Manitoba Hansard — 9 February 1967 (Sitting 40, 28th Legislature, 1st Session)

28-1-40

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2: 30 o• clock, Thursday, February 9, 1967 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees Notices· of Motion Introduction of Bills 907 HON. STERLING R. LYON, Q. C. (Attorney-General) (Fort Garry) introduced Bill No. 48,

an Act to amend The Wives• and Children's Maintenance Act. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Minister of Agriculture and Conservation)'(ROckWood-Iberville): I move, seconded by the Minister of Education, that Mr. Speaker do· now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider the proposed resolution standing in my name. MR. SPEAKER: Moved by the Honourable Minister of Agriculture, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Education, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House re solve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider the following proposed resolution stand ing in his name: Resolved that it is expedient to bring in a measure respecting the Department of Agriculture and to provide, among other matters, that the cost 6f administering the depart ment and carrying out the affairs of the department be paid from and out of the Consolidated Fund. Are you ready for the question? MR. JACOB M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Speaker, i take it that we are not voting on the motion that you just read but on the motion to go into committee.

Is that right? 1\lfR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion 'carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolved that it is expedient to bring in a measure respecting the Department of Agriculture and to provide, among other things, that the cost of administrating the department .and carrying out the affairs of the department be paid for from and out of the Consolidated Fund. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, His Honour the Lieutenimt-Governor having been fnformed of the subject matter of the proposed resolution recomlTiends ·it to the House. MR. DOUGLAS CAMPBELL (Lakeside): Would the Minister tell us what is the purpose of the resolution, plese, Mr. Speaker? MR. ENNS: I apologize to the House. The· single important part of the bill is removing the word "conservation" out of the agricultural Act and changing the· name to the· Department ofAgriculture. Mr. Chairman, there are some further minor changes made that can be done at the time the new bill is' being written up, but this being the main item. MR.

CAMP BELL: Mr. Chairman, I would be interested - and I certainly accept the Honourable Minister's word as to what the proposal in the bill is - but I•d really be interested from the procedural point of view to know why it would be necessary for us to have a message from His Honour just because we're taking one word out of a bill. I don.rt expect the Honourable the Minister to answer that; I' m simply putting it on record as far as I•m concerned. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution be adopted? Call in the Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, the Committee of the Whole has adopted a certain resolution, directed me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. IN SESSION MR. J. DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honour- able Member from Springfield, that the report of the committee be received. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. ENNS introduced Bill No. ·43, The Department of Agriculture Act.

MR SPEAKER: Before we proceed, I'd like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 65 Grade 8 students from the Happy Thought School. These pupils are under the direction of Mr. Wesley, Mr.· Lesko and Mr. Polowy. This school is situated in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Brokenhead. Oh behalf of the members of the Legislative Assembly, I welcome you all here today. ·Orders of the Day.

908 February 9, 1967 MR. ELMAN GUTTORMSON (St. George): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I think it would be appropriate for me to advise the members of the House that our page boy, Wa yne Arnason, has been one of the 28 Manitoba students chosen to represent Manitoba in a Centennial Pageant this summer in Ottawa. MR. NELSON SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are proceeded with, I'd like to direct a question to my honourable friend the Provincial Treasurer.

I note an ad in both of the daily papers advising the public of a telephone number to call if you have any questions in respect to the new five percent sales tax. I wonder if he would advise the House the location of the tax office so that you could call in person if you wanted to - the location of the office. HON. GURNEY EVANS (Provincial Treasurer) (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, the location of the telephone room I think is of little interest. It •s intended to answer the telephone. I don't mind informing the honourable member that it's in this building in Room 48 in the basement.

However, it is not expected that those people in that room will deal with the public, except of course by telephone. Any enquiries in person will probably be received a,fter the introduction of the tax legislation itself. My honourable friend will recognize that the only reference to the tax itself has been in the budget address.

I will be introducing the tax measure itself very shortly and at that time we will see that the public is informed as to where they may come in person if they have to dis cuss with some expert some questions, particularly those in the retail trade will want to know, and the public will be advised as to where they can make appointments in person. MR. SHOEMAKER: A supplementary question. I take it then that no personal calls will be received until after you make the announcement in respect to this, MR.

EVANS: At this stage we're not ready to receive any substantial number of the public to answer questions in person. We are however able to take care of any enquiry by telephone by calling that number. MR. WATT: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I'd like to draw tothe attention of the honourable members of the House an event that will take place toT'I"Iorrow night at Hartney at 8: 00 o'clock, when His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor will present the Order of the British Empire award for bravery to Lyle Gibson.

As many members will recall, about two years ago while he was flying a plane for Lamb Airways up north, carrying a couple of Manitoba Telephone employees from The Pas to Grand Rapids, the plane crashed and as you will recall, Lyle, with a broken foot made his way, I think about eight miles to Grand Rapids, where he was severely frostbitten, he lost one leg, all his fingers and his thumbs. It was instrumental anyway, his herioc effort, in saving the life of at least one of the boys that was in the plane at that time.

I'm sure that all of the honourable members will be pleased to join in the proud moment with his wife and his family tomorrow night. Thank you. MR. FROESE: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Education. When can we expect tli.e bill to be introduced to the House covering the White Paper? I think that it is essential that we get this bill before the House, even if it •s not proceeded with all the way, so thit we will know the information it will contain. HON. GEORGE JOHNSON (Minister of Education) (Gimli): You possibly can.

It's being printed now, or in the hands of the Legislative Counsel now. MR. RUSSELL DOE RN (Elmwood): 1"r. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Industry and Commerce. Would he care to confirm or deny a state ment I heard this morning on a certain hot line radio show that immigrants to Manitoba and Canada are shown films that depict an average Canadian as owning a split level home and afford ing vacations in resorts like Banff, Jasper and Lake Louise. HON. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q. C. (Minister of Industry and ComJTierce) (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, I would suggest that the honourable member direct his question to the Federal Govern ment. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable the Minister o.f Education.

Inasmuch as he expects the co-operation, and no doubt will receiv·e same from every member of the House during the week that we are in recess to promote -- (Inter jection) -- I didn't get it, My question is this, in consideration of the fact that the Honourable the Minister and the department members will receive out-of-pocket expenses for their help in selling the program, will the same out-of-pocket expenses be made available to members of . the House for their efforts.

February 9, 1967 909 MR. JOHNSON: Mr. Speaker, I might take this opportunity to say a few words on this. I hope to have before the members in the next day or two - I was hoping to have it today and I was just discussing it at noon with the staff - to have a kit in the hands of every member of the House this week. I'll try and table it tomorrow along with material showing the benefits of the program and so on, and also a

schedule of all the meetings that will be held between now and the date of the vote, pointing out the speaker on that occasion and the constituency in which it is held so that the members can refer to it very quickly, and certainly the honourable members are welcome to be there. As you know, in the publicity committee with respect to the educational benefits of single district divisions, we •ve been working in close co-operation with the Teachers 1 Society and the Manitoba Association of School Trustees for some time.

It was their recommendation to me that within each division the School Inspector, with the local trustees and teachers 1 repre sentatives, would choose the site of the meeting, the date and make the arrangements and let us know. This has been done. It was also felt that in many cases a local trustee or a local teacher within that area would speak at these meetings .

Ileft the matter entirely in their hands as to who these people should be . • . . • . (Recording failure) .... .. take the Speaker in to, say, Beautifu l Plains from Swan River, I felt it was only proper to pay that guest speaker, trustee or teacher's out of-pocket expenses. I don't believe that such expenses are being paid for members of our staff. It was just authorized in cases where you asked a specific person to come a specific distance to a meeting. I'll certainly take what the honourable member has suggested under considera tion and have something to say further. HON.

OBIE BAIZLEY (Minister of Labour) (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Da y, I would like to answer a couple of questions that were put to me yesterday by the Honourable Member from Inkster. I'd like to inform the honourable member that I have not received recommendations from the Heavy Construction Industry Wages Board but I have been informed that their public hearings have been concluded, The second questi-on concerning the Manitoba Labour Board - and I might say, Mr.

Speaker, while I am looking up the answer to his second question, that both the Heavy Construction Industry Wages Board and the Manitoba Labour Board are balanced boards of both labour and management representations that make recommendations to the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council.

The honourable member asked if, under The Employment Standards Act, if the Manitoba Labour Board is considering permitting the employees of municipalities to be employed up to a total of 120 hours in a two-week period, I'd like to inform the members of the House that the Labour Board have in fact issued permits on request from several municipalities for such an order. MR. SIDNEY GREEN (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, I' d like to know whether, if a recommenda tion comes from the heavy - from the Heavy Construction Wage Board I think it was referred to by the Minister - recommending a standard 60 hour week without payment of overtime, will that recommendation be given effect to by Order-in-Council, by the Minister's Department.

And secondly, does the Minister look with favour on the Manitoba Labour Board condoning 120 hours of work in two weeks without overtime which, as I said yesterday, could mean anywhere - theoretically, it could mean 120 hours in one week - but it certainly can for practical purposes mean 70 or 80 hours a week, and does his department look with favour on these type of orders? MR. BAIZLEY: Mr. Speaker, the first part of the question of course is hypothetical; I have not received the recommendation. The second

part is, and I would like to inform the honourable member, that when we do have a balanced board representative of labour and management and this board can reach agreement, the policy has been that we favour the recom mendations of that board, I might tell the honourable member that I don't like working 60 hours a week but, quite frequently, there are circumstances even in this business where we're ob liged to work 60 hours a week. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. I don't think that I said anything about working .. .. MR. SPE AKER: ... the honourable member put a question? MR. GREEN : Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I believe the Honourable Minister misinterprets me. I said 60 hours a week without being paid overtime rates. Secondly, I would like to know when the question becomes unhypothetical, that is when he receives a recommendation from the Heavy Construction Industry Board, would the House be advised before that recommendation is translated into an Order-in-Council?

910 February 9, Hl67 MR. LEONARD A. BARKMAN (Carillon): I wonder if it's in order if I ask the Honourable Minister of Labour if I'm in order to congratulate him on this piece of legislation allowing the municipalities to extend the number of hours if the conditions are agreeable to bo�h. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Order for Return. The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr . Speaker, I move, seconded by the"Honourable Member for Lake�ide, That an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing the following info!'11'1ation respecting San Antonio Gold Wines at Bissett, Manitoba, namely.: 1.

Is the mine still being oilerated under the management of �aymond Skogsbert? 2, Are present operations proving profitable? .. · · . 3, The amount of the present indebtedness of the Company to the. Government of Manitoba. 4. if theanswer to 11311 a!X>ve is none, when was the indebt�ess paid? MR. SPEAKER preseuted the motion. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, we should be glad to accept tlJjs Order. so far as the informa tion is available to the government, and subject to the reservation on information of a confi- dential nature. · · · · MR.· SPEAKER put the question and after a voice v()te declared tlie motion �arried. MR.

SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable the Pro vinCial Treasurer. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. , MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Speaker, may we have the indulgence of tne �ouse to have this matter stand? MR. SPEAKER: Second reading Bill No. 17. The Honou rable Mini�ter of Mines and Natural Resources. · MR. EVA,NS: May I have this stand, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the second reading of Bill No. 24. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. CAMPBELL: May I have this stand please, Mr. Speaker? . . MR. EVANS: I beg to move, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House re solve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Agriculture. · · MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, with the Honourable MeiiJber for Arthur in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 8- 1 (

e) MR. GUTTORMSON: Yesterday I directed a question to the Minister of Agriculture re garding why there was a big drop in expenditures for the ARDA Agreement and he said he would provide me with the information today, . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, if the Honourable MeiiJber for St. Qeorge looks at his estimates he will see that U:nder appropriation (c), Extension Services, a considerable increase from $34,000 to$136, 000, That is where the major difference is.

