THE LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Tuesd ay,· Oct ober 28th, 1958 Opening prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Present ing Petitions Readin g and Recei ving Petitions Present ing Reports by Standin g an d Select Committees Notice of Motion In troduct ion of Bills Orders of the Day MR. E. PREFONTAINE (Ca rill on): Before the Orders of the Day may I direct a quest ion to the Honourable the Act ing Minist er of Municipal Affai rs? May I ask him if he expect s the report from the Greater Winnipe g In vestigating Committee pretty soon . HON. JOHN THOMPSON (Act ing Minist er of Municipal Affa irs): Mr.

Speaker , in reply to the Hon ourable Member I would sa y that we do expect it but I am not able to say just how soon . There has been no indic ation of any defin ite date as yet. I would say that we possibly will have it durin g the month of November. MR. L. STI NSON·(Leaaer of the C.C.F.): Before the Orders of the Day I should like to direct a quest ion to the Leader of the House. Will there be an y more legisl ation tabled for this sess ion? HON. DUFF ROBLIN (P remier): In reply to the Honourable Gentleman, Mr.

Speaker, I would say that we expect to bring in two more bil ls of a fin ancial character, that is for supply, · current and ca pital, but no ot her legisl ation that I am aware of at the moment. MR. SP EAKER: Adjourned Debate an d Bill No. 2. The Honourable the Member for St. John. MR. D. ORLIKOW (St . John's): Mr. Speaker, education is by virtue of the con st itutional setup in Canada, the responsi bility of the Province. This Province has not, in the past , accepted the major responsibi lity of fin ancing the educ ation.

In Manit oba we have, under the policies of the past government, spent less per capi ta on educ ation th an any other province except one in canada. If these policies had not been such a failure we would not have had the Royal Commission Investigation and we would not now be debating this Bil l. Educat ion costs have been risin g rapidly from a per ca pita cost of $10. 76 in 1935 they rose to $44.80 in 1956, an increase of over three hundred per cent. The bulk of this incre�se, ��. Speaker, camefrom the taxpayer at the 1

local government level despite the fact that municipalities financed a greater part of their expenditures by taxes on real prope rty. In accepting the financing of a much larger percen­ tage of the co st of educat ion this Government, in this Bill has moved to widen the base from which the cost of education wi ll be financed. Thi s is a step in the right direction, we in the C.C.F. greet it as such.

In this reorganiz ation of the secondary school system as nropos ed by the Interim Report we are in Manitoba in fact begin­ ning to follow in the foot steps of the other three western provinc es.which long ago adopt ed the larger unit of school administration. Having failed until so recently to face up to the problems, how to make our educational system work, the former government finally appoint ed a commission to investigate.the situation. A common practice on the part of th at governme nt.

The Commis sion 's report is one wh ich has received wid e support in pr inciple in all sections of the community although there are many groups which still have impor tant reservations as to details . In our opini�n this Government, indeed Mr. Speaker, I think any government, even one which had the Honourable Member for Rhineland as a member would have had to move to implement this report. The same way as the forme r government implemented the Bracken Commiss ion Report.

This Bill follows to a large extent the Interim Report of the Roya l Commission - particularly in resp ect to the organiza­ tion of seco ndary education to the large r unit of adminis tration. We in the C.C.F. have always believed that without larger units of administration plus, Mr. Speaker, and I want to emphasize this- -plus the assumption on the part of the Provincial Govern­ ment of a much larger share of the cost of education, a decent education could not be provid ed for the children attendi ng Manitoba schoo ls . Some of us in the C.

C.F. have felt that the larger unit of administration ought to administer all education from kindergarten ri::;ht through to high school. But we accept this propos al as put forth in the Bill as the first .step towards �uch a system. In fact Mr. Speaker, in the light of past racial, religious and historical co nditions this step by step approach is probably necessary. We have some reservations about what may evolve as a result of this change . It may aggravate S'Jme of the divisions wh ich already exist between elementary and secondary schoo ls .

We are pleased th at the Minister has set a timetable and has set a target of early next year for implementing the new system. The C.C .F. agrees that every child in Manitoba whether he lives in the ci ties or in the rural areas is enti tled to a hi·];h school education. We concur completely that the old system could not and did not.achieve this end . vve agree that the Provincial Governme nt must provid e a larger share of the educational costs, money spent by the Province should be distributed on the basis of need. It should be made clear, Mr.

Speaker, to members of this House, the School Districts and the public at large that passage of this· Bill will not solve all the problems in the field of education. The Minister has announced that the Province will pay lOO% of teacher 's salary but I think this should be 2

emphasized and the Minister made it qu ite clear - up to the amount·. set out in the regulation which has not yet been passed, Even if these are at the scale set out in the Inte�im Report , this will be far from lOO% of the salaries which are already being paid in mo st urban areas today. The same is true of the other items which the Minister mentioned - the 75% of main­ tenance co st, the 50% of administration, 50% of supp lies and 40 to 80% of building costs.

I have been in touch with some of the people who are in administrative positio ns in urban areas around Winnipeg , wi th some of the people on School Boards , I have been trying to find out from them what they think they wi ll get under this Bill and they are , they make it very clear, under a good deal of difficult y in making the calculations because the regulations have not yet, and it is understandable why they haven't been tabled , but they have not yet been tabled and so they can only guess.

I would suggest to them and to the public that they be a little bit cautious about spending this money and that any of the idea's about how much the .mill rate for next year will or may be cut , are a good deal premature. So, Mr. Speaker , we in this group accept this Bill- -at least, the pr inci ples of this Bill as a beginning in the task of re-b uilding the educational system of Manitoba. There are a number of que stions whi ch we and I am sure other interested organizations will want to ask and possibly we can do it in Committee .

Some of th ese que stions and I raise them so that possibly the Minister may have the answers when it comes to committee , are as follows: Where do the Junior High Schools which exi st in many of the urban areas , fit in? Becaus e in the Bill we talk only of El ementary and Secondary education. Is the salary

schedule which is suggested in the interim report wh ich takes , as I read it, 22 years to get from the minimum to the maximum, is it realistic? Can you get teachers to accept that kind of a step by step system? Are classrooms authori ze d classrooms or actual classrooms ? This is a que stion which came up freq uently in previous sessions. I mean by ·this , are Shops , Home Econ omics, Commercial classes included in the authori zed class .room? What is an authorize d teacher for grant purpo ses?

In the interim report it suggests one teacher for 30 student s at the elementary level ; one teacher for 23 at the secondary level; is this what will be the authorized teacher or is it something else - the old system of , I think, one for 25 . These are some of the que stions whi ch we will want to have answered, Mr.

Speaker. · I want to emphasize that even after passage and implementa­ tion of this report , this Province , indeed Canada as a whole , will have a long way to go before we can feel th at we are do ing enough in the field of education - that is educatio n in the mod ern compl ex soc iety in which we live. Mr . Speaker, I am no believer in the Russian system of soc iety. I despise and I deplore much of what they have done but in the field of ·education, they have acted . I would like to close by reading a few excerpt s from a pamphlet written by Mr .

James Duncan, the President of Massey­ Harris Ferguson Limited who made a trip to Rus sia several years 3

ago. He says , "t he science training which students receive in their ten years of schoo l enables them to commence their university courses with a better foundation that is generally the case with us . Russia turned out nearly twice as many engineers last year as the United States did .

The implic ations with regard to the Western World are thought provo king if not downright alarming," and the conclusion of the paragraph which I commend to the Minister, "t hos e who have reached the up per ranks in the teaching profession rank high in the Russian hierarchy - not only does their income permit them to live in larger apartments, drive a car and have a summer hom e but they are treated with dignity and respect . They rank with the out­ standing artists, compose rs or ," get this Mr. Minister, "l eaders of indust ry ." We ll, Mr.

Speaker, we have a long way to go before we can reach this pos ition in Canada. I would like to close , Mr. Speaker , by remindiW1: the House of a few words whic h the Honourable Member for St. Matthews said , I think yesterday, wh en he said, "ed uc ation is the foundation stone of our so ciety." If we Canadians, regardless of party, of regio n, wi ll really ·a dop t this as our motto, we may in the lifetime of some of us establish an educational system of which we can all be proud. ��. SPE AKER: Are you ready for the qu estion? ��. 3. E. McLEAN (Minister of Education ): Mr.

Speaker, if no one else wish es to speak , I would like to speak in closing . ��. R. W. BE ND (Ro ckwoo d): If no one else wants to spea k, I would like to move the adjournment of the debate, Mr. Speaker . I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Eth elbert that the debate be adjourned . Mr. Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEA KER : Adjourned debate on the prop osed motion, Bill No. 3, the Honourable Member from Minnedos a. MR . C. L. SHUTTLEW ORTH (Minnedos a) : Mr.

Speaker , the contents of the Bill which we have before us in Bill #3 for to provide for the setting up of an industrial loan corporation here in the Province of Manitoba is in many ways similar to the legislation that we have in Bill #8 for the setting up of a farm credit organiz ation and it seems very natural indeed that when one of these Bills is being brought in that the other shou ld have the same time because after all in the Province of ��nitoba and I think more so as time goes on, agriculture and industry are becoming more reliant on one another and it certainly is impor­ tant to agriculture in Manitoba, particularly to th e future of diversified agriculture that we have strong and steady industrial expansion in this Province .

I think it is interestin�s to note also, Mr. Chairman, that as time goes on, that we are beginning to lose some of the differences that for many years seem ed to have appeared between agriculture and industry. The re has been 4

for many years what has appeared a sharn difference between the farmer and the businessman, between farming and busi ness but in these days , Mr.

Speaker, farming is business and bi;r, business and it seems to me it has to be t reated in much the same way and I think that from the standpo int of both indust�y and agriculture , we would do well for to study the problems of the other segment of our industry and be mor e conversant with them, and so I say it is natural that we should have when we have a farm credit bill coming in, that we should have an industrial credit one C·:'lming in as well and as on the farm credit so on this Bill , there has never be en any disagreement in principle as far as this type of credit is concerned .

The only disagreement that there has been as to what level of government should handle this respons ibility. We have always maintained , I have on many occasions, that whe n it came to farm credit that the federal field were the ories that should handle it and I also maintain that as far as industrial credit is concerned, yes, we need the credit but it could be best done at the Federal level and particularly, Sir , in the last year or so when we have had a Government at Ottawa that went out on the hustings and promised they were going to do those things.

We felt encouraged that they wo uld be done and be done qu ickiy and, of course, as time goes on, our doubts become more and more com­ plete that it will not be done and apparently the people who know them better on the other side of the House , know that there will be no action taken down there so that they have to go along on th eir own , and so we have these Bills before us that were agreed in principle up on. As we have mentioned in the House this afternoon, the matter of interest rate is imnortant.

I know from my own exper­ ience it is certainly important in agriculture and certainly it is impo rtant in industry, and I feel, Sir, that at the federal level, a loaning institution is in a much better nosi.tion for to handle the financin•?; of two types of credit that are necessary both for the farm and industry than We are at the Provincial level .

First , the need is for long term credit, lon� term credit , at a low interest rate and it is only natural , I think, Sir , that at the Federal level , where they have the Resources of the wh ole Dominion of Canada, they are in a better position to do these things and narticularly for to stand the sho cks of a time of recession .

