PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, HAY 3, 1977

:May 3, 1977 Tape 2081 PK - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Hr. Speaker in the Chair. l'1R. SPEAKER: Order, please~ PRESENTING PETITIONS HR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Burin-Placentia West. HR. P. CANNING: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition from some 130 tenants of houses in the housing area in Marystown, and the houses are owned by, leased Labrador Housing Corporation. the Newfoundland and Mr. Speaker, the prayer of the petition in brief is that these people object to a raise or two raises comi~g within the same year. The rates of the raises are between 25 per cent and 30 per cent.

As of May 1, the houses, according to their type, some bungalows with basements and duplex houses~their rent was raised between $25 and $30 rer month. Again in September there is another further raise of $20 per unit; between $27 and $30 on May 1, and a further raise of $20 on September 1.' May 1, September 1, within four or five months the raise will be between 25 per cent and 30 per cent or a little over 30 percent. The tenants object to the raise.

They wrote the Anti-Inflation Board, and the advice that they got back from them was that they should refer their case to the government of this Province, which I now present to the House for consideration. Mr. Speaker, the amount or the raise seems a bit brutal, 30 per cent in one year, and the petitioners claim that, of course, it is far above t~e Anti-Inflation Board's regulations. Mr. Speaker, those tenants have my unqualified support, and I trust that I will have the support of both sides of this House. Mr. Speaker, there is no need of my even stating this will be a hardship on those people.

They are people with, I suppose, average incomes, but with the high cost of living today, everything rising, continuing to rise,I am certainly sympathetic towards this group. Mr. Speaker, I am hoping that the government ~•ill gi-.'e it consideration, immediate consiceration, because 5818

Hay 3, 1977 Tape 2081 PK - 2 HR. CA.."lliiNG: ~vi thin the 1e tter that I received~and wj_ thtn the petition, it appears that they are prepared to accept the first raise, the one that has already been paid on the 1st. of May, but they ask that the government - / 5819

May 3, 1977 Tape 2082 PK - 1 Mr. Canning: or the department concerned, and the government would give their consideration in looking into this matter and perhaps prevent this second raise which goes on the 1st. of September. Like I said there is no need of explaining to the House that this is pretty high coming within one year. HR. HURPh"'Y : Would you mind telling me,please,the monthly charge for these apartments( I want to compare it with Churchill Square Apartments. Is the hon. member aware -you know, he talks about the increases, but I was wondering what the actual monthly - :1R.

NOLAN: It depends on the apartments~whether it is a one bedroom or a two bedroom. HR. MURPHY: Yes, I am just wondering,'John'. I just waYct to get a comparison. MR. CANNING: MR. MHRPHY: MR. CANNING: They do not give the total per month. I see. They say the raise increase effect May 1, is $27, and another $20 on September 1, and they consider this bet1.reen 25 per cent and 30 per cent of a raise.

I think in some cases it dEpends on the type of house; you have a bungalow with a basement at one charge, and then you have duplex at anothert and I am not quite certain but they co~ld have a two storey house, a single unit two storey. MR. MURPHY: I will check with the Minister for Municipal Affairs and Housing an~vay. HR. CA...\INING : The figures given to me some months ago wren they got this notice, it appeared to me that it was even over 30 per cent, I think, roughtly 34 per cent or 35 per cent for the year. MR. MURPHY: They have had about three raises in Churchill Square in the past year and a half. HR.

CA.i'miNG: I do not think it is in accorcance 1vith the Anti-Inflation Board. And I am sure that the Premier will give it 5820

Hay 3, 1977 Tape 2082 PK- 2 Hr. Canning: his sympathy, because he freely accepted the inflationary measures that were placed on us despite the fact that we are poor and our cost of living is higher. He freely and willingly accepted them immediately, and told tae Prime Xinister of Canada that he was going to go along with him. But I am sure now when the regulations of tbe Anti-Inflation Board are broken~or the rules as laid down by the Anti-Inflation Board, I am sure that he will be considerat~ tmvards those people and intercede on their behalf. Mr.

Speaker, I give this petition my unqualified support and ask that it be placed on tpe table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. S. A. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I give the petition presented by my hon. friend, the member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Canning) my unqualified support, Sir. I have no hesitation at all in supporting the prayer of the petition on behalf of the hon. member's constituents who are complaining about the exorbitant increase in rents, in apartments rented from the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation in Marystown.

Mr. Speaker, this raises the matter again of whether or not Newfoundland and Labrador Housing should come under the Newfoundland Tenancies Board. The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing is nodding his approval. I do not know whether the governmertt has it in mind. MR. DINN: l~e are having a look at it. MR. NEARY: The minister says they are having a look at it. Well it is long overdue, Hr. Speaker, that the people who live in apartments and houses rented from the St. John's Housing Authoritj' ~ the St.

John's Rousing Corporation , and the Newfound!and and Labrador Housi'Q.g Corporation, \vhen they have a grievance they have no recourse to their grievance except to appeal directly to the House of Assembly. They cannot take their grievance to the Ne•;vfoundland Tenancies Board 1 the same as every other tenant in this 5821.

May 3, 1977 Tape 2082 PK - 3 Mr. Neary: Province. The Newfoundland and Labrador Housing,in case hon. IUembers do not remember,are exempted from being scrutinized by the Newfoundland Tenancies Board. And as fat as the ~\nti-Inflation Board is concerned, Sir, well all erown corporations in all the provinces unless, unless, Mr. Speaker, and this is a very big unless, unless the government decided to place the Crown corporation by mutual agreement under the Anti-Inflation Board then it is automatically exempt from the ru1es and regulations of the Anti-Inflation Board.

That is unfortunate, because in this Province,! think, the government elected to keep all Crown corporations, government agencies outside the terms of reference of the Anti-Inflation Board. AN HON • MEMBER: That is not true. MR . NEARY : So therefore the onus of - yes, Sir, that is true - the onus of responsibility then is on the government itself. The government really then takes the place of the Anti-Inflation Board in this Province. SOME HON . MEMBERS : In rents. 5822

May 3, 1977 Tape No. 2083 NM- 1 ~m.. NEARY: Not only in rents, in other things. The Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities is outside the AIB. They take the place of the Anti-Inflation Board in this Province. So the government really takes the place of the Anti-Inflation Board. But where Crown corporations are exempt from the terms of reference of the Anti-Inflation Board,they are expected to live up to the spirit of the increases that are allowed under the rules and regulations laid down by the Anti-Inflation Board, which in this case would be around eight per cent.

So as my hon. friend said, the peple are not objecting to the first increase and they are probably not objecting so much to the second increase. But what they are objecting to is the thirty per cent increase. The ~vo increases should not amount to any more than half that, fifteen per cent, when in actual fact the government, the minister~ theNewfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation have decided to sock it to the tenants in these apartments by adding an additional thirty per cent to their rent in a very short period. And it does not make any difference - Mr.

Speaker, I heard one of the minister's say, "Well how much do they pay in Marystown compared to Churchill Square?" ~vhat difference does that make? They are getting thirty per cent added on to their rent in ~~rystown which is upsetting their budget procedure, MR. MURPHY: MR. NEARY: Thirty per cent on $100 is not as much $200. Well it does not make any difference, Sir. The people ~vho live in these apartments have adjusted to a certa"in way of 'life. ~. MURPh"Y : I agree. MR. NEARY: And if you add on thirty per cent over a matter of a 5823

May 3, 1977 Tape No. 2083 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: period of a few months you are going to upset the whole routine,

Whereas the people over in Churchill Square may be paying a little more but they have adjusted to it. That is their way of life. MR. MURPHY: But they are mostly retired people. I think everybody understands that. MR. NEARY: Well I do not know what they are, Sir. They are not mostly retired people. I lived over there myself one time, MR. MURPHY: I know but you were retired sure years ago, MR. NEARY: I would not consider myself - MR. MURPHY: Retired from work~I mean now. MR. NEARY: - to be retired, not yet anyway, But, Mr.

Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition and I do hope that the minister and the government ~~ill reconsider this matter and roll back these exhorbitant increases in rent to a more realistic figure. SOME HON, MEMBERS : Hear! Hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition, MR. ROBERTS: ~x. Speaker, in the absence of the minister, who is once again conspicuous by his reluctance to speak on a matter that falls within his jurisdiction, perhaps I could say a word or t:Y1o in support of the petition. MR~ NOLAN: Who is the minister? HR. ROBERTS: The Minister of Municipal Affairs is the minister responsible.

MR. NOLAN: He is right there. MR. ROBERTS: I know, I said1 "In the absence." I know he is in the House,but he is absent he is here in - ~. LUSH: He is mute, '1R. ROBERTS: He is mute. That is the word I wanted, I thank my friend, .I / 5824

May 3, 1977 Tape No. 2083 NM- 3 ~. ROBERTS: Nr. Speaker, the prayer of the petition is I think straightforward and I think it ought to commend itself to the powers that be and I think it ought to be granted. I agree that these Cro~vn agencies ought to be brought under the provisions of the Landlord and Tenant Act.

It is quite anomalous that the government are prepared to nut all the private landlords in this Province under legislation that sets forth their rights and their obligations and protects the tenants• rights, but is not willing to do the same for itself despite the fact that the government are one of the largest landlords in this Province and in many instances the government are commercial landlords. The St.

John's Housing Corporation may have begun as a development body but it is in nm.; in most ~.;ays a commercial operation and there is no reason why they ought not to be subject to exactly the same rules as Your Honour would be if Your Honour decided to go into the rental business. But a more important point is the way in which the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation is runtand here I think the minister has something for which the minister must ans~~er and has not answered in the last two or three months despite the fact the matter has been raised in the House on a number of occasions.

The corporation have advanced as their justification for these raises the fact that their costs have gone up. Now the minister has not had the courage to do that, nor has he had the courtesy even to reply to a letter which I sent to him some time ago about Marystmm, He is either too busy or too contemptuous of the business of the House to answer a letter which was sent to him. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must point out to the hon. Leader of the Opposition the requirement to confine his remarks to comment on the petition and support thereof but to avoid debate. 5825

Nay 3, 1977 Tape No. 2083 MR . ROBERTS: Thank you, Your Honour. AN RON. MEMBER: Try to be decent. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, I would like to be decen,t and I ~dsh the minister ~vould be decent too. and answering one's mail is a decent thing to do. NM - 4 Mr. Speaker, the fact rematns that the Corporation have not advanced to the tenants, have not given the tenants any explanations or any justifications of it. The Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation is another of these agencies that operates as a law onto itself. It may or may not answer to the minister. I know it does in the formal sense.

It may or may not in any effective sense. It has made no effort to tell these tenants why their rents must go up or whether the costs are too high or not. We had a long disc.ussicn in support of some petitions which came from Stephenville earlier in this session where I 5826

7-1ay 3,1977 ~fR. ROBERTS: Tape 2084 AH-1 t•dnk there 1-1as considerable matter led forHard 1 considerable evidence led fon-rard to indicate that the Housing Corporation 1-.ras 9eing less than candid in its dealings with the oeople who live in those particular units which are located on the Famon comulex, and the minister does nothing about it. Hell I am here to suggest, ~-fr. Speaker, that the uetition is a reasonable one. I think that these people have a right to expect that they Hill not have their rents raised rvithout explanation or without shown cause.

They also have a ri~ht that their rents lvill not be raised quite as auickly.

If any private landlord treated his tenants the way in which the goverment through the Housing Corporation treat their tenants there 'l:vould be strong speechs in the House, there 1vould be near riots, and I am sure that the Open Lines '"ould be humming 'vith indignation from the same government members - t~e same ministers 1vho noP sit callously by and do nothi~g at all to alleviate the situation ~vhich exists in Marystown anri in Stephenville and in a number of other areas throughout this Province~· I support the petition, Sir, I hope the minister will respond.

I hope he 1vill take some positive action and I hope that he 1vill satisfy what I believe to be a reasonable request made by these petitioners. ~. SPEAKER: MR. NOLA."l': petition as The hon. member for Conception Bay South. Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the prayer of the submitted by a number of people in l-~arystown, signed by approximatelv 140 names and an increase of t"~>renty-fi ve to thirty per cent. Hhat we are getting into here with the ~Tewfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, Mr. Speaker, is that the government is really into the retail or the rental business.

For example, we have petitions time and time again here in this House on behalf of the people for the situation regarding the power increases,.And while 1-1e attack the ~·1e~vfoundland Light and Pouer

!'':ay 3' 19 77 Tape 2084 AH-2 HR. ~:OLA..\1' : the fact is , if there is fault, if there is, we have to look at Ne1-1foundland and Labrador Hydro. '1m·r 111e are told that this is going to go before the Pu~lic Utilities Commission. There is no reason in God's -vrorld ,,•hy the ~Tewfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation should not have to apnear before soEe such board or commission before they are permitted to adiust their rents up t-.:·7enty-five or thirty per cent. ~ow hmv did this increase come about? Did Mr.

