VOL. 4 NO. 2 PRELIHINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT IIOUSE OF ASSE~ffiLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.~. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, DECE!·ffiEit 5, 1978

December 5th., 1978 The House met at 3:00 P.H. Ur. Speal.er in the Chair. HR. SPEAKER: Tape No. 38 DW - 1 Order, please! First I should inform hon. members that I have received the report of the Select Committee appointed to draft a reply to the speech of His Honour the Lieutenant Governor. The report is signed by the hon. member for Kilbride (Mr. Wells), the hon. member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan), and the hon. member for Stephenville (Mr. ~kNell). STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS }lR. SPEAKER: Hon. minister. HR. N. WINDSOR: Mr.

Speaker, as minister responsible for the Harmo~1 Corporation it is with regret that I announce a resignation of Hr. James G. Cochrane as chairman of that corporation. Hr. Cochrane was appointed as a member of the Harmon Corporation on January 14th., 1976 and as its full-time chairman on February 7th., 1977. His resignation was originally to have taken effect on November 21st., of this year but in an effort was made to have him reconsider his decision. After discussing the matter with Mr. Cochrane 1 I now regretably confirm his resignation with effect on November 30th.

The Harmon Corporation was created. in 1967 to provide an essential medium for the control and management of the facilities vacated by the closing of the Ernest Harmon Air Force Base in Stephenville •. ·. l'he role of the corporation was intially one of custody and maintenance. Hith the commercial and industrial expansion which has taken place•in the Harnum area the role of the covporation has become one of development and growth. During his term of office~Mr.

Cochrane has contributed significantly to the changing and expanding function of the Harmon Corporation and has given dedicated and distinguished service in the interest of the citizens of the Bay St. Geouge area. Mr. Cochrane is resigning for personal reasons which I respect.! know all my department and the government regrets the necessity of his decision. _ It is of course 94

December 5th. • 1978 Tape No. 38 DW- 2 MR. N. WINDSOR: one which we honour and accept. His successor has not yet been selected but will be announced in due course. HR. SPEAKER: Before recognizing 95

December 5. 1973 Tape No. 39 EC - 1 HR. SPEAKER: the hon. the member for Stephenville, I would like to welcome to the galler~ on behalf of all hon. members, Father Matthew Kean, who is parish priest at Conche; Mrs. Gertrude Bromley, Mr. Gerald Fitzgerald and Mr. Robert Carroll representing the community council of Conche. I know all hon. members join me in welcoming these people to the Rouse of Assembly. SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR.. SPEAKER: Stephenville. MR. T.. McNEIL: Hear, hear! The hon. the member for Mr. Speaker, I would just like to comment briefly on the resignation of }!r.

Cochrane, the former chairman of the Harmon Corporation. I regret that he has rasi~ned over personal reasons, but that as it is, nothing more can be said about it. But I would hope, Sir, that the minister will immediately appoint a new chairman to that corporation and also possibly look at the possibility of structural changes within the department. The Harmon Corporation has been under Municipal Affairs, and when it was first formed Harmon Corporation administered the housing sector.

And now that that responsibility is given over to Newfoundland and Labrador Rousing Corporation, I think that possibly we should look towards putting the Harmon Corporation under the Department of Industrial Development where it belongs, since it is now taking the area of promoting the industrial facilities in the Bay St. George region. SOME liON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PRESEnTING PETITIONS :-IR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. :1R. U. N. ROWE : Mr. Speaker, I take great pleasure 96

December 5, 1978 Tape clo. 39 EC - 2 :1R. 1J. Cf. ROWE ; in presenting a petition to the hon. llouse, received from the residents of Manuel's Cove­ Gillard's Cove in the district of Twillingate. As hon. members are aware, these two communities are on a road on Twillingate Island which joins the main 97 :

December 5,1978 Tape No. 40 AH-1 ~.W.F. OWE: road and sort of loops around and then rejoins the main road again. The petition is from 192 residents of those communities which are on that road, that side road,and it reads as follows - it is addressed to the Minister of Transportation and ColiiDunications -and it says that ''We othe Board of Trustees of the Local Improvement District of Manuel's Cove- G:! llard' s Cove ,would like to draw your attention to the deplorable conditions of the highway going through our communities and connecting us to the town of Twillingate.

We the undersigned residents and taxpayers of Manuel's Cove, Gillard's Cove and Bluff Head Cove would very much appreciate it if you would look into the possibility of having this highway paved in the near future." Now, Mr.

Speaker, this is one of those roads which must be familiar to every member of the House, certainly it would be familiar to every member of the government, every Cabinet minister presently sitting in the House of Assembly,since this time last year, just a year ago,every Cabinet minister of the government was parked in, camped out in Twillingate district fighting the by-election and I am sure, Sir, that bon. ministers - SQf,!E RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. W.ROWE: - Sir, are quite familiar with this road.

It is a road, Sir, which,as I indicated earlier,takes off from the main paved road leading down to the town of Twillingate, loops around to the communities concerned- Manuel's Cove, Gillard's Cove, Bluff Head Cove-and comes back and joins the main road again. Although there are some 400 or more families,or residents,! should say,of these communities, the significance of this road, Mr. Speaker, is not shown by these numbers alone. The road is used by transport trucks, it is used in l fact as a second main road leading down to the main town of Twillingate and Durrells a little further down on Twillingate Island.

It is also used, Sir, by school buses to bring children back and forth to school and aside from being unpaved the road is in many areas a dangerous road. For example, I will make mention from notes which were given to me by Mr. Hynes,the Chairman of the Board of Trustees of Manuel's Cove 98

December 5.1978 Tape No. 40 AR-2 lli!..W.ROWE: Gillard's Cove. he makes mention of a hill which I am very familiar with and I am sure other members are as well. a ninety degree turn at the bottom of a hill near ., 99

December 5, 1978 Tare ~o. 41 NM- 1 '1R. W. ROWE: Bluff Head Cove, over lvhich the bus travels and over which many parents fear there is going to be a very serious accident if something is not done to remedy that situation. The road should, Sir, be upgraded and it should be paved as soon as possible. It : is one of those roads, I suppose there are several dozen of them, main roads of that type,left in the Province today, Sir, that should be paved, should be upgraded and should be paved. The cost would not be t:1at great.

The federal government by virtue of its shared cost proiZrammes regarding t:1e main trunk roads in the Province, the DREE roads and so on, they i1ave taken the major burden off the back of this provincial government and therefore, Sir, more provincial money should be spent on upgrading and paving roads of this type, a road which leads through 2Uu1uel's Cove, Gillard's Cove and Bluff Head Cove. ~ow, Sir, having said that I do hope that the minister will take it into full consideration and I have great pleasure, Sir, in moving that the petition be received by this hon.

House and referred to the depar);ment to lvhich it relates. lffi.. SPEAKER: The hen. member for LaPoile. :'IR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I Would like to support the petition so ably presented 'by my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition on behalf of his constituents in Manuel's and Gillard's Cove on TIVillingate Island. I notice, Sir, the han. gentleman mentioned Bluff Head. I wonder if that was not named, Sir, after the by-election in Twillingate, after all the bluffing that was done by the various ministers. It is not a new name. It has been there for some time. ~·!R. W. ROWE: It has been there for a long time.

SOHE HON. :1EMBERS : ciR. NEARY: But Bluff Head Cove - :'!'.. SPEA.:~ : Order, please~ Order, please~ t.oo

December 5, 1978 Tape Xo. 41 ·~!- 2 't!t. N'EARY: Bluff Eead Cove, Sir, seems to be very appropriate, a very appropriate name at this particular time especially when these people ~;ere bluffed and told that the road would be upgraded and paved. I do ;lope, Sir - 1.01.

December 5, 1978 Tape 42 PK - l MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would require the han. gentleman to confine his remarks to the support of the petition, and without references to historic events of a year or so ago. MR. NEARY: Well,I support the petition, Mr. Speaker, and I do hope that the Minister of Transportation and Communications,who has left his seat at the moment, will see to it that this promise- AN HON. MEMBER: He is not the minister. MR. NEARY: I see. We have a new minister. MR. W. N. ROWE: The_y change so much. MR. F. ROWE: He is changed. MR.

NEARY: - that this promise, along with all the other promises that have been made by this administration to upgrade and pave roads,such as the road to Grand Bay West in my own district out in LaPoile, I hope all these promises, Sir, will be carried out by the administration in the next fiscal year. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of 187 constituents in the community of Heart's Content in the electoral district of Trinity-Bay de Verde.

Sir, the prayer of the petition reads: "We,the citizens of Heart's Content,wish to make it known that we are very dissatisfied with the lack of interest that government has displayed in their efforts to place a resident doctor in Heart's Content.

We feel that a service which has been in existence for the past fifty years should not be discontinued,especially with increased demand for medical services in the area, and the Winterton doctor cannot see some of the patients of the community because he is overworked a 1 ready_." Sir, that is a rather short petition, and in speaking in support of the petition I might add or might mention, Sir, some of the problems involved in this particular case.

About three years ago , Sir, the resident doctor in the community met a tragic death and since that time Heart's Content and the surrounding communities have had a series of short-term doctors in the community. 1.02

December 5, 1978 Tape 42 PK - 2 Mr. F. Rowe: The result of this, Sir, has been that not very many of t he residents of Heart's Content nor the surrounding communities will actually support a doctor when they are not sure whether he is going to be a permanent doctor or not. And that has been the major difficulty in the department tryi ng to get a doctor 103

December 5, 1973 Tape No. 43 :'!R. F. ROWE: to that community because the doctor is not quite sure whether he r.Pn make an actual financial go of it. Also, Sir, the proximity of the Carbonear Hospital is attracting doctors away from the Southside of Trinity Bay and we have a situation >vhere >·Te have a doctor in Hinterton and in Green 1 s Harbour and they cannot take the overload from the central part of the district now.

Now, Sir, the people in Heart's Content and surrounding communities are no~ asking for anything ne~r, it "is something that they have grown accustomed to) and that is a resident doctor for the past fifty years. So it is nothing new that they are looking for. Some people, Sir, may not consider the district of Trinity-Bay de Verde to be isolated. However, when you look at the whole Southside of Trinity Bay,it is close to the sea ~IR. PECKFORD: ~!R. F. ROlVE: It is not isolated. If the hon. minister would listen, Sir, he might get the point that I am trying to make. MR.

PECKFORD: It is not isolated like Random Island. HR. F. ROWE: I said, Sir, some hon. members may think that the district of Trinity-Bay de Verde is not isolated. Hell I can assure the hon. minister, lrho does not seem to :,~ concerned about the health co~ditions of the constituents of the district, that in the 1-rinter that road is on the shoreline and there is indeed isolation when it comes to trying to get to a doctor,and anybody who goes over the Heart's Content Barrens in the Winter realizes what I am talkinq about.

So, Sir, in that sense Trinity-Bay de Verde,~vhen it cones to menical services,is indeed, particularly in the Winter, aver; isolated area, l)articularly Hhen it comes to medical emergencies. Now, Sir, this petition vas presented to me ,,,hile the House was adjourned or O>e:!:ore we prorogued, actually, last qession and the 11rayer is a little stronger thG.:u. it Hould probably be .:.

December 5, 19 78 Tape No. 43 ~~ - 2 ~. F. ROWE: at the present t;l.~~~e beeause the Reart's Content Town Council and ti}'Aelf have been meeting w:!.th officials of t!J.e Department of l:fealth and we can see we have had some verv use.ful discussions and we can see light at the and of the tunnel,and there are two pros~ects now for a doctor for t~at particular area and we have lleen meeting continually w:!.th officials of the Department of Health and I since:rely hope that within the near future a doctor will be placed in residence, fee for service, in the community of Heart's Content.

So, Sir, as a reminder I ask that this petition be placed on the Table of the House and referred t .o the departml!nt to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. .lR. ~Y : Mr·. Speaker, if the hon. !tlnister of Health, Sir, wishes to col!lllleD.t on this petit ion I will gladly yielc> the floor to the minister. mt. WHITE: He is not here. :105

December 5, 1978 Tape e<o. 44 EC - 1 HR. cTEARY : Obviously, Sir, he does not care about the health of the people in the lleart's Content area. Xr. Speaker, this whole matter of the petition raised by my hen. friend on behalf of his constituents, Sir, who do not have the services of a doctor, raises the question of the number of doctors who are graduating from the Health Sciences Complex, from the medical school over on the campus here at the university, who are immigrating to the Mainland of Canada and down in the United States. Mr.

Speaker, when the medical school was opened, we were told by those people 'in the know' at the time that the medical school would take care of all the needs of every community in Newfoundland. necause the difficulty at the time was attracting medical doctors jnto the isolated communities, and we were told that the medical school would take care of all this. Now we find out, Mr.

