Volume XLI Monday Province of Newfoundland FORTY- FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush [Pr eliminary Transcript] Number 33 14 May 1990

~ The House meL al. 2:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker (Lush): Order, please! The han. Leader. the Opposition House Mr. Simms: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of privilege, I guess is the best way to put it. It has come to my attention that the transcripts, the verbatim report, Hansards for our night sittings during this past week, have not been transcribed by the Hansard staff. If I am incorrect then, fine, I would like somebody to tell me.

But I happen to. know that we asked for a copy of a transcript from one of the nights last week, Thursday night or something, and we were told that the night sittings, Monday, Tuesday and Thursday, were not transcribed by Hansard. Now I recollect a couple of weeks prior to that, when we had the debate on the Meech Lake Accord, when we had a considerable number of night sittings, in fact, staff were brought back and extra staff were taken on and worked overtime to make sure the transcripts were done.

Obviously, in order for Members of the House to be able to properly carry out their duties, they have to, from time to time, refer to something that was said, in Hansard. I wonder if Your Honour is aware of that, number one and, number two, would he be prepared to do something about it? I think it is important that we have those transcripts, not that we expect a lot of night sittings in the future, but certainly those in the past which, it come to my attention, have not been transcribed. L1 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI Hr. Speaker: Yes, we will take that under advisement and check it out.

I know there was some problem with an overload, but my understanding was that up to this point in time, at least, we would be able to do it. We will attempt to make the provision we had previously. The Chair will check it out, and report back to the House as quickly as possible. Mr. Simms: Thank you. Oral Questions Mr. Speaker: The bon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Rideout: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Finance, on a regular and on a consistent basis, continues to utter in this House irrational, insulting and, in many cases, intemperate remarks, sometimes directed at other Governments, sometimes directed at other groups within the Province. Of course the most recent of such remarks by the Minister were last Friday, I believe directed against the business community and the agriculture industry, with his silly Kentucky Fried garbage comment which was made in this House on Friday morning. Mr.

Speaker, I want to ask the Premier, how much more of this kind of activity and those kinds of comments is the Premier going to tolerate from this Minister, and how much damage is he prepared to allow this Minister to continue to inflict, not only on the Government, but on the pride and generosity of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians? No. 33 (Afternoon) R1

Some Han. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: The bon. the Premier. Premier Wells: Mr. Speaker, intemperate language from any side of the House is not the appropriate language for the Chamber. And it does not matter whether it comes from a Minister or it comes from the Leader of the Opposition, when he refers to the Minister of Finance as being a jellyfish without backbone or a yellow something else, as I have heard him do on occasion. Those kinds of comments are provocative and, like all such comments, when they are made they usually evoke a corresponding response.

Now, that does not justify the corresponding response, and I do not give any particular credit to any Minister for making such a response. I think they are not the approp~iate remarks to be made in the House, and it behooves all of us to show some restraint. Some of us are perhaps more prone to it than others, but all of us succumb to the p~essure on occasion. I agree that such ~emarks are intemperate and ~eally should not be made.

I find it a bit difficult to accept the pious criticism fi:·om the Leader of the Opposition, when he frequently stands and asks of the Minister of Finance a question that is preceded by, 'when will the Minister of Finance, without any backbone or spine, stand up and say something?' That usually p~ovokes or evokes an imp~oper response. Mr. Speaker: Before recognizing the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, the Chair has a duty to ascertain whether OJ:" not theJ:"e is any news media doing anything other than what ought to be done L2 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI with the Question Period.

The understanding to all the news media is that the broadcasting only starts when His Excellency arrives. We have allowed them to set up their cameras, but there is supposed to be no televising or anything of the Question Period, or any proceeding, until we get to His Excellency, the Governor General. The hon. the Opposition. Leader of the Mr. Rideout: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, let me ~efer the Premier to Friday's Hansard, L35 and L36.

The Premier will see clearly that there was no interruption of the Minister, there was no provocation, there was not even recorded a shout across the floor to the hon. the Minister. So, Mr . Speaker, the Premier should do better than try to justify that language that way. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me ask the Premier, today, all du~ing the morning at least, the agriculture industry and the business community were fuming at those kinds of comments made by this Minister, a senior Minister in the Government.

Wi 11 the Premier, as a minimum, ordeJ:" the Minister to withdraw those remarks and apologize to those people who were so offended by the remarks? An Han. MembeJ:": (Inaudible). Mr. Rideout: Mr. Minister o~ the answer when I am least apologize and think that is the could be done circumstances. No. 33 (Afternoon) Speaker, Premier finished. the will At respond. I minimum that under those R2

Mr. Speaker: The han. the Premier. Mr. Speaker, I do not need to order the Minister of Finance to do anything. I will ask the Minister of Finance to review those statements, and if he has done anything that offends any group within this Province or any person within this Province, I have no doubt the Minister of Finance will review it and will make whatever apology is appropriate, if any is appropriate. I will ask him to do that, but I will not order the Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Rideout: Mr.

Speaker, the last time the Premier publicly reprimanded the Minister for making similar remarks about another Government in this country the ,Premier said the Minister of Finance would not be his constitutional advisor. Now, can the Premier assure this House today, and particularly the agriculture industry in this Province, that the Minister of Finance will not have any input into agricultural policy in this Province, particularly when the Agrifoods Report comes in? Some Han. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: The han. the Premier. Premier Wells: (Inaudible) response, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker: The han. the Member for Kilbride. Mr. R. Aylward: Thank you , Mr . Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. L3 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI Referring to the Kentucky Fried garbage statement made by the Minister of Finance last week in this House, does the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture agree with these statements, and does he think the statements will jeopardize chicken production and consumption in this Province? Mr. Speaker: Minister of Agriculture. The han. Forestry the and Mr. Flight: Mr. Speaker, the han.

Member would know, of course, that I was not present in the House at the time. However, what I will tell the han. Member is this, that the Minister of Finance has my total support as Minister of Finance. Let me say something else. Of all the Ministers in Cabinet, I find him most supportive when it comes to my going in looking to enhance the agriculture industry. He is aware of the contribution the broiler industry is making to the economy of this Province, and he is aware of the importance of users, like the company referred to in his statement. Mr.

Speaker, other than as the Premier indicated, we all, once in awhile, make an intemperate remark. The agriculture . industry and the service sector of this Province have the total commitment and support of the Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker: The han. the Member for Kilbride. Mr. R. Aylward: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, does the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture have any concerns about the chicken produced in this Province by the Province's farmers, and manufactured by the workers at Newfoundland Farm Products? No. 33 (Afternoon) R3

Mr. Speaker: Minister of Agriculture. The hon . Forestry the and Mr. Flight: No, Mr. Speaker. I understand Newfoundland Farm Products is having good success with the chicken they produce and distribute to the various users in Newfoundland. I might also tell the Member, as Minister of Agriculture, I have been available all morning and Friday evening, and I have had no representation from any of the Groups to which the Leader of the Opposition refers.

So I don't at this point in time, nor do I see any reason to have any concern about the industry's reaction to any comment that was made in the heat of debate in this House. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Kilbride. Mr. R. Aylward: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I know the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture was not here during the time these comments were made; they were made at a seminar that was being given by the Minister of Finance, for the han.

Minister's information, and there was no heated debate at the time when he clearly insulted the farmers, the fast food industry in this Province, and the workers who produce chickens for this industry. Does the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture think the statement made by the Minister of Finance will jeopardize the recommendations of the Agrifoods Task Force, in that they will now be aware that one Minister in this Government has suggested that the chicken produced in this Province is not up to standard? Mr. Speaker: Minister of Agriculture . The han. Forestry the and L4 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI Mr.

Flight: No, Mr . Speaker, I don't think so. And I have to say to the han. Member, with his knowledge of the industry, he does not think so either . An Hon. Member: Oh , is that so? Mr. Speaker: Order, please! The han. the Member for Kilbride. Mr. R. Aylward: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am surpdsed that the Minister of Agriculture is not standing here defending the producers of this Province. I find it insulting!

Does the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture agree with me, that the Minister of Finance should apologize to the agriculture industry in this Province, to the manufacturers of chicken in this Province, and the retail outlets who sell Newfoundland produce in this Province?. Mr. Speaker : Minister of Agriculture. The han. Forestry the and Mr. Flight: Mr. Speaker, thank you. In answer to that question, I defer to the Premier's comment. I have enough confidence in the Minister · of Finance to know that he will do anything he feels is necessary with regard to any situation in which he finds himself. Thank you. Mr.

Speaker: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main. Mr. Doyle: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. The Minister is undoubtedly aware by now that the unemployment figures have been released which show an increase of 1.7 percentage points in the unemployment rate No. 33 (Afternoon) R4

.. over the same time period last year. And, incidentally, the unemployment rate has been up for every single month with the exception of one month over the last twelve month period, and, Mr. Speaker, that's at a time when the unemployment rate traditionally decreases because of construction and other activities which get underway in spring. Now that the Minister is aware of that, will she please tell the House once and for all what she is going to do to deal with the crisis in unemployment in the Province, and what she is going to do to reverse that trend? Mr.

Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. Ms Cowan: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Again, I will answer this question. It has not been asked to me for sometime, but I do recall it from, I think, a previous Session of the House. My Portfolio works with all of Government in order to improve the employment opportunities for people in this Province: Development has a role to play, the Fisheries, Mining and Energy, a whole variety, Agriculture and so on. We are all working together.

Also, we have our Commission, and all of us together are trying to address problems that will make this Province more economically viable over the long tet"ffi. You will be well aware, Sir, from having a look at the Budget, of the specific programs which are set up in my Department to address some specific segments of the population which are having employment problems. Mr. Speaker: The bon. the Member for Harbour Main. LS May 14, 1990 Vol XLI Mr. Doyle: Mr. Speaker, I would remind the Minister that her main mandate is the creation of employment in the Province, not unemployment.

Now the Minister told us last that the · money $2.9 million, used up - I believe she said it was all used up and no more money is going to be approved this year. week, Mr. for job has been Speaker, creation, all but In view of this alarming news of a 1.7 percentage point increase in unemployment in the Province, I would ask the Minister can we now expect to see additional funding approved for job creation in Newfoundland? Mr. Speaker: The bon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. Ms Cowan: My Department and the Government is always monitoring the employment figures.

If we come to a stage where we see a need for some sort of employment creation program, then we will act upon that. Mr. Speaker: The bon. the Member for Harbour Main. Mr. Doyle: Mr. Speaker, undoubtedly the Minister is keeping a very, ver:y close watch on out-migr:ation to other: parts of Canada. Obviously, out-migration must be up if the unemployment rate is up, which it is over the last twelve month period for every month.

Would the Minister please tell us what the current rate of out-migration is for the first three or four months of this year as compared to last year, and what her plans are to stem that out-migration? No. 33 (Afternoon) RS

Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. Ms Cowan: I think it is rather amusing to be questioned here as if I were a high school student as to giving answers on what is the out-migration rate and so on. Certainly, we keep our eye - Mr. Tobin: (Inaudible). the Minister. You are Ms Cowan: I beg your pardon. I would like quiet to speak. Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! . An Hon. Me mber: You are behaving like a high school teacher. Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Ms Cowan: I took lessons. I have had lessons in it for a long time.

We are continually monitoring statistics and, as well, from time to time recommend to Cabinet certain programs we think will address them and then Cabinet will make the decision as to whether or not those programs are appropriate. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for St. John's East Extern. Mr. Parsons: question is to Environment and Mr. Speaker, the Minister Lands. Has my of the Minister of Environment and Lands made representation to his Federal counterpart expressing his concerns over the environmental damage done by the draggers on our spawning grounds? Mr.