Vivian,in his capacity of Chairman of the Ne1vfoundland and Labrador Corporation,heartlessly and callously decide 11 Ah,He are going to slap another twenty-five or thirty per cent onto these people." No, that did not happen. The name of the game, Hr. Speaker, and here is rmv it ~vorks, is as follm•7S:

(1) The various departments involved at a certain time of the year go to the group that our good old friend, the Minister of Finance, is so proud of - his troops 1 his battalion of lvhich he is the financial comandant, the Treasury Board. P.ight? And v7hen the Department of ~~unicipal Affairs goes up with their estimates they are told that you rave to cut back Sl million or $2 million and so on,othe~vise "tve will do it for you arbitrarily. Now then there can only be tHo culprits in this case, :-fr. Speaker.

It is no good merelv goin~ after the Newfoundland and Labrador Rousing Corporations,because they are merely the arm or the agents of. one J the ~~inister of :runicipal Affairs, who has not yet decided to address himself to this problem publically; or secondly, the President of the Treasury :Roard.,r.rho is the :·~inister of Finance,o;;.yho sits there norv che\ving on a hard candy knob or something, r.rhatever he is munching on this afternoo'1. "~vfR . DOODY: ~!R . "'TOLMT: MF". DOODY: I do not have anything in my mouth excent my - Cud. rud. That is all I can afford. Right.

T·Tell an.vway'lthe fact ic:; •,:e are not goin:;:r to 5828

/ ~' ! ay 3, 19 77 :::'aoe 20~4 br ing Hr. Vivian before the Bar of the House are ive, ~! r. Soeaker , •·Th e.n 'v8- do not need to? A oint of order. :·fP.. SPL J(ER: A point of order. '·~ . PECKFORD : It ~.;auld seem to me th<1t the han . member fo r Conception Bay South is ranging into the field of de ate and explaining to us., as I am sure all h_on. members are a~,rare of anyway_, the procedure ;hich is follat ·Yed by governnents in all ,;urisdicti ons as to how things are de cided . And I submit, ~ r .

Speaker, that it is reall y not germane ,the remar ks t hat the hon . member is making nmv, to the Prayer of t he Petition Hhich is to indicate - ~. NEARY: You do not need to cover it. ~·ffi. . ROBERTS: It is fav oura l:Jle compared to .ost of ~.rha t t he minister says. ~1R. PECKFORD: - su~port of a comPlaint by the residents that their rents are being increased higher than they think is necessarv at this time.

And so launching into what I would consider to be a debate on the way in ~-vhich governments go about making these kinds of decisions is really not showing support for or against the petition for which 'le is supposed to be doing just that • ~ IR . RORERTS : . r. Speaker, if I might spea k to that point of order, I submit that what seems to the hon. minister to be out of order is not therefore out of order. In fact in this case it 5829 .m- 3

Hay 3, 1977 Tape no 2085 Page 1 - ms I1r. Roberts. most decidedly is not. Your Honour was good enough to bring me to the straight and narrow when I strayed. Your Honour, I am sure, would have intervened here had my colleague been straying, but he was not. He is supporting the petition. He is doing it in the entirely accepted way of buttressing his remarksj of setting forth a chain of logic, supporting a very strong argument, and I submit he should be allowed to do it without the attempts by the Minister of Mines and Energy to harass him, to throw him off his train of thought.

It is only a five minute procedure at most we are allowed to use in support of petitions. My friend from Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) is making his argument, Sir. He is not straying in the debate. He is simply explaining the way in which the system works to show why he comes to whatever conclusion he is going to come to. I think that is perfectly in order, Sir. It is not argumentative. It is not debate. It is simply logic. I realize that that may escape the gentleman from Green Bay (Mr. Peckford), Sir, but we should not have to be troubled in the House with that. MR. SPEAKER: On the point of order.

As the han. member for Conception Bay South is aware,in speaking to a petition he is required to comment on it and indicate his support of it by way of comment and not of debate. I would not rule his remarks to this point as out of order. If the subject matter of his discourse were to be something separate and distinct from support of the prayer of the petition, it·would be. He has made references to matters not identical with the prayer of the petition, but in my opinion thus far logically related to it. And I now call upon him for the minute remaining to continue his remarks. 5830

May 3, 1977 Tape no. 2085 Page 2 - ms MR. NOLAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well in conclusion may I say that here we are, and it is the whole point, never mind let us bellyrag the Ne~vfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. Maybe they are at fault, but they are only the instrument of the government, financially the instruments of the Treasury Board and the minister, and they are doing what they are told. It is as simple as that. MR. ROBERTS: That is the whole point as the minister knows. MR. NOLAN: The department is going in the hole, jack up the rents. Now that is the name of the game.

Now if we have the other agency that the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) referred to,'tvho is quite prepared to carry, for example, }tr. Dobbin and his apartments ~fore the board regularly and I so on - I am not trying to protect that gentleman. He is quite capflb.le of protecting himself, but what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. And the Minister of Municipal Affairs cannot stand by innocently and mute and let this 25 per cent or 30 per cent go into effect. It is heartless, cruel and brutal in a very difficult time in our Province. Sm1E HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NOLAN: I support the petition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. NR. DINN: Hr. Speaker, first of all let me compliment the member for Burin- Placentia West (Mr. Canning) on his presenting the petition in the House on behalf of his 140 constituents in Marystown. It is unfortunate that at this time we put the rents up in several areas in Newfoundland. But before the rents were increased in any of those areas the financial statements were presented to me. I had them checked out and was satisfied that the rent increase was put 5831.

Hay 3, 1977 Tape no. 2085 Page 3 - ms Mr: DINN: on only to recover operating costs. So ~..rith respect to the people in Stephenville, I -.;.;rent out there, had a meeting with th~~. and made them an offer, and I have to do the same with respect to the people in Harystown. The fact of the matter is the rent increase pays only for the operating costs, and we have to recover operating costs. The people in Newfoundland cannot be called upon to subsidize people in Marystown. It is as simple as that. And they have to pay their r.vay as do people in St. John's or anywhere else. HR. SPEAKER: MR.

PECKFORD: NOTICES OF MOTION: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrmv ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Act, 1975." ANS~RS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN~ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Yesterday, Mr. Speaker, I undertook to give to the hon. House the termination and completion bonus arrangements for the Labrador Linerboard Limited staff. The document that I have here to circulate was prepared some time ago and so the

preamble might appear to be something less than it should be, but it is the original document. I cannot say if it has been circulated prior to today or prior to yesterday through the mill, but obviously it had been prepared some time ago. 5832

~'ay 3, 1977 !:'ape 2086 LB-1. up. nnon~: The document is nrepared ~!ere anc re<=tcy f0r circulation an0 I offer it to the Pouse. ':!:'here are enou!?h cord .es 1-,ere for everyboc y and there are so~e for t~e press ~allery. T ha~re no c1oubt that there ':·'ill be --uestions and these people in the miJ 1 r.rj_ :u ·- ~,e asl<ing r,rhy this anc1 r.rhy not th~.t. There T,riJl 1:->e <mo!T'alies T,rhich hopefu] ly ~,~e -.;.Jill correct as tirre g:oes on. But that is the plan as it nmv e>:ists. !':' ..

SPL-\.:."ZEP: Eon. '-Iinister of Yines and Energy. 1 '1' .• PECKFOT'.n: Fr. ~peaker ~I r..rant to tahle the ansv!ers to auestions that r.rere put to '!"'e on the Order :::'aper SOI!'.e time a'!o. A~•s~.rer to Question 5, asked by the hon. member for LaPoile. Pns~er to Question 25, asked by the hon. rrernber for Trinity - Bay cle Verde. An~~ver to Ouest;on 73, asked by the hon. l:!'eT!lber for LeT.!isporte. /lnST,~er to question 82, ?.sk-.ed by the han. m_eml:ler for LaPoile. i\nST'er to Clnesti oD 115' a~lrec1 hy the ron. TT'e'!"'ber for La:Poi _,_e. .

"-nsr.:rer to nuestion 165, asker:'l l:Jv the han • T!'er.11-,er for T -o • 1 --<'-•- OJ_ e. I '1-:ereby table . tre cmswers to trose questions. Fon. ~'inister of Hea]th. vu. r.:r. rQtL INS: ~'r. Spea1-~er, I h.ave the ans·pers to three or four or five questions 1-,_ere. ~uestion ~. asked bv t~e hon. me~ber for LaPoile, ~eal]Tlf F:Lth the influenza vaccination proP;ra!'T"e.

Ouestion 1, aslrec1 1Jy the hon. merrber for La.Poi1e., deal in~ ~-·:ith abortions and r>uestion 2~3, Cl.s!red by the sa-r.1e hon. ::ember, 'toJith re~ard to the cost of the rarbonear Hospital. nuest]on 235, asl<e~ "-y the same hon. rneml:ler -· hie!"!h~'!' f~r LaPoiJe- re1<'lting to the Centra} Supply T'ivision of the nenart!!'ent. Onestion 236, c1eaJ :i.ng 1dth Central Supply T"ivision. Clnestion 237, aske~ de~Un~ l,•ith rentral SupnJy. OtLl\L OUESTimTS ~on. Lea0er of t~e 0Dpositjon.

A auestion for the ~TeMier Sir, a-isin~ out of tre si tuatjon at Stephenvi :lle. 'TI'ere is aprarentJ y a ('reat 0e?.l of confusi.on in tre 'lT1ipi'a of the e-r~p]cwees of l.Hhra<"or J.inerl:-oarr1 bett_reen tFo apparently contradictory positions of tr.e Govern!!'ent, 5833

~'ay 3, 1977 Tape 2086 L~-2. On the one hand ; the g:overn!!'ent has put forFan'l a severance pay scherne,F}1ich the Minister of F:tn~nce just mentione~, Hhich indicate£ to !"any people that they should f:O. 0n the other hand., the ~rinister of Finance h;:~.s said they nay go or sl">ould go, I say to the 'Minister of l"inance many of the empJ oyees in !"Y understanding take it as an indication they our,ht to ~o,they should go, not simply that they may fO.

On the other ha;-d,the ~"inister of Finance has said, and has heen quoted as saying and widely reported as saying that ~·7e 1J7ant the men to stay in the '!'lill until the final closedown or t~e final temporary closedmvn and even talked of bonuses to veep them to stay there. People ~enerally are just confused. r.c?n the Premier pJ ease make a~ · definitive statement to set the matter straight? ~P. SPEA~P.: Eon. Premier. 'PI'.Ei''!E'P ~'00RRS: !he "'<inister of Ftnance mi~ht ~.;ant to add to ~·ihat I have to say)'· 1 r. Spea¥-er.

As I understand it, it certainly Fould be desirable from everybody's point of vie~• I think i.f people could • stay until the inventory is at least complete~, until further reports have been received. As I tmderstand it the severance pay is much more lucrative; I think it is six months for those who stay for the completion, for some people,but lesser for people 1Jrho leave,say, iml!'ediately. l'F .. ROJ3E'P..!S: r-.~r.

Speaker, a supplementary. ?-'I? .• SPEM<EP: A supplementary, original quest inner . ?-'F .. 'P.013E'PTS: ~·auld the Premier be v:illing to ~o to Stephenville to attend a public meeting to discuss this question and others with the people of the ar.ea? 5834

·. Ta-pe 2087 J~f - 1 ~-fR. SPF..AXFR: ~e han. Premier. PREl!IER ~100l:!_ES : Fr. Sneaker, I am always glad to go to Stephenville and meet 1.rith the people. I think before we have any nublic meeting I think it is very important to deal with the people directly involved and work out some of the ground rules so that they and ourselves have some idea of Hhich way r.ve can expect to go and wbich Hay it should be done. And at the appropriate time 'ivhen there is so~ething definitive to be gained by such a meeting,certainly we will do it, Hr. Speaker. '1R. ROBERTS: A further supplementary. HR.

SPEAKER: A sunplementa~r - the original questioner. HR. P.OBF.RTS: Hr. Speaker, is the Premier willing to go to Stephenville to meet with the employees involved and to meet Hith them within the next fe1.r days? l-IR. SPEA_TZER: The l:on. Premier. PRENIER ~100RES: I think the ~A"inister of :-1anpower and Industrial Relations is out there now, Mr. Speaker, and as I say when these details are ~ilL ROBERTS: That is why they 'ivant to meet with the Premier.

PRE:HIER :t-~OORES: Hhen these details are ironed out we will gladly go there~but we are not going there for either the gain of the Opposition Party or ourselves nolitically. :·IR.. :,TOLAN: Some Opposition, how about the people out of jobs? ~·ffi_ • NEARY : ~·tr. Speaker, there is a much broader question that I would like for the Premier to straighten out and this is not in any political sense at all. It is a serious matter. But the people in the Bay St.

