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British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

4th Session, 37th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Thursday, April 3, 2003 Afternoon Sitting Volume 13, Number 14 THE HONOURABLE CLAUDE RICHMOND, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Honourable Iona Campagnolo 4TH SESSION, 37TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Claude Richmond EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council................................................................................. .........................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations.............................................................................. ..................... Hon.

Greg Halsey-Brandt Deputy Premier and Minister of Education ....................................................................................... ..................................Hon. Christy Clark Minister of Advanced Education................................................................................................. ...........................................Hon. Shirley Bond Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Treaty Negotiations.............................................................. .................... Hon.

Geoff Plant Minister of Children and Family Development.................................................................................... ..............................Hon. Gordon Hogg Minister of State for Early Childhood Development.............................................................................. .................................Hon. Linda Reid Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services......................................................................... .................. Hon.

George Abbott Minister of State for Community Charter........................................................................................ .................................. Hon. Ted Nebbeling Minister of State for Women's Equality ......................................................................................... .................................... Hon. Lynn Stephens Minister of Competition, Science and Enterprise ................................................................................ ..................................Hon.

Rick Thorpe Minister of State for Deregulation ............................................................................................. ............................................ Hon. Kevin Falcon Minister of Energy and Mines................................................................................................... ....................................... Hon. Richard Neufeld Minister of Finance ............................................................................................................ ....................................................... Hon.

Gary Collins Minister of Forests ............................................................................................................ .................................................. Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Health Planning .................................................................................................... ............................................ Hon. Sindi Hawkins Minister of Health Services.................................................................................................... ................................................ Hon.

Colin Hansen Minister of State for Mental Health ............................................................................................ ...................................Hon. Gulzar S. Cheema Minister of State for Intermediate, Long Term and Home Care ............................................................................. Hon. Katherine Whittred Minister of Human Resources.................................................................................................... ............................................Hon.

Murray Coell Minister of Management Services................................................................................................ .........................................Hon. Sandy Santori Minister of Provincial Revenue................................................................................................. ................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ................................................................................ ..................................Hon.

Rich Coleman Minister of Skills Development and Labour...................................................................................... .............................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Minister of Sustainable Resource Management and Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries ..................................Hon. Stan Hagen Minister of Transportation..................................................................................................... .................................................... Hon.

Judith Reid Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection..................................................................................... ....................................Hon. Joyce Murray LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Deputy Speaker................................................................................................................. ..............................................................

John Weisbeck Leader of the Opposition ....................................................................................................... ...........................................................Joy MacPhail Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ........................................................................................... .............................................. Harold Long Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .............................................................................................. .........................................E.

George MacMinn Clerk Assistant ................................................................................................................ ................................................................... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .................................................................................................. ........................................................ Ian D. Izard Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees........................................................................................ ............................................Craig H.

James Clerk Assistant/Committee Clerk................................................................................................ ............................................ Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms ............................................................................................................... .........................................................A.A. Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ..................................................................................................... ........................................

Anthony Dambrauskas Legislative Librarian.......................................................................................................... ............................................................. Joan A. Barton Legislative Comptroller ........................................................................................................ .................................................................Peter Bray Published by British Columbia Hansard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker by the Queen's Printer, Victoria.

Rates: single issue, $2.85; per calendar year, mailed daily, $298. GST extra. Agent: Crown Publications Inc., 521 Fort St., Victoria, B.C. V8W 1E7. Telephone: (250) 386-4636. Fax: 386-0221. www.leg.bc.ca/hansard In addition to printed transcripts, Hansard Services publishes transcripts on the Internet and broadcasts Chamber debates on television.

Party Standings: Liberal 75; New Democratic 2; Independent Liberal 2. ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) ....................................................................... Shuswap Anderson, Val J. (L) .............................................................Vancouver-Langara Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)............................................. Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Pat (L).........................................................................Prince George North Belsey, Bill (L).................................................................................

North Coast Bennett, Bill (L) ........................................................................... East Kootenay Bhullar, Tony (Ind. L) ................................................................. Surrey-Newton Bloy, Harry (L).................................................................................. Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).........................................Prince George–Mount Robson Bray, Jeff (L)......................................................................Victoria–Beacon H ill Brenzinger, Elayne (L) ...............................................................

Surrey-Whalley Brice, Susan (L) ............................................................................Saanich South Bruce, Hon. Graham P. (L)................................................ Cowichan-Ladysmith Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L)............................................. Vancouver–Point Grey Cheema, Hon. Gulzar S. (L) ..........................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Chong, Ida (L)................................................................ Oak Bay–Gordon Head Christensen, Tom (L) .............................................................

Okanagan-Vernon Chutter, Dave (L) ........................................................................... Yale-L illooet Clark, Hon. Christy (L) ..................................................Port Moody–Westwood Cobb, Walt (L) ............................................................................. Cariboo South Coell, Hon. Murray (L) ........................................ Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L) .............................................. Fort Langley–Aldergrove Collins, Hon.

Gary (L).........................................................Vancouver-Fairview de Jong, Hon. Michael (L)....................................... Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) .......................................................... Surrey-Cloverdale Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ................................................................... Comox Valley Halsey-Brandt, Hon. Greg (L) ..................................................Richmond Centre Hamilton, Arnie (L)............................................................Esquimalt-Metchosin Hansen, Hon.

Colin (L) .....................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Harris, Roger (L)......................................................................................Skeena Hawes, Randy (L) ............................................................ Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Hon. Sindi (L).......................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ................................................................... Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Hon. Gordon (L) ........................................................

Surrey–White Rock Hunter, Mike (L) ...................................................................................Nanaimo Jarvis, Daniel (L)...................................................... North Vancouver–Seymour Johnston, Ken (L)............................................................ Vancouver-Fraserview Kerr, Brian J. (L).............................................................. Malahat–Juan de Fuca Krueger, Kevin (L).................................................

Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ...............................Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lee, Richard T. (L).......................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L)................................................................. Peace River South Les, John (L) .......................................................................... Ch illiwack-Sumas Locke, Brenda (L) ...........................................................

Surrey–Green Timbers Long, Harold (L) ...................................................Powell River–Sunshine Coast MacKay, Dennis (L)....................................................... Bulkley Valley–Stikine McMahon, Wendy (L).............................................Columbia River–Revelstoke MacPhail, Joy (NDP) ..........................................................

Vancouver-Hastings Manhas, Karn (L) .............................................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Masi, Reni (L) ...................................................................................Delta North Mayencourt, Lorne (L) ..........................................................Vancouver-Burrard Murray, Hon. Joyce (L) ........................................................... New Westminster Nebbeling, Hon. Ted (L) .......................................... West Vancouver–Garibaldi Nettleton, Paul (Ind. L)..................................................Prince George–Omineca Neufeld, Hon.

Richard (L)...................................................... Peace River North Nijjar, Rob (L)...................................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Nuraney, John (L) ...............................................................Burnaby-W illingdon Orr, Sheila (L) ...........................................................................Victoria-Hillside Penner, Barry (L)....................................................................... Ch illiwack-Kent Plant, Hon. Geoff (L) ......................................................... Richmond-Steveston Reid, Hon.

Judith (L)............................................................Nanaimo-Parksv ille Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ................................................................... Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L) ................................................................ Kamloops Roddick, Valerie (L)..........................................................................Delta South Sahota, Patty (L).....................................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Santori, Hon. Sandy (L)..............................................West Kootenay–Boundary Stephens, Hon.

Lynn (L) ........................................................................ Langley Stewart, Ken (L)...................................................... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Stewart, Richard (L) ...................................................... Coquitlam-Maillardville Suffredine, Blair F. (L) ................................................................Nelson-Creston Sultan, Ralph (L)....................................................... West Vancouver–Capilano Thorpe, Hon.

Rick (L) ..........................................................Okanagan-Westside Trumper, Gillian (L)................................................................Alberni-Qualicum van Dongen, John (L).........................................................Abbotsford-Clayburn Visser, Rod (L).................................................................................North Island Weisbeck, John (L).........................................................Kelowna–Lake Country Whittred, Hon.

Katherine (L) ...................................North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wilson, John (L)........................................................................... Cariboo North Wong, Patrick (L)............................................................Vancouver-Kensington LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn................................................................John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman ..............................................Hon.

Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum.......................................................................G illian Trumper Bulkley Valley–Stikine ..............................................................Dennis MacKay Burnaby North..............................................................................Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds............................................................................Patty Sahota Burnaby-Willingdon......................................................................

John Nuraney Burquitlam ........................................................................................ Harry Bloy Cariboo North ..................................................................................John Wilson Cariboo South .................................................................................... Walt Cobb Chilliwack-Kent ............................................................................. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas .................................................................................

John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke....................................................Wendy McMahon Comox Valley .......................................................................... Hon. Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville .............................................................Richard Stewart Cowichan-Ladysmith .......................................................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Delta North.......................................................................................... Reni Masi Delta South................................................................................

Valerie Roddick East Kootenay .................................................................................. Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin...................................................................Arnie Hamilton Fort Langley–Aldergrove ..................................................... Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops ....................................................................... Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson ........................................................Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country...............................................................

John Weisbeck Kelowna-Mission ................................................................ Hon. Sindi Hawkins Langley ............................................................................... Hon. Lynn Stephens Malahat–Juan de Fuca .....................................................................Brian J. Kerr Maple Ridge–Mission ................................................................... Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows .............................................................Ken Stewart Nanaimo..........................................................................................

Mike Hunter Nanaimo-Parksville ...................................................................Hon. Judith Reid Nelson-Creston.......................................................................Blair F. Suffredine New Westminster ..................................................................Hon. Joyce Murray North Coast ........................................................................................Bill Belsey North Island........................................................................................Rod Visser North Vancouver–Lonsdale.......................................... Hon.

Katherine Wh ittred North Vancouver–Seymour .............................................................Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head .......................................................................Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon .................................................................... Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside.................................................................Hon. Rick Thorpe Peace River North .............................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South .......................................................................

Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley ....................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain.................................................... Karn Manhas Port Moody–Westwood......................................................... Hon. Christy Clark Powell River–Sunshine Coast.......................................................... Harold Long Prince George North................................................................................Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson................................................Hon.

Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca................................................................Paul Nettleton Richmond Centre......................................................... Hon. Greg Halsey-Brandt Richmond East .......................................................................... Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ................................................................ Hon. Geoff Plant Saanich North and the Islands ............................................... Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South...................................................................................

Susan Brice Shuswap .............................................................................. Hon. George Abbott Skeena.............................................................................................Roger Harris Surrey-Cloverdale ................................................................. Hon. Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers .................................................................. Brenda Locke Surrey-Newton ............................................................................... Tony Bhullar Surrey–Panorama Ridge................................................. Hon.

Gulzar S. Cheema Surrey-Tynehead .......................................................................... Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley ...................................................................... Elayne Brenzinger Surrey–White Rock ...............................................................Hon. Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard................................................................. Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview............................................................... Hon.

