr.

Speaker, I would be only too pleased to put that argument to bed completely, becau s e there is a claus e in the MPIC Act which I intend to make sure applies to all aspect s of the corporation and that clearly indicate s that govc3rnment s , pre sent or future, cannot strip profit s for other use. No-Fault Auto Insurance Implementation Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I would like to add re ss a question to the Minis ter re sponsible for MPIC. We have asked this mini s ter for almo s t five years whe•n he wa s going to im plement the Kopstein report 's main recom men dation of a no-fault plan.

On April 28, 19 92, in the legislative com m ittee, and it is reported on page 42, the min ister stated, and I am quoting: "You will not be seeing initiative s on my pa rt to move to a no-fault insurance." My que stion ther efore to the mini ster is-{interjection ] In fact, there is another one, too; there are tw o-why did the mini s ter not act sooner to imp lement the no-fault sys tem and avoid the dram atic premium in crea ses such as the 9.5 percent to 13 .5 percent inc rea s e that wa s experienced this year ? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the admin istration of The Man itoba Public Insur anc e Corporation Act): I readily acknowledge, as I said before today, that I was not the fir s t to advocate this is the wa y one should deal with ri sing co sts to the corporation and that I believe that other method s of control would do the job. But, Mr. Speaker, we have now seen how dramatically the increa s e of bodily injury is im pacting on the cost of in surance in this province, and the majority of those co sts are going for noneconomic loss . That is very im portant for all of us to examine.

A ma jority of tho s e dollars are going for noneconomic loss, and that is where we believe there is a good rea son to be able to mak e sure that tho s e who are dramatica lly in jured or seriou sly in jured are fully , completely taken care of, but some of the s e other losses have been less than re spon sible. • (1 355) Mr. Leonard Evans: I am glad the mini s ter ha s finally seen the light, Mr. Speaker. Benef its Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East) : Is the mini ster tr uly sati sfied that the announced benefit

schedule that wa s released today is fair ? How doe s it compare with other jurisdictions that have a no-fault sy stem? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the admin istra tion of The Man itoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): Mr. Speaker, the information ha s been gathered from about 17 different jurisdiction s acro ss the United State s which have variou s aspect s of thi s progr am. The program it self is, in a broad sense, following the Quebec plan. I would indicate that the figure s that are included in the propo sals that are brought forward have been examined in the light of Manitoba condition s.

Firs t of all, the income replacement is at a higher level than it is in Quebec. The other benefit s that we are offering are all in exce s s of what is offered in Quebec, as I under stand the plan. We know, without any doubt, that if we do not take the s e type s of dramatic action s, we will see a doubling of the rates by the year 2000.

May 6, 19 93 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 2596 Fairness Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): My final question : How will the min ister ensure that ce rtain group s in Manitoba are treated fairly by the Manitoba Public Insurance Corpor ation? I am thinking, for example, of senior citizens; I am thinking, for exam ple, of homemakers. How can we ensure that they are going to be treated fairly by Autopac? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the admin istration of The Man itoba Public Insurance Corporation Act) : Mr.

Speaker, all of those groups that the member has pointed to-first of all, we need to remember that in the plan the economic losses are replaced. There are po rtions of the plan that are mean t to be very flexible in terms of making sur e tha t special situa tions are addressed. For example, I believe the benefits that are outlined in the case of a homemaker, for example, are more generous than any plan that we know of and mo re generous than what would be acquired under a private plan, if there was a com petitive plan.

Those are the types of approaches that we have taken in making this recom me ndation to assure that specific groups are in fact treated bette r. Manitoba Housing Authority Subsidized Housing-Stu dents Mr. George Hlck es (P oint Doug las) : Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Housing. When the Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey) eliminated the bursary program for the students this week, she left almost 5,000 students ineligible for grants. According to the Manitoba Housing Authority, students who do not receive bursaries are not eligible for the special student rental fees.

They further indicated that they had no idea what the im pact of the minist er ' s elimination of the bursary program would mean to students' rental rates. Can the Minister of Housing tell this House what im pact the bursary cuts will have on students living in Manitoba Housing Authority units? Hon. Jim Ernst (Min ister of Hous ing): Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice and report back to the House. Manitoba Housing Authority Subsidized Housing-Stu dents Mr. Geo rge Hl ckes (Point Doug las) : Mr.

Speaker, will the Minister of Education explain to this House why she did not consult with her colleague the Minister of Housing, so that he could ensure that staff at the Manitoba Housing Authority were aware of the im pact of her regressive changes to the bursary program? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Let me just make it clear again to the honourable member that students, yes, will not be receiving bursaries, but they will still in fact be eligible for a guaranteed loan. The money, Mr. Speaker, is still available to student s wishing to study at the post -secondary level.

In addition, we have retained for the most needy students, a bursary, the third level. * (1 400) Mr. Hlckes: Mr. Speaker, can she confirm that some of the poor students may no longer be eligible for subsidized housing under the new program? Would she tell this House how many students will be affected by the change? If she does not know the answer, could she ask the Premi er (Mr. Filmon)? He should know. He is their- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, let me tell my honourable friend again how the system works.

The system is based on need ; it is based on number of weeks of study and the amount of money require d, what the tuition is. Students receiving student financial aid, first, starti ng at the Canada Student Loan level, is based on need. When that does not quite fill the need, then they move into assistance through the Manitoba Student Financial Assistance. Where there is cont inued need for the most needy students, we have built in a bursary syste m. No-Fault Auto Insurance Minor Claims Cap Mrs. Sharon Carstalr s (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, the government today made a ma jor announcement with respect to coverage that will be available to Manitobans under the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. In their pamphlet which they are going to distribute, they indicated that almost 80 percent, indeed 80 percent,

259i' LEGISL ATIVE AS SEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA May 6, 19 93 of the claims before MPIC were, in their words, minor claims. They said minor claims are the main prob iem . They said, of 20,000 injury claims, 16 ,000 were of whiplash. Of those minor claims, almost all of them are settled for less than $1 5,000, many for much less than that. Can the mi nister responsible tell the House why it is they chose a no-fault insurance program that would affect every claim and did not cap it at a $1 5,000 level, which would have taken care of almost all of these minor claims? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the ad min istration of The Manit oba Public Insurance Corporation Act): Mr. Speaker, the member raises a good and legitimate point. It also is a point that deserves careful response because very often under these types of programs which we have• looked at in other jurisdictions, what happens is, where there is a mone tary threshold beyond which the person may decide to sue, this very often drives a situation that encourages the claimant to drive towards that threshold so that they may then get into the tort syst em. Mr.

Speaker, when we looked at the financial projections we have that see us, by the year 2000, being in a virtually unafforda ble situation for insurance in this province, we felt we wanted a plan that was to tally predictable and that we could, ac cording to the known stati stics, be able to show containment of the costs, and at the same tim e, prot ,ect everyone who was legitimately injured and needed help, either thr ou gh health care, rehabilitat ion or income replacement-that they are fully and adequately covered. That is the reason we went this direction. Public Utilities Board Review Mrs.

Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, we are very prepared to support the gov ernment in initiatives that protect Manitobans and protect them equally, but we do not believe that this particular initiative, as it is so laid out, protects people equally. That has to be the serious question that is put before legislators in this province.

I have to tell you, on the basis of the information here, not only would I take out private insurance but I would take out private insurance for my two daughters, who certainly do not ma ke incomes of $50,000 a year, to protect them against future earnings which are not protected in this particular prog ram tha t has been annou nced by the government. Will the min ister tell the House today why he is unwilling to take this whole proposal to the Public Utilities Board to allow them to mak e an evaluation and judgment that this party will abide by?

Why are they unwilling to do that in order to ensure that there is absolute fairness in this initiative? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the admin istra tion of The Man itoba Pub lic Insurance Corporation Act): Mr. Speaker, first of all, the Public Util ities Board will review the rate-setting process, as is required by the result of this change in the proposal of MPIC. I assure you, Mr. Speaker, that it seem st om e that the member ' s question is based on the assum ption that she believes the present system is fair. There is an inherent unfairness to certain aspects of the existing syst em .

It can occur that it is a bit of a gamble as to who hits you and what the coverage may be, even if you do go to court. It may very well be that you co u ld be dram atically injured, you could be of high income, but the person whom you intend to sue does not have the insur ance or the wherewithal to cover your suit. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, this plan covers the nee ds -the health, the me dical needs, the rehabilitation needs, salary replacement. I think this is very fair. Mrs. Cars talrs: Well, Mr. Speaker, the minis ter says it is a gamble. Let us take a look at the gamble.

If I on this scheme drive out of the Legislature today and I get hit by a drunken driver and we both become paraplegics, we both end up with the same amount of money, even though one person was completely at fault. One person was driving under the influence and in violation of the law. Mr. Speaker, I want to have someone provide me with an independent analysis as to whether this program is fair. The Minister of High ways (Mr. Driedger) from his seat yells out, that is why we are all here. Well, we are also all here to protect those who cannot protect themselves.

