VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, DECEMBER 4, 1981 NO. 96

" December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4033 NM - 1 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! 000 MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Carbonear on a point of order . MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, before we get into the procedure if I could rise on a point of order. Mr. Speaker, yesterday I brought to your attention to the presence of this document, purportedly from the person or persons engaged in the staffing of the Memorial Universi tv new $pap er, ~he ~ However, Mr.

Speaker, it is my understanding that any material that is distributed in this House must be either authorized by the Speaker to be disseminated, or it must come from some member of the House. I wonder, Mr . Speaker, if you could inform the House,through whatever means necessary, who authorized the distribution of this material which contains both misleading statements and some very serious propaganda smearing. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, that is not a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Yes. Obviously it is not a legitimate point of order in terms of practices of the House that I am aware of.

There have been many occasions where members have distributed letters or whatever that the Chair has never been aware of. I have no knowledge of the particular letter that the hon. member is referring to or who distributed it. But I do know that it has happened in the past. 1 n 115 J.

"'( Decerr~er 4, 1981 MR . SPEAKER (Simms) : MR . OTTENHEI!-lER: Tape No . 4033 NM - 2 STATEMENTS BY MI!'iJ:STERS : The hon . ~tinister of Justice . ~x. Speaker, th e statement I am about to make now , in the absence of the hon. member "~>Tho is the Justice spokesman and in the absence of the Leader of the Opposition (l-lr. Stirling ), I made a copy available about fifteen minutes ago to the Opposition Bouse Leader . 1;1RSc;

December 4, 1981 Tape No.4034 MJ- 1 MR. OTTENHEI!1ER: Copies will be distributed to all hon. membes after I have made it. Th e report of a Provinc ial Cour+ '-..... --- inquiry, conducted between January 21, 1980, and November 23, 1981, by Provincial Court Judge A. S. Legrow of Grand Falls is being tabled today for the information of han. members of the House of Assembly and the general public. It was conducted ------ pursuant to The

Summary Proceedings Act and covers the fire which occurred in the apartment of Dr. Thomas Farrell at Elizabeth Towers, St. John's, Newfoundland.

Section 29 (1) provides as follows: "29

(1) The judge who holds an inquiry shall, after hearing the testimony adduced at the inquiry, send to the Attorney General a written report that includes: "(

a) the conclusions of the judge as to the cause and origin of the fire or the cause of death, as the case may be; 11 (

b) all the evidence taken at the inquiry; ''(

c) any recommendation the judge may have as a result of the inquiry." For the purpose of refresh ing the memory of hon. members, it might be worthwhile to out in chronological order the sequence of events from the time of the fire untill now. In the early morning of April 26, 1978, a fire was discovered in Apartment 512 on the fifth floor of Elizabeth Towers, Elizabeth Avenue, St. John's. This appartment was occupied at the time by Dr. Thomas Farrell. An investigation was conducted by the Newfoundland Constabulary in conjunction with the office of 1PRS~

December 4t 1981 Tape No. 4034 HJ - 2 MR . OTTENF!EH1ER: Fire Commissioner . Reports lvere submitted to the Department of Justice for assesment by the then Director of Public Prosecutions and his staff. Two of the reports were dated June 7 , 1978 , and July 12, 1978 . On October 16, 1978 , a charge of arson/ under

Section 389 (1) of the Crimi .nal Code was laid against Dr . Farrell . He appeared in Provincial Court, and elected trial by Judge and Jury . A Preliminary Inquiry began befor e Judge Joseph LeClair on December 18, 1978 . On December 21, 1978 , Judge LeClair dismissec:i the charge against Dr . Farrell after finding that there was L'lsufficient evidence to commit him to trial . A formal Judgement ;.;as delivered on February 8, 1979 . On February 23, 1979, Judge Lloyd P . Soper was appointed by the Lieutenant - Goverment in Council under the Public Enquiries Act as a Conunisioner to inquire into the publication of the 10h S7

December 4,1981 Tape No. 4035 ah-1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: police reports on the investigation into the fire at Elizabeth Towers and related matters. One of the recommendations made by Judge Soper was than an inquiry be held under The Fire Prevention Act or The S~mary Jurisdiction Act. Shortly after I was appointed Minister of Justice and Attorney General,I received the first report of the Soper Commission containing the recommendations indicated, that is, the recommendation that there be a provincial court inquiry.

Accordingly, in an affort to provide for as full disclosure of the facts as was humanly possible, on August 21,1979, I announced the appointment of Judge A.S. LeGrow of the Provincial Court to conduct the inquiry recommended by the Soper Commission. This inquiry was to be conducted \pursuant to The

Summary Jurisdiction Act. Judge LeGrow's r.eport is now being made public. - In matter of this nature,the Director of Public Prosecutions and his senior staff have the duty of advising the Attorney General as to whether the evidence warrants the laying of criminal or other charges. I have complete confidence in the integrity and ability of these officials. I wish to point out , however, that both Mr. Cyril Goodyear,wno is at present Associate Deputy Attorney General and Director of Public Prosecutions,and Mr.

Robert Hyslop, ~•ho is now Assistant Director of Public Prosecutions, have had a previous involvement in this matter. Mr. Goodyear was Chief Judge of the Provincial Court during the period of the preliminary inquiry and at the time of the establishment of the provincial court inquiry. Mr. Hyslop conducted the prosecution of the charge for the Crown at the preliminary inquiry. 1 [] h S H

December 4,1981 Tape No. 4035 ah-2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: As I have already indicated I have complete confidence in their objectivity. It is generally agreed 1however,that not only must fairness, legal objectivity and justice be done, they must also be seen and understood to be done. Because of the previous involvement of the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Assistant Director of Prosecutions it seemed appropriate in this case to seek additional legal advice as to whether criminal or other charges should be laid and to seek such legal advice from a person having no previous involvement.

I have therefore asked the Honourable Robert S. Furlong, former Chief Justice of Newfoundland, to advise me as Attorney General as to whether there is sufficient evidence on which a criminal or other charge or charges may be laid, and if so, what the nature of that charge or those charges should be and against what person or persons such charge or charges should be laid. I am pleased to advise the House that the former Chief Justice of Newfoundland has agreed to undertake this assignment.

It is my intention to make his legal opinion public rfter I have received it ,and the Department of Justice will be making available to the former Chief Justice all evidence, testimony,and documentation related to this matter. I wish to thank the Honourable Mr. Fu~long for agreeing to undertake this assignment. Copies of my statement and the report are available here for distribution to hon. members and to the press,if the pages will take them, please. 1PRSo

~ December 4, 1981 Tape 4036 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the member for Port au Port has approximately three minutes. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, first of all, I would like to thank the minister for briefing me earlier this morning on this Ministerial Statement. It is indeed a pleasure to be informed of a Ministerial Statement ahead of time. Mr. Speaker, the matter has been the subject of much comment in this House and in the public press of this Province and it has had political repercussions for both sides of this House. And now that the jury is in, I suppose, we find that there is really no conclusion.

I think the key recommendation or the key sentence was that the only solution is that an open flame was applied to something flammable and that,either by accident or design,the flame was applied, which means that the judge carne to no conclusion. I think the minister has taken a right step in going to the Chief Justice for advice and any other co~~ents that we might have on this side would be reserved for the time being until we can better look at the report, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: Before I recognize the hon. the minister, I would like,on behalf of hon. members, to welcome to the gallery today sixty Grade IX students from Mary Queen of the World school in the district of Mount Pearl, accompanied by their teachers, Mr. Gerry Glavine and Mr. Mike Collins. We hope they enjoy their visit. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 1 rl h r; n

December 4, 1981 Tape 4036 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Minister of Transportation. ~ .MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, I wish to clarify ---the situation with regard to the increase in registration -~ -~ ----fees for commercial vehicles oL Less ~nan ouuu pounas or 2722 kilograms. In deciding to increase commercial vehicle registration fees, government decided it would be inappropriate to increase drastically the fees on pick-ups and vans used extensively in this Province for personal use,and I quote, Mr.

Speaker, from the appropriate submission to Cabinet: "To do so would create an unacceptable situation, since small pick-up trucks and vans would increase drastically over passenger cars of the same mass classification used primarily for the same purpose in this Province:' In the translation of this policy into departmental regulations, the intent of the decision was not implemented to the fullest extent intended. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! f-!R.

DAWE: As a result, fee regulations now being used at motor registration offices around the Province reflect an increase of $15 for vehicles of 5000 pounds or less; an increase of $32 for commercial vehicles between 5000 and 6000 pounds. This is contrary, Mr. Speaker, to statements that I have been making publicly for the past number of months and does not reflect the original intent of this government SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! SOME HON. MEl'IBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 1il8f1·l

~ December 4, 1981 Tape No. 403 7 SD - 1 MR. DAWE: -which recognizes the dual purpose and use of the light pick-up truck and van in this Province. As a result 1 the pre-registrations which will be mailed to all registered vehicle owners over the next number of days will reflect government's original intent,which is that registration fees for all commercial vehicles of 4,000 pounds or less will increase by $8. And as I indicated yesterday and as I have indicated over the past number of months, vehicles from 4,001 pounds to 6,000 will increase by $15 over last year's registration fees. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR.

CALLAN: MR. SPEAKER: about one minute. MR. CALLAN: Further statements. Mr. Speaker. The bon. member for Bellevue has Mr. Speaker, in the one minute that I have let me simply say that the minister can try to twist and confuse and do all he wants to; the fact of the matter is that there has been a substantial increase to pick-up and van owners - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. CALLAN: - and, Mr. Speaker, whether it be $32 or whether it be $15 or $8 1 the fact of the matter is - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. CALLAN: - Mr.

Speaker, that the money that will be taken in by this increase in fees,whether it is $8 or $15 or $32 1 the amount of money that the government will take in is about equivalent to and will cover the increase that the Cabinet gave themselves one day after the House of Assembly closed back in July. · SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, the government has been doing through the backdoor what the y ha ve not had the guts to do through the front door 1i!Rf1'J

~\ December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4037 SD - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. CALLAN: in every field, whether it is moose licences, rabbit licences or cutting permits or whatever MR. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Hear, hear. Order, please! The hon. member's time has expired. Further statements. Oh, oh. Order, please! The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, for the information of the House, I would like to report briefly on the special sawmill assistance programme under my department for small sawmill operators.

The progra~~e was implemented in 1976 to provide working capital to sawmill operators during the cutting season when lumber sales are normally at the lowest point. The programme is also intended to promote employment in the woods industry during the Winter months, the period when rural unemployment is at its highest level. This will be the sixth year that my department will participate in such a programme and its continuance is due mainly to tne excellent results achieved and the low number of losses experienced. The effective period of this year's programme is November 1, 1981 to April 1, 1982.

Since the ~rogramme was implemented, Mr. Speaker, in 1976 there have been 215 loans executed with a total value of $2,135,225. 1 fl r:; h ~

~ :, December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4038 EL- 1 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear,hear~ MR. GOUDIE: Current figures show that the rate of repayment is 92.14 per cent, 92.14 per cent re­ covery. MR. DAWE: Great programme. MR. GOUDIE: Approximately 2,500 man-months of direct employment have been created as a result of this programme. There is co-operation, Mr. Speaker, between my department and the Department of Forest Resources and Lands in terms of scaling the logs and determining exactly how much money should be allocated.

The programme is available to all areas of the Province but the majority of loans have been in the Clarenville and Bonavista Pen­ insula areas. And this year, Mr. Speaker, we have allocated in the Budget at least a half a million dollars to cover the programme effective November 1, 1981 to April l, 1982. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the member for Terra Nova has approximately one minute. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, itwas difficult to hear what the ministerwas saying and I do not have a copy of the statement in front of me but I - Oh, I am sorry, Mr. Speaker.

I am quite familiar with this. This is why I rose to speak on the matter. As a matter of fact, it is not gottenso easily, as hon. members might think,that this sawmill programme has been in effect, as the minister indicated for some time. The problem with 1 n r:; i1 i.

.:, December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4038 EL - 2 MR. LUSH: it was that it did not come early enough in the year. It was a means to help sawrnillers over the Winter and many times they did not - MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible) want to bring it in in July (inaudible). MR.LUSH: Let the hon. member listen. If he listened, he might learn something because he does not know very much. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : AN HON. MEMBER : MR. SPEAKER: Hear, hear! Let him listen. Order, please! Be quiet, boy. Order, please! Fifteen seconds. MR. LUSH: Mr.Speaker, I have not been able to speak.

What happened was that a brief carne in - MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: a further fifteen seconds . SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Nova. MR. LUSH: Order, please! Oh, oh! Order, please! I will allow the hon. member Hear, hear! The hon. the member for Terra Mr. Speaker, the move by the minister, we welcome the move. It is a good move. It came as a representation from The Unit Two Forest Association on the Bonavista Peninsula that wanted this programmed initiated earlier. We thank the minister for having made that move and a good move for the small sawmill operators of this Province.

