Manitoba Hansard — 11 October 1988 (Sitting 54, 34th Legislature, 1st Session)

34-1-54

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fourth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS {HANSARD) 37 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXVII No. 54 - 1:30 p.m., TUE SDAY, OC TOBER 11, 1988. ISSN 0542-5492 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fourth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME CONSTITUENCY ALCOCK ,R eg Os borne ANGUS, John St. Norbert ASHTO N, Sieve Thompson BURRELL, Parker Swan River CARR, James Fort Rouge CARSTAIRS, Sharon River Heights CHARLES, Gwen Selkirk CHEEMA, Gulzar Kildonan CHORNOPYSKI, William Burrows CONNER Y, Edward Hon. Portage la Prairie COWA N, Jay Churchill CUM�INGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose du Lac DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell DOER, Gary Concordia DOW NEY, James Hon. Arthur DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Emerson DRIEDGER, Herold, L. Niakwa DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon.

Aiel EDWARDS, Paul St. James ENNS, Harry Lakeside ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood EVANS, Laurie Fort Garry EVANS, Leonard Brandon East FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo FINDLAY, Glen Hon. Vir den GAl.ID,RY, Neil St. Boniface GILLESHAMMER, Harold Minnedosa GRAY, Avis Ellice HAMMOND, Gerrie Kirldield Park HARAPIAK, Harry The Pas HARPER, Elijah Rupertsland HELWER, Edward R. Gimli HEMPHILL, Maureen Logan KOZAK, Richard, J. Transcona LAMOUREUX, Kevin, M. lnkster MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood MANDRAKE, Ed .Assiniboia MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris McCRAE, James Hon. Brandon West MINENKO, Mark Seven Oaks MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon.

River East NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. Rossmere OLESON, Charlotte Hon. Gladstone ORCHARD, Donald Hon. Pembina PANKRATZ, Helmut La Verendrye PATTERSON, Alii'" Radisson PENNER, Jack, Hon. Rhineland PLOHMAN, John Dauphin PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Turtle Mountain ROCH, Gilles Springfield ROSE, Bob St. Vital STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon TAYLOR, Harold Wolseley URUSKI, Bill lnterlake WASYLYCIA-LEIS, Judy St.

Johns YEO, lva Sturgeon Creek PARTY LIBER AL LI BERAL NDP PC LIBERAL LIBER AL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBE RAL PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC LI BERAL PC LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LI BERAL PC NDP NDP PC NDP LI BERAL LI BERAL NDP LIBERAL PC PC LIBE RAL PC PC PC PC PC LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC LI BERAL LIB ERAL NDP LI BERAL NDP NDP LIBERAL

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA TUesday, October 11, 1988. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEE DINGS MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Jack Penner (Minister of Natural Resources): lt gives me great pleasure to table the report on the Rafferty-Aiameda Dams Project. Some Honourable Members: Hear, Hear! * (13 35) INTRODUCTION OF BILLS BILL NO. 32- THE MANITOBA INSTITUTE OF THE PURCHASING MANAGEMENT ASSOCIATION OF CANADA ACT Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet) introduced , by leave, Bill No. 32, The Manitoba In stitute of The Purchasing Management Association of Canada Act;

Loi sur l'i nstitut manitobain de I' association canadienne de gestion des achats. BILL NO. 31- THE CHILD AND FAMILY SERVICES AMENDMENT ACT Mr. Jerry Storie (Fiin Flon) introduced, by leave, Bill No. 31, The Child and Family Services Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les services a !'enfant et a la famille. MOTION presented. Mr. Storie: As is customary, I would like to make a few remarks prior to it being received for first reading. Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate that this amendment is required.

I think Members on both sides of the House recognize the fact that when The Child and Family Services Act was introduced, it was introduced after serious consultation with many different groups in our society, with the singular purpose of preventing abusive situations from arising in our society, general ly, and to put the onus for repor ting such abus es on the appropriate people in charge and care of children in our society.

We have recen tly seen an example where that reporting mechanism has failed a couple of individuals, young people, in our society, and I believe it is important that we respond immediately to prevent those kinds of unfortunate incide nts from occurring again in the futu re. The import of the legisla tion th at I have introduced today is to ensure that the reporting of abuse, where the abus e, sexual or othe rwise, is occurring by a third party, will also be mandatory so that we can assure ourselves that situations such as the one that developed at the St.

Charles Academy does not occur again or that its likeli hood of occurring in the future is severely limited. Mr. Sp eak er, I think we all rec ogn ize tha t the obligations upon the professional staff in our schools, private or public, are serious. We have to be assured that all understand the obligations, and this should not be viewed as an amendment directed at private schools versus public schools. I believe that in line with what Mr. Kulyk, the President of the Manitoba Association of School Trustees, said, it is unlikely that these kinds of situations will develop frequently in the public system.

We need to have that assurance that they will not develop in any system. The amendments are minor in that I do not believe it would take very long for this Chamber to approve them. I believe they are significant enough and serious enough tha t they demand the app roval of this Legislature immediately. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior to oral questions, may I direct Honourable Members' attention to the gallery, where we have with us today Dr. Oleks andr Bilodid, Professor of Philology at the Kiev State Univ ersity.

We also have Reverend Sozont Chobych, a candidate in Theology at Moscow Theological Acad emy, and Mr. Vladamir Chuchko, representative of the Ukrainian Society in Kiev. These gentlemen are in Winni peg lecturing at the Un iversities of Winn ipeg and Manitoba as part of the celebration commemorating the Mi llennium of Christianity in the Ukraine. On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welcome you here this afternoon. * (13 40) ORAL QUE STION PERIOD Health Care Emergency Services Mrs . Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard).

Psychiatric patients spending days in emergency wards without any treatment, certainly no counselling; children who cannot receive speech therapy for up to 18 months; the elderly and infirm being told to look after themselves; and patients at the Health Scienc es Centre lying around on mattresses on the floor-i t is quite evident that we have a crisis in health care in Manitoba, a crisis the Minister recognized when he was in Opposition but does not seem willing to do anything about now that he is in Government. Can the 1996

Tuesday, October 11, 1988 Minister tell this House specifically what action he has taken si nce Frida y to ensur e the coord in ation of emergency services in our hospitals in the City of Winni peg? Hon . Donald Orchard (Minister of Healt h): Mr. Sp eak er, fi rst of all, let me corr ect some of the inaccuracies in the

preamble of my honourable friend, the Le ader of the Op posit ion's (Mr s. Carstairs) questions. First of all, she ought not to necessarily follow hook, line and sinker that the policy of home care has changed in her allegation that people are being cut off the program wholesale. That is simply not a factual statement. I would beg her to investigate further before making those kinds of loose accusations which serve no other purpose than to raise unwarranted, unfounded fears amongst those receiving home care. Mr.

Speaker, in terms of speech therapy, which was another area of concern mentioned by the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Car stairs), that is an area in which we do not have adequa te resou rces to care for preschool children. We have tended to concent rate our resources post entry to school. That issue is under discussion, as I have mentioned on earlier questions from Members of the Opposition, with the Association of Speech Therapists of Manitoba as wel l as the department. In terms of the specific concern raised by the Leader of the Op position (Mrs.

Carstairs), regarding the events at the Health Sciences Centre Emergency Ward, I want to indicate to my honourable friend, the Leader of the Liberal Opposition, tha t within the Department of Health there is a committee struck to deter mine what the problem was on Friday because there were accusations and counteraccusations flying between the hospitals. That simply does not allow us to make reasoned decisions. A committee has been struck between the hospitals to determine what was the problem and how do we go about rectifying that problem. Acute Care Beds Mrs.

Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): With a supplementary question to the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard). Will the Minister tell the House, in that it is obvious we have a shortage of acute care hospital beds, what he is doing to ensure the most effective use of those acute care beds? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): The use of acute care hospital beds is, first and foremost, determined wit hin the hospital system by the management of those hospital syst ems.

What we attempt to do as Government, and I do not believe that this circumstance has changed significantly over the past· number of years, is we attempt, through the normal budgeting process, to allow for sufficient budgeting of our hospitals so that the administration, the medical staff and others within the hospital envi ronment can be reasonably assured that they can carry out their mandate of deliv ery of acute care. That process, Mr. Speaker, has not changed; it contin ues to be the process by which budgeting decisions are made and use of acute care beds are dete rmined. Mrs.

Carstairs: Can the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) tell this House today how many chronic care patients in Manitoba are presently occupying acute care beds? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I cannot give my honourable friend the exact numbers today. I could provide that information when I request it from the department.

What has been established for the past number of years has been a certain number of beds in all our acute care institutions in Winnipeg, our hospitals in Winnipeg, as well as throughout rural Manitoba- certain designated spots where those patients who are panelled for personal care home placement and for whom a bed in a personal care home is not readily available, and should those individuals not be able to remain in their homes, even with the support of home care, that they remain in the hospitals until the available personal care home bed is ready for them to occupy.

I can give my honourable friend those numbers as soon as I am provided them from the department. * (1 345) Mrs. Carstairs: Can the Minister tell this House, in that two separate families got in touch with me this weekend to ind icate that the only reason their family member is occupying a bed in hospital is because there is not home care services available for them, how many of those patients are presently occupying beds in the Province of Manitoba, acute care beds, when these people could go home if there was home care service? Mr. Orchard: I cannot give that answer to that specific question today either.

As I indicated to my honourable friend in my previous answer, there are panelled patients throughout the Province of Manitoba-! suppose some 1,200 if my memory serves me corr ect ly-w ho are aw aiting personal care home pl acement. Some of th ose individuals are in hospitals awaiting personal care home placement. Some indeed are at home, supported in their home by the home care services as has been the tradition over the last number of years. The system always has a blend of both.

I cannot concur with my honourable friend, the Leader of the Oppo sition tha t two ind ividuals are ther e specifically because home care services does not exist. That, Mr. Speaker, is not necess arily the case, because both circumstances exist. Home Care System Hous ekeeping Services Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): With another question to the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard). Joe Cels, a member of the Civil Service, said that there was only one project in all of Manitoba established for non-profit homemaking services.

Can the Minister tell this House how all of those presently receivi ng home care services for houseke eping purposes are going to continue to receive it when there is only one such project in all of Manitoba? 1997

Tuesday, October 11, 1988 Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): I am pleased to answer that question. I was going to do it after Question Period, but I might just as well do it now whilst the question is directly to the non-profit community-based home care services. Mr. Cels is quite correct, the ADM in Community Services, in tha t one, through ARC Ind ustries in Beause jour , is currently prov iding not-for-profit housekeeping services to which, as per policy, etc., individua ls accessing home care for house clean ing services or homemaking services are referred .

That is the only such system funded out of Community Services. I erred on Friday, October 7, when I indicated that the de vel opment of not-for-profit home clean ing services was funded through Community Services. I should have indicated that it is funded through Support Services to Seniors, which is a program within the Department of Health and through which, I believe, some 21 not -fo r-profit homemaking services are available throughout the Province of Manitoba, including the City of Wi nnipeg. Health Advisory Network Member List Request Mrs.

Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): We were hoping from this Government that there would be some new initiatives in health care, but unfortunately there appear to be none. In its Throne Speech, this Government promised to establish a Health Advisory Network. Can the Minister inform the House today who are the Members of this network and table in the House a list of their duties and functions of this network? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, no, I can do neither because the mem bers of the Health Advisory Network have not been appointed and have not been established to date.

