LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 22 April, 1982 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. D. James Walding (St. Yitai): Presenting Petitions . . . READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS MR. CLER K, Jack Reeves: The petition of F.G. Hold­ ings Ltd. praying for the passage of

an Act to grant additional powers to F.G. Holdings Ltd. MR. SPEAKER: Present ing Repo rts by Standing and Special Committees . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. LAURENT DESJARD INS (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to table today the 1981 Annual Report of the Manitoba Council on Aging. I've asked the Clerk's Office to make sure tha t every member had a copy. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motio n ... Introduction of Bi lls ... ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPE AK ER : The Hono ur able Member for Minnedosa. MR. DAVID R.

BLAKE (Mlnnedosa): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My quest ion is directed to the Minister of Agriculture, so I would like to now direct it to the Acting Minister of Agriculture. In view of the reports that the rebuilding of the Pool Livestock Auction Yards in Brandon hinges on the new Be ef Income Stabilization Plan proposed by the Minister of Agri­ culture, I wonder if the Acting Minister could confirm this to the House. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Munici­ pal Affairs. HON. A.R. (Pete) ADAM (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I cannot confirm tha t to the House. I have not heard or read such a report.

I will take, however, the question as notice for the Minister of Agriculture, who's absent at the moment, and get back to the honourable member. MR. SPE AKER : The Honourable Memb er for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: I wonder if the Acting Minister, Mr. Speaker, might confirm to the House that the Minister of Agriculture has met with the officials of Manitoba Pool in connection of the rebuilding of the yards. MR. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, I am not able to confirm that th ere has been any meetings. There may have been but I am unable to confirm tha t either. I'll take tha t questio n as notice as well. MR.

BLAKE: Yes, while he's th ose questions as notice, Mr. Speaker, he may wish to take as notic e also a question to advise this House whether a study has been done, or is a st udy under way on the impact tha t thi s marketing plan proposed by the Minister, what impact tha t will have on the livesto ck industry and particularly the auction marts th roughout the province. MR. ADAM: Yes, I'll take tha t quest ion as notice too, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. CLAYTON MANNESS (Morris): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Possibly the Ac ting Minister of Agriculture could take other quest ions for notice too, as we have been unable to quest ion the Minister over the last couple of days. Maybe he could tell us how many applications have been received to this date under the Farm Interest Relief Program and possibly he could also te ll us how many have been approved and how many have been rejected . MR. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, I don't have tha t informa­ tion. I will take tha t quest ion as notice on behalf of the Minister of Agriculture. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountai n. MR. A. BRI AN RANSOM (Turtle Mountain): Mr.

Speaker, I also had a questi on for the Minister of Agriculture. Perhaps in the Minister of Agriculture's absence, the Minister of Economic Deve lopment might be able to answer the question. I wonder if she could advise the House if she or her department has any information concerning the number of farmers who might not be able to get operating credit this spring. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Eco­ nomic Deve lopment. HON. MU RIEL SMITH (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, I'll take tha t question under advisement. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister advis e whether or not she or the Minister of Agriculture have met with representativ es of the banks to try and assess the situation tha t the general farming com­ munity is facing this spring with respect to credit? 17 30 MRS. SMITH:- Mr. Speaker, we have meetings planned of a general nature with banks, not relating solely to one group. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I take it from that answer that the Minister is confirming tha t she has not met

Thur sday, 22 April, 19 82 with banks to dis cuss that question? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, not in a co-ordinated way, but we all along are meeting with representatives of the banking community. In fact, quite a few come and initiate meetings with us. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. GARY FILM ON (Tuxedo): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Honourable Minister responsible for the Envi ronment.

I wonder, in view of reports tha t as many as 80 people at the Fetherstonhaugh High Voltage Lab at the Un iversity were exposed to cancer­ causing PCB's, whether or not his department is satis­ fied that these people, both the firefighters and tho se who worked in the lab, are not subject to any long­ term health hazards as a result of their exposure to the PCB's. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of North­ ern Affairs. HO.N. JAY COWAN (Churchi ll): Mr.

Speaker, we are not satisfied that they have not been exposed to long­ term health hazards as a result of their exposure to PCB's and accord ingly have put in place what we believe to be a number of mechanisms which will help us deal with this particular problem. The first is to work with the fire department to ensure tha t we receive better communication and more up-to-date information in respect to the se explosions and fires which may involve PCB­ containing transf ormers and materials when the y happen. So, we are presently working on that program.

As well, we have contacted a large number of indi­ vid uals; students, firefighters, camera crews, media people and other individuals who were in the area to inform tha t ther e may be hazards ass ociated with their exposure. We are understan ding at this stage tha t it was a very low-level exposure, but that con­ cerns us nonetheless. Accordingly, we have asked the Workers Compen­ sation Board to take notice of thei r exposure to this particu lar hazard and they have done so.

So tha t in the event tha t th ere is a long-term effect on the individu­ als, we will have a record of it from tha t perspective and the Workers Compensation Boar d can act more exped itiously in respect to their involvement in this matter. As well, we are reviewing the entire situation in respect to attem pting to determ ine better ways of making known locations of PCB-containing trans ­ formers and materials, so that firefighter s and others are more equipped with the specific knowledge of where these hazards may exist when the y are called to a particular fire.

So ther e are some long-term solu­ tions which we hope to undertake, ther e are some shor t-term proced ures which we have put in place and we hope to be able to deal more effect ively with the se types of problems in the future. MR. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if in addition to tha t, the Minister would consider perhaps setting up some form of medical evaluation or medical che cking over a period of the next six months, a year, or longer, since many of the health hazards may not show up 17 31 immediately and may be something that needs further checking and evaluation as time goes on, and I wonder if the Minister would consider setting up such a program perhaps in co-operation either with Work­ place Safety and Health or the Health Department itself. MR. COWAN: Well, in fact, what we are concerned about are two types of hazard.

The first hazard would be tha t which would accompany the event itself within a few hour s of tha t event having taken place. There appears not to have been any known hazards that we are aware of as a result of short-term, acute exposure to PCB-containing contaminated air as a result of this explosion, so we are satisfied at this stage with the information available to us tha t ther e were no shor t­ term effects which would have been immediately noticeable. On the other hand, the long-term effects are not effects which are going to take place in six months or a year.

Of course, we're concerned about the carci­ nogenic properties of some cont aminants such as this and for tha t reason, we are looking into a ti me span approaching 20 to 30 years, two to thr ee decades. We have notified the individuals who have been involved in this incident tha t they may have been exposed to PC B-contaminated air and we have told them of our concerns and we have asked them to deal di rectly with their own physicians in respect to deter ­ mining whether or not other precautions should be made. We, of couse, will provide any specific informa­ tion to any physician who should request the same.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G.W.J. (Gerry) MERCI ER (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. Is it the intention of the First Minister, now tha t the Constitu­ tion has been patriated, to seek an amendment th at would eliminate the override provisions of the new Constitution? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. HOWARD R. PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, it is not my intention at the present time. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I believe the First Minis­ ter had indicated previously tha t he does not like the override provisions in the new Constitution, tha t Manitoba will not use them, and I am wonderi ng what his reasons are now for indicating this position. MR. PAWLEY: I would have to seek your advice as to whether tha t question is in order because I thoug ht I had answered the first question in the way tha t would deal with the question.

I indicated, no, it was not the intention at the present time for us to seek an amend­ ment from the Federal Government and, indeed, for me to ca rry on with my answer would be to in fact put me out of order in regard to my answer. As the Member for St. Norb ert must know, ther e is a com­ mitment to have a Constitutional Conference within one year to deal with immediate concerns which deal with the tr eaty and aboriginal issues. Those issues are

• • Th ursday, 22 April, 19 82 to be dealt with with in that Conference and, as I indi­ cated, though we are unhappy with the final result of the Constitution in various respects, it is not our intent to press for amendments at this particular point. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the opinion given by Professor Gibson in the Un iversity of Mani­ toba, whom I believe the government has retained to conduc t a study of Manitoba Statutes, in view of his opinion tha t hundr eds and perhaps thousands of sec­ tions of Manitoba Statutes are void under the provi­ sion of the new Charter of Rights and Freedoms, would the First Minister st ill ind icate tha t it is not the intention of the government to ever use the override provisions of the new Constituti on? MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Sp eaker, again I refer to you the fact that the Honourable Member for St.

Norbert asked pretty well an identic al question in regard to intent re using the overriding provis ion, some month or six weeks ago. I have not received the report tha t the Honourable Member for St. Norb ert is referring to, by Professo r Dale Gibson of the Un iversity. I believe that the Attorney-General has seen the report and I would ask the Attorney-General if he wants to com­ ment on the report? I have not seen it. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON.

ROLAND PENNER (Fort Rouge): Ju st to clar­ ify a point, not to be expansive on it, ther e is no report and the former Atto rney-General knows tha t there is no report -(I nterject ion)- th at's right, but I am just assisting you in clarifying what didn' t come out all th at clearly, from your remark. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verend rye. MR. ROBERT (Bob) BANMAN (La Verendrye): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I di rect my question to the Minister of Economic Development and would ask, in light of the New Democratic government's promise that it would take action to prevent the loss of small busi­ ness due to abnormally high interest rates, I wonder if she could inform the House what she is doing to ensure tha t the op erations of Dawsteel will be con­ tinued out in North Kildonan and th at some of the 60 employees over ther e will not be laid off. MRS. SMIT H: Mr. Speaker, we have two of our department pe ople working with Dawsteel and we have a meeting arranged here to night with all the parties involved. MR.

BANMAN: A supplementary to the same Minis­ ter, I wonder if she could tell us whether the election promise of first contr act labour legislation was a con­ tributing factor in the failing of this company. MRS. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, it would be premature for me to give an

interpretation of all the causes of diffi­ culty ther e. No th ing tha t I've heard to date would indicate tha t the member opposite's analysis has any relevance whatsoever to the situation. MR. BANMAN: Well, in light of tha t answer, Mr.

Speaker, I would have to ask the Minister whether she will be examining the affects of any new proposed legislation, as well as existing legislation, and dis cuss tho se with the str uggling businesses and operators in Manitoba before the y embark on any major changes to labour legislation to ensure tha t the people that are currently employed will not be adverse ly affected and that the people counting on the se jobs will not be out of a job, just because of some labour legislation or some hangups tha t the NOP have. MRS. SM ITH: Mr.

Speaker, ongoing consultation and evaluation goes without saying in our approach to programs. As we've said on many, many occasions, we are looking at an economic system which balan­ ces out both the benefits and the obligations and that's the principle on which we will continue to operate. MR. BANMAN: I wonder if the Minister of Economic Deve lopment, in her answer, indicated tha t an ongo­ ing consultation would be carried on with the busi­ nesses.

I wonder if she could inform the House whether or not th ere was any discussion with the business community in the Province of Manitoba as to the impact of the just newly announced minimum wage. MRS . SMITH: Mr. Speaker, the whole question of wages and jobs and how we organize our economic life has been a matter of profound and overwhelming concern to us and naturally, when we're formulating our policies and programs, we consult all the people concerned. I mean th at's part of our way of operating; it's what we've been doing and it's what we will con­ tinue to do. Mr.

Speaker, in our consultation, we don't only go to one group and say, "please te ll us what to do." We go to the group to hear what their situation is, what their prospective on the problem is. Then we go back and accept, Mr. Speaker, the full responsibility of a government in power which is to take all the information and the opinions from the different groups, weigh them and come out with a consider ed best proposal. MR. BANMAN: I wonder if the Minister could inform the House whether or not the new minimum wage was discussed with the business community before it was announced. · 17 32 MRS. SMIT H: Mr.

