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June 16, 1981

32nd Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Hansard Transcripts

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

AUTOMOTIVE EXPOSITION

WELCOME TO GOVERNOR OF MICHIGAN

RENTAL HOUSING

REVISED STATUTES OF ONTARIO

ORAL QUESTIONS

VAUGHAN LAND USE

ASTRA/RE-MOR

TORONTO EAST GENERAL HOSPITAL

CENTENNIAL COLLEGE

HELICOPTER FLIGHT

PLACEMENT OF JUVENILE WARDS

CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL OF EASTERN ONTARIO

WHITCHURCH-STOUFFVILLE WATER QUALITY

BANKERS' SCHOOL

WHITCHURCH-STOUFFVILLE WATER QUALITY

HUDAC WARRANTIES

PETITION

WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION

REPORTS

STANDING COMMITTEE ON REGULATIONS AND STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS

STANDING COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

REGIONAL MUNICIPALITY OF HAMILTON-WENTWORTH AMENDMENT ACT

MILK AMENDMENT ACT

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY AMENDMENT ACT

ELECTION AMENDMENT ACT

AGE OF RETIREMENT ACT

TRIBUTES TO BARRY'S BAY RESIDENTS

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON NOTICE PAPER

ORDERS OF THE DAY

TORONTO ISLANDS AMENDMENT ACT

POWER CORPORATION AMENDMENT ACT

The House met at 2 p.m.

Prayers.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

AUTOMOTIVE EXPOSITION

Hon. Mr. Grossman: Mr. Speaker, earlier today the Premier (Mr. Davis) and I officiated at the opening of the first SITEV America international automotive exposition, which is being held this week at the Canadian National Exhibition Coliseum.

This world-class exhibition is the North American equivalent of SITEV Europe, which takes place annually in Geneva, Switzerland. Unlike the European show, however, SITEV America is much more than a conventional trade fair. It will focus on the exchange of information and technology, and it will serve as a forum for auto parts manufacturers from around the world to meet for discussions on joint ventures, licensing arrangements, partnerships and opportunities for establishing production facilities.

More than 200 manufacturers of vehicles and parts have gathered in Toronto from around the world. Industry representatives from Europe, Japan, South America and the United States will be spending the next three days with our manufacturers, learning about the technology Ontario firms have to offer. In addition, industrial commissioners from 27 of Ontario's municipalities will be attending the exhibition to make direct contact with potential investors.

SITEV has gained an international reputation as a meeting place for key decision-makers in the automotive sector. By bringing the world auto market and industry to Ontario for the first time, we are offering our parts manufacturers an opportunity to identify and follow up on joint ventures and licensing arrangements, to increase their sales to offshore manufacturers and to learn about and acquire new technology. Further, we are offering Ontario's industrial commissioners an opportunity to promote their communities as favourable investment locations.

In addition to the opening of SITEV America, this week marked another major event in Ontario's automotive sector. Yesterday, Ford of Canada officially opened its $533-million Essex engine plant two years ahead of schedule. The plant will manufacture fuel-efficient V-6 engines to be used in many of Ford's 1982 model cars and trucks. This facility, together with the adjacent Essex aluminum casting plant, is already providing employment for 1,285 people just at the start, and the company will meet its undertaking to manufacture 1.5 million engines over five years.

As the members are well aware, our government was most proud to agree to supplement federal assistance by contributing $28 million to the cost of this project and making those jobs available for the auto workers in Essex.

Mr. Nixon: That's just like the minister.

Hon. Mr. Grossman: The Premier has told me that all four Liberal members from the area were in the front row at the official opening yesterday. He indicated that the four members did not tell all those auto workers that the Liberal Party was opposed to the grant. He also indicated that the members were there as proud as can be, telling them it was just great. The member should have brought a copy of the debates from the assembly when the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Smith) opposed them. He probably left them in his office. Anyway, I hope the member had a good day.

