1 j Volume 2 J PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 2nd Session VERBATIM REPORT Wednesday, February 21, 1973 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 9

February 21 1 1973 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Hr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Tape No. 205 NH - l HON. R. t. CHEESEMAN MINISTER OF FISHERIES: M:r. Speaker 1 an announcement was made today by the honourable Jack Davis from Ottawa which I feel will be of considerable interest to this province.

The announcement had to do with the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation and its participation in the 1973 season and for a three year period~ In order that this should be clarified for the benefit of those who perhaps have merely heard the statement and are not aware of the impact, I would like to now make a statement. I am very pleased to learn today of the approval by the federal government of a programme put forward for consideration by the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation.

The effect of this proposal is for the corporation to become more involved in the production area of the salt fish industry by means of the upgrading of processing facilities and the addition of machinery, etc. Since assuming office, this Governnent through the Department of Fisheries have been in constant touch with the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation. A number of meetings have been held with Mr. Maloney, President of the corporation at which time we expressed the concern of the government over the declining production of salt fish, particularly in view of strong market demands and prices.

This concern was brought abut by the fact that production of salt cod fish over a five year period had gone from 432.000 quintals to a 1972 figure of approximately 100,000 quintals. I should say here, the 432,000 uas five years ago, today's 1971, which is 1972 figures, was approximately 100,000 quintals or twenty-five per cent of the five year ago production. Mr. Maloney during the course of our meetings, assured us of his concern in this regard and further assured us that he would be making suggestions to the federal government and impressing on them the need 629

February 20, 1973 Tape No. 205 NM - 2 MR. CHEESEMAN: for a capital programme which would_ permit far greater participation on the production side of the industrye I have therefore been well aware for some time of the steps being taken by Mr. Maloney to meet the needs as we saw them. I am of course very happy to see that in this instance the federal government has agreed with our thinking and with that of the corporation* Hopefully this programme will reverse the present 530

February 21, 1973 Tape 206 PK - 1 desirable trend of decreasing production and to allow the salt fish fishermen and the processing industry to benefit to a greater degree from this lucrative market. !n keeping with our own express desire and that of the C0nndian Salt Fish Corporation it is encour-8.rinr also to note that the proposed programme will place rirenter emphasis nn consumer packed production of sale fish products. This emphasis will we hope provide additional emplo:rment opportunities within the industry in terms of the upgrading of our products.

We are hnppy with the announced overall programme particularly as it is in Jine with our own thinkin~ and recommended course of action expressed hy us to the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation. Thank you, Nr. SpeaYer, PFTITIONS MR. F. H. WINSOR: ~,Jr. Speaker, 1 heg leave to present n petition. actually it is a douhle-barrelled petition. Tt is from the Community of Change Islands. The petition is signed by approximately 280 citizens of that cormnunity. The prayer or the request is for the upgradinp, and restructurinF of t¾e road through the community.

That is part one, Part two is for a construction of a road from Change 1sland itself across the island to South End. ~ow. Sir. Change Tsland is 1,tdckly a fishing corr.munity. T. recall the other day the honourable ~lin.ister of Justice in his capad.ty as Acting. Prem:l.er makinp a statement to the effect that the people have a right to live where they wish. ne that as it may,and 1 have no argument on that score.

However, if people are going to live in communities we.re they are isolated then it :i.s the duty I think of the government to provide facilities and services in order that those people, especially the fishermen, will have. an opportunity to provide a decent living for themselves and their families. So, Hr. Speaker, I strongly support this petition-and ask that it be laid on the table of the House and have it referred to the department to which

February 31, 1973 Tape 206 PK - 2 it relates. MR. W. C. GILLETT: Mr. Speaker, it p.ives me great pleasure to support the petition signed by 280 residents or I should say voters perhaps of Change Islands. I am well acquainted with Change Islands. 1 have been there on many occasions. As my honourahle friend from Fogo has stated~ it is solely a fishinR community.

Februarv 21. 1973 Tape 207 JM - 1 and a good fishing community. very close to the fishin!; grounds, it is a verv enviahle community. Being an island and not hcing in a location where it cnn be connected to the mainlanrl by 2 cmt,~t":-vay it will always remain that unique sodetv of nn island I would say. ;:.ow I rlo not know the distance from the tickle, f'hanP,e Islands beinF n community on both sides of the tickle for the most part. to South End, flnt T would sny it is about six miles. AN HON. HE!ABER: Nine miles. ----~, " --- MR.

GILLETT: }line mil.cs, Thhi. of course, will t'.ive n vfTY narrow gap, so to speak, to the mainJand and T think it is sor1cthinp: that has to come, definitclv hn.s to come if Clrnnee Is1nnds is to be a viable community. The ref ore, 'tr. Speaker. 1 support this petition wholeheartPdlv ;,nd trust that the road will he uri?raded around the community and a new road constructed to South End. MR. G.M. HTLS0;"-1: Mr. Speaker, T have a petition to present to this hon.

House and the contents read fl as follows: ''He, the residents of the Goulds Road, Makinsons,make petition for the 1mpradini:: of the piece of road leading from the Concention Rav Highwny to the llod(".ewuter Line, commonly known as the Goulds Road." Hr. Siwrdwr, this road for a nurnher of years nothing hns been done with it. This Bprinp the rond have been done iust ahnut one mile and the people in this area arc p.ravelv concerned because the children have to wa1k out to a school bus over a mile. Therefore, Hr.

Speaker. after twentv-tvo years with no thin,?: done on this road I. as a member for 'Port de Grave. sugpes ts great urgencv to see that there is something done about it. 1 have great pleasure, Mr. Speaker, in presentin? this petition to this House and ask thnt it be placed upon the tah1c and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to support the pPtition presented on behalf of the people on the Goulds Ro.ad Area nenr Hakinsons. J think S :J 3

February 21. 1973 Tape 207 JM - 2 that it is about time that something was done about that piece of road. The children have to walk C'onsiderable distances to _r.-et school buses and T might sav. Hr. Speaker, that that is not the only oart of the District of Port de Grave where children have to walk 1ong distances in all kinds of weather to get n school hus, The hon. member who presented the petition is well aware of this as the hon. member owns the school bus.

I think, that operates in that area. tf the hon. member is not able to convince tlie Minister of Finance to use some of that windfall.that bonanza that came from the hon. John Turner the other day1 in Ottawa 11.n the new budget, thPn perhaps, Mr. Speaker, T rnir!l1t be able to make n sup,gestion to the hon. 634

February 21, 1973, Tapv 208, Pnp.e 1 -- aph member for Port de Grave, that he tried to get the proiect included in federal funding for a provineial make~,.,oric propramme. This ad:ministration is still procrastinntjng on that r:1-nttcr, Hr. f:peai-:er. There :is C./1,4 mi.Ilion 1f not more, it is prntiahly un to qr, miJl:1.on or $12 mi.Uian now, available to this nrovince for make Hort- rrop._ram.'Tlefl and we have not heArd a thin~ about it vet. No proposals have gone to Ottawa vet aml it is t!wre for the asking. These are forgivable loans, Sir, they are grants .and forgivnble Joans.

Perhaps the honourahle mernher can get that road inclmfod in one of these proiects ns a maY'.e-work pro_iect for that p:,rt of r:onc.eption flay. MR. CHEESE!AAN: Mr. Spcat,er ~ T would l He- to tnbl e the answers to "~--- ------- ~--" t,;..u Questions asl;e<l earlier in the Hous!' by the honourable mer,,ber for Bell Island and the honourable member for Twillin,rate. ORDERS OF TilE DAY:_ !AR. NEARY· iAr. Spealrer, I would like to direct a nuestion to the -----~ - -- Hfnistcr of Finance.

Will the minister confirm or denv that there is nn investigation on the illegnl importation of ciparettes and tobacco into this province 1 for resale? Jf so. has the report of the investigation been received and will it he taJ-,Jed? 'W. J .C .CPOSRIE (MINISTER OF FINAJCE) '. confirm it nor I will not deny it. The answer is no. 1 vH 1 not NR. NEAPY· Obviously the minister is hiding sol'T!ething, 1"'r. Spea!ter. NR. CROSBIE: I vmnt to set the menber's mind at rest.

Actually it ··------- is public knowled~e that there is an investigation of cirarette smugglinr:, I suppose you might call it, from other nrovinces into the province. I have not checked on it lately to see what the status i;:;, but there certainly is some illegal activity goin? on. Whether there were any prosecutions laid I do not know. I do not think onvone has been cllarp,:ed yet. Im • NEARY : Would the honourable minister undertake to cr'ecJ.- on it.

February 21, 1()73~ Tape 208, f'11pc- 2 ~- n.ph Mr. Speaker? He dirl not answer the secrind part of th? oue:,;tfon· will the report be tal"'led in this Hou.sf' when it :is received? MR. CROSBIE: ' 1r. Snf'aker. the renort is not likelv to 1,(" t;:itled :in the House. It would be the basis for chor?t'S to h,p 1a:id, sn it ls not customary to table th.at kind of thing in the House. !llL P.S.THOMS: Mr. Sneaker, 1 wou]d J:ih:: to direct a question to the Minister of Justice. Does the rinister plan to plnce n continpP,nt of the R.C.r,r.P, in the Gamho /lrea? AN HON. ttEMBFR: A whole fort of them. - cc MR.

W.N.ROWE: vr. Sreaker, T i:ould 1:i.ke to direct a ouPstfr•n to the Pfnister of Hf'alth. WiJl the minister inform the House what Atepfi have heen taken hv himself or his department to rcplnce Dr. ~-'isik who unfortunately passed aw,c1v recentlv in the Town and Area of Hampden? Cnn he also inforr, me pnrticularly, !!r. Spenker, ns 636

Februarv 21 , 1 q 71 Tape 209 to i,._,hat chance when a doctor is 11.kelv tn he fnnnd tn reoL1cP nr. \lj,;ik In that town. in thF" House n few dav,s ;ir.n, lt \.HIS wi,th rnnsiderahle c0ncern we learned of the sudden death of Pr. :'1istk. /1 t the preRent time the nrranpernents are heinp rn:-ide hv ~Prinvrlalc nnd Deer Lake tn rdve emergency services to the nren. nn the rmestinn nf a rf'nlneement, 1 c:mnot he specific.

There nre nt the nres,;nt t.im~ ten doctors heing vetted for the orerntlon, to rnfTle tr thi.<: ,mmtn' in the next four nr fi.ve months. l!opefu11v one of thos,, Hi: l hP rilnced in ~prinpda]e and neerlake: to cover the emergencv. 'ir. <::ncaker, I wnuJd like to din•(t :1 nnec;ti0n t0 the i\ssncinti.on is unhnnr.-1: 1,1 ith the r.arihou \l,1nage1T.ent ;'\nJ;i ;mf1 ?one of L:1br11dor and the f;,_ribon J, i ("ensi ne a} 1 n.cnt l nns in Lnhr0( 1or. rl0Ps tlw mtnist('r nr nnv mr111t'er of the Fildl1.fr, nivi,;ion contemr,l,>te rneetiiw vith up nnY11 ~ 1 r. ~P<>aker. l tnlze notice nf thnt ri11estlnn.

I vill 11nr1crtnke to hnvv the nnsFer hy tomnrrov. 1,rn_ u. 1mnnLANTl: Mr. ~neaker. T vmuld like to direct a rwcstinn tn rhr - -·~· -- ----- hon. Minister of Finance. I would lil;e the minister to infr>r"' thP !-ln11<sc if he is nwnre thnt the woodland's manar:er of Labrador Lincrf'>oard in C,nose R;,v iR leavin~ hls inh nnd nlso the mrd1:mi cn1 }> n0rintendrmt '"lr. Tpmnle I think his name is? 1eavi.ng thnt -pnrticular _ioh? in the ,_•nnds oPerntions becm1se v:e nre tenrin.itinr_ the arrrmrcement with Fnrrestn1. I forget their fu11 nnrne.

Anvwnv r,~rTf><::t:il vere m;mnging the wrny 1c; oneratlon for ns, nnrl thev have heen f'.iven n0ticP of terminntinn. We nrP roing tn manage the nnerntion ourselves. AN HON. r,mi.1BFR: t.rtiv? -~---- ~-·-~---

February 21, 1973 Tape no. 209 Page 2 HR. CROSBIE: It was never contemplated that this would continue. They were brought in on an emergency basis last year, in February, to carry on the operation of woods and recommend what should be done to develop the woods plan, this kind of thing. There is no longer any need of that and we will be putting our own woods manager there and this is presumably why Mr. Gleason is going. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture.

In view of the comments made on Monday bv the Federal Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, has the minister contacted the honourable Jean Chretien with reference to discussing the needed changes if any in the boundaries of the Gros Morne National Park? MR. E. MAYNARD: Mr. Spt!aker, I have contacted Mr. Chre.tien 1 s office, of course. Mr. Chretien is ill. He had a heart attack some times ago. He is only in his office during the question period in the House of Commons or only at work, but we have contacted the honourable Jean Chretien.