Speaker, every delegation that has come to my office tha t has been th ere with the pur­ pose of looking at the overall economic situation and our policies, their concerns has included a dis cussion of wages. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L.R. (Bud) SHER MAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, my quest ion is to the Honourable Minister of Labour. Under the previous government, there was a quasi­ official Labour Management Committee tha t oper­ ated in the health care sector aimed at red ucing the impact of contract disputes in the health care sector. I

Thur sday, 22 April, 19 82 wonder if the Minister could advise the House whether that committee is sti ll in place !!nd operating, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. VIC SCHROE DER (Rossmere): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yes, tha t committee is known as the Maclean Committee. I have talked with Mr. Maclean who is sti ll th e Chairman; I have asked him to conti nue on. I believe tha t committee did some very valuable work over the years. Before tha t, at one stag e, it was known as the Woods Committee.

That committee is working on trying to get back into a position where the health organizations and the unions will have an agreement in place with respect to what might happen if they don't agree on contracts for this summer. They have not come.to a complete agreement yet, but talks are ongoing right now and they are being encouraged by the government. MR. SHERM AN: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister for tha t reassu rance.

I would ask him whether tha t com­ mittee or his office is embarked upon dis cussions with different units, facilities, and locals in the field of hospital and personal care home nursing with respect to the forthcom ing negotiations tha t will have to take place in 1982 relative to the negotiation of a new nursing contract in the province? MR. SCHROE DER: I can't say that specifically they have been looking at the nursing problem. I know tha t the y have been looking overall at all of the problems.

I would be surprised if the y weren't looking at the ques­ tion of nurses' contracts, but I will take the question as notice and get back to the member on tha t specific det ail. MR. SHERMAN: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker, has the Minister, thr ough his office or through tha t Committee or, indeed, through the Civil Service Commission, dealt with the prospect of the nursing negotiations from the point of view of unitary tables, fragmented tables? Has he talked to the Health Sciences Centre, St.

Bonif ace and other individual facilities about negotiations on a nursing contract at a central table as against fragmented situation? MR. SCHR OEDER: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Those ques­ tions, I presume, are under dis cussion in the Commit­ tee because the health organization would be con­ cerned about the matters raised and certainly the health care unions would be concerned , specifically MONA. I'm sure tha t is a part of the discussion, but again, I will get back to the member with more detail on that specific segment. MR. SPEA KER: The Honour able Memb er for Pembina. MR. DONALD ORCHARD (Pembina): Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. My question is for the First Minister. Is the First Minister sti ll responsible for the government Information Services? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the Depar tment of Information Services rests withi n my responsibility. MR. ORCHARD: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, will the First Minister request that a correction be issued when a news release issued by a Minister conta ins nonfactual information? MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, the individual Ministers assume responsibility pertaining to Information Ser­ vice releases tha t are issued in their name prior to their distri bution. MR. ORC HARD: Mr. Speaker, tha t didn' t exactly answer my question. I asked the First Minister, who is responsible for Government Information Services, whether he would request a Minister to correct non­ fact ual information which appears in a government news service issued under his department. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, if we are dealing with a matter of a mistake tha t is significant and important then the individual Minister, I am sure, in such a case would wish to correct same. However, I am rather leery of any suggestion by the honourable member tha t a mistake has been made when we might very well know that it's something tha t is very trivial or simply a matter of difference of opinion. MR. ORCHARD: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to see tha t the Minister is so concerned about Estimates of expenditur e tha t range in the area of millions, and I'm pleased also to hear tha t the Minister would enter­ tai n a suggestion tha t his Minister of Highways might correct a news release issued on April 16t h, in which he says tha t $10 0 million will be spent on highway construction, up $16 million from the amount spent last year. That news release went out April 16 and, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to point out to the Honourable First Minister tha t according to Hansard, page 1263, April 7, 1982, some nine days previous to tha t press release, tha t the $16-million increase in the amount spent is not fact ual according to page 1263 in which the ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. POINT OF ORDER MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General on a point of order. 17 33 MR. PENNER: This again is an abuse of question period. The Honourable Member for Pembina is not asking a question.

He is making a state ment, reading into the record some passage or passages from Hansard alleging tha t ther e has been some error. Let him ask the question at the appropriate time and in the appropriate way. Question period is not a time for making state ments of that kind. It is not a question; it wasn't in the form of an introd uction to a quest ion, simply a state ment of that person's opinion; tha t's all it was. MR. SPEAKER: On the same point of order, the Hon­ ourable Member for Pembina.

- I Thursday, 22 April, 19 82 MR. ORC HARD: On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Attorney-General has suggested that I pose these questions at the appropriate time, which I would assume would be the Estimates of the Depart­ ment of Highways, which are past, and it is informa­ tion tha t has emanated from those Estimates perusal that is incorrectly portrayed in this news service release, and I would like to ask the First Minister for a correction. That is the point of order. MR. SPEAKER: I am sure that all honourable members would not wish q uestion period to consist of argu­ mentative questions.

Perhaps the Honourable Member for Pembina would wish to rephrase his question. MR. ORC HARD: Mr. Speaker, I will rephrase my final supplementary. In light of the fact tha t an April 16th press release indicates tha t spending is up some ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable First Minister on a point of order. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I though t the honourable member wanted me to answer. Now, he's proceeding to a further . . . MR. SPEAKER: Will the Honourable Member for Pembina complete his question? MR. ORC HARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My sup­ plementary question to the very anxious First Minister is th at in view of the fact that an April 16th press release indicates highway construction up $16 million from the amount spent last year and in view of the fact that Hansard, page 1263, indicates tha t the actual expenditur e from last year will be $93.5 million, only $6.5 million up over the last year, would the First Minister request his Minister of Highways to issue a correct news release state ment for the benefit of Man­ itobans seeking factual information? MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I would assume that the former Minister of Highways would first ask a ques­ tion of the present Minister of Highways as to the statements tha t he's alleging having been made and as to whether they are accurate or not. I would ask the Minister of Highways to deal with the specific fact ual comments that have been made by the former Minister. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Gov­ ernment Services. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, the Member for Pembina is quite correct.

The press release is not accurate in that the figure tha t they are referring to is a figure over last year's vote, rather than actual expenditur es. So, in tha t context, he is correct and th ere has obviously an error been made in the press release. MR. SPE AKER: Or der please. The Honour able Member for Morris. MR. MANNE SS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to direct a questi on to the Minister of Natural Resources.

I am wonderi ng what efforts this government and he specifically are going to be taking to request the Fed­ eral Government to increase their contribution from 45 to 50 percent as far as the building of the valley dykes go. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resou rces. HON. AL MACKL ING (St. James ): Mr. Speaker, as I indicated to representati ves of the valley towns, I agreed with their suggestion tha t further effort be made to convince the Federal Government to restore full funding of 50 percent to the costs of protection of these communities and such a letter is being prepared by my staff.

I will not only be writing; I will be talking personally with the Minister of Environment. MR. MANNE SS: Thank you. lfthe se atte mpts are not successfu l and an increase is not received from the Federal Government, is it the intention of this Minister then to drop the issue and charge the municipalities and towns the 5 percent of the capital costs? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, tha t is a question based on hypothesis that I will det ermine; I will look at tha t situation when I have that response. I have indi­ cated to the communities that the position of the prov­ ince is one tha t I think is reasonable. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance. I wonder if the Minister of Finance can advise the House if he is contemplating an issue of provincial savings bonds. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. SCHROE DER : It is a consider ation. We have no current plan to do so, but there have been discussions. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister advis e the House what the rate of redemption has been on bonds being redeemed before maturity? MR. SCHROE DER: Is the mem ber talking about a new bond?

Well, if he's talking about a new bond, we're very far away from any issue. We don't even know whether we're going to issue one. We do n't know whether he's ta lking about ones that are out ther e now. The Leader of the Opp osition is shaking his head. 17 34 He doesn't realize if th ere are funds out ther e and, if we ever decide to get into a Manitoba savings bond, then we will tell the member what we will be doing. MR. RANSOM: I apologize, Mr. Speaker. I did not realize tha t the Minister of Finance thought that you could redeem bonds that hadn't been issued.

I was of course referring to personal savings bonds tha t had been issued in the past. Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Finance can adv ise the House now, with respect to a question tha t I asked him some time ago which was, what percen­ tage of post-secondary educat ional funding will be

Thu rsday, 22 April, 19 82 paid for by the Federal Govern ment under the new cost-sharing arrangements. MR. SCHRO EDER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I do have some material here somewhere, but it isn't a defi nitive answer and maybe I won't bother referring to it. There are two areas for which we get money from the Fed­ eral Government for est ablished programs. That is health and post-secondary education and ther e is an argument out ther e about percentages. As the members know, we are currently in the process of Health Estimates, which ind icates spending of over 900 million ther e.

I understand tha t a ball-park figure of post-secondary education spending is, I believe, 250 million in the province and ther e are a number of different ways of calculating tha t. You can add in capital costs or keep them out; you can add in tuition costs or keep them out, etc., but if you add in all of the provi ncial costs, certainly our provincial costs for both programs together will run to well over $1 bil lion in the year 1982 -83. Our total contribution to EPF, from the Federal Government for 1982 -83, will be somewhere under half a billion dol­ lani.

So, th ere is no doubt tha t, in total, more than half of the do llars tha t are being spent for health and post-secondary education will be provincial. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I am quite aware tha t ther e are different ways of calculating. The way I would like it to be calculated is the same way the NOP calculated it when they were in Opposition. On tha t basis, Mr. Speaker, can he advise us what percentage the Federal Government will be paying? MR. SCHROEDER : Mr. Speaker, the way we have calculated it in the past is about the way we are calcu­ lating it now.

We have just indicated what the total amount of spending would be and what the federal contribution will be and I am sure tha t the member can figure that out for himself. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Dauphin. MR. JOHN PLOHMAN (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health. It has been brought to my atte ntion tha t a large number of stu­ dents performing on stage at the Grandvie w School yesterday evening became ill and a number of them fainted and tha t a similar experience happened again this morning. I underst and as well, Mr. Speaker, tha t this school has been closed.

I am wondering if the Minister of Health is aware of this situation and whether he has taken any action on this potentially serious matter. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. DESJAR DINS: Mr. Speaker, I've been apprised of the situation. I'm satisfied with the action tha t's been taken so far. It's true tha t 43 children were per­ forming on a stage last night in Grandvie w School. The majority of them became diz zy, upset and suf­ fered from hyperventilation; 8 fainted and this morn­ ing they performed again and the same thing hap­ pened to 15 others. No w the local physician , Dr. S.

Cantor, ordered the school closed ; this was done. Our 17 35 local Medical Officer of Health, Dr. K. Sigmundson, is on the scene as well as th e public health inspectors and our public health nurses. The Environmental Management had been alerted and they will be test ing for the source of contamination; carbon monoxide poisoning is sus pected. The air conditioner had just been turned on or possibly something to do with a chemical lab which is very close. The latest we've heard, the children are now all right and the audie nce was not affected at all, but thr ough Dr.

French, our Medical Director of Public Health, I expect to be apprised of any new development. MR. SPEAKE R : The Honourable Member for St. No rbert. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Community Services. I wonder if he could indicate to the House whether the committee under Ju dge Kimelman with respect to the study of the placement of Na tive children has been formed. Ar e the y operating, are they making any progress, does he expect a report shortly? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Com­ munity Services. HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (Brandon East): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, the committee indeed has been informed and I just ass ume that the y are working actively and earnestly. I haven't had a report recently, but I'm sure we will be getting reports from time to time, but the committee is under way. MR. MER CIER: Mr. Speaker, perhaps you wish to take the quest ion as notice, but can he assure this House tha t the best interests of the children whose placement may have been delayed is being protected under the existing circumstances and their best inter­ est is not being affected by any delays? MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, the part of the exercise, the point of the exercise is the welfare of the children and the best interests of the children. That's a matter for de bate as to what is in the best interests of the child­ ren, but all of us want to ensure the maximization of child welfare in the Province of Manitoba. MR. SPEA KER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposit ion. HON. STERLING LYON (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance.

