Manitoba Hansard — 17 May 2001 (Sitting 32B, 37th Legislature, 2nd Session)

37-2-32b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George llickes Speaker Vol. LI No. 328- 1:30 p.m., Thursday, May 17, 2001

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETI, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERlLLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GlLLESHAMMER, Harold HELWER, Edward UICKES, George JENNlSSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY,Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGlFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIH YCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MURRAY, Stuart NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott, Hon. STEFANSON, Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

1941 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, May 17,2001 The House met at 1:30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Manitoba Hydro Lines Routes Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Jeff Niesobisz, Gary Kohut, Robert Leperre and others, praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister for Manitoba Hydro (Mr. Selinger) consider alternative routes for the additional 230kV and 500kV lines proposed for the R.M. of East St. Paul. Kenaston Underpass Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Art Wiens, S.

Zacharias, L. Peters and others, praying that the Premier (Mr. Doer) of Manitoba consider revers ing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Diana Fawcett, J. McClellan, Ed Grzenda and others, praying that the Premier (Mr. Doer) of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construc tion of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. READING AND RECEI VING PETITIONS Manitoba Hydro Lines Routes Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Springfield (Mr.

Schuler), I have reviewed the petition and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Clerk, please read. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the prov ince of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the R.M. of East St. Paul has the highest concentration of high voltage power lines in a residential area in Manitoba; and THAT the R.M. of East St.

Paul is the only jurisdiction in Manitoba that has both a 500kV and a 230kV line directly behind residences; and THAT numerous studies have linked cancer, in particular childhood leukemia, to the proxi mity of power lines. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIO NERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assem bly of Manitoba request that the Minister respon sible for Manitoba Hydro consider alternative routes for the additional 230kV and 500kV lines proposed for the R.M. of East St. Paul. PRESENTING PETITIONS Kenaston Underpass Mr.

Ron Schuler (Springfield): I ask for leave to revert back to presenting petitions, and if I can also have leave to present the petition on behalf of the honourable Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger)? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave to revert back to Petitions and table for the honourable Member for Charleswood? [Agreed] Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of AI Morley, James Van Deventer, V. Madsen and others, praying that the Premier (Mr.

Doer) of Manitoba con sider reversing his decision to not support con struction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. *( 13 :35) READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Kenaston Underpass Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen), I have reviewed the petition and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

1942 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 2001 Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Clerk, please read.

Madam Clerk (Patricia Cbaycbuk): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the intersection at Wilkes and Kenaston has grown to become the largest unseparated crossing in Canada; and THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad crossing is twelve times the acceptable limit as set out by Transport Canada; and THAT vehicles which have to wait for trains at this intersection burn up approximately $1. 4 million in fuel, pollute the environment with over 8 tons of emissions and cause approxi mately $7.3 million in motorist delays every year.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIO NERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenas ton and Wilkes. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Morris (Mr. Pitura), I have reviewed the petition and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Clerk, please read.

Madam Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the intersection at Wilkes and Kenas ton has grown to become the largest unseparated crossing in Canada; and THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad crossing is twelve times the acceptable limit as set out by Transport Canada; and THAT vehicles which have to wait for trains at this intersection burn up approximately $1.4 million in fuel, pollute the environment with over 8 tons of emissions and cause approxi mately $7.3 mil lion in motorist delays every year.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIO NERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Premier of Mani toba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenas ton and Wilkes. Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I ask for leave to do the reading and receiving of the petition for the Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger). Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? [Agreed} I have reviewed the petition of the honourable Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr.

Speaker: Clerk, please read. Madam Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the intersection at Wilkes and Kenaston has grown to become the largest unseparated crossing in Canada; and THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad crossing is twelve times the acceptable limit as set out by Transport Canada; and THAT vehicles which have to wait for trains at this intersection burn up approximately $1. 4 million in fuel, pollute the environment with over 8 tons of emissions and cause approxi mately $7.3 million in motorist delays every year.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIO NERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Premier of Mani toba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenas ton and Wilkes.

May 17 , 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 19 43 * (13 :40) INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 29-The Residential Tenancies Amendment Act Hon. Scott Smith (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Education, Training and Youth (Mr. Caldwell), that leave be given to introduce Bill 29, The Residential Tenancies Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia location a usage d'habitation), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Smith: Mr. Speaker, this bill proposes to amend The Residential Tenancies Amendment Act to increase the exemption period for rent regulation for newly constructed rented resi dential buildings from five years to fifteen. Motion agreed to. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery, where we have with us from River West Park School 36 Grade 9 students under the direction of Ms.

Heather MacLeod. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger). Also, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us today His Excellency Kim Sam-hoon, Ambassador of the Republic of Korea at Ottawa. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Mountbatten School Aging Buildings Program Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, in 19 99, the former government announced a long-term commitment to the Aging Buildings Program by extending it to 2003 -2004, with an additional commitment of $30 million for needed school renovations. Monique Ethier, a parent whose child is enrolled at Mountbatten School has advised us that the Aging Buildings Program which was supposed to fund projects such as the promised upgrades of Mountbatten School was in fact cancelled earlier this year. Can the Premier please explain why he has cancelled this important school restoration program? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, the capital committee dealing with public schools was obviously involved in this, plus the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell). I think you will find that the allocation for improving edu cational facilities in Manitoba, which is 10 0 percent paid for by the pro vincial government has gone up, many of the projects have been of renovation nature as opposed to some new capital. We think it is equally important to renovate the existing schools in Manitoba to ensure that they are safe, that they are energy efficient, that they are conducive to good education.

As the member may or may not know, for every worthy project that has been proposed in any given budget year, there is only a fixed amount of money. We always know that there are lots of projects of merit, but there is only a finite amount of money and you cannot on the one hand talk about the fact that our investments in funding for health and education were about 3 to 1 ratio for tax reductions. We think that is a very balanced approach. Mr. Murray: Mr.

Speaker, the Premier talks about new revenue expenditures of $6 for every $1 of tax relief, to be accurate, but over the course of the next couple of years the $30- million extension of the Aging Buildings Pro gram was supposed to fund school renovations, roofing projects and system replacement pro jects. The Premier has stated on many occasions, and I quote: I am responsible for all financial decisions. I would like to ask the Premier to explain why the $30 million of much-needed school renovation projects are now deemed not important to his Government. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, the total funding is quite a bit more significant than when the

19 44 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 200 1 members opposite were in government. Also, when we came into Government we not only had underfunding on one level of public education on the operating side, we had undersupport on the property tax side and we had a smaller measure of capital investment on the capital side. We have also had a huge weakness in terms of post-secondary capital. We had a proposed community college expansion program with no capital money in the budget, Mr. Speaker. We had the University of Manitoba with an Engi neering Faculty that had a roof that was leaking.

We had the U of W heritage buildings that were in a rapid state of decline, and so, on public schools, community colleges, post-secondary education, we have invested in the future. Those investments are within the Budget. I know every second day the member opposite talks about tax reductions. The other second days he talks about spending increases. We have a balanced approach where we live within our budget. * (13: 45) Mr. Murray: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think it is important to recognize, at least we do on this side, that the Aging Buildings Program is a needed initiative.

This Government recogr.ized that last year when they committed to funding four projects. While three of those projects are moving forward, the fourth project which was committed, Mountbatten School, has suddenly had their project pulled. Can the Premier explain why the Minister of Education broke his promise to provide the school with $15 0,000, and can he explain where the rest of the $30 million has gone? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the specific questions of projects are contained within the Budget.

I am not sure whether the Estimates have been reviewed yet in the Department of Education or will be reviewed, but I am sure that is a relevant question in that project. The bottom line is there will be a full accounting for the $30 million. I recall seeing a considerable number of schools, literally very, very many schools, that were being renovated, electrical work, roofing work, security work, classroom work that was conducted in many, many Manitoba schools. But we have a budget. It is higher than members opposite had, but it is a budget that we are going to stay within.

Yes, there are many good projects out there. There were many good projects for 10 years at the universities and the community colleges, and there were many good projects when members opposite were spending $2 million and $3 million on public education. We will live within our budget. It means saying yes to very many good projects and not being able to accom modate all the projects. Mountbatten School Aging Buildings Program Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River): Mr. Speaker, we know that Mountbatten School has not received the promised $1 50,000 from the Aging Buildings Program for their upgrading project.

In fact, parents and children have now learned the school is under review for closure as of June 30, 2003. Can the Minister of Education explain to the parents and children of Mount batten School, many of whom are in the gallery with us today, why their school has yet to receive the promised funds? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): I do appreciate, in a very profound sense, in an environment with limited resources, that this is a very difficult issue.

I do empathize with parents in this issue, in fact with parents throughout Manitoba in terms of the public expenditure of dollars in the public school system. The analysis and view of the Public Schools Finance Board, Mr. Speaker, the body charged with evaluating such requests, and evaluating all projects in the public school system, however, is one that I support. Mrs. Dacquay: Why does the Doer government place such little value on the potential disruption of the lives of children who currently attend Mountbatten School? Mr.

Caldwell: The closure of schools are fundamentally the responsibility of local authorities, the school divisions throughout the province of Manitoba. The members opposite know that.

May 17 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 19 45 Mr. Speaker, during the 11 years that members opposite were in office, a number of schools closed across the province. It had no bearing on members. It was a decision taken by communities in consultation with their locally elected officials, the school division. School closures are very dramatic events, but they are fundamentally events that are determined by communities and are responsive to demo graphics within that community. Mrs. Dacquay: Mr.

Speaker, is the Minister of Education prepared to settle this issue today and honour his commitment to Mountbatten School? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, this Government does have a commitment to the people of Manitoba. We have a commitment to do due diligence. We have a commitment to be fiscally and educationally responsible in all our decision making. This debate allows me to put on the record that in the last I8 months this Govern ment has put $12 7 million into public school capital across the province of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, I8 months, $I2 7 million.

When members opposite were in office who cared ostensibly about the state of capital resources in the public school system, we had allocations of $I8 million in '94-95, $23 million in '95-96, $20 million in '96-97, $24 million in '97-98. In four years, they put in less than half that this Government has done in the last I8 months. * (13 :50) Mountbatten School Aging Buildings Program Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr.

Speaker, during Estimates last year on July I 0, the Minister of Education sat across from members on this side of the House and noted that several schools would receive funding under the Aging Buildings Program. The minister stated the names of the schools and the exact amount of funding each school would receive. Can the minister advise if Sisler School received $1. 4 million, Beausejour Elementary School received $1 00,000, and Fort La Bosse School Division received $600,000 under the Aging Buildings Program, as he indicated during the Estimates on July 10 of last year? Hon.