George area~as it was reported to me,feel that the government- and this may sound nonsensical ,by the way- that the ~overnment announces had good before it announces the good ne'ivs, and that people are exnecting a multinational comnany to move in, Consolidated Bathurst or somebody like that. ~Tow I cvould like for the Premier to lay this rumour to rest once and for all. Is it true? 5835

~~ay 3, 1977 Tape 2087 Is it not true? Is there a possibilitv of a comnanv comin~ in to ta~e it over? \~at is t~e situation concernin~ this? HR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PRE~flER '·{OORES: Hr. Speaker, I >vish it 1-rere true but the fact is it is not. There is absolutelv no proposal or undertaking by any multinational company. That r,rould be an absolutely criminal thing to do if anyone had it in mind. It is not the case at all. As I have said and I have said many times,and I certainly do not mean to be nolitical here at all, I do not think anyone 1-ranted to see that mill closed.

I do not think)~:v11ilst there mav he differences of opinion 7 I think great extremes 1·Tere gone to to trv to keep it open and I think that will be proven in the debate here. But that is not to say, "!l.fr. Speal:er, that durin~? the four to six IJ'.onths ahead that every effort will not be made~and that there are not possibilities. But it certainly Hould be very, very wrong to give false hones to the neople in Stephenville at t'"lis time. r.m. SPEAY...ER: :'-1R. S TM110NS : The han. member for Rurgeo-Bay d'Espoir. Mr. Snealr.er, I have a question for the Premier.

I understand the 'Premier ~.;as in PEl yesterday. I trust he had a good trip. But otherwise I wonder would he indicate to the Pause 1-rhether he discussed with his colleagues, the other Premiers in the Atlantic Provinces, the matter of possible co-operation in the hydro area and also if he would indicate what other possible areas of co-operation might have "been discussed or 1vere discussed in fact. ~1R . SPE .. "'KFR : The hon. Premier. PP.E::IER ~OORES : The fact -vras, ~r.

Speaker, the reason I 1oJas in Charlottetovmvesterday was the CEC are putting on a five hour show) I think it is,with various people in the Atlantic Provinces, 11.11 four Atlantic Provinces, and one of the ~ours was the four Premiers dealing c•Tith the ouestions of Atlantic Canada in the future and the various vieHs -vre had and the various difficulties that could arise in Canada r.;rith the unstable situation we have today. One of the 5836

Hav 3, 1977 Tape 2087 J'-f - 3 PP.EMIER YOOEfS: subjects discussed ~vas energv, on the prograrnme and off after,and certainlv there is a !!reat deal of interest and I thinl-:. a great deal of co-operation that can he done betHeen the Provinces to have a uniform approach. For instance~the sort of thing that in the :national interests, I think a regional grid ~.rl,.ich T,muld include Quebec as well, but even a national grid \¥hereby energy, lvhether it is from Churchill Falls or \vhether it is from the nuclear ulant in \le\-1 Bruns\vick or 1vherever, that you have the security of an intertie which a grid provides.

This is one of the things that I think there is a great deal of opportunity for in the future,and I think in the national interests the regional grid.,-tvhether it goes through Quebec or not., is equally as much of national importance and a national responsibilitY as was,for instance~ the pipeline 'vhich also transcends the provincial borders. :vm.. SPD'~ONS: A supnlementary. A supplementary. l<R. S P"EAKER : rfB_. SI:-rrmrs: Hr. Speaker, a supplementary to the Premier~ Some press reports I saw this morning coming out of Saint John, NeH BrunsT-Tick ouoting the Premier of Ne\v 3runswick, "1r. Hatfield.

He indicated that the four Premiers had discussed some other possible areas of co-operation. \-Jould the Premier \vant to inform the Pouse about l•rhat other areas were specifically discussed? =~ot so much in the public forum, the tv programme,but in the meeting that obviously took ulace among the four Premiers. NR. SPEAKE~ The han. Premier. PRE}flEP_ :rOf)P.ES: There was verv little that took ulace that '·7as not on the tv orol!ramme, }.~r. Sneaker, but we were in areas of transportati<'n, areas of manpower training, just about every area in the general sense that affects us all uniformally - the Harks.

"But what ''7e \vere 5837 unemployment, inflation,

Hay 3, 1977. Tape 2088 PJI - 1 PREMIER MOORES: talking about were in areas where we could be mutally helping each other as opposed to go off in different tangents. Newfoundland does have a different situation than the other three Haritime provinces in one respect particularly, I would suggest, and that is that there are a great deal more resources potentially that can be developed on the Island and in Labrador as compared to Prince Edward Island or New Brunswick or Nova Scotia. So whereby priorities - there are mutual priorities, priorities that are mutual.

We also have priorities here which are not to the same effect or the same degree as to the other provinces. HR. SIMMONS: A supplementary. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the original questioner. MR. S HfHONS : Hr. Speaker, we are aware that the other three Haritime Premiers are involved in a council of Maritime Premiers.

I wonder -.:.;auld the Premier here indicate whether his government or whether he has taken a definite decision either to seek an expansion of that council to become an Atlantic council of Premiers or whether there has been a definite decision against such an involvement~and if so if he might state the reasons to us? }~. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Neither, Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. ~ffi. NEARY: Hr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the han. the Premier, Sir, in connection with the Newfoundland Construction Association which is trying to seek a meeting with the ~nvP.rnmPn~ ~~ ~a~ ~n outline of plans that may help the industry. Hould the Premier care to comment on the charges that have been levelled at the government by the Newfoundland and Labrador Construction Association on the lo\v level of activity and involvement in the construction industry this year by the Provincial Government?

Hould the Premier outline, give the House some indication , Hill there be any help for the sagging industry this year? 5838

Hay 3, 1977. Tape 2088 RR - 2 MR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PRE:t1IER £-mORES: I am meeting \vith the representatives of the construction trade I think probably early ne~t week, Mr. Speaker.

The situation is that in this Province we had some very large projects,like the Linerboard Mill and like the refinery and like the Upper Churchill, that took a disproportionate number of people into the construction force as opposed to other industries,where at the one stage, I guess it was last year, that forty-four per cent of the gross provincial product and earnings was from the construction industry which was very disproportion~te compared to other industries. I think there has to be a levelling out. There is only so much government can do and that has been spelled out very clearly.

Whilst I wish there was enough work for everyone in the construction industry, I am afraid until such time as the Lower Churchill or something like that is developed it will be highly unlikely. The other thing is of course that private capital being expended in this Province is very low compared to the rest of Canada,and in Atlantic Canada it is very low compared to the rest of Canada. The construction industry,not like many other industries, say, well what are the government going to do for us.

It is unfortunate that we do not have primary resource- based industries that expand and build new factories and so on that could take up some of that slack, but unfortunately ~ve do not. HR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, after I will recognize the hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR.

NEARY: Could the hon. the Premier just give me some clue as to what projects, if any, both federal and provincial - the Premier must have some idea now what federal projects will be going ahead in Newfound­ land this year and what provincial projects will be going ahead to help the industry, to help the construction workers get back to work? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. 5839

May 3, 1977. Tape 2088 RH - 3 PREMIER ~fOORES: I certainly cannot do it in detail, Mr. Speaker. I1R.. NEARY: No, not in detail. Just give us a general outline. PREMIER MOORES: Well there is the finishing up of the hospitals you knm·J about, Mr. Speaker, the Health Sciences Complex and the Corner Brook Hospital completions. There is a fair amount of work on DREE roads, on provincial roads. There is no other hospital construction.

And there will be water and se~-verage , but do not think the projects have been announced as yet, but not to the degree that will be necessary to take up all the slack in the industry here. We are hopeful to get a couple of other DREE agreements signed which will have, I think, serious effect on the construction industry, on the beneficial side of it. And at such time as these projects are ready, Hr. Speaker - MR. NEARY: Will these be water and sewerage or roads or >vhat, these new DREE projects? PREMIER ~-- ooRES : Buildings and roads. MR.

SPEAKER: I do not know if any han. gentleman is raising on a supplementary. AN HON. ME~1BER: No • MR. SPEAKER: No. I have indicated I will recognize the hon. gentleman for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: A question for the han. the Premier. I am wondering if the Premier is - MR. ROBERTS: We do not get enough of you when you are here, we have to ask questions. PREMIER MOORES: Yes, dear. MR. NOLAN: I hate to break up the social. In the news in the last fe"t-7 days there >·ms a report allegedly originating with the Shaheen outfit in Ne-.;-v York, 5840

May 3, 1977 Tape no. 2089 Page 1 - ms Mr. Nolan. possibly attributable to Hr. Taube or Tubb or something, and referring to the fact that there may be an announcement in perhaps a six week period on the Come By 01ance refinery. Surely, they would not make an announcement without some consultation with the government because of the government's obvious involvement from the very beginning. Could the Premier be good enough to bring us up to date on the current situation? HR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: The current situation is, Mr.

Speaker, to the best of my knowledge we have no proposals before us that we can react to and hopefully - well we know people are interested- and hopefully those people who are interested, including Mr. Shaheen, then I will get the proposals in so we can examine what they hav,e in mind. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition, followed by the hon. gentleman for Fogo. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I 1vill give the Premier a question off. My question is to the Minister of Hines and Energy about St. Lawrence.

Could the minister tell us 1v-hether he has received any indication from the Alcan officials, the Alcan Company as to whether or not they have completed their review of the status of St. Lawrence,which I understand is aimed at determining whether that operation will continue or not? And could the minister tell us if he has received the report or a report? What the decision is? And if he has not received a report could he tell us when he expects to receive it? }IR. SPEAKER: MR. PECKFORD: The han. Minister of Hines and Energy. Mr. Speaker, on Friday,I think,I got a review of the St.

Lawrence situation • From whc.t 1ve were told by the compau.y last 1veel< they have not made a final decision on 5841.

Hay 3, 1977 Tape no. 2089 Page 2 - ms Mr. Peckford. >vhat they will do at the St. Lawrence operation. There are a number of proposals that they are now looking at that have been done both by the local officials in St. Lawrence and by some people from head office for expanding the operation, expanding the processing of the ore to help bring down the cost. Their problem is one of cost, that the output at St. Lawrence per ton is higher than they can now purchase the same quality processed product from Hexico and other places in the world. So they are looking towards trying to cut their costs, their operating costs.

But they have not made a final decision. I understand that the operation as of today, say, or Friday~is good for the end of this year - ~R. ROBERTS : The calendar year. MR. PECKFORD: Yes, the calendar year. - and that before that time they hope to make a final decision on what they are doing in St. Lawrence. They have indicated that they hope that decision will be forthcoming before June. That is the latest information that I have on it. That is of Friday past.

But one of the major things they are trying to do is through an additional processing facility concentrating the rock~to bring the capital cost down which would mean perhaps only another fifteen or twenty jobs, but which would apparently bring that concentrate cost down to a more reasonable level so it is competitive so that the enterprise can remain open. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary, ~1r. Speaker. I thank the minister.

Can the minister tell us whether any of these proposals of which he speaks, these possible changes in the operation thus making it more economic and thus more competitive, .;.;rhether any of these changes depend upon assistance from the government of the Province2 5842

May 3, 1977 HR. SPEAKER: MR. PECL(FORD: Tape no. 2089 The hon. minister. Page 3 - ms No, Mr. Speaker, not at this point in time. The company has not approached us for any assistance on the business of modernization or expansion or change in what is down there now. About two or three months ago the manager of the operation in St. Lawrence visited me and we talked about - MR. NEARY: Mr. Gillies • l1R. PECKFORD: Mr. Gillies, yes. - we talked about changes that could possibly come about, and I arranged for a meeting with DREE people for him and he went to the meeting. But I have not seen him since. MR. ROBERTS: MR.

PECK FORD: DREE do not get into processing, do they? No. But there was some kind of clause in one of the DREE programmes that I thought might be applicable, but apparently it is not. But in any case I did indicate to the manager and to the company that we would be willing to look at ways and means of keeping the operation open if they decided that, you know, some major input of money and assistance was need, and we would be willing to look at it. Whether in fact we could do anything for them ,.;ill depend upon the kind of proposal put before us. In any case Alcan in St.

Lawrence and at head office are aware of our eagerness to keep the operation op·en and of our co-operation in every way to ensure that that occurs. MR. ROBERTS: A further supplementary. 5843

May 3, 1977 Tape No. 2090 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the original questioner. HR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, can the minister tell us whether there is any requirement incumbent upon Alcan as the operators of this mine to give any particular degree of notice, any particular amo~t of time of their notice to cease operations if that should be the result? We do not exPect the result. We certainly hope it will not be the result~ but it is certainly a possibility and my question is, you know, is there any requirement? Do they have to give six months notice, three months notice,or can they shut it down overnight? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Hines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, there are two issues at stake here, two points relevant here, One ~vould be the agreement that they have in the ongoing operation there~whether there is anything in that agreement - MR. ROBERTS: An agreement with their employees? MR. PECKFORD: - yes - plus whatever the agreement is with the Newfoundland Government and their concession• I do not know if it is in that. MR. ROBERTS: Their concession is back from the old, old, old days. ~m. PECKFORD: Right.