Now we only wish that the Minister of Forestry 1f!~fiL;

~t December 4, 1981 Tape No . 4038 EL - 3 MR. LOSH: {Mr. PoHer) and the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) will react to that brief - MR . SPE~~ER {Simms) : Order , please! M..~ . LOSH: - and do the things that the sa\-mtil l operators association wanted these t\-To hon . min­ isters to do . A..lll RON . MnffiER : Hear , hear! HR. LOSH: I hope they will move the hon . Ninister of Rural , .ZI.gricultural and Northern Development . MR . SPEAKER: SOH.E HON . MEMBERS: Order, please! Hear, hear ! 10~i1~

December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4039 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) Further statements? ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. ~\ MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a couple of ~ questions for the hon. the Premier in connection with reports that are reaching our ears, and an admission by business and industry, and by people generally in this Province, that the financial capital of oil development in Eastern Canada will be established in Halifax. The life seems to be gone out of the government. They do not seem to be fiqhting for spin- off benefits for Newfoundland at all.

The financial capital will be Halifax - MR. MORGAN: That is not going to happen. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ MR. NEARY: - over in Nova Scotia. ------MR. TULK: It will take more than you to stop it. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we hear reports every day of spin-off benefits going to Halifax and that Newfoundland will just be used as sort of a base of operation, like Calgary is the financial capital in the West, and Edmonton just services the industry. Is that what is happening in Newfoundland?

Is the government fighting at all for the spin-off benefits for Newfoundland or have they given up and now letting everything go to Halifax? HR. ROBERTS: Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier . ~ PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, several days ago in this hon. House I produced a quote 1and I have ten or fifteen 7( I I of them down in my office that I should have brought up with me this morning in anticipation of questions.

The hon. member for LaPoile asked those questions back in '76 and '77, when he blamed me personally, really, for driving the oil companies away when we stood up to the oil companies on our oil and gas 1f1~G7

Jecember 4, 1981 Tape N.o . 4039 NM - 2 PREHIER PECKFORD: regulations and proved the hon. member for LaPoile wrong when the oil companies came and signed t he oil and gas regulations. In like way the member for LaPoile (z.tr . Neary) , is t-rying to do the same thii:1g nolv . z.tr. Speaker , it •1as t his admi nistration lvhich persuaded Mr . Rnatyshyn, the then Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources , to est~blish the ice tank here on the ~1emorial University campus , to deal with mar ine related activities. SOHE HON .

MEf-!BERS : Hear, hear ~ PREZ.!IER PECKFORD: That ice tank HaS to go in Otta1va or Vancouver and not to St. John 's. And of course there \vas also a strong lobby from Halifax , and from other places in the Maritime Provinces . That is a very major facility which this adm i nsitration was succes s ful in getting in writing from Mr . Rnatyshyn, the I-1iniste r of Energy , ~tines a nd Resources in the Clark Government. HR . HOLLETT : You knoi ·J better than that . PREMIER PECKFORD: No . I do not know better th:an that, Mr . Speaker. I·t \vas done 1 1l ~!; R

December 4, 1981 Tape 4040 EC - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: in writing by Mr. Hnatyshyn and then later, the Liberal Government when it came in had to live up to the promise in writing from Mr. Hnatyshyn. MR. HOLLETT: (Inaudible) .. PREMIER PECKFORD: Now, secondly, Mr. Speaker - the member for Burin - Placentia West (~x. Hollett) is getting so excited over there because he feels he has everything to do with Ottawa - I will add, Mr. Speaker, in response to the member for LaPoile's (Mr. Neary'

s) question: Secondly, the Government of Newfoundland is investing over $20 million in the syncnrolift, which the federal government turned down. SOME HON. M&~ERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER ( Simrr.s) : Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: Now, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Development and the min.ister responsible for the Petroleum ~ire~torate are leaving no stone unturned to attract to this Province all the financial and economic spinoff possible. As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, unknown to the member for LaPoile, in the last three weeks, the Minister of Development (Mr. lf7indsor) has entertained and has put on two very highly successful seminars with groups of businessmen from Calgary and Edmonton for one seminar 1 and then groups of bu.sinessmen and financial people from Ontario in a second seminar, out of which have come contracts and deals and joint ventures between companies in Newfoundland and companies in Alberta and companies in Ontario, -f:o:~ which I am very proud. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: So, Mr.

Speaker, we are initiating projects as it relates to research and development, we 1 r!hj=,O

December 4, 1981 Tape 4040 EC - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: are initiating projects as it relates to the synchrolift,and we are initiating promotional activities through the Department of Development to ensure that St. John's becomes the capital of the East Coast as it relates to marine and offshore related activities. SOME HON. M&~BERS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : member for LaPoile. Hear, hear! A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the han. the MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, it would be interesting for the Premier to name some of the business that Newfoundland has gotten as a result of the seminars and meetings that he mentioned and how many jobs we have gotten as a result of these seminars that were sponsored by his colleague. Now, only one thing the hon. gentleman said was correct, and that was that a year or two ago - and these quotes are quite correct - when I said that because of the political climate in this Province, because of the hostile attitude of this government, that spinoff benefits would not come to Newfoundland as a result of offshore development.

And I am proven to be correct, Mr. Speaker, because all we have gotten so far are the evils, Nova Scotia is getting the benefits. Now, would the hon. gentleman tell us what is happening with regard to the building of oil rigs in this Province? We had proposals from DAC and from other groups,and now we hear that oil rigs are being built in Saint John, New Brunswick and one other rig is being built in Nova Scotia. What is happening to that grandiose scheme that the hon. gentleman talked about so much, that was supposed to 1fih7n

December 4, 1981 Tape 4040 EC - 3 !1R. NEARY: take place in Newfoundland? Have they abandoned that now? Have they given up hope on that, or have they just thrown in the towel 1 i I~ 7 ·!

December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4041 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: and are saying let everything go to Nova Scotia and New Brunswick? MR. SPEAKER (Si~ms): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) is far better to answer that question in specific terms than I am and I will ask him to do so in a second. Just let me point out to the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) that in the recent federal budget when it related to marine facilities in Canada 1 there were a number of places mentioned: Halifax was mentioned, St.

John was mentioned, Montreal was mentioned and Vancouver, There was no mention of St. John's at all. But notwithstanding that, Mr. Speaker, we will leave no stone unturned and whether the Opposition wants to see the activity go to Halifax ,we will not allow the Liberal Party of Newfoundland to keep business away from this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: HR. SPEAKER: for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear. Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member Mr.

Speaker, somehow or other when you ask questions that Newfoundlanders are concerned about, the Premier points his finger across the House and says that the Opposition wants this. The Opposition are trying to stop it by asking questions, by asking the government - SOME HON. MENBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: - by asking the Premier if they have abandoned hope, if they have given up and let it all go to Nova Scotia. Now, Nr.

Speaker, would th~ hon. gentleman tell us if it is correct that executives of oil companies and their wives will not settle in Newfoundland, that the oil companies are having trouble - I do not know why whether it is the political climate or it is the other climate - but - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Si~ms): Order, please! 1 i I f.: 7 ')

December 4, 1981 Tape No . 4041 so - 2 :1R . NEARY : - is this one o~ the reasons why the empires - SOME P.O~ . :1EMBC:RS : Oh, oh . l'!R . SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please ! ~IR . NEARY : - are being established in Eali=ax? Is it because o= the favourable ?Olitical cli~ate of the government in Halifax that they can attract t~e - MR . BARRETT : (Inaudible) here - MR . SPEAKER : Order ! MR . NEARY : Mr . Speaker , t:he hon . gentleman is back in insurance - SOME RON • ~1L:ffiERS : Oh , oh ! MR . SPEAKER : Ord er, please ! Order ! Orde r! The hon . member will put his supplementary now . MR .

NEARY : - back in the insurance business , no longer \IIi th DAC . SOME nON . ME!-lBERS : Oh , oh ! ~L~ . SPEAKER : Orde:- ! M.~ . NEARY : ~tr . Speaker, would this be one of the reasons Hhy it is so difficult to get S?inoff benefits in this Provi nce? SOME HON . ~!EMBERS : Oh, oh ! MR . SPEA.'<ER : Order ! Order , please ! Has the ho n. member completed his question now then with the hon . the Premier? MR . NEARY : Can I be protected from the ex-president of DAC \llho is nm11 back in the ins urance business? SQ:-1E HON • ~.ffiERS : Oh, oh ! ~-~ . SPEAKER : Order , plea se! MR .

NEARY : i'Tould the hon . gentle~an tell :.!S if there is any foundation to these reports that the oil companies cannot get their personnel, their executives, to co me to 111f::7':l !

~ :l December 41 1981 Tape No . 4041 ::c - 3 )L~ . NEARY : ~ewfoundlanc,to live in Newfoundland, that th.ey \vould prefer to live in Halifax? HR . SPEA .KER (Simms) : The hon . the ~1inister of Development . ~Lq . NDlDSOR: ~ . Speaker 1 let me ans1·1er on behalf of the hon . the Premier. Let me address bo~h this question and the second part of the hon . gentleman 's previous question . First of all, this on~. t'lP. anS\·Ier is no , of course not . The ·re is no reason whatsoever that oil company executives "1ould not want to live in our Province .

T.., fact many o: them who have come here h~ve expressed to us their complete satisfactio~ and happiness on behalf of their families, t~~t they enjoy the enviro~~ent that they are living in here ,and the level of services and the quality of -life that l>e offer here in this Province,which is unique not only in Canada but in many parts of the \vOrld. SOME BON • t-1E)!BERS : Hear , hear . MR . 1•1INDSOR: ~1r . Speaker I let me also 1 n 8 7 1. ~

December 4,1981 Tape No. 4042 ah-1 MR.WINDSOR: say that there is no basis in fact that oil companies are being reluctant to build oil rigs here. The hon. gentleman made reference to St. John, New Brunswick. If the hon. gentleman knew what he was talking about he would realize that it would take several years to put in place the kind of facility required to build an oil structure,and that St.

John, New Brunswick is the only yard in Eastern Canada that had the capacity, the spare capacity at the present time, plus the facility in place to build such a structure,and that if one was to be built in Eastern Canada, if we are to have a truly Canadian oil rig built in Eastern Canada,St. John , New Brunswick was the only option and indeed that is why it was put there. Other companies, Mr. Speaker, are looking at opportunities for building oil rigs, drilling rigs and production platforms and so forth,and obviously Newfoundland is very much in the running.

The hon. gentleman may recall­ he may not,so I will tell him -that several months ago or a year or so ago this government undertook a series whereby we identified a number of potential sites and we gave preliminary analysis to them in a very responsible manner to provide opportunity for indus~ry and private enterprise and mqnicipalities and groups and organizations to have an input into that process to nominate sites which might have potential in our Province. We screened those and went through an exhaustive process which resulted in a number of sites being identified. These sites are now available.

We have noted the oil companies are well aware that these sites are available and that the opportunity is there for them and we are one step ahead, Mr.Speaker, of other provinces, because if and when a company were to put a proposal to these provinces,they would then have to go through the process that this government has already 1 :·1 ~ 7 c;

Dece..rttber 4,1981 Tape No . 4042 ah -2 HR . \vL.'iDSOR : gone through . tve ha ve icentifiec the sites , t.;re have given preliminary analysis of them and we now know what we are talking about ~;hen • . .;e acd:::ess these questions Hith the oil companies. SONE HON . H&\ffiERS : MR .SPEA~ER (Simms) : MR . NE]I.RY: ~1R . SPEAKER : Hear , hear ! The hon . member for Terra Nova . A final supplementar y.

The han . membe::: !or Terra Nova yielc s for a final supplementary to the hon . member for LaPoile . t>tR .NEARY : Mr .Speaker, I wonder,in ~e interest o: setting the recore straight ,i f the hon . the Premier t·;ould undertake to have somebody do an inventory of all the spinoff benefits and all the things that have happened in relationship ~o t~e cevelopment of off shore oil, all benefits that have accrued to Nova Scotia , do an inventory of what has happ~~ed in Hal ifax and compare it to an inventory 1 f1 ~7r.

December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4043 EL -·1 MR. NEARY: of what has happened in Newfoundland? Just for the sake of letting members of the House see exactly what has happened so far in connection with the offshore oil as a result of a friendly atmosphere in Nova Scotia, a hostile attitude in Newfoundland, WJUld the hon. gentle­ man undertake HR. MORGAN: Province (inaudible). MR. SPEAKER (Si~~s): You are trying to hurt your ow~ Order, please! I believe the hon .. mernber has asked his question. This is his third supplementary and already we have had thirteen minutes transpire. MR.

NEARY: Would the hon. gentleman under- take to do an inventory of these matters? MR. SPEAKER: now. velopment. MR. NEARY: MR. WINDSOR: Perhaps we can get an answer The hon. the Minister of De- I am asking the Premier. Mr. Speaker, let me assure the hon. gentleman that we are very much familiar with what is happening in Nova Scotia and other parts of Canada. What is happening in Nova Scotia, Mr.