Drew Ca ldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Mr. Speaker, 1 will have to review the Estimates from last year, but I will say that the capital support in this year's funding announcement, support of $76 million, $76.6 million in this year's capital support-the largest, incidentally, in the history of the province of Manitoba-which was designed fundamentally and targeted fundamentally at the legacy of ruin in terms of our mechanical systems, in terms of our roofing systems, in terms of our electrical systems, in terms of the classrooms of the province of Manitoba.

There was no oil changed in that car for 1I years, and this Government is investing significant capital dollars at historic levels in changing the oil that members opposite let lapse over II years. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Speaker, clearly, we are not talking about car oil changes today. What we are talking about is a school, Mountbatten School.

How does the minister justify to the parents and the children sitting in the gallery today from Mountbatten School, the parents and children whose school was on the list for funding during last July's Estimates, how does he justify to them that they are not going to be receiving this funding when he gave them his word they would be receiving it? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry members opposite did not understand the metaphor, but the reality is that this Government is investing the highest rates ever in this province's history in the renewal of our public school infrastructure. The reality also is- Mr.

Speaker: Order. The honourable Of ficial Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne's 417 : Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate.

19 46 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 200 1 We have given this minister plenty of opportunity in the previous questions. He danced on those ones, but clearly if he was listening to this question it is called Mountbatten School. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, the answer was being provided, but the minister was cut off by the Opposition. He is in the course of giving an answer. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Of ficial Opposition House Leader, I am sure he has a point of order for provoking debate. I am sure that the honourable minister was just about to answer the question. So I will give the opportunity to the minister to answer the question. *** Mr. Caldwell: Obviously, Mr. Speaker, on this side of the House we believe that public resources are very precious. They should be expended in a fiscally responsible manner, in an educationally responsible manner.

In terms of the decision making in terms of how those resources are allocated, the Public Schools Finance Board has my full confidence. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Speaker, is this mm1ster willing to close Mountbatten School, willing to force the children into another location, willing to dissolve the hub of the community just because of his inability to stand by his word? Mr. Speaker: The question has been answered. Is there another question? The honourable Member for Fort Garry, on a new question. * (13 :55) Mrs. Smith: Mr.

Speaker, Manitobans are quickly learning that they cannot trust what the Minister of Education tells them. To refresh his memory, I would like to table a copy of Hansard from July 10 , 2000. This part of Hansard, Mr. Speaker, says there are a few more projects under Aging Buildings, and I quote: I will just go over them very quickly. In Winnipeg, Sisler School is receiving $1 .45 million; in St. Vital, Mount batten School is receiving $1 50,000; in Agassiz, Beausejour Elementary, phase 2 is receiving $1 00,000; Fort La Bosse School Division is receiving $600,000, for a total of $2.3 million on that score.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for Fort Garry, with her question. Mrs. Smith: On a new question, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister of Education confirm now that on July I 0, 2000, and the Hansard is right in front of the minister, he stated that under the Aging Buildings Program "Mountbatten School is receiving $1 50,000." Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, yes, I can. To date, $15 0,000 is available for the project under the 2000-2 00 1 Budget. Mrs. Smith: Is this minister aware of

section 19 of The Public Schools Finance Board Act which states that the minister's decision, and I quote, is final and binding, and take responsibility for this decision that has been made? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, I am aware and I also have full confidence in locally elected officials at the divisional level to make decisions. I have full confidence in The Public School Finance Board to provide the best advice to the department and to myself on decisions around public schools financing and the financing of capital projects.

I am more than willing to take responsibility for the stewardship of $76 million in the capital projects around the province. This is an issue that affects every community in this province. It affects every school in this province, 730-odd schools, tens of thousands of students, and we will as a Government invest responsibly, in a fiscally responsible manner and an educationally respon sibly manner for every school in this province. Mrs. Smith: Will the minister then take full responsibility and honour his word, and provide

May 17 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 19 47 the funding to Mountbatten School as he promised last year? Mr. Caldwell: We are not dictators on this side of the House, and we are not making policy going on the fly, as members opposite seem to be doing, in terms of tax on one hand, cut on another hand. We cannot have expenditures being driven by whim, Mr. Speaker, as members opposite seem to indicate. To date, $1 50,000 is available for this project under the 2000-200 1 Budget. Mountba tten School Aging Buildings Program Mrs.

Louise Dacquay (Seine River): This minister is doing nothing to appease the concerns of the students and parents at Mount batten School. He cannot live up to his word, and now he is stating that it is in a different year's Budget. I want to draw to the minister's attention the Annual Report of the Manitoba Public Schools Finance Board, dated June 30, 2000, which lists the major capital construction projects approved by PSFB during July 19 99 to June 2000. Number 6 on the list is St. Vital, Mountbatten School renovations, Aging Buildings Program. Mr. Speaker, I will table that document.

My question to the- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for Seine River, with her question. Mrs. Dacquay: My question to the Minister of Education is: Did the Minister of Education politically intervene and overrule the decision of the independent Public Schools Finance Board that approved the $1 50,000 for Mountbatten School? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): No, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Seine River, with her first supplementary question. Mrs. Dacquay: Mr.

Speaker, my question to the Minister of Education is: Who are the parents to believe? Where is the money? Mr. Caldwell: The St. Vital School Division did make a request to the Public Schools Finance Board in the 2000-200 1 Budget. Mr. Speaker, $1 50,000 was made available for this project. The revised cost of the pro ject came in substantially more than that. The Public Schools Finance Board deliberates on the global picture for all schools in the province of Manitoba, makes determinations based upon what is best for Manitoba, what is best for the public school system. The St.

Vital School Division, the current enrolment of the school is 64 students. The St. Vital School Division estimates a further decline in numbers over the course of the years to come. That is part of the deliberation on any school decision around the province of Manitoba. The decision of whether or not to keep a school open or closed- Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Caldwell: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The determination on these issues are made at the local school division level with community input. There is a two-year period for delibera tions. I find it passing strange that a week ago members opposite- Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Member for Seine River. Mrs. Dacquay: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister of Education. Did he review the proposal made by the St. Vital School Division as a priority one project, which stated for their justification of the project that the classroom size and the student enrolment was remaining stable and increasing slightly on a year-to-year basis? Mr. Caldwell: Mr.

Speaker, I have respect for the advice that we get in the office, the Minister of Education's office of the Public Schools Finance Board, the advice of the publicly elected, locally elected school trustees and school divisions. I do find it passing strange that a week ago members opposite were screaming about school board autonomy. Now they want me to overrule school boards and public finance boards. Arena/Entertainment Complex Public Consultation Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier.

I see the True North arena proposal as a positive and exciting development for our province. I am also

19 48 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 200 1 a strong believer in community input and the potential for individual citizens to contribute good ideas which can enhance the long-run potential of the arena project. As the Free Press editors have emphasized, it is important to take care that we squeeze all possible public advantage out of the True North arena.

I ask the Premier when the three levels of government will be holding public hearings to get input into the arena proposal, so that citizens can have a chance to help to improve and enhance this proposal to the best possible advantage of all Manitobans. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, we are receiving a lot of suggestions from the public. I think there is a lot of general enthusiasm for the proposal. The proposal, or the idea of the proposal, was in various concept forms for the Centre Venture discussions that took place publicly a few years ago. I guess it was a year and a half or two years ago.

There were public hearings on downtown. Some of these ideas were there. There are a number of businesses that are involved now in how they can take advantage of a proposed new entertainment centre. There are a number of other suggestions, particularly around, not the heritage of the building, but a lot of people have a sentimental attachment to either the statue or the Grill Room or some other parts of the existing building, how can we incorporate that into the new building. So the advice is coming in, in this Legislature on a daily basis, I suppose, and from the member opposite.

There have been general discussions on downtown revitalization. We listen very carefully to any specific suggestion that the public is going to make. * (1 4:00) Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary to the Premier. I ask the Premier: Does he not believe, in view of the amount of public money involved, the size and significance of this project to Manitoba, in the desirability of an optimum result for all Manitobans? Is it not fundamental to the democratic process to allow citizens to have input to improve this project and to have the best possible result? Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, we are continuing to listen to the public. The overwhelming sense is this is an extremely positive idea, extremely positive framework, extremely positive set of financing on the agreement, particularly with no risk to the taxpayer for capital overrun, team operating loss overrun, or overruns in the opera ing of the team. We have agreed, in principle, to community access to the facility for a set number of days. We have asked, and the team owners, facility owners and the private owners have had discussions with the United Way.

We have had discussions with high school hockey, and as I understand it, the United Way is listening to the public on ideas for public access to the facility. Mr. Gerrard: My second supplementary to the Premier. I ask the Premier, when the proposal as it stands now would be to use approximately one-third of the days of the year in the arena, why the Premier is reluctant to hold public hearings so we can get input from citizens on how we might be able to use it the other two thirds of the days of the year and have an even enhanced project for all of Manitoba. An Honourable Member: Jon is still not applauding. Mr.

Doer: Jon is not applauding. I will not comment on that. I could not possibly comment on that. Mr. Speaker, 70 percent of the money for this and 10 0 percent of the risk is coming from the private sector. We have agreed, the City, the federal government and the Province, to certain capital infrastructure investments in exchange for community access. Those issues of com munity access will be in the public with the connection of the United Way, and we believe that every day is an opportunity for the public to speak.

We are getting lots of good ideas about the proposed entertainment centre that is being built primarily by the private sector but with support from the public sector, and we certainly listen to every suggestion from the public.

May 17 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 19 49 If the member opposite has any ideas, we are more than willing to listen to them. I think it is important that public access in particular for us is enshrined in the spirit of this proposal and in the words and actions of the proposal as it goes forward in a positive and optimistic way for the future of our community. Mountbatten School Closure Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River): Mr.

Speaker, Monique Ethier, whose child attends Mountbatten, wrote these words to the minister, and I quote: A government that deprives our children of their right to the best education and disenfranchises their community should hang their heads in shame, for they do not value children or their education. The minister has yet to respond, and I will table the Jetter. My question to the Minister of Education: Will he meet with the parents of Mountbatten School today and explain to them why their school is closing despite his promises to the contrary? Hon.