Speaker, much to our amazement, that we are graduating students out of the medical school which is costing the taxpayers of this Province, I believe, $20 million to $25 million a year and the doctors are not staying in Newfoundland - they have no commitment to stay in this Province, no obligation at all - that they are immigrating to the ~ainland of Canada and down in the United States.

And I feel, Sir, if we are going to solve the problem of the people in Heart's Content and the people who live in other parts of Newfoundland who do not have the services of a medical doctor , that the government is going to have to review its policy as far as training young Newfoundlanders, men and women,to be doctors over here at the medical school. I think we are going to have to impose some kind of an obligation or commitment on the part of these students to at least spend a few years in ~ewfoundland. I believe that is the 1.06

Decembe _r 5. 197S Tape Xo. 44 EC - 2 ~tR. .TEARY: only lilay, Sir to solve this problem. It is, as I say, costing the taxpayers of ~ewfoundland , I believe it is $25 million a year to operate that medical school and we must be all shocked to hear a petition brought in ·to the H-ouse , with the number of doctors who are graduatin g over there every year , a petition brought into the Rouse by p eople 107

December 5,1978 Tape No. 45 AH-1 MR. NEARY: who are screaming out, who are desperately in need of medical services of a resident doctor, So I think, Mr. Speaker, that this raises a very important question. The administration,! would think~would be well advised to raview the poli~y of training doctors over here at the ~edical School and get some kind of a commitment that they remain in Newfoundland and not emmigrate to the Mainland of Canada and down in the United States. AN HON.MEMBER: Hear, hear! PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEBS MR. SPEAKER: Ron. Minister·of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, as required under the Newfoundland Medicare Act,I would like to table the annual report of the Newfoundland Medical Care Commission for the year ending March 31, 1978. MR • SPE.\KER: !-ot. HICIQ!.AN: Ron. ¥inister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, I table the fifth annual report of the Newfoundland Liquor Licensing Board for the period April 1,197U to March 31,1978. And I do that as Minister of Finance and past Assistant Recording Scribe of the Sons of Temperance,Grand Division No.9. I also table the special warrants that have been issued since we adjourned in July. ¥R. SPEAKER: ¥R.

NEARY: NOTICES OF MOTION Ron. member for LaPoile. }!r. Speaker, I ask leave to present a resolution. I presume it is done under Notices of Motion. "lAP. . SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: By leave the hon. member may - No,not by leave, Sir. I think this is the appropriate heading under which to do it. "I'R. SPEAKER: The hon. gentleman is asking for leave. 108

December 5,1978 Tape No. 45 AH-2 Well, Mr. Speaker, I would like to give notice of the following resolution.

Whereas there is constantly recurring evidence of direct miniRterial orders to senior civil servants to bypass the Public Tendering Act; And

whereas this practice defeats the whole intent of the Public Tendering Act; And

whereas these violations can result in hugh losses, misuse and abuse to the Public Treasury; Now Be It Therefore Resolved that a Select Committee of the House of Assembly be .struck at the earliest possible date in this present ~ session to ~ clause by clause the present Public Tendering Act and recommend amendments including specific and severe penalities for ministerial and other violations of its terms. S~ RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: Ron. Leader of the Opposition. MR.W.ROWE: ~r.

Speaker, in the absence of the Premie:z; who I hope is recovering - Any idea- when the Premier is going to be back in the House? ~1R. HICKMAN: By the end of the week. !·lost likely }!onday. MR. W. RotolE: Well,I hope the hon. Premier does recover quickly, Sir. But in the absence of the Premier a question to the Deputy Premier, 109

December 5, 1978 Tape 46 PK - 1 Mr. W. N. Rowe: Minister of Finance and Minister of Justice. Would the hon. Minister of Justice indicate whether they have informed the receivers, Kates, Peat, Marwick,who have announced publicly that they have accepted the proposal from First Arabian regarding the oil refinery' whether the government has informed them of the government's position regarding the First Arabian proposal? Has the government assumed a position? Has the government approved the position? Or has the government notified them that they do not go a 1 ong with the proposa 1 submitted ~.Y First Arabi an? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, to my knowledge government has not notified the receiver or anyone else that we approve or disapprove the proposal made by the First Arabian to the duh appointed receiver. If hon. gentlemen opposite would, you know, wish some further detail with respect to this answer,! would recommend that it be directed to my colleague,the hon. the Minister of Industrial Development,who is very knowledgeable and very much involved in the industrial development of the Province including the Come By Chance bankrupt refinery. MR. W. N.

ROWE: I will take the han. minister up on his suggestio~, althouqh, Sir, when he made the suggestion a pained looked came over the face of the Minister of Industrial Development. Would the minister indicate whether the government has in fact assumed a position regarding the two proposals, one from the Shaheen group, I understand, which on paper at least looked far superior to First Arabian, and the First Arabian proposal for the takeover of the refinery? Has the government assumed a position?

Has the goyernment notified either of the parties or any party involved of its position regarding proposals to take over the Come By Chance refinery? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Industrial Development. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, the first thing I would like to apologize for is the pained expression which I appeared to have presented to the han. member, and I can assure him that it was not the question that prompted it, it was rather the gist of it. 1.i0

December 5, 1978 Tape 46 PK - 2 Mr. Doody: On the question of whether government has assumed a stance vis -a-vis the two proposals which have been presented to the receiver , I can only say that we have taken both under consideration and we are looking toward the best interests of the Province in both respects. The one that has been recommended and 111

December Sth., 1978 Tape No. 47 DW- - 1 HR. DOODY: suggested for a most complete and detailed study at this point is the First Arabian proposal The Peat-Marwick people have told us that on their assessment it appears to be the most reasonable and sensible and tangible one that has yet been offered. We have not seen all the detail on all the arrangementS• I am rather pleased to hear that the han.

Leader ·of the Opposition has said that on paper at least the Shaheen proposal appears to be the most sensible one.I would be delighted to have the authority of the Shaheen organization, or the receiver,or the trustee or indeed anybody in authority to table a copy of tha Shaheen proposal,or indeed a copy of the First Arabian proposal.!!oth of them have been presented to us in strict confidence with great,big,red stamps on each page saying, ''Do not photocopy", "Top-secret", "Confidential", "Do not discuss except with the following~and there are some people in there with whom we are allowed to discuss them.I hesitate to go further than that in this particular case.I think that Peat Harwick made that mistake with the last Avalo~ Refiner;v proposal and has been subse­ quently sued for some enormous amount of mon_!!y for a breach of confidentiality,and I hesitate to go beyond that without the permission of the trustees or without the permission of the people who are making the proposals.

All I can do is repeat what the Premier has said on previous occassions,that our responsibility is to puotect the best interests of the people of the Province and the people of the Province who have an investment in that particular facility.

That will be our purpose throughout the adventure as it continues down the road.I understand that there will be a delegation from the First Arabian Corporation visiting us here in the Province of Newfoundland on the eleventh of this month who hopefully will clarify and expound and give us further detail on their proposal, and I would hope at that time that they will also give us the authority and permission to reveal that detail to the public~s a matter of fact,I would go so far · ~s to say that I would hope that they themselves would take 112

---~ December 5th., 1978 Tape No. 47 DW - 2 MR. DOODY: that step and elaborate on thd.r proposal. About and ..beyend that at this pollnt I cannot go euept to say that our interests are obviously the interests of the Pro~ vince. The first priority is to get the refinery operational and the second, and pretty close to that is to try to recover some of the ill-advised investment in that by the pnvious administration. MR. W .N. ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: MR. W.N. ROWE: Thank you, Sit. A suppleliEntary, Sir. A supplementary. The prpposals I referred to, Mr.

Speaker, were those which were published in all the daily newspapers and answers to questions, answers given by Mr. Shaheen on one of the open line programmes in whi _ch he went into great detail.

There seems to be an indication by the m:in:ister., and perhaps the minister could give us an answer to this question, from what he says I can only assume that the proposals which he has or the government has marked confidential and secret and so on which have not been published dif-fer in some material way from the proposals of First Arabian and the Shaheen group whi.c:h already have been published in ;_he daily newspapers . 113 -

December 5, 1978 Tape No. 48 :m- 1 l-!3.. '.J. ROHE: ~auld that be correct that they are different, the proposals are different fro~ ~•hat has been actually published by the newspapers to date? ~. SPEAKER: MR. DOODY: The han. ~!inister of Industrial Development. trr. Speaker, I would hesitate :o base the government's position, or the position of the people of the Province as enunciated by the government on what was read or interpreted or published by the daily newspapers. Although I have great respect for their editorial ability and their repetorial ~rl. PECKFORD: Expertise. :1R. DOODY: - expertise. Thank you.

I k.""'low very little about the open line shows. I have not had time really to listen to them. Usually _ from nine o'clock in the morning on I am kind of busy in my office and I do as much work as I can for the people of the Pro·.rince. However, if ay friend opposite wishes to give me the detail of l''hat uas said on the open line shows,I will try to check them out, what the facts are an.!,l perhaps ~..e can come up with some sort of a consensus, somewhere between t~e truth anci. the substance. :~. RIDEOUT: MR. SPEAKER: }!R. NEARY: Some of your colleagues ~rill knoH. The hen. member for LaPoile. Hr.

Speaker, I am not sure if my question, Sir, should be directed to the ~linisc~r of Fisheries or to the !'linister of .rustice,but I have questions for bot!1, and on"' o r tuo supplementaries, Sir. I would like to start off ~dth the ~-!inister of Fisheries, and ask the mi:J.ister if the three mid-~vater trawlers, the Barr~cudina, the Blue Hc-ke and the Sand Launce, have been sold or leased to T.J. Hardy in Port aux Bas~ues? ~.. SPEA..'<ER: The hon. Hinister of ~isheries. 1.14

Decembe~ S, l~78 Tape o. 48 Nl~ - 2 MR. l-1. CARTER.: Hr. Speaker, to my knowledge they were sold. Initially t~ey were leased to the company, and I think s_ubseq':lently sold to the conpany concerned, Hardy's. ':R. NEARY: A supplementary, Sir. The hon. gentl~ then will realize that these · three boats, ! thi~ they were called the sculpin fleet, ~rere built by the Newfoundland Government, built .at Marystown, and now one of t~em has been lost, the Bardcudina, and possibly five Newfo\Ui.dland fam.ilies have been bereaved.

I would like to ask the l·!inister of Justice if the minister thinks that the disappearance of the Barr:!.cudina wan-ants a fomal enquiry- I have already asked for one mysslf of the. Minister of Transport - it the l'rovincial Minister of Justice thinks that there should be a _-_!o.rmai. _E!ItqUiry ~to the disappearan~e of this bo.p.t:: that was b10ilt by the Newfoundland Government and sold to T .J. 1iardy and would the .inini.ster indicate if the government would support such an enquiry? I realize it is the responsibility of the Goveroment of Canada, the M1.nister of Transp?rt.

Would the Hiniste~ of .l:ustice undertake to support such an enquiey? 115

!Jecember 5, 1978 Tape :ro. 49 EC - 1 ~!R. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. RICK~!AN: Mr. Speaker, firstly, wh~t the hon. gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) says is correct: The decision as to whether or not there is an inquiry held into the loss of any ship or loss of life at sea is the sole and exclusive responsibility of the Minister of Transport of Canada. My position has always been that when a ship disappears that the Minister of Transport should hold an inquiry.

The practice has been when they are held that a judge of either the Supreme Court or the district court is appointed to conduct the inquiry. If I may digress for a second, this is one of the thin~s that prior to Confederation was very fully covered under our laws. At that time, whenever there was a loss at sea there was what we used to call a Marine Court of Inquiry consisting of a judge of the Supreme Court and generally two master mariners as appraisers who sat with him. But with Confederation, jurisdiction vested exclusively in ~he Government of Canada.

I have no hesitancy at all in supporting this application or any suggestion that the hon. Otto Lang should hold an inquiry. I believe the practice that the Minister of Transport follows in Ottawa is whenever there is a loss of life at sea that he first directs his officials under the provisions of the Transport Act to conduct their own inquiry and when that is completed and he receives a report from them, he then decides whether or not a public inquiry is necessary. There have been some differences of opinion between this government and the Minister of Transport in that area of endeavour.

And in particular, I remind hon. gentlemen of the loss of the San Juan where we formally - and I believe there was a resolution of this P.ouse,if my memory serves me correctly, ~16 ;.

December 5, 1978 Tape No. 49 EC - 2 l!R. HICKHAN: asking that there be an inquiry into the loss of t~at ship. Mr. Lang felt for reasons known to him that as a result of the investigation conducted by his people that an inquiry was not warranted and he was not prepared to set it up. But in any event. if there is an indication - well, I think the most prudent thing to do would be to avoid prejudging what the decision of the Hin:ister of Transport in Otta~Ta will be. I ~10uld assume that he has not received any reports as yet from his investigative team.