The imp o rtance of esta blishing a fair policy is to make sure that we are not doing this for political motivat ion. Mr. Speaker, will the mi nister tell this House today that he is prepared to go to the Public Utilities Board, allow an independent evaluation of this program and to report back to the citizens of the province of Manitoba ?

May 6, 19 93 LEG ISL ATIVE AS SEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 2598 Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speak er , I hope she does not want to turn policymaking of this Legislature over to Public Utilities. The me mber assum es-and this is a very im portant point -that there will not be any provisions to deal with imp aired driving. That is an assum ption that she made without any basis , Mr. Speaker. This gover nment , this Attorney General (Mr. McCrae) has taken great pains to make sure that imp aired operation of a motor vehicle is not condoned in this province.

I can tell you that when we introduce the legislation, there will be nothing in that legislation that will undermine the work that is going on in terms of protecti on of the public from im paired drivers. Mr. Speak er , when she talks about what would happen if the two people are both seriously and dramatically injured, first of all, they will receive all of their costs complete with an income replacement , and their costs will be without cap.

Today , if you were at fault, you would only receive a maximum of $1 9,000 under our existing program , and you would fall on the welfare and the social assistance and the public health programs of this province. Mr. Speak er , this plan does address the aspects of that , and I believe that puts the other aspect of fairness into it which the member may not have contemplated. Student Social Al lowances Program Funding Elimin ation Justification Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr.

Speak er , when the government cut 1 ,200 people from student social allowance , they pot entially eliminated 40 classrooms of students in Manitoba. This is the equivalent of closing three out of four inner-city schools, Children of the Earth , Argyle and Gordon Bell-the total population. This would be quite a legacy for a gove rnment which claims that education is the key to the future of Manitoba. I would like to ask the Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey) : Could she explain to us again the rationale, the reason , for this policy? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services) : Mr.

Speaker , this program was one that was unique to the province of Manitoba that other provinces felt that they could not offer. We looked at the very difficult budget decisions that we had to make and this was one of them . I know the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) has frequently said that governments have to ma ke tough decisions. This was a decision we made. It was a program that does not exist elsewhere in Canada , and there are other alternatives for those students that we have articulated before. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Speak er , last time I asked that question it was the difficult choices answer.

Today it was the race for the bottom answer. Student Social Al lowances Program Student Employment Prospects Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Could I ask the Minister of Education to tell us about the fate of these students. What are their realistic prospects of finding the part-time jobs that now are in fact their only hope for any change in their lives? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speak er , again , students-and I believe the member may be referring to summer job prospects.

I am not sure if she is also referring to prospects through the year , but we do have in place programs that this government is supporting to assist students to help find th eir summe r em ployment. It will be assistance to help students find summer employment that may be related to future careers , or also em ploym ent within government. If the memb er has an additional question , then I will hear from her. * (1 41 0) Decentr alization Office Space Avallabl llt y-A rborg Mr. Cllf Evans (Interlake): Mr.

Speak er , this government announced in 19 89 what they called a decentralization program , that they would provide economic benefits to rural and nort hern areas. What we have had are jobs leaving communi ties , such as Arborg and Ashern, with government offices sit ting in Arborg emp ty , wait ing for these decentralized jobs. I want to ask the Premier (Mr. Rlmon) : Why is the government building in Arborg sitting one-third em pty while mo ney is being spent by this government on leasing and renovating office space in Gimli for these government jobs? Hon. Harry Enns (Min ister of Natural Resources): Mr.

Speaker , the honourable member I appreciate is referring to essentially staff in the Department of Natural Resources. Gimli was recently selected as the headquarters for the region , with the Director , Mr. Worth Hayd en , residing in that facility. Certainly the memb er , who has on many

2599 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA May 6, 19 93 occasions drawn to the fact that my departmen t has undergone some downsizing-that is the simple reason. Some of those offices that were previously filled are now no longer needed. Mr. Cllf Evans: Mr. Speaker, I was not referring to the Natural Resources; I am referring to the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ernst) emp loyees that are being- An Honourable Member: Then ask the Minister of Housing, okay? Mr. Cllf Evans: I asked the Premier (Mr. Filmon). The Premi a r should be aware of what is going on . I will ask the Minister of Housing. Mr.

Speaker, this government and this Premi er Mr. Sp eaker: Order, please. The honourable First Minister, on a point of order. Point of Order Hon .. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I think that if the memb ers opposite wan lt to incur and engage daily in political gamesmanship, this is not the way to go. If they have a question of a mi nister of a department, they know what department it refers to. Do not refer it to the Premier. Do not refer to the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey). Refer it to the person you want the inform ati on from . This is strai ght political gamesmans hip.

It is an abuse of this House and the members opposite are getting what they deserve. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I am quite frankly amazed. Our rules are very clear in this House. Memb ers can ask questions to whomever they wish. It is up to the government to decide. If the Premier does not want to answer questions, I am sorry, but he is going to have to find that increasingly Manitobans are asking him to be respo nsible for the action of his government. He cannot hide from that. It is about time he answered some of those questions. Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

On the point of order raised by the honourable First Minister, I would like to quote from Beauchesne's 418: "H on. memb ers may not realize it but questions are actually put to the Government. The Governmen t decides who will answer." Decentral ization Office Space Avallabll lty- Arborg Mr. Cllf Evans (Interla ke) : The question then is dire o ted to the Minister of Housing, Mr. Speaker. On what rationale did this Minister of Housing decide that his department should locate in Gimli, when there is office space, provincial government space, available in Arborg-a more central location for his department? Hon.

Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): The fact remains that Gimli is the most central location for this region for the Manitoba Housing Authority. In fact, the bulk of the units contained in that region are contained in the town of Gimli and the R.M. of Gimli adjacent. No-Fault Auto Insurance Additional Costs Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster) : Mr. Speaker, this government does have a track record of doing things somewha t prema turely, and not knowing in terms of what the consequences are going to be, by implemen ting a policy.

I do have a concern with respect to the no-fault insurance, and it is to the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard). I would like to ask the Minister of Health, because in the province of Quebec there has been an additional cost on the Department of Health. My question to the Minister of Health, assuming, of course, that he has consulted and participated in the decision making, is: What cost is the Department of Health going to incur as a direct result of no-fault insurance? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the admini strati on of The Man itoba Pub lic Insurance Corporation Act): Mr.

Speaker, I am not sure if the memb er knows that MPIC pays the cost of at-fault drivers' health care today . There is no reason for us to drive additional health care costs into the health care syst em . In fact, Mr. Speaker, my belief is that this will reduce the reliance on the public health syst em. Obviously, as today, public health is the first-if you are in an accident and taken by ambulance, you automatically have access to the health syste m. But all rehabilitation, all additional health care costs that you would have to go to your pocket for are complete l y covered without cap.

The impa ct of that is that the recipient of coverage will in fact be much better covered in many respects. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, in the province of Quebec, there is an additional cost on the taxpayers with the Department of Family Se rvices. To the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer): Does he have any idea of additional costs to the

May 6, 19 93 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 2600 department as a direct result of the no-fault, that there is going to be an addition- Mr. Speaker : Order, please. The honourable member has put his question. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, the implication of the member is really without foundation, because when he considers that all of the costs would fall to the public health care system and the social services system today will be picked up without cap by the automobile injury recovery plan that we have here tod ay.

When he consider s that all of those expenses will be car ried, then he has to acknowledge that this may in fact reduce the costs to those services. Mr. Lamoureux: Can the mi nister responsible then assure this House that there is not going to be any additional costs to the Department of Health, to the department of social services, as a direct result? Can he give us that assurance? Mr. Cummings: As opposed to what happened when the Liberal adminis tration in Ontario decided to rem ove certain costs to the insurance industry and try and pass it off as a no-fault syste m, this system is complete.

It does take care of those who are dramatically injured without cap. Mr. Speaker, I challenge him to prove otherwise. Antlraclsm Strategy Government Mediation Ms. Judy Wasyl ycla -Lels (St. Joh ns) : Mr. Speaker, this is further to my question on Monday to the Minister responsible for Multiculturalism and refers specifically to the recent incident of alleged racism at a Winnipeg SuperValu store. As the mi nister will know, that incident is causing a great deal of anxiety among the com muni ty and is of concern to us.

It is the kind of issue that can best be resolved, I am sure we would all agree, by all those involved sitting down and talking it out and finding a resolution. I am not asking for any specific action from the min ister other than her help in facilitating such a meeting. Since the union has agreed to participate and the Filipino commu nity wants such a meeting but we have not heard from Westfair, would she contact Westfair Foods and make the suggestion that such a meeting be initiated or that the company itself participate in such a meeting? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister responsible for Multicultur alism): Mr.

Speaker, the whole focus of this government, with the introduction of our multiculturalism policy and our Multiculturalism Act, was in fact to focus on the benefit of all new, recent and previ ous immi gr ants to the pro vince of Manitoba to look at how we can at temp t to accomplish a greater economic focus and a greater focus on, multiculturalism means business. I think that is the whole thrust of our act.