February 21, 1973 Tape no. 210 Page l - MRW We are trying to arrange meetings now relative to the Grose Horne National Park. MR. SPEAKER: It being Private Hei:nbers' Dav, motion 5, the hon. Minister of Highways. HON. DR. T. C. FARRELL (Minister of _HiJQ_'.~ay3_}: Mr. Speaker, the amendment we were discussing concerning the denturists, I feel that ch;s honourable House has exh,msted1v deb,.,ted this subject in a most constructive, I would think, nnd n0npartisnn manner 0n both sides. I feel that most that probably needed to he said has been said alreadv.

As was npeaking a·t the dose the other dav, I thought I would add a tew more remnrks to my previous .statements, did say that the health of our people and the continuous improvement of our health facilities, :!ncludins~ dentistr-y, is absolutely essential to our well-beini.;. I know to mv personal knowledge that the Newfoundland Dental Association over the past several years have been working very hard to improve the dental facilities throughout the province and have discussed the possibility of mobile clinics, even to arens which do not have any roads.

We have discussed -with our people and I feel they have been doing quite a bit to improve the facilities. At this ti.me. as I said the other day~ u'lder the situation that exists presentlv in the province with denturists, there are a tot of areas thnt have to be very carefully looked at.

I know I am repeatjng some of the m:itters and points that were brought out the other day. 1 do repeat, however, that a rigid enforcement of our existing laws be maintained under the Dental Act until this honourable House decides that thev should be changed. ! repeat that very emphatically. l do regret a (e,..1 things and particularly the attitude of the denturists because thev have refused

February 21, 1973 Tape no. 210 Page 2 to give their numbers practicing outside the lmJs of our province or any information concerning their qualifications. I think this is a true statement. Now as has been brought out in certain cases which were investigated by the R~ C. M. P., the conditions under which the ones who were prosecuted were practicing, were extremely unsanitary. I do not need to go into this. This is a matter of record. I feel that this is extremely important to our welfare.if thcv reuse materials in taking impressions and do not have the proper sanitary 640

February 21, 1973 Tape No, 211 NM - 1 I mention that point for the fact that it is so important that very high standards be set up before any legislation is brought in. I would say that the point about low cost to the public, from our investigations ,are not quite correct. It has been proven factually that in areas where they have been licenced that their fees hnve gradually crept up bec.ause of the extra over­ heads thn.t is necessary under the legislation,in the other areas that their fees have crept up to a level comparable to dentists in supplying the same dentures.

I feel that some of the people who are practicing as denturists in this province have, due to legislation being enacted in other jurisdictions, have been forced (probably not the correct word)into Newfoundlnnd 1 pr;wt.lcin7, where there in no legislation to control them. Now I would like to say that 1 would fully support denturists in this province. I think figures have been state<l at - we are short approximately forty dentists at the present time in the province.

I feel that a training programme such as for instance has been initiated in British Columbia where there has he.en instituted n two year study under a dentist or in n dental technical cnllev,e, together with two years under the prcccptorship of a dentist or in a certified dental laboratory, l think a very important point here ie a certificate of oral health be given prior tn them being allowed to go ahead in this province. I feel this is very important.

There are a few other points I would like to mention the cases that I feel are very important, havinp, practiced for muny years in rural parts of this province~that subsidization idcns that have been projected in the last few days in more-rural areas of our province,that this should be considered very carefully by this government,

February 21, 1973 Tape No. 211 NH - 2 so that we can get dentists into these rural areas where there is a great scarcity of them at the present time. I propose that, without any further ado, having made the points that I had not made in my last speech, 642

Fehruary 21, 1973 Tape 212 p;: - 1 that we p:o ahead and vote on the anendment. Thank ynu. MR. C. R. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, I would like to speaJ· in favour of that amendment~ very briefly. T suppose. the need for denturists and dentists is as acute or maybe even more acute in my district than in uny other district in the island. At least one member of my family has found it necessary to wear uppers. On several occasions had to visit dentists and to sav the least, the cost is staggering.

There is om> point that I would like to f'.O rack to and that ,.:as the fact the honourable memher for Green Bay hrought out the other d.ay that this prol:ahly should never heen brought to the floor of this flomie or the need might have not heen there for the Leader of the Opnosition to brinp: l.t in hs.d the denturists done what the hommrah1t> rnernher suggested and that was to present a brief to the t1inister of Health. !t prohably could have pone through the regular channels and this it ».Tmlct not nave Ct., necessary to take up all this time, the time it has tnJ:en in this House. }fP, R0HFTI.TS: noes the hnnoura.hle mernt'er think that the llPuse ~,hould not take the time on this suh·ject?

Not necessarily but it cou1d hnve rone through repular channels and we would probably have gotten the same results. Since ue have all agreed, there has been no disagre~ment. HR. ROBERTS: !-'iomething funny. funny happened, }'R. BRETT: That is not true. ------- HR. ROBFRTS: It is true then. im. BRITT· It is not true. MR. ROBERTS: Some of the dentists would probably Orop dea/1 - MR. BRFTT· Oh, well that part of it, yes. Well explain yourself. HR, ROBERTS: Inaudible. ?.fR. BRETT· Another point, lfr.

Speaker, I would like to maYe is that we are not aware at this time and this ctRain has heen rehashed and said over and over but we are not aware of the qualifications of the practicing

February·Zl, 1973 Tape 212 PK - 2 denturists,.that is there educational or their professional qualities. We do not know the conditions under which they work. I think this is something that we have to be very careful of. It appears, I say it appears I am not sure that they do not want to give us this information. So therefore I say at this point in time there is no way that they should he allowed to practice. The need, Sir, for denturists in our province, particularly in our rural areas is great. But I do not think that the great need should blind us to the real facts at the moment.

It is ille~al for denturists to practice now. It should remain so until they are properly trained and le~islation is set µp ~overnin~ their operation. As I have said before, Sir, this House has agreed unanimously to set up a select committee to study the problem. This of course is the only sensible solution. I wholeheartedly support the move. But I t-:ould like to say. Sir. that the actions of this House to date has already brought some r ivourahle response for the people that we represent,

February 21. 1973 Tape 213 on both sides of the House,Accord1nr to the radio and the press, th0 dentists have rlecidcrl suddenly to come up with dentures for almost half the cost for which they nre selling them now. Probablv T should say, and I wlll ro on record, that where you can buv dent11res at the moment from denturists for $25.DO to S10.00 per set that if and when this is lee:alized. and I think the hon. Minister for Transportation and Comrnunicntion just brought this out.

I think once they are legalized vou wi)l no lonrer get your uppers and lnwers for 525.00 to $30.0fl, I will go on record as snyinr- that it will cost cqunJlv J},f - 1 as much as what you are goint; to have to pay the dentists. Ncverthf'less. Sir, I do support the amendment. HON. __ G.R .. _ OTTE~1HElMER(MINISTER OF EDUCATION): Mr. Speaker, it is not my intention to speak ,1t any lenrth on thfa wlrntsoever. I would however like to refer to the possible ontcone of this cieb.nte. the question before the House of the ar,rwintment of a nr1ect committee which wil.l make a report to the Hause.

Without wishinf' to nntidpnte the view of the House in votin)! on that ouestion 0r without wishinr: to anticipat~ if that vnte i.s affirmative t!'ie recomnwnd;itions of n select committee. without trislling to antidn;,t(, thnt I would make the point that if the vote were affirmative, if the House does in fact nass the ,iuestion that there be;, seJect committee and if thP select committee recommendatton should be favourable toi,;ard the nosit inn of denturists in thP nrovince,, then 1 would sur;gest that whatever the select committee mny decide, if in fact it is formed, that it should be rlone with not haste but certainly without undue postponement.

The reason being,of course. that we should in this province.with thP technical institutions that we have, and I am thinking in particular now of the College of Trades and Technology, be able ourselves to provide this course.Without knowin? very much about this particular µrofcssion or skill 1 it would certainly require at least two anrl perhaps three years of professional training. !tis important that any institution which were C A C: I} "JC J

February 21, 1973 Tape 213 to ~ive this training, and it would be something quite new for the nrescnt collcpc, it obviously be important that there be some consult.;1tion ,mrl exchan?-e of information with recognized institutions Piving diplomas and recognized profession accreditation. It would be important to set up n curriculum. It would be important to have proper instructors for it. nvnths 646 All of this certainly takes at least a few JM - 2

February 21, 1973, Tape 214, Pagel -- apb because it is not an area obviously related to health care as it is. It is not an area in which one can move without being completely sure that the course of instruction is appropriate, that the instructors are thoroughly professionally qualified and also, of course., of establishing the entrance requirements for such a course.

Again, without wishing to anticipate the wish of the House or the deliberations of a select committee if :i.n fact there is one, I would sugµest that if there is to be one 1 they realize that this is an area of quite some complexity in professional education, the findin~ of instructors, the establishnent of a curriculum and the recruitment of students. The College of Trades and Tr,c1:no logy hos courses in paramedical areas, in X-Ray technolor:v and re.lated areas. A), HON. }'FFBER: ?--fR. OTTENfiE!MER: In pharmacy. And in rhnrr.acy, yes.

This I thint, would be - there is an area of similarity there relnted to health care in which it is necessary that professional standards be implemented to the greatest dep:ree. There :ts one other remark only that I wish to make rmd that :ts and I believe other honourable members have :mentioned this, p(>rhaps on both sides of the House. I <lo not recall it, it is a week ago since this was debated.

I do not think that we should. if there an' to he pract1cinµ: denturists, then I do not think that we should incorporate a r,randfnther clause, because somebody hns been practicing or making false teeth for so many odd years, that he automatically oualifies under a new scheme which would give professional recognition and obviously professional reµ:ulation~ I think it is essential that this be recognized.

I would hope that those who are engaged in or interested in or concerned with this whole question, people who reJ?:ard themselves as denturists or who wish to practice that profession, I would hope that part of their programme does not include this automatic qualffication for a person because he has practiced during the past five, four, three, two years, ten years or whatever 647

February 21, 1973, Tape 214~ Page 2 -- apb it is. This being an aspect of health care, irrespective of how lonp a person claiJTis to have practical experience in this area, professional competence attested by examination would have to be insisted on. I do not think that that is universally true in everythin~, but in dealing with this kind of a matter and I would hope that those who are lobbytnp, there is nothing wronR with lobbyinp for recoRnition of denturists~ renlize that there can be no automatic accreditation because of any claim to past experience.

There has to be regulation as a profession, professional accreditation which would result from passin~ appropriate examinations. HR. CHEESEJffJ1.'_ ],fr. Speaker, I rln not profess to have any particular knowledr,e of either the practice of dentistry or of the operations of denturists as they apply to our province.. I have sat through former discussion in this debate and listened with considerable interest to those who do have such knowledge and have explained the pros and cons as they saw them. I am sure. to those of 11s who did not previously have this lrnowledge, that the debate has Peen enlir,htening. Now 513

February 21, 1913 Tape no. 215 Page l - MR.W I happen to represent a district, a rural district, the great District of Hermitageiand the problem in that district is not, shall we have on any permanent basis one or the other but to have anything.

Now fortunately, Mr~ Speaker, there is a clinic which is operated from time to time in Bay d'Espoir but quite obviously this will never serve the entire needs of the District of Hermitage$ The two main issues which appear to me to come out of the debate is the position of the dentists on the one hand who claim and I would assume rightly so that in order for any one to practice the making of dentures or the fitting of dentures, it would obviously require a certain amount of knowledge$ Whether or not this knowledge is held by all of those who are practicing denturists, I am not sure.

Quite obviously some board or some regulatory authority of some kind would need to be set up in order to make certain that the health and in £act the value for the performance was there in terms of the work done by the denturist. This having been assured then it is my impression,from listening to honourable members of this Housei that there is no objection or no strong objection that would appear from any side. However, I think the other side is the cost involved.

Now quite obviously there is a contentious point between the dentists and the denturists and perhaps those who are promoting or agreeing with the dentists' position and those dealing with the denturists' position. I believe that coupled with any regulatory body, obviously some sort of close watch~ if in fact this is one of the reasons for the passing of such a bill - I cannot see how regulations or laws could be built in limiting price:that obviously would be impractical.

There should be at least in my opinion some mechanism of control and perhaps supply and demand will create that controL What I would like to see, Mr. Speaker, and in particular as far as the District 649

February 21, 1973 Tape no~ 215 Page 2 of Hermitage is concerned, and I am quite sure the same thing applies to members on both sides of the House who represent rural districts, if we could have denturists practicing throughout the island and particularly if we could have them associated with hospitals, dental clinics and this type of medical facilitics~to ensure at least some reasonable standard of medical care throughout these districts.

If you required dental work to be done today and if you happened to live in the Community of Francois or Mccallum, I would venture to say that whilst the cost of having the necessary work done might be very substantial - 1 am only again listening to other honourable members who have been speaking and prices have been sort of bandied around of $100, $150, $200 as the case may be which is, by any standard, a real substantial amount of money, particularly for those people who are either unemployed or enjoy only a marginal living.