Gary Co llins Vancouver-Fraserview ...................................................................Ken Johnston Vancouver-Hastings .......................................................................Joy MacPhail Vancouver-Kensington...................................................................Patrick Wong Vancouver-Kingsway..........................................................................Rob Nijjar Vancouver-Langara....................................................................Val J.

Anderson Vancouver–Mount Pleasant............................................Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ................................................... Hon. Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena............................................................ Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill.............................................................................Jeff Bray Victoria-Hillside.................................................................................. Sheila Orr West Kootenay–Boundary.................................................... Hon.

Sandy Santori West Vancouver–Capilano ..............................................................Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi ................................................. Hon. Ted Nebbeling Yale-Lillooet .................................................................................. Dave Chutter

CONTENTS Thursday, April 3, 2003 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introductions by Members....................................................................................................... ............................................... 5979 Introduction and First Reading of Bills ........................................................................................ ......................................... 5979 Health Services Statutes Amendment Act, 2003 (Bill 33) Hon. C.

Hansen Statements (Standing Order 25B).............................................................................................................................. .............. 5980 Partnership network for community fundraising P. Wong Nursing partnership program P. Sahota Museum Act and heritage legacy fund S. Orr Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ......................................................... 5981 Availability of health supplements for disability benefits recipients J. MacPhail Hon. M.

Coell Renewing funding for the lower mainland treaty advisory committee (LMTAC) H. Long Hon. G. Plant Comments on Accenture by Energy and Mines minister P. Nettleton Downstream benefits from power projects G. Trumper Hon. R. Thorpe Transfer of patients from Gorge Road Hospital S. Orr Hon. K. Whittred Salvage logging J. Wilson Hon. M. de Jong Release of documents in former Agriculture, Food and Fisheries minister investigation J. MacPhail Hon. G. Plant Border crossings and B.C.–U.S. trade J. Les Hon. G.

Halsey-Brandt Reports from Committees ........................................................................................................ ............................................... 5984 Special Committee of Selection, first report, fourth session of the thirty-seventh parliament Hon. G. Collins Committee of the Whole House ................................................................................................... .......................................... 5984 Procurement Services Act (Bill 23) Hon. S.

Santori Reporting of Bills............................................................................................................. ......................................................... 5984 Procurement Services Act (Bill 23) Third Reading of Bills......................................................................................................... ..................................................... 5984 Procurement Services Act (Bill 23)

Committee of Supply ............................................................................................................ ................................................... 5985 Estimates: Management of public funds and debt Estimates: Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection (continued) J. MacPhail Hon. J. Murray B. Kerr S.

Orr Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply ............................................................................................................ ................................................... 6001 Estimates: Ministry of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services (continued) T. Christensen Hon. G. Abbott L. Mayencourt R. Hawes J. Bray R. Stewart P. Sahota

5979 THURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 The House met at 2:04 p.m. Introductions by Members P. Wong: I'm honoured to introduce several guests in the gallery today. They are all attending a master's degree program for public administration at the Uni- versity of British Columbia since last fall. After gradu- ating this summer, they will return to our B.C. sister province, Guangdong province in the People's Repub- lic of China, to serve their government. [1405] The group is led by Ms. Kaiyuan Tao, Senior Judge and Associate Chief Justice of the High Court of Guangdong province.

Other members include Bin Chen, Senior Judge and Associate Chief Judge of Guangzhou Maritime Court, Guangdong province; Mr. Yuliang Li, director of the organization division of Zhanjiang Port Affairs Bureau; and Mr. Jian Chen, deputy director of the justice publicity division of Guangdong Provincial Justice Department. May the House please make them most welcome. R. Lee: Mr. Speaker, I also have the honour to in- troduce some officials from the People's Republic of China who are pursuing advanced studies in British Columbia.

They are leaders in science and technology administration in China: Dehua Chen, vice-president of administrative committee of Zhongkai high-tech z o n e o f H u i z h o u C i t y ; Z h i h u a L i a n g , d i r e c t o r o f s c i - ence and technology division of Guangdong Provin- cial Construction Department; and Yimin Lin, direc- tor-general of Shantou Municipal Science and Tech- nology Bureau. Would the House please join me to give our distin- guished visitors the warmest welcome. S. Brice: In the gallery today are 26 grade 5 stu- dents from Lochside Elementary with their teacher, Ms. Keeb.

Not only is Lochside Elementary in my riding of Saanich South, it is also in my neighbourhood, so I ask the House to make them welcome. I. Chong: I join with my two colleagues, the mem- bers for Vancouver-Kensington and for Burnaby North, in welcoming some visitors from the People's Republic of China. We had the pleasu re of havi ng them join us for lunch today, and I know they very much like being in our beautiful province and are enjoying their studies at the University of British Columbia. I would like to introduce Huijun Chen.

She's the vice-president of the Workers Union of the Guang- dong Provincial Economic and Trade Commission. She's commonly referred to and has adopted the western name of Karen. Also, Zhixiong Shen, who is the director, general planning office of the Guang- dong Provincial Information Industry Department, and Junfa Guo, director of science and technology division of Guangdong Provincial Transportation Department, and he has a common western name, known as Mike. Would the House please make them welcome. B. Kerr: In the gallery today is Lara Harker, Sara Kubica, Tannis McDonnell, Kelly McLeod and Heather Russell.

They're here from the Frances Kelsey Secon- dary School debating team, along with their teacher, Phil Archer, and parent volunteer, C.J. Kubica. They've done a tour of the museum; they've had a visit to the Legislature. Because they're on the debating team, they've come to watch question period to hear the thrust and parry of intelligent debate during question period, so I hope the House will make them feel very welcome. B.

Suffredine: W e h a v e a m e m b e r o f t h i s H o u s e who believes that under the constitution and in accor- dance with the Magna Carta, everyone is entitled to hunt and fish on their birthday. He's getting on in years. He's not as old as the Minister of Sustainable Resources; he's not even as old as you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Order! [Laughter.] B. Suffredine: He's not old enough to receive con- gratulatory letters from the Prime Minister or the Queen, but he's well into the second half of his first century.

I know the member for East Kootenay would appreciate this House wishing him a happy birthday or happy hunting and fishing on his birthday today, and a happy birthday sitting by his coal-fired fireplace. L. Mayencourt: I have a couple of friends here in the gallery, just looking up there. The first is Daniel Fontaine. Daniel was the constituency assistant to the Minister of Health in another life and is now with Western Brewers Association. Beside him is Mark Jiles. Mark is an incredible campaigner who worked very, very hard on the yes committee for the Olympic bid.

He was also the campaign manager for the member for Vancouver–Point Grey and did a pretty good job of getting him elected. So I would just ask the House to please make them welcome. [1410] Introduction and First Reading of Bills HEALTH SERVICES STATUTES AMENDMENT ACT, 2003 Hon. C. Hansen presented a message from Her Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Health Services Statutes Amendment Act, 2003. Hon. C. Hansen: I move that the bill be introduced and read a first time now. Motion approved.

5980 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 Hon. C. Hansen: I'm pleased to introduce the Health Services Statutes Amendment Act, 2003, which will ensure appropriate MSP billings, update legisla- tion around hospital funding and improve our ability to ensure food safety. I would first like to mention the amendments to the Medicare Protection Act to better protect our health care dollars. The amendment will speed up the process for following up with physicians who have irregular billings. It will allow us quicker remedies in those rare cases where the Medical Services Plan may have been overbilled.

Occasionally, there are cases where patients are overserviced, and consequently the Medical Ser- vices Plan is billed for more care than is appropriate. We expect these changes will result in faster resolution of hearings that could potentially result in cancellation or restriction of a physician's right to bill the Medical Services Plan. The ministry will also have recourse to order me- diation to resolve disputes regarding MSP billings, if necessary. These changes will reduce hurdles we face currently in ensuring that there is proper accountability to the public.

Secondly, the bill will update the language in the Hospital Insurance Act. Some of our older legislation refers to outdated business practices that existed prior to regionalization being introduced to our health care system. This bill will amend the Hospital Insurance Act to reflect the fact that hospital funding now flows through the health authorities, and previously these funds went directly to hospitals. Finally, the bill will revise the Food Safety Act to protect the public from harm.

The amendment will allow licensing officers to review proposed alterations to existing food preparation facilities and renovations to new and existing food establishments. We are doing this to ensure that the public's well-being is not ad- versely affected by construction practices in premises where food is being prepared. These changes ensure that health-related legislation is up to date and appro- priate. I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill 33 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Statements (Standing Order 25

B) PARTNERSHIP NETWORK FOR COMMUNITY FUNDRAISING P. Wong: Having represented the riding of Van- couver-Kensington for nearly two years now, I have met with many disadvantaged groups that are desper- ately in need of financial help to build a better commu- nity. Parents have told me that they recycled bottles and cans for three months to help students for a sports day, yet they were able to raise only $300. They have drained their resources, but the money generated was dismal. They are in need of assistance from the com- munity at large.

The good news is that there are many individuals and organizations willing to help. Several volunteers came to form the Better Community Part- n e r s h i p O u t r e a c h N e t w o r k , o r B C P O N . T h e y a r e Johnny Fong, a philanthropist; Bennie Yung, a busi- nessman; and Bill Lim, a lawyer. We intend to use this network to breach the gap between groups in financial needs and those groups that have the funds or means to help.

I'm pleased to announce that the Vancouver Oakridge Lions Club is the first sponsor partner and has agreed to set up a fundraising event to raise $5,000 for the South Vancou- ver Police Community Association. This is a good start for a community group to help each other. There are several other groups that require financial help. They understand the government is doing all it can to restore our province's fiscal health and, as such, cannot pro- vide funding to all the worthwhile groups. However, they must continue their efforts to raise funds to make contributions to the community.

I am pleased to inform the House that we have re- ceived many inquiries that are willing to participate in the partnership network. It's my sincere hope that if this network pilot project is successful, I can share this working experience with my colleagues. I will post this information on my constituency website soon. I would also like to thank the individuals that form the com- munity network, BCPON, and the sponsor partners already on board. [1415] NURSING PARTNERSHIP PROGRAM P. Sahota: Recently I had the great pleasure to be part of a very special ceremony at the UBC school of nursing.

UBC hosted four exchange students from the Guru Nanak college of nursing from Punjab, India. Dur- ing their stay here the four young women attended classes, observed clinical practice and learned about some of the research projects that are underway at the school. Last week the four students headed back to In- dia, taking back with them knowledge, technical know- how and a Canadian educational experience that will make them great contributors to their own country. These relationships and partnerships are unique, special and inspirational.