And number two would be relative to the labour laws of the Province and whether notice has to be given under that, ,.,hether they come under that. I am just speaking in more of an academic - ~· ~. ROBERTS: But those specific - 'MR. PECKFORD: So to answer your question~! do not know. see t'tvo points that I am going to have to - MR.ROBERTS: MR. PECKFORD: }!R.. FLIGHT: MR. PECKFORD: keep my train seven or eight to be informed Re the Termination of Employment Act. Yes. Right. While you are at it look at Buchans,'Brian'. Yes. Could you just let me finish so that I of thought here?

However, I have about 'tveeks ago written Alcan and indicated that I as Minister o£ Mines before any decision was 5844 I can can wanted made.

May 3, 1977 Tane No. 2090 NM- 2 XR. ROBERTS: . Was that personally or officially now; we will get the Morgan distinction here. ~. PECKFORD: Officially. Obviously. MR. ROBERTS: I just ~.;anted to be clear on that. ~. PECKFORD: Officially, that I wanted to be informed in the same "tvay that I requested that kind of notice from Rambler just before Christmas and also requested that I be kept fully informed so that I could inform all hon. members of the Rouse and whatever. And so the information flow is the way it should be because in many cases the large companies get MR. ROBERTS: beyond what - MR.. PECKFORD: MR.

SPEAKER: As of now he has no definite information Beyond December 1977. The hen. member for LaPoile (Mr. Nearyl I believe is on a supplementary. No. The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans I believe is on supplementary. MR.

FLIGHT: Yes, supplementary to the Minister of Hines, relative to his answer to the Leader of the Opposition. n~s the minister served notice on the operators of the Buchans Mine that he wants the same type of notice pending closedown~and "tvhile he is standing would he indicate as to whether or not he has received reports that he was supposed to have received at the end of January with regard to the life expectancyZ MR.

SPEAKER: Before recognizing the han. minister to reply to the question,which I will not rule out, I will just point out that it does not appear to be a supplementary, which rises out of the previous answer. I realize it is related to mining 9but the line of questioning previously was in respect to St. La'tvrence and I would think it would certainly be preferable, and in a strict sense would be required,that it come as an original question, However, it has been asked so I will call upon the hon. minister,if he wishes, 5845

May 3, 1977 Tape No. 2090 NM- 3 MR. SPRAKER: to answer it. MR. PECKFORD: We have been in touch with Asarco, the 09erators of the Buchans mine,and have ascertained them the latest information as it relates to the life expectancy of the mine which is somewhere between June - July 1979 to December - January 1979-80, depending upon the price of lead and zinc and how that continues to fluctuate,and hopefully it ~vill move upwards.

And of course we are getting updating on a fairly regular basis, monthly to every two months,from Price (Nfld.) on their ongoing exploration activit~es to see whether in fact they are going to be able to bring on stream some new ore body. ~R. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: One supplementary.~and then I previously indicated I would recognize the han. gentleman for Fogo (Captain ~Vinsor). MR. FLIGHT: Would the minister indicate at what level of management he received this advice from, whether it was the management at the New York office or the local management in Buchans itself? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: I am not sure, Mr. Speaker, because I requested an official from the department to put together all the latest information and get in contact with the company. When I said company~whether they went to Buchans or whether they went to New York or Chicago or wherever they went, I understand it to be true and factual information and its source is unknown to me specifically at the present moment. ~. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo. CAPTAIN WINSOR: Hr.

Speaker, I had intended to ask a question to the Premier but he has left the Chamber, However I will direct a question to the hon. ~inister of Fisheries. Has the minister.,or 5846

May 3, 1977, Tape 2091, Page 1 -- apb CAPT. IUNSOR: Can the minister inform the House now whether or not there is a set price for lobsters? Has he been able to negotiate between the buyers and the fishermen a price that is acceptable to the fishermen? HR. SPEAKER: ~1R. W. CARTER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, a week or ten days ago I wired the four companies that were involved in the purchasing of lobster from the fishermen of Ne,vfoundland and I expressed some concern with respect to the prices being offered by the four companies for the lobsters.

I asked the four companies concerned to provide me \•!i th an explanation within so many days as to why the difference between the price being offered Newfoundland fishermen as opposed to that being paid the Nova Scotian fishermen. Four of the companies have replied to my telegram and have submitted figures in which they have endeavoured to justify the prices they are paying. These telegrams have now been submitted to the Fishing Industry Advisory Board whose job it is to very carefully assess the figures and to provide me with a report, hopefully within a few days, as to their legitimacy or otherwise.

But certainly I am told that in some parts of the Province the price for lobsters has increased while in certain other parts of the Province they are still paying, I think, around one dollar and ten cents a pound. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Conception Bay South followed by the hon. gentleman for LaPoile. HR. NOLAN: Hr. Speaker, a question for my friend the Hinister of Consumer Affairs. The minister I am sure is aware that there is a group or a board here known as the Funeral Directors and Embalmers, with which the member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young) our friend 584 '7

May 3, 1977, Tape 2091, Page 2 -- aob MR. NOLAN: MR. DOODY: worrying you. MR. NOLAN: to that later. 'Digger' is well familiar. That is not what is really No, not really, but we will get MR. ROBERTS: Treasury Board provide the Embalmers with what they need. MR. NOLAN: We are thinking about putting the embalmers in formaldehyde. SOME HON. MID1BERS: Oh, oh! MR. NOLAN: minister's question. MR. SIMMONS: MR. NOLAN: that the board - r1R. SMALLWOOD: Board? MR. NOLAN: MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. DOODY: MR. NOLAN: ~1R. 5r·1ALLWOOD: HR. NOLAN: MR. SIMMONS: MR. SMALLWOOD: Board? MR. NOLAN: MR. ROBERTS: sor.m HON . HID1BERS : MR.

NOLAN: Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: I would like to get to the Treasury Board should be embalmed. Is the minister aware of the fact What is that new name for Treasury ~'lha t is that now? What is that title again? The embalmers and funeral parlours. The embalmers? What is that title? The Funeral Directors and EmbaL~ers. That is not the Treasury Board. Is that the nel-l name for Treasury No, they are soaked in formaldehyde. Digger O'Dell's goodies. Oh, oh! Could I get to the question, Hr. I would hope that the hon. gentleman will soon direct himself to that. ~1R.

NOL2\N: Well, I am ~Tendering is the minister aware that the Board has not met since August of 5848

May 3, 1977, Tape 2091, Page 3 -- apb MR. NOLAN: 1976'? MR. SIMMONS: They are dead. MR. NOLAN: At that time that they referred regulations and so on to the Department of Justice and they are still waiting to hear the answer. That they were supposed to have their annual meeting in April past and it has not been held? Do you think the minister could take a shovel to the problem and dig them out and get them to work? Hould he give us some information on what is going on with that crowd? Ask his friend behind him over there. MR. NEARY: boy. They are all dead on their feet MR. SIMMONS: Give it to them 'Ank'. MR.

SPEAKER: Affairs. HR. r-1URPHY: The hon. the Minister of Consumer This is something new to me, this shovelling out undertakers and all the rest. What department does this group come under? MR. NOLAN: I believe it might be under the minister's department but I am not sure. MR. MURPHY: Well, I do not believe it is so I cannot give the answer. The minister will check it out. MR. ROBERTS: It is a consumer affair. MR. NOLAN: Well I just thought if it is the minister's department surely I should not be telling the minister. MR. ROBERTS: HR. ~1URPHY: Opposition. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: It is a consumer's affair.

I refer it to the Leader of the The hon. the member for LaPoile. My question is for the hon. the Premier. The Newfoundland Command of the Royal Canadian Legion - MR. SH!r-10NS: Good question 'John'. 5849

May 3, 1977, Tape 2091, Page 4 -- apb MR. NEARY: If I can just get a little order here from the member for Burgee -Bay d'Espoir, Sir. The Newfoundland Co~and of the Royal Canadian Legion are fighting the closing of the Department of Veteran's Affairs office in St. John's. Would the Premier indicate to the House if the government have been approached to join with the Royal Canadian Legion in fighting the closure of this office? And if so, ~vhat the Provincial Government is doing about it? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, to be very honest I did not realize that the office was being closed. Certainly anything we can do to aid in any representation or anything else to keep it open we will gladly do so and I thank the hon. member for bringing it to my attention. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. M:R. SPEAKER: A supplementary, followed by the hon. the member for Fogo. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, this is just another example of running Newfoundland from Halifax. Would the Premier indicate to the House - AN HON. MEMBER: Charlottetown. MR.

NEARY: Well maybe it is from Charlottetown this time, but I understand they are moving it to Halifax. But would the Premier indicate to the House if the government, the provincial government have made a list, say over the past five to ten years, of all the federal government offices that have been closed out, phased out in Newfoundland and the headquarters moved over to Nova Scotia, over to Halifax? If 5850

Hay 3, 1977. Tape 2092 RH - 1 MR. NEARY: so,what was the result of the survey? l'IR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES : The answ·er is no, Mr. Speaker. But I think if an analysis was done I think we would find a great many more,to be fair, a great many more federal representatives here now than at any time in the past. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from Fogo. CAPT. WINSOR: A question to the Premier. Can the Premier inform the House whether or not the government is considering selling the fishing lodge on the Gander River? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: The answer is yes, Mr. Speaker.

CAPT. 1-HNSOR: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. CAPT. \.JINSOR: \.Jill it be called by tender or a set price? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: It will be tender. Hopefully the price will be high enough to accept, Hr. Speaker. CAPT. WINSOR: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. CAPT. WINSOR: Will the same thing apply to the cabin on the Adlatok River in Labrador. PREMIER MOORES: The answer is yes, Mr. Speaker, to both questions. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. G. FLIGHT: When is this going to - MR.

NEARY: Would the Premier indicate if both of these lodges will be replaced with other facilities or does the government intend to get out of this business altogether? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: They both may be replaced, Mr. Speaker. They may be expanded, may be torn down. That depends entirely on who buys them and what they intend to do with them. 5851. / /

Hay 3, 1977. Tape 209 2 RH - 2 MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for ~villingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Hould the Premier be tvilling to consider the alternative to selling them, disposing of them because they are valuable.

They can be· terribly valuable for special guests of the government, that the government might bring into the Province from any part of the world. '1-Jould he consider trying to put the one on the Gander River, put it on some sort of paying basis so that it would not be a drain on the Treasury but that it could be made in some way or other to pay instead of abolishing it. l1R. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: After government's experience of running the Linerboard, ~1r. Speaker, we have decided not to even get into the lodge business.

The fact is that I do not think it is the role of government to get into this sort of thing. And as I said if the tenders are high enough they will be accepted. We are not going to give those lodges they way they are, valuable. They do serve a very useful function. MR. SHALLWOOD: They do. PRElHER MOORES: Having said that, Sir, I think it would have to be- any arrangement done with those lodges or others, there tvill always have to be accommodation in the Province for visiting guests from outside 7 which the han. member well knows we have a great many of1 and which they are very beneficial to entertain.

ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: The han. minister. HON. W. DOODY: ~1r. Speaker~ I wonder if I might ask the indulgence of the House by leave to revert to Notices of Motion. I had intended to move a resolution relative to the Labrador Linerboard Limited debate, that it is not the intention of government to call the debate today or tomorrow. But tve will do it tvhen the Opposition is ready. I \-las speaking with the Leader of the Opposition this morning and we have agreed to have a briefing session on it and an answer/question period 5852

Hav 3,1977 Tane 2092 RH-3 ~~. DOODY: sort of thing. But I think it is irnnerative that the resolution does get on t~e Order Paner. And if I have leave of the Fouse I ~vould like to introduce it. RON . ~·~D~mER: ~· fR. DOODY : HR. SPEAJ<ER: Agreed. Thank you. I understand it is agreed that the hon. gentleman has leave to give notice of ~otion. i'-!R.

DOODY: To move: HREREAS the Labrador Linerboard Limited, a Cro~vn company, has onerated the l.inerboard ~Jill at Steubenville since 1973 pursuant to The Step~enville Linerboard ~ ill (Agreement) Act of 1972: AND 1:·JFEP.EAS Labrador Linerboard Limited has suffered serious financial losses in each vear of oneration, ~.;rhich loss in 1976- 77 amounted to $40,900,000; AND HHEREAS a revie,·T of the marl:eting: and financial outlook of the Company made 'by the Province and an Advisory Board of exnerienced businessmen has concluded that further substantial financial losses will be incurred in future vears of operation; MID HHEREAS {;overnment has decided to phase out the operations of the Linerhoard Mill at Ste'['l'lenville: NOH BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that this House de!:Jate the closing of the Linerboard ~ill so that government mav have the opinions and assistance of Han Hembers in its efforts to assist all persons involved in the oneratiO'lS of the Liner'IJoard ?!ill. 7-!R.