Not only does that talk about new imm igration and what previous ways imm igration have contributed to our economy and to our commu nity, but it does focus, too, on those well-established businesses and their ability to try to accept and understand all Manitobans. Mr. Speaker, the incident that did take place has certainly, in my conversations with memb ers of the Filipino community and other commu nities, caused a major uproar. I think they are taking the right approach in trying to det ermine and get to the bottom of the situation and the facts.

I commend the commu nity on the responsibility and the actions that they are taking. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. * (1 420) Nonpolitical Statements Mrs. Sh irley Render (St. VItal): Mr. Speaker, do I have leave to make a nonpolitical stat ement? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for St. Vital have leave to make a nonpolitical stat ement? [agreed] Mrs. Render: Mr. Speaker, I would jusf like to take this opportunity to me ntion that May is Motorcycle Safety Awareness Month. I think all the MLAs have received an invitation from the Coalition of Manitoba Motorcy cle Groups.

I would like to remind all my colleagues about the MLA's Ride for Safety, which is happening tonight at six o'clock at the legislative steps. * * * Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister responsible for the Status of Women) : Mr. Speaker, might I have leave to ma ke a nonpolitical state ment? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable mi nister have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, last night was the 17 th Annual YM!YWCA Women of Distinction

2601 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 6, 19 93 Awards. These awards have come to symbolize not simply the giving of individual awards to deserving women, but also the recognition of the contribution of Winnipeg women to the life of our commu nity. There were 33 women honoured last night, women from the arts , women from business, women from the voluntary sector, immi grant women, abo lriginal wom en, individuals who were representative of the important roles that women play in virtually every aspect of our business, profession�! and voluntary sect ors.

As the awards were announced last night, there was not a sense of winners and losers, nor a sense that someone else should have won. There was a sense of pride in the room , a sense that these women have been our leaders, our role models and our builders. Virtually every winner acknowledged the help that she had received in her chosen field, how im portant the people were who had supported her and the im portance of the women who had gone on before. It was a special evening, and I would like to pay tribute to all of those who were nomina ted.

The five winners of the awards were: Winnifred Sim was recognized for her many contri butions in the field of mu sic and the cultural life of Winnipeg. Many will remem ber her for the impr essive work she has done with the choral groups in this province. Mary Wilson was distinguished because of her wor�1 in the health care field, her work within government and her work with the Manitoba AssClciation of Registered Nurses. Sandi Funk is one of the aboriginal women who has taken a very real leadership role in the past several years.

Her work with original women's network, Ma Mawi Wi Chi ltata and with the media in making the issues of aboriginal women better known, was acknowledged last night. Dr. Ste lla Hryniuk, through her academic and commu nity work, has shattered the myths and stereotypes surrounding the Ukrainian immigr ants in Canada. She is an outstand ing example of the rich multicultural heritage in Manitoba. Mona Brown has become a nationally known figure as a spokesperson in the issues surrounding women and the law. She is one of Canada's leading experts in the area of gender bias in the courts.

Her award attests to the im portance of these issues for us all. Manitoba mu st be proud of these women as examples of the talents and skills that women contribut e to our province. They are truly women who mak e it happen and represent only a few of Manitoba's women of distinction. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Wellington have leave to make a nonpolitical state ment? [agreed] Ms. Becky Barrett (Welli ngton) : Mr.

Speaker, yes, I would like to rise on behalf of our caucus and also congratulate, not only the five winners of the 17 th Annual YWCA Women of Distinction Award; Mary Wilson, Sandi Funk, Stella Hryniuk, Mona Brown and Winnifred Sim as the mi nister has outlined their accomplishments, but also the other women who were nomi nated last night. It was truly an energizing event to att end. As a woman, I think sometimes we forget or are not aware of the incredible range and richness of the backgrounds and the strengths that women in Manitoba bring to absolutely every field of endeavour in this province.

One thing I was also very interested in, Mr. Speaker, is the age range of the women who were not only nom inated, but were selected last night. Generations were represented last night, women who had provided service to this province and this country for, in some cases, 60 years, as well as women who are beginning their contributions to the province of Manitoba. On behalf of our cauc us, I would like to congratulate the winners and the nominees and to say that Manitoba is richer for their contri butions, and they will enable women to follow on in their foots teps. Thank you. Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable member for Crescentwood have leave to make a nonpolitical stat eme nt? [agreed] Ms. Avis Gray (Cresce ntwood) : Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my caucus, I would like to join with my colleagues and other mem bers of the Legislature in recognizing the YW Women of Distinction Awards. Certainly, the dinner and ceremonies that were held last evening were very indicative of the fact that women's roles have certainly changed in our society and certainly, particularly, in Manitoba.

As one read through the very brief resumes that were presented of the 33 women who were nomi nated, it was very, very obvious of the outst anding contributions that these women have

May 6 , 19 93 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 2602 made in Manitoba, whether it was through arts, music and culture , whether it was through contributions to public health and com mu nity services, whether it was as a commu nity activist or whether it was through women and the law, it was cer tai nly very obvious of the ou tsta ndin g contri butions.

I thought it was very interes ti ng tha t the organizers of the event last night chose to invite yo ung women from the various high schools throughout Winnipeg and gave those young women an opportunity to be at the event and to see first-hand som e of the accompl ishm ents and achievements of the women. I think that was an excellent idea, and I hope they continue to do that.

Again, I would certainly like to congratulate not only the five individuals who were given awards for outst anding contributions but, as well, the other women who were nomi nated and particularly the women who, in fact, were not on the list, but who are out there working in the com muni ties who certainly contribute to our society, perhaps the unsung heros, whether they are working in the communi ty today or whether they are women who are no longer with us, but over the past decades and over the course of the 20th Century have certainly contributed to the fabric and life of Manitoba. Thank you , Mr. Speaker.

ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Darren Prazn lk (Deputy Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I would move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr. Speaker: Prior to putting the question to the House, I would like to advise the House at this time that the House had agreed, on a prior occasion, to allow the chief critics to move down to the benches of the Leaders of the opposition parties. An Honourable Member: Leave. Mr.

Speaker: No, leave is not granted. The House had already decided that. I am just putting this forward for the information of the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) who had asked that question. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Family Services; and the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture. * (1 430) COMMITTEE OF SUPPL Y (Concurr ent Sections) FAMILY SERVICES Mr.

Deputy Chai rperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Good afterno on. Will the Comm ittee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Comm ittee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, will resume consideration of the Estimates of Family Services. When the comm ittee last sat, it had been consider ing item 5. (e) (1 ) on page 59 of the Estimates book. Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon) : Mr. Dep uty Chairperson, I wanted to ask a number of questions sort of following up on the initial question raised by my colleague from River Heights regarding the Rin Flon Crisis Centre.

I read again the mi nister's response to that question, which I have to say, unfortunately, was and is as evasive as the min ister's response to questions that I raised in the House, questions that staff from the Flin Flon Crisis Centre and the chairman of the Flin Flon/Creighton Crisis Centre board raised in the minister's office. I think it is clear to everyone who has listened to the min ister's responses that, to date, we have not heard a legitimate reason for the government's decision and the mi nister's decision to cut all provincial funding from the Flin Flon Crisis Centre.

There has been no logical explanation, no rationale provided that stands the light of any kind of scrutiny, and that leads one, of course, to start to surmise about what other possible rationale there could be, whether it is one of vindictiveness on the part of someone in the department or the mini ster, whether it is simply a matter of political expediency, the min ister and his colleagues perhaps around the cabinet table deciding that-who cares? It certainly, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, defies logic.

When I look at what the objectives of the Family Dispute Services branch are, one of the areas under Activity Identification talks about: "Provides grants and mo nitors and evaluates agencies' financial

2603 LEGISLA TIVE AS SEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA May 6, 19 93 ope ra tions and ser vice delivery to ens ure acco untability." The Flin Flon Cr isis Centre executive director and chairperson have asked repeatedly for an explanation of the government's decision. There has never been, to my knowledge, any objective response which would indicate that in some sense there were service delivery problems in Flin Flon.

The min ister is well aware that, on March 4, 19 92, the director of Family Dispute Services wrote to the chairperson of the Rin Flon Crisis Centre and suggested. that the government was going to be undertaking an evaluation and assessment of the senfices of the Flin Flon Crisis Centre. The min ister is equally well aware that that evaluation never occurred, at least not to the knowledge of the board or the staff of the Flin Flon Crisis Centre.

I am asking the mi nister today whether he can provide us with any evidence to support the contention that somehow a review of this situation, the Flin Flon Crisis Centre, has been conducted by staff, by the minis ter's staff or the staff in the department of Family Dispute Services. Hon. Harold Gllle shammer (Minister of Family Services): I am pleased to respond to the member for Flin Ron (Mr. St orie). I can assure the member that the government does not make decisions on the basis of some of the criteria that the member put forward.