Drew Caldwell (Minister of Educat ion, Training and Youth): As members opposite know, school closures are decisions of the community and the school boards; they are not the authority of the Minister of Education. In fact, the Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler), when he was a trustee, closed McLeod School in his own constituency, so they have experience from that. Point of Order Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne's 417 says that answers should not provoke debate. I did not promise $1 00,000-plus for a school and then close it, thank you, like this minister did. Mr. Speaker: Order.

The honourable Minister of Education, Training and Youth, on the same point of order. Mr. Caldwell: On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker. We are discussing the issue of school closures and who has authority for it. The authority is the school board's, and I want to put that fact on the record. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler), he does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. * * * Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Education, Training and Youth to respond. Mr. Caldwell: The question itself, the

preamble to the question discussed about the letter that was sent to my office by Ms. Ethier and the support for this Government for the public school system, Mr. Speaker. In I 992-93, the Government committed $22 million to capital works in the public school system. In '93-94, members opposite committed $18 million. In '94-95, it was $1 8.3 million. In the last 18 months, this Government put $12 7 million into the capital projects around this province. We are rebuilding the public school system. Point of Order Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Beauchesne's 417 : Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. Mr. Speaker, all this minister is speaking about is building. We are talking about him ripping down a school. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Education, Training and Youth, on the same point of order. Mr. Caldwell: The same point of order, Mr. Speaker. The reference was made to commit ments to the public education system and build ing our public school system.

I am putting some facts on the record as to why we are having to deal with renovation projects virtually through out this province. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House

19 50 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 200 1 Leader, I would just like to remind all honourable ministers that according to Beauchesne's Citation 417 ; answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and to not provoke debate. * * * Mrs. Dacquay: Will the Minister of Education please review The Public Schools Act which clearly states that it is the Government's final authority to close schools. Mr. Caldwell: Of course, Mr. Speaker, I am constantly in review of The Public Schools Act, in fact, all issues that pertain to my portfolio.

I have to say again, though, we respect, on this side of the House, the authority of local school divisions to make decisions in conjunction with their communities. Members opposite cannot have it both ways. They cannot in one session, when there is nobody in the gallery, scream about local autonomy, and then play to an audience and say, no, you have to intervene. We will place confidence in locally elected officials in the Public Schools Finance Board. Mrs. Dacquay: My supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, is to the same minister.

Why is this minister closing Mountbatten School, and will he meet with the parents today? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, we are not closing Mountbatten School. We are taking advice from the local authority in conjunction with their community and the Public Schools Finance Board. The member opposite knows that I am in Estimates today, and therefore my

schedule is- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Mervin Tweed (Tu rtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. If the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell ) needs a half hour from Estimates, I am sure the members on this side would be prepared to allow him that half hour to meet with the people of Mountbatten. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for Turtle Mountain, he does not have a point of order. I would like to remind all honourable members, when rising on a point of order, it should be a breach of the rules of the House or for unparliamentary language.

I would just like to remind all honourable members. * (14 :10 ) Mountbatten School Aging Buildings Program Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River): On a new question, Mr. Speaker, given the fact that I am absolutely positive leave would be given, will the Minister of Education meet with the parents of Mountbatten School present today to explain why he committed $15 0,000 and then refused to give them the money? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Edu cation, Training and Youth): Mr. Speaker, I have no problem with that whatsoever. My door is always open. Mountbatten School Aging Buildings Program Mrs.

Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, clearly today, the Minister of Education has danced around the issue, in and out. Will the minister acknowledge that the Estimates process is a process where the minister clearly states the intentions of the Doer government when it comes to the funding and the capital projects on hand for that year? My question to the minister, Mr.

Speaker: When the minister meets with the parents of Mountbatten, will the minister explain to these parents why he is dancing around the closing of the school when, in effect, he promised-he laid it down in Hansard-that $1 50,000 would be given to Mountbatten School so they could keep it open? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Mr. Speaker, I put on the record a few times today that $1 50,000 was made available for this project during the 2000- 200 1 Budget year. The $1 50,000 obviously was not sufficient to cover the cost of needed renovations to the school, Mr. Speaker.

The revised cost was substantially higher than what was acceptable by

May 17,200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 195 1 the Public Schools Finance Board. Obviously, the Public Schools Finance Board is not going to approve projects in that sort of circumstance, where you are over budget. The letter that went to Mr. Bruce, the chair of St. Vital School Division last year, quote: The project identified above is subject to detailed assessment by the Public Schools Finance Board which will forward its recommendations to me for a final decision by government. Mr.

Speaker, the Public Schools Finance Board, in administering the $76 million that was granted by the Province this year responsibly, fiscally and educationally, has made a deter mination that the Mountbatten School is over budget, and the deliberations are now at the St. Vital School Division. Mrs. Smith: Clearly, Mr. Speaker, this minister is lacking current information. Will this minister, when he meets directly after this time in the House, when he meets with the parents, commit to keeping an open mind and listen to the current information that he is not aware of before he makes his final decision? Mr.

Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, everybody on the Government side of the House has an open mind. Everybody on the Government side of the House is committed to working with and con sulting with the people of Manitoba in making decisions on every portfolio, something, I might add, that was in stark contrast to the previous government in this House. In answer to the member's question, I am meeting with the parents; I am not meeting with the member opposite. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. * (1 4:20) MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Mr. Gabe Langlois Ms. Nancy Allan (St.

Vital): It is a privilege for me to recognize a constituent of mine, Mr. Gabe Langlois, for his spirit of volunteerism. Recently Gabe received the Premier's Volunteer Service A ward in the individual category at the 18th annual volunteer awards luncheon. Known as Dancing Gabe, he received this prestigious award in recognition of his energetic commit ment and devotion to Manitoba's sporting com munity. Gabe volunteers at many games on Winnipeg's professional sports teams as well as the Winnipeg International Children's Festival and at the St. Vital YM-YWCA.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank the sports organi zations for their support in providing Gabe access to events whenever he arrives. The Premier spoke at the luncheon, congratulating recipients and Gabe, and paid tribute to family members who support volun teerism in their community. I know, from my short time with Gabe and his mom, this is a very dedicated, special young man whose mom is very proud of his contribution to our community. I was honoured to sit with Gabe and his mom at the volunteer luncheon and congratulate Gabe for his contribution to volunteerism. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

British Colombia Election Results Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, yesterday the people of British Columbia went to the polls and overwhelmingly kicked the NDP out of office. By winning a staggering 76 of 79 seats available in the province, Premier-elect Gordon Campbell and his Liberal colleagues have ended I 0 years of NDP-style, tax-and-spend government. In its most recent budget, the NDP government rejected tax cuts for the people of B.C. As a result, the people of B.C. rejected the NDP government. Canadians are beginning to recog nize the folly of electing NDP governments.

While they promise the moon and the stars during elections, they fail miserably when it comes to delivering on those promises, all too often catering to the special interest groups who got them into power. Gordon Campbell and his colleagues ran on a platform of meaningful tax relief, debt repay ment and free enterprise. Campbell promised a new era for B.C. and an end to 10 years of wasteful, mismanaged spending by the NDP government. His platform was wholeheartedly endorsed by the people of B.C., again, as an indication that Canadians are growing tired of

1952 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17,2001 paying the price, quite literally, for the misguided actions of the NDP governments elsewhere. I want to take this opportunity to congratulate the newly elected Premier on the stunning mandate he received last night. I wish him well as he and his colleagues begin a new era and bring financial responsibility to the people of B.C. Mr. Speaker, now that B.C.'s NDP have failed to achieve even official party status, their loss should serve as a lesson to the current Government in Manitoba.

While you can fool some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, you cannot fool all of the people all of the time. Narcisse Snake Tunnel Project Mr. Tom Nevakshonoff (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise in the House today to report on a very successful underpass project which was put in place in the Interlake last summer and is paying off in a big way today. I am referring, of course, to the Narcisse snake tunnel project, which saw the installation of a number of piped tunnels through the roadbed of Highway 17, approximately 15 miles north of Inwood.

The tunnels assist the red-sided garter snake in their travels to and from their den areas across a stretch of highway which has been the death of probably millions of these animals over the years. The situation was becoming critical as recently as two years ago, with estimated num bers dropping from a peak of around 75 000 to a low of just 15 000. There was a major winter kill over the 1998-99 season that followed a very destructive extended fall season in '98, during which approximately 25 000 animals died on the highway.

The tunnels, installed at very little cost, thanks to the co-operative efforts of local citizens and government staff from the departments of Conservation, Highways and Manitoba Hydro, saved the lives of approxi mately 7000 to 8000 snakes last season. Additional fencing and tunnels will be put in place this season, thereby ensuring that this unique site will be around for years to come. The site is well known around the world. When I was there last week, a team of scientists from Oregon State University was doing research there. Dr.

Robert Mason, an authority in the field, said that our project in Narcisse is one of the finest examples of a successful tunnelling project that he had ever seen. Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate the many individuals who have worked on this project and thank them on behalf of the people of Manitoba for their exceptional efforts in a very worthy cause. Thank you, Sir. Ecole Tuxedo Park 75th Anniversary Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr. Speaker, yesterday afternoon I had the oppor tunity to bring greetings on behalf of the Leader of the Official Opposition (Mr.

Murray) and my caucus colleagues in the Manitoba Legislature on the very special occasion of the 75th anniversary of Tuxedo Park School, now known as Ecole Tuxedo Park. I had a wonderful opportunity of having tea with several alumni, most of whom attended the school in the 1930s, my father being one of those people, Hugh McDonald, my aunt, Betty Green- Armytage, Mrs. Hunter, Don McCarthy, Barb Cannell, Betty Jane Wylie, Roy Parkhill and many others. I thank them for their wonder ful stories of the history of Tuxedo school.

In 1925, in response to a petition put forth by the residents stating a growing need for a school to educate 21 girls and boys in the Tuxedo area, Claude Hewbach and J. H. McDonald, my grandfather, hired architects to draw up plans for the schoolhouse. The original schoolhouse was built in 1926. It had two classrooms and one teacher named Maud Hill who taught 15 children in Grades 1 to 8. The population grew with the development of Old Tuxedo. By 1932, there was a need to add two classrooms to the building. The southern two rooms were built behind original classes. A major change occurred, Mr. Speaker, in 1984.

Tuxedo Park School became a French immersion centre. All of the signs, books, even teachers had to be replaced. The name changed to Ecole Tuxedo Park. Mr. John Lamb became the new bilingual principal. The school popu lation rose to 265 people.

