Alberta Hansard — 1 May 1972, Afternoon sitting (14:30) (Legislature 17, Session 1)

19720501

Alberta — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Monday, May 1, 1972 2:30 p.m. [The House met at 2:30 pm.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair.] head: PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. ASHTON: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petitions of the City of Calgary for

an Act to terminate certain agreements between the Canadian Pacific Railway Company and the City of Calgary, and Orville B. Burkinshaw for

an Act respecting Great Way Merchandising Ltd. and The Securities Act. head: INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS MR. SCHMID: Mr. Speaker, I have a rare and distinct honour today to be able to introduce to this Assembly one of Alberta's most distinguished citizens. Mr. Speaker, this gentleman has given outstanding service to the North American broadcast industry and today is the 50th anniversary of such outstanding service. He long ago proclaimed his belief in the future of Canada and the electronic media through his pioneering efforts in broadcasting. He is known affectionately as the Dean of Canadian broadcasters.

In addition, many educational, cultural and humanitarian institutions and organizations are indebted to his selfless service and wise counsel. He is recognized throughout North America as a leader in his field. I wish to express the best wishes and congratulations of the people and government of Alberta to Dr. George Richard Agar Rice and ask him to rise and accept the acknowledgement of this entire Assembly. MR. STROM: Mr. Speaker, if I may be permitted to add a few words to the words just given by the hon. minister, it is certainly a real honour for us to have Dr.

Rice with us this afternoon in the Legislative Assembly. After having spent 50 years in the broadcasting service, I am sure that it goes without saying that he has seen some tremendous changes take place. It also goes without saying that he can take a great deal of personal satisfaction, having been in the business as long as he has, for the changes that have been made. We are very happy to join with the government in honouring Dr. Rice this afternoon, and to extend to him congratulations and best wishes in the years that lie ahead. MR. BATIUK: Mr.

Speaker, it gives me pleasure to introduce to you and through you to the members of this Legislative Assembly, 22 Grade 1X students from the St. Martins School in Vegreville, accompanied by their teacher Mr. Yuskow, and Mrs. Sakaluk and Mr. Landry. Mr. Landry at present is the District Deputy Grand Exalted Ruler of the Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2511

40-2 ALBERTA HANSARD May 1st 1972 Benevolent and Protective Order of Elks from District 10B. I would ask that the teacher and the students and Mr. Landry and Mrs. Sakaluk rise and be recognized. MISS HUNLEY: Mr. Speaker, it is my privilege this afternoon to introduce to you and through you to the members of this Assembly some 46 students from the Rocky Mountain House Junior-Senior High School. They are sitting in the members' gallery with their teacher, Miss Stanley, and I would ask them to stand and be recognized. MR. RUSTE: Mr.

Speaker, it's a privilege to introduce to you and through you a group of Grade XII students from the Hughenden High School in the Wainwright constituency. Their leader is Mr. Craig Benfield and they are seated in the members' gallery. They are here to view the operation of this Legislature and these students will be the men and women of tomorrow. I'd ask that they rise and be recognized. MR. ZANDER: Mr. Speaker, I'm delighted today to introduce to you and to the members of this Assembly 40 students from the Warburg Senior High School, accompanied by their teachers, Mr. Fry and Mrs. Outridge, and their guests, Mr.

Speaker, 20 boys from the Cole Cardinal Roy School and 20 girls from the Cole Secondary Marguerite School, accompanied by four teachers, Mrs. Berte LaClair, Mr. Guy Lessard, Miss Lina LeClair and Mr. Claude Gerbeau. They are seated in the public gallery and the 40 boys and girls are from the Province of Quebec. Would they please rise and be recognized by this Assembly. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Federal-Provincial Housing Loans MR. WILSON: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs.

Has the Alberta government replied to Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation's letter of April 11th, regarding federal and provincial matching loans up to $2,000 each to help low-income families buy adequate housing? MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, I think it might be better served in answering this question if our Minister of Municipal Affairs handled it. MR. RUSSELL: Mr.

Speaker, just to add to that, there are a number of items dealing with the legislation emanating from that federal department, beyond what the hon. member has referred to, and these are going to be the matter of personal discussions in Edmonton within the next few days. MR. WILSON: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Could the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs advise if there will be any plans to debate these various points in the Legislature? Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2512

May 1st 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 40-3 MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I can't answer that question. The matters that have been put. before us by the federal minister are of a confidential nature and I would say that it's unlikely they would be debated at this session. MR. WILSON: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Would the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs advise as to whether or not he would be prepared to table the decisions of the government when they do make that decision in a few days? MR. RUSSELL: Well, there should be no misunderstanding that there's a decision pending with respect to this government, Mr. Speaker.

The matters under discussion were initiated by the federal government. We intend to involve the municipal levels of government in Alberta in those discussions, but beyond that, there's nothing more I could add at this time. MR. WILSON: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. When would the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs expect to have made a decision and notify the federal government of the Alberta position on these points? MR. RUSSELL: Mr.

Speaker, as I understand it, the federal government is attempting to obtain reaction and provincial attitudes toward a number of matters, and the decision will be made by the federal government, and announced by the appropriate federal minister. MR. WILSON: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. If the points are going to be debated and discussed with municipal governments, should there not be an opportunity for the opposition to have an input into the decision? MR. RUSSELL: Not at all, Mr. Speaker. I think the hon. member has the wrong impression of what we are talking about.

The federal ministry has proposed a number of programs — and I can only say that much at this time — in which they are requesting, on a confidential basis, the reaction of the provincial governments throughout the country. They have suggested that it might be wise to obtain the viewpoints of municipal governments as well, and we propose to do that. It was specifically requested that the matters be kept confidential at this time, and we are attempting to honour that request. MR. WILSON: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

I know what I am talking about, but perhaps the hon. minister doesn't know what I am referring to. Perhaps I should ask another supplementary question. MR. COOKSON: Mr. Speaker, he has had a dozen supplementaries. MR. SPEAKER: Apparently they haven't covered the subject. Would the hon. member complete stating his point of order. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2513

40-4 ALBERTA HANSARD May 1st 1972 MR. WILSON: My point of order was, the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs stated that perhaps I didn't know what he was talking about. All I am saying, sir, is that I know what I am talking about, and perhaps I should ask a supplementary question of the hon. minister to clear the air. To the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs, has the provincial government made a decision on Mr. Basford's proposed amendments to The National Housing Act to provide loans up to 90 years at 7 per cent interest? MR. RUSSELL: Mr.

Speaker, I can only emphasize again the hon. federal minister has specifically asked that the items which officials of his department are coming out here to discuss be kept confidential at this time, and that we, as a provincial government, might wish to have a municipal input into the discussions. In line with the specific request to keep these matters confidential, I think any information that is released should come from the federal ministry. I intend to abide by the request contained in the letter. Beyond that I can say no more.

I think that the hon. member would serve Alberta well if he stopped guessing as to what these discussions were about until they have taken place. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. WILSON: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am not guessing. I have specific points that are public knowledge, common public knowledge. I was wondering if I could get an answer from the hon. minister on these specific points, so as to know what the government position is, and if they don't have that position yet — when we might expect to know what their position is? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is on a fishing trip.

He is using the wrong bait, and he has been told all he is going to get to know today. MR. WILSON: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order . . . MR. SPEAKER: May I suggest to the hon. member that perhaps we could improve communication between the hon. member and the hon. minister if a question were drafted for the Order Paper. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. WILSON: Mr. Speaker, may I ask one last supplementary question to the hon. Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs? Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2514

May 1st 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 40-5 MR. SPEAKER: On the same topic? — It would have to be, to be a supplementary. I would suggest that it be put on the Order Paper. The hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury followed by the hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview. Post-Secondary Education Financing MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs while we are talking about fishing trips.

At what stage are negotiations between the Province of Alberta and Ottawa concerning The Fiscal Arrangements Act and that portion of it which deals with the cost of post- secondary education? MR. GETTY: We have had a considerable number of meetings, Mr. Speaker, regarding the post-secondary education financing. The Fiscal Arrangements Act has been handled, almost exclusively, by the hon. Provincial Treasurer. I am not sure if there are any changes.

You know the policy which we have expressed, that we would like to have this type of cost-sharing program where the responsibility is completely under provincial jurisdiction, because education is clearly constitutionally a provincial matter. We would like to establish ground rules which will allow us, therefore, to obtain the funds to finance this program, and not have it come under any federal-provincial cost-sharing program. MR. CLARK: Some more bait, Mr. Speaker.

Is the Province of Alberta close to getting an agreement with the federal government on this particular matter as it affects post-secondary education? MR. GETTY: Well, I would say we are closer. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, with due respect, if he doesn’t get it finalized right away you are going to miss the fish, because the agreement runs out in a very short period of time. Could I ask the hon. minister, has there been an extension of the agreement which runs out in a matter of months, so that we in Alberta don’t lose out on the funds as far as post-secondary education is concerned? MR. GETTY: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, there has been an extension. MR. CLARK: How long? MR. GETTY: Two years, Mr. Speaker. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, is the extension in keeping with the government's stated policy of attempting to get out of cost-shared programs? Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2515

40-6 ALBERTA HANSARD May 1st 1972 MR. GETTY: No, Mr. Speaker, unfortunately it is an extension which we trust will allow us to arrange an agreement which will, in fact, provide for that in the future. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, has the Province of Alberta agreed to a limit of Alberta's expenditures — MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member is conducting a cross-examination. I wonder if this night be the last — MR. CLARK: We can wait for the estimates. Crude Oil Import Quotas MR. NOTLEY: I would like to direct this question either to the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals or the hon.

Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs. It is reported that President Nixon plans to increase the import quotas for foreign crude oil, but that any increase for Canadian crude oil will be marginal. Now my question to either one of the ministers is, has this government as yet made representation on this matter to the federal authorities? MR. DICKIE: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to answer that. I have answered that in the House a number of tines. We have been continually meeting with the federal government concerning free access to US markets.

I think I can advise the House that the latest developments are that we propose to have some energy consultation next month at a convenient time for the federal and provincial governments, and again we will stress free access to OS markets at those meetings. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Lesser Slave Lake followed by the hon. Member for Drumheller. Agricultural Service Centre MR. BARTON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to address this question to the hon. Minister of Agriculture. What is the government's commitment to the Agricultural Service Centre as proposed by Ottawa? DR.