Speaker, is not related to offshore oil as it relates to Hibernia, it relates to gas off Sable Island,and it is quite obvious that any development in conjunction with or relating to Sable Is­ land will take place in Halifax. I can assure the hon. gentleman that the majority of the spinoff taking place resulting from Hibernia will take place in this Province. 1 fl h 7 7

-{ December 4, 1981 Tape NO. 4043 EL - 2 MR. WINDSOR: I can also assure the hon. gentleman that we have undertaken studies which would indicate to us that there will be so much activity re- lating to that development that we are in a very happy position of being able to pick and choose which activities we wish to have in this Province and which ones we wish to share with other parts of Canada, and we will indeed be doing that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : ·rhe hon. the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, Unit Two of the Forest Association of small sa\vmill operators on the Bonavista Peninsula, the only association, by the way, of small sawmillers throughout the Province , recentlv presented a brief to oovernment and it asked for three things. It asked for three things, it made three .£Ei.£_Ommen_9aticns t~lp small sawmillers over this rough lo1inter, these rough economic times. Now, Mr . Speaker, the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie), he has responded to the first request. That was easy to do, Mr.

Speaker, because the programme \'Tas in place and all they were asking was it to be put on an earlier date. So the Minister of Rural and Northern Development, he has done that. Now, my question, Mr. Speaker, is to the Minister of Forestry, whether he has received this brief, whether he has read it and what action he plans to take on the step that effect his department specifically. And could he tell us what the recommendation 1fiR7R

~ Decer.ber 4, 1981 Tape No . -1043 3L - 3 t-1R .Ll.iSB : might be particularly as it relates to hi s department? HR . SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon . the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR . PONER : Nr . Speaker , we are having on - going negotiations with that sawwill association and other groups in the P:::ovince \.;ho are in the savnn.illi::lg business although not organized into an association . Ke are having active negotiations \-lit.ll independent P'<llP\-'OOd harvesters who at one time were sa>v:nillers , l-lr . Speaker, ~1ho are now actively involved in the pulp\.;ood business .

We are having active negotiations wi~ the union on ?roblems as it relates to the supply of pulpwood for the inaustry in the Province . Mr . Speaker, as it relates to the sawmill industry particularly, everyone knO\vS that the market is in a very difficult situation . i>le react to that situacion extremely effectively through our small savnnill assistance grants during this time of the year to give sa\vmillers an opportunity to stay in business. That grant 1 that loan is available to every person who is involved in the sawmilling problems in this Province . It is there, Mr.

Speaker ;' The other issues that relate to market con­ ditions , the other problems that are much more an overall part of the sawmilling problems Hithin this Province, Mr. Speaker, will be dealt Hith . Certain of the reques-cs by the sa\v1llilling associations 1 :11'~ 70

December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4044 Nr-1 - 1 MR. POWER: that relate to budgetary matters will be dealt with in the budget in due course. And all I can say, Mr. Speaker, is that we will continue to work. We had a meeting earlier this week and a meeting next week with the sawrnilling people and we will continue to have those negotiations and solve the problems that they have. MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Terra Nova. Mr. Speaker, the minister demonstrated that he is not very familiar with the request made by this Sawrnillers Association.

One of the requests, and one that is under the direct control of the minister, - -- was that the government remove its stumpage fee to the small sa,~ill operators for this Winter, Mr. Spe~k§~, for this Winter, to get them over this rough period. To wait for budgetary considerations is insufficient, Mr. Speaker. The Sa\~illers Association specifically asked if the minister would look into the possibility of removing that stumpage fee irr~ediately. So has the minister reacted to that particula ::._ ~~t;Lue.s.±'Z_ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, as usuaul there is a regular inconsistency in the Liberal Opposition of this Province. We have a submission from the Sawmilling Association of Newfoundland. It is being dealt with by the Department of Finance and by the Department of Forest Resources and Lands and government as a whole. We have another lined up with the Sawmilling Association. It certainly would not be fitting or proper to conduct those negotiations in public.

Whenever we do have any kind of arguments in public with any persons we are having negotiations with, the members opposite always say, "Why can you not have negotiations in private? Why can 1 r1 h f.l n

December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4044 NM - 2 MR. POWER: you not do the things in private and do it in a correct and businesslike fashion-::" That is exactly what we are doing with the Sawmilling Association. We have a proposal from them and we will deal with it. And the first persons who will be aware of our responses will be the Sawmilling Association. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! M...R. • CALLAN : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. member for Bellevue MR. CALLAN: I yield, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: yields for a supplementary from the hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr.

Speaker, I understand that ~ one of the requests put to the minister was that the 11 per cent retail sales tax on equipment, on capital equipment and operation, that that tax be dropped, that they be exempt, that the sawmillers in the Province be exempt in the same way as farmers and fishermen are exempt from that tax. Could the ,,: - .!- .1... -- --~- -='--- -=--minister tell us what his fee:i._;_w::l -'-"' <-uwe1..<.u."' u..LUJ:JJ:J-'-H'::I '"""''- tax? Is he going to drop it? Does he sympathize with the sawmillers and will he indeed be dropping that tax for them? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, as I answered in answering to a question from the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush), that is one of the recommendations in the submission to government that is of a budgetary nature and will be dealt with in the budgetary process. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue. CALLAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I have a question '--J ~R. "'-for the Minister of Public Works. Mr. Speaker, I want to quote 1 fl ~ fi ·t t.~.

December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4044 N~l - 3 MR . CALLAN : from the five year plan that government tabled in this House in October of 1980, and I quote; it says, "During the next five years a start •..,rill be made on the construction of a new Confederation Building Complex to once again ·• - an~ God knows we need it- "to once again consolidate government accommodation "- because we have it scattered all over the city - " at one central location, and to economize on ~~e ever increasing cost of rented accommodation . "Such a new complex would cost in excess of $30 million," it says.

"It has been demonstrated though t:hat rental savi:1gs will be sufficient to cunortize this construction cost ." so let 1 I II:; i1 ·i ,.

December 4,1981 Tape No. 4045 ah-1 Jv!R. CALLAN: me ask the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young): this administration has brought in three budgets now since they took office in June of 1979. When does government intenc-3ince it is not going to cost anything, it is going to be built by saving rent- when does government intend to brin q in t hi s, to start c onstruction on this Confederation Building Complex? MR.SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. r-linister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I do not know when it will start. We are in the process now of engaging consultants and some work has already been done.

MR.CALLAN: A supplementary. MR.SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hon.member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, the minister says we are now in the process of engaging consultants. You know,this idea of a new Confederation Building or whatever has been talked about for years. The former Premier had secret plans to build it and so on with some of his friends. Let me ask the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young) how much does this government pay out in rent for rented accomodations-that no doubt are rented to their Tory buddies around this city - how much is paid out in rent each year? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I know it is in the millions of dollars,but I must say,contrary to what the hon. member said,we have no Tory buddies. Everything was tendered on open and public tender. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 1 fl h ,'i •:]

.J Decemb~ 4,1981 Tape No . .t045 ah -2 HR • CALL!l.N : A fin al suppl~~entary. K~ . SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. member for Belle\~e . NR. CALL.~N : Y.r . Speake r, let me ask the minister then - let me tell the ministe r that the figure is actually $5.3 million . That is what was paid out in rent this year in this Province for rented accommodations . Let me ask the minister if he is prepared to table i~ this Rou se of Assembly a detailed

schedule or plan or t.,.hatever it mig ht be showina the rented a~ atipn s from whom it .----is rented and the fee per square foot and so on? Is the mini ster prepared to table that? MR . SPEAKER: The hon . Minister of Public vlor:l< s. MR .YO~G: I do believe, Mr. Speaker, ~~at that \vas done la st year and I have no objections . I \vill gladly table anything . Whatever they t-lant they can have, Sir . MR . SPE.a_;a:R: Tbe hon. m~~ber for Torngat !ltount.ains . MR. lvAR.~EN : Mr . Speaker, I yield to my colle ague from St . !·!ary' s-The Capes . 1-iR . SPEAJ<E.R: The hon . member for Torngat Mountains . MR.

Rl\.RREN: I yield . MR .SPEAKER: The hon . member for St . :·lary' s- The Capes . M.R . ii.~NCOCK: I have a question for the !llinister of Recreation . SOME HON .MEMBERS : Oh , oh! HR . SPE.ltKER: Order, please ! The hon. member for St . Hary's- the Capes . 1 il~fi;

~ J '!. December 4,198'1 Tape No . 4045 ah -3 MR . HANCOCK : Thank you, Mr . Speaker . If we could only get the Minister of Fisheries (rlr .Morgan) to stop blowing long eno ugh ,.,e may get some questions in here . I have a question for the Minister of Recreation , Culture and Youth(Mr .Andre\.,.S) , 1·1r . Speaker . Sm1E EON . ?1EMBEHS : Oh , oh! MR . SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! Order ! MR . HANCOC!< : ~'ie have been anxiously '"aiting for the report that has haeJl preoared on the Gre"'" n~ --- on Recreation . I ,.;ould ask the minister at . this ti:ne at -\vhat time does :.en-t-i:ng-thcrrrepor-... ...

House of Assembly? NR . NEARY : A good question . M..~ . SPEAKER: The hon . 1-:iniste .r of Cul ture , Recreation and Youth . MR .. 1.\NDREWS : ~tr . Speaker, I re ceive d the report one week ago less an hour and a half to be exact, at noon last Friday, and I informed the committee 1 ; I h M <:; ~

Decewber 4, 1~81 Tape No . 4046 EL - 1 l-!R . .llu\iD.REWS : at the tL~e that it would be tabled in the House \-Tithin a period of t,,·o \·;ee!<s, so t.."lat would give it another week or so. MR . IU>.NCOCK : ~L~. SPE~~ER (Simms) : .for St . :•1ary 1 s- The Capes . MR . HANCOCK : A supplementary , ~~- Speaker. A supple~er.tary, the hon . member Thank you, Hr . S;>eaker. I:l the event that the report will not be prese:-~ted this session of the House of Assembly, \vould the minister make the report public be£ore the next sitting of the House? NR . SPEA.r<ER: The hon . :·linister of Culture, Recreation and Youth .

MR . A..'IDREWS : The hon. me .mbe r must !cnm. • something that I do not know about the House closing or some thi ng, but I assume that we will be here until about Christmas . SOZ.lE RON . MENBERS : MR . ANDREtoiS : We are closing today . Closing today, are He? The report will be tabled in the House of Assembly in due course - SOME HON . .t-1EMBERS : Sha."'tle , shame ! ~lR . ANDREI ·IS: -by law, and it will be tabled in this House of Assembly . MR . SPEAKER: MR . HANCOCK: MR . SPEAl<ER: for St . rotary Is- The Capes . HR . HANCOCK: Order , please ! A final supplemenary, Hr . Speaker.

A final supplementary, the hon . rr.ember r-tr . Sp eaker , I have learned from very reliable sources that this is a devastating report on 1fll:::ii&::

Decem!>er 4, 1981 NR . HANCOCK : SOME EON. ME."ffil'"RS : t-tR . RII.NCOCK : Tape ~;o . 4046 EL - 2 behalf of government . Oh, oh ! I would not be afraid to accuse the minister of trying to delay this Green Paper - MR . SPEJI.KER (S ill"."'l\S) : Order , please ! HR . nANCOCK : that it will never be presented in the House of Assemb ly because it is such a devastating report and it co:nes down hea vy on go •/e:-:L-n enc . 11R . SPEAKER: Orde r, please . MiL FLIGHT : ~.R . SPEAKER: MR . F..ANCOCK : Hear , hear ! Order , please !

I will ask the minister is he using - is he going to stall this report or is he going to present this report as soon as possible: SOr>!E HON . ME:l-1B i::RS : HR . SPEAKER: Recreation and Youth . MR . ANDR£1-vS : l'lear, hear ! The hon . ~1inister of Culture, Mr . Speake r, the Green Paper on Recreation •11ill be table d in t.l'\e House as soon as I and my staff ha ve an opportunity and time to puruse it, to read it , to study it and to presen t it to the public of Newfoundland . SOHE BON . MEMBERS : ~.R . HODDER : t-'iR . SPEAKER : au Port . MR . !!ODDER: r-tR . WARREN : MR . SPEAKER: Hear, hear ! ~ . Speaker .