Now if you add to this the cost of having to leave Francois or Mccallum or any of these places, the more isolated communities throughout the entire province. then I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the cost would be at least a third as much again as the work required. So what I would like to see and if it is possible for the Department of Health, having the honourable Dr. Rowe look at this particular bill - it would appear that the amendment will pass and I would hope that then serious consideration might be given if denturist practices are in fact brought in in Newfoundland, to give S 5

i) February 21, 1973 Tape No. 216 NM - l some serious consideration to trying to associate it closely with the medical facilities which exist throughout the rural areas. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR~ n. HOWARD: I just want to say a few brief words in support of the amendment and in rising to support the amendment I believe that such legislation should be brought in to cover the denturists because, Mr. Speaker, they, the denturists, are rendering a service to the people. I might add, a much needed service, one which should not be pushed aside by a group or groups of people, I would like to add, Mr.

Speaker, that legislation should be thoroughly looked at, keeping in mind all the health aspects involved. But I am sure of one thing, that the people of Newfoundland will be happy to know that they can obtain dentures at a price which they can afford. For this reason and for many others, l will support the amendment that a select co~mittee of this honourable House be appointed to investigate all aspects of dentistry and the legalization of dentures and report back to this honourable House. MR. CROSBY: Mr.

Speaker, this is quite a controversial subject and there is no point repeating a lot of things that have been said by other people but the real problem in Newfoundland is not whether you have denturists or do not have denturists or how they are controlled or what is to happen to denturists, that is a very small part of the problem. The problem is the need for dental services, for better tooth care in Newfoundland. In my own opinion, if we had fluoridation of water supplies here in this province~ we would have far less need of dentists, denturists and everyone else involved in this problem.

It is a peculiar thing, Mr. Speaker, that in a province which has the fewest dentists per capita of any of the Canadian provinces, and very few dentists outside the urban areas, that anytime this issue 651

February 21, 1973 Tape No. 216 NM - 2 of fluoridation is raised, there is a tremendous howl and fuss about it and all of the crackpots and oddballs who get stirred up about this issue come pouring into the public print and I know that tomorrow or the next day or the day after that or in a week's time or ten days time, I will be flooded with literature telling me what a dangerous thing I am advocating in advocating fluoridation. MR. ROBERTS: It is a Communist plot. MR. CROSBY: It is a Communist plot and I will be a Communist flunky or a dangerous fluoridationist. l may be a flunky but I am not a Communist.

But, Mr. Speaker, it is a great tragedy. I believe in the Province of Newfoundland there are only I believe two communities or is it one? Two - Gander - St. Lawrence has natural fluoridation and we have here in our own House an honourable member whose teeth survived the experience of growing up in St. Lawrence. He never goes to a dentist, never has a cavity, never gets a tooth pu]led, the honourable member for Placencia East, a living monument to the efficacy of fluoridationi already forty-four, forty-five years of age, prime health.

Everything was inspected in Placentia East during the election,including his teeth. 652

February 21, 1973 Tape 217 he passed the test and he lived He was brought up in St. Lawrence where they have nntura11.v floridate.d water. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). J M- 1 !ffi. CROSBIE: No, I will not mention that. So. }1-r.

Speaker, it would be a great thinp: if the municirrnlities in Newfoun<lland thnt have proper water systems. community water systems,would enter into iust the small expense that is involved in floridating the water supplies in those communities because the effect of that in the next twenty years and the need for dental care of the children who are living and growinf! up in those communities now would be absolutely tremendous. That is something that I do not think this House should overlook.

I think it has alwavs heen the policy, it was a policy of the past r,overnment and it is a policy of th:i.s one .as far as I know, that the Provincial Government will not imposed flori<lntion on nny communitv that has a municipal water supply.but certainly it is recommended. I believe that financial assistance would probably be available if it were needed to institute floridation and to florid.ate the water supplies of areas. I thought that Corner Brook wns going to - Is Corner Hrook floridatecl too? AN HON. HtMBER: Yes. -----·---- MR. CROSBTE: The City of Corner Brook is floridating its water supplies.

Gander and as I said ,St. Lawrence. It is time for St. John I s to <lo it. There was a vote in the city council when I was on the city council in 1966 on which three of the councillors voted for, three against and the mayor voted against it on the principle that when there was a tie vote the presiding chairman alwnys votes against a change. That principle has gone by the boards in recent weeks but it was the principle when the floridation matter was discussed in St. John's City Council. I know that Councillor Wyatt was a great advocate of floridation.

In that particular debate she came down to the city council chamber to support S53

February 21, 1973 Tape 217 floridation. I think it is time now for the City of St, John 1 s to decide to floridate our water supplies. JM - 2 So the real problem, and whatever we do with denturists or dentists is not getting to the root of it or not getting to the bottom of it. It is really only on the top of it. It is not even p,etting to the canal. We are only touchinr the top. How is the hon. p:ent.lemnn? MR. NEARY: I still have my own teeth. MR. CROSBIE: The hon. gentleman for Eell Island still has his own teeth.. He does not know how much longer that he will have them.

AH depends on how he conducts himself in thP House this year. As we sow in Nova Scotia~thev had a little flurry there a week or two ago and of course that is not our practise here. But anyway to conclude, and it may take me some time to conclude now that I have gotten started because it took me some time to start, Mr. Sneaker. To conclude,it is a great pity floridation is not something more widPsnread. Tn the menntime, Mr. Speaker. I am, as I know most members of the House nre VBry r-1nd to welcome the Premier back again from his trip to Toronto yesterdfly.

We know that he is in rnre form as he was up at 5:00 A.M. this mornin~ to catch the plnne and he is about to deal with the nub of the matter when the hon. 1-';Cntleman opposite proceeds in n fe>w minutt•s time with his resolution. I think that the amendment which T believe is to establish a select committee to report hack to the House is a proper wav of dealinr: with this and I hooc that select committee will seriouslv consider the issues and brim• ns b.'.lck a report we can all agree on and perhaps enact legislation, if not in this session then in the next session. 1'!._R. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker~ if nobody else on the other side winh to spenk on the amendment perhnps 1 could corne out and take another chop at it. I was once told by 1 think it was the hon. Hr. Curtis, Mr. Leslie Curtis, the Attorney C:eneral for many years, that there were two subjects

February 21, 1973 Tane 217 JH - 3 that were calculated to enr,agc the interest of nlmost anv member of the House and almost every member of the House and if legislation came before the House on either of these matters you could count on overvhody spenking. Those were the Alcoholic Lfouors Act or its vnri.ous manifestations and the Highway Traffic. Act ,rncl its various mm1ifestntions. I think it is now obvious that to that duo there wi 11 hnve to ht' added a third suhject giving us a trinitv. holv or otherwise. nf t'ic dentists or the denturists problem.

I cannot remember ouitP :ts r.11.my members having spoken in a debate on a resolution. I mnv ndd wt• ;HP only speakinp; on the amendment so for. Mr, Spe,1ker. We stf I l have the debate. Tam sorry? ~i HON. J%~~B,Ji: We uill have to ~o all over this again now will ·:c? t~_._ ROBE~T,S_:_ Hell. it was the hon. p.entlPJ-r,;m's co11ear.ue~ who quite properly and verv well decided but I suggest we wi11 prohablv finish in time this afternoon to have a few words on the next motion,from my colleague, the r-entleman from Bell Island. Jle has a few words he wants to say. I douht if that debate will conclude this afternoon.

We may he trented to a replav of that next Wf'ei·. Mr. Speaker, I do not propose to vote for the nmen<lment. Tf the amendment carrie:4 I shall vote for the resolution ns amtccndr•d hut do not propose to vote for the amendment. To nP. Sir. the RP'!endr'lPnt moved by the Minister of Health is a derrogation of his resnonslbilitv. It is an attempt not to provide leadership. Now. Sir. let l'le look at the amendment or let me refer to the amendment and to the resolntinn. The resolution, Hr.

Sneaker~ and shall I say this hns not been stresserl by 2entlemen on the other side, whether it has been done deliberately or not I leave to others to judge, flut it has not been stressed. The only effect of this resolution. Nr. Srieakt>r, would be to dir0ct the r.overnment to bring in le~islation to allow denturists to nractice in this province. Tt would not 655

February 21. 1973 Tape 218 PK - l would not require a grandfather clause. I quite agree with the gentleman for St. Haryts and with the Minister of Highway's and the other honourable members who said that we should not have a grandfather clause in this legislation. I quite agree with that. There has been no suggestion of that.

All the legislation would do is recognize the principle that there exists in this province a class of dental health workers called denturists or dental technologist or whatever one wishes, The government in drafting the legislation would he required to set forth the standards~ Whether it be a course at the Trade School or whether it be an examination or whether it be any type of means of measuring those standards or means of i.nculcating them, the government will be required to set it forth.

There has been no suggestion, no suggestion at all that if this resolution were passed the denturists would be able to practice. Legislation would still have to be brought in. All that the resolution does is put off once again the question of whether or not we should have in this province a new category of dental health workers. It puts it off, it puts it in the hands of a select committee. Now that is not a had thing. Mr. Speaker, select committees can be very useful.

I hope that all the honourable gentlemen who vote for this select committee, as I believe they will, ju<lging from their speeches, I hope they will also vote for another select committee because select committees are a good thing. I think that if we are going to investigate denturists we should be willing to take another bite out of another rather unsavoury object. My colleague for Bell Island will he exposing some of its details. The matter,one may say,should be referred to a select committee, a good thing. The matter has been studied to death in other provinces. It is not as if we are in a new area.

It is not as if we are being asked to pioneer or to do something radical or different. Five other Canadian provinces have studied this, some of them have select committees. I know 656

February 21. 1971 tape 218 PK - 2 Nova Scotia had, t do not know if they call it a select committee, but a committee of their House who sat for a year. OntarJo. hardly a peanut province, hardly a bannana republic. Ontario have come to the conclusion there should hen category of dental health workers over and above dentists. Rut here in Newfoundland we are going to study it, as if we had some special expertees or we had some unique prohlems. Our problems nre not unique, Sir, they are the same as elsewhere in Canada except that they are worse and that we have feuer dentists per capita.

So I was disappointed in the }finister of Health. Tf he were to leadership on this, he would have supported this resolution and not move the amendment. He would have said. let the giwernment accept this principle, we shall now sit down to work,tn try and work out the standards. But as it now stands the government are not taking the stand. They are not saying that they are against it. They are merely saying they are not for it. And they are sayinp,, let it be stud.led. Nova ~cotL:i has hrought in lef(:isln.tion "An Act Providing For the Licencing Of Denturists." It doeA not set the "'tnndn.r<l.

That has to be worked out. AN HON. Mf14RfP: No regulations. MR. ROBERTS: f:o. I just f inishinr, sayi.ng, no regulations. No regulations. Agreed. But allowing the principle,and all this resolution that I move, Mr. Speaker, all it does is set forth the principle and it adds some subsidary principles that the legislation set forth the professional standard to be attained and maintained by any persons practicin~ as a denturist. How could one object to that? It would be criminal if such standards were not set forth in legislation.

As the honourahle the minister has just said; provide for a public board to supervise them. Hardly a new idea, Hr. Speaker. There must be twenty professional groups in this province governed by such boards in one form or another, all the way from the oldest of them, the Law Society fi5'7

February 21, 1973 Tape 218 PK - 3 The two, I suppose, newest are the beauticians and the hairdressers. I suppose that is the most recent of these professional or quasi-professional groups. Then finally, the principle of denturists being allowed to practice on their own and not under the direct supervision of dentists. AN HON. MEJIBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Well then the honourable gentleman could have moved an amendrr:ent to drop that "Be It Further Resolved;, clause.

Instead of an amendment to remove, to end any possibil:i.ty of any action in the foreseable future tecause a select com~ittee if it is appointed will meet at least for this session. DR. ROWE: How can we be sure who is do:i.np the practicing until we have the qualifications - HR~ ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, that is a good question, the dentur:tsts have not come into the open. I may add, I have had the only guy, I had Mr. Skakum came to see me one day. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: No. But he did come to see me long before I brought this up, at the time of the raids.

I had a telephone call from him today which was two seconds long. I now have a note of a conversation he had with one of my assistance and staff people a few minutes ago, and his wife,a very charming lady~has given me some papers. But I have no brief for the denturists. I nm not saying that they should be allowed to practice unless they can prove themselves~ Indeed I am specifically saying in this resolution, Mr. Speaker, that there must be standards. and set hy the government.

If the minister wishes to withdraw the amendment, I will glady give consent to it. ! think his purpose, if it is as he just said, can be achieved by other means must more expeditiously. Let us legalize these people. Let us legalize the principle then we will say what standards must he maintained and what standards must be achieved, then we will have examinations and we will see S58

February 21, 1973 Tape 218 PK - 4 who can pass them~ But as it now stands, Mr~ Speaker. if this amendment is accepted there will be no possibility of a denturist practicing in this province, I should say for at least one year,by the time a select committee is appointed, meets, considers evidence, brings in a report, it goes throuph the process of going to the government. The report will come to the House, will come to the government, legislation etc. etc. etc, So I am against the amendment for that reason, I do not think it is a positive step. I think it is a retrograde step. It ducks the :i.ssue.