Speaker : The hon. the Minister of Environment and Lands. L6 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI Mr. Kelland: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. No, not specifically on that point, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for St. John's East Extern. Mr. Parsons: Thank . you, Mr. Speaker . Is the Minister aware that Judge Dube said, This question will be answered by trial, but it is surely a serious issue economically, socially and legally as well? It is not a frivolous question. In light of this serious statement, I ask the Minister would he also express his concerns in the strongest possible way to the Federal Minister? Mr.

Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Lands . Mr. Kelland: Of course, Mr. Speaker. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: The han. the Member for St. John's East Extern. Mr. Parsons: Mr. Speaker, because this is a concern for so many people in Newfoundland and Labrador, so many communities, I ask the Minister again, surely goodness! at this late date is he telling this han. House that he has made no representation whatsoever to the Minister with the concerns of the people? And why have you not made it?

Why have you not asked the Federal people what is going on as it pertains to the environmental damage that could be caused by this dragging on our spawning grounds? Mr. Speaker: The han. the Minister of Environment and Lands. Mr. Kelland: Mr. Speaker, I am concerned about the environment naturally, as is this No . 33 (Afternoon) R6

Administration. But matters pertaining to the fishery are left in the hands of the Minister of Fisheries, and matters of the environment directly, and over which we have some jurisdiction, will be with my Department. Mr. Speaker: The bon. the Member for Port au Port. Mr. Hodder: Mr. Speaker, I heard some comments over the weekend and this morning, and looking at the papers I would like to ask a question to the Minister of Social Services. I am aware that there are problems at Coach House, but my question to the Minister is do you presently have alternate accommodations for the boys who are leaving?

Where are they? What type of accommodations are they? Mr. Speaker: The bon. the Minister of Social Services. Mr. Efford: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all, there had been a lot of problems at the Coach House, long before I became Minister of Social Services. In fact, problems we are quite scared might turn into something very, very serious. So we decided to take some ·action before something serious happens. There are two boys presently at the Coach House. Preparations were made by social workers of the Department of Social Services to do a full assessment. That assessment was completed this morning.

They will be set up in a semi-independent living program. We already have a program which was developed by the Child Welfare Director, Mr. Stapleton, into something for the future, and that will be discussed by officials of my Department. When that decision is made, Mr. Speaker, I will be making a public L7 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI announcement to the House of Assembly on those matters. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Port au Port. Mr. Hodder: Mr.

Speaker, that answer does not jibe with information I was given by his director this morning, nor does it jibe with information given me by the Director of the Home •this morning. First of all, the Director of the Home told me there were four people there at lhe present time; that was this morning~ just before I came into the House. Secondly, his Director told me that no programs had been developed, and they-did not expect any programs to be developed for six weeks, that they had started two weeks ago and they did not know where they would be going.

Now, in light of that, I would like to ask the Minister if the problems of the young people involved can be dealt with in a foster home situation? If programs can be designed for each individual young person, does the Minister not think that six weeks is a very short time to design those programs? Why did the Minister put a closing date on that facility before programs and needs of the young people were fully assessed? And why did the Minister not have an alternate facility or alternate programs ready before he announced the closure of that institution? Mr. Speaker: The han. the Minister of Social Services. Mr.

Efford: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would have thought, from my former days in the Opposition, that he han. Member would have had the ability to research the question and find No. 33 (Afternoon) R7

out the answer before he asked it. I can assure the hon. Member that whoever gave him the answers, or whichever way he interpreted them, they are absolutely wrong. First of all, there are a number of employees at the facility now, and we have set a closing date of June 30. We did not want to close that facility after something serious had happened, it would just be a reactionary. We would much rather close the facility before something happens. Secondly, for the number of boys there now there will be an interim program in place. They will be placed in special care with the proper support services. An Hon.

Member: Where? Where? Mr. Efford: In foster homes with special care - not the regular foster home situation - until the proper programs are put in place. In answer to his third question, did we close the Coach House without some sort of alternate program in place for the future? No, Mr. Speaker.

We have a pilot project proposal in place, therapeutic foster home care, where we will be involving special foster· homes, professional people, with the proper counselling services on an individual basis, because we believe it is very serious to keep five boys in one institution with severe behavioural problems; it has not worked in the number years the Coach House has been developed. But the program being put in place now by the Director of Child Welfare is a program that is adequate to serve the needs of those boys, Mr. Speaker, and it will be put in place. It is not something we are dreaming up.

We did not react to something for the L8 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI short term; a long-term program is being put in place, we have it on paper, and when it is ready to be presented to the House of Assembly, I will be making a public announcement . An Hon. Member: staff? (Inaudible) your Mr. Speaker: The hon . the Member for Port au Port. e Mr. Hodder: Mr. Speaker, I spoke to the Director of Child Welfare, whom the Minister refers to, and he told me he could not tell me where the students were going .. to go, because it would be six more weeks before tbe program.

They did not know they were going to design the program around the individual student, and that is the basis on which I asked the question. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Order, please! Hon. Members are increasingly debating the answers. Mr. Hodder: It is hard not to. Mr. Speaker: As bon. Members know, that is not within the rules of the House. On a supplementary, hon. Members should proceed to the question as quickly as possible. The hon. the Member for Port au Port. Mr. Hodder: Mr.

Speaker, the Minister closed the Remand Centre and did nothing to improve the situation, and now he has closed this particular - my question to the Minister: is this another of his pigheaded decisions carried through blindly? If the building No. 33 (Afternoon) R8

.:;!.( was inadequate, why did he not find another facility? And why did he not make sure that programs were designed around those children and the foster homes? At the present time, it is seventeen to four down there. It is not two at the present time, ·or else somebody is lying. It is seventeen to four, and they are highly - why didn't the Minister have these programs ready before he moved those children? Is this a cost-saving measure? Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: The bon. the Minister of Social Services. Mr. Efford: Mr.

Speaker, in all cases any Minister responsible for his Department would take financial costs into concern when he is dealing with any program. But I can assure this bon. House that at no time was the financial aspect of this particular program given any consideration when the decision was made to close the Coach House. We decided, not I decided, we decided on the advice of the Director of Child Welfare and that officials in the Department, it was better to close the Coach House before serious happened. something An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Efford: And the bon. the Member - Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Mr.

Efford: The bon. Member keeps referring to the fact that there is no program in place. I have said very clearly that there is an interim program being put in place to deal with the boys until a final program for the future, not something to react to in short L9 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI term - we need to do something positive for those boys, unlike the former Administration who left them down there. The Royal Newfoundland Constabulary, the neighbors, the staff at the Coach House and everybody concerned advised the then Minister of the major problems they were having. And it has not stopped.

We have now made a decision in the best interest of the boys. And if the Opposition critic or anybody in the public thinks they are going to change our minds and we are going to be pressured into making a wrong decision, they are absolutely wrong. The one concern we do have is the interest of the youth. There will be a better program, which we already have in the development stage, and we have an interim program for the short term. And when the six weeks are up, on the 30th of June, those boys will be well taken care of, and nobody will get lost in the cracks. Some Hon. Members: Where? Where? Where? Mr.

Speaker: The bon. the Opposition House Leader. Mr. Simms: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Premier. From time to time, the Premier as Leader of the Government and the Minister of Municipal Affairs have been accused of forcing amalgamation down the throats of various communities. I have heard the Premier, of course, deny that. In fact, I think he has said the Government is not forcing amalgamation, that there are no fait accomplis, shall we say, with respect to the amalgamation process. Can he confirm that this is still, in fact, the Government's position on the issue? No. 33 (Afternoon) R9

Mr. Speaker: The han. the Premier. Premier Wells: I will restate again the Government's policy with respect to amalgamation. We will do everything possible to induce communities to amalgamate where it is appropriate that · they should amalgamate. If particular communities do not want to amalgamate, the Government will not pressure or force amalgamation by order of the Cabinet, as it can do under the existing legislation.

Now, I have also said that it may be that next year, this year, five years from now, a circumstance could occur where everybody is absolutely certain that any one particular community should be amalgamated, that it is totally irrational and wrong to preserve a situation with a separate municipality in a given situation. In that circumstance, if the Government felt it was the appropriate thing to do, we would bring legislation before this House to do it. I do not foresee at this moment any circumstance where that would be the appropriate thing to do, but I do not preclude the possibility of it. Mr.

Speaker: The han. the Opposition House Leader. Mr~ Simms: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In view of the Premier's statement, where he now confirms that nothing will be forced, and in view of the fact that there is a process in place for public hearings, ongoing meetings, and a board of commissioners who are expected to make recommendations, I want to ask my supplementary to the Minister of Municipal Affairs. Is the Minister aware of the statement of his colleague, the Minister of Forestry, made last Wednesday, in Windsor, where he said and I quote, at least from LlO May 14, 1990 Vol XLI an newspaper

article which quoted him, 'the Minister of Forestry told Windsor residents and Chamber of Commerce that by fall the communities of Grand Falls and Windsor will be amalgamated. ' If he is aware of statement, and I am sure he is, doesn't he think that such a statement from a Cabinet Minister makes a mockery and a sham of the whole public hearings process, the ongoing meetings that are being held, and most importantly, the yet-to-be-released recommendations of the commissioners who might very well recommend against amalgamation? Can I ask the Minister if he is aware of those statements? Mr.

Speaker: The han. the Premier. Premier Wells: Mr. Speaker, the Member asked the question of me first as to what the Government policy is? I do not know whether the Minister said those precise words or if he did not, but I will ask him. I know it was reported in the newspaper, but han. Members know that newspapers are not always absolutely correct, although in this instance they may be. And it may be that the han. Member took it out of context, I do not know. But the Government's policy is exactly as I have - Some Han. Members: Oh, oh! Premier Wells: I will start again, Mr. Speaker.

The Government's policy is exactly as I have enunciated it here, and Windsor and Grand Falls will know that the Government is not going to force amalgamation on Windsor and Grand Falls. But equally, Mr. Speaker, the Government is not going to allow to persist forever the totally unfair situation that exists at this moment in Grand No. 33 (Afternoon) RlO

Falls, and if the two communi ties choose not to amalgamate, the Government will take other action to resolve the problem, and that may well be by fall. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Opposition House Leader. Mr. Simms: Mr. Speaker, this must be the flip-flop of the decade. The Premier, during the same Question Period, in a series of answers , says on the one hand no, we will not force, and then says he will. I want to ask my final suppiementary to the Minister pf Municipal Affairs, who is speaking, I under~tand, tonight in Central Newfoundland, as he told me on Friday, to the Grand Falls Chamber of Commerce out there. By the way, I will table the newspaper

article to show that I did not take it out off context.

I would like to ask the Minister of Municipal Affai~s if he will take the opportunity tonight, when he speaks to the Chamber of Commerce in Grand Falls, to publicly indicate to the people of both communities that in fact the Government's policy is not to force amalgamation, that in fact Government's policy is to let the process follow the normal way it would, that you are waiting for the recommendations of the commissioners, and that, indeed, the comments of the Minister of Forestry, if indeed they are accurate and true, are totally wrong and improper, and that the Minister of Forestry should not have made such statements?

Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. Mr. Gullage: Mr. Speaker, in fact I understand the Minister's comments in Grand Falls are very Lll May 14, 1990 Vol XLI similar to the comments you just made. In fact, he did take time to say that we were at a stage in the procedures right now where we were awaiting the commissioner's report, which is being written right now by the two commissioners, a report to me as the Minister, and following that report, of course, I will know how the commissioners feel about the proposed amalgamation.

