VOL. 2 PRELIHINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, MAY 29, l9eO NO. 52

May 29, 1980 The House met at 3:00P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Tape No. 1899 Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. SD - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement on behalf of the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment (Mrs. H. Newhook) 1who is unavoidably absent this afternoon. 'l'he government is today releasing the report of the Environmental Assessment Board appointed to conduct public hearings i~to the BRINEX proposal to develop a uranium mine at the Kitts-Michelin site in Labrador. The members of the Board were Mr. c.w.

Powell, Chairman; Mr. Hudson Davis, and Rev. Francis Buckle. The pubii ·c hearings were conducted to record the reaction of the people in the area to the Environmental Impact Assess!M!nt Statement submitted by BRINEX ~n May of 1979. The Board conducted its hearings in December of 1979 in the communities of Happy Valley, Goose Bay, Northwest River, Sheshatshit, ~ovik and Postville and heard submissions by a number of intervening groups and individuals. On behalf of the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environme r!t, I would like to thank the Board for their services and for the comprehensiveness of the report.

I would also express our appreciation to the large number of members of the public who indicated such interest in the proposed project and participated in the hearings. The Board has identified a number of areas of the public concern in which additional information would be required. However, the area identified in the report, which requires most attention, is that of the management and permanent containment of t!J.e mine '~astes or tailings. This is a highly technical and complex subject on which a good deal of further information is required.

The subject of waste disposal is one about which there has been much controversy in 4978

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1899 SD - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: ·--- the uranium mining industry and the gove~.ent is, therefore, most anxious that it can be assured that there be compl~te environmental security in the matter. The government has, therefore, accepted the recommendation of the Board which states that: "a cleveloprrent licence for the Kitts-Michelin project be withheld until BR1~~X can show that it can and will safely and permanently dispose of the radioactive waste from its proposed mines and mill." I have copies of the statement here now, Mr.

Speaker, which will be available to hen. members and the reports are available and will be distributed over the next number of moments. MR. G. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. G. WARREN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, first I would like to say from the outset that I am indeed Fleased to see that this government has accepted the recommendations by the Powell Commission.

However, . it is a sad clay for Happy Valley_":' Goes~ Bay, which very much ·was depending upon BRINEX going ahead with this project because all in all there were probably 200 or 300 jobs that would have bee::t created in this area. However, I think this government has seen the light that anything that is going to be damaging, in particular to h=an beings and the future generations - 4979

May 29, 1980 'rape No. 1900 EL - 1 MR. G. WARREN: I am. thinking in particular of Ma.lc'kovik Postville where this mine wa~ going to be located. In the close proximity of those two communities where the main tributaries, the rivers and the majority of the residents in those two communities were relying on the fisheries for a ll'eans of living.

And I am c:;:uite pleased to see that this government has taken the recommendations that the Board has stated ~d I hope that this last sentence that says,•until Brinex can show that it can and will be safely and permanently: I would like to reiterate that from those public hearings, Brinex were unable to show beyond a reasonable doubt that the tailings in particular were going to be taken care of in a proper manner.

So I iUD quite pleased that this government has seen fit to stop any further development in the Ki~ts-Michelin uranium project for the time being and I hope that in future any such project of this magnitude would be taken care of by this means. MR. SPEAXER (Simms) : Are there any further statements? The hen. the Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the De- partment~ Observations and Report to the ~uditor General for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1979. This is compiled by the Internal Audit Division of the Department of Finance and there are copies available for hon. members.

ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the member for St. Mary's - The Capes. MR. 0, HANCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a couple of questions for the Minister of Transportation 3nd Commur.ications. As the minister is aware, Mr. Speaker, most sec~etaries do make errors in typing, and I know mine does and I c~ speak for most members on this sid• 4980

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1900 EL - 2 MR. D. HANCOCK: of the House as well as the other side. Going through this list, Mr. Speaker, I am just wondering if there was a typing error made when it came to St. Mary's - ~e capes because I cannot find anything on this project or the road projects for the Province for this year for St. Mary's- ~he Capes. I am wondering if they are deliberately omitted MR. SPEAKER(Simms): and Communications. MR. C. BRETT: or if the secretary made an error in typing? The hon. the Minister of Transportation Mr.

Speaker, the hon. member for Kilbride (R.Aylward) just asked me the same question as I walked into the House. There was no typographical error. It is just that there was no money allocated for that district or the district of Kilbride this year. MR. D. HANCOCK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for St. Mary's - 'l'.he Capes. MR. D. HANCOClt: I would lilte to rellli.nd the member for Kilbride that he has not got lOS miles of gravel road in his nistrict. If he has,I ~ sure as heck not aware of it. I do not know what I was going to say for a supplementary now, Mr.

Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. HANCOCK: • MR. SPEAKER: amount of pause. MR. H.liNCOCK: lOS miles of Hear, hear After last night we are all la~:ghing. After last night - I will allow the hon. !~~ember a certain There is, as I pointed out, Mr. Speaker, gravel road in my district and 4981

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1901 ow - 1 MR. D. HANCOCK: school children in that area have to travel over a distance of forty to fifty miles a day of dirt road to get to school each day the school season is open. And I am wondering, Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact what Mr. Crosbie said a few days, and the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) ,that the_feds in Ottawa are playing politics with the federal seats here in New­ foundland1if this government is doing the same bloody thing as the Minister of Energy and Mr. Crosbie in Ottawa 1 is the government here doing the sama thing as they are being accused of? MR. S.

NEARY: Playing politics with the roads programme. MR. SPEAKER. (Simms): The hon. Minister of Trans- portation and Communications. MR. C. BRETT: what the question was. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. C. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure He asked me if - Oh, oh! I gather what he said, Mr. Speaker, was am I doing the same thing that Mr. Crosbie is accusing somebody of doing in Ottawa. know what - Now I do not MR. D. HANCOCK: Mr. Barry is accusing - MR. C, BRETT: I do not know what Mr. Barry is accusing somebody in Ottawa of doing. how I can answer that question really. I do not know MR. D.HANCOCK: A final supplementary, Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. member for St. Mary's - The Capes. MR. D. HANCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The simple question was, Mr. Speaker, are you playing politics with this issue? That is all I asked.I cannot get a straight answer. .I would like to wonder, Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 4982

May 29, 1980 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) MR. D. HANCOCK: Tape No. 1901 DW - 2 Ord~r , please! A final supplementary, Mr . Speaker. I would like to know how mnch of this $58.6 million is act~ally provincial money? That is pretty straightforward. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Trans- portation and Communications. MR. C. BRETT: If I had a calculator I could come up with the exact figures.

But there is $15 million, that is the provincial programme, that is all provincial money; the Trans-Canada Highway funds, there is $18 million and 75 per cent of that is being p~id for by the Province; for the remainder of the $58 million there is DREE and DREE is 90/10, I think 1most of it is anyway. MR. E. HISCOCK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. E. HISCOCK: My question is: basically during the election in which I took a great part down in st.

Mary's - The Capes and while we were there the brochure was passed out on behalf of the PC candidate and basically in that PC platform of the Premier and it said basically to 'Step forward in the Eighties' and Newfoundland was basically looking for leadership of integrity, honesty and straightforwardness and hopefully most people expected - MR. S.NEARY: And openness. MR. E. HISCOCK: - and openness - this to come from the Premier. A lot of things were said in that campaign and a lot of energy put in towards the end. But re-construction and pavement of the road from Trepassey to st.

Shotts and then Peter's River and Riverhead to Mall Bay, paving the road from Salmonier Line to Colinet and North Harbour and the road from 4983

May 28, 1980 Tape No. 1901 ow 3 MR. E. HISCOC!C: North Harbou .r to J3ran ch. l cannot understand now - AN HON. MEMBER: Do you have a question? MR • SPEAKER (Simms) : !iR. E. HISCOCK: Order, please ~ I cannot basically understand now that this was promised and surely if people iti this Province are going to have any int:eqrity in politicians, in this Province and particularly in the Premier - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. E. HIS~~ - when pror:lises are given and they are not kept. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! If the hon. member has a question I would direct him to ask his question now. 4984

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1902 NM- 1 MR. HISCOCK: The question I want to a~k the Minister of Transportation and Communications, is the Premier going to keep the promises that he has made and when can we expect these programmes to get on the go? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Transportation ~~d Communications. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, there is no one in the House who has any more faith in the Premier than I have and I am certain that if he promised, if he promised that he is going to pave the roads in St. Mary's­ The Capes 1 then he is going to do it. SOME BON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

BRETT: I do not think he says in that brcchure that he was going to do it this year. I do not believe he did. SOME HON. MEMBER: MR. HANCOCK: MR. SPEAKER: MR. THOMS: MR. HANCOCK: Oh, oh! Not off to a very good start. The hon. member for Grand Bank. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Off to a slow start. MR. THOMS: My question as well is to the Minister of Transportation and Comm~~ications. I do not know if the minister is aware - MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Mr. Speaker, if the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) has something to say about the fishing industry in this Province, why does he not stand on his feet and say it at the right time and stop yapping? MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible) down there. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I am having difficulty hearing the member ask his question. 4985

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1902 NM- 2 MR. TI!OMS: I am having difficulty hearing myself ask the question with the Minister of Fisheries yapping over there, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the - MR. NEARY: Keep your voice down, \dll yo-u , today? MR. THO~£: - is to the Minister of Transportation and Communications. At the moment there is an asphalt ~lant on the Burin Peninsula. I do not know how much longer it will be there, b~t it should not be there too much longer. And when it goes,of course,it could be another five years before we gee one back. The previous member for the district of Grand Bank made a commitment that the short

section of road between Lawn and Lourdes Cove would be paved, And that was a commitment made by the previous administration. I have the same problem, this year Grand Bank was left out altogether. But could the minister indicate to me whether or not funds could be found to complete paving the Loop Road in that area? MR. SPEAKER (Silmns): The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. BRETT: The hen. member need not wor~J, Mr. Speaker. Funds will be found some time in the future to finish that Loop Road, there is no question about that. HR. THOMS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Gr.lnd Bank. MR. T"rlOMS: Mr. Speaker, I do not mind vague anso.rlers but I wish the minister could be a littla more definite. Maybe that is what we have to look forward to, another commitment made in the district and that is in connection with the new Grand Bank bridge. The ;>lans and everything, design and everything have been done, approved, and we are waiting for funds to be committed on that one. Is there anything the minister could report in connection with the Grand Bank bridge? 4986

May 29,1980 Tape No. 1903 AH-1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The han. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. BRETT: Not in the report, Mr. Speaker, there are no funds allocated for the Grand Bank bridge this ~ear. That is all I can say. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A new question. The han. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, in view of the absence of the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) my question is to the Premier.

As he probably knows,we all heard this morning the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.Barry) on public airwaves suggesting that the reason that the synchrolift situation in St. John's is being reviewed is purely political, that Ottawa or the government is punishing this area for electing somebody not on the government side.

If one accepts that logic, is the Premier prepared to comment that that might be the kind of logic that was used by this government in refusing to extend or rebuild or reconstruct or do any work at all on the Buchans-Burgeo road this year in view of the kind of representation that has been made to this government over the years? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PEC:<FORD: Hr.

Speaker, we have many needs both in Transportation and Communications, we have needs in Municipal Affairs and Housing, we have needs in the environment,and a lot of money has to be found to deliver on public services and to provide a decent level of public services. we will do what we can and our utmost over the next three or four years to spend as much money as p9ssihle on those needed services. There are roads yet to be built and reconstructed, thEre are roads to be paved. There is a need for roads in the hon. member's district. There is a need for a lot more to be spent in all the districts of the Province.

We are trying to be fiscally responsible as a government and we will do as many public services each year as is within our limits to do. MR.FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hon.member for Windsor-Buchans. 4887

t-t_ay 29,1980 Tape No. 1_903 AH-2 MR.FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Premier for his answer. I am wondering as the Premier well knows that over the years ~he people of Buchans and that area have accepted the fact that the Province itself does not have the capability, the financial capabilities, of building that road and they know that the only prayer that we have to get that road in place in any short term is with funding from Ottawa and therefore it would have to be included in a DREE pa~kage.