HORNER: The provincial government's commitment is nothing at this time. MR. BARTON: Supplementary then, what is your position on the proposal? DR. HORNER: When the provincial government arrives at a decision on this matter, Mr. Speaker, we will announce it in the House. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2516

May 1st 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 40-7 Ultrasonics for Plant Growing MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, may I address a question to the hon. Deputy Premier. Is the government encouraging our farmers to put a device on the tractors to make more noise? DR. HORNER: I am sure that it isn’t, Mr. Speaker. MR. TAYLOR: In way of explanation, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the hon. minister is aware of the experiment that took place in — this will take just a very few words — a Carolina lab in which, by producing more noise, all the way from a screech to a noise coming from a jet, that they are able to make turnips grow 100% faster? DR.

HORNER: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is talking about the use of ultrasonics, particularly in regard to the growth of plants. This is an interesting development in agriculture, but I can't really see at the moment any practical application. MR. TAYLOR: Supplementary, does the hon. minister not realize that we might be able to make weeds grow that much faster and avoid using sprays and insecticides, etc., and then plough them under? DR. HORNER: Well, Mr. Speaker, perhaps that is why the plant has grown so much over the weekend. MR. TAYLOR: Perhaps it is. Supplementary, to the hon. Minister of the Environment.

What does he think about all this noise? MR. YURKO: Well, I agree with the hon. Deputy Premier. The plant has grown. Non-Permanent Staff Salaries DR. PAPROSKI: I would like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Public Works. Why is the wage staff, so called non-permanent staff, repeatedly laid off over the past number of years, in large numbers, repeatedly and apparently seasonally, despite the fact that many of them have been, in fact, associated with the Department of Public Works for five, ten or more years? DR. BACKUS: Mr.

Speaker, this is a very interesting question and one that does give me quite a bit of concern. The situation is, of course, that in the Department of Public Works we have permanent staff on salaries and quite a number of wage employees. The wage employees do collect a higher rate of pay than the permanent staff for the same Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2517

40-8 ALBERTA HANSARD May 1st 1972 job because of the lack of security that there is in their job. But because they are wage employees they can be laid off at any time that work is not available for them. The whole problem that this causes in that a number of people who have worked for the department off and on for a number of years are being laid off as a result of work not being available -- has caused me considerable concern and it is something that I'm taking a very careful look at to review the whole program in the department. Moon Rock Inspection MR. SORENSON: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the hon.

Minister of Advanced Education I will direct this question to the hon. Minister of Education. They are opening the moon rock boxes today and it is quite disappointing that we are not present. But I wonder are there any Albertans present? Have any Alberta scientists helped in the research on the moon rocks, and have past findings been made available to our university? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I don't have detailed information about that at the moment. I wonder, perhaps, if the hon.

Minister of the Environment might have some information with his knowledge as to — [Laughter] I'm just giving him a countdown now so that he can think about that. But I don't know whether we have anyone there at the actual moon rock opening. MR. SORENSON: A supplementary question to the hon. Minister of Culture, Youth and Recreation. Is it true that you will be making an announcement soon that a moon rock from a previous mission will be on display at our Provincial Museum and Archives this summer? MR. SCHMID: Part of the moon rock was on display, I understand, a year ago January.

One of the highest number of visitors the museum ever experienced visited the display that Sunday. I understand there were over 9,000 visitors. We hopefully will have a similar sample again some day in the near future. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary Buffalo, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary Millican. Alcohol and Drug Abuse Commission MR. GHITTER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon.

Minister of Health and Social Development which arises out of my concern that the Alcohol and Drug Abuse Commission may be hamstrung by the governmental procedures and controls in the difficult areas of their responsibilities. My question -- is this commission, Mr. Minister, regarded as being autonomous by this government? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, the commission under its legislation has a degree of autonomy, but it, of course, would be like other commissions in that it would be expected to act within the range of government policy from time to time.

Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2518

May 1st 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 40-9 MR. GHITTER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. May this commission then move outside civil service procedures and job classifications to hire and fire within its budget? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, the commission has some latitude in regard to hiring and firing in the sense that it may, because of its work, have classifications that don't exist as such in the civil service. I may be permitted to observe that it would be rather unlikely that many branches of the civil service would have to have, say, an alcoholism counsellor readily available, at least in large supply.

However, when it comes to other classifications that do exist within the civil service — and I am thinking of clerical and executive functions -- that would be the same in the commission as to the degree of responsibility as in the civil service. And we would expect the commission not to enter into competition with the civil service in regard to things like salaries and fringe benefits. MR. GHITTER: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Will the commission then be receiving in the near future, an indication from the government as to the long-range expectations which this government has for the commission? MR.

CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, it is my hope that within the near future -- I would think by mid-summer — it will be possible to appoint a full- time chairman to the commission. This would give a degree of leadership that they have lacked in the past. The acting chairman has brought a number of matters to my attention in regard to the sort of concerns that were raised in the earlier questions by the hon. Member for Calgary Buffalo, and these matters are under consideration at the present time. Village Lake Louise MR. DIXON: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. Premier.

During last week's visit of the Prime Minister of Canada, the Prime Minister stated that one of the major factors of whether the federal government would allow the Lake Louise project to go ahead would be a decision by the Alberta government whether they favoured the plan or not. I wonder if the hon. Premier is in the position today to announce just when we might expect a decision from the government, in order that we can pass it on to the federal government. MR. LOUGHEED: No, Mr. Speaker, I'm not.

I said, I think, the last time this subject was raised in the House that it would be some weeks before we were in a position to advise the House of our decision on the matter. I noted the remark made by the Prime Minister when he was here in Edmonton during his visit at the Jubilee Auditorium with the high school students. Certainly, we were aware of that, but we also, of course, have the assurance that no decision will be made by the federal government on the matter until they have heard the views of this administration. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2519

40-10 ALBERTA HANSARD May 1st 1972 New Northern Highway MR. DIXON: Supplementary question to the hon. Premier regarding the statement of the Prime Minister on the proposed new highway to the Northwest Territories. I was wondering if it is the provincial government's intention to immediately get together with the federal government and have the MacKenzie Highway — the portion that is within Alberta — brought up to a better standard than it is, in order that it can fulfill a greater role towards the new road. MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, I presume the hon. members were alert to the documents tabled by the hon.

Minister of Highways on Friday last. They indicated, of course, the fact that the day the Prime Minister announced in a speech in eastern Canada about the highway, I wrote to him and expressed the interest of this administration and said that our hon. Minister of Highways, Mr. Copithorne, would be in touch with their Minister of Transport, Mr. Jamieson. Mr. Copithorne tabled on Friday a letter which he had written and an acknowledgement to that letter, and it would be intended, and I think anticipated, that Mr. Jamieson and Mr.

Copithorne would be getting together, hopefully to discuss the planning of it in relationship to many questions, including of course, the item that has been raised by the hon. member. MR. DIXON: One last supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, regarding the same project in the northern area. I was wondering if this highway that is planned and the maps that they have shown — the preliminary maps at least -- to the provincial government, does this fit into the energy corridor that we all favour regarding pipelines and oil lines? Would it be a similar route that would fit in with Alberta's plans? MR. DICKIE: Mr.

Speaker, I might answer that in this way. I noticed the map in the paper today, and I was tracing it with the one that we have on the proposed energy corridor. I can see very similar areas where the route would follow the energy corridor that we are talking about. I have not had the exact map compared with the one we have, and I propose doing that with the hon. Minister of Highways. As soon as we have made our comparison we would be glad to advise the hon. member just exactly where the routes overlap. Calgary-Edmonton Rapid Transit MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the hon. Minister of Industry.

In view of what you said the other day, is the government considering some type of rapid transit between Calgary and Edmonton? For example, go-trains like those operated in Ontario by the Ontario government? MR. PEACOCK: Mr. Speaker, it was just a suggestion. We had no input as a provincial government from the two respective urban areas of Calgary and Edmonton. It was a suggestion to the two mayors that they get together and develop a plan, and through the co-ordination of the urban areas and the provincial government and the federal government, we would then sit down and set up our priorities.

But there wasn't anything definite. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2520

May 1st 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 40-11 MR. TAYLOR: Supplementary, I wonder if the hon. minister, in conjunction with the hon. Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs, might make very strong representations to the CPR regarding the possibility of a go-train between Calgary and Edmonton to give free enterprise the first opportunity of doing this? MR. PEACOCK: Mr. Speaker, I think that is an excellent suggestion and we will take it under consideration. MR. TAYLOR: One other supplementary. Again, in view of what the hon.

Minister of Industry said the other day, would rapid transit in Calgary and Edmonton be held up in any way pending this larger project that you mentioned on Friday? MR. PEACOCK: No, Mr. Speaker, I don't think it will be. University Examinations DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a question of the hon. Minister of Education, in the absence of the hon. Minister of Advanced Education. I would like to know if you, sir, know how extensive the use of 'canned term papers' is over at the university, or if you are aware that this is becoming a problem at the universities?

I mean, you know as well as I do that they have been used, but it is becoming a business that — With your indulgence, Mr. Speaker, several states of the Union have made legislation to say that you cannot use these in universities. I would like to know if you can inform the House on this matter. MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I have read recently about this operation which has, in fact, become a business in the United States, and I have heard that they were looking north to Canada. I don't know at the moment of any direct representations made by any of the higher educational institutions to the hon. minister, Mr.

Foster, but undoubtedly it may be that one of these institutions would be in touch with us, and we would then look into the desirability of legislation if possible in that area. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary North Hill, followed by the hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview. Highway 2, Calgary MR. FARRAN: Mr. Speaker, a question for the hon. Minister of Highways. Is there any progress over resolving the alignment of Highway 2, otherwise known as Blackfoot Trail, in Calgary, south of the Trans- Canada Highway at least as far as Memorial Drive?

There have been fears over possible loss of Inglewood Golf Course. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2521

40-12 ALBERTA HANSARD May 1st 1972 MR. COPITHORNE: Mr. Speaker, there is more study going into the possible re- routing or changing of the alignments. There are more alignments being looked at at this moment. MR. FARRAN: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. In view of the province's hugh investment between Airdrie and the Trans-Canada Highway, which is largely nullified until the road continues south, have you considered setting a deadline to the city on resolvement of these various alignments? MR. COPITHORNE: Mr.

Speaker, we are trying to get the study work done as soon as we can, and hopefully get the project underway some time this year. Non-Canadian Speech Pathologists MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct this question to the hon. Minister of Health and Social Development. By way of explanation, it is my understanding that in the Speech Pathology Department of the Glenrose Hospital, only three of the 24 professional people are Canadians. I wonder if the hon. minister could explain why this is? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I don't have any ready explanation for that.

I think that probably the shortage of that particular type of training is the reason. I don't think there would be any other. But along with that, the rapid expansion of that particular facility would have, if there was a shortage, caused an influx of people who were not trained in Canada. It probably also relates to training facilities for that particular specialty right across the country. But I don't mind looking into the matter further. It is clearly of interest when something like that is apparent. MR. NOTLEY: A supplementary question to the hon. minister.

