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April 1, 2015

41st Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2015-Apr-01 (PDF)

L064 - Wed 1 Apr 2015 / Mer 1er avr 2015

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Wednesday 1 April 2015 Mercredi 1 er avril 2015

Orders of the Day

Making Healthier Choices Act, 2015 / Loi de 2015 pour des choix plus sains

Introduction of Visitors

Oral Questions

Ontario economy

Ontario economy

Privatization of public assets

Privatization of public assets

Municipalities

By-election in Sudbury

Minimum wage

Environmental protection

Executive compensation

Forest industry

Taxation

Social Assistance Management System

La francophonie

Service clubs

Hospital funding

Student achievement

Visitors

Correction of record

Visiteuse

Introduction of Visitors

Members’ Statements

Michael Piche

Rail safety

Muhammad Masood Alam

Minor hockey

Pakistan Day

Holy Week

Eugene George

Agincourt Collegiate Institute

FIFA Women’s World Cup Trophy Tour / Tournée du Trophée de la Coupe du Monde Féminine de la FIFA

Reports by Committees

Standing Committee on Regulations and Private Bills

Standing Committee on Finance and Economic Affairs

Statements by the Ministry and Responses

International Day of Pink

Petitions

Lyme disease

Privatization of public assets

Energy policies

Gasoline prices

Automotive industry

Taxation

Government anti-racism programs

Off-road vehicles

Hospital parking fees

Alzheimer’s disease

Hospital funding

Ostomy supplies

Visitor

Orders of the Day

Pooled Registered Pension Plans Act, 2015 / Loi de 2015 sur les régimes de pension agréés collectifs

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Good morning. Please join me in prayer.

Prayers.

Orders of the Day

Making Healthier Choices Act, 2015 / Loi de 2015 pour des choix plus sains

Resuming the debate adjourned on March 30, 2015, on the motion for second reading of the following bill:

Bill 45,

An Act to enhance public health by enacting the Healthy Menu Choices Act, 2015 and the Electronic Cigarettes Act, 2015 and by amending the Smoke-Free Ontario Act / Projet de loi 45, Loi visant à améliorer la santé publique par l’édiction de la Loi de 2015 pour des choix santé dans les menus et de la Loi de 2015 sur les cigarettes électroniques et la modification de la Loi favorisant un Ontario sans fumée.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further debate?

Ms. Teresa J. Armstrong: I rise today to speak on Bill 45, the Making Healthier Choices Act. As I understand it, this bill, if passed, contains measures that will enact healthy menu choices, amend the Smoke-Free Ontario Act and enact the Electronic Cigarettes Act. This is an important bill, as it will impact so many areas of people’s lives, which my caucus and I believe will be for the better.

I want to look at

schedule 2 of the bill, which addresses the Smoke-Free Ontario Act. Adults have the ability to choose for themselves what vices they partake of; however, we have seen an alarming trend toward flavoured tobacco and its packaging and promotion. I have seen for myself tobacco products that have been branded and packaged to resemble candy more than tobacco. As a parent and grandparent, I find this practice very disturbing. Tobacco companies are not playing fair with our children. It has been a long, uphill battle to educate people on the harmful effects of smoking.

While we felt we were making progress by raising awareness, tobacco companies were one step ahead and already lining up their next generation of customers.

Moreover, tobacco companies felt that pretty packageing wasn’t sufficient and started promotional campaigns to make their product even more appealing. So I’m happy to see this government, at the urging of the NDP critic, take action on this by including a provision that prohibits the sale of tobacco products with promotional items. They have expressed their intent to ensure that any promotional product must, at a minimum, be sold at the cost of manufacturing.

The hidden reality of this

schedule is that once again the government has empowered itself with tremendous leeway over which flavoured products will be banned. My offices have received emails from constituents who are asking for the ban on menthol cigarettes to be lifted. The government has flipped, or rather flopped, on this issue by offering a two-year exemption on the ban against menthol cigarettes, which I suggest will provide tobacco companies with a two-year window to figure out new and creative ways of targeting Ontario’s young people.

All the research suggests that menthol cigarettes could be worse for health than regular tobacco, with studies linking them to even more severe lung problems. It was further reported that menthol smokers report more trips to the emergency room than non-menthol smokers, were hospitalized more frequently for worsening of their lung disease, and had 29% higher risk of being hospitalized. Other studies cite that young menthol smokers consume double the tobacco than those smoking conventional cigarettes.

Speaker, these are very worrisome numbers, and the consequences of smoking menthol cigarettes seem to be greater. The facts are clear: Tobacco is the leading cause of preventable death and illness in Ontario. According to the Ontario Lung Association, there are approximately 13,000 tobacco-related deaths every year in Ontario—that’s 36 deaths per day. They also cite that tobacco-related diseases cost the Ontario economy at least $1.6 billion in health care annually, resulting in more than $4.4 billion in productivity losses, and account for at least 500,000 hospital stays each year.

Tobacco use and the exposure to second-hand smoke is also linked to serious damage in children including asthma attacks, alterations in lung development and chronic middle ear disease. So the facts show us that we have an uphill battle to help educate our children about the dangers of smoking or chewing tobacco, and I am eager to see some real movement on this issue.

Speaker, the fact of this matter is that youth are impressionable. They have always been and always will be. To dismiss this phenomenon about teenagers would simply be naive. However, it is very concerning that there are currently no age restrictions for purchasing e-cigarettes nor are there restrictions on the marketing and promotion of them, of which the tobacco industry has taken full advantage. In fact, since the introduction of electronic cigarettes and vapour, Ontario’s youth have been at the core of the marketing of these products. In 2103 alone, 15% of Ontario youth said they have used e-cigarettes.

Not only are e-cigarettes and vapour attractive to youth, they are falsely portrayed as safe, nicotine-free and an effective smoking cessation aid. However, these beliefs couldn’t be further from the truth.

Lacking regulation both provincially and federally, e-cigarettes and vapour products are not subject to quality and manufacturing standards set forth under the Canada Food and Drugs Act. Just as conventional cigarettes are subject to consumer safety standards, vapour and e-cigarette products should be as well, because in actuality not all consumers of these products know what they are inhaling and what they are taking in.

Furthermore, this lack of oversight in ingredient disclosure and labeling sets a dangerous precedent. A long-held falsehood about e-cigarettes is that they are nicotine-free, which in conventional cigarettes is what makes cigarettes so addictive. While nicotine cannot technically be sold or marketed in Canada—the fact of the matter is that they are readily available on the Internet.

Additionally, studies have shown that the labeling of these products is misguided. In many cases there have been findings of nicotine in products that are labeled as nicotine-free. Not only is this a questionable business practice, but it is also dangerous. These products are perceived as safe and as an alternative to smoking, or even the means to quit smoking altogether. Because of this practice, a relatively new one, more and more studies are coming forth to disprove this belief. In fact, to this day there is no strong evidence to suggest that these products curb smoking at all.

Lastly, Speaker, on smoking, I would just want to note that while I respect an adult to make their own choices, I do want to remind everyone that we are all role models for the children in our communities. The more attractive we make poor health choices appear, the more likely they are to emulate us.

That’s the part of smoking that I think is really important. Health issues are complex: From food to exercise to what we use as—like smoking or drinking. But smoking, in particular, has devastating effects on people’s health, and the next generations that’s up and coming needs to be educated about the new products that are coming onto the market. When we talk about the flavoured cigarettes, they’re out there right now. Youth think they’re the in thing to do; it’s cool.

I mentioned before in the House that I had met with the Canadian Heart and Stroke Foundation and how their representative had a lip gloss container and it was empty. It was the actual same size as the flavoured cigarette. It looked like candy and it was all designed and colourful. If my daughter or my son had that flavoured cigarette in their backpack, I would think they were wearing lip gloss. I wouldn’t have a clue that might be an e-cigarette. Parents also have to be up to date on what products are out there when it comes to smoking, when their children are at risk.

The other piece I want to talk about is the healthy food act part of it, the Making Healthier Choices Act. I might be able to talk about this in my supplementary a little further. There a many people in my riding who contact my office, and I meet every day, who are underemployed. They have precarious employment. They’re working for minimum wage and they are just scraping by. Oftentimes they’re just concerned about food security and how to make healthy choices every day in their diet. Just the issue of affordability of everyday food—when people go out to eat, that’s a privilege.

Not everyone has that room in their budget to go out and have a dinner at a restaurant. I do applaud the fact that when people are going out to eat in restaurants, we’re going to have menu labelling and there’s going to be awareness and education so people can make healthier choices. But we forget that for the people who are working who can’t even squeeze a night out in a restaurant out of their budget, that food security is real every day for them.

I’m happy to see that this bill has finally come forward. I know that our health critic from Nickel Belt has been working very hard, and so thank you to the government for recognizing the work that’s been done on this and bringing it forward and working together with all groups to try to make this a good bill. I hope that when we hear more debate, I look forward to this bill being passed when it comes to that time. That the real work, again, will be done in committee to strengthen this bill—and particularly the smoking

section would be a great step forward, to see that happening.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Ms. Ann Hoggarth: Thank you to the member from London–Fanshawe. I agree with you: This is basically a non-partisan issue. We need to get this bill passed.

We know that healthy kids grow up to be healthy adults. In my former occupation as a kindergarten teacher, quite often you would see children who were coming in who were already overweight and physically not able to keep up with the others in physical education classes.

A healthy start is better for our kids and it’s better for our health care system. The healthier our kids are, the less likely they are to develop a chronic disease later in life. Diabetes is increasing very quickly. Diabetes is becoming more prevalent, especially in young children, and I think this bill is very important to help curb that. That’s why the Ontario government constructed the Healthy Kids Panel. They provided us with invaluable advice and we are moving forward on many of the panel’s recommendations, including around healthy eating choices for our kids.

In kindergarten, we checked the children’s lunch boxes and encouraged them to eat the fruits and vegetables and healthy choices in their lunches before they ate the Oreo cookie.

In order for our parents and children to make healthy choices, though, they need to be informed about the kind of food they are eating. The Ontario government has reintroduced legislation which will make it easier for families to make informed and healthy food choices and give them the right information in the right place at the right time. These initiatives build on the steps we have taken to give our kids a healthy start, which will include new investments in breastfeeding supports and additional investments in the Ontario Student Nutrition Program. I urge you to support this bill.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Jack MacLaren: I support this bill because it is aimed at improving people’s health, and the most important

part is probably aimed at improving children’s health. We have a situation—especially on the smoking side with flavoured cigarettes—where that campaign is pretty clearly aimed at children and trying to introduce them or entice them into the habit of smoking with these candy-flavoured e-cigarettes. I’ve seen the packaging—the Heart and Stroke people were into my office and explained to me the risks and dangers of this. The packaging makes it look like candy. It’s not aimed at adults who smoke.

Adults who smoke are most likely going to smoke cigarettes—menthol-flavoured, perhaps, which has been around for 70 years—or even e-cigarettes, which I understand do help some people wean themselves from the habit of smoking regular cigarettes. So we need to ban flavoured tobacco e-cigarettes because they are a risk in encouraging children to smoke, which is a terrible habit that can be a lifelong addiction, and that does great damage to people’s health for all the reasons that are pretty well known.