So I will ask the Premier if he is prepared,because up to this point the Province have not seen fit to include that road on a priority list to DREE, would the Premier now give me his word or give the Huuse his word that he is prepared to see that road be included, a request f?r funding for that particular road, the Buchans-Burgeo road be included in the next shopping list to DREE for funding for roads and infrastructure in this Province? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): PREMIER PECKFORD: too , Mr. Speaker. MR. FLIGHT: PREMIER PECKFORD: The han. the Premier. There are many requests that way (Inaudible) refuse them.

There is the Trans-Labrador Highway, which has to get underway, whi~h has to get underway and is going to cost hundrees of millions of dollars. And I would suggest that the majority of funding for that particular highway will have to come from the federal government. There are other major secondary roads that have to be done. Burgee road has to be completed 1 it is not completed yet. There is a lot of work to be done on that road. So there are a lot of existing secondary highways and may I say primary highways like the Trans-Labrador highway which have to be given very, very high priority.

Then one must look at the existing Trans-Canada Highway and try to co~tinue to get another agreement on that because we have only got not e~en 4988

May 29, 1980, Tape 1904, Page 1 -- apb PREMIER PECKFORD: one-third, I suppose, one-quarter, one-fifth of the existing Trans-canada Highway upgraded in the last three yea~s so we need another agreement on that. So there are a whole bunch of highways which have to take very, very high priority, scrne of which I have just mentioned and others that I have not mentioned,and in due course we intend, also, to get involved in DREE programmes as they relate to the road that the hon, member mentioned. MR. FLIGHT: A final supplementary. MR. SPEAKER(Simms): A final supplementary. The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans.

MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, as the Premier well knows, most of the roads that he - I think all of the roads that he mentioned in his answer have already gone to DREE and most of them are indeed being funded by DREE. The Burgee road was practically completed by DREE and all the other roads he indicates have been funded by DREE or funds applied for. As he well knows the Buchans - Burgeo road to this point in time has not been acknowledged. Now, I would ask the Premier, has the Buchans - Burgee road been presented in a request?

Has funding been requested for that particular road under any DREE agreement up to this point in time? Has this Province ever put forward the Buchans - Burgee road for funding? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Premier. PRE!-UER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker 1 no we have not put forward that road. We will be putting forward that road after we have some of the other very major priority roads which are now underway, which cost a lot of money. As I said, the Trans-Labrador Highway, by the way, 4989

May 29, 1980, Tape 1904, Page 2 -- apb PREMIER PECKFORD: contrary to w~t the hon. member said in preface to his last question, has not been begun and therehave not been any DREE funds put into that yet. It has to be begun. It is going to be along the Trans-Labrador Highway.

So that is going to take a lot of funds, hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars to do that and that must be high priority because we must open up Labrador besides which , both on that Trans-Labrador Highway road and some of the other roads which are not built yet, including the one that the hon. member refers to, it is quite likely, as I indicated a couple of weeks ago, that environmental impact statements are going to have to be done on a lot of those new highways because there is increasing concern about that aspect of it.

So as we get into new road projects I would submit that they are not going to go through the quick approval system that they have in the past as it relates to once the funds are done you can just go ahead and build it because there are going to be environmental questions raised which might inhibit the quick release of some of those projects. But in any case, up to this point in time, the road that the hon. member refers to has not been put into a DREE proposal because there nave been other existing and ongoing roads projects that have taken priority.

But I can assure the hon. member that after those priority ones that are there now are taken care of then, of course, the request that he puts forward will also, then, be considered. MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: LaPoile. A final suppl~~entary. The hon. the member for 4990

M~y 29, 1980, Tape l904, ~a ge 3 -- apb MR. FLIGHT: A final supplementary, Mr . Speaker . MR. NEARY : The l-linister of Labour and Ma np o~1er, I believe it is . Would the minister tell the House what action his depar~~ent or any department of government have taken ~o tr y and get paramedics on the oil rigs offshore here? This has been re commended recent~y and it is almost essential in view of the distance the oil rigs a;r:e offshore and sc forth, to ha ve at least scrnebody on board who is trained to some degree in medicine, paramedics, I think they call them .

Has ~~e minister taken any action to compel the oil companies or whoever is doing the drilling to put paramedics on the oil rigs? 4991

May 29, 1980 MR. SPEAKER (SiitUnS) : and Manpower. MR. J. DINN: Tape 1905 EC - l The hon. the Minister of Labour ~r. Speaker, I am delighted to get that question, especially from the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. s. Neary). There is obviously a change in policy again. He wants us now to take over everything with respect to the offshore. I will certainly have a look at that and maybe we can. We are controlling employment offshore and many other things, ma.ybe we will look at the possibility of taking over paramedics and making sure that the companies hire paramedics offshore. MR. S. NEARY: MR.

SPEAKER: for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary • A supplementary, the hon. the member Obviously the hon. gentleman does not know the difference between making rules and regulations and having a government employment list. I would like to ask the Premier - the hon. gentleman said they want to take over everything offshore. Why is it that the oil companies will not permit the news media to go aboard these oil drilling rigs when they are drilling?

And why is it that members of this House who have asked to go out and visit the oil rigs to have a look at conditions have not been allowed to go out< Why is this? Is there any reason for it? Why can not the television cameras be brought onboard when they are drilling? And why can not members of this House go out and have a look? I went once in the Gulf of Mexico aboard an oil drilling rig. I cannot go aboard one here off the Grand Banks. What is the problem? MR. L, THOMS: Cameras should be allowed in here too. MR. SPEAKER: The hc~l. the :toremier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: I do not know about the press, whether they have had problems getting aboard the rigs. MR. S. NEARY: While they are drilling. PRE)liER PECKFORD: - while they are drilling. It is a good point, becau~e I do not know if there is a safety factor there or not. 4992

May 29, 1980 Tape 1905 EC - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: But when we begin our series of seminars now for all members of the House on the off3hore, we intend to also try to get a

schedule for visitation to the rigs so all hon. members can visit the offshore rigs and watch them in operation. I do not know what it has been up to now. I would have to take it as notice. The Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. L. Barry) just walked in. He might be able to give some information as to why apparently some members of the House and the media are having difficulty getting on the rigs while the drilling is taking place. Obviously, the implication to the hon. member's question is that - MR. S.

NEARY: PRD IIER PECKFORD: No, it is nothing to do with safety. -when the drilling is not in place, is not being done, then there is no problem getting on the rigs, as I take it. MR. S. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: is underway - MR. S. NEARY: continuous • PREMIER PECKFORD: It has nothing to do with safety. So it is only when drilling activity That is all the time, No, that is not true. The hon. member does not know all about the offshore that he thinks he does. The Minister of Mines and Energy might have some information on it. MR. SPEAKER: MR. L. BARRY: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. I am informed, Mr.

Speaker, that there is an insurance problem as far as companies are concerned with respect to the coverage of individuals unconnected with the drilling operations going back and forth. But we are hoping that we can wcrk something out where we will be able to have members who are interested, or members of the press for that matter, get access to see the operations of these rigs. I might add that it is a terribly boring experience.

You are involved in a two to three hour helicopter ride both ways where you are sitting down, it is too noisy to talk to anybody, you are looki~g at the surface of the ocean and that is it. And by the time you get out there you are ready to come 4893

May 29, 1960 Tape 1905 EC - 3 MR. L. BARRY: back in again. I would personally recommend that anybody who is interested in seeing L~e operation wait until the rigs come in to the harbour and 4994

Hay 29, 1980 Tape No. 1906 so - 1 ~R. L. BARRY: go down and have a tour of them at your leisure because the difference between seeing the actual rig and seeing it in operation, you do not learn a lot more in the two instances. MR. S. NEARY: Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: (Si~r ,ms) Final supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile,followed by the hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. S. NEARY: I look forward to the han. Premier's suggestion that we may be able to go aboard these rigs. Obviously, the Hinister of Mines and Energy (Mr. L.

Barry) was aut and a goad many more people were aut who managed - t~is is rubbish, garbage the oil companies are t'llking about, the insurance. They take all kinds of people on board ex~ept the press, the media and the me~~ers of this House. ::"OME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, ohl MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my final question is to the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. J. Dinn) and it has to do with a matter I raised some time ago about the amount of time worked on the oil rigs. I think it is twenty-one days they work now,and most people in this Province feel the work

schedule should be reduced to two weeks on and two weeks off. And the minister promised to look into that, that something may be done about it. Can the minister give us a progress report on what is happening in this regarc because the hon. gentleman just told us that it is awful boring out there? Well, these men are out there twenty-one days, they must be awfully bored. It must be awfully frustrating for them. What is being done to get two weeks on and two weeks off? MR. SPEAKER: !'..R. J. DINN: The hen. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. Mr. Speaker, I was not aware that the hen.

Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. L. Barry) said it was boring out there. It is boring going out and coming back. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, ohl 4995

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1906 SD - 2 MR. J. DINN: The fact of the m~tter is, Mr. Speaker, yes, the hen. member asked the question - MR. G. FLIGHT: SOME RON. MEMBERS : MR. J. DINN: Are they boring you out there? Oh, oh. - about the shift

schedule out there which is twenty-eight days on and twenty-eight days off. Now, to this point in time I believe we have a person who is doing a polling of all the individuals who work in the offshore and to this point in time, the last time I cheCked he did not have any dissenting voices with respect to the twenty-eight days on and twenty-eight days off. Indeed, most people who he had contacted to that point in time,and I am not sure of the number, most people were in favour of the twenty-eight day on and the twenty-eight day off shift. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh , oh. !A.R.

SPEAKER: (Simms) The hon. the member for Terra Nova. MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I have a further question fer the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. C •. Bre-tt). I have a new name.for that departroent Debate.I will not give that name now - when I get into the Concurrence AN RON, MEMBER: Get on with it. MR. T. LUSH: - but when I get into that I will have tc recommend a new name. Rut, Mr. Speaker, the minister in talking about these estimates through the media mentioned that he thought that the monies were well-distributed throughout the Province.

I am wondering whether the minister is satisfied that the representation on his side of the House and the percentage of the vote that they got in the Province warrants giving PC districts 84 per cent of the monies allocated, that is 116 per cent to Liberal districts? Maybe the minister did not notice that, maybe it is all by chance but maybe the minister can speak to that, does he feel that the present representatiun on his side of the House and the percentage of the vote that they got from the people of Newfoundland warrants giving 84 per cent of the total expenditures to members on that side of the House?

SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. 4996

May 29, 1980 MR. SPE~R (Simms): and Communications. MR. C. BRETT:! Tape No. 1907 EL - 1 The hon. the Minister of TranEportation Mr. Speaker, I am not permitted to say that the hon. member is misleading the House, you would rule me out of order. AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! You =an say that. MR. C. BRETT: I would not be permitted to say it. But the hon. member knows that that is very, very misleading. There is only ~15 ~illion of a Provincial program and that was tabled. MR. LUSH: I am talking about the total. I am talking about the total. MR. C.

BRE'rl': I know the hon. member is talking a.bout the total 1 but the hon. member is also aware th<at $18 million of that is going on the Trans-canada Highway. MR. LUSH: They are in my district. They are included in my district. MR. BRETT: And eighteen and fifteen and what is left of fifty-eight is going in DREE. So the hon. member knows that. That figure is very very misleading. Very misleading. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. T. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Terra Nova. Order, please! MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, taking these figures - MR.

WARREN: Do not let him off the hook. liJa liON. MEMBER: The minister is misleading. MR. T LUSH: - and calculate them as they are, 4997

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1907 EL - 2 MR. T. LUSH: it is ~~e minister that has included the monies of the Trans-Canada in the district. That is not my fault. I am taking the total monies that are allocated, $5Bmillion and if that is worked out you will find that eighty-four per cent of it is in PC districts and I am asking the minister can he justify that eighty­ four per cent to members on the other side? You cannot fake the figures. That is the exact per centage. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : and Communications. MR. C. BRETT: The hon. the Minister of Transportation Mr.