That should possibly come as no surprise to my honourable friends because the establishment of the Health Advisory Network is not deemed to be a quick-fix scenario as possibly the Royal Commission, as promised by the Leader of the Opposition during the election campaign, which was her magic solution to ident ifying solutions and problems in the health care system.

The Health Advisory Network will commission specifical ly areas of investigation and recommendation for change. lt will do that through extensive community consultation with the individuals not only involved in del ivery of health care but, inde ed , the affected consumer groups in that health care program. * (1 350) Thermal Coal Plants Environmental Impact Study Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Sp eake r, my qu es tion is for the Minis ter of Environment (Mr. Connery).

Today, in committee, we learned that one of the alternatives for future hydro 1998 development is indeed contrary to where most countries and provinces are going. lt is going to be in the development of thermal coal plants to replace and refurbish the coal plants to replace the- perhaps the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard)- 1 am trying to ask the Minister of Environment (Mr. Conne ry) a question to indeed somewhat refurbish those plants, expand those plants and have future development on those coal plants.

Given the fact that Hydro, on the one hand, is talking about the negative effects of the green house effect and, on the other hand, they are proceeding with the Government in developing, on the fast track, this alternative, has the Minister of Environment ordered an environmental study of the effects of these coal plants or expansion of these coal plants, and could he table that in this House today? Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health): Mr.

Speake r, the Member knows that any significant operation that goes on in this province has to have an environmental impact study done before it can proceed. That has not changed. Environmental Impact Study Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Concordia, with a supplementary question. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my second question is to the Minister of Environment (Mr. Connery).

Given the fact that he has had these documents presented to him in Cabinet, dealing with those alternatives, and he has not instituted an environmental impact study, and we were also told that the alternative of Wuskwatim is now being proposed to replace the development of hydro on the Nelson River system, the replacement of Wuskwatim, which will cause flooding and damage on the Burntwood River to communities and environmental damage, has the Minis ter, in reviewi ng tha t alterna tive, init iated an environmental impact study and an environmental study that he could table in this House? Hon.

Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Speaker, there is no intention to expand the thermal plants at either Selkirk or at Brandon. What we have said is that in unde rtaking expansion of hydro projects, we must first look at all alternatives for lesser cost generation. One of those alternatives might well be to keep the thermal plants in Selkirk and in Brandon going for the period of time that it is needed, which might be, say, up until 1999. That is all we have said. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, the Government talked today in terms of an option and an alternative for producing electric power in the future, which indeed was the thermal coal plants. They talked in terms of refurbishing those plants and producing more electricity, which obviously means more days to be used . My question is to the Minister of Environment (Mr. Connery). The Minister of Energy (Mr. Neufeld) did not answer the question of the Wuskwatim project. Today, in committee, we were told by Hydro officials that they

Tuesd ay, October 11, 1988 do not do environmental impact studies. Would the Minister of Environment please tell us whether he has initiated any studies to deal with these alternatives that are before Government, and will he please table those studies in this Chamber, dealing with the environmental impact on the Wuskwatim project and indeed the effect of the green house on the Wuskwatim Dam? Mr. Neufeld: The Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) again tried to put on the record that we are planning on expanding the thermal plants. That is not the case.

We are looking at the cost of refurbishing the plants as an alternative to a new generation on the Nelson River. As far as Wuskwatim is concerned, it is another alternative that Hydro is looking at. They have not come to a decision and, as such, did not have to go to an environmental impact study until they have come to a decision on which might be the best alternative. Hydro does not at this time know which alternatives they wish to pursue. lt could be Wu skwa tim, it could be Conawapa, but when the time comes that they have come to a decision on it, th ey will do the study. *

(1355) Environmental Impact Study Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): We were informed in committee that Hydro is not doing the environ mental impact study or the social impact studies. The Government is now talking about making a decision and having the environmental impact study after that decis ion. My question to the Minister of Environment (Mr. Connery): would it not make a lot more sense to consider the environmental impacts of Wuskwatim and the coal plant before Hydro and the Government make its final decisions? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier) : Wha t the Member opposite is suggesting is that Manitoba Hydro, who is the proponent of the project, or would be the proponent, should do its own envi ronmental impact study and own social impact study. That is not the way it works and he should know it from being in Go vern ment. The fact is that you have a separate arm's length relationship in which, if indeed there is an environmental impact study required, that would be done by a separate authority under the authority of the Minister of the Environment. The Member for Concordia (Mr.

Doer) should know that his Government refused to have an environmental impact study of Limestone-a 1,200 megawatt plant and the y refused to have an environmental impact study. Now he is suggesting that Manitoba Hydro should be the proponent and should also conduct its own environmental impact study. He does not understand the process, Mr. Speaker. Hig h School Review Tabling Request Mrs . lva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): During these past few weeks, I have received many questions regarding the status of the High School Review.

Young people in high school are trying to finalize their course choices for their last one or two years in school in preparation for university, college or the work force. Junior high school students are looking at their decisions with regard to various classes. Teachers and parents are being told to wait, th ings may change, de pen din g on the recommendation of the High School Review Committee. Mr. Sp eak er, these recom menda tions were anticipated in January of 1988. On August 3, the Honourable Minister of Education (Mr.

Derkach) stated in the House that he has received a draft copy, and on August 8 he stated that the review would be ready in its final form by the end of September. I ask the Minister of Education: When will the rest of Manitobans receive this long overdue report? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): I guess I should indicate to the House that we on this side, and I, as Minister of Education, am just as anxious to have the report tabled as the Opposition are to receive it. However, the report is in translation and until the translation is complete, we cannot table that report.

As soon as I have received a copy of that report in its final form, I will be only too happy to table it. Funding Mrs. lva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): My supplementary to the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach). Can I ask the Minister-is this delay for the most

part caused by the fact that the review was inadequately funded and therefore has not been able to address some of the concerns sufficiently? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): No, Mr. Speaker. I do not know where the Honourable Member gets her information, but that is certainly inaccurate. The only reason that the report has not been tabled, and I have indicated this before, is because the translation on it is not complete. As soon as that is done, we will be in a position to table the report. *

(1400) I.B. Program Mrs. lva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): My final supplementary to the same Minister. What assurances can the Minister give the House that many of the concerns that parents, teachers and students have with regard to the 1.8. Program will be addressed in the responses of the High School Review? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): Again, this is all a matter which will be addressed when the High School Review report is presented in its final form. We, on this side of the House, had a lot of questions when we were in Opposition with regard to the status of the 1.8.

Program; and once that report is tabled and once we have received it in its final form, then we will be able to address not only that issue but all issues that were addressed in the High School Review. 1999

Tuesda~ October 11, 1988 Open Custody Government Policy Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): My question is for the Attorney-General (Mr. Mccrae). As the Attorney-General well knows , judges often give young offenders open custody sentences in this province which have a very specific mandate . The concept of open custody has been successful in this province and many other jur isdictions in dealing with problematic youth at a very critical stage. I am sure the Attorney-General will agree with me that judges ' sentences should be respected as much as is possible at all times.

Presently , I regret to inform this House, that they are not, and in particular on this open custody issue . The Attorney -General , I am sure, knows that three years ago there were 22 homes in this city with over 40 beds for open custody wards; now there are 3 homes with 10 beds, of which only 2 are being used, while approximately 90 young offenders are in Agassiz or the Manitoba Youth Centre in what amounts to, in effect , closed custody . My question is: has the policy of the Government changed or is this Government still committed to real open custody in appropriate cases? Hon .

James Mccrae (Attorney-General): The Honourable Member raises a matter that has been looked into by me, and I can tell the Honourable Member that there has been no change in policy . The fact is that some youths do not work out very well in an open custody setting and , in fact , we have cases of youthf ul offenders running away from open custody situations . On the other hand, the open custody situation at the Youth Centre is not strictly closed custody as the Honourable Member's question would seem to suggest .

There are many of the day pass provisions that are available to open custody youths in open custody homes . Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for St . James , with a supplementary question. Mr. Edwards: I regret to have to inform the Attorney General (Mr. McCrae) that there is a unilateral system by which anyone who has been sentenced to under four months is sent to the Agassiz Youth Centre or the Manitoba Youth Centre .

That certainly does not belie any merit that the Attorney-General suggests behind the decision not to put them into real open custody homes , and I hope the Attorney-General is not suggesting that in-house schooling and locked doors in the Agassiz Youth Centre in any way replaces the real int egration of open custody homes in real communities . My question is: what is preventing the Attorney-General from respecting the real wishes of judges , and why is this unilateral four-month provision in place , in effect , in the Corrections Branch? Mr.

Mccrae: I will certainly check into the Honourable Member 's suggestion that there is an automatic closed custody sentence after the imposition of an open custody sentence , which is what he seems to be suggesting . In fact, Mr. Speaker , every effort is being made by Correct ions staff to determine that eligible youth for the open custody homes with vacancies find themselves in such a setting. A review of assessment and placement practices with short-term sentenced youths is also being undertaken by the department .

So the Honourable Member is not quit e correct when he says that it is automatic , that you are going to end up in closed custody when you are sentenced to open custody. It is just not true, again. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for St. James (Mr. Edwards) , with a final supplementary. Mr. Edwards: I see the Attorney-General (Mr. Mccrae) is reading and that may be what the manual says. Wha t I am telling him is what is really happening . Some Honourable Members: Oh , oh! Mr. Speaker: Question . Mr. Edwards: I am sure he will find that out when he checks.

We hear continual complaints and I am sure the Attorney-General does . Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member for St. James have a question? Mr. Edwards: I certainly do. I am wondering if the Honourable First Minister (Mr. Filmon) perhaps has a question. Perhaps he would like to ask it. Mr. Speaker: Will the Honourable Member kindly put his question now? Mr. Edwards: My final question . Is this Government committed to open custody in residential communities in this province, as we hear continual complaints about the overcrowding of our institutio ns?

Does he see it as a real alternative and a good alternative, one we are supporting and promoting within the correcti onal system? Mr. Mccrae: That is why such a disposition is available and is there. The Honourable Member is suggesting that youths sentenced to open custody and are spending their time at the Youth Centre, that that somehow is closed custody . There are separate portions of the facility available for open custody inmates and for closed custody inmates. At the present time, there are 50- this is as of September 26-yout hs in the open custody program at the Manitoba Youth Centre.

The Honourable Member is off the mark again. He comes forward with information in this House on a continual basis that is always incorrect. Mr. Speaker: Order , please; order, please . Manitoba Hydro Export Sales Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): I think Manitobans were saddened to read in the paper that the Minister of Energy (Mr. Neufeld ) and the Conservative Government have now blown the negotiations with the Upper 2000

Tuesday, October 11, 19 88 Mississippi Power Group. The Minister would like us to believe, and have M3nitobans believe, that these suspended negotiations are as a result of something other than the Minister of Energy and Mines' and the new Chairman of Manitoba Hydro's attitude towards the export of power.

In light of the fact that this particular sale stood to gain Manitoba Hydro some $4 billion in revenue, can the Minister explain to this House what information was provided to him by his staff, by staff at Manitoba Hydro, that would lead him to change his attitude toward the development of export sales in the United States? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I hesitate to remind the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) about what his Government said on February 14, 1986.

At a news conference in Tho mpson, the former Member for Transcona and the former Premier said at that time that they had already an agreement on $4.3 billion worth of hydro sales. Here it is: "Pawley announces $4.3 billion in new Hydro exports." This is Thompson, February 14, 1986. "P remier Howard Pawley and Energy and Mines Minister Wilson Parasiuk, on Friday, announced three new hy dro-electric export arrangements and a commitment to establishing a long term development foundation with Hydro revenue." Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr.

