Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 54 (35th Legislature, 2nd Session)

35-2-54

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Second Session - Thirty-Fifth Leglslature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XL No. 54-1:30 p.m., THURSDAY, MAY 30, 1991 Printed by the Office of the 0.-ns Printer, Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature LIB - Liberal; ND - New Democrat; PC - Progressive Conser vative NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOM IAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAU DRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry MoCRAE, James, Hon. MclNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID , Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROGAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conr ad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington Crescentwood River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage la Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur -Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas lnkster The Pas St. Norbert Elm wood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lao du Bonnet Transoona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River PARTY.

LIB ND ND LIB LIB ND LIB ND PC PC PC PC ND ND PC PC PC LIB PC PC ND ND PC PC ND LIB PC ND PC ND LIB ND PC ND PC ND PC PC PC PC PC PC PC ND PC ND PC PC PC PC ND PC ND PC PC ND ND

2702 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, May 30, 1991 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of E. W. Wallace, M. Paterson, Molly Hollender and others requesting the Government of Manitoba to consider reinstating the indexing of the 55-Plus program. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Supplementary In formation for Legisla tive Review of the Department of Finance 19 91 -92.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Biil 11-The Resldentlal Tenancies Amendment Act Mr. Doug Martlndale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I rise to introduce and I move that Bill 11 , The Re sidential Tenancies Am endment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la location a usage d'habitation, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time, seconded by the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli). Motion presented. Mr. Martindale: The purpose of this amendment and this bill is to amend the new Residential Tenancies Act to prohibit excessive rent increases from being passed on to tenants. I have personally helped people to appeal increases of 20 percent, 30 percent and 35 percent. At the current time, these rent pass- throughs are legal. My amendment would change it.

They would still be legal, but it would limit the amount of rent increase that could be passed on in one year. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon from the Prairie View School, thirty Grades 6 to 9 students, and they are under the direction of Mr. Byron Loewen. This school is located in the constituency of th e honou rab le Minis ter of Finance (Mr. Manness). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Mr.

Speaker: I inadvertently did not see the honourable member for Burrows. Reverting back to Introduction of Bills. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for agreeing to revert back. Biii 37-The Plannlng Amendment Act Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows) : I move , seconded by the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett), that Bill 37, The Planning Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur l'amenagement du territoire, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. * (1 335) Mr. Martindale: The purpose of this amendment to The Planning Act would be to protect the economic benefits of the Winnipeg International Airpo rt. There is only one province in Canada now, and that is the province of Alber ta, that has legislation protecting the vicinity of airports from development encroaching on them. We would like to have this similar kind of legislation in Manitoba. It is needed. It is needed at this time.

It has been requested by the Chamber of Commerce, requested by Winnipeg International Airport. My amendment to The Planning Act would accomplish the purpose that they want of protecting the economic benefits of Winnipeg International Airport. Motion agreed to.

2703 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 19 91 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Goods and Services Tax Impact Cross-Border Shopping Mr. Jerry Storie (Flln Flon): Mr. Speaker, ear1ier today, the Minister of Finance and the federal revenue minister held a press conference to talk about a number of issues, including the impact of the GST on cross-border shopping.

Given the fact that Manitoba has experienced a drain of some $300 million in the last year in lost opportunity of Manitoba business as a result of cross-border shopping, given the fact that we learned only a few days ago that, from January to April, some 220 businesses, a new record for Manitoba, declared bankruptcy in the province of Manitoba, can the Minister of Finance tell us first whether he agrees with the revenue minister that the GST has had no impact on cross- border shopping?

Can the min ister tell this House wha t this government is prepared to do to make sure that more businesses do not go bankrupt and more jobs are not lost as a result of cross-border shopping? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I will quarrel with some of the member's

preamble at another time. I want to indicate to the members of the House thatthe Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson) and myself had a very productive meeting with Mr. Jelinek this morning as to whether the GST is the sole or the entire reason as to why cross-border shopping seems to be increasing at such a significant rate. Again, there will be another time to discuss that. Let me say, Mr.

Speaker, I was impressed in one sense that the federal government is trying to move in some areas, namely that they will be, I expect at least- they took kindly to the representation made by this government-looking at service lanes. I understand that there may be an announcement made later on this afternoon from the federal minister as to how certain lanes will be configured so as to allow Manitobans returning easier entry into the nation. Secondly, I understand that the federal government is going to be emp loy ing some additional staff which will, of course, again make the turnaround time shorter.

I am also told that the federal government is going to initiate an awareness program directed towards "buy Canada." That now is not meant to deny the opportunities to Canadians to shop where they wish, but it is going to point out the values still in buying in Canada and also some of the warranties that are foregone when one buys goods particularly in the United States. Mr. Speaker, this is a very complex problem. It has built up over a period of years.

I know gove rnm ents every where, federally and provincially, realize that some solution has to be found very quickly. * (1 340) Crown Corporations Purchasing Polley Mr. Jerry Storie (Flln Flon): Mr. Speaker, to many Manitobans, this is going to be viewed as a rather inept way of undoing the free trade deal. I want to also ask the minister about the new access lanes, easy access, and whether that is just going to make it easier for Manitoba Hydro or the Department of Natural Resources to get down to North Dakota to do business. I hope that is not the inten tion.

The fact of the matter is that the awareness program and the "buy Canadian" program clearly are not going to solve the problem . I want to know whether this min iste r, in conjunction with the minister responsible for Crown corporations, will be instructing Manitoba Crown corporations like MPIC, which is purchasing materials across the border, Manitoba Hydro, other government agencies and govern men t-funded agencies to get involved in a "buy Manitoba" program to protect the thousands of businesses that are in jeopardy today and the thousands of jobs that are in jeopardy as well? Hon.

Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, let us face it, I am glad the member finally realizes that we are on the verge if not in the midst of a tax revolt in this province. Most of that problem could be laid at the feet of the members opposite. I am choosing not to engage myself in that type of discussion right now.

For the member to say we should invoke a policy on the provincial Crowns, that they should do business in some certain fashion, would flee exactly opposite to our view that there should be open borders as between provinces and that there should not be preferential buying in a Manitoba context. This nation has enough tro ubles. Cer tainly , heaping upon that the fact that we should all build

May 30, 19 91 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANI TOBA 2704 bord ers within the nation as to trade, as to purchasing powers, particularly from a government or a Crown position, only makes that matter worse. What the member is asking, Mr. Speaker, I say to him he should dig deeply into his mind and fully un derstand the impacts of what he is asking, because I say to him that obviously he has not thought fully his position. Mr. Storie: It is more than a little ironic that this comes from the Minister of Finance who in effect supported the GST. Budget Deficit Forecast Mr. Jerry Storie (Flln Flon): Mr.

Speaker, today Stats Canada released its daily statistics bulletin which indicates that Manitoba is the only province in the countr y which ha s lo st emplo yees , employment in the last three consecutive years, not perhaps just coincidentally since this government took office. This government has had to add $30 million to its welfare budget. Bankru ptcies are skyrocketing. Can the Minister of Finance perhaps now indicate to this House whether he will be adjusting the deficit position of the Province of Manitoba in his next statement? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, the budgetary num bers forecast within my last budget stand today. We took into account exactly where we were in recessionary times. We have taken into account the reality of agriculture, because indeed it has a tremendous impact as to the revenues flowing into this province. I say to the member opposite, the forecasts that we have applied to all the sectors within the economy stand as they are today. The early indications as to revenues coming in within the various tax fields are on a par with the forecasts that we made during the release of the budget. * (1 345) Northern Flood Agreement Trust Fund Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): Residents of the community of Nelson House and many Manitobans were, I am sure, quite shocked to see the revelations that as much as $1 million in Northern Flood Agreement pa ym ents to Nelson House has apparently been diverted to two individuals, including a former chief, money that was supposed to go to residents of those communities for the effects of flooding, money that did not reach them.

My question to the minister responsible for the Northern Flood Agreement is how that money ended up not being held in trust as was the original agreement and how this $1 million has apparently been siphoned off away from residents of that community of Nelson House? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs): Mr. Speaker, the member should be well aware of the fact that the monies that were expen ded on be half of the Northern Flood Agreement were expended by Manitoba Hydro. The understanding, as I have it, is that the monies were to go in trust and that was, I understand, supposed to be done by agreement.

Further to that, the minister of Hydro may have some fur ther information that may be helpful. Northern Flood Agreement Trust Fund Audit Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): Indeed then, I will refer my second question to the minister and ask not only why the funds were not held in trust but also whether the minister would be willing to provide assistance, pro\lide funds, so that the band can continue the audit, an audit that currently has only taken place in terms of the 19 89 year, and look at concerns of the band council and residents of Nelson House where perhaps even more money may have been siphoned away from members of that community? Will the minister provide those assurances to the Nelson House Band? Hon.

Harold Neufeld (Minister responsible for The Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr. Speaker, we must first of all recognize that the agreement entered into by Manitoba Hydro with the Nelson House Band called for a settlement of some $7.6 million. The payments were made conditional upon $4.2 million paid to the lawyer for the band, in trust, with conditions of trust attached. The trustees of the trust were the Nelson House Band Council. Three million dollars was paid to the Government of Canada in trust as Indian monies to be returned to the band as the Government of Canada saw fit.

Four hundred thousand dollars that is remaining of the $7.6 million was deducted from monies that had been advanced previously.

2705 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1991 I have to again say that the monies were paid under the terms of an agreement that was agreed to by the arbitrator, and Manitoba Hydro paid those monies in exactly the terms and conditions that was agreed upon by the band and by Manitoba Hydro. Consultant/Lawyer Fees Mr. Ste ve Ashton (Th ompson): A further question, Mr. Speaker, to the minister. We have also seen a significant amount of money from the Northern Flood Agreement in terms of payments go to consultants, lawyers, et cetera.

In fact, in this particular case, there have been concerns expressed about the amount that has gone to various consultants and lawyers, including a political associate of the former chief, Jean Chretien. I would like to ask the Minister of Energy and Mines how much money, in terms of Northern Flood Agreement settlements, has also been diverted to lawyers and consultants? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister responslble for The Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr. Speaker, any monies paid to lawyers and consultants by the bands would not be privy to the government of Manitoba. The bands will pay that money.