This partnership is about a very special group of people who want to make the education of young women a priority in a part of the world that is still struggling. Due to the involvement of the UBC school of nursing and people like the founder, Mr. Budh Singh Dhahan, this international partnership has flourished. In addition, UBC is helping the college become an internationally recognized baccalaureate degree institution of nursing, because then the students are more prepared and eligible for registration interna- tionally.

This partnership is also very aware that there are many challenges with brain drain, so it has put specific

THURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5981 strategies in place to avoid the potential to drain hu- man or other resources. The active participation of people like Dr. Sally Thorn, who is a director at UBC school of nursing, Sarup Mann, Ajmer Mann, Ajit Thandi, Barj Dhahan, Balbir Gurm and many others not only contributes greatly to our society here in Can- ada, but they rise to the occasion to address the chal- lenges that are global. These people have the foresight and the vision to help foster the development of educa- tion for women in India, so they, too, can reach their highest potential.

I am privileged to know them, and I wish them much success in the future. MUSEUM ACT AND HERITAGE LEGACY FUND S. Orr: When I get excited about something, I like to make sure that everyone knows about it. K. Krueger: It's true. S. Orr: I think if I was younger, fitter, cuter and had different coloured hair, I would be a cheerleader. Let me tell you what I'm pumped about: the new Museum Act and the new B.C. heritage legacy fund. Both of these initiatives have been championed by the Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services. Our culture is the soul of our society.

Everything we can do to protect it enhances our lives. I know that the constituents of Victoria-Hillside would agree with me. The Museum Act now opens the doors to enable our museum to go after bigger and better exhibits. Many world-famous exhibits are hesitant to come, as they do not want to deal with governments but prefer to negotiate with independent bodies. The museum is a treasure, and it now has the tools to deal on the world stage. We will all benefit from this when we get to experience all sorts of large, exciting, interesting and world-famous exhibits.

The heritage legacy fund with its partners, the Heri- tage Society of B.C. and the Land Conservancy, now allows communities to take leadership in heritage con- servation. Again, we will all benefit as we protect our history. Well done, minister. It was long overdue. In an- other cultural language — Australia: "Good on ya." Oral Questions AVAILABILITY OF HEALTH SUPPLEMENTS FOR DISABILITY BENEFITS RECIPIENTS J. MacPhail: My questions follow up on the theme of the private statement from the member from Kensington. Corrinnia Laurie is a constituent of mine. She's a single mom with two kids.

She's on disability assis- tance. The ministry, thankfully, didn't force her to go through the disability review. Ms. Laurie needs a kid- ney transplant and must stay on a low-sodium diet. She needs expensive nutritional supplements merely to stay alive, but the Minister of Human Resources will not help cover the cost. To the minister: can he explain why Ms. Laurie would be turned down for nutritional supplements that will save her life, and how many more people like Ms. Laurie are being turned away? Hon. M.

Coell: As the member knows, I can't dis- cuss individual cases, but I will assure her that I will review that case for her. Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a supplementary question. [1420] J. MacPhail: One of Ms. Laurie's children, Isabella, was born prematurely, and she suffers from serious health issues. She's one year old, and her pediatrician says she needs expensive, special baby formula. Her pediatrician submitted a letter asking the ministry to provide Isabella with the necessary formula, but the ministry wrote back and denied the request.

They said that the baby was too old, just over a year, and there- fore ineligible. They said there was no medical justifica- tion. They told her she should use her disability funds to buy regularly priced formula. Can the Minister of Human Resources explain why his ministry would deny a baby a special supplement for baby formula? How much could that possibly cost? Hon. M. Coell: A s I ' v e s a i d t o t h e m e m b e r , I w i l l have that case reviewed for her. J. MacPhail: Well, I appreciate that the minister says he will look into this issue, but he'd better move quickly. In desperation, Ms.

Laurie is asking for money on the street to buy formula for her child's needs. She is not willing to compromise the health of her baby daughter by waiting for the appeal process. She is on the street panhandling right now. Again to the Minister of Human Resources. Can he explain how his government could be so cold-hearted that it would deny a baby specialized formula that it needs to stay healthy, forcing that baby's mother to ask for money on the street? Hon. M.

Coell: As I said, privacy laws in this prov- ince don't allow me to speak about individual cases in this House, but I'll assure the member I will review the situation. RENEWING FUNDING FOR THE LOWER MAINLAND TREATY ADVISORY COMMITTEE (LMTAC) H. Long: I'd like to ask a public written question submitted by Ed Steeves, chairman of the Sunshine Coast regional district, to the Minister Responsible for Treaty Negotiations. Further to the declaration made in the February 11 Speech from the Throne, the Minister Responsible for

5982 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 Treaty Negotiations emphasized the government's re- newed commitment to revitalize the treaty process.

Given the fact that your government is committed to recognizing local government as a legitimate third level of government and that the local government consid- erations are a crucial aspect in treaty settlements, when will the provincial government renew their previous funding commitment to the lower mainland treaty ad- visory committee to ensure that local governments' positions and positive input into these critical negotia- tions will again be articulated? Hon. G. Plant: I want to express my thanks to Mr. Steeves for submitting the question.

Yes, government is committed to doing what we can to revitalize and rein- vigorate the treaty process in British Columbia, and local governments have a very important role. We have an obligation, as a provincial government, to listen to local government and to try to give effect to their inter- ests at the table. We don't have the funds at the moment that will a l l o w u s t o s u p p o r t t h e v e r y g o o d w o r k t h a t i s b e i n g done by the lower mainland treaty advisory commit- tee.

From time to time we have been able to fund spe- cific tables around the province in a few areas where that's been needed to ensure that the local government discussion is a good one, and we are always willing to look at those opportunities when they arise. I have to say that government truly appreciates the work of the lower mainland treaty advisory committee, and I hope they will continue.

I hope the individuals who are the members of that committee will continue to devote the time and the energy that they do devote to ensuring that we, as a provincial government, get the benefit of their insight into these important questions. COMMENTS ON ACCENTURE BY ENERGY AND MINES MINISTER P. Nettleton: I was absolutely astounded at the answers I received from the Minister of Energy and Mines in the late sitting of the Legislature Wednesday night, which was last night.

I was confronting the min- ister on the issue of Accenture appointments to the board of newly formed Accenture Business Services of British Columbia, which has taken over the manage- ment services of B.C. Hydro. Responding to my questions regarding whether the minister was aware of Accenture's history, especially in connection to the reported connections with Arthur Andersen and Enron, the minister stated: "It's obvi- ously no secret that Accenture and Arthur Andersen were a business before.

I think we have to move for- ward from there, and we should not say that anyone that ever worked for Andersen Consulting, Arthur Andersen or Enron are all bad people. Obviously we know the name," he went on to say. "I've confirmed the name, and that should answer the question." [1425] My question is: will someone, will anyone on the government side of the House, act immediately to pro- tect the interests of British Columbians in this sordid affair and demand this minister's resignation? DOWNSTREAM BENEFITS FROM POWER PROJECTS G. Trumper: I have a question for the Minister of Competition, Science and Enterprise.

On Vancouver Island there has been a great deal of discussion about the need for more power generation, and within the discussions around power generation, the potential for downstream benefits is often emphasized. Could the minister explain to my constituents what the down- stream benefits are, who owns them and how the prov- ince benefits from them? Hon. R. Thorpe: Downstream benefits are half of the additional electricity generated in the United States as a result of dams built in the Kootenays during the 1960s. These benefits are owned by the province of British Columbia.

These benefits returned almost $360 million to the provincial government when sold on the open market in the fiscal year 2001-02. That's $360 mil- lion that went to the priorities of our government — namely, health care and education. Government must ensure that it gets the greatest re- turn from these assets that is possible from the down- stream benefits. For example, in the past two months we have received upwards of $85 per megawatt-hour of elec- tricity through sales of the downstream benefits. This is almost three times what we would have received if these benefits had been sold at B.C.

Hydro's current industrial rate. Government must ensure that this legacy for British Columbians is there for all the interests of all British Co- lumbians. That is why we are focusing our efforts on get- ting the best financial return for all British Columbians. TRANSFER OF PATIENTS FROM GORGE ROAD HOSPITAL S. Orr: M y q u e s t i o n i s t o t h e M i n i s t e r o f S t a t e f o r Intermediate, Long Term and Home Care. Patients from the Gorge Road Hospital, which is in my riding, are currently being transferred to other local facilities.

Some of my constituents have expressed concern that the residents of the Gorge Road Hospital, who have received excellent care at that facility over many years, will not receive the same quality of care at the facilities they are being transferred to. I ask the minister: where are these patients going, and what level of care will they receive? Hon. K. Whittred: I would like to assure the mem- ber that the patients from Gorge Road will certainly be cared for at the same level they have been accustomed to. In fact, Gorge Road Hospital is quite an obsolete facility. It has been slated for closure for several years.

I'm really happy to announce that the new Mount St. Mary facility has been opened. I had the pleasure of attending the opening just the other week, and the

THURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5983 residents were delighted with their new surroundings. They are in a modern, up-to-date facility suitable for their care. SALVAGE LOGGING J. Wilson: My question today is for the Minister of Forests. A major part of good forest stewardship involves the removal of windthrown and insect- or beetle-infested timber known as salvage timber. It provides three major benefits if it's addressed properly. First, it adds a valuable source of fibre to the market. Second, and importantly, it protects the health of our aging forests.

Third, it provides a considerable number of jobs in the harvesting sector because of the low-volume production. M a n y p e o p l e h a v e b e e n p l e a d i n g f o r a g o o d s a l - vage program for years. Up until now it has been ad hoc at best, varying from district to district. Can the Minister of Forests tell us if he is prepared to addre ss the small-scale salvage in British Columbia? Hon. M. de Jong: Thanks to the member for the question.

He alludes to an issue that has not received a great deal of public attention since the forest revitaliza- tion plan was unvei led l ast week but is a very impor- tant part.

The member has correctly identified the fact that not only do British Columbians expect the fibre we grow here to be processed here, but they expect us to maximize the fibre that we harvest, including salvage. [1430] I'm pleased to remind all members that thanks to the work of the members for Cariboo North, Okanagan-Vernon, Prince George North, Skeena and other members — Kamloops, as well, the shy, retiring member from Kamloops — that small-scale salvage is very much a part of this revitalization program to the extent that we have, on the advice of communities, created or are in the process of creating a new commu- nity salvage tenure that will ensure there is enhanced access to that salvaged fibre and ensure that we im- plement this in a way that maximizes those benefits.

The member for Prince George North and the member for Cariboo North will serve on a committee of MLAs to liaise with all members of the salvage community to ensure we meet our objectives. RELEASE OF DOCUMENTS IN FORMER AGRICULTURE, FOOD AND FISHERIES MINISTER INVESTIGATION J. MacPhail: Given that the special prosecutor has decided not to press criminal charges against the for- mer Fisheries minister, the government should have no trouble tabling all documents relating to the investiga- tion.