I am wondering whether he could advise the House if one of the reasons is that speech pathologists must be accredited by the American Speech and Hearing Association? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I will find that information. Water and Sewage Systems MR. DIXON: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Industry. During a radio broadcast this morning I heard the hon. minister talk about extension of water and sewer, as far as industries are concerned, outside of the major cities and I wondered if he could enlarge to the House what he meant by that program. Is it a new program? MR.

PEACOCK: No, Mr. Speaker, I was referring to the fact that in order to have an equal opportunity in rural Alberta, two of the services that Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2522

May 1st 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 40-13 we have to have, so that it is equal for industry in rural areas vis- a-vis the urban areas, are water and sewage. That was my statement. MR. DIXON: Just one supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, to the hon. minister. Do you mean most of the towns and villages have water and sewage in Alberta? Would this be an extension of a separate system, or maybe enlarging the present system in some of the smaller towns to take care of the industry? MR. PEACOCK: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, what I am referring to is a situation like what happened in Olds, and situations such as we referred to in this House previously like Claresholm, where there are water problems. I think it behooves us as a government to make sure in out programs of industry that we will have an available source of water and sewage system in these rural areas, so industry could move there. MR. DIXON: One final supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the hon. minister. How is this going to be financed? Would it be separate to the Municipal Financing Corporation -- is it a separate fund? MR.

PEACOCK: I think it won't be separate exactly, but there might be occasions where it would be, and it is in these areas where there are LDC's or particular Local Development Corporations that are getting involved, that they will have to make special applications, in instances where they find a lack of water or a lack of adequate sewage. MR. TAYLOR: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Would this program be applicable to hamlets in improvement districts? MR. PEACOCK: Mr. Speaker, we didn't expand it that far.

We were talking in terms of areas that had generated their own programs of development and where they wanted assistance in developing these facilities. MR. CLARK: A supplementary question. Where do communities having water problems — who should they apply to? To your office? MR. PEACOCK: I think they should apply to the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs, and then a copy to our office so that we are in tune with what the problem is. MR. SPEAKER: Is this a supplementary? The hon. Member for Wainwright. Livestock Advertising on Highways MR. RUSTE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon.

Minister of Highways. What changes has the minister made in the use of advertising along our numbered highways, specifically with Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2523

40-14 ALBERTA HANSARD May 1st 1972 reference to a producer of livestock wishing to direct or give direction to his operation? MR. COPITHORNE: Mr. Speaker, we have allowed producers to put up signs — 30 inches by 60 inches long — on their own property. This has been a change that I think many of the livestock people have enjoyed. MR. RUSTE: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. minister. Will he consider giving permission to a farmer to put his own sign on his neighbour's land?

And I am referring here to a farmer who may live back from the highway one mile, two miles, three miles, or so on, and certainly give him the same advantage that the one who lives adjacent to the highway has? MR. COPITHORNE: Well we are trying to consider a policy that will be uniform in this regard, Mr. Speaker. I was waiting until the session was out so that I could travel around the province and see what the demand was in this regard, and so that we would have a uniform signing policy that would be compatible to the use of advertising of agricultural products. MR. RUSTE: Just a supplementary then.

I take it then that the minister is giving this serious consideration so that he doesn't discriminate against those who do not happen to be adjacent to a highway? MR. COPITHORNE: Mr. Speaker, I don't think it is a question of discrimination at all. I think it is just a matter of having signs on the highway that are compatible to the people that are living in the area and to the beauty of the country. Medicare Coverage Outside Canada MR. BUCKWELL: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a question to the hon. Minister Without Protfolio Responsible for Medicare.

Does an Albertan, 65 years or over, if hospitalized or for medical treatment, have full coverage under the Alberta Health Care Insurance scheme outside of the province, particularly in the United States? MISS HUNLEY: Yes, they do if they are temporary visitors, it they are absent on a vacation. If they go down specifically to seek treatment, then it has to be treatment that is not available in Alberta before arrangements are made for this. MR. BUCKWELL: A supplementary question.

If the total bill was $500 in the United States and the Alberta Health scheme only pays $300, do they have to pay the $200 or does the health scheme pay the full $500? MISS HUNLEY: It's paid on the basis of the fee for service on Alberta rates. There is a difference. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2524

May 1st 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 40-15 MR. BUCKWELL: A further supplementary. They could, then, be charged the difference between our coverage and what was charged in the United States? MISS HUNLEY: In the case of emergencies there are extentuating circumstances. If there is a problem — is there a specific problem with somebody or are you just seeking information? MR. BUCKWELL: Yes, there is. MISS HUNLEY: If there is, I'd like to look into it for you. DR. BUCK: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker, along the same line.

In the instance where, say, a specialist service is not available in Canada, but is referred by a specialist here to a specialist in the United States, is there any extended coverage, or is it just the Canadian rate and the Alberta cost of hospitalization? MISS HUNLEY: Mr. Speaker, there was a change made — I believe it was during the last session — where there was a special fee set up that must be obtained and cleared and there must be very extenuating circumstances, but there is such an allotment. DR. BUCK: What coverage would that be, hon. Minister?

MISS HUNLEY: To the best of my knowledge, it's based on any medical treatment required outside the country that's not available in the country, and it's only on very extenuating circumstances where it's not available here — some specialized treatment. Non-Permanent Salaries(cont'

d) DR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a supplementary question to the hon. Minister of Public Works regarding the previous item, the wage staff of the Department of Public Works. I got the message that you were going to review this particular area. May I have some assurance, Mr. Minister, that in fact, it's not going to be just a review, but with the intention of having a policy to make it less unpredictable and less insecure for these people? DR. BACKUS: Mr. Speaker, this is what we are going to look into. There are quite a number of different factors involved in this.

Some workers would rather be on wages, even though it is insecure, because they get a higher wage. If you put everybody on permanent staff so that they have job security, then the cost of your operation is going to go up considerably because they won't all be employed all the time. time. Therefore, what we have to look at are several possibilities, one of reducing the staff in the Department of Public Works and going Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2525

40-16 ALBERTA HANSARD May 1st 1972 more to the private sector, even for routine maintenance jobs, or the possibility of having a basic fairly permanent staff in the Department of Public Works. But the whole thing does require very careful consideration. Marketing Promotion MR. RUSTE: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Agriculture. Earlier in this session the minister announced the amounts of assistance to several producer groups to aid in promoting marketing. Is he in the position now to give us any indication of what other ones will be receiving assistance in this field? DR.

HORNER: Any producer group that shows some initiative, Mr. Speaker, will get the full assistance of the department in developing for marketing, and I say that not facetiously, but in a general way. The producer groups that were not represented in the list that I announced a couple of weeks ago, either got assistance prior to that time or haven't come forward with a program to develop that assistance. Highway Signs MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a supplementary question to the hon. Minister of Highways, related to the whole question of highway signs.

Has the government established any policy in view of the fact that a federal election is just around the corner? Has the government established any policy with respect to individuals along major highways putting up political signs on their property? MR. COPITHORNE: Mr. Speaker, in this regard the policy has been that the signs have to be instructional. I don't know whether some of the instructions that would come from political signs would be very good for the people generally, or not. But anything that distracts people's attention unnecessarily is considered not useful in signs. MR.

YURKO: I might suggest to the hon. member that certain types of advertising might be classified as litter under The Litter Control Act. MR. HYNDMAN: Further, Mr. Speaker, some advertising is more educational than others. MR. NOTLEY: Notwithstanding, which is the litter and which is the education? Has the hon. minister given any thoughts about the implications vis- a-vis The Human Rights Act, the right of individual property holders to put up signs displaying either educational information of a political nature or litter information, depending on how one views the sign?

Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2526

May 1st 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 40-17 MR. COPITHORNE: Now that the hon. member has brought this to my attention, we will certainly have a discussion on it, and we will have a policy by the time the election gets around. Timber Berths MR. RUSTE: Mr. Speaker, a question to the hon. Minister of Lands and Forests. Is the hon. minister giving consideration to the reduction in size of any timber berths, or the cancellation of any existing ones? DR. WARRACK: Mr. Speaker, it is possible that among the very large number of timber berths that we have, we may be in the process of cancelling some for some particular reason.

If you have a specific instance in mind I would be very happy to follow it up. MR. RUSTE: Supplementary to the hon. minister. He mentioned some particular reason — can you think of any particular ones that they may use in the cancellation? DR. WARRACK: Yes indeed, Mr. Speaker such as the failure to properly clean up the operation that is the aftermath of a timber operation, and the possibility of this leading to a fire hazard. Today, as a matter of fact, officially starts fire season. So that would be an immediate reason that would come to mind. MR. RUSTE: Supplementary to the hon. minister.

Would there be any thought, because of the size of them, to cancel them out, or a portion of them? DR. WARRACK: I am quite sure the answer to that, Mr. Speaker, is no. ORDERS OF THE DAY COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I move that you do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply for consideration of the estimates. [The motion was agreed to without dissent.] [Mr. Speaker left the Chair. ] *********************** head: COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY [Mr.

Diachuk in the Chair.] Department of Health and Social Development Appropriation 2505 Research and Planning Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2527

40-18 ALBERTA HANSARD May 1st 1972 MR. R. SPEAKER: May I ask a question, Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. R. SPEAKER: There are two questions I would like to ask with regard to the planring component in the department.

(1) What is the stage of development of the planning component in the department?

(2) What projects is the planning component dealing with, and what is the priority of those projects for the coming fiscal year? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, as the House would know, the approach to planning that the government wants to use is planning and program development as related to government policy, rather than the overall, highly theoretical type of planning which has been criticized by the present government in some other areas, such as the Human Resources Research Council and some of the other ones in that area.

I feel that we have quite deliberately beefed up this component in order to plan for particular program areas for government. We are overhauling, I think it is a good word -- reviewing in any event -- programs such as the whole public assistance area at the present time, along with the various details, the things that make up the very large public assistance budget there is.

We are reviewing areas these are in-House reviews where outside consultants haven't specifically been brought in — we are reviewing the relationship with municipalities generally, and specifically in relation to preventive social service programs. We are working very assiduously in the area of the revenue side, particularly in the sense of the federal cost-sharing programs and that sort of thing, which I referred to briefly the other night. These are some of the areas where planning and research are going on at the present time, and they are related to the government's overall policy.

These are our directions and that is where the planning is being done. I think, since my hon. friend was minister, the number of people involved has been increased. There has been an attempt to recruit actively from what was, I would suppose several years ago, a neglected area, and which became a

section of the department within the last year or so, and began its recruiting I think, at that time. Now although not merged with the office of the Chief Deputy Minister, it is closely liaisoned with the office of the Chief Deputy Minister in order that research programs that are carried out would be most directly related to priorities. MR. R. SPEAKER: Just a comment, Mr. Chairman.