I am as disgusted as he may be with the num bers of dollars that are paid to consultants and lawyers that should be going to the residents of the bands. We are not privy to that information, Mr. Speaker, and if he is asking how much the government of Ma nit oba and Ma nit oba Hydr o has paid to consultants, I can get that information for him, but I cannot get information with respect to the monies that are paid by the bands to their consultants and to their lawyers. Labour Adjustment Strategy Government Initiatives Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, we have had the announcement of 18 ,000 full-time jobs lost in the province of Manitoba over the past year. It shows that we do not have an economic strategy in the province of Manitoba. We have nothing to deal with labour adjustment in any substantive way in the province of Manitoba. My question is to the Premier. Can the Premier tell this House why, over the last two budgets, his government has chosen to actually reduce the amount of monies available for worker retraining in the province of Manitoba? * (1 350) Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, the member for River Heights, of course, has raised the issue which is that we are in the midst of a national recession, a national recession that is affecting provinces right across the country, so much so that, during that period of time that she talks about 1 8,000 job losses in Manitoba, the number is in excess of 220,000 in the province of Ontario, led by formerly Liberal and now New Democratic administrations who presumably have no industrial strategy for that province. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, it has little to do with an industrial strategy.

It has much to do with the fact that most of the pressures are national /internati onal on the economy.

We, in Manitoba, in particular, if she reads any analysis, are also being hard hit by the low prices to our agriculture producers, primarily as a result of an international grain trade war with subsidies in huge measure being put on exports by the EC and United States, all of these factors, including the terribly damaging high interest rate policy that was followed for far too long by the federal administration and the fact that our dollar continues to be high in relation to the U.S. dollar proportionate to its value. All of these things, Mr. Speaker, have been problems.

Despite that, of course, in the first two years of the Free Trade Agreement with the United States, our exports to the United States have increased by some 12 percent. We have fared relatively well in that. We, too, are seeing some changes with respect to some areas of the economy that continue to show promise for future growth, health care industries, that we are concentrating on, aerospace, food processing, computers and other areas. Under those circumstances, we are targeting areas that we believe will show future growth.

We are also indicating that we are prepared to support, where it is necessary, needs of people. We signed, this administration signed, the program for older worker adjustment and a few other areas that have been there for the support of workers who need it. Labour Adjustment Strategy Government Initiatives Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): The Premier refuses to address the

May 30, 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2706 most critical issue, which is the need for labour adjustment strategies, the need to retrain workers who find themselves, because of the recession, because of the free trade agreement, out of work. Can the First Minister tell the House why his government does not believe that an investment in people meets the needs of those people by making them skilled in new opportunities? Hon.

Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Indeed, if the Leader of the third party has been watching what has been happening with regard to training, she will know very well that in the embarking on the program for Workforce 2000 is indeed bringing in to provide training for people who may be laid off or whose skills may be required to be upgraded brings in the business sector, the manufacturing sector, to invest in training. Last night I attended the annual banquet of the Association of Cana dian Comm unity College instructors. The guest speaker at that dinner was the Honourable Mr.

Valcourt, who indicated that in Canada our business community is not contributing as much to training as it should be, and indeed we need to embark on programs on partnerships to encourage more participation by our business sector and our manufacturing sector. Workforce 2000 is but one program that brings into partnership the business community so that the government does not produce the training by itself, but indeed we bring together the partners in business and labour, partners from manufacturing to ensure that we provide a skilled work force for this province. Mrs.

Carstalrs: It is not going to come to much of a surprise to the public to know that the ministers have a lot of gall, but there is no more greater gall than the Minister of Education and Training going to a dinner for the community college instructors when he has just decimated the comm unity college system in the province of Manitoba.

Can the Minister of Education tell this House today how many fewer students, how many fewer people who have lost their jobs will be educated in the province of Manitoba as a result of the fact this government has no labour adjustment strategy and they have cut our community college system? * (1 355) Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, I find the member's comments very curious, because yesterday she stood in this House and condemned the move to college governance in this province.

Last night when I anno unced to the Association of Canadian Community Colleges that this province was moving to college governance, indeed there was an ovation for the fact that this province was moving into the '90s. There was an applause for that particular initiative, because we are joining the many other provinces who have already made that move in that direction. Mr. Speaker, with regard to training in this province, I would indicate to the member that we have refocused and reshaped some of the direction that our colleges are going, something that has been overdue for some time.

I must also indicate that we will be implementing four new programs at the Red River Community College, which will be targeted towards areas where there are specific skill shortages, such as the aerospace industry. We will do more as we move through the '90s. Pines Project Funding Cancellatlon Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) of this province has tried to create a false impression, since a month ago, that everyone in the community of St. James is behind Rotary Pines.

Further evidence that impression is false was provided at a meeting last night, which I atte nded and addressed, of 75 people who unanimou sly are opposed to Rotary Pines and voted to hir e legal coun sel. Concern was expres sed about the location and the 17 ,000 flights a year over the Rotary Pines site, as well as protecting the economic benefits of Winnipeg International Airport. Will the Minister of Housing either stop funding for Rotary Pines or explore other locations in St. James, as was suggested last night at the meeting? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): Mr.

Speaker, we will be, later today I believe or perhaps on Monday , going into the Estimates of the Department of Housing. I would be pleased to discuss these issues with the honourable member in great deal at that time. Mr. Martindale: The people from St. James are watching and they want an answer today, not on Monday.

2707 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1991 Winnipeg Waterways Riverbank Protection Mr. Doug Martlndale (Burrows): Will the Minister of Housing stop Rotary Pines and commit his government to protecting Winnipeg riverbanks since, as retired judge Ian Dubienski said, we are the only city in western Canada which does not protect our riverbanks? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, the government of Manitoba advanced to the City of Winnipeg, about a year and a half ago, a proposal for a riverfront corporation.

At that time, we put forward capital dollars to assist in developing riverbank strategies for the city of Winnipeg and the surrounding environments. The City of Winnipeg chose not to participate in that particular situation, so in terms of riverbank protection, the government of Manitoba is certainly interested and, while being rebuffed in the first instance, is now seeking different alternatives that may find some interest with the City of Winnipeg. Winnipeg International Airport Protection Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): When the general manager of Winnipeg International Airport meets with the Premier or the Minister of Highways and Tran spor tation (Mr. Drie dger ) , what commitments will the Premier make to protecting the economic benefits of the airport and therefore not allow Rotary Pines to proceed? * (1 400) Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I remind the member, lest he forget, that proposal of which he speaks was approved after extensive public hearings carried out by the City of Winnipeg. They properly zoned the land for the proposal.

It was backed by the Rotary Club that has more members than the attendance he spoke of at the event last evening. It was backed by the St. James Chamber of Commerce and obviously by the 10 4 people who put deposits down on their units. The fact is, this administration has also contacted the City of Winnipeg to urge it to bring about planning by-laws and planning amendments for the future to protect the airport of the city of Winnipeg.

This admin istration has worked with the ge neral manager of the Winnipeg Airport and various people within the business community to ensure that we attracted industry that would use the airport, that would use it as a focal point for future development. We are confident that there are some proposals and some projects, and some of it was referred to in an

article in today's paper that may indeed welcome here because of the work that this administration has done on behalf of the airport. Ducks Unllmlted Headquarters Proposal Review Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radlsson): Mr. Speaker, through the freedom of information procedure, we have obtained a copy of the Ducks Unlimited proposal for Oak Hammock Marsh. After reviewing the proposal, I can understand why the government did not want opponents to the project to have access to it.

The corporate office on the wildlife management area side, this plan makes it very apparent that this project has nothing to do with environmen tal education . It has noth ing to do with natural interpretive centres. This project is a tourist trap, Mr. Speaker. It is Disneyland. It will dramatically change the marsh while it gives management of the marsh over to Ducks Unlimited. The plan also contradicts-- Mr. Speaker: Order, plea se. I would ask the honourable memb er for Radisson to put her question now, please. Ms. Cerllll: The problem is that the plan contradicts a plan by the current management of the marsh.

My ques tion is for the Minister of Natural Resources. Was this proposal reviewed by the authorities outlined in Kent Whaley's plan, which was to outline management of the marsh up to 19 94? Hon . Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, we are currently in second reading of Bill 38. It is my hope that bill will move onto committee stage, which is rather unique to our practice and tradition in Manitoba, where we invite members of the public, opponents, and people who feel otherwise, to make recommendations, to make suggestions and make presentations to us.

I would urge the honourable member to allow Bill 38 to proceed to committee, at which time that exercise will take place, that very traditional exercise, democracy, that we enjoy in Manitoba, and those answers that she puts forward will have ample opportunity to be answered.

May 30, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2708 Ms. Cerllll: That bill is another example of the extent that this government is going to push this project through. Ducks Unllmlted Headquarters Sustainable Development Polley Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radlsson): I would like to ask the Minister of Environment if he thinks that the proposal for this project is in keeping with the principles of sustainable development, since- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member's question seeks an opinion and is therefore out of order. I would ask the honourable member for Radisson to rephrase her question, please. Ms.

Cerllll: Is it in line with this government's policy to have this project go ahead when it is obvious that it is not in keeping with principles of sustainable development? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, as we have indicated several times in this Legislature, we went through rather extensive public forum in front of the Clean Environment Commission. In reviewing the proposal, all of the environmental concerns could be answered or mitigated, and therefore, we are satisfied that environmental concerns are answered. Ducks Unllmlted Headquarters Funding Reallocation Ms.

Marianne Cerllll (Radlsson): Opposition to this project is continuing to grow, since today there was a demonstration at the Ducks Unlimited building, and I am willing to pass a petition to the Minister of Natural Resources, which has some more 300 names on it in opposition to the project. Will this government now reverse this decision and reallocate the millions of dollars that it is putting into this project? Hon . Harr y Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, firstly, I am sure the honourable member would not want to put false and misleading info rmation on the record.

This government is not putting millions of dollars into the project. This project is putting a one-time $250,000 grant towards this project. The proponents of the project are furthermore agreeing to take and assume full responsibility for the upwards of $200,000 that my department annually spends in the interpretive services at Oak Hammock and has spent over the last number of years. In effect, there is a net savings to the public, with an enhanced interpretive program being offered to the many thousands of Manitobans, many of them school children, who enjoy coming out for an outdoor and environmental experience.

Mr. Speaker, I think there is no question that this government views this development with enthusiasm, and we have every intention of carrying it out. Core Area Initiative Government Polley Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Urban Affairs. Last night, the City of Winnipeg Council overwhelmingly endorsed a resolution calling for the renewal of the Core Area Agreement, thereby giving the commitment of at least one government of the tripartite arrangement to commit itself to the renewal of the inner city of Winnipeg.

Can the Minister of Urban Affairs tell us what the policy of his government is? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated to the honourable member on a number of occasions previously, we are, in fact, in discussions with our federal counterpart to determine how and under what circumstances and at what funding levels we can enter into another agreement to address the concerns of the inner city of Winnipeg. Whether that will be a Core Area Agreement as we have experienced for the past 10 years or not, Mr.