The member also knows that the government of Manitoba is facing very difficult financial decisions and has made some of these decisions, not unlike decisions made in other provinces, decisions that are ma de to contain a deficit and a debt that is growing dramatic ally. The member is aware that in the province of British Columbia a ma jor downtown Vancouver hospital has been closed. In Saskat chewan, 52 rural hospitals are being closed.

In the province of Ontario, the Premier has announced the laying off of 4,500 hydro em ployees and som e 20 ,000 provincial em ployees, and in the province of Newfoundland, the issue of the deficit and the debt is also being attacked by very, very difficult government decisions. I indicated in my answer last day the tremendous response this government has had to this whole area of Fam ily Disput e Services, and I have explained our decision in the past in a private meeting with the board and with the member present. I have also responded to this in the House.

The member, of course, is always good with his use of terminology, and I have explained to him before that there was not a formal review of the shelter undertaken. I used the review in terms of internal discussions that we have made within the department to review the family dispute services that are offered in Manitoba. As a result, we looked at the services offered in the Norman Region and felt that that was an area that we could make some changes. Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chai rperson, unfortunately, the min ister delivers the same recor de d announcement that he has given since the day this decision was made.

I guess that people in Flin Ron and the people who have supported and who built the crisis centre were looking for something a little more objective. The rationale the mi nister has offered is that the government had tough decisions to make, tough choices, has tough choices. Of course, the government does have tough choices to make. This particular choice is not the result of a tough choice; it is a stupid choice. The fact of the matter is the government had the option even within Family Dispute Services of reducing all areas within the department by 1 or 2 or 3 percent, and maintaining the services in Flin Flon.

The logic of closing the Flin Ron Crisis Ce ntre as the only crisis centre that had 1 00 percent of its funding withdrawn is simply not acceptable. Flin Flon is a com mu nity in crisis. There is approximately 20 percent unem ployment in Flin Flon and the surrounding region. There is the prospect of as many as one-quarter, 20 percent, 25 percent of the workforce of HBM&S losing their jobs in the next 18 months. There is tremendous uncertainty, and there had been an increase in bed nights at the crisis centre.

There are, if you want to use the argument of regionalization, other centres which could have been regionalized on a much more rational basis that are closer to other services, closer to other crisis centres. So it does not make sense. I realize that the mi nister does not have to be respon sible. The mi nister does not have to give us a reasonable explanation or a legitimate one. He does not have to be honest about the motivation for

May 6, 19 93 LEG ISLATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2604 the government's decision to do it, but I want the record to reflect that. Anyone who had read the mini ster's responses since this decision came down would have to agree that the mi nister has been evading any realistic response to the question of why the Flin Flon Crisis Centre . The argument that the government has tough choices to make simply does not hold any water, not within the context of the spending in his own departm ent, and certainly not within the context of spending on a governme nt-wide basis. It simply does not hold water. Mr.

Deputy Chairper son, I was hoping that the mi nister would have some additional explanation, perhaps some additional information at his disposal that he could share about this decision. Obviously, he does not, or he is not willing to share it with us, which can only lead one to believe that the motives that I spoke about earlier are, in all probability, the motives that precipitated this closure. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I have a couple of other specific questions that I would like the minis ter to answer.

Right now the Flin Flon Crisis Centre board is reviewing its options, including its obligations in terms of existing financial resources that it has at its disposal and the possibility of conti nuing to operate, and I would like the mi nister to answer the question with respect to those reserves. Does the Flin Ron Crisis Centre main tain control and autho rity over the reserves at its disposal as a private, non profit incorporated entity? * (144 0) Mr. Gllle shammer: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson , I know that the memb er does not accept the fact that government has to make these decisions and would like me to give different answers every time he asks the question, but we have consistently indicated that this was a difficult decision. We looked at the fact that the Northern Women's Resource Centre, which has its headquarters in Rin Flon and a sat ellite office in The Pas, is providing services there. It provides counselling, outreach, and information referral services, including services to women who have been abused.

The shelter in The Pas ope rates a 15 0-mile radius, toll-free crisis line which is accessible to women from Rin Flon, and we do have a toll-free provincial line. We also have indicated that the RCMP will assist women who need an escort to access services in the region, and that transportation costs are, in fact, covered. The answer to the latter question is that we have indicated to the board that we would like to work with them at the present time. My understanding is that an audit is still in process, and a meeting that was scheduled has been rescheduled because that audit has not been completed as yet.

We think that, if there is some funding that is left at this particular time, there are some options that we are prepared to discuss with the board. On the question of the surplus funds, our legal advice is that the funds remain within the purview of the com muni ty and the board. Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, a subsequent question in the same vein. The Rin Flon/Creighton Crisis Centre, unlike many other shelters, owns its own facility. Is it within the purview of the board to sell that facility, to lease back that facility and to continue to operate with any surplus funds that they may gain from the sale?

Mr. Gll le shammer: Co mmu nity gr oup s throughout this province offer a variety of services that are not under the auspices of government. I think in many areas we have seen that com mu nity grou ps have a role to play, and if there are community groups within that particular com mun ity that want to pursue that, they are free to do so. Mr. Storie: I want to thank the mi nister for those answers. Jus t a comment, I guess, the mini ster suggests that somehow I will not accept the fact that governme nts have difficult choices to make. Of course, that is not the case at all.

In fact, when I did make-the Flin Flon/Creighton Crisis C�ntre group that met with the mini ster made a suggestion, the mi nister seemed very reluctant to accept an alternative. The mi nister had many, many choices that he could have made that would have maintained the service at Flin Flon over these difficult times, and he chose not to do that. In a budget of hundreds of mi llions of dollars, it is difficult to believe that the min ister is not intelligent enough to find a way to maintain the services in Flin Flon if it would have been the minis ter's desire to do that.

The ar gumen t that some how the Nor ther n Women's Resource Centre, which provides no family or crisis counse lling whatsoe ver, could provide some sort of an assistance in this matter is simply not acceptable. The fact is that the Flin

2605 LEG ISL ATIVE AS SEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA May 6, 19 93 Flon--Mr. Deputy Ch airperson, I met approxim ately three weeks ago with the director of the Northern Women's Resource Services group and her staff, and they indicate they are in no way an alternative to a crisis centre. The mi nister should not atte mpt to construe that as an alternative to the services that were being provided. It would be an extreme mi srepresentation of the facts if the mi nister suggested that.

The fact of the ma tte r is that there are crisis centres in Winnipeg, in the surrounding areas, which couiCI have been regionalized and left women and 1amilies in crises a lot closer to services with a lot more alternative services than the decision that has been made. The mi nister has made a mi stake, a colossal mi stake that is going to cost people in Rin Flon and surrounding area sooner or later, because they simply will not have access to the services they are going to need. This government has also provided grant money to gun clubs.

This government has provided grants to gun clubs, I think approximately $45,000 this year to a numb er of gun clubs. In terms of priorities, it seems to me that a crisis centre has to ma intain something of a higher priority on the government's list of priorities.

This government has made all kindl� of choices, and the idea that somehow we are going to leave families and women vulnerable in Flin Flon and Creig hton and Cranberry Portage and Sherridon and Pukatawagan simply, I think, reflects contempt for that communi ty and the people in that area, rather than a question of the government having to make difficult decisions. It is obvious by the mini ster's demeanour here and his demeanour in the meetings that we had that he has no intention of correcting his ill-advised and ill-time d and ill-considered decision. That is, indeed, unfortunate.

I only hope that there is not a tragedy that is a direct result of the fact that that service is not longer available. The min ister may know that there was an incident in Rin Flon last night. That is trag ic. I simply hope for the mi nister's sake that someone was not looking for help at the crisis centre at the time. I am not suggesting that was the case. I am simply saying I hope that is not the case.

I know the mi nister is not familiar with Flin Flon or the region and perhaps is not sensitive to the crisis that people feel,. the uncertainty people feel, but I can tell him that this service could not have been remo ved at a more inopportune time. I certainly hope that events do not, I guess, create a situation where the minister will ultimately regret his decision, as many people already do in the Rin Ron area and as I do. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, the mi nister and his department in their Estimate process, I think, quite deliberately removed funding and support to those groups in our society that need it most and, in many cases, have the least power to oppose and to have their voices heard. I am thinking here as well of the friendship centres in Rin Flon and in Lynn Lake.

I think what is mo st disconcerti ng is the apparent lack of concern the government has, and this min ister has, for com mun ities in northern Manitoba that are suffering as a result of the general economic downtu rn, as a result of gove rnment indifference-some would say, as a resu lt of difficulties in the primary industry sector of our economy. Commu nities like Lynn Lake have no other services. The friendship centre was one of the only family service agencies in the commu nity. There are itinerant services provided out of Thom pson in some cases.

There are two Family Services staff in Lynn Lake, but they are overwhelmed. I have spoken to them about their caseloads. The decisions that the mi nister has made, including the crisis centre in Flin Ron, simply defy logic. They attack the people who most need the services and the communi ties that most need the services. It is quite obvious that the mi nister either is unaware or simply does not care of the havoc and the despair that his decisions have created and are going to create over the coming months and years. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, with that in mind, I move, seconded by the memb er for Burro ws (Mr.