Speaker, there is no trouble at all tc. justify that, none whatsoever in this world. If ~~e sections of the Trans canada Highway that most needed to be upgraded happe~ed to be pop­ ulated by people who voted conservative then there is nothing in this world I can do about it. Absolutely nothing. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. '1'. LUSH: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. T. LUSH: I can remily understand the concem of the Minister of Mines and Energy (L. Barry) this :DOming when he vas talking about the synchrclift. AN HON.

MEMBER: SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! Bear, hear! MR. T. LUSH: I can readily understand it. Be is well- versed in that kind of perverted thir.king ·He certainly knows how it works • Now, Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member has a supplementary? MR. T. LUSH: · •:es, ru:. Speaker. I did not expect it though from this freshly sanitized government, I did not expect that kind of thing, this program. I wonder if the minister - if all ministers are 4998

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1907 EL - 3 MR. T. LUSH: familiar with this marvelous booklet presented by the Rural Development Association from my district to convince the government to pave roads. I would venture to say that the minister did not get a proposal from any group in this Province, certainly not the ones included here. And I wonder if the minister sub­ mitted this to Cabinet? can he tell this House whether this proposalfrom the Port Blandford to Winter Brook Rural Development Committee was submitted to Cabinet?

A marvelous, an excellent document supporting why the roads should be paved in th~ Terra Nova district. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : and Communications. MR. C. BRETT: docUIDents - MR. LUSH: MR. C. BRETT: The hon. the Minister of Transportation Mr. Speaker, I can produce dozens of Table them. Table them. - equally as good as that one. You know, every single district in this Province has gravel roads - MR. LUSH: Table them. MR:. C. BRETT: - can come up with a document like that. Every single one. So, no,that particular one I did not present it to Cabinet. I do not think I was - MR. WA!UlEN : Why? Why? MR. C.

BRETT: Why was not it presented ? - asked to present it to Cabinet. That was presented to me as the Minister of Transportation and Communications. AN HON. MEMBER: Why did you not present it to Cabinet? MR. C. BRETT: So it was not presented to Cabinet and as I indicated I can come up with dozens equally as good as that one. MR. T. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : I indicated a final supplementary. The 4999

May 29, 1980 MR. SPEAKER: (SiJDIDS) he wishes to yield. MR. B.ENNETT: MR •. T. LUSH: Tape NO. 1907 EL - 4 hon. the member for st. Barbe, unless I yield. Mr. Speaker, the point of the matter is that this COI!IIIIittee asked emphatically for the Minister of 'l'ransporta~on (C .Brett) to present: this to his colleaques. 5000

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1908 NM - 1 MR. LUSH: There was also a copy to the Premier, and one to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morga~), and one to the Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr. Power). SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAXER (Simms) : Order, please! MR. LUSH: My question to the minister is, in order to get these roads done next year do we have to require this rural development committee to go through this again, to come up with a document, or is the minister going - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh: MR. SPEAXER: Order, please! MR.

LUSH: - is this document going to be good for next year, this submission that they put in this year? AN HON. MEMBER: MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAXER: and Communications. MR. BRETT: a foolish question like that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. BRETT: question. That document is - SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAXER: MR. BRETT: A good question. Speak. The han. Minister of Transportation Mr. Speaker, I do not know how to answer Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker, that is a foolish, silly Oh, oh! Order, please! You are asking me whether that document will be good next year this time. I suppose the document will always be good.

You indicated it is a good brief 1so it will still be good next year. Whether or not it will have any influence on whether money is allocted to the hen. member's district I do not know. I have already told the hon. member that everybody, every district in this Province that has gravel roads can present a brief to me or to Cabinet equally as good as that one. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for St. Barbe. 5001

~lay 29 , 198C Tape No . 1908 NM- 2 MR. BENNET'!: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister of Tran~rtation and Communications and I have asked this question, Mr. Speaker, many times - SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. BENNET'!: SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. ·SPEAKER: AN HON . ~!EMBER: MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. !ID1BERS : MR. SPE:l\KER: SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. SP~: Oh, oh! O.rde.r, please! - in the last year. Mr. Speaker - Oh, oh! Order, please! No Ili.Ore than fifty times, I tell you. Order, please! Hear, hear! Order, please! I am having great difficulty in hearing - Oh, oh! Order, please!

I am having great difficulty in hearing members on both sides of the House and I trust there will not be any points of order raised because I cannot hear anything that is being said. MR. BEiffiETT: <'.N !'!ON. ME/1BER: Sm!E !ION. MJ;:J·!BERS: ~!R. SPEAKER: opportunity. MR. BENNETT: The hon. the member for St. Barbe. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. (Inaudible) . Hear, hear! The hon. l!lelllber has already had his I gUess I will be invited to speak up, Mr. Speaker, myself to get above the noise. In view of the commitlllent, Mr.

Speaker, that was made by the Minister of Transportation to the people of Bonne Bay last year, there was a one-man delegation can~e in here and had a ~eting with the minister and a Written commitment was given, I understand, by the minister to that committee, for upgrading and paving 5002

~lay 29, 1980 Tape No. 1908 1m - 3 MR. BENNETT: of that route 431. It has been an ongoing thing for years and years and years , Mr. Speake -r, and I wonder now how the Minister feels. SOME HON. MEMBERS .: Oh, oh! MR. BENNETT: Well 1these people have this commitment in writing from the minister how he feels now with the programme that is presently being put in place by the mini$ter's department and by Parks Canada, I would like to get his comments, and especially how many miles are to be done in that area by the provincial department, upgrading and paving? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon.

Minist~r of Transportation and Communications . MR. BRETT : Mr. Speaker , I am not an enginee= so I do not know how many miles of road we can do. What is it? How much money was allocated? Tbe hon. member can read. MR. BENNETT: $500,000 provincial. MR. BRETT: We1l,if it is $500,.000, I do not know, it will probably do six or seven miles of road. I could not be certain. As I indicated, I am not an engineer. AN HON. MEMBER: It depends on the bids. MR, BRETT: It depends on the bids, that is right. 5003

May 29,1980 MR. BENNETT: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): for St. Barbe. MR. BENNETT: Tape No. 1909 AH-1 A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. The hen. member I have been asking this question ever since I have been a member of the House of Assembly and I would like to remind the House that I am a member for a district,elected. When I have called out to my district in the last couple of days, since yesterday, I have not made a distinction in party politics.

I have called indiscriminately to PC known suppcrters,and they are telling me how many dollars are allocated for that stretch of road, $5 00 ,000 ,before I tell them. They are getting their information from the President of the PC Association and I am wondering how they get that information and why it is not available to me as the member for the district? SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! AN RON .MEMBER: Or any other member. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BRETT: I do not know, Mr. Speaker, that does not have anything to do with me.

I am very busy running the Department of Transportation and Communications and if some - AN HON. MEMBER: do not know. MR. BRETT: That does not surprise us that you - member of the PC party or the President of the PC Association or whoever else in the hon. member's district got some information, well 1 I say good for him. I am glad he did . SOME KON.MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Hear, hear! Time for one final question. The hon. My question is to L~e Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr . Brett).

I wonder basically what is the sense of asking a question with the arrogance of this government. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 5004

May 29,1980 Tape No. 1909 AH-2 MR. HISCOCK: The question I ~mnt to ask is a petition was presented in this House with regards to the road from Lodge Bay to Mary's Harbour and I want basically to know if that road is going to be constructed this year, next year? The Premier has referred to it as the 'twilight zone'. We have heard many demands for roads here in this House today as well as other areas but that is a road where pregnant women have to go over to the hospital on skidoos. It is an area where there is no road at all, no mail can get in there in the Fall or the Spring. MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): Order, pleasel I would suggest the hon. member ask his question if he wants an answer,because there are only about thirty seconds left. MR. HISCOCK: I want to know where the Premier referred to the Trans•Labrador road and DREE agreements andwaiting and depending on the federal government and pushing it over on the federal government, does the provincial government have any intentions of putting a road from Lodge Bay,which is six rniles,to Mary's Harbour and if so when do they intend to do it or are they giving it to DREE and putting off their own responsibility? MR. NEARY: A good question. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. ~IR.BRETT: Mr. Speaker, we have every intention of building a road from Mary's Harbour to Lodge Bay, a very necessary link 1but when we will be doing it I could not say. MR. SPEAKER: expired. The time for Oral Questions has 5005

~la y 291 1980 rape No. 190 9 AH -3 ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. MARSHALL: Motion 9 Bill No. 62. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting The sup_!?ly Of Electrical Power To Industrial Users of Electricity And Enabling The Board Of Commissioners Of Public Utilities To Set The Rates That Industrial Users Must Pay For Electrical Power," carried. (Bill No. 62.) On motion, Bill No. 62 read a first time ordered read a second ·time on tomorrow. HR. HARSHALL: Order 4. Concurrence motion on Social Services. MILSPEAKER (Simms): Order 4.

Concurrence motions on Social Services Committee Report. I believe there is about one hour and thirty minutes remaining. MR. NEARY: The hen. the member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, I would like to have a few words about the Justice estilllates.

We had a few words yesterday about the appointment of the Assistant Deputy Chief of Police 1 we b.;l.d some recoJI]I!IIllendations from my colleague here on my right in connection with removing . the uniformed policemen from the courts, and I want to zero in for the few moments that I have now at my disposal on the E'Ublic Tendering Act, on the report of the Publi_c Accounts Committee last year that the Public Tendering Act, that the Minister of Fisheries 1who was then Minister of . Transportation and Communications,broke the law of this land, broke the law in this Province.

The Public Accounts Committee, made. up of four members from the goveriUnent side of the House, three members from this side of 5006

May 29, 1980 Tape 1910 EC - 1 MR. S • NEARY : the House,unanimously, all of them, all seven, said that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. J. Morgan) who was at o~e time Minister of Transportation and Communications, broke the Public Tendering Act, in other words, broke the law. And we had the Minister of Social Services (Mr. T.

Hickey) appear before the Public Accounts Committee and under cross-examination and under questioning, he said that if the Public Accounts Committee reported him to the House as having broken the law that he would not wait to be flung out of the Cabinet, that he would do the honourable and decent thing and he would resign. That is what the Minister of Social Services told the Public Accounts Committee this mornincr, that if he were found guilty of breakinq the law of this Province, he would not wait for the Premier to fling him out, he would do the honourable and decent thing and resign, That is what he said.

Members of the Public Accounts Committee can confirm what I am saving. Well, apparently, there is a disagreement. His colleague disagrees with him. The Minister of Fisheries does not feel like doinq the honourable and decent thinq, if he did he would have resigned when the report was brought into the House. I am now putting it to the Minister of Justice (Mr. G, Ottenheimer). We already know the Pr~~ier's view on this matter.

We know that the Premier brushed it off by saying that it was just an honest disagreement between the minister and the Committee, an honest disagreement, an honest mistake, that the minister was quite justified in breaking the law because it was good for the Public Treasury for him to break the law. That is the argument they are using, And, Mr. Speaker, now it is up to the Minister of Justice. What is the Minister of Justice going to do about this matter? A law has been broken. The Public Tendering Act has been violated, deliberately, I might add, by the minister's own admission.

The minister himself admitted that he deliberately broke the Public Tendering Act because he thought he could save a few dollars, That is the excuse he is giving. In other words, if you think you can save a few dollars it is okay to break the law. 5007

May 29, 1980 MR. S. NEARY: MR. STIRLING: s~•ould stay for this. MR. S. NEARY: away now. MR. OTTENHEIMER: (inaudible) department. MR. HANCOCK: MR. S. NEARY : Tape 1910 EC - 2 Now, Mr. Speaker, in that act - The Minister of Justice (Mr. G.Ottenheimer) Yes, the Minister of Justice is running (Inaudible) discussing his I wish I could say the same for your head. Well, Mr. Speaker, it is now up to the Minister of Justice to take whatever steps are necessary to bring this matter to a satisfactory conclusion. You cannot have two laws in this Province, Mr.