Speaker, is in question, because the federal government does not wish to pursue that particular form of agreement. They have indicated that they are prepared to prioritize funding from within their existing resources to target into inner-city problems. We are pursuing that avenue at the present time, and when we have come to some conclusions in that regard, I would be happy to inform my honourable friend. Office Wind-Up Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): Mr.

Speaker, since the Gover nment of Cana da and the government of Manitoba are not prepared to give commitment to a renewal of the Core, would the minister tell us what the process is for winding down

2709 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1991 the Core operation? Have the employees been given notice of termination of their contracts? When will the lights go out in the Core office in downtown Winnipeg? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, as I explained to my honourable friend the other day in Urban Affairs Estimates to the exact same question he is asking today, the fact of the matter is that the Core office is in a wind-down phase, that the general manager of the Core Agreement has set out his

schedule of winding down of the office operations. While the office operations are in a wind-down phase, the delivery of programs is accomplished 75 percent or 80 percent by the three levels of government, not by the Core office. The functioning of programs, the continuation of existing programs and indeed, Mr. Speaker, ultimately the allocation of some of the remaining monies will, in fact, be continued to be delivered by those people who have been delivering them for the last 10 years. Renewal Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): Mr.

Speaker, we have had 10 years of co-operation between all three levels of government to revitalize the city of Winnipeg. Now, the Minister of Urban Affairs of the government of Manitoba told us that employees are on notice, the Core office will be shut down by May of 19 92 without so much of a hint of a commitment from this government. Will he save a model of intergovernmental co-operation in North America and save the Core Area Agreement? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): To have a third Core Area Agreement, Mr. Speaker, requires three partners.

We are in the process of negotiation with the third partner, if you will, in order to deter mine exactly how, given the scarce resources of all levels of government in Manitoba, we can best meet the current urgent needs and those needs priorities of the inner city. We are in those discussions at the moment, and let not the member suggest anything other than the fact that we are looking and pursuing with great vigour the ultimate conclusion that will see those needs met. Education System Market-Driven Programs Mr. Dave Chomlak (Klldonan): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education and Training.

I am glad the minister got applause yesterday because he will not get applause from the 52,000 unemployed people in Manitoba. He will not get applause from the thousands of high school students who have had their high school bursaries cut off, and he will not get applause from the hundreds of students who have been affected by the cutbacks in the community colleges.

My question to the minister is: Why is this government blindly following the lead of the federal government in its privatized, market-driven training programs and not catering to the needs of the presently unemployed, the aboriginal people, the inner-city people and all others affected by this devastating unempl oyment rate? • (1 410 ) Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): I would congratulate the member for Kildonan for wrestling back his portfolio of critic for Education from the member for Flin Aon (Mr. Stori e).

Unfortu nate ly, the memb er has not improved his awareness of what is really happening in the province and, indeed, in Canada as a whole. Mr. Speaker, we are indeed delivering training and educational programs that are designed to meet the market needs of tomorrow and for students who are going to be graduating into a global society which is going to be a very competitive one.

For that reason, we have embarked on some very new in itiatives with reg ard to trai nin g and post -secondary education in this pr ovince, programs such as the new programs which were announced for the Portage area with regard to the aerospace industry and five new programs at Red River Community College which will be developed; in addition, six new programs at the Thompson campus which will be delivered next year-all of those programs designed to ensure that the youth of this province, the people of this province are going to be able to get an education which will lead them toward skilled jobs for long-term- Mr.

Speaker: Order, please.

May 30, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2710 Mr. Choml ak: They ha ve also tra nsferred hundreds of programs from Thompson to Winnipeg and other places. Labour Adjustment Strategy Government Initiatives Mr. Dave Chomlak (Klldonan): Can the minister specifically outline for us today what his department is going to do to the 1 8,000 new employed year over year in this province as a result of actions of this government? What specifically are they going to do for these people who are unemployed, the 18 ,000 new unemployed? Hon.

Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): The member has some confusion as to whether they are employed or unemployed, Mr. Speaker. Let me assure the member that, when the analysis has been done, we have known in this province that we have a shortage of some 3,000 workers in the aerospace industry over the next ten years. For that reason, we are addressing that need by ensuring that we have training programs for individuals in that area.

We are addressing the needs of Manitobans as best we can, but let me assure the member that, if we did not have to pay the $550 million of interest costs incurred by the former administration, we could do a great deal more for Manitobans in terms of training and retraining programs. Mr. Chomlak: My final supplementary to the same minister. I am wondering if the minister has a response to the over 200 students on the waiting list at Red River Com munity College ESL program , who have nothing to go to and who will not be able to find jobs because they cannot learn the English language.

How about the 60 students who are lining up waiting for careers at the Selkirk psychiatric nursing hospital? What will the minister tell these people today, specifically? What can they do to get jobs in this province? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, I will tell the students that, indeed, the waiting lists are not new and that we are moving toward ensuring that the programs that are developed will lead to long-term jobs and stable jobs, not like the programs that were developed by the New Democrats, where they spent $41 million and got 34 journeymen out of the program.

Those are not the training programs that we will embark on. Department of Housing Dauphin Branch Closure Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, have a question to the Minister of Housing. The minister, some three months ago, announced the disma ntling of the housing auth orities throughout the province of Manitoba and threw many people out of work, who worked for the housing authorities in many communities, contrary to the spirit of decentralization that his government talked about so enthusiastically before the last election.

I ask the Minister of Housing if it is his intention that Dauphin will also lose, not only its housing authority, but also the Department of Housing branch in the community of Dauphin as a result of these changes? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, nobody has lost their job as a result of the changes that were made on February 27 with the disbandment of the 98 existing housing authorities. Those employees are all still in place. The plan for the Manitoba Housing Authority is in progress and was not anticipated and still is not anticipated to be in place until this fall some time.

In terms of that program, it is still on track. It is anticipated that there will be regional offices throughout rural Manitoba to deal with those issues and that those offices will be appropriately staffed utilizing, where possible, experienced person nel. We are still in the formative stages of the Manitoba Housing Authority, and it is proceeding on track. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, the minister did not answer the question. I want to ask it another way.

How can he justify closing the Dauphin housing office, in addition to the fact that 11 employees have lost their jobs at the correctional institute in Dauphin as a result of this budget, in addition to closures and cuts in the Natural Resources department, in the Highways department and the cancellation of the Vital Statistics office under decentralization that this government has talked about? How can he justify closing the Dauphin office in the Department of Housing, as well? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, as my colleague the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness) has indicated a number of times, the legacy of debt left by the NOP in this province has left the government of the day in a current financial difficulty. We had to do some

2711 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1991 downsizing within the Department of Housing, as did other departments in this government. The Manitoba Housing Authority, the ultimate manager of the public housing stock will, in fact, be located in an office within the Parkland region to deal with the people in that area. It will be staffed by people from the Parkland region, I suspect, in the most part and will be able to deal effectively with the housing stock in that particular area. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, the legacy of debt is no different than it was before the election nor after the election.

The minister cannot use that excuse. Regional Housing Authorities Dauphin Office Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): I as k, Mr. -(in terjection)- That is right. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Dauphin, kindly put your question now, please. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that CKDM has repor ted this mo rning that the community of Roblin is applying for this regional office of the Housing Authority, I ask this Minister of Housing whether he will ensure that, in light of the cuts that have been made to the community of Dauphin by this budget and this government, at lea st a regional office of the new housing corporation will be located in Dauphin as the major community in the Parkland region? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): Mr.

Speaker, firstly, let me say I am pleased that the honourable member for Dauphin has for the first time acknowledged the debt legacy of the NDP- for the first time in this House. I might also tell the honourable member for Dauphin that the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), his colleague, also has written to me asking that the regional housing office be located in Swan River. Mr. Speaker: Or der , pl ease. Time for Oral Questions has expired. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to recognizing the honourable government House leader, I would like to draw the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have with us this afternoon from the J. R. Walkof Elementary School, fifty Grade 5 students. They are under the direction of Mr. Garry Bueckert. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon. House Business · Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, before I move the motion to go into Committee of Supply, I would just like to indicate that we expect to be completing the Estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs and that the committee outside of the Chamber will be considering the Department of Seniors. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Nonpolltlcal Statements Mr.

Speaker: Prior to putting the question of the honourable Minister, I recognize the honourable member for Point Douglas. Mr. George Hlckes (Point Douglas): May I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Point Douglas have leave to make a nonpol itical statement? Leave? That is agreed. Point of Order Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster): Today I intend to grieve, and the motion has been moved. I want to make sure that it is clear that I will have my grievance after the member for Point Douglas has been given- * (1 420) Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

I have not put the question to the House yet as proposed by the honourable governmen t House leader. We have granted leave to the honourable member for Point Douglas to make a nonpolitical statement, after which time I will recognize the honourable member for lnkster.

May 30, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2712 *** Mr. Hlckes: Today marks the 25th anniversary of the Winnipeg Adult Education Centre. The centre opened its doors in 19 66 in what is now Point Douglas School. Over the years, the school has graduated thousands of adult students and given them the academic tools to improve their lives. The school is located in an area of great need, Mr. Speaker. There are abor iginal peop le, new immigrants, single-pa rent families and others who do not always have access to educ ationa l opportunities.

Whether adults have attended the school to learn English or to receive a high school education, ther e are ma ny su ccess stori es. Graduates have acquired the skills necessary to get themselves out of the cycle of poverty which plague so many in the area. For others, they have the opportunity for post-secondary education, an opportunity that would not be available without the centre. Just last year, 91 graduates of the centre went on to un iversity and 83 were enrolled at Red River Co mmu nity College. I would also take this opportunity to commend the dedication of the teaching staff over the years.

The Winnip eg Adult Education Centre has per formed a vital service to the residents of Winnipeg's inner city. I congratulate it on its 25th anniversary, and I wish it many more years as a school of second choice. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable govern men t House lea der (M r. Ma nness ), seconded by the honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. Mccra e), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair, and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MATTERS OF GRIEVANCE Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity as accorded to us under the rules to grieve. I would like to express some concerns that I have, that I feel that the government has not been addressing. Those concerns can really be put into two parts, and I want to express them in those two parts. The primary concern that I have is an issue that has been before us now for the past week and that is, of course, the immigration consultants. We, in the opposition and particularly the Liberal Party, have been calling for an independent investigation into the whole matter. We feel that, in fact, is what is needed.