That is one part of the feasibility process; it is about 20 per cent of the process, and the rest of the feasibility process has to be carried out. But, ultimately, they will write a report for me and following that, of course, I will have a dialogue with the towns involved.

Yes, tonight I will go to great pains to explain the procedure, as I have done on many, many occasions when I have spoken about amalgamation, explain the procedure involved, in that we will carry out the balance of the feasibility process, await the commissioner's report, and then proceed to make a decision as Minister, first of all, and finally a recommendation to Government as to whether or not we should proceed with a recommendation to Government, in the first instance, and then ultimately whether or not amalgamation is recommended. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Fogo. Mr. Winsor: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the Minister of Fisheries. Is the Minister of Fisheries aware that under this year's salmon management plan there are proposals along several salmon fishing rivers, or mouths of the rivers, to move the caution boards No. 33 (Afternoon) Rll

a considerable distance from where they were last year, and that if this plan is implemented, several fishermen will no longer have a place to fish? Mr. Speaker: The Minister of Fisheries. han. the Mr. Carter: I apologize. I was reading something here. Would he mind repeating the queseion? Mr. Speaker: The han. the Member for Fogo. Mr. Winsor: Mr.

Speaker, my question to the Ministei· of Fisheries: Is he aware that under this year's salmon management plan there are proposals to move the caution boards some considerable distance, miles as a matter of fact, from where they were placed last year, and if this is indeed the case, several fishermen will have no place to fish? Mr. Speaker: The Minister of Fisheries . han. the Mr. Carter: Mr. Speaker, I am aware of that. There are talks going on between the Federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans and other interests with respect to salmon management.

We have made certain views known to Ottawa in that respect, and I '11 be happ .y to table at the appropriate time, copies of my correspondence in that regard. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Fogo. Mr. Winsor: Mr. Speaker, this is more than talks. DFO officials met fishermen in my district yesterday, six of them, telling them that the caution boards were indeed going to be moved and they would not have a place to fish. Ll2 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI The Minister has said on many occasions in this House that he stands solidly behind the commercial salmon fishermen of this Province.

Will he, or as he made representation to DFO to articulate the Province's position as it relates to the commercial salmon fishery? Mr. Speaker: The Minister of Fisheries. han. the Mr. Carter: Mr. Speaker, I say again what I have said publicly, that we are behind the commercial ,salmon fishery. We all realize that certain changes have probably had to be made, but certainly we are going to stand behind the commercial salmon fishery. We realize that certain adjustments will be necessary to protect the salmon stocks, and we have made those views known to Ottawa. Mr. Speaker: Oral Question Period has expired.

Some Han. Members: Hear, hear! Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees Mr. Speaker: The han. the Minister of Finance . Dr. Kitchen: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to table the report of the Commission of Inquiry on Pensions which the Government has recently received and after we review it, we will be making a further statement. Notices of Motion No. 33 (Afternoon) Rl2

Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for LaPoile. Mr. Ramsay: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following resolution:

WHEREAS the inshore fixed gear fishery on the south/south west and west coast of the Province have experienced dismal catch failures over the last several years; and

WHEREAS fishermen areas in in very and inshore fixed gear and plant workers in the question find themselves difficult circumstances;

WHEREAS these fishermen and plant workers have called on the Federal Government to provide financial assistance to meet their immediate circumstances; and

WHEREAS the recently announced Federal Fisheries Response Program made no reference to the plight of these fishermen and plant workers; and

WHEREAS the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador has made repeated requests to the Federal Government to address this serious problem; and BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that this hon. House expresses its dissatisfaction over the failure of the Federal Government to respond to the needs of inshore fixed gear fishermen and affected plant workers in said referenced areas; and BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this hon.

House calls upon the Federal Government to immediately implement a financial assistance package which adequately addresses L13 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI the immediate economic difficulties of fixed gear fishermen and plant workers along the south/south west and west coast of this Province. Thank you Mr. Speaker. Petitions Mr. Speaker: The bon. the Member for Port au Port. Mr. Hodder: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of 179 residents of the communities of Lourdes, L'Anse-aux-Canard, Winterhouses, Mainland, Three Rock Cove and West Bay.

Mr: Speaker, the petition has been addressed to this House and the Federal House but the prayer of the petition reads: We the undersigned fishermen of Black Duck Brook petition the Provincial and Federal Governments to ensure the fourteen week requirement for unemployment insurance be reduced to ten weeks. Mr. Speaker, I would read perhaps the letter that accompanied the petition and refer the petition to perhaps the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations who could then refer the petition to her counterpart in Ottawa, perhaps.

It was the clear intention of the petitioners that their prayer should be heard, and I believe it should be heard. But the letter involved said 'the fishermen of this area are disappointed over the fact that with all of the hard times we have experienced over the years, this year will be the worst. • It goes on to talk about ice conditions that have already affected the lobster fishermen of Port au Port. I think hon. gentlemen might know or they might No. 33 (Afternoon) Rl3

be interested in knowing that Port au Port supplies 20 per cent of the lobsters of the whole Province. And they feel with the closure of their fish plant, with the severe ice conditions, and with the normal stormy conditions that this year will be a very hard year on them indeed, with having to have fourteen weeks to quality instead of ten. And they are asking that we do something about it. So, Mr. Speaker, I will table this petition and ask that it be referred to the Department of Employment and Labour Relations and perhaps that the Minister would forward it on to her counterpart in Ottawa. Mr.

Speaker: The han. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. Ms Cowan: Yes, I thank the Member for bringing that to the attention of the House and to my attention, in particular. He will be aware, of course, that this is a concern that we all have in the whole House and I have been continually talking to the han. Barbara McDougall about that matter, and, in fact, just recently had written to her about some people who fish in Labrador. So certainly I wi 11 be glad to send supporting letters along with this. Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Orders of the Day Mr. Baker: Order 2, Mr. Speaker . Mr.

Speaker: Order 2 - The Motion is that I do now leave the Chair and that the House resolve itself into a Committee on Supply. L14 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. Committee of the Whole on Supply Mr. Chairman: Order, please! The han. Leader. the Opposition House Mr. Simms: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

In continuing debate on the Estimates of Executive Council it has become evident over the past number of days and nights - I am sorry to keep the Minister of Education awake there it has become evident that Members on both sides of the House have taken advantage of the opportunities to talk about interests they have, particular interests on specific Government policies ·and so on. And I must say that the first six or seven hours we dealt with specifics in the Estimates and detailed questions on the Premier's Office and the President of Treasury Board's Office and so on.

A whole bunch of questions which _are still held in abeyance, and I expect the President of Treasury Board now to sometime give me some answers back, hopefully today or tonight. An Hon. Member: Tonight. Mr. Simms: Tonight maybe, okay. Good because there are other questions I want to get onto, but I do not want to pile up too many questions; and he has a whole slew of them there that I would expect to get some answers to. Now in addition to that six or No. 33 (Afternoon) Rl4

seven hours, we have also touched on a lot of other interesting topics. Topics that come under the whole ambit of the Premier • s Office, as Leader of the Government, and we have agreed on both sides that you can talk about just about any issue.

Members will recall, we have talked about education, we have talked about wildlife issues, Sunday hunting, we have talked about fisheries, certainly, we spent one whole evening on the fisheries issue, we have talked about some of the initiatives of the Minister of Finance, or lack of initiatives, we have ·talked about health issues, we have talked about municipal, or issues that come under the purview of the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, and on and on it goes.

I have some other topics I would like to introduce now, in the hope Members opposite will take the opportunity to stand and give us their position, Government's position, or whatever the case might be, their own personal view, in many cases. For example, on the topic of Sunday hunting, you will recall that we received a wide range of viewpoints from Members on both sides. I remember the Member for Bellevue pointing out that his position was squarely with his constituents. We asked what was that, and he said he had done a poll and he had received a 50/50 response, fifty per cent in favour and 50 per cent against.

So, he stood squarely with his constituents, which was a bit humourous, obviously, but it does not show much leadership and, presumably, the Member will one of these days be able to make a decision as to where he stands. LIS May 14, 1990 Vol XLI The Member for St. George's indicated total support for Sunday hunting. The Member for Lewisporte indicated total support for Sunday hunting. I indicated total support for the issue of Sunday hunting.

On the other side of the coin, you have some Members over there, particularly Ministers, which I can understand, I guess, who indicated that they were still thinking about it or they were not prepared to say what they publicly felt. We have the Minister of Environment, who is quoted publicly, saying he will be recommending to Cabinet to allow Sunday hunting. We asked him to take the opportunity to tell us if he was quoted accurately or not and what, indeed, his position was, and I have not had a chance to review Hansard yet, but I wi 11 be looking forward to reading it.

It seems to me he skated all around the issue and did not exactly say directly. But the most illuminating suggestion, Mr. Chairman, you will recall, the most illuminating suggestion on that topic, in addition to all these different viewpoints we had, was the compromise position, the infamous compromise position put forward by none other than the Member who introduced the motion for Wednesday's debate, the Member for LaPoile District.

He had a great solution to the whole question, the whole issue of Sunday hunting, and I am hoping the Minister responsible for wildlife will stand up today in the debate and tell us how he feels about the compromise position suggested by his colleague, the Member for LaPoile, who said - An Han. Member: that? Do you support No. 33 (Afternoon) RlS

Mr. Simms: What? His compromise? No, no! No, the Member for Gander is not quite sure how he is going to deal with Sunday hunting. But, here was the compromise of the Member for LaPoile . I said, 'What is your position on Sunday hunting?', because he had been harassing me the night before to give mine, and I did. When he finally got on his feet, he said, 'Well, I think there is a compromise to this whole Sunday hunting issue. There is a compromise.' 'Oh, yes?

What is that?' He said, 'Well, I think the compromise is that we allow Sunday hunting after 12:00 noon on Sunday, but in the morning there would be no hunting.' Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Simms: If I could just finish. He said, 'Allow Sunday hunting after 12:00 noon, with no hunting before 12:00 noon.' An Hon. Member: Oh, my, oh, my! Mr. Simms: And somebody said, 'Well, the idea is, we would have to tie alarm clocks around the necks of the moose I suppose, and set them for 12:00 noon, so they would know when hunting was underway.' An Hon. Member: That is the Economic Recovery Team. Mr .

Simms: It sounded like it might be a recommendation from the Economic Recovery Commission, to tell you the truth. And I am hopeful that the Minister of Environment and Lands will tell us how he feels about the infamous compromise position put forward by his colleague, the Member for LaPoile. That is quite accurate . An Hon. Member: He did not even L16 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI make The Sunday Express. Mr. Simms: You did not make The Sunday Express this week. Now, Mr. Speaker, there are some other issues I would like to discuss in the Estimates Debate and I hope Members will respond to them.

I was hoping the Minister of Mines and Energy would be back. Does anybody know when he is due back, by the way? An Hon. Member: He is back. Mr. Simms: Oh, he is here. Do you think he might be listening? I have a whole list of questions as he missed most of the debate last week. Can I count on the Whip? I will count on the Whip, the man who should be in Cabinet, the only veteran that was returned in the last election who did not get a Cabinet post and should be in Cabinet. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr.

Simms: But the Whip could pass on these topics to the Minister of Mines, if he would do so I would appreciate it. We would like a report on the oil show in Houston that he just returned from, I understand, where Hibernia was a topic of interest no doubt. We would like to have an update on the whole Hibernia project, when you consider the fact that the original deadline on the Hibernia negotiations, I believe, was somewhere in June, June 18, I think, was the date that sticks in my mind.