These initiatives, bringing the world auto market to Ontario manufacturers and directly supporting major new production facilities, are examples of our government's commitment to auto workers in this province as well as our confidence in the long-term success of that great industry in Ontario.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, I will not add to the opening. Yesterday in Windsor was a very significant event. I thoroughly enjoyed it; I enjoyed the four members opposite, and I want to tell their colleagues just how enthusiastically they applauded when the Premier of this great province made his brief observations of a nonpartisan, constructive nature. In fact, they led the standing applause at the conclusion of my remarks. I want to --

Interjection.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Listen, the member for Essex South (Mr. Mancini) said as he was leaving, "Great job, Mr. Premier." I do not know what that meant, but anyway I appreciated it; I was delighted. I shared the credit with them, Mr. Speaker; I made that abundantly clear. But that is not why I am on my feet.

WELCOME TO GOVERNOR OF MICHIGAN

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, it is with great pleasure, and it is related to the event of an hour or so ago, that I recognize and introduce to other members of this Legislature the very distinguished governor of our largest state trading partner in the United States, Governor William G. Milliken of Michigan.

Mr. T. P. Reid: Who is that masked man with him?

Hon. Mr. Davis: I want members to know that seated to the right of Governor Milliken is a man who will not be introduced to members of the assembly, the deputy minister in the Premier's office, who happens to have as his roots of origin the city of Windsor. That is why he is in the gallery. He is also a Detroit Tigers fan, I have to say, and a supporter of Michigan University.

Mr. Mancini: Is he a Tory?

Hon. Mr. Davis: No. He is very nonpartisan. He looked great in one of those commercials, but he is nonpartisan.

Governor Milliken was born in Traverse City in Michigan and is a graduate of a little-known university in the eastern part of the United States, called Yale. I point out to members of the House that Governor Milliken is in his thirteenth year as governor of that great state, which makes him, still at a very young age, the longest-serving governor in the history of the state of Michigan. Despite the fact that he is still under 50 years of age -- well, not quite under -- he is the longest-serving governor of that great state.

Governor Milliken was elected in 1970, 1974 and 1978, and is thinking of what he is going to do in 1982. He is past chairman of the Republican Governors' Association, the Midwestern Governors' Conference and the National Governors' Conference. He currently serves on the executive committee of the National Governors' Conference, and during February of this year he very kindly invited me to join with the governors of the Great Lake states to discuss some matters of mutual concern related to air pollution, water quality, et cetera.

It was really his very kind invitation that led us to interrupt the campaign in the latter part of February or early March to go to the governors' conference in Washington to give us a little change of pace.

The governor and I also share, as do all members of the House, a continuing concern with the automotive industry. We are sharing our concerns and our experience, and we have agreed to share any information or research documentation on the issue of acid rain. I think it is also fair to tell members of the House that Governor Milliken has spent some time in this province this morning, just outside the great city of Kingston, viewing what is without question the world's foremost intermediate-capacity transit system available anywhere.

I am very hopeful that the excellent relationships that exist between our province and that state, and between the governor of that state and the Premier of this province, will continue for the many years that are ahead of both of us in our areas of political responsibility. Mr. Speaker, it is a great pleasure to welcome the governor to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

Mr. Ruprecht: On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker: The minister of expensive housing had made this House a promise --

Mr. Speaker: Order. There was another statement, apparently.

Hon. Mr. McMurtry: Mr. Speaker, I have a brief statement.

2:10 p.m.

Mr. Riddell: Mr. Speaker, do you mean to say his statement takes precedence over a point of privilege?

Mr. Speaker: You are absolutely right. Mr. Ruprecht.

RENTAL HOUSING

Mr. Ruprecht: On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker: On June 8, the Minister of Housing (Mr. Bennett) made us a promise. He told us he would make public how many units would be built under the Ontario rental construction loan program in the Metropolitan Toronto area. Hansard reads: "I will be glad to get the exact figures as of today and to report back to the House tomorrow."

Eight days have now passed and we on this side have not yet received those figures. I want to ask the minister when he will make these numbers public.