One of the reasons we felt a planning unit was necessary in the department was to give the minister more time to work on new policy areas, rather than work on policy and building the policy and implementing it, and if you would care to comment on that, I would appreciate it. My other question, though, is with regard to the corrections planning:

(1) Could you give us — I don't think you mentioned that in your list of priorities — what is the state of planning in that area?

(2) Has Mr. McGrath consented to work part-time, full-time?

(3) Is someone else going to be responsible for carrying on full-time planning in that area? Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2528

May 1st 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 40-19 MR. CRAWFORD: As the hon. member may know, the area of adult corrections, which I think was considered a pending transfer to health and social development last year, was not proceeded with and was left with the Attorney General's department. As far as correctional programs for juveniles are concerned, I acknowledge the importance of this area, but haven't treated it as one where planning is a priority. There are several programs. I think the one at the Youth Development Centre would probably have to be called innovative right now.

It is no doubt the result of previous planning which is contemporary, and I think we have to go through an evaluation stage with that particular program before heading into much more program planning. Therefore, I don't mind recording that since the question relates to where this rates in the priorities, I would put quite a number of other items ahead of it, including the items that I referred to originally. Appropriation 2505 total agreed to $ 279,550 Appropriation 2506 Public Communications MR.

BENOIT: I would like to ask the hon. minister if he would delineate a little bit more in detail the intentions of this Public Communications

section of the department? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, the overall role of health education in the past, I think, has been adopted from the traditional sense of health education and that is primarily the publication of information. And I note from my notes on this that this may be one of the things that interests the hon. member, a very substantial increase of over 60%.

This is partly a result of the fact there was a cost- sharing program, or at least a federal input if not a specific cost- sharing program, in past years where some of the income was from the federal government, and this has now been taken over completely by the province. The provision in this vote is for the purchase and distribution of educational materials entirely by the province.

It would be one of those departments that, I would say, has not come first under my scrutiny for re-organization although I have made some conclusions to the effect that, because of the traditional pattern it had always operated in, it could likely be operated more effectively in the future. I think there must be ways of educational involvement by the department that could be more directed toward results achieved through effective education of the public. It's a small branch by comparison with most of the others.

For that reason I have pretty well deferred until, say my second year, any real new directions for this particular division. MR. BENOIT: Is this public information for all of the Department of Health, for instance, like the information that goes out from the Alberta Health Care Insurance Commission as well? Or is this just something other than that? MR. CRAWFORD: This is the department itself and does not include the three commissions. Appropriation 2506 total agreed to $ 132,290 Agreed to without debate: Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2529

40-20 ALBERTA HANSARD May 1st 1972 Appropriation 2525 Edmonton Diagnostic Centre $ 629,210 Appropriation 2526 Youth Development Centres MR. R. SPEAKER: In light of your earlier comments, is it the intention then of the government to transfer youth development centres to the Attorney General’s Department, or transfer the responsibilities for juvenile offenders back to that department? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr.

Chairman, the present distribution is what will be kept in the foreseeable future, and that is that male offenders under 16 and female offenders under 18 are still juveniles in Alberta, and these would be the ones that are referred to in the youth development centre. Persons over that age group, being adults, are handled by the Attorney General. MR. R. SPEAKER: The programs that are presently initiated in the youth development centres will continue, and is it at the end of this fiscal year that you will do an assessment as to whether the programs will continue or not? MR.

CRAWFORD: Yes I might say that I think this is a program that has attracted a lot of attention in two ways; one way is that a lot of people, including members of the public, have the established view that this is a very expensive institution really for any purpose. When you look at about $12,000 to $14,000 a year per resident it becomes something that attracts attention as to what is being achieved there. It has attracted attention in the sense of its high cost. I know members of the Legislature have mentioned this to me as well as some members of the public.

However, it has attracted attention in another area, and that is the depth of its programs and the complete range of programs that are offered there. I think, also, the dedication of the relatively new staff that's there. By 'new', I mean they were pulled together many of them may be experienced — but pulled together particularly for that institution.

In that sense, as far as the evaluation is concerned, I felt that my first impression — I haven't had long enough to let it mature — that my first impression that the cost was unwarranted might tear some re-examination and, therefore, the bringing forward of another full fiscal year will I think give the opportunity for evaluation by the end of this year. MR. R. SPEAKER: One other question. Since the government feels the Magrath Report should take a low priority, does this mean that some of the concepts that are in the Magrath Report are not supported by the government? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr.

Chairman, I'm going to admit that, although I'm a lawyer, I have not myself studied the Magrath Report. I know that it's been a well established report in its field for two or more years, but as to government policy in respect to it, I'm not in a position to answer in general terms. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2530

May 1st 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 40-21 MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Chairman, in light of that answer, will we in the House and will the people of the province know during this coming fiscal year what steps you will take in order to continue the implementation of that report? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, I think, if I understand the Magrath Report correctly, it relates to corrections as a whole, and the item that I have been relating to here is relating to young people. I think the Attorney General would still have to be the one to answer in general terms for implementation of the Magrath Report.

If the programs that are in process at the youth development centre at the present time in some way reflect the recommendations of the Magrath Report, then all I could say is that those are then the programs that are being evaluated. But to take the report and say, sort of clause by clause, that it should or should not be implemented is something that I am unable to answer at the present time. MRS. CHICHAK: Mr.

Chairman, if I may ask the hon. minister, I have had numerous requests through representation that perhaps consideration should be given that the age should be made uniform for adulthood for the young people, particularly in the youth development centre. That is, both toys and girls should be 18 or 17 or whatever. Could you express what your view is on this? MR. CRAWFORD: My feeling is, Mr. Chairman, that it should be 18 across-the- board, but no steps are immediately pending to bring that about. That, I think, answers the question in my own view, and there are many reasons for that. MR. R.

SPEAKER: I wonder if I could ask the hon. Attorney General to comment on the answers of the hon. minister, and to advise the House whether his department will proceed with fulfilling the commitments of the Magrath Report? MR. LEITCH: Well, Mr. Chairman, again I can't answer that on a clause by clause basis but as I said earlier, we are going to do a complete review of the correctional institutions and the rehabilitative programs as soon as the House recesses.

There are a great number of the Magrath Report recommendations that were, in fact, implemented by the time the report came out, and a number have been implemented since then. But without doing some work on it, I can't go through them and tell you which ones have been, and which ones are in the process of being implemented, and which ones we're going to take another look at in the summer. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Chairman, if the Attorney General would just itemize some of the ones they have implemented since coming into office, then I think I can take it from there. MR. LEITCH: Mr.

Chairman, to do that I'd like to get the report from my office. I have a file on it which I just looked at the other day, and we went through each recommendation. I think there is something like — they run close to a hundred I think. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2531

40-22 ALBERTA HANSARD May 1st 1972 MR. R. SPEAKER: Supplementary, Mr. Chairman, could I ask the Attorney General to provide a report on this, or present some type of a

summary report to the legislature. MR. LEITCH: Mr. Chairman, I can give the hon. member a breakdown of all the recommendations, and a resume of what's been done with them. How quickly do you... MR. R. SPEAKER: All I'd be interested in is just a point form

summary of the ones that have been implemented by the present government since September 10th. MR. LEITCH: What's the time element? MR. R. SPEAKER: Let's say by the end of this month. MR. LEITCH: I'll do that, Mr. Chairman. MR. FARRAN: Mr. Minister, regarding the answer you gave to the question of the hon. Member for Edmonton Norwood, wasn't the bill you introduced the other day something that is coming toward the position where you can give assistance to a boy over 16 through provisions for needy children? Maybe I missed the purport of it, but wasn't the bill introduced just a few days ago? MR.

CRAWFORD: On this particular item as it relates to the setting of the age for a juvenile, nothing has come forward. MR. FARRAN: I mean a bill to provide for assistance to children over the ceiling age of 16? MR. CRAWFORD: Are you thinking of the amendments to The Child Welfare Act? I would have to say that's in the hands of the hon. Member for Edmonton Kingsway at the present time, and I don't know if that specific detail is in it or not. DR. PAPROSKI: If I may speak on that. As I understand it, it's up to 21 because of some cost-sharing with the federal government. A child is defined as somebody 21 and under.

MR. FARRAN: Maybe I didn't follow the wording of it. What is the intent of that bill? Isn't it to come some way towards this position of your not being able to assist a male child over the age of 16? Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2532

May 1st 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 40-23 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think on this particular vote, we perhaps shouldn't get into The Child Welfare Act amendment. That would be my observation, but I also say to the hon. Member for Calgary North Hill that I certainly would be interested in reading the bill with that comment in mind, and arriving at an opinion as to whether or not it is helpful in that way. MR. FARRAN: Well, Mr. Minister, you did mention that some of the public had reservations about the cost factor of the cottage home approach. Is this what you were referring to? MR.

CRAWFORD: I meant that the per-resident cost of the youth development centre in Edmonton had been made the subject of some comment by members of the public and by members of the Legislature. It is a rather high cost. MR. FARRAN: Yes, well maybe I could just say a few words on that public point of view and it's a qualified point of view. My experience only stems from having been a chairman of the Lacombe Home for many years, which was a home for needy children until it was phased out as a result of changes in government policy.

I don't think anybody in the child care field disagrees with a basic premise that if you can fit a child into a foster home, so much the better, that there is a much better chance for rehabilitation. And even if a child fails to become adjusted after a series of foster home experiences, it's probably still better to put the child in a cottage type home with a housekeeper, than in one of the old fashioned institutions.

But then they do recognize that to run a large number of cottage type homes, is very expensive in terms of there not being a central heating supply, all the obvious cost advantages that come with a large building as opposed to a dispersed establishment. The big argument in the years gone by was that the government very abruptly switched to the foster home cum cottage home type concept, and allowed the backstoppers, the larger institutions, to run down,

whereas there was a thought that it would be better to keep those large institutions as a harbour for emotionally disturbed children,or those who were damaged by a series of unsatisfactory foster home experiences. Sometimes a child just won't fit into a foster home, sometimes the foster parents tend to look on them as unpaid chore boys and so on, and they just don't settle down. I have come across numbers of children who have been in as many as seven or eight different foster homes, which must be a bad experience in the light of their total emotionally disturbed state.

Is there any thought that some of these empty establishments, which are extremely well built and constitute investments of thousands of dollars by private agencies, could be put to any good use? I'm thinking, in particular, of the Lacombe Home in Calgary which is probably worth more than three million dollars but which could be bought probably for about 3/4 of a million, or one million dollars. It has one very old building that was built by Father Lacombe, but it has a very new building that was once used for the training of young novitiate sisters.