Filmon: On February 14, 1986, they announced that they had an arrangement to sell this power. A couple of days later, those utilities said, and here is the headline: "U.S. side issues power mega sale caution." Of course, the caution was that they were just talking. There was no agreement, no arrangement nothing. Later, as we asked questions day after day after day, month after month, a year later, we found out that several of the utilities had dropped out. They were not even in the discussions.

As time went on, we found that there really were just preliminary discussions and in fact there was no agreement, there was nothing on the table, and there never was the kind of "almost" deal that the Member for Flin Flan (Mr. Storie) talks about. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Mr. Storie: I think that rather spirited, misdirected energy by the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) indicates how seriously he is wounded by the fact that his Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufeld) has not been able to conclude this deal or, in fact, any others. Mr.

Speaker, I am glad to have that rhetoric on the record and I will be dealing with that in due course. * (1410) 2001 Future De velopments Mr. Jerry Storie {Fiin Flon): My second question is to the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufeld). Due to the comments made and the attitude expressed by both the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro (Mr. Neufeld) and the chairman of Manitoba Hydro, it became evident to everyone in the committee that in fact the Alumax deal is dead as well.

My question to the Minister of Energy and Mines is given that the committee was told that there would be no incentive rates by Manitoba Hydro, that the Free Trade Agreement prevented that-and that was also part of the president's report to the committee-and in view of the fact that the Minister is concerned about the long-term capital costs of an aluminum project, will the Minister responsible for Energy and Mines now admit to Manitobans that the Alumax deal is dead, the UM PG deal is dead, and in fact he has also bungled the HBM&S modernization program? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): � Mr.

Speaker, which one of those questions would he � like me to deal with first? First of all, the mandate of Manitoba Hydro is to provide power to Manitobans at the least possible cost. If the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) wants us to subsidize the rate paid by Alumax or any other big user of Hydro, let him tell that to the users of Hydro, the everyday domestic consumer. Shall he pay the cost? Somebody must pay the cost. I suppose that the Member for Flin Flon believes that it is fair to charge a homeowner for the cost of electricity that should be borne by the industrial user. I should say, also, Mr.

Speaker, that the deal with Alumax is not dead. The negotiations are ongoing . Again, we cannot negotiate an agreement with Alumax or any other large user in this House. We have to deal with that on a confidential basis. As time goes on and we come to an agreement or do not come to an agreement, we will make the announcement in this House. Mr. Storie: The Minister indicated quite clearly to committee the reasons why a project like Alumax would not be going forward. He cannot have it both ways.

He cannot be concerned about the cost of capital investment for the additional development of electric energy and at the same time say that does not have an impact on Alumax. Hudson Bay Mining & Smelting Federal Funding Mr. Jerry Storie (Fiin Flon): Mr. Speaker, my final question to the Minister is given that- Mr. Speaker: Order , please. Ord er. Does the Honourable Member have a question? Mr. Storie: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Would you kindly put your question now? Mr. Storie: The Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufeld) continues to express concern about the lack

Tuesday, October 11, 1988 of federal support for the modernization of Flin Flon. Given that 15 0 people got together to express their - (I nter jection)- concern over the environment, will the- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Storie: -Minister say whether he has met with Mr. Epp or the Minister responsible for the Western Diversification Initiative or the Minister responsible for the Acid Rain Abatement Program to assure the people of Flin Flon and the community surrounding Flin Flon that this project will receive the go ahead, that it will not continue to be part of the election strategy of Mr. Epp? Hon.

Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): This Government is extremely concerned about the welfare of the people of Flin Flon. We are concerned that the agreement between the federal Government and the company and indeed the provincial Government proceed. Again, we cannot negotiate that agreement within this House. We will continue, as I have said earlier, to monitor the negotiations between the Hudson Bay Company and the federal Government. Yes, we have been in contact with the Minister, Jake Epp. We have been in contact with the Minister in charge of Western Diversification.

We will continue to pressure them for an agreement. M PlC Rate Setting Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): My question is to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation (Mr. Cummings). When in Opposition, that Member and his colleagues were very critical of the former Government and the way it handled rate setting at MPI C, levelling charges day after day of political manipulation.

Since the M PlC is almost at the end of its fiscal year and rates are now being discussed within the corporation, what steps is the Minister taking to ensure that his Government will not be involved in any kind of political manipulation; and, in particular, will those rates be subject to approval by the Public Utilities Board? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation): First of all, the Member is correct. The ye ar-end is rapidly approaching and the corporation is in the middle of setting rates for 19 89.

Those rates will be taken to the board where they will be discussed and where the board will have an opportunity to make recommendations to this Government. The legislation still calls for the rate setting in MPI C to be receiving final approval by Cabinet. We are committed to those rates appearing before the Public Utilities Board. There will be ample opportunity for a public review and examination of whether or not those rates have been correctly settled. Mr. Carr: We are glad to hear that answer from the Minister . Kopstein Report Release Mr.

James Carr (Fort Rouge): The Public Utilities and Natural Resources Committee of the Legislature will sit next week to review the 19 87 Annual Report of MPI C. Since it would be productive to analyze past mistakes, in the light of the Government's plans to make sure those mistakes do not recur, I wonder if the Minister intends to release Judge Kopstein's report well in advance of the committee meetings so Members on this side, and indeed all Manitobans, will have a chance to digest it well in advance of the committee hearings. Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation): lt will not be possible to release it in advance of those committee hearings, but I certainly will be releasing it as soon as it is available. Mr. Carr: We understand that the Minister has been in possession of this report for some weeks now. Auto Insurance Competition Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): A final supplementary . When the Minister was in Opposition, he, and indeed his Leader, mused aloud that their Party was in favour of introducing competition in the auto insurance industry in Manitoba.

Now that the Minister is in power, does he intend to introduce such competition in the course of his mandate in Government? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation): Mr. Speaker, the Member chooses to be a little bit footloose with some of the comments that he is reading from old Hansards, because we are firmly on the record as being in favour of public insurance for the automobile industry in this province. The only thing that he forgets is that there is a certain element of competition in automobile insurance; in particular , the heavy trucking and the SREs.

The Bill that was recently introduced regarding ATVs in this province was deliberately left open-ended so that all insurance companies could participate in that liability. Health Care Emergency Services Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): My question is to the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard). Let me start, Mr. Speaker, by saying that we certainly appreciate the need for a coordinated ap proach to review the unprecedented problems that resulted in major dislocations and patient inconvenience at the Health Sciences Centre this past weekend, but the problem is more immediate than that.

There have been reports of patients having been forced to lie on mattresses on the floor, of patients being turned away. According to the Health Sciences Centre Emergency Department Director , the hospital was lucky indeed that there were not any dire emergencies at that time. But luck is not enough. The emergency rooms are still quite busy. 2002

Tuesday, October 11, 1988 1 would ask the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) what immediate procedures have been put in place to ensure that there will not be a repeat performance of last weekend's problems while that ongoing review and coordination is taking place? Hon . Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): The circumstance on Friday was not one which any Minister of Health or inde ed any administrator of a hospital is satisfied with because there was every potential for unsafe patient care when you are into a circumstance like that at the emergency hospital.

I am informed, as of this morning, that the circumstances returned to normal approximately by noon on Saturday, so that other hospitals apparently were able to meet their emergency patient commitment. Now, Mr. Speaker, what has been happening is a growing trend, I guess, in terms of the use of the emergency departments, and particularly in three of the hospitals in Winnipeg, where the number of uses of the emergency department are indeed growin g. That is su bject to a sepa rate discussion amongst the hospitals.

The immediate concern was, first of all, to ident ify exact ly the circumstances which took place leading to Friday's temporary placing of patients at the Health Sciences on mattresses. I cannot offer any sol utions today since the problem has returned to a more normal state. Sec ondly, we have not determined exactly what the circumstances were which led to Friday's circumstance. Of course, that is the reason for the meeting. Mr. Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired. * (14 20) Mr. Speaker: I have two rulings for the House. Hon. Donald Orchar d (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, may I have leave for a non-political statement? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I am coming down with a ruling. SPEAKER'S RULING Mr. Speaker: On October 4, I took under advise ment a point of order raised by the Honour able Member for Churchill respecting alleged unparliamentary language used by the Honourable Minister of Health. The words spoken by the Honourable Minister of Health, referring to the Honourable Member for Churchill , were "does not tell the truth . . . that is not true.

He kn ows it is not true." I have reviewed Hansard with care and have examined relevant precedents and references in the authorities. To allege that a Member has not told the truth or has misled the House is perhaps less than courteous. To allege tha t a Member has done so delibera tely , intentionally or knowingly is unparliamentary.

A 19 77 ruling by Deputy Speaker Gerald Laniel of the House of Commons states the point very clearly, "lt is not conside red unparliamentary to say that a statement is untrue, but it is unparliamentary to say that it is untrue to the knowledge of the Honourable Member making it." I must therefore conclude that the words spoken by the Honourable Minister of Health were unparliamentary. I must therefore call upon the Honourable Minister to withdraw. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): I certainly will abide by your ruling, Mr. Speaker, and withdraw. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the Honourable Minister.

SPEAKER'S RULING Mr. Speaker: I have one more ruling for the House. On October 5, I took under advisement a point of order raised by the Hon ourable Minister of Health alleging that the Honourable Member for Churchill had reflected on the Chair. I have read the relevant sections of Hansard and have examined appropriate references in the authorities. Immediately prior to Orders of the Day, the NDP House Le ader and the Acting Government Ho use Leader ente red into a somewhat lengthy exchange respecting the arrangement of Government business and the attendan ce of Ministers while their Bills are being debated.

The Chair intervened to conclude the exchange and to thank the Honourable Member for Churchill for his assistance and to move the House along to the business of the day. The Honourable Member for Churchill, on being recognized to speak on the adjourned second reading de bate on Bill No. 6, The Fires Prevention Amendment Act, commenced his remarks by saying, "Continuing on the point which I was making previous to your interru ption ... . " These comments were made despite the fact that the previous exchange had been concluded by the Chair and the House had moved on to other business.

Honourable Members may be aware, as stated in Beauchesne, that reflections upon the character or actions of the Speaker may be punished as breaches of privilege. My actions cannot be criticized inci dentally in debate or upon any form of proceeding except by way of a substantive motion. In my opinion, the remarks of the Honourable Member for Churchill were a reflection upon the actions of the Chair. Therefore, I must request the Honourable Member apologize to the House. Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): Certainly my comments were not intended to reflect either on your char acter or your actions as a Speaker.

If you found them 2003

Tuesday, October 11, 1988 offensive, I would be more than pleased to withdraw and apologize immediately. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the Honourable Member for Churchill. Order, please; order. Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I rise to move a motion under Rule 27.

Whereas the unemplo yment rate- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I have already recognized the Honourable Member for Brandon East. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): I wonder if 1 might have leave of the House for a non-political statement. Mr. Speaker: By leave? The Honourable Minister of Health, does he have leave? (Agreed) � Mr. Orchard: Thank you, and I thank my honourable ' friend from Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans). NON-POLITICAL STATEMENT Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Thanksgiving weekend has just passed and, of course, that is a celebration of harvest.

I want to recognize a citizen of growing fame in my constituency from the vil lage of Rola nd. Roland is a community fon dly remembered by many of us because it was the home town of the former occupant of your high office, Mr. Speaker. Over the weekend, as is traditional on Thanks giving weeke nd, there is the Annual Pumpkin Weigh-in . An Honourable Member: Did she win it? Mr. Orchard: The question was asked , "Did she win it?" That is an unkind reflection on the former Speaker of the House. No. • Mr.