I think the question has been studied across Canada,studied sufficiently and the weight of evidence 1 Mr. Speaker. If five provinces,with far more than half of the people of Canada in them, Alberta, British Columbia, Manitoba, Ontario and Nova Scotia, if five provinces with far more than half of the people of Canada in them have seen fit to recognize this category of dental health-care people, then why should we not? Are we going to come up with a new principle here? Is there something unique in Newfoundland that requires us to have or not to have? Our history medically, Hr.

Speaker, our history medically has been to allow people with lesser qualification flecause often we have no choice, AN HON. MD.-IBf:R '. Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: I have no argument - I do not know why the minister keeps dragging it in. I do not know vho they are. 1t does not matter. AN HON. MHffiI'.f!: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS· Pne accepts a principle. Then one says to them, let them come forward. If this resolution were passed and legislation vere brought in,then it would be up to any individual who wishes to practice. Now they cannot come forth because the dentists will send the police on them.

This is the reason I am given, he it correct or not I cannot say, hut the reason I am given. Mr. Skakum comes to me second hand as I have said and says that the reason the denturists will not divulge their names is for G59

February 21, 1973 Tape 218 PK - 5 fear of reprisals by the R.C.M. Police. On the evidence~ Mr. Speaker, they have a reason for thnt fear. There have been raids. The dentists in their statement yesterday referred to raids. So it is a reasonable fear,because they are doing an illegal act. They certainly are. There is no doubt at all. So I do not blame them for not corning forward. I would not come forward~if I were a dentur:l.st,and say I am doing something illegal and then know the "Mounted Police would swoop in on me; and a dentist there like an avenrinr, angel.

I would he dragged into the courts~ fined or whatever the penalities the courts would assume. Also, because some of the denturists are working for dentists now as a fonn of indentured labour, and I do not mean that as a pun_ This amendment, Mr. Speaker, does not represent a step forward, it is a step back. I think this Jlour;e hns enough evidence hefore it now 660

February 21. 1q73, Tape 219, Pa~e 1 -- apb now, Sir, to decide in principle whether we should allow this catep:ory~ this is all this Resolution does. Indeed, it does not even do that, it merely records the opinion of the Bouse and directs the governrwnt to bring in some legislation. If we adopt the amendment all we end un with is another select committee, n good thinr,, a useful thinr. Twill be interested in seeinp: if the 12overnrnent 1 ike the idea of select committees. We will find that out a little later this afternoon, ~cc will find it out. It will be most interest:inr .• we will see how consistent they are.

Another select committee, not into a new sub_iect into one that has been exhaustively stud led and on which nrovj_nces. most recently Nova Scotia, within tlw pnst months :rnrl ye«r have recorded a verdict essentin.lly the same as the one I am nuttinr: for,.;ard new, so I intend to ,,ote against the ";.esolution. Pr~ Speaker, I want to say u few words on the dehatc in ~eneral. I can speak either to close the dehate after the vote on the amendment is put. As I understand the rules, 1 lrnve the right to speak to close the de!'nte on the motion itself.

If other honouraf'le gentlereen wish to speak following, indeed, there may be other llonournble p.cntlenen who wish to speal-" in the debate on the amendment. The minister is not eligible to speak he has spoken, but I for one would gladly consent i.f there is more he \rishes to say on the amendment or,for that matter. on the main motion itself. I am sure my colleagues would agree with rne on that. I have spoken only at this stage to the amendment.

There arc a number of other points I want to make, I can make them either now or later. !-faybe I should make them now and if there is nothing more to he said I will not need to speak again and we can pass on to other business. ~~_SJ_E.A~_IP~: The honourable member may continue. HR ROBERTS: Well, thank you, Hr. Spe.a1·.e.r, I shall and then if there are - I still have the r:i.r,ht to close the debate later if I wish as I understand the rules. Thnt is not so. S61

February 21, 1973, Tape 219, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: Why not? When I am speaking on the amendment, Hr. Speaker, does not the mover of a motion have the right to close the debate on it? MR. SPEAKER: There are certain points I want to make about the amendment at the time of putting the amendment. MR. ROBERTS: That is fine, because I am speaking on the amendment now but I have only the right of any ordinary member to speak on the amendment, then I sit down and eventually we come to a vote and the amendment is disposed of one way or another - accepted or rejected whatever the Committee wishes.

Then we go on the debate on the main wotion againias amended or not amended. Do I have the right to close that debate, Sir? MR. SPEAKER: In this procedure you are correct in a sense, but I want to withhold any ruling on the amendment until the time ••. MR. ROBERTS: I will speak then with the understanding that in the debate on the main motion I have the right under the rules of the House (not anything new) the same as if an honourable gentleman opposite should move a motion, he has the right to close the debate on that motion.

Your Honour inevitably says; "If the honourable member speaks now he closes.n That is the end of the debate,it is standard procedure in this House and in all others. HR. tLN.ROWE: Sure it is. AN HON. MEMBER: Are you speaking on the amendment now? HR. ROBERTS: Yes, I am speaking on the amendment now, but let me deal with some of the other points that honourable gentlemen have made, speaking to the amendment. I agree with the honourable rentleman from St. Hary 1 s about no grandfather clause.

It was a point well made and indeed it would be one that should be watched for very carefully in all legislation of this sort. We have had many groups in Newfoundland that have become incorporated under the terms of statutes of one sort or another and almost inevitably there have been grandfather clauses tucked in and well, let 662

February 21, 1q73, Tape 219, Page 3 -- apb l"'C! say simply without regard to the past that T do not think it should be done again. The honourable gentleman from St. John 1 s West and fluoridation - I agree v:holeheurtedly. I do not know if the government should require fluoridation. One can make an argument against it, :it has never convinced me. The Coverrunent do not require public hcnlth measures in the sense of imposing them on the citizens, other than :in canes of contagious diseases, venereal diseases. tuberculosis, cholern nnd that sort of thing.

The Minister of Health has the legal power. if a person will not ,?:et treatment to make him take treatment,using the police if necessary. One is not required to get immunization shots aµuinst diphtheria, whooping cough - they are not reouired. If a parent decirlrs not to take her child or his child to a doctor, then' is no way the la1,1 requires them to. Maybe if fluoridation is i.n that category~ He are now at the stap.e in Newfoundland where the govenrrnent will help financially an ongoin)'.Z policy j,n the Health Department. It is unfortunate that more municipalities have not taken advantage of it.

The thing must be done through municipalities because, of course, the water systems are municipal. The fip:ure I remember is something like sixty or sixty-five percent of the people in Newfoundland now get their water fron municipal water systems, so obviously, fluoridation applied that way would be a very good thing for our dental health. It is an idea that is cominf!, Fr. Speaker, and before too much longer, five, ten, twenty years, I do not know, but all across Canada we will have fluoridated water supplies. The weight of expert opinion I think is not unanimous, the gentleman from St.

John's West has predicted that a flood of letters will descend upon his head accusing him of being a "Communist Flunkie, 11 I think were his words. I have had an occasional one come :i.n accusing me of a plot to make people's minds soft by feedin; them the poison of fluoridation. The honourable gentleman

February 21, 1973~ Tape 219, PAge 4 -- apb is familiar with the arguments, if that can be called an argument, Nonetheless ue should have fluoridation. That however does not take away from the mntter under dispute now. Fluoridating water supplies will not help anybody 1 as I understand it.other than younv children who are p-rowing their second teeth~ When does one get one's second teeth? At the age of six? Eight? Ten? Seven or cir;ht. Once one is sixteen or eighteen and one's edentation is comrdete, as complete as nature is goinr to mah! it, it is too late.

Then one bas what one haB and one is stuck with it or not stuck with it. but that :is it. It will not help nnyhody over that flJZf' and I he.lieve fluoridation is accumulative - you have to start with younµ children and they work through.

If that is not an argument, the honourable gentleman putting forth the need for fluoridation is surely not an argument against it in any wav. havinr; another category of dental worker in this province. i. number of honourable gentlemen opposite have snoken with eJoouence ahout the plip.ht of dentists in the rural areas,and who have said that, and it is true, that dentists in rural areas rely upon the mal<inp_ of dentures for a considerable part of their income at present. They have then taken that fact and twisted it beyond any distortion to support the argument that somehow this means we should protect dentists.

Well, ?-!r. Speah;r, dentists are highly skilled and highly trained and highly motivated people. They should be encouraged to do what they are best qualified to do and what nobody else cnn do. If anybody else, another caterory of health worker,of dental henlth worker can do some of the work now being done by dentists and do it Just as well, then surely, we should encourage the use of the less skilled, less highly trained people to do the work such as dentures.

That is the way to help. as the honourable gentleman from Hermitap,e said, not tP have n dentist making dentures, that is the same as having a highly trained heart surgeon cuttinr

February 21, 1973, Tave 219, Page 5 -- apb out hangnails. One uses the man for what he is tra:i.ned for, the highest level of training he has achieve<l, then one gets the na:rafficdicals the paradentals or whntever the phrase is to do the work for which they are trained. That is the whole point in the trend of modern med:icine. We could go on about nurse practitioners and all of those thinr-s the principle is sound. All the ar~uments by honourable gentlemen opposite missed the point completely~ they missed it completely.

To say that because dentists now rely upon dentures, or the income frorn dentures for part of their income and that therefore we should not, must not allow denturists tc practice and thus take away that income is completely to go against what we should De doing in dental health practice in this province. I would by far rather see us go the other way, Let us suhsidize the dentists.

Let us use puhlic funds or additional public funds, because they are now subsidized to an extent, let us use rrnhli.c funds to suhsidize ther:1 further and let them have their full time to do the work which only the dentists c.an do, down in HcCallun or down in the other communities in Hermitage District. That is what they should he doing. not doing work that less skilled people can do. The argument, Hr. Sneaker, that the honourable gentleman from Placentia Hes,t put forth, the. 'fAinister Designate of Mines and F:ner;?v and

February 21, 1973 Tape no. 220 Page l - Mm, Mr. Roberts. the Minister of Justice put it forth with his usual sincere eloquence and a number of other gentleman did. That argument if anything is an argument in favour of this resolution and aiuinst the amendment. It is an argument in favour of using the de.nturists for what they can do and leaving the dentistry for the work that only dentists can do.

If the Minister of Health does not deal with that principle, I shall be sorely confounded because the whole basis of modern health, as I understand it, is to use the auxiliary people where they can be used, to allow nurses to do many of the functions which doctors traditionally have done. It is the only way we can use our scarce dental manpower. If there are going to be subsidies, Mr. Speaker~ let them come from the public first, from the treasury, from all the people and not just from the people who pay for dentures. The hon. gentleman from Trinity North pointed out - lt ,is in the newspapers, Dr.

Bowden, a spokesman for the dentists said so yesterday, that the price of dentures have come down or was going to come down. When one reads the dental statement, I will come back to it. It has not come down. It is not a very effective thing. I fear. it may be a cheap, second­ class "P.R. 11 gesture because there are no guarantees or no nothings built in. I will come back to it. We have no guarantee that at the moment this matter is now disposed of, the dentists will not just jack up their prices or these store-front clinics will not close.

The situation we now have in rural areas is that people are being required to subsidize the dentists by paying these high prices for dentures. If the dentists need that :income to continue, then 1:et the state supply it and let the state in return say.' 1 Flne 1 we will expand the children's dental care service." The dentists have recommended it. 6GG

February 21, 1973 Tape no~ 220 Page 2 Mr. Roberts. The officials in the Department of Health are enthusiast1.c about it, I am sure the minister is. The arguments, Mr. Speaker, are crazy~ They are all t.1rong. The facts, Sir, are correct, The arguments are twisted and distorted beyond safe. The arguments do not support and do not prove the points that they are being led to support and led to produce. I am all for subsidizing dentists. I think one of the great steps forward that could be taken is that if the Minister of Health, when he brings in his estimates, has a provision for mobile dental clinics.

F:n a measure of this sort I would be the first to say, Hosanna! I never managed to get it done. The minister may or may not succeed. Tilere are immense practical difficulties, immense practical difficulties. If he succeeds, more power to him. But let the dentists do what they are supposed to do and let us use public funds for it. Why not7 We use public funds for medical care. We use public funds for hospital care. We use public funds for school health nurses, public health nurses. Why should we not use more money for dentists? Mr.

Speaker, let me just say one thing in closing, at least closing for this portion of the debate. The dentists yesterday issued a statement. It has been extensively and,as far as I know, accurately reported in the press, both the radio and television and the newspapers. It is the most positive thing I have seen from the Dental Association in a number of years. I take it that the minister is agreeing with me. Yes, the minister has read it, well so he should. I find it most amusing that the dentists suddenly after all these years discovered some concern, after the House gets at it, after members on both sides begin

February 21, 1973 Tape no. 220 Page 3 going into the problem. We will let the people of NewfoundJ.a:nd judge that for themselves~ The thing that concerns me and I would ask the minister, at some point 1 to deal with th.is. Tne dentists say; (I am reading from page three of their statement, firwl r1aragraph on that page) "In order to immediately provide an expanded denture service at a reduced cost, the Newfoundland Dental Association has approved the establishment of ,1 store-front type, low-cost denture clinic 1 at first in St. John 1 s nnd Corner Brook and later in other centres.