It also has a modern school, modern kitchens, and that sort of thing, attached, and it has been completely empty for about four years. MR. CRAWFORD: My approach to this whole area is to discover what the beginning point is to begin a program, and to know what the objectives of the Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2533

40-24 ALBERTA HANSARD May 1st 1972 program are, and how it can be implemented, and what the cost of the thing is going to be, and what the hoped for results might be. Not to relate the decision primarily to an institutional base. This is just by way of preliminary response to this point. Therefore, having achieved that much, and having then the need for a place to carry out the program, my mind is completely open if the site available in any particular case is suitable to the program without the construction of something new.

Indeed that would be preferable as we have found in one or two instances already, and I suggest that the best example of that is the conversion of the old Misericordia Hospital for certain other department uses. However, as far as the Lacombe Home is concerned, last fall I did ask two officials to inspect it and examine it, and appraise it for possible use by the department. I was a little bit surprised that they came back with the view that on balance, we shouldn't attempt it — it was going to require expensive restoration.

It is true, what is there is substantial and well built, but to adapt it suitably, I think would have been more than would have been economical for us. So, in that particular case, it wasn't to be used. As a whole though, once the program is arrived at, I am certainly open to using facilities which can be converted to the use of the program rather than building new ones if possible. Appropriation 2526 total agreed to $1,489,970 Appropriation 2527 Youth Group Homes MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, I would like to say a word or two in connection with foster homes. It seems that this is the proper place.

I was wondering if the report from Judge Catonio and his committee has yet been received? The other point I would like to deal with specifically is the practice that appears to have grown up, where foster parents want to adopt one child, but they are not permitted to do so unless the rest of the children are removed from the home. I think any blanket policy dealing with boys and girls is bad.

The primary object in dealing with boys and girls, whether they are foster children or otherwise, has to be based on doing the best for that particular boy and girl in view of his or her particular situation and emotional condition etc. I have seen cases where a youngster had a good chance of becoming emotionally disturbed because he was being removed from a home, not because the foster parents wanted him to be removed, but simply because the foster parents had adopted a little baby or a child and hadn't adopted the balance.

I know the arguments that are advanced by some of the social workers, but in actual practice, I don't go along with those arguments, because in many cases, the children who are in the foster home are quite prepared to accept the child as the real child of those parents without it having any ill effect at all. When a boy or girl who has been with the same foster parents for a number of years is removed, possibly a year or two before they reach maturity or legal maturity, it has a very bad effect on those particular youngsters.

I would hope that the hon. minister would review this policy, and I’m hoping Judge Catonio's report will deal specifically with this particular item. My own view is that the policy should be based on the good of the child, not on any blanket policy that has been worked out by social workers. I simply mention this because I think it's a very, very important item, and I've had experiences in three different homes with it this last year, and in each case, it is my view, and I Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2534

May 1st 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 40-25 think the view of anybody who knew the situation, thatt the children should not have been removed from that home simply because the foster parents had legally adopted one child. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, I think the point raised is an interesting one, and I have no hesitation in agreeing to the review as requested, of that particular policy. I think the hon. member has covered both sides of the issue so that it's not necessary for me to comment on the reasons for it. I'm agreeable to the review.

The other question in regard to Judge Catonio's report -- we've received no date yet from Judge Catonio as to when he expects to have it in. I understand that we're looking at early summer. MR. R. SPEAKER: With regard to youth development centres, or centres for juvenile offenders, will construction of facilities for this program take place in Lethbridge and Grande Prairie? MR. CRAWFORD: I think I have that information here, Mr. Chairman. Reference was made to the Lethbridge assessment centre? MR. R. SPEAKER: Yes. MR.

CRAWFORD: That one is not going to be proceeded with this year, but the one proposed for Grande Prairie is expected to be proceeded with this year. Appropriation 2527 total agreed to $ 187,500 Appropriation 2528 Youth Receiving Centres MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, is there any particular reason why this particular program is conducted only in these centres? MR. CRAWFORD: Lethbridge, Blairmore and Brooks? I can't quite figure out the two smaller communities there myself, to be quite frank about it.

I know that the receiving centres are not required in most of the larger cities because other facilities are available there and can be used. That would explain Lethbridge, for example. It's a large enough city with problems of that type that it should have its own receiving centre. I don't have an answer in regard to Blairmore and Brooks, although it does not say in that appropriation that the centres exist there. It says it is for those areas. If there is more detail that the hon. member would like, I would be glad to undertake to obtain it.

Appropriation 2528 total agreed to $ 105,160 Agreed to without debate: Appropriation 2529 Infant Medical Assessment Centre $ 340,940 Appropriation 2530 Regional Offices 7,021,460 Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2535

40-26 ALBERTA HANSARD May 1st 1972 Appropriation 2516 Public Assistance - Categorical Pensions MR. TAYLOR: Could you give the reason for the change in numbering here? We are back to No. 2516. MR. CRAWFORD: I have just observed that this afternoon myself. The pages were inserted in the wrong order. MR. CHAIRMAN: I didn't dare ask, I just continued. Appropriation 2516 total agreed to $2,537,000 Agreed to without debate: Appropriation 2520 Homes and Institutions Administration $ 158,470 Appropriation 2521 Alberta Geriatric Centres 3,692,500 Appropriation 2522 Single Men's Hostels MR.

NOTLEY: There are a couple of questions on this particular appropriation. I wonder if the hon. minister could explain why we have a reduction of 17.4%. Secondly, what the government's position is — whether they have given any assessment to the RFP experiment in Calgary -- whether they think it is successful or not? And whether or not they feel there is a place for the private sector in social development policies. My view on this is fairly well known. I don't think there is, but I would like to hear what the government's position is with respect to profit making portion of the private sector.

I should perhaps clarify what I said. There is a role for the private sector as long as it is not profit making, but I don't think we should have profit making concerns directly involved in social development programs. I would like the hon. minister's view as to what the government's position is on this matter. Also, the specific reasons for the 17.4% reduction in this appropriation. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, the 17.4% reduction is related to the presumed curtailment in the volume and cost of the services, based on the past year's operation.

The 1972-73 estimates are the closest that the department — based on their experience in the last year, which involved the adventure in Calgary into private enterprise -- basing the estimates at the time these were made on what was thought would be actually spent. This includes that adventure, and what it was thought the cost could be reduced by if that operation were carried on in the same way as the balance of the service. This is the projected decrease.

I must say that it looks like a more substantial decrease than I would have thought if I had been just asked about it, without knowing that the figure is, in fact, based on projections which are arrived at to the best ability of the department. Experience will show whether or not they actually reduced that much. I might say that it doesn't imply that the treatment of single transient men for example, would be shabby in any way. It is meant to be regularized in a way that will provide adequate room and board and the full requirements within reasonable limits, of those men.

Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2536

May 1st 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 40-27 Now, on the other question, I don't foresee any further Persona- care adventure at the present time. I don't foresee one at all, as a matter of fact. I reviewed that contract last fall, quite early on in my responsibilities as minister, and although some of the goals, when ideally stated, would appear to be desirable, it seems to me that the experience up to that point, — and it was, I believe, about ten months, between nine and ten months of the year at that time since it had come into effect -- gave I suppose, some unusual advantages to the operators.

I am now referring to the specific agreement rather than to the concept as a whole. Not enormously enriching advantages, but just arrangements in the agreement. If I remember my reading of it, things like advanced payments, things like termination arbitration, and whatnot, seemed to me to have been so generous that it wasn't an appropriate sort of arrangement for a government to have with the private entrepreneur, where the field that they were operating in was not traditionally one in which private enterprise is involved.

I don't say that I have examples to call to mind at the moment, but my mind is certainly open to areas in government as a whole where the tradition is in private enterprise to see work contracted out, and I think that is often done. But this one seems to me to be a sort of an unfortunately crashing example of something that wasn't appropriate, and wouldn't work, so in this area I foresee no new attempt. MR. NOTLEY: Mr.

Minister, just further to the RFP experiment, is there any assessment that the department has made that would be available to people who are interested, or is this considered interdepartmental information, and consequently not information which would be disclosed. I am just curious about this because there was a great deal of publicity given to this experiment, and also the possibility of a similar plan in Edmonton, and it aroused widespread interest among a number of groups concerned about social development policies.

I wondered if this information would be available as to the government's assessment of the Calgary experiment. MR. CRAWFORD: That information exists in the form of a — I don't know if it is several — but of a couple or more reports from staff that were done either for me or for the Deputy Minister, and I think what I would like to say on it is, rather than do what is the agreeable thing, I am sure, and just say that I will make them available, is to give consideration to that.

I consider the issue one that doesn't have any great current significance, and if the disclosure of what was there was only for the purpose of appearing to downgrade the efforts that were made during the year by the organization in question, that to me would not serve any important purpose. So I will be glad to take the matter under consideration and see about providing the reports I referred to. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Minister, is the level of service at the Calgary hostel at the present time equal or better than the service provided by Persona-care during their term of office? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr.

Chairman, I think we're dealing in two areas when we talk about the level of service. The actual physical components of room and board the department maintains, are done better than was done before, and the physical requirements of the men are looked after at least equal — we'll put it that way -- in comparison with the record of Persona-care. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2537

40-28 ALBERTA HANSARD May 1st 1972 As to the other services, I think the controversy there relates to the fact that Persona-care deliberately built up quite a counselling service, in particular employment counselling, and individual counselling on problems. I think they had some group counselling type of programs in regard to both alcoholism and employment opportunities. Whether or not right on the site the same or better counselling services are being maintained is something that I do not know for a fact at the moment.

I know that the intention was at the time that the counselling service — this was as of November when the operation changed back to the hands of the government — the intention was to assess the individuals who were in the employ of Persona-Care in the counselling roles and see whether or not they should be retained.

I don't know whether or not they were — that's the one difficulty I had in responding — the intent along with it at the time was that counselling services should at any event be available and that the department had them in at least two offices in Calgary, and that there was a good argument to be made for the fact that there was no need to create another class of counsellors in that particular facility. MR. R.

SPEAKER: Judge O'Byrne recommended that for the hostels and a number of other groups that are concerned about these people, that a classification system be established; and that rehabilitation and placement of these people into employment be carried out. Do you support that program at the present time? Number two, is your intention, as I have perceived from your answer, only to provide for these men food and shelter, and what happens to them after that doesn't matter? MR. CRAWFORD: I meant to indicate that the most important thing was the providing of the short term physical support that these men require.

In regard to leaving it at that and providing them with no other service, I don't think that could be said to be the policy because of what I had said earlier, that the department in both the north and south Calgary regional offices has qualified workers available to work with these men as well as with anyone else in the community. The real question was whether or not the facility should build up its own other area of counselling.