May 17,200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1953 In 1988, two portable classrooms were added. In 1990, Madame Diana Fabas-Pirie became the first female principal the school ever had had. In 2001, the school celebrates its 75th anniversary. Many people hold a special place in their hearts for this school, the students, the staff, the parents, and I hope that it lasts at least another 75 years. Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank principal Diana Fabas-Pirie, Jeannette Keating and hun dreds of volunteers who contributed their efforts.

Felicitations et bonne chance pour encore soixante-quinze ans de succes a !'Ecole Tuxedo Park. Merci. Translation Congratulations and best wishes for another seventy-jive years of success to Ecole Tuxedo Park. Thank you. Glcnlawn Collegiate Art Display Ms. Linda Asper (Riel): I invite members of this House to visit Glenlawn Collegiate's artwork on display at the Pool of the Black Star in this building for the month of May. You will find an exhibition of over 50 significant drawings. etch ings and paintings. These works illustrate our young people's talent and creativity as future contributing adults in Manitoba.

Glenlawn Collegiate's visual arts program also has a school exhibit of a project on simulated stained glass, much of which is on display on the school's windows. Students worked with a medium called liquid leading, imitating stained glass. They created everything from abstracts to more concrete pieces. The art program at Glenlawn is due in large part to Cloyd Barth, art teacher, who is completing his first year as a full-time teacher in the program.

He has been successful in intro ducing new mediums to the students such as liquid leading, soapstone carving, dry-point etching, glass bead making and lost-wax carv ing. Students are able to express themselves through art by more than just drawing. Congratulations to Mr. Barth and his stu dents for their creativity and success in the visual arts program. Bravo to Donna Bulow, principal, the staff and students at Glenlawn for their support of the program and the display. This success story is one example of the fine work by staff and students being done in St. Vital School Division. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

ORDERS OF THE DA Y House Business Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, before returning to Committee of Supply, just to reiterate, there is no sitting tomorrow, of course, as a result of a decision yesterday. Mr. Speaker, would you canvass the House to determine if there is leave to adjourn at 5 p.m. today? Mr. Speaker: As previously announced, there will be no sitting tomorrow. Is there agreement to adjourn the House at 5 p.m. today? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: Mr.

Speaker, would you also please canvass the House to determine if there is consent to vary Estimates by moving Family Services and Housing and Healthy Child Mani toba from 254 into the Chamber to be considered before Executive Council? That is for today only. Mr. Speaker: Do we have unanimous consent of the House to vary the sequence for consider ation of Estimates by moving the Estimates for Family Service and Housing and for the Healthy Child Initiative from Room 254 to the Chamber to be considered prior to the Estimates of Executive Council? This change is to be effec tive for this afternoon only.

Agreed? [Agreed] To resume Committee of Supply. Mr. Deputy Speaker, please take the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) EDUCATION, TRAINING AND YOUTH *( 15:30) Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order? This

section of the Committee of Supply will be

1954 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 ,2001 considering the Estimates of the Department of Education, Training and Youth. Does the honourable Minister of Education, Training and Youth have an opening statement? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I do have an opening statement. Mr. Chairperson: Proceed. Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Chair and committee, it is a pleasure to be here again for Estimates. This is my second experience at the Estimates process. I found last year's process very interesting.

It does give myself, the department, the Opposition and the public a kind of broader perspective on the activities of the Department of Education, Training and Youth-in fact, a broader per spective on government policies and portfolios generally, I think, that is very useful from an educational perspective, certainly for my own education as well as my colleagues who sit in at committee meetings. So I look forward to this year's Estimates process. I was a little awe-struck last year by the whole ordeal, but as we went through the process, I warmed to it.

I did find it very valuable, as I said, from my own perspective, in terms of my own education on educational issues in the province of Manitoba. This last year, Mr. Chair, was a very significant, in fact, historic one for education in Manitoba. In January-! think it was January-the Department of Education and Training, my previous portfolio was split into two depart ments.

I retained education and training with the added responsibility of youth; and my colleague the Honourable Diane McGifford was given the portfolio of Advanced Education, which speci fically relates to the colleges and universities of the province of Manitoba. That division between advanced education and public education and training is something that has occurred in many other jurisdictions across Canada, and it was a first for Manitoba. It provides, I think appropriately, for added Cabi net voices around educational issues.

I think it does provide in the public mind assurance that Government is committed and focussed in a very serious way on the public school sector, K to Senior 4, the training sector, and in fact the youth sector, through my department; and focus sed on specifically the college and university sector, the post-secondary sector on behalf of my colleague the Honourable Diane McGifford. In fact, the feedback that we have received around that historic change-the separation of the two departments-has been very well received by the K to Senior 4 and training sector, as well as the post-secondary sector.

The universities and colleges do appreciate having a minister who can focus her time specifically on their needs, and certainly the public school system, independent school system; and the training sector appreciate having a minister that can devote his full attention to their needs. So it was an historic split.

It is a split that has been received very positively in the field, and indeed I think, having experience with the Education and Training portfolio encompassing all sectors of education in the province of Manitoba, I do appreciate, on a personal level, the ability to focus and train my attention specifically on the K to Senior 4 and training sector. * (1 5:40) We continue to work very closely, obviously, on educational issues with the two departments. We have approached this separa tion of the two departments in a very fiscally responsible as well as educationally responsible manner. We share a deputy in Dr.

Ben Levin. We share some departmental functions in terms of the administration of our departments. We work very closely together-in fact share the southwest wing of the main floor of the Legislature here. My colleague the Honourable Ms. McGifford and I meet on a regular basis, both inside of our offices as well as in the hallway coming to work in the morning and attending meetings. We do have an Education wing in this building now, which is also quite unique. That was a major historical change in the way that the Province of Manitoba approaches education.

It was a very important and well-received change and does allow for a great deal of focus on the two areas, the post-secondary and the K to Senior 4 level, to be attained.

May 17,2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1955 To help guide the two departments in our activities, Advanced Education as well as Education, Training and Youth share a number of goals. We do want to, in a meaningful way, improve success rates for our programs and institutions in the province of Manitoba.

We want to enhance program offerings across the province, and we want to enhance success rates for young Manitobans, both in our public school sector and our post-secondary sector, as well as enhance the abilities of our institutions, whether they be public schools or colleges or univer sities, in enhancing success rates, in providing the best possible resources and infrastructure for enhancing success rates in the programs that are offered for young Manitobans. Our first goal was improving success rates for our programs and institutions.

Secondarily, we wish to expand the range of people we serve in the province of Manitoba. This Government believes very strongly in the philosophy of lifelong learning. The past 18 months have seen the initiation of the Healthy Child Initiative to address the needs of prenatal to Kindergarten entry, or Grade 1 entry, as the case may be, until public school entry. We want to be able to expand the range of people we serve outside of the public school system.

When students graduate from Senior 4 or if they leave the public school system previous to graduation, we want to be able to accommodate the philosophy of lifelong learning and be proactive in that area throughout the life span of Manitobans. Our third goal together is to better integrate and support knowledge and skills development within economic and social priorities for the province. The Doer government believes that an educational policy is a keystone of economic development policy, of health care policy, of social justice in our province.

The investment that this Government has made in both the public school sector and the post-secondary sector in the 18, 19 months it has been in office has been tremendous. It has been at historic rates, and it is one that we are very, very proud of as a government. The fourth goal in terms of guiding our two departments is a goal to build the capacity of institutions and the community at large to support learning. This hearkens to the philosophy of lifelong learning.

It also I think underscores the very real belief that expanding capacity in terms of education does expand our capacity as a province to achieve sustainable long-term economic growth and to achieve sus tainable long-term improvements to the health of our population, our social health, our economic health, dare I say, our mental health as a province.

The fifth goal, helping guard our two departments, is to build a learning continuum across the province so that there is seamlessness between institutions and seamlessness between entry to the K to Senior 4 system or upon graduation from the public school system or exiting the public school system, some con tinuum between the workplace and/or the college or university stream. So, as I said, we are very, very proud of our record over the past 18 months. First and foremost, we are very proud of our record of openness, communcation, dialogue and consultation. In fact, Mr.

Chair, I just left a very positive meeting with parents from Mountbatten School in St. Vital Division that was precipitated by occurrences in the House this afternoon. I thank members opposite for giving me leave to delay Estimates by almost an hour to have that meeting. I was very, very pleased. It was a very, very important meeting, but I was very, very pleased that leave was given to be able to meet with parents from St. Vital School Division on the issue of their school. Again, I would like to thank the members opposite for granting me leave to be able to meet with parents.

So, first and foremost, we are very proud of our dedication to openness, communication and consultation. In fact, while I am on that point, I guess I should say, too, that I have been in every region of the province since being appointed minister.

I meet regularly with the provincial bodies that represent the public education field around the province of Manitoba, and meet regularly with the Manitoba Association of School Trustees, with the Manitoba Association of School Superintendents, with the Manitoba organization of School Business Officials, with the Manitoba Teachers' Society, with the Mani toba Federation of lndependent Schools and with the Manitoba Association of Parent Councils.

19 56 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 ,200 1 Indeed, I was speaking at their convention this past weekend. Last night, I was very pleased to speak at the Canadian Association of Principals, which is meeting. Their national organization is meeting in Winnipeg this year. I was very pleased to speak to the assembled delegates last night.

So I have had a very, very busy and pleasurable experience over the last 18 months getting into the schools of our province, getting into the classrooms of our province, getting into the board divisional offices of our province and indeed getting into the homes of parents of our province, who are interested in building public school excellence in the province of Manitoba.

It has been very, very gratifying and very pleasurable for me to learn more about the public school system and the views of those who support our public school system, whether they be teachers, parents, trustees, children or community members at large. We have instituted in the department over the last 18 months regular meetings with stakeholder groups. As I said, I met with the MAST executive yesterday, the MTS executive earlier this morning, and MAPC, Manitoba Association of Parent Councils, on the weekend.

We have regular meetings established with stakeholder groups, so we are moving forward together with the best advice that the field can offer us on matters that deal with the promotion of educational excellence in the province, and matters that deal with policy around creating an environment for improved educational delivery and improved educational programs in our province. On May 5, earlier this month, the department hosted a conference on a public schools agenda for the province of Manitoba, which was the culmination of seven regional meetings that were held during April and March throughout the province.

To bring together in one room, in one tent, as it were, parents, stu dents, trustees, superintendents, teachers, and other stakeholders around the creation of an educational agenda in our province of Manitoba. Most important, Mr. Chairperson, and what I get the most pleasure from is in fact visiting our schools throughout the province and our communities throughout the province and seeing first-hand the very, very good work that teachers, trustees, parents and students do together in promoting educational excellence in our communities and throughout our province.