If, following that, he decides that there will not be an inquiry, certainly he knows the position of this government that where there is loss of life at sea then there should be a Marine Court of Inquiry or a judicial inquiry set up under the provisions of the Department of Transport Act and/or the Canada Shipping Act, and I certainly have no hesitancy in such a request. ~tR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MIL SPEAKER : A supplementary. HR. NEARY ; Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman really did not answer my question directly. Perhaps I did not make the question clear to the minister.

What I asked the minister was if the government would support ·in writing or by wire a request for a public inquiry into the disappearance of the Barricudina, not just have it recorded in this House? Mr. Speaker, apart from bringing into focus the procedures of the present search and rescue operations as far as this Province are concerned, there may be other factors involved. For instance,there are still two of these draggers, midwater trawlers afloat, the Sand Launce and the Blue Hake. 117

December 5, 1978 Mr. Neary: the boats may arise~ Tape 50 PK - l And the question of stabilitv of do not know. But I believe, Sir, for the protection, for the safety of the crew of the two remaining ships that this government,who built these boats down at Marystown7 should join with me in asking for a public inquiry, to bring out the facts. I think, Sir, it should go a little further. After all, Mr. Speaker, han. gentlemen will remember that in the case of the Cape Royal, the hon. gentleman. and his colleagues were very vocal, and the member of Parliament for St.

John's West was very vocal about getting an inquiry into the Cape Royal, and the circumstances are about the same as far as the Barracudina is concerned. And I believe this government, Sir, has a very serious obligation, and I would like for the minister to state whether or not they will write the Minister of Transport or wire the Minister of Transport and support a move for a public inquiry into the disappearance of this vessel. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, we were indeed very vocal as a government, not only with the Cape Royal but with the San Juan and other ships that have been lost during the last few years 1 in askin!l for an inquiry. repeat that our demand for an inquiry and our written request for an inquiry is made once the minister of Transport in Ottawa decides on the evidence that is submitted to him whether he is going to hold it. For all we know the hon. Otto Lang may have decided already that he is going to hold an inquiry. He may decide that it is inappropriate today or tomorrow to make that decision, but make no mistake about it, Mr.

Speaker, at the appropriate time,if there is a refusal in Ottawa to set up an inquiry into the loss of that ship,the Government of Newfoundland will once again renew a request for an inquiry. have some success. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: And I would hope that this time we will Mr. Speaker, on a supplementary. A final supplementary. 1.18

December 5, 1978 Tape 50 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: I would assume, Sir, that the minister's answer is no, that this government will not ask for a formal inquiry at this time. The answer is no, I can assume that, and therefore, Mr. Speaker, I am dissatified with the answer and I wish to debate it during the late show on Thursday coming. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: B~t in answer to the question, may I repeat for the record the answer is yes, but if the hon. gentleman wants to debate it, you know, go to it. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River followed by the hon. gentleman for Baie Verte-White Bay. MR. STRACHAN: In the Speech from the Throne yesterday we noted that the government has announced steps to create a year-round deep­ water port in Labrador. Also>when we read the fine print we find out that what they are speaking about is just getting an icebreaker to study ice dredging in Lake Melville this month. A question for the Minister of Transportation.

I wonder if the minister could inform us whether1 since an icebreaker is going to be in Lake Melville this month stud~ing ice dredging,whether there was any request from his department or the government for icebreaker service two weeks ago on the Labrador Coast to assist the Sarah and the Marine Voyager at Davis Inlet, the Bonavista at Nain and the Glenco into Lake Melville-Goose Bay to get the much needed supplies to the Labrador Coast1 Whether this government had requested Ottawa to provide this icebreaker service? MR. SPEAKER: MR. J. DINN: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications.

Yes, I can check the detail of that, Mr. Speaker. I understand we made a request for the Lake Melville part of it, but as to whether we did on the Coast I am not too sure. But I will check it and get the answers for you. MR. STRACHAN: MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. 1.1.9

December 5, 1978 Tape 50 PK - 3 MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, I realize we are far from St. John's and that the minister does not realize what I am talking of:·: Mr. Speaker, we have the greatest coastline in the world and one of the worst ice conditions in the world, Labrador shares in that.

Could the minister tell us whether there will be a formal request or demand to Ottawa to see that there is an icebreaker service provided for the whole Labrador Coast, a suitable icebreaker service, not piddling little boats, an icebreaker service for the whole Labrador Coast during the manti'! of November, duririo the late shipping season into December every year regardless of whether it is required or not? 120

necember 5,1978 HR . SPEAKER: l'l!. DINN: Tape No. 51 AH-1 The hon. minister. Mr. Speaker, there has not been a formal request for all year-round icebreaking facilities but it is 7 I would remind the hon. member7 a federal responsibility and maybe he should get in touch with his member of parliament. MR. STRACH.!'.N: 1-'R. SPEAKER: A supplementary Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. ~.

STRACHAN: I have,over the last few weeks,been discussing this intensely- last year as well and the year before­ but you are the government- I am an Opposition member here-and it is therefore your duty,as I see it,and your responsibility to realize that this Province also consists of more than St. John's.

A question for the minister, could he tell us whether he would request Ottawa and together with the Government of Canada-. undertake a of air-sea rescue, marine air-radio and icebreaker service on the whole Labrador Coast, to undertake a study on these conditions because it is only through excellent seamanship that there has been no tragedy occur so far. And furthermore would he ask Ottawa for -explanations as to why,in the month of November,the Sir Humphrey Gilbert was placed on dry dock in Halifax, the only vessel which is suitable for icebreaker service on the Labrador Coast? Mr.

Speaker, far be it from me to answer a question like that from the hon. member. If he is trying to tell me what my responsibilities are may I remind him what his responsibilities are to his constituents and possibly get to them so they will not be petitioning again for his removal. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must point out to hen. members that the Question Period is not a period of debate and questions should not be agrumentative or of a debating type nor should answers. MR. STRACHAN: lffi. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. 121

December 5,19 78 Tape No. 51 AH-2 MR. ST'P.ACRAN: Mr. Speaker, for the past two ~eeks I have been working on ice trying to help and assist in trying to get foodstuffs into Davis Inlet so the minister need not lecture me about workin on ice. I wonder if the minister would answer the question whether he is prepared to undertake,this governmant, t~is administration is prepared to undertake or ask assistance from Ottawa and the various departments, to undertake a full-scale study of icebreaker service, marine radio service and air-sea rescue in Labrador as it applies to Labrador?

We have a ll,.P,.I: <i<>;o_l_ ('!-: --:ceds :!.n Newfoundland,and I agree absolutely that the Island of Newfoundland needs an upgraded service, but I am wondering if they are prepared to a!so request this as far as Labrador is concerned since the services provided are totally inadequate? AN HON.MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. DINN: Mr.

Speaker, I agree that the services provided by the federal ~overnment with respect to air-sea search and rescue, with respect to icebreaking facilities, with respect to the Newfoundland rail~ay, ~ith respect to many things are totally inadequate. .i·1e : have, through the previous several ministers, requested many things from the federal government and among them are things like trying to provide services to the people in Newfoundland which they obviously are not.

I again say to the bon. member that he should contact his federal counterparts and .:olleagues in Ottawa,which is a government of the same stripe as the hon. member,and remind them of their responsibility and not try to remind us. We are trying to look after ours. MF. STP.ACHAN: ~'r. Speaker. }'F.. SPEAKER: A finnl supplementary. }'R. STRACHA,.'<: Would the minister be prepared to table the pertinent documents he says they have requ,steu Ottawa-with reference 1 in particular~to Labrador icebreaker service, marine radio ~•d air-sea rescue servic<> in 1.22

December 5,1978 Tape No. 51 AH-3 'IR. SPEAKER: The han. minister. lAR.. Dim!: Mr. Speaker, no. ~iF.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Baie Verte-White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the }linister of Industrial Development. In the announcement : 123

.;, December 5th., 1978 Tape No. 52 DW - 1 MR. T. RIDEOUT: a week or so ago that the Labrador linerboard mill had been sold to Abitibi-price, I believe the Premier made some reference to the fact that the mill would utilize on - Island wood; I would like to ask. the minister whether or not there has been any detailed discussions between the government and Abitibi­ Price with regard to utilizing wood resources that were utilized by linerboard mill,for example, in the Roddickton area,m1ich is of particular concern to me at this moment~ MR. SPEAKER: Ron. minister. MR.

DOODY: The wood supply question for the reactivation of the Stephenville plant was discussed in great detail with the company and we have satisfied them that there are adequate l~ood supplies available to provide the company with an adequate supply for the single-machine plant which they envisage.As to the detail of the wood stock or the cordage that is now lined up in Roddickton is it1 MR. RIDEOUT: It is not up there now. MR. DOODY: Oh, I see. I am sorry.

The wood which is yet to be cut,the wood area in Roddickton,I cannot actually say at this point, Sir, whether that was one of the woods areas which .had been allocated to the new company area,- ·although I rather suspect that it is not. It is somewhat distant from the mill and it would appear,from this distancepto be somewhat uneconomica~ in terms of the reactivation of the single machine.

When we get into the second machine installatian,of course,which is further down the road,I would think that then things would change dramaticallY-But off the top of my head I feel that that Roddickton wood area is not involved in the original agreement 1 although I stand to be corrected, and I ~~ill look into the matter for the han. member and see exactly what the lvood detail is on that agreement. MR. T . RIDEOUT: MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, Ur. Speaker. A supplementary. 1.24 ;.

December 5th., 1978 Tape 52 ow - 2 ~. T. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for his undertaking to look into the matter. In the Throne Speech yesterday there was some reference made to small contained pulp units that would be used to break wood down into pulp and thereby ship it at a more economical rate to mills like Corner Brook and, hopefully,Stephenville and maybe other areas.

Could the minister tell the House,in view of the fact that the whole economy of the Roddickton area and I could add Main Brook-and my colleagues district depends largely on a thriving forest operatio~whether or not that particular area would be investigated for the possibility of including one of those chip mills 1 or whatever the technical name is,within the area so that the pulp could be broken down and thereby transported at a more economical rate to where it can be utilized by the mills? ~~. SPEAKER: Bon. minister. NR.

DOODY: Yes, that is one of the areas that this thermo-mechanical process, these small pulping operations are directly aimed at,the Burlington Penninsula area, the Main Brook - Roddickton area and other areas which have proven to be uneconomical in terms of shipping the pultngood as such in their totality to the two mills, and now the third mill which will be operational in the Province. I can assure the member that that is one of the areas that is under active investigation­ Hopefully. it will result in utilizing that forest resource, It is one of the better, as the member knows, forest resources in the Province.

So far it has not been economical to use it for the mills that we have now under the conditions that we have now.I think that with this process there is some hope that that may be be accomplished.! sincerely hope that it will happen. It is under investigation,it is one of the areas that we have identified. MR. W.~. ROWE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 1.25

Decedle~ 5th. • 1978, Tape No. St DW- 3 ~1R. SPEAKER: A s~ppl~ntaxy, the hon. Leader of the Oppasttion. MR. W. N. RoWE: To the hou. lllinistei' who just answered a. quest ,ion did I understand from his answer, or has be been :!.nformed by Abitibi whether they will or •Nill not be cutting wood on the Labrador for use in the converted or ;. -- 126

December 5, 1978 Tape ~To. 53 EC - 1 ~JR • TJ . N • ROTvE : or reconverted Linerboard mill? :u. DOODY: The answer is, unfortunately, no. The plan for the activation of the Bay St. George mill does not include the useage of the wood resource in Labrador . It is not part of the plan , unfortunately. ~~- · SPEAKER : The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans, followed by the hon. gentleman from St. John's T.Yest. ~fR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. the ~!inister of Transportation and Communications.

I have not studied the Throne Speech yet but I do not recall havin~ heard any mention of the Province's programme for new highroad construction this coming year, and I would ask the minister if it is the ~overnment's intention to build the road between Rishop's Falls and Grand Falls in the 1979 construction season? NowJwhen the road was first announced it was indicated it would be in the first phase of the new agreement with Ottawa. Is it the Province's intention to have that strip of road, the twinnin~ of the Trans-Canada between Bishop's Falls and Grand Falls , included in the 1979 construction ~rogramme?

The hen. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. DINN: ---- -- Mr. Speaker, that will depend on whether the money stretches. All of the Trans-Canada , you mean, between Bishop's and Grand Falls? Is that the question? MR. FLIGHT: And the twinning. jc t1R. DDHl: And the twinning? •n. FLIGITT : Yes. :·!R. D I!Hl: We do not know if the mone y Hill stretch for all of that

section of hi g hway, but we will know in very short order. 1.27

December 5, 1978 :·!R. FLIGHT : :IR. SPEAKER: :1R. FLIGHT: Tape :·lo. 53 EC - 2 Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary. ~r. Speaker, I would remind the minister that work has already gone on, the 7idening of the right of way Rnd that kind of thing. And in view of the minister's answer, I have to ask, Has not the government left the impression in the Province, or at least with the general public, that the work to be done, the various projects, twinning here and widening there, was designated and that the monies over the four years would do the necessary work and that you have a programme?