Now, one of the side effects of the regulations in this bill is that by increasing more regulations for e-cigarettes and even banning the flavoured ones, it’s going to drive people to the illegal cigarette market, which is run by the natives of Ontario, and that is criminal. That is against the law. It’s a contraband product, and as we make it more and more difficult for people to buy cigarette products off the store shelves, we drive them to the illegal, contraband, native Indian market of illegal cigarettes, where there is absolutely no control: We have no idea what kind of products are going into the cigarettes, and of course there’s no tax for the government either.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments? The member for Windsor–Tecumseh.

Mr. Percy Hatfield: Thank you, Speaker, and Happy Pink Shirt Day today.

I’m pleased to be able to stand in my place and comment on G45. I always say, when I stand up to speak to this bill, that the “G” really stands for Gélinas. France Gélinas, the member from Nickel Belt, has presented this House with 11 bills over the past six years dealing with menu labelling and restrictions on tobacco. It really is a team effort, Speaker, as has been mentioned: It will take all of us to improve this legislation and pass it into law.

I have good friends in Kentucky. One of my buddies down there smokes cigars. There was a crackdown in Kentucky, and he couldn’t get the flavoured tobacco he used to smoke. He called me up and was looking for it up here. Well, I couldn’t find it up here for him either. He had to settle for some Cubans that he couldn’t get down in Kentucky.

I mention my buddy—he lives just outside of Fort Knox, in a town called Vine Grove, and owns a golf course there, Lincoln Trail. His brother and his sister-in-law don’t smoke cigars, but they chew tobacco. I always got a kick out of that, because they have these paper cups with paper towels in them, and they look like they’re taking a sip, but they’re just spitting the tobacco juice into the cup.

Once—I guess it was in grade 9 in New Brunswick, grade 9 or 10—somebody slipped me a little piece of chewing tobacco. The teacher said, “Hatfield, what are you doing? What are you eating?” So I swallowed it, and I’ve never touched it since. If you’ve ever swallowed chewing tobacco, Speaker, you’ll know what I’m talking about. It was a good thing it was science lab and there was a sink there, but I’ll tell you, I’ll never try that stuff again. I don’t smoke, and I don’t encourage people to smoke or to chew tobacco.

And happy Pink Shirt Day, Speaker.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The Minister for Children and Youth Services and women’s issues.

Hon. Tracy MacCharles: If I may just indulge for one minute and say it could also be Pink Skirt Day. I would say to my wonderful colleague from Windsor–Tecumseh: Pink Skirt Day or Pink Scarf Day, I think, can work well with Pink Shirt Day. It’s all for a good cause.

Speaker, I’m pretty excited about this bill, Bill 45, the Making Healthier Choices Act, probably for three reasons.

First, I am the Minister of Children and Youth Services, so I’m always interested in and supportive of anything that helps support kids and youth make healthier choices and have healthier outcomes in their lives.

Secondly, I am a mom of two kids. They’re teenagers now, so, since I’ve been in the Legislature for almost four years, I have to adjust my thinking. I don’t have young kids anymore; I have teenagers. Nevertheless, I look at many things through the eyes of my kids, and I think this bill really speaks to what I feel is important as a mother. I think we all want the same thing as parents and caregivers: to see our kids make healthier choices.

The third reason I’m excited about this bill is because I sense there is agreement amongst all the parties that this is the right thing to do. Perhaps some things need to be looked at in further detail in regulation. However, I think it’s a great bill, and I’m sensing a lot of support around the House for that, so that’s excellent.

Whether we’re talking about tobacco products—and I think the bill speaks to the research there, and there’s new research particularly on the menthol piece, which is why we’re proposing to include it in the ban—the e-cigarettes element of it or the menu labelling, I think it’s all good, Speaker. I’m absolutely thrilled that there seems to be consensus and support across the board.

Thank you, and happy Pink Day.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from London–Fanshawe has two minutes.

Ms. Teresa J. Armstrong: The member from Barrie mentioned child obesity, and that is something that is on the rise. Our lifestyles have changed over hundreds and thousands of years. The lifestyle challenge that we’re facing today is processed food. People eat processed food every day in their diet. Some people eat it because they are in a hurry; they’re busy, busy people. Some people don’t have the time to create those healthy meals. That does lead to problems.

Even when we’re parking our cars—when we talk about exercise is where I’m going. When you’re going to the store with your child, to the grocery store, don’t complain about the parking spot that isn’t close to the store. Just park in the back. Park in the back and then just walk to the grocery store or wherever you’re going to do your shopping. Make it part of something you do every day. Take the stairs instead of the elevator. Changing your own behaviour will maybe reflect on your peers and even your colleagues here in the House and your children.

There’s one thing I saw in the news today, Speaker, that there are communities taking a lot of initiative when it comes to healthy food choices.

Oh gosh, I’m out of time. Maybe I’ll talk to that later in another comments and questions.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Further debate?

Mr. Norm Miller: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m so pleased to see you this morning and to have the opportunity to speak to Bill 45,

An Act to enhance public health by enacting the Healthy Menu Choices Act, 2014 and the Electronic Cigarettes Act, 2014 and by amending the Smoke-Free Ontario Act. This bill has three schedules.

Maybe I’ll start with

schedule 2, which is the Smoke-Free Ontario Act. “The sale of promotional items together with tobacco products is prohibited.” I don’t have a problem with that. “The sale of flavoured tobacco products is prohibited....” As other members have talked about, these flavoured tobacco products are used to entice our youth to smoke and are used as a gateway product to get them hooked on smoking, and then, of course, they end up with an addiction to it. So I don’t have a problem with that.

I did meet with the Ontario Korean Businessmen’s Association, and certainly tobacco products are a big part of their business. As long as they’re legal, they want to look out for that a little bit, I guess. They had problems with the ban on menthol cigarettes, pointing out that pretty much all menthol cigarettes are legally purchased now. Their concern is the unintended consequence that, if they’re banned from legal outlets, it will be a new business for the contraband market in the province of Ontario. That does seem to make some sense.

I do wonder whether menthol cigarettes are like the other flavoured tobacco products—really a gateway product. I’m not a smoker, but I wouldn’t think that they really are. So I think there is some sense in what they’re pointing out.

Obviously, as a province we should be doing all we can to reduce smoking for all the health reasons etc.—costs to the health system, people’s lives—but we’re not really addressing the issue if we don’t also address contraband cigarettes. We haven’t done a very good job in the province of Ontario of addressing contraband cigarettes. I believe 40% to 50% of cigarettes sold in this province are contraband.

The Ontario Korean Businessmen’s Association pointed out that Quebec is doing a much better job. They passed Bill 59 a few years back, and saw the contraband percentage go from 48% down to 18% in just three years. So it seems to me that we could learn from whatever they’re doing in Quebec. One of the differences, they explained to me, was that if you’re caught with contraband in Quebec, they can seize your car, much like in hunting. If you’re doing something illegal in hunting, a conservation officer in Ontario can seize various things. That would probably be quite a deterrent from people wanting to use contraband cigarettes. It seems to have been effecttive in Quebec.

They also raised the question of, if you’re underage, you can’t buy cigarettes but you can smoke them legally in Ontario, so why not ban underage smoking and make it at least a ticketable offence? I think that makes sense. It probably would get rid of the groups of kids outside of our schools in the smoking section, if they knew they were going to get a $50 ticket, like a speeding ticket, for underage smoking. If you can’t buy them, why would it be legal to smoke them? These are some suggestions that I think would be more effective if the government’s goal is to reduce smoking eventually to zero in the province of Ontario.

Now

schedule 3 in this legislation has to do with e-cigarettes. I must admit, I’m a little conflicted on that one because you hear stories—I’ve had people writing to me about the benefits of e-cigarettes, in that those people want to use it as a way to stop smoking or greatly reduce their smoking if they substitute e-cigarettes for regular cigarettes.

I think some of the unknown factors are, just what is in the vaping products? I was asking some of the other members if they knew who regulates that. I gather it’s unregulated. Really, it is pretty important to know what exactly the nicotine or other chemicals, or who knows what, is in the actual vaping products. That would be something that needs to be looked at and, certainly, probably further studies are required. But we have to be careful that it is, I think, a useful tool for people who are trying to quit smoking.

The other side of the question is, though, and where I’m sure the tobacco companies would like—those e-cigarette companies would use it as a gateway product to get more people hooked on nicotine, to get more people starting with vaping and then eventually switching to regular cigarettes. So certainly there are some concerns.

The other

schedule is

schedule 1, the Healthy Menu Choices Act. That’s to do with having calorie counts. Let me see here: “Owners and operators of regulated food service premises are required to display the number of calories in each standard food item sold at the premises, as well as any other information required.” I don’t have a problem with that, especially because it doesn’t require, from my understanding the ma-and-pa, one-off operations to do that, which I think would probably be expensive and tricky for them.

It’s meant for: “‘Regulated food service premises’ are food service premises that sell meals for immediate consumption, and that belong to a chain with 20 or more Ontario locations”—I think that’s an important qualifier—so the bigger chains that would have the resources to be able to provide caloric information.

I like the “educate versus legislate” approach, and I think we need to do what we can to encourage people to have healthy lifestyles. In terms of food, that’s a balance of eating various food products. You seem to see different reports all the time about what is healthy or what it not healthy for you. As I mentioned some of the times I’ve had an opportunity to comment on this bill, I’m reading a book called The Big Fat Surprise, which is basically telling us that all we’ve been told about fat being bad for you, a lot of it, is not necessarily true and that saturated fat, like you’d find in meat, for example, or butter or eggs, is actually needed by you.

I think the most important thing is that we have balance in our diet, but the other thing that really goes along with it is that we get enough exercise. I think we need to be doing things to encourage that, in our youth, especially, so they develop habits of enjoying exercise and having lifelong exercise.

Yesterday, I was pleased to attend the Ontario Bike Summit. In the past I’ve had private member’s bills to do with paved shoulders. I think that’s important, because we need to provide safe places for people to ride so they have an opportunity to get more exercise. I think we should be designing our schools with safe cycling routes to the schools. There’s a new school plan for Parry Sound that’s going to be a JK to high school, and I hope it’s in a location where the kids can ride to school. I think it’s important that we provide opportunities where they can get exercise in a safe manner.

I did want, just in the minute I have left, to mention that I also did meet with the Heart and Stroke Foundation. One of the things that they were asking about—their ask is to restrict marketing to kids to do with food and beverage. They point out that 31.5% of Canadian children and youth are overweight or obese; that the majority of marketed foods and beverage products—as much as 90%—are high in salt, fat, sugar and calories; and that the screen time among children and youth is seven hours and 48 minutes per day.

I agree with that suggestion they have, that we should restrict marketing to kids, because I think it’s easy to get them to be consuming more of the things that are bad for them and breaking that balance. So I do think that’s a recommendation makes sense.

I can see, Mr. Speaker, that I’m out of time, so I can’t get into the other suggestions that the Heart and Stroke Foundation had, but thank you for the opportunity to speak.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: It’s a pleasure to rise to comment on this bill.

As you’re well aware, Speaker, it was our health critic, France Gélinas, who persistently introduced private member’s bills to ban flavoured tobaccos and to require posting and informing of the public of the nutritional content, the fat content and the caloric content of foods. I think that when this bill is eventually passed, her contribution needs to be recognized.

There’s no doubt the member from Muskoka made a very good argument about the need for more exercise for young people and for people in our society generally. I have no argument with that, Speaker; he’s right. But I have to say that it would help a lot of people to know, when they purchase food in a restaurant, when they purchase food in a fast food restaurant, how much fat they’re taking in, how many calories they’re taking in, how much sugar and, frankly, as I think was mentioned, how much sodium as well.