There is exploitation that is occurring, not only in the province of Manitoba but all across Canada. The provincial government has a role to play in ensuring that exploitation is minimized. I would like to say right from the beginning that this is not a new problem. This is a problem that has been going on for a number of years. It is not a problem that sticks with a political party. This problem has been her e through NOP admini stra tions, Libe ral admi ni strati ons, Conservative administrations, but what is different is what the political parties in office at the time are doing.

Their actions, I will argue, speak louder than words. I would like to refer to a study that was done by the then Minister of Employment and Immigration, the Honourable Lloyd Axworthy, back in April of 19 81 , just to highlight the fact that this is not a new concern . I want just to read the very first paragraph where it cites specific cases that we have brought to light. Newer cases, or through the 1-T earn report, have been brought to light, once again bringing to the surface how serious this problem really is. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to quote from it where it gives a bit of a background: On a number of occasions over the past year, newspaper repor ts have refe rr ed to inciden ts of un scru pulo us immigration consultants taking advantage of gullible imm igr ants.

The fol lowing in cidents wer e described: the payment of a $1 4,000 fee by two sisters after a promise to bring their third sister to Canada; the pa ymen t of a $1 ,000 fee for representation of a useless nature before the Immigration Appeal Board; the payment of large sums of money to consultants on the understanding that they would be used to bribe immigration officers and police; the payment of a $1 ,000 fee for scandalous advice in relation to the applications of refugee status. (Mrs.

Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) Madam Deputy Speaker, these are some of the concerns that were brought up back in 19 81 . If you follow what has been happening with immigration consultants from that point to today and ultimately tomorrow-because neither this government nor the federal counterpart are willing to address the issue-imm igration consultants are allowed to do as

2713 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1991 they please. I believe that this is to the detriment of Canada's image. Many immigrants want to immigrate to Canada and will do whatever is necessary in order to try and gain en try to our country. That leaves them somewhat susceptible to people who would take advantage of these would-be immigrants or, in fact, immigrants who are here now. Madam Deputy Speaker, I had an opportunity to take a trip earlier this year which I had paid for myself-which should be noted-and I had talked to a family which was involved with an immigration consultant.

The things that came out of that discussion or that family meeting, if you will, disturbed me. I was shown and given a copy of a list in which people charge so much money for certain types of work done on their behalf and that list varied. I will give you a couple of examples. If someone wanted to come under one program , let us say the domestics program, they would charge a set fee. That set fee could be from $5,000 to $1 0,000. If someone wanted to come under a working visa, once again there would be a different fee for that particular program.

They had brought up a concern to me that that was happening in Winnipeg, and that made it especially interesting. When I came back to Winnipeg, I did have a meeting with the RCMP regarding some of the information I had heard. Madam Deputy Speaker, the RCMP told me at the time that they were investigating a case in which this particular individual's family was involved. They had asked me not to raise the issue, to be quiet on the issue because they were concerned that if the issue was raised, in fact, what would happen is doors would slam shut. It would limit the investigative capacity of the RCMP.

Out of respect for not wanting to limit wha t was going on with the RCMP investigation-something that they have put in, what I was told, over a year and a half-I had decided, along with my colleague the member for The Maples (Mr. Cheema) to not raise the issue at least until the RCMP had indicated to us that it was safe for us to bring the issue to light. Since the I-Team report, the issue has been brought to light.

We did talk to the RCMP office, and the RCMP office did say there was no sense in myself holding back anything; that, in fact, I could feel free to bring the issue to whomever I felt it was necessary to bring it to. That is when we brought it to the Chamber. Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to cite a specific case that actually has taken place. The I-Team is well aware of this because I believe that they had used this individual in their report.

What had happened is this individual who had lived abroad was told that if he came to Canada, in fact, he would have a job working at the Max restaurant which would be preparing food. * (1 430) This particular would-be immigrant was told that the job would be there. It would be waiting for him; that, in fact, it was shown in no unclear terms that this

part icular individual had con tacts within Imm igration who were friends with the government, and there were going to be no problems. The individual came to Canada, in particular to Winnipeg, and upon arriving at the airport was told that the job was not there; that, in fact, this particular restaurant does not exist. Madam Deputy Speaker, the individual came here feeling that he was going to be given that job. He ultimately ended up pumping gas at a gas station in the city of Winnipeg, and after a while, Imm igration had served him deportation papers.

Not wanting to go into too much detail of the investigation, this individual came here, felt that he had a job, that he had done everything legally, that it was legitimate as far as he was concerned, and what ended up happening is, he was served deportation papers for not doing the work that was said on the immigration papers. Madam Deputy Speaker, this individual then went to the RCMP and some other community leaders.

What has resulted is the laying of charges on a certain individual or potentially, I should correct myself, the alleged laying of charges on one individual and the potential of additional charges being laid. This individual plays a very pivotal role in what might be happening in this whole court or what could be a court process if in fact charges are laid. I have not heard-and it is not from a lack of trying-the other side if you will, and it is not, as I say, that I am not interested in trying to find out what the other side is.

I am interested in finding out what the other side is and, ultimately, we will find out exactly what has gone on.

May 30, 1991 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 2714 Madam Deputy Speaker, what is going to happen is this individual is still facing a deportation and what ultimately could end up happening is that this individual will be deported. Some Honourable Members: Highly speculative. Mr. Lamoureux: Highly speculative, but I am saying that I have talked to this individual and this individual is very concerned about it and justifiably so.

The reason why he is so very concerned about it is because he feels that he has done nothing wrong; that, in fact, he came to Canada believing he was going to be working for this restaurant; that it was legitimate. Through no fault of his own he ends up not working for this restaurant because it never existed and ended up getting a different job. Now that it is up for investigation and there could be a court case and this individual would be a very valuable witness, after the court case we could see this individual being deported.

Madam Deputy Speaker, it concerns me and I hope that the governmen t will be equally concerned in ensuring that consideration be given to this individual. We know that the Minister of Immigration gives out a relatively large number of permits. I believe this is one of the cases that does need to be reviewed, primarily because we have that individual who came here under those circumstances. This individual could prove to be very valuable in trying to highlight the concerns of immigration consultants and some of the problems that we have here.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I wanted to comment on immigration consultants and why we have people who actually use these people. Because in most part of a shared language or cultural background, many would-be immigrants or immigrants will use these immigration consultants because they feel very comfortable, and they can establish a sense of trust especially if it is portrayed that the individual has a great deal of competence in the area of immigration law and procedures. There is a belief that by doing so that they will have a better chance than others in many cases.

Some will say that it will give them that extra inside track, the preparing of the documents, being better able to make presentations and so forth. Those are two reasons that people will go to an immigration consultant. The third reason that I believe that they go to immigration consultants concerns me. That is, it is sometimes believed by many that there is corruption.

Whether it is because they perceive that corruption here or if they perceive that corruption back from their original homeland, there is in some communities a perception that there is some type of corrupt ion, that bribery of some sort can help in facilitating a loved one or potential sponsor to being able to come to Canada. It is very hard to combat that perception. We inside this Chamber like to believe that, in fact, does not exist.

At times we are given reasons to believe that there is some concern in terms of the latter when some immigrants or potential immigrants feel by paying such and such an amount of money that they might be able to get that extra push through by avoiding what would be regular procedures. That is really what concerns us most. Madam Deputy Speaker, we are concerned about immigration consultants; in short, because anyone can become an immigration consultant, and they can advertise if they want. There is nothing really preventing them from doing that.

They do not have to be familiar with the laws and the procedures of immigration. Nothing prevents them from putting a clip inside a newspaper or whatever it might be. We are concerned when we hear about the high fees for what is perceived, I guess, as a relatively simple service, or even in some cases, what could potentially be a free service. It is very hard to define to a certain degree, Madam Deputy Speaker, a simple service or a free service or a high fee.

Really, it would be a very hard thing to regulate, but it is something that does need to be addressed. * (1 440) We have the federal governm ent and its immigration that has certain fees for certain things. One has to wonder if something can be done in terms of establishing that fee structure so that people who use immigrant consultants-no doubt there are just as many, if not more, immigrant consultants who are first-class individuals who take a lot of pride in what they do and will go to bat. We are most concerned in terms of misrepresentation or any type of fraud. Some might imply this.

I know in one family that I had talked to, there were indications that if you want to come to Canada, these are the types of things that you need to say or you should be saying and, as I say, that really concerns us. We need to understand what I have really tried to point out fully so that, in fact, the province can

2715 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1991 actually do something. That is why it is more important that we do have an independent study, so that we can get a better understanding of the whole picture because the Civil Service investigation and the RCMP investigation are limited in terms of what they can do,

whereas if we were to enact an independent investigation and give it broader ranges, we might be able to come up with a better understanding of just how serious this issue is. Madam Deputy Speaker, one should ask, what can the province do following what could be an independent public inquiry? Well, one could think, through the departments and that task force that I had mentioned earlier, a couple of days ago, it implies in the task force report that the province has some jurisdiction over the licensing. I do not think we should be brushing over that too quickly. I know the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) and the Minister of Cu lture , He ritage and Citizenship (Mr s. Mitchelson) say they will be doing some follow-up on this issue. I would hope that they would act rather quickly on that, even though I have nothing to say or nothing to prove that they will not act quickly on it. I hope for those immigrants that, in fact, she does act on the remar ks she has made out. Anyone who wants to charge a fee for advertising immigrants or potential immigr ants, with the possible exception of lawyers, could be required, for example, to have a licence of sorts or to be registered.

There should be and there needs to be some type of standards. By doing this, we can have things such as annual renewals. There could be a thing of code of ethics. You could have something in the nature of conflict of interest guidelines. There can be a background checkup so if someone does have a criminal record in the past or anything of that nature, that before the licence is given out, we know who these individuals are. Madam Deputy Speaker, I believe that there are many different people in all of the communities who deal, talk or give advice on immigration matters.

The ones that concern myself more so are the ones that charge, and those are the ones where I believe there should be some type of licensing. I am not saying that we should ban them because I do believe they serve a very valuable role. Because there are exceptions, there needs to be something put in place to ensure that abuse or potential abuse of these would-be immigrants, or exploitation, is minimized. If we did have a government that was willing to take the action that is necessary, well, then I believe that we can go a long way in trying to resolve this matter.

At the beginning I had said that there were two aspects that I wanted to touch upon in my grievance. The first one was in regard to the immigration consultants. The second one is in regard to multiculturalism. The government's actions since it has come into office back in April of '88 is something that I believe is very lacking. We have seen the province, this government take, I believe, the wrong approach to multiculturalism. They talk about how committed they are to multiculturalism, but they do not, in fact, act in a way in which Manitoba's multicultural community would benefit.