Approx­ imately a week ago I was inquiring of the Minister of Finance if he could give us some fix on the date on which this House and the people of Manitoba might expect him to bring down his Budget. I wonder if the Minister of Finance is in a better position today to give us an approximate time for the bringing down of the Budget. It's my understa nding tha t the Budget usually comes down April or May and we're almost thr ough April. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. SCHROED ER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, tha t does leave

Thursday, 22 April, 19 82 May. I had indicated last week tha t we were hoping th at something would be coming from Ottawa. We had some meetings yesterday afternoon with some people from the invest ment community who indi­ cated tha t the y expect tha t may well come before the end of April; so whenever it does come, we will be in a litt le better position to give a specific date. The same thi ng is happening in, for instance, our neighboring province of Ontario where the province is delaying to some extent to see what will come in tha t, hopefully, new Bud get or wha tever the y want to call it.

Now ther e's some indicat ion tha t didn' t happen in Saskat­ chewan. Saskatchewan is in the fortunate position of having a $4 billion in invest ment going on there in this coming year. The last four years they didn' t have the kinds of problems with their government tha t Manito­ bans faced and so ther e is that difficulty. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. HA RRY GRA HAM (Virden): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to add ress a question to the Honourable Minister of Health, and I apologize I did not hear his answer to the Memberfor Dauphin.

But in light of the fact tha t 30 to 40 students yesterda y from Grandview went to the hospital and another 30 to 40 this morning were taken to the hospital, and 20 stu­ dents from Rob lin were taken to the hospital this morning, would the Minister give me any further information tha t he may have on it at this ti me? MR. DESJAR DINS: Mr. Speaker, I shared all the the information that I have presently with the House; I'll find out if there is anything else to add.

I'm sorry, what I have stated awhile ago was all I had, but I'm told anyway tha t the school has been closed and I know that we have the local physician as well as our local public health officer, public health nurses, environ­ mental people, everybody is on the job and I'm sure tha t thin gs will be in order. But, Mr. Speaker, I have a concern on the quest ion of Health while I have the floor. Yesterday, a member handled a dead pet and he sent it over on this side asking for an autopsy. I checked to see what my responsibility and my dutie s are and I'm concerned because he 's not in his seat.

As Minister of Health I should order the person to be adm itted to hospit al; order the person to be isolated ; order the person or any other person exposed to infection, and I wonder if somebody could give me some information because I've order ed a vet for him and I would want to make sure. The Public Health Act also says tha t anyth ing, I guess a person who owned the pet, the owner of the pet, accord ing to isolation of any pet where we're not sure should be done immediately. We've done th at and the bill should be there, the owner should bear the cost of the quarantine of isolation of the bird.

So I'm sorry, but I'll have to send him the bill. Could some­ body tell me if ther e's anything new with the member, is he sick, because we should get on that immediately? MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, a question arising out of the concern of the Minister of Health for the Honourable Member for Rob lin. The Honourable Member for Rob­ lin I can happily report is in good health, but by virtue of the concern tha t is expressed by the Minister of Health, we now shar e concern for the Minister of the Environment. Would he ensure tha t a proper quaran­ tine is put into place for the Minister of the Environ­ ment?

I'll leave it up to the Minister of Health to deter ­ mine whether that should be a health, political, or whatever kind of quarantine. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I'm sorry tha t I didn' t give all the information. We had the Minister fumigated this morning and he'll be shaving his beard this afternoon. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Government House Leader. COMM ITTEE MEE TI NGS MR. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to announce some da tes for committee meetings. The Committee on Economic Development will be meeting Tuesday, April 27th, with respect to McKenzie Steele Briggs Seeds.

Thursday, April 29th, as announced in the Order Paper, the Committee on Economic Develop­ ment with respect to Channel Area and Moose Lake Loggers, CEDF. I would like to announce further a change in a pre­ viously announced date. There was to have been held a meeting of the Committee on Economic Develop­ ment with respect to MDC on Thursday, May the 6t h. This is now to be preempted by a meeting on Privi­ leges and Elections for tha t same date, to continue its discussion with respect to the Ombudsman. RE TURN TO AN ORDER MR. PENNER : Mr.

Speaker, by leave, I would like to file an answer to an Order for Return for the Honour­ able Member for Roblin-Russell, first of all, from the Minister for Economic Development in respect to an Order for Return of correspondence and, seco nd ly, from the Minister for Co-operative Dev elopment with respect to an an Order for Return of correspondenc e. 17 36 ORDER S OF THE DAY ADJOUR NED DE BATE - CRO W RATE MR. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, would you please call the adj ourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Transport, sta nding in the name of the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie? MR.

SPEAKER: The adj ourned debate on the pro­ posed motion of the Honourable Minister of Govern­ ment Services, st anding in the name of the Honour­ able Member for Portage la Prairie. If ther e are any other members wishing to speak on the matter - the Honourable First Minister. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I rise on this occasion on this resolution because it add resses one of the most important issues confronting Manitoba today. The Federal Government's proposal to eliminate the Crow rate, Mr. Speaker, for rail transportation of grain is of special and immediate concern for all rural Manitoba.

Thursday, 22 April, 19 82 It is a concern, Mr. Speaker, tha t cannot be delayed from day to day .. It is also significant, Mr. Speaker, for the residents of Winnipeg. What is the Federal Government proposing? As I read the docu ments, the y are suggesting tha t Mani­ toba farmers pay substanti ally higher rates for trans­ porting th eir grain to export markets because rail capacity to the west coast is not large enough to accommodate the predicted increases in coal. The Federal Government is offering a plan for adding even more costs to the burden carried by farmers in thi s province.

In return, the y are offering no di rect benefit, only du bious and vague reference to possible com­ pensating trends. The research ,t hat was done, was done by the former government of thi s province, Mr. Speaker, research tha t was done under the guidance of a com­ mittee whose members included Mr. Clay Gilson, demonstrate the clear and inevitable result for Mani­ toba from the elimination of the Crow rate. Total agri­ cultural production will decline; net farm income will decline substanti ally. Mr.

Speaker, the Federal Government and its sup­ po�ters are telling the farm community tha t the rail­ ways will not transpor t the grain, which is grown on the prairies, unless the Crow rate is eliminated . The clear implication is tha t the Federal Government will do nothing to encourage or to require the transpor ta­ tion of export grain. In effect, farmers are being de reject told the Federal proposal and the as sumptions which that the y can choose between two equally dis­ astrous alternatives and that Dr. Gilson is available to help lie behind it.

Quite simply, it is a bad deal for Manitoba tiate arrangements for th eir own funeral. Mr. Speaker, we on thi s siand for Manitobans as a whole. The research that was done at the University of Manitoba, research which my honourable friends opposite choose not to make public, indicate tha t annual agriculture production in thi s province will likely decrease by $61 million when four times the Crow rate is cha rged. Net farm income will be cut by $39. 7 million in a good year. That represents more than 15 percent of the realized net farm income of the farmers in Manitoba.

If current trends continue, it will represent an even larger portion of realized net farm income because higher costs are reducing farm income steadi ly. There will also be problems for Win­ nipeg residents, Mr. Speaker. The importance of agri­ culture, as a basis of our provincial economy, is such tha t loss of production will cause a further decline of $62. 2 million in the provincial economy. The forecast is tha t the province will lose 2,2 00 jobs if farmers are forced to pay four times the Crow rate for rail transpor tation of the ir grain and thi s is an optomistic projection, Mr. Speaker.

This projection assumes tha t farmers can increase the ir livestock production by 20 percent. I do not think tha t any party in thi s Legislatu re wants to approve of, or to support a proposal tha t is projected to have at least an effect seven times worse than, let us say, the possible total closure of Victo ria Leather. Yet tha t is the projected impact in just a few years, the time of the changes which are being proposed by the Federal Government. Mr.

Pepin has atte mpted to argue and I quote from a letter he wrote to my colleague, Premier Blakeney, "The government is only asking producers to enter into discussions with it and the railways concerning ways of meeting future cost increases." That sounds fairly mild but then look at the April 15th Brandon Sun. There an advi sor to Mr. Pepin , one Henry Ropertz, states that the freight rate on grain would still be a good deal even if it were tri ple. He estimated that freight rates would tri ple by 1985 if the Crow rate were dismantled.

Sir, I think it is the obligation of all members in this Chamber here, in all members of thi s Legislature to indicate by th eir unanimous and, I trust, nothing short of unanimous approval of the Resolution tha t is before us in thi s Chamber. They do not thi nk and let them demonstr ate by the ir vote tha t they do not thi nk, Mr. Speaker, tha t a tri pling of the Crow rate is a good deal for the farmers of Manitoba. Let every member in thi s Legislature demonstrate that we oppose the des­ tructive and inflationary assumptions that lie behind thi s Federal proposal. Mr.

Ropertz perhaps said more than he was sup­ posed to say. He said , and I will quote again from th at article: "The Federal Government will sta nd by a study done by Washington economist, Carl Snavely, which estimated that railways are losing $61 2 million annually in hauling grain." Thus, the opinion of Mani­ toba Pool Elevators, the other major co-operatives and the evidence of audited financial statements of the railways themselves is simply being ignored by the Federal Government. Why, Mr.

Speaker, because anyone who cares to read the federal documents will realize the y already know what the y intend and what the y will do, tha t the study which Mr. Gilson and his well respected colleagues have undertaken is more an effort to gain credi bility for the federal decision than any effort to make a federal decision. Mr. Pepin and his officials will say they are ready to consider any suggesti ons. At the same ti me, th ey've already announced all the main elements of the action.

They intend to undertake if the opposition from Canadians in thi s and other parts of the country is not strong enough to stop them. Mr. Speaker, I believe very str ongly in co-operative feder alism. At thi s time, I feel it is a fundamental obli­ gation to defend and explain, however, the interest of our province. Ther efore, I must oppose a system which would rob thi s province of more than 2, 000 jobs for the sake of facilitatin g the export of coal from much wealthier parts of thi s country to the west of us.

I ask how any Manitoban can support a federal scheme which is clearly desc ribed as an att empt to shift the emphasis of the western Canadian economy from grain, Manitoba's most valuable agricultural product, to coal which Manitoba does not produce at all. I ask how any Manitoban can point with a stra ight face to the benefits of double tracking through the mountains to the west coast for agricultural indus try whose main export products go in such large propor­ tions to the east coast? Sir, the facts speak well for thems elves.

Manitoba must be concerned about the federal proposal, and the facts make it clear that Manitoba must oppose tha t federal proposal. Mr. Speaker, I do not want to spend much time talking about suggested benefits for other agricultural products. The idea tha t somehow the elimination of the Crow rate will encourage agricultu­ ral processing in Manitoba has very litt le credi bility. 17 37

• - - - - Thursday, 22 April, 19 82 For example, the livestock ind ustry would be obtain­ ing grain at lower prices only if the effect of the Crow rate was to discourage the export of grain. Otherwise, it can reasonably be expected tha t farmers will con­ tinue to store thei r grain in expectation of higher export prices one, two, thr ee years down the road as they've done in the past. In addition, the Liberal Party in Western Canada chooses to ignore the fact that large supplies of grains are readily available for the livestock industry in both Ontario and Quebec.