SMALLFOOD: Phat about these things yesterday the minister 1vas going to have distributed to all of us. '~. DOODY: I sent them un to the Opnosition office this morning. 1-ffi. ROBERT~: Yes ~·.re have then. ORDERS OF THE nAY ~I}'.. SPEAKER: Order (2), Committee of t,e Sunnlv. The motion is that I nm•T leave the Chair. 5853

Hay 3, 1977 Tape no. 2093 Page 1 - ms MR. PECKFORD: We got fifty minutes to go on Executive Council. Right, remember? tve will go right back to Health. 2!R. DOODY: We will go back to Health. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Chairman, as I understand it the other day they were in Health, but Executive Council was put over until - v1e have fifty minutes left to do regarding Planning and Priorities, Intergovernmental Affairs and the Premier's Office specifically I understand. MR.. CHAI&'1AN: Order, please~ I am informed that there are forty minutes left. PREMIER MOORES: Forty minutes, fifty, well either way, ~~.

Chairman, we will accept your decision. The fact is, Sir, that there is a great deal that can be said about the Planning and Priorities Committee. I do not 't-7ant to speak too long because I would rather hear what the members opposite would like to know specifically about the various votes in the department. The fact is that contrary to a lot of debate that has been held regarding the validity of even Treasury Board as well as Intergovernmental Affairs and as well as Planning and Priorities, I would like to deal briefly with the Planning and Priorities branch first. The fact is, Sir, that that - MR. DOODY: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder could we have a little order c-Tithout the precincts of the House. I am finding it very difficult to follow the hon. Premier. MR.. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! I would ask the Sergeant-at-Arms to take the appropriate action. The hon. Premier. PREHIER MOORES: ;'1r. Chairman, as I was saying, the Planning and Priorities Secretariat, the function of it may not be understood 5854 ..

May 3, 1977 Tape no. 2093 Page 2 - ms PRENIER MOORES: by everybody, but the actual function of that secretariat is to provide the services to the resource departments of government, the social departments of gove~nment as well as to Cabinet as a whole, particularly in major decisions and in areas of major importance. There are some excellent people in that particular secretariat who do1 in fact,do a great deal of research, a great deal of communications with other interested parties, like other governments and so on as well and prepare very well researched papers. l1r.

Dave Mercer ~~ho the Leader of the Opposition well knows and Mr. David Vardy who is there at present, these people have done a tremendous amount of work in accumulating various info:mation and providing various advice to government. Some examples, Mr. Chairman, of the type of work they do, they prepare in co-operation with Intergovernmental Affairs and line departments for various submissions to DREE for potential subsidiary agreements. The work has been completed for instance this year in the areas of tourism, agriculture, forestry, fisheries, Labrador development, infrastructure and initiatives in the St.

John's urban region and in the Corner Brook harbour development. They also are planning for co-operative fishing arrangements in the future fisheries development, and in this regard they have worked very closely with the Department of Fisheries. They have_- Mr. Var~y_particularly has travelled to Europe with the Fisheries Department, the fisheries officials, and to Ottawa \vith me and the minister, and has been once again very helpful particularly in areas that may not be directly involved in fishery.

For instance in the tariff negotiations that Canada is presently holding with Eu~opean countries, the Gatt negotiations, and the negotiations that are going to be required so that Canada can negotiate, hopefully> the tariffs for fish lmver than is the case. For instance in Europe a lot of members may not know 5855

May 3, 1977 Tape no. 2093 Page 3 - ms PREMIER UOORES : that the tariff is fifteen per cent on fish from all over the world. The fact is that Norway and Iceland both have negotiated a three per cent preferential tariff and this was done bilaterally without going through the Gatt procedure, and I would suggest, Sir, that if the fisheries stay in the agricultural end of the Gatt ~egotiations vTe will not be getting the attention that we obviously needed to get now in our present circumstances, and this secretariat has been working hand in glove with the Federal.

Department of Industry Trade and Commerce to try to achieve our objectives in this area. MR. SVJJ\LLWOOD: That fifteen per cent that is enclosed by all the ECG - PREl1IER MOORES : EEC countries. MR. SMALLWOOD: - countr~es against all others. PREMIER MOORES : All other countries with the exception of Norway and Iceland who have preferential treatment, and the reason they have preferential treatment, of course, was because there were certain fishing rights allowed in both their waters 5856

~ay 3, 1977 Tape No. 2094 NM- 1 PREMIER MOORES : and that is why they had preferential r~te for their fish going in. I would suggest the case is exactly the same with Canada nm.; where there is some negotiation going on as to how fast they can be phased out. In Iceland,of course , they were phased out but the preferential tariff still remains. And I suggest we are in the same position in Canada today as Norway and Iceland were four or five years ago when they did the same thing. MR. SMALLWOOD: And they have a three per cent.

PREMIER MOORES: They have a three per cent tariff on cooYed and on frozen fish which,as the hon. member for Fortune (Mr. J. Winsor) well knows, the reduced tariff on cooked fish could make a great deal of difference in reprocessing in this Province. The Secretary and Planning Priorities also review. They are now doing a review of major social policy issues, including the federal-provincial social security system. the ~ Health Manp~wer Planning, extended care nursing facilities, unified family courts and wage garnishments.

They are also in preparation of the Province's job creation programme, co-ordinating the implementation of the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Municipal Government, the Henley Commission. All these sorts of reports that come to government have to be analyzed, they have to be put before government in a meaningful manner and this department is doing it. For instance right now the participation in the Federal- Provincial Manpower Needs Committee and technical sub-committee to develop comprehensive manpower policies and programmes, manpower inventories and training programmes.

In this regard when I was in Ottawa last week one of the main reasons for going )of course ) was to establish priorities that both Ottawa and ourselves agreed should be done. We got a great deal, I think it is $1.2 billion

~fay 3' 1977 Tape No. 2094 NM- 2 P~IER MOORES: of federal money coming into this Province each year in one form or another, salaries or whatever, and with this amount of money coming into the Province there is a great deal of it coming in as part of an umbrella policy, a policy that goes for all of Canada in make tvork. It is just that make work, not make work with any end objective in mind. For instance there are a great many make work projects that could be done in this Province through different agencies to develop a project that will aid and abet further development in the future. MR.

SMALU!OOD: I do not want to interrupt the Premier's train of thought, would he allow me? This $1.2 billion coming into Newfoundland from Ottawa, is that alleged to be the grand total sum of Canadian Federal Government money coming into the Province or is it only some of it? Is that the total sum that comes into Newfoundland out of the Treasury of Canada? PREMIER MOORES: That is basically the total sum, Mr. Speaker, that includes equalization, and it includes salaries for federal civil servants, the unemployment insurance benefits, cost­ shared programmes, DREE.

There may be one or two programmes missing in that but certainly the rn.aj or bulk of what ~ve are' talking about is in that figure. MR. SMALLHOOD: PREHIER ~mORES: !'1:R. SMALLWOOD: PREMIER MOORES : 'MR.. SMALUTOOD : PREMIER MOORES: MR. SMALLWOOD : PREMIER MOORES: And what period? What year? Well that is forecast for 1977. Current year. Yes. $1.2 billion? $1.2 billion which is a large expenditure. It has got to be more than that. No. That is the figure that we were given and that Ottawa and ourselves agree with. Rut I can get those figures and gladly submit them for the scrutiny of - MR..

S ~fALLWOOD : Includes the armed forces, the airports, CNR, CNT . 5858

:M..ay 3, 1977 Tape No. 2094 PREHIER ~fOORES: It includes the CNR and the CNT but it does not include I do not think the armed forces because I did not think we had that many here. NM- 3 MR. LL~DRIGAN: Oh yes, There is a fairly large number in Gander. PREMIER MOORES : Is it? -nor the airport operations. But I could certainly get the list for the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) - MR. SMALLWOOD: It would be fascinating. PREMIER MOORES: - and let him take a look at exactly what is involved in it, MR.

SMALLWOOD: But as the hon. the Premier was such a staunch Confederate he would be just as proud and hap~y to get good figures as I would be. PREMIER MOORES: Well not only that, Mr. Speaker, but I am not at all reluctant to seeing the figure doubled either - MR.

SMALLWOOD: Yes quite, PREMIER MOORES: - ~referably not on pa~er but rather in fact, I think it would be very helpful to the Province at this stage; But, Sir, the fact is that the Planning and Priorities Committee, their basic job is to analyze the various line departments, the programmes that are coming forward, to do research for Cabinet presentations, to do research for programmes that go before federal government which !ntergovernmen~al Affairs are presently looking after. In the area of Intergovernmental Affairs,of course,there is also a great deal of work being done by that organization.

Now I think probably there is more actual contact between governments, and I am talking provincial governments as well as the federal-provincial governments now than ever before. We have a great deal of co-operation in the area of energy in Mines and Energy for instance as a result of meetings in the Atlantic region. We also have continuous contact with provinces like Alberta. We obviously have to have continuous contacts with provinces like Quebec, which have an effect on our energy development. Equally with the fisheries 5859

•ray 3, 1977 'rape 2095 LB-1. PB.FMIE"R voor:rs: deveJ oorn.ent and the installation of the 2'J() mile liTTiit, we obviously have intense negotiaUons "Y7ith the Fec1eral Government.

At that stag-e> of cou:r.se, you start dealing also 1-1ith possible foreign governwents in certaj .n cases YThere in countries like Portugal government control is hecoming ~~re the subject of the day or more the circumstance of the c:1ay 1 there a!so ·has to be contact here. :Saually in the federal relationships 7 of course, if we are going to have meaningful progra!ll1'1.es in the future the role of Inter governmental affairsis one that has to he carried out .. , Eaually in these various headings Fe have here nmv, He have, for instance, the Labrador Resources Advisory r:ouncil.

A lot of peop]e may not think that is an irrport~_nt boc1.y t"bat h8s been estahlished, certainly they have been i.n mP.ny cases very critical of ?.overnMent.and I thinv in !'\any cases w~rJ cleserver]y so. I,also thinlr that particular council hC~s rnac1e a tremenrlous step in t~e rig-ht c.irection of esta,.,lishin~ the <?;enu5ne neecls of Labracor, on the coast of Labrador particularly.

I think you have a situati .on 1-1ith the Advisory C01.mcil whereby, for tl->.e first ti111e people from corrrrrmnity to co!l'munity are actually gettjng to?et!ler and tal1-inp and saying the things that one Hould expect them. to say. They are finctng out what treir problems are, and they are fincin? out that aJl their problem~ are not neces.sarily the same. 'i'hey are certainly finding out that all the solutions are not blanket solutions hut they are individual .solutions and co"fTI!!lunity solutions and so1"1e re~ional solutions.

But Fhat they r8.ve clone7~ir, is brinf': a further emorasis to the people of the co:=tst. '!.'hev have ,.,_ad, I think; iT"lproved cmmnunicaUons. They have certainly i.~provecl the articulation of trei~ positjons. It is manned by ~en and FOJ'!1en Fho are concernerl and iledicaten. Tr.ey were in here just a fep YJeeks a~o. 'They have ctcme a tre!'lencous a:rrount of worl-.. 'They speak to 7over.nrnent representing the feelin?-S of the peopJe 58 SO

~"ay 3, 1977 Tape 2095 LB-2. PP~'TE'l' '~'OOPFS: in the Labrador COITI!!lunities on Clll resource issues_, issues such as the fisheries, forestry, oiJ and p:as, uranium, and they, Sir, as ~vell as oassing on their feelinl!s to government are also in the ]earnin?- process themselves. Ano because of thjs conT.lunicat1.C1n hack and fort'~->> I think;it is Harking very; verv vrell. Cornt!'luni ties are a"~>T<".!!e of the use of the resources and the rood and the bad effects that come from the development of t'bese resources.

The environmentalists are not just running roug:hshoc over the connnunitjes but neither <'Ire the industrialists. There is a happy l!d:l~ corning from really wl-Jat are a very ·well balance~ groun that are very,as I say, articulate anc1 very forceful on occasion, and in many ways not very complimentary to government. But, I think any government needs groups ]ike this because I think they 1 in the end analysis 1 do a great deal to help further the develop~ent of the province and particu]arly the area of the province they themselves represent. ":•r.

Speaker, I have been ~oing here for t~,renty minutes or fifteen and there are a great many grants that are given to the institute f0r research and public policy ~vhich is a feoeral financed . ;mel ,,ery partially financed or~?anization by the '='ederal Government~ but I think the best th:(n5!' for me to do Sir, is to sit dm·m and hear ~vhat the han. !!'embers opposite have to say and try to reply to t'h.eir specific questions \·7l-ten they are finished. ~'F. SPEAKER: Fen. me~ber for l.aPoile. ~'I? .• ~TEAPY: ~·r. ChaiTI".an, if I did not hear it with my m,"n ears I \vould not helieve it.