I wanted to go over some of those actions that this government has taken. Just a short while ago inside the Estimates process, I had moved a line which would have seen MGAC lose its funding in hopes that this government would recognize the fact that funding through MGAC or funding multicultural groups through MGAC and not MIC is wrong. That was the issue that this government decided that they would go to the multicultural community.

In fact, they issued a press release saying that Kevin Lamoureu x and the Liber al Party oppo sed multicultural funding which was an outright-I hesitate to use the word "lie" so I will not use it straight out. The government shortly after that sent out another pr ess release, saying that the government defeated the Liberal motion, that multicultural funding remains with MGAC. Well, I think the Conservatives were very proud of that fact. * (1 450) Let me tell the government what the different ethnic communities think of the press releases in this particular case, and this government's attitude.

When we have a real issue , what does the government do? The government does not do anything. They are not sending any literature out to say or to explain some of the probl ems. The government is not, I belie ve, doing what is necessary in order to get the right information out to the ethnic groups. They are using those ethnic groups, and I wanted to point out just how this government has decided to use ethnic politics, multiculturalism as a way to garner votes.

May 30, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2716 We have a first with the establishment of MGAC, the political appointments to that board.

We have the establishment of the Multicultural Secretariat's office, which I must say from the onset that the Multicultural Secretariat's office is something that is supported from the community, but the way in which this gove rnmen t has fil led positi ons in the Mul ticul tural Secretariat's office is all wrong because under no circumstances can the director, in my opinion, or the minister on the current director's beha lf say that this individual was given- the member for River East (Mrs.

Mitchelson) could not tell me that had it not been for the card, the political affiliation of the individual who was appointed to Multicultural Secretariat, if it was not for that card that individual would not have been appointed there. This was an individual who ran for the Conservative Party, who now goes out to the different ethnic communities, who receives grants from the government to represent the government. I think when people are sitting back, many of the individuals who are sitting back realize just why this individual was appointed. It is not only at that level, we even have policy analysis.

One of the positions, which was a political appointment, in which the government the minister has said would open up for open competition, that which still has not happened. Madam Deputy Speaker, when this happens, I believe in the eyes of many the government is losing support on its multicultural policy because of some of the actions that they are taking. We hear about the Outreach Office-a nd it was advertised. I am glad to see that it was advertised. I can only hope that, in fact, the individual who is selected there will be done on a political manner, and I trust in fact that is what will happen.

The governmen t has talks about a multicultural policy. We are still waiting for the multicultural act. Madam Deputy Speaker, I would ask if you could indicate to me when I have two minutes remaining? -(in terjection)- Thank you. These are the issues that come up time after time no matter where I go, and I do attend a few events around the province. I do talk to a number of different commun ity leaders reg ard in g multiculturalism and the direction that the province is taking on multiculturalism.

The thing that comes up time after time is that this government is more interested in the vote getting of multiculturalism than multiculturalism as it actually should be. We can cite examples of that time after time. We see what the government does when it comes to the political side of multiculturalism, and we see what the government does when it comes to the real issues.

There is no lack of effort from this government when it comes to the political side, but when it comes to the real issues of multiculturalism such as combatting racism, such as employment equity, such as credentials recognition, that is where we see that this government is failing to act. That is what offends so many individuals in the different ethnic groups because it is all nice for us to talk about multiculturalism, but what members have to realize and in particular what this governmen t has to realize is that multiculturalism is a lot more than song and dance.

Multiculturalism in Manitoba should be based on social, political, economic, integration into society, and this is what the government should be placing as a first priority. Madam Deputy Speaker, that is what the Multicultural Secretariat's office should be putting its primary concern on. That is what the Outreach Office should be putting its prim ary concern on. That is what MIC does put their primary concern on, but what has the government done to ensure that those organizations have the ability to be able to further the cause of multiculturalism in the province of Manitoba?

Well, when it comes to MIC we see that they have taken the funding capabilities away from them, we see that they have cut the operational costs of MIC funding, we see that they leave them in leased facilities where they are charged over $3,000 a month, which they just simply cannot afford. When the minister says, let them use up their reserve fund, once they have done that, then they can come back to government. The government does not want MIC.

In terms of the Multicultural Secretariat's office, Madam Deputy Speaker, how can the government say that their primary concern is to further the cause of mu lticul tu ral ism , when they mak e the appointments rather than have applicants or leave it open for all individuals. I believe that there would have been many individuals. We saw that on the Outreach Office when the Minister of Imm igration and Citiz enship (Mr s. Mitchelson) put an advertisement into newspapers for the Outreach Office, there were 900 applicants.

That is the same process that I would suggest to you that should have been used for the Multicultural Secretariat's office.

2717 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1991 This way we would know that the government's primary concern for the Multicultural Secretariat's office is not politics, rather it is to further that multiculturalism which, as I say, includes that economic, social and political integration amongst the other things like preserving and enhancing the culture and heritage of all the different ethnic groups that make Canada what it is. Ma dam Depu ty Speaker, the Outreach Office-a nd the jury is still out on the Outreach Office.

We are hoping that the Outreach Office is going to be announced in September, that the Outreach Office will be filled by nonpolitical appointments. The minister has indicated that, but I am still concerned for the simple reason she also indicated that the policy analyst individual would be renewed, the term position would be renewed once, possibly twice. Well, it has been renewed more than that now, and the excuse she uses is that she is waiting for the Outreach Office to be established. Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, I see my time is, unfortunately, running out.

I wanted to close on a le tter tha t I ha d received from Lakeview Development, and it talks about immigration. As of April 15 more than 600 businesspeople in Hong Kong, Taiwan, the Philippines, Malaysia and Korea have invested in hotel projects developed by Lakeview in Canada. Each investor has applied for Canadian visas for themselves and their families under the investor immigration program. Imagine the impact on the local economy when 600 families, each with an average net worth of $1 .9 million, move to Canada. Madam Deputy Speaker, let us not just look for immigrants who have the financial resources.

Let us keep in mind that we are looking for immigrants for all reasons. Once we recognize that we want immigrations on compassionate, on family reasons, on working and on investments, then let us work on having a real multicultural policy that we have to stop giving lip service to multiculturalism, that we have to stop using multiculturalism in order to get votes, that actions speak louder than words. * (1 500) The actions of this government, as of to date, have been towards politicizing the multicultural community, and that is a step in the wrong direction.

We, in the Liberal Party, believe that you have to take the step in the other direction where we see political, social, economic integration, where we see that heritage and culture are recognized and enhanced. On that, Madam Deputy Speaker, I thank the Chamber for listening to what I had to say. Thank you. * * * Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Deputy Speaker, I rise under Rule 26.1 (1 ) to use my right to express a grievance. I would like to include two topics in my grievance today, one of personal concern, namely, the scandalous approval of the Rotary Pines project.

Secondly, a matter of concern to my constituents in Burrows, namely, the lack of funding for Pritchard Place Drop-In Centre. As members know from Question Period, I was at a very interesting meeting in St. James last night. I think a rather significant meeting, organized by people opposed to the Rotary Pines project. I think it was a good meeting, because it was well organized, and these people have many excellent ideas for trying to stop Rotary Pines on its present site.

It was also a significant and an interesting meeting, because they unanimously passed a motion to hire legal counsel to seek an injunction to stop Rotary Pines. I think if I was a former city councillor, especially one sitting in cabinet now, I would be quite concerned about an injunction and the possibility of being subpoenaed, having to go to court and having to testify about things that happened in the rezoning application.

I am told by people who were there at the time that there were a number of irregularities in the rezoning application, and that if they go to court, there is a good chance that they are going to win and thereby stop the Rotary Pines. An Honourable Member: What do you think the lawyer is going to tell you? Mr. Martindale: The member asked what do I think the lawyer is going to tell us. Well, I do not know what the lawyer is going tell me, and I am not going to be part of those meetings because I was not asked to be part of those meetings.

Whoever they contact as legal counsel I think will be giving very good advice to that group from St. James. I would like to go over some of the things that were said at the meeting last night to -(i nterjection)- the member for Ste. Rose should stick around. I

May 30, 1991 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2718 was-o ops sorry, the member for Ste. Rose will be interested in some of my comments later on. I was going to refer to him. The comments that were made at the meeting were very interesting and I would like to share them. It seems that since Rotary Pines was raised in the House, there seems to have been a gag order put on MHRC staff, and so they are less forthcoming with information now than they used to be.

It used to be that you could phone them up and they would give you the kind of answers to questions that you wanted, but now they are saying, I am sorry, we cannot give you that information; you will have to use the access to information legislation. A number of people said that there should be no commercial zoning on the river anywhere south of Portage Avenue in St. James. The people there are quite clear about their impression. They are saying that the Rotary Pines sen iors project is a front for the strip mall, that it was the developer who started this.

The developer wanted the strip mall, and he knew he would never get it. Even the councillors in St. James would not have agreed-including former members of City Council- to strictly a strip mall or strictly condominiums on the Red. What did they do? Well, they said, here, we have this developer. He has this idea. Let us put it together with something else. Let us put it together with a Seniors RentalStart program and when the two are together, then we can get it through the community committee and we can get it through council. So a deal was struck.

They put it together in the best possible way to get it through council and the only possible way to get it through council. It never would have flown if there had not been a seniors project on the site. Many people at the meeting last night said there is a need for affordable housing for seniors in St. James. They were opposed to the kind of equity that people have to put up and said they could not afford it and their neighbours could not afford it, but there was a need for affordable seniors housing in St. James. We heard that over and over again.

Somebody said that the Rotary Pines is a fraud right from the start. They sa:id that in 19 88 counci ll ors knew abou t it. It was a behind-closed-doors project. That is what people at the public meeting said last night. Someone said that the city of Winnipeg is one of the worst cities in terms of town planning. He described Rotary Pines as a little bit immoral and a little bit criminal. I thought that summed it up quite well. They said this is a great idea, this Seniors RentalStart. You get people to buy an apartment and then they pay rent on top of it.

Sounds like a good deal if you are the guy who is selling it. They said this project is wrong. It is wrong for the people of St. James. If it goes in, then more commercial development will follow. In fact, the planner is on record as saying that if this goes ahead, then it will be extremely difficult, maybe even impossible, for City Coun cil to say no to future comm ercial developments on the south side of Portage Avenue in St. James. The planner is concerned that it is going to set a precedent. Someone said there is nothing decent about Rotary Pines.

Several people talked about the noise effects, and there was someone there who is an expert on the effects of noise who said that there are more effects of noise than just on hearing. Excess of noise affects people's blood pressure ; it affects their tolerance to noise. I finally got some information that I have been looking for for quite a while and that is, what are the decibel levels? Well, on Portage Avenue the traffic alone is 75-80 decibels. The average aircraft noise is 99 decibels and an aircraft, I think a DC-9, going over the site, is 10 3 decibels.