And if June 18, or whatever it is, was the date, maybe he can tell us, since that is only three or four weeks away, is everything finalized? Because you would not No. 33 (Afternoon) Rl6

think there would be much left to do if they are going to meet those deadlines? Another update on the negotiations with the Province of Quebec. I would like to know how close they are with the Province of Quebec with respect to the Hydro negotiations with the Province of Quebec. Could he tell us a bit about the gold find in King's Point down in Green Bay area. The gold find in King's Point. Now I know the Minister of Finance is quite capable of answering that question. But I think it is more properly asked the Minister of Mines, he is the one responsible.

But I would like to know what the possibilities are with respect to that gold find in King's Point. We have asked them to give us an overall update on the mineral situation, mining potential in central Newfoundland, which is one of the areas of the Province I think that has the greatest potential for mining. And there are other topics that, of course, the Minister will respond to and address when his time comes. I also want to give notice, by the way, I want to remind those in the public sector with respect to being unions.

The unions in the public sector in particular who may or may not be aware of the notice in the newspaper of the review of the labour legislation, overhaul of Bill 59, as it is commonly referred to. And unless union leaders and union organizations are aware of it they might not be aware that they must give notice of an interest to participate in hearings by the Legislative Review Committee, chaired by the Member for St. John's South. They must give notice of their intent by this Ll7 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI Friday.

And unless that is better publicized and more widely publicized than simply putting an add in the newspaper, I am afraid there is a possibility that some of those unions might not be aware of it. Unless, of course, the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations, who has a fantastic repertoire with the Members - An Hon. Member: Report. Mr. Simms: Report, I am sorry, and a repertoire. She has a fantastic repertoire. But she has a good report with union leaders in this Province. She said she does. Now they do not say she does, but she says she does.

I would assume that she has taken an interest and advised all of them by phone of the importance of them giving notice to the Chairman of the Commit tee by this Friday, otherwise they may not be able to appear before the public hearings. ·so we want to give it as much notice as we possibly can. Ms Cowan: (Inaudible). Mr. Simms: Precisely. And that was the next point I was about to make. Those who are involved with the Employers Labour Relations Council, I think is the group, and anybody else who might have an interest in labour legislation in this Province, because this is a significant piece of legislation.

I am sure there will be a considerable amount of time spent on it by the Committee. I suspect they will have some hearings around the Province which would be the right thing to do. So I am just saying, I hope the Minister will notify all of these groups by phone, because if they do not give notice by Friday, they may not have seen the ad in the paper, and I think that is the only bit of No. 33 (Afternoon) Rl7

advertising or promotion shall we say that the Committee itself would have undertaken. So, Mr. Chairman, I do not know how much time I have left in this volley, but do I have a few more minutes? Mr. Chairman: One minute . Mr. Simms: One minute. Well I would like to raise the question of cars, the Ministers' cars, the elimination of Ministers' cars that the President of Treasury Board referred to on Friday in a Ministerial Statement here in the House . Perhaps the Minister of Finance, in the Treasury Board Presidents absence, would give us an opportunity to respond.

I think the Minister said in his statement that when they did the analysis, the cost annually of operating a car was somewhere in the area of $12,000. I believe those were the figures that he used, in fact, in his statement. I do not have the statement right in front of me. And I presume that was the cost of the vehicles spread over a period of time and also the cost of gasoline and everything else, the $12, 000 figure. I would like for him to confirm that for me.

And I would also like to ask him this: When he made the statement he made reference to the previous Tory Administration's last year in office and what it cost? He used the figure of $300,000. But what I would like to know is what was the cost for the last fiscal year, the first Liberal fiscal year of operating these vehicles? Because my guestimates would be, using the same number of $12,000 approximately for fourteen cars or whatever it was, it would be about L18 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI $168,000 last year.

Therefore the question has to be asked, why are you eliminating the vehicles this year if it is still going to cost you $150,000? It does not seem to me to be a lot of savings for that kind of a move? So perhaps the Minister of Finance could answer that as I am not sure if the President of Treasury Board got the gist of the question. Mr. Chairman: Order, please! Order, please! The bon. Member's time is up. Mr. Simms: Okay, I will just leave it for now, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman: The bon. Minister of Environment and Lands .. Mr. Kelland: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I just want to continue with what I was saying the other evening as I just had a couple of minutes at that time, and it certainly does deal with the questions on Sunday hunting. I, also as mentioned by the Opposition House Leader, I would like to see the transcripts of the evening sessions, which we haven't seen yet, to see some of the questions which were raised by Members that I could probably address. I know some of them right from the top of my head, but I would have to review how many questions were asked in order to address them all. In that minute and a half or two minutes which I had when we last sat, Mr.

Chairman, I just made reference to Sunday hunting in response to what the bon. Member raised as an issue, and I think I clearly indicated at that time it No . 33 (Afternoon) R18

is public knowledge that the issue of Sunday hunting, whether or not the ban should remain in place or be lifted, it is a matter of public knowledge, everybody knows and everybody also knows that the present Administration is a very responsible body that takes all complaints and concerns seriously, and therefore would take some action whether review, assessment, reassessment, re-evaluation of any question, and if a decision is required then of course the Cabinet will make that decision. My personal view with respect to Sunday hunting, Mr. Chairman, is not significant in this case.

Within the confines of the Cabinet room, I would present my arguments for which ever position I take on the subject as an individual Cabinet Minister.

I guess it is also public knowledge that any paper with respect to Sunday hunting would be presented by my Department, therefore by me in Cabinet - when that will be, whether or not there will be a paper remains to be seen, but when the time comes, and as I said the public is fully aware that a decision sometime down the road will have to be made, there will be three very obvious options in that context I would ask Government to consider and those options are: Whether or not to keep the current ban in place and therefore allow no Sunday hunting anywhere in the Province.

The second option would be to lift the ban entirely which would allow Sunday hunting everywhere in the Province by whoever wish to hunt on Sunday, a properly licenced hunter, and the third option would be some modified form of lifting of the ban so that perhaps Sunday hunting may be permitted in more remote areas.- wilderness areas where only hunters would generally and normally be found. Those are L19 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI the three options. I don • t think I have changed my position anyway with respect to that, and I think it is quite obvious and it is a matter of public knowledge.

When that will take place, I can't, unfortunately, give a time frame, but han. Members across the way would be aware of the workings of Cabinet and how these things come about. So for the time being, I suppose, we would let it rest there as far as I am concerned, until such time as all possible input and all sides of the question have been received, and I have received considerable input on both sides of the question.

It seems to me though, to be fair and totally honest about it, the preponderance of opinion that I have recovered appears to be on the side of lifting the ban, if not totally then in some modified form. To give evidence to that, Mr. Chairman, I would like to mention that we do indeed have from Mr. Gordon Rice, a petition bearing something like 30,000 names, and Mr. Rice's involvement with this goes back a few years now, when there were some court cases involving his situation.

Additionally, I have received correspondence from both sides of the question, and I have also appeared on a number of electronic media outlets, and probably I could mention the sort of input that I received on those occasions. On a radio show, we had fourteen callers if my memory serves me correctly who called in to express an opinion. Ten of these callers agreed with the principle of Sunday hunting. They thought the ban, the current ban, should be lifted. Four of the callers, the other four, were against Sunday hunting.

But in each case I posed a question, for my information, back to those four No. 33 (Afternoon) Rl9

callers and I asked them how they would feel if Government sometime down the road made a decision to have a partial ban. In other words the more remote areas allow Sunday hunting, and the more congested and heavily populated areas where other activities were under way to maintain the ban. And three of those four people thought that that may not be a bad idea, they agreed with that.

So my indication there for that show at that time, ten of the fourteen were in favor of lifting the ban, three of the fourteen were willing to see the ban lifted in a modified form, and the remaining person was dead set against Sunday hunting. And I believe the figures are very, very close to a similar program on a television show. Fourteen or fifteen callers, ten or eleven in favor of Sunday hunting, one or two fairly firm against Sunday hunting, and the balance three or four were saying some modified form. In areas where people, other than hunters, are not there then we probably could consider it.

This is what the feeling was. I know the hon . the Member for Grand Falls, who gets the most time in the House by the way, Mr. Chairman, properly on his feet, and by the very nature of his position puts him on his feet more than the average Member of the House, and then fifty percent of his time in his seat he is speaking. So he gets a lot of time in the House, and if he will be patient he will have another ten minutes shortly and I will try to respond to any sensible questions he raises to the best of my ability.

And with respect, he throws little comments out to try to throw other L20 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI Members off stride, Mr. Chairman, and he wonders what about the position or the suggestion by the Member for LaPoile, and what about the suggestion from Port au Port and Bellevue and Lewisporte and all of these different things.

I would like to say there are always a variety of opinions expressed in the House, and that every Member of the House of Assembly, as an MHA, has the opportunity to express his or her views, his or her suggestions, and all suggestions, if a Government is a good Government, all suggestions, no matter how ludicrous they may appear to other Members of the House, will be given some consideration, because every Member of the House of Assembly is put here by the choice of the people he or she represents.

So, I do not think it is becoming of any particular Member to ridicule and down-play and poke fun at the suggestion of another Member of the House of Assembly, because in effect when someone does that and tries to make a joke of, or down-play or ridicule another Member - what that individual is doing at that time is tossing a very serious and substantial insult, not just to the individual Member but to the people who put him or her in the House of Assembly to start off with. So be very careful, I suggest to the Members of the House of Assembly, that fun is fun.

A few jokes and the odd remark are not so bad, but when you pointedly try to ridicule another Member of the House simply because he or she made some sort of a suggestion, which may be a very valid suggestion, how can we as good responsible Members of the House of Assembly down-play the importance or the significance of any suggestion no matter how big No. 33 (Afternoon) R20

or small. Mr. Chairman: Order, please! The hon. Member's time is up. Mr. Kelland: Thank you, Mr . Chairman. Mr. Chairman: The hon. the Opposition House Leader. Mr. Simms: Thank you, Mr . Chairman. Mr. Simms: been up once. I know I have already An Hon. Member: That's okay. Mr. Simms: I thank my colleagues for their warm reception. Before the Minister runs away - I notice he runs out of the House very quickly - he spent ten minutes not answering my question." Again, my question was - Mr. Kelland: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Lands, on a point of order.

Mr. Kelland: Did we not make a ruling in the House just within the last day or so that references to Members in and out of the House and their attendance is improper and unparliamentary? Mr. Chairman: of order. There is no point The hon. Leader. the Opposition House Mr. Simms: You are not allowed to make references to a Member's absence, not going back and forth, that is acceptable. L21 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI Anyway, now that the Minister has come back, he skated around my question quite nicely.

I wanted to know: Is it a fact, as reported by the press, that he spoke to the Newfoundland Wildlife Federation, I believe it was, out in the constituency of my good friend and colleague, the Member for Gander? And did he say to the Newfoundland Federation of Wildlife that he was going to recommend to Cabinet that Cabinet support the concept and idea of Sunday hunting? That is what the Minister of Environment is reported to have said, that he will recommend to his Cabinet colleagues to support Sunday hunting. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr.

Simms: Well, that is what he is reported to have said. · Now, I raised it three times, in the hope that the Minister might get up and say, no, that is not accurate, because if it was accurate, then I would suggest that is a breach of the oath of office a Minister would take. You do not go out around saying what you are going to recommend to your Cabinet colleagues, that is strictly internal, confidential Cabinet deliberations. So, again, the Minister did not answer.