Here, in the Province of Manitoba, we may be affected by a regional recession, a cron failure wh ich could , if it continued for a short time as it did in--or for a matter of a few years, as it did before in the 13 01s , could deal a death blow to such institutions as we set up provincially . While at the Federal leve l the sho ck can be spread over the whole nation and the whole prog;ram be carried on with a -;rea:t deal more stability . As I said before, Mr. Speaker, the Bill does do for industry what the f�rm cr�d it one doe s for a�riculture.

I think, Sir , that in the drafting of this Bill here , the Acting Minist er of Industry and Commerce , he has been a little mor e nosh in what he has out in the Bill to what the Minister of Agriculture has, being modest like the rest of 1111e farmers, he has been qu ite modest in his annroach. In this Bill for the industry, they have certainly 5

given very broad lending powers to the board . In the Bill for Agriculture , I think, Sir, as was so ably oo inted out this afternoon that it made the Bill far too restricted and certainly we 'll have more to say about that as time goes on .

I think possibly the provis ions in the Bill for industry are po ssibly far too broad and will have to be restricted before the Bill meets with our anoroval but the Minister of Agriculture has been qu ite mod est - he just calls the head man in his corooration a manager , wh ile in the other Bill the Minister of Industry and Commerce, he has out the word general manager on his throughout the Bill .

I don 't know whether he exp ects to pay him an extra $1,000.00 or so for that high ho nour he is goin� to bestow on him or not , but in general we are agreed with the principles of the Bill and with some amendments, I think possib ly it can be of ben efit to the peop le of the Province of Manitoba . ·· Certainly, as I said before we ne ed divers ified industry here in Manitoba and if industry can move out into the rural areas of Manitoba as it has been do ing in th e last few years to a large degree, it means a great deal for agriculture.

It means local market for the products th at we grow out in the rural area and that can mean a great deal to us . During the last two or three years , Mr. Sneaker, I have had occasion to be fairly close to the develoo ment or the effort to develop rural industry out in my own constituency of Minnedosa and during the last few months, we have had a situation that develoo ed in the town of Minnedosa that I think points up the need for a firm oolic y in this regard. We had for qu ite a number of years- -- for three or four ye:1 rs , Mr.

Soeaker, been negotiating with a distillery company for to establish in the town of Minnedosa. Finally , last snring, plans were fi nalize d for the establishment of that distillery in the town of Minnedosa and we thoug;ht that work would be comme nced early in July . In fact, Sir , ,the town of Minnedosa had soent a good deal of money in encoura1?;ing the industry to come . The local Chamber of Commerce, the Industrial section, had certainly spent a great de� l of time ..•• the local men in town . Then, late in June, rumours began to circulate that this distillery was going to locate in the City of St .

Boniface and shortly after that on what appears to be a decision of the Minister of Industry and Commerce , we heard that the distillery was going to be definitely located in the City of St. Bo niface . HON . GURNEY EVAN S (A cting Minister of Industry and Commerce ) Mr . Speaker, I feel that if the gentleman will permit , I woul d like to rise to a point of order . I don 't think that my remarks at that time could be interpreted as a dec ision that that distillery should go anywhere . MR.

SHUTTLEW ORTH: Well, I am glad to hear Speaker, but the only information that I have is Winnipeg Free Press of Saturday, July 5th, 19 .58. Government dictates th e site •••.••• that, Mr .· from the It says MR. EVAN S: Mr . Speaker, if I may , I would merely assure the gentleman that I made no such decision . 6

MR. SHUTTLEWORTH: Mr. Speaker, I just ""ant to read the information that I had from the press reoort . The only infor­ mation that I had ••• a goo d reliable source . Mr . Ev ans , ,after some comment here between my Honourable Colleague from St. Boniface , the mayor of St . Boniface and one or two others , the Paper qu otes , Mr. Evans would not say what stand his Department would take on the matter but he indicated that it had be·en one of the major planks of the Cons ervative Government to create a balanced dev elopment of industry across the Province .

Well , that 's very commendable and aoparen tly the balance swun� this time to St . Boniface . Mr . Evans •.• then he went on to find , Mr. Evans said he was certain we can find a proper economic spot for the dist illery in Manitoba . He would not state wh ether this meant that the Company would be allowed to build in St . Boniface if it was refused a si te in Minnedosa. The Minister said. he would study both sides of the que stion before reaching a de cision. Well , I took from that, Mr. Chairman, that he had finally reached a decision that the distillery would be established in St. Boniface .

Now, I listened yesterday wi th a great deal of interest, Mr . Sneaker, to the stateme nt that the Minister gave in connection with this industrial loan fund and he certainly, I think, tried to convey that certainly the 'government was not goin� to have any control or attempt in any way to direct this new loaning co roora ­ tion and certainly that is important, very impor tant, Sir, that that should not happen.

But a government or any le1 �islation that a government passes is as good as the government itself and certainly I was pleased to hear yesterday from the Minister that that is the stand that will be taken by the Government as far as these industries are concerned. I must say, Mr. Speaker, that I feel that here in the large urban area of the city of Winnipeg, that poss ibly it is necessary for to have to be a little more co nscious of the needs of rural Manitoba .

Certainly, Sir, I would not go as far as the illus­ trious Mayor of Portage did, when he called WinniPeg "Hog Town, " bec�us e I am sure that it is not so at all but here the City of Winnipeg , a large city in this Province, they're in a wo nderful posi tion for to get the first crack at industries such as this and I am not critical of them for doing that but on the other hand the welfare of the City of Winnipeg, does deo end , Sir , on the welfare of the whole Provinc e of Manitoba and I know that the negotiations that went on as far as this distillery we re concerned , it seemed to me that there was a determined effort to see to it that this distillery stayed in the Greater Winnipeg area and I think that wh ile it wasn't a large industry at all, it didn 't mean pos sibly too much to the City of Winnipeg, an industry of this kind out in the rural areas in towns such as Minnedosa, Neepawa, Hamiota and some of the other towns can mean a �reat deal, not only to the town itself but to th e surrounding areas and so , Sir , we certainly hone while I personally feel that it wouid have been much better to have said to our friends at Ottawa, look , this is a job that you folks have already accented the reaponsibility, you have promised that you would do this , you should get on with the job but now when we are agreed on the or inciple , the government of the day has decided that this is the 7

way it should be done, . if we can .make this Bill conform and be the type of legislation that we desire in Manitoba, we 'll go alon<?.: with it. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the qu estion? MR . R. Paulley (R adisso n) : Mr. Sneaker, I move and it has been seco nded by the Honourable Member for Fisher that the · debate be adjourned . Mr. Speaker presented the motio n and after a v::>ice vote declared the motion carried . MR. SPEAKER: Bill #8 and amendments thereto. The Honour- able Member for Morris . MR. H. P. SHEWMAN (Morris ) : Mr.

Sneaker. one is surprised, ef3oecially we .older members that have been in this Hous e for a good many years to see such amendment as this brought before the House. We have on this side of the House and some of the members to my riq;ht, on the other side of the House, have been working for the good and the interest of the farmers of Manitoba at large and to think that the member of the previous government would introduce a Resolution of this kind for the sake of one percent ·w hich mi'c;ht kill the Bill and ruin a good many of the farmers of Manitoba, is very hard for- me to understand.

I will come to that later, Mr. Speaker. We , on this side of the Hous e and of years gone by have advocated means and ways, brought Reso lutions into this Hous e which--in denendent? Yes, and I will stay an independent until the time I could join the party that is goi ng to do some good for the farmers of Manitoba. Mr . Sneaker, I didn 't go off half-c ocked on this jump of mine and we, on this side of the House, have brought Re solution after Resolution into this House to help the farmers of Manitoba . And through the nine years that I have sat in this house the .

Honourable Members which are now the oppos ition, and it is true the oooos ition through this fault, that they didn 't take an active interest in the farmers of Manitoba, every resolution, I wouldn 't say every reso lution, I withdraw that statement • •• but a lot of the resolutions that we introduced in to this House, on this. side of the Hous e, was watered down and amended till it wasn 't worth the pap� that they were written on ., And they clapped their hands and cheered.

No wonder the people- on the 16th of June put them where they are, and I will predict that there won 't be a corporal 's guard after the next election in Manitoba of the Liberal party. There has been a lot of indifference, I used to us e the word calloused indifference and I meant it in thos e days . I won't use that tone, Mr. Sneaker, but there has been a great indifference shown as far as the farmers of Manitoba are concerned by the Liberal party. . Now, the farmers ' organizations in Manitoba in the years gone by have been asking for such a loan as this .

They need immediate help and through the loan systems that exist in Canada .and Manitoba today, there isn 't this immediate helo available $

for them, and our party is doing just what the farmers of Manitoba wanted some party to do , the Liberal party was asleep at the switch again and that is why they are where they are today. Now, I don 't think that in my hist ory, in my term in the House here, that the Liberal party in days gone by have given any serious thought to the plight of the farmers in Manitoba. If they had, they wouldn 't be where they are today. Now , they have laug;hed about the one percent and I mention the fact that they were willing to defeat the government for the principal of one uercent. Mr. Speaker, there is qu ite a story there.

There are the Provin ces of New orunswick, Newfoundland, Ontario and Quebec and others that have had a scheme similar to this and it is satisfactory. They can peruse the records for themselves and they will find out that it ha:9 worked qu ite satisfactory- to the benefit of the farmers of those provinces. Now these loan set- ups in the other provinces have been estab­ lished and have been working for years.

They know what they 're doin g but we in Manitoba today have made the promise that we are going to helP the farmers and we 're not qu ite sure, or reasonably sure, of what it will cost to the extent that we have to go out and borrow mo ney and 6% is a figure that we arrived at to be reasonably sure that it is not going to cost the ratepayers of Manitoba any mo ney. Now ••• nod your head ••• the Leader of the Ouuosition nods his head, nine years ago, eight years ago, seven years ago this was mentioned in this House when he could have borrow ed mo ney when he was sitting over here .

At that time the Provincial Treasurer could have borrowed mo ney to do the same thing that we are trying to do •• and yet they say it is no good. We 'll wait and let the people of Manitoba deci de that. There has been no definite policy as far as I am concerned from the opposition group as far as th e farm po licy is concerned. We could carry on for a good deal of time, Mr. Speaker, and enumerat e these resolutions I have mentioned before as brought before this House but they have been watered down and amended until they did not mean anything. The late Mr.

Ro ss brought in a resolution to this Ho use asking this government to take some immediate action to help the young farmers of Manitoba and to that resolution, to my knowledge , there was no immediate action taken on the part of the govern­ ment of th'ose days. Then we have the resolution that was before the Hous e for loa.ns on farm-s tored grain. Mr. Speaker, what haPPened to th at? Anot;her dismal failure on the part of the government of thos e days. No action. Now that is where the indifference come s as far as the previous government was concerned at helping the farmers of Manitoba.

Crop insurance - what happened to crop insurance? Yes , yes, yes, what happened to crop insurance? .What happened to crop insurance? The honourable members on the other side of the House waited till the eve of election and then they said we 'll tackle crop insurance on a provincial basis. That 's what they said and the resolutions that were introduced into this Hous e were watered down and walked over. 9

There was a recommendation in the Committee of 19 56 that we have immediate action and that action be taken to Ottawa at once. It was mentioned in this House, I think by the Leader of the C.C.F. party ,just the other day here. What hapoened to that resolution? The honourable gentlemen over at the other side of the House waited until after the $th day of June before thev presented that resolution to us. That's the indifference that they have been showing the farmers of Manitoba. · Then when we introduced a resolution into the House asking for cash advances on grain--what h"lDPened to that?