Someone else said that this is a case of a senior cabinet minister playing catch-up with his friends. A very thoughtful person who was at the meeting, who has made numerous presentations to community comm ittees and City Council on all riverbank developments in the city of Winnipeg because he is very concerned about protecting public access to riverbanks, happens to be a resident of Headingley. He said that riverbanks should belong to the people. There should be no change in the condition and no commercial development. He said he dreads the thought of Portage Avenue looking like Pembina Highway.

Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, we have two different visions of what our city should look like. There are people like the member who is trying to talk over me right now, the member for Riel (Mr. Ducharme) who thinks that it is okay to have a highway looking like Pembina Highway which is nothing but a strip mall from one end to the other. Then there are other people who think that you shou ld preser ve the ex isting ch arac ter of

2719 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1991 neighbourhoods, that there are enough strip malls already, that it is good to have parks on a major thoroughfare like Portage Avenue, that it should be kept that way, and it should not be developed into one strip mall from one end to the other. There are two different visions of what our city should look like, two competing visions.

This same distinguished gentleman who was at the meeting last night said that rivers are the only natural beauty in the city of Winnipeg, that we do not protect riverbank property and that we do not do it nearly as well as other cities in western Canada. This individual travels regularly to Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Saskatoon and Regina with his job, and he is quite well informed about riverbank property in those cities.

One example that he constantly uses in public is that in Saskatoon, where they have the Meewasin development auth ority, I th ink it is called -(in terjection)- Yes, based on probably an aboriginal name, they do protect public land on the riverbank, and they have 17 kilometres of public land on the riverbank. As a result, Saskatoon is one of the most beautiful cities in western Canada, and that is what this individual and many other people are saying we need to do in Winnipeg. • (1 51 0) We have begun to do that in Winnipeg. The member for Riel (Mr.

Ducharme) is very proud of the riverbank development at the Forks and between the Legislature and the Forks, and the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst) as well, and those are good developments. They have provided access to the public. As was pointed out in Estimates the other day, there were something like 50,000 people at the Forks, and the new walkways beside the river were so successful that it was elbow to elbow with people on the weekend and it was hard to walk.

We need to take this good model that many members here agree with, on both sides of the House, and extend it up and down the riverbanks as far as we can and as far as we can afford. It was this same distinguished gentleman who moved that a committee be charged with looking into an injunction and that they seek legal counsel. One of the things that they are going to investigate is suing the City of Winnipeg over irregularities and the rezoning procedure for the Rotary Pines site. There are some interesting stories that councillors who were there in 19 89 have to tell.

One is that the developer was passing notes to city councillors while debate was going on. I am informed by current city councillors that this is highly irregular, that it is not allowed. When somebody objected to this happening on the floor of council, the chair of council confiscated the notes. They have been put in a sealed envelope, and they are iri a vault. I think that if they do go to court somebody is going to subpoena those notes, and we are going to find out who wrote them and to whom they were passed.

I think there are going to be some people, perhaps in this Chamber, who are going to be embarrassed to be mixed up in the Rotary Pines rezon ing, because they were very involved in the rezoning and possibly involved in some of the irregularities. I am also told tha t the Free Press took photographs of cheques from a developer that were on the benches of council members. It is alleged that the developer said that if the Free Press published the photographs, they would be sued. So they have never been published, but it would be interesting to have those-- Hon.

Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Oh, but you are alleging that in the House. Why do you not allege it outside the House? Mr. Martindale: The member for Pembina says why not allege it outside the House? Well, it was alleged in public meetings as far as I know. It would be interesting if a lawyer were to subpoena those pictures in a court case. I think it would be an absolutely fascinating court case. The Rotary Pines is running into some problems, num erous probl ems, but one of them is that approval in principle was given on July 12 , 19 89.

There is provision that they must pass third reading within 24 months. So it is possible thatthe applicant is going to come forward and ask for an extension. I think this is going to be a rather interesting process, because it means that the public would, once again, be all owed to present brief s at com muni ty committee and at other levels, perhaps on the floor of council as well. Probably they are going to have a lot of opposition and may not make the deadline. Last night, the airport sent somebody in the place of the genera l manager who said, we need provincial legislation to protect the airport.

The Minister of Urban Affairs and Housing (Mr. Ernst) and the Premier (Mr. Film on) keep referring to this.

May 30, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MA NITOBA 2720 Probably eventually they are going to get around to doing it, but they are going to grandfather Rotary Pines. They are going to do it after Rotary Pines is approved or after Rotary Pines is built. They are going to grandstand. They are going to have flowery speeches. They are going to talk about the economic benefits of the airport, the number of jobs that it generates, how the airport economic activity needs to be protected and pass legislation to protect the airport after Rotary Pines, after their favourite project has been approved or has been built.

Last night, someone made a comment that I also wrote down that I thought was rather wise advice for me and other people. They said, we need to look at what is good for the whole city as opposed to what is only good for their political party. I think that is one of the problems here that we have, and that is that people are not looking at the good of the whole city.

They are looking at this individual project and getting a 35,000 square foot strip mall approved, rather than looking at what would be good for all of the riverbank land in Winnipeg, or what would be good for all of Portage Avenue, or for all the residen ts of St. James, rath er than a few Tory- developer, commercial interests that are approved on this site. Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to talk in a more general way about Seniors RentalStart and more particularly about Rotary Pines. What were the original goals of Seniors RentalStart? One of them was to stimulate the construction of housing for seniors.

Has it achieved that goal? Well, probably it has. The result of this and other housing programs in the city of Winnipeg is that there is probably an oversupply of housing, especially in the inner city, but the vacancy rate in Winnipeg last year was something like 7 percent. So people have choices in the housing market. They can live in this part of the city or that part of the city. They can move into a place that has a move-in incentive or a bonus, and there is lots of choice in the private rental market. ls there a need for seniors housing in the community of St. James? Yes, there is.

Many people referred to that last night. They said there is a need for affordable housing in St. James for seniors. Would Rotary Pines help meet that need? Yes, it would help meet some of that need. Of course, it is not affordable housing. It is housing for rich seniors, but it would meet the need for a small number of people. It would occupy 86 suites. Well, if it does meet the needs, then why am I opposed to construction of Rotary Pines? I will spend some time on a couple of reasons. First of all, because it is in the wrong location, and even the Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Driedger) agrees with me on that one. He is on record as saying that this project is going in the wrong location. In fact, he tried to oppose it. He even appealed to the federal government to overrule it. On November 1, 19 89, he said, quote: there is federal legislation that allows him to protect air space and with that he could override a decision by city council. So the Minister of Transportation was interested in opposing this project a couple of years ago at the time that the city was carrying out the rezoning. His colleagues in Ottawa, two federal Ministers of Transport, were interested in opposing this.

It is still in the paper. There is an

article in today's Free Press about the federal minister using his legislative authority to overrule projects that are detrimental to airports. Unfortunately, there is a technicality that says that they cannot do it after the city has approved the zoning, according to someone who is quoted in today's Free Press. (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) So we are opposed to the construction of Rotary Pines because it is in the wrong location. ft is too close to the airport.

Airport officials and the noise committee of the airport and many other people are very concerned about the adverse economic impact on the airport, especially the possibility of closing down night flights. We on this side have expressed concern that this not happen because it would jeopardize night cargo flights out of Winnipeg Airport, but I am also informed by airport officials that it could jeop ardize charter flights out of Winnipeg that go out at night to places like Hawaii and Las Vegas. People could be greatly inconvenienced if there was a change.

If they could not fly out of Winnipeg at night, they might have to go to Toronto and then go to foreign des tina tions. Many people could be inconvenienced by that. I believe that Rotary Pines is the front for a 35,000 square foot strip mall and 10 condominiums and that without Rotary Pines zoning approval would never

2721 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 19 91 have been given. I am told that this is the first time since 19 72 that land south of Portage Avenue was rezoned commer cial in that part of St. James. Why am I opposed to Rotary Pines? The second reason is that there is a perception about the manner in which it was approved and that perception is that there was political favouritism. Let us look at what happened. This was not the only applicant. We know that there were at least six applicants. There may have been as many as 12 applicants. What happened to these other applicants?

They had their application forms in. Many of them had equity, either in terms of tenant equity or land or, in some cases, cash-i n fact, substantial amounts of cash that community organizations had raised. What happened to them? Some of them were told they had excellent applications. They were told there was no money. We have no money in Seniors RentalStart. Please apply over here, so they did. They sent their technical resource groups back to redo all the paperwork and application forms, and they applied under the private, nonprofit program. Who was in the private, nonp rofit program?

After these six people reapplied, ther e were 10 6 responses to the proposal call on the private non profit. I know the former Minister of Housing was bragging about how successful the private, nonprofit program was. He was saying, we were swamped with applicants. We had 10 6 applicants. What happened? They had a queue of six people and they were put in a queue with 1 06, and many of them are extremely disappointed that they did not get funding under the private, nonpr ofit program as well as the Seniors RentalStart program. * (1 520) What happened after they applied?

They were told there was no money in December, and then in February Rotary Pines applies. The application is dated, I think, February 11 , one day after the new minister is sworn in as Minister of Housing. What happened to their application? Were they told there was no money? Of co urse not. They were fast-t racked. The staff were told to have meetings and help them, and they did help them. They took it to MHRC board, and conditional development funding was approved. They are marketing their units in a lightning period of time. What is the public perception?

The public perception is that the decks were cleared, that the other four applicants, and maybe as many as 12 applicants, were cleared out of the way. They were put into another program. They were misled; they were told there is no money; and then one applicant, Rotary Pines, comes in in February of this year and they get their conditional project development fun ding. Why? Could it be because of their connections with the Min ister of Housing (Mr. Ernst)?

Is it only coincidental that he has good connections with the Rotary Club and with the developer, and that the developer donated $4,000 to the Conservative Party? Is it coincidence? I hardly think so. It is more than coincidence that they had a good friend who was in cabinet who was the newly appointed Minister of Housing. What are those resource groups saying? Well, I phoned them up. They are furious. The minister said they were not aggressive enough. They said, we did contact the minister's office, and he talked to us about the next funding year and said, we do not know what is happening.

We know now what happened. After the budget came out, the Seniors RentalStart program was wiped out in the budget, and so they wer e misled. They were not encou raged to reapply when the money was restored to Seniors RentalStart. Mr. Acting Speaker, I have a few more questions on this program. For example, will the taxpayers get value for their money? Not likely, because I think their per unit costs are going to be very high. In fact, one of the things we would like to know is their land acquisition cost. The Minister of Housing (Mr.