British Columbians still have the right to know why the former minister tipped off a fish farmer about an investigation into its practices. Will the Attorney General please table those documents today? Hon. G. Plant: The usual practice, which is going to be followed in this case, is that the work done by a spe- cial prosecutor in respect of potential criminal investi- gation is privileged, and as I say, I think it would be good to respect that practice in this case.

I'm not aware of any documents the member refers to that would fall outside the scope of the work done to investigate a criminal matter by the special prosecutor, but if there are documents she believes are in the hands of other ministries that are or ought to be a matter of public record, then she could certainly make inquiries of those ministries. BORDER CROSSINGS AND B.C.–U.S. TRADE J. Les: My question is for the Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations. My constituency, like most of British Columbia, is heavily dependent on trade with the United States.

However, in the light of current events, many of my constituents are concerned that cross-border trade will suffer, costing individuals and businesses time and money. Can the minister in- form this House what is being done by our government to ensure that the free flow of goods across the U.S. border is maintained? Hon. G. Halsey-Brandt: As the member is aware, the border is a federal responsibility. However, the provincial government has been actively engaging many American officials on this issue.

As you know, the Premier met just last week met with Ambassador Cellucci to convey the importance to the Americans of the free flow of goods across our border. I also attend the Canadian-American Border Trade Alliance meet- ings and continue to push Canadian and American officials wherever possible to create a more efficient border.

We've recognized the legitimate concerns that both Canadians and Americans have over security, and in fact the province has been actively working with Ca- nadian and U.S. security officials to make sure that any cargo leaving the port of Vancouver and going across the border is, in fact, secure. Finally, I'm very proud, as has been mentioned before, that our government has approved $130 million towards the improvement of border infrastructure. This investment will significantly increase the capacity of our border crossings. [End of question period.] Mr.

Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition rises on a point of order. Point of Order J. MacPhail: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order to seek your guidance with respect to a matter raised in the estimates debate of the Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection. Last night in debate I asked the minister if she was the lead for this government on making submissions to

5984 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 the National Energy Board's hearings on the Sumas 2 project. The minister replied: "The political lead on this issue is John van Dongen." I know the minister meant to say the member for Abbotsford-Clayburn, but my question to you is this.

If ministers of this government are passing on ministerial responsibilities to govern- ment caucus, private members, MLAs of the govern- ment, in what forum are those backbench MLAs ac- countable to the public for those responsibilities? [1435] My understanding of the standing orders of this House is that I am only able to put questions to the members of the executive council. I'm well aware that the line has been almost eliminated between this gov- ernment's ability to distinguish between executive and legislative functions of the government. But perhaps, Mr.

Speaker, after giving this some thought, you can shed some light on how the opposition can have ques- tions answered in estimates or in question period when the ministers of the Crown have abdicated their re- sponsibilities to a private member. I seek your guid- ance on it, and I await the answer. Mr. Speaker: Thank you. I'll take your point of or- der under advisement. Hon. G. Collins: First of all, the member opposite should raise a matter of order that occurred in commit- tee in the committee, not in the whole House, and I think she's aware of that.

S e c o n d o f a l l , I k n o w t h a t t h e M i n i s t e r o f W a t e r , Land and Air Protection will be prepared to answer her questions with regard to that issue to the best of her ability. If we require staff from the other ministries to provide answers, we'll endeavour to do that, as well, to make sure that the questions can be answered to the best of the ability or the willingness of the minister to provide answers to the member. Mr. Speaker: Thank you for your input. We'll come back to the House with a response in due course. Reports from Committees Hon. G.

Collins: I have the honour to present the first report of the Special Committee of Selection for the fourth session of the thirty-seventh parliament. I move that the report be taken as read and re- ceived. Motion approved. Hon. G. Collins: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave of the House to suspend the rules to permit the moving of a motion to adopt the report. Leave granted. Hon. G. Collins: I move that the report be adopted. Motion approved. Orders of the Day Hon. G. Collins: In committee A, I call Committee of Supply.

For the information of members, we'll be debating the estimates of the Ministry of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services. In this House, I call committee stage debate of Bill 23. Committee of the Whole House PROCUREMENT SERVICES ACT The House in Committee of the Whole (Section

B) on Bill 23; J. Weisbeck in the chair. The committee met at 2:39 p.m. Sections 1 to 8 inclusive approved. On

section 9. [1440] Hon. S. Santori: Hon. Chair, I move the amendment to

section 9 standing in my name on the orders of the day. [SECTION 9, in the proposed

section 9 by deleting "Minister of Finance and Corporate Relations" and substituting "Minister of Management Services".] Amendment approved.

Section 9 as amended approved. Sections 10 to 12 inclusive approved. Title approved. Hon. S. Santori: I move that the committee rise and report the bill complete with amendment. Motion approved. The committee rose at 2:41 p.m. The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. Reporting of Bills Bill 23, Procurement Services Act, reported com- plete with amendment. Third Reading of Bills Mr. Speaker: When shall the bill be considered as read? Hon. S. Santori: With leave, now. Leave granted. Bill 23, Procurement Services Act, read a third time and passed.

THURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5985 Hon. G. Collins: I call Committee of Supply. Committee of Supply The House in Committee of Supply B; J. Weisbeck in the chair. The committee met at 2:42 p.m. ESTIMATES: MANAGEMENT OF PUBLIC FUNDS AND DEBT Hon. G. Collins: I'm moving an amendment. I've already advised the Leader of the Opposition — a vote that was missed during the earlier estimates. I move vote 41. Vote 41: management of public funds and debt, $926,000,000 — approved. Hon. G.

Collins: I call estimates for the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection — or advise members that that will be taking place. I move the committee re- cess until 3 p.m. to await the arrival of the minister as well as the Leader of the Opposition. The committee recessed from 2:42 p.m. to 3:10 p.m. [J. Weisbeck in the chair.] ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF WATER, LAND AND AIR PROTECTION (continued) On vote 40: ministry operations, $98,712,000 (contin- ued). D. Hayer: I seek leave to make an introduction. Leave granted. Introductions by Members D.

Hayer: It gives me great pleasure to introduce 27 grade 11 students from the Fraser Heights Secondary School in my constituency of Surrey-Tynehead and their teachers, Mr. Tino D'Alfonso, Miss Sharon Shilliday and Glen Payne, visiting the House and parliament buildings today. Would the House please make them very wel- come. Debate Continued J. MacPhail: Under goal 1 of the service plan of the Ministry of Water, Land, and Air Protection, the minis- try promises to protect the environment and human health and safety by ensuring clean and safe water, land and air.

A subcategory of this goal is the objective to limit air pollution and contribute to meeting global at- mospheric objectives. Could the minister detail some of the policy that she hopes will achieve this objective? Point of Order Hon. J. Murray: The member opposite raised a point of order today in the House. I would like leave to re- spond to that before answering the question that was posed. The Chair: Proceed. Hon. J. Murray: The question was raised about the government's intervention in Sumas 2 and the National Energy Board hearings. There's a joint intervention.

The province is working closely with the city of Abbotsford. On the province's side, this complex issue is a team ef- fort. I am the lead on air quality issues. The Attorney General is the lead on legal issues. The Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations leads with issues around the relationship between British Columbia and Washington State, and the Minister of Energy and Mines leads on energy and power policy. The ministers work together as a team.

If the member opposite has questions relating to air quality — those technical aspects — I would advise the member to direct those questions to me; if the member has issues around legal complexities, to the Attorney General, and so forth. The group works as a team. They bring together a number of the pieces of the puzzle. Be- cause of the many aspects of this issue, the group is chaired by the member for Abbotsford-Clayburn, who is also the link with Abbotsford city and the other Fraser Valley MLAs. My comments yesterday attempted to reflect this complexity in this approach.

We believe it's a sensible approach, and the appropriate minister can be asked about the appropriate aspect of this very important issue — stopping the SE2 power plant from being built in the Fraser Valley airway. I expect that the member opposite will continue to support those efforts of this govern- ment. [1515] J. MacPhail: Well, thanks for the clarification. That was the question I asked last night. I was asking ques- tions on air quality, airshed. I was asking the minister that, and she referred me to someone else. Thank you for finally getting it right, I guess. Debate Continued J.

MacPhail: My question stands. Hon. J. Murray: T o s u p p o r t t h e g o a l o f c l e a n e r and safer air, the ministry is part of the team oppos- ing the SE2 power plant. The ministry leads local airshed planning with other partners in local areas where there are concerns. The ministry is doing technical work to improve our understanding of these issues. The ministry is leading a set of airshed characterizations as part of its work to develop a framework for improving air quality in British Co- lumbia.

5986 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 J. MacPhail: Is there a workplan that the ministry has developed — a coordinated and cohesive workplan to combat climate change? Hon. J. Murray: Government is working on a cli- mate change plan, yes. J. MacPhail: The government is working on a cli- m a t e c h a n g e p l a n . I s t h a t w o r k b e i n g d o n e i n a c c o r - dance with the federal government's commitments to the Kyoto protocol? Hon. J.

Murray: T h at wo rk i s b e i ng d o ne i n o rd e r to reduce greenhouse gas emissions in British Colum- bia, which supports the federal government's Kyoto protocol work. J. MacPhail: What aspects of the workplan will incorporate the federal government's commitments on Kyoto? Hon. J. Murray: The provincial plan will seek to work with the federal approach and not have overlaps and not have gaps. The federal plan has not been fully identified at this point. J. MacPhail: Maybe the minister can clarify: what are the province-specific policies? Hon. J. Murray: That policy is under development. J.

MacPhail: Is there a time frame for release? Hon. J. Murray: Our target is to have something by the end of June of this year. J. MacPhail: When is the next provincial-territorial ministers meeting dealing with this matter that either includes the federal government or doesn't? Hon. J. Murray: There are no joint ministers meet- ings on this planned at this point. The Canadian Coun- cil of Ministers of the Environment will be meeting in September, and that agenda has not yet been set. J. MacPhail: Is the minister implementing the rec- ommendations of the report contained in Updating B.C.

Provincial Air Quality Objectives and Options discussion paper? I think that was commissioned by the govern- ment. Hon. J. Murray: Government is seeking advice from a number of sources, and we don't recognize the particular study that the member has mentioned. [1520] J. MacPhail: Updating B.C. Provincial Air Quality Objectives and Options discussion paper. Okay, I'll get you a copy. It's a government-commissioned report, but I'd be happy to give the minister a copy. Well, let's just carry on then. Does the government intend to reach the Kyoto targets by the year 2008? Hon. J.

Murray: The setting of a target is something that will be part of our plan, which we intend to have in June. J. MacPhail: Yes, except that the plan doesn't de- cide the targets. I would assume that the minister starts by planning with a specific goal in mind. Or is it the reverse? Hon. J. Murray: We're still working to develop our target. The federal government did not assign targets to the provinces. The federal government's focus is working with the sectors across the country. J. MacPhail: O k a y . S o i t ' s t h e m i n i s t e r ' s v i e w t h a t the Kyoto protocol doesn't determine targets for 2008? Hon.