Then I asked him what his own position was on Sunday hunting, and he talked about all the options that were talked about and how some people think this is okay and some people think the other thing is okay, and so on, but he never did say what his position is. Then, of course, I asked him to comment on the infamous Ramsay Accord, which would put forth a compromise position on Sunday hunting, where you would wake the moose up at 12:00 on Sunday and tell him, 'Okay, get out, you are going to No. 33 (Afternoon) R21

be hunted.' But before 12:00, they could all stay home or rest, that sort of thing. I thought it an interesting compromise. But the Minister of Environment obviously does not think much of the Ramsay Accord, because he would not even comment on it. He passed it off by saying, 'Oh, well, people have all kinds of weird and interesting -• I do know if he used the word 'weird', maybe I am being presumptuous, I should not have put that word in there, but people have all kinds of unusual suggestions, and that is one of them, to say the least. Anyway, Mr.

Chairman, it is obvious we are not going to get the Minister of Environment to tell us if he did say publicly he was going to recommend to Cabinet that Sunday hunting be approved. I had hoped he might. My friend, the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations has just strolled back into the House. I am hoping she will take advantage of the Estimates Debates to stand in her place today and answer the question that was asked of her several days ago.

On Wednesday, I believe, my colleague, the Member for Grand Bank, wanted to know how much of the so-called $14 million, which is allocated in her Department, as I understand it, is for the three fish plants to keep them open for another year? The Minister, as I recollect - I do not have a Hansard in front of me - said she would be giving a statement in a day or two. Now, that was Wednesday; a day would have been Thursday, two days would have been Friday.

It is now five days, and I wonder, perhaps if the Minister would like, she could stand in her place during the Debate on the Estimates and give us the precise L22 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI answer. You hardly need a statement. You need ask only your Deputy Minister to get the information for you. How much has been expended from the $14 million that our Government has been bragging we put up? How much have we spent, how much have we given? For example, to a company like FPI, who just recently announced a profit in their first quarter? How much of the $14,000,000 have you given to FPI.

So, I hope the Minister will take advantage of that to tell me. The Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs is not here, but the President of Treasury Board would be very aware of this and very familiar. We just had some new appointments to the Board of the Heritage Foundation of Newfoundland and Labrador. It would have gone through Cabinet, so the Minister, my colleague and friend, the President of Treasury Board, who - is very alert in Cabinet, around the Cabinet table, would be well aware of the appointments to the Heritage Foundation of Newfoundland and Labrador.

And the question I would like answered - it is in today's paper, as a matter of fact. There is one position there. The position is a Judy Foote, Mount Pearl, and my question is a simple one and an obvious one, I guess: Is this the same person who works in the Premier's Office? Surely, it cannot be, but I am just asking, is it? It may have gone unnoticed, because surely that would be a direct conflict of interest, to have somebody in the Premier's office appointed to the Heritage Foundation. The Board of the Heritage Foundation of Newfoundland and Labrador . The Chairman, I think, is Mr.

Shane No. 33 (Afternoon) R22

0' Dea and a Mr. Chalker from St. John's is the Executive Secretary, and so on, on that particular board. There is a person there, Judy Foote, who may have been on the Board in the past, because what they did, I think, is they left so many on for continuity and then added some new ones, but surely if that is the same Judy Foote in the Premier's Office then there is a potential conflict there, I would think.

The Premier's Parliamentary Assistant who takes the Premier everywhere, and looks after him everywhere, every which way but loose, might be able to get that information and pass it on to the House, because I think it would be interesting to know if it is accurate. Mr. Chairman, I think, the Minister of Finance is anxiously jumping in his seat over there. An Hon. Member: He is going to give a good speech. Mr. Simms: He is going to give a good speech, is he? Well, I am afraid he is not going to have much time because we will soon have His Honour coming here. An Hon. Member: him a chance. You do not give Mr.

Simms: The Minister of Finance has had more chances than any Member of this House to speak. We have egged him on and asked him questions left, right and centre. How many times have you seen him glued to his seat? Now, all of a sudden he wants to get up. Well, he can wait. As a matter of fact the Minister I am most interested in hearing from - An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). L23 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI Mr. Simms: No, I am not going to attack the Minister of Finance any more, nor any less. The Minister of Mines and Energy is the Minister we have been waiting to hear from. Where has he been? He will not be up next.

The Minister of Finance insists he is going to be up next, so you had better fight it out between yourselves. Where has the Minister of Mines and Energy been? I have not seen his smiling face, his smiling Tory face for days, and days. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Simms: Tory, The Energy. Tory face. Minister of He is a Mines and An Hon. Member: That is not true. Mr. Simms: Next to your Premier he is one of the biggest Tories over there because he is the most Conservative of all, that I have ever seen.

The Minister of Mines and Energy has been gone for a week, down to Houston, having a good time, no doubt, but also working very hard. I hope that the party whip, the Member for Stephenville who should be Minister of Mines and Energy, by the way, not the present Minister, but the Member for Stephenville should be the Minister, has given him a list of the questions that I would like him to address when he does get to his feet. He has given them all to him because I have asked some pretty interesting questions. Mr.

Chairman, my old friend the Minister of Forestry who is having an ongoing battle competing with the Minister of Finance to see who can get the most press for putting ones foot in ones mouth more frequently than the other. It is back and forth. We should No. 33 (Afternoon) R23

reinstitute that aware we used to give on free for all Friday mornings, for the one that gets the best coverage on major faux pas. My friend the Minister of Forestry has done it now on two occasions. By the way the Minister of Education is very, very upset with him, and now the Minister of Municipal Affairs is upset with him, but I want him to ask when he stands to his feet to speak in the debate, he has announced cutbacks at Wooddale and he has given some pretty misleading excuses for the number of cutbacks and what will happen to those who require unemployment insurance, and so on.

I am sure he has heard my rebuttal to his statements publicly, but he has said, most importantly, there will be less work at Wooddale for employees, and specifically twenty less jobs, in his statement.

In his Budget 2.8.04 under Forestry Nurseries, under the salaries component of Forestry Nurseries, last year his Department spent $1.227 million for salaries and this year he has budgeted $1.496 million in salaries, which is an increase of nearly $300,000, $275,000 to $300,000 in salaries, so I would like him to explain where he has in a salary vote, Forestry and Nurseries, an increase of $300,000 more, how come there is a cutback of twenty positions at the Wooddale Nursery in Exploits, physically it is in Exploits. Sometime when he speaks I am sure he will address that for me.

I asked the Minister of Education, but I did not catch his answer the other day. Perhaps the Minister of Finance - Mr. Chairman: Order, please! The han. Member's time is up. L24 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI Mr. Simms: Oh, I am sorry, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman: The han . the Minister of Finance . Some Han. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Rideout: They are standing like anything over there now. Mr. Simms: It is not hard to get him up at all now. Dr. Kitchen: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The last time I spoke, on Friday, I was conducting a seminar for the Members, largely of the Opposition who had trouble understanding how to properly criticize the Budget. And we got into a lesson on economics, on local economics, and they were not paying any attention, Mr. Chairman. They were not paying attention. An Han. Member: Why? Dr. Kitchen: So I did what you normally do, and I learned this in Western Canada when I was out there, there was a guy who could not get his horse to go, and so he started hitting the horse over the head with a stick.

And the clergyman came along and says, 'Why are you hitting that poor animal?' 'Well, he says, why don't you just make him go?' 'First, he said, Parson, you have to get his attention.' And now, Mr. Chairman, I got their attention . They are paying attention. Even the Leader of the Opposition, who was not in the House at the time, feels competent to comment on my remarks last week. ~r. Simms: We all paid attention. Dr. Kitchen: Now listen to this. No . 33 (Afternoon) R24

Let me say this, listen to this. I want to say now without - AN. HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). Dr. Kitchen: I am! I am ! And always have been a great lover of chicken. In fact, I used to be a chicken farmer. Mr. Simms: (Inaudible). Dr. Kitchen: I used to be a chicken farmer. In fact, I believe we had the first incubator in central Newfoundland, where we used to hatch out the little chicken in an incubator, and unlike the bon. turkeys opposite, we were involved in chicken. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Dr. Kitchen: Well I did say bon. Should I withdraw the 'bon. ' , Mr . Chairman? Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Dr.

Kitchen: No. Mr. Chairman: I suggest that the bon. Minister withdraw both comments, the 'hon.' and 'turkey'. Dr. Kitchen: I will. Mr. Chairman, they are neither honourable nor turkey. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Dr. Kitchen: I certainly have no comments to make against any particular brand of chicken, Mr. Chairman. As a matter of fact, I am beseiged by the other makers of chicken in the Province to see if I will mention their name in the House of Assembly as well. Some Han. Members: Oh, oh! L25 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI Dr. Kitchen: As an old chicken farmer, Mr. Chairman, I am all for it.

But what has happened, Mr. Chairman, is that they missed the whole point of the seminar. The seminar had to do with using local products and package them in such an attractive form that people will want to eat them. I remember mentioning seal, and how just a slight increase in the seal consumption by Newfoundlanders would absorb the number of seals that were caught annually in the Province.

And when I was making reference to Members that I knew, who no longer liked seal, or they did not know how to prepare it, and I was lamenting that our educational systems and our people had lost some of these important skills that were contributing to the economic problems that we have in the Province. And what we have to do, I was saying with respect to the many wonderful local products we have seal, partridge berries and bakeapples and all the other things that we have in this Province - cod tongues, lobsters, and so on, would be to spend a lot of time marketing them so that we can sell them to markets.

And that is what we had to do. An Han. Member: (Inaudible) turrs. Dr. Kitchen: I think there are a few turrs over there too: han. turrs. Mr. Efford: (Inaudible). Dr. Kitchen: Oh, I see. But, Mr. Chairman, having cleared up that point, and I am sure I would not want the people in Kentucky Fried Chicken to think that I was opposed to Kentucky Fried Chicken because I believe I had it that very night. I usually No. 33 (Afternoon) R25

eat it. But I do say this, that I want to now come up with my next seminar, to begin my next seminar, which has to do with the appropriate way to handle loan guarantees. Now we have had loan guarantees in this Province for many years, Mr. Chairman. I would like to read out, and I have tabled this in the House before, the mess the former Government did with loan guarantees and all the payouts. They used to give loan guarantees without paying any attention to who was getting them very often, and very often the people whose loans they guaranteed went up the spout.

I remember tabling, last June, where the Government had to pay out $2.5 million in about six or eight small loan guarantees they gave out. In addition, Mr. Chairman, quite recently I tabled another batch of loan guarantees, totalling over $38 million, which were given out in a very haphazard way, and at that time I did not get an opportunity to discuss them at any great length. For instance, we paid out on behalf of Newfoundland Enviroponics, $10.1 million, a loan guarantee to a company which could not pay up, so the Government had to pay up.

Then, a little bit later, we had to pay out $2. 7 million on behalf of the Universal Group of Companies who could not hack it, could not meet it, and we, the Government, had to pay up; loans were guaranteed and then the Company went broke and we had to pay out. Notre Dame Bay Fisheries, $2.9 million we paid out, and so the story goes. On Bay Verte Mines we paid out $20 million in a loan guarantee. You see, the total L26 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI last year was $39 million because of the irresponsible manner in which the previous Govenment slashed out loan guarantees.

Now, what this present Government has done, and I believe it is a very, very good thing - we, too , ·make guarantees, but we are much more careful . When a company comes to us who feel they need some Government support because the banks will not lend them the money, and they feel that if they had a Government guarantee they could get some working capital, we very carefully look at the proposition, very carefully look at it. If it is in fisheries, the Minister of Fisheries' Department looks at it, the Department of Finance looks at it, and the Department of Development looks at it.