Martindale), that this commit tee condemns the government for its decision to arbitrarily close the Flin Flon!Creighton Crisis Centre and urges the gove rnment to reconsider this ill-timed , ill-considered and damaging decision. • (1 450) Mr. Deputy Chairpers on : I am going to take this matter under advisement for just a little bit. I want to do some research, and I will get back to the comm ittee on it. Mr. Gll leshammer: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the member for Flin Flon and his colleagues recognize and have said frequently that gove rnments do, in fact, have tough decisions to make, and that the

May 6, 19 93 LEG ISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2606 member is indicating that if we ma de decisions in other departments, we would have more funding in the Department of Family Services. The fact of the matter is, Family Services has accessed additional funding each and every year, far beyond what other departmen ts have been receiving. I have asked the memb er and his colleagues to bring back some recom men dations and ideas whereby this depar tm ent can find additional resources within it, to take care of other priorities.

The only suggestion that has come back so far is to get rid of 11 civil servants and replace them with volunteers, and that is not the type of decision that we would like to make. Point of Order Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the Minister of Family Services is misquoting me. I did not say that we should get rid of 11 civil servants; I was talking about volunteers in the commun ity assisting the staff. Mr. Gll leshammer: On the same point of order, he brought it forward as a budget reduction within this departm ent, and now he says- Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please.

The honourable memb ers do not have a point of order. The honourable min ister conti nue his reply. * * * Mr. Gll leshamm er: We ll, thank you . The challenge cont inues then, that I would ask memb ers to bring forward some responsible options that are within the realm of possibility. We have seen drama ti c increases in the expenses in this department and, as the member knows, those revenues have not kept pace with them.

Every government in this land is making decisions to deal with the deficit and the debt, and I can appreciate that memb ers in opposition do have some disagreement with decisions that are being made. But you must recognize that governments must make tough decisions, as they are in other jurisdictions. I would point out to the memb er that at no time did I say that the Northern Women's Resource Service was a replacement for the shelter. I said that was simply one of the services and a cont inuum of services offered within the region.

So, again, I recognize that the member does not accept the fact that governm ents have to make these decisions. I will certainly have an opportun ity to peruse his comments, and we have made a com mi tment to work with the existing board to examine some possibilities. Mrs. Sha ron Carstalr s (Leader of the Second Opposition): I have a number of questions in the same area. I, too, have grea t difficulty in understanding why the mini ster would cut a crisis centre. An Honourable Member: Excuse me, is the motion in order? Are we debating- Mrs. Carst alrs: He is taking it under advisement. (Mr.

Jack Reimer, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair) The reality is that, as the mi nister indicated, this government has indeed put a great deal more money into the whole issue of Family Dispute Services. The gove rnment has put that money into Family Dispute Services because more and more women now have the courage to come forward and to go into shelters, to take their spouses or their partners to court, to protect their children as they never had before. I think the minis ter will recognize that is the reason why this department and this particular

section of this department has grown so rapidly. What the government has chosen to do here, however, was to say that one particular

section of the province that had been served by a shelter in the past, would no longer be served by a shelter. I would ask the mini ster if he can tell me exactly how long it takes to go from the com mun ity of Flin Flon to the communi ty of The Pas. Mr. GIIIeshammer: Well, I am given to unde rstand that it takes about an hour to an hour and a half. Mrs. Carst alrs: I would suggest that if you are going less than an hour and a half, you are in violation of speed limits.

I wonder why the min ister would think that he thinks that a woman who has just been beaten by her partner, who has children who are hysteri cal, can put those children in an automobile and drive to The Pas. Does he not think that many women in this co mmu nity will now choose not to avai l themselves of the support they previously had, because of additional trau ma that has been placed on them because of the inability of them to get quickly to a shelter? Mr. GIIIeshammer: I would point out that not every communi ty in our province has a shelter facility.

2607 LEG ISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 6, 19 93 What I have said, in reference to this decision, that we are looking at the regional service that is provided in that area. In fact, we do have a shelter operating at The Pas. We have other services that are available within the region. I recognize that the member has indicated that go ver nmen t has put tr em endous additional resources into this area of our budget, as I indicated the last day, a 262 percent increase over the last five budgets, a tremendous commitment to the fact that services were woefully inadequate here in 19 88.

I know that the late colleague of mine, Gerrie Hammond, brought forward many, many new ideas that have been accepted by government, either withi n this department, wit hin the Justic e department to ma ke a dramatic difference in the servic:es that are offered. we, looked at the services provided within that particular region of the province and felt that we had an array of services, a cont inuum of services that serviced that area. I know the member can bring forward specific scenarios. I do not, in any way, deny the tremendous trauma that mus t exist when one is in the mi ddle of a family dispute.

Having said that, we did, within the department, examine those services and made that decision accordingly. (Mr. Deputy Chairp erson in the Chair) Mrs. Carstalrs: Can the minister tell me what consideration was given if the decision was made by the departm ent-a decision with which I am in total disag reemen t, to close a shelter-if any consideration was given to closing an alternative shelter? For example, the minis ter talks about the region alization of services. Well, someone who lives in Selkirk can, quite frankly, get to Winnipeg an awful lot faster than they can get from Flin Flon to The Pas.

Some body even living in Portage can get to the city of Winnipeg, or indeed to the city of Brandon faster than a woman can get from Flin Flon to The Pas. Was that taken into consideration in the decision making here? If they were really genuinely looking at regionalization of services, did they consider, for example, the geographic area and drive circles around it and say, okay, these are distances from one to the other and therefore this one gets targeted because this one has a share of services? Mr. GIIIeshammer: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I can say to the member, that in working from last August through the fall and into the winter months on decision making surrounding budget, every aspect of our department was considered in terms of looking at reductions that we could make. Within this specific area, staff were involved in bringing forth recommen dations as far as the number of services offered on a regional basis, and, as a result of those deliberations, a decision was made. We not only look at distance, we also look at volume and collateral services that are offered.

In the city of Winnipeg, for instance, we have a tremendously high occu pancy tha t mak es it di fficult to accomm odate additional cases from other areas. But I can assure the member that there was a review done within the department of all aspects of program ming prior to these decisions being made. • (1 500) Mrs. Cars talrs: In the payme nts to External Agencies listed for 19 93-94, can the min ister tell me why there is such a differential between what they were paid in '92-93 and what they will be paid in '93-94? Mr. Gll leshammer: Are you referring to a specifier Mrs.

Carst alrs: I am talking about all the shelters. If you look for the grants for '92-93, which were distributed last year, the lkwe, for example, shows $1 07,300. It now shows $31 9,600. I had assume d originally that that had to do with the change of funding, but at the bottom there is a note that says it reflects grants only and does not reflect the per diems. So can the mi nister tell me why there is such a discrepancy? Mr. Gllleshammer: There was a 2 percent adjustment on the grants listing, but the shelters also access per diem funding.

We are flowing funds to them in two different ways-unless I am not sure what the question is that the member is asking. Mrs. Carst alrs: Last year when I received the docu me nt, De part men t of Fam ily Servi ces Paymen ts to External Agencies, it lists the shelters. I am quite prepared to show this to staff if they want. Flin Ron was listed at $90,200, lkwe at $1 07,300, Parkland at $86,000, et cetera, and, at the bottom of that, it said they reflect grants only and do not include per diems.

All of these amou nts are dramatically larger this time, and I am only assuming that perhaps the note at the bottom should not be there or else there has been a mi stake.

May 6, 19 93 LEG ISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2608 Mr. Glll eshammer: That reflects the new funding model that was introduced which reflected the fact that grants were changed upward and per diems were lowered. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Deputy Chair person, it might have been easier if, in fact, there had been a note on the form which said that had happened. So, in reality, what is the differentiation that is now being received from the shelter vis a vis last year to this year, because it was imp ossible for me to do that com parison? Mr.

Gllleshammer: I will just get some further information on that, but what was happening with the old funding model is that some of the shelters were rapidly accumu lating surpluses while other shelters were feeling that they did not have enough funding. So there has been an adjustment in the funding mo del so that ther e is a mo re even distribution of the funds based on the volume that they have. There were changes that we will have to calculate the percentages for, but there was a shift from money for Housing into Family Services so that those grants went up.

We also added some funding for children's progr amming in last year's budget. So there is a difference in the way we budgeted and flowed funds to the shelters. Mrs. Carstalrs: In simple terms then, are the shelters receiving more money in 1 992-93 than they received-excuse me, in '93-94 than they received in '92-93, or less, and by what approxim ate percentage? Mr. Gll leshammer: They are rece iving mor e money, and there has been a transfer of some funds from Housing to reflect that. Mrs.

Carstalrs: If they are receiving more funds, was any thought given to perhaps giving them the same amount of funding and using the remainder, if you will, to be used to maintain the operation in Flin Flon? Mr. Gll leshammer: The reason we made the shift was because there was seemingly an uneven distribution of the funding available whereby, as I have indicated, certain shelters were accum ulating surpluses; others were running deficits. So we have reshaped the manner in which those funds flow. The idea was to st abilize all of those shelters.