The association is also investigating the feasibility of delivering low-cost denture services, via one or more mobile clinics to isolated, rural areas.JI That is a good thought. It goes on in the next page; "these clinics will provide upper and lower standard dentures at a fee of from $60 to $70 each as opposed to the $100 which apparentlv is the minimum charge that dentists charged under the N.D.A. fee schedules. 11 Mr. Speaker. I would 1 lke to know (the dentists very careful lv do not say this) who is to operate these?

Are dentists to volunteer to give up their time to go down to the store-front clinics and make them? Are they going to be dental technicians'! Who is going to operate them? Who is going to pay for them? Who will make any profits if there are profits'! What guarantee have we that these will last'f What guarantee have we that we will not in six months be faced with the situation where we are right back where we started, the store-front clinics closed?

I find it very interesting that this profession - I have nothing against the dentists and in fact up until recently I have had good relations with them and I hope to have it again. But after years of this sort of treatment, they suddenly find the conscience, suddenly they open low- cost store-front type denture clinics. Suddenly, they offered subsidization by the dental profession. (I am quoting on page four now) Now who are they trying to kid? Who are they trying to kid? What are they up to?

February 21, 1973 Tape no. 220 Page 4 Mr. Roberts. Just what is this store-front clinic? Is it for real? Is it just something to take the heat off? The hon. gentleman from Bonavista South has put the heat on and properly so. He is c~ncerned with this problem and other honourable members are, because a motion has come before the Chamber and been debated~ Who are they trying to kid? Is this a genuine effort? I hope it is. Maybe it is. It is certainly a conversion worthy of Saul on the road up to Damascus, seeing the blinding light and becoming Paul. AN HON. !!EMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

ROBERTS: No, Saul of Tarsus, he was going to Damascus. The only Saul I knOW' of who was converted was Saul of Tarsus. The honourable gentleman has been through some blinding conversions himself. MR~ ROWE: Depending on how the wind is blowing. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, yes, unfortunately you are right. The dentists of this province have raised some serious questions about themselves by this action. If this is done now, why was it not done last year or the year before? Is it being done only because there is some public pressure on them now,because people are beginning to ask questions?

How do we know that this is the minimum they can get away with it? How do we we know that denturists would not do less? Then the Minister of Fisheri~n says that we cannot set prices. Why not? I think we probably have the constitutional power to do it in this House. We set fish prices in this province. Why can we not set the price of dentures? The government of this province effectively set the price of medical services by the fee

schedule and the agreement to pay. AN HON. MEMBER: Who set the fish prices? MR. •ROBERTS: Well the Tory Party was going to set them for fresh fisht but the Government of Canada, through the Salt Fish Corporation, set them for salt fish. The honourable gentleman has forgotten the promise to subsidize? We will be reminding him. 669

February 21, 1973 Tape no. 220 Page 5 AN HON. MEMBER: They give a minimum - MR. ROBERTS: Well that is the same as setting a price. is it not? The N.D~A. to use the word~ are using minimums~ setting minimuws. This offer is hardly a hande.some one. It is a step forward~ The dentists were forced into it. ! wonder how genuine they are. I think probably the dentists feel that some action had to be taken. I think perhaps they should explain it. I hold no brief for the denturists at all, none at all.

If the minister sets standards and the denturists canno! meet them, then they fall by the wayside with never a word from me. The standards would have to be the reasonable Canadian standards. I do not want to see this province become the happy hunting ground for everv misfit - I have no idea if the present people are qualified or not - I do not want to see this province become a place for, if you cannot hack it in Ontario or Nova Scotia; vou come to practice denturism or to practice medicine or to practice anything. The Dental Association, it is not quite as generous.

The King of Trovs Priam, was told to be aware of Greeks bearing gifts. He did not. He was not aware of them and they killed him and Troy was destroyed. Troy stayed destroyed and was lost for 800, 900, 1,000 or 2,000 years. Is this a Trojan Horse, this a.tore-front clinic problem7 W'hat guarantee have we? What guarantee have we that they will even be open? The dentists in Ontario are backing off pretty quickly. Thev were forced into this by the Government of Ontario. I believe the legislation in Ontario has a requirement written in it that the government control those prices or influence them.

Here all we have is a voluntary plan. I think the dentists owe us more of an explanation. The minister may have some information that I do not have. I hope so. I do not put my remarks forward to attack or anger the dentists. What I am interested in is this offer. lt is passing strange that it has come up now - passing strange. I do not think it is adequate. In any event even if it is adequate what 570

February 21, 1973 Tape no. 220 Page 6 Mr~ Roberts guarantee do we have that it will last? Why should the dentists subsidize clinics all of a sudden? Are the lawyers going to subsidize - lawyers donate their services free, under legal- aid ,:,r have. Shortly there will be a legal-aid programme. It will be get rich quick for all the lawyers. It is a good thing, more money for them. The lawyers donate their services under the existing legal·aid scheme, the one administered by the gentleman from Placentia East. Even that, the government make a subsidy to cover the cost of the office and the typewriters - I think it is $25,000 a year now. Are the government going to be asked to do anything to 671

February 21, 1973 Tape 221 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: put it in here: It is an offer that would - the whole offer by the Dental Association 1 it comes in suspicious circumstances and when one looks into it, it is not quite as concrete or definite as the dentists would have one believe, judging frcm their public statements. Mr. Speaker, I have gone on it a little longer maybe than I intended to. I think I have dealt with the points brought up on the other side.

If we proceed immediately to the nre~ndment and as Your Honour rules upon it, and we vote upon it, I propose to have nothing further to say in the nain debate unless some other honourable gentleman makes some points that I think should be dealt with, in which case I shall try to deal with them. I do think the debate has been a useful one. I do hope the minister will reconsider this matter and will agree to accept in principle the idea that we can have a category of dental health workers called denturists. Voting for the resolution, Mr.

Speaker, without the amendment, will not legalize any person noY practicing in this provinceB All it will do is require the government to bring in legislation to set the standards by which people can get into it.

All it will do is accept in principle the idea of a category of dental health workers called denturists~ Voting for the amendment, as I shall not, voting for the amendment will postpone the question, it will require further study of it, further study of the matter which has already been studied exhaustively in other provinces, a matter which other provinces after studying it have come to the conclusion that there should be the same category of denturists which is suggested in the main motion. So I shall oppose the amendment, Hr. Speaker, and I hope it does not pass. I believe it should not pass.

I believe it is a step back~ If it does pass, I shall vote for the resolution as amended, not happily but as liy far the better choice than just ignoring it, Which after all is what the government have

February 21, 1973 Tape No. 221 NM - 2 done until the matter was raised here on Wednesday last. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Well first I would like to say that realizing honourable members sometimes do not have the opportunity to present amendments to either me or the table, before being presented, I would request in the future 1 if it is at all possible, that such amendments be presented either to myself or to the Clerk so that we could take a look at the amendment from a procedure viewpoint. This amendment in particular has caused quite a bit of concern from a procedure viewpoint and I am having in essence to make a ruling on itt as such. I will accept this, under Standing Order 36,

Section (B), in which I have to accept the amendment, deleting the words following 11be it further resolved" and inserting the amendment "that a select committe of this hon. House be appointed to enquire into and hear evidence on all matters touching upon the work of dental technologists sometimes referred to as denturists and to enquire into all matters pertaining to the practice of dental technology and to report to this House. 11 From Beauchesne,

Section 201, page 168. I will now put the amendment as such. Those in favour of the amendment ''aye 11 , those against the amendment 11nay 11 , in my opnion the 11 aye 1 s 0 have it. Now before any of the honourable members speak, I would like to refer to

section 201 which says, "the object of an amendment may be to reflect such an alteration in a question as would obtain the support of those who, without such alteration, must either go against it or abstain from voting thereon or to present to the House an alternative proposition either wholly or partially opposed to the original question~ This question may be effected by moving to omit all the words of the question after the first word 'that' and to substitute in their place other words of a different import. 673

February 21, 1973 Tape No. 221 NM - 3 In that case, the debate that follows is not restricted to the amendment but includes the motives of the amendment and of the motion, both matters being under the consideration of the House as alternative propositions. 11 MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that the resolution as amended be adopted. MR. ROBERTS: Mr~ Speakerj I am not trying to put him on the spot. DR. ROWE: This is exactly where we read you now. You have taken the amendment and you have done something with it. Now we are voting on the resolution as amended.

I would like to see exactly what I am going to vote on before I speak on it. I am not quite sure where this now fits into the resolution. I want to be clear in my mind before I say what we are - !!R. SPEAKER: What the honourable member is voting on now is exactly what he has proposed himself because this section (201) of Beauchesne negates everything else. So there is no debate on the main resolution. I have put the resolution as such but what the honourable member is voting on is his previous own amendment.

It is moved and seconded that the resolution as amended be adopted, those in favour naye," those against qnay • " carried. Motion (6). MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am glad the honourable Premier is back in his seat this afternoon so that he may hear what I have to say in introducing this resolution. As the whole world knows now, via press and radio and the honourable Premier was up addressing the Albany Club and I might say, just by way of information for honourable members Of the House, that the gentleman I will be referring to a number of times in introducing this resolution this afternoon, one Mr.

George McLean is an active member of the Albany Club as well as the province 1 s fiscal

February 21, 1973 Tape No. 221 NM - 4 MR. NEA..~Y: agents, Burns Brothers and Denton. V.r. Speaker, before I get into the main part of my remarks, I would like to draw the attention of the honourable members of the House to the brochure that is passed out to vistors to the gallery. I am not quite sure, Mr. Speaker, whether this brochure has been prepared by ::u.,cml, one of George NcLeun 's subsidiaries or not.

I would like to point out to honourable members, Sir, that the picture of Confederation Building is reversed, I did not know this 1 I was studying the brochure. rather carefully the other day and I felt there was something wrong with the picture of Confederation Building, so I asked my honourable colleague here from Bonavista North, who is a draftsman and n surveyor, if he would tell me whnt is wrong with the picture and he told n:e that the C0ntederntion Building is just the reverse of the way it should he in the photcgraph.

So, as I say 1 I am not sure if NACOM prepared that brochure or not, but if they did, Hr. Speaker, and the honourable Speaker is noddinp: in the negative, so I take the honourable Speaker's word that tht:v did not prepare this. Now, Hr. SpeakC;r, most of us hnvc read the book or seen the movie 11The Carpetbaggers, n the story of the hoard of pan1sit1cal yankee peddlers and con men who descended upon the hapless Southern States immediately on the heels of their defeat in the American Civil War.

Well, Sir, less than a year ago, I suppose a revolution of sort took place in this province and on its heels we have the same phenomenal, Sir, the influxing of carpetbaggers all set to exploi.t the potential here in our province. Among the moat notorious 1 ~r. Speaker, and the masc blatant, and the most obvious of these seems or appears to be the local subsidiary of the Toronto,-based George McLean Public Relations Firm, NACOM. Incidentally, Sir, I checked with the Registry of Companies nnd I find that NACOM is not registered in this province and I have been told, Sir,

February 20, 1973 Tape No, 22.1 NM - 5 IBL NEARY: that NACOH derives its name from a condensation of Nutbeem and Company. Undoubtedly, Sir - and everybody knows who Mr. Nutbeem is - undoubtedly, Sir, as a tribute to the honourable the Premier and his in-laws but I hope that if this is so, and the Premier will be able to confirm or deny that this afternoon, I hope that if it is so, Sir, that there will not be any conflict of interest involved here. I have also heard that NACOM stands for North American Corramunications but I have been unable to establish this fact, Sir, because the company is not. registered.

Obviously the company has something to hide or it would be registered. I am quite sure. "7 .. 0 0

February 21, 1973 'fUfiP 222 rn-1 Now. t1r. Sneaker, since the 'McLean Orr,Anization anricars to he the most notorious nf the cnrnett>n?:pirnz outfits, pre.vinp;: :mon our economv, usinr it;=; r1ose connectton vi.th thP Torv nartv to hludgeon husines.s out of 0 overnment dcnnrtments, rmt of industr" denendinp upon government i:n.nmort and evf>n nut of 1ocal advertisprs to rmnrmrt its third rate nubii.cat:ions invoiced :1t flrst rate r,ric0s, 1 therefore. Si.r, felt that it was necessary to nurN,sr a resn1ut!on to clenr tP this mRtter once and for nil.

Sir, I would like tn show honnnrni,Jf" memhers of thts l1n11sP the kind of third rate pu}dicntion of whi,h T sneak. llern is n tourist hook.let nutili.shed hv 1'1r. hfcLerm in 1972. "Jemhers 0f the ?,ffvr>rnment h;,vt, drmie<l 0nv connection vlth th:ts hnoklet, ?ir. The honourable Minister of Finance denied in the House when I sug~ested that he had given Mr, McLean n lett<>r ctr,proving the nublicatjon. The hnnournb1c mini.ster dcni.cd it nnd ner1wr,s .,,hen he> is srienking in thts def,nte,,T d I am sure he vi.1 l sne.1k in thi.s debate, Nr.