People are often trying to juggle a variety of priorities in their lives, and giving them the information on exactly what their food contains so they can decide whether they’re going to get something that is extremely fat-heavy or extremely calorie-heavy will help them make healthier choices. And that’s what this is.

It isn’t prescribing to people what they must eat, but it is allowing them, if they’re trying to control their weight, if they’re trying to eat in a way that’s healthier—giving them the information so they can make the decisions that are in line with their priorities, not the priorities of a company that tries to increase its sales by increasing the salt, sugar or fat content of its foods.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Jim McDonell: I spoke yesterday on this bill. I just wanted to add a few comments to the speaker today. We certainly encourage the bill in many aspects but we’re a little concerned about some of it, like e-cigarettes.

I have a letter from a couple of constituents. I just want to paraphrase a little bit from one of them: “I am genuinely disappointed in what the government has done. You have basically lied to the population. You are going to make it difficult for people with a nicotine addiction to stay off cigarettes. You are ensuring that lifelong smokers will die of smoking-related diseases.”

If you go through it, he’s talking about the e-cigarettes and basically making it very difficult for many people to use them in certain cases.

I have another one: “I would like to address the proposed Bill 45 conditions regarding [e-cigarettes] and their effect on the industry, human health and our facility. Our studies, and many others worldwide, show that electronic cigarettes are the most effective stop-smoking aid available.

“Treating e-cigs as tobacco is dangerous to this industry, people’s health and freedom, and just plain scientifically inaccurate. I would like to request a short discussion” on the subject.

I have a little bit of concern. This is something I hear the government say, that while there’s no science to show that there’s a problem with them, they’ll look at them and maybe unrestrict them in the future, which is very hard. It’s just a funny way of going about things. If you look at the components that are in it, it is just vapour. I know many people who have struggled for years and years to try to quit smoking. Most have not been able to. This is a system that has come along that seems to do the trick and is not dangerous to anybody else with them.

I do like parts of the bill, certainly the part about the calories. I think that’s important. People struggle with weight, and that would certainly be a step in the right direction as far as getting help for those as well.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Ms. Teresa J. Armstrong: I wanted to finish off what I was talking about earlier, about how communities are rallying around food security and helping people make healthy food choices.

One of the concerns, too, is how many people are now accessing food banks. I know that that number is on the rise, people accessing food banks because of difficulties, financially, that they find themselves in with regard to—as I mentioned before—underemployment, precarious employment and working for the minimum wage.

This morning on the news there was the city of Orillia. They had a storm and many trees in their city park were overturned. They’re looking at replanting these trees, which is a great thing for the environment. The food bank has suggested that they plant fruit trees because, again, when we talk about food security that people are concerned about, and making healthy choices, the food bank says that it’s very expensive to purchase fresh fruit. This would be very helpful and help the food bank bring fruit into their facility when people are accessing food.

Anyway, I just wanted to mention that because we talk about healthy eating, and healthy eating is in everyday life. When you’re at home and also when you’re going to that restaurant and making those healthy choices, the knowledge that the people will have on those menu labels will certainly help that aspect of it.

The other piece that I have also talked about was the e-smoking. I think that in this particular case there is some tightening up in the bill that we need to really look at under the e-cigarettes section. I look forward to the information that’s going to come to committee to make that possible.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Eglinton–Lawrence.

Mr. Mike Colle: I just want to say that I think this legislation, like many pieces of legislation, is really about trying to make the general public aware and more sensitive to some of the challenges that may be out there in terms of whether it is driving or whether it’s the food we eat. I think in the long run that awareness really enables the consumer, the member of the public, to make a better decision.

As you know, the opposite of that is that you get bombarded by all these ads by—God love them—the corporations that want to make billions. If you sit down at night and watch a hockey game, all you’re getting is big fat hamburgers. There’s one pizza now: a cheeseburger pizza. How gross. We wonder why young people are getting into bad habits, why diabetes is on the rampage.

Smoking, this cancerous habit, has killed millions of people. By the way, as you know, your good friends at the big tobacco companies, Mr. Speaker, denied that smoking was linked with cancer. We remember that. They challenged everybody. Talk about lawsuits. They were just incessant in blocking any attempt to recognize that smoking was linked to cancer. This fight continues, and that’s why in this legislation we’re looking at e-cigarettes: because they’re trying to hook young kids on smoking through the back door, through these e-cigarettes.

It says, “Under 19, you can’t buy them.” This is an ongoing attempt—I think it’s a good attempt, in the right direction—to control these big corporations that you’re so fond of, Mr. Speaker.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Thank you, member from Eglinton–Lawrence.

The member from Parry Sound–Muskoka has two minutes.

Mr. Norm Miller: Thank you to the members from Toronto–Danforth, Stormont–Dundas–South Glengarry, London–Fanshawe and Eglinton–Lawrence for their comments.

The member from Toronto–Danforth was talking about the fact that we need more exercise. I completely agree with that. That’s why I think we need to look at all ways of getting our youth to pick up habits where they exercise for their entire life. That’s why I think it would be a good idea to look at safe cycling routes to school and try to make it a policy of the government that we create safe cycling routes to school to provide our youth the opportunity to get exercise on a daily basis as they get themselves to and from school.

He also talked about the calorie count that will be required by restaurants. I have no problem with that. I think generally with food, we should be moving to less processed food, more making meals from scratch.

E-cigarettes were talked about by the member from Stormont–Dundas–South Glengarry. I think that balancing the benefits of them versus the harm they may cause if they become a gateway product is very important.

The member from London–Fanshawe was talking about food banks. I note that the member from Sarnia–Lambton did have a private member’s bill that would give a tax credit to farmers for extra product that they donated to food banks. I thought that was a good idea, and obviously the government did as well, because it got adopted into the government’s Local Food Act. Congratulations to the member from Sarnia–Lambton for coming up with that good idea and getting it implemented.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Further debate?

Ms. Laurie Scott: I note that the Progressive Conservatives are certainly keen on health today as many of us are up speaking to it today. It’s Bill 45 we’re debating today, the Making Healthier Choices Act, 2014. A similar version was brought in in the last session by the then Minister of Health. Now we see a revised bill including e-cigarettes. Compliments to the NDP from Nickel Belt, France Gélinas, for her tenacious promotion of healthier acts that are brought into the Legislature, e-cigarettes being one of them.

The bill touches on three sections: the Healthy Menu Choices Act, 2014; the Smoke-Free Ontario Act; and the Electronic Cigarettes Act, 2014. I’ll just try and talk a bit on all those topics in the few minutes that I have this morning.

We’ve certainly all spoken about obesity in the Legislature this morning and previously. We had the Heart and Stroke Foundation in last week speaking about the rise of obesity here in Ontario. We all know it’s no secret that about half of our population does not meet the physical activity and healthy eating recommendations made by our health organizations.

The member that was up previously mentioned Share the Road, the increase of cycling. I also have many hats in the Legislature, but tourism and culture is one of those. And certainly sharing the road, the paved shoulders, is something that I think all three parties have worked on collectively, that when highways need to be resurfaced that the shoulders are paved. That helps not only with our healthy activities and cycling, but actually is a great tourism boom to many of our areas. I know up in Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock we’re trying to increase the tourism and the cycling paths that we do have.

I know there was a Share the Road event last night, so I wanted to put a plug in for the member from Parry Sound–Muskoka, who has brought that bill in two, three times now?

Mr. Norm Miller: Yes. And there was somebody from Haliburton there last night, I think.

Ms. Laurie Scott: There you are: Someone from Haliburton was there last night. I actually have gone and cycled with them a few times.

As a nurse before I entered the Legislature, there is no question that the obesity rates that you see increasing are certainly going to be drastic to our health concerns going forward, in treating the diseases that are affected by obesity. Some 28% of children aged two to 17 are overweight, which is extraordinary. Of course, you hear of younger people having heart attacks and strokes and high blood pressure. It’s definitely time for some changes to occur.

Education, of course, is the best thing we can do to make them more aware; get the whole family involved. Banning junk food in the schools—you saw that happen and then have you concerns from the principals about the fact that the kids then leave the schools to go out to get the food they actually want to eat; and there’s a health concern about them not being on school property and crossing the roads. There is a lot of concern there. So, again, the whole, I think, integration when they’re younger from their parents about eating healthy is probably a more wholesome strategy, and ramping up our daily physical activity.

I know the World Health Organization has warned us that the number of overweight children under five years of age is estimated to be over 42 million, and almost all of them are in developed countries like Canada. So I guess we can say fast food is very popular. When I was travelling a long time ago the introduction of McDonald’s, I think it was in Japan, had increased the obesity immensely over there. There was just a marked difference—just something I remember from way back.

Mr. Robert Bailey: You must have been just a child.

Ms. Laurie Scott: I was just a child travelling. Thank you, the member from Sarnia–Lambton.

The menu labelling: It’s suggested that it’s for chains that are over 20 stores. I think that you see that is going to happen more voluntarily in the smaller businesses, the smaller restaurants, because people are actually looking for it. Certainly, when I go into a business, I will look to see if there’s any labelling, calorie counts, to see what the healthiest option is to eat.

These things come eventually. We, as legislators, can bring in a certain amount of rules and regulations, but we have to get the education going from home. So we have to do a bit of family responsibility—you see lots of companies that join in: the Big Bike you see for Heart and Stroke through the communities; the whole community sees 50-some people on bicycles that are raising money for Heart and Stroke. That helps influence.

The smoke-free part of it I have spoken to a lot, in the sense of the contraband tobacco, which is a huge issue the government does have to deal with. I spoke again when the Heart and Stroke were in, but, really, almost a third of all tobacco sales in Ontario are contraband. I have a newspaper

article from My Kawartha here where the OPP seized contraband tobacco in traffic stops outside of Curve Lake, which is just outside of my riding, in the Peterborough riding. I have to say that I’ve seen a lot of, let’s say, open trunks in some of my communities, and contraband tobacco is being sold from those trunks. That hurts our small businesses. I know the member from Haldimand–Norfolk has spoken many times about that.

Most of the contraband tobacco, if they do the butt surveys from the high schools—I know it seems strange that they go and pick up cigarette butts, but the butt surveys from the high schools show that at least 30%—and some statistics show as high as 50%—are contraband tobacco. And you don’t know what’s in that contraband tobacco. Smoking is hazardous for your health: proven time and time again. But the fact is that this is not controlled tobacco. You don’t know what’s in it, so it’s even more harmful, we can say, that it’s being sold, especially to our young people.

Addressing the consumption of tobacco: I had at one time in Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock the highest incidence of lung cancer related to smoking; that study was done. I think education has changed that somewhat now: more options or more availability for people to understand the hazards of smoking that are there.

E-cigarettes are interesting. I’ve had quite a few constituents actually send emails in. I understand the impact of a smoke-free culture, but the e-cigarettes, especially older people—I’ll say over 50—actually find them very effective in helping them quit smoking. There seems to be a balance that needs to happen, where the science is about e-cigarettes, because there are actually people out there who find that—“electronic cigarettes” is what I’m saying, “e-cigarettes”—electronic cigarettes actually are helping people stop smoking. I know actually a member in the Legislature who uses that as smoking prevention.

So there is the balance out there. I know they want the culture to not be seen smoking in respect to e-cigarettes, but I think that you do have to look at the other side: about e-cigarettes actually helping people to quit smoking.