So some of them were in fact going to get less money, and some were going to get more. Then the other factor that comes in, there is the volume, that the ones that have a higher volume, of course, are accessing more per diems. Mr. Deputy Chalr person: Order, please. lamj ust going to bring the ruling forward on the motion. It has been moved by the honourable memb er for Flin Flon (Mr. St orie), seconded by the honourable mem ber for Burrows (Mr.

Martindale), that the com mi t tee conde mn s the gove rnmen t for its decision to arbitrarily close the Flin Flon/Creighton Crisis Centre and urges the go vernmen t to recons ider the ill-timed, ill-considered and damaging decision. Ha ving reviewed the motion moved by the honourable member for Flin Flon and seconded by the honourable memb er for Burrows, I note that the gove rnment is being asked to reconsider; that is, to consider again or to re-exami ne its decision. Therefore, I am ruling that this would not involve expenditure, and I am ruling that the motion is in order. Hon.

Cl ayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, before other mem bers of the commit tee who may wish to address the mo tion and ultimately vote on it, now that you have ruled it in order-1 would like to indicate that the government side finds the ruling, the acceptance of the motion, tr oublesome. Motions of condem nation by a comm ittee are in order any time. I have no difficulty with that, but to reconsider, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I have laid before the people of this province a budget and Estimates, Estimates which very definitely ma ke up the total expenditure in program area of �4.9 billion. Reconsideration of one element of that can lead, theoretically, to the reconsideration of every item . [interjection] Yes, it can. Obviously, you could have a motion-if this mo tion is acceptable, opposition can call for the same motion on every line of the Estimates, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. [interjection] Well, I am speaking to the motion. Mr.

Deputy Chairpers on : I would just like to ask the member if he is challenging the ruling of the Chair or if he is speaking to the motion. If he could clarify that for me, then carry on. Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chair person, it is not for gove rnment to challenge it. I am , though, speaking to the mo tion, but I mu st say, in speaking to the motion, that I also want to address the fact that never

260H LEG ISL ATIVE AS SEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA May 6, 19 93 in m}' history of being here has ever a motion been allowed to build back into the Estimates and a debate on that motion. * (1 51 0) Point of Order Mr. Storie: On a point of order. I respect that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Mannes

s) is att emp ting to defend, in one way or another, a decision which is indefensible. The fact of the matter is, I think, that the decision is an im portant one, and it recognizes that this mi nister had choices. This mi nister still does have' choices, Mr. Deputy Chair person. What we want this min ister- Mr. Deputy Chair person: Order, please. The honourable member for Flin Flon does not have a point of order. Mr. Storie: I challenge your ruling. Mr. Dep uty Cha irperson: Order, please. The honourable memb er for Flin Flon is challenging my rulin!� on what? Mr. :Stori e: Point of order.

It was not a point of order, you said. It was a point of order. Mr. Deputy Chal rperson: All those in favour of the Chair's ruling, that it was not a point of order, please say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: All those opposed, please say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay. Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chair person , I request a formal vote. Mr. Deputy Chai rperson : Order, please. I need two mem bers to request a formal vote. Mr. Martindale: I request a formal vote. Mr. Deputy Chai rperson : It has been moved by the memb er for Flin Flon (Mr. St orie), seconded by the member for Burrows (Mr.

Martindale), that a formal vote be taken. Mr. Manness: So we are voting on a point of order? Mr. Deputy Chai rperson : We are voting on a point of order. A formal vote has been requested on the ruling of my point of order. I will be reporting to the House. * * * The committee took recess at 3:1 2 p.m . After Recess The comm ittee resumed at 3:44 p.m . * * * Mr. Deputy Chair person: Order, please. The motion of the honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) is before the committee at this time. The honourable Minister of Rnance was debating it. Mr. Manness: Mr.

Deputy Chair person, I think it is a motion that, under other circumstances, I would challenge . I will not today. I cert ainly wou ld another time. The mo tion calls upon the go vernm ent to reinstitute funding after the condemnation. Of course, memb ers in opposition always have the right to condemn. Beyond that, I would say I would love to support motions like that. I would love to have all the money that those of us on Treasury Board, therefore, would not have to go through the agonizing decisions that we did. We had to go through agonizing decisions. This one was not taken lightly.

It was a most difficult decision. There was rationale behind it. The min ister has provided that rat ionale. It was a most difficult decision to make. The motion of the member asks the government to reconsi der. Mr. Deputy Chai rperson , the difficulty with that, if the government reconsiders then it has to find the money from somewhere else and memb ers on the opposition would say, well, that is part of prioritizing, that is part of gover ning, just go somewhere else to find it.

If we go to somewhere else to find it, then when that line comes up, whomever is the opposition critic of the day can bring forward the same motion and say find it som ewher e else. Ultima tely, whoever's department is last, would be the last department that then would be the collector of all the decisions of government reconsidering. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, with those very few rem arks, I do not want to in any way take away from the seriousness of the situation. I have listened not as carefully as I should, but certainly have listened to the represent ations made by the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs.

Carstairs) and also the member for Flin Flon. We hear the agony behind, at least I hear the agony behind the calls and I know the mini ster does also. The reality is that difficult, very tough decisions have to be made from time to time and have to, not only in this province but throughout the land.

May 6, 19 93 LEG ISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 261 0 Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in terms of the point of order, the Minister of Finance suggested that he, under other circums tances, would have challenged the ruling. His remark s clearly were a challenge to the ruling, and I think the ruling is a correct one because it does not ask the government to spend additional dollars. It simply asks the government to reconsider as I have asked the mi nister on previous occasions to reconsider this decision.

The Flin Flon/Creighton Crisis Centre staff and chairperson of the board met with the mi nister and gave him, in fact, alternatives which would have seen the conti nued operation of the shelter. It has been pointed out that additional monies were provided to other crisis centres this year. Certainly in terms of precedent, many other groups had their grant amounts cut on a universal basis in a way that affected all agencies on an equal footi ng. If the mini ster had chosen that avenue, the people in Flin Flon would have maintained their service. I get more intrigued by this all the tim e.

It is now apparent that the decision was not made at a staff level. If you listen to the Minister of Finance's (Mr. Manness) remarks, the decision was made around the cabinet table, and that concerns me even more. Mr. Manness: No, that is not true. * (1 550) Mr. St orie: Well, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the Minister of Finance will read his remarks. He said, we made tough decisions. I take that to include the Minister of Finance and his cabinet colleagues around the tab le. The Minister of Finance also said in his remarks that the mi nister had provided a rationale.

I invite you to read the mi nister's remarks on this issue. From the time it was first read, you will find there has been no rationale. There is no rationale that would explain the singling out of the Flin Flon/Creighton Crisis Centre as the only crisis centre in the province that had its funding cut 1 00 percent. There is no rationale. There has been no rationale provided in terms of the service, no rationale provided in terms of need, no rationale in terms of the expected need of the crisis centre in the com mun ity of Rin Flon.

The Minister of Finance should know that the communi ty of Flin Flon and the surrounding areas are suffering at this mom ent. They live with uncertainty on a daily basis. The need for the crisis centre cont inues to increase and has been increasing over the last year. Those facts are known. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would like to believe the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) when they suggest that somehow they are concerned and they hear the pleas for help and assistance from the communi ty.

But when you consider that this is the only crisis centre that is affected, when you consider the scope of the Department of Family Services' budget, the scope of the governmental budget, it is difficult to understand why this cut had to oc cur. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, obviously I know the government has received literally hundreds of letters from people across the region, from other parts of the province, but certainly from people in Flin Flon and the area, about the cuts and their imp act. I want to read one

part icularly poignant letter that came from Mrs. Moira Davis, President of St. Andrews Presbyte rian Women's Group in Rin Flon. She wrote this letter to the Premier (Mr. Filmon). She says on the second page of her letter: The Flin Flon Crisis Centre is a vital service to our area. We know that people are not likely to talk to their mi nister or their church elder about personal problems. There is a cer t ain amo u nt of em barrassment and stigma atta ched to adm itting that you or your family are having problems.

This is especially true when you are discussing these matters with someone whom you see each Sun day at church. We also know that times needed to talk to someone do not often occur between' 9 a.m . and 5 p.m. These people need to talk to someone who is trained, who is anonymous, who is available any time, day or night. The crisis centre is needed here now more than ever before. In an isolated communi ty such as ours, there are no alternative services available. In parentheses I might add that the government continues to suggest that somehow there are other services available.

There are not other services available. The closest compa rable services for Flin Flon for the Manitoba catchment area of residents is 14 0 kilometres away. The closest area for service for the people on the Creig hton side, the Saskatchewan side of the border, is more like four hours away, more like 400 kilometres.