This is primarily because of the four manpower agents who were originally -- or last year in the first appropriation that he refers to where the reduction occurred, they were all lumped into the. general administra tion expense and now that this has become an operational part of the branch it is put under the branch where it properly falls into. Tharik you, . MR. CAMPBELL: Mr.

Chairinan, when the House finished its sitting yesterday I had just risen to make a few remarks on the subject of ARDA and I had been as�11g why it was that the incumbents of the front row, the senior Cabinet Ministers, and by that I .mean the ones who have been in office a longer time than my honourable friend, were not answering some of the questions on the ARDA program rather than leaving it all to the new gentleman, whom I agree has been doing very well in connection with it.

Hoping that we don't have to have. an ex tended debate on ARDA when it shows up in each_and every one .of the.departm�nts, I thought that perhaps I could encourage some of the other Ministers to take part at this time and then we wouldn't have to develop the matter when their estimates came up, However, the. Honour able the Minister of AgricultUre seems quite willing and able. to answer, and ifJ;he others don't feel like getting in I don't suppose my encouragement will cause. them" to do so.

February�. 1967 911 (J\!B. CUIPBELL cont'd . .) But the complaint that I have with regard to ARDA leads me to believe that it really isn't ARDA•s fault. I think it's the fault of the politicians, both federal and provincial.

ARDA, in my opinion, has been o\·erspld and under-accomplishe d, and I apply the same suggestions as. far as Ottawa is concerned that I do to my honourable . friends in this House, because it came. out in the very first stages \\·ith a great big burst of publicity and it was going to do so much and it was going to help agriculture so greatly, and then as my honourable friend from Brokenhead mentioned the other day, a program that was supposed to be primarily, if not entirely for agriculture - agriculture and rural development, has been doing much more for other departments than it has for agriculture. :\ow whether it has just been the natural acquisitiveness of the l\<inisters in other de partments that have spirited away the fund or whether it •s been that they just took advantage of this program, and an altogether too easy to deal with Federal Department in my opinion, to siphon off the funds into particular projects of theirs, whether that's the reason or whether the reason is that the administration has simply found that they can't do very much for agri culture under this program, I don•t know.

But it seems to me that the fact is, and my honourable friend in the Department of Education has got a real big bite .out of this; my hon- . ourable friend who used to be l\�inister of Mines and Natural Resources - I imagine thai .he prctably was Minister at the time that some of the programs were instigated there,. maybe it was his successor, I'm not sure -;but l\�ines and Natural Resources seemed to get quite afair share; and certainly the \\'ater Development Program has got a .lot. But each and every one of these, in my opinion, has simply been doing the things that they were doing any"V.·ay.

They're not new, As I read the red booklet that we have here, I see major drainage work such as the 1:\orquay Floodway, the Hespeler Floodway and the Grassmere Drain; and many of these that have been on the books for years.

I don't blame my honourable friends a particle for taking some of this money that seems to flow so easily and that has so little attention paid to it from Ottawa and diverting it to their purposes where they can, but to try and pretend that these are new programs - sure they're extensions - but to try and pretend that they are new programs and that they're something that ARDA has been responsible for develqp_ing as an assistance to agriculture - and sure, good drainage assists agriculture - but this has been under way for go odness knows how many years.

But so far as I can determine, very very little has been ac complished except studies so far as agriculture itself was concerned. 1:\ow this is one place where, inasmuch as I have considered it to be rather unfair that the Honourable the l\�inister has been, asked to sort of defend the non- accomplishments of ARDA and to explain what they should have been doing, I think he perhaps is in a good position because of his own constituency and his own interest in that constituency to know what has been accom plished in agriculture, so I hope that I'm back on ground that is familiar to him.

But my submission is, as the lawyers say, my submission is that a g reat deal of money has been spent -that is as I look at money, a great deal - but it has gone into studies of one kind and another - and I•m talking about agriculture, not the other departments - nothing very concrete has yet emerged.

I know that there is a feeling among some of my honourable friends opposite that I was - when I was in office - that I was not one that rushed head-over-heels into expensive programs and uncontrolled debt and this sort of thing, but I can say with all the as surance in the world that my honourable friends here are certainly not dashing headlong into these programs that they have been proposing for the Interlake. Blueprints and studies and all of this, yes - lots of them; and propaganda sheets, yes; but what has been done outside of the studies?

I hold in my hand an issue of l\�ay 1st , 1964, which tells about the programs that are going to be initiated there.

It •s headed: "Sweeping recommendations ranging from increased educational and technical training facilities, more intensive farming operations, reorganization of the fishing and lumber industries" -- I just pause there to say that even in 1964 this govern ment had been in office pretty nearly six years and my honourable friend, who has now been promoted to Treasury so that he could have the dubious honour of bringing in a sales tax, had told us of the great things he was going to do for fishing when he first took over in Mines and 1:\atural Resources back in 1958, but here are sweeping recommendations about what's to be done in fishing after six years.

Incidentally, they•re contained in other studies since that, and I won't read the many things that were planned here practically three years ago, Mr. Chairman. Here •s another one under date of May 11 1964, all of these issued on the same day: "Government programs designed to help the people of the Interlake country develop the full

912 February 9, 1967 (MR. CAMPBELL cont•d.) . . . . • potential of the area were unveiled April 24th and 25th at twin conferences at Arborg and Stonewall." I'm not complaining about these. They're good. The conferences are good; the recommendations, fine; but what has been accomplished?

We see in the Public Accounts here statements of the expenditures of last year, and I •ve gone back further than last year but I wouldn't burden my friends with them at all, but you look at Page 143 in the Public Accounts and you•ll see there some very sizable expenditures for the Canada-Manitoba ARDA Agreement - $106, 000-odd - and the vast majority of it is for salaries and wages and cars and this sort of thing.

Of course there are studies that are being made and of course you need some studies and you need some programs to do this sort of thing, but this is the third or fourth or fifth year that the studies have been going on and what •s been don.e for agriculture? What's actually taken place that's helped agriculture up there except the studies themselves, and when are some of them going to be implemented? "Honourable George Hutton" - and this is the same one that I was reading from before - "Honourable George Hutton said we•re breaking new land. " This is three years ago.

I don't know whether the land has been lying fallow ever since or what happened, but "we •re breaking new land; we •re making our bets that the people living on these basic primary resources can, making common cause with their government, push up productivity. 11 Well, have they done it? And this is an interesting - this is an interesting statement - it •s a quote of Jllr. Hutton: "The people of the Inter lake were not promised results by tomorrow." Well, it •s good they weren't, for this is three years practically.

I don't say nothing has been done but I would like to know what •s been done in addition to the studies, and I'm not going to read any more of that particular one. Once again we have fishing mentioned, that an intensive study of fishing should be made. But that 15 what my honourable friend the Provincial Treasurer got all fixed up nine years ago pretty nearly.

He started right in as soon as he became Minister of Mines and Natural Resources to overtake that awful neglect that he was aware of that had been going on for all the time before he became Minister and he went right to work; but now, now they're still telling them that they need to fix up the fishing industry. I'm glad to see that my honourable friend the Minister of Education is making some notes because he -- shall I make his speech for him and tell you what he's going to say? "You just should have seen what it was like before we came in here!. You just should have seen.

I know what it·was like before we came in here!" He•s so much better when he•s speaking like that than when he's reading a brief that the departmental officials have prepared for him. I sure want to encourage him. Well now, admitted that things were just awful when you came in, of course it was just terrible to think of what the poor people had had to go through up there before my -- but my honourable friends have been here for pretty nearly nine years.

Sure, the Minister of Education has taken advantage of some nice easy-to-get federal money in order to start a great program up there in education - Sure that •s excellent - others have done some· thing, but what is accomplished so far for agriculture? The Birds Hill Park that my honourable friend from Brokenhead mentioned? Sure - fine thing, but does it help agriculture? They practically stole some land from some people out there that were trying to make a living in agriculture and didn't want to leave it; you take it away from them and make it into a recreation area.

I don•t see that it's helping agriculture very much. However, I'm getting away from this statement. 11The advantages of industrial develop ment were outlined by Mr. Drysdale. " We were going to have a lot of new people in there. "Other speakers included D. A. Young, an economist; Robert Christians on, rural sociologist" - we•ve got sociologists working up there - "Wallace of the soil division; Lightly of the Depart ment of Educat ion.

" Here's another one the same day, May 1st again, 1964, pretty nearly three years ago: ''A land use program tailored to fit the peculiar needs of Manitoba •s Inter lake country may soon be formulated. " Well they've been going to be formulated now all the time. I see the estimates; I look at Public Accounts; I see that money is being spent; I can't see where the agriculture it self has made any great change and I would like to know from my honourable friend exactly what has been done as far as agriculture is concerned.

I look at the red book-- incidentally, I want to thank my honourable friend the 1\�inister for providing us with this black and green book. I got it only today and I haven't had the time to look it over very carefully; but in the quick glance that I've been able to give it, it seems to me that it•s rather an outline of what the situation is now than either what is proposed in specific terms or what has been done. It seems to be to me - maybe I'm misjudging it - but it seems to me to be a kind of a recounting of the present situation.

February 9, 1967 913 (MR. CAMPBELL cont'd.) So, Mr, Chairman, I'll finish these few remarks on the note on which I started.

I think the ARDA program has been grossly oversold and I don't think - I certainly don't think it's the fault of the honourable the -- certainly not the fault of the present Honourable Minister of Agriculture, maybe not the fault of the previous Minister of Agriculture so much either, that they have allowed their colleagues to get a hold of this. money that was coming in to spend on their various projects rather than getting anything specific for agriculture except a lot of studies and a lot of meetings and a lot of suggestions about what they're going to do.

I mentioned yesterday that the Honourable the Attorney-General, the present Honourable the Attorney-General, had victimized the Federal Government in this regard too, because he blithely told us here last year or the year before when we were accusing him of paying an un conscionable price for some land up in the Portage la Prairie district, and some in the .Inter lake district as well, he gleefully reported that the Federal Government had paid half of it and he thought that was a great accomplishment to put it over the Federal Government in that way.

Well, maybe it is, but it •s all taxpayers' money just the same, and I'm admitting that in my opinion the Federal Government is equally to blame with the province in being too easy in hand ing out this money and handing it out too much on the basis of plans and programs and sociolo gist studies, and other people who have gone in there - what was it, the Hedlin-Menzies Report that my honourable friend the former Minister of Agriculture and I had such a discussion about here?

I •m glad that the present Minister knows the situation up there and I think he'll bear me out that these people don't need all the crocodiletears that are being wept over them. Certainly they can stand some help and they can do with some advice and all the rest, but by and large they've been getting along pretty well thank you, and I didn't like- I didn't like the terms that were used in that report that was mentioned in here where you held up people who lived in that plrt of the country as being in poverty. Poverty means different things to different people.

Some people can get along living in a community that they've grown up in and that they're used to and know how to take advantage of, they can get along on an income and be happy and make a contribution on an income that would look mighty bad to some other people. Did somebody say that's not true? -- (Interjection) -- Not true? MR. GREEN: ..... the Honourable Member is not telling the truth. I•m saying that his opinion is incorrect. MR. CAMPBELL: My opinion is incorrect in that?