Speaker, one for the rich and one fe~r members of the House of Assembly - and one for the ordinary peopler you cannot have that kind of a situation. That makes a mockery out of justice. It makes the administration of justice in this Province a farce, a complete farce. And remember, Mr. Speaker - this is how serious this matter is - four members on the government side and three members on this side make up the Public Accounts Committee, so this side of the House is outnumbered by the government members. But the decision was unanilllous.

All seven, four on that side, three on this side said the minister was guilty of breaking the law. And the Premier allows him to sit there day in and day out, carry on his duties, sit in the Cabinet, as if nothing had happened. MR. STIRLING: MR. S. NEARY: The Premier was in that sallie Cabinet. The Premier was in that Cabinet. Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman may have supported the Premier at the leadership convention. MR. WARREN: Forty-seven votes, was it? MR. S. NEARY : He may have supported him. He gave him however many votes he had. I do not know, votes. it was just a handful of AN HON. MEMBER: MR. S.

NEARY: AN RON. ME!'.BER: (Inaudible) • How many? Fifty-six votes. 5008

!o\ay 29, 1980 MR. S. r.;EARY: MR. 'rll'\RREN: MR .. S. NEARY : kir..:i of a - MR . J . MORGAN: MR . WARREN: SO J1E HON . MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. S. N~: Tape 1910 Fifty-six vetes. Oh, is that all? EC - 3 So maybe the Premier feels under some You will get no rise froiil me today. You are ashamed, that is why. Oh, oh! Order, please! Maybe the Premier feels under s~ kind of an obligation and this is the payola, this is the way he is rewarding ~e Minister of Fisheries (Mr. J.

Morgan), rewarding him by not flinging him out of the Cabinet, by not demanding his resignation. !!R· 'l'llOMS': The Minister of Fisheries threatened to t.ell all. MR. S. NEARY: Now What is the Minister of Justice (Mr. G. ottenhei.merl going to do about this? People all over this Provice 5009

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1911 DW - 1 MR. S. NEARY: are . saying today, or were saying when the report came out, it is almost ancient history now, but they said to me, "Well, look ,does that mean now that I do not have to pay my parking tickets? Does that mean now that I can go down and rob a bank and the judge will say, 'Oh, this was only an honest disagreement between me and the bank~· Is that what the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) is going to condone? People are amazed, they are amazed at this government who said they were going to be ooen and honest. MR.

STIRLING: And the President of Treasury Board (inaudible). MR. S. NEARY: That is right. Going to be open and honest and a government comprimising of members of integrity, high integrity. That is the kind ·of an administration we were going to have. Well, Mr.

Speaker, mistake number one on the part of the government was the Premier spending $118,000 to move up in Mount Scio House, mis­ take number two - and it will be an accumulation of blunders that defeats government not one particular thing, although it could be one major item - blunder number two was ignoring the recommendation of the Public Accounts Committee and not flinging the minister out of the Cabinet - MR. HANCOCK: MR. S. NEARY: You are losing your voice, Steve. I am losing my voice is right, Sir.

And mistake number three, of course, was that mon- strosity we saw passed here in the House last week, that so-called provincial flag. And now, I am told, Mr. Speaker, they are -J'Oing to go around the Province having ceremonies to celebrate the flag reminding the people of how much they hate it, that is all they will do. Xll the Premier will do is remind the people·of this Province how much they hate that big rocket, that big dart that is down the center of that piece of rag. 5010

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1911 DW - 2 MR. S. NEARY: But, Mr. Speaker, sezicusl~ it is a very serious matter. The Ministar of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) has to deal with it, he has to tell the House whether or not he is going to assert his powers as Attorney General 1 or not as Attorney General, as Minister of Justice, As Attorney General he advises the Premier and the Cabinet and as Minister of Justice he has to enforce the laws of this Province. Is he going to assert his authority as Minister of Justice, charge the minister, impeach the minister, do something?

The law has been broken, the minister is still sitting there in the Cabinet. What authority does the Minister of Justice have in this case? And what advice has he given the Premier on this matter as Attorney General? The longer the hon. gentleman sits back and condones this and allows it to go on, a black mark on the administration of Justice in this Provinces, it makes a mockery out of the administration of Justice, the longer people are going to think that there are two laws in Newfoundland, one for the members of the House of Assembly and the rich and another one for the poor.

I will look forward to hearing the Minister of Justice comment on this matter. It has to be dealt with, it is not just going to evaporate in thin air. MR. SPEAKER (Butt): MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: certainly be very brief. The hon. Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, my comments will The hon. gentleman is referring to the report of the Public Accounts Committee tabled a couple of months or so ago. And as it was stated at that time, it was the opinion.of the government that there was an honest difference of opinion between the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) and others.

If any hon. members opposite or indeed elsewr.ere have information or evidence 5011

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1911 DW - 3 MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: which would suggest that there is wrongdoing in this or any other thing, then obviously they may lodge a complaint. But that is that, you know, I do not know if there is a great deal more to be said about it or that I intend to say about it. HR. L. STIRLING: Would you permit a question? MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Yes. MR. SPEAKER (Butt): The hon. member for Bonavista · North. MR . L. STIRLING : Thank you , Mr. Speaker. When you say, 'If we have any additional information'.

If information was provided to you that gave you the informa- tion that this was done with the knowledge of the minister, the complete knowledge of the minister, not a difference of opinion but the complete knowledge of the minister, would that be the kind of information that might affect your decision? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. gentleman will aqree that, you know, it is very difficult for me to give an answer to a hypothetical question.

What I suggest is if any hon. member has what he considers to be evidence of wrongdoing then he should lodge a complaint. I am not saying with me personally, with the prosecutorial staff or with the police. That is the usual procedure. MR. L. STIRLING: Would you permit another question? MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Yes. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bonavista North. MR. L. STIRLING: Having some difficulty with the Act- as you are aware the Act has no penalty. There is no penalty in the Act that says, 'If you break the Act you then · do this', and the President of the 5012

May 29, 1980, Tape 1912, Page 1 -- apb MR. STIRLING: Treasury Board indicated it should go through its normal course, through the Public Accounts Committee. Now, it went through the Public Accounts Committee. I can pause while you get a briefing, if you like. MR. OTTENHEIMER: This (inau:lible) here has one too many (inaudible) actuall y I ha ve it. MR. STIRLING: AN HO~. HE!'I'BER: MR. STIRLING: So if, for example - (Inaudible) looking at you.

I am trying to get some indication from the minister as to what kind of evidence he is talking about because it is very difficult - the President of the Council, when I asked for that information before, accused me of trying to make politics, and'wait until the Public Accounts Committee comes in~ The Public Accounts Committee has now come in completely finding the man guilty. I am trying to look for the kind of information you are talking about.

Would you say that written evidence from a senior civil servant indicating that the minister was about to break the Act and then was told that he had broken the Act, would you say that that is the kind of evidence that you are talking about? MR. SPEAKER(Butt): The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, first let me make something of a correction there. It may just be terminology but I think it is more than that.

Words can be used, obviously, in different senses, but, yo~ know, the Public Accounts Committee found the man guilt y, you know, guilty using the loose term, fair enough, but the Public Accounts Committee nor this Legislature - there is obviously a distinction between the function of the courts and the function of the Legislature. People say the Legislature is the highest court in the land, and 5013

May 29, 1980, Tape 1912, Page 2 -- apb MR. OTTEN HEIMER: that is true in a specific sense. It does not mean that the Legislature and the courts, as we generally understand it, are one and the same and their powers and prerogatives are one and the same, nor is this that kind of a court, nor is it a sort of magisterial enquiry kind of forum. The Legislature, you know, is not that. And I do not think that I have anything to add to what I said before.

I do not think I should tell the han. gentleman what he should have or should not have or that, but, you know, if anybody has information which they have reasonable and probably grounds to believe, evidence of wrong- doing, then they should pass it along to the appropriate authorities. But, I mean, this Legislature is not the appropriate authority. MR. NEARY: police? MR. OTTENHEIMER: MR. NEARY: MR. OTTENHEIMER: MR. NEARY: an investigation? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Would the minister say the I would say the police. And what is the procedure? The police, you know.

Phone the police and ask for Well, you give it to the police and then the police, you know, they obviously make their own decision. MR. NEARY: Would the han. minister (inaudible) . MR. OTTENHEIMER: No. No. The police do not come to me. MR. NEARY: Oh, they do go to your department. MR. OTTEN HEIMER: The police do not come and ask for permission when they enquire into something. MR. NEARY: Oh yes they do. MR. OTTENHEIMER: They may be in - 5014

May 29, 1980, Tape 1912, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: do. MR. OTTENHEIMER: I beg your pardon, they If the hon. gentleman thinks that every police enquiry that starts they come to the Department of Justice and say - MR. NEARY: Right on. MR. OTTENHEIMER: -'Shall we investigate this?' MR. NEARY: Right on. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Or, 'Should we not investigate that', that is not the case at all. MR. NEARY: Oh yes it is. MR. OTTENHEIMER: No. the hon. gentleman is totally wrong there. He is totally wrong there. I mean, he must realize - MR. NEARY: I am totally right. MR.

OTTENHEIMER: -that if somebody phones . up to the police, or goes into the police suggesting that so and so has evidence of some planned robbery or this or that, the hon. gentleman really does not think then they phone the Department of Justice and say, 'Should we investigate this or should we not investigate this?' MR. NEARY: Involving members of this House and the ministry they do. MR. OTTENHEIMER: MR. NEARY: you they do. MR. OTTENHEIMER: MR. SPEAKER(Butt): Grand Bank. No. no. Oh every time, I guarantee No. no. The hon. the member for MR. THOMS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I think the Minister of Justice is still hiding his h.ead in the sand on a great many things and when I heard again that there was no wrongdoing according to 5015

May 29 ,_ ~980, Tape 1912, Page 4 --apb MR. THOMS: the report of the Public Accounts Committee, that it was a difference of opinion between two different people, of course, that is, Mr. Speaker, a lot of nonsense, arrant nonsense. Because it was not a difference of opinion. I am not judging whether or not the Minister of Fisheries was right or wrong or whether he did or he did not do it, but the Public Accounts Committee of this House found that the Minister of Fisheries knowingly contravened the Public Tendering Act.

Now, that is not a difference of opinion between two people, that is a unanimous decision of the Public Accounts Committee on whi-ch Committee there are four Tories. You cannot even say it is the Liberals out to try to get a Cabinet minister. It is not a difference of opinion, it is a finding of the Public Accounts Committee that the Minister of Fisheries 0~r. Morgan) of this Province knowingly, on two occasions, contravened the Public Tendering Act. But, of course, Mr. Speaker, both my friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) and Bonavista North (Mr. Stirling) and the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Ottenheimer), they are missing the whole problem with the Public Tendering Act. The Public Tendering Act is not worth the paper it is written on, it is a toothless, useless document. That is what is wrong with the Public Tendering Act. And it was a Public Tendering Act that 5016

May 29, 1980 TaT?e No. 1913 SD - 1 MR. L. THOMS: was drafted by the President of the Council (Mr. w. Marshall) but it is not worth the paper it is printed on for the simple reason that there are no punishments. Any ministe~including the Minister of Health (}tr. w. House), can contravene the Public Tendering Act, anyone can do it. There can be an investigation, it can be found beyond a shadow of a doubt that any minister in this Province, this government, or any gover~~ent has contravened the Act.

So what~ There is nothing, there is no clause in the Public Tendering Act which says that the minister in any way, shape or form is to be punished for contravening the Act. HR. S. NEA.~Y: from the Cabinet. MR. L. THOMS: So the hon. thing to do is resign The Act is toothless. Now, the only remedy that the people of this Province have is if the Premier of this Province has the intestinal fortitude to give the kind of honest, upright, outstanding government that he stands in this House day after day and gives lip service to. ~nd if the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. J.

Margas), of course, had any grain of decency or honesty in him he would resign. MR. W. 1-'.ARSHJI.LL: MR. S~AKER (Butt): a point of order. MR. W. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. the President of the CQuncil on We have allowed the hon. gentleman latitude from time to time because we do realize he is tending to become cloned with the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. s. Neary) but that is going too far. You are not allowed to impugn the honest or integrity of any member and the hon. member has done that by those words. MR.