J. Murray: The Kyoto protocol determines a national target for 2008. The federal government is cre- ating an implementation plan to determine how to meet that target for Canada, and the federal govern- ment at this point has not assigned that target to each of the provinces. J. MacPhail: Is that a role the federal government is to play? Hon. J. Murray: The federal government is working actively with the various sectors and is having bilateral negotiations with those sectors as to how their contri- bution to greenhouse gases can be reduced. J.

MacPhail: How much money is the provincial government dedicating to combatting climate change in this budget? Hon. J. Murray: My ministry has seven staff dedi- cated to this. We will follow up with the actual dollars assigned to the climate change group. J. MacPhail: To go back to the point the minister just made about the federal involvement with the prov- inces and territories on setting targets. Have the bilat- eral meetings begun between the federal government and B.C. on setting targets? Hon. J. Murray: There have been no discussions with the federal government about a provincial target at this point.

We are having a meeting with the federal government representatives next week. J. MacPhail: How did the bilateral meetings start? Is this the beginning of the bilateral meetings to set targets on a provincial level? Hon. J. Murray: This is the beginning of the bilat- eral discussions with Canada. The subject of those dis- cussions and the agenda are yet to be determined.

THURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5987 [1525] J. MacPhail: Just so the ministry can find this report that I just referred to, it's entitled Updating B.C. Provin- cial Air Quality Objectives and Options, discussion paper, May 2002. It was commissioned by the Ministry of Wa- ter, Land and Air Protection — the water, air and cli- mate change branch. It was prepared by Robert Caton and David Bates. Hon. J. Murray: That discussion paper, as well as a number of other sets of information, will be looked at as we develop our airshed management strategy. J.

MacPhail: Is this government monitoring sea level rise? Hon. J. Murray: Yes, our staff are monitoring sea level rise. That was one of the factors in our climate change indicators report released last spring. J. MacPhail: Could the minister update the House on the results of the monitoring — changes, if any? Hon. J. Murray: That's technical information we don't have here. We will send the member a copy of that report. J. MacPhail: Is the government monitoring sea sur- face temperature? What, if any, are the results? Hon. J.

Murray: We can confirm whether sea sur- face temperatures are a part of the indicators being measured. Just for the member's benefit, that will be in the report. We'll make sure that she has a copy of it. J. MacPhail: Yesterday, in a very interesting discus- sion with the Minister of Energy around matters of air quality and greenhouse gas, he said that I should be reminded that the greatest contribution to greenhouse gas comes from vehicles. What has the Ministry of Wa- ter, Land and Air Protection done to reduce transporta- tion emissions? Hon. J.

Murray: The ministry has supported pro- grams like Go Green, bike awareness and commuter challenges, and has engaged with partners that have a delegated responsibility for air quality and emissions reduction, such as the GVRD. In terms of airshed man- agement and the work with the communities that have threatened airsheds, there is a transportation compo- nent. The ministry is working on a climate change plan that will bring together some of the issues around transportation emissions. [1530] J. MacPhail: What's the current status of vehicle emissions being regulated by the provincial govern- ment?

What has been the change in that area in the last year or whatever? I'm thinking more of the trends that are occurring, particularly on the west coast of the United States, about change in vehicle emissions. There's going to be a substantial change in regulation in that area, I think, next year — 2005. Where do we stand here in British Columbia? Hon. J. Murray: The federal government regulates vehicle emission standards. As they have become tougher, the provincial government is harmonizing with those standards. J. MacPhail: Could the minister please outline the trends that are occurring in that area? Hon. J.

Murray: For the member's information, there is an environmental trends report, 2002, that the ministry published in December. That has a wealth of information about environmental trends. I'd be happy to give the member the website address where that trends report and the technical information about what's happening with air quality trends will be — on that indicators report. J. MacPhail: Well, sorry. I was just wanting to put the information on the record for the public about what the trends are in vehicle emissions. Yes, I have been to the website at length.

What does the Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection think of the Minister of En- ergy's plan to pursue a voluntary goal to acquire 50 percent of new supply from alternative electricity sources? Is that sufficient, does she think, in addressing the climate change issues faced by the province of greenhouse gases arising from energy production? Hon. J. Murray: British Columbia is one of the low- est greenhouse gas emissions–producing provinces in the country, and I'm proud of that. In British Columbia B.C.

Hydro had a 10 percent renewable and clean en- ergy portfolio target prior to our energy policy, so I am very pleased to see a 500 percent increase in that goal. I know that is leading edge in North America. I would like to see us in British Columbia exceeding that goal and producing more than 50 percent of our new power from clean and renewable sources. The interest the private sector has shown in offering green power pro- jects to B.C. Hydro, I think, is very encouraging in terms of the potential for green and clean and renew- able energy in B.C. J.

MacPhail: Yes, I would agree with the minister if it indeed becomes a reality, as she subscribes. I subscribe to the same hope. It was interesting, though — the dis- cussion we had last night in the Energy estimates, par- ticularly around the Duke Point generating plant. I was pursuing with the minister the fact that this was going to be a natural gas–generated electricity plant. [1535] One of the reasons why British Columbia has such a wonderful record of low greenhouse gas emission is because most of our energy is produced by hydroelec- tricity.

In fact, beyond any other jurisdiction, I think, in North America, energy is produced by hydroelectric- ity.

5988 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 My point to the Minister of Energy was: couldn't we pursue a continuation of expansion of energy pro- duction through hydroelectricity rather than through natural gas production, which would continue our great record with greenhouse gas?

I talked about it in the context of the energy proposals that have come in, the green and clean energy proposals, but he said that the proposals didn't provide a consistent enough guar- antee of supply in order to allow him to use those pro- jects to make up for the 250 megawatts required as replacement only — just replacement megawatts — on Vancouver Island once the cables are no longer in use from the mainland to Vancouver Island. What's the minister's role in approving those green and clean projects around energy production? Hon. J.

Murray: If the project is over 50 megawatts, the environmental assessment process will be review- ing the project. My ministry permits projects and is working on in-stream flows to ensure that there's ade- quate water flow for fish in projects that involve mi- crohydro. I do want to just remind the member that the B.C. Utilities Commission will be reviewing any plans with respect to the Duke power plant.

Considering that it was her government that put this project on the books and made major, major financial commitments and pushed forward with this project in a very aggressive way before we were elected, I find it quite surprising — the vigour of her entreaties that this government not go forward with it. J. MacPhail: I w o u l d n ' t a d v i s e t h e m i n i s t e r t o g o down that road at all. We thoroughly debated that and put that issue to rest during the Ministry of Energy estimates. So I wouldn't advise her to go down that road at all.

I 'd b e h ap p y t o re v i e w i t wi t h he r ag a i n, b u t s he 's dead wrong. The project that was put forward by the previous government bears absolutely no resemblance at all in type of energy production, cost, location, jobs, cogeneration — no bearing whatsoever. We've covered all of that. If the minister wants to get into it, I'd be more than happy. She does seem to be a little touchy this afternoon on looking to spoil for a fight. I'm not. But I'd be more than happy to do it. Is the minister in- terested in reviewing the discussion? Hon. J.

Murray: If the member believes that has been fully canvassed in other estimates, then we'll leave it there. J. MacPhail: I d o hav e a q u e s t i o n aro u nd t he B . C . Utilities Commission hearing that will occur around the Duke Point power plant. The minister revealed yesterday — I was pleased to note — that B.C. Hydro will be putting forward the costs of transmission lines as an alternative to the Vancouver Island gas pipeline. What position will the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection take at the B.C.

Utilities Commission hearing on transmission lines or cable transmission of hydroelectricity versus the natural gas pipeline? Hon. J. Murray: Our role is not to take a position at the hearings. Our role is setting standards and making sure that they're enforced. Whichever project is ap- proved, that's what we'll be doing. [1540] J. MacPhail: Sorry — what standards? So the Minis- try of Water, Land and Air Protection won't be partici- pating in the B.C. Utilities Commission hearing on the environmental aspects of the Duke Point plant. Is that left entirely to the environmental assessment office? Hon. J.

Murray: My information is that we provide technical information if asked at the Utilities Commis- sion hearings. We don't have a role as an intervener, and this ministry hasn't in the past. With respect to the envi- ronmental assessment office process, we work with the environmental assessment office and provide informa- tion as needed. J. MacPhail: T h e s e r v i c e p l a n o f t h i s m i n i s t r y a l s o establishes an objective to protect water. How is the min- ister ensuring that the recent expansion of the energy industry to include coalbed methane does not affect wa- ter quality?

The Minister of Energy and I had quite a discussion on how coalbed methane production proceeds, but dis- cussions around standards were left to this ministerial estimates debate. Hon. J. Murray: I have had ministry staff working with Energy and Mines and the Oil and Gas Commission for the past 15 months to set standards for water with respect to coalbed methane. We've had staff dedicated full-time to looking at what the issues have been in other jurisdictions and how we can avoid environmental problems. We are developing a code of practice. It will be used by the oil and gas commissioner.

Any developments for coalbed methane will need to take into account both the quality and the quantity of the water that's being pumped out, and the receiving environment. J. MacPhail: What's the title of the job — the occu- pation classification of the ministry staff dedicated to this full-time — and how many FTEs are there? [1545] Hon. J. Murray: We had a biologist and an engineer from the Kootenay area leading this project. We had environmental protection staff from Nanaimo, envi- ronmental protection staff from Prince George and legislative staff in Victoria. Not all of these were full- time.

It was led by the two people in the Kootenays. We had a biologist in Victoria and engineers in Prince George and Victoria working on this. J. MacPhail: Will coalbed methane be another results-based industry?

THURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5989 Hon. J. Murray: A s w i t h s o m e o f t h e o t h e r s t a n - dards that the ministry has, some would describe this as results-based, and some might describe it as too pre- scriptive. That's a matter of perspective, I would say. J. MacPhail: I just wondered how the government was describing it. I've got some information from gov- ernment here. I guess I'll ask more questions, then, in terms of the stuff I have from the ministry. Has the minister committed resources to assess and combat dewatering?

Just for those who may be watch- ing or for the record, dewatering is when millions of gallons are removed from the ground and stored above the surface. That's what happens when coalbed meth- ane is produced. Dewatering removes a large amount of water from the aquifer, which will not be replaced for over 200 years. Sometimes when this occurs, the aquifer is permanently damaged and aggregate groundwater levels are lowered. I'm sure the minister knows this, because I got this information from the end of her service plan. What resources are committed to assess and combat dewatering with coalbed methane production?