It has been a real learning experience for me, and a real pleasure to get meaningful and thoughtful advice from parents, from trustees, from teachers and from children about what is important to them in our public school system, what we can do to improve our public school system, and what we can do to change existing policies and practices to better deliver a meaningful education in our schools. Mr. Chairperson, with regard to actions that have been taken by the Department of Education and Training, and now the Department of Education, Training and Youth more recently around public schools in our province.

First and foremost, Mr. Chairperson, our agenda has been determined by meeting our election commitments. The Premier (Mr. Doer) has stated, and indeed I have stated myself, that a commitment made will be a commitment kept, in our public school system.

In fact, indeed, right across government, and that is what has been guiding so much of my activity over the last 18 months, is meeting election commitments that were made in the 1999 election campaign. * (1 5:50) We set upon ourselves a very ambitious mandate in the public schools system, and we want to proceed with that mandate, given the support that Manitobans gave to our Govern ment, the mandate that Manitoba citizens gave to our Government during the September 1999 elections.

I am very much a believer in keeping promises, keeping commitments that were made, and indeed that has been the focus of much of our activity. Having said that, I will review, just briefly, some of the commitments that were made and some of them that have been achieved during the brief time that we have been in office under this first mandate. In terms of operating funds for the public school system, Mr. Chair, we as an opposition

May 17, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1957 party made a commitment to peg the level of support for public schools operations to the rate of economic growth in our province. That was a very significant commitment in that it would provide the public school system with a stable basis with which to make operational decisions, long-term stability in terms of their ability to make, the divisions' ability to make, school divisions' ability to make, operational decisions on a year-in, year-out basis.

The previous protocol for public schools operating funding announcements through suc cessive governments in the past has been on a year-in, year-out basis, that the minister would make an announcement of operating funds, and really there was no assurance as to what level of support the public school system would receive until that announcement was made.

By pegging the public school's funding announcement to the rate of economic growth in the economy, it provides assurances to school divisions, one, that there will be an increasing level of support in the context of the growing economy, and that there would not be cuts to the public school system.

Secondarily, it allowed school business officials, secretary, treasurers and trustees, in making their delibe rations to be able to model increases based upon a .5% increase, I% increase, 1.5% increase, 2% increase, 2.5% increase, depending on what the rate of eco nomic growth in the province was so that they can plan and make long-term planning two, three, four, five years out, with some assurances of stable funding support from the provincial taxpayer. So the pegging of operating funds to economic growth has been a very significant structural change in the public school system.

We are leaders in Canada in this regard. I am very, very proud to be part of a government that has made serious long-term commitment to providing increasing operational support, increased operational support to our public school system. In terms of capital funding, which was a big part of our discussion in Question Period today, in the past two years, the Doer government has committed $127 million to capital infrastructure improvements in our public school system. I know that sum, I do not know if I have it with me, that sum of money, in the last 18 months, is an extraordinary amount.

It is the largest in Manitoba's history. Again, I am very, very proud that the Doer government is investing at the highest rates ever in this province to the support of our public schools capital infrastructure. That is the mechanical systems, the electrical systems, the roofing systems, the windows, the structural systems of the schools throughout our province.

The capital support as well as the operating support that is being provided for our public school system is at historic rates in our province, and, as I said, I am very, very proud, as are my colleagues, to be part of a government that does place such importance and such value on investing in education because, in a very funda mental sense, we do believe, as a government, that an investment in education is an investment in economic growth. It is an investment in healthy communities. It is an investment in the young minds and spirits of Manitobans.

Another commitment that was made during the 1999 election campaign which has been met was a cancelling of the end-of-year standards test for Grade 3 students in the province of Manitoba and the institution of an early year Grade 3 assessment, which would allow young Manitobans' difficulties and challenges in litera cy and numeracy to be met in co-operation with the teacher, the parent, and the child throughout the school year. * (16 :00) We felt it was very, very important the school year be utilized to improve young Manitobans' numeracy and literacy skills.

We have put in place a model for assessment that does provide for the student to improve his or her skills throughout the school year through a program devised between the parent, the teacher and the child. We will shortly be announcing changes and improvements for next year to improve the quality and utility of the Grade 3 assessment. This was the first year for this particular alteration in assessment, moving, as I said, from the end-of-year standards test to an early year assessment that does allow the school year to be

1958 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 ,2001 used to improve skills for young Grade 3 students. We anticipated in making this change, which was quite a dramatic change, that it would require a two- to three-year rollout. I am pleased to say that, through con sultation and dialogue with teachers throughout the province of Manitoba, we will shortly be announcing improvements to better enhance the quality of the assessment and the value of that assessment for young Manitobans.

We also made a commitment to restore balance in collective bargaining, to restore a wider scope to bargaining between teachers and trustees in school divisions across the province. We achieved that last fall-last summer, I should say. It seemed like fall. We did not leave this building until August last year. As you know, being the Minister of Education, while my collea gues were able to take their summer holidays in September, I am afraid that September is a very busy time for teachers, and ministers of education. I was immediately put back to work after the Estimates process was concluded last year.

My colleague from Dauphin says it was good for me. He is right, it was very good for me, and kept me out of trouble and instilled a discipline in me that I did not know I was capable of. At any rate, we did, as a government, restore balance and collective bargaining through BiJJ 42 last year, which was a commitment that we had made pre-election and followed through with post-election. There was a commitment during Bill 42 made to have a commission on class size and composition. We felt that it was very important to have a public discussion around the issue of class size and composition in our province.

The commission is undertaking its work as we speak. Dr. Glenn Nicholls has been named commissioner. I know that he is looking forward to having a very meaningful, thorough, thoughtful public discussion around issues of class size and composition in our public school system. We made a commitment, going into this first mandate, to undertake a Healthy Child Initiative that brought meaningful policy development and program delivery to the children of the province of Manitoba.

Together I am working with my Cabinet colle agues in Family Services, in Justice, in Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, in Health, to work together towards creating many, many initiatives that are focussed on the youngest Manitobans between the ages of in utero to entry to the public school system. In regard to the public school system specifically, we are creating parent-child centres in schools across the province that will help facilitate both the development of community schools and the development of a healthy transi tion between preschool and the public school system.

There are also many, many smaller items that we have been involved in since assuming office 18 -19 months ago.

Everything from pedestrian crosswalk enhancement; school child ren crosswalk enhancement, in terms of creating better visibility in terms of signage and alertness for motorists approaching school zones; im provements in school buses; additional support and funding support for professional develop ment in our public school system-which is a very important matter of concern for parents and for teachers and, indeed, for all of us who are concerned about the delivering of the best quality of public education possible.

We have further supported the Manitoba Association of Parent Councils in our province, as well as a mediation project for the Manitoba Association of Parent Councils. We have provided for some changes in high school programs and will be providing more around the issues of distance education, which is very important in our rural and northern communities in terms of providing the opportunities for dual credits; which is particularly important, I think, Mr.

Chairperson, for those students who need enriched programs; those students who are capable of achieving success in our coll eges and universities in the high school context so that young Manitobans can achieve dual credits for program offerings in universities and colleg es in our province when they are in Grade 11 or Grade 12. To give opportunities to students that have very high skill levels and very high motivational levels to succeed educationally in our province. We have also enhanced community service opportunities in our high school system,

May 17 ,200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 19 59 opportunities to challenge for credits in our high school system, all of which are designed to make the public school experience for young Mani tobans and high school students, in particular in this case, more enriching and more meaningful for those students. The Special Ed Review Implementation Branch of Government is underway and under taking some significant action.

I am very proud again that we have achieved an implementation phase for the Special Ed Review, and I would be remiss if I did not credit the members opposite for undertaking the Special Ed Review during their tenure in office. I think that all of us in the House are concerned about providing quality special education opportunities for young Manitobans. [interjection} It is a very good idea. My colleague notes that it is a very good idea.

I am very pleased that the two governments-the preceding government and this Government have worked with a very, I would say, identicai I was going to say similar-philosophy in terms of undertaking the Special Ed Review. We are now moving forward with the implementation phase of recommendations that came through during that review process. With regard to the Special Ed Review implementation, we are very interested as a Government in supporting fetal alcohol syndrome and EBD initiatives around the Special Ed Review as well as many other recommendations of the 40-odd that came forth.

The Special Ed Review implementation team does have an interactive Web site up and running as well as a handbook into the public school system which has achieved a number of very positive responses from the field. I know that there are parents in constant touch with the Web site on an interactive level being able to communicate with the Special Ed Review team and offer advice and get immediate feedback and a dialogue that frankly was not previously available for Manitobans outside of the Perimeter Highway on issues of education.

So I am very, very pleased with the work that has begun by the Special Ed Review team and the response that has been received from the public and particularly parents around this Special Ed implementation. As well, Mr. Chairperson, in terms of meeting our commitments, we have teacher pension legislation pending around the idea of cost of living, COLA, around the provisions for providing meaningful pension amendments on a wide variety of issues. That legislation will be proceeding in due course. In the Training sector, in terms of actions we are very, very proud of our employment record since achieving office.

At 4.7 percent, Mani toba's unemployment rate for the first quarter of 2001 was the lowest in the country, and I likely should be making a ministerial statement in that regard, Mr. Chairperson, because it is a very, very proud figure for Manitoba to achieve. Our youth unemployment rate at 8. 7 percent, Mr. Chair, is 3.9 percent lower than the national average in Canada. So from a training pers pective, from an employment perspective, Mani toba, during the first quarter of 200 1, was the best in the country with the lowest unem ployment rate in Canada.

For our youth unem ployment, our rate was, as I said, 3.9 percent lower than the Canadian average. So we are very proud of that and, as I said, I likely should be making a ministerial statement on that, although I am reticent to take up the time of the House making statements like that. An Honourable Member: Well, maybe a member could ask you the question. Mr. Caldwell: Perhaps. Perhaps a member could ask a question on that particular matter.

We are committed to supporting individuals and businesses to meet the opportunities and challenges of the Manitoba labour market, and I am very privileged to be the co-chair of the Forum of Labour Market Ministers nationally with the Honourable Jane Stewart, Minister of HRDC, for the federal government. So in a very real sense, Manitoba is a leader in meeting the opportunities and challenges of both the Mani toba labour market and more broadly the Canadian labour market. So we are, both nationally and provincially, leaders in meeting

1960 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 2001 the opportunities and challenges of our labour market. * (1 6: 10) Support for this commitment is through a number of initiatives. I will briefly touch on a few. The training strategy and consultation pro cess broadly throughout the province has been something that has been very exciting to me, and very exciting for the department to enter in on in terms of strategizing around how best to expend resources on meeting a training strategy that will, in a real sense, meet the present and future needs.