Whether or not grain from the west is transpor ted the Crow rate, the importance of price is the incentive for increased production of grain, special crops, oil seed s, livestock , is surely apparent to anyone tha t understa nds the Manitoba economy. I know tha t the former Minister of Agriculture has spoken often of the crucial importance of better pri­ ces for the improvement of the rural economy. Elimi­ nation of the Crow rate will in no way affect the price of Manitoba farm products. North American and world markets est ablished tho se prices whether we like it or not.

For evidenc e of this, I need not look any further than the Manitoba Agricultural Market Revie w for the fi rst quarter of 1982. In the first quarter of 1982, beef supplies dec reased by 12.5 percent in Canada. However, a 2 percent increase, just a two percent increase, Mr. Speaker, in U.S. slaughteri ng was responsible for lowering No rth American prices. Pro­ ducer prices for A 1 and A2 steers in Winnipeg declined although the conditions in Canada would have lead many to expect a price increase.

I could give other examples, but I think it is explained clearly enough why we on this side of the House have always been seriously concerned about farm costs as well as farm prices. The price is well out of our control. It is ther efore important for governments in Canada to do all tha t the y can to keep the costs low, and I will adm it, Sir, tha t we cannot do nearly enough on the cost side.

Equally, well documented and acknowledged by Federal Government supporters such as the Free Press Editorial Board is the fact that international economic and market developments are a major influence on the amount of processing that can be done in Weste rn Canada. Changes in the market in the national economies around the world have stripped the west of processing facilities which once flour­ ished here. Those process ing facilities operated with the advantage of the Crow rate.

In fact, few supporters of the Federal Government are willing to acknowl­ ed ge tha t their proposal actually will be increasing the cost of transpor tation for many processed agricultu­ ral products from Western Canada. The one anomaly as we all know is rapeseed. The rapeseed industry has long tried to obtain the same deal as enjoyed by grain; in other words, both the raw product and the processed product to be transported at the Crow rate. The Federal Government has refused this demand on many occasions.

Today they have red uced many in the rapeseed industry to accept the inferior alternative of transporting both raw and pro­ cessed prod uct at high rates. If world tariff barriers against processed rapeseed prod ucts and the desire of other nations to process agricultural products within their own borders were to change, then this might offer the possibility of expansion for the rape- seed crushing industry in Western Canada.

Regretta bly, a few minutes looking at the develop­ ments which have taken place in the process ing of grain, leads one to the conclusion that any gains made in rapeseed crush ing industry would be very short lived . In a few years' time, that industr y may realize tha t they have given up a cost advantage in the transpor tation of thei r raw product in return for a meaningless crush ing advantage. Thus, the impact of this federal proposal upon Manitoba seems inevita­ ble. The impact will be lost farm production. This will be resolved in lost jobs in the indus tries that depend upon agriculture.

Our farms and our workers will be losing income. Our province will be suffering a man­ made economic set back, I read ily acknowledge, Mr. Speaker, tha t Manitoba farmers have indicated some willingness to pay more for the transpor tation of thei r grain if the y're assured tha t the extra money will go directly into better transpor tation of grain. I think that is why farmers in this and in other prov­ inces have been supportiv e of actions by the Cana­ dian Wheat Board and other agencies to use govern­ ment funds from time to time for the purchase of hopper cars.

Those hopper car purchase plans and the support the y have received demonstra te tha t ther e are many more effective ways, more equitable alternatives to this federal proposal. The alternatives, however, Mr. Speaker, were not provided by the Fed­ eral Government. Federal effort has been devoted to ensuring tha t ther e will not be adequate consider a­ tion of any alternatives. The y want the approach that will place an ever increasing financial burden on the farmers and on the weste rn economy.

They are stand­ ing by a proposal which will take advantage of the sentiment for some fair change which exists among a large minority of Manitoba farmers, take advantage of it by using those farmer's money to pay for the export of coal. Mr. Speaker, this is a resolution which does not enshrine NOP policy tha t is before us at this point. It is a resolution which accommodates the interests of the vast majority of Manitoa and, indeed, includes state­ ments made by members opposite.

It is desig ned specifically to win unanimous support because this issue is too important for a narrow partisan approach within provincial jurisdiction. In rejecting this federal proposal, ther e are two questions about the alterna­ tives which I wish to emphasize. One is tha t farmers deserve and have the supreme protect ion which is offered by the statutor y rate.

The Federal Minister of Transporation in his letter to Premier Blakeney stated, 'Th e Crow benefit will be guaranteed in a stat ute passed by Parliament." Yet he had already defined that benefit to be no more than the existing Crow gap esti mated by Mr. Snavely. 17 38 Thus, of course, he is speaking to gain farmers' approval of the inflated Snavely cost estimates, although in future years th ose cost estimates will blow up in the farmers faces. He is also seeking to avoid any federal responsibility for the Crow gap which may continue to open in the future as the rail­ ways use experts like Mr.

Snavely to charge the prairie· farmers for the cost of coal inspired rail improve­ ments. Indeed, Mr. Pepin does not even seem to be sta ting clearly tha t the benefit will have the same level of stat utory protect ion than the existing Crow rate . ..

Thursday, 22 April, 19 82 More worrisome sti ll is the fact tha t the federal pro­ posal places so much reliance upon a stat utory framework. Manitobans have fought unsuc cessfully to save their branch lines under statutory frameworks. People in Manitoba and elsewher e in this country lost passenger service without any chance for public hear­ ings under a so-called statutor y framework. Pas­ senger sta tions have been closed under a stat utory framework. The so-called protecti on of a stat utory framework is really, Mr. Speaker, no protect ion at all.

The rate for rail transpor tati on of grain has been est ablished by statutes and I see no reason for West­ ern Canada to abandon tha t guarantee of full open political de bate of changes in the grain rates. The second point, and it is one in which I wish to welcome allies such as the Manitoba Pool Elevators , is a principle of equal rates for equal distance. Federal officials sit ting in Ottawa like to describe as dynamic and progressive change the depopulation of towns and villages throughout Western Canada. They point to large open spaces where people once lived as evi­ dence of a nation's advan cement. Mr.

Speaker, we on this side and, I'm sure, most members opposite can­ not) ook towards massive rural depopulation with any great joy. The rural lifesty le, the values of Manitoba are the bed rocks of our society -(lnterjection)­ well, I hope, Mr. Speaker, tha t is demonstrated when it comes to the vote and I would hope tha t the members would join quickly any unanimous vote on this resolu­ tion. I wish , Mr. Sp eaker, tha t we would see some removal of the hesita tion th at has been taki ng place over the last few weeks on this resolution that is before us, so we can get on with a clear message to Ottawa.

I think , Mr. Speaker, tha t members across can indeed make a contri bution to the quality of life in this province and far can exceed the number game th at is tak ing place and which is guiding bureaucratic deci­ sion makers. I think tha t the towns and villages of Manitoba are a good place to live and work, to raise a family, to carry on a business. I think ther e could even be bette r places to live and work, but not if we lose one of the major sources of a local industry and attrac tion, and that is the grain elevator. I look at some of the constituencie s, Mr.

Speaker, across the way and see many delivery points which could be closed if variable rates are introd uced and I wonder, for example, if the Member for Arth ur, the poor Minister of Agriculture, would approve of the federal proposal which leaves open the possibility of the elevator being closed at Napinka, Beresford and many other points in his constituency. I look at the Member for Turtle Mountain and I see points like Mariapolis, Ninette and Cartwright which are already th reatened by the federal proposal. I look at Carmen and Miami in the constit uency represented by the Member for Pembina.

I look at Sandy Lake and Clan­ william in the constituency of the Member for Minne­ dosa. I wonder if the Member for Morris will be going to Starbuck and to St. Claude to tell his constituen ts tha t he supports a federal proposal tha t thr eatens the existence of rural communities. What message will the Member for Portage la Prairie, who stood this debate a few moments ago, have for the people in Oakland in his constituent cy? Or, indeed, I wonder what message the Member for Virden will have for his 17 39 constituencie s in Elphinstone. Mr.

Speaker, I regret the Member for Swan Riv er has not debated on this matter in the House as of this point because in the constituency of Swan Riv er, points like Pine Riv er are th reatened, though here I must acknowledge tha t the Member for Swan River at ti mes in the past with in his consitutue ncy has demon­ st rated support to the Crow rate and I would congrat­ ulate him for that, Mr. Speaker. In Roblin-Russell, we have Angusville, we have Cracknell and other com­ munities that could lose their elevators if variable rates are introd uced.

Langruth is amongst those that are th reatened in the constituency represented by the Member for Gladstone and many others, Mr. Speaker, but I think the point is clear. It should be clear to members opposite. If members opposite have any dou bts about the desire of rural Manitobans for local elevators, then let them talk to the Member for Emer­ son or do as I did and talk to farmers from the Sprague area. That area does not have a branch line or a local elevator. Farmers are trucking their grain much longer dis tances than the y wish to.

Faced with this difficult situation, they have suggested, among other thing s, a provincial elevator. That is the sort of request that the government of Manitoba, regardless of which party is in power, can expect in future years if variable rates were to be introduced. The Federal Government has made a great point of saying the y are not proposing variable rates. That is now the case and it is a step forward. Still, what we need is a specific and firm federal commitment to the principle of equal rates for equal distance. If the Fed­ eral Government is able to commit itself to Mr.

Snave­ ly's inflated cost estimates; if the y are able to already commit themselves in the form of legislation which they claim Dr. Gilson is negotiating on thei r behalf, then surely the y can make a commitment to equal rates for equal distance. Mr. Speaker, this is a large and important issue and sometimes I wonder indeed if members across the way are conscious of its importance, one that dese rves a great deal of att ention.

The de bate in this Legisla­ ture is one of several ways in which we can encourage discussion of this issue by Manitobans and as I stated earlier, we specifically designed this resolution to accommodate the views of tho se opposite; views of those th at had been expressed in the past by the Member for Swan Riv er and by other s, such as the other day by the Member for Roblin-Russell.

We have not put forward our. party policy, but a resolution disapproving of the federal proposal on the Crow rate, and I fail to understa nd the hesitation that is taki ng place so far on the part of Opposition members in thi s Chamber regarding this resolution. It is beyond me as to this hesita tion. this uncerta inty, this indec isiveness tha t is being demons trated day by day across the way in this Chamber, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, when it comes to do this, when the Trude au government and the railways say, jump, is ther e anyone in this Chamber that is going to ask, how high?

I hope the re is no one saying, how high, Mr. Speaker, and I hope we can vote on this resolution this week and give a clear indication of the position of members in this Chamber -( Interjection )- Mr. Speaker, I am coming to that. Mr. Speaker, I was

• - - Thursday, 22 April, 19 82 amazed to hear the Leader of the Opposition suggest tha t we do not want to vote until after the Saskatche­ wan election. I was surprised to hear that comment by the Leader of the Opposition. I wonder why. What is the Leader of the Opposition afraid of, Mr. Speaker? In Saskatc hewan as here, we are sta ting that until th ere is a superior alternative, the Crow rate must stay . We are saying that the Pepin proposal is not a superior alternative. I asked again for the Opposition to join with us in agreeing to tha t latter proposition. Today, I ask tha t you agree to this, this week.

If you wish to show your support for Mr. Devine in the Province of Saskatche ­ wan, sho w it. Demonstrate tha t Mr. Devine is sincere when he says tha t the Conservative Party supports the Crow. Demons trate your sincerity, I say to the members opposite, by casting your votes in the Mani­ toba Legislature this week, today or tomorrow. Let it show, Mr. Speaker, with our feet and our votes where we stan d. Let us remove all hesitation, all doubt, as to where this House unanimously stands in respect to the retention of the Crow rate. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

If no other member wishes to speak to this resolution, it will stand in the name of the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Health, tha t Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOT ION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honour­ able Member for Flin Flon in the Chair for the Depart­ ment of Health; and the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Economic Development and Tourism. CONC URRENT COMM ITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - ECON OMIC DEVELOPMENT AND TO URISM MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, Phil Eyler (River East): The committee is consideri ng Item 2. (c) (1) in Economic Development and Tourism; 2. (c )(1) -t he Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. J.