Well, I would certainly suggest that the honourable friend who makes this statement, if he had to desert his law practice, his remunerative law practice, and go up and live and make a living the way these people do, that he would have. a very thin one. He•d find it very difficult and he would feel that that was a desperate hardship, but I say to him that the people up ther.e can get along fine and enjoy them selves and make a contribution and be happy, maybe just as happy as my honourable friend is •. If my honourable friend wants to debate that further, I•ci be glad to any time. So, Mr.

Chairman, I don't intend to talk ARDA on the other departments as they come up, but I did want to give some helpful advice to my honourable friend the new Minister of Agriculture, whom I've taken quite a liking to, because I think he talks sense and I want to give him a little help. I want to suggest to him that he watch the money-grabbing friends of his in the other departments and let them put all they want to over Ottawa, if Ottawa is stupid enough to let them get away with it o. k., but don't let them grab it all away from agriculture. MR.

JOHNSON: Last evening the Honourable Member from Lakeside, whom I continue to think of as the Leader of the Liberal Party and I realize that's history, but I •ve always had such a high regard for my honourable friend that I hesitate to get into this debate. There's. one area which I think he- and I will agree with him to a point - but he says, 11What about ARDA? The other departments are stealing all the money from agriculture.

" I think the significant thing is that after these so-called philosophers and sociologists, which my honourable friend has some reservations upon from time to time, despite the fact that these men have worked closely with the people now for three years, the significant thing I think, �lr. Chairman, is that the people of the Interlake themselves identified education as number one priority, and as they studied their problems they saw it as the total problem, and both the federal and provincial officials, and governments I believe, feel it is proper to attack the Interlake as a total problem.

It's not enough to upgrade the educational facilities alone in isolation; you have to look at the people you •re dealing with. I give two examples of how -- and my honourable friend first of all from Lakeside knows perfectly well that as important as water and sewage is to the urban dweller, drainage is to the farmer. Now under ARDA two huge drains· through the Inter lake

914 February 9, 1967 (MR. JOHNSON cont'd.) . . . . . from Dennis Lake, the CaJY�p Morton drain and the Meleb drain, these huge drains, lOO percent drains, have completely change the topography of a large part of the Inter lake area and made viable farm units in areas that were swampy previously. I can take my honourable friend to two or three young farmers who after the drainage was put in in connection with this ARDA program have very wonderful farms but not quite enough land. One of them really is a little - is uneconomic - he's only got half a

section and he has to keep a herd of cows to pay his grocery bills because he hasn '1: got enough land that when he does get a good crop he can see his way clear without doing a degree of mixed farming. He wants to get into grain. Therefore, if his neighbours -- two uneconomic units like this are together, it would appear that you have to work with these people and point out the problem before them. In two of these cases these young farmers have made a personal decision to come back to school.

Under the basic upgrading programs there are more farmers, young farmers, people in the Interhike, now in basic upgrading classes under the Manpower Program than anywhere else in the province, because of this homework that was done throughout the area. I know two of these young men, one of them I r �fer-red to who has the half

section farm, he feels that his -- he would love to farm but he hasn't been able to acquire enough land. It's excellent land· now that it •s drained, but he can't get into the kind of production that makes it a fully economic unit. I have another person, a young lad with about Grade 8 schooling who has a quarter

section - about a quarter

section and a half - and with supporting his widowed JY�Other and children on a small unit like that with cattle alone, the departJY�ent have been working with him - the Department of Agriculture - and he•s an uneconomic unit. He's not going to be. able to have the kind of life he should have; he sees it; he wants to make a break, The break comes under a basic upgrading; he can come back and take agricultural courses and so on. But the idea under ARDA was you have to complement education with the agricultural changes that are coming about.

You have to have many instruments at your elbow to assist you in making a farmer economic with such outlets as schooling, on-the-job training, upgrad ing, bringing back to technology, putting into another occupation so his neighbour will have an economic unit in that area. The people are seeing this and they identified it, not the govern ment, and as the Minister of Agriculture said so ably last night, you just don •t push people around, you have to lead them; you have to point out the opportunities to them and they will I am sure make the decisions.

I also do agree however with the member from Lake side when he talks about poverty. These people are not in that sense of the word "poverty stricken. 11 I guess the two most badly affected people on the west shore of Lake Winnipeg are my two uncles on a homestead settled by my grandfather, gosh knows how many years ago -- (Interjection) -- yes, north of Riverton, where when I was a boy, in the meadows, it's now all Lake Winnipeg. You're in a cyclical change today that took place between 1890 and 1900, In the town of Gimli, no permanent resi dent has lived on the lake front; they moved out of there years ago.

The Winnipeg people came and bought the cottages on the lake front and put two feet in the lake, and it •s the same all along that lake. But these people in these flooded areas north of Riverton where I'J'YI familiar with -- I can remeJY�ber from the year one the farJY�ers talking about the possibility of a dike holding back this lake, but they never thought it could ever come to pass. This year, 35 miles of diking was developed from Riverton north to' protect 40 sections of land in the \\'ashow Bay area that the member from Lakeside may be familiar with.

That area was settled by people i.rntil 1958 when the former member had a very keen interest in it, and people came in there, and it's good land, but they put them there without any drainage. Crop failure after crop failure due to flooding every year. No land was sold in there since 1958, not another one until the drainage could be tackled and people would have a chance if they did move in. This sumJY�er, to a height of 721 feet, 35 JY�iles of dikes have been built, somewhat like down in the southern end, and the farmers appreciate this.

For· the first time these farmers along that lake, many of them have had crops. The former member told me the other day he thought it was one of the best things that happened there. These people got their crops off; they're going to have a crop in next spring; they've got protection to this level. The town of Riverton was threatened and its dikes were raised to 722. As I was saying, it •s the concern of the government for these problems that have been ignored or put aside for 80 years that indicates I think to the people that we mean business, and the government of today means busi ness.

We•re not turning our backs on them.

February 9, 1967 915 cr..m. JOHNSON cont'd.) But there are people in that area behind those dikes, such as I mentioned, who are not going to move out, and a sociologist would come in and say they're uneconomic units. Sure, they're uneconomic, but heck, they sell $2,000 worth of beef a year; they do $1,000 worth of trapping; and one of these fellows told me when the water came up last spring he said, "l didn't need any engineers to tell me the water had come up, Mr. and l\Irs. Muskrat were walk ing down the front road by the droves getting out before the high water came.

" But this .is how many of them live and they're happy and they're good citizens. But they look a little bit be yond their noses and they say, "But there's not a hope here for our children; we must give them the proper educational opportunities, maybe technology and so on will find other ways of using our land. and the resources that are there, 11 They say education is No. l, tied into land usage which is No. 2 priority in their minds, which means drains, which means vocational counselling for uneconomic farmers who may wish to move out, and I think real progress can be made.

I think Ottawa is right, and l\�r . . Sauve, when he says it has to be a total package deal or I'm not too interested .. That's why we will be, under this ARDA agreement, putting our provincial side of it into the educational pro gram. We •re not spiriting funds away from Agriculture, The people I think see this as a total program, and I think when the Minister ·has signed his agreement with Ottawa, it will be all the more clear to the honourable members.

But the drains, the drainage improvement in the last eight years or nine years in that constituency and in the Interlake is fantastic: the Washow Bay drain is cleaned out; protective. dikes; the Camp Morton.d rain; the Meleb drain; down south the Grassmere drain; Dennis Lake and Fish Lake coming into the Camp l\�orton-Meleb drain; and the Boundary Creek drain.

These drains have changed the whole concept of farming in that area and small individual farmers appraised of this, talking with their neighbours, talking as members of the ARDA committee with the experts and with government representatives, are making decisions that are revoluntionary and I hope will continue, There are those others who will never move out, who will stay behind the dike. They're happy in their . way of life, but looking to the future, these other programs must come forward. I would like to say that that big lake -- the biggest problem there of course in high water is the wind.

My people tell me today that the lake is higher right now than it was this time last year. I think we •re in for this cyclical change of high water and it's the wind that does the damage, and no engineer has yet discovered how to protect the shoreline from northeast winds of four days 1 duration, Last summer I saw a rock the size of that table serving as a break water in front of a cottage lifted up and thrown 30 feet just as though it was a marble the force of the water and the ero!;lion it causes, In fact, the post office in Gimli used to be where the lighthouse is now in the early days of that community.

This is a tremendous problem. The federal people have no answer for it, and we're at the mercy of the wind and waves to a large extent until we find some solutions to much of this problem, and I think I probably lived last summer up .and down that road to the point of exhaustion and exasperation at times. I should mention too --of course the member for Lakeside -- I'm not going to bore the House with the long list of achievements which I think have been brought about in the last few years.

Anyone is aware of the road development in the Interlake which is coming along so well, quite a far cry from the old days, The school development - and that is history- over 100 one-roomed schools in that area today doesn't speak too well of the progress in the past, and I know there wasn't the money in those days that probably is available for this today, but this is why we need more money. If we're going to upgrade our people, we're going to put in the resources to give them the modern way of life, we have to spend money. But the farmers are happy with the drains; they are happy with the roads. Do you know, Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to tell the member from Lakeside -- it's a funny thing that happened during elections, you know, during the election the opposition - I guess the Liberal opposition - one of the priority things in the election platform in my constituency was a lighted bicycle path to the airport. I would suggest he would ad.vise his inner junta that this was not a priority in the eyes of the farmers who were looking at education and -- (Interjection) --a lighted bicycle path to the airport fro111 town.

The second thing was that -- Johnson sitting in the Cabinet there, unconscionable he, allowing the poor people of that constituency to be flooded because the Nelson was now dammed. What utter, utter baloney! That's what I had to live with, so I think I have the right to mention it to my honourable friend just in passing. And the fisher111en, they were all at Warren's Landing, they knew - they knew - and I would suggest

916 February 9, 1967 (MR. JOHNSON cont1d.) . • . . . you consult the poll. Now, as far as I'm concerned, I really think that roads all the way along that lake to Matheson Island, the diking, the total ARDA program which visualizes not just education, but education as the priority the people have identified, complementing those other measures which the agricultural extensionist and others see in the development of land usage and so on, must go hand in hand if you're going to upgrade the whole area. One of the things that has bothered me, Mr.

Chairman, and is still bothering me, was last year when the new grants came in from the Federal Government who initiated the increased manpower training grants - the basic $35. 00 a week for a single man going up to $86. 00 a week for a man with two or more children and so on - these increased allowances resulted in many many dozens and dozens of these uneconomic farmers making a personal decision to come !:Jack to school, and at that time I said to the Deputy Minister of Manpower, Mr.

Kent, I think this is a wonderful thing for that area, because if we upgrade and train the uneconomic ones it makes it economic for those who decide to remain behind and farm. And now, as you know, that program is threatened and it's probably 11Kaput" as of the 1st of April, for only those who have been out of school three years will be able to take advantage of that program. I do hope they will reconsider this most care fully. However, Mr. Chairman, it's interesting to hear the Member for Lakeside, but I just wanted to make that point that I agree; poverty - no. Poverty to me means poverty of mind and body.

These people are not poverty-stricken in that sense. They're proud, courageous, able people. With respect to fishing, a great deal has been done, Mr. Chairman, with respect to the fishing industry. There has been a general upgrading of the fishing industry. Yes sir. Go and look at the stations and see what the men used to live in a few years ago when they fished, the working conditions and so on.