Particularly the future needs of Mani toba's industry, Manitoba's businesses around developing a labour market that is meeting the needs of business and industry and around meeting the training and educational needs of those who would participate in Manitoba's labour market. I was very proud, again, a couple of weeks ago, to be joining the Premier (Mr. Doer) at Winnipeg International Airport at the Air Canada hangar to make a significant announce ment around training for the aerospace industry in Manitoba.

The aerospace industry in Manitoba is ranked third in Canada in terms of its importance, and we want to strengthen opportunities in the aerospace industry in the province. These are very high paid, high skilled occupations that are very attractive from a value-added perspective, and very attractive from the perspective of new economy in terms of information technology and in terms of cutting edge engineering. These are jobs that are extraordinarily good for the Manitoba economy generally, and extraordinarily good for individu als who avail themselves of the opportunities in the aerospace sector.

We do have a very, very strong partnership and a dynamic partnership with our friends in the aerospace business-in the aerospace industry in the province of Manitoba. We are strengthening in opportunities in international education as well. International education in Manitoba is a multimillion dollar enterprise that brings to Manitoba large amounts of money from other countries in the world. That is very, very good news for our economy in the province of Manitoba when we can attract students from international locales, be it Hong Kong, Malaysia, United States, England, places closer to home and far afield.

I think this provides Manitoba with two important things. It provides young Manitobans with an opportunity to understand a larger con text than Manitoba, or indeed Canada-unders tand realities that are international. It also allows, I believe, opportunities for young Manitobans to experience locally other cultures and diverse opinions, diverse cultures, in a Manitoba context; affords them an oppor tunity to make friends and engage themselves in opportunities outside of the borders of the province of Manitoba. It is something that is very near and dear to my heart.

I have had a tremendous opportunity to travel internationally myself over the years. Spent a number of years outside of Canada, myself, visiting many, many countries in the Third World and in the developing world, as well as the developed world. I think, from my own perspective, that has broadened my personal horizons tremendously and allowed me an education that is not always available to young people in Manitoba-or indeed young people anywhere.

So strengthening international education for Manitoba and for young Manitobans is a very, very positive thing in terms of drawing resources to this province through the recruitment of foreign students in our colleges and universities. Indeed, in our public school system, as many school divisions have undertaken. I believe the Member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Smith)-her school division in Fort Garry-has a very ambitious international education program. These are very, very positive things for young Manitobans and for those who come to Manitoba to enhance their own learning skills from other countries internationally.

On the apprenticeship sector, we continue to expand our interest in apprenticeship programs in Manitoba. There are a number of areas of apprenticeship that are under active consider ation to expand apprenticeship opportunities for young Manitobans, and allow businesses to participate in a very co-operative fashion in the development of apprenticeship training pro grams. Again, to meet their current and future labour market needs.

May 17, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1961 Mr. Chair, we have in the adult learning centre area moved from a nominal student-based funding program to a program-based funding protocol, which ensures quality of delivery of programs across the system, so that adult learners across the province can have some assurance that the program, that they enter into in adult learning centres, there is some assurance that the program delivery will be a quality program delivery, wherever they may be located-Brandon, Winnipeg, Thompson.

There is considerable expectation that outcomes are part of the justifications for support of adult learning centres. That was a very, very signi ficant step, moving away from a nominal per capita funding model to a funding model that respected and very much placed a high focus on the quality of the programs that were being delivered to adult learners. So we will continue to develop these initiatives and these plans, as well as many others, over the coming year and the years ahead, both in this mandate and future mandates.

It is a very exciting time in the educational arena in Manitoba, the post-secondary level and the public school level, at every sector and on every front. This Government is investing, as I mentioned earlier, in the operating side and in the capital side, in the public school sector, in the post-secondary sector. There have been some very exc1tmg initiatives on the capital side with supporting the universities and colleges of our province. Be it the Princess Street campus for the Red River College, downtown Winnipeg or the Engi neering Building at the University of Manitoba.

Or the nursing buildi ng at Brandon University, or the Student Union Building at the College universitaire de Saint-Boniface or Wesley Hall at the University of Winnipeg. All these are major capital undertakings on the post-secondary side as well as the major capital undertakings at the public school side. In the last 19 months, the Doer government has committed and invested over $127 million into public schools capital, on the operating side allotments to the public school sector and the post-secondary sector at historic levels.

We are encouraging attendance in our post-secondary system for students graduating from our public school system through a very comprehensive plan of tuition reductions; a 10% tuition reduction implemented last year, and sustained this year, enhanced bursary programs, partner ship with the federal government to integrate the Millennium Scholarships with these programs. It has paid very real dividends, double-digits in some cases, in increases in enrolment in the last 18 months into our post-secondary system from our public school system.

So, working together between the two departments, Advanced Education and the public education system, that is Education, Training and Youth, we have put some very, very meaningful changes in place. Both in the policy and investment levels that will benefit Mani tobans today, and well into the future, will promote economic development in our province, will promote healthy communities in our pro vince, will promote social justice broadly, an educated population broadly in our province.

That is something that this Government believes very strongly in, and indeed has become recog nized as leaders in Canada in terms of its educational investments. Of course, none of these initiatives are possible without tremendous hard work from the staff of the Department of Education, Training and Youth, as well as the staff of Advanced Education.

I have been very, very privileged to work with extraordinarily dedicated people in the Department of Education and Training, people that believe passionately in public educa tion, believe passionately in striving to improve and enhance educational excellence in this province, and work tirelessly towards that goal of providing the best education system possible for the people of Manitoba. In fact, we look internationally in terms of how we model education in the province. We want to be the best in the world in Manitoba in terms of public education.

We are constantly striving for improvements and to enhance best practices. I want to thank the staff of the department for working with me, and it is a privilege to work with them together to build educational excellence in this province. More broadly, Mr. Chair, I would like to thank the hundreds and thousands of parents, teachers, trustees and students in the public school system who strive to make Manitoba the best it can be.

19 62 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 , 2001 Mr. Chairperson: We thank the Minister of Education, Training and Youth for those comments. Does the Official Opposition critic, the honourable Member for Fort Garry, have any opening comments? Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Yes, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chairperson: Please proceed. Mrs. Smith: It is indeed a pleasure to sit here. My comments will not be as lengthy as the minister's. What I am more interested in, Mr. Chair, is getting some information on the table.

There are numerous things that I have looked at during this Estimates time, during the Supple mentary Information for Legislative Review 2001 -2002 Departmental Estimates, and there are a few questions I have there. * (16: 20) I would say that during the course of the time that the present Government has been in power, it has indeed been a pleasure to work with the current minister. I even appreciated the day he brought me a cup of coffee. I thought that was just great. [interjection] Wonderful. Having said that, I want to commend the Department of Manitoba Education and Youth.

All of the employees of that department do work very, very hard. Without them I have to say publicly there would not be the kind of expertise that we do have here now. I think their experi ence and the kind of commitment they have to education does a Jot to assist the present minis ter, and to assist us all in helping out in the education system here in Manitoba. There are definitely some new things that have come into the educational field here in the province of Manitoba, and we will be covering those new ideas as we go through the Estimates process.

It is not my wish to put political statements on the Estimates record. It is more my wish to find out information about the kinds of programs, the kinds of spending, the kinds of initiatives that the present minister has put forward. I thank the minister for his presentation today, and I thank the minister for meeting with the Mountbatten parents. That was very good to take the time to do that.

Having said that, I think what I will do is go into the logistics of what is happening in Manitoba Education and Training, because over the course of time we will be addressing some issues because of the changes that are there. As you know, the former government, and I daresay I know that the present Government, both of us have been very keen on providing the best possible education for the students here in Manitoba. I guess the reason we have the differences and similarities is because we are of different political parties.

Having governed, we will govern according to our own philosophies and according to what we think is best for the students of Manitoba. But I do believe this present Minister of Education, as the past minis ter, has very much had the good will and the education of the students here in Manitoba at heart. The present minister touched on the testing issues, touched on other aspects that have been changed since the advent of the members opposite to the position of power in the Government of Manitoba, but there are also some similarities and some changes we make as we go along. Mr.

Chair, during the course also of the last Cabinet shuffle it was good to see that Today's NDP went back into history and borrowed from the government of the late Walter Weir to place youth within the departmental title. I commend you for that because that is something that I think is a very, very good move. I would remind the committee that it was in 19 68 that Premier Weir appointed Don Craik to the position of the Minister of Youth and Education. So it is a recycling, as it were, of the name.

The creation of the new Department of Advanced Education might be something innovative on the part of the people opposite. However, this is no different than the action undertaken by the previous NDP governments with the creation of the department of colleges and universities and the department of continu ing education and manpower. Basically, we are seeing here now a recycling of former NDP policies that was expected. As we see the minis ter evolve in this year 2001, we do notice that there are a Jot of similarities with the former

May 17 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 19 63 NDP philosophies and routes that the NDP government does take. It is regrettable, therefore, that the only answer that Today's NDP has for the field of education is resorting to the structures from the 19 70s. I think it is regrettable they have wasted so much time in opposition only to present solutions that have been proven ineffective in the past. I would encourage the present Government to think of new and innovative ideas and perhaps borrow from the world-class educational prac tices that we have seen here in the year 200 I.

Although I must acknowledge history does build a foundation. It is just regrettable that so much of it has been taken and put in place once again. So it is rewritten or plagiarized from the former Pawley government education initiative and from other governments as well. My concern is with the operations of the office of the deputy minister, and what I would like to do with the permission of the minister is to-my objective is not to prolong Estimates.

We know from last year's Estimates that I think we had a really very helpful and very good dialogue from both sides of the House, and my goal is to get pertinent information that is needed. So I will be using the same style as I did last year. I would like to in the beginning, with the Chair's permission, have a global discussion under Administration and Finance. * (1 6:30) Also, even though we talk about some lines, I would like to get through the Estimates with the pertinent questions that are needed and then pass everything at the very end.