I 'm goi11.'2; to reserve the right to let some of the honou rable members answer some of these questions. \rmat ha opened to that? Nothin� at all. �fuat happened to the resolution that we had in this House asking for more aggress to help the farmers of Manitoba? What happened? Let them answer that. When I came into the House, there was twenty-seven and before the previous election last June, how many was there? •.. Thirty-five, I think. That's the effort of the · Liberal party that was defeated at the polls last June. That 1 s their record, Mr. Speaker. The people of M3.nitoba kno'"' that.

We don't have to expound an idea such as that. They know it and I •• there's a lot of good members across there, and there was some good members. But I feel sorry for them. And I don't know of any House in M3.nitoba that have as well appearing group of members as-they have. And we 1 re going to miss their appearance only. We have asked the previous government to go to Ottawa for the sake of the farmers of M3.nitoba and ask for just what we're asking for today ••. •••.•• I fail to see where there was any action by that previous government.

Now we have asked to do something on our own in a very small way, and that is just what this Bill is doing. They have this Bill, as I mentioned, in other provinces and was mentioned this afternoon, I bear correction of this, and was mentioned this afternoon - what are we going to do for security? The great country south of us, they have a bill where it's backed by the government that a farmer that can't get a loan fro m a bank or a mortgage company, if his character is such, the govern­ ment of the United States will back it.

We're looking out to help the young fellow get started and the man that needs just a little push to get at the top of the hill. That's all that this Bill is asking for. And there has been a great deal of a difference all along the line as far as the previous government is concerned to come out with a concrete farm policy for the farmers of Manitoba. And, Mr. Speaker, I thank you. 1-'lR. SPEAKER: Honourable Member for Dufferin. MR. W. C. McDONALD (Dufferin): Mr. Speaker, we are here this evening discussing the principle of this Bill.

What we have just listened to from the honourable member from Morris has very little to do with the discussion that we have in hand in connec­ tion with the principl� of the Bill. MR. 3HE\iv1v1AN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege, I mentioned the point where the principle of the Bill was the one percent that th ey're willins to defeat this Bill on. 10

.MR. •. Hc DONALD: Mr. Speaker, as I have st udied this Bill, I can see that it is taken very clo se ly from the Junior Farmers' Establishment Act 1952 as passed in the province of Ont ario. That Bill that was passed there very c·los ely correspon ds to the Bill that we have bef ore us. I do not know what the inte rest that is ch arged under that Act to the youn�s farmers of On tario is, it does not seem to be set out in the act. It must be set out by regtila'tion..

But I do notic e one particular differen ce, whic h to me is very important, partic ularly after the statement that was given by the Minist er yest erday. The Minist er in a st atement explaining this, the princ ipal of the bill yest erday, indic ated th3.t the in teres t was goin·� to be 6% and as is set out in the Bill that the co st of administ ration of this body that is be in g set up to administer the Ac t, is to be taken out of the profit that is made, that is from the interest that is paid.

Now in the Junior Farmers' Est ablishme nt Act of 1952, the co st of admini s­ tration of the On tario Act was to be paid out of the con soli dated fund. It was sub seq uen tly amended in 1956 an d the expenses of the administ rative body was to be passed by the Legisl ature. And I think, Mr. Speaker, that this is a very important princ ipl e in as much as the Minist er yest erday a�vised us the cost of the administration would be paid out of the interest that was recei ved. Now, I do feel that this is important.

I don't think that there .is any great diffe rence in this House but what, the Bill should be passed . It is simply a matter of, in the past , of which group should be handling this Legislat ion, the government of Cam.da or the province of Manitoba, and I think the honourable gentleman who has just taken his seat will recognize and he sat on that spe ci al sel ect committee for Agriculture in 1957 - he recogn izes that this W.ril..S recog nized in that spe ci al sel ect co mmittee and he was a member of it.

As I understand those rec ommend3.tions passed unanimously in the committee, an d so it is not a mat ter that we hqve been stalling. MR. SHE��N: Mr. Speaker, they were passed una nimously.but they were to be forv.rarded to Ottawa immediately. MR. McDO NALD: And so it is not just a matter that we have been st alling in this an d I simply st and up in my place thl s. even­ ing to bring before the House this very important differe nc e to me in princi ple of what an extra 1% or poss ibly a dec imal of 1% in in teres t will mean .

In On tario, apparently they, and the honourable members on 'the' other sid e of the House for the last two or three years have been tellin g us of the wonderful things that have been done in On tario to help the young farmers, and I presume, I pres ume that that province has seen fit to charge them a rate of in teres t that is in keeping and commensurate with what they are trying to do, an d they, down there, are paying the administ rative co sts out of the co nsolid ated fund and it is passed by the legisl ature.

Here we are adding interest and, as the Hinist er said yest erday, in the hope that these farmers would first of all go to the Can adian Farm Loan Board for the money. 11

MR. SPEAKER: . .. ... Honourable Member for Brokenhead. MR. E. R •. SCHREYER (Br okenhead): Mr. Speaker, I would like to co mment briefly on the motion as moved by the Honourable Mem­ :be r for Ste. Rose .. In so doing, I would also like to explain the stand of my co lleagues in this important matter. Being a represen tative of a rural co nst ituenc y, I list en ed to the words of the Honourable Member of Ste. Rose with a great deal of interest. What I have to say, I say not with any malic e or ill feeling as suc h, the Honourable gentleman will of co urse, realize that.

And I would like to say that his motion to decre ase the interest rate from 6% to 5% per an num seems, of co urse, at first glance to be a very wise and p�udent move, to look after the interests of the farming population of this Province. I say at first glance. At sec ond glance, it se emed to be merel y an attempt on the part of the Honourable gentlemen to my right to dis play their politic al and procedural wisdom. Mr.

Speaker, in dealing with this motion, I do hope that there will be at least a small amount of latitude allowed bec ause I think you will agree that you ca nnot always discu ss important matters within too limited a framework. A motion of the kind proposed by the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose does first of all have a hampering effect on the work of this legisl ature. I would- .n't care to say so, it is merely presumed. The Honourable gentleman don't want that . If the motion passes this time, it co uld prevent some further -much needed legislat ion from going on the Statute Book.

I am surpris ed that my Honourable friends to the extreme right should wish to quibble over a 1% interest, a rate of 1%, when after being in office for ten or is it thirty-five years,. not only failed to take a.step in the right directio n, but were even afraid to twitch in the right direction. Mr. Speaker, we are opposing this motion to amend the Bill for two reaso ns; First of all, we would like to see it go to Committee.

We would like to see it go to Committee bec ause we. feel that there, at least we hope, that there we ca n rec eive the considered opinions of farm organ ization spokesmen and other in­ terested parties. If this motion passes, of co urse, that is all imposs ible. Secondl y, we are opposin g this motion bec ause of the pos si­ bil ity, remote as it is, because of the possibility that .a Liberal government ensuing would not only fail to give farm credit legisl ation, it would not even co nsider it. , Mr.

Speaker, my co lleagues reali ze that this legislat ion is full of imperfec tions, at least, it co ntains imperfe ctio ns of & minor nature but it is something that we must rec ogni ze as being an attempt, a noble attempt perhaps, to do something. I think we should be fair, I hope the Honourable Members to my extreme right will be fair enough to admit that farm credit is more a fede ral matter.

The fact that this Provinc ial Government is implement ing farm credit legislation is, I would like to point out, a con fes­ sion of fai� ure on the part of the federal government, becau se if the federal government were doing its job, then farm revenue in­ coming would be suff icie nt to sat isfy creditors and the exist ing 12

I credit facilities. Nevertheless, we have this Bill before us. We should try to do something with it . For that reason, Hr . SJBaker, I would like to say, on behalf of my group, that we will oppos e the mo tion of the Honourabl e lvlember for Ste. Ro se. 1-IR..SHUTTLEWORTH:Ivlr . Speaker, it was not my intention to take any

part in the debate on this particular moti on, but when the Honour­ able Nernber from Jviorris berated us for not having sent the recommendations of the special select committee to Ottawa follow­ ing that report, I think that now is as good a time as any for us to deal with that very thing . They have said that the reason we didn't send it and they heralded this all over the Province of Manitoba, the reason that we didn 't send them was because we didn 't want to embarrass the Government of the day. Well, Nr. Speaker, what nonsense! · What nonsense!

Because we spent a great deal of time in the committee studying those things . We drafted the resolutions, they were directed at the fe deral government and for many years, we have been on record asking for those things . And, we had made it quit e plain to the government of that day what was needed . And, I can assure you Sir, that we are going to continue to make it plain to the government today the things that are needed, even if our friends across the way feel that there is no need now, that every­ thing is fine down East.

We were fearle ss as far as telling Ottawa what was needed in Western Canada, and we will continue to do that - Pardon? Fearless. - fearless is the word . !viR. ROBLIN : Fearless, I though you said foo lish . !viR. SHUTTLE WORTH : No, it 's you folks that are looking fool ­ ish when it come s to the present Government at Ot;.tawa. It's time you were beginning to prod them along and see that something was done . But something was done in that regard as far as credit wa s co ncerned. !viR. RIDLEY : On the 31st of lvlarch, something was do ne . MR. SHUTTLEWORTH: I have a letter here •••• MR.

ROBLIN: He hasn 't heard about it yet .. IviR. SHUTTLE vJORTH : A letter that was addressed to the Honour­ able Donald Fleming, Minister of Finance, in connectio n with farm cred·it in lvlanitoba, and that letter point ed out that we had passed recommendatio ns at our special select committee whereby V>.'e recommended that the Canadian Farm Loan Board should be expanded, that supervis ion should be given and the Provinc e of Iv1anitoba was prepared to underwrite 50% of the lo ss. And, I want to read the letter that Mr.

Fleming wrote back to the then Provincial Treasurer of the Province of Manitoba, and I am prepared to table the letter. He wrote back as follows: "I have now had an oppo rtunity to study the pro pos als advanced in your letter of June 26th . The following is a condensed histo ry of the above legislation in so far as max imum loan limits to individual farmers are concerned. " 13

·And then he set s out in detail the number of amendments that have been made to the Act when the capital amounts available were raised from time to time. And then he goes on, "You will note that ·the latest amendment to the Act has been effect ive for just one year. It has the effect of increasing the individual loan limit. The res ulting increa sed lending by the Canadian ·Farm Loans Board·is now becoming apparent. I think you will agree that the 1956 amendment should be given a fair trial.

If these new provisions", and this is the Minister of Finan ce for Canada speaking, the chap that was out on the husting saying they were going to revise cred it - "If these new provisions in conju nction with other farm cre dit available prove inadequate, " --_we've been telling him for years it was inadequate, and he was out on the hustings saying it was inadequate - - "to meet the credit need s of farmers, the government will be glad to give con sideration to any reasonable plan for meeting.the sit uation". They've been giving con sideration - we've told them again.

Just a little over a year ago I was in Ottawa with all the Minis­ ters , Provincia l lvlinist ers of Agricult ure from across Canada, and we told the Minist er once again it wasn't adequate. But nothing is done and our friend s across the way apparently have found out there is going to be nothing done, so they are at it themselves. MR. RIDLEY: Mr. Speaker, I had no intent ions of taking any­ thing in this debate, but the Opposit ion are so inco nsist ent. I've lis tened to this - some of them get up and say they have no use for this Bill at all, it's of no help to the Provinc e of Manitoba all. MR.