Speaker, old honest John hirm:;elf vi11 ;.,z,nt tn ret un nnd defend the government's Posltion on this, In arturt1 fact, ~ir, he r1fd give ''r. McLean n letter which Hr. McLean hrnught alonp: this nrnvince, waved it under the noses of notentin] advertisers and got a lot of the advertisinr, that is :i.n this booklet, Sir, thrnufh n letter r:ivPn to him hv the f'1inister of Finance apnrovinl,; of this r,uh1 icaticsn. The inference bcd.nt;, Mr. Snenker, that the government and the n.inister were right behind this. Tt is a th1rd rate riuhlication, Sir. The cover is n P,1ossv tiaper.

The insi<le is a common,ordi.narv pnner that vou can hartllv rearl, Sir. and a message from the Premier ri~ht on the lnRide, n lovelv uicture of the Premier. He is not showing his teeth in thi_c; one. uot advertising for toothpaste, becoming an or<ler of the Co"';p:ate Ki.cl. but not in this picture, Sir. He says; 'It gives me r,reat nlensure to welcome the many thousnnds of visitors who chose this unfoue province for their holiday •.• ' 677

February 21, 1973 Tape 222 IB-2 Nice U.ttle message written no doubt about friend George. bv friend Ceor;.;C' ~ Then right on the next nage. Sir, we have a ntcture for evervhodv to see, the honournble f.l"inL;:;ter of Fconornic Develonment at the ti.me~ now the Minister of Puh] tc Works. Not n had nicture tnken nrobably twentv vears ago nov, the honourable minister still has a fair amount of hair on hLs hend. I P01.1ld sav, Sir, that :it was taken in the last election that he ran for for the Liberal Partv. That is when the rdcture was tat'.en. There it is, Sir.

No connection. v.overnment knows nothing at nll about lt. The Minister of Tour:fsn tnld us. nn, it is the McLean Enternrise. We know noth:i.np at all ahout it. But, ~ir, do vou know and do hnnounh 1 e memt>ers on that side of the House knm.•, the hon. ~ini.ster of Fisheries knows, the hon. Nintster of Finance knows that these tvo nlctures, ;Cir • ..,,ere invoiced at the rate of $500, each. $500. each. ':hc,t was the invoice that came to the Minister of Finance. Oh, 't-1 r. Snf'aker! Jt did. $500 to get that nicture put in and $5flfl to get the Mfnister nf Public Work, his picture in the nuhHcndon.

The invoice was sent in, Sir. and payment was refused hv an off:icnl of tlie Denartment of Economic Development. It wa.s n:dected, thrown out. T do not know if it was ever naid but Mr. McLean is alleged to have made the statement• "Well forget about it, we wi.11 get -it back some other way. 11 Fortunatelv. }tr. Sneaker, there was a hundred thousand copies of this hooklet published. Fortunately, eighty thousand copies found their way to Robin Hood Bay.

Under cover of darkness~ Sir, drhty thousand conies of this where taken down to Robin ilood Hny and dumned dmm in the citv dumn that ve: heard so much ahout here vesterdav from the honourable member for St. John's North. It is a good thinp:, Sir, that this was not sent out across Canada and the United States. What 6'78

February 21. 1973 Tape 222 Tf-l-J an insult to Newfoundland. A third rate publi.cation s1moortcd bv that adrdni strat1on ~1r. Sneaker, talking nhm1t the honourable member for St. Jnhn 1s North, this nrovince. Sir. in mv iTriinion cues the c0Bt-off minister n debt of {{ratitude for blowing the whistle on the Cenrge McLean s,,wdaJ. The nn1v vnv the Premier and memhers of his cnhinet c;in clenr thensf'lves nf annenrances of conflict of interest in tlds case is tn apree to set tJf'l th-J.s se1ect romm1ttee, Sir, tn i1westir::1te and renort. on the who1e matter 0f spending nuhlic monjes with this finn.

Slr, if there 1s an nutfit in NewfoundJand tndav that needs the P,,f:,N.P. tn seize its f:ooks, it is un<lonbtlv the cnrnetbaggi.ng f'.enrge ;.fcLenn. Ket,:friundlnnders who have r:otten in t01ich vith ~e from all over this r<rnv.inre, C:ir, are shocked at vh,7t is p:o1ng on hctiseen the government and "'r. \JcLean and NACmt. ~1evfoundlanders, Si.r. t::ixpavers are sh0ckcd to knov that n hundn:d nnd sixteen tl10usnnct and fi ftv ;.;ix dollars and ninetv-seven cents vas nr,id nut of th2 riublic trc:.surv in the r1erinrl enc1inr. June JOth, IG72 t" Georet' uclcn.n's r,nJ-.lic n>1nti0ns. ~Jo reason for it. >J!r.

Snenker, nthPr th"n to ndv:ince him thi:, 1nnnev sn he could set un ,1 comnnnv in Nevfrmn1!Jnnd. A h;lr2fn,ed nrtemnt, ~1 r. Speaker, for the a<lrninistrntion to nrrv ;ff ,r1ectinn ;;un,.,--,Jtm cxncnces out of provincinl funds. l11hy was this monev nnicl nut,

February 21. 1973 Tape 223 JM - 1 Mr. Speaker, when only we were told a couple of weeks prior to this by the hon. the Pr~~ier right here in this hon. House, Sir, that no c:ontract, 11no contracts,"he said,"would be given to Mr. McLean or any of his subsidiaries unless public tender was called.n Up to that time, up to the time that the Premier made that statement in this hon. House, "No worktu he said, 11 has heen done for. the government by the McLean Organization." The Minister of Finance is going out of the House now. Sir. He is v,oinp. down to see if my figures are correct. Oh, they are correct.

The hon. minister will come back and tell us that there was money advanced to Hr. McLean. MR. CROSBIE: If they are, it is the first time you have been correct. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, June 29, 1972. and I am going to quote from Hansard, Sir. We were dealing with the estimates of the Department of Fisheries. The hon. Premier will remember it and the hon. Ninister of Fisheries will probably remember it. We were getting near the end of the ministerS estimates and 1 rose in my place in this House. Sir, and I nut a very innocent question to the Minister of Fisheries. T said, "Mr.

Chairman~ before you take your seat. 1 wonder if you could inform the committee if 'McLean's Advertising, McLean's Public Relations or t-fcLean 1 s Associates or whatever they are called. are they doing nny work for the Department of Fisheries or the fish industry?" In Hansnr<l they do not say Mr. Minister, they say Mr. Cheeseman so, Hr. Speaker 1 1 hope I will be forgiven for using names. Hr, Cheeseman(minister) answered, "'There are no existing contracts in the Department of Fl sheries an<l 1 cannot see any involvement. I cannot see any involvement, 11 the minister said. "I cannot answer that one specifically.

I cannot see any connection that it would have with Burgeo but to my knowledge. no." The Minister of Fisheries says no contracts and he can foresee no involvement. Well, Sir. the Auditor General's Report to the House of Assembly for the financial year which ended Harch 31, 1972 says that sso

Februarv 21.. 1973 Tane 223 under sufltwad 1412(05) (DG) - µubHc Information Service 543.0flO. Tt does not state whether it is McLf'ans or not, 1 want the minister to tell us when he speaks i.n this deb;ite,,and the hon. Premier is sittirw there with a nrennred speech.prepared a month ago, five weeks ap;o,by Mr. McLean, and he is rearinp: to gn. He wants to 1•et un and read it. t.Je1 l. <::, r he wi 11. jw;t h,wc to wait for a few minutes until 1 m.1ke r:q case. 1 f I do not accomplish anything else in this dch.1te. Mr. Spr,nker, I wi 11 get the hon. the Premier to nakc a major speech in thifi l!ouse.

The approved estimntes for 1971-1972 made no provision for expenditure dw.rtcd to this suhhend. Since the expenditure wrrn not provided for by the legislature nor by special warrant issuet, from the Cnnsolid.,ted Revenue Fund on nr:count of.such expendit11res were i.n mv on::inion in contrnventfon of

section 3f1(3) of the R0vemw :mrl Audit Act. I hone the hon. t..fini.ster of Finance i.s l isteninf' to thnt. He was ahmvs so hepped ur, that we follow the recomr;iendntion,: laid down hy the Attdit()r General. He was nlwnvs sri sensitive .1bout it. so touchv. Sb1.0(_JO and l would suggest. Sir, that is on1,,.· fnr the vtaar ending \farch 31. 1972, Mr. Speaker. 1.Je nre nnt even into the new fiscal ye::ir yet, three months. Sir. 1 would sup,J;ent to this hnn. House that one of the first requests that the hon.

Premier hn<l after he formed the administration of this province nnd tnok over from the liberals on January 18. 1972. one of the first requests in wr,itinr- nnrl 1 would as1' the Premier,if he is going to get up and counter what I am saying this afternoon, that he oroduce anv correspondence tlrnt he may have in his pocession to back it up. On Jami.try 29. Sir, Mr. McLean got off a letter to the Premier. ~ot him off n letter asking for contracts. askin~ for work. He was desperate, he was hunrtrv. in financial trouble. Eleven davs after the Premier formed the a<lmini.stratinn, January 2R. he iR heggin~ for work.

But the Minister of Fisheries says no.we did not ~ive GSl

February 21~ 1973 Tape 223 JM - J him anything and we do not think we are goinp- to be involved. Sir. we will find out when the estimates come up this year how deeply the Minister of Fisheries got involved. Listen to this, Mr. Speaker. Just listen to this. Quoting from Hnnsard again, a verbatim report of the House of Assewblv. This is a statement by the hon. the PrF:mier. It says herct Mr, Noores. Regarding the McLean involvement. he sn id, "Certainly there 1 s nothinp in my deportment that he has been involved in.

Any oarticu1ar ,.,roien that comes up in any department that his services apply to he is eli.r;ible to bid on it as others will be.n The Prernier 1 s own words. exact words, Mr. Speaker. "There is nothing restr:i.ctive," he .sav.s, "about the individual hit1self. The re:ison whv be is not listed ns n headinr, a very large heading. the renson he is not is any more than Sanitarv Products ls not." Whatever that has to do with it, nr. Speaker. 'T mean," he st'l.Vf>, "thiR is lust no p.lnce to put a function.

The s11p-gestion that was mentioned that he was reccivinr SB ,000 a week is tot;,1 ly incnrrect," the Premier snvs. The Premier I s own words. Sir. "He is not a naicl adviser. He has no input.i- !le has no input, Hr. Speaker. he has no input. Do the hon. members of this House know the Premier says he has no input in the Premier 1 s office? Do hon. merr1h0,rs of this House know thnt the tentacles. Mr. HcLerm I s tentacles hnve reached right into this House and that the Throne Speech that was read at the commencement of this session was in lan1:e r:icasure written by Mr. McLcan 1 s outfit?

Do ministers and members of the povernment side of the House realize that, that they were sittinr there listening to a document written by Mr. McLean I s peop1 e. employees? They knew all about the Throne Speech before members of the House, before the ninisters knew ahout it. Sir. go down and look at the security book downstain1 for Sunday afternoon before the House opened, I do not remember the exact date,

Fehruriry 21. 1973 Tane 221 nnd vou wi 1] see a Vr. Fd. Coi1,1v of f-,1,:b:,:m 1 s si1::ned the secud tv honlr on Sund,1.v afternoon fnr the ci P½th f 1 oor. the same day. ~r. Sneak(~r. on which rmlin rennrt;,d thnt the Prf'miPr had snent snme time in hie: office draftinr chr snerrh. '-fr, SpeaYer, let Me riive tlH .. ' hon. rnernhers of thC' 1lous? ;i few vi.tal stntistics n.hout Mr. NcLean anr! 1 mri not tn.lkinr; about his size. MR~. ROWE(W.?,L/: Vnu would not havP time enough. "IR.

NEARY: That would tnke the rest of thP afternoon and the Premier --.·--~•* w0uld not l!C't n chance to mal:e that gre;;t speech th:it he hns tht:>ff>, prep;irert by Mr. McLean five weeks ago. t asked the Leader of the Opp0r;ition, Mr. Speaker. if he w01dd pet certain information on the McLean Organization for me from Toronto nntl the Lendt>r of the Onnosition got the information f0r me nnd J now p;iss it on to hon. mcmhers of the ilous0 to show them wh;:it tlwv nre denling with. ?v'r. Sr,e:nker. listen to this.

February 21, 1973 Tape 224 PK - l The company is in peculiar financial problemR. They do not seem to have credit anywhere. Much of their revenue comes from film contracts out of various Newfoundland departments, tourisn, highways, fisheries. ,, ' The Minister of Fisheries says, no involvement in his departnent. He ha;: set up an audio visual company NACOH Limited, htred a film editor and purchased equipment. 'Have no idea where the noney came from' our informant in Toronto says.