Now do you have a programme or do you not? Are you aware of what projects you are going to take on in 1979 or is it depending on the money running out at the end of the four years? And, l:Ir.

Speaker, I would like to hear the minister indicate whether or not he is satisfied that the agreement that the previous Minister of Transportation negotiated with Ottawa, is he satisfied that the financial end of that agreement will cover all the reconstruction we need in this Province1 And is it true the indications that he gave as minister, that the areas to be reconstructed were set in a rigid plan and that he knew what areas he would be rebuilding or widening or reconstructing? :!R. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. Xr. Speaker, we have a definite plan.

We had some pre-engineering done when the plan was first started and we have since got some final design on a lot of the highways that were supposed to be done under the present agreement. Unfortunately, the money will not cover all of the roads that were in the preliminary design, and therefore, we do not know at this point in tioe exactly what will be covered over t~e three year period with 1.28

Dececber 5, 1978 Ta pe !lo . 53 EC - 3 M!. D I ~N: respect to t he dol lar s chat are in pl ace right now. So we will ~now soon and when we do find out we will certainly inform the Hous e an d the hon . meaber. ~R. HR. St. ~R. MR. FLIGHT: SPEAFC"ER: John's West. FLIGET: SPEAKER : A final supplementary, ~r. Soeake r. The hon. the ~embe r for A final suprlementary. ~r. Speaker. The hon. gen tleman is aware of what i s in the Standing Orders with respect to supple~aentaries. The bon. meaber. JR. UTCHE~~: Mr. Speaker, my ques tion is d irected towards the Minister of Hous ing, the Chairman of t~e St .

John's Rousing Corporation and Chair man of the Newfoundland and Labrador Ho usin g Corpo rati on. The Daily News of last week carried a rather shocki ng report that $900,000 in RRAP 129

December 5, 1978 Tape :~o. 54 ~1·!- 1 DR. KITCHEN: hundred thousand dollars in RRAP funds to the city would remain unspent," and quoted the Central :.:ortgage and Housing chief here in St. John's as the source of that report. But I 1o1ould like to kno\-7 -.. :1at is the truth of this report because it would be very serious if almost $1 million were to be returned to Otta1o1a when so many people in my own district,for example, are in very great need of RRAP money. To see the money returned to Ottat-Ta at the end of the year, it would be very serious.

I am wondering if the minister could tell us 'lolhether or not this is true, that money will be returned to Ottawa that is not spent and if it is true where t~ fault lies. HP.. SPEAKER: The hon. :-linister of Housing. HR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, the only thing I can tell my hon. friend is that in discUssion •dth the Vice-Chairman of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, he infor:::s = that up to the present time something close to $800,000 is remaining in terms of monies available and I = advisee! that efforts are unden1ay, in fact tenders have been called for proposals to take up that money.

I am unaware of any surplus funds which will be returned to Ottawa. Indeed,it \Vould be very unusual if the blace would lie with us. Because - • '.N RO:f. :f.E}~SR: ~. HICKEY: You have nothing to do with it • - the best I can gather from my discussions with the people in Housing, at this particular ?Oi~t in tine,is that the federal government are taking initiatives to cut the cost themselves. So I am certainly not aware. But I will get the details over and above wl~t I have said and confirm or othendse. 130

D~cember 5, 1978 Tape No. 54 ~m- 2 ORDERS OF THE DAY : :'!R. SPEAKER: Order one, debate on the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne. The hon. member fo~ Baie Verte - mtite Bay. SOHE RON. ME:.-:BERS: Hear, hear! NR. RIDEOUT: Hr. Speaker, first of all before I begin ny fe~f remarks let me say hmf pleasant it is to see my former Padre in the galleries, Reverend Hatthew Kean from Con~1.e and his delegation, uitc spent so many years with us in Baie Verte. It is indeed a pleasure to run into him again.

Let me begin, Sir, by complimenting the mover and seconder of the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne, the hon. member for Kilbride 01r. Wells) and the hen, member for Grand Falls (Hr. Lundrigan) • I = sure that each of them spoke sincerely. They did speak eloquently in their moving and seconding the Speech from the Throne, Sir, it has been said that politics make queer bed fellows and indeed it is true. SOME HON. l-'mffiERS: llR. RIDEOUT: Strange. Strange. Queer. I deliberately used the word queer, ~r. Speaker_ Deliberately. And indeed it is :rue. Because when you see t~.ro former ministers, Mr.

Speaker, two former ministers of the Crown, ~-Tell respected ministers, highly placed ministers at one time, relegated to the backbench notoriety of moving and secondin~ the Speech from the Throne, then it is true. l~<en those people hop in ~ed together then it is true, There is something queer going on, Sir, 'vhen those people move and second the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne. So I deliberately used the ~Jord that I used. f..N nON. :-1El·!BER: ,\1! RON. ~!E'·'EER: 'IR. RIDEOUT: ln1at does it "'e:'ln? ~lrong part of the - It means, ~fr.

Speaker, !t means I suppose that none of t~1.e pemanent backbeu.clters, and there are only a few of tl1~m over there now, Sir, it: ~eans t:hat none of the per::tau.ent l>ackbenchers 1.31

Decec4er 5, 197S Tape ~o. 54 ~!!L r.!CEOtrr : ilad the gall or the gumptioc to agai!: rue i .n praise of thl.s administration. It could mean t~t . :::o the un1~an ced task , Sir, tile unvanted task , the unvholly task fell to t;IO former ~!inisters of the Cro ... 'll, ttro forcer Cabinet ~!inisters . It fell to those peo ple, Sir, to defend the indefensible, ::o sort of psyc!le U? tr.e troops, I suppose. Tt.at w~s their job yesterday, to be tr~ L~rale boos ters, to put on a ~nd of a sho'W for the viewing audience.

That job yesterday, which ordinarily t~ould fall to a couple of ordinary backbenchers, this time around for circumstances that are plain for all to see, uad to fall in t~e lap of t~IO former Xinis ters of tue Crown. '!R. SJ:-n·!ONS: )!:t. RIDEOUT: Tva queer fellows. Two queer fellows, Sir . Sut, Sir, they nor those 1 indeed, <tho go to their political 132

!lecember 5, 1978 Tape ~lo. 55 EC - 1 H"R. RIDEOUT: graves relieve that the indefensible can be dafended by backbench hangers-on, by friends in disguise who criticize the administration as if they were in Opposition - that certainly can be said of at least, I think, both of those gentlemen- MR. ~EARY: That is right. MR. RIDEOUT: - by disgruntled former ministers who left the administration and have p~blicly quarrelled with it. Vain are those indeed who think that the administration can be defended by those types of people.

The strategy, Sir, of having two former ministers move and second the Address in Reply, coupled with the strategy of moving the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) from the very extremities of the House up behind the Government House Leader will do nothing, Sir, to enhance the image of a tired, worn out, run-down administration. HR. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: Try as they will, Sir, that will do nothing to improve their image. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ~lR. FLIGHT: Well said! t1R. RIDEOUT: !lr. Speaker, there are too many scores that must be settled.

There are too many disappointments of the people of this Province that cannot be healed. There are too many blunders that cannot be borne any longer. There are too many expectations, Sir, by too many people who have been inflated too often and then callously ripped apart. ~!R. F. WHITE: Rear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: There have been too many wrongs perpetrated on our people by this administration. There :. have been too many scandals, too much skulduggery. Too much deceit has been allowed to go on. Yes, Sir, -- there is no doubt about it, Mr. Speaker, that the ti~e 133

December 5, 1978 Tape e<o. 55 r:c - 2 ~R. RIDEOUT: has arrived. for atoning for one's sins The day of reckoning has caught up with this administration. UR. NEARY: Caught up with the (inaudible). MR. RIDEOUT: member also. Yes, it has caught up with the And the people are waiting for their chance, Sir. The people of this Province are waiting for their chance to go to the polling booths and say in their numbers, 'Depart from me, ye cursed, for ye have not been good stewards:• SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: HR.

RIDEOUT: They will say, Sir, 'Ye have been deceitful, ye have been dishonest and lazy and ye have been believers in the divine right to govern.' So they ~dll say that you must go, that this land must be rid of the cancer with which it has been infested for the last six years. SOME HON. MEMBERS: :1R. RIDEOUT: Hear, hear! That is what the people are waiting for a chance to say, Sir. ~nd no amount of blustery cover-up by two former ministers and moving a former minister up to prop up the Government Rouse Leader is going to change that attitude, Sir, on the part of our people. Mr.

Speaker, how can one help but be negative, in the main? There are some good things such as I will get to later, but how can one help, Sir, but be negative, in the main, about the Speech from the Throne? HR. 1-T. :<. ROWE: ~!R. RIDEOUT: The facts are negative. The facts are negative, and I will get into them in a few minutes. The first Throne Speech, Sir, ever brought before this House by this administration in 1972 - February or March, I am not sure of the month, but in 1972 - the first Throne Speech ever 1.34

December 5, 1978 Tape No. 55 EC - 3 by a brand new government, Sir, brought before this House by this administration, did not even wait to get off the first page - on page one it said, Mr. Speaker, 'Newfoundland need not have the highest unemployment record and the lowest per capita income of this great nation. My ~overnment is planning to introduce new social and economic policies to guide effective development within the Province. My Government pledges itself to the philosophy of inter-regional equity, government inter-departmental coordination and inter- governmental partnership.' They did not wait, Mr.

Speaker, to get off the first page in their first Throne Speech to enunciate the fantastic goal of providing employment for our people. But, Sir, in the Speech that we saw yesterday the word 'unemployment' is not even mentioned. There is not even a mention of the word 'unemployment', that great cancer that is scouring this Province of ours today. There was not a word mentioned about unemployment in that Speech yesterday. Eight Throne Speeches later. Mr.

Sneaker, eight Throne Speeches and six wasted years later down the road, the great platitude that this government started off with six years ago and could not wait to get off the first page because unemployment was so rampant in Newfoundland in 1971 and 1972, that was their great platform. Six years down the road when unemployment has more than doubled , when this Province is worse off unemployment-wise than it has ever been even during the Great Depression in numbers, there is not a word , Sir, in the Throne Speech 1.35

December 5, 1978 Tape 56 PK - 1 MR. RIDEOUT: about unemployment. And they say you are negative. What an attitude, Mr. Speaker. \~hat a callous defense for the indefensible. MR. MCNEIL: Trying to say that it does not exist. MR. RIDEOUT: Now why is there not some word in the Throne Speech, Sir, about the greatest single problem facing this Province today? Why is there not some word ~bout it in the Throne Speech? Because, Sir, the ·record of this government in job creation has been a dismal failure. That is why there is no word, that is why there is no mention of the word'unemployment'in the Throne Speech.

You can take the whole nine Throne Speeches, Mr. Speaker, from 1972 up to now and in the first three or four you will see some whimpering about unemployment. Sut then the bottom began to fall out of the barrel. They could not cope with the situation, they gave up in despair ,. and nine Throne Speeches later,down the road,you do not even see the word in print. What a shocking admission, Mr. Speaker, for a bunch of people who want to govern this Province to have to make, and to have to make it in writing and to have to have it read before this hon. House by the Lieutenant-Governor of this Province.

It is sad that the document that was read to us yesterday, Sir, had to bear the name Throne Speech let alone anything else. Six years, Sir, after taking office, six years under this administration our unemployment rate is still the highest in the country. Six years ago in their first Throne Speech they said, that need not be the case. And so I say, Sir, what have they done about it? The facts speak for themselves. They have obviously done nothing about it. They have not been able to cope with the situation. And, Mr.

Speaker, were it not for Federal Canada Works grants,unemployment insurance payments and other federal monies coming into this Province I would suggest to you, Sir, that there would be riots in the streets of this Province today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: We ~tould be a disaster area. There would be no hope, Sir. The federal government that is so often taken to task 1.36

December 5, 1978 Tape 56 PK - 2 Mr. Rideout: in this House by politicians on the other side, so often, Sir, is the only thing, Mr. Speaker, that is keeping this government going. Sixty per cent, I believe, of our revenue that we spend comes from Ottawa. And were it not for Canada Works and UIC the people of this Province would be going in the thousands, Sir, to the welfare offices attempting to scrape a bite to eat. MR. NEARY: Fifty per cent of the welfare comes from Ottawa. MR. RIDEOUT: And fifty per cent of that comes from Ottawa, that is right. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the question is-having read the Throne Speech yesterday, where is the government's programme to create new jobs? Where is the government's programme to get our people back to work? That is the single most important issue facing our people today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: And it was not addressed in one single phrase or one single word in the Speech from the Throne. It is unbelievable, Sir, that the government does not even know it exists. They do not even know it is the number one problem that is facing this Province today. What have they done about it?