MOLGAT: I never said that we had no use for that Bill at l:JR. .. RI DLEY: •••• that it should be referred to Ottawa that they should handle it all. Now along comes, and it's appended that if it was for 5% that they would be only too glad to accept it. Then they figure the Bill is alright if the interest is 5% , but it was no good if it isn't 6% •• ��. MOLGAT: Mr Speaker, on a point of order, that is n't what I sa id. I sa id that there were many things to change in this Bill. Vfuen we're through with it, it will be a good Bill, we hope. MR. RID DLEY: - Fine.

But it looks so incons istent to me to see't he different arguments on it. Then, they mention "down East", well, of course, last February and lvlarch we heard "down East" too and along come the end of March and we never heard no more about "down East". So, I hope they get settled on this and decise one way or another. Iv'...R. PREFONTAINE: Mr. Speaker, I am another one that had not expect ed to speak on this Bill, but I rese nt the implications that it is quibbling to discuss this matter of 1 % . I'm a farmer, Mr.

Speaker, and I think that 1% on $25, 000 .00 is a lot of money, especially with the cost price squeeze that we are in. 14

MR. SHUTTLEvvORTH: It 's a lot of mone y on 500. lvlR. PREFONTAINE: But if the int er•3st rate is lef t at 6%, I 'm afraid that we will have more risky loans, that the good risks will go to the Canadian Farm Loans and get th.eir money but those who won't be able to get it there, will come to our board and possi bly se cure it and we will have the more risky loan s. That i� not going to be too good. We have an experienc e in this P!'Ovinc e ofwhat has happened with farm loans. The Leader of the Conse rvative party, the Premier, made many sp eeches during the elec tion campaign with resp ect to farm credit.

He was reported in both news papers , len gthy reports of his sp eeches with res pect to farm loans. I reca ll reading some of these reports where he was eulogizing the syst em that they had in the Province of Quebec, the Credit Agric ole de la Provinc e de Quebec. Very nic e, . the interes t loan there, the int erest is 2% being subsi dized to very little extent by the Province of Quebec. He did not mention at that time to his audienc es that he would ch arge 6% when we es tablished these farm credits. He didn't men tion that, I didn't see it reported in the press. lvlaybe he did.

I should not have sa id that he did not, but it wasn't reported in the press that he mentioned that when he brought in the Bill it would c arry, the loans would ca rry an interest of 6%. I think it is an important and se rious matter. I res ent the implic ation that quibb ling with something that is unimportant, of no co nseq uenc e, it is important. And, I believe that the people of Manitoba, t-he farmers of Mani­ tobe think that 1% is quite important. MR. WILLIS: 1�. Speaker, I would like to get to the heart of this Bill, if I may to say at onGe the purpose of the amendment of the member for Ste.

Rose is to kil l the Bill. lv1R. ROBLIN: Hear ! Hear ! MR. MOLGAT: lvlr. Speaker, on a point of order, I st ated •• •.• lvlR. ROBLIN: There is no point of order. vfuat's your point of order? State it. MR. lvlOLGAT: I st ated •••• I stat ed MR. ROBLIN: What's your point of order1 Let him make his spe ech. lvlR. MOLGAT: Would the Honourable the First Minis ter kin dly co ntrol his temper? MR. ROBLIN: There is no point of order. MR. MOLGAT: Temper! Temper! Temper! Please! A MENBER: ll-1ake you sp eech! lvlR.

MOLGAT: I stated sp eci fic ally before moving this motion that I had no int ention whatever of killing this Bill; that I 15

was mov ing the motion on the understanding that this Bill would be passed at this Session of the legislature . �m. ROBLIN: How can it be? MR. NOLGAT : Change it. MR. CANPB ELL : On a point of or der my Honourable frie nd who leades the house , knows how it can be . He 's not so stupid with regard to the rules that he doesn 't know that 1 MR. ROBLIN : Your motives are very plain to see very plain. But you, like your friends oppo site, are afraid to face the peop le, that 's the differenc e between you and me . MR.

CANPBELL: Let my Honourable friend consider it a vote of Want of Confidence and we will be glad to face it. MR. SPEAKER : Order ! MR. ROBLIN: You 've got want of confidence motions before you now and I dare you to vote for them. MR •. CANPBELL : We 'll be glad to vote for it. MR. SPE AKER : Order 1 ��. ROBL IN: I dare you! lvffi. SPEAKER : Order 1 HR. CAMPBELL : We will . MR. ROBLIN: We 'll take the challenge . MR • . CAIYlPBELL: 0. K. MR. ROBLIN : You 've got the chance. MR. SPEAKER : Order 1 MR. ROBL IN: Put up or shut up! 'A MEMBER : Take it easy boys! Take it easy boys! MR. SPEAKER : Order! Order!

A MEMBER : You ' re grown. up now ! MR. SPEAKER : Order! Order! The Honourable, the Minister of Agriculture . ��. WILLIS : Mr. Speaker, if I might have the floor for a moment, I should like to prove, I think to the satisfaction of 16

of the members here, at leas t, that this will kill the Bill. It 1 s very simple. V\lhat does it say, That Bill No. 8 be not now read the sec ond time. It's as simple as that . It kills the Bill . MR. CAMPB ELL: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, would my Honourable frien d give the authorities that supp ort that con tention? .MR. WILLIS: Mr. Speaker, if it is n1t read now, it is kill ed, of course. It's defeated • .MR. CAMPBELL: •••• on a point of order, Mr. Speaker, this is a point of order. If my Honourable friend will co nsult the authorities -- even our own -- even our own.

He doesn't need to go any further than our o wn rule book • . He will find that it is dist inct ly stat ed there that all that means is that it isn't now read -- it gives the Government the opportunity to amend the Bill and re- introduce it. It says "n ow"; all my Honourable friend ne ed to do� or you Mr. Speaker, is read our own rule book . 17

MR . SPEAKER : floor . Honourable Minister of Agriculture has the MR . WILLIS: Read the rules. Read the Act, it's in the book . ••••••••••• you read it once too often. Resuming, Mr. Speaker, from where I was before, it is definitely my op inion that this will kill the Bill, because it says so. Bill No . 8, now read a second time . Is that clear? The Honourable Member for Ste. Ro se has just sa id that when you get through with the Bi ll, it will be a go od BilL If his motion passes there will be no Bill . That111 be the end of that. I don't want to have to read it the third time but I1ve read it twice .

The Honourable Member for Ste. Ro se has said, that as far as credit is concerned, the credit extended by the banks is use­ less . He has said the mortgage companies are inadequ ate. He ha s said that the Canadian Farm Loan Board is not satisfactory . He has said it 1 s not satisfactory because of the valuation sys­ tem wh ich is different ••• the Bill before you . He has said it1s not satisfactory because the type of security is not wide enough, although it's wide in this Bill . So he prop os es to kill the Bi ll because of those things . What is the excuse for killing the Bill - the rate of interest.

And all those who have spoken · have said the rate of interest, and I do not know but having been here a long time, whether they understand and have read the Bill, but the Member for Brokenhead, who has been·here but a short time, and who was born since I came here, understood the Bill. Now what does the Rill say? And some of you smiling gentle­ men over there, please listen. "Sect ion 8 : The Di rectors may, by regulation made by by­ laws decrease or increase the rate of interest payable on loans ." It 1 s as simple as that. In five mi nutes they could do it . They can change the rate of interest.

The rate of interest is fixed at 6% because we are on an experimental basis. The Pro­ vincial Treasurer tells us that at the moment we are borrow ing money at about 5% . So, we desired to have a slight margin so that we can operate on a business- like ba sis. We well recognize that the Party oppos ite was thrown out of power in the past by the way they op erated the Mani toba Farm Loan . That went into bankruptcy.

That is an example wh ich as Conservatives, we do not wish to see again, and so, to start with, we fixed the rate at 6% and we say at any time, by barely a by-law , it can be changed to five, to four, to three or to any, any amount, as simply as that • ••• Ent irely correct, entirely correct • ••• And you would wreck the Bill because in one place it says 6% although it says we can change the interest rate at will. That 's why the Amendment is strictly a pho ney. That is why the Ame ndment is fraudulent, because in effect it says it's 6%,

whereas as a matter of fact·i t1s variable . It can be changed. If I must exp lain again to the former Prov incial Treasurer, the simple facts are, that th is is an experiment, that we will get it down to the lowest poss ible level where we don 't lose too much money - simply as that. We are anxious for the farmers to have a low rate of interest. V"Je recognize that they haven 't had 18

it in the past. And we recognize to, that as far as this Govern­ ment is concerned, the Oppos ition, as long as they were in, could never be pos sible. What is the pol icy of this Govern ment in general? I keep calling them the Go vernment, I apolo giz e, :tvlr. Speaker, because they were there so long we address them as the Government •. God will ing they won 't be there for that length of time again . And wh ile they had a· long record1 there, I would sug­ gest that ours will probably exceed the irs. What ha s been the attit ude of the Oppos ition when they were the Gov ernment?

What has been their attitude in the last few days? When we came to the que stion of Old Age Pensions they said 11 No 11 , that is a mun icipal respons ibility. When we come to the que stion of agricultural credit, they say that is a federal res­ pons ibility, always escaping respons ibility and they did for a long time, but this year the voters taught them. It has been suggested that we should have been in consultation with Ottawa . We were in consultation, and I suggest to you, with the best loan men in Canada. All chief men of the Vet erans ' Land Act consulted on two oc casions .

The chief men of the Canadian Farm Loan Board were consulted on two oc casions also . And with their ass istance we framed this Bill . Now the :Member for Brokenhead has quite correctly said that there are imperfections in this Bill . I for one, who sponsored this Bill, desire now. my self, to make some amendments in regard to it, but, Mr . Speaker, if the mot ion wh ich has been moved by the Ivlember for .:Xe. lbse is passed there will be no amendments, arid there will be no Bill . Therefore, if . that's what they want, I am sure that they can get it. Some have said the interest rate is too high .

The answer is that it is variable . We will give the farmers the lowest poss ible rate under the circumstances . So me have said that we should have a higher va luation as far as the loan is concerned and the security . That it should be higher than 65% of the security . I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that we got the best advic e that is ava ilable in Canada, and that advice was, do not exceed 65% of. the value . If we can do so we will be glad to do so. They have also said, this is no good, because 35 % will re­ ma in.

In many cases, the young farmer will be able to get the 35% from his father, and his father will take the second mortgage which will ma ke lOO%, and he will have his money . And that 's v1hat is included in the planning itself. So, Mr . Speaker, in regard to the motion wh ich is before us, I again suggest that that mot ion will kill the Bill . I add in parenthesis, it is a Government Bill . It will prevent the farmers of Manitoba rece iving credit, when that credit is available.