But the fishermen have identified their problem, through joint co-operation with the officials and with the departmental people of government, and they tell me, and they mean this and they're right, that you'll never rationalize totally the fishing on Lake Winnipeg unless you rationalize marketing which has been in the hands of the very few, and once you rationalize that you can rationalize the industry on the lake. And these men, not us, they see education as one of the factors that will complement the change that has to occur there.

If they can come in and retrain for another occupation, if the Federal Government will follow through on the Wcivor Report and make this kind of thing, rationalize this marketing or help them, set up this board, I think you will see the rest will look after itself. , The uneconomic ones will get out; the economic fishermen will stay in the business. You have to rationalize the marketing of the fish but it has to be a big one, not like the Saskatchewan -- I see the NDP Leader looking at me -'- not the Saskatchewan experiment.

This calls for all fresh water fish in the three western provinces and northwest going through one marketing board, then it will succeed, -- (Interjection) -- No. Did you read our state ment to the Mclvor Commission? That's the Mclvor Report. I commend you to it, and I'd be happy to go over it with you too and explain it.

In general, while the charge is that not enough is happening fast enough under ARDA, when it is part of a total program of the breadth that is being visualized and because of the people 1s participation and their identification of the problems and their priorities, I think we •re on the right track and I certainly support the 1\�inister of Agriculture's approach to this at this time. MR. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the New Democratic Party) (Radisson): 1\�r.

Chair man, I'm quite interested in listening to the Honourable the Minister of Education, and par ticularly when he considers the fishing industry of Manitoba. MR. JOHNSON: When he what? MR. PAULLEY: When you talk of the fishing industry in Manitoba.

When he makes such statements of just listen or read what we said in reply or in conjunction with the Mclvor Report on the fishing industry, I say to him and I say to the government that they have had ample op portunity in the past to join with the other two prairie provinces insofar as fresh water market ing of fish is concerned and they have refused, My honourable friend mentions to us here in this House about the Fish Marketing Board in Saskatchewan and he says we don't want a board of that nature.

Well, there may have been deficiencies in the Fish Marketing Board of Saskatchewan and it's not my purpose here to uphold what they do in that province, but I do say to my honourable friend who is quite concerned, and properly so, with the fishing industry in Manitoba, that if the government of this province had taken as much interest in the past as ap parently they're giving lip-service at the present time to the Mclvor Report, the fishermen of Manitoba would not have been in the continuing dire straits that they have been over these years.

February 9, 1967 917 (MR. PAULLEY cont 'd.) . . . . . Here in the Province of Manitoba, long before the Mcivor Report, we •ve had at least three commissions looking into the fishing industry of Manitoba, and I say to the government where are those reports today. I suggest that they're still buried in the files of some of the Ministers in the present government and no action has been taken. It 's true the fishermen have a problem and I suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that if this govern ment takes the same action in respect of the Mcivor Report that they have on the other reports which have been investigated - or Commissions which have investigated into the fresh water fishing industry here in the Province of Manitoba, the fishermen of Manitoba will still be among the more deprived people in our community insofar as annual income is concerned. So I say to my friend, this afternoon he suggested to us that we should read what their statement was respecting tiE Mcivor Commission.

I accept that and will try and obtain a copy, but if it's simply to give lip-service to another commission in the fishing industry, Mr. Minister, the fishermen will be no better off as a result of the Mcivor Report than it has been under other reports that you and your government have received and the previous government as well. MR. JOHNSON: Mr. Chairman, I don 't know what reports my honourable friend is re: ferring to but I know one thing, and he knows it too, that that American combine controls the marketing of fish and his Saskatchewan friends had to sell all their fish through our Winnipeg companies.

They had to; they couldn't break the market with that. We all know, as do the western provinces, that it has to be one marketing board for all of us to make it truly effective. That •s in the Mcivor Report. That •s what we suggested to them, and the other provinces, as I understand it, agreed with us. Yes sir, that's right. We'll be glad to go over the report with my honourable friend. The fishermen believe it and they endorse the government's sub mission.

They're happy with Mcivor •s recommen dations, such as follow through in this vein, and we•ve undertaken to support it in writing and I hope they will follow through. MR. PAULL EY: My honourable friend says the fishermen are happy with the Mcivor Report and I don •t hesitate to say that possibly they are, but they were also happy and took

part in compiling the reports to which I make reference, and if my honourable friend hasn't _ seen them in government, I in opposition believe still have them in my files. MR. JOHNSON: I've read everything there is on fish. MR. PAULLEY: Well if you•ve read it then you should know of the fact of other com missions. My honourable friend talks about the joining of the other provinces in trying to break the cartel, the monopoly on the fishing industry.

This was what Saskatchewan did at tempt to do and they didn •t have the support of this government, because this government philosophically doesn 't believe in the co-o perative enterprise in fishing industry basically or any other, and this is historic of that government -- (Interjection)-- I beg your pardon? MR. JOHNSON: .•.. supported co-ops and ..... . MR. PAULLEY: Oh, certainly. Lip-service to co-ops, yes ; a department of co-ops, no. You have never really considered the position of the co-ops here in Manitoba. MR. ENNS : Mr. Chairman, we have some 23 active, or 21 active fishing co-ops.

Some of them are doing very well, some not so well as can be understood. We •re dealing with people that are only beginning to grasp the management of their own businesses. This is a particular program that I have found very interesting, very early in my role as Minister having made the trip up north to the different lakes, a program that I certainly will most heartily endorse and wish to proceed with in a very vigorous manner. MR.

PAULLEY: The words of my honourable friend the rookie Minister of Agriculture are like a breath of spring air penetrating into the gloom, and I trust and hope that my honour able friend will be able to convince his colleagues in Cabinet of what he has said to us today. Of course there's co-ops that have been established here in the Province of Manitoba insofar as the fishing industry. I didn't have to be told that by the Minister. We knew it.

But there are co-ops that have died as well because the government didn •t take the proper action and the proper steps to see that the co-ops received a decent price for their product, and the Minister of Education knows that full well. He knows that even in today, today when we •re talking of affluency here there and everywhere, that the average take of the fisherman is less than $1, 000 a year. Is this good? Can we obtain self-satisfaction because of this by saying you should have read what we had to say about the Mcivor Report?

Again I say to my honourable friend we have had reports galore on the fishing industry in Manitoba and your government, that government has done little or nothing to improve the situation in the eight years that they have been in office.

918 February 9, 1967 MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, the last claim that I would make is that I'm an expert in agricultural mat ters. I hadn't intended to participate in. this debate except that it appears to me that both the Honourable Member from Lakeside and the Honourable the l\�inister of Education are apparently quite content to apologize for poverty on the basis that the people who live in poverty are very happy to do so, and, Mr.

Chairman, I strongly suggest that this is the type of argument that has been used historically to condone conditions of poverty and without historical succe ss, that that is not the true state of affairs. It's true, Mr .. Chairman; that people have the strength and courage and sometimes the initiative to withstand very painful circumstances, to overcome such circumstances and to obtain happiness even in the face of adversity, but the fact that they live in adversity certainly limits the.ir opportunities for con- tentment and satisfaction,. as. my honourable leader has put it. · I •d like t.o mention, l\�r.

Chairman, that the arguments that took place in the Congress of the. United States. in 1860, the arguments that were put forward by the plantation owners were that .their negroes were very happy and that they should be left alone, that. they were li;,.ing in great contentment and that nothing had to be done for theTY1. The same argument was put for ward by the aristocrats who thought that the French Revolution was an unnecess ary event in human �ffairs.

The same argument was put forward by the feudal .barons who said that their serfs were very happy and didn't want any improvement, and I think the same arguTY1ent comes to this House on the basis that people who are living and suffering, and this has happened with people thi-ough the ages, are able, because they are human beings, because they have the strength to overcome indignities, are able to gain some satisfaction out of life, but I, .Mr; _ Chairman, don't recognize that as the objecti ve of the government of this province.

My hon ourable friend says it would be difficult for me as a lawyer to enjoy happiness in their circuTY1- stances. and I agree with him, but I think, Mr. Chairman, I. have. seen it both ways and in the last analysis I think that it's easier to be happy with money than without it. MR. CAM:PBE LL: Mr .

Chairman, I am sure that I would be worsted if I attempted to engage in a sociological argument with my honourable friend the Member for Inkster, but if he won't accept what I said before then I• il turn it around and I• ll assure him that .the people of whom l: was speaking would be most unhappy, most unhappy to come down and change places with him - most unhappy.

What my honourable friend doesn't understand, having never lived in the country, he doesn't understand the fact that fal:"TY1ers and fishermen and trappers and others who work in what is properly called "close to nature, " can get a lot ofsat isfaction out of working in that way and they can take a lot of pride in the fact that they do those things that my honourable friend looks to be very humble tasks, but they are mighty important tasks, just as important as standing up and defending som ebody in front of the courts, every bit as im portant and requiring every bit as much education of the kind that counts, education for living.

MR. GREEN: ...... .. . paid for it. I don't say that they are not .. .... . MR. CAMP BE LL: .. .. ... . and when my honourable friends are inclined to weep croco- dile tears over people who don •t live in split level houses, people who liv:e in very modest homes of their own - and they are homes, just as much as the split levels that my honourable friend talks about - live there and get along and are happy and are making a contribution on incomes that to them look to be very little.

I have people in my constituency, many of them, many of them that have followed that way of life for years, mos t of them fisherTY1en and trappers. They like that life.. They wouldn •t change it on a bet, and all the soc iologists in the world that want to go out and try to get them to change it won't be succe ssful . Perhaps the young people com ing there too will take a different attitude and if they want to that'E> fine, but if on the other hand they want to carry on in what they're doing, that's 0. K. too, and this is not poverty in spite of what my honourable friend says. MR.

SAMUE L USKIW (Brokenhead): Mr . Chairman, I don't intend to take too much time on the subject matter before us. I think we •ve dealt with it at great length but I do want to ma ke some observations regarding the various comme nts made since yesterday evening. l\�y honourable friend the MiniE>ter of Education reminds us that farmers in the area affected by the 'flood waters are indeed happy people with their situation. -- (Interjection) -- Yes you did. You said people. wo.n't move out; they're happy where they are; MR. JOHNSON: My uncles are happy as toads . MR.

USKIW: Two uncles out of the total population of the, Interlake. MR. JOHNSON: They 're very happy. They make more money than I do.

February 9, 1967 919 MR. USKIW: As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, it is the levels of the lake that have made some of these farmers uneconomic. It isn't the fact that they were uneconomic before, it is the water problems which have made many farmers uneconomic in the area simply be cause they were robbed of large portions of the property . So my honourable friend tells me that we have cyclical changes ; it's the weather that's against us now. It's been against us since 19 50 but we 'll get over the hump, the weather will change .

I don't accept this proposi tion because we have spent, as I said here last night, $3i million in moving the waters of the southwestern part of !l�anitoba at a faster rate into the area of Lake Winnipeg; We have added to the amount of water in that lake physically with bulldozers and what-have-you, drainage ditches of one sort or another, floodways of one sort or another. It isn't the problem of weather or cyclical changes my honourable friend is referring to, we have .created partially the situation which people have in the lake areas. We have done it ourselves.