We saw-what?-a year and a half or two years ago we saw a $2 million Bandaid approach. Remember the great job creation programme that this administration embarked on a couple of years ago, the $2 million Bandaid approach? We have seen that. We have seen the $2 million telephone line, the Action.Group. What has that produced in terms of jobs for this Province? People who already had a good job and making a fairly good salary have a better job and making a better salary- MR. NEARY: Part-time job. MR. RIDEOUT: - we know that has happened. Part-time job. We kno~1 that has happened. But, Mr.

Speaker, we have not seen the jobs. It is as simple as that,we have not seen the jobs, we have not seen the programmes or the policies; we have not seen the 1.3? :. --

December 5, 1978 Tape 56 PK - 3 Mr. Rideout: bold new initiatives that this Province needs, Sir, in order to get the people back to work and to get the Province back on a sound economic footing. We just have not seen it. ~le have not seen the progra!T111es or the policies to create jobs for our people. I realize, Sir, I am not naive enough, Sir, to suggest- I realize that unemployment is a national problem, there is no doubt about that, but, Sir, in Newfoundland it is more than a problem it is a disaster, it is a disgrace. And this Provincial Government has a role to play, it has a responsibility, but, Mr.

Speaker, judging from the Speech fr~ the Throne yesterday you would not know that the problem exists. l-Ie have not even kept up, Sir, since this government took office six years ago. I know there have been more people join the labour force and so on, but we have not even kept up with where we were then.

We are worse off now~ we are falling behind, and this administration has the gall to bring a Speech from the Throne into the House and does not even mention the number one problem facing the people of this Province today. say, Sir, it is unbelievable, it is something that this han. crowd will take to their political graves and deserve ' to be buried with it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: Another Throne Speech 9one by , Mr.

Speaker, and we still have to ask ourselves, we still have to ask our­ selves after six years and nine Speeches from the Throne, we still have to ask ourselves, What is the government's plan for the development of this Province? It has not been spelled out yet.only in political pious platitudes. It was not outlined in the Speech from the Throne yesterday, Sir. There was a lot of talk about the development of the fishery, 1.38

December 5,1978 Tape No. 57 All-1 !-IR. RIDEOUT: there were a lot of words about fishing and I would say that is good 7 but, Sir, we need more than talk, we need some action because the fishery is the backbone of this Province and will continue to ·be the backbone of this Province. There are times, Mr. Speaker, when I can be complimentary to the Minister of Fisheries, there are also some areas where I can be critical and I do not mind doing both.

I will say though, Sir, about the Minister of Fisheries that this minister in most instances has bent his shoulder to the task, he has not been afraid to work and he is one of the fe~v ministers on that side of the House, Sir, in that administration that I can say that about. !he ~inister of Fisr.eries has at least given the appearance that he is working for and on behalf of the fishermen of this ~rovince and I compliment him for it. But, Sir, having said that I will have to say that a man would have to be a dunce, a man would have to be a stunned mope, Mr.

Speaker, not to look good as 'Unis ter of Fisheries in Newfoundland today. That is right. MP.. I'.IDEOUT: You would have to be as stunned as they come not to look good as Minister of Fislleries in this Province }~L ~Ii1~o:.rs: Thanks to Rol!"~o. The fishery, Mr. Speaker, is taking on a great upward swing due to the 2CO mile limit. There is no doubt about that. l-iP.. SIHIONS: Thank you 6ttawa. ~-· RIDEOUT: So Newfoundland, Sir, is reaping the benefits of that upward swing and so we ought to.

So there is every reason, Sir, for the stundest mope in the administration to look half decent in the fisheries portfolio today. But, Sir, having said that I also must say that there is a great deal that needs and remains to be done in the fishery. Some of the concepts,for example,outlined in the Speech from the Throne and the minister's recent conference on the fisheries are laudable. There is no doubt about that. I will not be small eDough to say that they were not. Fish Our Future has a beautiful coloured picture of the minister in there. Some of the :139 '·

December 5,1978 Tape No. 57 AR-2 }IR. RIDEOUT: concepts are laudable, some of them are worthwhile and will not doubt help fisheries development in this Province. A man would be small, Sir, not to say that and not to admit it and I h~ve no hesitation in saying it and doing that. But I will say, Sir, that I am very IJary, I am very cautious about the super?ort concept that the minister has hung his star to. I am very 1·1ary about that concept as explained to the fisheries conference a week or so ago and mentioned again in this House yesterday in the Throne Speech address.

I have been told, Sir, that the superport concepts have not really worked all that well in other parts of the world. In Scotland,for example,there are some dicey questions about the superport concept. MR. NEARY: That is the one Mr. Davidson 1-1ent over to study. ~.RIDEOUT: That is right. the one that he did not get paid for and therefore began to let all the political goings on hit the fan. }IR. NEARY: That is righ_!=. MF • RIDEOUT : They should have paid him, Mr. Speaker, because it might never have come out. MR. NEARY: ':Chat is the one .•.ncly !i::.vidson went over to stucy. ~m.

RIDEOUT: The Grimsby report,was it? }\R. NEARY: The Grimsby, that is right. lie only got -paid ~lalr t !i..e axu.oun t . '!o'll. RI:nEOUT: Because he never got paid he is after springing a lot of things loose since that. The government should have paid him, Mr. Speaker. :T... Sll1· ~~iS; They do not even know how to buy people off, ever ti;ere. }! F. RIDEOUT: They do not even know how to pay their bills properly. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, as I was saying, Sir, the Silperport concept is one that I would like to give a lot more thought and study to 1.40

Dece~ber 5, 1973 Tape No. 58 N}! - 1 'lR. RIDEOUT: because I have been told, and I have saen instances where the superport concept has not been ~Tor king in oth::r parts of the I·Torld and I have mentioned the situation in Scotland as an example. In fact, Sir, I have been told that the superport really established an industrial ~hetto, t~ose are the words that were used, an industrial ghetto causing major social and econ~c upheaval. Now I would suggest, Sir, t:1at that :7LCI.Y not be the route that ~'e want to go in this Province. I am not turning thumbs dcwn or, the idea, Sir. I am open to it.

I 1roulci lL~e to see full details and information brought before this House so that we can share it and debate it and discuss it and ~ybe come to some sort of consensus. But all I am saying is go cautiously. Do not go into this thing overnight. It has been tried elsewhere, :1r. Speaker, and they ended up with problems. TI1ey have ended up with major social and economic problems as a result of it. So tread carefully, Sir, where you are going.

And I would suggest that having looked at it we may come to the conclusion in Newfoundland that it is not the route that we want to go in the development of the fisheries in our Province. L1.st:ead, !1r. Speaker, of loor..ing at one superport, one major industrial fish oriented port, instead of doing that we may - maybe we ought to be looking at a half dozen major strategically located ports arcund this Province. Maybe that is ~That we should be looking at, I am not sure. I would, from the information I have nm~, I ,,muld be inclined to think that vay but I vrot:ld like to have more information on lt, Mr.

Speaker • And I think the minister, before he goes off, you know,making pronouncements ttat the~e is going to be no changeover, has an obligation to come before this House so thllt l·ie can get into the meat of the situation. It may be that we ou~ht to be developing a half dozen strategically located fi~h landinz centres around this Province. It i~ an area that '~e certainly should be looking at. :fi' .. J. WINSOR: Argentia. 1.41. --

Decewber 5, 1978 Tape No. 58 Nl'~ - 2 !·:R. RIDEOUT: Argentia is one possible example. Harbour Grace coulc be another one. I do not kno~,r, Twillingate may be another one. There could be a half dozen strategically located areas ar.ound this Province ~•here ~1e should be concentrating our efforts into a major fish handling centre rather than putting all our eggs into the one basket and into the Harbour Grace area. HR. SIMMONS: I do not think you are going to help the Burir: Peninsula for example. ~!R. RIDEOUT: ~. SNIDNS: :m.. RIDEOUT : That is right. Or help the West Coast. So, ~fr.

Speaker, I a.ITI sug::esting thc.t it is something that we should take a very hard look at. Now, Mr. Speaker, while some progress has been made in the development of the fishery in this P~c~~nce, vlhile I have very quick.lv "'dmitted that, I i1asten to add tl1at there is much more that needs to be done in the development of ou::: fishery. :!any communities, for exa:nple, around our coast are still sadly lacking in fish handling facilities. I am sure the problems exist in every district. ~1any viable fishing communities h=e no facilities at all. It is almost impossible to believe, ~lr.

Speaker, that viable fishing communities have no fish handli~g facilities at all in 1S78. I can name tv'o in my own district. Smith's Harbour; I suppose there is more fish landed in Smith's Harbour than any other community in the district with the exception of LaScie, and there is uo fish handling facility ~Jhatsoever in that community, There is an old shed on the wharf operated by National Seal Products from LaScie, a...-,d they talk about quality control. Uoodstock is another cor.Jmunity, :cr. Speaker, in my district where there is absolutely no fish handling facility a,nc;.

I •10uld have been able to name another l1alf dozen had it not been for the generosity of Canada Works. Sm!E HON. ME1-IJ3ERS : I:iear, hear! 1.42 -.

~ c cenb er 5, 19 73 T ap ~ .'o. 58 .<.! - 3 YR. !UDEOU'I : There is no doubt about that. There have been a few fis~ handling facilities birllt over the last tnree or four years utilizing CIIIIB.da Works grants in order to get them · done. So fish halldli.ug fl!<cilities is of major importance and I suggest, ~- Speake. .r, that ~~e still have a long ~~ay to go before we !i:obre that problem adequately. tfany colllllllliLities need expanded and upgraded facilities. The original facilities put in under CIIIIB.da Works , for e=.le, three or four years ago are no longer adequate.

Two years ago we built a fish handling shed in Breht's Cove for twenty-seven fishermen. I ~Tas there a cou!'le of weeks ago and there are fifty-two who used it 1-lSt year. Sc that shed is no longer adequate. So we need upgraded and expanded facilities <tnd that is another area that we have to get into. And, }~. Speaker, that should be our task and ~-re ought to dedica .te ourselves to it, not to get caught up totally in the one major development concept that has been presented to us so far. At the same time, Sir, that we are conce n trating on this 've lllUSt concentrate on marketing.

The-re is no doubt about that. We mu.st ~oncentra:te on quality control. There has to be more ~reezing 143 •

u ececber 5. 1978 Tape ~o. 59 tc - 1 ~!R. RIDEOUT: capacity. Some moves have been made in that direction, but other more giant moves are still needed. There has to be an expansion of freezing capacity; there has to be some move made to solve the perennial glut problem that we have in the fishery along our Northeast Coast every year. So, you know, Mr.

Speaker, there are all kinds of problems in the fishery development, and while the government and the minister have addressed themselves to some, it appears to me as if he has become more or less caught up in the great industrial super- port concept surrounding Harbour Grace, and that , Mr. Speaker, could very well be to the disadvantage of fishermen along the Northeast Coast of this Province. SOME RON. MEMBERS: l1R. NEARY: Hear, hear! I hope nobody is over buying land in Harbour Grace either. HR. RIDEOUT: It would be interesting to know who is buying land in Harbour Grace, ~r. Speaker. HR.

NEARY: They have the land for (inaudible ) . MR. SIMMONS: They cannot buy it, 'Frank 1 has it all. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. RIDEOUT: Well, Mr. Speaker, we have not reached the stage yet where we ought to make ourselves champions of the multi-national companies. The inshore fishermen and the midshore fishermen should be our prime concern as a provincial Legislatur~, and we ought to be directing our energies into that area. :fr. Speaker, there was nothing in the Speech from the Throne to cause one to be over- enthusiastic about developn~nt of Labrador power , to branch off in another direction.

The Lower Churchill Development Corporation , Sir , in the exact v ords of the Speech from the Throne. 1 seeks to remove all obstacles 144 .··

December 5, 1978 Tape No. 59 EC - 2 HR. RIDEOUT : to the recommencement of construction work in the Lower Churchill basin.' That is word for word from the Speech from the Throne, and apparently, that is what the Labrador Development Corporation is all about. Mr. Speaker, after the firecracker plot of 1975 that pulled the greatest deceit that was ever perpetuated on our people, after that, three years later, you have the government saying, the Lower Churchill Development Corporation has been established to seek to remove all obstacles to development of power in the Lower Churchill basin. '·!R.

Siml:ONS: Obstacle number one is 'Frank Moores 1 • MR. RIDEOUT: Obstacle number one is the government of this Province. !1R. SIMMON~: That is right. MR. RIDEOUT: The firecracker plot that they bounced off in the Fall of 1975, after all that, then, Mr. Speaker, you have a line like that in the Speech from the Throne. Mr. Speaker, the deceit that was pulled on both sides of the Straits of Belle Isle in 1975, in Anchor Point on one side - What is the place on the other side? MR. lo!HITE: Savage Cove. ~R.