And I suggest to the once great Liberal Party, that the farmers of this Prov ince will know how to deal with those who attempt to kill this Bill . MR . CAMPBELL : ( Leader of the Oppos ition) : lv1r. :::Peaker, I rise on a po int of ord er, because I think it is �nportant that when my honour able friend, who has spoken with so much spirit uses the expr ess ion 11at tempt ing to kill the Bill" that we should be clear about our rules, and I simply point out the poi nt of 19

order , Mr . Speaker, so that you may have an opportun ity of check­ ing the reference. In our own Rule Book , it is true that the rules themselves are very sketchily given here , because we go on the practices and customs of the House to qu ite an extent, and then where no rule is app licable we make the Ottawa Rules ap ply . But at the back of our own Rule .Book, Mr . Speaker, we have the information that 's given there in a readable form, non-te chnical form, taken from the other authorities such as, Beauchesne, Boro neau & May , and others, and on page 68 , Mr .

Speaker , this appears with regard to second reading. "Whe n the Order of the Day is read for the second read ing of the Bill , the Speake r will put the qu estion as to whether it is the pleasure of the Hou se that the Bi ll be now read a second time • The que stion may be debated 1a nd certainly they can' . And if the mot ion is negat ive technically, it doe s not destroy the Bill , but merely postpo nes the second reading.

In practise the negativing of this que stion usually has the effect of kill ing the Bill , the que stion having been that the Bill is now read a second time and it is open for the Member in-c harge of the Bill to move for second reading on a subsequent day." If however it is des ired to get rid of the Bill al together, there are two amendments by wh ich this can be effected , either one of wh ich may be put . And the first one Mr . Speaker , as you will recognize, is one we have used here consistently .

That the th ing we have done here is either to move the first one of these that 's mentioned in this Rule Book or, wh ich is called the "si x­ month ho ist" or the other one of a straight vot ing against the Bill . Certainly this does not kill the Bill. I submit to you , Mr . Speaker, that it do es not kill the Bill , I simp ly want to po int that out in answer to what the Honourable Member has said . MR . ROBL IN : On a poi nt of Order , Mr . Speaker, I find it rather odd that the honou rable gentlemen place such an inter- . pretation on it.

It says here that if it is desired to get rid of the Bill altogether, that he go on and make his amendments , and that 's certainly what they did, as they made amendments. I would like to suggest though, that the emphasis should be placed on the word "pos tpone". Doe s that not represent the whole philoso phy of my honourable friends in a nu tshell . They 've post poned this issue for nine years and they are not go ing to pos tpone it any more tonight. MR .

SPEAKER : I would like to say to the Honourable the First Minister, and the Honourable the Leader of the Oppos ition , I think that we should deal with this que stion when we meet it, and not anticipate what is go ing to ha ppen. I think in a practi­ cal way that the Bill is killed and the Honourable Minister of Agriculture or other members of the Execu tive Council are the only Members that can introduce money Bills into the House, and only they could introduce it again. Now technically that might not be qu ite correct, but in a practical way that 1 s the way it works. 20

Are you ready for the quest ion? MR. s. ROBERTS: (L aVerendrye ) Mr . Speake r, I would lik e to move, se conded by the Hono urable Member for Emerson, that the debate be adjourned. Mr. Speaker pr�sented the motion and following a voice vote, declared it carr ied. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable - Ad journed debate on Bill No. 12. The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie . MR. C.E . GREENLAY (Portage la Pra irie ): Mr. Speaker, I lis tened with a great deal of pl easure and interest, Mr.

Speaker, to the remarks of the Honourable the Mini ster of Labour, when he introduced this Bill and when he gave his explanat ion at se cond reading . And, while I think a lot of thes e things co uld have been done without the introduction of this Leg islation, r think that probably the leg islat ion se ts out clearly a proced ure whic h may be followed in order to carry out some of the projects which might be helpful. in alleviating the unemployment during the winter months. I should li ke to go on and say, Mr.

Speaker, that he co vered quite a fiew, quite a number of things, wh ich had been done by the department in ant ic ipation, and in gett ing ready for works and other projects that would cut down the amount of unemployment. He referred to the act ion of the .Telep hone Commiss ion, Power Co mmissio n and other Government bodies, and I would like to say to him, of co urse , and I think he sugges ted that the other day, or admitted, that thes e organiz ations had carried our programs which would build up the amount of wint er work which could be done in previous years.

So that it is not anything particularly new , but lw ish to congratulate him on working very hard at the job and gett ing thes e organ izations to bu ild up this wint er work and poss ibly increas e it. As the years go on, we find new methods and new ways of doing some of the things in winter time, which we traditionally thought could only be carr ied on in s umm er. And this is a proces s of evolution which works towards the programs which may carry on and keep the bulk of the people and workmen employed during the whole of the year.

It is a very commendable program and works toward alleviating the suffe ring of certain individuals when they cannot get employ­ ment during the winter months • . I not ice, however, that there are some of the things which he ment ioned , which have pretty good big round sound ing figures , but I was wonde ring when he was quoting them what percentage of those figures might be alloc ated towards man-hours . For ins tance, the three mill ion dollars of br idge work. And I wonder just how much of that three million dollars would be paid out ·for labour.

I think the idea of the Provinc ial-Mun ic ipal Committee to work with the Mun ic ipalit ies to bu ild up projects whic h will be available to be carried out during the winter is a good one, and I think it should be cont inued. I think it will be very helpful to the Muni c ipalities in carrying out s.ome of the projects which they ant ic ipate and will cut down the cost to some extent . 21

I wouldn 't want the id ea to get abroad, and I am sure the Honourable Minister of Labour would not either, that when the percentage of 50% being paid by the Federal Gove rnment is men­ tioned, I know that he made it qu ite clear the other day that that was SO% of the payrolls . I think that is quite proper and I don 't think that the rederal Government should get into the picture of paying a part, or a great part, of the material wh ich is used but I do think that it is a good idea to pay on the pay­ rolls.

And I wouldn 't th ink it would be a good idea to have the thoughts formed that the Federal Government are go ing to pay: SO% of the who le pr oj ect. I think that the thing is that we want to try to build up the amount of labour wh ich is employed, and to that end it is a proper approach.

Now coming particularly to the Bill itself , I have go.ne over it very c�r efully an d there is one particular aspect of the Bill, one of the principles, wh ich strikes me very forcibly and when I read through it the first time I thought back to last year 1 and remembered the dress ing-do wn wh ich we on that side of the House got and the sermon that we had read to us . And, by the way, it was qu ite a little sermon too, Mr .

Speaker, with regard to the matter of putting into the Bill such phrases as , thos e things could be regulated by Order- in -Cou ncil, could be regulated by the Minister, the Minister can make regulations, the Minister can approp r iate money, and so on . All through this Bill it con­ tinues, Mr . Speaker, and I would like to read a few of them if I may : The Minister ••• the Min iste r, Mr . Sp eaker, on beh alf of the Government of Manitoba may make and execute agreements. The Minister, with the Go vernment of Canada, with the Municipalities, jointly with the Government of Canada and the Municipalities. Mr .

Speake r, is the Minister given that author ity, that power by hiinself? I think he shouldn 1 t have it. I think at leas·t it should be when authorized by an Order- in- Counc il. I th ink it's quite prope r that the Minister should be the proper person to sign these agreements . But, �ir. Speaker, they should be authorize d by someone else . They should be authori zed by at least a Lieuten­ ant-Gover nor- in-Co uncil. We were admonished in this discourse last year, Mr . Speaker, that such th ings shouldn 't be allowed at all, they should be controlled by the Go vernment in power, not the Minister. Mr .

Speake r, we go on, we go on then to certain other things . The :tvlinister, by written order , may establ ish and appo int suitable persons as members of the committee. We go on dow n for the pur­ po se of carrying out the prov isions of this Act accord ing to their intent, the Minister may make such regulations and orders, :tvlr. Speaker. I think this is carried - this is covering a lot of ter­ ritory. The Prov incial Treasurer may give a guarantee descri bed in sub- sect ion (

l) by a certificate in such form setting out the extent or the amount of the guarantee as he may deem appropr iate, Mr . Sp eaker . We have the one before that in wh ich the Lieutenant­ Governor- in- Council may guarantee the payment of the who le, or part of an indebtedness of the Municipality i!lcurred in respect to the project. Mr . Speake r, tho se are some of the things wh ich I certainly 22

take ob jection to in the Bill and I th ink they should be corrected. I thin� they can be corrected. But they ihould be �or rected so at least in place of the 1-Un ister, it should be 1 when approved by the ·L ieutenant-G overnor-i n- Counc il. Then, Mr . Sp eaker, I come along to another princ iple of the Bill. That is the one - that is the pr inciple here, Mr . -S peaker, where th�e Municipal and Public Ut ility Board is by-p assed . ·I t sounds very simp le , it sound very nice and a very good thing to do but I'd like to read this particular sub-sec tion so that the Honourable Members , Mr.

Speaker , will lnow what I am referring to. "Notwit hstanding any other A et . of the Legisl ature , the Municipality may pass by-l aws for author iz ing and making and execute'' - and , and, little inconsistency here) little mis print I believe - "p ass by-law s for authoriz ing; ma king and execution of agreements. (

b) Make and execute agreements. (

c) pass .by-l aws for any of the purpos es mentioned in subsection (1 )" and this is the part that I particularly refer to , Mr . Speaker , "wi thout the author ization or approval of the Munic ipal and Publ ic Util ity Board" . Then it goe s on to say that "the valid ity and legality of any such by-law shall not be que stioned in any act ion , suit or proceedings , in any court for lack of that author izat ion or ap� proval ." Mr . Speaker, .I'm not so concerned about the latte r part.of that, but I do think that we 've had the expe rience over the years , Mr.

Speaker, of having the Mun icipal and Publ ic Ut ility Board set up as a "w atch dog" to gu id-e and direct Municipalitie s when they begin to seem to be coming to the place where they are getting in too deep in debt. And in my op inion, Mr . Speaker, they should still sit there to give approval to thos e agreements and to those proj ects . Mr. Speaker, I think that. in conjunction with the next sect ion, wh ich is another pr inciple of the Bill , where the vote of .the rate-p ayers may be by-p assed . Mr . _ Speaker, I bel ieve that the

section with re gard to the by- passing of the rate-p ayers in this particular instance is okay. I have no objection to it, l:;>ut surely , Mr. Speaker , surely we do n't want to throw all the safe­ guards out the window, because here we have first, when the Lo cal Council passes by _a unanimous vote a resolution req ues ting that ·t he . vote of the rate-p ayers be by-p assed , then th e Minister, and I think again it should be the - by Order- in-Co unc il - may give app roval to it.

I would think that that is qu ite alright but it seems to me that when you do that and couple with it the fact that it is not to 'be referred to the Municipal and Public Util ity Boa rd, we 're beginning to get on pretty shaky ground , and it se ems to me that those are some of the things wh ich should be corrected . And then we would go on ov er, .tv1r. Speaker, to another sect ion where,_ there is another principle being overloo ked. It is tied in with the sections that I have particularly referred to .

In sub­ sect-ion ( 5) it says "Deb enture debt , under debentures issued by a Municipality, that is a party to an agreement to raise mo hey to carry out the agreement, shall not be included in comput ing the amount of the debenture debt of that Municipality, for the pur­ pos es of subsection (1) of 528 of The Municipal Act" . Now under • • • • • 528 of The Munic ipal Act it prov ides, I believe , that in 23

no case doe s the debenture debt of all Municipal Corporations other than a rural l'-1unicipality, sh all not exceed 25% of the tax­ able assessment, but with regard to a rural mun icipality it shall not exceed, I believe the figure is 20%. The percentages are not particularly important at the present moment for the purpose of my discuss ion, but I bel ieve those are the proper percentages. And, Mr .