FRANK JOHNS TON (Sturgeon Creek ): Mr. Chairman, yesterday we were discussi ng the small business program. The Minister indicated the numbers of people that had made inquiries and the number of applications tha t had been received and she menti­ oned at tha t time tha t the actual application form th at was presented to the House two weeks ago was not used by all of them, which meant tha t some of the letters tha t came in were basically applicat ions and had enough information on them to be regarded as applications.

If the number of applications since the time tha t the program had been announced is only 99, I would assume tha t the large portion of people tha t are going to apply will have applied or, when they received the applicat ions in the mail, there could be another flurry. That being the case, it would seem that possibly 200 or so applications could come into the department in the next month or so.

I have asked the Minister how long does she estimate tha t an application will take to go thr ough the process of being evaluated by the department as to eligibility and then being evaluated by the Committee as to eligibility and then further, if it's approved, a grant being given. How long does she believe tha t process will take? MR. CHAIRMAN: Madam Minister. MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, the assumption tha t the applications tha t have come in, the 99, do repres­ ent the tak eup on the number of inquiries is not accu­ rate.

Most people wait until the formal applications are avai lable through their banks and so on. The dis­ tribution hasn't been only in mailing out to the people who have inquired, but because the applications require co-operation of whoever the financing body is for the small business person, the locating of the forms in the banks and cred it unions seem to be the best way to distrib ute the information. So, the time or at least the number difference is not surprising to us at this stage. We're expecting, on balance, about half of the inquiries to become formal applications.

We expect about six weeks to cover the current backlog and th ereafter, we expect to be able to process about 20 applications a day, pardon me, a week. MR. JOHNS TON: Twenty applications a week. Mr. Chairman, in the Small Busine ss Interest Debatement Program in Saskatc hewan offers most commercial firms with yearly sales of less than $500,000 inte rest rebates up to $500 on loans from conventional lend­ ers. Al most 500 firms took advantage of the rebates in 1979 and 1980 to the tune of $2 40,000.00. Mr.

Chairman, I would ask the Minister if we were to have more applications or if she believes we would have more applications than Saskatchew an, when our qualifications are of sales of up to $350,000.00. MRS. SM ITH: Mr. Chairman, Manitoba has more small businesses than Saskatchewan. We estimate that 23 ,0 00 in Manitoba will be eligible. We expect the refore a larger takeup, although the ceiling is lower. Also, because economic circumstances have worsened, th ere could be an acceleration of takeup. MR. JOH NSTON: Well, Mr.

Chairman, taking into the conside ration tha t th ere are only 99 applicat ions at the present time and certa inly th ere have only been 14 of those recommended, but if the whole 99 were to receive the maximum grant of cash, which is $3, 000, the balance being in a repayable loan, but $3, 000, I very much doubt if all of them will qualify for the full amount. That would be approximately, well it would be $2 97, 000 or let's say $300,00 0. 00.

If you were to have 300 applications tha t qualified, you would be looking at about $900,000 or $1 million and the Minis­ ter has said that this program has approximately $6 million allotted this year. 17 40

Thursday, 22 April, 19 82 Mr. Chairman, I submit tha t the program eligibility guidelines are such that it will not benefit as many businesses as the Minister is anticipating it will benefit and that the y basically have estimated it will be $6 million, where I can't see where it could possibly get tha t high. If you were handling 20 a week, tha t would take you into approximately 80 a month and 300 applications would probably take you in the area to four to five months and it doesn't appear tha t the amount of staff available to do this can possibly han­ dle tha t load. So, Mr.

Chairman, I would say tha t the amount of money tha t has been estimated to handle this program this year would not be used. MRS. SM ITH: Mr. Chairperson, I can underst and the carefulness with which the honourable member has taken the numbers available and is projecting them and trying to dr aw some conclusions, but I submit tha t an economic program has some of the character­ istics of a living organism. It would be very misleading to take an infant and see what's happening between the second month of its life and the thir d month and extrapolate into age 20 or age 50.

I mean, very few inf.ants acquire teeth at tha t stage and you could extrapolate and say, at age 50 they will have no teeth. No w, tha t might be true of a few, but in general most people age 50 have acquired teeth and have a fair number. Well, my observat ion is tha t some people at age 50, their brains are becoming more powerful and effective and th ere's a small minority for whom tha t's not the case. However, the point I wish to make is tha t what we're dealing with is a program tha t is getting underway. The initial inquiries by phone came about before the application forms were distrib uted.

The time it requires to do a financial analysis, to examine the criteria, to talk with ones banker or financial supporter take a little time. People who are new at working on a pro­ gram, if anyone has sort of worked at any kind of te chnical analysis type program, know tha t in the initial days one's productivity is much lower. One is getting used to new criteria; looking at forming the judg ement abilities to relate one criteria to another. As one acquires experience and, as the tea m acquire experience, the program can move into full swing and the productiv ity increases enormously.

So, I submit tha t to take this sort of snap shot set of figures and extrapolate in str aight lines and apply it to the whole program is really most simplistic and we could withhold all the se figures because th ey don't really give a dynamic picture of the program. We've chosen to sh are them with you, but also to give some assistance in interpreting the meaning of th ese. We do have a projection by the department of the expected year-by-year takeup, the deferred interest, the write­ off portion. when it will come on str eam, the ad minis­ trative costs thr oughout the length of the program.

In each case, the figures have a bearing on, or at least relate to, the stage in the program of tha t particu­ lar expenditur e. One cannot just take figures and do a simple multiplication. You have to look at them in the context of the total program.

We've given our under­ taki ng to monitor the criteria, the takeup of the pro­ gram, its relation to the total amount allocated and if we find that our anticipated experience is different than our act ual experience, we will review the criteria, 17 41 but it would have been foolhardy of us in the first place to establish criteria which either undercharged the program or overcharged it. We have made a best guess on the data available. We are watching it closely and we will adapt it, as we acquire our experience.

That's our notion of good planning and good program design and program implementation, the evaluation and the revision are essential parts of a program and the y will occur. MR. CHAI RMAN: 2. (c) (1) - the Member for Stur­ geon Creek. MR. JOH NSTON: Mr. Chairman, the program bene­ fits the approved applicant with a grant tha t is 50 percent outright grant and SO-percent loan. Do you believe it's adv isable to have a program that will incur more debt to people tha t have already got debt to the point where they are applying for relief so tha t they can stay in business? MRS. SMIT H: Mr.

Chairperson, the program is based on the assumption that we will get a general economic tur naround, but we have committed ourselves pub­ licly to review these emergency programs if ther e's not improvement in the overall economic circum­ stance, so tha t all the se individual businesses will be able to experience some upturn. We have undertaken to generate a next level of program, if we have the means to do so.

Ther efore, we think it's a responsible use of public funds to give one portion grant to acknowledge the current special difficulty of the bus­ iness and one-half loan, which recognizes people's honest desire to stand on their own feet, pay their own way and pay back the way the y would ordi narily. It's a facilitating pr ogram; it's a mixed kind of a program and we think it's a sound program. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (c)( 1)- t he Member for Emerson. MR. DRIEDGER: I just wanted to raise some con­ cerns here.

I've had the fortune to atte nd a meeting the other day in the Red River Valley with some of the people that were expressing concern about flooding in the valley. One of the concerns that the municipal councils brought forward at tha t time was tha t it would appear that any of the communities along the Red River Valley failed to be able to attract any kind of businesses or small ind ustries to establish ther e because of the fear of flooding, to some deg ree.

Further to that, concern was expressed that, to some degree, the issue has been brought to come forward at a certa in stage of the game tha t farm properties, for example, maybe even businesses, tha t the titles be sta mped "Flood Prone" and this led on to quite a conversation at tha t ti me. I am just wondering in terms of economic develop­ ment for the se small communities tha t have a difficult time attract ing ind ustry to begin with and with the flood prone situation tha t is evident from time to time in the valley makes it even harder.

Still, the se com­ munities are very concerned about retaining, com­ munities like Morris for example, Emerson, Dominion City, St. Adolphe, Ste. Agathe. I think the y're all in the same position. I'd like to draw this to the Minister's att ention. Is th ere any way that some kind of program

Thursday, 22 A pril, 19 82 can be worked out, so that the se people are at least in the fair competitiv e stage when trying to vie for some industry to establish th ere? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, this is an issue tha t is tied up with the federal and provincial programs relat­ ing to flooding. The Federal Government developed a policy whereby the y did not want to make dev elop­ ment grants to areas tha t they consider ed flood prone unless, Mr. Chairperson, ther e was an upgrad ing of the dikes so tha t ther e could be demonstrated to be adeq uate protect ion for those areas.

The current con­ troversy about the dykes and the cost-sharing is related to the upgrad ing of the dykes so tha t the flood prone defi nition would not apply to tho se very communities. In the last six weeks, the province has reviewed the initial program that it had assented to and revised their situation. There used to be a 50-50 splitting of costs in dik ing in tha t area, as I'm sure the member well knows. The Federal Government backed off on their portion to 45 percent. The province did likewise and sh ifted 10 percent to the municipal.

When some of the impacts of tha t change were brought to the Provincial Government's att ention, the Provincial Government saw fit, Mr. Chairperson, to restore their shar e of the cost to the 50 percent which had been the trad itional pattern.

The Ministry of Natu ral Resources is currently mak­ ing representation to the Federal Government to try to persuade them to raise their portion to 50 percent, and I would submit th at the efforts of the members opposite would be well placed to use what influence they have with the Federal Government to get them to bring up their shar e of the financing to where the province now is. MR. DRIEDGER: Mr.

Chairman, to the Minister then, are the incentiv es at the present time the same for the towns in the Red River Valley in terms of attrac ting industry as the rest of the province or is th ere restric­ tion on it between the federal-provincial agreement? MRS. SMITH: Un der the current Federal-Provincial Enterprise Manitoba Agreement, what we call the ASEi programs, the Rural Small Enterprise Initiativ e programs, do require tha t ther e is freedom from natu­ ral di sasters which are predictable and flooding does come under that.

However, should the upgrading of the dikes be accomplished, tho se areas are not per­ manently labelled flood prone just because they happen to be on the flood plain. MR. DRIEDGER: Is the Minister then prepared to take a position with the Federal Government as well as the Provincial Government thr ough her depart­ ment to make th ese communities on an equal basis with the rest of the province in terms of competing for indus tries to esta blish ther e or are we just going to ad hoe leave them lay? MRS. SMITH: Mr.

Chairperson, I think the process tha t I outlined before tha t my colleague, the position he is taki ng with the Federal Government and the representations he is making to them are collegial position s, which I shar e, and he is acting on behalf of our government. I have written to him, giving my underst anding of the special problems of the Red River Valley. I underst and tha t they feel th ere are factors in the Red River Valley which are specific. When they have a flood, it tends to effect their eco­ nomic situation for upwards of two months

whereas flooding in other parts of the province tend to be two or th ree day affairs, tha t the y are on a major waterway where the y have not a lot of control over the water coming across the border from the south or some backing up of water from the Winnipeg dyk ing sys­ tem.

I suppose, the only area of action tha t's within thei r control is in the whole question of water man­ agement and not denuding all the uplands, in many cases, Crown lands of trees so that the runoff is very rapid, going along with reservoirs and so on, so tha t water is managed in a comprehensive way and to the extent that th ere is any option for th ose communities that their flood situation isn't aggravated by poor water management on the Canadian side.