Edgar Van Wyck is an 84-y ear-old gentleman in Roland who has been growing giant pumpkins in Manitoba for years and years and years, and this has taken off into a growing competition over the years. Now we have a world pumpkin growing contest for which the weigh-in was formally over the weeken d, the Thanksgiving long weekend. 1 am pleased and proud to indicate to all Ho nourable Members of the House that Mr. Van Wyck placed eighth in the world competition for pumpkin growin g. Now that indeed brings honour to Mr.

Van Wyck himself, and I know all Honourable Members will want to share in the enthusiasm with which we congratulate him; but indeed it puts Roland firmly on the map not only as the home of 4-H but also of large pumpkins. MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPO RTANCE Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr.

Speaker, rise to move a motion under our Rule No. 27: WHE REAS the unemployment rate in this province has risen since the Conservative Government took office and continues to rise; and WHERE AS the policies of the Conservatives are clearly causing an increase in unemployment and a downturn in the provincial economy; and WHE REAS 7,000 more Manitobans are unemployed today than 12 months ago; and WHERE AS the Con se rvative Government is embarking on a return to the acute protracted restraint policies of the Lyon administration; and WHERE AS this government arbitrarily, without proper consultation, has cut funding to agencies and programs that have assisted the unemployed; and WHE REAS the cutbacks in funding to the Winnipeg Community Unemployed Help Centre, the Brandon and area Community Unemplo yed Help Centre, the terminating of the Jobs Fund, the Job Training for Tomorrow Program, and the Workplace Innovation Centre, in particular, will cause further hardship for the unemployed; and WHERE AS risi ng unemplo yment has had a devastating effect on individual Manitobans.

THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED, Mr. Speaker, and I move, se conded by the Member for Logan (Ms. Hemphill), that under Rule 27, the ordinary business of the House be set aside to discuss the matter of urgent public importance, namely, that the Legislature urge the Government to unde rtake direct training and employment programs in cooperation with the private and non-p rofit sectors to alle viate growing unemployment in the province. * (14 30) POINT OF ORDER Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Government House Leader, on a point of order. Hon.

James McCrae (Government House Leader): As I have repeatedly, during the course of this Sessio n, whenever resolutions have been brought in, in the guise of a motion under Rule 27 of our rules, I have raised an objection either by way of point of order or during my argument. I believe you have yet to rule on the form taken by the resolutions that are brought forward by Honourable Members both in the Liberal Party and in the New Democratic Party. Mr.

Speaker, I suggest the form of the motion again today, just on having heard it, I have not had a chance to review it, but I suggest that the form of the motion today is the form of a resolution which is very much like a resolution you might find in Private Members' Hour. I would raise that matter as a point of order at this point. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the Hono urable Government House Leader. He has a point that I have some grave concerns about, and I will be dealing with it in the very, very near future. 2004

Tuesday, October 11, 1988 Before determining whether the- Mr. Jay Cowan (Second Opposition House leader): Perhaps on that point of order. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Churchill, on the same point of order. Mr. Cowan: Yes, on that point of order. The fact that the Government House lead er (Mr. McCrae) has raised that matter on numerous occasions in this House does not give credence to his argument. There is substantive precedent that shows that WHERE ASes have been included in many, many emergency de bate resolutions in the past. To my knowledge -a nd I have researched this, Mr.

Speaker, as you are aware, back to the early 19 00s and will go further if required -t here has never been an emergenc y debate ruled out of order on the matter of it containing WHERE ASes. The Govern ment House leader may have a problem with the format but his concerns are not in any way substantiated by the precedent and the ordinary usage of the emergency debate resolution in this House. So I would suggest that it is ent irely in order and should be dealt with accordingly. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank both Hono urable Members.

Before determining whether the motion meets the requirements of our Rule 27, the Honourable Member for Brandon East has five minutes to state his case for urgency of debate on this matter. A spokesperson for each of the other Parties will also have five minutes to address the position of their respective Parties respecting the urgency of this matter.

Mr. leonard Evans (Brandon East): In my view, it is urgent that debate take place on this matter now in the House inasmuch as only last Friday morning did we receiv e the sta tistics from St atistics Canada indicating a serious deterioration in the unemployment situation in our province. This matter is of significant public importance, Mr. Speaker, to our citizens and to the Members of the legi slature, that all should be given an opportun ity to deba te the matter and pro vid e solutions to help overcome this problem.

The figures that we received from Stats Canada last Friday indicated our unemployment rate was up on a seasonally adjusted basis to 8. 7 percent. last year, it was 7.4 percent at this time; this year, it is 8.7 percent. In actual terms, it also went up substantially, Mr. Speaker. In fact, the seasonally adjusted rate has worsened now three months in a row. July, Manitoba was 7.9 percent; in August, it went up to 8.0 percent. Incidentally, July was up over June. June was 7.4 percent, July 7.9 percent, August 8.0 percent, and now September 8. 7 percent.

I point that out, because this past month the national rate, seasonally adjusted, has gone down . So what we have got in the province is an ominous pattern. Three months in a row of deterioration of unemployment. As a result, from looking at these survey results, we see 7, 000 people out of work in September 19 88 over the level of last year. There are 7,0 00 more people, 7,0 00 more Manitobans unemployed . On an actual basis, in September, there were a total of 43,000 people not workin g. We had fewer people working in the province both on a part-time and on a full-time basis.

You saw a deterioration in both areas. We see the youth unemployment is higher than last year. Last year, we were at 12.2 percent in September; this year, we have gone up to 13 .3 percent. In fact, our youth unemp loyment is higher than the Canadi an average. We are beyond the Canadian average. As a result of this deterioration, something rather significant has happened . We were always either lowest , second or third lowest , never worse than third lowest . Because of last month's figures, we are seen to have slipped to fourth place out of the ten provinces.

In answer to my questions last Friday morning, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) has rejected our suggestion of a reinstitution of the Job Training For Tomorrow Program, a direct job training and employment program. We know we have no Jobs Fund. There does not seem to be any indic ation of employment policies in place, and inde ed , Mr. Speaker, in addition, we have the banks and other agencies forecasting a lower rate of economic growth. The Toronto Dominion Bank has indicated that it will drop to one-half of 1 percent next year which will translate into fewer job opportunities.

The second requirement for an emergency debate is that the matter be of such urgency that it should be dealt wit h immedi ate ly. Mr. Sp eak er, there is no reasonable opportunity to allow for debate in a timely fashion. The debate on the Department of Employment Services and Economic Security Estimates will not come forward for many wee ks. We may never get to them because of the slowne ss of the review of the Estimates. We do not have any motion before the House on which we can debate this. We do not have Finance Estimates in front of us and therefore this is the only option we have for debate.

So I trust that you will rule that this is in order and that the House will agree that we set aside the ordinary business of the House to add ress this important urgent issue. * (14 40) Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, unemployment is always a conce rn to any Government in power or any Party out of power. The Honourable Member, it is his and his Party's credibility when he comes forward tod ay, five months after leaving office, and suggests that the present Government of Manitoba is responsible for unemployment that happens to exist in our province after seven years of NDP business bashing. I am surprised, Mr.

Speaker, that the Honourable Member wou ld come along now and whine and complain about unemployment. lt is obviously a matter that has to preoccupy all Honourable Members and all elected representatives in our province and I believe always does. You do not have to be a Member of the Ho nourable Member's Par ty, I suggest. Also, I understand the information that he is relying on in raising the issue today was available to him on Friday, if I am not mistaken . So on that point he has missed 2005

Tuesday, October 11, 1988 his dead line in terms of bringing the matter forward today; the matter of timeliness is very important. The other matter that really has to be looked at carefully, in terms of the urgency of the debate and the urgency that the Honourable Member seems to be wanting to put forwa rd, is if it is so urgent to the Honourable Member, why then did he not seek the floor during Question Period today? Why then did no Member in his Party seek the floor in Question Period today to ask questions about unemployment in Manitoba? The Honourable Member displays and betrays a shallowness here, Mr.

Speaker, that is disturbing to me and should be disturbing to all Honourable Members and all Manitobans. Not one question today in Question Period. Not one question by the Honourable Member, who supported the Government that imposed the payroll tax on emplo yers across this province, robbing employers and employees of job opportunities right across this province. He raises this issue to castigate the Government which in its very first Budget did what it could to reduce the burden on employers and employees in this province out of the payroll tax.

After spending seven years in offic e, scaring busine sses away from Manitoba and discouraging employment in our province, the Honourable Member has the unmitigated gall to raise this matter in a motion which could have been raised in any Private Members' Hour, Mr. Speaker. The Honourable Member forgets also, when he raises th!:! issue, that in mining and in other primary industries, employment in Manitoba is up. In manufact uring, employment is up. In transportation, communication and utilities, employment is up. In the community business and personal services, employment is up.

The figures reveal the fluctuations in the labour market that might be expected but which do cause concern nonethele ss to any Gover nment in offic e. The Honourable Member raises something that as long as there is any unemployment in our province it is going to be chronic problem. Nobody is going to deny that and we are always going to have our eye on policies and programs that can help alle viate that problem. In deed, our Government did move quickly in its first Budget by removing the payroll tax, something that employers across the province have been complaining about for a good number of years.

Inde ed, it was employers and employees in this province who put the Honourable Member's Government out of office on April 26 and that was for a very good rea son. That was because they were tired of the bungling, the deficit financing, the waste that has caused taxpayers' dollars to go to programs other than programs aimed at assisting employers and employees, to put people to work and to develop our communities and to enrich our lives in this province. The Honourable Member's motion today, Mr.

Speaker, will do nothing in the sense of bringing about solutions to problems that give rise to unemployment, but the Honourable Member does betray in himself and his Party a hypocrisy, I suggest, which comes from being out of office. The Honourable Member opposite should know better, I suggest, to bring in a resolution couched in the terms this one is, calling for certain specific action under the guise of a motion under Rule 27 in this House. Mr.

Speaker, I will argue loudly and for a long period of time, if I had the chance, on the inadeq uacy of this type of motion and the inadmissibility in terms of debate in this House. The Honourable Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan) says that he can give us certain isolated precedents for exceptions to that rule but exceptions do not make the rule. The rules of our place are something that evolve over many years of customs and usage and practice in this place. I think the largest body of practice is that this type of resolution is out of order. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr.

Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Mr. Reg. Alcock (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, this is inde ed a serious matter. lt is a matter that we have been speaking on on every occasion we have had an opportunity to over the last couple of months. We asked questions on it on Friday. I spoke to it as early as my response to the Budget. My Leader has been calling for a mini-budge t to address this very serious issue. At the same time, in discussions with yourself, we have agreed not to use the format that this motion is put in.

On every occasion in the past when there has been a motion of this sort, we have consulted with the Opposition Party and informed them in advance so there could be some consultation on the form and content. That consultation was not undertaken in this case and we await your ruling, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. This is a very serious matter. Order, please. * (14 50) SPEAKER'S RULING Mr.

Speaker: I have reviewed carefully the motion proposed by the Honourable Member for Brandon East and have listened attentively to the remarks of the Honour able Members respecti ng the ne cessity of debating this matter today. I did receive prior notice of tn<> .notion required by our rules. In order for me to rule in favour of such a matter, I must be satisfied that the urgency of debate is so pressing that the public inter est will suffer if it is not taken into immediate consideration by setting aside the regularly schedu led business of the House. There must be no other reasonable opportunities for debate.