Speaker, I contend that it doe sn 't matter very mu ch whether a Municipality gets too deep in debt because of wo rk wh ich is for unemplo yment purpos es, or whether it is for some othe r particular utility to benefit that particular municipality. I think the safeguard should be there, and I think that the referenc e should be made to the 1Yiunicipal and Public Ut ility Board . I am quite agreeable that the vote of the rate-paye rs could be by-p assed under the conditions set out in the Pet, I think that principle is okay, but I do think that the oth er safe­ guard should be there. Mr .

Speaker, I wou ld suggest th is, that if there is any danger, or any pos sibility, of this total amount of debenture debt of a Municipal Corporation getting too big, getting beyond the percentages set out in The Municipal Act, I, think that we might write in here a

section wh ich would give some­ body, somebody, now I am not at the present moment prepared to suggest who that might be, it might be the Municipal and Publ ic Util ity Boa rd, it might be the Lieutenant- Governor, it might be the Cabinet themselves, Lieutenant-Go vernor- in- Council might waive, might be given author ity to waive the limit set out in that particular

section of The Municipal Act. In particular in­ stances, and I think it should be the duty of whoever is going to do that to carefully look into the affairs of that municipality and see if it is putting them dangerously into debt or whether it is not . It seems to me, Mr . Sp eaker, that these are some of the principles wh ich are incorporated into the Bill wh ich I would ob­ ject to . I think they should be corrected so that the very fine record of retiring debt and liv ing up to the debt responsibilities of the various mun icipalities wh ich has been established in the · Prov ince, may be ma intained.

I say that I think that the Municipal and Publ ic Util itit:'}s Board would serve a useful purpos e in check­ ing on these agreements and on these proj ects. I th ink that the ••• I think they should be there in order to safeguard the interests of the rate-pay ers, particularly when they are being by- passed, if they are by-pa ssed, in the way that is set out in the Act.

And it seems tb me that they could be corrected and there could be pro­ visi9n made as I said to lift that limit by someone with the pro­ per author ity delegated in this Act, to lift that limit in par­ ticular instances where the circumstances would appear to justify. Mr . Sp eaker, those are the things wh ich, some of the thi:(l.gs which I think about this particular Bill . I think that. it is all to the good . I think it is very ti mely and will be very helpful to Municipal people and to the labour ing force of Manitoba .

But I do think that in rushing in to. pass this ki nd of legisla tion, we shouldn't let those safeguards be thrown out the window. They should be kept there in order to look after the interests of the rate-p ayers and the cred it of the Munici palities of the Prov ince of i'-'lanitoba. 24

MR . D. SWAILES (A ssinibo ia) : Mr. Speaker, I_ am very pleased indeed to note that at long last something is go ing to be done along these particular lines , to assure a mo re stable rate of em� ployrnent throug hout Canada , to assure a greater volume of pur­ chasing power of the public , wh ich will have some effect in stabaliz ing the economy of th is country . This is long overdue and for th is reason, I am pleased to see this action be ing taken, although not compl etely satisfied with the Bill as it is. For qu ite a number of years , Mr .

Speaker, I have introduc ed resolutions into this House , urg ing the Go vernment to take some action with respect to winter unemployment . The situation deteriorated early in the 195 0 's. The Go vernment of th e day was becoming concerned , but, in 19 52 , the Korean \'Jar came along, and that saved the situation, to some extent , and prepared the way for the boom that followed . But since then, each year, the situation has got wo rse. The number of unemployed in the February and March of 1958 was four times as great as the number of unem­ ployed in 19 56 .

And I am go ing by the figures of the Unemploy­ ment Insurance Co mmis sion , because I think the figures of the Commiss ion represent ing, as they do, the people who are actually drawing unemployment in surance, are more accurate than the esti­ mates of the De partment of Labour - - estimates wh ich are based only on a few que st ions asked of peop le in various parts of the country . Now we have submitted this resolut ion year after year.

The Governments of ths other pr6v inces , particularly the Prairie Provinces, have taken a part - they have played a part - they have taken action to try to stimulate winter employment . But as far as the Go vernment of Manitoba was concerned , they did less than any of the other Pra irie Prov inces . As a matter of fact, they simply turned over, in what was then their comfortable bed , and went to sleep again.

Now then, it's rather strange that when we get to 19 58 , and we 're stressing winter employment , as we are do ing in thi s Bill , we are finding that it isn't as effective as it might have been two years ago . This action , on the part of th e Prov inc ial Govern­ ment , on th� part of the F ederal Go vernment, is now a bit late, and it is now a little too little. Because you cannot separate winter employment from the general employment situatio n through­ out the country .

Now, in those years where we had opt imum em­ ployment in the suro�e r months , when we had full employment in the sunmier months, then the improvements in employment in the winter season would be th e creation of new employment.

But when we have unemploy ment in the summer months as we 've had this year, and the latest figures that we had for the Prairie Reg ion , show that the percentage of the labour force unemployed in the Pra irie Region was almo st twice as high in 195$ as it was in 19 57· vfuen we find this relatively great volume of employment in the swm ner mo nths , then there is a po ssibility that work in the winter months is merely transferring employment from the summe r to the winter months and is not creating any new employment, and is not creating any new consumer purchasing pow er. And these are not my own wo rds .

These are the word s of the Chairman o.f the National Empl oyment Comm ittee , Judge Lindall . He says , "I t's safe to say now that over 50% of winter unemploy ment is caused by th e 25

general employment situation, wh ich, in turn, fluctuates with changes in the national economy.

" Seasonal unempl oyment cannot be sep arated from general unemployment, and statistic s that were placed before the Nat ional Conference on Unemplo yment, wh ich took place early in the summer , reveal that the mere transference of jobs from summe r to winter is not the answer, and after all the wo rk that has been done by these winter employment committees over the past years , the harsh fact rema ins that the difference between the max imum employment in the summertime and the minimum employment in the wintertime ha s widened the gap between the two -- has widened Qver the years rather �han ha s now.

However, this winter employment campaign should be carried on with the greatest vigour . But the steps that have been taken are all to the good . They will stimulate employment this winter as they stimulated employment last winter. So that we are, in general, giv ing ap­ proval to sen d ing this Bill to the committee for further study, and, in the hope that those who are interested will come before tpe _committee and present their views on the nature of the Bill . there are one or two things that I que st ion.

I doubt, for �tlf.!j!!t�p.c.e, whether Public Works, Publ ic Works such as tho se that _Ci,:,e -suggested, could be selective enough to give employment only t,q those who can no longer draw Unempl oyment Insurance, or that i\t could be selective enough to employ those who wou ld be go ing on to Pub� ic Relief. The employment must employ many other people other than tho se who are without Unemployment Insurance, or tho se who may be go ing on t·o Re;L_ief .

And we would like to em­ phasize this ; that the work wh ich is to be done ; the employment which is to be created, should be soc ially useful employm ent ; that the wo rks should increase the cap ital value of our commun ity. We don't want to have a rep itition of the 19 30 's where people were just put to wo rk digging holes and filling them up again or put to work cutting wood with bucksaws just for the -s ake of seeing them expend ing some of their ph ys ical ene rgy. That 's not the kind of wo rk we want now.

And I· think, too, that it would be wis e, perhaps des irable, in the Bi ll, to state so'me of the spec ific principles under wh ich the funds would be allotted to the mun icipalities that will undertake these works . I gather that there will be different kinds of agreements -- different perhaps even different prop ortions of funds made available to the mun icipalities that may be undertaking this winter wo rk. And I disagree, to some extent, Mr .

Speaker, with the former speake r, with respect to the Publ ic Utility Bo ard, because it might be desirable to push ahead with some of these projects without sub­ mitting the matter to the Publ ic Util·;Lty Board, and I also agree with the principle, but under some circumstances, where the Municipal Council is in agreement, that these works be undertaken without first submitting them to a vote of the rate-paye rs. But again I want to come back to the po int that, actually, it's a much wider problem that we are facing at the present time than that of me rely provid ing extra wo rk in the winter time .

We are face to face now with this wider problem of how we can, and by we I me

an act ion on the Federal Government level, on the Provi ncial level, on the Munic ipal leve l, how can we prov ide for full employment throughout the who le of the year in every part of 26

Canada? Because that is the ma jor problem at the present time . With our powers of product ivity increased , as they ha ve increased , then we mu st be increasing the powers of consumption, and we mu st take int o �o nsideration all the aspects of the problem that come into this que stion of having a community with .full employment , the fullest degree of employment throughout the whole of the year.

And I'm pleased too , for another reason, because this who le action, initiated , to some extent, by the Federal Government , now be ing undertaken by the Prov incial Governments , in conjunction with the municipalities , to use th e resources of the entire country in order to see that employment is ma intained; that pu rchasing pow er is maintained; and that by these means , the national income be redistributed to a certain extent, contribut ing to the general stab ility of the economy of this country .

And we are pleased to see th is go to the Comm ittee , where we hope that it will be given a mo re intensive study and that we 'll have an oppo rtunity of listening to those , on the outside, who will be affected by this piece of legislation . And again I want to say that we are very pleased to see this action taken at this time . It's long overdue. It probably isn't sufficient, a little bit too late, and not qu ite enough , but still , it1s a very small step in the right direction. MR . SPEAKER : Are you ready for the que stion? MR .

TRAPP : Sir, seconded by the Honourable Member from Dufferin, that we adjourn this debate. MR . SPE AKER : Moved by the Honourable Member for Elmwoo d, seconded by the Honourable Member for ••• A MEf,lBER : Duffer in. Mr . Speaker read the mo tion , and after a vo ice vote declared it carried. MR . PAULLEY : Mr . Sp eaker, if there isn't any mistake , I believe that you stated that the adjournment was taken by the Honourable Member for Elmwood . I believe it's Lac du Bonnet. MR . SPEAKER : Adjourn debate on the mot ion for an address to His Honour the Lieutenant-Go vernor and the amendments thereto.

The Honourable Member for Inkster._ 1•1R . GRAY : Mr . Speake r •••• I think you 1 d better reserve your applause for tomorrow. I have a very bad cold and I yield to an yone else 's wishes to speak. I'm not forego ing my address in reply to the Speech from the Throne , but I cannot speak tonight . I'm sorry. MR . ROBLIN : We 're qu ite agreeable with Mr. Speaker -th at perhaps this order should stand but I wonder if the House would permit anyone else who care s to speak on the debate to proceed . 27

MR. STINSON : Yes, Mr. Sp eaker, there is another member · of our group who desires to sp eak. MR. ROBLIN : That's fine. The re's just one po int here about the -- that is -- the nature of the adjournment. As you know the number of adjournments on these debates is limited, and this has the effec t of giving it a fourth adjournment in a sense. MR. GRAY : I don't mind, Mr. Speaker, it looks like an amendment to the amendment is disp osed of. MR. STI NSON : There's one more adjournment . There'.s two adjournments on it now. MR.

ROBLIN : Yes , will that be consi dered as the third adjournment if it goe� over to night? If that's so, I'm sat is­ fied MR. STINSON : Mr. Sp eaker , so far as our group is con­ ce rned, one of our members desires to spe ak now and an other honourable mem,ber ·is prepared to adjourn it afterwards �f no one else desi res to. MR. ROBLIN : That would be perfe ctl y sat isfa ctory. Thank you. (C ont inued on next page) 28

MR. P. \'JAGNER (F isher ): Mr. Speaker, first of all , I would like to congratulat e you on your election as Speaker of this House. Your pos ition , Sir, is the mo st important pos ition in this Legis­ lature . Each one of us, from the lowest back- bencher, to the Premi er of the Province, has to bow to your ruling. And your pos ition has the mo st responsibility and we all trust that your rulings will be just and impartial . I also wi sh to congratulate all the members for their election to this Legislature, particularly the Premier and his :Members of the Cabinet.