Bu t, I have made the representations to my col­ league about the special problems of tha t area and he's taken those into account and I think the y were influential in his making the proposal and the rest of us agreeing to it, of the sh ift upwards from 45 to 50 percent coverage of the cost of further dyking. I am just a little unclear. I think that the province has also assu med the cost of maintenance of th ose di kes, which is another a portion of it. Is tha t right?

But we recognize that, for tho se communities, if they were not to be eligible for housing grants or in economic industrial dev elopment grants tha t it would be a very profound blow to thei r futures and I am doing all I can to make tho se particular vulnerabilities known and to promote the most constructive action possible so tha t they have a secure future. I th ink our department has shown its confide nce in the area by, in fact, giving some of our grants, not the ASEi Grants, but some of the other grants to tha t area. MR. DRIEDGER: Mr.

Chairman, I would just like to express the concern tha t some of the se communities are put in because here the y're faced with, unless they proceed with the upgrading and if no agreement is reached for the Federal Government in terms of accepting the extra 5 percent, with either accepting the 5 percent or else th ey cannot be in a position where they can entice any people into this.

It's sort of a dou ble-whammy situation for them and makes it extre mely difficult and much concern is being expressed by the municipal people along those lines and I don't know whether they have made representa­ tion to this Minister on this case or not, but most certa inly we're getting them boxed into a very uncom­ forta ble posit ion, especially in terms of tax dollars if they have to levy the 5 percent, plus the fact tha t they cannot go to any industry even if the y search out industries tha t would establish ther e.

They don't qual­ ify for the Federal-Provincial Incentive Program if I'm correct. 17 42 MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, I think I have ass ured the honourable members that the provincial level is doing what it can. The Federal Government has some responsibilities here, too. I submit tha t your energies · would be well spent at trying to sensitiz e our federal

Thursday, 22 April, 19 82 representati ves and the Federal Government to tho se same questions. We are doJng what we can from our position of influence. I guess none of us likes the idea of having to deal with federal cutbacks, but the y're a reality of life for the Provincial Govern ment and I guess the municipalities will have to deal with that as well. Now. ther e has been an enriched component of equalization in the distri bution of municipal monies this year.

If the extra tax load on tho se co mmunities because of dyke activit y puts them at a greater dis ad­ vantage, I think th ey can look to some kind of equali­ zation in subsequent years. The province can do some thi ngs to equal out the obl igations and to over­ come particularly difficult circumstances, but we're not in a position to do everything. I might add that I think the formula we're using is more favourable to the municipalities than what the members opposite were prepared to do, as far as I understand it.

I may be looking at the overall dyking charges rather than the specific circumstances of the Red River Valley. I ask the members opposite to rec­ ognize tha t I am not the Minister of Natural Res our­ ce�. I've taken a particular interest in tha t issue because I have vis ited those communities and I have listened carefully and tried very hard to understa nd their situation. I am prepared to keep discus sing the issue, if the members wish, but I really don't pretend to be as much on top of the det ail.

I can assure you though tha t I have made active representation to my colleagues on this issue and I will conti nue to do so in relation to the Federal Govern ment with in my area of influence. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Member for Morris. MR. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, first of all, I think on behalf of some of the officials down ther e, we should give some thank s to the govern ment and tho se Minis­ ters responsi ble for changing somewhat tha t formula. The Minister made some comment about equaliza­ tion, tha t maybe in future years tha t th ere are other ways of equalizing the economic dev elopment pros­ pect.

I am wonderi ng exactly what she meant by tha t? MRS. SMITH: Once again, Mr. Chairperson, this is in the direct responsibility area of the Minister of Munic­ ipal Affairs, but I recall when the quest ion of provin­ cial contri bution to municipal expenses was reviewed this year tha t ther e was some atte mpt to assist the poorer communities at the expense, I guess, of the richer communities, in other words, accomplish some progressive equalization. Tha t's what I was referring to. I do have some more information with regard to th ese ASEi grants. There is a firm in St.

Adolphe which did receive assistance for equipment, but not for building costs. Building costs could have been supported under the program if the elevation levels of the building were met, as est ablished by the Water Resou rces Board; in other words, if ther e were high enough foundations. I would like to examine the issue more, but it seems to me tha t this desi gnation of flood plain has been, how should I say, misinterpreted to the people whether intenti onally or unintentionally.

The whole point of the shar ed-cost program between the Federal and Provincial Governments to upgrade the dykes was to overcome the designation of the flood-prone area and somehow tha t concept has been activa ted recently, rather belated ly I would say. The time tha t ther e should have been a big fuss about tha t was when tho se programs were being revised and when the Federal Government cut back its level of support. I think we're into the stage of trying to over­ come the problem in the quickest and most fiscally responsible way that we can. MR. MANNESS: I would just like to place on the record, Mr.

Chairman, tha t, in fact, the former gov­ ernment was probably was also at that same stage. In fact, the y had not, as a group, sat around and made any det ermination whatsoever regarding tha t funding proportion as far as the building of the valley dykes. I think I'll leave my comments th ere. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Member for Emerson. MR. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have one other item tha t I would like to just bring up to some deg ree.

I am wonderi ng if the Minister is aware of the solar energy company tha t is assem bling pan­ els in the province at the present time and is tryi ng to get the same kind of activity? It's an American com­ pany tha t is set up; I believe the name was LPN. I wonder if the Minister could maybe help me out if she's aware of it? MRS . SMITH: Yes, I am aware. I think it has been in the Steinbach area. MR. DRIEDGER: I am just wondering whether I have the name of LPN, whether I have the right name on that? MRS. SM ITH: Mr. Chairperson, my memory is LVC is the name. MR.

DRIEDGER: I am just wondering if the Minister could possibly indicate what her department's posi­ tion is in terms of this company tha t is setting up. I believe a study was done on solar energy. The Corpo­ ration initially when the y came here and got act ivity going felt quite comforta ble coming into the province aside from the economic hardsh ips tha t everybody seems to be encountering to some degree.

It seems to be a negative position dev eloping from the depart­ ment or from government in terms of solar energy, especially in view of the report tha t was brought down - I think the report was done by UNI ES - and I'm wondering if the Minister has a copy of that report and what her position is, in terms of the industry tha t has been set up. 17 43 MRS . SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, I'm having to go by memory and I would like to check it out, but my memory is that a difference of opinion dev eloped in the department over the marketing methods of this company and further investigation is going into the proposal.

I think ther e was some fear that a pyramid st yle of marketing, which we are skeptical of, was going to be introd uced and ther e was some sugges­ tion tha t we hadn' t understood it carefully. So, when

Thursday, 22 April, 19 82 such a difference of opinion arises internally, we go back and review the situation to make sure that what­ ever decision we make is based on an accurate understan ding. MR. DRIEDGER: My underst anding, Mrs. Minister, is tha t to date this corporation or company has not received any funding from either Provincial or Federal Government. Is the Minister, by saying tha t ther e has been a revision or a change in position at this ti me, the y will possibly be consideri ng some funding for this corporation? MRS. SMITH: Mr.

Chai rperson, in our dealings with any company it's an open case until a final determ ina­ tion is made. In this case, th ere was a reject ion, but an appeal process exists. That's being followed, so the case is really still open and if the honourable member has any information or further questions, I know tha t members of my department would be more than happy to provide the information. If he has specific questions, other than whether or not the case is active or closed, I would be more than happy to get it for him. MR.

DRIEDGER: I have a further quest ion to the Min­ ister and tha t is regarding tha t report that came down on solar energy, the one that I referred to before, I believe it is the Minister of Energy tha t actually has his name on the study itself. I don't know whether it's fair to maybe he put the Minister on the spot, but I'm just wonderi ng, ther e seems to be some difference of opinion especially with this company who is quite successf ul across in the States ide and the y are having a bit of a different attitude with this report tha t's com­ ing out.

Is the Minister aware of this report and is it her intention to be supportive of that position? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, the Minister of Energy and Mines and myself work closely together. There are quite a few fede ral-provincial agreements and, ther efore, ways in which projects can be funded and sometimes we will have one of our technical people assisting with a study that happens to come out of a fund from their agreement. We are interested in alter­ nate energy as a priority area in our department, but ther e are also people in the Ministry of Energy and Mines tha t consider it.

Now, as I understa nd from the technical side, this proposal looked very good and you see, ther e's many stages in developing an ind us­ try. There's the technical end of it and then ther e's the transf orming that into a situation where you can finance and produce and market a prod uct. It is at the marketing end of the proposal that this case is bogged down, but as I say, it's still open and being looked at. So I think the study of the technical side of it came out very positive. MR. DRIEDGER: Mr.

Chairman, to the Minister, I understand that the company is prepared to or is att empting at this time to possibly set up a meeting with the Minister of Energy to dis cuss the impact of the report that came out. I am just wondering if the Minister would possibly, if given the opportun ity, atte nd when that meeting takes place.

There seems to be some, as indicated before, difference of opinion in terms of what the report is stating. 17 44 The company itself feel that the y have possi bly as much information regarding solar energy than possi­ bly our departmental people have, that the report indicates because the report to my underst anding is - and I might be wrong on that - but it's basically just compiling all the information tha t was available at the present time. I don't know whether ther e was any in-depth research done with the company tha t did this study.

At least, this is the position tha t this corpora­ tion or company is taking at the present time and th ey're hoping to meet with the Minister to dis cuss tha t aspect of it and if this Minister could make herself available, if possible, I think it might be enlightening for everybody. MRS . SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, I would be more than happy to do that.

The whole field of alternate energy is an area that I have a great deal of interest in and I appreciate tha t one of the thi ngs tha t's happening now is, because of our energy shortages and prob­ lems, a great many innovative people have got to work in developing alternate syste ms and tha t's well and good. We want to promote that kind of innovation. However, the technical analysis is, as I was saying earlier, one side of it.

Moving it into the prod uction and marketing produces other problems and I will certai nly endeavour to see at which level of the devel­ opment of this project the problems are and, as I think you can appreciate, when you identif y a problem, tha t doesn't really close the door either with a person. What you do is give feed back and say, either we as a government group of technical people need to know more about it, maybe we don't understa nd what you're presenting, or conversely, we have identified something that you have to go back and do a little more work on.

There's an ongoing dia logue but our role is to try to facilitate and encourage, not to put road blocks in the way. So I would encourage the honourable member. I will certainly undertake to either be present myself or have a representativ e ther e when tha t meeting occurs and I would encourage him to approach me at any time for further information. MR. CHAIRM AN: 2. (c )(1 )-the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. JOH NSTON: Mr. Chairman, I would like to pursue the one question on the program, the Interest Rate Assistance Program.

The Minister mentioned that the program was structu red on the basis of grant and loan and on the reason for the grant and loan part of it was tha t the economy would star t to have an upturn. All the projections for the economy to have an upturn, back last fall and in the first part of the year, was to happen in the second quarter of 1982 or the thir d quarter of 1982. The projections tha t are coming out from the Conference Board and many forecaster s at the present time is tha t the economy is going to remain the same for 1982 and the projects for it to increase in 1983 are not that good either.

Tha t being the circumstance with the new forecast that has come out, is the Minister now consideri ng tha t the qualifica­ tions for the program should be looked at imme­ diately from the point of view of changing it? Beca use

Thu rsday, 22 Aprll, 19 82 as I had mentioned previously, the fact tha t a person is in financial trouble and by going into this program will only accumulate more debt is not a desirable one. MRS. SMITH: Well, Mr. Chairperson, I think we'll look at it when the baby's five months old, not two months. I really don't th ink we're going to get very useful information at the early stage.