I know that I only I have a couple of minutes left, but I want to try to hit all the topics that I wanted to talk about.

When we talk about Participaction, I do hear that when the schools have increased activities—so-called—for physical activity, I think a lot of schools sometimes don’t fully do the physical activity we’re thinking of. We don’t want kids to sit in chairs and twist their ankles and just move around a little bit. We actually want them to either get outside at recess—and sometimes in the very cold months they can’t—but have some alternatives where there is actually activity that causes the heart rate to go up a little.

I don’t say they have to go into a full-bore workout, but some type of activity that actually causes them to increase their heart rate and make it count as some physical activity that is actually productive to keep them in shape. Again, this is like a pattern that they hopefully carry on throughout their life to make sure they can be involved in sports, if they can be.

I know it’s very expensive out there. I want to shout out to the Canadian Tire Jumpstart program, which helps kids that don’t have enough money to participate in sports, especially hockey that happens a lot in our small towns, but it’s so expensive it actually restricts a lot of kids from joining in physical Participaction.

We’re happy to see Bill 45 come forward. We’re happy, when enough speakers have spoken, to get into committee to make some changes. I raised a few concerns, Mr. Speaker. Thank you very much for that opportunity this morning, as my time winds down.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Michael Mantha: Again, it’s always a privilege standing on behalf of the good people of Algoma–Manitoulin, talking to this bill, Bill 45, this morning.

I want to bring a negative and a positive to the tobacco discussion. The negative is, I quit smoking 20 years ago, and every day, I continue to quit smoking because it’s always difficult. It has been a lot easier over the course of the years. The difficult part about it now is that one of my family members has been weak to tobacco and has succumbed to peer pressure. I look in his eyes and stand in front of him knowing that I lost my father to lung cancer and I lost my mom to heart disease.

I have to say that there’s a good part to this story. My father-in-law, Jean-Guy Constantin, is in Gogama. Bonjour, mon beau-père. He was cutting wood in the backyard—

Mr. Victor Fedeli: His business card would be that long.

Mr. Michael Mantha: What’s that?

Mr. Victor Fedeli: His business card would be that long.

Mr. Michael Mantha: Yes.

He was cutting wood in the backyard, and do you know what? He choked on a little blackfly. When he choked on the blackfly—and he was a smoker at the time—he coughed up some phlegm, and in his phlegm there was a little bit of blood. My mother-in-law took him immediately to the hospital in Timmins. While he was in Timmins, he got an X-ray done. The X-ray showed a small growth. Within a day, he was on the surgery table. The cancer was removed. He has been in remission for seven years. It’s because of that little blackfly.

So the next time you hit a blackfly on you, don’t hit him too hard; he might be coming around to save you.

That’s a positive story that came out of this. My father-in-law is still around today. I love him. He’s a grumpy old man, but he’s my father-in law.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments.

Hon. David Zimmer: Speaker, I just want to make a couple of points. First of all, I support this legislation. I’m particularly impressed with the e-tobacco ban. I too had parents who smoked and paid the ultimate price for that, so for some very personal reasons and for all the right policy reasons, I think this legislation, particularly as it relates to e-cigarettes, is the right thing to do.

Having said that, I want to point out to this House that we’ve been debating this bill now for 10 hours—10 hours. Listening to the debate, it’s clear that all parties support this piece of legislation. In fact, over 60 members from the three parties have spoken to this bill. So we should move this bill ahead, get through second reading, and get the bill out to committee so that we can hear the public’s views on it and bring it back for third reading.

It’s just strange that we’ve spent so much time on a piece of legislation that all three parties seem to support, that over 60 members support and have made the effort to speak to.

Why do all three parties support it and why did over 60 members take the time and trouble to speak in support of it? It’s because on all three points—on the food labelling, it’s the right thing to do. The food labelling concept developed a couple of decades ago in California, so everything you buy in the store now has the nutritional component of it. This is the next logical step: to have that same information on the restaurant products, on the menus, that you find in products that you buy off of the shelf at a supermarket.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Rick Nicholls: Again, I want to compliment my colleague from Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock for her excellent presentation, even though it was only 10 minutes. She’s a health professional, and she knows her stuff.

When we talk about this particular bill, Bill 45, the Making Healthier Choices Act, a couple of things come to mind for me. I remember back when I was a teenager and it was kind of cool to smoke. That was the cool thing—no pun intended, with regard to menthol cigarettes.

The other thing is that my father was a smoker and he also smoked pipes. I remember green Sail tobacco. I found myself looking at the cherry-flavoured tobacco and found that it had a nice fragrance. You weren’t realizing or really caring that much about the impact it was having on your lungs and the potential cancer threats and so on.

The other thing I wanted to talk about is the fact that there’s childhood obesity out there. The member from Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock mentioned in her speech that we need to get our children more active. It’s going on okay in the grade schools, but in high schools, if I had my way, I would like to see health and physical education mandatory in every year that the students are there. It was mandatory for me. I think that kids need to be more aware of the importance of physical activity in their lives.

The last thing I wanted to talk about was the fact that there are approximately 13,000 people in Ontario who die every year—that’s 36 people a day, and it’s tragic. We’ve got to take a look at the burden on our health care system. Anything we can do to alleviate and move children and even adults away from smoking will be a greater benefit for our health care system.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Windsor–Tecumseh.

Mr. Percy Hatfield: Indeed, it’s a pleasure to stand in my place today and make comments on the response of my friend from Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock.

I know when she mentioned the junk food in high schools, I was reminded of the time I was out and about and bumped into a woman—I think she was the president of the student council at Essex high school. She said, “Do you think the government’s ever going to revisit that?” I said, “I don’t think so. Why?” “Well, we used to get a share of the profits from the machines at the cafeteria, and we don’t get it anymore because our kids aren’t eating the food in the school anymore because they’ve taken the bad stuff out. They’re going”—as the member said—“across the street, down the road, and getting the fast food.” We know the fast food isn’t good for you.

Smoking’s not good for you, either. My mom and dad smoked, my wife’s mom and dad smoked, and 37 years ago, when my son was born, we said, “No more smoking around the kids.” So that put an end to that. They all stopped smoking. Two of them are still alive, which is a good thing.

The habits that we pick up when we’re young stick with us forever. I was saying the other day how my mom used to bake homemade bread, and I would do everything I could to eat food with my bread. I forgot to mention my mom’s homemade baked beans: I would get bread and butter and make those homemade baked-bean sandwiches. I miss them so much, Speaker. If they had them downstairs, I’d have them for lunch.

But those are habits that we pick up when we’re young, and they stick with us forever. They stick with us forever. So if we can break the habits now, get the kids eating healthy now, maybe they’ll continue that, and their children will pick up those good habits instead of the bad habits that I picked up when I was young.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Haliburton-Kawartha Lakes has two minutes.

Ms. Laurie Scott: I appreciate the comments made by the member from Algoma–Manitoulin. I don’t think I’ll forget that, now that you’ve mentioned the blackfly story and your father-in-law. It’s very important to watch those little signs that do occur in which you need further health investigation.

The Minister of Aboriginal Affairs: It’s always good to have healthy debate in the Legislature. As I said, this bill was brought forward in the last session. They could have sped it up and put it through then, but anyway, we are very happy to continue the debate. There’s never enough debate on healthy choices that we have here.

The member from Chatham–Kent–Essex: I thank him for his comments, and the member for Windsor–Tecumseh, certainly, about the school story, a very valid school story about the fact that you can’t force kids to do what you think is good for them. That’s why you have to start the education early. Hopefully, the parents have instilled some good eating habits for them, at least half the time, that you can eat properly, but it certainly is a concern out there.

I wanted to mention that Health Canada is actually doing some research into the e-cigarettes, so I say to the government, maybe we should watch for the Health Canada studies before we make any final declaration on the electronic cigarettes issue of this bill because, as I said, some people actually find they help them in smoking cessation.

I think that there is always a lot that we can do to promote healthy choices, but we should maybe be mindful of how it’s actually going to affect the public. We used the young children, for banning junk foods in the schools: It still didn’t stop them from eating junk food; we just put them in more of a dangerous situation as they leave the schools.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Further debate?

Mr. Randy Pettapiece: I’m pleased to stand in this House today to speak to this bill.

I know that if we don’t listen to our constituents, we are not going to be successful in this position. What I want to do is read a few letters that were sent to me—

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): It’s pretty noisy, down in the third party area. If you want to have a major discussion—and you’ve had about nine of them—if you’d like to go outside with it, I’d appreciate it.

Member from Perth–Wellington.

Mr. Randy Pettapiece: Thank you, Speaker.

This letter was sent to me by the Perth District Health Unit. They are members of what they call the Think Team. I had three of them in my office during constituency week. They’re all young folks, they’re very concerned and they’re very supportive of this bill.

“We see an increasing number of our peers using electronic cigarettes in Perth county. Since there is currently no legislation regarding electronic cigarettes, they can be sold to and used by youth. We have worked with local school boards to restrict the use of electronic cigarettes in our schools, but further legislation is required to protect our peers from this new product. We are working on a campaign to educate youth about electronic cigarettes, but this legislation will help prevent youth from using them in the first place.

Electronic cigarettes are normalizing the act of smoking and reversing all of the good work tobacco control has accomplished. The Making Healthier Choices Act would restrict electronic cigarettes from being promoted and sold to youth under the age of 19.

“The tobacco industry flavours tobacco products as candy and fruit to make them more appealing to youth. Chew tobacco, cigarillos and electronic cigarettes are all flavoured tobacco products and are most popular among youth. Making tobacco products less appealing by not including any flavouring will prevent youth from starting to use tobacco products. The Making Healthier Choices Act would prohibit the sale of flavoured tobacco products, including menthol, which would decrease the likelihood of our peers and future generations of youth from using tobacco products.”

Now they go into the menu labelling: “Finally, menu labelling of caloric values in restaurants would also be beneficial to Perth county youth. Menu labelling will help our peers to make more informed and smarter decisions when it comes to eating out. Today’s youth are busy and constantly on the go, so having the option to make healthy and nutritious decisions when they eat out is important. Being able to see directly ... in a pamphlet or on a website. The Making Healthier Choices Act would require restaurants with 20 or more locations to post caloric information on their menus and menu board.

Menu-labelling legislation is a key component of the Healthy Kids Strategy, which aims to reduce childhood obesity by 20% over five years.

“We hope that you agree with our position and will support the passing of this bill, which is crucial to the health of Perth county youth. If your

schedule allows,” they would like to

schedule a meeting with me, which they did, Speaker. Three of them came in to speak to me.

This letter is signed by members of the Think Team: Kelsey Ramseyer, Zach Misener, Alli Van Bakel, Amanda Roberts, Megan Speiran and Dani Schoonderwoerd. It’s also signed by the medical officer of health, Dr. Miriam Klassen, who is with the Perth District Health Unit. I personally know Dr. Klassen, as she was my family doctor at one time, until she got this position as the medical officer of health.

I also received a letter from another constituent, Brian Reid, who is from Mitchell. He writes: “I am writing to convey my strong support for the tobacco provisions in Bill 45, the Making Healthier Choices Act.

“Amendments to the Smoke-Free Ontario Act included in Bill 45 would ban flavourings, including menthol, in all tobacco products. Adding enticing flavours to tobacco products is one of the key ways that tobacco companies entice youth and young adults to experiment with tobacco. A government that is serious about reducing the unacceptable toll of illness and death from tobacco use must do everything possible to prevent tobacco companies from seducing our youth. Tobacco companies will likely claim that only adults use tobacco with menthol, but recent research tells a very different story.