It is absolutely amaz~n~ S]r, it is fantastic, I never cease to be amazed at the Fon. the Prem] er. The ~.ray that the Ron. the Prell'.ier can make things sound so plausible. And 'ou believe him 1-r~en you kno"~>r you sl-Jould not he helievin~ him. That is probably the ~ey to t~e Pon. the Premier's succ~ss, Sir. It is all malarkey. 'i.Je ~.:rere t<:~l1ring: about GATT ?n~ tarif£s and the labrador resources Aclvisory rounciJ., all ~,rritten out probc>~bly by t"e P' ann:ing and Priorities Secretc>.riat, ?iven to the Pre!"'.ier to bring into the House to read.

It is Drobablv the first ti!"'e the 11 N~ .• the Prer:!ier read it. Fe~_l, / / 586:1

:"ay 3,19 77 Tape 2095 LB- 3 ~iR . NEARY : maybe it is not, maybe I am \·lrong there but certainl y , Sir, it is not a composition of t h e Hon . the P remie r hinself. It is all balde rcash, Sir. Yos t of t his vote Execu t ive Council is a y;aste of the taxpay ers ~~nev . PR£HER "~f00RF.S : Gi ve me a buck wil l you? MR . NE.:~RY : Give the lion. the Premie r a buck 7 PRID'TER MOORES : Yes . ~~ . ' iEARY: ~~r. Cha.irman , r.;re hea rd yesterday abou t t he Treasur v Board secretariat. ~Je knot·I hoH powerful they are .

Thev are the real de.cision make rs in t his Provi nc e not the elected represen tatives of t he peop le as I said yes terday. Planning and Prio rit y Se cretariat has shot.m us not h i ng in t his H.on. P.ouse . 5862

'.·ray 3, 1Q77 Tape 21196 JH - 1 ~~. ~~F.ARY: Nobody,- none of us understand, Sir, ,.rhat their jobs really are. He are snending %93,000 on Planning and Prioritv Secretriat, for ~·7hat? \11e have not seen any results of it. TJhere are our planning and priorities? The ~vhole." economy is collapsing;, the roof is caving in, we have record une~ployment. the construction industry is ready to fold up and here eve are ~.vith t~is Planning and Priority Sccretriat, supposed to be advising the government, telling the government what to do.

Well they do not have a verv good track record over the past five years since this administration took over. Fhat about the elected representatives? 1·rnat decisions are they making or are they leaving it all un to this croFd of academics~ Planning and Priority Secretriat down ~·:rriting their little paners and writing their thesis and their compositions, passing little notes around to one another, memos back and forth to one another. Mr. Chairman, as I said, the hen. the Premier can make it all sound so plausible. For a \-lhile there he almost had me converted.

I was beginning to believe what the hon. the Premier was saying. I have seen the han. the Premier so many times take to the television in crisis situations and make things sound so plausible and people sitting out there believing it and saying, Yes, no that is not true. I knmv it is not true but I believe the Premier because he is saying it and he sounds so sincere and he looks so nice and the Colgate smile. ~ - ~r.

Chairman, r.vhy does not the hon. the Premier and the administration face un to reality, face up to the facts of life, ~ripe out the half of this Executive Council vote and save the taXPayers about $2 million? All it is doing, Sir, is it is insulating the elected representative, it is insulating the Premier's office and the ministers from the ordinary ranl---. and file peonle of t1:1is Province. That is all it is doing. It is not setting nlanning and priorjties in this Province. There are no priorities. There is no planning. This administration 5863

Hay 3, 1977 Tape 2096 JN - 2 HR. ~iEARY: is flying by the seat of its pants. The onlv Planning and priorities they have is in the Premier's back pocket or ~vhen there is an election on and out comes an envelone ~vith a little note scribbled on it, "T..re are go in?: to pave the Loou Road." That is the only planning and priority, Sir, that -.1e have in this ~rovince at the present time. Hr. Chairman, if the hon. the Premier could stand iri. his place and show me one constructive idea that has e~4nated from this Planning and Priority Secretriat then, Sir, I might be sold on the idea of having it. But, lv1r.

ChairJilan, we all know even though the hon. the Premier just told us how important all these groups are, ~.,e all know, Sir, that this administration has not produced one idea since it carne into office in 1972. There has not been one development in this Province since this administration took over. That is your planning and priorities. Not one. How many mines have been opened? How many new industries have been created? We know how many have been shut dmvn. This is the shut-her-down government. T..Je know hmv many are shut down but how many have been created?

You can criticize the former administration all you like but one thing you have to say about the member for T~villingate commonly kno~m in this Province as 1 Joey 1 there was ahvays that carrot dangling there, that ray of hope 'vas always there for the people of this Province. ~. MURPHY: ~ IR. NE!LRY: A very expensive carrot. \~ell, $700 million was the debt of this Province after tHenty-three years and no"YT it is $2.5 billion. Tripled, tripled since the PC administration took over. Is that your planning and uriorities? MR.

MURPHY: Please be honest with yourself. ~-IR. . nrARY : I am being honest, Sir, 1o1ith myself and I am being ~onest \vith the peoule of this Province. $2.5 billion,the debt has gone from $7nO million over a five vear ueriod to S2.5 billion 5864

~1ay 3, 1977 Tape 209n J:'! - 3 i'!.R. ~JEARY: and not a thing to show for it. I 'i..rould not mind if there t.ras somethin~ to s!-toH for it. He have recor d unemolovment. ~ ·!he re are the plans of t he Planning and Pr iority Secretri .'lt, t~e young oeoole, the fiftv per cent of voung peop le in this Pro vince bet1o~een the F.ge of eighteen and t~venty - five tvho a re unemployed a t the present time tvho cannot find jobs? 5865

May 3, 1977 Tape no. 2097 Page 1 - ms Hr. Neary. vlhat plans do the Planning and Priorities Secretariat have for these young people? Fifty per cent of our unemployed today are young people between the ages of eighteen and twenty-five who cannot find jobs. Mr. Chairman, I know that the hon. Premier probably does not like to hear this but the truth hurts sometimes. The truth hurts, Sir, and we have in this han. House - I know I have myself tried to steer the han. Premier in the right direction, lead the han : Premier into the light of doing some positive and something constructive.

I put foward an idea on the establishment of a productivity council in this Province that has not seen the light of day. Was that fed into the Planning and Priorities Secretariat? PREMIER MOORES: It is in there now. MR. NEARY: Well if it is in there it will probably never come out unless the han. Premier puts an acetvlene torch to the rear of some of the members of that secretariat. Mr. Chairman, it is a waste of the taxpayers' money. And Intergovernmental Affairs is ten times worse. There is no justification for that at all in this world, none at all. The member for Kilbride (Mr.

Wells) was asked a couple of years ago, a few years ago to take a look at the establishment of an intergovernmental affairs department of which I assume the han. member for Kilbride (Mr. Wells) was going to be the first minister. The han. member for Kilbride (Mr. Wells) came back and said, "No, we do not need it. ' We do not need it. But nevertheless the government went ahead foolhardy and established it to satisfy the ego of Mr. John C. Crosbie, the big shot, now out carrying his personal hatred and vendetta,carrying it on in Ottawa.

That is why, Sir, that was established to add, to inflate the ego of the most expensive man ever elected to this House: who cost the taxpayers of this Province literally millions and millions of dollars / 5866

}fay 3, 1977 Tape no. 2097 Page 2 - ms Mr. Neary. through stupidy and gross errors in judgement. MR. SHALLWOOD: Hundreds of millions. MR. NEARY: Hundreds of millions of dollars. Bullied the han. Premier and the Cabinet into making wrong decisions. I do not know if these things went through the Planning and Priorities Secretariat or not. But Intergovernmental Affairs should be wiped out as I said yesterday when the hon. Premier was not in his seat. It should be eliminated. There is no justification for having it. It does not justify its existence. It is costing $525,000.

It is costing over a half million dollars, that is the Intergovernmental Affairs Secretariat, costing over a half a million dollars. It should be abolished right off the bat. I do not mean the people should be laid off, thev should be put at doing something productive. And I am sure that they themselves would not mind being put into a position where they can do an honest day's work for an honest day's pay. It is not the fault of the people who are in the Intergovernmental Affairs Secretariat that they are just down probablv punching in time.

It is not good enough, Sir, and I am not prepared to accept the Premier's explanation for these things even though he did make it sound so plausible and so wonderful and so important. I am not going to accept the explanation, Sir. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Premier a question. I have been trying to find out now for a year or so - I was told about a year ago, a year and-a ~ half ago that the government of this ' Province had a young lady stationed up in Ottawa - AN HON. HEMBER: Name her' HR. NEARY: Yes, I will name her ~ Miss Carlson was her name working for the Intergovernmental Affairs Secretariat.

I have been

May 3, 1977 Tape no. 2097 Page 3 - ms Mr. Neary. trying to check it out between here, between the Department of Intergovernmental Affairs here and . Ottawa, and I have not been able to get to first base. The Department of Intergovernmental Affairs here refused to give me the information. I do not know if it is correct or not. PREMIER MOORES: You will get it. MR. NEARY: But is it correct? Does the government have a permanent employee stationed in Ottawa? I would like to find out, Sir, and if so who is paying the expenses? Mr.

Chairman, most of these positions are redundant and the employees if they are at the retirement age they should be pensioned off and if they are not at retirement age they should be transferred to more productive employment.

When I look back and see how the former Premier of this Province ran his office, and she blocked to the doors all day iong, you could hardly get in there, there were so many people there, millionaires, paupers alike, sometimes sitting on the floor, and everyone of them, if they could wait long enough, \-tould get to see the Premier of this Province, would get to see the Chief Executive Officer' the First , Minister of the Land ., but not today, Sir. If you come up in the elevator today not a soul to be seen. If anybody comes in can they get to see the hon.

Premier or will they be pawned off on one of these flunkies. Can anybody come in today, make an appointment, come in to see the Premier of this Province? Well, I want the Premier to tell me because I kno'tv people who have been sidetracked and pawned off on the flunkies down on the eighth floor. The whole thing, Sir, is designed to insulate the Premier's office and the ministers and the elected representatives, to insulate them from the ordinary people. They are afraid that they might be contaminate by the ordinary people of this Province. And so, }rr.

Chairman, there is no justification for there is justification for some of this vote. The Premier's office probably could be cut down substantially. The Executive Council office and Cabinet Secretariat - I am not so sure about that one. 5868

Hay 3, 1977. Tape 2098 RH - 1 HR. NEARY: Treasury Board Secretariat is becoming ' a monster. Planning and Priorities Secretariat, wipe it out, and let the ministers, the ones who are supposed to have the responsibility of setting the priorities and doing the planning in this Province, the elected representatives of the people, let them make the plans for the development of this Province and the plans for the government to carry on over the next two or three or four or five years. They have got enough expertise in their own departments. There is duplication here, Mr. Chairman.

The ~linister of Finance has all the expertise he needs in his o~m department. He does not need to go to Planning and Priorities. If he did all he would draw is a blank anyway. So, Mr. Chairman, I hope that none of us will be conned into the ex~lanation that the Premier has given us in his introductory remarks. MR. SMALL WOOD: Mr. Chairman, before the Premier speaks vlOuld you allow me a moment? I am in partial agreement with what has just been said by the hon. member, but only partial. The fact is as Churchill once said that the Premier- he used the t,Tords Prime Minister.

It means the same thing " The Premier is the source and arbiter of public policy." The source is from him that it comes and he decides the source and arbiter of public policy. Nm.;r this does not mean dictatorship. This does not mean that the Premier solely by himself without advice, without help, without guidance, without information, acting solely and exclusively on his own formulates policy and makes all decisions. It does not mean that. If it meant that he would not need a Cabinet. If it meant that he would not need a House of Assembly.

If it meant that he might consult with a few cronies and that would be the government of the Province or of a country. It is not like that. That is not what Churchill meant. HR. NOLAN: Hr. Chairman, excuse me, there is a terrible noise going on, and we cannot hear what the hon. member is saying or if any member speaks on any side of the House surely they should be quiet. 5869 /

Hay 3 , 1977 . Tape 2098 Rll - 2 MR. S11ALL ~~00 D : I am under the disadvantage . I do not knmv- how much is left for this ~epartment. How ~uch time is left? HR . CHAIR."iAN: The questions will cease at 4:48. HR . NEARY: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman . Sir, are we operating now under the old rules or the new rules. My understanding was that the new rules ended as of eleven o'clock last night . There was no motion . There was no leave of the House this afternoon to operate under the ne~v- rules. So I \vould assume, Sir, ~ve are operating no,., under the old rul es. MR. PECKFORD: To that point of order , Mr . Chairman . 5870

"-1ay 3, 1977 Ta?e 2099 .P1 - 1 :-m_. PECKFOP.D : As I understood it 1ve are operating under the hours allocated for the departments but we ~vere not onerating as it relates to ~v-hen the Fouse is going to sit or \·rhen it is not going to sit. So my understanding is that 1.1hen \ve started today in committee we are operating under the allocation of hours to the various departments of government> as \Y"as agreed to; but there has been no agreement as it relates to when the House will sit. AN HON. "XB·!BER: Okay. All right. HR.