Now with reference to the recommendations of Judge O'Byrne that you asked about, I would have to say that I don't think that the question of classification and rehabilitation into work, in respect to transient men, is any more important than it is in respect to other people who are on some form of assistance.

My concern is that when the government has to committ resources to, say the area of rehabilitation through to finding employment, that they locate the most likely members of the community to commit their prior resources to and that very often these are heads of households located for a period of years throughout the province.

However generous it might be on the part of the taxpayers of Alberta to attempt to perform a like service also for transient men, many of whom are not from Alberta in the first place, is where this area of question arises, and where I have little difficulty in saying I think the priority belongs in the employment opportunities program that relates to employables who are, hopefully, heads of families in the province. MR. R. SPEAKER: In light of what the hon. minister has said, — Number one — has the department placed a number of these men?

If so, is the rate equal or better than the rate of placement by Persona-care? Number two, on a cost-benefit basis or cost-effectiveness basis, was the cost of the program in the prior year, when it was under the Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2538

May 1st 1 9 7 2 ALBERTA HANSARD 40-29 government, more expensive per-man per-day than it was during the last year on a per-man per-day basis? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, on the cost-benefit, I suppose it depends on whose statistics you take. It seems to me that the complaint registered by the department officials in regard to the Persona-care operation was that a very large number of people had been attracted to the facility because of what I might refer to as the life style there.

It was a good thing to be able to come to Calgary and not have to leave too soon, although the benefit was supposed to be mainly for transients. The Persona-care people, although their cost per-man per-day, if I'm correct, was slightly less, the overall cost was a great deal more. They went so far, I am told, as to double-deck all the beds in the place and were running quite a successful hotel.

It was being fully paid for, of course, by all of the people that the hon. ladies and gentlemen in the House represent, who were taxed for the purpose of this extravagant operation, the cost of which rose to the neighbourhood of slightly over half a million dollars for the year in the Persona-care operation; up from the neighbourhood, as I recall it, of $300,000 in the previous year. It was that figure that attracted my attention.

If it means that to get the figure more in line with past experience -- and the Edmonton experience by the way — if, to get it more in line, meant that some people might not find it quite so pleasant to go there, that it might occasionally happen that someone would be asked to leave and that sort of thing, after abusing the period that a transient is usually looked after then I don't think that's a bad development at all.

I think that I would like to relate it back to the overall question of priorities and say that, as sorry as one may feel for a transient man, from wherever he may have come, and who perhaps has a long history of alcoholism — when I went to visit the one in Calgary there was a gentleman (if I can use that expression) asleep on the lawn in front of the building at 3:00 o'clock in the afternoon and a bottle, empty, sufficiently at hand so that I wasn't led to the conclusion that he was there because he was sunbathing in November.

I'm not criticizing all of the men who come there just because of incidents like this, but every member of this House knows that that's a very typical case of the type of person who ends up there, and that the hostel in Calgary isn't the first one that he's been in, in all likelihood, and that when he leaves there he will probably go to another one. As I say, how sorry one may feel is quite another matter from the extent to which, in my view, the taxpayers of Alberta should be called upon to give support. I hope that doesn't sound too harsh.

As to placements, I'll have to seek that information and bring it to the hon. gentlemen. The question, specifically, was whether or not the placements compared favourably, I believe, in the department's experience in the placing of quests into employment, as was the case during the time Persona-care had it. I don't know the answer to that question and I'll be glad to seek the information, and presuming it's available, to provide it. MR. R. SPEAKER: Well, Mr. Chairman, a couple of comments.

First of all, number one, I certainly didn't intend to get into any area of making reflections upon the type of people in these institutions, as the hon. minister has just done in some of his comments. I don't think the thing we should be talking about here in the Legislature, is the type of person that we're serving, with certain insinuations that these men haven't capabilities to do certain things. I think we have a responsibility as a public, or as legislators, to make sure that Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2539

40-30 ALBERTA HANSARD May 1st 1972 certain basic needs of some type of people are met. I think this is what we attempt to do in the hostels that were established for these men. Secondly, I take exception to the hon. minister where he is trying to insinuate to the Assembly that certain types of mis- expenditure or mis-handling was done by Persona-care. I don't mind the hon. minister, if he wants to say it directly, to say it, but to insinuate it by certain comments certainly isn't appreciated very much by myself.

I think one of the things the hon. minister has tried to indicate was, here was a large establishment into which transient men could come and go and have quite a free-wheeling type of reception. If we examine the statistics correctly, we can well recognize that the hostel here in Edmonton had certain increases in the number of people that were in that particular institution, and used the services of the institution, and during the past year we had some very significant increases in unemployment.

But even in saying those things, I think that to assess this very fairly, there are two things to talk about with the hon. minister. I had to make those comments first of all, just to react to what was said by him. There are two things that I would like to discuss with him on a higher level, or plane, and as positive as possible, without getting into any type of insinuations. First of all, I think the two questions we should look at here are as follows.

Number one, the concept of the actual contract that was established with this innovation project and, secondly, the concept of the type of assessment that was done on the project. I felt that in initiating this project as minister, that there was a lot of benefit in locking at using the techniques of "request for proposal". Benefits in that you could hear from many sectors of the community that don't get a chance to voice their ideas or their opinions as to how they would like to operate a certain responsibility in the community.

In this situation it happened to be a social responsibility, and as the hon. minister well mentioned, that traditionally the free enterprise approach, or this type of concept, is usually used in other areas in tendering buildings, or looking at projects that can have a more definable set of terms of reference. I felt that certainly, as the minister at that time, that it was time we broke loose from some of those traditional bonds and had a look at something different. And certainly I was willing to make some assumption and try and see if this approach would work.

I'd have to say that within government I certainly recognized that the people you hire, good as they may be, certainly haven't all of the answers, or the best answer at all times, to our social problems. I felt we could help through this technique, and particularly where you could ask people at the community levels to come in so they could have a look at their own problem, submit a proposal, and give it a try. And I would like to discuss in light of that, this "request for proposal" concept.

Does the government feel that utilizing the private sector in the social programs is out and should be forgotten at this time? That's number one, and number two; why wasn't a more adequate and more in-depth type of assessment done of this particular proposal? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, I have noted what the hon. member had asked about earlier here, but because I was having a simultaneous conversation at my left ear as I was listening to him with my right ear, I wonder if he would just restate those last two points again? Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2540

May 1st 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 40-31 MR. R. SPEAKER: The number one item that I would like to examine with the hon. minister is the question with regard to the "request for proposals". Does he — and that means the government -- support the concept of "request for proposal" for social contracts at this time? The subquestion would be, will there be other innovative projects in the social area trying this concept? The second question then, will there be an adequate assessment? I don't feel adequate steps have been taken by yourself to this point to assess new approaches to programs with social contracts. MR.

CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, I don't think there is any doubt when the hon. member points out that this type of program was innovative, that that is so; that it was a break from traditional concepts is certainly true.

In the sense of being willing to break from traditional concepts in the area of social services, or indeed in all areas, I think that progress in general requires all of us, I am sure all hon. members feel the same way, to take the steps which they feel will get the best results in any situation, whether it begins as an experiment and we learn from that and go one way or the other afterwards, or maybe confirm, through an experiment, past experience. Breaks from tradition are quite welcome and something that I hope to see quite a lot of in the years of this government's service to the people.

I think that we will stand up pretty well in that connection. The social contracts though, the specific question, I think the short answer is no. I don't foresee, in the area of social services, that this type of contract will be used. I think that in many areas of government, of course, a "request for proposal" has long been used.

Every tender, in effect, is a request for a proposal, and I know that when the hon. member speaks of request for proposal, he is relating it in particular to the area of social services, so I won't go into what other areas there may be for this type of request for industry to get into a certain area of government. But in respect to social services, I would say no. As to the type of assessment . . . MR. R. SPEAKER: May I ask a specific question?

What the minister is saying then, that the "request for proposal" for social contracts will not be used in establishing contracts with non-profit groups and profit groups in the community? MR. CRAWFORD: I think a distinction could be made in time, in regard to non- profit groups. My thoughts were directed to this specific one as a type of undertaking. As all of the members know, that particular one was a private corporation which was established, of course, for the purpose, presumably, of operating at a profit if they possibly could. So I hope that clarifies that.

I am a little bit leary of going into social services by contract, but I wouldn't rule out non-profit associations entirely at this point. I might add that my own exposure to this particular round included the proposals presented at a public meeting here in Edmonton, when several non-profit organizations did make presentations in regard to the one in Edmonton, including organizations such as the Salvation Army.

So I wouldn't want to say that the time wouldn't come when the purchase of the service of a non-profit organization such as that wouldn't be ruled out, because I don't want to rule that type of thing out from future possibilities. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2541

40-32 ALBERTA HANSARD May 1st 1972 MR. R. SPEAKER: I’d like to complete this Mr. Chairman. Just to understand your policy, then, would you say that your approach to the expansion or meeting of social needs will be a direct expansion of the departmental organization? MR.

CRAWFORD: The short answer is yes, and the only qualification I want to make is the same one I made a moment ago, and that is that in the non-profit area, it could well be that we would move into purchasing services by contract from a non-profit organization, but the additional step of tendering for it, which is the essence of the request for proposal, may or may not be an ingredient.

The way the request for proposal was done, with the setting out of certain guidelines and asking for feed-back on it, and then assessing the best overall proposal, it may be that if that procedure was followed, a contract with a non-profit organization could result. But I think it more likely that the government would actually have a program in a certain area and would contract with a non-profit organization presumably a well established one — for that type of service, in order that the service wouldn’t be expanded solely as a result of the growth of government establishment, as your question asked. MR.

FRENCH: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the minister, in view of the reduction of 18 salaried positions in this vote, is there any change contemplated for Youngstown in the next year? MR. CRAWFORD: Any change in what over the next year? MR. FRENCH: Any change in the operation of Youngstown Home? MR. CRAWFORD: Youngstown Home? MR. FRENCH: Yes. MR. CRAWFORD: I believe not — not in the next year. MR. FRENCH: Do you contemplate a change in the following year, then? MR. CRAWFORD: We're not talking about the following year at the present time. MR.

FRENCH: Probably I should give the House a little background on Youngstown Home, so that the people in the legislature will be aware of the wonderful service that's being performed in Youngstown Home. I would like to go back to — this will only take a very few minutes, Mr. Chairman — 1918 or 1919 when the federal government was winning a war with agriculture. At that particular time a number of agricultural schools were built in the province, including Youngstown. The building at Youngstown is basically the same design Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2542

May 1st 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 40-33 as the agricultural schools at Vermilion, at Olds, and other places in the province. For the ones who have not seen Youngstown Home, you'll know the type of building it is. Over the years this particular building has stood very well, and during the depression years, in the special areas, the special areas used Youngstown Home as a sort of relief centre. At that particular time it was the responsibility of the municipalities to provide for their residents if they required assistance, which was called welfare at that time.