The hon . the ll"~mber for Port I yield , ~~ - Speaker . A supplementary, Mr . Speak er . A supplementary, the hon. the member for Torngat ,t.!ountains . 1!1hf\7

~~~­' December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4046 EL - 3 WARREN: Mr.Speaker, I would like to a question to the minister responsible for sports. Could the minister advise whether he advised the cornrn- ittee that made up the Green Paper that he would present __ t_ ... - •• ,_ • ~ - it to the House of nesg~bly lP th, n one w:ee.K:, MR. HANCOCK: That is \vhat he said, yes. MR. SPEAKER (Simms ): The hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth . Lv!R. ANDREWS: No, I did not say that. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: 'rhe hon. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transportation. (Mr. Dawe) . AN HON. MEMBER: MR. CALLAN: Swift CurrE:nt. AN RON. .t-1EMBER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER : MR. HODDER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKE;R: (Inaudible) say it in public. You do not mind telling lies about You did. Oh, oh! Order, please! Lord bless us, Mr. Speaker. Oh, oh! Order, please! ~ R. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, from the Ministerial tatement this morning that the minister made, he said that the intent of the decision from Cabinet was not implemented - -- to tne ru~~est extent-rntend ed.

Could the minister explain why this intent, if the intent was to implement a different decision, why it was not implemented to the fullest extent intended? 1: I~ M Q

December 4, 1981 Tape t-:o . 4046 EL - 4 HR . SPEAKER {Sim.~t~s) : ·rhe hon . the Yd.nister o.: ) .. ~ Transportatio:1. l.ffi . DAt·:E : Mr. Speaker, I suppose h~~an judgement woul d be such that the int2rpretation o: the partic~ar information that came do<Nn from the Secretariat \vas not interpreted correctly.

I might po.:.nt out that the people that have bee:1 notified and have purchased vehicles since ~he regula~ions - not the correct regul- ations but the ones that 1t1ere imposed - there are only some 300 pick-ups have been registered in that period of time and these people have ~een notified in due course and the corrections made . S0!•1E HON . ~l:E:-!BERS : Oh, oh ! t>ffi . HODDER : A supplementary, ~tr . Speaker. !>1R . SPEAKER: A supplementary, ~~e hen. mem - ber for Port au Port . 1 ii~Fl ()

\ 1 December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4047 NM - 1 MR. HODDER: So would the minister then admit that many of the statements he made yesterd~7, and the fact that these petitions came in, that the petitioners were in- deed correct in what they were saying because that was the ~nforma tion they were getting from their offices? MR. SPEAKER (Simms)-: The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. DAh~: In some cases and in some senses the petitions were right. I would, however, say that the - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: They were incorrect, Mr.

Speaker, in that they left the impression that the $32 increase was being applied to all pick-ups, and even in the incorrect in- formation that went out that was not true and in that sense, Mr. Speaker, the information was not correct. MR. HODDER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker, from the - anyone reading this Ministerial Statement, would the minister that his department seems to be out of control? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR.

FLIGHT: I have a question for the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands, Mr. Speaker. Would the minister confirm that wood from the Bonavis ta Peninsula is being trucked to Stephenville and bought for use at the Linerboard mill at Stephenville by Price (Nfld. ) , Abitibi-Price? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. 1 r1 8 on

"{, ·~ December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4047 NM - 2 MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member opposite who continues to try and do the job of the Opposition forestry critic, should be aware, Mr. Speaker, that we do not have a linerboard mill in Stephenville, we have a pulp and paper mill. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 1m. DINN: The hon. gentleman thinks we have a fish plant in Buchans too. MR. MORGAN: Where is the real forestry spokesman? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) Order, please! The hon. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, as we know, we did not just change the name from lineboard to pulp and paper, we changed to a viable industry from one which was certainly a pipe dream - SOME H.ON. 1~~BERS: Hear, hear! MR. POWER: - of somebody involved in forestry policy ten years ago. MR. MORGA..'\! : what it was. MR. POWER: A Liberal pipe dream. That is As it relates to the supply of pulpwood for Stephenville, Mr. Speaker, certainly the Abitibi­ Price Company is purchasing pulpwood all across Newfoundland. Actually there is some being purchased from the Goulds, which is certainly 400 or 500 miles away, Mr.

Speaker, so I would not be at all surpised if some of the pulpwood is from the Bonavista Peninsula. MR. MORGAN: I hope so. I hope so. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. member for Windsor-Buchans. 1 n R q ·1

't December 4 1 1981 Tape No . 4047 NH - 3 MR . FLtGBT : Mr . Speaker 1 I 1o10nder no\oJ if the mir.ister 1 having told us that ;t..bitibi-Price buys pulpwood on the Bonavis"C.a Peninsula and trucks it to Stephenville £or its pulp and paper rnHl in StephenvHle 1 v1hy it is that Price (Nfld . } refuses to buy pulp\·;ood on the Bona vista Peninsula from sawmillers 1 the pulpvJOod is left to rot on the ground, on the grounds that it is not econornica~ ~t is not economical to truck wood xrorn tne Bonavlsta Peninsula to their operation in Grand Falls?

They force the sawmillers to leave it in the woods and rot, yet they bu y pulp on ~~e Bonavista Peninsula and truck it to their opera t i on in Stephenville. NO\v vJou~d the miniter get up and in his nice, bluffing ••ay explain that? 1 n ~=; q ·;

December 4, 1981 Tape 4048 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The han. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, for the aspiring new leader of the Liberal Party who wants to be Opposition critic for all subjects - MR. NEARY: Tell us abbut Joe Clark! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, I would be glad to tell hon. members about Joe Clark and say that his future is much more secure than the future of the Leader of the Liberal Party over there! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order! Order! The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order! MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, I would be also glad to speak about the scuttling job that was held in one Liberal Party of Newfoundland, one leadership convention they had back in 1968 or 1969 which they have not recovered from yet. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order! Order! Order! MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, as it relates to forest management in the Province - SOME HON. !1EMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. the minister has about forty-five seconds to conclude his answer. MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, all I can say in those forty-five seconds is thank God that that Liberal leadership convention which was held in 1968 or 1969 1rJ[:;Cj'~

i December 4, 1981 Tape 4049 EC - 2 ~~R . POWER : allo•• led the people of the Provin ce to see •.-.'hat a totally unde!:l ocratic party they were - S0r1E RON . MEMBERS : Oh , oh ! MR . SPEAKE R (Simms) : Order ! MR . POV<'ER : - and allo\ ·led us to take over the government and to put some good foresc managem~~t in place for the Bonavista Pen insula so that no h· \.re have three viable operating , functioning mills in this Province that are being operated on a long -term basis for all the people in Newfoundland . SOl·1E HO~ • ){E~tBERS : Hear , hear ! MR . SPEAKER: Order , plea se! Orcer !

The time for Oral Quest ions has expired . SOH£ HON . :0.1E:'tB£RS : Oh , oh ! ~t.R . SPEAKER : Order ! Order! SOl·IE i:lON . ME~!BERS : Oh , oh ! MR . SPE Al<ER : Order ! Order , please ! ~1R . FLIGHT : (Inaudible) . MR . MORGAN : (Inaudible) . i1R • SPE Al<ER : Order , please ! The hon . the member for Windsor - Buchans and the hon . the 1-!inister of Fo rest ry, please ! PRESENTING REPORTS BY STAN DING A~~ SPECIAL COtLVJTTEES MR . SPEAKER : The hon . the r~inister of Tran sportati on . l-1R . DANE : Nr . Speaker , I \.,ish to table the annual report of the Department of Transportation . MR .

SPB-Z....XER : Further reports? 1 ,., ~ y I,

X "" December 4, 1981 Tape 404-8 EC - 3 ORD~RS OF TP.E DAY On motion , that the F.ouse resolve itself into Com:11ittee o: the t·lhole on said bills, Mr . Speaker left the Chair. COM..Iv!ITTEE OF TEE i·ffiOLE ~ffi . CEALIU·lk'l (Butt): Order , please ! Nhen the Coll'_rni ttee last :net '~e were considering an amendment to Clause 5 of Bill No . 118 . 1,\otR. NEARY: ~tR. CRAIRHAN : LaPoile . ~1 .R . NEA.,qy : Shall ~'1e amendment carry? Mr . Chairman . The hon . the member for )rr .

Chairman,as I understar.d it, this amendment is designed to put ~~e authority to make decisions on e..'<isting buildings in the hands of the Cabinet . \vhen the government introduced the bill originally , 1-tr . Chairman , \·te •..:ere left wi ~'1 t!'!e i:npression and the people o: this Province were left \-tith the impression that all existing buildings \vould be included in a progra~e to give the handicapped access to existing buildings. Now , the minister has brousht in an amendment . No\~ , we Here all for it, Mr . Chairman . No.,., they have \'i'atered it down .

We are now having a watered down version o£ a bill that \vas supposed to be a great re:orm . The ~inister of Social Services (Hr . Hickey), \·:ho is not in his seat today , could not wait to get on his feet to tell us \vhat a great government this was . They '"ere going to bring in a bill to make it compulsory, to mal:e it the la\'1 of this 1 ! I k i::; J; -::

Deca ~ ber 4, 198~ Tape 4048 EC - 4 MR . NEARY : Provin ce, that all ot-mers of public buil dings , apartment buildings and the like , t.,rould ha ve to put in ra.'llps or make their buildings accessible for the handicapped , the people in tvheel chairs, on crutches, a.'ld people \vho are crippled . Now , tve went along with that , Hr . Chai::man . i·~e thought that \"as a very good idea , especially L'l this Year o! the nandicapoed t.,hich is dral.,ing to a <::lose . But now , M.= . Chairma .n, the government have destroyed th e principle of that bill . ~hey ~ow bring in a lvate red down version .

Apparently , they must have ha c a bit of a backlash fro:n the people •..;ho Ol·m apartments and the people 1·1ho rent ;:,uildings . They nus~ have had a bit of a backlash , :·1r . C!lairma.'l . ~o1" they are having 1 I I~.:; c: ...

December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4049 MJ - 1 HR. S . NEARY: back lash, Mr. Chairman, now they are having second thoughts. HR. EOLLETT: At their own discretion. MR. S. NEARY: Now they are sayi~g that they do not have to do it. If they want to get out of this cost, this expense of converting the buildings, making them accessible to the handicapped, if they want to get out of that all they have to do is make an application to the Oabinet. You would not know, ~J.

Chairman, but the 6abinet had nothing else to do only to sit dm-m and spend their time trying to decide which buildings will be exempt from beinq converted or making it accessible to handicapped people. You would not know but that is all the Cabinet had to do. f.lR. B • TULK: ~~R. S • "EAP..Y : They do not do anything else. Apparently they do not do anything else. The Premier has his picture taken four or five times a day and writes letters, replies to letters and that is it. There is no major- MR. B. TULK: MR. S. NE.li_HY: And looks in the mirror. And looks in the mirror.

There are no major policy decisions being made. Now, this is further. This, Mr. Chairman, and they are not going to get the House closed today, Mr. ~hairman, so you may as well relax. Unless they shut her down, unless they shut her down, there- is no way. We will be here until Christmas Eve. And they can try to pull strings all they 1vant now and direct the operations of the House and manage the operations of the House all they want, but this is one time, ~x. Chairman, when they are going to have to suffer it out.

Because there are so many issues to be debated in this House, that I would be prepared to come here on Christmas Day, myself. Now, Mr. Chairman, we claim that this amendment is wrong, it is ill-conceived, it gives the owners 1'1~:=;7 ~

' q December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4049 HJ - 2 HR. S. NEARY: of existing buildings an out that they should not have. It places an additional burden on the Cabinet that is already unable to cope with the proble~s of this Province; record unemployment, high cost of living, electricity rates, ccst of licenses for pick-up trucks, and licenses too. The hon. gentleman is getting ready to spring up on a point of order, Mr. Chairman, well let him get up. In the Co~mittee of the w~ole we have all kinds of freedom, we can speak as many times as \ve want. MR. B. TULK: He is hot to trot, is he? MR. S. NEARY: I beg your pardon?

MR. NM. HARSHALL: I am enjoying it. MR. s. NEARY: The hon. gentleman is enjoying >·;hat I am saying, Mr. Chairman. Somebody- MR. D. G. HANCOCK: Give him a hand! MR. S. NEARY: Somebody must have gotten to the hon. gentleman, somebody must have gotten to the government. Some of the landlords in this city must have gotten to the administration, and they persuaded them, they convinced them that although it was a fine gesture on the government's part, it was a good piece of public relations, they felt that they should be exempt from the bill, that they should not have to go to the expense of 1 '1 !=:::; Q

"' :·.- _... December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4050 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: converting their buildings to the extent that they Nould be accessible to the handicapped people of this Province. MR. HANCOCK: Hear, hear. Good speech. MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Chairman, that is wrong. That is how much interest they have in the handicapped, to let the moneybags lobby them into exempting them from this act. Nmr , who are they for? Are they for the landlords or are they for the handicaooed? Who are they for, Mr. Chairman; I ask the hon. gentleman. MR. HANCOCK: Who needs the help? MR.

NEARY: Who is it that needs the help, is it the moneybags, the landlords or is it the fellow in the wheel- chair? Who are we trying to help here? MR. WARREN: The landlords. MR. NEARY: The sudden turn, and dramatic turn of events in this debate would indicate they are trying to protect the landlords and not trying to do anything for the handicapped. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. NEARY: I can see, Mr. Chairman, the fierce lobby that took place from the time this bill was introduced into the House up to the present time.