And, naturally, I would like to congratulate our Leader , wh ich is heading now a C.C.F. group , two and a half times bigger than the last one ; the largest C.C.F. contingency in the History of Manitoba . This is the first time. in 36 years that Fisher constituency was represented by anyone other than the former member of 'this constituency..

I trust that I shall be able to so conduct myself as one representing Fi sher and as one sharing the resp onsibility of legislating for all the peo ple in Ma nitoba, that I shall be able to win the approval of all the peo ple in Fisher for as many years as did my predecesso r . �� . Speaker, with your permission , I would like to carry on firstly with my constituency, wh ich I am very proud to represent . And what Fisher needs -- the constituency I represent is a depressed constituency.. It is dep ressed financially and physic ally . The phys ical depression makes the whol e area susceptible to flood ing.

Rainfall, which can be easily absorbed in other parts of Manitoba , will produce flood conditions in Interlake areas . This tendency t·o flood ing creates other problems . Drainage can­ not be effective as long as it 's done on a piece meal scale. What is needed is a plan, an active program for water control , which will be almost province- wide in its scope . Compl ementary to the control of water levels , is the great need for mor e roads, and much, much better roads . The farmer of today must travel and use the highways much mor e than any of his forebearers di d, and good roads are no luxury .

They are a genuine necessity . Our _ need, for both roads and drainage, which has been largely ignored in the past by thoughts, that in future, we 'll see a real change in this respect. Lack of water control has had a bad effect not only on roads but on our farms -- Fisher is almos t wholly an agricultural constituency . Anything that is harmful to fa rming is harmful to the peopl e in the area. Only in e�ceptional favourable years can the farmers in Fisher provide anything like a decent livelihood for themselves and their families .

Much re­ sear(!h work is needed ; on the soil , on the waters, and on the bush lands, in ord er to indicate the best me thod s of farming to be followed in order to produce good results . It very often happ ens that in spite of every effort by the farmer and the members of his family , he suffers from the result of failure - crop loss .

When such things happ en, there should be in existence, a form of crop insurance to wh ich I am sure every far mer will be glad to contribute, wh ich will assure a living income for the farmer and hi s family - no matter how unfavourable the farming co nditions may be , or how great the percentage of loss. No censure can be too severe to impose on the Government of ��nito ba , and the 29

Government of Canada, for their abject failure to wo rk out an effective plan for crop insurance . A dir ect conseq uenc e of that f�ilure has been the wid espread hard ships and sufferings of . far,mers and their families in Fi sher constituency. The phys ica:.J­ aq d financial depression is still with us and it calls much mo re strenuous efforts than were ever made in the past if the men and wome n in my constituency are to enjoy the living standards that are enjoyed by communities in other parts of the province. Mr.

Speaker, some of our peop le are de pendent on commercial f,ishing in order to supplement their income . This is another ,c;i.rea which has been criminally neglected for the last 55 years . ·some of our lakes had a goodly stock of Pickerel and \vhit efish .... ,,'now contain little but rock fish which is use less for commercial production . The Government of Manitoba allows the who le industry .to be dominated by a few commercial fish companies . These companies are interested only in the volume of revenue they get out of these lakes . They are not interested in the well- being of fishermen.

They are not interested enough in the long term health of the industry to spend any time or money in research or .conservation. Research is needed to determine whether or not present practice of throwing rock fish back into the ��t er is having a bad effect on the marketable fish. Res earch is needed to determine wh ether or not there is an adeq uate supply of food in the wat er for the fish. Research is needed with resp ect to the best methods of growing a good crop of co mmercial fish and with respect to the best methods of catch ing them.

Rese arch is needed in transportation, handling and marketing of all this fish . All this has been neglected in the p� st. Several attempts have been made over the years to organize the fishermen and try to develop a co -o perative organiz ation . The government shut its eyes an d made no effort to facilitat e such organization, until a coupl e of years ago , wh en one fish representative wa s appoin ted . Ge�erally, Mr. Speaker , the people in my constituency have suffered from governmental neglect, indifferenc e and inertia . Thus far I have been speaking about the peo pl e in Fisher const ituency .

I would like to sp eak for a few mome nts ab out matters wh ich affect the province as a whole . At the last Se ssion - the last Legislature - the government gave birth very reluctantly , to a plan of hospit al insurance. It was long overdue . It was planned in a hurry because the government had hoped it would not have to face up to it . Due to the government 's lack of enthusiasm for the project, it was so planned that practically the whole burden of cost would be borne by the subscribers to the plan, vdth only a very small prop ortion being carried by the Governmental Treasury .

It was due to th e lack of preparedness that the gov ernment was obliged to assume the cost of ho spital care for the first six mon ths . Now we are hearing all kinds of confessions about lack of accommodation and about peo ple wh o we re withou� income being billed for service ; about people pressured in to paying extra dollars to pay for so-called semi-p rivate qu arters . We are finding too that the cost per family are higher than they should be - much higher , in fact , than in Saskatchewan wh ere the peopl e are getting much better service at lower costs .

Just the other day the Honourable Leader of the Oppo sition referred to the 30

Saskatchewan group, s.o the looks of the things I ••.•• •... my Provinc e of Manitoba . It is not too soon to defend that this hospital plan be given a very searching examination. First, to assure that there will be adeq uate ho spital accommodation for those who are in need of it; and secondly, to .cut down the co st to the family to the lowest pos sible level. W'e find too that even with the hos pital plan in operation people are be ing forced to endure illness becaus e they cannot afford to pay the doc tor, med ical and drug bills .

It is time we had art overall health insurance plan in op eration such as they have in gr eat many countries in the civilize d world an d wh ich, incidentally, they have enjoyed for many years . There is another area in which we are backward in Manitoba . We have in operation . something wh ich is, to all intents and purpos es, a compulsory auto insurance plan. P.,say compul sory advisably becaus e the penalties which are impoSed if one do esn't . carry the insurance are so great that every motGI,rist is under compul sion to have the insurance . Here is the basis of the whol e plan .

It1s compul sory insuranc e with private colh,panies getting the benefit of it . It 1s high time, Mr. Speaker,:!.\that we have, not only a plan of auto insurance, but also gene:ti,;;,l insuranc e with the government as the insurer . \�le find that21i,we could pro­ vide better insurance at lower co st than any of t}1'e private companies . I notice that a few days ago our Prem:if\:!r made a speech in Brandon and he finally made the discover:lf that agri­ culture is a dep ressed industry . He outlined some ' .. plans for making agriculture a prospero us and attractive indt\stry to attract young men .

This would be done by assuring 'a supply of credit, to. combat the problem of establ ishing thos e who want to go farming . Vvhat farmers need is not credit . They do not want loans wh ich they will have. to starve thems elves to repay . The farmers kT).OW what they req uire . So doe s our Prime Minister, Mr . Diefen­ baker . A year ago he was promising parity prices and deficiency payments . What has happe ned to Hr. Diefenbaker1s prom ises? What has happened to that vis ion ·with which he blinded the peop l e a year ago? Mr.

Speaker, he has refused to go along with the idea bf parity for farmers and he has refused to entertain the propos al for deficiency payments whi ch he promised so freely only a few months ago. A farmer can have thou sands of dollars worth of credit but he 'll never be able to repay the loan if he cannot get adeq uate recomp ense for the work he do es and the food he produces . Neither Mr. Diefenbaker or our Premier is willing to 'provide the right answer to the problem of the farmer. Only the C.C .F. policy will work .

As long as the farmers feed the nation, they have a right to expe ct support from the whole nation . vVhenever they are rela­ tively depre ssed in po ssess ion - relatively depressed po sition, no matter what may be the market price of agricu ltural commodities the farmer should be assur ed of income sufficient to meet the needs of his family and to repay him adeq uately for the service he performs . As long as prices of agricultural produc ts are depressed, the farmers should be su bsidized by the nation as a who le, if necessary . Instead of parity, ·i nstead of deficiency 31

payments, �� . Diefenbaker comes along with a dollar per cultivated acre . What a vision ; '�nbat a betrayal of the Canadian farmer. The farmers. are not the only ones �. Diefenbaker has betrayed . He promised that no one worker woul d suffer from unenemployment . Not only are mo re workers going to suffer than. last year but more of th em are goin g to suffer more because their unemployment insur­ ance has run out .

This is going to place a greater burden of relief on the municipalities and provincial government, but due to the .action of the Federal Government , the municipalities and prov incial government are go ing to find financing more di fficult. Remember the total provided to aid the farmers who feed the nati:om was one dol lar per cultivated acre - a maximum of �$200.00 per farmer. How much has been gi ven to the banks and other fin­ ancial institutions in bonuses and higher interest payments as the result of reconversion of funds? Something like Sixty Million dollars a year.

Because of the higher in terest rates now guaran­ teed to the banks and financial concerns , interest rates in gen­ eral are likely to stay high , making it more difficult for munic­ ipalities and prov incial government to do the public work which might prov ide greater employment . The Conservative vision is now a distorted image . Soon this will fade away compl etely and the real alternat ive to vote Lib erals and Conservatives , the C.C.F . will do the job •••••••.• SOME MEMBERS : Hear, Hear ! MR. WAGNER : �. Speaker, Neither the Prime Minister nor · the Premier of Manitoba has the answer .

The answer is with this group , with the C.C.F. In the last legislature, �. Speaker , the Conservatives had eleven members in the House - now they form the Government. By co incidence in this legislature the C.C.F. have el even members in the House . That co incidenc e may con � ti�ue , will continue, and the next legislatur e may well see a C.C.F. Government. That will be a happy day for the people of Manitoba . MR. SPEAKER : Are you ready for the qu estion? MR. A.E. WRIGHT (S even Oaks ): �. Speaker, I'm prepared to move adjournment if no one else wishes to speak. MR. SPEAKER : Any other member wi sh to speak?

MR. \t·iRIGHT : Mr. Speaker, I beg to move , secon ded by the honourable member for Fish er, that this deb�te be now adjourned . Mr. Speaker pres ented the mo tion, called for a vo ice vote and declared the motion carried . v�. SPEAKER : The Ad j ourned Debate on the propo sed resolution of Mr. Gray . The honourable memb er for St. Natthews . �IR. W.G. MART IN (S t. l'-·1atthews ): Mr. Speaker, as we have listened to the speeches on these resolutions and the present­ ation of the resol utions by the honourable member for Inkster, 32

I am quite sure that many of' us had going through our minds this thought. · That one of' the great compensat ions that has emerged from �he period of' ec onomic dis order through which we have been passi ng is the trut h of' the age long princ iple that none of us liveth to oursel ves. There is no ques tion of real moment that does not ha ve some bearing upon human well be ing .

Everywhere 1 in our House of' Commons, in the Senate, in the Legis lative Chambers, City Halls and in Counc il Boards we are wres tling with �obl ems of' physi cal and mental dise ase, unemployment insu rance and workmen's compen sat ion, old age provisi ons, mothers' allow­ anc es, child care, family welfare and the like . And all thes e dis cussi ons, Sir, are based upon the ideal of' soc ial justic e and fre edom as nec es sary for the secu rity and st abilit y of' our ci vil­ ization . Her e, Mr.