Hon. J. Murray: Dewatering is a core issue that's addressed in the code of practice that the ministry staff have been working on. We, as a government, believe t h a t t h i s i s a n i n d u s t r y t h a t c a n b e d o n e s u s t a i n a b l y and without environmental damage, and that's why we've been preparing this code of practice. We will work with the Oil and Gas Commission to make sure that the monitoring and compliance activities take place as this new industry grows and provides eco- nomic benefits for heartlands communities across the province. [1550] J.

MacPhail: It's the Oil and Gas Commission that will actually be doing the compliance and enforcement around this code of practice? What is a code of practice versus regulation? What is the difference? Hon. J. Murray: A code of practice identifies what's expected, and it is a voluntary guideline. However, we are bringing amendments to the Waste Management Act to ensure that we can, if necessary, bring codes of practice under the Waste Management Act so that they can be enforced, if that's deemed necessary. J. MacPhail: What's the timing of all of this?

The government is going to be moving forward, from what I understand, pretty quickly on allowing coalbed methane production to expand. There are nine pilot projects in existence now, but the government, as we've discussed yesterday — and many members have made statements about — is going to expand it quickly. I want to know how quickly these codes of practice are going to be made enforceable, because here's my concern — and that's why I asked the minister about the Oil and Gas Commission doing the compliance and enforcement….

The last report that they have out, January and March 2002, shows that 38 to 40 percent of drilling companies active in B.C.'s north field failed to comply with sewage disposal and water protection r e g u l a t i o n s . T h o s e w e r e f r o m a u d i t s i n ' 0 2 . T h e n , o f course, that was in addition to the fact that the overall number of inspections in '02 totalled only about one- third of those undertaken in 2001.

There were 186 in- spections by the Oil and Gas Commission in 2002, and in the year 2001 there had been 540 inspections — so fewer inspections, but a failing grade of compliance of 38 to 44 percent of drilling companies. As the Minister of Energy points out very quickly, that's the oil and gas industry; this is different. I'm wondering how the minister is going to ensure (1) compliance and (2) that the trend isn't transferred to the coalbed methane production. Hon. J.

Murray: In response to the question of tim- ing, the code of practice has been signed off by both the deputies at this point, so this code of practice is pretty much ready to go. I would say that non-compliance is not acceptable in any industry. We strive to have 100 percent compliance in any activities that impact the environment, and we will be working towards that end. We will be cooperating with the Oil and Gas Commission to make sure that the compliance and enforcement in this industry, as in other industries, is in place and is working and is protecting the environ- ment. [1555] J.

MacPhail: The report on the Oil and Gas Com- mission review actually noted a significant increase in water-related violations — up to 44 percent in '02 from 13 percent in 2001. Those included a failure to obtain permits to haul water, taking excess volumes of water and removing water from beaver dams. Those are a couple of examples. The report goes on to say that the latter results in damage to wildlife must be stopped through all available means. The Minister of Energy took comfort in the fact that there would be four more compliance and enforcement officers hired by the Oil and Gas Commission.

Am I correct in saying that the compliance and enforcement around all of this will be in the hands of the Oil and Gas Commission for coal- bed methane production as well? Hon. J. Murray: In the past we've done compliance work jointly with the Oil and Gas Commission, and we'll continue to do that. J. MacPhail: So the ministry will have a role in compliance and enforcement around the coalbed meth- ane production, then? Hon. J. Murray: Yes, the ministry will have a role in auditing to ensure that appropriate compliance and enforcement is taking place. J.

MacPhail: The Oil and Gas Commission says it's added four additional compliance officers. Do you

5990 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 know how many in total there are, then, at the Oil and Gas Commission? Hon. J. Murray: No, I don't. J. MacPhail: On further issues around water quality and protection of water quality as it relates to coalbed methane production, does the minister know if, during coalbed methane production, water will be discharged into streams? [K. Stewart in the chair.] Hon. J. Murray: I believe it will, and the code will make sure the quantity and quality of water being dis- charged is within parameters that are safe for the envi- ronment. J.

MacPhail: One of the areas we explored last night was concern by farmers — ranchers, actually — in the area where there's also going to be coalbed methane production. They cited Hudson's Hope and Peace River. The Minister of Energy is up there tonight at- tending a public meeting on this matter. Their concerns were that water would be discharged into streams, but they were also concerned about water that maybe has a higher particle level in it being discharged onto fields, etc. Will water be impounded with coalbed methane production?

I was wondering, then, if the answer is yes: will the ministry require holding areas that would actually have to be lined with some sort of impermeable skin in order to protect against leaching? Hon. J. Murray: We're confident this industry can be developed in a way that is environmentally sustain- able. We're working on a code of practice that will en- sure that, which will address water quantity, water quality, the receiving environment — whether it's sur- f a c e o r g r o u n d . W e w i l l m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e c o d e o f practice is taken into account in the development of this industry.

We will audit, and if the member would like technical answers to the questions she posed, we can have staff brief her. J. MacPhail: Who would I get that briefing from? I thought that's what I was doing here. As I understand it, the expansion is going to happen very quickly. I'll just keep asking my questions, and whatever the minis- ter can answer is fine; and if not, we can save it for written answers. Will water be used for crops or on land range? [1600] Hon. J. Murray: Our intent is to have a result that is environmentally sustainable. If the water is clean….

I understand some of the coalbed methane has drinking water–quality water that is pumped out. We are look- ing for a particular result, and that's what the code will address. If it's safe to use the water that is emitted, then it will be used. J. MacPhail: From my research on coalbed methane production, I've also learned about methane venting. Who will monitor venting, and will there be any chargeback to the industry for monitoring of venting? Hon. J. Murray: Venting of gas would be the re- sponsibility of the Oil and Gas Commission. J.

MacPhail: How does the ministry receive com- munication reports from the Oil and Gas Commission? Are there regular meetings? Are there reports submit- ted back and forth? How does it occur? Hon. J. Murray: The deputy minister and the oil and gas commissioner meet. Our staff meet on a regu- lar basis, particularly in Prince George and Fort St. John. The agencies work cooperatively on a regular basis. J. MacPhail: The Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection service plan promises to reduce and remove toxins and waste that contaminate land.

The ministry's contaminated-sites panel produced an interim report in September 2002 and promised a final report in the spring of 2003. When does the minister expect this re- port to be finished? Hon. J. Murray: We've received the final report from the panel. We're working with it. When we make amendments to the Waste Management Act, we'll re- lease that report. J. MacPhail: Is that expected in this spring session? Hon. J. Murray: I'm certainly intending that it is going to take place in the spring session. J. MacPhail: What's the minister's opinion of the interim report? Hon. J.

Murray: I thought the interim report was an effective articulation of some of the problems and frus- trations with the current regime. It gave some recom- mendations for how we can clean up environmentally contaminated sites more quickly and more effectively. I thought it had some useful information to offer. J. MacPhail: I was interested to see how the interim report actually concentrates on the polluter-pay objec- tives. I thought that was very interesting.

However, it also did suggest that business shouldn't be entirely blamed, because the people of the province benefited from the efforts of the businesses — interesting com- ment. [1605] I'm wondering. It seems to me that there are several directions in which the final report can go, one of which is that the polluter-pay objectives continue. If the minister thinks the regime of administrating polluter- pay objectives is too complex, then she can offer up an achievement of those polluter-pay objectives in a more

THURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5991 streamlined way. Or else they could have a reduced polluter-pay scheme, where the emphasis is taken away from business to have to pay those costs, and the public absorbs those costs. I'll be interested to see how the final report comes out and how it's received by government. If there is a change in the polluter-pay concept such that business doesn't absorb those costs but the public does, I will be very curious to see how there will actu- ally be remediation of contaminated sites, because, of course, that would cost money.

If the public is paying for it, that means, I hope, that it would be out of the tax…. No, I'm sorry. I don't hope that at all. If it's a shift to the public, it means the taxpayer would pay, and that would be through government revenues. Gov- ernment doesn't have the revenues to do that, so I cer- tainly hope it's not the latter. How much money has the ministry committed to contaminated sites? Hon. J. Murray: For the current year the ministry has 32 staff that have responsibilities around contami- nated sites, and it's approximately $2.5 million. If the member needs…. J. MacPhail: I'm sorry. I missed that. Hon.

J. Murray: Approximately $2.5 million, 32 staff people. J. MacPhail: Does the ministry give the sites a rank- ing of no risk, limited risk and high risk on contami- nated sites? Hon. J. Murray: There are, effectively, high-risk, medium-risk and low-risk sites. We don't have a for- mal categorization of those differences. Currently, the regime requires us to treat all of them identically, no matter whether they are in fact a higher-risk or a low- risk site. J. MacPhail: Yes, but I do understand that inter- nally that categorization takes place.

Can the minister break down the informal categorization of sites then, according to how many are no-risk, how many are lim- ited-risk and how many are high-risk? Hon. J. Murray: We can get that information for the member. J. MacPhail: Okay. Good. When a site is designated as high risk, what actions does the ministry take? I'm particularly interested in what actions it takes when it's private land or Crown land. [1610] Hon. J. Murray: We're the regulator, whether it is Crown land or private land.

There are provisions for dealing with identifying and mediating contaminated sites that are in the Waste Management Act and the contaminated-sites regulation. We regulate according to those provisions. J. MacPhail: How is the public informed about the risk category of lands? Hon. J. Murray: There are currently no require- ments to distinguish high-risk sites under the current regulatory scheme. J. MacPhail: Yes, I'm aware it's an informal system. I have the information here about the informal system. Is the public informed…? Let's just put this in full context.

The auditor general released his audit of con- taminated sites, and that happened in the last year. It's happened since the last time we've had a chance to talk. The auditor general asked this ministry, in conjunc- tion with other ministries, to create a plan of action for contaminated sites. Part of that dealt with the plan of action of how the ministry would inform the public of contaminated sites. Where's the ministry at in prepar- ing that plan of action? Hon. J. Murray: T h e M i n i s t r y o f W a t e r , L a n d a n d Air Protection is the regulator for contaminated sites.

Sustainable Resource Management is actually the min- istry responsible for remediating and dealing with con- tamination on Crown land. The Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management will be leading the job of pre- paring the plan of action and will be working with our ministry on the technical side. The focus of that plan of action will be Crown land. J. MacPhail: Is this minister part of that team? Hon. J. Murray: Our ministry is o n that team. The deputy minister for Sustainable Resource Management is working on that plan. It will be discussed with our staff. Our staff will be involved.

It will be signed off at the deputy minister level. Then it will come to the min- isters, and so I will have a role at that time. J. MacPhail: What's the time frame for having that ready? Hon. J. Murray: That would be a question to direct to the estimates for Sustainable Resource Management. J. MacPhail: O k a y . I w a n t t o m o v e t o a i r q u a l i t y and climate change now. I want to discuss the air qual- ity issues that are faced around the province. The Sumas 2 power plant continues to be an issue for the people of the Fraser Valley.