SPEAKER: That is a legitimate point of order and I would ask the hon. member for Grand Bank (Mr. L. Thoms) to withdraw these remarks 'honesty and integrity' as he refers to the hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. L. THOMS : Of course, .Mr. Speaker, I will be very glad to withdraw them. Now ,I have got to figure how I can say that he - well, he just does not have the intestinal fortitude to do what is right and proper for a minister in that particular situation. And, of course, unless 5017

~lay 29' 1980 Ta pe No. 1913 so - 2 MR. L. THOMS: the Cabinet, unless the P~nti.er of this Province is going to give us the· type of government that he has given lip service to since June 18th, then any minister can contravene this toothless piece of legislation until the cows come home. And the PAC or the POlice or the Depart.lllent of Justice, of course, can find what they like but there is just nothing in the legislation to make it worthwhile,because there are no punis~ts provided for in the Public Tendering Act. The minister admitted during the Public Accounts Committee that, fQr example, the

section dealing with renewing or extending of contracts .;because the Public Tendering Act reads that: "In an extension of a cont .ract it must he extended at the same unit price." so the minister said, "We~l, I have got to take that literally, I have got to give my buddy the extension to the contract at ~'le sallie price even if somebody else , who wants to get rid of a few yards of gravel, is prepared to sell it at a price less than the original contract." And, of coUrse, we saw the convoluted logic of this administration when the Munic!.pali ties Act went through this House and it carried the e.xact same provision 1 where councils in this P.rovince who are extending contracts 11111st extend the contract at the same unit price.

So if the Town Council in Grand Bank 5018

,May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1914 NM - 1 MR. THOMS: wants to make a deal with somebody and get extra yardage from a contractor who has got it in his backyard doing nothing, he cannot do it. If the going price is $100 a yard or whatever it might be, then he must pay, even if the contractor comes up and says, "Look, give me $25 and you can have the lot of it." The Public Tendering Act prevents that from happening. And so what does this administration do? They force through a municipalities act with the same one - with the r.overnment admitting that this is a defect in the Public Tendering Act. They admit that.

But they make the same mistake in the municipalities act. And the problem, Mr. Speaker, as I said, is that the Public Tendering Act is a useless, useless, useless document, because no matter what is found by the PAC, by the Police, by the RCMP, it does not really matter. The only check, the only check is for the person who is so found to be wanting to have the intestinal fortitude to offer his resignation, either that or to have a Premier who has the intestinal fortitude to ask for that person's resignation. That is what is wrong with the Public Tendering Act. It is as simple as that.

And until the Public Tendering Act has gotten some teeth in it you might as well throw it out. MR. NEARY: Awfully discouraging. MR. THOMS: It is terribly discouraging. MR. NEARY: MR. THOMS: Disappointing. What a disappointment. In the last session of the House I was told that the Public Tendering Act would be reviewed. I believe the Premier made a statement that the Public Tendering Act would be reviewed. There is no indication that we are going to get any new legislation or amendments to the Public Tendering Act. The Public Tendering Act is not a big document.

I think the government should scrap it and qet somebody in the Legislative Council to draft a new act. That is what is wrong with the act 1 it is badly drafted. It is badly drafted. Now,whether or not remedies were left out of 5019

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1914 NM- 2 MR. THOMS: the act intentionally or not I do not know 1 but because they are left out,the Public Tendering Act is absolutely useless. Mr. Speaker, my ten minutes are up. I have a few other things I want to say in connection with the Justice Head, so I will get another crack at it I guess. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : MR. STIRLING: The hon. member for Bonavista North. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Under this

section I wcuid like to try to find out from the President of the Council, who drafted the Public Tendering Act and said it was a great piece of legislation, never again would you ever have the kinds of things that in his imagination certainly, at least, happened, and when I asked a question in the House about what legal action was going to be taken, he got very upset and said, "Let it go through the Public Accounts Conanittee".

I was sure that when the Public Accounts Conanittee Report came in that since there was nothing in the legislation that had a penalty for a minister, that the obvious thing would be,once the minister had been caught, the minister himself would voluntarily resign and if that happened I was sure that the President of the Council would not sit in a Cabinet with somebody who admitted to contravening his act, his precious act, the act that was to be the new look. I think one of the things that caused him to leave the previous Cabinet was the abuses under the Public Tendering concept.

I was sure that the President of the Council certainly would not sit with that Cabinet Minister. And then I thought that the Premier, the Premier who was so anxious to disassociate himself from the same Cabinet that he had served in for seven years, I was sure that that Premier would have no other choice, since there was no other penalty, but to say that he was not going to have that kind of minister in his Cabinet. Instead- interesting the difference in concept.

When a committee of this House brought in the flag, a committee of this House, from both sides, we were told that was the answer, here was a committee representing both 5020

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1915 EL - 1 MR. L. STIRLn<G: sides which :b:eught in a flag and, therefore , it should be adopted even though the people of Newfoundland had not seen it. However, when you get a committee re­ presenting both sides of the House, and I have never worked with more conscientious people than the people on the other side of this House, they were very careful that they wanted to look into every aspect, gave the minister every opportunity to clear himself and there is no question that we came to the unanimous opinion that the minister had knowingly broken the law.

And the legal minds said, 'Oh, yes, well· technically because this law is written in such a way - there was a fisherman fined a thousand dollars the other day because he used the wrong kind of net and when he went to the court did the court say to him, 'Well, boy it is alright if you put the fish back in and if you did not really intend to take more fish than you would normally take with another kind of net 1 that would be alright, and it was just a difference of opinion between you and the la¥ enforcement officer about the kind of net you were to uset No, that fisherman got fined a thousand dollars.

But the Minister of Fisheries(J. Morgan) can break the law, and let us have not doubt about it, as far as the people of Newfoundland are concerned the Minister of Fisheries has been found by a eourt of his peers as having broken the law. Now I hope that the President of the Council (¥.Marshall) will tell us, where do we go from here? we brought in, under his drafting, a clean new piece of leg­ islation which is the best in Canada and he suggested, 'Do not play pol­ itics with this,let the Public Accounts Committee handle it~ The Public Accounts Committee has found that the man was guilty.

Not only that, a senior Deputy Minister had told the minister, to use the expression of the Senior Deputy Minister, 'I have told him ad nauseam that he was breaking 5021

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1915 EL - 2 MR. L. STIRLING: the Public Tendering Act, this gre•t piece of legislation th•t the President of the Council (W.Marshalll has ~rought in. Now, the legal people who are involved in drafting - my colleague from Grand Bank(L. Thoms) said there is not even a

section that sets out a fine. What happens if you break the Public Tendering Act? Do you pay a thousand dollars? Do you get fired? What do you do? And we were sort of - the suggestion was well, give the man a fair hearing. Let him have his fair hearing and the Premier or the Cabinet will do the honourable thing. I would like to ask the President of the Council,where do we go from here? It is one thing to adopt a flag that can be held up to ridicule: that is one thing, but what do we do? What is the thinking of Cabinet?

What kind of thing can go on in the minde of the Cabinet,because great authority has been given to the Cabinet, under the protection of their oath of secrecy. Great protection for the Cabinet. What do we do to let a Cabinet member know that as soon as he steps outside the bounds of what is expected conduct, like repeatedly, knowingly breaking the Public Tendering Act- what kind of a Premier can sit and say,'Oh, that is a difference of opinion? I can understand it if a member for this side had a difference of opinion. This was found by members for both sides - members for both sides.

Members who are very strong and loyal to the political party on the other side, the most outspoken defenders of the PC's were on that comm­ ittee, the member for St. John's North (J. Carter), the member for Stephenville (F. Stagg), the member from Menihek(P. walsh). These were people - and the new member for st. John's West(K. Barrett) - great spokesmen, and they were very concerned iiS we drafted that report. They said , 'Look, we have to be absolutely sure beyond a shadow of a doubt, absolutely sure 502?.

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1915 EL - 3 MR. L. STIRLING: beyond a shadow of a doubt that this man is c;uilty of the offense that we are going to report. And there was not the slightest doubt. 5023

May 29, 1980 Tal?e No. 1916 SD - 1 MR. L. STIRLING: And I am sure that everyone of us expected that the Premier would do the honourable thing. Now, the Premier was in the Cabinet, of course, at the time and this morning- the President of the Council (Mr. W. Marshall) might be interested in this- this morning a member who was also in that Cabinet, the ~~nister of Social Services (Mr. T. Hickey), offered two defenses for that minister. The first defense is that he never broke the law without letting his Cabinet know about it, he was not the only one who did it. His first defense was, 'Yes, he broke - MR. L.

THOMS: what was different was that he broke the law - It is alright to break the law likP this when you know (inaudible) MR. L. STIRLING: Now, this is his first defense. The first defense was, "Oh, that was different. I know that the man knowingly contravened the Public Tendering Act~But what he said this morning to the Committee, hi~ first defense, he never did it without letting the Cabinet know about it. The Cabinet knew about it. That was his first defense. MR. T. HICKEY: MR. SPEliJCER: (Butt) of Social Services. MR. T. HICKEY: And the second defense - A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

A point of order, the hon. the Minister If the hon. member is going to quote me, he should quote me very accurately. I did not make any such statement. This morni-ng what I said at the Public Accounts Committee meeting was that my colleague the ~tinister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. C. Brett) , although he probably did something outside the true meaning of the Public Tendering Act 1 did not do it on his own and was not alone ~u ~~at decision. I did not say Cabinet, that is what I said. MR. s. NEARY: Will you hang separately or hang jointly? MR.

SPEAKER: I would rule that there is no point of order but the hon. the Minister of social Services took the opportunity to clarify remarks attributed to him. The hon. member for Bonavista North, two minutes. 5024

May 29, 1980 MR. L. STIRLING: ~IR. J. DINN: MR. S. NEARY: MR. L. STIRLING : MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Bonavista North. MR. L. STIRLING: MR. S. NEJI.RY: day. MR. L. STIRLING: MR. S • NEARY : MR. J. DINN: Tape No. 1916 Thank you, l·lr. Speaker, I - Why do you not read it? Oh, look at little Mussolini. Mr. Speaker, let ~e - SD - 2 (inaudible) works for the telephone company. Order, please! The hon. member for Mr. Speaker, let me hasten (Inaudible) letting you off there the other - let me hasten to add - (Inaudible ) the other day. Do down and read it. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

I am having difficulty hearing the han. member. SOME HON. ME~IBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Bonavista North. Order, please-, hon. gentleman • MR. L. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Let me hasten to add that the Minister of Social Ser..,ices (Mr. T. Hickey) , he was Recreation at the time, let me hasten to add that what he just corrected is exactly what he said and he knew precisely what he was saying. He made the assumption that I said it was Cabinet and what he is really saying now is that we have _ to go back and open up that whole subject because, obviously, that minister knew that'Mr.

Morgan'did it but not alone, there were others involved in it. Now, I do not know who else it would be - MR. T. HICKEY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon . the Minister of Social Services. MR. T. HICKEY: I do not want to continue to rise on points of order. It is not my wish to deLay the Committee but the han. gentleman has got to be awfully careful when he is quoting or inferring what I said or what I thought. He can only say or quote what I said. I did not say I knew about it. I said my colleague, the then Minister of Transportation 5025

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1916 SD - 3 MR. T. HICKEY: and Communications .. was not alone in that decision. I did not say who knew it, I did not say I knew it, I ~~ simply saying he did not act alone. He had the blessing of someone other than himself. MR. SPEAKER: (Butt) Once again, I wo~d have to rule there is no point of order but the hen. !'.inister of Social Services took the opportunity to clarify remarks attributed to him. The hon. member has thirty-five seconds left. The hon. member for Bonavista North. MR. L. STIRLING: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

The minister has now opened a whole new subject and I hope I will get the opportunit~ if one of my colleagues intervene, to come back on that. Now, let me get exactly what he said today, just said a minute ago, not alone in that decision. Okay. He admits, this rninister,that he broke the law but one of his defenses if he was not alone in that decision and the second defense, that he used this morning, I presume he will agree, was that he was SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, ohl MR. L. STIRLING: - saving money. Those are the two ----defenses on the whole piece of business. 1-'.R. SPEAKER: Order, please~ Order, please!