“The latest Youth Smoking Survey shows that almost a third of youth who smoked in the past month smoked a menthol cigarette (and almost half of those who had used some type of tobacco in the past month had used a flavoured product). This is 2015—we have known for more than 50 years that smoking causes cancer—it is time for governments to stop bowing to pressure from the tobacco companies. I urge you to oppose any demands from the industry for an exemption for menthol. Governments should be doing everything they can to prevent youth from starting to smoke and to encourage people to quit. Banning all flavours in all types of tobacco products would make a valuable contribution to this effort.

“Bill 45 also contains critical legislation to regulate electronic cigarettes. The bill would ban the sale of e-cigarettes to minors, limit their promotion, and ban their use in workplaces and public places like restaurants, where smoking is already banned. I understand that e-cigarettes might help some smokers quit, but I also believe that if they are not appropriately controlled, we could see a new generation of youth addicted to a new form of nicotine. As well, I personally do not want to be exposed to whatever chemicals the vapour may contain.

Much more research needs to be done on these products, and until we have more information about their impact, the government is right to exercise caution.

“Once again, I would like to reiterate my strong support for these really important tobacco control initiatives. We have made great progress in creating a ‘smoke-free Ontario,’ but with 18% of Ontarians still smoking—a rate that hasn’t changed since 2009—much more remains to be done.”

This letter was sent to me by Brian Reid from Mitchell, as I have already mentioned.

Speaker, I think we as politicians and elected officials to this House need to listen to our constituents—that is why we’re here—and to support or not support legislation that they ask us to do. Certainly, these two letters are in support of this bill. I’m pleased that they took time not only to write these letters to me but to visit my office.

We had a chat, a very good chat, with these people from the Think Team. They’re just young high school students who are leaders in their community, in their high school, who took the initiative to set up this meeting to express their concern—not their concern with the bill, but their support for this bill. I do appreciate that. I think that’s what we do as legislators: We have to represent, and we should represent, the constituents in our riding.

Speaker, I have another letter here from the Heart and Stroke Foundation. Actually, my wife canvasses our neighbourhood for the Heart and Stroke Foundation and goes around. They do great work promoting healthier lifestyles. Certainly, smoking is on their radar.

I don’t have enough time to read the whole letter. It was sent to me by Mark Holland. I’m sure everybody got this one. It was sent to me by Mark Holland, the executive director, Ontario mission, and national director of children and youth at Heart and Stroke Foundation; and Rowena Pinto, the vice-president of public affairs and strategic initiatives of the Canadian Cancer Society in the Ontario division. I’m sure all members got this letter, so they can read it at their leisure.

Again, Speaker, thank you for this time. I think this bill is certainly something that is supported by members of my community.

Second reading debate deemed adjourned.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): It being 10:15, this House stands recessed until 10:30 this morning.

The House recessed from 1015 to 1030.

Introduction of Visitors

Mr. Steve Clark: I’d like to ask the House to welcome members of CUPE Ontario who are here today with their president, Fred Hahn, for their lobby day. I know that many members will be meeting with them. Also, I understand that all members are invited to join Fred and his colleagues at 5 p.m. for their MPP reception in the legislative dining room. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Mr. Speaker, the world works in mysterious ways: my friends the Tories welcoming CUPE. Anyway, nonetheless, as New Democrats, we’d like to welcome, on behalf of all the Legislature, Fred Hahn, Carrie Lynn Poole-Cotnam, John Camilleri, Kelly O’Sullivan and our good friend Henri Giroux that I know the member from Nipissing knows very well.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Speaker, I do things in tandem with my other two House leaders, so I want to join them and join all the members in welcoming the hard-working members of our public service, represented by CUPE Ontario and my good friend Fred Hahn. All of you: Welcome to Queen’s Park. Thank you for your public service.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Before we continue, I would like to know that we can get through introducing guests without heckling. That would be very helpful.

Ms. Lisa M. Thompson: Today our page from Huron–Bruce is page captain Rahul, and I’m pleased to welcome his mother, Priya Pandya, to the gallery.

Ms. Harinder Malhi: I’d like to introduce page captain Japneet Kaur’s mom, Jaswant Kaur, and father Robin, who are joining us in the gallery today.

Mr. Vic Dhillon: April is Sikh Heritage Month, and I’d like to ask for unanimous consent to wear a pin commemorating April as Sikh Heritage Month.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Brampton West is seeking unanimous consent to wear the pin for Sikh Heritage Month. Do we agree? Agreed.

Mr. Paul Miller: I’d like to introduce Dave Murphy. Dave is with CUPE, and he represents Hamilton Health Sciences.

Mr. Yvan Baker: I’d just like to welcome to the Legislature the grade 12 students from Silverthorn Collegiate. They’re taking an elective grade 12 politics class. I would ask you to join me in welcoming them to the Legislature. Thank you for coming.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: I do want to welcome our friend Henri Giroux from North Bay to the Legislature today.

Mr. Vic Dhillon: I’d like to thank two people who were instrumental in having these pins made, and they’re here today: Gursimrat Singh Grewal and Baljinder Sara. Baljinder is here with his family: Virpal Kaur, Parneet Kaur, Anisha Kaur and his father, Gurdev Kaur, and Balvir Kaur. I’d like to welcome them to Queen’s Park today.

Ms. Peggy Sattler: I’d like to welcome Len Elliott, a constituent of mine from OPSEU, who is here today in the gallery, as well as my friend Heather Skolly, who’s here today with CUPE.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further introductions?

It is now time for question period.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Point of order.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): If the member is not here, we’ll stand down the lead question.

Mr. Steve Clark: Speaker, point of order: We don’t have on our list that the Minister of Finance is not going to be here for question period, so I’m seeking some guidance. Is he coming?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: He’s on his way.

Mr. Steve Clark: So we can stand down our leads?

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I’ve indicated that it’s a courtesy that is offered, of who is here or not here. That courtesy doesn’t always mean that that person will or will not be here.

That said, you always have the option to stand down your lead question, if that person needs to hear the question.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): One moment, please.

I will have that stood down, and we may end up having to go through extra rotations. I understand that. I am going to ask that the table restart the clock. Once I make the indication of how, the member from Timmins–James Bay will stand on a point of order and ask me something.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Yes, Mr. Speaker. We were unaware that we were going to have the lead stand down. We have gone to get our leader. She’s not here just now, so we’re going to have to go with question 3.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Excuse me. One moment, please.

I’m going to look to the House leaders for a nod on this. If we take a five-minute recess for everyone’s purposes—we will take a five-minute recess. This House stands recessed for five minutes.

The House recessed from 1037 to 1041.

Oral Questions

Ontario economy

Mr. Victor Fedeli: My question is to the Minister of Finance. Two years ago, your deficit was $9.2 billion. Last year, your deficit soared to $10.5 billion. Yesterday, you said you were pleased to report your deficit grew again to $10.9 billion.

Minister, the only deficit target you should be pleased with is when you hit zero. You’re heading the wrong way. You’re getting further away from balancing, not closer. You’re now spending $29 million a day more than you’re bringing in. In fact, in today’s five-minute delay, you spent $105,000 more than you took in.

Minister, you’re failing families, you’re hurting seniors, and you’re putting them into an ever-deepening hole. Why should anyone believe you can balance the budget when you can’t even reduce the deficit?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock, please.

Be seated, please. Thank you.

Interjection: You’re overachieving.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I will act immediately on anyone who tries to get in heckles while I’m standing.

Minister of Finance.

Hon. Charles Sousa: Well, the member opposite has noted the challenges that have been before this province over the last 10 years. Recognizing how tough it was in 2008 and 2009—not just in Ontario but all across Canada, similar to the situation that happened with the federal government—Ontario has taken action by stimulating growth. This year, we beat our targets yet again by $1.6 billion. We do so by moving the trajectory to balance by 2017-18, as we said we would. We’re on target. We’re achieving results.

We’re the lowest-cost government because of some of the tremendous actions we’ve taken on Treasury Board to reduce our spending, find savings and keep our fiscal house in order. Contrary to the opposition, we do want to stimulate the economy to ensure that we grow GDP, make sure that everyone is employed and make sure people and their families are better off.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Minister, we realize it’s April Fool’s Day today, but you have to stop trying to fool the people of Ontario. Your own 2013 budget document listed the projected deficit at $10.1 billion. The fact that you fluffed it up to a fake $12.5-billion forecast only to announce it came in at $1.9 billion didn’t fool us, Minister.

Let’s go back to the secret internal cabinet documents we obtained during the gas plant scandal file. They talked about doing just what you did. Use a fake number for the deficit that was “never a real expectation. It was a deliberate policy....”

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Minister of Transportation.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Even that fake, inflated number was $10.1 billion. You can’t even meet your own fake number, Minister.

When are you going to come clean and tell us the real state of Ontario’s economy?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Minister?

Hon. Charles Sousa: Mr. Speaker, this is serious business. The member opposite is slamming the province; he’s talking down Ontario, which has worked hard—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Carry on.

Hon. Charles Sousa: Ontario has now, since the recession, surpassed almost every jurisdiction around the world to create 500,000 net new jobs. Ontario has become the top destination in all of North America, beating out Texas, New York, California and every other province for foreign direct investment. We’re attracting investment, and that’s because they know that we have a very competitive, and ensure that we have a very competitive, business climate to keep our taxes low to attract that investment.

We’re creating jobs. We’re stimulating growth. We’re on a track to balance by 2017-18, as we said we would.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: To the minister: Now that we’ve heard the spin, let’s hear the facts. The Conference Board of Canada said you can’t balance the books by 2017-18. In their report titled How Bad Is It?, the Ontario Chamber of Commerce said, “Ontario’s fiscal situation is becoming increasingly dire....” and “we are likely to reach a state of crisis unless the province ... changes the ways it does business.” Moody’s lowered their outlook from stable to negative. Fitch downgraded us to AA-. Everyone but you understands there’s a serious problem in Ontario. Minister, when will you finally take the advice of experts and change course?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Minister?

Hon. Charles Sousa: The Conference Board of Canada also states that Ontario, the government of Ontario, has the most integrity of its numbers than any other government in Canada. The Conference Board of Canada also states that Ontario is expected to lead all of Canada with growth in GDP because of the stimulus package that we put in place.

RBC, TD Bank and a number of economists recognize the tremendous work that Ontarians have done, that this province and this government have done, to stimulate growth in order—not only so that we can create greater revenue and greater wealth, but we are the lowest-cost government in Canada because of the efforts we’ve taken. We have controlled our spending, we’re keeping our fiscal house in order, to take a balanced approach, not extreme measures that put people in harm’s way or cut 100,000 people from their jobs, as the opposition has recommended.

Ontario economy

Mr. Victor Fedeli: To the Minister of Finance: Your deficit, which grew from $9.2 billion to $10.5 billion—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Newmarket–Aurora, come to order.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: —ballooning to $10.9 billion this year, is proof that you’re not listening to the experts. You’re not changing the way you do business.

Minister, here’s why all the focus on your deficit is so important: The Auditor General said, “Ontario’s debt continues to grow faster than the province’s economy, which could have negative implications for the province’s finances.” But her —

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I’m going to ask the members from Ottawa–Orléans and Hamilton East–Stoney Creek to come to order.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Oh, that shouldn’t be interpreted as encouragement.

Please finish.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Thank you, Speaker.