I know this gov- ernment has dedicated resources to contest the national energy system's closeness to the U.S.–Canada border. I note that the Minister of Water, Land and Air Protec- tion service plan commits the ministry to oppose the Sumas 2 power project. The minister clarified her role in that earlier today, for which I thank her.

5992 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 How has the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Pro- tection continued to oppose the Sumas 2 power pro- ject? [1615] Hon. J. Murray: T h e M i n i s t r y o f W a t e r , L a n d a n d Air Protection was in the lead in applying for inter- vener status. The process has moved on since then. We now have the team working on the National Energy Board intervener process, and Water, Land and Air Protection is the lead on air quality aspects of this process. J.

MacPhail: I'm going to continue to ask my ques- tions, because the minister is the one that stands up here in question period and answers these questions when her own members ask them. She's quite comfort- able answering those questions, so I'm hoping she's going to be comfortable answering my questions. Has the minister or the government filed an appeal with the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency? Hon. J. Murray: Yes. Our government did file an appeal, and it was denied. J. MacPhail: How much money did the govern- ment spend on that request for appeal? Hon. J.

Murray: My ministry has invested ap- proximately $750,000 in this project to date. J. MacPhail: I'm just going to take a moment to do an introduction. I'm looking around here and trying to see where these people are. May I just have leave, Mr. Chair, to make an introduction? Leave granted. Introductions by Members J. MacPhail: Graeme Bowbrick, Julie Hewlett and their son Alex are in the gallery. Would the House please make them welcome. And if they're not in the House, they should be. Thank you very much. Debate Continued J.

MacPhail: So $750,000 — that's what the ministry has dedicated to the entire Sumas 2 project? Hon. J. Murray: That's correct. J. MacPhail: How many FTEs has the Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection dedicated to the Sumas 2 problem? Hon. J. Murray: Mr. Chair, I seek leave to make an introduction. Leave granted. Introductions by Members Hon. J. Murray: I would like the House to please welcome a friend and supporter and enthusiast of our government, Daniel Fontaine from New Westminster. Please make him welcome. Debate Continued Hon. J.

Murray: The ministry has had between one half-time FTE and two FTEs, full-time-equivalents, devoted to this. It will be various people at various times depending on the need of the project. J. MacPhail: One of the reasons why I'm exploring these issues…. I'll just quote from the debate exactly a year ago on this matter — well, sort of air quality, air pollution, etc. The minister said on April 11, 2002: "My view is that the issue really is about results and outcomes, and the results and outcomes we're seeking to achieve with respect to air is cleaner air quality. The ministry takes a lead on that issue.

It's one of our top priorities, and we will be working in a number of ways to ensure that the quality of air in British Columbia improves. [1620] "I appreciate the member's obvious deep concern for the issue of air emissions and air pollution. I concur that is one of the main focuses of environmental protection in this day and age. Air quality is very directly related to human health. In fact, the research is now showing that children's health is directly impacted by smog and air pollution. That's a great deal of concern for people in a number of airsheds in British Columbia.

The research is showing that air pollution doesn't just exacerbate conditions like asthma; it actually causes asthma in children. "Air quality is one of the top priorities for this ministry. The government has stated in the New Era document that cleaner air is one of its commitments. The ministry has a number of actions and policies related to air pollution and the reduction of air pollution, and that was canvassed in the estimates yesterday. "I'm clear that reducing air pollution is a top priority.

I understand that in the government's energy policy, issues such as air emissions and many, many other issues will be considered. That policy has not been brought forward yet. I will not be commenting on the content of the potential energy policy for this government at this time." That was last year. We're a year later. We have Sumas 2 moving on, and we have the energy policy in place. I'm just putting my questions in context for the minis- ter to know that we're a year later, and much has changed.

Should I be asking the Attorney General how many lawyers the government has committed to the National Energy Board review on Sumas 2, or does the minister know? Hon. J. Murray: There is a lawyer that the city of Abbotsford and the province are jointly funding in this intervention. I don't have the answer as to how many lawyers in the AG staff have attended to this file.

THURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5993 J. MacPhail: Has the government hired any expert witnesses? If so, how much did the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection pay for those services? Hon. J. Murray: The expenditure on expert wit- nesses would be part of the $750,000 the ministry has expended on this. We can get that breakout if the member wishes. J. MacPhail: How much money has the minister dedicated to fighting Sumas 2 for 2003-04? Hon. J. Murray: The ministry has dedicated $175,000 to this fight. J.

MacPhail: If the government's appeals to the Na- tional Energy Board fail — and we understand that…. Sorry. The minister gave me the information that the appeal to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has failed already. If the government's appeals to the National Energy Board fail, does the government have a contingency plan to reduce air pollution in the Fraser Valley? Hon. J. Murray: The ministry is developing its air planning framework. The ministry is also developing a climate change plan that will be addressing transporta- tion issues.

The ministry has a clean air issues paper on its website, which is a discussion paper to solicit input and ideas about reducing air pollution. I also know the member is aware that air quality in the GVRD area is an issue that is attended to by the GVRD, who have the delegated authority on that issue. [1625] J. MacPhail: Yes, TransLink is responsible for the GVRD area. However, it's my understanding that the airshed is much bigger than the area covered by trans- portation management, by TransLink. Is there no con- tingency plan specifically for a failure to prevent Sumas 2?

Will it just be part of the overall air quality planning? Hon. J. Murray: Yes. J. MacPhail: How will that look? It's interesting. The member from Chilliwack was quite assertive in the debate last night around Sumas 2. What's the timing of the air quality planning in relationship to the coming on stream of Sumas 2, if the appeal of this government fails? Hon. J. Murray: At this stage we're focused on winning the fight, as we have been since we were first elected. We've been taking that a step at a time.

We've been taking a very vigorous approach, because we strongly believe that's the wrong site for that facility, and we will continue to engage in that fight. We will make every effort to succeed with that. If we don't suc- ceed, then we will take stock and look at what our next step is. J. MacPhail: Will the FTEs within the ministry committed to the Sumas 2 power plant be reassigned elsewhere after the conclusion, whatever the outcome of this? Will they continue to concentrate on air quality in the Fraser Valley? Hon. J. Murray: Yes.

These are air quality staff, and they will be able to focus on improving air quality in other ways. J. MacPhail: First of all, let me ask this: am I correct in saying that it's TransLink that's responsible for air quality in the GVRD area, or is it the GVRD? Hon. J. Murray: It's the GVRD. J. MacPhail: What is the liaison between the GVRD and this ministry in ensuring high air quality? Of course, the airshed does cover more than just the GVRD. Hon. J. Murray: There's a joint committee at the staff level that meets regularly, which includes the GVRD and ministry staff.

There's an executive commit- tee that meets twice a year. The ministry and GVRD meet as well, as needed, on an issue-by-issue basis. [1630] J. MacPhail: I think it's safe to say in regard to Sumas 2, as the minister just articulated, they're look- ing for a positive outcome on their appeal. It's safe to say that the whole government is committed to im- proving air quality.

The Premier's letter to Governor Locke of Washington State says: "B.C. recognizes its own opportunities for action in this regard, and the province has undertaken a number of measures to im- prove air quality in the face of rapid growth in the most populated regions." That's from the Premier of B.C.'s letter to Governor Locke of Washington State. I think it's fair to say it looks like the government is living up to its commitment to limit air pollution and contribute to meeting global atmospheric objectives. Could the minister outline in a little bit more detail the specific programs the Premier was addressing?

Hon. J. Murray: I won't presume to interpret the Premier's letter, because I was not the author of that letter. The province has done a number of things that improve air quality in the GVRD area and the Fraser Valley area as well. That will include programs like AirCare. That will include the urban design. In British Columbia in our lower mainland we've actually done a m u c h b e t t e r j o b t h a n s o m e o f o u r n e i g h b o u r s t o t h e south in terms of urban growth that's concentrated in such a way that people can bike and walk and take transit to work.

That's been a real focus at the regional level and at the provincial level, and I know that air quality has improved in the lower mainland through some of these initiatives. J. MacPhail: Yes, but those two — the Livable Re- gion strategy and now AirCare — are both regional

5994 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 government initiatives. The Premier was very clear in saying that B.C. recognizes its own opportunities for action. That's why I asked what the relationship was between the GVRD and the provincial government. I mean, it's safe to say that the GVRD…. What would happen if the GVRD stopped its air quality improve- ment programs? What happens then? Hon. J. Murray: I ' m n o t s u r e i t w o u l d b e p r o d u c - tive for me to speculate. The GVRD is very committed to air quality and has that delegated responsibility.

If I were to write a letter that says B.C. is committed to something, I think that includes actions of regional government. They are part of B.C., and the ministry does work in partnership with the GVRD on projects like the air quality and health study of the year 2002. J. MacPhail: Well, actually, I don't think that's cor- rect. But if it is, does the minister think that what the Premier's letter meant was that the GVRD is doing good work in this area? Hon. J. Murray: I interpret the letter to mean that the province is doing good work in this area, and that includes various partners.

Some of those partnerships include local and regional government as well as non- governmental organizations, businesses and the pro- vincial government. Our focus is working in partner- ship to identify problems and to make improvements, and I think the results that have been obtained in the air quality in the GVRD are a testament to that partner- ship approach being successful over the past years. [1635] J. MacPhail: Well, okay. I read the Premier's letter. I read the Hansard debate from last year, where the minister says it's our top priority — air quality — and then out- lined….

"I'm clear that reducing air pollution is a top pri- ority." That's what the minister said a year ago. All I'm trying to figure out is what it is that the B.C. government is doing to enhance air quality and reduce air pollution. So far the minister hasn't given me anything. I'm well aware of the regional programs, and the success or failure of those will be the success or failure of the GVRD. I'm looking for government actions in this area. In fact, the only thing I can figure out is that the govern- ment increased gas tax in the lower mainland to give to….

This is not the 3.5-cent gas tax; it's the 2-cent in- crease in gas tax that the government did, I think, in September 2002. Until very recently TransLink was using that for road enhancements, not public transit enhancements. So that was the provincial government's contribution. Is there anywhere else the minister can point me to in terms of enhancing air quality? Hon. J. Murray: The member's question is about improving air quality and what the province has done. I've made the comment that the province works in partnerships in a number of ways that have been effec- tive.

I appreciate the member pointing out that a 3.5-cent gas tax is actually a very positive contribution to deci- sions that people make in terms of the kind of vehicles they purchase. This government increased the tax credit for low emission vehicles. In this past budget this government made a tax credit available for cruise ships that use gas turbine engines, because they are far less polluting than the diesel engines. As I've mentioned already, there are various pro- jects that have to do with increasing commuting, in- creasing the use of biking. We are working on our air- shed planning framework.