The hen. member's time has expired. MR. L. THOMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPE.l\KER: The hon. the member for Grand Bank. MR. L. THOMS: 1 Len 1 , do you want to continue? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. me~ber for Bonavista North. MR. L. STIRLING: Thank you very much. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Social Services has opened up a whole new subject for us and it came up,to answer the question for the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins), was this a Committee Report? No, it was not a Committee Report. Mr. Speaker, the most serious question that we have to try to find out is what is happening inside of that 5D2f1

May 29,1980 Tape No. 1917 AH-1 MR. STIRLING: Cabinet? ~nat is going on inside that Cabinet? What kind of a standard do they use? What kind of a standard do they use to say, Well,it is alright for him to break the law. Now . we have an interesting situation. We have a minister-and we had all of the information or we thought we had all the information. The Minister of Social Services (I1r. Hickey) now opens up a subject, did we really have all the information? Based on that we came to a conclusion. Now the Minister of Social Services (Mr.

Hicke y), when we were trying to find out this morning what was the difference between what the Cabinet member did , I think that he in an honourable way said this morning that no Premier would have to throw me out, I would resign from the Cabinet if I did anything dishonourable. No~ I may be paraphasing him, I may be giving him more credit than I should now but I thought it was an honourable thing t~~t he said, I look at what I am doing in Cabinet as a sacred trust and if anything came back to me as having contravened

an act or being guilty of an offence he would not have to throw me out, I would resign, I would do the honourable thing. what you said. Did you? MR. HICKEY: MR. STIRLING: Now I am not sure if that was exactly (Inaudible) Okay.

So I was trying to find out what the standard was and the standard we found out now- he started to defend and he said, "Oh yes, I know that the minister broke the law." But the two defences that he put up were - let me use his exact quote here in the House, "He was not alone in that decision." In other words, he broke the law but because he was not alone in that decision he should not resign. He should not resign from the Cabinet because he was not alone in this decision. Now who else was it?

That is a whole new subject that the Public Accounts Committee is going to have to resurrect and if I can persuade my colleague from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) to look back at some of that old material we might - 5027

May 29,1980 Tape No. 1917 AH-2 MR. NEARY: No, I am going towards Walsh and McLean; A.B. Walsh and George McLean. MR. STIRLING: Now ,the han. member who has been dubbed by - it is interesting in this House of Assembly where we go through the facade of saying .wel~we must have decorum. Like,for example 1my colleague from Grand Bank (Mr.Thoms) cannot say that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) was dishonest. He withdrew the remark. He can say that the Public Accounts Committee have found that the minister broke the law. He is allowed to say that.

He cannot, like a fisherman, for example, he is the Minister of Fisheries now- if a fisherman goes out and uses the wrong kind of net or he takes his net in too late or too early, he can be taken to court and that fisherman does not get a chance to plead his case. The ~inister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) came to a court of his peers_, the Public Accounts Committee, who gave him a full hearing, a full hearing and now in this House we cannot say, "Oh my goodness they were trying to deceive us." We cannot say that theYwere trying to cover up.

We cannot say that the Cabinet knew something that should not have been done. We cannot say any of those things but it is alright for a minister to say this morning, "But it was alright because he was not acting alone." We seem to have some kind of an idea that as long as you share the guilt with somebody else it is okay to have it happen. On the Flag Committee they could not tolerate public discussion and it was a joint committee. Now,what are some of the other things thatweresaid to the Public Accounts Committee?

A senior official Deputy Minister level,when the minister was in Transportation, the senior man said, " I have told the minister ad nauseam that he is breaking the Public Tendering Act." Another matter - 5028

May 29, 1980 DR. J. COLLINS: MR. L. STIRLING: DR. J. COLLINS : MR. L • STIRLING: Tape 1918 Are you quoting the official? I am quoting the official. He said that word? EC - 1 He said that word. I am sure that the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) is not aware, because I am sure he could not sit in a Cabinet with a man of whom a senior official had said to that, 'I have told him ad nauseam.' I know it was a surprise. I know you are surprised by it. You did not read the material in the Public Accounts CoiiUDi ttee. DR. J. COLLINS : I was asking for accuracy, MR. L.

STIRLING: Oh, I am - absolutely accurate, agreed to by your four colleagues on that side. You know, another thing - MR. D. HOLLETT: Five now. MR. L. STIRLING: MR. J. MORGAN: MR. D. HOLLETT: MR. L. STIRLING: Yes, and a convert. That is right. You are biting water. Ha, you nibbled again. A little nibble. Do you know what else? I would expect that he will now be up on points of order and interrupt because he knows a few other things I am about to say. Another thing that he said was, 'We are going to go ahead and place this order,' and senior officials Mr.

Minister of Finance, listen to this- senior officials said, 'If you are going to send that letter out, you sign the letter because we will not sign it.' Senior officials in his department would not sign the letter which he sent out inviting two people to submit bids, and awarded a bid not in accordance with the Public Tendering Act. Why do you think that five people on that side - or four then, another one now - why do you think that those people without a blemish said, 'This man contr~vened the Public Tendering Act?

Is the Premier aware that he was told again and again, so much so that the deputy minister of the day said, 'I told the minister ad nauseam'? And that is why the Minister of Finance showed such shock, to say, 'Did the senior official really use that expression?' And he did. 5029

May 29, 1980 Tape 1918 EC - 2 MR. L. STIRLING: This was in a Cabinet that seemed to be setting a standard based on the conduct that it is alright as long as the Cabinet knows about it. Do you know that the minister said to that Committee in his opening remarks? He said, 'I have never contravened the act without the authority of the Cabinet.' When the Premier of the day appeared he said, 'Well, I did not know what it was about.' Now, the Minister of Social Services (Mr.T.Hickey) has entered another character into this scene. The Minister of Social Services said he was not alone in that decision.

My time has run out again. I would like to know what kind of standard that the Premier uses. The Premier, who I expected - I said to the people on the Committee, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.J.Morgan) has been set up now and he is goinq to be flicked out within three or four days of becoming Minister of Fisheries. He is going to be flicked out because this Premier will not tolerate in his Cabinet somebody who has been found guilty by all his peers. I said, 'It will not last,' and we were speculati~g on whether'Mr. Andrews'would be the new Minister of Fisheries after'Mr. Morgan'was flicked out by the Premier.

From a political point of view, I ~~ink, as my colleague from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has said - MR. J. MORGAN: MR. D. HANCOCK: up todav. MR. J. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : of Fisheries. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. J. MORGAN: please? Mr. Speaker. Now, you said you were not going to get Just a minor point of order, Mr. S~eaker. A point of order, the hon. the Minister oh, oh! Could I have some quiet, Mr. Speaker, On a very minor point of order but a verv important one. When referring to members of the House, members of the House have to be referred to by the districts that they represent, not by their names. 5030

May 29, 1980 Tape 1918 EC - 3' ·MR. SPEAKER (Butt): That is a leg.itimate point of order and I will ask all hon. members to refer to other hon. members by their district or their portfolio. The hon. t-'u! member for Bonavi .sta North (Mr. L. Stirling) has approximately fiftee n seconds left. MR. L. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I would challenge the President of the Council (Mr. w. Marshall) who drafted this legislation to tell us, '"here do )'ie go from. here? We cannot take the man to court under any

section of the act - he broke the act, like for example , a fisherman could be taken for breaking the act or for a parking ticket - 5031

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1919 NM- 1 MR. STIRLING: People have been put in the jail for parking tickets. There is nothing in the Public Tendering Act that says what happens to a minister who knowingly breaks the act. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : time has expired. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. MARSHALL: Order, please! The hen. gentleman's The hen. the President of the Council. He is going to get defensive. Mr.

Speaker, I have no intention really or - it is regrettable that I have to follow the member for Bonavista North in speaking because I have no real intention of responding ,as he wished to have us respond ,in depth,to his statements. They have been responded to from time and time and time again. This is a matter of the concurrence debates on the budget and I do not think it is going to profit us any to carry on the investigative type of thins that the hen. member likes to join with his colleague, the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) in.

He gets up and he casts little indirect ·inuendoes against people about keeping commitments and all that. I have no intention of responding to that. I would say if the hon. gentleman wants to talk about keeping commitments he should really concern himself with his own house and keep his commitment to the people in Dover whom he promised ~e would set up a constituency office in his own district. And they are still not just waiting for the constituency office but to see the bon. member himself. AN HON. ME~IBER: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: So I have no intention, Mr. Speaker - the hen. - MR. L. STIRLING: (Inaudible).

MR. MARSHALL: The hen. gentleman is trying to pattern himself against the member for LaPoile. 'steve'and'Stirling~ the SS men. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 5032

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1919 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: That is what he is trying to do, Mr. Speaker, the SS men, the great investigators, the great gentlemen trying to find skeletons under every rock. MR. L. STIRLING: MR. MARSHALL: MR. STIRLING: MR. MARSHALL: Oh listen to the expert in that. Mr. Speaker, look,this is a matter­ (Inaudible). - this is a matter - I am not going to speak to the hon. the SS man, Mr. Speaker. I have no intention of responding to him.

I will leave him to his investigations in ~~e Public Accounts Committee, the Public Accounts Committee that this government set up, but which the hon. gentlemen there opposite, as you can see from his statement,'we found someone guilty; they regard it as a great inquisition and on that is going to hinge as to whether or not that Committee can operate as an effective organ or not. And I doubt very much,if it continues on in the way in which the hon. member for Bonavista North (Mr.

Stirling) and his immediate colleague, the other member of the team continue on,as they are reported to continue on, that it will be a very effective committee. But I tell the hon. member for Bonavista North that he is just a little child when it comes to trying to measure up to the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) in the hen. member for LaPoile's modus operandi, and he would be much better off for his own future if he tried to develop one for himself. Now, Mr. Speaker, we are now concerned with the report of the Social Services Committee.

And I have heard speeches being made from time to time in this House but I have not heard anything relating to the departments themselves and the positive things. I am going to talk for just a few moments about some of the positive things. Did the hen. gentlemen there opposite, particularly the member for LaPoile, get up and mention anything about the new hospital at Channel-Port aux Basques? We heard today in this House, Mr. Speaker, about the alleged attempts of this government to only pave and only give services to districts where PCs are. We have not heard, Mr. Speaker, 5033

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1919 NM- 3 MR. MARSHALL: once, not one word from the other side of this House about the hospital at Channel-Port aux Basques, which when yo-..1 consider - MR. L. THO~ MR. MARSHALL: MF.. L. T!!9MS: MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : MR. MARSHALL: MR. DINN: MR. MARSHALL: What about Salt Pond? - when you consider - What about Salt Pond? Order, please! Mr. Speaker, when you consider the - The one near Salt Pond? when you consider, Mr. Speaker, the financial constraints in this Province it is a monumental task. The hospital did not go in St. John's. It did not go in the district of Trinity North.

It went in what district? It went in LaPoile. And what is the type of reaction that we get? What kind of support do we get? The member for LaPoile himself gets up in response to-the first speaker for the Opposition and has unlimited time to respond to the Budget Speech and spent the whole time talking about how bad the Budget Speech was. Now this is the same hon. member- does he not want his hospital at Channel-Port aux Basques? we have not heard a positive word, Mr. Speaker, coming from the other side of the House. There are other matters, Mr.

Speaker, before this House and this is the purpose of the committees and the concurrence debates. What about the ten per cent increase rates in social assistance? Instead of trying to lambaste the Minister of Social Assistance for their own imagined grievances, why about that positive step? Then again back on the health programme, what about the drug programme, Mr. Speaker, with resoect to the citizens? MR. H. YOUNG: What about the ambulance? MR. MARSHALL: Are the hon. members there opposite not interested in that at all?