S}':ALL HOOD : ~.Jell that means that we have fifteen minutes hut then the Premier is going to speak and there may be other han. members who ~.,rish to say a tv-ord. HR. NOLAN: cut off. ~·!R.

SM..ALU700D: So you cannot - the time is the time, simple as that - I said 1ve have fifteen minutes for everybody who is going to speak from this moment on until the vote is ta~en and the Premier is going to speak. ~fuat I wanted to say is this that it is perfectly right for a Premier to have a Cabinet and to seek their advice and to seek their guidance and to seek their concurrence because he will not have a Cabinet very long if he does not do that. It is perfectly right for a Premier to have a civil service because the Cabinet cannot carry out the governing of the Province.

They can only decide what the policy shall be but the carrying out of policy takes thousands of men and women in the civil service. To have a body such as the planning and priorities committee - is it? - or board, is very sensible. I do not see anything ~vrong with it. Their job I take it is to do research, mainly to do research. A busy Premier and husy ministers do not have that much time that they can do the research so they have a staff of men perhaps some 1vomen to do it. The staff may be too hig, I think I could go along \vith the 1:!on. gentleMan who just S])Oke on that.

I thinl~. it is get tin~ to be a hit too ricb for our blood. I thin]-: that the economy that is so 587:1

Hay 3, 1977 Tape 2099 .TI·! - 2 !vf.R. S:V. ALL 1A700D : badly needed in the government might very ~.;ell be applied to that particular board. If it is costing $500,000 or $600,00() a year and a staff of how many? Pow many are in t~at planning and - HR. NEA,':'tY: Oh my God, I do not knm.;r._Look it up for him 'Tom'. l!:R. SHALLHOOD: A large number of men,and some of them Here my choice I may say, some of them I chose. some of them I caused to be appointed to the Treasury Board. that group. He did not have a planning and priorities board per se as such. He had nlanning but it was not done hy any particular board.

I have to agree ~·Tith the Premier's Policy of - HR. NEARY: Treasury board is thirty-seven. MR. Si\!ALL HOOD : Treasury board is thirty-seven. He had - what r11ould ~ve have had? The member for Conception Bay South was I think a member of it, hmv many? Four or five. ~-1R . l10LAN : Four or five, yes. HR. S1-1ALLTJOOD: Four or five and there are what, thirty-seven nm·T? It sounds a bit extravagant. Perhaps twenty - ~ !R. PECKFORD : A point of order. Just for clarification if I may? I do not know if the hon. member for T~villingate has understood the time that is remaining under Executive Counci]_or nnr.

I heard the Chairman say that it '>las 4:48 r.vhich r,_rould mean - ~·ffi. SMALLHOOD: 4:49 he said. HR. PECKFOP.D: You understand that it is 4:48 because I understood the hon. Premier r..;anted to rePl y . MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes, exactly and I was going to take five or eight minutes because - I do not know how many I have taken. PREMIER ~CORES: C.o ahead. MR.

SMALU700D : It is an important subject and really all I \vant to say is that it is wrong to obi ect to the existence of such a body, but I think it is right to object to having a body so big and so expensive in Newfoundland today that this programme of economy which is so desperately needed ought to "' .

~1ay 3, 1977 Tape no. 2099 JM- 3 Nr. Smalh~ood. include a reducti on, perhaps the abolit ion of the Intergovernmental Board or reduce it to two or three or one or t\vo and reduce the Planning and Priorities Board substantially, not abolish it because I think t hey should feel the pinch of an economy drive perhaps even more than some and as much almost as any. So I would like to hear what the Premier has to say. I t hink he has gone too heavily . He has 5873

May 3, 1977, Tape 2100, Page 1 -- apb MR. SMALLWOOD: twenty people in his own department, I had five or six, I think, six or seven. He has twenty something odd - no, what is it for Planning? What did you say? Hmv many? SOME HON. ~- ~EMBERS : Thirty seven. MR. Sr1ALL~··lOOD: In the Planning and Priorities. Then the Treasury Board is, how many? Now you are talking, you see, the Premier's off ice b7enty; and thirty-seven - MR. ROBERTS: About eighty people altogether. MR. Sr-1A.LL~vOOD: About eighty people. Now that is a lot of people, and there are some brainy people there amongst them.

Some of them are former academics. I do not blame them for that. I do not condemn them for that. It is rather too elaborate. It is rather the trappings of an elephant on the back of a mouse, which at the moment is a little bit - what is the word when you need to take liver? AN HON. MEMBER: I do not know. MR. SHALLWOOD: Anaemic. It is a bit rich for a mouse, it is a bit anaemic just now.

I would suggest to the Premier that he might consider that as part of a much more far-flung and s~V'eeping programme of economy in Newfoundland 1 because it- is not enough to economize on capital account, that is not enough. · It is not enouqh to reduce the terrible borrowing spasm of the last twenty- eight years. It is also necessary to economize on current account, and this a very heavy item, nearly eighty people in those three boards. PREJI.1IER .HOORES: r-1r. Speaker, in the limited time left I will try to do the best I can to answer the various people who spoke.

First of all the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood): As he says, the Cabinet is basically one of a role of ministers giving advice and then decisions being made on that cumulative advice as ,' / / 5~3'14

May 3, Tape 2100, Page 2 -- apb PREHIER MOORES: sees it. best as the first minister I might also say that I guess in any cabinet, in any government it is very difficult somet~mes for your colleagues, as the hon. member will well appreciate, in Cabinet to realize they are sometimes not administrators as opposed to policy makers.

I think this is very important at this stage that if policy making is to be the chief criteria of Cabinet, the resource and the research that has to go into the sort of effort that Planning and Priorities is doing, is the sort of information that should be coming forward so that policy is evolved as opposed to administrative detail. The Planning and Priorities principle is,as he said, sensible. The fact is, not do they just do research, Sir, but they co-ordinate a lot between departments, particularly now with the departments broken down into groups of their ovm.

There are ·twenty­ eight people in Planning and Priorities. For instance, there are four in the executive branch including one executive director, two secretaries and one post is vacant at the present time. It is allowed for, it is assistant director. The economic and resource policy where fourteen and most of the people are; this includes all the departments such as Fisheries, Tourism, Forestry and Agriculture, Mines and Energy, with offshore oil and gas today the potential of hydro ar.d all the rest of it. MR. S~.ALLNOOD: But do they not also have their own specialists and experts?

PREMIER MOORES: They do have some but basically when it comes in neighbouring and normally very narrow papers - and I will take that further and explain that when we are talking 5875

May 3, 1977, Tape 2100, Page 3 -- apb PREMIER HOORES: about the 200 mile limit today for instance, it is not just the Minister of Fisheries and his department. Because \vhen we talk about this '!t7e are talking about possible boat construction, which would include Industrual Development, we are talking about tariff negotiations which are Industrial Development, if you like, but certainly not something they have been very used to. You are talking about Municipal Affairs and Housing for future industrial parks so that they can ~e developed.

You are talking about Manpower and Industrial Relations for training whether it be crude training or whether it be onshore training for food technologists and this sort of thing, and equally education, whether it is for a polytechnical school and so on. So when you get all these various areas of departments involved, if you are waiting for them to sort it out themselves, I think the hon. member well knows, we will wait a long while because they are very difficult to get together.

But once you have a team together to pull it together, then this makes it a lot easier in some of these decisions that are brought over a period of - MR. SMALLT'!OOD: Agreed! Absolutely. Absolutely. But are we not going a little too rich? PRE11IER !-mORES: Well we have twenty-eight people in total; fourteen with that responsibility in resource, seven in the programme and development division .. and three _in the social policy area.

So when you take the whole role of government, twenty-eight people, and you spread them down bet~1een secretaries, research people and so on, twenty-eight people is not a great many people when you take secretaries, messengers and everybody else that really do co-ord; ... <=~te betv;een the line departments and the government - I mean, there may be room for one or two reductions there and certainly if there is it will be

May 3, 1977, Tape 2100, Page 4 -- apb PREMIER r.!OORES: done. Al.'l HON . ME_·'!BER: There are 28,000 public servants. PREHIER MOORES: That is right, there are 28 people doing this much while there are 29,000 in the public 5877

May 3' 1977 Tape No. 2101 NM -1 PREMIER MOORES: service I suggest there are a great many areas in the public service that could do with reduction probab~y a lot easier than the area we are talking about here. Equally the Intergovernment~l Affairs Department - :1-ffi.. NEARY : That is not a good argument. PREMIER MOORES: No, well I am just using it for comparative purposes. The Intergovernmental Affairs Division, we say there is a lot of people in that particular division, I forget the exact figure, I have got it here.

There are twenty-three in our Intergovernmental Affairs Division and out of that twenty­ three you must realize that most provinces today have full departments of Intergovernmental Affairs, they are nutting such credence on it and certainly the number of people in Ottawa dealing ~vith intergovertmlental affairs naturally is much, much larger.

So twenty-three people to handle the preparation of DREE agreements, which they do, they do all the preparation and the delivery and the follow through of DREE agreements which is pretty critical and they are the department naturally, Intergovernmental Affairs to co-ordinate that because each department just cannot develop their own approach to it. The anslver to one specific question that the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) asked me about Miss Carlson, the fact is that she and other people as well have gone to various central agencies that affect all governments.

In this case it was the major Secretariat in Canada which was fenP-r~llv orientated but all the Province contribute. I think it is $5,000 a year we contribute. That has nothing to do with ~iss Carlson. What happens here is they ask for representation from all provinces to serve on the Secretariat. The fact is that the Province pays a salary and is fully reimbursed for the whole cost from the federal government and from the Secretariat itself. }1R. NEARY: 1.J'e pay $5,000 and they pay SS,OOO. PR~HER ~OORES: No. No. We pay $5, 000 towards the Secretariat, 5878

May 3, 1977 Tape No. 2101 NM - 2 PREMIER MOORES: irres-pective if anyo,ne is there or not. But they ask for representation from the Province to serve on the secretariats. MR. NEARY: So in other words she is there as she was recommended by the Province. PREMIER MOORES: Yes, She is no longer there as a matter of fact, but when she 't.ras there she was - MR. NEARY: Well who is there noow? MR. DCODY: Nobody, PREMIER MOORES: Nobody at the present time, we will have to get somebody to go there. The fact is, Sir, that the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) is-he said he is very skeptical but he should not be, He should be more trusting, He should be not as suspicious as he is all the time. I know that he has the fire in his gut and he has the flame in his eye but even with that I know that there are moments when he has doubts about - You know ~1hen someone is sincere I am sure he can accept it and realize how difficult it is. HR. • CHAIID1AN : Order, please: Time is up. MR. SIMMONS: Forty seconds. PREMIER MOORES: Forty seconds, he said none. Okay, I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, but the member for Burgee- Bay d'Espoir (Mr.

Simmons) . says I have got forty seconds and you say I have none, which is it, Sir? MR. SIMMONS: Thirty now. Twenty nine. PREMIER ~mORES : Wel+, Sir, ap-parently the member is going to have a count down because actually this - you know you could go on for a great deal of time but I hope I have answered those few questions. On motion, item three - Executive Council, carried. / 5879

May 3, 1977 Tape No. 2101 NM- 3 Heading X - Health. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. member for St. John's South. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, before getting into a few remarks on Health perhaps I might be permitted to make an observation that I think the consideration of the estimates seem to be going much better this year than last year. Probably this is due to the fact that there is a certain definite time allotted to each heading so that people interested in the various headings can w·ait until that heading comes up.

But also I think the fact that twenty minutes is allotted means that there are many more people who can have their say on it and I am sure that all han. members have considerable interest in some item of the estimates anyway. Mr. Chairman, in considering Health I think it is important that we recall some basic fundamentals and certainly one of the fundamental things about the Department of Health is that it spends now something over $200 million, and I think that is a very important basic fundamental.

I think another imoortant thin~ to consider is what are the functions of the Department of Health and I might just read out what is written in the estimates. It says here, "The Department of Health is responsible for the provision of public health services geared to the diagnosis and 5880

May 3, 1977 Tape no. 2102 Page 1 - ms Dr. Collins prevention of disease and the promotion of good health. Functions include operation of ~ospitals, both by boards and by the department and the provision of medical nursing and health services. So that is one way of looking at the functions of the Department of Health. Another way that I consider myself perhaps a bit clearer is to say that firstly,the Department of Health provides some health services directly. For instance it provides ~ertain public health services; it provides vital statistic services; it provides central supply, and certain other services.

Now these are done directly by the department itself. In addition to these, it arranges for others to supply some services. In actual fact most of the health services in the Province are not supplied directly by the Department of Health but supplied by others, for instance, by the hospitals and, of course, all medical services are supplied by physicians. No one can supply medical services under the law except physicians. For instance hospitals do not ~upply medical services. Universities do not supply medical services. Departments of Health do not supply medical services.