261 1 LEG ISLA TIVE AS SEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA May 6, 19 93 Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this person goes on to say: How can the Manitoba government expect that the crisis centre in The Pas will be able to deal effectively with people from Rin Flon? If someone is in an abusive situation, how can the gov ernment expect them to pay for a long-distance call to The Pas? Many fam ilies who have used our crisis centre do not even have a vehicle. How can they be expected to get themselves to The Pas if they need shelter in the mi ddle of the night?

The residents of The Pas are not facing the same situation as those people in Flin Ron. The Manitoba gove rnme nt cannot expect people to travel85 miles or pay a long-distance phone call to get help in a desperate situati on. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this letter is typical of letters that I have received and the government has received from the chamber of commerce, from every service club. I have a letter from the Rotary Club of Flin Flon, from individua ls thr oughout the communi ty who are involved in commu nity service.

It is m>t without irony that the Department of Family Services itself and its staff refer people to the crisis centre . Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this is an unfortunate and hopefully not a tragic one, but an unfortu nate circums tance for women, for children, for the victims of abuse and for the victims of family violence in the com mu nities that were ser viced by the Flin Flon/Greighton Crisis Centre.

I would not have required and our caucus would not have required a motion in comm ittee condemning the government had there been the semblance of an answer to the quest ion, why the Flin Flon/Creighton Cr isis Cent re? Mr.

Deputy Ch airperson, one would have thought that given the length of time that the government has to prepare its Estimates, the months and months that it has to prepare these Estimates, that if there were objective, rational reasons why Flin Flon was chosen over the other crisis centres as a target for closure, why alternative ways of financing all of the centres could not be found is difficult to understand.

The bottom line is that people in Flin Flon grow more cynical by the hour about the government's intentions, certainly when it comes to the crisis centre, but not only the decision with respect to the crisis centre, but also the friendship centres and other cutbacks that tend to hit in an unfair way the people who live in our region and who are most distant from alternative services or other services the government has to offer. Mr. Deputy Chairper son, this motion to condemn the government and ask them to reconsider their decision is a serious one.

We still believe, I certainly believe, that the government has alternatives, that if they wished to find alternatives to maintain the services in Flin Ron that could happen. * (1 600) Having said that, if the government, the staff and the Fami ly Dispute Services br anch of the department were genuinely intere sted in providing service to families and victims of violence, to women who are being abused, instead of insisting that the crisis centre close down when it has some financial reserve and some capacity to continue to raise funds through the charging of per diems -and the minis ter identified earlier the fact that the core grant had been increased to shelters and that the per diems had been decreased-the fact of the ma tter is in Flin Flon's circums tance they received some sign ificant supp ort from the Sask atchewan government which pays per diems appro xima tely twice as high as is provided by the government of Manitoba.

My question is, why is the department not interested in working with the board to ma intain ser vi ces there? Why are they not wor king, encouraging the shelter to remain open? Why did they threat en, in effect, the shelter and atte mpt, certainly in their eyes, to intim idate them into closing their doors when they had some resources they believed at their disposal? Will the government now change its position and allow the staff in Family Dispute Services to encourage the centre to stay open? This is a more specific question to the min ister.

Will the government conti nue to pay per diems should the Flin Flon/Creig hton Cr isis Cent re reopen? If women in crisis, families in crisis, show up at the crisis centre door, will per diems still be paid by the Department of Family Services? Mr. Deputy Chai rperson: Is the commi ttee ready for the question? Mrs. Carsta lrs: Mr. Deputy Cha irperson, I refused to participate in the previous vote because I thought it was silly, and one of the privileges of deciding you are going to leave this business is to not put up with silliness.

May 6, 19 93 LEG ISLATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2612 But I will vote on this one, and I will vote, quite frankly, with the member for Flin Ron (Mr. Storie) and the memb er for Burrows (Mr. Martinda le), because I think that it is beyond understanding why a government would choose to close down a crisis centre. I recognize that tough decisions had to be made, but there are monies that can be found in a variety of other areas, not necessarily in this department but in other departments. I indicated some of those areas in my reply to the budget.

I simply cannot understand why a government would choose to close down a crisis centre which offers support and hope to women who have been battered by their spouses in a society that st ill tolerates such behaviour. We have a Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) who talks about zero tolerance. We have a Minister of Justice who proclaims loud and clear that this is what he wants in this province.

This policy of closing down a shelter, in my opinion, is the direct oppo site of what that policy is all about, so I have to support this motion to urge the government to find dollars wherever they can find those dollars to keep this centre open. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in the annual report of the Minister of Family Services for 19 91 -92, there is a description of the objectives of the Family Dispute Services branch.

They are: "to ensure that protection services are available to support families who are caught in the cycle of violence; to offer support services to women; and to plan and develop a cont inuum of services across the province which would bette r address the needs of battered women, their children, and those who batter". For better or worse , we have a very large province. That means that some services are expensive to deliver because of a low density of population outside the city of Winnipeg, but in spite of that, this objective says, to provide services across the province.

One of those progr ams is the Wife Abuse Progr am . It says: "The purpose of the Wife Abuse Program is to support the development and maintenance of services to aid women who are victims of violence, through the provision of funding and consu ltation to commun ity-based agencies which offer crisis and support services.

The branch also develops and moni tors program policies, and is engaged in the development of service standards for shelters." I would point out in this paragraph the expression "commu nity-based agencies." It seems to me that a shelter in Flin Flon and Creig hton is a communit y-based agency because it is in their communi ty and it is the largest com mu nity in that area, serving a number of smaller communities. The next closest communi ty of any size that has a shelter is 14 0 kilom etres away , The Pas, Mani toba.

I would say tha t is no t a commu nity-based delivery of a program if people have to go 14 0 kilometres to find assistance and shelter in another community. Continuing over the page, it says: "The funding to com muni ty-based wife abuse ser vices is provided by grants ... ." It repeats the stat eme nt that it is to be a commun ity-based service.

So I think if the min ister is to be consistent, ma ybe he would change it and say a regionally based service, at least for northern Manitoba, maybe not for Winnipeg and not for the Parkland, ma ybe not for the prairies, but for the North, it is not commun ity-based ifthere is no centre in Flin Flon. It has become a regionally based delivery of services. I also have a very interesting clipping from the Opasquia Times, for Wednesday, April14 , 19 93, in which there is a description of a vigil that they had in support of the crisis shelter in Rin Flon.

The vigil was put together by the Aurora House in The Pas and was a vigil mainly to express their concern for the closing of the Flin Flon shelter, and also to say how it would affect their shelter in The Pas since they would be the ones who would receive the women who formerly were provided shelter in Rin Flon. The ma yor addressed the gathering and asked the government to reconsider their decision to cut funding to the crisis centre, the same expression that the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) used in his motion that we are now debat ing, that the decision be reconsidered.

Lawyer Lore Mirwaldt, who addressed the crowd, expressed anger about the government's decision to cut funding to the centres and said: It is a very black day for all victims of violence. She continued by saying: It is tragic that just last month, we marched in a vigil against violence, and the Jus tice min ister (Mr. McCrae) promised to take all steps

261 3 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 6, 19 93 nece!ssary to protect victims of violence. We cer t ainly hope that there is no lesse ning of protection to women who are victims of violence because of this decision. If some woman is a victim in Flin Flon and is not able to find transportation or get to The Pas, then we may have more victims and that would be tragic indeed, especially given all the public: pronouncements and the participation and vigils that the Minister of Jus tice and other cabinet mi nisters and backbenchers of this government and opposition memb ers have taken

part in. She went on to add that the safety of women and children should not be a matter of fiscal policy but rather a moral obligation. I w�Juld hope that this minis ter and his colleagues would see it as a moral obligation and not just as an area in which to save money. She concluded: It is my hope that next year, we are n(>t standing here for our shelter. So obviously, ther e is concern by boar d members, staff and supporters of shelters in other communi ties that they are not going to be next if there are more cutbacks next year. The

article continues by saying that the Flin Flon/Greighton Crisis Cen tre closed April1 , despite a request by the shelter for approval to remain open for another three mo nths, using money from surplus funding which was carried over from last year's budget. Now, I do not know if that is accurate or not, but apparently there was a request that they continue for another three months. So in conclusion, Mr. Deputy Chai rperson , I certainly support the motion that I seconded for my colleague the member for Flin Flon (Mr.

Storie) and I, too,, would reiterate that this min ister and this gov ernment should reconsider their decision. WE' are not saying that they have to spend more money because that would be out of order, but the mi nister cou ld reconsider and make his own decision about whether to spend the money or not. So I speak in favour of the motion. Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chai rperson, before we move to vote on the motion, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) has assured us, and the mi nister has attem pted to assure us, that there was a rationale for the decision to isolate the Flin Flon Crisis Ce ntre and close it.

I wan t som e answers be for e comm ittee decides to vote on this about what was the basis for that decision, other than we had tough choic:es to make. That goes without saying. I had asked earlier whether in fact this was a cabinet decision as opposed to an Estima tes decision. I would like the mi nister to answer the question : Did this issue, the closure of the Flin Flon Crisis Centre in isolation, go before cabinet? Mr. Deputy Cha irperson: Order, please. The honourable member may not be aware, but this is the time of debate, not the time for questioning.