The Auditor General’s biggest concern was “the ‘crowding out’ of other spending....” We now have less money for the things our citizens expect from the province. We’re starting to see front-line cuts in health care and education, just as the auditor warned. Minister, are you too proud to admit you’re wrong?

Hon. Charles Sousa: Mr. Speaker, this side of the House will not fall prey to being reckless when it comes to cutting and slashing and burning the very services that Ontarians depend upon. We’re also not going to be reckless in our spending, recognizing that we must maintain our house in fiscal order and hold the line—and we are, because we’ve become the lowest-cost government per capita in funding and spending by any government in comparison.

We also note this: We have become one of the lowest-tax jurisdictions anywhere in the world, beating out every US state when it comes to the combined corporate income tax. We have also maintained very effective stimulus packages to encourage that investment and create those jobs that are so critical to families in Ontario. By so doing, we take that balanced approach. It’s a measured approach that we said all along we would do. And we are disciplined and determined to balance by 2017—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Minister, we’re seeing death by a thousand cuts right now, today, here in Ontario. Nurses are being cut at hospitals right across the province. We all have examples. Here are some from my hometown of North Bay: 94 full-time and 34 part-time front-line health care workers, including nurses, have been cut; more than 50 positions, including professors, at Nipissing University, have been cut; 43 workers from Ontario Northland have been cut.

Will you admit, Minister, that your wasteful, scandalous and mismanaged spending is reducing services, hurting—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order.

Please carry on.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Will you admit that your wasteful, scandalous and mismanaged spending is reducing services, hurting Ontario’s children and putting the most vulnerable at risk?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Minister?

Hon. Charles Sousa: Mr. Speaker, I’ll admit that the member opposite is confused because he is—what’s the term?—sucking and blowing. On the one hand, he’s suggesting that we make cuts. He’s suggesting, “Go across the board and find greater savings, and put people in harm’s way,” just as he ran on a platform to cut 100,000 jobs from Ontarians. Now he’s saying, “Wait a minute. You’re cutting too much.”

Mr. Speaker, we’re not doing that at all. We’re taking a balanced approach. We’re transforming the way government does business. The President of the Treasury Board is going line by line to ensure that everything we do is creating greater value for Ontarians, ensuring that we hold the line on our spending.

What they’re not doing is stimulating the economy. They’re not supporting transit and investment in infrastructure that enables us to do better. That is exactly what this budget is going to be all about. It is enabling us to succeed and surpass other provinces.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Minister, on your watch, seniors and our most vulnerable have seen their hydro rates triple to the point where they need to decide whether it’s food or warmth. But that wasn’t enough for you. Your thirst to find even more money to feed your spending addiction seems to have no bounds. You cut cataract surgeries, you cut diabetes testing strips, you cut physiotherapy for seniors: This is exactly the crowding out the Auditor General told you would happen if you didn’t drastically change course.

A $10.9-billion deficit built on self-interest is not a cause for celebration; it’s a legacy of disgrace, and you should be ashamed of it.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Minister?

Hon. Charles Sousa: Ontario was hit very hard during the recession. In fact, we were hit the first and the hardest, and we stayed the course and held our ground; Ontarians stood tall and strong, continuing to reinvest in enabling us not to feel the shock of the recession as deeply and as long as other places around the world.

He referenced some recommendations by Don Drummond. Not only have we surpassed all the work that was being recommended, we have now made even greater strides to ensure that we sustain even more savings going forward.

What the opposition is not talking about is investing in our people, investing in education and our skills and training, investing in infrastructure and transit that enables us to provide for more jobs and maintaining a very competitive and dynamic business climate so that we can create more jobs in our province. Mr. Speaker, that’s what we are doing.

Privatization of public assets

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is for the Deputy Premier. Can the Deputy Premier tell me on what page of the Liberal platform Ontarians can find the Liberal plan to sell off Hydro One and local electricity utilities?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I think the member opposite knows full well that in our budget—which they rejected not once but twice, the most progressive budget in living memory—we included in that the asset review because we are committed to building the infrastructure that this province—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order. Thank you.

Finish, please.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: We are committed to building the infrastructure that the people of this province are demanding of this government. We need more investments in transit. We need more investments in transporttation. We need more investments in the vital infrastructure that people depend on.

We have to pay for that, and that’s why we’re looking at our assets to see how we can recycle those assets to build the infrastructure of tomorrow.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Speaker, I know it’s April Fool’s Day, but most Ontarians have realized that that budget is anything but progressive.

Nick from Brampton wrote to the Premier, and he was good enough to copy my office on his letter to the Premier. This is what Nick said: “At no time did you ever state during your election campaign to the voting public that your platform included selling any valuable asset owned by the taxpayers of Ontario.”

What does the Deputy Premier have to say to people like Nick?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I would expect that the leader of the third party would have read the budget. I can refer you to page 20 of the budget. Let me read this to you: “The government will look at maximizing and unlocking value from assets it currently holds, including real estate holdings as well as crown corporations such as”—wait for it—“Ontario Power Generation, Hydro One and the Liquor Control Board of Ontario.”

Page 4 of the Ontario Liberal plan says: “Our Moving Ontario Forward plan includes a balanced and responsible approach to paying for these investments.

“The funds will be from dedicated sources of revenue....

“—asset optimization: $3.15 billion or 10.9%.”

It was in the budget, and if ever we wanted evidence that the third party did not read that budget, Speaker, we have it today.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please.

Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Speaker, maybe the Deputy Premier should have been honest and said “sell-off” instead of “unlocking” and “optimizing,” and people might have been able to get it.

Lena is another person who wrote to me. Lena said: “Private, for-profit ownership of hydro will mean higher rates, lower dependability and an end to public control over this vital function.”

Can the Deputy Premier give people like Lena any guarantee that the Liberal privatization plan won’t mean higher bills, less reliability and an end to public management of an important public utility?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Not only were we very, very clear in the 2014 budget—which was twice rejected by the third party, which triggered the unnecessary election—but the third party also integrated our fiscal assumptions into their platform. So not only did they not read our budget; they did not read their own assumptions in their own budget.

She knows we have a mandate to move forward with unlocking the value of assets. We’ve been very clear: We are looking to unlock the value of those assets so we can invest in schools, in hospitals and in roads and bridges, and create jobs and build that necessary transportation and transit infrastructure.

Despite what the NDP says, we asked the council to retain the government’s long-term ownership of the assets’ core components. “We recommend keeping all three companies,” said Ed Clark.

Privatization of public assets

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My next question is also for the Acting Premier. Investing in transit and transportation isn’t a one-time deal. It’s going to take investment year in and year out. The Liberals’ answer is a one-time sell-off of Hydro One and local utilities. They’ll get a lump sum of money, but that money is going to run out, and we’ll be left paying higher hydro rates to private companies that have no accountability, no oversight and no interest in what’s good for Ontarians. When the money runs out, we’re going to be right back here, and the Premier will have to find something else to sell off.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Minister of Economic Development—second time.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: What happened to long-term, sustainable solutions for building and paying for infrastructure in this province?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Minister of Finance.

Hon. Charles Sousa: I appreciate the question. Listen, we recognize how important it is for us to reinvest where we can, to make even more money for the shareholders of this province, who are the people of Ontario, the taxpayers, who own these crown corporations.

We also made it clear in the 2014 budget that we would look at these endeavours and these initiatives in order to maximize value to Ontario. We are not going to put our heads in the sand and pretend that there isn’t something that we can do better. That’s why we’re taking these initiatives.

The member opposite also should know that we used this as a platform in our last election, which the people of Ontario endorsed.

I just want to read these three principles that we abide by on this very issue:

“

(1) The public interest remains paramount and protected;

“

(2) Decisions align with maximizing value to Ontarians;

“

(3) The decision process remains transparent, professional and independently validated.”

We’re working in the interests of Ontarians, who own these very crown corporations.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: If the Liberals sell off Hydro One, this is going to be the result: Ontarians will pay higher hydro bills. The Premier will get a big lump of cash—there’s no doubt—but when the cash is spent, Ontarians will still be paying skyrocketing hydro bills in this province, and there won’t be any money left for any other infrastructure investments.

Why can’t this Liberal government see the big picture when it comes to our hydro assets?

Hon. Charles Sousa: First off, rates in Ontario are, and always will be, set by the Ontario Energy Board. But secondly, we have established a Trillium Trust, a trust to reinvest in transit. Any proceeds that are gained from selling off land or shares of corporations that we may own, that aren’t providing enough support for the people of Ontario, are invested into this trust, which is dedicated to transit.

This is about investing in transit, investing in infrastructure, to make us even more competitive. That has a greater return for Ontarians. For every dollar we invest, we get $1.60 back. That’s a much better return.

We want to ensure that we protect the interests of the public, and it’s an ongoing benefit. What we will not do is sell off, something that happened with the 407, recognizing that we lost an annuity there. That is exactly what we’re not going to do. We’re going to make every effort to ensure that we—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Hydro One makes money each and every year. We can leverage public control to manage hydro rates. We can help with climate change, strengthen manufacturing and create jobs.

Robust, reliable, profitable, public hydro actually helps fund investment in public transit and transportation annually in this province, because it puts money annually into the public coffers.

Will the Liberal government finally abandon this ridiculous scheme to sell off our hydro utility and Hydro One?

Hon. Charles Sousa: We can always do better with respect to our crown corporations. We know that there are a number of dividends we receive, and we want to protect them. In fact, we want to enhance them and provide for greater return and greater value for money in regard to them. That’s what we’re doing here, Mr. Speaker.

The member opposite doesn’t seem to feel it’s necessary to invest in transit—with respect to ensuring that we become more competitive—with roads, bridges and infrastructure across this province. She feels that we don’t have to do that, by way of looking at ways we can repurpose or revalue some of our assets to maximize that opportunity. They would rather we not do anything—and that is not an answer to the problem.

Municipalities

Mr. Randy Pettapiece: My question is for the Attorney General. I think we can all agree that rising municipal insurance premiums must be reined in. In fact, we did all agree to that. Last February, I introduced a private member’s resolution to implement a comprehensive, long-term solution to reform joint and several liability for municipalities. My motion received unanimous consent from all parties in this Legislature.

Minister, a year ago, your government agreed that this was a serious issue and that it must be addressed. That’s why municipalities were so shocked when you told last year’s AMO conference that you wouldn’t do anything about it.

Municipalities want to know: Why did you change your mind and why won’t you help them?

Hon. Madeleine Meilleur: I want to thank the member for his question. Legal liability reform is an important and complex issue that significantly affects a diverse group of stakeholders in Ontario. The law commissions in Ontario, other provinces and other countries have examined this issue and determined that the rule of joint and several liability is the fairest way of dealing with a shortfall in damage. After considering the feedback we received from all stakeholders—from all stakeholders—Ontario has decided not to move forward with changes to the rule in joint and several liability at this time.

Mr. Speaker, we have looked at it. We have consulted with many stakeholders. This joint and several liability process has been in place for almost a hundred years and it will continue to be.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Randy Pettapiece: Again to the Attorney General: For years, this government has been promising action. I’ve seen the Attorney General’s files. They show that you sought advice from trial lawyers. They show that you sought no advice from insurers, municipalities or taxpayers.

At the recent ROMA/OGRA conference, I spoke with many municipal officials. Overwhelmingly, they are furious. It’s time to respect the will of municipalities across Ontario and respect the resolution that was passed in this House by all parties last year. Will you do it? Will you support the resolution I tabled two months ago?