Only physicians under the law can actually supply medical services, and dental services also. These are arranged for by the Department of Health. And the fourth function is that the Department of Health has to fund the health responsibilities that it has in the Province, and it has to fund just about all the health responsibilities whether direct or delegated. And one presumes that these are funded on a priority basis. Now to carry out all this work the Department of Health, of course, has to effect a certain organization .

It has to have a certain method of organization or it would not be able to function at all or it certainly would not be able to function efficiently. And its organization must be related to two things; 5881

Hay 3, 1977 Tape no. 2102 Page 2 - ms Dr. Collins. it must be related firstly to the services which need to be carried out; and secondly, its organization must be related to the circumstances that pertain at the particular time. In other words the organization of the Department of Health cannot be a static thing, because circumstances change and in actual fact functions that should be carried out by the Department of Health change. So the organization of the Department of Health has to be a dynamic thing. It has to be changeable;it has to be adaptable.

It seems to me that when we consider the estimates, what we are doing is we are asking, Is the organization of the Department of Health appropriate at this point in time considering what it has to do and what means it has at its disposal. So I think it is 1·mrth-while therefore to have a look at the organization of the Department of Health. Now if we go back a bit we realize that when the Province, when Newfoundland and Labrador first became a Province it received its basic health organization from the Commission of Government.

Prior to Commission of Government there was very little organization of health services in this Province. There were some, but they were very rudimentary and one of the MR. SMALLWOOD: Prior to ? DR. COLLINS: Prior to the Commission of Government. - and one of the things that the Commission of Government did leave us ~-lith was a basic organization of health services. MR. SMALLWOOD: Dr. Mosdell and Sir John- Puddester. DR. COLLINS: These were the men of that era. HR. SMALLWOOD: Dr. James HcGrath and Dr. Len Miller. DR. COLLINS: Dr. Len Miller being Dr. James McGrath 's boss in those days.

The organization that the Commission of Government did leave us with was the cottage health service which was spread 5882

day 3, 1977 Tape no. 2102 Page 3 - ms Dr. Collins. throughout the Province a:nd despite the fact that later it became outmoded that does not in any way detract from its great benefit when it was brought in and for manv vears after it was brought in. : Commission of Government left us with a provincial base hospital, the General Hospital which is still to some extent the base hospital of the Province. And other things, the private hospi ta.ls, were from the Commission of Government era even if the Commission of Government were not actually responsible, totally, for their evolution. The T .B. c:ontro .. l and sanatoria 5883

Hay3,1977. Tape 2103 RH - 1 DR. COLLINS: base mental hospital dates from the Commission of Government era. Public health nursing services dates from that era, infectious disease control and so on and so forth. Now since then, as I say , it is a dynamic situation - there have been new elements added to that basic complexion of things. And I might just list these because I think they do clarify, at least they clarify in my mind what the Department of Health has on its plate. The first thing that came about, I think, of importance was the influx of specialists. This was shortly after the ~mr.

Prior to that time most medical personnel in the Province were of a general nature; their training was general~ their interests were general~ and their capabilities were general. But after the war like many other places there was enough s";eep in specialist training and in the number of specialists that came to this Province. For instance, for the first time we acquired neurosurgeons. For the first time we acquired dermatologists. In my own specialty, for the first time we acquired pediatricians and so on. And these people necessarily - IIi.. ROBERTS : When certification came in. DR.

COLLINS: Certification came in at the same time. One had to be, except for the grandfather clause, one had to be a certified specialist who practiced as a specialist. One had to take special exams and so on and so forth. And when these new specialists came into the Province they required or they gave rise to the need for new facilities and for new ancillary personnel. And this, of course, had an influence on the organization of the Department of Health. The second new element was hospital insurance which I think came in in the early sixties or sometime in the first half of the sixties.

And this, of course, also required new organizational methods in the Department of Health. The next thing was the health insurance schemes. The Province of Newfoundland has some claim, a considerable claim actually, to be / 5884

Hay 3, 1977. Tape 2103 RH - 2 DR. COLLINS: considered one of the initiators of health insurance, that is public health insurance. The Childrens' Health Service came into effect in Newfoundland, it was either in 1956 or 1957, I believe 1957. And, of course, as we all will remember more recently the medicare scheme, HCP came into effect in 1969. These public health schemes, they gave rise to changes within the organization of the Department of Health. Particularly they had to give rise to mechanisms for the assessment of claims from people supplying health services. l1R.

SHALUlOOD: Is this by the government, medical and dental training? DR. COLLINS: Yes, I am not being complete in this listing. But certainly that would be another thing that would have effected the organization of the Department of Health. The next thing that I think is important and it has not anything directly to do with Health and that is the improved road communication in the Province, especially since the Trans-Canada Highway in 1965.

This made many more people­ or at least made facilities accessible to many more people throughout the Province and had a great deal of influence on how the Department of Health organized itself and that is still the case. Follo~ving this we had a broadening of the base hospital facilities in the Province. He had a specialist hosnital arise, the childrens' hospital,and we had the enlargement and the renovation, the expansion of the St. John's private hospitals .. Prior to that they were essentially city hospitals and to some extent maternity hospitals.

But from about 1966, 1967 onwards they took up the role as did the Janeway Hospital of being part of the base hospital facility for the rest of the Province. The next item I have here is the regional hospital concept from about 1969 onwards. And at the same time as the regional hospitals, that is major hospitals throughout other areas of the Province other than the base St. John's area, the evolution 5885

} lay 3, 1~77 Tape 2104 DR. COLLI~TS: of these hos?itals. This \vas also coincident \·lith an increasing supply of trained nurses. For the first time NeHfoundland had sufficient, if not a surplus of graduate nursing staff

whereas prior to that time, prior to about the 1969-70 period nurses \·Jere a scarce resource. Coming to more recent times the ~~emorial University :Medical School beginning, I believe it \vas in 1970;this had a great influence on health services in the Province and necessarily on the organization of the Department of Health and this of course is now being associated "l•!ith an abundant supply of physicians and other health personnel. Again this is a great change. Up to this recent era the supply of health personnel in the Province Has meagre to say the least.

At about the same time the integration of mental health care with general hospital and general health care became a reality. Prior to this mental health tended to be off to itself, quite divorced from health care, generally but nmv this large area of health concern is being integrated with the general health care concerns of the Province and again this must have an influence on the organization of the Department of Health if it is to discharge responsibilities. If 1ve look at the current situation we can see how this whole trend is accelerating. Currently we have the Pealth Sciences Complex going up.

This essentially is another addition to the base hospital facility. That is the central area, the St. John's area which has alvrays and > I suspect> for a long time to come will supply certain base·facilities for the rest of the Province. He have nm..r specialists for the first time outside the base area and "lve have salaried specialists. He have unionizetion of nurses and of non-professional hospital personnel. He have a Y.-1 - 1 new concept in prenatal care and in pregancy prevention. These influences are there. Certain aspects of them are clearly advantageous other aspects are not as advantageous in my vie1v.

T.-le have the sub-regional hospital programme. That is hosPitals such as the Carbonear Hospital, the proposed hosnital in Clarenville and the 5886

:Hav 3, 1977 Tape 2104 DR. COLLINS: proposed hospital on the Burin Peninsula. \·7hether one calls them regional hospitals or not is a little uncertain but I do not think that they ,.Jill have the same range of facilities J~r - 2 that the major regional hospitals such as Grand Falls and Corner Brook and St. Anthony will have.

And the final one I do have listed here is the change in federal health funding and the need to redirect provincial funds away from social services more towards developmental services. ~~ m" all these things I have listed these are all .new elements that have l,een laid on to'!' of the basic health organization that He inherited from the cottage hospital system and they must therefore have an influence on how the Depart~ent of Health is organized, if it has discharged its responsibilities.

If we look at the narticular oroblems or at least the major problems , in my view,that t he ~epartment of Health now has to face are one, the increase1 local demand for health services. That is at this point in time most areas of the Province want to see a certain modic~ or at least a certain range of health services within their immediate area. They are no longer content to have the health services somewhere in the Province and they may take advantage of them as they nossibly can. This is no longer considered satisfactory.

I do not think all local areas demand the full range of services but there is an increasing demand for an increased range of services available locall y . The second big problem which I am sure is nothing new to this Rouse are increased costs of health care and iust 5887

';a pe 2105 LB-1. one small figure -:nigl"1t pn:!.nt this out H !I"Y reac:U.n§': of the 1965-66 bucget is correct. For instance at "eT:'ortal TTni,Teri stv to train one meoical student for one year cost, denenc1ing 1-}oF you look at it, cost betFeen S2l,0()0 and $26.000. '!'hat is for one stuc1ent for one year. Ta~e a stude~t therefore, a medical student who has to go through a f.:_ve year course, r-re c-.re looking at scrr:1eth:ing over $100,00n for direct training costs that are the responsibility of the province. That is Phat the province has to T'i'l? out.

Phether there are additional expens 'es, anc! there al!'l .ost certainly are that are the individual's responsibility is another,.nt:ttter btit the province itself is having to contribute something li.ke a $100,000 or mere to each student ~.:rho completes medical studies. '!'hat is as I say just an example of the increase~. health cost. }-!F.. HURPHY : Du • ('1'1LL BfS : ~-r, • 1v'T_TRPRY : "I'. COLLE'l"S: You said 1965-19u6 did you mean that? l965-1966- no. I am sorry. 1975-1976 not 1977. It ~v- :Ul "e in !~ansarcl as 1965-l()fi6. T?ight' 19 75. "And then the final probler." .

I see looming large is the professional health ~-!Orl:er and non-professional health ~v- od:er, confusion and unrest, r,rhich is quite evi~ent in the Province to<"ay. So these three areas demand attention by vTh?.tever ori!anization the Department of Health has available to c1.eal ~vith them. Now I think the auestion naturally arises, ~ as the or~anization of the Department of Health kept pace r.vith all these changes, and it is appropriate, is the or~anization there appropriate to the present prohle~s? MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member's time is just about up.

TW. rOLL INS: I do not have the tiT'le to go into all this nc;.r. I Might have some till'e l~ter on. lJut I tr.ink that i.t seel"s to l!'e that tl:lis is what we are J ockin? at Hl->en !-re are talking about the estil:' .ates of the department of "~-Iealth. T·ThRt :is the or<>anizat:ion of the T"leTJart!'1ent of T~ea.lth nm·7 and is it appro-rriate to deal Hith the probJe!'ls and the new aspects of health in the Province? 5888

~rav 3, 1977 Tape no. 2105 "\-'1:' r.p AP:'~· rXN : The hon. menber for Trinity - Bay 0e ~rerre. ~·'I' • t>OTtJE : '~r. Chaiman, I a~ not intending to !!'.alre a verv long speech. There are just a couple of points that I Pant to 'h . ~r:cng to the CoMr!l.ittee 's attention, and I hone that 1·7e ·td 11 be able to get some ansv7ers from the ~·'inister of :Health pertaJnjnf? to the two points that I am going to relate to. Hr. rhairt!' .an, the first point is - ~·r. Chainn~n, I hate to interrupt - 0r~er, please! Order, nlease! - but it is very difficult - '1-:e are tryin~ to look at t'be spealcer.

I mean I r-lo not Tiline if anybody ~,rants to have a c~'at, but it is verv difficult in justice to the speaker to hear him and perhaps to see him, because I have not seen hi!!' in a fe~r days. ~· rp_ , POPF: Thank you very much, ur. Chairman.

The first po:l.nt, ~·r. r.haiman, that I vmnted to make was this, is that in certajn areas Khere 1·'e have r.ad a neT,.;r reg:i_onal hospital built,such as in r.arbonear, there i.s sor.:e concern, for exarr'Qle, voice(! by the oeonle of 0lcl Perlican and surroundinr, cot!'n"tmjties over the fate of the cottc>. ~e hospital in that particuJ ar co!!'II!'Unitv. 1\Tov I -.;muld expect that the same situat:ion exists in other pa.rts of our Province Fhere c•7e have had ne~r re~ional hospitals 'l,uiJ t and obvj ously 1·7here T,Te r..rn 1 be having ne~·r hospitals huilt so!l'e t:l~. e in the fttture.

Fe clo not 'ha'!e th::~t ii"!T11erHate probJem in rJaren~1i1le or ~· 'arysto.,m at the pre~ent time, because we still have a delay, of course, in the construction of these t._,o hospitals hecause of the fiscal restraints that r.re "1ave in the Province at the present t1.1"e. nut I <1rn sure th?t ,,r'hen the ti!1"e does roll around for t1:le ~uildin~ of t'hese hospitals that there "t-7i 11 he concern voicec'l 1--v the d t izens of co!!'rnuni U es anc1 surrounding coM"!unit i.es r.rr.ere yon have cotta<:::e hos-pitals. ~~. nc ~·rhat / 5889

~'ay 3, 1977 Tape nc . 2105 I •·101.1ld ] ike to as k the rnin :Lster, throu(>h the r.ormdttee , Ht: . rhaiman~ iS - 0rce r, please ! - wbat i s the fate of these cottage