I do not believe these conditions have been met. There are other opportunities for debate, in my opinion, when the Estimates of Employment Services and Economic Security are being examined and during the second and third reading de bates on the Main Supply Bill. With respect, therefore, in accordance with our Rules and Practices, I must rule the Honourable Member's motion out of order as a matter of urgent public 2006

Tuesday, October 11, 1988 importance. This does not prevent the Honourable Member from rising this matter as a grievance at the next opportunity , if he so wishes. Whi le I have the opport unity, I would like to point out, as Honourable Mem bers have to the House, my continuing concern ab ou t the format in which this motion was presented, because I believe it contravenes our rules, despite the fact that there are a few precedences to support th is approach. Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Regrettably, Mr. Speak er, I must challenge your ruling. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

The ruling of the Chair has been challenged. Shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained? All those in favour , please say Yea. All those opposed, please say Nay. In my opinion, the Yeas have it. Mr. Leonard Evans: Yeas and nays, Mr. Speaker. • (15 00) Mr. Speaker: Call in the Mem bers. The qu estion before the House is, "Shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained?" All those in favour of the motion will please rise.

A STANDING VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: YEAS Bur re ll, Conn ery, Cummi ngs, Derkach, Downey, Driedger (Emerson), Ducharme, Enns, Filmon, Find lay, Gilleshamm er, Helwer, Manness, McCrae, Mitchelson, Neufeld, Oleson, Orchard, Pankratz, Penner, Praznik, Alcock, Ang us, Carr, Carstairs, Charles, Cheema, Driedger (Niakwa), Evans (F ort Garry), Gaudry, Gray, Lamoureux, Mandrake, Patterson, Roch, Yeo. NAYS Cowan, Do er, Evans (B randon East), Harapiak, Harper, Hemphill, Maloway, Plohman, Storie, Uruski, Wasylycia -Leis. Mr. Clerk, William Remnant: Yeas 36; Nays 11 . Mr.

Speaker: The ru ling of the Chair has been sustained. • (15 10) AD DRESS FOR PAPERS Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I would move, seconded by the Member for Logan (Ms. Hemphill), THA T an Address for Papers do issue, praying for : (

a) copies of all correspondence between the Minist er of Employment Services and Economic Sec urity and the Man itoba Association of Urban Munici palities and the Union of Manitoba Municipalities respecting implementat ion of the one-tier system of social assistance; and (

b) copies of all correspondence between the Mi nister and anti-poverty organiz ations and church groups respecting the implementat ion of a one-tier system of social assistance; and (

c) the current welfare rate structure for each mun icipality of Manitoba. MOTION presented. Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): This motion for Address for Papers is acceptable to the Government. QU ESTION put, MOTION carried. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): I move, seconded by the Honourable Mi n ister of Finance (Mr. Manness), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented. • (15 20) MATTER OF GRIEVANCE Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Prior to going into the debate on the Supply Motion, I would like to exercise my right to engage in a grievance before this House. I rise on a matter of great concern to myself and to my colleagues in the New Democratic Party, namely, the lack of concern by this Government for the working people of Man itoba, partic ularly th ose who are unemployed, particularly the young, untrained, and par ticularly the di sadvantaged. Mr. Speaker , thi s Government seems to lack direction in its employment pol icy. I wo nder if it has any employment policy whatso ever. Mr.

Speaker, you referred, and others referred, to the possible oppo rtun ity to debate th is in the Department of Employment Services, the matters that we have concerning unemployment, concerning lack of concern for working people but, regrettably, I do not think we are going to be able to get to that department because of the procedures in the House, because of the length of time it is taking to go through some of the other departments. I suspect we are going to be running out of ti me in the Estimates debate before we get to the Department of Employment Services.

Unless the Government wants to rearrange the order, we wi ll not have an opportun ity, regrettably, to bring up our concerns. Mr. Speaker, the actions of th is Government have indicated an anti-labour bias on the part of certain 2007

,,, Tuesday, October 11, 1988 Ministers. I refer in particular to the decision to cut back on funding for the Labour Education Centre; I refer to cutbacks regarding the Workplace Innovation Centre; and certainly with regard to the elimination of funding of the Unemployed Help Centres both in Winnipeg and Brandon. We are concerned with unemployment. We think that we need every vehicle possible, every agency available , to help us and help Man itoba ns o vercome problems of unemployment. Cer tai nly, the unemployed help centres did an excellent job i n this respe ct. (The Acting Speaker, Mr.

Neil Gaudry , in the Cha ir.) The Communit y Unemployed Help Centre wro te to the Min ister of Employment Services (Mrs . Oleson) back in June of this year, ind icating that they would like to meet her. They congratulated her on her appoin tmen t and indicated some of the activities that they engaged in. M r. Spea ker, I w ould like to read that letter for Members of the House, which gives you a clear idea of w hat that agen cy does, what it con tributes to the fight against unemployment, what it does to help those who regrett ab ly have to seek unemployment insuran ce.

This is a letter dated June 17, addressed to the Minister and co pies were sent to various people in the Legislature : " On behal f of the Board of Directors of the Community Unemployed Help Centre , I am writing this brief letter of introduc tion to the centre and its servic es. I would also like to take this oppo rtun ity to congratul ate you on y our recent appointmen t as Minister of Employment Services and Econo mic Securi ty. As our organiz ation is funded in part by your dep artmen t, I am also requesti ng the opportunity to meet with you at y our conven ience.

" The C ommunity Unemployed Help Cen t re was incorpo rated in June, 1979 as a non-profi t organization. The centre began operat ing in 1980 and has been in continuous operation since that time . The cen t re provides a range of services to unemployed Manitobans with a particular emphas is on information and advocacy services in respect of unemployment insurance .

" This service was developed to assist unemployment insurance claimants who were having difficulty obtaining unemployment insurance information and benefits , some as a result of the imposition of disqualifications or disentitlements by the Unemployment Insurance Commis sion.

In 1987, the centre recovered in excess of $281,960 in lost U.I. benefits for its clients for that period -( Interjection)- That is true , it is advocacy services-an amount far in excess of its $135,960 budg eted for the same period ; that is better than 2- 1." I go on in the letter: " The cen tre has maintained a cons istent 80 percent to 90 percent success rat e th rough its appeals to the Board of Referees and Umpire . This success rate is inversely proportionate to the success rate of unassisted claimant appeals .

" In add ition to unemploy ment insurance information and advocacy serv ices, the centre assists unemployed Manit obans by refer ring clien ts to other agencies who may assi st the m with problems exacerba ted by unemployment. The centre and its staff further assist individuals in search of employment through referrals to various employment and training programs, and through the exploration of employment alternatives. Many of the centre 's clients tend to be employment disadvantaged , often due to a lack of skills , education and work experience. They tend to remain in the cycle of short-term low paying jobs.

"The Community Unemployed Help Centre also engages in some public education activit ies with respect to unemploymen t insurance and unemployment related issues. The centre provides in the order of 20 to 25 workshops on related topics in any given year for a variety of groups and organizations.

Among these include the United Way of Winnipeg, for its referral agent and union councillors programs ; the Winnipeg Association of Non- Teaching Employees ; National Defence employees for their pre -ret iremen t sem inar ; various unions ; employee associations ; youth group s; immigrant and women 's organizations , and other social service agencies . " The centre employs five full-time staff and is funded primarily by the United Way of Winnipeg and the Province of Manitoba .

Demand for the centre 's services has increased appreciably in each of the last three years , while the number of staff has remained constant. The centre assisted 4,351 individuals in 1987, up from 2,970 in 1985. The centre has enjoyed an excellent relationship with a variety of agencies and organizat ions throughout Manitoba . It is, in part , as a result of these successful relationships that the Commun ity Unemployed Help Centre has continued to thrive . " I trust that this information will be of some benefit to you as you familiarize yourself further with agencies and programs funded by your department.

I look forward to you r reply in regard to our request for a meeting. Sincerely , Neil P. Cohen, Executive Director ." This letter points out quite well what a terrific service this agency has been to Winnipeg and indeed to the people in the Province of Manitoba. They have recaptured in unemployment insurance benefits monies far in excess of grants paid by this Government, by the Province of Manitoba to the agencies. We are in effect earning dollars, if you will, for the Province of Manitoba . For the life of me, I do not know why we would want to stop something as positive as this.

I might add that the success of the Unemployed Help Centre of Winnipeg was observed by a former Chairman of the Unemployment Insurance Commission's Board of Referees . In the Winnipeg Sun of Wednesday, September 28, this person , a gentleman by the name of Cam Mager, who sat on the three-member pane l that judges UIC appeals , in so many words , he is saying , " Low income and immigrant Manitobans will be hardest hit by cutting of funds to the Community Unemployed Help Centre ." This person , as I said , Mr. Cam Mager, is the former Chairman of the Unemployment Insurance Commission 's Board of Referees.

He said , " I think the cutbacks will mean that the underdog will suffer. " *

(1530) He goes on to say, " Teachers get help from the Teachers ' Association , Canada Packers workers get 2008

Tuesday, October 11, 1988 help from their union, but waitresses and such have no one to turn to." It is the poor and a lot of women , a lot of single parents, a lot of women who are trying to struggle and make ends meet, or people among those who do not have anywhere to turn by way of having someone assist them in going back to U.I. to appeal the decision made by that organization." Mr. Mager goes on to say, "The U.I.C. Act is a little on the complicated side and that is how the Community Unemployed Help Centre helps out .

They are pretty knowledgeable about the laws." The fact is that this agency is providing a positive benEifit to the province and particularly to those people. Regrettably, later the Government advised the centre that it was cutting its funding. They received a letter from the Minister indicating that she and her department were no longer going to fund this organization . I will just quote from a letter dated September 28, from Mr. Cohen again, addressed to the Leader of our Party and, I guess, sent to some other people in the province .

He says, "The Government has indicated that funding to the Community Unemployed Help Centre does not fit in with the Government's prioritiBs. These priorities have not been communicated to us and we have not been advised by the Minister as to why funding to our agency does not fit in with the present Government's priorities . As you are aware, the Community Unemployed Help Centre continues to provide a much needed service to this community. We are gravely concerned about the future of our agency and our ability to continue to provide service to those in need.

We are in the process of attempting to hold the Government accountable to us for their decision." This is an excerpt from a letter by Mr. Neil Cohen, Executive Director of the CommunitJ/ Unemployed Help Centre of Winnipeg to Mr. Gary Doer, dated September 28 . The fact is that here we have a very useful organization that was doing a good job , that is doing a good job, whose funding was cut off without any prior notice. They had asked for a meeting to explain to the Minister what they were doing . She did not meet with them but instead they got a letter saying, sorry , no more money.

Thank you very much for your services. An Honourable Member: They got six months' notice. That is what it is. Mr. Leonard Evans: They got six months ' notice, yes; the funding will no longer be approved, effective April 1, 1989. The fact is they got a letter, no previous notice , and so on. They got a letter saying the funding is cut off. If the Minister is getting a little exercised about this matter and wants to debate, I welcome her contribution in the debate after I have concluded . The fact is, this is it.

If the Minister is telling us now that she is prepared to reconsider, that this is just some kind of notice and if they want to come back to her and make the case, maybe she will reconsider, that is fine, but this is not what I gather . From the position that the Government has taken, this is not what I gat her from what the Minister has said and from what I have read in the media. But the interesting point, as I have said, is that the Unemployment Insurance Board of Referees person , a former chairman himself, has said that they have done an excellent job, that they have an exce llent success ratio .