Following that we had a number of senior citizens' homes built in the province as well as other institutions or homes for people, with the result that, I would say eight or nine years ago, the number of residents or guests in Youngstown Home decreased to a very small number. At that particular time they were only looking after the residents of the special areas. So the decision was made that here is a building worth at least $1 million to replace.

If you were to accept that figure to replace the agricultural building at Vermilion or at Olds, or if you could replace them for something in the neighbourhood of $1 million, then you could say the value of this building would be $1 million. Here we have a building that is in good shape structurally, and is providing an excellent service to 50 or 51 residents — at least that was the figure at Christmastime. These people have been brought in from all over the province; they are doing an excellent job. As you possibly know, many of these people have an alcoholic problem.

In Youngstown there is only one hotel, so it is quite easy to solve some of the alcoholic problems when you have only one hotel, because when somebody gets in there and is in there for one or two, the bartender can say, "move along" and these sort of things, and we are able to control it. To the best of my knowledge, there has been no problem with a single resident in Youngstown since the department took it over a number of years ago. I believe there was one chap who had a bit of a problem, and he was moved to another institution.

Basically, most of these guests come in from other places where they had been a problem. We are able to look after them in Youngstown. There is lots of fresh air, good environment, they are away from some of the larger centres, they are doing an excellent job. And before any decision is ever made to change Youngstown Home, I trust the hon. minister will remember some of the comments I have made here this afternoon. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Chairman, I am pleased that the hon. minister did make the distinction between private organizations and private profit-making organizations.

It is a very important distinction to be made. While I don't agree with the role of farming out social development programs to profit- making organizations, I think that on the other hand there is a role for non-profit making private organizations in innovative social development programs. The one thing -- and perhaps following up on my original question to you — the reason I would like to see some sort of assessment done on this Calgary effort is relating to the counselling service.

It seems to me, if I recollect your answer, that there was an increase of approximately $200,000, part of it due to some frills you mention, but no doubt part of it was due to the counselling service that the firm provided. I am wondering to what extent there is any assessment of the success of that counselling service — whether they were successful in placing people.

While I don't think it should be farmed out to profit making concerns, it occurs to me that there might be some strong arguments for bringing in organizations of the people Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2543

40-39 ALBERTA HANSARD May 1st 1972 themselves. I am thinking of groups like Humans On Welfare, who can work perhaps more closely with the people, rather than professional social workers. There is a problem, when you bring in some of the best government people there are, nevertheless there is a gulf there that is difficult for them to bridge.

Sometimes people who have gone through the experience themselves — I am thinking of one person in particular, who, in my judgment has done quite an excellent job in this field, who has gone through the mill himself, has rehabilitated himself, and who, I would judge, is in a better position to give sensible counselling than perhaps a professional social worker who might have half a dozen degrees, but who just isn't sensitive in the same way to the problems.

That is one of the reasons why I think it might be worthwhile if we had some kind of overall assessment of the counselling success or failure of the Calgary effort. MR. KING: As someone who is on the board of a non-profit institution, I say this, for the benefit of the hon. member for Calgary McCall, so he doesn't feel constrained to ask questions about it later. I am on the board of Bissell Centre which presently administers a contract on behalf of the Department of Health and Social Development, relative to the operation of the single men's hostel. I'll resign if you want me to .

I've been involved in this for some time, and there are a couple of brief points I would like to make. The first one is that I very much appreciate the fact that the hon. minister is apparently not enamoured of the "request for proposal" concept, because I think it has some very real problems that have been demonstrated here over the past couple of years, and in the United States, with the Department of Health, Education and Welfare.

The second point that I wanted to make is that in the last three or four years, apparently, the attempt of the Department of Health and Social Development to co-operate with private non-profit or prefit agencies has been very much limited by the inability to develop any kind of an evaluative process or evaluative criteria. I can remember having meetings with the hon. member opposite, Mr. R.

Speaker, when he was minister of the department, and I know how much this was a problem in terms of the Pineview Home for unwed mothers, for example, where a private non-profit agency had been for some number of years giving a good service to the province in a particular field.

But a point was reached when it became necessary to ask, in terms of the number of people that were being served, and in terms of the expense of the service that was being provided to them, whether or not this was better done by a private non-profit agency in this case, or, if the cost was going to have to be absorbed anyway, it could better be done by the Department of Health and Social Development within the mainstream of their organization. He and I were on different sides of the fence in that particular case.

If he occupies the same position as he did then, so do I now, so we are still on opposite sides of the fence.

But most important I think, is the fact that in the last 2 1/2 years since we had those discussions, there doesn't appear to have been any development, either in the department, or I might say in private agencies, like any of the Community Fund agencies, for developing a process whereby it could be judged whether or not an agency at some future date is providing the service it was originally contracted to provide; whether or not that service is still necessary for the constituency; and whether or not the cost, which is almost surely going to escalate, is still related in a real way to the priority that need has in the community as a whole.

And both of these things, I think have been very closely related to the operation of the single men's hostel and the desire to put it out with an RFP Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2544

May 1st 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 40-35 either to a non-profit or a profit agency, and I think that this problem has been a focal point in both Edmonton and Calgary. One thing that really interests me — you may have answered this question before I came in, if so, I apologize — are there any plans under way, either immediately or for the intermediate future, for breaking down the single men's hostel into smaller units; that is abandoning the present location, where everybody is served out of the one facility, and setting up smaller homes or smaller centres of accommodation to handle fewer men in one area. MR.

CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, the answer to that last question is, there are no such present plans. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Chairman, the second part of my question to the minister was with regard to evaluation. The problem I was having earlier was not to broaden the thing to total evaluation of social program. I certainly agree with the minister, one of the concerns to me was spending money not only within the department, but also in contracting with agencies. It was very difficult to assess actually whether these agencies were meeting some objectives or not.

Within the department incremental increases of so many dollars occurred, and the same programs carried on. This was one of the basic reasons that I wanted to try the request for proposal for social contract as a pilot project, and made that recommendation to Cabinet. What we attempted to do, and you have already indicated this, Mr. Minister, that in the beginning you attempted to establish some objectives, objectives which were as definable as possible, that would be reached within the period, with regard to that contract, which was one year.

Now this was attempted, certain things did happen, and I think my concern was that that pilot project was not completed in its most meaningful manner, when you didn't complete, as a minister, a meaningful evaluation. I felt that was the point at which we could tell whether this approach was really meaningful or not. I would have to say myself that certainly I had doubts, and I indicated that to a number of meetings and groups that I talked to. But whether those doubts were there or not was not really that significant. It was whether there was something we could learn from this new approach.

I wasn't a drumbeater at the time, particularly for profit making groups, or non-profit making groups, or whoever they may be. It was to try and come to grips with this whole expanding cost, this increase in cost we are facing every year. Incremental increases without really being able to define what we were doing and what objectives we had in mind. I thought possibly this might be one way to come to grips with some portion of it. I would have to say with regard to the hostel itself, I'm not so sure that that was a good area to select in the first place.

I indicated a little earlier that I was concerned because you were making some reflection upon the men. I felt in even using this project that the type of clientele that was going to use the pilot project could overshadow the real thing that we're trying to get at. I think it did in this particular project. Some other things did too, certainly some of the people and personnel that carried out the project had some reflection on your decision. Maybe that was unfortunate or otherwise. But those are some of the things.

I would appreciate very much, that the hon. minister, for his own concern and for our concern, may carry out a more formal assessment of the merits or possibilities that were in that approach — there were some. One of the things Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2545

40-36 ALBERTA HANSARD May 1st 1972 that came to my attention was the input of people that would have never, ever came near that type of a facility otherwise. Persons from the uptown

section of Calgary -- business men, Chamber of Commerce — persons that really had no human concern, just none at all. They were able to come down there. They took

part in some of the rehabilitation programs that went on. Business people, the people that were in Persona-care I’m sure would never even have gotten involved in a program like that unless this opportunity became available. I think these are aspects that we should look at, and look at on a very objective basis. I think you'll find as a minister, as your experience goes along, that certain costs in the social area — and if your policy is as stated a little earlier — where you feel that expanding the department is the answer to it, you’ll find that expansion grows very rapidly and becomes almost uncontrollable.

The only thing is that within public service there's a certain shelter that is there, and a certain shelter that often isn't easy to get at. So I urge the minister to have a look at that, and maybe reassess it, even at this point in time, so that maybe some capability, or new approach, or something different, can come about. As I observe what's going to happen in the next few years, the amount of work that government does with people certainly isn't going to decrease, but it's going to increase, and any steps we initiate now I think are very, very significant. MR.

KING: Just a couple of quick comments following on that. I agree with the hon. Member for Little Bow about a real problem having been created in attempting to use the operation of the single mens' hostel as the experiment to judge the RFP concept. I think in the original submission that was made by M & M Systems Research, one of their very strong recommendations was that in experimenting with the RFP concept, you should do it in areas of social concern that involve as few human problems as possible, initially, in order not to get it too complicated. I think they suggested housing as one.

The single men's hostel is the other end of the spectrum from their recommendation. The second thing that I would like to say, as one who drafted a proposal for the operation of the single men's hostel here, is that with respect to the RFP it was very explicit about the physical conditions which it wanted delivered to the men in the hostel. It was very explicit about the costs it was willing to pay for this delivery.

But when it came to social programs, when it came to anything which was devoted to changing the social environment, it was both very ambiguous and very niggardly in the amount of money it was willing to allow to a proposal for the development of social programs in the RFP for the single men's hostel. And I think that was one of the areas where the difference between the application of an RFP to a social program, and an engineering or physical sciences program, was most clear.

The complete inability to set out or to categorize the kinds of social changes that you wanted to see take place in that situation, and how much you were willing to pay in order to have it take place. The third point that I would like to make very quickly is that the RFP concept doesn't take any account of the changes that may take place in society as a whole, in terms of the priorities that they have for programs.

And this is one of the reasons why, in contrast to the RFP, I would like to see some kind of an evaluation developed whereby private agencies could run programs so that there would be built into the running of these programs some kind of a determination about how much society wanted this program to continue. A home for single girls run by a church would be an example, whereby an indirect determination of how much society wanted that home to be or to Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2546

May 1st 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 40-37 function would be indicated by the amount of money that the church or the non-profit society might put into the operation of the homes. One thing you might consider would be some kind of matching grants or proration grants. But when you have an RFP where the government, for a contract, will pay out 100% of the cost, including the escalation in years to come, there's no opportunity for determining, at staged intervals, whether or not society still considers the task involved in that contract to be important in terms of what the government is doing.