I can imagine in my mind the phone calls and the lobbying that was done at the cocktail parties by the landlords and the moneybags in this city who thought that they might have to spend a few dollars to convert, for instance, the lower level of their apartments so that handicapped people could have access to their buildings. I can see it now; they stampeded the government into watering down the act, bringing in an amendment, Mr. Chairman, that.in my opinion is not justified. And not only that, Mr.

Chairman, but taking the un- precedented step-- this is unprecedented- of giving the right to the Cabine~ to decide whether or not these landlords and these real estate owners, giving the Cabinet the right to exempt them. 1;18CiCi

December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4050 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, can you see the political overtones of that? If you are a buddy of the administration, if you support the administration, if you contribute to their financial campaign and you have a buddy in the Cabinet, you have got her made. All you have to do is do a little lobbying with them. a few dinners, a few cocktail parties - MR. CARTER: (Inaudible) MR. NEA."'<.Y: Mr.

Chairman, the people of this Province are getting fed up with hearing about ancient history and they want to· knov.• t.,.hat this government has done and what it is going to do for this Province. They are not interested in talking ancient history. SOHE HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. CHAIR~N (Butt) : Order, please! MR. NEARY: lmd so, Mr. Chairman, I do not knm-1 if the little gift the hon. gentleman passed around yesterday, a package of savory to each member, I do not know • .c ~ ... that fits in- to the guidelines that the Premier has laid down for members of this House - for ministers and members of this House.

I accepted the package of savory in the spirit in which it was given,but I would like to have direction from the Chair or from the Premier, I would like for him to let me know if somebody could tell me whether it fits in the guidelines or not - a package of savory. MR. CHAIR~N: Order, please! The hon. member is now straying somewhat from the amendment. MR. NEARY: I think the principal should tell us, Mr. Chairman, whether that fits in the guidelines or not. 1'17illl

December 4, lYSl Tape No. 4051 ah-1 MR. NEARY: So, Mr. Chairman, in this particular instance it would be who you know. You could bring political influence to bear on members of the Cabinet and the Premier. For instance, if some of the landlords who are very close to this administration, who hold their secret meetings up in Mount Pearl in - what is the name of that? - MR. WARREN: The Chateau Park. MR. NEARY: - the Chateau Park in Mount Pearl, they could take the list and go over it. AN HON. ~~MBER: What? MR. NEARY: The Chateau Park in Mount Pearl, where they hold their secret meetings with the Premier.

And some of the landlords who are objecting to this, the motel owners, who donate the rooms for these meetings and the tidbits and the goodies that go with these meetings, could say, Mr. Premier or Hr. Minister, as the case may be - MR. YOUNG: (Inaudible). MR. WARREN: Some funny. HR. NEARY: Very funny. Mr. Chairman, the handicapped will be very pleased to hear the member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young), who will not be around after the next election, they will be very interested in hearing him snickering and laughing, laughing at their bill, at this amendment. MR. WARREN: Shame.

Imagine the minister laughing about the (inaudible). MR. YOUNG: MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) bury the Opposition. The only thing that will be buried in this Province in the next election will be the hon. member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young). MR. WARREN: And several others. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I am very concerned about this amendment, very concerned about it. All han. members of the House are concerned about it, and I think the word should go out to the people of this Province that 1 i l 7 il ·J :

\· December 4,1981 Tape No . 4051 ah -2 MR . KEJI.RY : it is not really-chis is just another bit o£ <lindo\..r dressing , a bit of ?R 0:1 the part of the administration , a bit c£ Hindo\'T dressing . They sa~·, and He thought they \olere sincere \·Then the}' said it , that they want to do something for the handicapped . But ~·That is more irn!?ortant . ).1r . Chairman , they vla .nt to protect the landlord s and the people \vho O\•ffi real estate and O \offi public buildings in this Province . They want to give them an out and I th..in!< that is \Vrong ,Mr .

Chairman, and I am going to vote against that ainendmen t. I am all in favour of the bill. I think it should be restored to its original position . EKisti~g bui ldin~ s shoul d be left in. I agreed 1-!i th so mebody yesterday when I came into the House - I thin~: it was the member 1 11 71]') ~

./ ' December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4052 N~1 - 1 MR. NEARY: For St. Mary's-The Capes (Hr. Hancock)-when I heard him say that the whole bottom floor of apartment buildings should be made accessible to the handicapped, and they should be converted into apart- ments for handicapped people, telephones, bathrooms - MR. MOORES: It should be mandatory under the law. MR. NEARY: It should be the law. It should be mandatory. Now, I heard another member argue yesterday that, "Well,maybe they cannot rent them to handicapped people. Maybe they cannot rent them to handicapped people." AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

NEARY: Mr.Chairman, in my opinion that is nonsense. If we follow the principle of the amendment then handicapped people will not be able to pick and choose. They will not be able to get to shop around for the best rent they can get. They will have to take the high-priced, luxurious apartments that they cannot afford. MR. HANCOCK: And they will have to wait for them to be built at that. MR.

NEARY: And then they >'lill have to wait for them to be built.Because this act, as I see it now, every land- lord and every owner of a public building, or a public place in this Province, will go to the Cabinet and ask to be exempted. I know, Mr.Chairman, they do not want to spend the money. You cannot blame them for trying to weasle their way out of it. You cannot blame them for that.

But if the act is going to have any effect at all, if it is going to do \'That it is supposed to do, as we were told when the bill was introduced aw:l we debated it in second reading, debated the principle of it, and the Minister of Manpower was on his feet, 1 i'] 7 Ji '=l

December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4052 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: - 'the Premier was on his feet, the Minister of Social Services was on his feet, hailing it as a great reform .- and now suddenly the whole process of the bill takes a sudden and dramatic turn, a complete reversal, qow it is not going to be the law of the land, now it is not going to be mandatory for owners of apartments and public buildings to convert them, or make them accessible to handi- capped people. The bill, Mr. Chairman, the wate:!"ed down version is just a joke. And I intend to vote against this amendment, Nr.

Chairrran, and I hope that every member on both sides of this House will vote against this amendment. Hr. Chairman, I hope that everybody will express their views on this bill. I am sure my colleague, the bon. member for St. Mary's-The Capes (Mr. Hancock), is anxious to get on his feet to add his few remarks in support of the bill and against the amendment. It is a terrible situation. It is hypocritical, Mr. Chairrnan. It is downright hypocritical. And it is a slap in the face to handicapped people in this Province. And I ask the hon. President of the Council (Mr.

Harshall), if he has any decency about him at all, or if he is an honourable man, that he withdraw this amendment and let the bill go through in its original state. X MR. CHAI~~N (Butt) : The hon. President of the Council. X MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairrnan,I just want to say a few words. First of all, the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) is not presenting the amendment in its proper intent. I note, also,that the bon. member for LaPoile is completely at variance with the hon. the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thorns) who spoke in this particular motion yesterday for the amendment. MR. WARP-EN : ~'o/e are Liberals. MR.

MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman says they are Liberals in the tone I suppose that he means that the ; 1rl71il.

December 4, 198.!. Tape Xo . 4052 );z.l - 3 HR . ~liU~SFiALL: hon . me~ber fer Gra~d B~~~ is not a Liberal, '-'hatever Liberal is . But: the hon . member for Grand Bank yesterday got up and made a completely contrary statement .

NoN,~~:hat this act does, just: so that the hon . member for LaPoile cannot aistoxt the principle and the i:1ter.t of this act, v1hat this amendment does, and I read it agair., "This act 1r1ill not appl y ~o buildings existi ng at the commencement of this act except such buildiLgS or class of buildings as the Lieutenant-Governor in Council may from time to time prescribe ." No1•. the reason £or this is obvious . There are already buildings, there are ma ~y buildings of varying age that have been built around the Province to h'hich this act ~r;ould apply.

It may be impossible to alter the e~isting buildings to the degr ee ~;at the government would like to see them altered for the purposes of making them readily accessible to handicapped people . Buildings \'lhich are built: in the future ,the government is determine d that these buildin gs ;.;ill only be buil't: if they make provision for the handicapped in accordanc e \d th t:his act . If the government could 1tbe goverr-.ment .,,ould 1...-ipe the slate clean and do i '.: vii th respect 111 71:£:.

~~ .. December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4053 SD - 1 MR. MARSHALL: to all buildings.And we would certainly like to do it, but it may not be possible in its complete entirety. In some of the existing buildings 1 in order to make them accessible, it would involve probably very, very extensive costs in renovations and the effect of that is not going to be felt by the landlords, whom the me~~er for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) likes to lambast, but the effect of it will be that the increased cost will be passed on to the tenants themselves and that is where you have a dilemma.

Now,it does not mean by this amendment, in any way at all,that the act itself is not going to be made to apply to existing buildings.

What the amendment says is that the act ''will not apply to buildings existing except such buildings or classes of buildings as the Lieutenant Governor in Council may from time to time prescribe: And,as I indicated yesterday,it is the intention of government and it is the intention of Cabinet not to do as the member for LaPoile loves to try to shade things from time to time and indicate that there are people who have favour with the government, who are going to be exempted and what have you and to cast that little innuendo.

What the government intends to do, as I say when the Lieutenant Governor in Council prescribes it means when the Cabinet makes regulations. Sothere will be regulations of general application made to existing buildings and these regulations wil~ as far as possible, make existing buildings comply. But it may not be possible to make the existing buildings comply to the extent that it will be possible with respect to the construction of a new building. So there is no intent inleading in this amendment,in any way,to dilute the application of this act.

And I can give the Committee the assurance that the government is determined,insofar as it is practical,to apply the provisions of this act completely to new buildings and as far as possible 1 :! 7 ;-; ~ ~

~ ;(~ · December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4053 SD - 2 MR. MARSHALL: at all, reasonably possible, to existing buildings. As a matter of fact, as time goes on the provisions of this will apply more and more to existing buildings. I reiterate what I have already said, that you cannot- you know, as much as we would like to, you have to take the world as it is and not completely as one would build it,if one had the opportunity of building right from the ground floor oneself. So that is the purpose of it.

I know the hon. members there opposite are going to get up and make varying statements one way or the other, but I urge upon the Committee that this particular amendment is being led before this House to make this bill to be able to apply in a practical and real sense. ~ HR. CHAIID-1AN (Butt): The hon. member for Eagle River . MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to have a few words on it. There is no question about it that this side realizes that the government is changing its mind on the principle of the bill.

There is also no question in our minds on this side that if a building is extremely old and it will cost a lot of money to redo it and the building is not going to be in operation for a longer period of time,then obviously we do not expect the landlords or the taxpayers to go through that expense. But what we do expect is that if a building is going to be in operation for five nr ten or fifteen or twenty years or longer,even though it is an older building now, then we do expect these buildings to be made accessible to the disabled. I do not think that the press realizes this.

I hope the press does pick up on this. Each year the UN designates a certain year; The Year of the Disabled, The Year of the Woman, The Year of the Child,and each year governments throughout the world throw laurels upon the UN and bring in legislation. And much of it, Mr. Chairma~, is rather shallow, a lot of it is PR jobs,to more or less say that they are walking in tune with the times. And this is an example, this bill, when 1: I 71; 7

t December 4, 19Bl Tape No . 4053 SD - 3 1-'...rt . HISCOCK : this bill lva s brought i!'l this bill \~as supposed to be one of the great refo=rns. And there is no question about it, The Year of the Di~abled designate d by the UN focussed a lot of people 's attention in this Province and countr y and this '<Torld on the nu!l'.ber of people \-Jho are actually disabled . ~-le began to realize he;" rnar:y people are !)lind i:-1 this Provi!'lce, ho;,· :na:-ty are l.a.'"le , ho\v :'la!'ly are disabled i:1 other forms and hc1• many are in vlheelchai rs . We have seen - MR . CHAI:tU>1Al'lf (Butt) : Order , please !

Order, please ! I must as!-: -':he her. . member 00\-.1, you k!'l0\·1, is straying some:·:hat and you would almost surmise that. \-te \·tere in sec ond reading. HO\-Jever I must point out to the hon . member that 1·1e are debating no1·1 the amendment to Cla use 5 and , therefor e, you kno1", while I 1"ill allo\V a fair degree of 1'17i:Cl

Decero~er 4, 1981 Tape 4054 EC - 1 MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : latitude in debating that amendment, I do not think we should go back to the principle of the bill again, that has already been taken care of. MR. HISCOCK: I respect Your Honour's judgement. I am pointing C1Ut that the number of disabled in this Provine~ is astounding for a small Province with the small ~opulation that we have.