RIDEOUT: - Savage Cove on the other side, the deceit that was pulled on the people of this Province in 1975 cost this Province, the people of this Province , the taxpayers of this Province, te~s of millions of dollars, there is no doubt about that. ~ !R. S IHHONS: One hundred and ten million dollars. !!!t. RIDEOUT : One hundred and t e n million dollars , Sir , that deceit, that firecracker plot cost the 1.45 .· ;. -.

December 5, 1978 Tape !lo. 59 EC - 3 MR. ll.!DEOUT: --~ · - · --- people of this Province. And then they have the gumption to come in in the Speech from the Throne in 1978, three years later, and say. 'qe are hoping to remove the obstacles to the development of -·· power in the Lower Churchill basin.' : All that has happened, Mr.Speaker, is that a federal/provincial corporation has been formed to remove obstacles that is all. There is no commitment, there is no more of a ray of hope now, Sir, than there was three years ago.

They just have a federal/~rovincial Crown corporation to look at the obstacles, I suppose to look at the Quebec question, to look at the Anglo-Saxon Route, to look at the possibility of raising financing. There is nothing there about markets. There is nothing nailed down yet, Sir. One hundred and ten million dollars and three years later down the road, we are no closer, Sir, to the development of power on the Lower Churchill River than we were in 1975 when we had the gunpowder plot. SOHE RON. UEMBERS: Hear, hear! UR. RIDEOUT: That is all you can call it : MR . HRIT E: The new Guy Faulkes. AN RON.

ME'!-IBER: Guy Faulkes the Second. ~1R. RIDEOUT: Guy Faulkes the Second, happens to be Premier of the Province. Mr. Speaker, I have heard pious platitudes from this government about power development in Labrador , but I have seen no evidence that Labrador power is to be developed primarily for use in Newfoundland and Labrador. That has been our position. The government say it is their position, but we do not see any evidence, Hr.

Speaker , that it is their position, that the power that will be developed in Labrador will be developed for the benefit of the Labrador portion of the Province and t he Island part of the Province. We are 1.46

December 5th., 1978 Tape No. 60 m; - 1 HR. T. RIDEOUT: still operating, Sir, in the dark, we do not know what is happening and the government has no tDDre idea now of what it wants to do in Labrador then when it was afflicted,or infected would probably be the better word,with election fever in 1975. They have no more notion, Sir, three years later they have no more notion about what they want to do with Labrador power than they did in 1975. None whatsoever. Mr.

Speaker, the same is true, Sir, for other aspects of development in Lalrador,not only the development of the hydro potential, but the same is true for other aspects of development in Labrador. I noticed in one of the previous Throne Speeches, Sir, that I was looking at last night there was some lofty reference to a Trans- Labrador Highway.I scoured the speech that was presented yesterday, Sir, I went through it word for word even counted the 'a's' and the 'ands' looking for another lofty reference ) to the Trans-Labrador Highway and what did I find: Only the wishy washy words 'an ultimate 1~ An ultimate link. HR.

S. NEARY: A needled- (inaudible). MR. T. RIDEOUT: There is no doubt, Mr. Speaker the Minister of Justice must have written the Speech from the Throne. An ultimate link! The lofty words of four or five years ago with the Trans-Labrador Highway gets now, in this Speech from the Throne,the wishy-washy, really weasle words,of'an ultimate link; An ultimate link when? An ultimate link to begin when? When is construction starting? HavP you got a deal with Ottawa ·on a ninety/ten basis? WhPi: is it all about,an ultimate link? Hr.

Speaker, they have no definite policy now on transportation in Labrador, none whatsoever - ~!lL SIMHONS: Or on the Island. MR. T. RIDEOUT: Or on the Island 7 and it's little :. wonder, l!r. Speaker that some people in Labrador began to look in 1.47

December 5th., 1978 Tape No. 60 DW - 2 HR. T. RIDEOUT: other directions. There is little wonder because they have been neglected, they have been heaped with neglect by this administration ever since they came to office. This Province, Mr. Speaker, - I have not heard the Minister of Transportation in this Province, this present minister, the former minister, the present l!i.nister of Industrial Development, his former minister and the present Minister of Tourism I have not heard one of them Mr.

Speaker, raising hell about developing an adequate transportation policy for Labrador, have not heard a squeak about it in the House or out of the House, have not heard one squeak, Sir, about an adequate transportation policy for that great rich area of our Province. Have not heard a word fl!mll any of the three former ministers,.of transportation that I have named and we find nothing about it again in the Speech from the Throne. MR. SUll:·10liS: They treat Labrador like a Fifedom. MR. T. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, that same Throne Speech that I am referring to, three or four years ago~spoke of building a roads network in Labrador. Now they talked about the Trans-Labrador Highway from Happy Valley/Goose Bay up through to the Western part of the Province but not only that, Mr. Speaker, they talked about a roads network for Labrador. Was there any reference in the Throne Speech that was read yesterday, Sir, about a roads network for Labrador? Not on your life, Sir! What ~s happened to the grandiose idea? How many miles of road has this administration built in Labrador since it has taken office, Mr. Speaker?

What have they done? Precious little! You only have to make one trip to Labrador, Sir, to realize that. Precious little! It is not in this Speech from the Throne, Sir, not even mentioned. So the transportation policy and the roads network policy that was brought in in a Throne Speech three or four years ago, Mr. Speaker, has obviously the died the normal death of most of the great concepts that 1.48

December 5th., l978 Tape ~o. 60 DW- 3 ' !R. T. RIDEOUT: were included in former Throne Speeches under~ t:h:is administration. There is no doubt about that, Sir, a lot of them nave died the normal death and t:hey do not get referred to anymore. l1r. Speaker, I was very •.happy to hear a week or so ago,as I indicated in Quest:ion Period today ? that the government had negotiated the sale of Labrador linerboard mill. Sir, our position as a pany was so right two years ago when that mill was closed down. The mill ought never had to been closed in tlle first place. We said it,we stood man after man and said it two years ago and now, Str, our position has proven to be so right 1.49

December 5,1978 Tape No. 61 AH-1 ~IP-. RIDEOUT: there was no need of it. I venture to sav. Sir, that this government, this Province saved absolutely nothing by closing down the Labrador Linerboard mill. In fact, Sir, I would venture to say t~at it cost a great deal of money not only in dollars, Sir, not only in dollars but in the social sense. It cost irreparable damage to a whole area of this Province, the Bay St. George area. Newfoundland families, ~r. Speaker, forced by the callousness of this government to move as far away as Iran and the hon. crowd on the other side want to talk about a resettlement policy.

Let them talk about it. There was no need • We could have negotiated the sale of the mill if that was the right thing to do and I happen to believe it ~•as, while it was working. ~~e are probably very lucky to have sold a piece of closed up, ghost town real estate 7 anyway. Then, to think about the social damage that was done to the people of the Bay St. George area. But, Mr. Speaker, having said that I want to say that I am glad that the mill was sold. At least there is a ray of hope for the people of the Bay St.George area again.

Even thought they have been through some dark times there is a ray of hope for them again. But as I indicated in my question today, Mr. Speaker, what about the other areas of the Province that were so dependent on the Labrador Linerboard mill? What about the Roddickton area,for example,in my own district~ The Burlington-Middle Arm area? What about the Goose Bay area in Labrador? I am happy for the people of Stephenville and the people of the Bay St. George area but I am waiting to hear, Mr.

Speaker, from the government the details and the ramifications of the sale of that mill for other areas of the Province that were so dependent on it for economic survival. I think those people . have a right to knm.r .Theirexpectations are up once again, Mr. Speaker, because they were really doi~g well during the period when the mill was operating and they are wondering now where they stand. And I think it is time that the government let them know, and make every effort to ensure,whether it has to be done by the turning over of Crown rimber rights or whether it has to be done through negotiation 150 .·

December 5,1978 Tape No. 61 AH-2 HR. RIDEOUT: with Bowaters, make every effort to ensure that where it is economically feasible the areas of the Province that were so dependent on the operationof the Stephenville mill .· will continue to reap the benefits from that mill once it goes back into operation. To do arty less, Mr. Speaker, would be a dismal failure on the part of those ministers to those people in those particular areas of the Province. Now, Mr. Speaker, there are many other areas I could get into. There was a little mention made in the Speech from the Throne yesterday about education.

The government gave notice that it intends to bring in Grade Xll in 1980,I believe it is. t do not see why it could not be brought in - MR.NEARY: 1982. I MR. RIDEOUT: 1982 is it? I am not sure now. Grade Xll 1980 or 1982? It is going to be phased in by 1980. And, Mr. Speaker, other than the wishy-washy remarks on developing a . proper history curriculum for our schools there was nothing else mentioned in the Throne Speech about education. MR. SIMMONS: Who is going to write the history? ~. RIDEOUT: Somebody is going to be commissioned to write a history. MR.

Sit-IMONS: Accoraing to the reference they have obviously decided •rho it is going to be. You know, it is pretty definite. MR. RIDEOUT: I do not know if the minister can tell us? Has anybo~y been commissioned to write that history yet? AN RON. MEMBER: Mr. Morgan. M"P. RIDEOUT: Mr. Morgan, oh! God help the school children! Anyway, Mr. Speaker, as I ~•as saying, Sir, the only two references to education in the Throne Speech were, you know, the history and also the reference to the phase- in of Grade XII by 1981 or 1982. With all the problems, }!r.

Speaker, that we are facing in education in this Province today there was no addressing the problems in the Throne Speech. we spent hour after hour 1.51.

Tape 61 IB-3 !All. 11IDEOUT: hour, l'r. Speaker, harassing the life out of the Hinister of Ed,·cation during the last session about teacher cutbacks, about cutbacks in scholarship programmes, cutbacks in transportation grants to school boards. We spent day after day, , 1.52 ..: :. --

December 5, 1978 Tape 62 GH- 1 Mr. Rideout: presented petition after petition and, Mr. Speaker, nothing has happened. It does not even deserve a line in the Throne Speech, and that is the educational policy of this government. Now , Mr. Speaker, I accused the Minister of Education last year of being incompetent. At least he could have gotten a line or two into the Throne Speech to let us know what it is about. What new initiatives is the minister going to bring in in the-field of educational development in this Province this year? No indication of that in the Throne Speech, Sir, no indication whatsoever. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the youth of the Province, the youth of this Province, Sir, I would imagine today are very enthusiastic; they are very overjoyed that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador is about to set up a Newfoundland and Labrador Youth Corps. There is no doubt about that, Sir, that is the best news that the youth of this Province have heard from this administration in the past six years. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: The hon. thumper may thump away because he was the only one who was thumping. Forget about that one -now for this year. Mr. Speaker, that is all that was in it.

The youth of this Province, Sir, may have been interested, and I would submit to the House they are very interested, to hear about any job-creation plans this administration might have so that they might have a job next Summer; they would be interested in that type of thing. What happened to the Youth Commission, Mr. Speaker, that this administration set up a few years ago? Now, they got a Youth Commission; now, they need a Youth Corps. I remember debating a bill two or three years ago in this House to set up a youth commission. Somebody - Mr. Furey or other - was appointed head of it.

I have not heard a stir about it since. MR. NEARY: What is Rex Murphy doing now? MR. RIDEOUT: You know, maybe this is going to be a job for Rex Murphy; it could be. MR. NEARY: No1 he has same kind of a job already. :153

Dacctber 5, !97G Tape 62 Cii-2 <.R. r.ID£0Fr: one, cister. Do uot hold your breath. ~:;:.:. F.DEOUT: The ':inister of Tourism c:oulc be \:rang as ;,e usually is, l:r. Speaker. iio, there \}as nothing in tl:e Throne Speecil, ~:r. Spe~er. Yes, the l.:inister of Tourisn, t~e !·.:inister of Tourisu-, .,-anted to run for ::!:.e nomination. The ~!inister of Tourism wa:ntec to run for the Tory no~nation in Bonavista-Trinit)•-Conception, I believe it is called. MR. SIMMONS : :ie could not make up ilis cind ''heti1er he •,ranted the Tory or the Liberal nomination. Ut.

RIDEOUT : That is right; he could not make up his mind. So, izl his usual way - Jut then again, ~!r. Speaker, th ::! Prer..:ier promi:;e~ l~h: that he coulcl say t~h<i.t lte liked, do what :1e liked, criticize tile goverur1ent ~~hen he li~ed, criticize the Premier t:hen ite li.'-<;ed, but he ·.-auld never be kicked out of the Cabinet because cte I< as going to squeak. So you see, l:r. Speaker, the !linister of Tourism is safe; 'Ole is safe in the Cabinet. Tl,ere i!> no doubt aoout that, i!r.

Speaker, bec:auae he opposed t!:te government on ::he budworm issue in the Rouse of Assenilily; ;-,_e vlanted to ?reduce t!1e EcLea:n filra and got i.."""J.to a big public: rm; with his colleague, tne Minister of Housing. Lie did that, 1-:r. Speaker, and he embarrassed the administration. When the Premier t>eut out of t:.'le Province :1e almost - :-,e got Hith the l:inister of Fisheries and almost caused a breekclow-n of the Cabinet. ;Ie did all that.