Hon. Madeleine Meilleur: I’ll say that to the member of the opposition: If your son has an accident and he’s totally disabled, I will not be able to look in his eyes and say, “Your dad and I, when it was possible to do so, changed the rules, and now you have to rely on welfare for your benefits.” I wouldn’t be able to do that. That’s why, after the consultation, we decided that we will continue with this joint and several liability.

By-election in Sudbury

Mr. Gilles Bisson: My question is to the Deputy Premier. Can you confirm if the Premier’s legal team has been in discussion with the legal teams for either Pat Sorbara or Mr. Lougheed in order to coordinate their defence?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: We’re delighted that the member from Sudbury has joined our caucus. He is a very, very fine member.

The member from Timmins–James Bay knows full well that we’re taking this seriously, that the Premier is co-operating completely with the investigation. He also knows that this investigation is taking place outside of this Legislature, by people who are competent and qualified to perform such investigations.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Well, definitely no answer, just more rhetoric on the part of the government. So I’ll ask it again: Is the Premier’s legal team in discussion with the legal team from both Mr. Lougheed and Mrs. Sorbara when it comes to co-ordinating their defence in regards to the bribery allegation? Yes or no?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Speaker, as I said earlier, there’s an investigation taking place. The Premier and all of us are co-operating fully with that investigation when asked. That investigation is taking place outside of this Legislature, which is where it should be taking place.

Minimum wage

Ms. Indira Naidoo-Harris: My question is for the Minister of Labour. In my riding of Halton, a number of organizations have advocated for better income supports, including increases to the minimum wage, tax relief for low-income earners and better protections for workers across Ontario. Groups like Poverty Free Halton, Community Development Halton and the Halton Poverty Roundtable have all asked for stronger supports for workers.

In my community, workers were pleased when the minimum wage was increased to $11 an hour last June, but we have all seen what inflation does to the cost of living. Minimum wage workers are particularly hard hit by the soaring costs of goods in Ontario.

Speaker, through you to the minister: Can you please explain how our government is addressing this issue for minimum wage earners in the retail, food service and other sectors in my riding?

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Minister of Labour.

Hon. Kevin Daniel Flynn: Thank you to the honourable member from Halton for the question. As you will know, last summer our government brought in the eighth increase to the minimum wage since we were first elected in 2003. Those of you in the House will remember that, in 2003, when we took over from the party across, working for an hour at minimum wage in Ontario earned you $6.85—even less if you were a student. We’ve come a long way.

Last spring, we announced that the minimum wage would increase from $10.25 to $11. We introduced legislation that would tie further increases to the minimum wage to those same increases we see in the consumer price index. That legislation died on the order paper when the party across triggered the election we had last spring. Through the leadership of our Premier, though, Speaker, we brought that legislation back last fall and we’ve been able to pass it. This follows through on our commitment to tie annual increases in the minimum wage to the rate of inflation.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Indira Naidoo-Harris: Mr. Speaker, I’m proud to be a member of a party that is standing up for the hard-working minimum wage earners across our province.

The minister is correct. We have come a long way: from $6.85 an hour to $11 per hour and, soon, $11.25 an hour. Some are advocating for an even higher minimum wage. But some small business owners in Halton have concerns that rising minimum wages might result in slow growth or even job cuts. With global economic uncertainty and the evolving nature of our economy, the way forward must be carefully considered. We must balance the needs of businesses while ensuring that our minimum wage earners keep up with the rising cost of living. Speaker, can the minister please explain how he plans to reach this balance?

Hon. Kevin Daniel Flynn: Thank you again for the supplementary. All hard-working Ontarians need to know that the income they have will keep up with the cost of living. Part of the reason we tied annual increases in the minimum wage to the CPI was to take the politics out of the decision.

Another reason was to ensure that businesses in this province have a predictable and fair way to plan for the annual increase. Each year, the government announces the new minimum wage before April 1. Businesses then have six months to prepare for that increase, and it comes into effect October 1.

This new process that we have in place was part of the recommendations of the Minimum Wage Advisory Panel. It advised the government on the best approach to take. We heard from experts; we heard from workers; we heard from businesses. They want stable and predictable increases to the minimum wage.

I’m proud to say that on this side of the House we’re bringing forward the ninth increase to the minimum wage since we took office, and that families and businesses in this province now have the time to adequately prepare for it.

Environmental protection

Mr. Ted Arnott: My question is to the Minister of Economic Development. Why is the minister reneging on his government’s commitment to the Rouge National Urban Park and putting the whole thing at risk by playing petty, partisan political games?

Hon. Brad Duguid: This member may not realize it, but he’s speaking to a member who has dedicated the last 30 years of his life to preserving this park. It is in my own backyard as a member from Scarborough. It’s something I’ve worked on since I was a young lad, working in these halls as an assistant. So for you to question my commitment to this park is absolutely ridiculous. For the member to question this government’s commitment to this park—this was the government, under David Peterson, that saved the Rouge park.

This is the only government right now that’s standing up to make sure that the current protections we have in place are maintained, which is part of the agreement the federal government made. We will not sell out our commitment to that next generation—to ensure the park is there for them to enjoy. Even if you want us to do that, we’re not going to.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Supplementary?

Mr. Ted Arnott: More than two years ago, Ontario signed an agreement to transfer land to the federal government to help create the Rouge National Urban Park in Scarborough. However, the minister recently decided to go back on his word and derail the entire process for no good reason. He even has the gall to use it for Liberal fundraising.

The Globe and Mail recently said this: “Ontario’s justification for pulling out of the deal doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.”

The Globe went on to say that he’s “playing games,” and, “It appears that the interests of his government don’t include letting the federal Conservatives announce a new national park in the GTA during this election cycle.”

When will the minister keep his word and stop holding up the Rouge National Urban Park?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock, please. Be seated, please.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I gave some people a warning about me standing and their continuing to heckle.

Answer, please.

Hon. Brad Duguid: Mr. Speaker, this government remains absolutely committed to a federal national park at some point in time when the federal government is willing to live up to their part of that agreement. They were supposed to put forward legislation that was equal to or greater than the protections that we currently have in Ontario today. I have a legal document that verifies that that is simply not the case, and I’ve had legal representation take a look at that just to ensure that our position is credible, and our position is absolutely credible. The current federal legislation is much weaker than the protections that land has now.

You’re asking us to pass on that land to weaker federal protections. We’re not going to do it. We’re not going to do it.

Mr. Speaker, the federal government ought to work with us to put in place the proper protections for these—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Be seated, please.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The same holds true on this side.

New question.

Executive compensation

Ms. Peggy Sattler: My question is to the Acting Premier.

Speaker, today Londoners learned that double-salary deals in lieu of leave for senior university executives are not new in the sector. In fact, the president of Western University received an earlier double payout in 2009 when he was at the University of Waterloo.

Acting Premier, when you became aware of the double payout in 2009, why did your government do nothing to prevent these kinds of deals, which result in million-dollar salaries, from being negotiated by university boards of governors?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Speaker, we passed Bill 8. We introduced Bill 8 prior to the election. We would have passed it sooner had an unnecessary election not been triggered. When we reintroduced the legislation, the NDP voted against the legislation that would give us the opportunity to control executive compensation.

We acknowledge that there is a problem with executive compensation in the broader public sector. That’s why we introduced Bill 8. That is why we are moving forward to develop the frameworks for appropriate executive compensation.

So, Speaker, they’re just a little bit late to this party. Why they voted against the legislation that will give us the right to actually control executive compensation in the broader public sector—makes their accusations a little bit hollow.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Peggy Sattler: On Monday the Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities said that the public has a right to know that tax dollars are being spent properly, but on Tuesday he said that universities are autonomous institutions and can make their own hiring and contract decisions.

Acting Premier, Ontario students are facing the highest tuition rates in Canada, increasing class sizes and more classes taught by contract faculty than ever before.

How can the public be assured that taxpayer dollars are being spent appropriately when university boards of governors are allowed to write double-salary clauses into the contracts of senior university executives?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Speaker, let me repeat: Bill 8 gave the government the ability to actually control broader public sector executive compensation. That is a good piece of legislation. This House passed it without the support of the NDP, so how they can stand up and criticize us for not taking action, when they voted against the very action that they’re demanding now, is just beyond me.

We are on this. We are addressing this issue because we do believe that the taxpayers of this province, the citizens of this province, should know why people are paid what they are paid. Those are the answers that we are developing right now as we speak.

Forest industry

Mrs. Kathryn McGarry: My question is for the Minister of Natural Resources and Forestry. Ontario’s forestry industry contributes about $11 billion to our economy and supports about 200,000 direct and indirect jobs. This includes Cherry Forest Products in Puslinch, Ontario, very near my riding of Cambridge, which employs over 100 workers.

In 2013, Ontario exported $4.9 billion in forest products. Forestry operations can only realize their full economic potential when there’s synergy between operations. Sawmill operators rely on selling their residuals in order to maintain their economic viability. Therefore, it’s imperative that Ontario finds innovative ways to put wood waste to work. One potential use of wood waste is biomass energy.

Through you, Mr. Speaker, to the minister: What is our government doing to support innovative uses, such as biomass, for forestry residuals?

Hon. Bill Mauro: I want to thank the member for the question. There are in fact some very encouraging signs in the forestry industry right now. We are seeing a number of new sawmills opening on a regular basis. We are now harvesting upwards of 14 million cubic metres of wood. In the depth of the recession in forestry, we were down to about eight million cubic metres.

In fact, a new industry in northern Ontario called biomass pellet production has just begun. A couple of weeks ago, I was in Atikokan with my colleague the Minister of Northern Development and Mines, and with the support of $4 million from the Northern Ontario Heritage Fund, we have seen two biomass pellet production facilities open, one in Wawa and one in Atikokan.

It’s good news for the forest industry. It will help them ride through the cyclical ups and downs that we have traditionally seen in the industry. It’s new. It’s creating more jobs. It’s another good piece of what we’re seeing happen in forestry, a piece of the industry that did not exist until these two operations got started, so we’re very proud of this piece in northern Ontario.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Mrs. Kathryn McGarry: I thank the minister not only for the answer but also for his commitment to supporting Ontario’s forestry sector.

Maintaining a market for forestry residuals is a key part of supporting the economic viability of mills throughout Ontario. I know that this investment will go a long way in supporting this very important sector.

By increasing our use of biomass energy, Ontario can reduce our use of fossil fuels and reduce our carbon footprint. Unlike oil, gas or coal, which emit carbon absorbed from the environment thousands of years ago, there’s no additional carbon released from the combustion of biomass; it emits the same carbon that it absorbed just a few months or years ago. In fact, two million tonnes of wood pellets could produce 3.4 billion kilowatt hours of electricity per year. This is sufficient to power about 285,000 homes in Ontario.

Speaker, again through you to the minister: What is our government doing to put wood waste to work and support—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Minister.

Hon. Bill Mauro: In 2003, all political parties made a commitment to close coal in the province of Ontario. We’ve followed through on that commitment, and I know our Minister of the Environment and Climate Change is very happy that we’ve actually begun to do that.

Speaker, my point is that that policy of closing coal in Ontario has led directly to the conversion of two of those old coal plants, one in Thunder Bay and one in Atikokan. That conversion of those coal plants has indirectly, I would say—if not directly—led to the spawning of this new industry here in the province of Ontario. In the Atikokan context, the Rentech facility that is located in Atikokan now has a contract for years out to supply biomass pellets to the Atikokan generating station.