In terms Cif the overall economy, I think the point we've been trying to make here in Manitoba and at the Federal level, is tha t the economists make pred ictions assuming tha t most things stay unchanged but the whole philosophy tha t we have is that the economy is not a completely independent creature. It is influ­ enced by political decisions and right now, the key political decisions tha t from our prospective need to be made, tha t could make some difference, are deci­ sions tha t need to be made in Ottawa. No w, of course we're reviewing the situation and looking at the recent projections and all the rest.

We're also working on the political level to try to influ­ ence what the Conference Board is projecting. We are not, as a people, impotent to influence our economy, but.we have to believe that we can influence and then we have to organize so tha t we have the political capacity to do so. Now, our capacity here at the provincial level is just so big and you can be sure tha t all of us are working almost day and night to discover, refine and use whatever inst ruments are available to us.

I recognize tha t probably the unarticulated question of the hon­ ourable member was tha t maybe we're going to let some of the larger business people go down the dr ain because we've pitched our program too low. I submit tha t another possibility would have been if we had raised it higher, raised the parameters higher, and had a take-out so tha t the whole program got swallowed up in the first six months, because let's face it, most of the businesses cluster around the middle Size and we would have been irresponsible to desi gn a program tha t went way beyond our capacity to support.

If conditions continue to get worse, we are going to be looking beyond the emergency level of activity to see if th ere's something more basic and structural tha t we can do to alter the situa tion and I give my commitment to the honourable member. I'd welcome his ideas as to how tha t could be done and if he has any alternate projections, if he th inks he can design bette r criteria and can come up with the projections as to the cost and the implications on the budget and whatever, I would be more than happy to receive tha t input.

But for the moment we've gone on the best figures, the best projections, the best analysis tha t we have been able to command. MR. JO HNSTON: Mr. Chairman, the Minister keeps referring to the baby and the teeth and let's not thr ow the bathwater out, etc. It isn't a case of projecting what might happen; it's a case of fact of what is hap­ pening at the present ti me. The forecasts tha t I spoke of are ther e and it doesn't appear as if its going to be getting tha t much better this year. As a matter of fact, it's star tlhg to become worse.

The bankruptcies in the first four months of 1981 were 47 in business in Mani­ toba and in 1982, it's 111, tha t's 136 percent increase in business bankruptcies in the first four months of 1982.

Now the government has stated tha t the program the y are bringing in is to try and curb this situa tion and to help th ose tha t are in most dire need and the Ministers also added that the y would take a look at the balance of the program, but the fact is the number of businesses out ther e is known, the number of bank­ ruptcies t hat are happening are known and either the program has to be expanded so tha t it becomes of some use and, I might add, to handle the promises made by the government or - well, I'm not going to suggest a new program - I would suggest tha t the money tha t is being used in this program, if it is not going to do the job, then ther e is no sense developing a program tha t will not do the job.

You are better to put your money elsewhere. I would suggest the money should go into the mort­ gage program to put more dollars in people's pockets so tha t they will have more disp osable income and I don't know of a bette r way to help business than to have people with money in their pockets to spend to help support those businesses. I can't see where this program, as it presently st ands, is going to do any­ thing to help really curb the situation tha t is out ther e. I think the money could be bette r spent being put into people's pockets. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRM AN: Madam Minister. MRS . SMITH: Mr.

Chairperson, I am wonderi ng if the member opposite has been a convert to our approach to raising minimum wage to put more money in peo­ ple's pockets so tha t they could make expenditur es and sti mulate the economy. I am also somewhat con­ fused as to whether the member is calling for a bigger program so tha t more small businesses can be included or no program at all. We never claimed tha t this was going to alter the underlying struc tur al prob­ lems in the economy.

We said, it was emergency help; it's been designed as emergency help to give us time to get in place someth ing more basic if it is with in provincial capacity. The member is entitled to prefer another type of program or none at all. Tha t is his privilege, but for the time being, we are the people who have the right and the responsibility to design the programs we thi nk will best meet the current needs and tha t is what we are doing. 17 45 MR. JOHNS TON: Mr.

Chairman, the inference tha t I am in favour of the increase in the minimum wage to put money in people's pockets, I think, can be rev­ ersed from what the Minister says, her state ment in the House on the question that the in crease in the minimum wage would put money in people's pockets so that they would have more disposable income.

So, tha t being the case, if this program as it is at the present time and it is obviously not going to do much to help, if the Province of Saskatchewan could only find enough applications for about $22 0,000 worth of assistance and this province may get it up to 1 million or 1.5 million on th ose tha t qualify because the quali­ fications ar e such tha t you won't be able to spend all tha t much money, I would suggest tha t as the Minister believes, the same as she believes about the minimum wage, tha t the monies that are allotted to this program

Thursday, 22 April, 19 82 would be better off in the mortgage program to put disposable income into people's pockets. There are people out ther e tha t are not spending because they have got their mortgages doubled and that's hurting business probably more than anyth ing at the present time. MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, I guess at some point or other we have to discuss whose pockets we are putting money into. We have designed our programs for the homeowner, the small business person and the farmer to put money into the pockets of the people who are most vulnerable, least able to survive the current situation.

People with slightly larger mort­ gages, bigger farms and bigger businesses have a little more flexibility in their operations for the most part than the small person. Our program was designed specifically to give some temporary protection to tha t group of people. The member is concerned about comparing our experience to Saskatchewan. We in fact have many more small businesses; we have twice as many small businesses in Manitoba.

Eighty percent of the small businesses we have do come with in the size criteria of the program and ther efore we have confidence on the basis of the data tha t we have been able to collect tha t the program has been responsibly designed. We did not allocate $1 00 million to the program, nor did we allocate $1 million. We allocated in the neighbour­ hood of 23, 24, 25 million and we have designed the program to fit into tha t. MR. DEPUTY CHAIR MAN: 1.( c) - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR.

JOHNS TON: The program design to assist the small business and the Minister is saying tha t we have to keep monitoring and have to keep looking at it. There has been 839 requests and 99 applications; of the 14 applications tha t were reviewed and recom­ mended, half of th ose did not quality or were turned down. So, with the figures tha t we have in front of us at the present ti me, you can almost assume tha t out of the 99, th ere is going to be 50 tu rned down because half of them were turned down or maybe the re will be only 40 tu rned down.

The number of applications tha t are coming in and with the tur ndown tha t appears to be tak ing place because of the qualifications at the present time is not good. We will be looking at this, I ass ure you. The Minister will be looking at it and so will we, but I can assu re you that the program criteria at the present time is not such to really do that much benefit to curb interest rate problems for small busi­ ness in this province. I might say, Madam Minister or Mr.

Chairman, to the Minister tha t the promises tha t were made - and we have dwelled on that enough - and the fact is that the people out ther e are expecting someth ing. I have had a phone call already on this program and he's not getting any answer. One man said to me and I can give you the name. It was from Mr. Graham's constituenc y, but he said, if I don't know something pretty soon, with in the next th ree or four days, I am going to have to pack it up. There is an expecta ncy out th ere at the present time and obviously the program as it stands is not going to do it.

If it appears tha t you are not going to use all your money for this program at the present time and it appears as if you can't, maybe you should be looking at the criteria to raise it at the present time or change it so tha t more people can take a benefit from it. MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, I can sympath ize with the unease of the member, but from no program to some program tha t isn't fully mature is the differ­ ence and we have some program. It is in its very early stages of dev elopment, not of dev elopment of the criteria, but of implementation.

It would be most pre­ mature on the basis - I don't know what the member opposite understands about sta tisti cal samples, but we don' t have a large enough sample yet to make sense. It would be irresponsible to alter a program which is based on a statistical analysis at this stage. We don't have a sample th at gives us reliable informa­ tion. What we have is an early bird sample which may not turn out to be typical on the long pull. If it is, we will alter the criteria accordi ngly, but it just is prema­ ture to do it at this point. MR. JOHNSTON: I just have one more question on this.

The question I would ask then, tha t the Minister is insisting tha t it's premature and the Minister is not ta king into the whole situa tion the fact tha t the pro­ gram obviously as it's starting out is appearing as if it's not going to be of much help. The sta tistics and fore­ casts tha t we're getting from the forecasters in this country are such tha t the economic situation is not going to increase in Canada, dur ing this year.

So, we have two bases of sta tistics at the present time tha t says tha t the criteria of the program should possibly be changed, or should be changed or at least start preparing for it to be changed, or looking at it more closely than you are, because the program is not doing what it's supposed to do. If the program spent the whole $6 million quite frankly, Mr. Chairman, into the small business under this criteria tha t it's laid on right now, it's not going to do very much to change the economy of the Province of Manitoba.

Therefore, you're going to have a pro­ gram anyway that is not going to be effect ive and not going to be used to the extent it's going to be used, so basically you should have your money elsewhere. That's up to the government. Or, the government ha s to make a decision to change the qualifications of the program now or star t looking at it now, because of the statis tics tha t we have in front of us. MRS. SMITH: Mr.

Chairperson, I can see how the honourable member found it very difficult to dev elop and launch a program because he has got himself so frightened tha t the thing isn't going to work out tha t he's afraid to start it and because it won't do every­ thing, the fact it might do someth ing is somehow a good enough reason to not do anything at all or to discredit it. We believe in building programs, planning them. We've identified a need; we know it's an emergency-type program while we have time to add ress the structural problems that are within a pro­ vincial government's capacity to deal with.

Not all the economic structural problems are within our capac­ ity, but we are going to be working on tho se more basic problems. 17 46

Th ursday, 22 April, 19 82 The emergency program gives some breathing time to the smallest, most vulnerable groups; tha t's all it was intended to do. The criteria are based on the best data from all tho se hard-working, loyal civil servants tha t supported you when you were in office that we have called on and we have applied the best analysis we can come up with. We have asked the banks and the financial institu tions for the best data that the y have. On the basis of tha t, we have developed a responsible program which is a best-guess design.

The desi gn will evolve as experience is accumulated, but it would be crazy, it would be irresponsible to take the first small sample and precipitately alter a care­ fully developed plan. If we are going to be able to ease the criteria and include a wider group of people after we get initial experience, we will be delig hted, but it would be irresponsible to do th at now and leave our­ selves vulnerable for more resources than we've got. We've made a careful analysis and design of this pro­ gram and we'll st and by it; we will review it; no pro­ gram is perfect . MR. JOH NSTON: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister said last night tha t probably the largest benefit or the best benefit of this program is that th ey will get knowledge of people who are looking for assistance and tha t the y will be able to go out and contact tho se people, tho se companies, and find tha t if the y just have manage­ ment assistance or advice on how to operate their business during the present ti mes. the economic ti mes, tha t could prove to be the most beneficial part of the program. The Minister has got with in her department the small business group tha t's in this department.

She mentioned another group tha t would be starting up, I guess, within this department to assist because of the economic ti mes. They now have the applications tha t have come in on this program or the enquiries of this program of people to call on. There is going to be a tremendous amount of people to call on to begin with and the Minister is quite right when she says tha t the previous government was not going into a program of monies tha t would not solve the problem in this respect. The best thing to be doing is to give advic e to the se people.

Most of it is lack of knowledge about man­ agement because of the economic conditions and ther efore, the decision of the previous government was to put the money into a mortgage program th at would put more money in people's pockets and give management advice to the small businesses tha t need it because in many cases, you are not going to be able to assist under this program. It's basically manage­ ment problems because the businesses are so small. Why go into a program tha t is not going to solve the problem?

The businesses of $365,000 or over are the employers in this province, the bigge st employers of the small business setup. I can assure you tha t the reason for not moving into it is because disposable income to people as the government agrees with the increase in minimum wage, is the best way to go. Mr. Speaker, I think the Minister has to start think ­ ing very seriously about this program at the present time from the point of view of getting the best value for the dollar. MRS. SMITH: Mr.