Any other tlini:;ter would have been given the boot, but the ;:ini.>ter of Tourism went public and said;'If I a.-11 :;iven the ::.oot I Hill spill c;1e beans; I •vill tell the tru::ll. u And the Premier, of course, :;r. Speaker, is afraid of the beans. Tile Premier does not t·rant tile beans to Le spilled. No.v, ::r. Speaker, I ;,•a.'1t to have a 1-~orcl to say a bout the ::i~ister of Justice. The ':inister r:>f Justice gave his usual tl:eatrical IJerformance yesterday in a 3ort cf :1alf-heartecl <:1t tecp t 154 ..:

~eceoDe r 5, 197C 7a::e 62 CH-3 . .:. • RIDECt."T: of Jus.t:.ce i s or. t hl! ay out, t .:at yestercay ::as ' is last ::urrah. :'Ie made Custi!r 1 s las t s tand y.;s tarday , Sir . Rumour L~s it t:!:.D.t be is !.eavin e; ti:.E- ~l: i :'l is sinking; he does not ~ 1ant to :.,e 1 a rt of t !:e sinking ~ ip, :;o he i s go inc , going oefore the next el.acti rrn the ~e: •1 u t y ? re.miar. MR . ''ltUT E: 'le is co ing then fer sure. \~ ell, you i.."llOH, l ook \;hat ~ ap p enaci the last t:ice . So I ~ ea r he is leaVin g . /myl';ay, . !r. S e_iker, the ai.nister yes terd<l y , t e ~~ister of Justice yesterday, ;~.

Speaker, was a living a~;le of t i e old saying, the old adage, that ~ politic ian's f avo urite colour is plai C:, i.>ecause ~ e never saic! anything; he did not knm; "~>h ere to s tand; ~e di no t kocH Wuere to he gin to de .fend the govern..!!:ent . The T':-,rone s,;ee:c: • !r . Speak;:r . u as s o soft it 1~es like puttin g y our h and into r; so rt of b01vl of putt7 anc se ttin& :toth.ing; t her e was nothin g there.

T!1e r:J..nis ter could :lO t fbd a s traw to cling to, s o the old theathrical master himself revert ed to the same old tactics ::hat be is so knoun f or in t h is neuse . ! t was :.e treat by ':l<!:!.nc; cynical; i.t 1as cover you r tracks 1.55

.. December 5, 1978 Tape 63 PK - 1 Mr. Rideout: by sarcasam. It was a plain hypocrisy. But, Mr. Speaker, cynicism, sarcasam, and hypocrisy the minister should know are of no oratorical value whatsoever especially when they are transparent, and he was as transparent yesterday as he could be. Mr. Speaker, the minister tried to justify the existence of the government by getting up and riddling off the St. Lawrence fish plant and two or three other accomplishments from the Throne Speech of last year. He did not get out this particular sheet, Mr.

Speaker, that talks about the goals of the Tory Government are to reach full employment and have price stability. He did not talk about the inexpensive shared-cost programme to cover loss of fishing gear. He did not talk about the $40 million dragger fleet. He did not talk about the fish auction centres around the Province. He did not talk about the 200 jobs at Octagon steel mill, how they can be maintained. He did not talk about legislation to be introduced to control wildcat strikes. He did not talk about any of this.

Dozens and dozens and dozens of great platitudes that were put forth to the people of this Province in previous Speeches from the Throne, he did not talk about any of that,but he tried to justified it with four or five examples that they have succeeded on from the Speech from the Throne last year. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is the type of thing that you will get from the defender of the government. So, Mr.

Speaker, for this side,let the word go out that the affairs of this Province have been sadly neglected by this government, and let it be known that they have no policy to develop adequately the resources of the Province:that was seen in the Throne Speech yesterday. Let it be made clear that honesty and integrity have not been the cornerstone of this administration. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: Let it be realized that the poor have become poorer, and the fat cats fatter under this administration condoning ripoffs to their political friends.

So let it go out to all corners of the Province the type of government that we have had. It has been a corrupt J.56

December 5, 1978 Tape 63 PK - 2 Mr. Rideout: inefficient, bungling administration. So let the word go out, Mr. Speaker, from this side of the House, we are not intended to sit on it, we are not intended to let cover-ups go unchallenged, to let corruption go unnoticed or neglect to go unaccounted for .' If that is the negative, then you will hear it, Sir, in this House day after day. Where there is praise to come, we will praise; but where criticism is necessary then we will criticize.

And when the time comes to fight then we will fight this government from this side of the House,at the polls or wherever they want to meet us, Sir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Tourism. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I did have some hope for the hon. gentleman who last spoke, but it seems to be all gone now. He seems to be following his leader in the same footsteps of the negative attitude '!nd the negative outlook towards our Province and the Province's people. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

MORGAN: Because the Throne Speech does point out quite clearly the policies of this government that have been formulated as a means of consultation with the people of the Province and is going to be of major benefit to the Province and its future. First of all, may I say maybe the Opposition would like to have some proof. AN HON. MEMBER: Yes,I think we would. MR. MORGAN: Maybe it is the time that we tell the truth. Maybe today I should make some headlines by telling some truths about certain Opposition members of the House of Assembly. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

MORGAN: Because if the hon. member who last spoke, maybe if his honourable leader, the present leader, had not resigned his seat back in 1974-1975~well of course he would not be here today to speak in the Assembly. My question is - and I ask it loud and clear - why did the hon. gentleman who is now leader of the Liberal Party quit and run away in 1974-1975? Why did he quit? Why did he foresake 1.57 : -- ~ --

December 5, 1978 Tape 63 I'R. MORGAN: the people? Why? And where did he go in such - foR. F. ROWE: !laking an innuendo. 18- 3 MR. MORGAN: I~· is not innuendo, Mr. Speaker. I make no innuendo. Why the sudden rush to Ottawa to get a passport processed? We all go through the normal regular channels which takes approximately six months in some cases. With his own personal efforts it was processed within a period of two to three weeks. Why the rush to leave our beloved Province? 158 .: ; \. :. -.

., Jecel:lber 5, 1978 Tape 64 Gil-l MR. ~!ORGA:l: Province. lle now comes back to say - A~! HON. !IE~FER: I can get one in two days,sure. ~lR. ~!ORCA~: tvhy? Hhy? AN RON. l1EMBER: I can get a passport - '!!1. ~!ORGA}i : Well, I would li~e the hon. eentle~an who is now aspiring to become the Premier of this Province to tell the people of the Province, to tell us in the !louse of Assembly why he ran away in 1974 and 1975. Tell us why and where did he go. I understood he went to Paris to speak French. I have not heard him speak too much French since that time, French since that ti~e.

I have also heard that he went to take political science. Well, I think if any of us here in this House checked out that with the colleges and universities in France they will find there was no William N. Rowe in France. In fact, I could tell the Tiouse of Assembly exactly how long he was in the country of France. It lvas not long enough to take a course in political science. It was not lone enough to take a course to learn to speak French. So if the Opposition members want the Bonavist3 member to tell the truth for a change, how about some truth? Row about some truth? Well, the fact is, Mr.

Speaker, that I can tell lots of truth, but I think the onus is on the individual concerned, and I am asking him the question, and I am asking him the question. I am asking him the question. Why does not he tell the people of this Province why he forsook them back in ~ hite Bay South back in 1974-75. Let him answer that question. Let him answer it truthfully. The onus is on him· he is the man that is going to become Premier of the Province. answer these questions. SOME RON. MEMBERS: 11R. !·!ORGAN: Oh , oh! Mr.

Speaker. the man who is Let him aspiring to become Premier of the Province stood in the Tiouse yesterday and clearly indicated to the people of this Pro v ince his hypocrisy in re~ards to what he stands for. Pe stands :159 .· #

q ' ~ecember 5, 1978 Tape ~Io. 64 Cll-2 MR. '!ORGAN: now, for example, for Rural Development. :m. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. gentleman is required to withdraw the word 'hypocrisy' and I would point out to all hon. members that there is need for restraint in choice of lan~uage and - :IR. ~·T EARY : Sit down while the Speaker is naking a ruling. :IR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I would ask the bon. gentleman to withdraw the word 'hypocrisy'. ~R. aORGAN: Sure, Mr. Speaker, I follow the rulings of the Chair and I withdraw the word 'hypocrisy' and I will say double standard. ~fR. SPEAKER: Order!

Order, please! Order, please! HR. ~!ORGA~I: He is using a double standard. c!R. SPEAKER: Order, please: I address these words specifically to the ~on. gentleman to my left and, of course, they are - Order, please! - they are operative for all hon. members. One may not evade or avoid o~ dilute or circumvent the ruling of the Chair by substitution of one term for another, so I will ask the hon. gentleman to withdraw the remark without making further re~erence to it. and I will generalize that.

I think perhaps a habit has grown up where an hon. member is required to withdraw something and the answer has often been "Yes, I withdraw that, but I add ..... or · but something else ... " , and actually the requirement for withdrawal is a requirement for withdrawal, full stop, without paraphrasing or attempt to circumvent: and I would say in general as well that hon. members must exercise caution in the language they use toward other hon. members. terms like hypocrisy and terms like deceit and others are to be avoided. T!on. member. :m. :-!ORGAl~: ~r.

Speaker, I withdraw the word 'hypocrisy' and I will continue by saying that what the hon. gentleman stands for now while he is Leader of the Opposition and of the Liberal ~arty is completely contrary to what he stood for when he was nn the government side of the Eouse of 1.60 ..: -.

:>eceober 5, 1973 Tape ~lo. 64 Gt:- J Assembly here. pa rt of the official government. ~!:t. :I tAR Y · Point of order, ~r. Speaker. :m. SPEAKE~ : t have to hear a point of ord er . ..: ~!R. :lEARY: :1r . Speaker, Your !{or: our di recte d the minister , Sir, who is speaking for the ~overnr.tent, speaking for his colleagues, to withdraw a certain statement that was considered by Your Honour to be anparliamentary . There was no 1nterrup ·tion from this sicle . Then , 161

December 5, 1978 Tape 65 IB-1 MR. NEARY: Your Honour,the minister refused to follow the directions of Your Honour and then Your Honour had the second time to instruct the minister,who was being very unparliamentary and lowering the decorum of this House,to withdraw. Then for the second time the hon. gentleman defied Your Honour's ruling and went on to say'but'and then did through the back door what he could not do through the front door.

And I ask Your Honour to direct for the third time the hon. minister to withdraw the unparliamentary remark that he used or Your Honour name the hon. gentleman and have him removed from the Chamber. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. I did withdraw the word 'hypocrisy'which I was instructed to by Your Honour and I was in the process of continuing on with my speech when I was interrupted again by these silly points of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! am in a position to rule on this matter.

Hon. -members will recall that the term 'hypocrisy' was required to be withdrawn, was withdrawn and in so doing the term 'double standard' was insinuated. -I then made the ruling that one could not avoid the ruling of the Chair by the use of a word very similiar. My understanding is that the allegation of 'double standard' toward the hon. gentleman to my right was also withdrawn. The hon. gentleman then went on to say something to the effect that the hon. member does not now advocate the same policies that he, in the opinion of the han. gentleman to my left, advocated at a different time.

I think this is a question of a difference of opinion with respect to a question of fact or alleged fact but not an imputation of motive or a personal allusion. There obviously could be difference of opinion on it but the personal allusion or inference is lacking there. The hon. member. MR. MORGAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, yes,it is my opinion that it is a complete about-face in regards to the positions 1.62

December 5, 1978 Tape 65 IB-2 m. MORGAN: on policy that is now advocated by the Leader of the Opposition and the official Opposition, the Liberal Party Leader because when he was in government he advocated then -he did not advocate support for rural development, we ·an know his position on that- he advocated recentralization, ·. or resettlement rather and centralization programmes. And he was also at the same time the minister responsible, the minister in a position to carry out policy, to develop policy on rural development but did not do it.

But he now stands in favour of the rural development policies of this government. He also of course now stands for getting a fair deal from the Upper Churchill. But was he not part of the government, the party that was then in power\that gave away the Churchill Falls power, the Upper Churchill that puts us now in such a very serious condition as a Province? We would be today a have Province if it was not for the fact that the power had been given away by that party which was then in power. Mr. Speaker, he advocates a policy - MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order . MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, the han. gentleman either stated or implied that my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition, Sir, was a member of the administration - MR. MORGAN: The party, party. MR. NEARY: No, was a member of the administration, Sir, or party, even a party,that was involved in the negotiations of the Upper Churchill. Sir, that is false. It is misleading. My han. colleague was not,as the han. Minister of Justice can bear witness, a member of that administration. But I do believe the Minister of Justice was a member.