If it is in mining, the Department of Mines and Energy looks at it, along with the Department of Finance. We have put in place a set of strong criteria so that hopefully we will not have to pay out millions and millions of Government funds, taxpayers' dollars, to cover loan guarantees, guaranteed loans which are made on the spur of the moment, often in the past for silly schemes and untried ventures, ventures which are not carefully researched. For example, Mr. Chairman, we do not give loan guarantees for term financing, it has to be for working capital.

If somebody wants to buy equipment and things of that nature, well, that is not under the Loan Guarantee Program. Similarly, our loans are for resource based industries, for manufacturing industries, not for other things. The business must be an established business rather than a new one. There must be a need for the loan guarantee. In order words, if a company has No. 33 (Afternoon) R26

plenty of funds ot" can t"aise the money - An Han. Membet": company? (Inaudible) a new Dt". Kitchen: No, not unless it is an established business, taking ovet" an established business, Ot" something of that natut"e. So thet"e has to be need. In othet" wot"ds, if a gt"oup of people come to the Govet"nment and they t"eally do not need money, then they at"e not going to get any. We at"e not going to take t"isk when a company can take it, Ot" whet"e they t"eally do not need money. Similat"ly, the enterprise has to be viable - it has to be demonstt"ated to be viable.

Thet"e is no use tht"owing money away just fat" the sake of keeping a business opet"ating that has no chance of continuing pt"ofitably. So viability is a ct"itet"ion, and so is management. You look at the management. Have they a good management team in place, Ot", have they not? Some Han. Membet"s: Oh, oh! Dt". Kitchen: Mt". ChaiLman, is this the appt"opt"iate time to move that we - Mt". ChaiLman: No. No. Dt". Kitchen: All Light, we will go a little longet" then.

The othet" thing we do is insist that thet"e be appt"opt"iate secut"ity, eithet" in the fot"m of assets the company has, ot" in the pet"sonal guat"antees of the pt"incipals involved. We insist paid, that payments to made unless that no dividends be no dit"ectot"s fees Ot" t"elated companies be thet"e is Govet"nment L27 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI appt"oval befot"e these loan guat"antees at"e in place. We set up a monitot"ing committee to watch cat"efully the pt"ogt"ess of the company while the loan guat"antee is in place. And Cabinet is kept infot"med at all times as to how things at"e going. What I am saying, Mt".

ChaiLman, is this, that we have put in place a system of handling loan guat"antees that will be pt"udent, that will be useful to the industt"ies which t"equit"e them. We at"e not going to tht"ow away Govet"nment money on silly pt"ojects, as in the past. Mt". ChaiLman, I move that we t"ise and t"epot"t pt"ogt"ess. Mt". Chait"man: It has been moved and seconded that the Committee t"ise and t"epot"t pt"ogt"ess. On motion, that the Committee t"ise, t"epot"t pt"ogt"ess and ask leave to sit again, Mt". Speaket" t"etut"ned to the Chait". Mt". Speaket" (Lush): The han. the Membet" fot" Bellevue. Mt".

Bat"t"et t: Committee of considet"ed the Mt". Speaket", the whole mattet"s to the have them t"efet"t"ed and have dit"ected me to t"epot"t pt"Ogt"ess and ask leave to sit again. On motion, t"epot"t t"eceived and adopted, Committee ot"det"ed to sit again pt"esently, by leave. Mt". Speaket": At this time, on behalf of hon. Membet"s, I would like to welcome to the House of Assembly twenty-one students ft"om Lake Academy, accompanied by theit" teachet", Mt". Det"t"ick Reid, ft"om Fot"tune. Some Hon. Membet"s: Heat", heat"! No. 33 (Aftet"noon) R27

Sergeant-at-Arms: His Excellency General has arrived. Mr . the Speaker, Governor Mr. Speake r: Admit His Excellency The Governor General of Canada. Sergeant-at-Arms: All rise! Ladies and Gentlemen, it is the wish of His Excellency that all be seated. Mr. Speaker: It is today my distinct, unusual and unique pleasure and privilege, on behalf of all bon. Members, to extend a most sincere, warm and cordial welcome to their Excellencies the Governor General of Canada and Mrs. Ramon John Hnatyshyn on this their official visit to our Legislature and to the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

May I also recognize and welcome Mrs. Eleanor Wells and the Governor General • s entourage. To our knowledge, this is the first time in which our Legislature in Session has been so privileged and honoured with a visit by a Governor General of Canada. As proud and loyal Canadians, we congratulate His Excellency on his recent appointment to the most respected and prestigious office of Governor General of Canada. It is the wish and hope of all bon . Members that the visit of their Excellencies to our Province and to our Legislature will be enjoyable and meaningful. I now recognize the Premier.

Premier We ll s: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On behalf of all of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador I extend to Your Excellencies a most cordial and sincere welcome to the Province. Excellences, au nom des citoyens de Terre-Neuve et du Labrador, j e L28 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI vous souhaite notre Province. la bien venue dans While your visit on this occasion will be brief our people are both grateful and honoured because you have chosen to visit our Province so very early in your tenure as Governor General.

In expressing that welcome I am not unmindful that we have the unique distinction of welcoming you to the Province that is, in terms of European settlement at least, both the oldest and the youngest part of Canada at one and the same time. Recognizing, of course, that the history of the parts of Canada, prior to 1867, is also the history of Canada, then this Province, .and this city, in terms of European settlement is the oldest part of Canada. We were also the last of the colonies and territories in North America to become a part of Canada and that makes us the youngest province.

It is also my pleasure to extend a most warm and cordial welcome on behalf of all Members of the Legislature and I am confident that the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition will endorse that welcome. Even our Legislature is unique in Canada in that it is the only Legislature in the country, indeed, I believe it is the only Legislature in the Commonwealth, where the Government sits on the Speaker's left instead of on the Speaker's right. Notwithstanding those things that make us unique in the country you will find our citizens to be the most devoted and loyal of Canadians.

While taking great pride in this Province where we were born, or have chosen to live, and its tremendous heritage, we No. 33 (Afternoon) R28

nevertheless proclaim our greater loyalty to Canada, our nation that is the envy of so much of the rest of the world. Speaking for all of our citizens I want to assure Your Excellency of our continuing loyalty and dedicated effort, in joining with our fellow citizens, to build a nation where all our people will have the benefit of personal well-being, good public services and equal economic opportunity. It is the pursuit of these objectives together with our traditions of democratic freedoms and respect for the rule of law that give Canada the envied place that it has amongst the nations of the world.

In assuring you of our loyalty and dedication I want also, on behalf of all the citizens of this Province, to extend to Your Excellency our heartiest congratulations on your appointment and our sincere best wishes for a most successful and enjoyable tenure as Governor General. You are most sincerely welcome indeed, both of Your Excellencies. Thank you very much. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Rideout: I am very pleased on behalf of the Official Opposition to join with Mr.

Speaker and the hon. the Premier in welcoming Your Excellencies to our Province today, and particularly to our House of Assembly on the occasion of your first official visit to Newfoundland and Labrador. I wish to take this opportunity to congratulate Your Excellency on your appointment. You bring to this position a long and L29 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI successful career in the public life of Canada and in the practice of your profession. Your own background, Sir, and particularly your family roots also illustrate the unique nature of Canadian society.

We are a country which values and, indeed, encourages diversity, both in the individual and in the collective sense. This is why we actively promote within our Constitution the multicultural nature of Canada which Your Excellency's background so richly illustrates. This is one of the factors which makes Canada a very attractive country for Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who enjoy a very unique culture, developed from our own ancestry and from our relationship with the sea. In Newfoundland and Labrador we particularly value our continued relationship with the Commonwealth and with The Queen.

It is for this reason that Your Excellency as representative of The Queen as Head of State of Canada, and provincially in the of flee of the Lieutenant-Governor, has helped to bridge the transition between our constitutional history and our decision to become a province of Canada. We are also mindful of the important constitutional role which the Governor General plays in our system of Government.

As Canada's leading constitutional scholar Peter Hogg says, 'A system of responsible Government cannot work without a formal Head of State which has preserved certain reserved powers.' So your role and that of our Lieutenant-Governor is much greater than its ceremonial and symbolic aspects. No. 33 (Afternoon) R29

As Your Excellency is no doubt aware we have had situations in our constitutional history where these reserved powers have proved to be of considerable importance·. We believe that in these very difficult times facing Canada, that the Governor General's role is a positive symbol of national unity and is of vi tal importance. We are confident that your background and your personal qualities will assist in this most important of your roles so that we continue to be a strong and united country in the months and years ahead.

We are confident that the people of Newfoundland and Labrador will extend to you our usual welcome and hospitality, and we trust that you will enjoy your stay in our Province. Bonjour et bien neuf! Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! His Excellency: Mr. Speaker, the Premier, and the bon. the· Leader of the Opposition, and Members of the House of Assembly, ladies and gentlemen. I thank you for your warm welcome on behalf of the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, Mr. Premier.

Making this my first Provincial visit, I am reminded it is a little more than forty-one years since the people of this Province committed themselves to becoming part of Canada. In doing so they enriched us all and gave a new meaning and majesty to our country's mot to, A Mari Usque Ad Mare, From Sea To Sea. And how proud Newfoundland has made us, how tenaciously determined we are to keep the Canada you helped us become.

Not only is Canada, it Newfoundland part of is part of all L30 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI Canadians, not everyone may have tasted bakeapples or fish and brewis, but the figure of the Rowdyman is part of our national treasure. Gordon Pinsent belongs as much to the people of Kamloops as he does to the people of Grand Falls. That is why his work is seen on television sets across the country. The fame of Memorial University is not confined to this Province or indeed to this country. I understand, for example, that the work being done on giant squid has attracted world attention.

And only a few weeks ago it was my pleasure to induct Doctors Chandra and House into the Order of Canada, in recognition of their work at Memorial in the field of Medicine. Historiquement et geographiquement, Terre --Neuve a toujours servi de trait d'union entre !'Europe et le Canada. A ce titre, votre province constitue un lien important entre le passe de notre pays et son avenir. Comme certaines regions de Terre-Neuve soot plus pres de l'Irlande que du Manitoba, cela temoigne aussi du role de premier plan qu'a joue votre province dans le developpement des telecommunications modernes.

In reflecting on the scope of Newfoundland's history, we remember that Henry VII of England gave John Cabot ten pounds for finding the "new island" nearly 40 years before any other explorer first saw the rest of Canada. This is, indeed, an ancient and proud land. But Newfoundland is more than the sum of the great moments of its history. It is above anything else the people of No. 33 (Afternoon) R30

this Province who are its riches. Speaking personally I can tell you that it is more than twenty years since I first learned the story of NONIA, but I have never forgotten it. How in a depression the Women of Newfoundland's outports knitted clothing they could sell in order to finance visits from nurses their communities so desperately needed. Today the Crafts Movement begun by the Newfoundland Outport Nurses and Industrial Association is an important industry. The goods made in this Province are cherished throughout the world for their beauty and for the skill and integrity with which they are made.

But those of us who know its origins are moved by the generosity in the sense of mutual concern that was the beginning of NONIA and that is a foundation of so much of life in Newfoundland. I can assure you that Gert and I are looking forward to our time here, and to returning to bask in your famed hospitality as often as we can. In the years ahead, we hope to visit as many communities and meet as many Newfoundlanders as possible. Thank you for all the warmth of your reception, to the Leader of the Opposition, the Premier and to Mr. Speaker. The kindness you have already shown to us is very much appreciated.