We have a very progressive energy policy that is intended to address air issues. We are putting money into transportation im- provements. In my constituency alone, there is $59 million — over half of which is coming from the prov- ince — for transportation improvements that will re- duce traffic jams and bottlenecks in New Westminster, where we have trucks idling and creating air pollution. We'll be improving our air quality through those transportation improvements, as well as providing incentive for the public to use lower emissions vehicles or to park their vehicles.

I am proud to say that as well as our partnerships, we have a number of initiatives of all kinds that are intended to reduce air pollution, because it is one of the government's top priorities, and it is an issue of con- cern to the public. J. MacPhail: Good, because the copy of the letter sent to Governor Locke from the Premier is co-signed by the Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection. It is actually a letter from the minister herself as well. I'll just read the paragraph again.

It says: "I would like to add that British Columbia fully recognizes its own opportunity for action in this regard and that the province has undertaken a number of measures to im- prove air quality in the face of rapid growth in the most populated regions." That's why I've been pursu- ing this at length. It's signed by both the Premier and the Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection. What's the $59 million of transportation improve- ment? Did the minister say it's coming out of her budget? [1640] Hon. J. Murray: It's $58 million, and that is a project that is….

What I said was that it was more than half funded by the province, and this is through the trans- portation initiative that has been recently announced. This will be part of what the gas tax is dedicated to. It is not coming from my ministry's budget. I appreciate the member pointing out that that was a joint letter. There are a number of initiatives — and I have listed off many of them — including the support of local airshed planning, public outreach activities and our clean air initiative where we are beginning the consultation through the clean air issues in British Columbia paper. J. MacPhail: Yes.

Thank God we pursued that right to the very end.

THURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5995 I'm just wondering in terms of the transportation improvements, though, but that's not the project…. The $58 million project still keeps vehicles on the road. It's not actually the 3.5-cent gas tax increase I was talking about. It's the 2-cent-a-litre gas tax increase that the government imposed on the GVRD residents to go into TransLink, and then TransLink, as far as I can tell…. Well, there's been a change at TransLink which I'm thrilled about, but that goes into road improvements, and there's very little….

Well, how much extra money is the government putting into public transit — this government, the B.C. government? Hon. J. Murray: That is not a policy decision cov- ered by Water, Land and Air Protection's budget or estimates. J. MacPhail: Well, the minister was more than happy to stand up and take credit for a transportation improvement that didn't involve public transit. So I thought she might know if there are any public transit investments that she could take credit for — that she'd stand up and give them. The government can't just deliver what they consider good news.

When asked questions, they have to give all the news. The Chair: Members, maybe we can try and keep the topic on vote 40. J. MacPhail: It is — on its talk about air quality improvement. The Minister of Energy said the greatest detractor from enhanced air quality is vehicle emis- sions. That's what I'm exploring right now, Mr. Chair. How does raising the surtax threshold on luxury cars from $35,000 to $47,000, and thereby eliminating a deterrent in the purchase of high-pollutant vehicles, limit air pollution in the Fraser Valley? Hon. J.

Murray: The question is of tax policy that the member can choose to direct to the Minister of Fi- nance. [1645] J. MacPhail: No, it's a question about air quality enhancement. It is noted by almost every study that most of the SUVs being bought in this category are in the lower mainland and that SUVs disproportionately contribute to airshed issues. So it's not a tax question. It's an air quality question. Hon. J. Murray: Our ministry's objective is to see cleaner air, and we would like to see more people us- ing bikes, transit and other methods of getting where they need to go. We encourage those choices. J.

MacPhail: How does the continued deployment of the Burrard Thermal plant reflect recognition of the opportunities to limit air pollution? Hon. J. Murray: We have a new-era commitment to phase out the use of the Burrard Thermal plant, and there's an in-house group of members who are looking at that issue. J. MacPhail: They've been looking at it for quite a while. I was wondering what the minister can update us on, on Burrard Thermal. I know that the Minister of Education has made a commitment to close it. I know that's what the new-era commitment is.

We're two years into a mandate to have a four-year term, so where are we at on it? Also, I know that if it is closed, the issues facing the Minister of Energy will change substantially. He didn't give us any indication that that was going to happen. Hon. J. Murray: Specific questions about a power plant would be best directed to the Minister of Energy and Mines. The other place to seek information would be the energy policy. J. MacPhail: I don't want to read into the record again what the minister said in April of 2002 — that reducing air pollution is a top priority. I read it into the record.

These are legitimate questions for the Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection. Burrard Thermal and air quality are linked. Now, in the ten years of the NDP government, Bur- rard Thermal stayed powered, but there was a huge investment in the context of Burrard Thermal staying open, for it to be upgraded to reduce pollution as much as possible. In fact, it stands as a model, given the con- text of it being a thermal-powered electricity generat- ing plant. But even in that context, the government made a new-era commitment to close it.

The Minister of Education made that commitment, and there's a committee struck. It's inextricably linked. Why doesn't the minister have a view on this? Hon. J. Murray: Just to repeat to the member: we do have a commitment to phase out the Burrard power plant. We also have a responsibility to the citizens of British Columbia to ensure that we have adequate power to meet their needs. Part of our energy policy is a very aggressive ap- proach to energy efficiency and energy conservation.

We have things like stepped power rates for industrial customers, which will provide incentive for reducing any use of energy that they can avoid and for them to f i n d w a y s t o r e d u c e t h e i r e n e r g y u s a g e . W e h a v e a commitment to update our Energy Efficiency Act. We are seeking every possible way to manage our energy demand in British Columbia as part of the whole pack- age that will include the phasing out of Burrard Ther- mal over time. There has been no decision made as to the time frame for that at this point. [1650] J.

MacPhail: How does the introduction of coal as a source of energy…? The Minister of Energy and Mines said yesterday: "It's a bright future for the coal industry in the province." How does that contribute to meeting global atmospheric objectives?

5996 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 Just to outline what the government has done in promoting the coal industry, it's reduced taxes on the coal industry; it's cut taxes on exploration equipment; and it has, of course, eliminated the corporation capital tax. How does the promotion of coal as a source of en- ergy meet with the minister's objectives? Hon. J.

Murray: The reduction of taxes and the re- duction of corporate capital taxes are a very important part of our government's policy for revitalizing the economy so that we can move from last place in Canada, which we have been in, regrettably, in the past number of months. My ministry does air quality permitting and sets ambient air quality guidelines and standards that any facility, whether it is a coal-fired plant or a pulp mill, needs to adhere to.

Should there be an application, my ministry will make sure that any emissions from that power plant are such that they don't exceed the ambient air quality standards for that area. J. MacPhail: T h a n k y o u . Y e s , f r o m t h i s b i n d e r I d o have the ministry's document around Q & As for coal emission guidelines. I just want to go through them, if I may. There's the question: "How do B.C.'s new guide- lines compare to those in other provinces and states?" Of course, for the public's information, this ministry will be putting in place coal-fired power plants.

B.C. doesn't have any existing coal-fired power plants now, according to this document. Where do we stack up in comparison to other provinces? Hon. J. Murray: I would like to correct something that the member just stated. The ministry will not be putting in place coal-fired plants. Should the private sector decide to invest in coal-fired electrical plants, that will be the decision of the private sector. The guidelines are compatible with Alberta's guide- lines, with the exception that there is a higher allow- able level of sulphur for the use of waste coal. That waste coal has been being landfilled.

It's been used as a waste, so turning it into an energy source would re- duce the pollution potential from the landfilling of that material. J. MacPhail: Yes, the minister is correct to say that it will be the private sector providing coal-fired energy plants, except that it is the government's plan for in- creasing power to allow the private sector to do that. That's the only way this government is going to in- crease energy supply. It will be the private sector, but it will be at the behest of this government to do it.

I'm not sure why the minister would back away from the great pride that the Minister of Energy and the member for East Kootenay took yesterday. I sat here and listened to it, about how exciting it was that the government was moving in the direction of coal- fired power plants. [1655] I'm just looking at this document here. Sulphur dioxide. The emission guidelines for B.C. for January of 2003, the emission limits, are 180 to 290. In Alberta they're at 180. Let me see. Saskatchewan allows 50 to 520 but then says 50 to 200 for the same coal that B.C. would use.

We're pretty much the highest of every jurisdiction except for Washington. Why is that? Mr. Chair, I just want to make it clear to the public who's watching too. Lower is better when we're talking about emissions, and we're at the highest level. Hon. J. Murray: I just want to clarify here that these guidelines are a starting point for discussions with po- tential proponents. The actual levels will depend on the ambient air quality objectives and the character of the airshed. This ministry's guideline for sulphur dioxide is the same as Alberta's, which is 180.

The higher levels are for the potential of using waste coal to create en- ergy. Waste coal does produce more sulphur dioxide, so that's where the higher figure comes from. It is not for the regular industrial quality of coal; in that case it's the same as Alberta's standard. J. MacPhail: Well, that's interesting. That certainly is a good explanation beyond what this briefing note says. What about our other competitors like Idaho, Wyoming, Montana — Washington is higher — Ore- gon…? What about that? Hon. J. Murray: B.C.'s guideline is similar to its nearest neighbours of Washington and Alberta.

This guideline is a starting point. The actual allowable levels of emissions will depend on the character of the air- shed and the ambient air quality standards that the ministry has set. J. MacPhail: Isn't the use of coal at odds with the goal of reducing greenhouse gas emissions? Hon. J. Murray: Various ways of producing elec- tricity do create various levels of greenhouse gases. It is the federal government's negotiations with sectors that will determine how those sectors across Canada help Canada to achieve the Kyoto targets that it has agreed to and ratified recently.

That discussion — bilateral, between the federal government and the industry sec- tors, including the coal sector — will determine what the allowable levels of greenhouse gases are from that sector. J. MacPhail: So the order of proceeding on these matters is important. Will this government work out the standards to be met for the Kyoto protocol on a provincial basis first and then determine whether it makes sense to proceed with coal-fired energy plants? Hon. J. Murray: The federal government is engaged in negotiations with the various sectors like the electric- ity sector, and those are not concluded yet.

So it's not clear at this point whether it will lead to a cap and tradable permit system, whether it will lead to a re- quirement for offsets or whether there will be particu-

THURSDAY, APRIL 3, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 5997 lar equipment required that will reduce greenhouse gases. That's a discussion the federal government is having with the sector, and we will be watching with interest as to what is concluded. J. MacPhail: W e l l , i s t h e r e a n y o n e t h a t s a y s c o a l - fired power plants are anything but at the upper end of greenhouse gas emissions? [1700] Hon. J. Murray: I believe there is a higher level of emissions from

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0403pm 14
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0403pm 14
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	334f17fb2cf99915e89991fe2e5b2f16e38a34cd

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