We have pro vided people in some areas of the province with dry land and we have created a wet situation on the other side. This is what we have done and we must take responsibility for it� So I don't accept the idea: that because the weather patterns will change some day, and therefore we can simply wait it out. I suggest to my Honourable Minister, this isn't the case at all. These people are not going to wait it out and they're not happy, because if they were happy we wouldn't have had a delegation here Monday afternoon requesting that this government adopt a policy of land acquisition in the. area.

It isn't unrealistic to ask for such a wlicy, be cause as was mentioned yesterday, the government has gone into land acquisition in many areas of this province for various purposes. They have spent huge sums of money in the purchase of lands. Delta Marsh Development is one of them; Asessippi Park is. another one. There are several others - land acquisition for forestry; land acquisition for wildlife.

The number of instances in this ARDA report dealing with the expenditure of last year indicate .to me that we have spent huge sums of money to acquire land for various purposes, so it isn 't illogical for people in the lake area to appear before our govern ment and say, "We have a problem, it's partly natural and partly created by action of people in this province, of governments in this province and municipalities in this province, and therefore the public has a responsibility to do something for us. " MR. JOHNSON: Would the member permit a question?

What part of the total volume of water in Lake Winnipeg does he think -- how does he think this large volume is affected by the drains coming in. Is he implying that these drains are the thing that keep the water at these unnatural heights, the drainage into the lake? Has he consulted an engineer on those figures ? MR. USKIW: I'm only suggesting, Mr. Chairman, out of this report, if you .read it care fully it will tell you the various programs that were undertaken to drain huge areas of ·Manitoba into the Red River, the Assiniboine River, etc. , etc. , and that water ends up on the lake.

We have done things that have created a problem in the lake area and I'm saying that we have speeded up the delivery of water from one end of the province to the other, and I'm not satis fied that we have, at the same time, provided greater outlets for that water to get out of the lake. I have no knowledge of this. MR. JOHNSON: Mr. Chairman, if I may just say a word. The point.I was trying to make to my honourable friend was that the farmers are pleased that the diking is taking place in areas that are salvageable along that great lake - it's a long long shoreline.

But I tried to point out that in the history of Ma nitoba, in the past,. similar heights have been recorded years and years ago by pioneers whom I have spoken to in the area, including my own family, where waters did go much higher. We only started keeping records about 1912 that we can place any accuracy on. Those levels were achieved without any drainage works and the engineers point out that it isn't these drains that raise the level of the lake because the cubic volume of the lake would be unaffected by even large drains like the Meleb drain, Camp Morton drain and these other large Washow Bay drain and so on.

So these high waters, I'm sure, must .be cycli cal and it's the wind of course that does the damage, but in these low areas farmers of genera tions have moved out and others have come in over the years, into the areas that affect his constituency and mine, which proves to me that it isn't the new drainage work that is causing the high waters per se. MR. USKIW: Farmers in my particular area, Mr. Chairman, have lived there a lifetime. Some of them have been over there over 50 years. It is the second generation that is taking over that has the problem; it isn't the original settlers of the area.

They don •t recall at any time durin g the last 50 or 60 years where they had water problems of this nature, and I'm merely suggesting that I agree partly that nature has something to do with it, but I also agree

920 February 9, 19 67 (MR. USKIW cont•d.) .. ••• tha:t we had something to do with it because I don't accept the idea that a drainage ditch in every municipality doesn't add water to some other area of the prov- ince. MR. T. P. HILLH OUSE, Q. C. (Selkirk): Mr. Chairman, I think that what the Honourable Member for Brokenhead is overlooking is that fact that all that a drain does is that it acceler ates the speed bywhich the water goes into its drainage basin.

Now you take in the Interlake area between Lake Manitoba and Lake Winnipeg there's a distance of about 10 0 miles and I think the gradient there is a foot a mile. Now regardless of whether we put in drains or not we •re going to get that water from the Lake Manitoba area,, but by putting in more drains we •re accelerating the speed at which that water comes in. · Now I know that there •s certain areas in lV'anitoba that we have drained that we shouldn •t have drained. Take for instance the bog between St. Andrews and Rockwood.

God never in tended that to be cropped; that was a drainage basin that should have been left that way. There's all sorts of areas up there in the Interlake area that never should have been drained, but the fact still remains that that doesn't bring more water down, all that it does is accelerate the speed at which it comes. ·MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairma n, just a word. I find it impossible to resist the temptation to say one more word on the subject.

I certainly didn't intend to imply that the work that was being done by the people that my honourable friend the Member from Lakeside speaks about isn •t valuable work, that they aren't proud to be doing this work, that it isn •t just as important as the ·work that's being done by the people in this House or the people working in gainful oc cupations outside of this House; I merely say that they wouldn't be less proud, less contented, less satisfied, less pleased with what they're doing if they were compensated as lawyers are compensated for what they are doing. HON.

THELl\.-A FORBES (Minister of Urban Development andMunicipal Affairs) (C ypress): Mr. Chairman, I certainly didn •t intend to get into this debate but I think the hon ourable member has really hit upon something and this is what we should be arguing. They should be compensated; and isn't this the nub of the whole thing? We •re away from this cost price squeeze that we were talking about. But I do want to say this, that the farmer in 1\.-anitoba is a very capable individual. Just tell me who in the world could invest the amount of money that he does invest. Think of what he invests in his land.

We •re telling him to get into larger acreage. Any good quarter

section today is anywhere from $15, 000 to $20, 000 and maybe more, and we •re suggesting that he gets up into this three quarter

section ownership of land. He's going to have some $80, 000 tied up in that. He again is going to put buildings on it to house his family, granaries, everything to make living just as nice as what it is for the lawyers in Winnipeg and all the rest of us. Ori top of that, he's going to have combines and machinery, all related to this cost price. He•s going to have some $50, 000 tied up in this.

Who in the world -'- tell me who in the world with about $200, 000 worth of money tied up - I don't say he owns it all, the banks, the mortgage con1pany and the farmer, maybe this is it - but who in the world can run a business like that when he goes to deliver his crop in the fall of the year and all he can deliver is 30 units -- or 300 units I meant to say to the elevators. Just imagine that. He •s controlled to 300 units and this is the time when all his bills have started to come in. How can he manage? Just ask yourselves.

What are you doing in this House if it shouldn't be that you!re discussing the price of things that he gets, the rightful price for the product that he is growing, whether it•s. wheat or cattle or hogs or whatever it is, and for goodness sake let's get on with the business of the House and discuss these things and try and get a rightful price for. him. If he got the price that he should get for the produce that he is willing to put his efforts forth to try and produce for this world, then we wouldn't have this trouble.

It seems to me that most of us seem to think that everyone outside of the farmer, every body else is subsidizing hiTn. Well I'm telling you that every one of you in here and outside of here is being subsidized by the farmer of this country, Why don •t you take a look at the in between man here somewhere - and I'm not criticizing him either - but when you go to the store and you say the price of bacon is such, the farmer didn •t get that price.

Don •t ever think he did, And when I come back to when he delivers 300 units some time later on in the year, when it •s not always a good time for hiTn, he is told that the quota is open and he can deliver soTne more to the elevator, and when he delivers his product to the elevator. - let's take grain - what does he get? In the neighbourhood of $1 .3 0 a bushel. Now imagine, $1.30 a bushel and they say, well, we're going to give you $2. 00 wheat or whatever the price is there, but it•s $1.30 he gets. And then he has to go down to pay his - let's: say it's the man in the machine

February 9, 1967 921 (MRS. FORBE S cont1d. ) business that he has to pay - he goes down to him and he says, "Look, I owe you $2, 000 but I can 't give you $2, 000, I can only give you the amount that I get. " So let 's say that he offers to give him $1, 300 and he •ll say to him, "Now you have to wait for that other $700, you •ll have to wait for it. " But the dealer can't. He has to pay interest and he tells the farmer, "I •ll carry you but you pay interest on it. 11 Now he got $1. 30 for his wheat. Did anybody pay him interest on the balance ? It's supposed to go up to $2. 00. Not a person does.

Now this is the thing we have to think about. Who in the world could do it if it wasn't a good compe tent farmer, a businessma n, a man who has to sacrifice, and he does sacrifice. He' s capable, he 's able to manage his affairs, and he must have been or he couldn't have sur vived all these years. This is the truth and we should look at this man and stop thinking about him . It seems to me that there is too much hay attached to the word farm and I1d li ke to knock the "a 11 right out of farm and subst itute it with an 11i 11 and call them agricultural firm s and let's get away from this idea.

Probably we say we don't call them caretakers in the building any more, they're superintendents . Maybe this is the thing we should call the farms, agri cultural firms or some such name. And here again I mi ght say that it just occurred to me that if we do have a centennial project, let 's say to the farmers : 11Put up a sign out here - be im aginative - a good big sign and advertise your farm as whatever you are.

If you •re a grain farmer, have some name that is with it, but get the nam e "firm " in there som ewhere .so as to let the people know that you are in business, 11 because it seems to me that this world doesn •t know it and we in here are still talking about the s.,:,.,all little things that we can throw in their way, little gimm icks here and there, where if you gave the farmer the price he should have for the produce that he is producing he certainly wouldn 't be asking for any of the handouts, he would carry on for. him self. NTR.

PHILIP PET URSSON (Welli ngton): I didn't think that I would enter into this debate on farming but the Honourable Member for Cypress impre sses me as though she is speaking_ the kind of language that I understand, and to the surprise of some of the members, I can tell them that I have farmed - I have worked on a farm .

In 19 18 when there was a shortage of farm labour I went out to Saskatchewan from high school with a great number of other boys and disco vered long after that that the wheat that I was helping the farmer to plant in the spring and then to harvest later on in the fall -- wheat is one comm odity that has not changed very much in actual numbers of dollars from that time and up to now. It is one comm odity that has remai ned at practically the same price while everything else has doubled and tripled and quadrupled in, we say, in value.

In 1918 wheat sold, because it was an exceptional year, it was the closi ng year of the First World War, it went up to over $3. 00 a bushel. And what are farmers getting for their wheat now? -- (Interjection) -- something like that. It has had its ups and downs . It has seldom gone above, in numbers of dollar s, what it was in 1918. I know what it means to a farmer to be flooded out. I had an interest in a farm near Elie, between Elie and Oakville, not very many years ago. There were 1, 600 acres.

There 's a channel that is known as the Elm Creek channel runs through there and it 1s supposed to have floodgates on the culverts that are built into the - what would you call it? - the dredging out, the digging out of the channel, the soil was piled up on either si de to protect the lands from flooding. These gates one year were grown up with willo w and grass. They hadn' t been serv iced as they should have been. Heavy rains fell after the crop was in and I had the experience of seeing a whole

section of land flooded out, seeded to barley and wheat, the crop coming up which was a total loss, because while the barley was not harvested,- could not be harvested, it was drowned out - 60 acres of wheat could still have been harvested if it had been possible to bring the implem ents in on to the land, but the land was still soft and the combines bogged down when they tried to go in to harvest that grain. There was a whole quarter

section of wheat, a whole quarter

section of barley - I said a

section a mo ment ago - the other

section was in summer fallow . This is the sort of thing that farmers face and they are, as I have often said, the biggest gamblers in the world and they're the greatest optim ists. Things that can be done to sec ure the farmers in their efforts to produce crops are things that should be done and given attention to. I agree 100 percent with what the Member from Cypress says. The farmers go out in the spring, they put in their crops, they are hopeful that som ething will come. If it doesn 't, they

922 February 9, 1967 (MR� PETURSSON , cont 'd) .. , .. begin to plan for the year following and hope that something will develop, and these are some of the aspects that we should be dealing with, · Now the reason that farin products aren't counted in any more dollars in terms of num bers than they are is simply because of what the farmers themselves have been able to .do to reduce the cost of producing. At one time it was a horse and wagon operation. The farme rs have switched to machinery .