Thank you very much. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: Order, please! I believe the motion now is, that I do leave the Chair for the House to resolve itself into a Committee on Supply. On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. L31 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI Committee of the Whole Mr. Chairman: Order, please! The hon. the Member for Kilbride. Mr. R. Aylward: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I just want to say a few words again and make a few comments on exactly what the Minister of Finance did say in the debate of Friday, May 11, 1990.

There was some indication today that comments were made ln the heat of debate and I didn't understand that. When I was here, it didn't seem to be any heated debate, the Minister of Finance was conducting another seminar, and in his usual silly way, Mr. Chairman, I just want to tell you exactly what he did say. Mr. Chairman, as the Minister of Finance says, you may be interested in knowing that the title of this seminar is: po-po platters. Silly! What a comment for a Minister of this Crown, Mr. Chairman. He also said part of our problem in this Province is that we have turned our backs on our own resources.

We have, to a large extend been brainw&shed into thinking that Kentucky Fried garbage was better than Newfoundland food. Mr. Chairman, I don't know where he gets his information but Mr. Chairman, Kentucky Fried Chicken the operation, and I am sure we good get a good seminar in the operations of Kentucky Fried Chicken from one Member of this House. The Member for Mount Scio-Bell Island, could give us a good seminar on the jobs that Kentucky Fried Chicken industry creates in this Province. I No. 33 (Afternoon) R31

understand that in the St. John's area alone, and my figures might not be correct, so I would appreciate if the Member for Mount Scio-Bell Island would get up in this discussion - Mr. Chairman: Order, please! I just need to interrupt the han. Member for a few minutes. I think, because of the way the sound travels, there is a request from the Protocol Office that han. Members not hit the desk during the next half an hour while the Governor General is downstairs. We probably could clap instead. The han. the Member for Kilbride. Mr. R. Aylward: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I won't excite anyone so much that they might have to hit the desk. I am not that type, but, I just want to inform han. Members in this House and if I am not correct, the Member for Mount Scio-Bell Island will certainly correct it, but, I understand that the Kentucky Fried Chicken business in the St. John's area alone employs some 150 people, in just the st. John's area alone. Many more throughout the Province but I do not have those figures. This business, Mr.

Speaker, Kentucky Fried Chicken business, is going to be one of the businesses that the Minister of Finance is going to depend on to pay that 1. 5 percent business tax I call it, payroll tax, in the future, and he is insulting him and trying to put him out of business. Mr. Chairman, if he had gotten up in the debate a few minutes ago and done what I think was the proper thing to do, I probably would not have stood in my place to speak right now.

I think that the Minister of Finance L32 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI should have, the first ·time he got to his feet, the very first statements that he should have made was to have apologized to a good business in this Province, the Kentucky Fried Chicken business. He should also have apologized to the chicken producers in this Province who produce top quality chicken meat for the industries, not only Kentucky Fried Chicken, but many other industries.

He should also have apologized, I think, to over two hundred workers involved in Newfoundland Farm Products, the feed companies that operate because there is a chicken industry in this Province. And had he apologized, done what I think was the right thing for him to do, I would be here congratulating him now, because I would have let his comments go, maybe they were in the heat of debate, if he wants to claim that, I know that they were not, but I would have overlooked that. And had he made the apologies that I think are necessary, not only should they be done Mr.

Chairman, I think it is necessary that a Minister of the Crown in this province, who does make a mistake, none of us are infallible, I do not say that we all should be infallible, when we. are a Minister in a Government we should be very careful of what we say, I think we all realize that. The Minister of Finance has shown himself to not give consideration to what he says. He insulted the Premier when he made his statements on Meech Lake, insulted him so much that the Premier had to apologize to Quebec, and apologize to the people of Newfoundland for the rash statement that the Minister of Finance made. Mr.

Chairman, he also made this statement here, on the Kentucky Fried Chicken No. 33 (Afternoon) R32

garbage, which are very strong statements, and not something that a Minister of the Crown, or any Member of this House should say lightly. But he also, and most people overlook it, he also was suggesting that this po po platter, which he was giving us a seminar on, was some kind of foreign food also. Mr. Chairman, I had some of this food at a local restaurant several times, and I noticed that there are pork products in this platter that are produced here in Newfoundland. There are fish products, shrimp certainly, but there are fish products sometimes on this platter which are produced here in Newfoundland.

So the Minister has not only insulted the agricultural industry, he is insulting any food production industry that produces any food in Newfoundland, because he has the same ideas in his mind, the old time, old fashioned ideas, that if it is produced in Newfoundland it is not as good as if it were produced somewhere else, Mr. Chairman. That is a problem that has always been fought by local producers in this Province.

Local producers for quite some time now, have always fought the attitude that if it is produced here in Newfoundland, it is probably not as good as somewhere else, which is a total fallacy, because food products that are produced in Newfoundland, especially fresh foods, such as chicken and dairy products, are a better quality to Newfoundlanders because they are supplied to the marketplace in a fresh state. They are not trucked from other parts of Canada or other parts of the United States, so the quality is usually much better for locally produced L33 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI products.

We all know that fish products in Newfoundland always taste better than they do elsewhere, but we do not always realize that agricultural products that are produced here, including cucumbers that used to be produced here, were a much better quality, Mr. Chairman, than what we are having trucked in. When products are trucked from areas such as California, which supplies a lot of our food here, they are picked before they are ripe, Mr. Chairman, so you cannot get the right taste of the food in the product.

Tomatoes, when they are sent here, they are picked before they are ripe, they are brought to the stores and they are gassed, Mr. Chairman, to turn them red so they will look presentable. But the exact taste · of fresh food and probably the quality of this imported food is not up to standards, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the pickles that were produced here in Newfoundland were in very high demand, actually, in the Ontario and Quebec market.

And the reason that they were in such high demand, and they were getting extra bonus prices for these products, was because they were produced herbicide free and insecticide free, which was a very good marketing ploy. It produced an extra special product, which I understand before the Newfoundland Clover Products in there now, ceased operation in there a few months ago, there was up to five tractor trailer loads of fresh product going out of this Province.

The first time in our history that we were producing a quantity of vegetables to export to another market to bring in new finances and money into this Province, Mr. Chairman. And that No. 33 (Afternoon) R33

product, if the Government was not so blinded by the past publicity, if that facility was set up in some of the other fourteen areas of the Province that were looking for it - and the Minister of Agriculture is the last one in this House who should be making comments on this, because it is his job to produce food in this Province, Mr. Chairman. Yet he stands in his place today and supports the Minister of Finance insulting the farmers of this Province which he should hang his head in shame for doing such a thing, Mr. Chairman. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I would like to make a comment to the Minister of Finance in his - I leave that part for now, Mr. Chairman . I expect that the Minister of Finance will do the right thing eventually and get up. First of all he will apologize to the people who he has insulted, and the next correct thing that he should do, Mr . Chairman, is resign from the Cabinet because - An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. R. Aylward: - because this is his second or third attempt now at embarrassing the Government and certainly embarrassing the Premier.

And if he had any gumption in him at all he would resign from Cabinet rather than have the Premier fire him next fall, Mr. Chairman, which I expect will happen by probably the last of October next year, when we will see some Cabinet changes and some new blood brought into the Cabinet. This Cabinet is a year old now, Mr. Chairman. One year in office into their second year and they are stale already. They have created no jobs, they have not been pro-active on one single L34 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI issue that I know of, Mr. Chairman.

Any announcements they have made have come from planning that was put in place by the former Administration. Most of the cuts that they put in place were recommendations that - many of them were refused by the former information, but they wanted to take these cuts. And early into their mandate they will take things away. It is the same ploy that Governments use, I suppose, world wide democratic Governments.

Early into their mandate they take things away from people and take things away and increase taxes, and then the last year of their mandate or their election year they will give back some of the things they take away and hope that people will be foolish enough to believe that this is something new they ·are getting. Mr. Chairman, I want to inform the Premier - Mr. Chairman: Order, please! The han. Member's time has elapsed. Mr. R. Aylward: By leave, Mr. Chairman. An Han. Member: No leave. Mr. Chairman: The bon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. Dr. Gibbons: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I thank the Member for Grand Falls for the questions today, and I will give him a report on a number of items. The Member is probably most interested in the latter part of his questions when he asked about Mineral potential in Central No . 33 (Afternoon) R34

Newfoundland and the gold find at King's Point, so I am going to talk about that first. In terms of mineral potential in this Province, Central Newfoundland including, for example, the Baie Verte Peninsula, along Notre Dame Bay and down through the Buchans Belt is probably, in terms of base metals and gold, the best part of this Province in terms of mineral potential. And there are a number of very interesting prospects. The King's Point prospect that he referred to, owned by Noranda and Major General is a very interesting gold prospect. At this stage they have not proved enough for a mine.

I believe the tonnage at this time that has been drilled off is about 250,000 tons. The grade of gold at 250,000 tons is about .35 ounces per ton, which is about three times the grade that is presently being mined at Hope Brook. So, at King's Point what we need is more tonnage of that grade, and we certainly could have a possible mine in the future. There is going to be more drilling this year. In Central Newfoundland closer to Grand Falls at Duck ·Pond, Noranda is still working, still doing more drilling, and that project · is still also going through the environmental impact process.

We do not have a decision yet on whether they will be mining that ore. They have about five million tons proven, but there are prospects for more, and this year may be the year when we get a decision. I know a few months ago I was saying that I hoped for a decision and an end to the environmental impact process by mid-1990, by June or July or so. L35 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI I am not sure at this time when the Company will be in a position to make a decision.

A point which has some relevance to this is another new prospect in central Newfoundland, which the Member may have heard of recently, because it was only announced about a month ago by BP Canada, and this is approximately 20 kilometers from Buchans, just south and west of Millertown and Duck Pond. The new Daniel's Pond discovery is similar to Duck Pond, with grades of zinc that go up to almost 19 per cent in some of the drill hole intersections. We have great optimism for this prospect as well, and it may well be the one that will help put Duck Pond over the top in terms of tonnage to supply a mill.

In 1990, we are expecting about 10 thousand meters of drilling this year. There are other things in central Newfoundland as well of great interest in the mineral sector. Just east of Grand Falls, towards Birchy Bay, there is a very interesting antimony prospect being drilled by Noranda. They are continuing the drilling on that. Again no mine, but very good grades and some tonnage being proven.

Another one I want to mention specifically is on the Bay Verte Peninsula, where Corona and Varna are continuing to drill a gold prospect near Ming' s Bight - some very interesting grades, and I would hope that in the next few weeks they will announce some tonnages from that. None of these are immediate mines, but they are good prospects which may become mines in the future, all · in central Newfoundland. I will go now to the oil show in Houston. I know the Member for Grand Falls and some other Members No. 33 (Afternoon) R35

would like to get a report on that. Last week, the Minister of Development and I represented the Province at the oil show. The latest number I heard for attendance was about 27,000 delegates from seventy-five different countries in the world. If you mention a country which has any interest in oil at all, that country was represented at that oil show. We were there with a delegation of about two dozen or so Newfoundland business representatives, businessmen and women, and I believe they had a good show in terms of the contacts they made.

We certainly had a good show in terms of the contacts we made and the meetings we had. A couple of the specific things which happened last week that I really appreciated: number one was a tour of a fabrication facility operated by Brown and Root, which is one of the companies involved in 6ne of the bids on offshore in Newfoundland.

We got a feel from that tour, we got a feel for the type of facility we need to put in place on the Burin Peninsula, at Marys town and Cow Head, in terms of the scale of the operation and the types of things they need to put at Cow Head to be able to do the work we would like to see done there related to Hibernia. That was a very, very interesting tour that the Minister of Development and I went on on Tuesday morning of last week, in Houston. Another tour we did on Wednesday morning was of the Stewart and stevenson Yard in Houston.