Ernst) has promised that he will answer detailed questions in Estimates, and there will be hundreds of detailed questions in Estimates for the minister on Rotary Pines. I can assure him of that. Was the project tendered? No. Do they have to tender? No, they had a choice. The developer could bring it forward or they could tender, but there are alternatives. Look at the applicant from Niverville seniors organization. They got 1 O tenders. They said they were all too high. They sent them out again. They said, we want the three lowest to bid again and give us lower prices, and they did.

The Premier said, well, Rotary Pines is going to have to tender all the subtrades. In fact, there is a publication that has all the contracts in it. It says, Rotary Pines, they will be tendering the subtrades

May 30, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2722 in the summer of 19 91 . So we phone up the contractors and we say, well, are you being invited to tender on Rotary Pines? What do they say? They say, no, we are not being allowed to put in tenders on the subtrades, contrary to what the minister said in this House. How are they going to do it? Well, maybe they are going to hire a project manager, and he is going to choose the subtrades that they want. What is going to happen? It means their costs are going to be higher.

That means the taxpayers of Manitoba are subsidizing higher construction costs than they needed to. Would the Conservative governmen t like to get out of Rotary Pines? You bet they would. Why would they? Because there are people in cabinet who have had applications from their area of the province, from their constituencies, who got turned down. We know one of them. There are others. We are still doing research finding out the names of the others. One is the minister from Ste. Rose. I understand how people write letters in support of projects in their constituency.

I would not be at all surprised if there is a letter of support from the Minister of Highways and Transpor tation (Mr . Driedger) for the Niverville seniors, because it is an excellent group. I have talked to the gentleman who is in charge of the Niverville seniors. Probably there is a letter on file from the member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings) commending the Neepawa Elks and telling them what a good project it is and how he will speak to the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ernst). Niverville is an excellent project. We used them as an example.

We are going to be using them as a further example in Estimates, because Niverville, to their credit, came up with a very innovative funding proposal, which I just learned about this morning. Hon. Albert Drledger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): It is unique. Mr. Martlndale: It is unique, says the Minister of Highways and Transportation. It is good and we commend them. Unfortunately, it bears no relationship to what happened with Rotary Pines, which is quite a different subject.

In fact, in the past we thought ther e were two appli can ts under Sen ior s RentalStart that were funded, now we find out there is only one. -(i nterjection)- That is right. I agree with the Minister of Highways and Transportation. I stand corrected. We were basing our information on newspaper stories that had lumped Niverville seniors and Rotary Pines together. Now we find out that Niverville is unique, and it does not follow the normal procedures for Seniors RentalStart. In fact, you could argue that it is better, because there is less risk of the taxpayers' money. The member for Ste. Rose (Mr.

Cummings), he probably wrote a letter commending the Neepawa Elks and telling them what a good project he has. -(i nterjection)- I am glad to hear that the member for Ste. Rose is listening. What happened to their application? Well, they got diddled. They got directed to another program. Why did that happen? Did the member for Ste. Rose get a chance to speak on this in cabinet? I will bet he did not. I will bet him and several other members are furious, because they did not even have any input in this decision. They would have loved to, because there was $1 0 million there.

They could have funded two projects, and they only funded one. The demand in rural Manitoba is much greater than the city of Winnipeg, where people do not have choices. In rural Manitoba there are many small towns that do not have apartments. There are small towns that do not have an oversupply of apartments. They do not have vacancies. Many people live in their own homes until they die, but they would rather live with their friends and neighbours in a seniors complex.

They want the social benef its . -(i nterjec tion)- There are small towns with no apartments where there is a demand for programs like the Seniors RentalStart. Those seniors wanted to live together. They wanted the amenities that come with those buildings. They want to live with their friends and neighbours. I would imagine that there are a number of rural members here today who supported their Seniors RentalStart applications from their communities in rural Manitoba.

In fact one of the groups, a group in northern Manitoba, was told that the Winnipeg market was oversaturated, and next year the money was going to go to rural and northern Manitoba. Did the money go to rural and northern Manitoba? No, Mr. Acting Speaker. It went to Rotary Pines in Winnipeg. It could have gone to two, maybe three rural applicants, and it did not go to any of them. So what happened to these applicants from rural Manitoba? They got turned into another program that had 10 6 applications, and then they got turned down. They got burned by this government. They

2723 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1991 got burned by this process, and they are furious because I have talked to some of them. I have talked to their resource groups. I have talked to one of the sponsoring gentlemen from Neepawa Elks, and I know that as soon as I got off the phone from this gentleman that he phoned his MLA. He phoned his MLA the same day and said, what is the member for Burrows talking about? What is going on here? I am sure that the member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings) said, it is okay. We will look after you. We will look after the member for Burrows.

We will see that you get looked after, but I know that they are upset. They are furious because they did not get approval, and one group -(in terjection)- ! have probably talked to a lot of Tories in rural Manitoba. Even in Flin Flon I talked to a Tory. I talked to a former candidate for the Conservative Party in the federal election in 1 988, and he was very forthcoming. He gave me all kinds of information. You can be sure that when people are sharing information with an NDP Housing critic, and they are Tories, that they have got to be upset, and they have got to be mad, and they believe that they are misled.

They have been misled by the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ernst), and I think they were not only misled by this Minister of Housing, I think they were misled by the former Minister of Housing. I believe he was deep into it, and it is regrettable we cannot find out what his role is because the government does not have to answer any questions on behalf of the former Minister of Housing. I am absolutely convinced that he was deeply involved in this and that he knows what happened to the Rotary Pines applicant.

We will never find out, and that is very regrettable. * (1 530) So these applicants in rural Manitoba, many of them, in fact, all except one that I know of in a Conservative constituency they feel burned and they are angry, and they have been sharing lots of information with me. Let us look more particularly at the history of Rotary Pines. How did it get started? Who hooked up the developer, Bob Akman, with Rotary Pines? Well, who knows. It might have been the former Minister of Housing. He might have phoned him. He knew that these two gentlemen needed each other.

He might have put them in touch with each other, but I do not suppose we will ever know. In fact, I do not think there is a paper trail on these decisions. I think it is phone calls, and so we will never get pieces of paper because they are not there. They covered their tracks. I do not think it is unusual to make phone calls. I think probably lots of phone calls get made about all kinds of things, and that probably- An Honourable Member: Table .... Mr. Martindale: If we could get the phone calls tabled, that would be wonderful, but we are not going to get it. Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Are you going to table your phone calls? Mr. Martindale: Sure, Mr. Acting Speaker, the member for Ste. Rose asks if I will table my phone calls. I have already mentioned that I talked to a gentleman in Neepawa. I might as well say that his name is Mr. Small. I talked to a man in Flin Flon. I have talked to people in lots of different comm unities of rural Manitoba, most of them in Conservative seats, and I would be quite happy to tell the House or to tell the minister in Estimates who I talked to, how often I talked to them. I talked to a gentleman in Niverville.

I think I made that a matter of record. These people are very forthcoming. They tell me what I want to know, unlike Manitoba Housing staff who have had a gag order put on them and will not tell anybody anything since this all started on April 9, I believe, in the House. I do not blame them. The staff of Manitoba Housing do not want to lose their jobs. In fact, some of them are probably in trouble for talking to the Free Press. There are a lot of unanswered questions about Rotary Pines. Rotary Pines seems to have begun with a letter rather than an application form.

It seems that the letter was all it took to keep their place in line until February of this year when they finally submitted an application form . We would like the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ernst) to table that letter from Mr. Akman. Why? Because four other applicants had excellent credentials and application forms, and they were told there was no money and diverted elsewhere. Why did the developer for Rotary Pines drop the num bered units from 10 0 to 86? Why did he take off the top two floors? Why did he make these changes when he had approval for 10 0 units and 11 floors?

Was it because someone said, take off the top two floors because of the airport concerns, the noise concerns and height concerns, and it is a done deal?

May 30, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2724 We will do it for you. I suspect that somebody said to the developer, take off two floors and you have it-a nd he did. He got good advice. He was told what to do to get it through. Now, Mr. Acting Speaker, I am going to change topics now. We will have lots of opportunity in Estimates. I think we have 10 hours. Who knows, we might go 20 hours on Rotary Pines alone. There will be lots more questions, and we will be seeking information. The Minister of Housing has an hour per floor of Rotary Pines. I like that.

The Minister of Housing has promised in the Chamber to go over the Rotary Pines application in detail. We have a blank application form for Seniors RentalStart. You can be sure that the critic for the Liberal Party and myself will be asking lots of detailed questions about Rotary Pines. Mr. Acting Speaker, I would also like to use my opportunity to grieve to talk about a topic which is of concern to my constituents in Burrows. That has to do with Pritchard Place Drop-In Centre. They now have funding to the end of September.

I talked to their director today, and they are very happy that they can stay open during the summer months. This is an organization that has had funding problems right from Day One and all kinds of other problems like a boiler that broke down and had to be re pla ced. Mo st re centl y, they had a break-and-enter and considerable vandalism was done. Their weightlifting equipment was scattered all over the building and onto the street. Their pool tables were wrecked. They are now negotiating with the insu rance compa ny to try and get compensation to replace their equipment.

Today they are having a meeting with three organiz ations, represent atives of the City of Winnipeg, Winnipeg Foundation and Manitoba Lotteries Foundation. They are asking for help. What are they asking for help for? Something that I think is a very simple request, and that is a request to meet with the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer). They are trying to get help from these other organizations just to get a simple meeting with the Minister of Family Services. Now they wrote to him. The last time they were in touch with him was before Christmas, and the minister said he was too busy.

I can understand that a minister is busy with Estimates, with the House being in session, but they have a request, and that is that after the House adjourns the minister meet with them. Surely, he will not have the same excuses about Treasury Boar d, the House, Estimates and legislation, and then he can meet with the board and staff from Pritch ard Place. I think that is a reasonable request and look forward to the Minister of Family Services agreeing to that. I see certain cabinet ministers nodding their heads. They also agree that it is reasonable. So I will pass that on to the Minister of Family Services.

Why is it important that Pritchard Place staff and board meet with the Minister of Family Services? Why does Pritchard Place need Core funding? There is a need for drop-in centres in this city. Right now, there is only one large drop-in centre for Native youth in the inner city of Winnipeg, and that is Rossbrook House. Rossbrook House is about 11 years old. They are doing an excellent job. They have Core funding. They have good staff. They have good training programs, but there is a need for a drop-in centre like Rossbrook House in the north end. Pritchard Place is that place. It is an alternative to the streets.