Hell, Sir, I ,lust told the Fouse where the money came from, in advances. given hack, given to Hr. t!cLean for the period ending June 30, 1972. Listen to this, Fr. Speaker, the company is in constant difficulty with civil service in Newfoundland. Tt is becoming a political issue on the island. I will say it is, Sir. Most of the activities of the company are now centered in Newfoundland ,where McLean has set up a permanent office. He, himself, spends most of his time in Newfoundland. Apparently a very large turnover in his staff, only one employee has heen there over one year in both offices.

The Toronto office have seven employees including himself,two accountant executives, two secretnri.es, one audio-tape man, one photographer. The Toronto office accounts are basically Canada Packers, Burns Rrnthers in Denton - Burns Brothers in Denton~ Mr. Speaker. the fiscal agents for the government and the ROM. Board of Trustees. There is a very interesting statement made in this report, Sir; !I 11 the company is constantly in difficulty with civil service. Well. Sir, that is a true statement.

I have a number of witnesses, Sir, I will not reveal their names at this moment hut I have a number of witnesses, a number of people who have given me information on McLean that are prepared to come hefore a select committee of this House and tell the members of the House and the people of Newfoundland precisely what they have to contend vith from this carpetbagger from Ontario. They are prepared to do it, Sir. They will volunteer. But they are not going to identify

February 21. 1973 Tape 224 PK - 2 themselves unless they have the protection of the House of Assembly. Officials down in the Minister of Fisheries Department, Sir~ have been badgered and browbeaten to get money, to pav the bills to 'McLean. They send in a bill one day and the next day are encamped outside the doors of the officials,waitin~ for their cheque. At one stage, Sir. I am told that the Minister of Fisheries had to intervene and kick him out of his office. ~et him off the floor.Did not want him around. UndesirahlPr-L The !-finister of Fisheries says,"no 1nvn1vement''when we asked him about Mr. McLean.

There are a numher of other people. Sir, wht.1 are not civil servants, who are independent men. honest Newfoundlander!'> who cannot stomach this. sort of goinr down, who are prepared to come before a select committee and give evidence imder oath and hrin~ documents. if necessary. to tell all about this ~fcLean mess. Sir. apart from the names of the firms mentioned our report from Toronto. nurns Brothers in Denton, and the honourahle MjniBtf'r of Finance told us a vear a!?O. almost a year ago; ''no need to change the fiscal agencies, he said. they are <loin,? a good job.

The nnes we have are doing a good job for us!' Ahout ten days later the honourahle the Premier announced that we were goin~ to chan~e our fiscal agents and then we discovered that Hr. McLean was the PR Finn engaged by Burns Brothers in Denton. Sir, the proponents of conflict of interest must be havinp. nightmares. Apart from these firms, Sir, we are told in an

article in the ''Eveninr, Telegram" ,Saturday, February 3, 1973 1 'McLeans 11 - and I am quoting, Sir. 11McLeans Empire also extends to the world of industry and business. He handles public relations for Shaheen natural resources of New York - worldwide though not in Newfoundland. Besides the Electric Perluction of Canada Limited public relations in Newfoundland McLean was hired recently to take care of public relations for National Sea Products Limited operations in the province. National Sea Products interests in Newfoundland include the operation of a fish plant in St. John•s. as well as a fleet of six (' ( l ,., ,)(J J

February 21, 1973 Tape 224 PK - 3 trawlers .t' In addition. Mr. Speaker. HcT can Public Relations looks after Labrador Linerboard Limited, a crown corporation in Stephenville and in Goose Bay.n Then also mentioned in the same

article 1 Sir, is a matter that T. referred to earlier in my remarks "The former Education Ninister John Carter claimed he was du.~ped from the cabinet for opposing political patronage." If he was. Sir, I hope he has the decency and the. honesty and the courage of his convictions to stand on the floor of this House in this debate and say whether this is so. ne said, 11 he was durnped from the cabinet for opposing political patronage 1 ° especially, Mr. Speaker. "awarding of $4000 contract to }1c:Lean for work, 11 }fr. Cnrter said, "could have been done for $5001'.

What a relevation for a former cabinet minister to make, Sir! What a reflection on this crowd of millionaires who went around this province telljng us vhat we needed was honesty in povernment. Hell, Sir, I hope the honourable former minister will be able to take his place in thts House and elaborate on that statement. The honourable memher did not deny the statement. Follow it up. I saw the honourable memher nn television. I was rather taken by surprise, Sir, taken hy surprise, Whatever you say about the honourable gentleman's politics, I think he is an honest man.

He did not have the stomach like all other Newfoundlanders., we have pretty strong stomachs in this province, Sir. but he could not take it any longer. I saw the honour ah le member on televison. I heard what he said on radio. I know, Hr. Speaker, the honourable memher is too much of a Tory to come over across the House and sit with the Liberals. I realize that, Sir, too much of a Tory. AN HON. _ _:fE1'1}?£!{_:_ 'He just does not want to. ?-"ffi. NEARY: He would rather sit over there and squirm and twist and turn. Sir. Well that is his prerogative. He can stay over there.

He can stay there, Sir, as long as he wants. He can bore from within. He can challenge 686

February 21, 1973 Tape 224 PK - 4 the Premier. MR. ROBERTS: He can bore anyway at all. MR. NEARY: He can challenge the Premier's leadership of the party. That is his prerogative. That maybe his way of hitting back, getting back. I hope he accomplishes what he sets out to do hut I want the honourable member to stand in this House and elal;,orate on that statement. That is a nretty serious matter, Hr. Speaker. The honourable Minister of Hines, Agriculture and Resources~ the present Minister of Industrial Development, he is not in his seat right now. Sir, had a hit? campaign over the issuing of licences for hunting last year. Remember it. Does everybody remember it? A hig to-do down fi 8 7

February 21, 1973. Tane 225, Pa~e l -- anh in the lobhy of Confederation Building pictures and all. a new system for issuing huntinp: licences. The government are proud of it, an improvement over what the old administration <licl. But, Sir, do you know who paid for that? The taxpayers of this province paid for it. 1-rr. McLean was hired hy that dcpartrnent to create the :i.rnage and to punp out the propaganda over ,1 l:i ttle natter 1 a 11 ttle matter, Sir, like issuing hunti.np. lfcences. flo you know, Mr.

Speaker, while Pr. '/<1'cLean was hired and paid to do this joh. that there was a g,:,ntleman down in that department who was an experienced journalist hired to do the sa:me ioh, pushed in the backr,round? Does the honourable Premier want ;r,e to name names? Not only that, Mr. Speal:er, but putting out par:e nfter paf'.e, I think it was in 0ne day that fourteen pages of propaganda w<>nt 011i from }!r. ffcLenn on the hunting licences alone. They were throim in the garbage.

Then the honourable memhers on the other side criticize the former administration about the 'Newfoundland Bulletin.' Wait until we get the total cost of ?,'cLean I s in th.is province for the end of this fiscal year, Sir. ;ust wnit until we get it, it will rnnke the' Newfoundland Bulletin'' look like peanuts. Hr. Speaker, what 1 would like to know is, what precedent is there anywhere in Canada or in North America for pladnp: such large amounts of money in the hands of an outfit whose chief aim appcnrs to be to live off the avails of political patronage into the NcLe;rn organization. How much of this amount, Hr.

Speaker, that vas advanced to ttr. 1>tcLean (and the ~1inister of Finance can tell us about this) how much of that amount of $116,000 was repaid to the government? What interest was charged }fr. McLean if any? If it hns not been repaid it should have been repaid. What about all these film strips ne are now hearing about? Glad to see the ~inister of Tourism is in his seat today, Sir, just back off his inunt to Boston, Philadelphia, Montreal, Toronto, New York. He missed Halifax because the honourable member had ·ss3

February 21, 1973, Tape 225, Page 2 -- apb to be in the House the day the showing went on in Halifax of "Come and Paint and Photoprnph Us.,, Come and paint and photograph us, Nr. Speaker, what a ioke, Sir, what a 1oke! Come and paint and photograph all the rr,others of this province who had to do without the mothers' allowance this year. I would like for the honourahlc Premier to paint one of their faces and see the expression of disappointment. They will have no problem, Sir, in this province to get somehody to paint or somebody to photograph.

We hnve the highest rate of unemployment in Canada, you can f!O anywhere in the province and you can get somebody to photograph and paint, Sir. "Come and Paint and Photograph us, 1 • Imagine, Hr. Speaker, and the honourable Minister of Tourism and his famous Nevfoumlland cocktail party, hnvc now ta}en to the road with that filr,,. I guarantee vou, Sir, when it is shown in all these places - and you know. Mr.

SoE>aker, you would think the honourable minister would be ashaned to announce their whereabouts, but no. his deputy minister calls hack from 1la1Hax and savs: 'We are over here in Halifax now, we had a good crowd today.' Halifax, Boston, New York. Philadelphia, Toronto antl rrontreal. J ,:;uarnntee you. Sir, that film uill lie shown to well lubricated audiences.

I would like to find out how much it is going to cost the taxpayers of this province to have that film shown in all these places and how much it will cost to pay the bills of the McLean's representatives that are accompanying the deputy minister and the minister, what production costs Hr. McLean is getting from this film and how much it is costing for booze?

A gin sippinp. government, gin sinping, they think they can solve the problems of Newfoundland by ~oi.ng off and showinr: a film, "Come and Paint and Photograph Us," with a rlass of gin in their hand, and all the problems of Newfoundland are solved. the tourists are going to start flockinp, to Newfoundland. I would like to know, Sir, and the honourable !-finister of Tourism has not explained this vet~

how are they going to get across the r:ulf, there is n Pottleneclt there already'? f:eorge will pet a f'\oat. AN HON. }~.!';!-:_, Thanks to the Finister of Transport in Ottawa. I understand from the Vinistcr of Transport that we are goin? to pet another boat now/which is a poorl thint?. But, Sir, if I were the ~linister of Tourism.:md they will certainly be glad down in Trepassey and Ferryland and Cape Broyle nnd all these places. they will certainly be glad to know that the minister is out tryin;; to get people to come down and photograph and paint them, clown there on the Southern Shore. AN HON.

HENBER: Delighted. !:!l_._EVAN~_:. It will not be like'"Come Home Year~ vhen they all left Newfoundland. t@-.• ROBE_R~ here. It is not enour,h that the honourable gentleman is sti11 So there it is, film strlps. How much, ~· 1r. Speaker, how much has the film which was done for the fisheries cost the taxpayers of this province? How much, Mr. Spenker? l nsk the honourahle minister to tell this House how much that f1h1 is costinp the tn.xpayers of this province. I would hazard a puess, Sir. that it cost nothing under sixty thousand dollo.rs, sixty thousand dollars, S:ir, for a haphazard job, for a low auality job.

Incidentally, getting back to 1°Come nnd Paint and Photograph us/' I understand, Sir, that that film was pnt together without a script. A photop,rapher was hirt>d to go nround. shoot the film and then it was taken into Toronto, dumped on a desk in Toronto and said; 11here. take this and do something with it." When it came back to the Director of Tourist Development, it was in battered cans. The cans uere second hand ricked up somewhere ns scrap by this ¥"cLean outfit. The reels were not fit to use and that is a fo.ct, Sir, and the Di.rector of Tourist Develonnent 6 !) {)

February 21, 1973. Tape 225, Pape 4 -- apb refused to take delivery of the films; "Send it back to them," Thev did not 'le:ant it i.n the first place, but if it was going to be foisted on them, Sir, it may as well be a half decent job, of Touri1;t Development, "take it back.' So said the Director In addition to the cost of shooting the film, Sir, the production costs done in a haphazard way, another firm in Toronto had to be paid to put the script to the film, nut w--orrlA to it. Then we had Sir Christopher Pratt narrate the fill'l. I do not knoF whether he got paid for that or not.

Sir. the honournh1e Premier might he ahle to tell us whether he got thirty dollars and hour for narrating_ that film. If he tlid, Sir, he was grossly overpnid, because his voice is not at all suited for thnt sort of thing no more than mine is suited for this microphone here~ I have a raspy voice. SONE 1-lON. _ _i-'E!sfBERS:. You are not doing hadlv. You are doine wonrlerfu11v. HR.

NEARY~ -- __ ,. --- Then 1 Sir, the p.:rentest revelation of all and I do not know if this "-'as the purpose for makinµ- the film or not, it certainly will not PCt anv toud.sts to Newfoundlnnd, we come to the dyinp,: minutes of the film an<l w.e 1':iCe the real purpose of making the film. the real purpose nnd that is goinr, to he shotffl all over North Anerica I supposc,nt one tire or another

February 21, 1973 Tape 226 Hr. Neary: The last reports we. had from New Yark, evcrvthing is booked solid and everybody wants to come to Newfoundland to paint and photograph the tmemoloyed and the mothers of this nrovince who did not ~et any financial help this vear to fit out their children poing to school. t.,fhat a joke. Sir. What n ioke. Why anv member of this House who has nhotor;rnnhv for a hobby, any member who kno\.Js anvthinr at ,11 l about photorraphy could go out and take the slide projections th,1t the hon. Hinistc>r of F:ducation, the mf'mher for St.