They've made production more economic , and while they're still selling the grain at the same num bers of dollars, or their product at the same num bers of dollars, it is because they have been able to ec onomize. in the work put in to producing it that they CaJl. still do if and still make a partial kind of living. As I said, I hadn't intended to enter into this debate but I was moved to do it by listening to what the Member from Cypress had to say . The farmers are - this is an old cliche - the backbone of this country.

When money gets into their hands, everything goes, everything move s, from ..•. to the financial interests in Ontario, in Toronto, the farm machine companies, the car companies, everything else that produce s things that farm ers use , and ifthey are not making a profit, if they are not doing well, then nothing eise goes well here in this land. It was just a few years ago' that we developed a sudden wave of prosperity and. that was because of the first s·ale of the wheat surplus to Ru ssia or China.

Money came back into the hands of the farmers and the whole economy got a lift from it, So I don't think we can dovm grade farmers or ignore them or forget about them . They are still the backbone of the country arid the kind of people that we have to give some attention to . · . MR, ENNS: Mr . Chairman, I feel I would like to , if I may, just bring to a close perhaps this part of the debate-� I wantto thank my honourable colleagues for assisting me this after noon. It was most welcome , particularly my honourable colleague from Cypre ss, her contri bution was most -appreciated.

I take some little exception to what she said and, I know she won't mind� ! think she introduced a novel idea with res pect to taking the "a' ' out of farm . 'H owever , I would have to say , as one who has just entered into that profession a relatively short time ago, some six years ago, that I don't mind at all the farm title and I kind of like H. MRS. FORBES: Neither do I, but if that's what they want let's change the name . At least let is recognize the farm where it should be . MR. ENNS: Thank you.

I' d like to deal briefly with the co=ents that the Honourable Member for Lakeside provided us with this afternoon, and I suppose I should acknowledge the apparently generous attitude that he has shown towards me . I think maybe it might be - and I wouldn't want to read this into it - but it may be that he knows the history of.the dding of the constituency that I represent perhaps as well as I or indeed better.

As will be known to him, sever al members of this constituency were enticed at one time or another to cross the floor and join the members opposite and I don't know whether he is trying to do the same to .m e. I don't think so. I serve warning at any rate that I will not be enticed across the floor to join him, but I thank him nevertheless for his solicitous and his kind comments towards me . He opened up and talked about the image of ARDA and I would like to just very briefly in a concise form , just reiterate the present situation and past.

The first initial agreem ent, 1962-- 65,_ provided for $1 .8 million in ARDA funds with certain and clearly defined areas of where this money was to be spent -10 percent on re search; not more than 50 percent on soil and water conser vation; and the remainder on other projects with respect to rural developme nt, recrea tional areas, wildlife services and so forth. The second agreement signed 1965-70, the program was expanded somewhat .

We have some additional money but still I would have to point out that the total ARDA funds represent no more than one-half of one percent of our total provincial budget, so from that very small statistic it is obvious that ARDA is not the Me ssiah that is going to transform the whole agricultural scene . The major res ponsibility of development in this province will continue to lie within our own re source s. The ARDA funds are received very gratefully and thankfully.

They allow us to put into our programs or to speed up programs that otherwise we would not be able to perform in our provincial order of priorities. Now it's rather important to keep that total aspect in mind . The ARDA funds represent no more than one-half of one percent of our total provincial budget, and the fact that the ARDA program is a very wide program and that indeed any of you mem bers or individuals or farm organizations that approach perhaps a federal member or contact direct federal authorities MR. CAMPB ELL: Would my honourable friend permit a question?

Is he. referring directly to the agricultural es timates or does he mean the ones in all the departments ?

February 9, 19 67 913 MR. ENNS: To the total provincial budget . Some of the areas -- I reiterate these statements to the extent that there is the suggestion from time to time that the Province of Manitoba or the Government of Manitoba is not fully utilizing the funds available to us under the ARDA program, and my explanation or understanding of why this suggestion is somewhat prevalent is that because ARDA is such a wide-embracing program.

If indeed any of you or private farm organizations approach, say, a federal member with respect to this project or is it eligible for support under the ARDA program, the answer is inevitably yes. But it 's the province's initiative and it has to come under the provincial programming that brings it about. And I have to say that in the first agreement, 19 62- 65, all the moneys available to us were spent, in fact we over-subscribed the program by some six percent and had to carry that into the next agreement. The present agreement is again fully subscribed.

With the hoped for succes sful conclusion of the Fred agreement, it is lloped that we will be able to spring loose some additional ARDA funds that for the pre sent are encumbered by the Fred agreement, or the proposed FRED agreement. Now with those very few comments, and I think we have dwelt at some length about this, I would like to close with a few layman 's remarks as a resi dent of the Interlake area, having lived in that area and still living in that area when the agreements came out, and I can only submit that it 's part of our political way of doing things .

When a Federal Government in ottawa votes and announces a broad program such as this, naturally there will be headlines. The politicians seem not to be able to do without them and I don't blame them. We have no control over this . Now this happened in 19 62- 63 when this program was first announced. Now by the time it got down to us here , we stood around with our faces turned upward waiting for the forecasted millions to shower down upon us .

And this is partially the fact that this was only the initial agreement, and I would think that if we examined the program recently concluded with New Brunswick that they too face a long, protracted serie s of negotiations and formulations of their plans, because we 're talking about a very big program; indeed, we Canadians have a tendency to be modest about it. If I was in a legis lature across the line , we would be talking in terms of great society legi slation, because this is precisely what it is .

We kind of put an innocent sounding name like "Fred dy" unto it, but nevertheless I am confident that when these negotia tions are concluded all the members in this House will be proud to participate in it. Certainly I as a member from the area know that we will be proud to have it's results . . . • • • . • continued on next page

924 February 9, 19 67 MR. SHOEMAKE R: Mr. Chairman, we have had a pretty full discussion on the benefits that ARDA has offered to the Inte rlake area, and some two or three years ago there was one of the propaganda sheets came out that suggested that the Premier was making application to Otta wa to have a second area named and a program carried out in it, and I haven't heard any more about it in the meantime.

However, back in those formative years of ARDA the Chair man of the Neepawa area Development Corporat ion wrote a letter to the department asking in effect, well what can it do for us in our area, and it was suggested by the department in those days that the towns and the communities that wanted to benefit from the programs outlined in ARDA would have to make a request and that in fact they would act as the "springboard", the springboard from which action csuld be taken -- that was a word that the department used at that time, And a copy of a letter that I have from the Provincial Co- ordinator of ARDA -- and I guess there still is such a person around that is given that title -- he wrote back and ne said �- I'm only going to quote one paragraph: "Ass istance under ARDA for such studies de pends on the designation of the Porta ge-Neepawa-C arberry area as a designated rural develop ment area.

If sufficient interest is shown by these towns and associated communities to have the area designated as a rural development area, the forms of assistance to the kinds of st udies noted above would be made available. " Well now, is it generally known by the rural areas that they are the springboard from which acti on must be taken? That is, who st arts the ball rolling? That's what I'd like to know. Did the people of the Inte rlake make the first move and the government make the next move like a game of checkers ?

Now, an area that wants to partic ipate in the programs, do they write a letter to the department and say, come on out and let's talk things over, or where do you start; that's my question? MR. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Mr. Chairman, I wasn't going to be drawn into the debate on the ARDA portion of the Minister's asses sment before the House, but however there are some things that have been drawn to my attention in the course of the debate , and I would like to rise at this time in support of my Minister and the government for the manner in which they are carrying out the ARDA portion of the agre ement.

I took particular great issue with the Member of Gladstone in the House the other night when he attempted a sort of a humorous reply to the work that's being done on blueberry management. I am one who is in the retail business of se lling blueberries and it is a very important part of my business at certain seasons · of the year - for many reasons. First of all, the blueberry is a fruit that is native to Manitoba, and I dare say with proper care and manage ment and development could bring us an industry that would bring considerable dollars to the pockets of the grower and also to the retailer.

The area that I speak of at this particular moment is the area north of Dauphin, Camperville area, where blueberries seem to grow without any problem whats oever, but we are experienced with the problems of finding a berry that will keep -- it's a perishable item , and when you compare a Manitoba blueberry with one which we import from time to time from British Co lumbia, and it's a product that will st and up good on the retaile r's shelf, we find that the Manitoba product is quite inferior -- and I endorse the program that's laid out in ARDA here most heartil y, because I feel the day isn't too far away when we will be able to meet the product that's being brought in from other prov inces on our market.

I'm also greatly in the item , Recreati on Demands in the ARDA booklet from which I read. I have been a firm believer in recreation. I'm also quite inte res ted in the recreation demands of our American neighbors from the south , being assoc iated with the Highway 83 Assoc iation, which is a group that are interes ted in tourism for the province from the Gulf of Mexico to the Port of Churchill, if and when that road is completed. I find that this is one aspect where we in my part of Manitoba seem to fall down, and that is in the recreational demand for roadside parks.

Attendi ng the Highway 83 convention in Swan River this past summer accompanied by my honourable friend from Russ ell, we found that this was one of the prime concerns of the American touris t who comes into our area, that we haven't got sufficient recreational facilities for him, and I only hope that the $20 , 000 item that's mentioned in here will find a good portion of it being spent in that part of my constituency. I'm also quite happy in reading this document to find a picture of the Asessippi Provincial Park as being proposed at this time. I dare say as I stand here this afternoon, Mr.

Chairman, that I come from a constituency which I consider to be one of the most beautifu l, if not the most beautiful in Manitoba. I hope that you all have the time to come there and visit with me some time during the lengthy years that I spend here and I think when I'm through taking you around

February 9, 1967 92 5 (MR. M-.::KENZIE cont'd) .... my constit uency I will have you believing that we have the most picturesq ue constituency in Manitoba. This park is going to be a great boon to our area, more so on account of the fact that it will be adjoining the Shellmouth Dam which is going to be one of the great projects that Manitobans will feel very proud of when it is completed. Just a few casual remarks, Mr. Chairman, that I would like to go on the record as I support the ARDA program and it's doing an excellent job in my constituency. MR. FRO ESE: Mr. Chairman, having not taken

part in the debate so far as far as the ARDA program is concerned, I would like to make a few points and put them on record. I certa inly appreciate what the government and the federal government under the ARDA program have done in our area down sout h in connection with the Hespeler Floodway. The program is now finished up to the point as far as Plum Coulee, but we need further work done at the Hespeler Creek.

Cer tainly the work that has been carried out is a very good thing for the people in that area and also for the whole floodway as such because we will now be able to drain and also make better tributaries to this flood way. The project that has been carried out to date has involed a cons iderable amount of expenditur es, and I think that the money has been well spent, and if this holds true for the other projects that are listed in this book, I am sure that we can be proud. Now, I'm not familiar with many of the programs that have been carried out under ARDA.

I know of some of the su rveys that have been made in the past, some of which have been re ported in the annual reports from time to time, and I cert ainly have a word of praise for the work that has been done on the Hespeler. And if the Honourable Minister could inform us as to what the program is from here on -- will further work be carried on on the Hespeler and to what extent -- I think the people back home would be very int erested.