Chairperson, one point tha t the honourable member and his comparison of our pro­ gram with Saskatchewan seems to have missed , is tha t the maximum grant under their program is $500 per applicant. The maximum grant under ours is $6, 000, which is a considerably bigger boost to the person in difficulty. The advantage of the managerial consulting is not just to advise, but to help build in the managerial skills which enable the entrepreneur to stand on his own feet or her own feet, which I'm sure the honourable member opposite will agree is a desir ­ able goal and which we agree is a desirable goal.

With regard to mortgage money being a better way to spend the public dollar. some mortgage monies can find their way into the pockets of the most needy and then get spent on the basic necess ities. But other ways of giving assistance with mortgage money have a rather dis couraging way of finding its way into the pockets of the banks or the developers. People who don't have enough money to get a mortgage in the first place don't get any benefit from it.

Now we've attempted to deal with the householder's problem with our interest rate relief which is capped; it's for mortgage amounts up to a certain amount so that it's the person of modest or low income who will have the most benefit from it -just a minute now, I've lost the other point I was going to make -tha t combined with the Rent Control Program we've protected , we're moving to protect the people of middle and lower income who are really finding the current economic difficulties eating into the necessities that they can purchase.

Not into just the extra things which some of the rest of us might have to give up. I don't think we've ever claimed tha t the se emergency-type programs were going to get at the basic problems but they help to maintain the morale and the financial integrity of the most vulnerable members of our society while we put in place some of the stro nger, longer-term programs. 17 47 MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order ple ase, order please. The recorder is having trouble picking up the conversation because of the side conversations so could you keepyour side conversations to a minimum? MR. JOHNS TON: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I just have one more thing to ask the Minister. If she does not agree tha t the program in Manitoba is $3,0 00, not $6,000; the ot her $3,0 00 is more debt, more debt for the person who qualifies. The Saskatchewan program is up to $500, 000, its a lesser amount of money but the y go up to $500, 000 and they can take in a few more people. MRS. SM ITH: Mr. Chairperson, obviously when we desig ned the program, we looked at all the options and we did look at the Saskatc hewan one.

We had a choice of whether to go for the higher ceiling and the smaller amount or to go with what we have recom­ mended, the lower ceiling on size and the larger amount. It's a split amount. We're putting in enough money to cover the program to assume that we aren't going to get 1 DO-percent repayment. Again, I don't think it's fair to say tha t we're loading someone with debt if we're, in fact, giving them a grant tha t may enable them to weat her the immediate st orm, and the y're not going to have to pay interest for 24

• - . - Thursday, 22 April, 19 82 months; the y're not going to have to provide any security; so that the y are getting a better deal than they would get if they went to one of the existing financial institut ions. It's a balanced type of assistance. Again, the program is desig ned to give emergency help while we work out some of the longer-term solu­ tions, but I submit once again, that the main improvements could come from a change in federal policy and we'll be using a lot of effort to see if we can influence change at tha t level. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 2. The Member for St. Norbert. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, we'll see whether anyone actually qualifies under this so-called emer­ gency program. Mr. Chairman, the Minister has talked about the importance of arranging for people to have more disposable income. Is she prepared , Mr. Chair­ man, in view of the effects of an increase in the sales tax of two or th ree points, the effect that would have on retai l sales, the loss of disposable income by the residents of this province, is she prepared to recom­ mend to the Minister of Finance that, in fact, the sales tax not only not be increased, but be reduced in order to spur on the economy? MRS . SMITH: Mr.

Chairperson, the members oppo­ site have been playing around with what the y think is going to be in our Budget for weeks and weeks now. Our commitment on the side of raising money is that we raise it in the fairest possible way and tha t we distri bute it in the fairest possible way. We'll be look­ ing for a combination, if you can underst and, tha t taxes are not only to be looked at one tax by itself, but the total package of taxes and then the impact on the different groups and mem bers of the community.

Now tha t's the kind of package tha t we will be design­ ing, and I urge the member to be pa tient until the Budge t is brought down, and expect tha t what we will be proposing is a balanced package, a progressive package. I just wanted to update, I told you tha t this Inter est Rate Relief Program was evo lving day to day. We've now got some confirmation tha t of the recommenda­ tions th at have been completed for the Board next week, 14 of them are being recommended for appro­ val and 7 rejected; now tha t's a 66-percent acceptance at the current stage.

Now, I can't say whether the board is going to support tha t. As I told you, the program is in its early stages of evolution but th ose data don't suggest a disaster area. MR. DEPUTY CHAIR MAN: The hour being 4:30, I'm interrupting the proceed ings for Private Members' Hour. The Committee will reconvene at 8:0 0 p.m. tonight SUPPLY - HEAL TH MR. CHAIRMAN, Jerry T. Storie (Flin Flon): Continu­ ing with the Estimates of Health, Item No. 4. Mental Health Servi ces, Item No. 4. (a)

(3) Profess ional Training. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. 17 48 MR. L.R. (Bud) SHER MAN (Fort Garry): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When Committee dis cussions were interru pted yesterday for Private Members' Hour, I had just been exploring a question with the Minister of the projected first year enrollments in the psychiatric nursing schools and psych-nurse training courses at Brandon and Selkirk for September of the coming year, September 1982. The figures that he had given me, which are encouraging looking figures, are 40 for Br andon and 90 for Selkirk and -(I nterjection)- MR.

DESJA RDIN S: No, no, 50 for Selkirk; 90 altogether. MR. SHER MAN: Oh, it's 50 for Selkirk. Well tha t takes care of the problem, Mr. Chairman, it's 50 for Selkirk. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: (a) -pass; 4. (

b) Forensic Services; 4. (b )

(1) Salaries-the Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHER MAN: Und er Forensic, Mr. Chairman, ther e is one additional SMY requested and a difference in the salary appropriation, which may well account for that of some $27, 000.00. I wonder if the Minister could descri be the salary difference, what it accounts for and the additional SMY, who he or she is? What par­ ticular function will they perform? MR. DESJA RDINS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, tha t's right. We went from 9 to 10 SMY's. The additional staff is a social worker position this year.

The incumbent has been employed on a term basis for the past year and her assistance to in­ patients and to out-patients has been a great advan­ tage to the Forensic Service and the added fund is to take care of tha t salary and also the normal increment of the whole 1 O staff man years. MR. SHERM AN: Mr. Chairman, the Minister descri bed earlier the breakdown of the establishment insofar as tho se positions at the Winnipeg Psychiatric Instit ute and the Eden Mental Health Centre are concerned, where ther e are such positions that exist for payment purposes in this department and under this appropri­ ation.

Would he just review that at this juncture? There were at one time I think, two former employees of the Winnipeg Psychiatric Institute who were seconded to the Health Sciences Centre and paid from this appropriation and th ere were two staff posi­ tions at the Eden Mental Health Centre that were paid from this appropriation. Has that situation remained the same? MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, if the Honourable Member for Fort Garry will keep in mind, this has cert ainly noth ing to do with Forensic. We're back to Administation. We have passed 4.

We could, as I said, certainly be flexible, but at least we should ta lk about thi s on the Community Psychiatric Service or under Institution, where we'll cover Eden, but this has noth ing to do with Forensic. MR. SHERM AN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't mind dealing with them under a different appropriation, but

Th ursday, 22 April, 19 82 accord ing to my records the SMY's th at I've just men­ tioned were paid from the Forensic Services Appro­ priation, however tha t may now have changed and they may be paid under a different appropriation. If so, certainly we can discuss them at tha t ti me. But I wonder if the Minister could just clarify tha t point for me. The Salaries Item under Forensic Services has heretofore included the SMYs tha t I've just mentioned. MR. DESJAR DINS: There is a slight misundersta nd­ ing, Mr. Chairman. I think that it was the appropriation that we just finished a while ago in the Administration.

Also paid from the appropriation one staff member formerly with the Winnipeg Psychiatric Institute but now seconded to the Health Sciences Centre; and two staff located at the Eden Mental Health, but tha t's under Administration tha t we just passed - nothing to do with Forensic - but you're right, it wasn't charged to Eden , it was charged under here. MR. SHERM AN: The Member for Fort Garry. M R. DESJAR DINS: Oh, excuse me, I have a note. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. DESJAR DINS: I think I can correct that. I under­ sta nd now why the Member for Fort Garry asked tha t.

The later th ree previously, the thr ee tha t I mentioned last year I guess, appeared in the appropriation for Forensic Services, tha t's true. Tha t's correct. MR. SHER MAN: Mr. Chairman, thank you. I under­ sta nd tha t distri bution and organization now except for one of the two former employees of the Winnipeg Psychiatric Institute, one of them has been accounted for in the comments of the Minister, but ther e were two who had been seco nded to the Health Sciences Centre and paid for under the Forensic Services appropriation.

I under sta nd tha t procedu re now has been moved up under Administration, but he has only referred to one such staff man year - two at Eden - but one relative to the old Winnipeg Psychiatric Insti­ tute, so one is st ill unaccounted for. MR. DESJAR DINS: I think this is a little difficult for me because it was under the old format and I'm not too familiar with tha t. I think this might sati sfy the honourable member.

The arrangement made previously was when one of our staff left, he would be replaced by a staff from the Health Sciences Centre and I am saying, the informa­ tion tha t I have, this is what happened for one. That will account for tha t one staff man year mentioned. MR. CHAIR MAN: 4. (b )(1) -pass-t he Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERM AN: Mr. Chairman, the Minister has referred to the additional staff man year in this branch, which will be a social worker, added presum­ ably to Adult Forensic Services rather than Children's Forensic Services, is tha t correct or did he already designate the precise

section of the service? If he did I missed it. It's a social worker worker added to Fore- nsic Services, I underst and that, but is tha t to Adult Forensic or Children's Forensic? MR. DESJAR DINS: Adult, but it's somebody tha t was th ere at least part of the time as a term person doing the same work, but it is with the Adult Forensic Services. MR. SHERM AN: Mr. Chairman, do we st ill have the same complement of psychiatrists and psychologists in Forensic or has the mix changed in any way? MR. DESJAR DINS: I'm told tha t it is pretty well the same.

Now, the di rector full ti me is a psychiatris t, ther e is a vacant position psychiatrist, ther e are four half days each week and they need correctional insti­ tution pyschiatris t and a full-time ecologist and a full­ time social worker and an ad ministrative secretary. Those are the nine. MR. SHER MAN: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister review for the committee the workload status for 1981 in Forensic, both with respect to outpatients and inpa­ tient s and the work at Head ingley, just so I can have the comparative figures for '81 as against some pre­ vious years.

As a second part of that question, am I correct in assuming that Children's Forensic also comes under this branch or does he want to dis cuss Children's Forensic under (

c) Children's Psych iatric Services? MR. DESJAR DINS: This is complete Forensic Servi­ ces, ad ult and children under this. The workload for the Adult Forensic Services: Forensic Outpatient - and I'll give you 1978-79-80-81 -the Forensic Outp a­ tient 1978, 110; '79, 99; '80, 106; '81, 97. The For ensic Inpatients ad ult 93, 111, 75, 92. Headingley 129, 271 , 300 and 312 and I hope the y're all inpatients or we're in trouble. I guess I might as well give the Children's Forensic Service staff: the staff is a psychiatrist full time, psychologist and a secretary.

In addition ther e are two psychiatries paid by sess ional fees, each work th ree half days each week. Would the Minister like me to share the information on workload for Children's Forensic now? MR. SHERM AN: Yes, please. MR. DESJAR DINS: Referrals through courts and probation services: Psychiatric '78, 203; '79, 150; '80, 159; '81, 116. Psychological 55, 24, 83, 72. Psychiatric and psychological, maybe the member knows