Eighty to 90 percent, I believe, of those that they deal with have had their cases reversed, the decision reversed . I think that is very impor tant, and I say this kind of service is going to become even more important as we have more people unemployed in Manitoba, more people going on to unemployment insurance and possibly more people having difficulty getting assistance for whatever reason. I note the Brandon Centre obtained, since its inception-it has not been going as long as the Winnipeg centre - but the Brandon Centre, since its inception has obtained about nearly $300,000 of benefits for its clients.

The grant it gets, inciden tally, is roughly about $47,800 a· year at the present time, so the grant mon ies have far been superseded by the , benefits. The unemployment insurance monies that the Brandon Centre has achieved for the people of Brandon and Westman, indeed maybe some of these people even live in the Minister's own riding of Gladstone , who have been helped. That would be an interesting thing to find out.

How many people from the riding of Gladstone have been assisted by the Brandon and area Unemployed Help Centre, because I believe about 40 percent of the ir clientele are from the Westman area outside of the City of Brandon. They have served 1,717 people since inception and, as I said, they have an excellen t record of getting monies for these people, getting unemployment insurance benefits to which they are entitled. Of course, the point is that if these people do not get U.1., often they have to resort to welfare. Nobody likes to do that, nobody wants to do that, but this is the other recourse.

You have run out of U.I., and if you have family responsibilities, there are no job opportunities, the job opportunities are becoming less in Manitoba , then what do you do? You go on to welfare, so that we end up paying out more money for welfare. The Government of Manitoba of course shares in this, and shares in it, I might add, in the City of Winnipeg and the City of Brandon where a lot of unemployment is concentrated , where a lot of welfare is concentrated.

The Government of Manitoba picks up 85 percent of the payment made by the City of Winnipeg and the City of Brandon , so a large share is picked up by the province . However, I would observe that in turn the province does cost-share with the federal Government . But nevertheless , a significant portion of the payments of welfare are picked up by the provincial Government. I would say, therefore , that the elimination of this service -I am not sure what will happen to the Winnipeg one. The United Way has seen fit to support it; other organizat ions have seen fit to support it, so perhaps it will carry on.

I am not so optimistic about the Brandon Centre. It is in a smaller city. It has not been established as long and it does not seem to have as much other 2009

Tuesda� October 11, 1988 sources of revenue to call upon, although I believe they are working on that. lt is interesting that the City of Wi nnipeg's Un ited Way has seen fit to continue to support this organization because they think that it is providing a service that is needed. Just as an aside, Mr.

Speaker, I recall that the Winnipeg Community Unemployed Help Centre did an excellent job in taking on the Mulroney Government with regard to the Forget Commission because the federal Government was going to charge the cost of the Forge t Royal Commission looking int o major changes of the unemployment insurance fund, of the unemployment insurance system in Canada, they were going to charge this back to the unemployment insurance fund. The unemployment insurance funds are funds tha t are contrib uted ther e by people who participate in U.l., by workers who pay U.l., by the working people and by the businesses.

They have put the money into this fund and it is just not fair that a Government should come along and say we are going to charge the se people, who happen to be paying into U.l. for the cost of this Forget Commission. They did not ask for it, the workers did not ask for the Forget Commission, but the Government in its wisdom decided to set it up and they were going to charge the U.l. fund, but because of the legal challenge offered by the Winnipeg Community Unemployed Help Centre, the Government decided to back off.

I think that move alone, that legal challenge alone that the Winni peg Centre was prepared to unde rtake was a great service for working people right across Canada who pay into unemployment insurance. As I said earlier on in reading the letter from Mr. Cohen, the Community Help Centre does a great deal of other work in the community in advising people who have problems with unemployment, in assisting other organizations, and so on.

An excel lent organization, very well run and it is a tragedy that the Govern ment in its wisd om has seen fit to give them notice that, as of April 1 of next year, there will be no more funding. * (1 540) lt is interesting that the Winnipeg Sun has made an observation about this and said that we should not be complaining. In its editorial of Tuesday, October 4-1 will just read a bit of this because it is very interesting. lt is entitled "Tories will be Tories.

" "There' s been a lot of huffing and puffing in the last few weeks by outraged tabor types and other left leaners over the fact that our five-month-old Tory Government is acting just like a Tory Government. "After promising up and down that they would balance the budget, the Tories moved in and started slash ing, cutting every thing from the Mani toba Committee on Wife Abuse to the Labor Education Centre and other NDP brainstorms that few people knew existed . "Following the social philosophy . . .

"Well, the Minister of Highways says "hogwash" but I say I am reading an article. lt is not my word, it is an editorial from the Winni peg Sun that I am reading. So I will carry on-t his is the editorial of Tuesday, October 4. "Following the social philosophy they outline time and time again, they began trimming the Community Services budget and making changes, such as deciding to subsidize private day care-a move considered outrageous and heretical in NDP circles. "This Labor Day, ther e was no party at the Legislature -no celebration or concert or even modest little information booths.

The Government felt no obligation to celeb rate labor. "lt even chopped free parking for civil servants. "For some, though, the last straw came last week, when the cuts hit the unemployed, as the Government pulled the financial plug on the Community Unemployed Help Centr e. "Surprise, surprise, surprise. "Tories will be Tories. They are, after all, only following the agenda that the minority of Manitobans who elected them expected them to follow." That is part of an editorial in the Winnipeg Sun.

I am also concerned, not only because of these cuts and there are others-w e did not go in any detail, the Labour Educ ation Centre, and so on. I am very concerned , as are my col leagues in my caucus, regarding the situation of unemployment in the province. The unemployment rate is up, the actual rate is up to 7.9 percent. lt is 1.3 percentage points higher than a year ago. Last year 6.6 percent, this year 7.9 percent. The Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) should note this.

Even the seasonally-adjus ted rate is up because with the seaso nal adjustment you usually have a correction for the cooler months, the winter months, when unemployment tends to be high for seasonal reasons. But the seasonal figure went up again to 8.7. I might refer you to last year around this time, last September, it was 7.4 percent. I appreciate you do not compare year over year with seasonally adjusted. That is really meant to compare one month after month. You have got rid of the seasonal factors through a statistical calculation, so you should really compare one month on another.

If you take this and you look at Manitoba's seasonally adjusted labour unemployment rate, in June of this year it was 7.4 percent, July it went up to 7.9 percent, in August it went up to 8.0 percent and now in September it has gone up to 8. 7 percent. So you have had three months in a row; it is an ominous pattern when you get that. In times past, you have seen the figures go up, but then they will usually correct and they may improve the following month and you get sort of a zigzag pattern, if you have plotted in on a chart. I am suggesting that here you have a clear ind ication of a deterioration.

I kn ow if you compare that with the Canadian situation, this last month we are going against the national trend. Canada did worsen in July and it did worsen in August, but the Canadian figures improved. I guess this is good news for Mr. Mulroney. The fact 2010

Tuesday, October 11, 1988 is the Cana di an figur es improved . The Canadian seasonal adjustment went from 8.0 percent down to 7.8 percent. Manitoba, I am going to repeat for those who are listening and do not have these figures, went from 8.0 percent up to 8. 7 percent. We are well above the Canadian average and this is just incredible. Historically, we have tended to be below the Canadian average. Historically, we have tended to be either lowest , second lo west or third lowest in Canada.

Today, because these figures have gone up, we are now to fourth place out of ten, so relatively we are slipping in terms of our unemployment situation. No longer can we brag that we are among the lowest levels of unemployment in Canada, because we are not. The fact is that you have a figure here, Manitoba 8. 7 percent compared to Canada 7.8 percent. lt is just an incredibly wide spread . 1t is just for those people who study these figures who can tell you that is a significant spread. lt is significant because, as I said, it has worsened for three months in a row.

You can look at figures in years gone by, and we have had business cycles. I am not suggesting we are not subject to busi ness cycles in this province. There are all kinds of factors that affect the economy, that affect the rate of unemployment. I am not suggesting that for one moment. I have been in this House for about 19 years and I have never said that there is only one reason why unemployment gets worse or better. We are part of a national economy.

We are part of an international economy, but when I see the rate of unemployment worsen ing, going against the national trend, then I think we have to, all of us in this Legislature, sit up and take notice. I have looked at these figures over several years and you can see patterns. If you leave the seasonally adjusted alone and just look at the actual figures, you will always get higher rates in the colder months, January, February, even March is high.

Sometimes April is quite high, but usually by May it improved. lt did improve this May, in actual terms, and June- May and June.- (I nterject ion)- ! do not buy the argument that it is the drought. If you look at Alberta, while the drought is hurting, th ere is no question the drought is- An Honourable Member: Alberta does not have a drought. Mr.

Leonard Evans: Listen, tell that to some people in Alberta. lt is not just that we -(In terject ion)- At any rate, the fact is I am not suggesting for a minute that the drought is not playing a role. lt does play a role; of course it does. 1t plays a role but it is not that significant in terms of these figures if you take an analysis of the figur es and take a closer look at them. Putting the rates aside, I do not care which way you slice the cake, the bottom line is that there are 43,000 Manitoba people, men and women, old and young and middle age, who were out of work in September.

That are 7,000 more people than a year ago. lt is rather interesting. 201 1 Last night, the television stations had a bit of a show on the people going for a free meal on Thanksgiving. I think it was CKY-TV showed the Salvation Army, which does an excel lent job in helping people who have for whatever reason nowhere to go and are not being fed for whatever reason. They interviewed, I believe he was a major, I do not know what his title was, but they interviewed a person there with the Salvation Army and he was shaking his head.

He said I do not under stand where all of these young people are coming from; they are here for din ner. We have just got an incred ible increase of people. I would invite you to go and have a look at that TV clip. I am sure you can get it from someone who may have taped that.- (I nterject ion)- He did not say they were farmers, he did not say who they were . He said that there were young people. He could not understand why there were so many people out for a free din ner. They were not sure whether they were going to have enough food to provide a turkey din ner for these people. I say, Mr.

Speaker, I would have liked to have been there to tell the major and say what you are telling us is what Statistics Canada is telling us, what the Labour Force survey-which we just got and incidentally we got it just prior to the beginning of the Session on Friday. We did not have a chance to give the Speaker the one hour notice because we did not have the data to analyze. This was a first occasion. I might mention that we could come up with a motion that we did, asking for emergency debate. • (1 550) Nevertheless, we did ask questions. We did not get very good answers.

The answer we got from the Premier was that he did not care for direct training programs, for direct training and employment programs as we had. In deed , it has been announced in this House that as of June 30, the Job Training for Tomorrow Program, which is an excellent program providing jobs for people of all ages including dis advantaged people, is terminated as of June 30. They are not accepting any more applications. The Premier said this Government did not want to get engaged in make-work projects.

The Minister or the Premier did not know that particular program, Training for Tomorrow, worked with the private sector. The jobs were in the private sec tor not in the Gove rnment.- (I nterje ction) - While the Min ister indic ated, from her seat, it still is. She told us in this House in an ans wer to a que stion I put in Supply- 1 believe we were discussing Capital Supply-tha t you were not accepting applications as of June 30. An Honourable Member: There are people still in the program. Mr.

Leonard Evans: Well, yes, there are people still in the program because it takes several months to go through the program. As of June 30, this Government is not accepting any new applications. The point is, regardless of whether there is one or ten or a hundred or whatever there is in the program, the program is not accepting any more applications. Therefore it is being wound down .- (I nterject ion)- The Minister says she may be introducing a new program.