John's North ,-ihen he was the minister told us that nny phntor.raphcr could po out and do it for $25.00, $50.00 at the most. I will double him, SSO.f/0 at the most. 1 have often made a slide pn:.,scntat:ion myscl f. Sir. Then the hon. member for St. folm 1 s North, we11 I would take this. Sir, as n r1ross insult. Mr. McLean comes hack and says. ''You know why the hon. member for St. John's }forth was rlirty with us. You know why he mentioned us.bec:mse he could not get his picture in all these s1ides. 11 t do not beHPve thctt, Hr.

Speaker. t know the hon. member is egoistical and I know members on th3t side are arrorant and a member is verv photographic but I do not bcl ieve, Sir, that he insisted on hnving hl:1 in everyone of thesr pictures. I do not think he did. One slide nresent.:1.tion,S4,1100. It could have been don.:c for $25.00 hy any amateur photo~ranher. I made reference to thi.s scruffy looking tourist booklet. I nm lookinr, at the Auditor General's Tieport in it, Sir. The hon. Minister of Finance mir:ht agree that thnt is kind of a scruffv document too, Sir, but it is a necessary doct.lt:l.e.nt,if I can find 1t.

As I said previously 1 Sir. 80,000 copies of this were dumped in Robin Hood Bay and fortunately for the people of this province they were dumped. Any tourist who picked this up on the mainland and looked at it, it would turn his stomach nnd he would sny,'1 am not goinR down there if that is the best they can do ! 1 Now we hear, Mr. Speaker, that

February 21, 1973 Tape 226 JM - 2 Mr. McLean is now getting another publication out on industrial development in Newfoundland. This is the one that prompted the Minister of Tourism to make the statement that he did~not know anything about it, it had nothing to do with the government. 11 It was a McLean Enterprise," he said. Well. Sir, we have arents of Mr. !-fcLean r:oing around St. ,John I s tryinµ to browbeat advertisers into buyinr the S/50,QO or SS00.00 advertisement in this publication on industrial development. Two weeks ar.::o, Sir.

I had a call personally from one of the biggest corporations in this province. I would say without fear of contradiction that it was the biggest. nm' brought to mv attention that one of the leg men. one of the outfits hired by McLean to go and solicit advertising from potential nrlvertisers. one of the leg rnen went to this firm, this co-operation. It is a giant in Newfoundland ,Sir ,and said, "We are hnck again looking for an ad for this industrinl development publication that we nre puttinA out.

Vou rememher last vear we rmt out 'Newfoundland anrl Labrador 1972,' and this vear the rovernment~ave 3poroved,have given us their hlessing to put out another publication on industrial development. •t This great giant, Sir. this great c:ornoration said. "No, we nre not giving you any advertising. ·i and sent the representative of a firm that was looking for the nd, sent him packing on his way. About a week or ten days later. Sir, he was hack again. HT came back to see if you had changed your mind, Are you now f!Oing to take an ad?" ·'rfo, not going to take it.

We were not a bit impressed with the last nublication you put out. It accomplished no purpose, was not in the best interest of Newfoundland. No, we are not going to take the ad. no." So an agrument developed with this representative and then he finally tipped his hand anti said, 0 Well, what are you all? Are vou all liberals here? 11 They werr- not. They were not all liberals but they have freedom of choice. Then, Mr. Speaker, a representative of the corporation called me 6D3

February 21, 1973 Tape 226 JM - 3 because he knew that 1 had this firm under close surveillance, cn11ecl me to infonn me what was goinr; on. of the political overtones. Yet. the Minister of Finance says no, he docs not know anything at all about it. Give him the letter, give him the hlessinr.s but does not knou :mvthinP at all about it. Then we see. Mr. Speaker, on television ,these commericnls. They have new ones now I understand.in colour, from the Highways Department. We hnve all seen thPm. 1 would like to know, Sir. how much these are costing the tmrnavers of this province.

CouJ d that money he hctter used in this nrovincc? What nhout the r.overnment that talker! so much about pr:forities. estnblishtnr nriorities? The hon. Minister of Hin-hwavs m<1de a pr;we error in judgement rm doing away with the reflectorized license plates, suhstitutinr. for them license plates made over in Nova Seoti;;, inferior 011a1itv rJates. Now he has to try to make up for it nnrl ;,long comes f-ir, :'fcLenn whn thinks that Newfoundlanders are stunid, thinks the Premier is stunid in case he does not know it, made the stntem.mc to his emplovces. "Hhnt are Fe worrier! about?

Tlwv nre all stupirl down here ,1nvw,1v :m<l the Premier is no better thnn the rest. '1 Along comes Hr. McLean to the Minister of Hip.;hways and snys. "Do not worry about a thing hoy. He h:-we the answer to vour problem. A little public relations, that is the answer. 11 So the Minister of Highways,thinkin}?' that Hr.

HcLean is the great exncrt on puhlic reltitions.decides to take him rm his word and the next thing we have ccnmercinls appearing on television as a result of .1 statement n::idr by the Minister of Highways that we are going to use the savings. he s:.iid, '\;e_ are going to use the savinrs on just buyinp: one year non-reflectorized license nlates to run a safoty nrop:ramme on our highways 1 • 1 \Jhat savings. Mr. Spenker? What savinr:s? 1,Je could have used the plates that we have for another two years nr three years. The'ones that we have now. the inferior quality ones are ,. n • \) J ·.i

February 21, 1973 Tape 226 JM - 4 costing S60.000 or upwards of $60,000 and the minister says there is a savin~s and we are going to pass that on to Mr. McLean, another safety programme for us. Has anybody seen these commercials. Sir? Do they remember what they are all about? I have observed them on a number of occasions and I do not remember today what it is all about, Tt did not impress me. It did not impress anybody, It is 1ust another little goody for Mr. McLean. 695

February 21 t 1973 Tape no. 227 Page I - MRW MR. NEARY. Throw them a very more goodies. How much more of this scandalous extravagance are we going to have, Sir? I would like to know, Mr~ Speaker, who authorized Mr. McLean and his colleagues to go around this city and around this province, using high-handed tactics to trf and sell advertising on this slovenly broadsheet they are using under the guise of industrial developmentt which is really only designed to suck money out of the advertisers and out of the government: 'I would like to know who authorized it, Sir. I would like to know who gave it their blessings.

AN HON. MEMBER: The former Department of Welfare. MR. NEARY: Sir, the honourable members on the opposite side are real experts on kick back. They are the experts on kick backs. Well ML George McLean, Sir, is not beyond kick backs to whomever he feels necessary, Mr. Speaker~ to strengthen his stranrlehold on his quick buck wheeling and dealing in our provincew MR. MARSHALL: Point of order, Mr.

Speaker, if the hon. member for Bell Island is imputing, impugning or making any references to any­ body in this House, would he care to elucidate his commentsJ because if he is talking about an individual on kick backs and he is making any references or any hints, let him come out and say it directly. We will deal with it then. MR. ROBERTS : Point of order 1 Mr. Speaker, my colleague is making exactly the sorts of references that the hon. gentleman from St. John's East (Extern) has made at times and the hon. Minister of Finance has made on occasion.

I did not hear him refer to any member of this House, unless Your Honour did* I submit he should be allowed to continue without these interruptions. MR. CROSBIE: Point of order, Mr. Speaker~ the hon. Leader of the Opposition, 6 :Hi

February 21 , 1972 Mr. Crosbie. Tape no. 227 Page 2 in making his comments, referred to comments made by me on some occasion - what occasion and what comments? I have never made a statement in this House that l was not prepared to back up about kick backs or anything else or any one. If the hon. member for Bell Island has any allegations to make about kick backs, name the person over here who is receiving kick backs 1and make the charge. AN HON, MEMBER: And do it now. MR. CROSBIE: Then we will have another inquiry or make it outside the House and we will test it in the courts that way. MR. HICKEY: Mr.

Speaker, point of order: May l reiterate the statement made by the hon. Minister of Finance. The charges I made against any one in this House are now the subject of investigation and they will be proven. MR, ROBERTS: Sir, the honourable gentleman has missed the point. Nobody referred MR. SPEAKER: Order: Order please! JiR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. the honourable gentleman from the Extern has missed the point. Whether deliberately or negligently, I will leave it to others to judge. I made no reference to anything he said about any member of the House. l then said that that particular matter is subjudice. Mr.

Justice Mifflin is enquiring into it and in due course, no doubt. will bring in a report and we shall see. The references I made were to the references made, I believe, yesterday, if not the day before in this House by the gentleman from St. John's East(Extern) when he referred to kick backs and so on. My colleague from Bell Island has not in m'f hearing (I have not heard all of the debate, but I have heard most of it) referred to kick backs to members of this House. The way I heard it was he said. 11in his opinion. Mr. McLean is quite capable of making kick. backs, 11 so there. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, the point raised by the hon. 6D7

February 21 1 1973 Tape No. 228 NM - 1 MR. BARRY: Leader of the Opposition in pointing out the matters that may have been breaches of the rules of the House by members on this side or by members on the other sidei is totally irrelevant. The sole issue here is whether the member for Rell Island is in breach of the rules of the House by any statement that he has made. One of the statements thnt he made was, if I have it correctly~ that the honourable members on the other side of the House have had experience vith kickbncks. We will see whether these are the exact words, Mr. Speaker, the point is t1r.

Speaker, chat it was obvious that: there were certain inferences and imputations attempted to be made by the honourable member for Bell Island. These are out of order. M.R. ROBERTS: No, Hr. Speaker, with respect. to the honourable gentlemanTs Point of Order - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. 1 would suggest that it is completely out of order for any honourable member to impute this to any other member and I caution the honourable member for Bell Island to be a little more careful of his phaseology. ~~-- NEARY: ~1r.

Speaker, as Your Honour knows because you are following my debate very closely. that I did not infer in any way that members of the opposite side were involved, what l did say was that Mr. McLean - Hr. McLean~ I said, is not above this mntter of kickbacks to whomever he feels lt is necessary,,to strengthen his stranglehold on his quick-buck wheeling-dealing in our province. £!R~C_gpSBIE_;_ Mr. Speaker, why does the honourable member not make that statement outside the House and give Mr. McLean a chance to test that? MR.

ROBERTS: Anymore than the honourable the Minister of Finance did not make his statements about John Shaheen outside the House. MR. CROSBIE: I made mine outside, inside the House. I have never hesitated and the honourable gentleman now is imputing, making a

February 21, 1973 Tape No. 228 NM - 2 MR. CROSBIE: charge against Mr. George McLean that he is afraid to make outside the House. MR, ROBERTS: - we say what we believe, that is what the honourable gentleman has done. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. I remind honourable members of this honourable House that the honourable gentleman has the right to be heard in silence. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, thank you Sir. Mr. Speaker, did you ever hear such hypocritical nonsense in your life? The honourable Minister of Finance, does anybody remember, Sir, the televised sessions of this honourable House? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

The honourable member still has to observe the rule of relevancy. MR.. NEARY: Anyway, Sir, those who live in glass houses should never take a bath. Now, Sir, we were told by the honourable the Premier sometime ago when this matter of McLean's was raging in this province, we were told by the honourable the Premier sometime ago, before the House opened and the honourable Premier has had incidentally, Mr. Speaker, talking about these charges or alleged charges that I made, Mr. Speaker, is this not the very point in having this select committee set up, is this not the very reason behind it?

If the members and the ministers and the Premier and all that crowd on the other side have nothing to hide, Sir, would they not agree to have a select committee of the House set up to investigate this outfit? Would they not agree, Mr. Speaker? If they do not agree with this resolution to set up a select committee, then obviously, Sir, they have something to hide. So what do they have to hide, Mr. Speaker? What do they have to hide? AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR, NEARY: That is right. MR. ROBERTS: That is what they are discovering on the other side now.

February 21, 1973 Tape No. 228 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: So I was dealing with the Minister of Tourism down there. The minister announced several ~eeks ago that he had doubled his budget this year - doubled his budget or expenditure. "Going to double it," he said. He c.ould not justify it when I challenged him publicly to state why he was doublinr, his expenditure this year. r said at the time that it appeared to be a calculated move to throw a few more dollars into the coffers of Hr. McLean, the statement went unchallenged by the Minister of Tourism.

Mothers could not get the Mothers Allowance to fit out their children going to school. Hungry children in this province, not enough fuel oil to keep houses warm in this frigid weather we are having - the Minister of Tourism doubles his budget_, I challenged him to explain why. He did not see fit to do it. Now, Sir, it is all coming out and we know vhy, 700

February 21, 1973 Tape 229 PK - l to pay for this spectacle we see travelling across Canada and the United States today and shown before well lubricated audiences. The minister should tell us in this debate how much is that going to cost the taxpayers of this province~ How inuch of the budget of the honourable minister's department goes for advertising and mark-up in production costs to that carpetbegger from Toronto? The minister in this debate must be prepared to give us a complete breakdown on what has been done with that extra money and wha