Cer tainly we have con siderable flooding going on every year further up the Hespeler and this is causing a lot of damage to very choice farm lands, deep gullies are being torn out and the top soil is being washed away and the sooner we can stop _and bring a halt to this the better, because I think this is one thing that needs to be done and be done very urgently. HON. WALTER WEIR (Minister of Highways)( Minnedosa): Mr. Chairman, I think it would be more appropriate if detailed information on projects of water conserva tion type would be reserved and discussed on my estimates . MR.

CHAIRMAN: (d)--passed; (e) -- passed, Reso lution No. 8 passed. Resol ution No. 9. (2)-- passed: Reso lution 10. (3) (a) (1)--passed; (2) --passed; (3)--passed; (4)--passed; (5)- passed; (6)--passed; (a)--passed; (3)-- passed; Reso lution 10 passed. Oh, pardon me, I'm not far enough along Resolut ion 10. (b)(1) --passed; (2) --passed; (3)-- passed; (4)-'--passed, (5)- passed; (b)--passed; (c)(1)--passed; (2) --passed; (3)--passed; (4)--pas sed;(5) --passed; (6)- passed; (7 }-:-passed; (d) · MR. FRO ESE: Mr.

Chairman, I wanted to have a few words on this (c)( 6) , the grant tet the Winn ipeg Gardeners ' Co-op . . I spoke on the matter of the Veg etable Marketing Commission the other night and the Minister made a reply, although I'm not satisfied with the reply that I received in some respects . I find that so many of the growers are dissatisfied with the Com mission itsel f and the way it's run and the way it is curtailing their freedom to operate .

Just a few minutes ago I had people seeing me again and they claim that as far as production of carrots that this crop could be reduced by 75 percent and that we could have a shorta ge of this crop in Manitoba next year. I am not speaking lightly on this matter. This has been drawn to my attention by more than just a few growers, This is a serious matter, the way they operate and the way the charges are levied. For instance, one grower mentioned that he had to pay $33. 00 a ton for washing of his product.

Well there is very little left for some of the se growers after they have to pay th ese heavy and large costs. In addition to that, the dockage that is being made on some of the products that are being delivered are very, very heavy and growers have told me that the grounds where they delivered the dockage to last spr ing was just one big pile of vegetables and products , agricultural products . I think this definitely needs checking. Now we have a commission looking into . this at the present time but I feel that we should have a re port before the House prorogues on this matt er.

I think it's very, very urgent and as already mentioned in this brief to the -- monies that have been invested in this commission, I'd like to know whether th ey're in jeopardy or what is the situa tion. As far as the item here in the esti mates we're making provision for a grant to the Winnipeg Gardeners Co-op. What is the re lationship between the Winnipeg Gardeners Co-op and the Vegetable Marketing Commission? I would like to know how the setup works and what their relationship is.

926 February 9, 1967 (MR. FROESE cont'd) ..... The other day I got a copy of the financ ial statement of the. Potato Marketing Commission of a year ago but to date I have been unable to get a report of the Vegetable Marketing Com mision itself and we are unable as members of this House to analyse and find out whether, some of these reports that we get, whether they're fact or whether there's reason to be per turbed about this whole thing. I think we should have more information on this item. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, if the Minister would permit me before he answers, I would like to speak briefly on the same matter. I have been intrigued by the designation of this item; No.

(6) Grant - Manitoba Development Fund re Winnipeg Gardeners Co-op Limited. I would be interested in knowing what the connec tion is and just exactly what is being done here.

Then like my honourable friend from Rhine land, I too have read the brief that has been presented by one group of the Vegetable Growers and I am quite concerned over the very definite difference of opinion that seems to exist and to see that such a large body of reputable growers feel themselves to be placed in a very unfortunate position, one, in fact, that they seem to think actually endangers their livelihood and the reason that I was wishing to preced e the Minister was that, would he tell us when he speaks what view the government will take provided there's a report reasonably soon from the enquiry commission.

I recog nize that un til he has that report in his hands that he can't comment on it. Would he tell us first when he expects it and then regardless of what the report is and what it recommends would he give some cons ideration to a program that, it seems to me, could possi bly be an alternative that might be of some benefit in this situation and that would be something along the line of the Hog Marketing Commission where a levy could be placed on all growers, as is done in that Hog Marketing Commission, and yet the use of it be voluntary as it is in the Hog Marketing Com mission.

It seems to me from what I know of the situation -- and while I've not been cl ose to it in recent years, I've had a good bit to do with it back many years ago and have followed it somewhat in the interval -- it seems to me that the intensity of the difference of opinion now is so great that unless this commission comes up with a judgment that is worthy of the famous Solomon, that it will be difficult if not impossible to get a reasonable degree of harmony in the industry.

I suppose complete harmony is an ideal that is seldom achieved, but on the other hand I would think that the great difference of opinion that exists now could be some extent dissipated if some reasonable compromise measures were adopted and the one that appeals to me is that we might consider putting the Vegetable Marketing Program on a basis something corres ponding tocthe Hog Marketing Commission. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, in answer to the members' questions I obviously cannot comment at any extent with respect to the present enquiry and the questions that the Honourable Member from Rhine land raises are of course precisely the reasons why the investigation or the enquiry is now under. way. As to when the enquiry report will be in I made the mistake at the time of announcing the enquiry of saying that it would be in action within thirty days or, I believe, said a month � or two, and I found out that was wrong because I found out how difficult it was to get a com- petent person to do this job.

So I'm rat her hesitant to give a date, or in fact I don't know when it will be ready. I have indicated to him and I have contacted him through my department that if at all possible this report be available to us before the house prorogues. It is my under standing that all the public meetings are over; he is now doing very intensive work within the industry. That is: seeing people that perhaps wouldn't want to speak publicly, spending a good deal of time as to the actual practi ces, the back door practices so to say, at the Commission itself.

I have every reason to be lieve that it will be a very comprehensive and full report. Now I don't, and I have to admit, quite share the optimism that it will be an easy so lution or any easy pie answer to the problems that we obviously have. With respect to the question from the Honourable Member from Rhineland as to the monies involved or, I believe , also the Member from Lakeside in the way in which this appropriation is shown here� Grant - Manitoba Deve lopment Fund re Winnipeg Gardeners Co-op Limited.

It relates to the fact that the original storage bui lding was built partially by Federal and Manitoba funds, the normal funds that are available to a building of this type -- financial assist ance from the Canada and Manitoba Governments for the cons truction of a potato warehouse was made to the original Co-op that is the Gardener Co-op and that when the transition to the present commis sion took over the Co-op at that time received none of the benefits from these funds , they only got out their own portion of it and the remaining portion now is repayable at $14, 000 per year.

It's paid to the department who we, in turn, have to pay to the Manitoba

February 9, 1967 92 7 (MR. ENNS cont'd) •... Development Fund. This is perhaps the reason for it being listed in this manner, I think while I'm on my feet as a gesture of courtesy to my dear friend and coll eague the Honourable Member for Gladstone, who earlier had a question to me which I didn't have an opportunity of answering with respect to how the regional development area is ascertained. When the original ARDA agreement was signed -- and I hate to bring up the word again -- we had no designated area.

The federal authorities requested that we research this matter and it was therefore our extension people , our -- letters that you wrote -- any areas were open for consideration at that time and participation or suggestions were sought. The Gladstone Neepawa ru;-ea was one of two that was being considered, The following agreement, '66 agree ment, 'or '65 - '70 agreement, the Federal Government insisted on only one area as being the comprehensive program that we were going to work at and so the work or part of the work done in the Gladstone-Neepawa area was null and void at that time. MR, GUTTORMSON: Mr.

Chairman, I have some serious complaints to leve 1 against the department at this time in the Veterinary Services Branch. Before I make any remarks I want to tell the Minister I don't attribute any of these failures to him because I realize that he is new in the department and they are not the fault of him but they are the fault of the previous Minister. I don't know of any branch in the Department of Agriculture which has been more neglected than the Veterinary Services Branch. According to the annual report we have only four veterinarians, inc luding the provincial veterinarian, Dr.

John McGowan, and this is totally inadequate for the needs of the people of Manitoba. If my information is correct the staff, for example, in Alberta is at least five times as large as that l.Ii Manitoba.

The faci lities at the university are disgraceful to say the least, I travelled out there this summer and if there was three animals in the facilities provided for this branch the men working in there would have to crawl over the animals, This is how in adequate the facilities are, The dead animals are placed in garbage cans outside the premises and the flies that gather around, it's just unbelievable, and it is certainly not in the best in terest of good disease control..

Last year we had an outbreak of salmonella in Manitoba as a result of some contaminated feed and many of the people affected by this disease were in the Interlake. The Minister prob ably knows a great deal about it. I know when I heard about it I made some inquiries at the Department and the matter was sort of belittled and there was nothing much to it. What bothers me is, Mr.

Chairman, that at least a month after the source of the outbreak was discovered, farmers were still buying the contaminated feed and many of them lost animals as a result of it, And as the Minister probably knows there are court cases pending now and many of these people who have settled are not happy with the settlement that they feel they had to make.

Had the government jumped in immediately after the outbreak was discovered and the source of the contaminated feed was located, there are an untold number of farmers who would not have bought the feed, but they knew nothing about it and consequently this contaminated feed was being sold, as I said before, at least a month after the outbreak was discovered. With only four men in the department -- and I attribute no blame to them, they worked tire lessly to try to assist the situa tion -- they just couldn't cope with the situation and advise the farmers as the department should have had they been properly staffed.

So I attribute no blame to the men themselves but they don't have the facilities. One of the problems I know in our area, for example, is the lack of veterinarians . As the Minister knows my area is quite large. We don't have a single veterinarian in the area and anybody wishing to get a veterinarian must go to Stonewall, which for some farmers is well over 100 miles, 'and he knows the cost of bringing a veterinarian in to look at a sick animal that distance is considerable. What disturbs me is that the government by it's pat policy has made no effort to assist in the situation.

It's my understanding that there was an agreement offered to this government to share in the operating costs of a veterinary col lege at Saskatoon. The Province of Alberta shares in the cost, the Province of Saskatchewan shares in the cost, but Manitoba has refused. So consequently Manitoba students wishing to attend this univers ity are prevented -- I shouldn't say prevented -- but in an indirect way are being thwarted in their efforts, because if there is an overflow of students wishing to attend the college, students from Alberta and Saskatchewan get preference and Manitoba is left out.

If my information is correct, I believe, there is only one student from Manitoba attending this University this year. I beli eve there are eleven others attending Gue lph. But a lot of these students would like to go to Saskatoon if they coul d get in but with Manitoba refusing to share in the cost they are going to

978 February 9, 1967 (MR. GUTTORMSON cont'd) .•..• be left outside unless there isn't enough students from the other two provinces wishing to take this course. I think that this Minister should make every effort to rectify this situation which in my opinion is very bad. We need more veterinarians through the province. As I understand now there are only 40.

I know in my area we could do with at least two or three alone so I think the government should take every step to assist students who wish to take this course to take the course in Saskatoon and share in the cost of the operating costs so that our pupils can go there. Under the present setup very few if any, have the opportunity. You can imagine if Alberta requires 15 provincial veterinarians and we've only got four, how inadequate the farmers of Manitoba are being treated. We need more veterinarians .

We've only got four today and the men that are in the department toda y are just worked to death and statistics will substantiate it if you compare the situation in other provinces. Tbe facilities at the University, as I said before, are very small. It looks like a con verted beef farm to me if I'm not mistaken and the men just can't do the job that they would like to do and should be doing if they had proper facilities. Imagine not being able to handle more than three animals at one time in a building !