Tuesday, October 11, 1988 When I asked the Premier questions last Friday, he was very critical of these kinds of programs. He said we do not believe in these "make-work programs." When I asked him dir ect ly whe ther they wou ld reintroduce or whether they would establish a job creation program with the private sector, with the non profit sector, he gave a negative answer. The impression we got is that they would not be going in that way. That is what the Premier (Mr. Filmon) said. I invite you to look at the Hansard for that day, for last Friday.

I say this is one program that has proven very effective, and is only one. I am not saying that you have only one way to fight unemployment, but that is one excellent way, and it helps the small businessman as wel l. lt helps the small business sector. lt helps a lot of non-profit agencies and it has been very, very successfu l, so I think it is a tragedy. My suggestion was and that was included in my question the other day, that the Minister and the Government get on with their senior staff and look at ways and means of bringing in other programs.

If you do not like Training for Tomorrow, look at other programs that you could introduce. The Minister says from her seat they are but that is contrary to what the Premier of this province said on Friday. He gave us the impression that contradicted that particular statement. He contradicted. He said that people had enough of this. Our Government was defeated, we had those kinds of programs and therefore they were not going to proceed with these kinds of programs. That is what the Premier (Mr. Filmon) said. I wish he had said something else, but he and wha t the Minister are saying are two different things.

The Minister and the Premier should get together on what they want to do about this. So not only do we have more people out of work, but we have a lower level of people employed . Usually month-after-month or year-over-year comparisons we have more people working in Manitoba. Now, under this Government, we have fewer people working. Last year in September, we had 504,000 Manitobans working in full-time and part-time jobs. This year we only have 500,000 people working in full-time and part-time jobs. In other words, the actual number of people at work has declined by 4, 000.

As I said, there are fewer working both on a part-time basis as well as a full-time basis. If you look at the youth unemployment, you will find that is higher than last year as well. As I have it here, it is 13 .3 percent for this year compared to 12 .2 percent last year. We have the table here if I can refer to it. Mr. Speaker, this is entirely based on facts. All these numbers that I use are from the official sources of Stats Canada. I invite the Members here to look it up themselves if they wish . The unemployed youth as of September this year was 13 .3. Last year it was only 12 .2.

I do not have the year before with me. If you look at Canada, the Canadian rate is only 11 .5 compared to our 13.3, so the Canadian rate is much lower than Manitoba's. Also, if you look at last year, their rate was 12 perc ent, so they have gone down. The y have improved,

whereas our situation has deteriorated. As I said earlier, we have just slipped to fourth place. So we do not know where this Government is going. They have eliminated the Jobs Fund. I can take these 2012 dif ferent programs and put them in di ffere nt departments as the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) has said. You can do that if you want, but we do not see the evidence of any direct action in terms of job creation. As I said, the major employment program has ceased to receive applications as of June 30.

So, in effect, there is no major employment program now operating where a small businessperson can go and say, hey, I would like to create one or two jobs, is there any assistance for me? Before you could say yes. (l nterject ion)- The fact is that many of these jobs, as I said, were in the private sector and they were very interesting jobs. They were in every kind of occupation you could imagine. At any rate, we will see as time goes on. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair.) Mr. Speaker, I see my light is on. I wonder how much time I have. Four minutes? Okay.

I was saying that not only are the figures bad now, but I want to conclude by referring to the fact that the Toronto Dominion Bank, which engages in forecasting like a lot of other organizations, has come out with a forecast that is substantially below that offered by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) during his Budget Address. The Toronto Dominion Bank says for Manitoba it will be only one-half of 1 percent next year. That means a lower economic rate of growth translates itself into a lower level of job creation.

So I say when you look at these figures, when you look at the forecast, all in all, this Government in my judgment, should be getting busy. They should be bringing its research people together and looking at ways and means to do something to offset the situation. The di ffi culty we have in Manitoba is tha t our economy, which has been relatively stable and proceeds at a relatively slow pace, is small and sometimes it is not strong enough. We need every lever that we can possibly use in this province to help the private sector and the non-profit sector to create jobs. Hon.

Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Lever borrowing is gone. Mr. Leonard Evans: The Minister of Finance says lever borrowing is gone. But I would like to remind him he gave up mo ney with CPR, he gave up mo ney with International Nickel, and I say you are not getting - (I nterjection)- You could have had the same tax structure as the Province of Saskatchewan did with diesel fuel. You gave that up, you could have used that money alone to help the small private sector. At any rate, what we are going to see regrettably is a worsening situation this winter.

We are going to have fewer people working, we are going to have more people out of work and it is partly because of the policies of this Government. I am particularly concerned -to use one specific example that I might refer to before I sit down -o f what is happening in Flin Flon because here, specifically, there are a large number of jobs at stake. There are over 2,0 00 Manitobans directly working and another 1, 500 Manitobans in indirect jobs because of Hudson Bay Mining. They are still not given any answer

Tuesday, October 11, 1988 by the federal and provincial Governments together as to what is going to happen with regard to the funding of the $ 13 0 million that is required for pollution control equi pment. I trust they are not being used as political pawns in the federal elec tion. I think that not only the company but the entire workforce, the entire town, demands an an swer and demands an answer soon. So I wou ld take this opp ortu nit y to urge the Government, to urge that Minister to get on with it, to get a hold of Mr.

Epp, or whoever he has to get hold of in the federal Government, to get an early decision on this matter. I would urge this Government to indicate to the company that it is prepared to be part of the solution and not part of the problem. Mr. Speaker, while there may be some who may not think that this is a serious matter, I suggest to you and I am going on record now-f or us to all be alerted as to what is going to happen in the months ahead, and particularly this winter.

You may have the odd reversal, the odd month, but we have seen a pattern that is ominous, that does not spell well for the futur e of our people. I appreciate the oppor tunity of exercising my right to speak on this grievance. 1t is a very important matter and I trust that I have gotten through to some of the Ministers who may wish to rethink their position in this matter. Thank you. * (16 00) MO TION presen ted and carried and the Hous e resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supp ly to be granted to He r Maj esty , with the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr.

Praznik) in the Chair for the Department of Community Services; and the Honourable Member for La Verend rye (Mr. Pankratz) in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture. CON CU RRENT COMMITT EES OF SUP PLY SUPPLY-C OMM UNITY SERVICES * (16 20) The Actin g Ch airma n, Mr. Darren Praznik: The committee will come to order. My apologies, I did not realize that I was beginning the Session. I thought I was replacing the Chairman. The committee is now in order. I believe we are on line 4.(b)

(3) Maintenance of Children. Hon. Charlotte Ol eso n (Minister of Community Services): I have some material to table at the request of the Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock). He requested it when last we met. No. 1 was the Service and Administration deficit surplus as reported in the financial statements of each of the eight Child and Family Service agencies for the years'85, '86, '87. No. 2, the same information for Child Maintenance budgets, and the same for Prevention Grants. No. 4, the numbers of children in Pay Care, total numbers for'84, '85, '86, '87.

No. 5, child abuse cases'84,'85, '86, '87; that is child 2013 abuse cases -s exual abuse and physical abuse. No. 6, number of locked beds in Manitoba by location and current occupancy. No. ?, longest stay in a locked facility in Manitoba, number of similar locked child welfare beds in Saskatchewan, I believe the Member was asking for. Also, No. 8, the distribution of Family Support Service Grants. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Praznik): Shall this line pass? Ms.

Avis Gray (EIIice): A few questions in this area, could the Minister tell us, the parent child centres, are they funded in this line or do individual child and family service agencies provide funding to these centres? Mrs. Oleson: Some of the agencies provide funding through their grants. Ms.

Gray: Has the Minister been approached at all by the parent child centres in regard to their concern about instability in fu nding, that sometimes they are funded on any given year by a child and family services agency, but they have difficulties with this method of funding and would like to be part of funding on a yearly basis, a commitment from the Department of Community Services? Is the Minister aware of this or has she had any meetings with the board of the parent child centres? Mrs. Oleson: They were originally funded by Education, I am told, and I have had letters expressing concern .

I have a meeting set up for later this month to meet with them on the subject. Ms. Gray: Another project which has come to my attention, and I am sure to the Minister's as well, is Project Opikihiwewin where we have a group that has been initiated by parents who provide support services for the parents for the Native children who are placed in non-Na tive homes. This particular group has been funded primarily through the United Church of Canada but the y have asked for some funding from the Department of Community Services.

Could the Minister, first of all, tell us what she feels the role of the Communi ty Ser vices Depar tment is in suppor ting families where Native children have been adopted into non-Na tive families a number of years ago, before the policy change, and could the Minister explain what her department's position is on providing ongoing support in regard to these cross-cultural adoptions? Mrs. Oleson: I met with that particular group within the last few wee ks.

I cannot indicate right now just exactly when it was but I met with them. lt was very interesting to hear what they had to say about the objectives and the role that their organization is playing in helping people, parti cu larly wi thin the City of Winnipeg, but in some other areas as well with the problems faced by parents and children who have adopted Native children. And as the Member indicated, they were funded and assisted by the United Church of Canada who is really wanting to get out of that because they feel they can no longer afford it and they want to, I guess, do other things with their funds.

The membership, the board indicated to me their desire to

Tuesday, October 11, 1988 continue their programs of course. I have undertaken and my department has undertaken to review this. lt is under active consider ation of whether or not to fund them. I do believe they do play a very important role in the lives of the Native children who have been adopted by non-Na tive parents. Ms.

Gray: Could the Minister tell us, does she feel she has mentioned the important role this group would play-t hat there is a role in fact for the Department of Community Services to see that some dollars would go to an organization such as this so that their programs and the objectiv es of the board could be met and their work could be contin ued? Mrs. Oleson: As I indicated to the Member in the previous answer, we are actively considering whether or not we could help them. By that, I am not saying that they are not doing an important job.

The department has not funded them before so we have to, of course, look at where we would get the dollars to fund them. That will have to be taken into conside ration when we are looking at funding them. There probably is a role for Community Services in that. Just to what extent and how much in the line of resources we can dedicate to that, I am not quite certain at this time because it is still under conside ration. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister tell us, has this project, the board Members of this project, given the Minister an indication as to what type of dollars they would be asking for from the Government?

Mrs. Oleson: Yes, they have. Ms . Gray: Could the Min ister tell us what the approximate amount of dollars is that this group has reque sted? Mrs. Oleson: The minimum that they feel they could manage is almo st $66,000 and the maxi mum is approximately $1 50,000.00. Those are sort of the figures they have indicated. As I had said before, we still are considering that. Ms. Gray: Another community group which has had some ties with the child welfare system and I understand has written to the Minister and perhaps even met with the Minister is the care centre for Native youth.

Could the Minister tell us if this project has ever been funded by her Department of Community Services? Mrs. Oleson: No, it has not. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister indicate, has the Care Centr e asked for funding from the Department of Community Services and is this department in any type of negotiations with this service? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Acting Chairman, the staff have been meeting with the people from that particular agency on several occasions and identif ying their needs. I have not met with them personally but I see no reason why I will not when I get time.

What the staff are waiting for, for the consider ation of funding, is that the staff need a financial audit and there also needs to be a board of directors put in place. Presently that is lacking and is one of the reasons there is a hold up. They will be consid ered if they provide that inf ormation. I understand there was a meeting cancelled last week that was to be held with Ms. Lafrenier e who is the head of that organization, and I do not know whether that is going to be rescheduled or not.