Now we could be judgmental. We could say, well, why are these kids on the street at all hours of the night? Is it not their families' responsibility to look after these kids? It is true, maybe they should be in the charge of their parents and their families but the fact is the kids are on the streets. They need an alternative to the streets. They need a place to go. They need a place like Pritchard Place. It is the alternative to the streets for many of these kids. I think the government has a choice.

The government can spend money now on Pritchard Place Drop-In Centre by giving them Core funding or the government can spend money in the future on family services and corrections. I think it will cost a lot more to help these children when they are youth and when they are adults and when they are involved in the correctional system. It is going to cost a lot more money then than it would now to fund Pritchard Place. In conclusion, I hope that Pritchard Place is successful in getting a meeting with the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer).

Secondly, I hope they are successful in getting Core funding because they need it. Recently I was at Pritchard Place. It happens to be in Burrows constituency and I thought it was

2725 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1991 sad-the kind of equipment they have, the lack of paint. The place is run down. The place does not look like a pleasant place to spend time but there are kids who love going to Pritchard Place because they get attention from the staff, they get fed and they can take

part in activities that they enjoy doing. What they need is some good equipment. What they need are some bright surro undings. What they need is money so that the staff can be there when the kids are there and when they are needed. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) We need a place like Rossbrook House which has a philosophy that says that no child need be alone if they do not want to be alone. Consequently, they are open 24 hours a day on weekends. They are open 24 hours on school holidays. They are open 24 hours a day in the summer, so Rossbrook House is there for kids when they need a place to go.

We need a place like that in the north end. We need Pritchard Place to be properly funded, to be properly staffed, to be properly equipped and open when the greatest need is in the evenings and on weekends in the summer. If they had adequate funding, they would probably adopt the same policy as Rossbrook House. They would probably love to stay open 24 hours a day on weekends. They would love to stay open 24 hours a day in the summer when the need is there. Pritchard Place is the alternative to the streets for kids inthe north end. " (1 540) In conclusion, Mr.

Speaker, I hope that Pritchard Place is successful in getting a meeting with the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) and successful in getting Core funding, because it is desperately needed and the government can fund it now or they can fund increased costs for these same youth in the future. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. " "" Ms. Becky Barrett (Welllngton): Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to exercise my rightto express a grievance before the House today. Mr.

Speaker, since the election of this government in Sept emb er of last year, one of the major pl atforms, one of the majo r things that this governmen t has been talking about is their commitment to the families of Manitoba. They have talked in the last two budgets about the major increases that have taken place in the Department of Family Services; in particular, have pointed in pride to the percentage increases that the budgets have given to the Family Services department.

I have risen on numerous occasions in this House as have my caucus colleagues to burst the bubble of this government in its statements about the major increases that this government has given to the families of Manitoba. In April of this year, the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) had a press conference at which he unveiled the government's new plan for the child care system of the province of Manitoba, just slightly over one month ago today. Since that time, I have risen in the House to ask numer ous questions of the Minister of Family Services.

The individuals, families, pare nts of children in day care, workers in the day care system, executive directors of the day care system, the Manitoba Child Care Association, the Family Day Care Association of Manitoba, unionized workers in the province who work in day cares have all asked the minister and members opposite for responses, for justifications for the incredible change that this government is perpetrating on what was a model child care system in North America.

I am forced today to rise on a grievance, because none of those questions from no matter what area have been answered in any way that gives any sense of comfort to the people who have asked the questions. The current proposals that will be implemented, unless the government sees the light and makes a change, early in July will have a dreadful, negative impact on the families of Manitoba who use the child care system, the day care centres themselves, and on the entire system as a whole.

I would like to speak to those three issues in my grievance today, to put on record some of the concerns that have been raised with me, that have been raised with the minister, that have been raised with many of the government members of the Legislative Assembly with absolutely no response. One of the most important changes that this new vision of child care in Manitoba undertakes is the change in who suppor ts the day care system in the pro vinc e.

Under the day ca re system as established by the previous government, it was agreed to and understood that the government, through the Family Services department, using the taxes of the residents and businesses of the

May 30, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2726 province of Manitoba was a full partner with the parents using the child care system. It was understood by all parties that not only did the par ents who used the sy ste m have a responsi bility for helping support in a financial manner that system, but also the government had a major role to play not only in establishing standards and regulations, but also in helping provide the financial resources to enable the day care system to continue to be a model for North America.

Over the past years it has been recognized by the government, both the previous NOP government and a year and a half ago the Conser vative government when, I might add, it did not have a majority, but was still in a minority situation and so had to be very careful about hiding its true agenda and its true ideology. At that time, in October of 19 89, after a very successful campaign culminating in what we fondly remember as peanut day here in the Legislative Assemb ly, it was a wonderful example of community action. The member for lnkster (Mr. Lamoureux) tells me that the peanut day did break the rules.

I believe it would have broken the curren t rules as put forward by this government in its narrowing of access of individuals and citizens to the public building that they have a right to attend. However, that is a side issue at this point-important, nonetheless. After the pare nts and the children and the professionals in the day care system met with and discussed these issues with the minister at the time, the Honourable Charlo tte Oleson, there were changes made. The salary enhancement grants were increased. There was more money made available to the day care system in this province.

That was a tacit understanding that the system as a whole was not yet adequately funded. There is no one on our side of the House who does not agree with the fact that the day care system that was established by the previous government was and should continue to be a model for North America and has been seen as such throughout the professional child care community.

We also agree that the resources available to that system, with particular regard to the salaries paid to the child care workers in the field, were not adequate, which was the reason for the institutio n of the salar y enhancement grant in the beginning. The salary enhancement grant was for $4,300, approximately, each year for each Child Care Worker II and Ill, each trained child care worker that a day care had on staff. Up until the recent announcemen t made by this minister last month, those salary enhancement grants were provided to all Child Care Worker II and Ills in each day care centre.

I think this is a very important aspect of the legislation that has been changed a great deal by this government. The regulations governing quality standards in relation to training of staff under the child care act require that, as a minimum, each day care centre must have two-thirds of its staff be either Child Care Worker Ifs or Ills. I stress that the regulation states this as a minimum. Until last month, when the Minister of Family Services (Mr.

Gillesham mer) made his major changes public, every day care in this province that was eligible for a salary enhancement grant got that grant for each Child Care Worker II and Ill they had on staff, whether they had only the bare minimum of two-thirds or, as many day cares did, have 10 0 percent of their workers be trained and qualified lls and Ills. The previous government and the minor ity Conservative government, through their funding of all Child Care Worker lls and Ills, understood and clearly stated that they realized those regulations were minimums, they were floors.

What this government has done in its changes as annou nced last April 18 , has made that floor into a ceiling. I will get into that in a brief moment. The other major change that the government has und e rtake n is the remo val of the salary enhancement grant as an individual discreet grant to each day care, They have now folded it into the general operating grant that each day care will receive. That is another change.

The impact on the families that currently use the day care system and may want to use the day care system in the future is, on one hand, very easily calc ula ted and, on the othe r ha nd, alm ost incalculable. The percentage increase for day care fees for parents is quite interesting when you take into account the relationship that that has with the percentage decrease the government is giving to day care centres. If you have a child between the ages of zero and two in a day care the fees for parents will be increased by 48 percent. So on June 30 you will pay a certain fee for an infant in day care space.

On July 1 you will pay almost 50 percent

2727 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1991 more for that same child in day care. If you have a preschool child, a child from the ages of two to six, the parent fees will be increased by 18 percent. * (1 550) In tere sti ng to note tha t the gove rnmen t percentage of support for day cares has decreased by virtually the same amount. It has decreased by 18 percent for preschool children and 48 percent for infant day care spaces.

In effect what this has done is it has put in one immediate one-ti me change, completely reversed the percentage of the cost of day care that is paid for by parents versus the cost of day care that is paid for by the government. The salary enhancement grants has also had two changes. As I mentioned earlier, the grant itself has been rolled into the overall grant to each day care and, secondly and most importantly, unlike the previous NOP governmen t and the minority Conservative government, which gave a salary enhancement grant amount for all professionally trained child care workers for each day care.

These current changes that take place on July 1 in the grants to day cares will be the $4,300 for Child Care Worker lls and Ills, but not for every Child Care Worker II and Ill that you have in your day care, over two-th ir ds, bu t only for the minimum. Consequently, day cares that currently have more than two- thirds trained staff will not receive that amount of money in the grant that they had before for any additional trained staff over the minimum two-thirds. The impact of these changes on families is incalculable, as I stated, and as well can be easily calculated.

At this time, I would not like to read completely into the record letters that were written to myself, to the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) and to MLAs on the government side of the House. I would, however, like to share with the House today some of the concerns that were raised in these letters, concerns which, I might add, have been addressed by myself, by child care workers, by volunteer day care board members, by the Manitoba Child Care Association as well. Here is one letter which comes from-it is addressed to myself. The parent resides in the Deputy Premier's (Mr. Downey) riding.

I wanted to put that on record, to state that it is not just day cares and parents in New Dem ocrat seats who are concerned about this. She and her husband both work full time and they have two preschoolers who have attended the local day care centre for the last three years. They are very pleased with the quality of care that they receive and do not look forward to finding alternate care for their children, because they will not be able to afford day care this July.

This mother is a board member of the local day care centre, having watched that centre in a rural area struggle to gain acceptance within the community and win that struggle. She states: If this fee increase goes through, we might as well shut the doors because most of the parents will not be able to afford the increased fees. We have all worked too hard to see that. I would like to pause here just to state that this is a case, and there are many of these examples, where parents of children in day cares have spent long hours working as volunteer board members for the day care centres.

They have worked to establish day cares. They have worked to work with the staff in the day cares, and they have worked to try and educate the community at large, in general and, most particularly, the government of the day, to the need for high quality day care. They are very concerned that the changes that were announced by the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gille shammer) last month will have an irreversibly negative impact on that day care system and their own family situations. She feels that her children deserve the best of care, as do everyone else's.

Why should her children be subjected to second-rate care simply because they cannot afford exorbitant fees? She goes on to state that the proposed changes that are to take place in July affect middle-income earners. The families who are currentl y subsidized will continue to be subsidized. Families who are currently not subsidized will continue not to be subsidized. The limit at which you, under the new regula tions, will not be subsidized are virtually the same range as they were before these upwards of 50 percent increase in fees have taken place. She carries on with her letter to sa

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-2-54
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 2nd hansardpdf 54.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	3395e0e7f57e45d0c1d41eb933bff4b27f8220ff

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