And I am calling upon the Minister of Justice to make it clear to this House that the han. gentleman,who was a member of that administration, who I believe participated in the negotiations for the Upper Churchill, can verify that my colleague was not a member of that administration. I ask the han. gentleman to withdraw and apologize to my colleague. 1.63 :.

December 5, 1978 Tape 65 IB-3 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I am in a position to deal with this matter. Actually, in my understanding there is no point of order involved. There are obviously differences of opinion With respect to fact. It is a questi <on of fact: either the hon. member was or he was not a member of a certain administration at a certain time,or he was or he was not a member of a certain party at a certain time. But these are differences of fact or differences of opinion with respect to fact and these are not matters on which the Chair can make a ruling. MR. MORGAN: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. It seems that the silly points of order may be an intention to cut clown my time which is limited to fqrty-five minutes. Mr. Speaker, the Throne Speech clearly outlines the polices of this government and clearly oytlines where this government intends to put this Province in the future, in a position that we will becQI!e a have Province in the not-too-distant future, primarily because it is a planned development. I recall bac;:k a :164

ilecet:tber 5, 1973 Tape 66 GH-1 HR. ~!ORGAN: plan developed. I recall back a few years ago, the Opposition Bembers complaining bitterly and loudly about the studies we were doing in regards to resource development. They complained about all the studies we were .· doing, feasibility studies, etc., task force reports~ That was the plan to first of all find out what should be done in the Province in a proper planned way; and now we see the policies as a result of these studies and plans that were formulated a few years ago.

The fisheries is clearly outlined in the Throne Speech, the positive aspects of our fisheries, yet the Leader of the Opposition keeps saying that the Throne Speech is barren; it is empty. Yesterday it was unbelievable to me, I sat here for an hour and a half and I watched the hon. Leader of the Opposition flailing his hands around the House of Assembly and kept on repeating "It is barren: it is empty. There is ~othing in the Throne Speech: it is empty. There is nothing for the future of this Province. We are doomed to economic disaster." A quote -a quote "He are deemed to economic disaster".

And the people of our Province, of course, were listening and saw and I said to myself ''I sincerely hope that we will one day get the cameras in the House of Assembly to televise the proceedings, because if we have two or three more episodes like we saw yesterday, I think that the Liberal party will have difficulty in finding a few me!I'.bers in the House after the next election". Because he kept saying that ''Look, the Opposition is not negative· it is ::::.ot negative:' It is negative If it is not negative, why are t~e people saying it throughout the Province 'The Opposition is completely negative".

AN HOl!. ~EMBER: Ed, we want Ed. :m. cWRGAN~ They are saying;' We want Ed" around the Province. Editorials are saying that the Opposition are -- negative in their attitude towards the Province's prospects, the Province's economy. Everything is ne~ative. Open-line 1.65

::lecenber 5. 1978 Tape 66 G:'-2 ~!R. ~ORGA~T: moderators are saying it. Day after day they are saying it, and I am sure that some of the o~en- line moderators who are sayin~ it are not partisan in our direction, are not known to be; they are known to he non- partisan. They are just out there doing their jobs as o~en- line moderators and they listen to the views of the people on ~heir programs, what people are saying; people are saying the Opposition is completely negative.

And yesterday the Leader of the Opposition clearly indicated that, because despite the fact that the Throne Speech points out all the plans that we have the fishery we are going to build a multi - purpose vessel to prosecute the seal fishery - that is negative? - completely negative. Everybody in Bonavista South says it is negative. Hello negative~ The only person saying it is negative is the Opposition. We are going to establish additional ice-making capacity. Ue are going to establish better fish-handling facilities. We are going to increase the cold-storage facilities.

We are going to develop new products, establish a new laboratory product or a new product laboratory. We are going on a major mar~eting i~itiative, which has been going on for the last year or so. These are all negative things according to the Opposition. He said ·All fisheries are not being developed in this Province. The government is not developing it' they have seven or eight ministers. · There was one outright untruth right there - seven or eight ministers. If I recall correctly we have Mr. Cheeseman, my ton. friend, the Minister of Health, the hen. Minister of ~ealth, the hen. Mr.

John Crosbie, now the M.P. for St. John's West, and the present minister; but the Opposition Leader said se7en or eight; we have had seven or eirht ministers who ~ould not develop, who coulu not plan ;.. develo pment of the fisheries. And the fisheries conference -. 1.66

December 5, 1978 TaJ?e 66 CH-3 HR. :roRGA~l . was a partisan organization, and I hope ray good friend, the :!inister of Fisheries, is not ~oinc; to listen ~o what I have to say because it is going to be controversial: because the hon. Leader of the Opposition yesterday afternoon stood in the !louse and said '"The }!inister of Fisheries usud the conference 167

December 5, 1973 Tape 67 GH-1 !-!R. ~ORGA;r : for partisan reasons, for partisan reason, because it vas filmed by a PR firm. Dell, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, a certain Opposition member of the Rouse of Assembly at ~hat same conference, at that same conference, guess what he was doing? Guess what he was doing? Pressuring, not soliciting, but pressuring certain companies to give donations to the Liberal party at that same conference, and I can prove it, Mr.

Speaker, and I can pass it on to my colleague, the Minister of Fisheries, the names of the companies, names of people contacted and a certain Opposition member,spokesman for the fisheries, at the conference put the pressure on a certain company,at least one I can prove,to make donations to the Liberal 9arty. MR. F. RO~oTE: Point of order. MR. MORGAN: At a government conference. at a government-conference. l!R. SPEAKER: Point of order. :-J:R. F.

ROWE: The hon. the Minister has now named the person who he is accusing of put~ing pressure on presum~bly an executive officer of a firm at a fisheries seminar for the purpose of political contributions. ~ow, ~r. Speaker. I deny that emphatically, number one, and I ask the Minister to withdraw the remark if he cannot provide the witness or the proof. !·!R. MORGAN· Point of order? cfR. F. ROHE : That is· the point of order, Sir. It is an untruth and unless the Minister can prove it, brin~ witnesses before the House or an affidavit, I ask him to withdraw the remark. MR. SPEAKER: Hon. minister. :1R. ~!ORGAN' · Mr.

Speaker, I do not intend to withdraw the remark, I am tellin• the truth: the facts and everything I said this afternoon is facts and the truth. ~fR. SPT::AKER: Order, !'lease! :168 _ ... :.

DeceMber 5, 1978 Tape 67 CW-2 '·!R. MORGAN : I am not ~oing to withdraw an~thin~ I said was the truth. MR. SPEAKER: Order, ?lease! Order , please! This matters seems to well, it does not seem to, it does centre around the allegation of the hon. g8ntleman to my left that some hon. nember to my right solicited, he said pressured, pressured, solicited. requested, pressured, contributions to a political party at a certain meeting, at a meeting of the fisheries conference,at a certain conference.

For a matter to be unparliamentary, it must impute false or unavowed motives or be a cha~ge of a falsehood; abusive and insulting language is the most general term. The soliciting of political contributions is not to my - or pressuring - well, pressure - well, let me put it this way: the soliciting of political contributions is not against the law or against the Standing Orders of the House. Such a thing could be with a change in the law or a change in the Standing Orders, but it is not now, so there is no allegation of any wrongdoing in stating that.

UI;_ether that happened or not is a difference of opinion between members. :f some member alleges ~t, another member denies it, it is not for the Chair to decide; it is a difference of opinion with res?ect to alleged facts. So there is not in a soliciting of political contributions, there is not an allegation of any wrongdoin~. Now, an attempted extortion obviously is an allegation of wrongdoing. What pressuring is, on which side o~ the line that is, it certainly is not an allegation of extortion.

It is more than an allegation of requesting; I suppose it is an allegation of requesting very strongly, very firmly, but as long as there is not an allegation of any wrongdoing , then I cannot rule it out of order. In order to clarify the matter, I think the best way of clarifying the matter there is no technical definition of 'to pressure' - in order to clarify 169 ::. --

;)ecenb er 3. 1978 Tape 67 Gl!-3 ~m . SPEAKER: the matter , if the hon. member will make it clear that he was not making an •llegation bf anrthins o: 11rongdoing, :·rR. )lEARY: Or questioning the honour of my bon. friend. NR . SPEAKER: WELL, of wrongdoing, the~ I think t:tat will c.over it. Because of the a·mbiguity of the terc "pressuring', I cannot come up with a technical definition of pressuring' , so if the hon . gentleman !Jill make that clear that qill dispose of the mat:er. :·!~ . HORGAil: Mr. Speaker , I did not make any accusation of wrongdoing; I merely pointed our the activities of a certain membe r of the Opposition, in this case the spokesman on the fisheries, 1.'('0 : :.

--7 I December 5th., 1978 Tape No. 68 m.; - 1 l1R. J. Nll&GAN: while attending a fisheries conference which was convened by the Minister of Fisheries and sponsored by the Newfoundland Government. I did not say it was wrong what he did. Uhat I am se.ying is it is rather unique that on one side we have the Opposition Leader saying the ~ster of Fisheries used the conference for partisan purposes, for partisan reasons by having the conference filmed by a PR firm.

What I am saying is that the same people took advantage of the con- ference to use it for a different partisan reason,to raise funds for the Liberal Party. 'tlhet'tier it is wrong or not is not my interpre- tat ion MR. s. NEARY: A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. }fit. SPEAKER: A point of privilege. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am glad that Your Honour let the hon. gentleman go on and repeat what the hon. gentle- man had been saying for the last five minutes. 11r.

Speaker, the statement just made by the hon. gentleman that my han. co:Heague used the fishery conference for partisan political purposes to either solicit or to pressure anybody into donations for the party,that statement, Sir, is false 9 it is a lie, it is an untruth and it should be withdrawn. It is not true, Mr. Speaker, it is a lie. And I ask~ Your Honour to ask the bon. gentleman to withdraw it. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ Order, 'please! There is no matter of privilege on which the Chair can make a decision .

The han. member TJhen directed by the Chair to clarify or to state that he TJas not making an allegation of TJrongdaing did so. What he is nOTJ doing is alleging tl1at an hon. gentleman to my right for political motives did something at the conference. It is not a question of TJhether it is true or not. The Chair does not decide on that. It is a question of fact and a difference of opinion with respect to fact;either an hon. member requested some- body for political contribution or he did not request him for political contribution.!he Chair is not in a position to make the decision one TJay or the other.

It is totally a difference of opinion TJith respect 171.

December 5th., 1978 Tape No. 68 Dt-1 - 2 ~!R. SPEAKER: to fact and not a matter on•· which the Chair can take any further action. For example, it is not the first time we have heard allegations that something has been done for a political reason - this road paved or not paved for a political reason, or this water system installed or not installed for a political reason. : So the allegation that an hen. member at the conference did something political is not a matter involving a privilege of the House or a matter on which the Chair can make a determination.

There appears to be very clearly a difference of opinion with respect to alleged fact but those differences will have to be canvassed in debate but it is not a matter on which the Chair can make a ruling. HR. F. Rot<IE: }fr. Speaker, on a matter of personal privilege, Sir, at the risk of being repetitious, I would like to inform this House, Sir, that I did not approach a single person at the fisheries seminar for the purpose of soliciting HR. MORGAN: I can name him. MR. F.ROWE: - party contribution of ·any kind whatsoever. I did not approach a person, Sir.

It is an absolute falsehood, Sir, what the hen. minister is suggesting. It is a lie, Sir, it is not the truth and I would ask the minister, if he continues with this particular course of argumentation, that he provide the proof, the affidavits, anything that is necessary, but prove it. The han. minister cannot stand in this House and tell a lie, Sir, and get away with it.

He may be able to do it technically within Beauchesne or within_ the Standing Orders of this House, Sir, but I state emphatically for the sake of my own honour as an elected representa- tive of the people that what the minister is saying is absolutely untrue, it is a_lie, Sir. I ask him to withdraw. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! Hay clearly points out that an han. member may get the attention of the Chair on a point of privilege and .-.!. then make a matter of personal explanation, which the han. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Hr. F. Rowe) has done. He has made a matter 1.72

December St!h., 1978 Tap e No. 68 DW - 3 MR.. SPEAKER: or personal explanation presenting to the House his statement, so it is not; a l!Ultter now on which any debate can be heard~The explanation has been made by the hon. gentleman for T~n.ity - Bay de Verde and it is not a matter which l!UlY be debated. MR. MARSHALL: A point of privtlege. !1R. SPEAKER: Another point of personal privilege. HR.. ~-!.\."-SHALL : Not a personal privilege, priVilege of the House. In the course of the statements made by the hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde and the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) the words were clearly used,the statements that were made by t:he ho.n. minister were a lie. We are going to have it degenerate :173 ....: ...

December 5, 1978 Tape 69 ~. MARSHALL: like other sessions, I would suggest that - MR. NEARY: Well why do you not talk to your colleague. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ IB-1 MR. MARSHALL: I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that these words cannot be allowed to remain on the record of the House without being withdraw by both hon