We were very, very pleased with that tour to see some of the things that company is making in a modular way, which are like the things which will have to be made to go on to the Hibernia platform. L36 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI So we had an excellent week, we made some excellent contacts. And the businesspeople who were there also, I believe, had an excellent week in Houston. I really appreciated it, but I also appreciated getting back home yesterday. There were a couple of other points the Member for Grand Falls wanted to get some updates on. He mentioned Hydro Quebec, and he mentioned Hibernia.

On Hydro Quebec I would like to say that last week our negotiating team had their most recent meeting, on May 7, and at that meeting they scheduled three more meetings for this Spring. So the process is still moving forward on hydro, in our negotiations with Quebec on Labrador power. And as that process continues, I would hope that by this fall we will be in a position to say whether or not we are going to be able to develop the remaining resources of the Labrador Chruchill River. On Hibernia: There is nothing really new to report on Hibernia right now, but the process is continuing to move forward.

I believe we are still on a June 30 schedule. I have no reason to believe otherwise. But we are not there yet, we are still negotiating on the benefits and other issues. I would hope that within the next few weeks we will have more to report on that progress, and that by June 30 we can sign something. On June 4, 5, and 6, when we have The Offshore Show in Newfoundland, there will be a lot of people visiting the Province from all over the world who are involved in offshore oil, and most of the companies, probably all of the companies which have any interest No. 33 (Afternoon) R36

in development will be here, and maybe we will have a little bit more to say by that time. But, at this time, I do not know for sure. An Hon. Member: Do we get an invitation to that? Dr. Gibbons: Anyone can go to that show. It is at the stadium and, I think, the Raddison. It is open to the public and there will be, I am sure, a number of opportunities for hon. Members to attend. Ms Cowan: Even the Opposition. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Dr. Gibbons: I have nothing further to say at this time, Mr. Chairman. I will answer any other questions as they come up. Mr.

Chairman: The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia West. Mr. Tobin: Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a few comments based on what the Minister had to say about energy in this Province, particularly as it relates to my District, and to Marystown and the Cow Head project. I am delighted the Minister and the Government have finally decided to act on the Cow Head project because, as the Minister knows, both he and the Federal Minister of Energy agreed many, many months ago to delay anything to do with the Cow Head project until after there was a study completed. Some months ago now the Minister - An Hon.

Member: On what? Mr. Tobin: On the Cow Head project. When your Government was elected, the Federal Minister requested a delay with which the Provincial Government concurred. L37 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI I do have the letter in my possession, as the Minister of Energy is very much aware. But I am delighted now that the Minister has indeed agreed with the Federal Government, or they have both agreed I should say, to continue with the Cow Head project and have the engineering study take place. I think that is a very positive step in the right direction.

As we are all aware, there have been many millions of dollars spent on the Cow Head facility already. It is there, and it does need significant expansion in terms of the role it will play in the development of Hibernia. I think, as the Minister of Energy will probably confirm, that the major work that is being looked at for the Cow Head project is the mechanical outfitting, and I would still suspect that is the - Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Chairman: Order, please! I have recognized the bon. Member for Burin - Placentia West, and there is a lot of talk going back and forth across the House. Mr.

Tobin: I would still suspect that is the project the Minister of Energy is pursuing for Cow Head. If he would confirm it when he has the opportunity, it is the mechanical outfitting, or the shafts assembly, as some people refer to it. It is also important, let me say to the Minister of Energy, it is extremely important, if we are to become involved - and the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations should listen to this as well - in a meaningful ·way outfitting in Shipyard, it is in the mechanical Marys town to be going No. 33 (Afternoon) R37

important that we not only get the contract to do it, but also the contract to assemble it on site. One thing is getting a contract to prefab it, but once it is prefabbed, then it has to be brought to the site and be assembled. I would suspect that Mobil Oil would have great problems with giving a contract to someone to do half the job and then letting someone else do the remaining part.

So I would say to the Minister of Energy and the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations, be very cognizant of that fact, that in order for the shipyard to get the contract for the mechanical outfit it is going to be important that they have the right to assemble it on site. I am sure she knows what I am referring to, and I do not want to get into it. Mr. Chairman, important that it is also very the Placentia Bay area play a significant role in the development of the Hibernia project. It is very important that Placentia Bay play the role it was supposed to play from the outset.

Argentia should have a major role to play in the development of the concrete platform, as well. I want to offer my full assistance to the Member for Placentia who, I know, is working very hard to try to obtain that for his District. I think it is very important that Argentia be permitted to play a major role in the development of the Hibernia field. As I understand it, if there are many facilities in place - An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) . Mr.

Tobin: Any area of Placentia Bay, whether it be Argentia or Marystown that is playing a role in that, there will be a L38 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI significant impact on the other part. Whether the east side or the west side is leading, there will be a significant impact for the other part of Placentia Bay. And I believe that must be allowed to happen, because what we have seen lately is not what has taken place. I really say that to the Ministers in all sincerity, that they keep that in their minds. Now I see the Member for Windsor - Buchans waving the Grand Falls Advertiser.

Since the two Ministers from Cent~al Newfoundland are sitting together, Mr. Chairman, probably they are discussing what kind of car the taxpayers· of this Province are going to give them as a gift. Probably that is what they are discussing, what kind of car the taxpayers of this Province are going to give them, Mr. Chairman, what kind of car they will be driving. You know, are they going to go for the Lincoln's? With the taxpayers paying the shot, a~e they going to go for the Lincoln's? Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Tobin: The decision is made by the Government. The decision is made by the Cabinet.

It is not made by anybody on this side, it is not made by any private Members over there, the decision for the taxpayers of this Province to buy you a luxury car is made by the Cabinet. And not only that, not only are they going to have a car, not only are the taxpayers - An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Tobin: Sure they should have a car. Sure they should, there is no problem. The Ministers should have a car, but the car should belong to the Government. On the day they cease to be a Minister, No. 33 (Afternoon) R38

that car should belong to the taxpayers of this Province not the Minister. I believe it is a sham, Mr. Chairman. I believe it is a big scam the President of Treasury Board cooked up to buy himself a nice car. When does he get the $8,000? That is the question I would like answered. When does he get the $8,000, and how long will he have to wait for another $8,000? Do you have the $8,000 yet? An Han. Member: Another $8,000 the 2nd of January (inaudible). Mr. Tobin: No wonder there is a payroll tax in this Province. No wonder they are slapping a tax on the payrolls of this Province.

How else are they going to afford to buy cars for themselves? And not only that, they can pull up to a gas station in their own car - in their own car - and pull out a Government credit card. What else can you do with the Government credit card? That is another question I would like answered. What else can be done with that Government credit card? Can you get maintenance done? Mr. Parsons: (Inaudible). Mr. Tobin: Can they buy tires? Some Han. Members: Yes. Some Han. Members: No. Mr. Tobin: Can they pay for their insurance? Some Han. Members: Yes. Some Han. Members: No. Mr.

Tobin: What can they get on that Government credit card? I tell you that is something that has to be made public, because I L39 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI am suspicious of what that group over there is capable of cooking up. I am extremely suspicious of what that Cabinet is capable of cooking up, Mr. Chairman. And I would not be at all surprised if there is more to that credit card than gas. I realize the President of Treasury Board in his release, even though I was not here, I realize he was very vague on the role of the gas credit card. An Han. Member: He should be. Mr.

Efford: (Inaudible) seventeen years (inaudible). Mr. Tobin: question. Now, that is another An Hon. Member: Can you buy beer with it? Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Tobin: Now we have a confirmation. Let me say to the President of Treasury Board, before he issues any of these credit cards, cancel it. Do not permit them to buy groceries, as he has just suggested they can do. On behalf of this side of the House, on behalf of the people of the Province, Mr. Chairman, I beg the President of Treasury Board to change his mind, that· groceries not be bought with that credit card. Mr.

Power: Will they be buying beer with it. Mr. Tobin: That is wrong. Yes, yes, the Member for Ferry land wonders what else you could buy in a convenience store or some other places. What is happening here is shameful. It is shameful! The taxpayers of this Province buying a car, and if for some reason the Minister decides to get out after No. 33 (Afternoon) R39

what looks like could months with 12,000 bucks pocket towards his car - Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! be six in his Mr. Tobin: A gift from the taxpayers. That is nothing short of corruption. It is a corrupt Government that would - Dr. Kitchen: (Inaudible). Mr. Tobin: Buying a car for yourself? Well, Mr. Chairman, one thing we know for sure, the Minister of Finance won't be going out to buy chicken. He won't be buying chicken on his. An Hon. Member: one. He already has Mr. Tobin: No, he didn't have chicken, he had turkey. He is already after buying one of them.

But for the President of Treasury Board to come into this House - there are some adjectives, Mr. Chairman, the former Member for Bell Island and La Poile, and some other places, would use to describe that. When Mr. Neary was sitting over here, if we were to ever bring in a policy whereby you could put $8,000 in your wallet, compliments of the taxpayers, plus a credit card to look after everything else, I just wonder what he would have said. The other question I have to ask is what about the Member for Exploits? Is he entitled to this package?

Another question: how many cars are going to be assigned to the Premier's Office under this package? How many cars are assigned, disguised and all, the ones in the car pool? Will the Ministers, Mr. Chairman, park their own personal cars when they have to go our of town and go to L40 May 14, 1990 Vol XLI the car pool and pick up a car? Will that happen?

Will the Minister of Social Services, for example, park his Government car, his own car, paid for by the taxpayers while the people on social assistance basically starve to death on the measly amount he gives them, will he park his own car and then drive a Government-owned car? That is the question this Government has to answer. The Minister of Education took the teachers away from sick in the hospitals, yet accept $8,000 and colleagues getting it. part of a decision to school teachers in the for sick children and monies for their cars. what this Government about?

The President of Board, the old slasher slashes everything. children he will see his It was cut the hospitals take the Is that is all Treasury himself, Mr. Chairman: Order, please! The hon. Member's time has elapsed. Mr. Tobin: Dr. Slash. Dr. Slash! He won't let the Minister of Social Services have more money. Mr. Chairman: Order, please! The bon. Member's time has elapsed. Mr. Tobin: By leave? Some Hon. Members: No leave. No leave. Mr. Tobin: I will get back . will get back. Mr. Chairman: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy . Dr. Gibbons: Chairman. Mr. Thank you, Chairman, I the Mr. the No. 33 (Afternoon) R40

Member for Burin - Placentia West raised a couple of questions about Cow Head, and I would like to respond to those briefly. We want to put Cow Head in a position to get the maximum benefits from any offshore development, and the Hibernia project is number 1. The Hibernia project is there for the catalyst which would put Cow Head and the rest of Newfoundland into position to get the maximum benefits from Hibernia, Terra Nova and all subsequent developments.

Recently, as was stated, we did jointly, ourselves and the Federal Minister, the Federal Department of Energy, Mines and Resources, agree to release the engineering money. The engineering studies are now going on to be ready to release the project when Hibernia is signed, but not until Hibernia is signed. Because if we do not get an agreement, of course the project will not be released. So we hope we do have all the engineering work completed within the next couple of months so that we can release the project immediately the Hibernia project itself is released. That is the aim of this Government.

To maximize the benefits for this Province from the offshore, then Cow Head has to be in the position to be able to bid on all appropriate work. And in talking about the appropriate work, what the Member stated is essentially correct, that we are looking at work in the mechanical outfitting of fabrication areas, and that's the type of work that would be done at that facility. We would hope th