So, basically, I do not want to waste the minister's valuable time or play any games. What I would like to do, as we did last year with your permission, is just go through things in the most concise manner to get the kinds of information that is needed, if that is all right with you. Mr. Chairperson: Under Manitoba practice, debate on the Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item considered for the department in the Committee of Supply. Accordingly, we shall now defer consideration of item 16 .l .(

a) and proceed with consideration of the remaining items referenced in Resolution I 6. 1. At this time, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask that the minister introduce the staff in attendance. Honourable Minister, would you introduce your staff? Mr. Caldwell: Just before I do, Mr. Chair person, I am glad that the Member for Fort Gatry (Mrs. Smith) is not going to be political during her remarks during this Estimates pro cess.

I appreciate that, and I do appreciate her reference to former Premier Walter Weir and his initiation of a minister with responsibilities for youth, as well as her comments with regard to advanced education. Just quickly introducing staff, we have with us today to my immediate left Ben Levin, Deputy Minister of Education, Training and Youth, as well as Advanced Education; Claude Fortier to Ben's left; and near the back of the hall Jack Gille spie. I would like to thank you all for being here. Mr.

Chairperson, the member asked to have a global discussion as per last year, and we found it very difficult being that there were 50- odd appropriations in the Supplementary Information for Review, given staff and so forth. I would prefer to go through it line by line, although I would be willing to entertain some latitude towards the item for my salary if she wishes to discuss areas that may require a more global approach.

But, given what we experi enced last year with staff coming and going and so forth, it is, I think, very unfair for staff to be on call or on edge or waiting for Estimates, although I appreciate the member's comments that she wishes to get through it more quickly this year. Last year we were here for quite awhile. So I would like to go through the appropriations, if �e could, line by line. I guess there are six main appropriations and thirty-one subappropriations, the deputy has just advised me.

So I would like to go through them appro priation by appropriation, although, as I said, there can be some latitude if the member wishes to explore more broadly during the last section. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Chair, I would point out that to make it a little easier for staff and so nobody is missing, I would like to do the global just in

19 64 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17 ,200 1 Administration and Finance, from 16 .1 .(

a) to 16 .1 .(b). I do not want to get into Native Education Directorate or anything like that. There are some global questions that I have. understand the Minister's Salary will be discussed at the end, and that is just fine, but I do have some questions concerning the minister's office and some boards and commissions, and with your permission I would like to just ask them now and get it over with, if that is okay. Mr. Chairperson: Is there agreement that we will have a global discussion on 16 .1. with the understanding that we will leave the Minister's Salary to the end? We will start at 16 .1 .(b). Mr.

Caldwell: Mr. Chair, that is appropriate on those two items, just with the understanding-and we did this last year-that if there is something that we cannot answer today in that regard, that there be some understanding that we can get the appropriate information from staff. The member is nodding her head in agreement, so that is fine. Mr. Chairperson: We will commence global discussion. We are open for questions on 16 .1. Mrs. Smith Well let us start off, my concern is with the operation of the office of the deputy minister. I would acknowledge Deputy Minister Levin. I think he has done a fabulous job.

He is a very knowledgeable man, and I welcome him here at the table, but I do have some questions about his workload. Under the previous administration, there were two deputy ministers responsible for the education in the province, one mandated to edu cation and one mandated to post-secondary education. This system provided sound manage ment of the programs and policies of the Government. Now, could the minister advise how the workload in the deputy minister's office is now split? Mr. Caldwell: I, too, am extraordinarily fortunate to have a deputy minister of the calibre of Doctor Levin.

His reputation is international, and the insights he has to offer for both the public school sector and the post-secondary sector, the insights he has to offer in those are tremendous. I know that when I attend national meetings of the Canadian Ministers of Education, my colleagues around the country are agog that I have such a deputy of such calibre and skill and wisdom. So I feel very, very fortunate. In fact, Dr.

Paul Cappon, the executive director of the Canadian Ministers of Education, remarked at the last ministers' meeting to my colleague the Honourable Diane McGifford how fortunate we both were to have a deputy of Doctor Levin's calibre in Manitoba and, moreover, how absolutely fortunate we were to have Doctor Levin working for the people of Manitoba out of the minister's office. So I echo the remarks by the member, that we are indeed fortunate in Manitoba to have someone of Doctor Levin's ability and reputation representing the interests of the people of Manitoba in terms of education.

I note that Doctor Levin is blushing right now, but it is indeed a privilege to work with Doctor Levin. In terms of Doctor Levin's workload, my feeling in terms of the administrative changes that we made last year at the deputy minister level, and I have to be honest about it, I felt that we were administratively heavy at the senior level when I was appointed to the minister's position. That was a decision and the prerogative of the previous administration to have two deputies in the department.

We felt and I continue to feel that one deputy is appropriate, and ADMs, assistant deputy ministers, should be the senior level of management for the public school, post secondary side and indeed the college expansion. In the 19 80s, we did have in the province of Manitoba one deputy minister for the whole department, education and post-secondary edu cation, so it has been done before in terms of having one deputy.

Certainly, it may be depen dent upon the individual and the individual's skills and capacity for understanding and work that determines that, but I have not found in the year and a half that we have been in government that there has been any deterioration or negative

May 17,2 00 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1965 consequence or impact from having one deputy; in fact, quite the contrary. The feedback that I have received is that it made efficiencies and opportunities to have access to the deputy and the minister from the field, from the colleges from the public school system. It enhanced those opportunities. It enhanced efficiencies by making an adminis trative decision that went to one OM. Mrs.

Smith: I understand that it again is a recycling of the former NDP government's policies, and I do acknowledge that Doctor Levin has all the skills anyone could possibly need for the position he is taking right now. I do commend you for that, Doctor Levin. * (16:4 0) Having said that, though, I would like to rephrase my question, Mr .. Chair: Could the minister please advise how the workload in Doctor Levin's office is now split? How does he split his workload between the two levels? Mr.

Caldwell: Doctor Levin does have one executive assistant for the post-secondary and an executive assistant for the public school side. In terms of the workload, the workload for the Department of Education, Training and Youth and the Department of Advanced Education has not substantively changed with the split in the department. The same pressures, the same needs are there. What you have is a minister able to focus his or her attention specifically on that area, but, in terms of the programs undertaken and the activities of the deputy, they remain essentially consistent with the previous year, with last year.

The deputy, during the time when there was one department, placed his attention on the matters of the day and the agenda item of the day, and that essentially remains consistent with the split department. Mrs. Smith: Could the minister indicate whether additional resources of any sort have been provided to the deputy minister's office in this fiscal year in order to ensure that his responsibilities and that of his office can be maintained? Of course, it is no reflection on Doctor Levin; it is just that I need a complete breakdown of new people that have come into to assist Doctor Levin in his job. Mr.

Caldwell: As I indicated, I guess, briefly in the last answer, when I was appointed to Cabinet as Minister of Education and Training in October 1999 and did an assessment of the staffing at the senior levels in the department, I felt that we had too much bureaucracy, frankly, in the minister's office in the senior levels. We did make a decision to reduce the bureaucratic the numbers of full-time staff at the senior levels with a view to freeing up those resources in the bureaucracy, freeing up those resources for the classroom. So that was a decision that was made very early in my tenure.

We were very fortunate, and the members acknowledge, we were very fortunate to get an individual of Doctor Levin's calibre. I am not razzing him this time. He truly is an extra ordinary man with extraordinary skills. I appreciate him each and every day whether he knows it or not. Certainly I am gratified when I meet with my colleagues from around Canada who echo those comments, being familiar with the tremendous volume of literature that Doctor Levin has been responsible for publishing and writing over the last number of years. As I said, that may be a consequence of the individual we have.

Another individual may have other needs, but in terms of Doctor Levin's capacity for work and his capacity for thoughtful management of education in the province of Manitoba is second to none. To answer specifically the question, there have been no new staff allocations for Doctor Levin with the division or the department. Mrs. Smith: I thank the minister for that reply. Mr.

Chair, could the minister then please provide a listing of the staff that works under the minister's office and a listing of the staff and resources under Doctor Levin's office, and perhaps point out the ones that overlap because, according to what the minister has just said, I would imagine that you share those staff. Mr. Caldwell: In my own office, Mr. Chairperson, we have working for me speci fically three secretaries in the office: Pearl

1966 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17,2001 Domienik, Debbie Milani and Wendy Van Loon. I also have two staffers that work for me in my office, Jonathan Richert and Annalea Mitchell. That is the staff contingent in my office. For the deputy minister, the deputy has in his office Diana McClymont, Nicole LaRoche, Yolande Choiselat, and Juliette Sabot working for the deputy. So the total complement is nine. Mrs. Smith: Thank you so much. That sounds very reasonable. I understand the workload and the paperwork that goes through the office and the cases that go through the office need that kind of support.

Could the minister advise whether a working relationship has been developed between himself and his colleague, the Minister of Advanced Education, in order to determine a proper working relationship and allocation of resources for the deputy minister's office? Mr. Caldwell: I have known the Honourable Diane McGifford for a number of years. We have an extraordinarily good working relation ship previous to her appointment to Cabinet, in fact previous to my election to government, when she was critic for Culture and Heritage in years past and I was a city councill or in Brandon.

So I have been familiar with the Honourable Diane McGifford and her work for a number of years. We do have an extraordinarily good working relationship. Ms. McGifford, as the member may know, Doctor McGifford, frankly, was a professor of English previous to becoming an elected member at the Legislature. I believe she instructed at the University of Winnipeg as a professor in the Department of English. We have, as I said, a very, very good working relationship, and are in regular dialogue around issues pertaining to education in the province of Manitoba in a formal sense and in an informal sense.

The establishment of the Education wing of the Legislative Building here, with the main floor of the southwest wing of the building being entirely given over to education, I think has been a very, very positive structural step in terms of integrating the public school system with the post-secondary system. Oftentimes, in fact, in terms of the traffic that comes to my office, or the traffic that comes to the Minister of Advanced Education's office, there is a drop-in on both sides.

When people in the post-secondary system visit and meet with the minister, they will often stop into my office and comment on issues of interest to them as post-secondary educators, in terms of how we can better accommodate an easy transference or enrolment in their progress from the public school sector, in a formal and informal sense. I have to say primarily in an informal sense, but in a formal and informal sense, the Minister of Advanced Education and myself work together very, very closely on a regular basis on many, many issues.

It has been quite refreshing, frankly, to have two members of Cabinet devoted completely to educational issues and a colleague in Cabinet that I can share insights with, and who can share insights with me. I think it has been very, very positive. In fact, I know it has been very posi tive. I have been very pleased with the way it has rolled out. Mrs. Smith: I thank the minister for that insight. I would agree that having that

section dedicated to education and the teamwork, is huge. It is really very helpful for both. I know with any department that is reorganized there is always some additional costs that have to be incurred. Could the minister advise the members of this House as to the costs associated with the reorganization of these departments, at the deputy minister's level? Mr. Caldwell: In terms of the deputy minister's office, Doctor Levin advises me that there was no cost change in the deputy's office. In my office, there has been very, very little.