Are they not interested in asking questions as to what is involved in this programme, what measures can perhaps be made to improve it? How we can possibly expand it in the future, are they interested? No, Mr. Speaker, they a:re not interested in that 1 they 5034

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1919 NM - 4 MR. MARSHALL: are only interested in their pathological and their psychological rantings, based upon, Mr. Speaker- led,as I say 1 by the two SS men on the other side of the House. MR. THOMS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : A point of order, the hon. member for Grand Bank. 5035

........_ May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1920 EL - 1 MR. L. THOMS : Mr. Speaker, Your Honor has already ruled that you are not permitted to refer to an hen. member in this House by his name: you have to refer to him by the district he repres­ ents. I am wondering if it is not just as unparliamentary to call a person an SS man· The hen. the President of the Council (W.Marshalll has just called the member for Bonavista - North (L.Stirling) and the member for LaPoile (S. Neary) SS men. MR. J. COLLINS : MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Minister of Finance . MR. L. THOMS: DR. J. COLLINS : To the point of order, Mr. Speaker.

To the point of order, the hen. the - with all its connotations. Would the hon. member tell us if we cannot do that can we refer to certain members as flip-flop members, would that be permitted? SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: Oh, oh ~ o%der, please Order, please To the point of order, there is a point of order. Order, please! All hon. members in the House should be referred to by their districts or their portfolios that they represent. The hen the President of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: I have to, Mr. Speaker, convey to you my apologies.

I wish to make it known to the House that when I was talking about SS men I was not speaking in the general connotation but as I des­ cribed ~em first as 'Steve' and Stirling: But Mr. Speaker I do understand and I will identify them _ in future I will refer to these two gentlemen as the hen. the member for Bona vista North and the hen. the member for LaPoile. Now,Mr. Speaker, we have before this House in 5036

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1920 EL - 2 MR. W. MARSHALL: - this category of departments many positive programs that have been bought in the Budget. What about the government's medical transportation program with respect to Labrador? Rave there been any questions on that, Mr. Speaker? MR. STIRLING: times and there was no answer. MR. W. MARSH11LL: concurrence debates? MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER {Butt) MR. W. MARSH11LL : {InaudiblE) over and over - three Have there been any questions in the Three times. Order, please In the concurrence debates - the members seemingly mo~t affected are the members from Labrador. MR.

STIRLING: They have asked over and over and there has been no answer. MR.MARSHALL: The members on the opposite side, the members in turn - have we heard any questions in the concUrrence debates from the members from Torngat Mountains (G. Warren) and Eagle River (E. Hi•cock)? No. SOME HON • MEMBERS : No, no. MR. MARSHALL: Because they cannot get into the debate, Mr. Speaker. They ~annot qet into the debate because the front liners there wish to get on their and cast their little inuendos. MR. YOUNG: AN HON. MEMBER: MR.

I'.ARSH11LL: (Inaudible) Nothing is sacred in front of {inaudible) Now the hon. member , look I will tell you what is sacred about the - I remember~the hon. member for Bonavista North (L. Stirling) when he was not the member for Bonavista North, when there was a great conference called one time of industrialists 5037

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1920 EL - 3 MR. W. MARSHALL: in Newfoundland at the Arts and Culture Centre - MR. L. THOMS: (Inaudible) • MR. MARSHALL: - and his great leader at the time, the only living father,was in charge of it. I can remember the han. gentleman there opposite getting down in the stands ,.. in the side, in the wings and singing, How Great Thou Art - not to the Only Living Father, because he did not do that at the time, but how great were all the contractors there at the time, these contractors who used to carr}' off contracts day after day in their hip pockets.

But the very presence of the Public Tender Act, Mr. Speaker, number one, will prevent them from doing it in the future. the effectiveness of it. SOMi: liOlil. :~ERS: MR. L. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : for Bonavista North. MR. L. STIRLING: In fifty years time, that is when we will see Hear, hear! A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the han. the member A point of order. I am flabbergasted. The member for St. John's E~st (Mr. Marshall) has completely either fabricated or dug down to the deep, dark xecesses of wherever his - MR. B. TULK: That is all he is capable of doing. MR. L.

STIRLING: I got a t,.-o minute warning, thank you very much. I do not know what came out of that deep, dark mind to associate me,when I was at that time Deputy Mayor of the city, with some remarks that have absolutely nothing to do - it is a complete fabrication and innuendo of the worst order, Mr. Speaker. I have never had anything to do with a contractor, I have never worked for a contractor, made no such speech, and he is guilty of the worst type of image slandering that he has ever completed. SOME HON • MEMBERS ; MR. SPEAKER: Oh, oh! Order, please!

I think I have heard enough to make my ruling that there is obviously no point of order, but the bon. member took an opportunity to clarify remarks or a particular situation attributed to him. 5038

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1921 ow - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Butt): The hon. President of the Council has one minute left to conclude. MR. W. MARSHALL: So that I can just clarify it, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman was in the wings 1 he spoke in support of a very prominent contractor or contractors at· the particular time. As I say, I do remember him vividly, he was standing as small figure, as it were in the wings 1 as.·he stands now in the wings of the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) and in his shade. But, Mr. Speaker, let me say this we are in the concurrence - MR. L. STIRLING: A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A point of privilege, the hen. member for Bonavista North. MR. L. STIRLING: The member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) is a blatent liar. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. W. MARSHALL: Now, Mr. Speaker, I have to ask for a retraction, an immediate retraction of that. You cannot call people that. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member must retract that. That is totally unparliamentary and the hen. member has to retract then to rule on the point of privilege. MR. L. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, that is my point of privilege that I have been completely maligned and the man is a barefaced liar and it is a barefaced.lie. MR.

SPEAKER: There is no point of privilege, so I will have to ask the hon. member to withdraw that. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Name him. Name him. Fire him out. 5039

!'lay 29. 1980 Tape No. 1921 ow - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Butt): Once a9ain I will ask the hon. member for Bonavista North (~r. Sti rl in~) to with­ draw. MR. I.. ST!:Rr.ING: Mr. Speaker, I have no P»otect ion a9ainst somebody who completely fabricates something and it is a deliberate barefaced lie. And I cannot ~ithdraw something which is a lie. M.R . SPEJ\KER: I will recess very briefly. RECESS 5040

____ .f_ ----- May 29, 1980 Tape 1922 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! I will give the hon. the member for Bonavista North (Mr. L. Stirling) one final opportunity to withdraw the term 'barefaced liar'. MR. L. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, I have consultad with my colleagues and it has been pointed out to me that ,in fact, if I continue to use that term, I am showing disrespect for the Chair and certainly none is wished. I certainly have no intention of showing any disrespect for the Chair, none whatsoever. And if it is understood in that context, Mr.

Chairman, I certainly withdraw the remark as a matter of respect for the Chair. MR. R . MOORES : - - MR. L. STIRLING: AN HON. ME!oiBER: MR. L. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: MR. L. STIRLING: in the heat of debate. Hear, hear! And I intend to - No, that is not good enough. If you will allow me to finish . Order, please! I can understand that things get said I intend to consult with the President of the Council (Mr. W. Marshall) because things were said on both sides.

I am going to give the President of the Council - not at this meeting, but afterwards, after we discuss it, to find out the context in which he meant it, I am going to give him the opportunity to clear the air, and, Mr. Speaker, I categorically say that there is - and I am sure that when the member for St. John's East gets a chance to look at Hansard he will see that I could not sit here and accept the connotation of kickbacks, payoffs, rip-offs with a comment that he says I made ten years ago at a development conference.

I have to reject that categorically as being untrue and a complete fabrication, and of the worst order, Mr. Speaker, because I cannot, Mr. Speaker - it is the kind of thing you cannot defend yourself against if somebody says something which is untrue, and it is, Sir, untrue. But in the context of the respect for this House and the respect for the Speaker, I withdraw the words, whatever they were that were offensive - MR. SPEAXER: Barefaced liar. 5041

May 29, 1980 Tape 1922 EC- 2 MR. L. STIRLING: - barefaced liar, and I certainly withdraw those words. And I really intend to consult outside the House with the member for St. John's East (Mr. W. Marshall) afterwards to find the context in which it was done. So in that context, Mr. Speaker, I withdraw the words 'barefaced liar'. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. S • NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, word came in on the wire from VOCM a few moments ago that there was trouble over in front of the police barracks this afternoon when the Police Brotherhood requested the Chief of Police to allow the Canadian Police Association representatives who are visiting the Province an opportunity to speak to the Brotherhood members after a parade they had on the parade grounds. The Chief of Police, Mr.

Roche, denied the Brotherhood the opportunity to invite their guests who are visiting the Province from the Canadian Police Association to speak to the Brotherhood members and they were forced to go out the~ into ~e parking lot to hold their meeting. And I heard the President of the Brotherhood on VOCM state that as a result of this discourtesy on the part of the Chief, as a result of this arrogance and this contempt for the Police Brotherhood members on the part of the Chief, that Monday when Mr, Coady, the new - Is he assistant or a new deputy? - MR. L. THOMS: Assistant deputy. MR. S.

NEARY: - new .Assistant Deputy Chief of Police is brought into the building that the Brotherhood will walk out in protest. MR. L. THOMS: No, Deputy Chief. MR. S. NEARY: Deputy Chief - Mr. Coady is brought in, the Brotherhood will walk out in protest. They are hopping mad, they are upset, Mr. Speaker, and I do not blame them. There were not asking to interfere with the parade in any way, they were not asking to interfere with the Chief's business about the parade ., AN HON. MEMBER: MR. S, NE~.RY: and (inaudible) it has to co with the Justice Department 5042

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1923 IB-1 MR. NEARY: that is what we are discussing right now. They did not intend to interfere inany way, shape or form. They just asked if after the official proceedings were over, were terminated, if the Canadian Police Brotherhood people visiting this Province could go and address the members of the Brotherhood and they were denied that request. Now the situation is deteriorating, Mr. Speaker, it is getting worse. The government now have managed to get the teachers in the Province upset. They have managed to get the Royal Canadian Legion upset.

They have attacked just about everybody they can attack inside and outside the Province. They have attacked the Government of Canada and now they have alienated the Police Brotherhood. They have alienated the policemen. The next thing they will be attacking the church. That will be the next on the list, the church will be the n~xt. AN HON. MEMBER: I hope not. MR. NEARY: Well,my hon. friend may think it is virtually impossible, tha~ it will not happen but I would not put anything past this crowd, would not put anything past them. Mr.

Speaker, it is very, very sad indeed, very sad when you look at the way that a group of men are being treated at the present time who have to uphold the law, who have to maintain law and order in this Province. I think it is absolutely scandalous. Obviously the government have no respect for their own law enforcement officers, no respect at all. The Chief is apparently acting under the assumption that he is going to get the protection of this crowd and that he can do what he likes, he can go berserk.

This crowd will uphold anything ana everything and condone everything whether it is right or wrong, it does not ~~ke any difference. They have completely - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) hangover. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I resent that remark and I ask the hon. gentleman to withdraw it. AN HON. MEMBER: I withdraw it. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, you talk about the decorum of this House and the name calling and who lowers the decorum and the smear 5043

May 29, 180 Tape No. 1923 IB-2 MR. NEARY: tactics that go on in this House. We heard it this afternoon from the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) who is setting the example. MR. F. ROWE: Hear, hear! ~m. NEARY: Witch Hunt Willie, the reputation of Witch Hunt Willie in this House. All the witch hunts that took place after this crowd took over the government and all the royal commissions of enquiries and all the police investigations and search warrants that they issued and all the other dirt they did. MR. HISCOCK: they. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): MR. NEARY: MR. HISCOCK: MR.

NEARY: They will not do them now though will Order, please! And they have not - The first seven years not at all. No, Mr. Speaker. I dismiss the hon. gentleman forthright, he just does not count in this House as far as I am concerned. MR. THOMS: MR. NEARY: He would not let Joey Smallwood speak. It is very sad, Mr. Speaker, the way the ~olice Brotherhood are b~ing treated. MR. E. HISCOCK: Demoralizing. MR. NEARY: And if they walk out on Monday it is the minister's fault and the government's fault. They are driven to desperation, driven to it.