There is no question that if \ve have to \vait until the new buildings are done, with the high cost of interest rates, with 11 per cent for building materials, we are going to have to wait a fair number of months and years before we get these buildings in place. The question I would like to ask this government is why do we need to put it under the Cabinet? Surely, it is one of the things that Cabinet, with the offshore and the negotiations anQ other higher forms of politics in this Province, should be going after that.

And if we need to have existing buildings looked into to see how long they are going to be in operation, surely this should go to the Minister of Social Services; it should not necessarily be the responsibility of Cabinet but should be the responsibility of one minister, himself or herself. With regard to rural areas, I would like to ask the question, does this government have any intentionsof making buildings in rural areas available, whether these be their own public buildings, whether· they be community halls, whether they be schools, whether they be town halls or whether they be post offices?

There is no question, Mr.Chairman, that in rural areas of Newfoundland we have a lot of people 1-1ho are disabled and shut up in their own homes all the time for the main reason that they cannot have accessibility to various buildings. 1 'I 7 1: 0

December 4, 1981 Tape 4054 EC - 2 MR. HISCOCK: Nmv, if we are going to take the advice of the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall), he is saying it is too expensive to make these changes. I say, Mr. Chairman, if these buildings are not going to be in operation for two or three years then,obviously, we do not expect the taxpayers or the consumers to go through this price, but if they are going to be over a period of five, ten or fifteen years then we do expect the government to have the priority in this area. ~vith regard to the other part, Mr.

Chairman, I, for one , \vhen we have a UN designate International Year - there is no question that this piece of legislation wa~ brought in in tune with the times to tell the people of the Province, 'Look what we are doing for the disabled.' But the tune of the drum will actually be next year and the year after and the year after that. And with this availability of going to Cabinet, with pressure applied on the Cabinet ministers, there is no question about it,that certain buildings will be overridden if it were not put in in this way. I, for one, Mr.

Chairman, feel that if this is the Year of the Disabled then we should treat it as the Year of the Disabled if we _wa~t to help them. And we have seen the advances that have been made by these people and the inspiration that these people have been-given. It is very hard, Mr. Chairman, to expect the highly capitalist people in ~~is House to realize the needs of the disabled and of the unfortunate and the lower income people. They have no concept, Mr. Chairman, of the needs of these people. And, therefore, with regard to a business oriented government here, 1f"i 7 1 n

December 4, 1981 Tape 405<: EC - 3 H~ . HISCOCK: there is no g~estion again that they are taking the advice of the pressure that ~as put upon them, as was so ably put by my friend, the member for LaPoile (t-1r . )leary) • r ~ould go as far as to say that I will be voting =or the bill , but as for this amendment, r also will be voting against it . I hope that there are other members in this nouse of Assembly 1-1ho 1·1il~ get up and speak on other parts o£ this bill and this clause . I hope that my friend from Tcrngat f.lountains (:.lr . \'farren) 1-1ill ha·,re a fe•tJ words on this . Th .ank you , llr. Chairman .

X !·1R . CHJI.IR.'l~:-< (Sutt) : The hon . t."le :olinister of Culture, Recreation and Youth . "< :-t.~ . A:-:'DREI-15 : Mr . Chai~an, I just want to make a cou ple of observations on this ~ill. ~~~ber one, I think the a~end.ment is a very practical amend~ent .

Outside of money, outside of the cost of installation of facilities for the handicapped people, there are certain buildings, and there l·lill be :nore in the futcre, that 1-1ill be designated as historic buildings in the Province •;hereby the installation and the tearing do1m of walls and structures to accommodate facilities for the handicapped '-'IOuld be in direct opposition and contrast to the intent of even prese=ving the building and its architectural in~egrity. r am thinking about historic sites, old 111 7 ~ 'l

·' "' \( December 4, 1981 'rape No. 4055 EL - 1 MR. ANDREWS : buildings that have been pre- served, lighthouses, museums, Commissariat House in St. John's, the lighthouse at Bonavista. Once you begin to put, for instance, an elevator in the lighthouse at Bonavista, it does not then become what it was intended to be, an historic site. So I think that this amendment facilitates the enabling of the government to preserve that as an historic site, as it is meant to be preserved. That is all I have to add to it, Hr. Chairman. ~ lv!R. vqARREN: ~ i·lr.

Cl1airiL1an. ~!"-. cr-IAn.'.1.11.J'T (_P.ut:+-): The hon,the member for Tornqat ~10\JlJt:i'\.i. nc;. MR. WARREN: Yes, Mr.Chairman, I am going to be very brief. Last night 1 ~1r. Chairma.n 1 I had the opportunity of attending a gathering of roughly about seventy-five men and the guest speaker at this gathering was Joanne MacDonald. If His Honour would allow me, I would like to relate what Joanne Mac- Donald had to say pertaining to this bill and pertaining to the disabled. I may be a little off course but I think it would be very valuable for the hon.

House to listen to some of the comments that Joanne MacDonald passed along to this group last night. Mr. Chairman,last night in her address to the service clubs,she said that this bill that is before the House today is going a long way in assisting the handicapped. However, she said that it is heartening for a disabled person to realize that goverTh~ent, regardless if they are federal or provincial government or municipal governmen~ have set aside a year of the Visabled. It is almost like government are saying you are separating you are saying 1981 is the Year of the ~isabled.

Every year is a year for the disabled and vTe cannot forget that. We have to - not 1 il 7 i ')

tit-., December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4055 EL - 2 MR. WARREN: because December dra1.;s to a close in a few weeks time should we forget that we still have the disabled people in this world. Secondly, she said about this bill which is very, very important, and I want to relay it to the House today, she said 1 ' It gives us access to the building but when we get inside the first door, it is just as bad as it we never got in there at all. What is going to be dcne inside the building after we get in there?' I think that is very, very valuable if we are talking about the dis- abled people.

Are the washroom facilities, the kitchen facilities, the bedroom facilities, are those facilities going to be accommodable for the disabled people? It is pointless. It is entirely pointless- and I think with the response that she got when she fin- ished her speech, it is entirely pointless for government and landlor~to make a building accessible for the handi- capped if,once you get inside the door,then there is nothing done inside. I think, Mr.Chairman, in the Gallery this morning, there is a man who is very much associated with the handicapped people in this Province. I would like to recognize him.

He is a councillor with the Town of Mount Pearl, Mr.Vickers,and I am sure that he is of the same opinion,that it is highly unlikely to have a building with just the outside appearance of t~at building looking suitable for the handicapped• once you get inside it is not suitable. So, Mr.Chairman, I want to assure that this bill - if this bill has the teeth ir" it as was originally set out to do and not give the landlord, not give ~he landlord the opportunity to 1 'I 7 ·j ':\

•l December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4055 EL - 3 MR. 1-vARREN: ><~easel out of something ,&nd everv'·"h.<:!re ~tre are seeing in this amendment that <;e are not going to give the protection to the disabled ana the handicapped as was intended at the beginning. Now .that is my concern, Mr. Chairman, and I think it is the 1 :! 7 i I·

'\ December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4056 NM - l MR. WARREN: concern Joanne MacDonald left last night vlith this gathering. And I would very much like to see the minister withdraw this amendment and leave it in its original context. And, also, when we are going to renovate and make the building accessible to the handicapped people and to the disabled, I think we should assure the handicapped people, and the disabled, and those who are working with them, that we will do more than just have the entrances to those buildings suitable. We will make sure that inside- in fact, my hon. colleague from St. Mary's- The Capes (Mr.

Hancock) yesterday came up with a real good suggestion, if there is an apartment with three or four stories to it, the bottom flat should be designated, where possible, for the use of the handicapped and disabled people. So this is a very important bill, but let us not just have it as another piece of paper and try to cut corners to save money. I believe the lives of these people, the lives of these people are more important than the dollars that this government is trying to save. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) Manpower. MR. DINN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. ~ The hon. Minister of Labour and Mr.

Chairman, I would just like to attempt to ansN'er some of the questions brought up by hon. members opposite with respect to the amendment proposed. ~ow, Mr. Chairman, we had a bill passed in this House several years ago. ~hat bill was found to have very little, if any, teeth in it. The intent of the bill was to do what this bill is doing now. Since the time that bill was introduced and passed in this House,discussions went on ~vi th many organizations. And I named them when I 11171t; ..

December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4056 NJ!.1 - 2 MR. DINN: introduced the bill in second reading. The Community Services Council was one, the Association of Professional Engineers of Newfoundland and Labrador was another, the Consumer Organizations of Disabled Persons of Newfoundland Cod \vas another. Ne\vfoundland and Labrador Construction Association, Newfoundland Association of Architects and Newfoundland Home Builders Association. Now, Mr. Chairman, when these amendments were proposed we had agreement from all of these organizations as to what we were to do with this bill and how we were to provide flexibility.

I do not claim to be an expert on what the requirements are to make buildings accessible to the disabled, what the requirements are in all different buildings, but we do have codes and standards proposed,and we have got the makings of draft regulations now which will go through all of these organizations again, and anyone else who 111ants to have input to these regulations. The difficulty with the last bill was that there was no flexibility at all allowed.

Now,we could put a bill in front of this House and reco~~end that certain people would have control over codes and so on that would be accepted by the people of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, the disabled people and so on. That is not the way things are normally done. To give effect of the law we have to pass regulations. Those regulations, in order to have effect of law, have to he passed by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. So, !-1r.

Chairman, what we have done over the past two years was consult with everyone in the Province who wanted to have input to this piece of legislation; everyone in the Province had an opportunity to have their input. To my knowledge all of the organizations that I have mentioned are delighted and pleased with this legislation. The fact that we had to amend clause 5 (1) and (2) were because 1 i 1 7 i r. --

December 4,1981 Tape No. 4057 ah-1 HR. DINN: some things were found to be impossible to perform. There is no point in having a law if it is impossible to perform. What we had to do in 5 (l)and(2)was to provide the flexibility required as it relates to existing buildings.

So there are some buildings in this Province that are almost impossible to modify to make them accessible - not the ground floor _:_ now, every ground floor can be made accessible to a disabled person with a ramp and so on, but to make, for example, a condominium accessible to the handicapped- AN HON.MEMBER: (inaudible) MR.DINN: Condominiums are covered in here also. I am just relating examples to hon. members so they understand what we are talking about here in Clause 5 ( 1) and( 2).. 1\Ti th respect to 1, existing buildings.

There are condominiums in this Province toda;·, that whilst the ground floor and certain apartments can be made accessible,there are others that simply cannot be made accessible easily. Condominium:?.~ Por example, one of the architects explained to me an example of a building already built, an existing building down near Quidi Vidi, where it is a condominium,step progression type 1 that conforms with the lay of the land. That building, in order to make it accessible to the handicapped, \vould have to be totally redone.

Everything would have to be changed in that building to make it totally accessible to the handicapped. The handicapped people, the organizations that have come into me representing those people, do not want that. I mean,they do not want the impossible. What they want is access to public buildings and what they want is access to apartment buildings. You know,they do not want all apartments,for example, modified so that they are not only accessible but can be used by the 1 (l 7 i 7

December 4,1981 Tape No. 4057 ah-2 MR.DINN: handicapped, every apartment. They do nob want that. They know that that is almost impossible to perform. I know personally of a building here in St. John's where there are six apartments available for the handicapped that are not used and cannot be rented. They have been sitting idle now for over a year. MR. FLIGHT: Because of the Price? MR.DINN: Not because of the price, because they just cannot be rented. I mean,the handicapped people do not want them for whatever -reason.

They cannot rent them to the disabled, to the handicapped people that could use them,and other people do not want them. Other people do not want these apartments built with the modifications , so the builder is left with six apartments that he cannot rent, basically cannot rent in a place, in a city where , you know, the occupancy rate is down to -I think the last figures that came out, they are almost down to zero, the vacancy rate. So that what we have here and what we had in the proposed draft regulations, every organization ,.to my knowledge ,that I have mentioned,is in favour of.