Letterhead and envelopes, but we are using up the existing stock of the Minister of Education and Training's envelopes and letterheads. So those will be replaced as we run out of existing envelopes, and so forth. As for the Minister of Advanced Education, I think there was some cost associated with hers,

May 17, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1967 but they are likely best left for her appropriation. I do not know if she has been in or not, but if you want, we could get that information from the Minister of Advanced Education. In terms of our supplementary information on our Estimates, there has been no cost to the deputy's office and very minimal in this office. That would be more of a matter of courses when we run out of letterhead or envelopes anyway. Mrs. Smith: Thank you very much. I would appreciate it if you could get me those costs.

Could the minister advise whether he, as minister, or the department recommended the split of functions? * (16:50) Mr. Caldwell: I am sorry- Mrs. Smith: Could the minister advise whether he, as minister, or the department recommended this split of functions? Mr. Caldwell: Sometimes I wish I had that much power; other times, I am glad I do not. No, it is the prerogative of the Premier (Mr. Doer) to undertake these things, and indeed that is the case here. Mrs.

Smith: Could the minister indicate whether this structure will now be permanent, or whether there will be a deputy minister of Advanced Education appointed in the future, now that you have things up and running and have the different initiatives that you are trying to approach? Mr. Caldwell: Well, as I said in reply to the member a couple of questions ago, I am very happy how this has played out in terms of redirecting resources from senior management to the classrooms of Manitoba, from my pers pective. There are no plans at present to do any further senior management structural changes. Mrs.

Smith: I will now move forward with some other questions that are related to the minister's office. Could the minister provide for the information of the Committee of Supply a list of the boards, commissions and agencies and their status, active or inactive? Mr. Caldwell: We do not have it here with us today, but I wiii bring it tomorrow and we wiii table it then. An Honourable Member: Tuesday. Mr. Caldwell: Tuesday, yes, thank you. Mrs. Smith: To clarify that, the next time the Committee of Supply is sitting you wiii have that, and I thank the minister for that. Mr.

Chair, could the minister advise as to the number of appointments he has made, either with the approval of Cabinet or by ministerial appointment? Mr. Caldwell: Just to clarify, is that to boards and commissions, Mr. Chair? Mrs. Smith: Any appointments that you have made, either by Cabinet or by ministerial ap pointments, so that covers an umbrella. Mr. Caldwell: Just to clarify again, in terms of appointments to boards, commissions, is that what we are looking at? Mrs. Smith: Yes, that is exactly it. Mr. Caldwell: Yes. Mrs.

Smith: Going back to the original question, I need to know, this side of the House needs to know, the number of appointments that have been made with the approval of Cabinet or with the ministerial appointment, and that is in boards and commissions; any appointments that have been made under the minister's or deputy minister's jurisdiction. Mr. Caldwell: We can provide that. If I could clarify, going back to what time, because obvi ously there has been a split since January and there would be different appointments made by the Minister of Advanced Education (Ms.

McGifford) vis-a-vis myself, although most of them, if not all, do go to Cabinet. If it is since the split, since January, since the split.

19 68 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 2001 Mrs. Smith: To clarify, I would like any of those appointments made since our last Estimates. Mr. Caldwell: That does clarify. Yes, I would be pleased to bring that forward. Mrs. Smith: Would the minister be able to have them for next day, when we meet in Estimates again next day? I suppose that would be Tuesday. Mr. Caldwell: It may be a bit difficult because we are at the beginning of a long weekend and it would only give one working day. In fact it would be Tuesday they would be working at it, so maybe Wednesday. Mrs.

Smith: Could we say, just to accommodate staff, by next Thursday? Mr. Caldwell: Sure. That is very generous. Thank you. Mrs. Smith : Mr. Chair, could the minister indicate what criteria he has established con cerning the appointment of any individual to the various boards and commissions of the depart ment? Mr. Caldwell: There really is no set criteria that is articulated.

I believe we are doing this across government, and what I try and do specifically is twofold: One to accommodate skill sets that are deemed to be desirable in the administration of the affairs of the responsibilities of the indivi dual board or committee. So I try and make appointments based upon how those appoint ments are going to benefit and the skill sets are going to benefit the individual institution.

A secondary consideration is that we want to achieve, in Manitoba, representation that is broadly representative of the geography of the province of Manitoba, the gender realities of the province of Manitoba, and the ethnocultural realities of Manitoba. So our boards and com mittees are a reflection of the broad population of the province, and most broadly of all, an interest and willingness to serve the public through boards and commissions. Mrs. Smith: Thank you for that answer. Mr. Chair, on October 18 , 1999, the Government appointed Joanne Cerilli to the boards and commissions co-ordinator.

This position is housed in the Department of Labour. Could the minister indicate whether the co-ordinator or any of her staff are consulted concerning appoint ments made by the minister? Mr. Caldwell: The consultation that takes place for boards and commissions is pretty broad. I oftentimes seek advice from my home com munity in Brandon, from various people liter ally.

You know, this may seen odd, but I will be having coffee with people sometimes, and I wilJ make an inquiry about people so it is a very broad-based consultation that goes into any committee member that may get an appointment to a board or commission. Of course, boards and commissions primarily are the responsibility of Cabinet, and for the most part, we do have a fairly good process of seeking wide and broadly based advice on appointments. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Chair, I thank the minister. I just have some further questions.

Is Joanne CerilJi any relation to the member Marianne Cerilli, and I cannot remember whether she is the member from what

section perhaps [interjection]-the Member for Radisson. Is there any relationship between Joanne Cerilli and Marianne CeriJli or the Member for Radisson? Mr. Caldwell: I really do not have the foggiest idea. I do not know. Mrs. Smith: Would it be possible for the minister to bring back that information next day? Mr. Caldwell: Neither of them is in our department. I suppose it would be possible, but neither is in our department. I do not even personally know Joanne Cerilli. I do not know what she looks like or anything. So it is not really our purview. Mrs. Smith : I thank the minister for that answer.

Perhaps for both of our knowledge, it would be good to see if there is any connection there in relationship to those two people. Mr. Chairperson: The hour being 5 p.m., the committee rise.

May 17,2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1969 AGRICULTURE AND FOOD * (14:4 0) Madam Chairperson (Bonnie Korzeniowski): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will now resume consider ation of the Estimates for the Department of Agriculture and Food. Previously, this com mittee agreed to proceed through the remaining sections of this department's Estimates in a chronological manner, with some flexibility. Consideration of these Estimates left off on page 31 of the Estimates book, Resolution 3.4. Agri cultural Development and Marketing. The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Yesterday we left off in the area of livestock, and some of the projects that we have focussed on.

I think we had some significant discussion yesterday about the effect of comments made, both negative and positive, and the ability for the province to create wealth through value-added processing, and those kinds of issues. I think that leads us to the next series of questions. I look at the issue of food and food processing in the province of Manitoba. We had, I think, come to a conclusion yesterday that we had probably merged, sold out to, or amalga mated in one form or another our hog processing industry into one major killing operation.

Although there are a few smaller killing opera ions, which I think are the result of many years of developmental work done by the Department of Agriculture, by individual entrepreneurs that had a vision that they could in fact provide finished products to a buyer's market out there, and I think that has proven relatively successful. I wonder if the minister could give me an indication as to what direction she has given to the Food Development Centre in how she envisions that centre to work in co-operation to further enhance the value-added initiative in the province of Manitoba. Ms.

Wowchuk: Before I answer, I would like to introduce Pat Scott, who has joined us at the table. Pat is the General Manager of the Food Development Centre. The member talks about food processing and continued value added, and certainly that is an important direction that we are going in. We believe that there is a tremendous diversity of primary production here in the province. We have some value added, but there is the opportunity for continued value added.

If you look at hog processing and we have the slaughter of animals, but there is interest from other companies and other individuals who are interested in looking at how we can add value and create specialty products and meet the demands of markets throughout the world. That is quite an exciting step that is being taken.

If you look at the Destination 2010 that we talked about earlier, the statement in Destination 2010 says: Manitoba Agriculture and Food must work with producers, investors and processors to research and develop new products and under take new and expanded processing initiatives and to launch other value-added initiatives. A co-operated effort between our department and partners is essential to seizing emerging oppor tunities for expanding Manitoba's value-added production and processing.

Under the strategic actions, when you look at the statement it is: We will support basic and applied research in support of new diversi fication and value-added opportunities through the Government of Canada, the Food Develop ment Centre, the Faculty of Agriculture and Food Sciences at the University of Manitoba and other partners. Looking at those comments, the member asks about the Food Development Centre. The Food Development Centre does play a very important role in this venture that we look at where we can continue to add value and meet the needs of consumers.

So through this centre the objective of the centre is to provide up-to-date, unbiased technical information to the agrifood industry with emphasis on leading-edge techno logies in product and process develop-ment. Also, the objective is to provide education and training to industry through technical seminars and workshops, to provide technical and federally accredited pilot plant services for the production of safe and wholesome food products. Also, to create the awareness of value added processing of the agrifood commodities,

1970 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17,200 1 to promote the creation of a seamless agrifood development process within Manitoba Agri culture and Food, from idea conceptualization to product marketing. So it is the whole range that the centre works on, and I think that this an area of growth for Manitoba and an area of tremendous opportunity.

We have the Minister of Industry and Trade joining us at the table, and her department, along with our department, works very closely to build and look for new markets, not only for the raw materials but for the processed product, and to continue to build on that great resource that we have here in the agriculture industry in Manitoba. Mr. Jack Penner: I was hoping that the minister would enunciate a personal vision that she might hold. I have read the Destination 2010 document that she read portions out of just a minute ago. I look at the strategic actions portion of the 2010.

She says: We will promote agriculture awareness in public education and Internet-based information with the use of newer technologies and with partnering involvements such as Ag in the Classroom. * (14:50) That was an initiative, I think, that the previous government had put in place a number of years ago, and had strategized and enunciated the use of newer technologies. Then the documents goes on to say: We will work with our partners to produce agricultural resource materials and launch awareness initiatives for the farming and non-farming public. I think that is an admirable statement.

Yet, in all fairness, it is very often the farm community that

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-2-32b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 2nd hansardpdf 32b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	335973730ecf8a571077d1074345cec85f93fd00

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