Speaker, in Manit oba while we do not of' course acc ept the whole burden of' a soc ial amelioration, we are ready to as sume our fair and just share of res pons ibility . The sp eech of' the honourable the Minist er of' Health and Welfare yest erday afternoon, left no d-::mbt in our minds as to the inten tion of' the Min is ter to do what the honourable memb er for Inkst er sugges ted in his resolut ions - namely to give co nsi deration to the advis­ ability of so and so in the three - in the tripple resolution .

The Minis ter of' He.alth and Welfare mad e it abundantly clear that the Government has be en doing that, is doing it, an d intends to do it . At this stage of' co urse there can be no ••• the Min is ter cannot disc uss details . I .suppos e this will be inc orporated in legisl ation which will be brought down at the proper time. An important phase of' the sp eec h, Mr. Speaker, was his referen ce to co nferences which will be held in the near future, in the month of' November .

Conferen c es be tween the Government and soc ial agencie s and other objects - other organizations whose object ive is the welfar e of' our ci tizens, es pecially those who are in need of sp ec ial co nsid eration an d help. And if' they � I would like here, Sir, to pay tribute to many peopl e who are identify ing thems elves with soc ial crusad es and ca use s. The . names of the organizations are too many to ment ion, but this work is be ing brought vividly before us at the prese nt time during the Community Chest Campaign .

It would be a sorry day for us, Sir, were all this work to-- of' publ ic spir ited citiz ens, to be rel­ egated to the bac kground and supplan ted and su perc eded by Govern­ ment en terpris es entirely . That would be a tragic retrogres sion but it marks a forward st ep, Sir, when there is co -ope ration between government s and voluntary agenci es.

Never be fore, Sir, in his tory has there be en a ke ener in teres t taken in min istering to the nee ds of' unfortunate an d han dic apped ci tizen s, an d in all this governments are playing a need ing and ever incre asin g role and Manitoba, we are proud to say, is not fo und wanting. The government of' this Province is aware of' what is their res ponsib ­ ility in this regard . And the Min ist er of' Health and Welfare has sa id very def initely that the Government is prepared to take prompt ac tion in dealing with these probl ems . May I poin t out, Mr.

Speake r, that so cia l reform is not the monopoly of' any one political party. And I would like to remind the House that the Conservative policy believes in ce rtain measure of' ch ange for the 33

purpose of the conservation of those things that are for the general good . In other words , a program of soc ial· legislation is not incompatable with Conservative pol icy . The Minister of Health and Welfare said yesterday afternoon - "We are the party of action" . Mr. Speaker, that will be a splendid slogan for us when election time comes around . vie on your right represent the party of action. That man, that man, is the true Conservative that lops the mouldered branch away .

The Leader of the C,C.F. party referred to the hearty reception given by the Government side of the House to the resol­ ution of the member from Inkster . He said that this was a red­ letter day in the polit ical career of the honourable member . And he also poi nted out that it formed a striking contrast to the reception received by the member when in previous years he had submitted resolutions along similar lines . In fact , Sir,· the leader of the C.C.F. group might ha ve go ne a little fur ther and said th at the memb er for Inkster has gr own gray in his efforts to win the support of the House.

I know, of course, Mr. Speaker , that the Leader of the Oppo sition rose in an attitude of stormy protest against these op inions of the Leader of the C.C.F. At long last , Mr. Speaker, the Leader of th e Oppo sition appears in the role of the champion of the weak, and the aged and di stressed . He said that he has been always in fa vour of something being done , but the answer that he had to the qu estion of where the mo ney is coming from was "o ut of the pockets of .the taxpayers ". Serious bus iness, .t-1r. Speaker, isn 't it? Where does the money for roads come from?

Our of the pockets of the taxpayer s. vVhere do es the money for education come ? Out of the pockets of the taxp ayers. V�here do es the money for agricultural development come from? Our of the pockets of the taxpayers . And Mr. Speaker, if you were to put it to a vote of the taxpayers , they would rather, much rather, see their money goin g to aid needy senior citiz ens than to other enterprises wh ich somestimes receive the financial support of governments .

Even as my honourable friend , the leader of the Opposition was sp eaking in support of the pr inciples of the reso lution, I thought I could hear the echo of some famous wo rds - "Why didn 't they do it wh en •.• " So , Mr. Speaker, this Johnny Come Lately attitude of political expediency is not good enough . You can't fool all the people all the time .

There comes the fateful day, as it came in June last, when they say so . vJe have particular interest in the resolution before the House, because there is no aspect of social legi slation mor e des erving of generous support than the care of those citiz ens who have come to the sunset time of life, without adeq uate material resources . .t-1r. Speaker, they de serve a better fate .

In many instances they represent the pioneer stock of our country, and it can be said ·that so often "by blood and sweat and tears p they have played a valient part , with hardship they have raised their families and put them through school and co llege that they mi ght take a lucrative place in society . Played their parts then in th e up-bu ilding of this country. And all this , :tvlr. Speaker, is a challenge to governments at all levels . Mr. 34

Speaker , it is not to our credit as a ci ty or as a provinc e that so many of our sen ior ci tizen s have to live in cramped and crowded downt own tenements that are not very , very much better (t han the stan dards of slumdom. And I do get a real satisf act ion in going. down our main thoroughfares to see a lot of those old dwellings be ing torn down - where people are herded together like prisoners - and be ing replac ed by modern bus in esse s .

And my honourable frien d of Win nip e g Cen tre,. this after­ no on sp oke of the sc heme of developin g the 'idea of low-rental dwell ings where these couples can preserve their indepen denc e and enjoy the privileges of home at � time when they nee d it . That , Sir, des erves every support and every en couragement . Something is said in the fi nal reso lution about the estab­ lishment of provinc ial nursi ng home s for the aged .

I know it 's not wi thin the bound s of these resolutions - i know also that perhaps it 's a munici pal responsibi lity, but I would like to take this opportunity OI pl eadin g for a clo s er supe rvis ion OI private nursin g homes in our ci ty, that the people who are destin ed to sp end their last years there may be able to do it with a real degree of comfort and con tentment . As I say that th en that brin gs me to the point that in all this work , its the resp ensibll ity of Government s Continued on next page 35

in all soc ial reform on the level of the municipality, the pro­ vince , and the Federal autho�i ties. Mr . Speaker, of course its costly bus iness but. it can '.t be decently appro ached on the basis of how cheaply it may be done, but rather how it can be do ne in the best inte.rest of the people concerned . Mr . S peaker, I would like to congratulate the Member for Inkster for his enthus iastic and ardent support of Conservat ive principles and ideals. His hea:rtand his mind , Mr . Speaker, are in the right place , that is, on your right , wh ile his body reposes upon the left. MR .

STINSON : May I ask a que stion? Is that really parlia­ mentary? MR . MARTIN: That he should be on the left? .MR. STINSON : No , that he should be ch arged with hav ing Conservative princ iples. MR . MART IN : We ll , it's a compl imentl And I would like him to rest assured, Mr . Speaker, that the Gove rrunent will , with great diligence , pursue in study ing these important que stions that are presented in the resolut ions before us . MR. F. GROVES ( St. Vi tal): Mr . Speaker.

During the recent election campa ign, our Party included in its platform, a pledge to provide ass istance to old age persons in need. the Honour­ able Member from Inkster, no doubt , had this in mind when present­ ing th is resolution to the House . There is no que stion about his sincerity; this is qu ite evident in his compassioned plea to this House last night . His gro up , however, no doubt had in mind putting the Government on the spot with this resolution. Thi s , they failed to do. The Honourable Minister has indicated that the Government will support this resolut ion.

The C.C.F. has no , has no monopoly on feelings for old age persons in need . All of us in this gr oup appre ciate that there is a problem here , and the Honourable Member , or the Honourable Minister rather, has indicated that much work has been done , that much wo rk rem a ins to be done and wil l be. done , in time for action prior to th e next meeting of this House . Now the Leader of the Oppos ition , the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, ha s agreed in principle wit h the resolut ion.

He ha s cautioned , how ever, that we mu st keep in mind that the monies for this soc ial legislation mu st come from the tax , the pockets of the taxpayers , and this must be considered in drafting the leg islation. I might say that I agree wit h him. However, I have much more confidence in the administration than he does , and I am sure that when this legi slation is be ing drafted , that this will be taken int o cons ideration.

I have no doubt that all of these things wi ll be considered, and , when this Leg islation reache s the floor of this House , that t�ere will be displayed , the same general support from all parties that the present Gove rn­ ment measures are receiving. Let us remember, ho>:Jever, that old age pensioners are not paupers ; that all old age pensioners are not paupers ; they are n� 36

all in receipt of Municipal Rel ief. Many have done mu ch to fend for themselves. We mu st recognize their need also. Many now own home s of their own , small as many of them are. Many who went through the difficult times described by the Honourable Member for Inkster, even have saved a few dollars for .their old age. Many of these old age pens ioners , not in desperate stra its are also old age pens ioners in need . Let us not reduce them to poverty before we will help them. Let us not consider a soc iety where it pays to be thriftless . Old age pensioners in need, in my humble 'opinion , Mr .

Speaker, are di vided into three distinct classes, or categories . Firstly, those. who through circumstances beyond their control reach the sunset of life dest itute. Soc iety has a duty to see that such persons spend the balance of their lives with a reasonable standard of living and free from the financial worrie s that beset those who need medical an d dental, eyeglass and hearing aid care. Many of th ese same people contributed greatly during th eir pro­ ductive lives to the build ing of our Provi nce. The second category , in my opinion , Mr.

Speaker, are th ose who in their old age are destitute, because of unwillingness dur ing their product ive years to do anything to prov ide for their life.

On humanitarian grounds alone , we can, pardon me , on humanitarian grounds we cannot allow these people to go without food and shelter, even though we find it diffucult to sympathize with them. · And thirdly , those old. age pensioners who have in their late years ; who now own their own home s and find that their only source of income is the old age pens ion, and in some instances a small pension from their prev ious employer or sundry earnings from part-t ime wo rk in keeping with their phys ical cap abiliti es. 1'hese peop l e are perhaps , more fortunate than the others ; and yet, we must recognize them for what they have done for themselves.

Old age pension legislation mu st not discriminate against this group . In closing , I would like to urge the Government to take this into consideration when legislating for old age ass istance. I urge this House , to consider this last group ing, wh ich in my op inion , ha ve not had the breaks to wh ich they are entitled, when passing on this leg islation. And , I urge my honourable friend in the C.C.F. group , to give some credit to th ose , who through th es;e hard times , that they like to speak of so often, ha ve , even on low wages been able to provide in some part for their own security. 'MR. w. B.

SCARTH (R iver Heights ): Mr . Speaker. I was not about to make an address. I, if no one else wished to speak on this que stion, I would move , seconded by the Honourable Minister for Morris, move the adjournment of the debate. Mr . Speaker put the que stion and following a voice vote , declared the mo tion carried. MR . ROBLIN : This brings us to the end of our Order Paper tonight . I move , seconded by the Honourable Minister of Agri­ culture that the House do now adjourn and stand adjourned until 2: 30 o' clock tomo rrow afternoon. 37