The only ones ,to this point in time , who are not in favour of this amendment or this legislation or the proposed draft regulations, are ·the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr.Neary) and the hon. member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) . Now, if the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr.Neary) would go to some of those organizations - I mean,this is not carved in stone. We had a law before and we now have an amendment whereby we think the law, the intent of the legislation that was there before,can be put in place. If the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr.Neary) or anyone else, any other hon. member in this House can 1 :J 7 i il

December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4058 Nl-1 - 1 MR. DINN: make reco~~endations , we can check it out with these organizations so that these organizations agree. We cannot do these things bolus-bolus. We have got to check these things out ~,d that is what we have done. We have taken well over t\vo years now. The biggest concern of most of these organizations was that we would not get this legislation in the form that it is in, to bring it into the House at this point in time. MR. STAGG: Point in time, what is this point in time, that is overworked. Dse at t.;ris juncture or sorrething. f:.1R. DINN: I see.

At this juncture. So they are very happy with the legislation that we have here now. They are also happy 1vith the draft regulations. Now /there are still some inconsistencies that we may have to change between now and when the Lieutenant­ Governor in Council proclaims them. And we will endeavour to see that these organization are contacted and agree. Because we want a law that lvorks.

The organizations representing the disabled indicate to me that there are certain - you know, they have listened to the architects and the engineers and found out that there are certain buildings that cannot be done, that is why you need the flexibility. So, Mr.

Chairman, I do not know how I can clear the minds of bon. members opposite, if they have something that - if there is an amendment that they can propose that will make this work better,I would be delighted to listen to it, But., to my knowledge, the lawyers 1.,;ho have looked at these things, indicate to me that that amendment is what is required here to provide the flexibility that we need. And I have not heard any organization or individual, outside of the hon. member for LaPoile, and with all due respects to his expertise in this area, I would rather believe the expertise 1 i I 7 ·j q

December 4, 1981 Tape No . 4 0 58 NM - 2 MR. DINN: of the organizations that we have consul ted \vi th over the past couple of years. I feel that what \Ve have here is something that is a very big positive step forward for the disabled, and unless I can receive argument to the contrary that makes more sense than what the legislation says, then Mr. cha.irnan, ~Ve have to get this bill passed. l'.nd I think it is important that we do not drag this thing out. I think it is important that this piece of legislation goes through as quickly as possible so that ~Ve can get the - MR. NEARY: Next week will be all right.

MR. DINN: Well, the hon. member can check ~Vith the organizations. They are happy ~Vith the legislation. MR. NEARY: We want to check on what you are saying. MR. DINN: TWo years. It has taken over several months. It has taken two years to get it to the level that it is at right no~V. And I ~Vould think that \Ve have dragged this out long enough. I think we need this legislation put in place,and I think we need this thing to become effective as quickly as possible. And I think we need the regulations proclaimed so that -...e can get on with the job. So thank you very much, Mr. Chairman . MR.

CHAI~~ (Butt) The hon. member for Carbonear. X "( MR. MOORES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In response, Mr. Chairman, to the hon. minister's final comment, the implicit comment that for some reason or other this Opposition was holding up the implementation of this legislation, that is pure and absolute balderdash. The Opposition of this Province, Mr. Chairman, has caught on for the third time this week. 'Ihe goverrunent of this Province are trying to hood\'link the peopl.e of the Province 1 and now they are trying to hoodwink the handi- 1;' 7? n

December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4058 NH - 3 MR. MOORES: capped people of this Province, by introducing an arr .endment which ,in effect ,ma kes the bill ineffective. It takes the complete substance of the bill and effectively withdraws it altogether. 1 i I 7? ·J

\ December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4059 MJ - 1 MR. R. MOORES: Row the P·resident of the Oouncil, Mr.Chairrnan, has the unmitigated gall to introduce an amendment of this nature is beyond me, after the remarks that we have heard from that hon. gentleman and from a host of government members that this is the most forward piece of legislation in this Province dealing with handicapped people, hnd now they are saying -let us examine what the president of the Qouncil His amendment is saying.

It is saying that if there i" any building in this Province or any builder in this PKQVincP­ whom we want to exempt from these regulations, from this legislation, then we are going to do it. Well how green do you think that the members of this 6pposition are? - that we are going to abdicate our responsibilities and let this kind of stupendous arrendrnent go through this House without any debate, without any discussion, And to make the worst of it, Mr. Chairman,the President of the Council did not even have the common courtesy and decency to bring this in and debate on principle, second reading.

Sneaked it in in third reading, hoping that we were going to fold over here, wanting to get horne for the Christmas break, It does not work that way. Some people over here, and I might say the majority of us, take our responsibilities pretty seriously. Despite what the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms) said yesterday, that I publicly say here now I categorically jisagree with, I am not going to support this amendment, no way am I going to allow the government to ruin my conscience on this sensitive and very significant piece of legislation.

And I stood up here in this House, just a week or so ago on second reading, and gave a number of reasons why I was pleased with this legislation and wanted to see it go through, And now the President of the Council introduces a government amendment that effectively negat"s 1(!7)')

December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4059 MJ - 2 MR. R. r~IOORES: everthing I have said, that effectively says that this bill will only be applied when the Lieutenant-Governor in ~ouncil decides so. And that is not what we agreed to in principle in the debate on second reading. We did not agree to give the ~abinet of this Province a tool, an implement by which they could favour their cronies in the construction industry. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. R. MOORES: We do not intend to do it,:~.ChaDrnBn, we are not going to do it, supposing that we are here untiJ Christmas Eve.

And the only way that I see,in my personal opinion, that debate on this matter will rest, is if the ~resident of the Council realizes the shenanigans that he is up to, that we have caught up with his game and withdraw this arrendment. ''No existing buildings at the time of the implementation of this act will be affected." That is not what I voted for in second reading, I voted for the introduction of a time period by the Cabinet, to under~o the changes, the modifications to existing buildings that would help the handicapped of this Province, and now they are being hood.vinked.

And that is three or four times we have seen it happen in this Legislature this week, outri0ht and misleading falsehoods by Cabinet ministers a~d the ~remier and now this undertakin~. It is 1 n 7:;; -=-~

December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4060 MJ - 1 MR. R. MOORES: no joke, Mr. Speaker, neither is it any secret,that various Cabinet ministers on the other side of the House have friends in the construction industry. AN HON. MEMBER: Slur! MR. R. MOORES: Slur, I do not slur. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. R. MOORES: Yes! I do not slur, I never draw punches. I call a spade a spade! And if you want me- MR. FLIGHT: And a fool a fool! MR. R. !-100RES: If you want me to I will names MR.. NEARY: Garland Clarke. !'\R. STAGG: That is one! MR. FLIGHT: Craig Dobbin. MR. STAGG: Two! MR. R. MOORES: That is enough! Those two alone AN HON.

MEMBER: Do you think you need (inaudible) MR. R. MOORES: Those two names that my colleagues just submitted to the floor of the House are enough, those two men alone control, I would say, more -yes two -thirds, of the structures that we are talking about. MR. FLIGHT: How about access to the savory patch? Is that - Ivffi.. NEARY: Who was their legal counsel? MR. CALLAN: That is a good question . MR. R. MOORES: No way, Mr. Chairman. MR. S. NEARY: '•lould a menber of the Cabinet be representing any of these peo?le? MR. MOORES: This is no joke for the Opposition side of the House, no joke.

There is nobody smiling over here. A concentrated and orchestrated effort by various members of the government side to make this bill the laughing stock of serious efforts to help the handicapped in this Province. And I tell you now, a comment made by my colleague from Lapoile (J1r. Neary), that the appartments that are available in this city for handicapped people have not been rented, the reason for that is because 1;! 7? I

December 4, 1981 Tape No. 40.60 MJ - 2 MR. R.. HQOR.ES : the Minister of Social Services \)'lr. H:icke.yl.t that bastion of sociology in this Province - AN RON.. MENBER: MR. R. MOORES: intelli'gence l1R .. STAGG: O:naudi:'olel. himself. 1-IR •. TULK: Hea·r, hear~- ~ that monumental repos-itory of He lea;r-ned a few words and he Oh., be does. He does · an excellent job, now 'Fred', an excellent joh, MR. R, MOORES: -does not understand that a handi- capped person is not only one. in a wheelchair. Just awhile ago, Mr.

Chairman, I was watching a CBC television progranune about th.e need handicapped people presenting their comments on the need in this Province . and in other ?rovinces of Canada for accommodations that deal specifically with their problem, whether it is cerebral palsy 1 or muscular C.istrophy or multiple sclersois. There are a variety of handicaps that th.e Minister of Social Services, if he knov.cs th.ey exist, would love to ignore them. And this government has taken every ~te.p that th.ey can to evade and avoid bringing in some positive programmes to deal with them.

Ask the Minister of Social Services how· the programme of accom.rn~dations there by the Escasoni ouildi .ng is: working. You have five. or six handicapped people over tfi.ere, ask how · many ministers on the government side have visited that complex, have gone over and talk .ed to these pe.ople.? AccommP:lations like that can work in this Province. Accomrn9dations like that for handicapped people can and do work in th.is Province and the problem is there are just not enough of them available..

And you can not !Harne. the handi­ capped people in this Province for dea .ling with. landlords of the nat.ure like Garland Clarke and Craig Dobbin, etcetera. MR, TULK; And representatives, 1fl7?C.

..... ~e~~r 4, :~r;~~l Tape No . 4060 MJ - 3 l>lR. :-tOORES: ~ho really have no interest in handicapped ?eople , all they have interest in is the dollar , the green stuff . And these are the people • ... rbom tois amendment caters to , \·Tholly and completely caters to . My friend from LaPoile (l1r . Neary) Has right ~o;hen he said that the pressure was placed on the government ana the appropriate ministers, including the Premier , at the cocktail sets , for this amen~~ent . And that is the type of government '"'e have been dealing with for the last t\vO years, un::i.er­ the -ta .ble government , govern me nt by 1 11 7 /r. ~ ,.

December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4061 SD - 1 MR. MOORES: clandestine methods, do not have the courage to face us head on, do not have the courage to come out and say we are going to increase the commercial vehicle licence by $32 and it is good government policy, and then try as best they can to support that policy. No, siree, what you had this morning was the Minister of Transportation (~'lr. Dawe) get up and squirm and squeal and slurk. MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird) : Order, please! I think we are beginning to stray from the bill . MR . .i\100RES: Thank you, Nr. Chairman.

Government by inaction - I am so glad that the Premier came back to his seat to hear me speak about such a significant matter in our Province today and I. like a fool, Mr. Chairman, got up here last week and spoke in favour of the principle of this bill with no knowledge and having no knowledge that the President of the Council (Mr. !·1arshall) \•muld have the barefaced gall to come in and propose this amendment and effectively - NR. FLIGHT: It destroys the bill, destroys everything. MR. MOORES: - asking me to support it when I know the intention.

If nobody else in this Province knows the intention, if nobody else in this Province cares about the intention,at least I know what the intention is and the intention clearly is to cater to landlords in this Province who have influence with the government and do not want to expend the necessary part of their profits to deal effectively with helping the handicapped in this Province. ;,!R. WARREN: And there is a aove,nment that cares. MR. r•lOORES: Now there is a capsulized umbrella statement to cover the intention of the government with this amendment.

Now what kind of respect does the government have, does the President of t~e Council have for this Oooosition to think th'l.t: we would cmver down- AN HON. MEMBER: For the House. MR. MOORES: For this House? - to think 1! I 7) 7

December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4061 S9 - 2 11..1'\. MOORES : that we would cmver down, shirk off our responsibilities and say, Well,look, they cannot effectively oppose this bill because it is a good bill, it means well. So now while we have them at a disadvantage -they have all supportec second reading in principle-:1.0v1 that we ;lave them committed to the principle of the bill, >~e will stick the knife in with this amendment. ' It does not work at all. The qovernment will pass this bill. The fundamP~tal and inhP.~en~ weakness of this type of bicameral legislation, Mr.

Speaker, is that the government will pass this bill. We know it,a~d as long as we know that we know that we can effectively condemn this type of amendment for two reasons; One, because it effectively changes the substance of the bill; and the second reason is that it was slurkedin, sneaked in, unmanly sneaked in to compromise the responsibilities of the Opposition. And the Premier of this Province sits he~e this morning and watches it all go on as if he were a non-?articioant, as if he has really no interest in this. Well,our 'Brian' gave us a new six pound bag- MR.

NEARY: He is going to call a by-election (inaudible) Bay de Verde (inaudi~le). MR. MOORES: -and now he is giving us a new type of government that does not have the courage and the fortitude to face the oeoole of this Provine~ - MR. NEARY: What Tories are left in Placentia now, you can put on Merasheen Island. MR. FLIGHT: Yes, and the population will increase by two. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. CHAIR~N (Baird) : Order, please! SOME HON. ~1EMBERS : Oh. oh. 1 i I 7) q