This, I think, was another one of the failures of the RFP concept as opposed to what the Roman Catholic Church was trying to do with Pineview or any other examples. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Chairman, one final question on this section. A number of various private agencies initiate programs. Would it be the intention of the hon. minister, when these programs get into financial difficulty or reach a certain point where they wish to expand across the province or on a broader basis, would it be the policy of the department to take these programs into the department and integrate them into their on-going programs? MR.

CRAWFORD: I can answer that in one word, Mr. Chairman. I'd say no. MR. TAYLOR: I want to make just one or two comments. I am a little bit alarmed — unless I've missed some of the comments — about putting a dollar sign on human beings. Because whether a person becomes an inebriate, or a drunkard, or a drug fiend, they're still human beings. I think we make a mistake if we put a dollar sign on their head as being less value than somebody else who didn't happen to become an inebriate or a drug fiend.

My experience with single men's hostels is that many of these men are victims of our economic system, and perhaps you and I, perhaps any hon. member of this House, might find himself in the same condition at some time in the future if we are subjected to the same economic conditions as many of these people. And I feel that when we try to put a dollar sign on them we make a very, very grave mistake. That's why I am not a strong supporter of the request for proposals in this type of legislation.

I have no objection as an experiment, as a pilot project, but I think that where you're trying to save money at the expense -- or make profit -- at the expense of human beings that it becomes diametrically wrong as far as I am concerned. I like the approach of the non-profit organizations. I don't think you can find greater dedication anywhere than you find in the Grace Hospitals operated by the Salvation Army, the senior citizens' homes operated by the Salvation Army, and in the hospitals operated by the Catholic nuns.

This is complete dedication — not for money, but for service — and I think the public service should try to emulate that particular type of dedication to the greatest possible degree. One other point I find nauseating in connection with this type of vote — single men's hostels -- is where some people want to deal with them in a blanket form. Each one is an individual, and I think rehabilitation — what can be done to help this man reach the potential that he himself would like to have reached had he not gone through these harrowing experiences — is the objective.

I think the main objective in this type of program that should be drummed into the welfare workers, is to rehabilitate these people. Treat them like human beings and rehabilitate them to the greatest possible degree. If there are those who are taking advantage of the system and simply through laziness, don't want to work, then they should be Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2547

40-38 ALBERTA HANSARD May 1st 1972 treated with an iron hand. But those who have gone through harrowing experiences that have brought them to that particular state in life, I think there should be understanding and help given to them at our single men's hostels, as well as meals and a bed. Appropriation 2522 total agreed to $1,393,510 Appropriation 2523 Single Women's Hostels MR. CHAMBERS: Mr. Chairman, I have a question here. I notice that this item is roughly 5% of the preceding item, and I wondered if that ratio reflects the years gone by.

In other words, has it always been in this ratio, or if, in fact, the appropriation or the estimate does really reflect the demand today for single women's hostels? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, I think it reflects the demand. For various reasons I suppose, there has not been the requirement for society to provide as many facilities in any way for transient women as there has been for transient men, and as far as the situation in Edmonton is concerned for example, which I have had more opportunity to review than in the balance of the province, it seems to me that this area is well served.

And I say that with the caution that I think must always be used when one says 'well-served'. It relates to the sort of remarks the hon. Member for Drumheller was making in regard to the need for compassion and understanding not be entirely the result of their own failings but can be a combination of circumstances. I'm not suggesting that the arrangements that are made for single transient women are luxurious in any way, but it appears that no real hardship is being suffered by these who are using the facilities, and there is no shortage of them. MRS.

CHICHAK: I was just wondering, I would like to ask the hon. minister, if there, in fact, hasn't really been a demand, or is it that it hasn't been recognized? It seems to me that when you look at the problems that exist in court, and the number of women who are in jail, then I certainly think they need assistance and direction. To me it doesn't suggest that there should be such a vast difference in the demand or the need, and I'm wondering is it that recognition hasn't come about, and the problem hasn't really been looked into, or is it that the women just don't need the services? MR.

CRAWFORD: Well, I maintain, Mr. Chairman, that the need is being filled. There are institutions, I don't know if they should be called institutions -- facilities — which are available, using again the City of Edmonton as an example, where I know the policy of those facilities is that no person is ever turned away. And all I could say to my good friend from Edmonton Norwood is that if some ladies occasionally find themselves in jail, then they probably have every reason appropriate to their case for being there.

This may be a new move in the area of women's liberation, that jails will not in the future be solely the habitat of us men. MR. KING: I feel that I have to pursue this for just a moment because I agree with the hon. Member for Edmonton Norwood. I think, first of all, that I should say I appreciate the recognition that the government has given to the position of women just recently. Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2548

May 1st 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 40-39 I know, for a fact, that a single women’s hostel in Edmonton was operating on a hand-to-mouth existence until last fall or this spring, and that their existence has been regularized because of an agreement they have come to with the Department of Health and Social Development. I think that is to our credit.

I think at the same time, though, that there are a number of reasons why it is very likely that the number of transient women in Edmonton or Calgary, or any other major centre, is going to increase, probably pretty significantly in the next couple of years, and that is something we should consider down the road. Secondly, while the operation of the single women’s overnight shelter in Edmonton has been regularized, they are still providing far less in the way of service to the women who go there, than is provided to the men who go to the overnight shelter or to the single men's hostel.

The final point is, of course, that while there are a number of private agencies that provide services to men who are transients the Salvation Army and Bissell Centre are two examples -- there are no institutions which have a long history of having provided this service to women. There are small ones that are springing up providing service to a limited number of people, but they are not providing as much service as has been available to men in the past. I think, in the future, these are all things that we should keep in mind in terms of doubling this appropriation next year.

Appropriation 2523 total agreed to $ 69,790 Agreed to without debate: Appropriation 2524 Maternity Homes $ 95,680 Appropriation 2510 Social Development Services Administration 174,450 Appropriation 2511 Public Assistance Administration 351,510 Appropriation 2512 Public Assistance - Basic Assistance MR. LEE: I just want to ask one question about one of the difficulties that very often arises with those people who try to make a transition from social development onto the work force. I am thinking of those people now that undertake some type of post-secondary or pre-post- secondary education.

Under the present system, a number of people, if they are on social allowance, can go into, for instance, Alberta vocational centres and can take a course without being cut off their allowance. In other words, they probably have two choices; they can remain on the social allowance, or they can go under an allowance through vocational education under the Department of Advanced Education. A good example of this, once again, was the Priority Employment Program this year, where people were expected to stay on social assistance while they were taking the course.

However, this was an exceptional case and I am just wondering if your department has any plans for, say, those people who want to go onto a longer course, such as a university degree? At the present time, in order to go to university or take a two-year course, they are cut off allowance completely. It appears to me that this is rather a negative treatment of persons who want to get off this allowance, and in all probability, if this weren't given to them while they were going to school, they would stay on the allowance anyway.

I am just wondering if your department is looking into more long-term continuation of assistance for more long-term training programs? Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2549

40-40 ALBERTA HANSARD May 1st 1972 MR. CRAWFORD: The short answer is that as a the result of one brief that I received in the last couple of months, that area is under study. It opens up a rather difficult matter, of course. The objective of having someone better himself in order that he will be off public assistance is one that should be universally supported. But whether or not the public will want, in general terms, to support university education, I think is questionable. Therefore, any guidelines for that sort of thing is something that any program would have to delineate very carefully.

There is a system of loans available for university, and it would indeed mean that a person would have to support himself through university in order to receive the education. Graduating directly from public assistance to the university, where both are operated at the expense of the public, to me is a difficult matter to recommend to the public as a whole. MR. ZANDER: Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to make a comment on the public assistance that is given to people.

I do believe that in some cases I know in the past — where public assistance has been asked for from the local authority, they were turned down because they had more assets than some of the people who were not on social assistance, and then they reapplied to the department in Edmonton and consequently got assistance from the department, although they had jobs available to go to. The only thing I wanted to say at this time, Mr. Chairman, is that I think we have to come down to a lower level of administration.

In the area that I represent, which is something like 90 to 150 miles away from the City of Edmonton, the administration is made from the local North Edmonton centre. In most cases, and I have to say that I've sat there many times in the office listening to the social worker making his recommendations and asking questions of the social assistance recipient, and I overheard the conversation quite often, and the inspection was done by telephone. I think we have to return some of the responsibility of looking after the social welfare to the local level.

They should be screened at the local level, rather than being looked after from out of the City of Edmonton. I think we'll have to go in that direction. Because in my opinion, at least, from the many years that I've been on council, I've felt that in at least 50% of the cases, social assistance was granted in the Edmonton office, where it was not granted in the local office at the local level. We have many people that know the circumstances of people,

whereas the social worker that works out of the City of Edmonton is not able, is not capable, to know. We know in our area that most of the time the people could well get along without social assistance, but they're simply given social assistance. I can give you one example. There was a farmer that had a full line of machinery, he had five head of cattle, he had his bins full of grain; he had hay of all kinds and description. We refused to give him social assistance or temporary assistance on the basis that he could at least get a job.

We offered him a job on the county level, and he refused to go because it was 13 miles removed from his home and we would not pay mileage. Consequently, the man went into the City of Edmonton, and the first thing we knew, we had him on social assistance.

I believe that if we restore some of this responsibility to the local level of government, rather than take it away and administer it from the larger centres, say, Calgary, Edmonton, Wetaskiwin, Camrose, I think we're going to get a better chance to screen the applicants, and we're going to cut the costs of public assistance, because certainly in this year it's increasing by 9.5%. I believe if we restore this responsibility back to the people who know the people, rather than just have it handed out by a social worker from the City of Edmonton, I think this is the only way that we'll cut down the costs.

Alternate page number, consecutive for the 17th Legislature, 1st Session: page 2550

May 1st 1972 ALBERTA HANSARD 40-41 I hope that this Assembly will certainly look forward to this being restored to the local people for screening because I'm sure that we could cut down at least 50% of those people receiving social assistance, and give them jobs on the local level, rather than feeding them from the public purse. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. BENOIT: I have to agree with what the hon. member just said with regard to that, but I have two other questions, and I'll ask them one at a time. With regard to the burial expenses, since burial is the most expensive way of disposing of the remains of a body, are

Document details

Collection	Alberta — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	19720501
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	L17 S1 19720501 1430 01 han.pdf
Language	en
Format	json
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	321fb90f5b53f87b23b652bcd1d6eefef1538385

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (json).