So let us carry on with the normal business of the comm ittee and vote on this, and then we can get to your questions after the motion has been defeated or carried. Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the mini ste r, of course, can comment in any way that he wishes. If he chooses to answer the questions in a straig htforward and truthful manner, I think it would certainly help member s of this comm ittee who may want to vote on this issue. The issue, I think, needs to be dealt with in an objective way. Are there objective reasons why this decision was made other than the whimsy of the mini ste r?

Who made the decisions? Can the mini ster edify us with some commen ts, some contribution to this debate? I mean, we are debating a serious motion- Mr. Deputy Chai rperson: Order, please. I would like to remind the honourable member that, when we do get back to the Department of Family Services on line 5.(e )(1 ) Salaries, he will be able to ask the mi nister exactly those questions, but at this time we are debating the motion that the honourable member for Flin Flon brought forward. I would ask the commit tee if they are ready for the question. All those in favour of the motion, please say yea.

Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mr. Deputy Chai rperson: All those opposed, say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The Nays have it. The motion is defeated. We will now move on to 5.(

e) Family Dispute Services

(1) Salaries $267,700. Mr. St orie: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we were promised answers after the vote . The vote has been taken. Can we have the answers? Mr. Glll eshammer: I have indicated a number of times that governm ents across this land are making difficult decisions. The memb er for Flin Flon acknowledges that other gove rnmen ts are faced with the same kind of difficult decisions in the 19 90s,

May 6, 19 93 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 2614 and people like Premier Romanow and Premier Bob Rae are saying the same thing- Point of Order Mr. Storle: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the Premier of Saskatchewan did not close the Flin Flon/Creighton Crisis Centre. This mini ster did. We are asking for an explanation from this mi nister. Mr. Dep uty Chair per son: The honour able member did not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. * * * Mr. Gllle shammer: Mr. Deputy Chai rperson , I know that the member for Flin Flon (Mr.

Storie) wants to interrupt me when I am giving an answer to him that he has been demanding. (Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting Deputy Chair person , in the Chair) I recognize that the reasons that I have given him that he does not find acceptable, but I can tell you that part of the very difficult decisions in government was decisions made within the Department of Family Services.

I have indicated to the member that we looked at the services, the conti nuum of services provided on a regional basis in the Norman reg ion, and, comparable to other regions, the Norman region has the service of a shelter, the women's resource centre, a toll-free crisis line.

As Prem ier Rom anow indicated in one of his speeches, it is a very, very difficult thing to take away services that were put in place during the '70s and '80s, but this is a reality that all govern men ts are facing. * (1 61 0) I know that in meeting with the board from the shelter in Flin Flon that there was disappointment and hurt, but I think they also understand the difficult position that this go vernmen t is in in making decisions around budget. I have indicated to the member that we have reviewed the services that are provided through Family Services and made some very difficult decisions.

If the member does not want to accept the decision, that is fine. He has had an opportun ity to vote on the budget and speak on the budget. The fact is that governmen ts of all political stripes across this country are making these difficult decisions, and I do not take any

part icular glee in doing this. This was just a terribly difficult decision to ma ke within government to look at any of the programs offered by Family Services, but the reality is that we have program ming and demands on this department in many different areas. I have challenged his colleague the critic, the member for Burrows (Mr. Martinda le), to come up with other alternatives.

He has come up with none and all we have heard for the last few days we have been in Esti ma tes, the 20 or so hours that we have been here, is to spend more and more and more in all areas within this departm ent, and we simply do not have the capacity to do that. Mr. Storie: Well, Mr. Acting Deputy Chai rperson, we have given the mini ster other alternatives. By we I mean the chairperson of the Flin Flon/Creighton Crisis Centre and the executive gave the min ister alternatives when we met in his office.

It would have been a simple across-the-board reduction to all crisis centres to allow this one to continue to operate. The min ister did not answer the more direct question, and it speaks to the question of whether this was a politically motivated attack on Ain Flon. The question was: Did this issue go before cabinet? Mr. Gll leshammer: Well, I have rejected the premise that the member has put forward before that this was a politically motivated decision. It certainly is not. We govern for all of Manitoba and are concerned with all of the people in Manitoba.

We looked at the region and looked at the services that were provided there and ma de some very, very difficult decisions. A lot of the decisions that we have made im pact different areas of the province. In this budget, there has been a sense of fairness that the people have recognized across this province where there is less money for education, less money in the Department of Health and, certainly, some of the services provided in the Department of Family Services are receiving less money -very difficult decisions. Mr. Storie: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, the mini ster did not answer the question.

The question was: Was this decision discussed at cabinet? Mr. Gll leshammer: The member is aware that decisions are ma de in a process and the final budget is concurred with in caucus and cabinet. The Finance mini ster has told you that the answer to that was no, that he presents an entire budget and that is the decision that government makes. Mr. Storie: Given the fact that the min ister can offer no reasonable explanation , that any lay person, any person not connected with this issue would accept

261 5 LEG ISL ATIVE AS SEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA May 6, 19 93 as being rational and based on any kind of sensible deciskm-making process, one can only conclude that this was a political decision, a decision made to attack people who the mini ster and his colleagues may feel cannot defend themselves because of their isolatk>n, because of their relative lack of population, because of the small numb ers of people who may be affected. I wiish that the mini ster could convince me otherwise, but the answers that have been given to date simply do not justify any other conclusion being made.

Mr.GIIIeshammer: I accept the memb er's position that he is not going to rea dily acce pt the government's decision, and I also accept that that is part of governing, that the government must ma ke ver y difficult decisions on expenditu res and revenues, and the role of the opposition is to criticize. I have indicated to the mem ber that I reject his prem ise that these were politically mo tivate d. These are very difficult decisions, and decisions we have made within government im pact many, many areas of the province, all areas of the province, many Manitobans.

The tough decisions that are made within this department, within this govern ment, are not dissimilar to decisions being made right across the country. (Mr .. Deput y Chai rperson in the Chair) We have talked before about the option of raising taxes, which a number of ju risdictions have done. Manit obans are overtaxed now, and the neighbouring provinces have hiked the sales tax. They are raising income tax. They are raising every tax they can find. We are proud of the fact that we have maintained the same level of taxation now for six budgets.

So the decisions on reve nue are sound and well-accepted by the people of Manitoba. The decisiions on expenditures are very difficult. I accept that the member is not happy. He has made his p10int. We have indicated our rationale for making this decision and that has not changed. Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chai rperson, the mi nister keeps: saying he has explained the government's decision.

Can the mi nister explain why the government was prepared to request in many other cases, all school divisions for example, to take a small reduction overall and to continue to operate, why that would not have been an acceptable compromise in respect to the crisis centres in the province? Why was one crisis centre singled out? If the rationale that we can all share the pain is acceptable when you deal with school divisions and you deal with hospitals and you deal with other agencies of government, why was it not acceptable when you deal with crisis centres? Mr.

Gll leshammer: I indicated earlier that in the crisis centres in the province, we have recently gone to a new funding form ula to sustain those centres. The memb er is indicating, and he indicated in a meeting we had in my office a numb er of weeks ago, that other crisis centres were prepared to give up a portion of their budget to Ain Flon. I know that he probably canvassed those centres.

The fact of the matter is, to main tain their viability, we have had to restructure the funding and now feel comfortable that we have a funding form ula that benefits all of those centres, whether they are the small, medi um, large or extra large. We have spent a lot of time on that funding formula to be sure that the appropriate funding is in place. The fact of the ma tter is, in the Norman Region we looked at the conti nuum of services that were available in that region and felt that there was one shelter that could serve the region and, as a consequence, have made this decision. Mr. Storie: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, the min ister keeps saying that they evaluated the services that were available. Could the mi nister then enumer ate which services he refers to? Mr.GIIIeshammer: Yes, I can. The Department of Fam ily Services funds the Northern Women's Resource Centre which has its headquarters in A in Flon and a satellite office in The Pas. This agency provides couns elling, outreach and information referral services, including services to women who have been abused. The shelter at The Pas ope rates a 15 0-mile radius toll-free crisis line which is accessible to women from Ain Flon.

We also have a provincial toll-free line which is available to residents of the Norman region. We have indicated that, if a client wishes to use the services of a shelter, there is daily bus transpo rtation from Flin Flon to The Pas, Thompson or Winnipeg. As well, the RCMP have, I believe it is under the victims' assis tance prog ram , a staffperson provided there, with funding to develop the victims' assistance program . The detachment in the town of Flin Flon received funding for a

May 6, 19 93 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 2616 half-time co-ordina tor. While the progra m respo nsibility is at the local level, the RCMP headquarters have indicated to the branch that if victims require assistance to access shelter, the victims' services program would have volunteers to fulfill this need. There is a crisis line. There are other services that are available in that region. Mr. Storie: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the min ister's explanations get more bizarre as we get into this. The mi

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-4-57
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 4th hansardpdf 57.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	31ba08359f23951f05b566fd20fe69b428156244

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).