December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4062 EL - 1 MR. FLIGHT: There will be no trouble to count the Tories in Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir in the next election either. MR. CALLAN: let alone additional ones. MR. CHAIRM.~N (Baird): MR. MOORES: K~. CHAIRMAN: MR. MOORES: (Inaudible) the 300 we have, Order, please! How much time, Mr. Chairman? About eight minutes. Former Premier Smallwood always told me to use these interruptions as a method by which to collect your thoughts. And for that reason, Mr. Chairman, I never shun these interjections. MR. ANDREl1S : myself. MR. MOORES: SOI1E HON.

MEMBERS: AN HON. ~1EMBER: I have never knmvn him very well, Well, that is your loss, really. Hear, hear! That is what makes you (inaudible) MR. FLIGHT: You cowered around long enough at certain times in your career, old man. I will tell you, there was a time when you; wanted to know him. JI.1R . ANDRE\1S : Never! MR. FLIGHT: You used him to enhance your career. You did not do much of a job with it, but you used him. HR. MOORES: MR. ANDREWS: MR. FLIGHT: MR. ~100RES: Hr. Chairman, in relation (Inaudible) Yes, we know. In relation to this amendment, Jl.1r. Chairman, there is no such thing as needless repetition.

I cannot repeat often enough, I cannot repeat often enough what kind of indirect skulduggery is going on in this Province today with this Peckford administration. Nm·;, if I could repeat it a million times, I could not get a better exemplification of "\·ihat I mean than this amendment 1 i! 7 '/ Ll

December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4062 EL - 2 MR. MOORES: that has been put before this House this morning. Unbelievable, Mr. Chairman! You would not even get away with this type of governing in the Soviet Union. You would not,because even in the Soviet Union they have various pressure groups that watch these things and monitor government action or inaction. There is not complete anarchy in Russia. They do have a people - but here in this Province the government and the Premier act like there are no people, like there is no Opposition, like there is no House of Assembly.

They just go off on their own and the y say, 'However we can do this, by hook cr by crook we are going to do it. ' Deception is the root >·mrd, mislead is the thrust. Anyway we can do it, by whatever means possible, And if there is ever, Mr. Chair­ man, an exampl~ of Machiavell1an tactics in the true sense of ~lachiavellian politics, this is it. Sneak it in, com­ promise everyone, take everyone that we can take fer what they are >vorth. Never mind about the principles involved. Just sickening, Mr. Chairman, to see a Premier and a government getting on with this trash and childishness and immaturity.

They do not know how to run a government any more than the banana republics in South America. It is just incredible. And they expect the Opposition of this Province to sit and take it. Now what kind of fools,what kind of fools do you think we are? And that is what grates me, Hr.• :Chairman, that is what irritates me more, to think that the Premier of this Province thinks he is smarter than I am. He may think it - MR. WINDSOR: He kno\vs it. 1:1 7 1 n

December 4, 1981 Tape No . 4062 EL - 3 ~1.R . CALL.il-.N : Does the member for Fo rtune - Hermit age (!·Jr . Ste,.;artl \.;ant Gaultois resettled? SmiE HON . ~.!E?1.BERS : AN HON . ~!BER : <-m .. STA GG : !-lR . C~l : MR . !>100RES : SQl.1E HO~ • NE!<!BERS : MR . CALLAN : re-opened . ~!R . MOORE S : d 'Espoir (l'lr . Andrel ·rs } ­ ~1R . HOLLETT : Oh, ch! Yes . If he did t.hey Houle ( inaucible l That is true . !·lha t is that? Oh, oh ! He does not 1-rant the fish ?lant If the member for Burgee - aay How come everybody moved off hal! the island (inaudible) MR . AlllDRE\1S : MR . HOLLETT : HR .

CiiAL~"Ik~ (Baird) : to (inaudible) MR . HOLLETT: They moved by themselves . Nell , they still moved . Order , please ! r would ask the hon . me.>nber Just go do~n and talk to some of the people 1vho have resettled and see Hha-.: they think . M..~ • CALLAN : Go to Arnold 's Cove and see ;~r.at they say about res~ttlement . MR . CHAIR!·L!I..N : .!>!R • !·IOORES : O.rder, please . If the member :=or Burgee - Bay d 'Espo ir thinks that resettlement ended in 1971 , 1vell that just goes to shovl h0\ •1 \•lell the :Premier of this l'rovince can mislead even his Cabinet ~liniste:-s . SOME HON . ME~reE.RS : MR .

NEARY : Alberta . ~ - l100RES: ment - if the Premier Hear , hear ! 25,000 Ne\vfoundlanders out in T will tell you that resettle- 1 fl 7 ":i .,

. \' De cember 4, 1981 t-!R . PJ:I.TTErtSON : Som: HON • HE~GERS : :·L~ . HOLL ETT : !·1R • HANCOCK : SO I·1E HON . HEHBERS : t·!R . ii-~NCOCI< : HR . PATTERSON : Ta?e No . 4062 EL - 4 'i'hat is a voluntary rno ·Femem: .. Oh , oh ! Oh , listen to him . He must Ho rk in Ne;.Jioundland . Oh , oh ! Nobody wcrks in NeHfoundland . I followed construction 1·;ork all o• 1e r North A111erica (in audible . S0!4E liON . ~1E.I'1BER S : M.~ . CHALR.MJl.N (.Baird) ; HR . HOLLETT : Oh , oh ! Order , please ! (Inaudible) fede!'al governnent thr ough the i·1anpol, ·er (inaudible)· 1117':i ·i

December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4063 NM - 1 MR. CHAI~~N (Baird) : Order, please! Order, please! This House stands recessed for five minutes. RECESS: MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please~ The hon . member for Carbonear has five minutes left. MR. MOORES: very much. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. CHAIRMAN: for Carbonear has the floor. MR. MOORES: Mr. Chairman, thank you Oh, oh! Order, please! The member Yes. Keep her dmvn now boys for five minutes, will you? Thank you, r.1r. Speaker. I like calling you Mr. Speaker rather than Mr. Chairman. I know the difference. It is just that - the intent is still there. MR.

HOLLETT: He is distinguished looking. MR. MOORES: Hy heart is in the right place. Yes. Well, Hr. Chairman, it has been a very exciting twenty-five minutes-or fifteen, I ar.~ sorry. I have been speaking for fifteen r.~inutes. It is very exciting. It cannot be said at least that I do not create a reaction. I notice that the Premier has been chewing on a pencil or something ever since I started. MR. HANCOCK: He is always - MR. MOORES: I wonder is it possible that I might be getting through to the Premier, that he might see the light of the folly of his President of the Council.

I often said, you know, if you never know the difference, if you do not know the difference between actually being Prime Minister, or Premier of the Province of Newfoundland, and being the Premier, 1 fl 7 ~ '-(

'( December 4, 1981 Tape No. 4063 NM - 2 MR. MOORES: then you should ask the President of the Council (Mr. Mcrshall), because he is the Premier actually, but the Premier merely sits in the Chair. MR. NEARY: __ We are going to have a message from the principal nmv after you are finished. 'MR. TULK: In the auditorium. MR. NEARY: In the auditorium. MR. MOORES: We have no chalk though. MR. LUSH: And no money to buy any. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MOORES: If the Premier has no chalk he certainly has lots of cheek. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MOORES: Particularly - it depends on where you go.

If you go to Carbonear - he would rather resettle than go to Carbonear. Although he is trying valiantly these past few weeks, particularly since the last municipal election, to ground out, churn up some kind of a candidate to run against me. MR. CHAIRHAJ.~ (Baird): beginning to wander again. MR. STAGG: Order, please! I think we are It is fellows like you who keep legitimate people from running for the Liberal Party. MR. CALLAN : Oh, listen to the pot calling the kettle smut. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. CALLAN: would you not? MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. MOORES: MR. HOLLETT: Hear, hear!

You would love to be in the Cabinet, Order, please! Mr. Chairman - We are going to get all the eighteen to twenty-five votes because of it. MR. STAGG: You are going to get ~he eighteen to twenty-five votes, are you? 1 il 7 ~;

f Dece::lbet: 4, 1981 ~1R . HOLLETT : l·'iR . MOORES : Tape "'o . 4063 70 per ce~t of them . It certainly ha s been, N?·1 - 3 Mr . Cha irman , a plea sure for me this norning to get up here and submit to th is hon . House , a~d the me~ers therein, my fe\., co:::t.uents on this ex1:raordinary - XR . LUSH : H~mble co~~ents .

M..l'{ . ~IOORES : - these !e~1 humble co:'XIents or. t:· .i:· extraord ina ry evant in the procedure of th is Legislature , how the Governm ent of th is Province , vi s- a-vis the Pres~dent of the Counc il, Pre sident of the E~ecutive Council, can come in and try to hoodwink ~e people of this Prov i~ ce, particularly these hancicapped people , ,,,!lcm I have a lot of respect for oy the way . Because I have people in my immediate family wr.o are handicapped , and seriously so , both ·..rith muh:.iple sclerosis a~ d other types of hand icaps , And I fi nd th is no joke , Sir , no joke at all .

And I 1·1ould consider it a real contribution to ~~e handicapped of this Province,if the President of 1:he Cour.cil 1r17;c:

December 4,1981 Tape 4064 ah-1 !J!R.MOORES: now would take it upon himself in a manner which he can at times certainly do- he is an honourable gentleman, t:1ere is no question about that - to just withdraw this amendment so we can pass the bill and we can all _go home for Christmas. Thank you, Hr. Chairman . ~ HR.CHAIRHAN (Baird): The hon. Hinister of Labour and Manpower. "'Z MR. DINN: Now, Mr. Chairman, I stood up to speak on this amendment because I think that this bill is a very important piece of legislation in this House of Assembly, in this sitting.

I think it is very important for the disabled people in this Province to have this piece of legislation put through. Anybody who has observed the House of Assembly in the past vTeek had seen nothing but stalling tactics, had seen nothing but filibustering . And, Nr .Chairman __ , lt -is· _V,er'y ! __ .very important,and I stress this to all hon. members, it is very important that this piece of legislation be passed. This piece of legislation was discussed with many organizations,as I have outlined to all members of the House of Assembly. The amendment has been discussed. As a matter of :",_ct. Mr.

Chairman, I will say this, the organizations which came in and discussed this legislation in my department, all the organizations that I have outlined previously when I spoke, all the organizations - HR.NEARY: Since the bill came in the House. MR.DINN: The hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) knows that that is impossible. But I can tell the hon. member this, I can tell the hon. member that what we have in this legislation is a bonus to what \ve discussed with all the organizations that I have outlined. They were absolutely delighted, Mr. Chairman, they v;ere absolutely 1 ;J 7 ':i ~ ~·

December 4,1981 Tape No. 4064 ah-2 MR.DINN: delighted that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador recognized, in the Year of the Disabled,the disabled people,by bringing forth legislation such that they would have access to buildings in this Province. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.DINN: Mr. Chairman, I did not interrupt hon. members opposite and I would like,for the next five minutes or so,to get some quiet in this House so that I can outline to hon. members so that they understand the seriousness of what they are doing here this morning.

Now,I outline to han. members, they may not know this, but I outline to hon. members that the draft piece of legislation that I had prior to it corning into this House, Mr. Chairman, had nothing in there with respect to existing buildings and they were absolutely delighted, Mr. Chairman, with respect to the piece of draft legislation that we had proposed, access to public buildings and access to certain other buildings. r1R. HODDER: Because you say so. HR.DINN: I say so. P..nd, l\1r. Chairman, it is common knowledge , it is parliamentary practice that the hon. member for Fogo (Mr.

Tulk) who is now being out of order as usual in the House, being out of order because he is not allowed to interrupt speakers when they are speaking, the hon. member for Fogo (Mr.Tulk) should know, he should know that the piece of legislation discussed with all of these organizations, Mr. Chairman, approved by all of these organizations had nothin0 with respect to what we are attempting to do here today, and that is not only provide access for the disabled to certain public buildings but to provide access to other structures, to other buildings, Mr. Chairman. And this 1 :I 7 "=i 7

December 4,1981 Tape No . 4064 ah-3 :>iR .D.INN : ?ieee of legislation enables the government of thi5 ?rovince to previae access to certain buildings . And hot: . members k::1o~, , that it ha s to be fla,ibl~ because I outlined to hen . members ~at there are ce rtain buildings that cannot be modified , architecturall·..­ engineering -;vi se cannot be :nodif ied and, therefore ,Nr . Chair man ,have to have thi s sort of flex ibi lity . ~~d,:.~ . Chairman, I caution hon . member s opposite .and hon . members know v1hat has gone on and the public of t.lJ.is Province 1il7.iH

X Decerrber 41 1981 Tape ~065 EC - 1 ~·!R . D!~iN : 1-lill knOH ana the press of this Province kno1-1 that 1o~hat has gone on in this F.ouse over the pas~ =e·:! days is filibuster in~, is deL~.ying tactics , t·!.r . Chair:na.n . ~.nd befcre the ti::"e comes I want to out line to hon . members that this is very i~portant for the disabled people in t~is Province a."ld I ask hon . members to co:1sider ·,;!&at 1o1e have here as a piece of legislation .

I ask ho:l . members to consider very carefully this amend:nent - and I a.'!l talki:1g to every hon . :n~ber in this ~ouse - to consider what 1,re are doing here this ::1orning because it is very important to get on lo/ith the job in this year of providing accass ~o certain buildings in this P:::ovince . t-IR . HODDER : it . NR . DINN : Sit do"m and 1.;e l·lill vote on Okay, ~lr . Chairman 1 I I" ill sit do\o/0 if the hon . members will vote . MR . NEII.R:i : moment . ~!R . D!NN : again (inaudible) . MR .

NEARY : Mr • Chairman 1 just for a I will have to stand up (Inaudible) the House - maybe the ,,,ay to get around it - t•1R . Dim!: The hon . Leader asked me to 1 Si ~. down and ue the Opposition aouse l·.ill vote on it . 1 ~ :-1R . NEARY : I am just going to offer a compromise . SO~fE HON • ?-lE;.::BERS : Oh1 oh ! MR . CHAI!'U·1.:>,N (Butt) : Orde:::l please ! Ord~r ~ please ! The hon . the member for LaPoile . i-1a . NEARY: : am going ~o o:fer a compromise to the President of the Council (t·lr . Z.1arshall) . In his amendment would he be prepared to :.nclude , \,·he:l :r.aj or 1 ·I 7; 0

""' Dece:nber 4, 1981 Tape 4065 EC - 2 ~L' . ;...>EA.~Y : renovations take place - I kr-ow '..:hat the hen. gentleman is getting at in the arnend.uent, he does not ••ant: t:o ban~r1.:pt t:he ,,,hole industry . But \..rould he include in the amendment, \•1hen major · renovations take place that they would have to make provision for access t:o handicapped people? i•iR . CFJ\!R."Ii