If my assessment of the situation is correct, flies hovering around the garbage cans outside the col lege where the dead carcasses are placed and the rendering truck doesn't arrive. It's an awful situation and I want to ask the Minister to change the situation immediately because we need veterinary services throughout the prov ince. I'm sure that I'm only one of many areas that require this service and I'm sure that the Minister is familiar with the situation I speak of and I hope that he'll rectify the situation that was left unattended by the previous Minister. MR •.

CHAIRMAN: .•••• points out to members of the committee that I have allowed members to wander considerably off the item at hand. In this particular case I have allowed the Member for St. George to go back to an item which has already been passed. I simply point out to the members to please pay attention to the estimates and to take the items as they come. Tbe Minister of Agriculture. MR. ALBERT VIELFAURE (La Verendrye): Mr. Chairman, I was away for a few minutes. We're on Extension Service 5-(c) 5 are we? When I came in the Honourable Member for Lakeside was speaking on .•••. MR . CHAIRMAN: On 6 (c). MR .

VIE LFAURE: (c) 6. Yes that's right. Well, I don't want to pursue the point of the Vegetable Marketing Co=ission, but I'd just like to plead with the Minister to try and come out with a policy or a change if any before seeding time because in my own constituency I have quite a few vegetable market gardeners and certainly they're very concerned about the policy that's going to be adopted by the department, the solution I hope to the problem, and I'm sure this will affect to quite an extent the seeding of different crops.

I don't want to take any more time but I want to plead with the Minister to try and come out with a policy or a change before the seeding starts. MR. FROESE: Just one further question in connection with this grant. Are we co=itted to any definite amount or will this grant carry on for a certain number of years that we're committed to ? MR. ENNS: When the particular sum is paid up -- I don't have it at my fingertips, I believe it's something like $59, 000 -- then it is finished, yes. I suppose I should answer the questions that were put out by the Honourable Member from Provencher, is it ? La Verendrye, I'm sorry.

He's asking me perhaps to do the im possible, that is to come out of this vegetable problem smelling like a rose and I don't think I will accomplish that. Tbe Member from St. <ieorge brought up a subject that of course is very close to me. Indeed I've seen these animals pass by my farm in the back of trucks on their way to being diagnosed at the University. He points out the disparity between the number of veterinarians. that they have in Alberta compared to what we have in Manitoba. Of course I think I'm perhaps on pretty weak ground to argue with him.

I could only point out though that our cattle popula tion and their cattle population are indeed, I don't have these at my fingertips, but I think there's some relationship here that he would be prepared to accept that to say that we should have the exact number that Alberta has really isn't the case and I don't think that's what he saying. He's merel y pointing out a deficiency that we have. I don't know the full answer. I've talked to the veterinarian people. I think some of the answer is in a statement that he himself made. It's a large district. How do you keep a qualified veterinarian who expects reasonable

February 9, 1967 929 (MR. ENNS cont'd) .••.• remuneration for his services, .in that area? Also, knowing the people in that area, they are pretty good veterinarians themselves, by and large, and it's usually in a case of last resort that they call upon their veterinarians. We deliver our calves ourselves. If there are .difficulties , the run and mill of the problems that you run into that you would nor mally perhaps look for a veterinary's services we look after ourselves.

The shortage of veterinaries seems to become a basic issue when we do in fact have a serious problem such as the one he mentions , the outbreak of salmonell osis in the Interlake. I can only agree that we don't have sufficient number of veterinarians to handle such an outbreak but we also don't have the legislation. The reference that he makes with respect to the contaminated feed that was being sold at the time, I must remind him that this is under the federal authorities and the Food and Drug Act of some kind and it's primarily their responsibil ity. I think a great deal of credit has to go to our Dr.

McGowan who on a voluntary basis, so to say, he had no legislative authority to back him in his efforts and indeed his pressure with this particular firm to clean up his premises , withdraw the feed from the market, even as the member points out, at a perhaps belated date. The question of the necess ity of a veterinary laboratory, I agree with him. It was on our election platform, if the members remember, and I would certainly want to pursue this most vigorously. Our facilities there are hopelessly inadequate in terms of the large number of animals that are being looked after.

I can only say that in terms of priorities, and we've heard lots of them here, in terms of priorities at the university, the academic levels and so forth, the demands for capital, the demands for other things, the question of building - I believe I had in my es.timates some $500 ,0 00 for construction, capital construction of a new veterinary lab. Now I don't mind at all going on record that I will be pursuing this policy most vigorously because I feel that we need it.

We're increasing our whole total livestock situation and we're getting into an area where we through confined feeding either in the hog industry or in the poultry industry, we bring our specialization down very cl ose where major disease outbreaks can become catastrophic. In the past it involved one or two animals on individual farms; now it can mean a wholesale, you know, cleaning out of an otherwise healthy farm enterprise. The question of the government not participating with the Saskatchewan authorities with respect to their veterinary college, there is a principle involved.

They don't participate with us when they send their students to us for dental education or medical education. It's rather a new principle involved. There's an area there of a tit for tat arrangement. We could well say that in the past -- it's f;lirly well known that although this is decreasing to some extent as their own facilities are being built up -- but certainly in the past many of the young persons that go into some of the professions, the medical profession, dentistry and so forth, very often achieved that profession here in the Province of Manitoba at no particular cost to the parent province.

We've never evoked that principle into our educational setup, and in a sense the same thing provides here. We of course continue to assist, as we have in the past, vis a vis scholarships, bursaries to anybody interested in veterinary service. I agree they're not up to the amounts that were requested by the Saskatchewan authorities. 'Thank you. MR. CH AIDMAN: (6) --passed; 7 --passed; (c)--passed; (d)(1) --passed. MR. CAMPBELL: We've passed that ARDA thing. Hadn't we better have a debate on it? MR. CHAillMAN: (1)-- passed .•.• MR. SHOEMAK ER: Mr. Chairman, I'm on (d). I'm quite prepared to start on (

d) and I would like to find out what is meant by Agricultural Development or what items we can discuss under this. I'm trying to follow the Annual Report and it's pretty difficult, but there's a couple of points that I would like to raise and I'm not certain whether they come under this item. But I have insisted for some time that

whereas there is a program of subsidy to farmers who want to dig dugouts for a supply of water on their farms and it has proven very very valuable over the years, and today you find most farms have one or more dugouts on them, particularly if they have any quantity of livestock. However, there are farms and farmers that would be served much better if they had a deep well perhaps. In some cases it's not necessary to have a deep well, they can get all the water they want with a shallow well if you can find it.

I have suggested on more than one occasion that the same kind of assistance that is offered to farmers for dugouts should be made available for wells, that is attempting to find water in shallow or deep wells. That's the number one point. I don't even know, Mr. Chairman, if I'm on the right subject or the right item here.

930 February 9, 1967 (MR. SHOEMAKER cont'd) •••••. Another point that I would like to raise at this time -- and once again I'm not certain whether I'm on the right item -- but I would like to discuss very briefly the auction marts, and ask my honourable friend how successful they have been in the few short years that we have had them in the industry. I am inclined to think that the one at Gladstone is doing very well by reason of the fact that it is a "community" type of effort and the community and the farmers got right behind it and it is a real success.

When I served as a member of the Hog Marketing Commission I was of the impression that after two or three years of trial and error at the livestock yards that the teletype facilities might be extended to certain rural areas, one of which might be Gladstone, and I'm wondering Whether now at this stage the Honourable the Minister feels that the time has now come when we may take a new look at this and extend the teletype services to the rural areas. When we visited Alberta, Mr.

Chairman, as you will remember, they had several areas in Alberta and it was as I recall it every day at the livestock yards in Ca lgary and Edmonton the number of animals that were at the various points throughout the province were listed on the bOard and they were auctioned off first in the mornings and they in fact established the price for the. day. That is, for instance it could be made known that there were assembled say 200 hogs at Glad stone; so there'd be 200 hogs at Gladstone and the buyers bid on them as if they were there in front of them.

And of course they bid on them on the basis that there were so many A's and ·� B's, -I mean they bid on them. They couldn't lose anything and it seemed to me that this probably deserves some further consideration. Another matter that disturbs me a little is the fact that, and I suppose this has been going on for many years, but if a farmer ships in a hog or two or a cow or two that is disabled -- no that isn't the word to use, what do they call them?

They're crippled, crippled animals -- it seems that they are immediately put into a separate pen as they are unloaded from the truck or the rail car and the separate pen while it's only five or six hundred feet away from the pre mises that a pickup charge is made of about $10. 00 apiece to pick them up there and take them to the killing plant.

I have before me a hog carcass grading certificate in which a farmer shipped in two crippled pigs and the gross, the gross amount that they owed him and agreed to pay apparently was $62.4 3 and then they deducted pickup charges $10. 00, killing charges $8. 00 and trucking charges $2. 13 and a levy on the two hogs of 30 cents each, for 60 cents, for a total of $20.7 3 which they deducted from $62. 43 to pay the farmer a net of $41. 70.

And it seems to me that if they only had to go a thousand feet to pick up a couple of crippled hogs that $10. 00 for trucking that distance and $8. 00 for killing, the same charge is not made for an animal that isn't crippled, and yet here's a farmer who knows full well that he's going to get a small price to start with and in this particular case nearly half of the price of the two animals was taken up in charges of o.ne kind or another. I wonder if my honourable friend would look into that j• matter and see whether or not that there is an injustice done here. ( MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, the question of expanding the assistance from not only to include wells as well as dugouts is something that I looked into and indeed wrote a letter some several weeks ago to the Honourable Minister of Agriculture, Mr. Greene. I see no reason why -- or I would like to see this expanded to that.

We have more and more pressure systems in use where the well is very often replacing dugouts and I really can't understand the difference although I understand that there is a policy with respect to topsoil water conservation in the dugouts, ponds and so forth, but I have indeed requested the federal authorities to examine their position on this. He makes some further remarks about the auction mart and I was happy he did so because I think this is a most successful venture on the part of many of them.

Some have had some difficulties but by and large I think they are providing a real service in the distribu tion and the selling of livestock in the rural areas of Manitoba. In fact, if I recall, it was my pleasure to make my honourable friend's acquaintance at just such ani occasion at the Gladstone Auction Mart, for the first time. His suggestion about increasing the use of teletype into different areas is an interesting one. No work has been done on that. It is something that perhaps should be looked at.

His final comment with respect to the difficulties a farmer had in the shipping of crippled animals - the first thing to come to mind is that obviously such an animal should .be shipped direct to a plant and not to a public auction mart, because as the member knows full well it's really a case too of causing a traffic jam. There's a tremendous flow of cattle through these yards. We're bringing through cattle at a tremendous speed and the difficulties of handling a crippled animal, whether it's 1, 000 feet or 2, 000 feet, the fact that it had to be loaded on a

February 9, 1967 931 (MR. ENNS cont'd) •••.• truck and off a truck, what with the price of labour these days I can well see how a ten dollar bill is eaten up in a hurry. My indication would be that this kind of an animal should go direct to a plant and not in to an auction mart. MR. SHOEM -\KE R: Mr. Chairman, it did. If I said it went to an auction mart, I was wrong. It didn't. I have just sent over to my

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	28-1-40
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	28th 1st hansardpdf 40.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	335d712689b6fdb016facf57908dd1c60b0d01b2

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