What we now have is a piece where we’ve gotten out of coal, and we’ve created a new industry in the province. It’s green, it’s sustainable, it has engaged First Nations, and it’s a long-term new approach to providing forestry in the province of Ontario. It’s a good piece on a variety of levels.

Taxation

Mr. Jeff Yurek: My question is the Minister of Finance. Minister, the loss of a loved one is never easy. We all know that the time period after is extremely difficult for all Ontarians.

The Estate Administration Tax underwent changes this year. These changes broaden the criteria of what will be affected, shorten the amount of time that is allowed to comply with these rules to 90 days, and increase the penalties for misfiling by adding jail time of two years.

Why is your government making it more difficult for Ontarians by implementing these changes?

Hon. Charles Sousa: I appreciate the question. Certainly, the member opposite recognizes the importance of ensuring integrity in our revenues, ensuring that everyone pays their appropriate share and their fair share. That’s all this is about, Mr. Speaker. We’re asking people to comply with what is the law and nothing more.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Jeff Yurek: Minister, what you’re asking these people to do within a 90-day time period may be impossible for some, to actually get the documents. If they don’t do so, they’re going to jail. That’s ridiculous, Minister.

We on this side of the House hope your government isn’t trying to find new ways to tax people after they die. Are you scrambling to cover your government’s financial mismanagement?

Hon. Charles Sousa: The member opposite wants us to ensure that we manage appropriately the revenues and the expenses, to ensure that everything is running effectively, to look at the underground economy, to ensure that everybody pays their fair share.

We recognize that families struggle in those times, and they prepare ahead of time. There are a lot of lawyers involved. There are trust funds; there are estates. There are a number of mechanisms that are being used which actually preclude certain things from being done. Appropriately, we want to make certain that everybody abides as they should. That’s all this is, Mr. Speaker.

The member opposite from that party, who’s asking for this to even be implemented, in terms of providing for all the measures necessary to balance the books—this is not about balancing the books. It’s just about making sure everybody complies.

Social Assistance Management System

Miss Monique Taylor: My question is for the Acting Premier. This morning’s report gives us only a glimpse of the Liberals’ SAMS fiasco—at least 57 problems; defects identified on a weekly basis—yes, Deputy Premier, I’m coming to you. Staff are still overwhelmed nearly five months after SAMS started creating chaos for social assistance recipients.

Will the Acting Premier finally admit that the Liberals got us into the SAMS mess and still, months later, have no clue how to fix it?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Minister of Community and Social Services.

Hon. Helena Jaczek: I was certainly pleased to receive the interim report from PricewaterhouseCoopers this morning and to release it publicly.

This is the interim report. We’re going to be studying it very carefully. We will receive a more fulsome, comprehensive report, in its final iteration, at the end of this month.

I’m really pleased to see that they have taken a very broad look at the issues around SAMS. They’re looking at planning, organizational change management, user experience, stakeholder management and communications, and the transition to operations and governance.

Some of their preliminary findings acknowledge the problems with SAMS. Of course, we, as a ministry—our project team, along with our partners, IBM—have been working literally around the clock to engage the staff and make improvements within the system.

As we look forward, we know that staff do need more support. We acknowledge that, and we will be moving forward in this regard.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Miss Monique Taylor: Front-line staff and families on OW and ODSP can tell this government absolutely everything that they need to know about the failures of SAMS. They can tell the Liberals how SAMS has left them without money for food and rent. They can tell the Liberals how SAMS sent hundreds of private tax details and SIN numbers to the wrong people. In fact, they’ve been trying to tell the Liberals for over a year that SAMS has been a disaster waiting to happen.

Speaker, will the minister table the invoices for the complete cost of a report that wouldn’t be needed if the Liberals actually listened to caseworkers and social assistance recipients from the very start?

Hon. Helena Jaczek: As I’ve said in this House, I do want to acknowledge and thank all our dedicated caseworkers. I see many members here from CUPE and OPSEU. I think they’re well aware that I mean it when I say that we want to work together to in fact make their lives a little more simple in terms of this particular computer system, to make it more user-friendly; and I’m actively engaged in that myself.

In terms of what the report has found, of course, are a number of findings. Some areas for improvement will make sure that all offices are adapting the way they deliver services, so that they can be supported in terms of the business functions in those offices.

We definitely know and we’ve learned—it’s confirmed with this report—that we need to improve the dissemination of best practices across all of some 250 offices in this province.

La francophonie

Monsieur le Président, est-ce que la ministre déléguée aux Affaires francophones peut nous donner un court aperçu de ce que le gouvernement fait pour les 400 ans?

L’hon. Madeleine Meilleur: Premièrement, laissez-moi dire un gros merci au député d’Ottawa-Sud. Je le sais un grand francophile et il représente une grande communauté francophone.

Le Président (L’hon. Dave Levac): Merci. Question?

L’hon. Madeleine Meilleur: L’Office des affaires francophones a reçu de nombreuses applications de plusieurs groupes, organisations et municipalités qui partagent un grand intérêt à célébrer le 400 e anniversaire. Le triage des demandes se poursuit. Elles seront analysées sous peu, et on va annoncer ceux qui recevront du financement pour leurs projets.

Je dois dire que j’ai très, très hâte aux célébrations, que ce soit des expositions culturelles et historiques, que ce soit le festival au parc Champlain Huron-Wendat à Penetanguishene—et nous reproduirons les fêtes du 300 e qui ont eu lieu en 1921—le Festival franco-ontarien à Ottawa, la Franco-Fête à Toronto et tant d’autres célébrations.

J’ai aussi assisté tout récemment au lancement du film sur Samuel de Champlain, produit par TFO, le Rêve de Champlain, le 9 mars dernier à Ottawa, et je vous encourage tous à visionner le Rêve de Champlain produit par TFO.

Le Président (L’hon. Dave Levac): Merci beaucoup. Nouvelle question.

Service clubs

Mr. Jim Wilson: My question is for the Minister of Finance. Minister, last April, I wrote to you after meeting with service clubs in my riding concerning a number of issues that are hindering their everyday operations. On February 19, my resolution on service clubs was debated and passed unanimously with all-party support in this House. The resolution stated, “the Minister of Finance should immediately move to have a standing committee investigate the legislative and regulatory barriers and burdens facing service clubs in Ontario who serve their respective communities and conduct ongoing community service which helps alleviate the demand for publicly-funded services.”

Again, Minister, the resolution, as you know, received all-party support. I ask you: When are you going to strike the committee?

Hon. Charles Sousa: Thank you to the member opposite. I welcome the member’s interest in discussing service clubs around Ontario and the impact they have on our respective communities. I recognize and value the importance and the role that the service clubs provide in our communities. The member is commended for engaging in this discussion and for looking at the issues that provide some added challenges, many of which are municipal and federal in nature.

But we would like to take the opportunity to remind the member that financial audits certainly are regulations that he has requested to review and potentially modify. We have to do that with respect to the federal government. When it comes to HST and other things for the service clubs, it’s something that we’re trying to work on with the federal government as well.

Again, Mr. Speaker, I welcome the member from—I welcome Mr. Wilson’s interest in this. He is to be commended. I look forward to discussing this further in the supplementary.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I’ll give you a hint: the leader of Her Majesty’s loyal opposition.

Supplementary?

Mr. Jim Wilson: I’ve been called worse.

As you know, and all members of the House I think would agree, service clubs are the backbone of our communities right across the province. With their dedication to serving so many deserving causes, their sense of community and ability to bring people together, service clubs make Ontario a better place to live and to do business. While alleviating a significant financial burden off your shoulders, Minister, and off the province’s shoulders in terms of the good work that they do, they often fill the gaps that government can’t do and shouldn’t do.

When we got them together—hundreds of service clubs were represented, some individual clubs; some of the people that filled out my survey were responding on behalf of their region—there were a number of issues, as you said, that were federal, and I’m dealing with the federal government on those, taking your advice. You did write me a letter suggesting that. But we need a committee provincially because many more of their issues were provincial matters; some of them small, some of them big.

Make their lives better so they can help other people make their lives better.

Hon. Charles Sousa: I commend the leader of the official opposition of Ontario for the work and the consensus around this Legislative Assembly to do just that. Certainly, when it comes to issues in regard to property tax, as you know, the not-for-profit service clubs are charged at the residential rate as opposed to the commercial rate. Again, we’re working with municipalities to try to make it even more effective for those service clubs that provide such a tremendous amount of work for us.

When it comes to gaming and the OLG and some of the things that you’ve requested in respect to that, we’re working with the municipalities to look at the charity casino opportunities for them.

Mr. Speaker, when it comes to striking a committee, I encourage all House leaders to put forward something and enable this to take place.

Congratulations for the work you’re doing.

Hospital funding

Ms. Teresa J. Armstrong: My question is to the Acting Premier. Last week, I asked the Minister of Health to stop deep cuts to surgery in London, but he said he didn’t know the specifics. A week later, it’s not just surgeries but thousands of hours of patient care that are being cut. London Health Sciences Centre is eliminating a staggering 97 full-time positions and St. Joseph’s is cutting 24 full-time jobs. The Liberals can’t say they don’t know about cuts to our hospitals that put patients at risk. The real question is: Why doesn’t the health minister care, and why doesn’t this Liberal government care?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: To the Minister of Health.

Hon. Eric Hoskins: I do remember the question from last week with regard to elective surgery. What the member opposite didn’t mention at that point in time about that two-week hiatus—in many hospitals around the province, on a scheduled basis, there are closures of surgeries, of operating theatres, for a variety of reasons; this was a scheduled closure for a two-week period, which occurs from time to time. In fact, despite what the member opposite had to say last week, there were no surgeries that were cancelled. There were no surgeries that were scheduled that were cancelled.

This was a measure that takes place, as I mentioned, from time to time in hospitals, with the full knowledge of the LHIN as well. It didn’t impact patient care. There’s no negative impact in terms of ER or other services, and I’m happy to address the other issue in the supplementary.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary? The member from Kitchener–Waterloo.

Ms. Catherine Fife: To the Acting Premier: Hospitals across the province are laying off front-line nurses and staff because of the Liberal budget cuts. At Grand River Hospital in Kitchener, 45 layoff notices were sent to staff. That announcement came today. That’s on top of the 33 layoffs at Cambridge Memorial Hospital last month.

No one believes the spin that front-line job cuts in our hospitals don’t hurt patients. Families know that fewer nurses and hospital staff mean one thing: Patients will wait even longer for the care that they need.

When will the Liberals stop these reckless cuts to our hospitals, stop the layoffs in Kitchener and Waterloo and across the province, and stop putting patient care at risk?

Hon. Eric Hoskins: I think the member opposite knows that layoff notices do not equal layoffs. In many cases, in fact, around the province, from time to time, there are shifts in programs and services. Often there are vacant positions that haven’t been filled previously, and those positions are removed so that services can be provided elsewhere within a hospital.

In fact, when layoffs are required for certain programs, often the individuals working in those positions are in fact deployed, as is required, because of representative rights and the union representatives—the model that has been created is that that layoff is required to transfer that individual to another area of the hospital.

But the member opposite does know that we have 24,000 more nurses working in this province than we did approximately a year ago. We have 5,000 more physicians working in the province over the same period of time. We’ve increased our funding to hospitals across the province by roughly 50% in the last decade as well.

Student achievement

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): New question. The member from Pickering