The department is working with them to identify their needs but has to have, of course, the proper information in place before they the request can be considered . I should add to the Member that there is extra funding being given this year for youth for emergency services to Ma Mawi Centre so that will help that situation somewhat. Ms. Gray: Mr. Acting Chairperson, the extra dollars given to Ma Mawi, just to clarify, those dollars though certainly would not be available to the children in which the Care Centre are providing service for. Correct? Mrs. Oleson: Some of it could be available to that group. Ms.

Gray: Could the Minister tell us how those funds would be available to the Care Centre and are they aware of this? Mrs. Oleson: I meant that they could be available to the children, not to the particular centre per se, but they could be available to the clients of that centre. Ms. Gray: Mr. Acting Chairperson, when the Minister says that they have asked for a financial audit, would she explain what exactly she has asked for from the Care Centre? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman, before the department can enter into funding for any group we need to know their financial standing.

We need to know if there is a deficit, how they have spent their funds. The problem with this group is there is no board so there needs to be some method of accountability that needs to be put in place. Before the Government can authorize funds to be given to any particular group, you have to some mechanism in place for accountability. Ms.

Gray: Again to clarify from the Minister, first of all, is the Minister aware that in order to obtain some of their funding the Care Centre had used sponsorship from the Childr en's Home of Winnip eg, I understand, to receive some of their dollars from other sources because they were a new formed organization. So I ask, for some of those dollars under the auspices or the sponsorship of the Children's Home of Winnipeg, I am wondering if the Minister wou ld consider that in giving funding.

Again to clarify, what I am asking in regard to financial audit, has the Minister's department asked for an audited statement of the finances of the agency? Mrs. Oleson: I understand what the Member is referring to with the money through the Children's Home. The Core Area Initiative funds flowed through the Children' s Home of Winnipeg and there are a number of issues that need to be clarified from that particular group. 2014

Tuesday, October 11, 1988 What we want is a statement of what funding they received and how they have spent it and then we could consider whether or not we will be able to fund them. * (16 30) Ms . Gray: Could the Minister tell us has this agency or group, the care centre, have they said that they are able to provide an audited financial statement for the department? Mrs . Oleson: Yes, I understand they are able to. They are wor king on it and they will be able to provide it later. Ms .

Gray: Could the Minister tell us, with groups such as this-a nd the one thing about the care centre is that particular group happens to provide a very specific type of service to a very specific clientele in a particular part of Winnipeg and they have been rather uniqu e in terms of providing bail supervision to young Native youth and also providing recreational and educational opportunities to youth.

This centre, as wel l, has been able to have some successes partly because of the fact that they utilize Native counsellors so that the children or youth of the area seem to readily cong regate, shall I say, at this centre and see it as a haven sometimes.

In fact, Child and Family Services staff in the central area have certainly said that this project is one of a kind and does provide a very specific need . 1 am wondering if the Minister sees, as part of her department's role, through the Directorate or through other parts of her department, rather than just to say to this agency, you need a board of directors, to actually work with the care centre and actually assist them in how to go about setting up a board and really helping them out as far as what is required . Mrs .

Oleson: Staff are actively working with the group, as I indicated before, and have met with them several times and are assisting them, or attempting to assist them, with the very thing that the Member is saying, setting up a board of directors and so forth. They work primarily with young offenders, so this has some implication perhaps for the Attorney-Gener al's (Mr.

McCrae) department also, so that is one thing that we were really looking at as wel l. 1 am certainly not disputing that they help people. lt is just that in the process of decision-making with regard to funding we have to take certain things under consideration to make sure that they are a bona fide group. As I said, the staff is working with them, attempting to help them set up their board of directors and identify what their funding needs are. Ms .

Gray: The Min ister mentioned the Attorne y General's department and certainly over the past couple of years there seemed to be some confusion or joint jurisdiction as to where this particular centre should be seeking fund ing. The Co rrect ions area or the Attorney-General, as it now is housed with, or the Community Services, could the Minister indicate if at least, in terms of seek ing funding from a department, has it been decided that Community Services is the department the agencies should be working with and not the Attorney-General 's department? Mrs .

Oleson: lt may, after we finish talking to them and negotia ting with them, turn out tha t both departments may fund them. lt has to be coordinated. Of course, before, when Community Services held the Corrections department as wel l, it was all working with the same department. But, no, we want to have a coordinated approach. No matter who funds them, we still need this in formation. We still need a statement from them and they still need the board of directors. Ms . Gray: Certainly I do not have a problem with the notion that there needs to be accountability and a board of directors.

My concern is that we hope that the department is being proactive in assisting the group such as this to actually actively look at how to establish and set up a board. Just one further question on this particular centre, is the Attorney-General 's department also involved in negotiations with Community Services staff with this agency, or is Community Services taking the lead role at this moment? Mrs. Oleson: The two departments are working together on it. Ther e is input from the Attorne y General 's department. Ms . Gray: A question in relation to child welfare and children, immensely handicapped children.

I understand that in southwestern Manitoba or the Brandon area that there was a move by ACL of Winnip eg and they had entered into some negotiations with Child and Family Services of Western Manitoba in regard to setting up a community residence for children under 18, for young children who have mental handicaps. I believe some of those children are in St. Amant. The Minister, is she aware of this project and does she have any update information as to the status of this community residenc e? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, there are discussions going on, so it is under consideration. lt is in respect to three children from St.

Amant. Ms . Gray: Who would the make the decision as to whether this community residence would be a go? Whose budget would the dollars come out of? Mrs. Oleson: Western Manitoba Child and Family Services. Ms . Gray: Could the Minister indicate to us, has Child and Family Services requested those types of dollars? Is it in their specific budget for this year? Mrs . Oleson: lt is within the special rates budget of the agency and they would have to make the decision of whether or not they could fit it into their budget, but it is part of the ongoing work of the agency. Ms .

Gray: Could the Minister tell us, has she had any communications from Child and Family Services of 2015

Tuesday, October 11, 1988 Western Man itoba as to whether they are going to go ahead with this project this fiscal year? Mrs. Oleson: They are st ill in discussion with ACL, so I have not had an indication for sure whether they are going to go ahead with it. Ms. Gray: Is Children Special Services involved with these negotiations at all? Mrs . Oleson: Yes, th ey are. * (1 640) The Acting Chairman (Mr. Praznik): Shall the line pass? Ms. Gray: I may have some further questions on that under Childr en's Special Services. Just going back again to the care centre.

This audited statement, does the Minister know, has the care centre l mentioned as to what the cost would be of getting an ' audited financial statement? Mrs. Oleson: No, they have not indicated what the cost would be and have not communicated whether or not that would be a problem as I unde rstand. Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Just a follow up question on both of those external agencies. Could the Minister indic ate or give us an approximate time frame when she expects to make a decision with respect to funding for Project Opikih iwawin and the care centre for Native youth? Mrs.

Oleson: Project Opikihiwewin, probably a decision will be made fairly soon on that one. The care centre may take a little longer because of the information that we need and negotiations are still going on. So I really could not give the Member a definite time frame. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Praznik): Shall the line pass? � We are now on line 4.( b)

(4) External Agencies, ' $25,368, 10 0- pass. We are now on line 4.(c)

(1) Seven Oaks Youth Centre, Salaries. Shall the line pass? Ms. Gray: I apologize if I am repetitive to the questions the Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) asked the other day. Could the Minister indic ate exactly how many spaces or beds are at the Seven Oaks Centre and what the occupancy rate is? Mrs. Oleson: lt is licensed for 50. The occupancy on Friday was 42. Ms . Gray: There has been , over the last few years, concern expressed about overcrowding at the Seven Oaks Centr e. Could the Minister indicate if that is still a perennial problem and, if so, what steps have been taken to rectify that? Mrs .

Oleson: We were attempting to downsi ze it to 32. 11 is licensed for 60-66, sorry- according to the 201 6 fire regulations. As I ind icated presently, we are trying to downs ize it and it should be at 32 within the next while. Ms. Gray: Does the Minister have information as to what is the average length of stay at the Seven Oaks Centre? Mrs. Oleson: We could get that information for the Member. I might remind the Member that we did go into a fairly lengthy discussion of this with the Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock). Ms . Gray: I thank the Minister.

I did read the Hansard the other day so I was aware of the discussions. The Minister has indicated that she will get us the information on the average length of stay. In regard to staff, who provide services at the Seven Oaks Centre, what is the pr ofessional background or what type of academic qual ifications or training is required for the professional background or what type of acad emic qualifications or training is required for the professional staff who work there? Mrs. Oleson: There is a range of experience, as I unde rstand, of staff there.

There are some who have Grade 12 and related experience, some are in the process of studying to receive upgrading in related field. So most have a fair amount of related experience. There is, as I indicated, a variety of experience amongst the staff at that centre. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister tell us, do we hire social workers at this centre who provide counselling for these youths? Do we hire psychologists who work with the youths? Mrs. Oleson: We have people who are classed as juven ile counsellors. As I understand also, though, that the children tha t are there have caseworkers from the agencies.

So they will have those people to counsel them as wel l. Ms. Gray: With the recent need for education at, shall we say, small institutions in regard to health in general and, in particular, the need for education in the area of AID S and other STD, could the Minister indicate if any of that teaching or any procedures have been put in place at the Seven Oaks Centre in regard to sexually transmitted disease or/and AIDS. Mrs. Oleson: There is a nurse on staff and then there is a requirement to training of staff on those subjects and there is a manual procedure in pl ace to answer those que stions. Ms.

Gray: Who provides the training for the staff? Mrs. Oleson: If it is medical, it is the nursing staff. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister tell us how many nurses are in staff and are these nurses RNs or PNs or RPNs?

Tuesday, October 11, 1988 Mrs . Oleson: There is one nurse who is both an RN and an RPN, and then there is a sessional physician who visits five days a week. Ms . Gray: Could the Minister indicate to us where in the system would the nursing staff receive their training or support in regard to these health issues? Mrs . Oleson: From Manitoba Health. Ms . Gray: Manitoba Health is a big department. Could she be more specific? Mrs . Oleson: The medical officer for health for that area with that training. Ms .

Gray: The Minister is ind icating that the medical officer for health in Winnipeg North region who would provide that trai ning and would work closely with the Seven Oaks Centre? Mrs. Oleson: There is a close association with a doctor in Corrections and also the health officer as I indicated from that region assists. Also Dr. Fast, as the Member knows, is the communicable diseases expert in the province, works with him as well. * (16 50) Ms . Gray: Would it be the Department of Healt h, then, that would in itia te the esta blis hment of va rious procedures and policies in regard to STD and AID S? Mrs .

Oleson: They might initiate it, but it also could be initiated at our request, at this department's request. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Praznik): Shall the line pass? Pass. 4.(c)

(2) Other Expenditur es $29 0,10 0- pass. We now move on to line 4.(d)( 1) Child Day Care: Salaries $1, 341,10 0.00. Shall the line pass? Does the Member wish to speak to it? Ms . Gray: I am wondering if the Minister could begin by telli ng us, in regard to the new directions that her Government is taking in regard to child day care and in regard to the task force, some specific questions on the task force. Has the task force met yet and is there a time frame with which they have been asked to complete their work? Mrs . Oleson: They have, I believe, met individually and my staff have certainly met with the chairperson. I am meeting with them tomorrow, and the time frame for

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-1-54
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 1st hansardpdf 54.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	330cac829e78a91bafa354bfca94bac2ddd21466

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