And the government have dug in, the minister has dug in his heels, the government have dug in, Mr. Speaker, and I can see trouble brewing on the horizon, I can see trouble brewing. They have attacked the teachers. They have attacked the Canadian Legion. They have attacked the nurses. They have attacked Ottawa. They have attacked Nova Scotia. They have attacked Labrador. The next now to come is the church and any day at all that is likely to happen. Now, Mr.

Speaker, we started out this afternoon trying to deal with this situation of a minister who was guilty of breaking the law, who still sits in the Cabinet in this Province. The minister broke the law, the minister is guilty. The minister was tried and found guilty by a jury of seven people 5G44

May 29, 1980 '!'ape No. 1924 GH-1 MR. NEARY: and yet the Premier allows that hon. gentleman to sit in his Cabinet. It is absolutely inexcusable. There is no justification for it,none at all. It just does not happen under the British parliamentary system of government. It does not happen - MR. BISCOCX: He has no regard for that. MR. NEARY: - in any other jurisdiction in the world, in Canada, in the British Commonwealth, in any jurisdiction under the Union Jack. In the British Commonwealth of Nations the hon. gentleman would have been forced to resign, except in Newfoundland.

In Newfo~~dland it can be classified, when you break the law and you are found guilty by a jury of seven people, it is classified as an honest difference of opinion between the minister and the jury. Just imagine - . MR. THOMS: MR. NEARY: MR. JAMIESON: MR. NEARY: One honest and one dishonest • - in this case the - pardon? ThePreaier said it was a judgement call . A judgement call, he said, a judgement call. They took evidence, they sent for witnesses, they sent for documents. They sent for documents, and the Premier tells us it was a judgement call.

The minister appeared at the hearing, witnesses appeared at the hearing. There were hearings day in and day out that went on for months and the Premier says it was a judgement call, a judgement call, an honest disagreement between the minister and the jury. Well, will they say the same thing about A. B . if he is found guilty? Will that be an honest difference of opinion between A.B. and the judge. MR. SPEAKER: (Baird) Order, please! I wish to remind the member his time is up. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I hope another member will get up to speak so I can get back at this again, because we have no intention of letting this sliee by and ' Witch-Hunt nillie' can camouflage it and drag in all the red herring he wants but we are still going to have a go at it. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Eagle River. 5045

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1924 GH-2 MR. HISCOCK: I would like to direct a few of my comments towards the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) and, basically, the Province has been expecting the minister to blossom and to - MR. WA~N: Literally speaking. MR. HISCOCK: - put some things forward in a very, very progressive manner in the Province with regard to education. Basically, we are finding that, again, as the Police Brotherhood as well as the Canadian Legion, the teachers themselves find that they really have very little direction.

School boards themselves find themselves in debt for over a hundred million dollars, and they feel that they will need another hundred million dollars in order to have any new construction. Yet, the minister brags from the point of view that $22 million or $12 million was gi~en this year for school construction and yet they were saying that we really need $200 million to just get on an even keel in this Province. I wonder about the quality of education in this Pzovince, not only here in St.

John's but throughout the Province, the equality of producing first-class Newfoundlanders in all things, providing us with scholarships so that we can go outside. I know that this government is particularly against having any Newfoundlanders go outside its boundaries because, basically, we are becoming very parochial in our thinking, and that we have to stay here and have everything done in our own way and by our ownselves.

But, in order for us to do some of these things, we need to go out and with scholarships - and I regret that, basically, this government has not really provided a very extensive scholarship program. For example, people who used to go in the Department of Agriculture to MacDonald College, and forestry, these scholarships now are done away with. Anybody who wants post-secondary education in this Province and needs to go outside has to do it with their own finances.

Yet we are needing top skilled people all the time and, yet, we are having to bring them in from Europe and the United States ~~d from various other parts, instead of sending our own people out. 5!J46

~lay 29. 1980 Tape No. 1924 GH -3 MR. lfiSCCCX: I asked the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) several months ago , in actual fact, to have an educational inquiry into the district of Eagle River, particularly Williams Harbour , Pinsent' s Arm and Cllarlottetown, Fox Harbour area. This is where we have one-room schools, kindergarte n to grade 10, and instead of having two teachers, because of lack of accommodation we do not have the other teacher. The other teacher - two teachers are teaching over in St. Anthony somewhere, and you talk. about the equality of education .

The mi:1ister is ¢ving praise that we are going to be bringing in Grade 12 . Her e we do not eve n have teachers,not qualified, we do not even have teachers to, basically, give us the minimum of elementary education . In coastal Labrador, no resource ce:1tre, no library centre , no music , no enrichment program . You have one teacher from kindergarten to Gr ade 10 in Williams Harbour - two - and in PL~sent's Arm the same way. Two teachers in one classroom , I mean, 5047

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1925 MB - l MR. E. HISCOCK: not as big as the average size office here in St. John's. And yet the Minister of Education (:·ls. Verge) said, "'llhis is the jurisdiction of the G.E.C •. This is the jurisdiction of the school board. We have given them money. " MR. D. HANCOCK: she is known as the cop out Minister of Education in Labrador. MR. E. HISCOCK: Maybe she might be known as the c~p out minister but basically,what I f~el is going 2round in the Province is that the school boards,· the superintendents, the teachers in the field are becoming very, very disillusioned.

We have now given the Minister a chance, we have given her a chance to come forward. Pnd basically her attitude is with pro women's rights and feels that, basically 1 she is the only person in this House who advocates equality of sex within this Province and this Country. And the Premier will be tooting this bill that is going to be before the House now, and basically, I am sure there is no member on this side as well as the government side who has any problem in supporting this bill.

But in the meantime,when . . we asked a question about roads and about dust problems the ~inister's reaction to it, let the men hang out the clothes, let the men hang out the clothes. She is so concerned about changing the word from Manpower and Labour to Employment and Labour that her head is so caught up with the liberation that she is neglecting her main responsibility and that is as Minister of Education. SOME HtlN. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. E. HISCOCK: I would like to ask the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) what has the Province a:me for housing in Coastal Labrador with regard to education.

Also rates at the University. The rates at the University are again - stucent fees have gone up. Again it is being done.when the students are out of University and are gone home after the term. And each ¥ear the increase comes then so that the students themselves are not allowed the opportunity to voice their objections. ~e have one of the greatest platforms and one of the greatest cre~its to the former premier of this Province, J.R. Smallwood, MR. S. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR. E. HISCOCK: the University and the education, As soon 5048

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1925 MB - 2 MR. E. HISCOCK: as Mr. Crosbie and the PC government ended up getting in here in th is ~vernment of Newfoundland and Labrador what did they do? Mr. Crosbie said, I had to pay for my university , let everybody else pay the same way. They cut the loans that were given to students, and the bursaries. And basically, now, we are seeing that the University is going back to the core group of doctors, lawyers, and St. John's businessmen~ and people from rural areas are not given the opportunity to have - I ask the Minister of Education (!-Is.

Verge) with regard to the oil boom and with the high cost of rent going to be increased, and housing, what is the Minister of Education gcing to do for these students who want to 90 to ~rade School and Fisheries College and University? And basically we will find out that housing is going to be out of their reach. With regard to the inequalit±es of education• I was very pleased that the minister changed her mind with regard to the French· progranune. It was not a matter of changing her mind, she had no other choice but to change her mind.

Money that is given by the federal government has to be spent on programmes which are under the jurisdic 'tion of the contract that was given. But in the meantime ,this government still takes the attitude that any money that comes from Ottawa, l!'Dre money- and if you ask for anything, oh, put it under a DREE agreement we are asking ottawa. This government has completely given up its responsibility of any leadership, any direction in any area and always saying we are putting it under DREE. Down in Lodge Bay, if I may point out that I have asked a question of the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr.

Brett); · here you have a school from Kindergarten to Grade VIII and they have to go to Grade IX in Mary's Harbour. If this road was built they could commute daily and live with their parents. But no they have to be separated . and have the extra costs and also the emotional burden of being separated from their families. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. 5049

Ma,y 29, 1980 Tape No. l925 MB - 3 MR. SPEAKER: {Simms) Order, please I !f 1 may interrupt the hon. me!l'.ber. ! think he has a couple of minutes left, but 'lt being 5:00P.M. I hav e to advise the House that I have received notice of one matter for debate at 5:30 P.M. when a motion to adjourn will be deemed to be before the iiouse , notice given by the hon . member for La?oile (Mr. searyl arising out of a question asked the hon. the Minister of 1-'..ines and Energy (Mr. Barry) and the subject matter is Energy Pricing. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker •. 5050

May 29 ! 1980 Tape No. 1926 DW - 1 MR. S. NEARY: Could I withdra~ that. ! do not feel up to it today my voice is giving out, Sir. So I withdraw. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): I understand the bon. member for LaPoile has withdrawn and therefore there are no matters for debate at 5:30 p.m. when a motion will be deemed to be before the hon. House. The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. E. HISCOCK: So I ask the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) what is she going to do with regard to student loans at the university.

Is the government going to increase its grants for bursaries thereby allowing the opportunity ~r more students? The Minister of Finance said, 'Oh, it was th~ university in­ creased them • • Yes, but we also have an obligation to provide equality and leadership for our young people of this Province so that they can, at least, develop their own human potential resource, if not anythi~g else. And I also ask the Minister of Education 1 with regard to the educational inquiry in the district of Eagle River, is she just going to brush this aside?

Or - I have had to write the fire department, the fire commissioner and ask him to look at, the Health Department, do we have to close these schools down in coastal Labrador? Is that what we have to do before ,basically,some accident or some sanitary conditions continues in that area. So I hop~ that the minister will be able to reply to some of these things and start providing the leadership in the Department of Education that this Province has lacked in this past seven or eight years.

That is one thing that this government can definitely say , they have a straight record 1 that the Ministers,of Education for the most case have been completely deplorable and it is 5051

May 29, 1980 Tape No. 1926 DW - 2 MR. E. HISCOCK: about time that we start providing some leadership in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MS. VERGE: Hear, hear! The hon. Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, I will just respond briefly to some of the drivel which we have just been subjected to. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MS. VERGE: First I would like to say that I am q~ite surprised at the hon. member for Eagle River (Mr . Hiscock). He talks about the need for equality.

He had quite a lot to say about the need for equality of educa­ tional opportunities for the students in his district in coastal Labrador communities when previously he had been heeping scorn on me for having concern for women's rights and for equality for women. I would ask him whether he is concerned about equality of opportunity only for the male students of his district - MR. E. HISCOCK: MR. SPEAKER: member for Eagle River. A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. MR. E.

HISCOCK: I do not think at any point, when I made the point I made reference to the Minister of Education in her views on women's rights.! said that the minister cannot continue to give the image to this Province that she is the Mater Donna of women's rights in this Province.And that basically every person in this House would hope that the equality of the sexes in this Province is second to none and that all ~~mbers in this govern- ment and Opposition supports it. So scorn! I have never scorned her from that point of view, if anything I compli- ment her.

But I also would ask her to basically listen and !realize that thare are other people who are capable of sharing the same thoughts. 5052

May 29 , 1980 CR. COLLINS: ~ MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: - . Tape No . 1926 ow - 3 A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. It is so blatently clear that there is no point of order there. is getting up trying to And the hon. member SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order. please! The hon. Minister of Finance is speaking to the point of order. DR. COLLINS: The hon. member was clearly trying to prevent the hon. minister from replying to questions that he had put to her.

And when the reply is being made he uses these spurioWI points of order to try to avoid getting a proper answer. MR. SPEAKER : With respect to the point of order I would rule there is n~ point of order but the bon. member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) took the opportunity merely to clarify remarks that were attributed to him. We have about two minutes remaining in the debate. The hon. Minister of Education. MR. E. HISCOCK: A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of privilege, the hon. member for Eagle River. MR . E. HISCOCK: The Minister of Finance (nr.

Collins) accused me of bringing up the point of order so that the Minister of Education could not have her say. I basically have said it and I will get up on any point of order to straighten out or clarify any JD&tter. And I ask the