REVISED STATUTES OF ONTARIO

Hon. Mr. McMurtry: Mr. Speaker, at two o'clock this afternoon I attended on His Honour the Lieutenant Governor of Ontario with the commissioners for revising the Statutes of Ontario to report the completion of the preparation of the Revised Statutes of Ontario, 1980. The roll was then deposited with the Clerk of the House as provided by the Statutes Revision Act, 1979.

I am recommending to the Lieutenant Governor in Council that August 1 be named as the date on which the Revised Statutes of Ontario, 1980, will take effect. Copies of the publication will be available for distribution by the Queen's Printer starting tomorrow.

In conclusion, I wish to acknowledge and recognize the dedicated efforts of our legislative counsel in relation to the publication of the Revised Statutes of Ontario, 1980.

ORAL QUESTIONS

VAUGHAN LAND USE

Mr. Smith: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Agriculture and Food regarding the Vaughan land situation.

The minister will recall that the member for York North (Mr. Hodgson) stated in the House that he was the one who made the call the minister thought might have come from the Minister of Housing (Mr. Bennett). He will recall the member said he met with certain land owners who were listed and with Mr. John Dewar, the planning consultant and so on. They asked that the member call the ministry to have things re-examined. He said he spoke to Mr. David Fraser, chairman of the York regional planning committee, who asked the same thing, and then he phoned the minister. Is that not right? Unfortunately, it is wrong.

I ask the minister to consider the following. The meeting the member for York North had with Mr. John Dewar was in November 1978. Mr. David Fraser, to whom the member allegedly spoke, was no longer the regional planning committee chairman because he had been defeated in the municipal elections of 1978. Therefore, the conversation could not have been after then. Mr. Fraser says it was not after then.

Since both conversations occurred in November 1978 approximately, and since the present Minister of Agriculture and Food was not the minister until late August 1979, can the minister explain, and will he undertake to get an explanation for this House, why the member for York North, a good constituency man, would have waited almost one full year after being requested to talk to the Ministry of Agriculture and Food about the problem before contacting the minister?

Hon. Mr. Henderson: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is suggesting that I go to another member and see what he did for a year. There is no way. I have answered the honourable member.

Mr. Smith: Since the Minister of Agriculture and Food seems to prefer his version of stonewalling to actually enlightening this House --

Hon. Mr. Henderson: Mr. Speaker, with all due respect --

Mr. Mancini: What do you call it?

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mr. Smith: Since the minister prefers his version of stonewalling on this matter rather than helping to provide the House with an explanation for what seems, on the face of it, to be a preposterous story by the member for York North, and since the minister refuses to get the facts for this House, does he still stick to the story he told the press on June 11, that he received a written message from his staff advising that there had been a call from "Housing," that he did not return or answer the call, that he did not talk to anybody, but just took it as a signal that he ought to send the member for Elgin (Mr.

McNeil) out to look at some land in the town of Vaughan? Does the minister stick to that story?

Hon. Mr. Henderson: The Leader of the Opposition has given a good explanation. There are no changes from what he has just said.

Mr. Cassidy: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Is the minister trying to say that there is no explanation at all, or is he saying that there is an explanation but he will not provide it to the House because he believes he is not required to answer now that the government has a majority? Does the minister have no concept of accountability to this Legislature on behalf of the people of Ontario?

Hon. Mr. Henderson: Mr. Speaker, it is easy to see that the leader of the third party -- I will not say it of the leader of the Liberal Party -- has now fallen into the pit that he really does not want to understand what we have said. I have answered him fully on many occasions.

Mr. Smith: Does the minister honestly believe that any person in Ontario with even a shred of sanity remaining would believe that out of the clear blue sky the minister received a message saying, "Housing phoned today," whereupon, not knowing the topic, he did not return the call, he did not speak to anyone in his ministry, but simply decided to send the member for Elgin out in the dead of winter to look at some land in the town of Vaughan to see whether it might be possible to withdraw the Ministry of Agriculture and Food's objection?

Is the minister prepared to have us believe that he would have been inspired, perhaps with a message from heaven, to send the member for Elgin out in wintertime to look at land in Vaughan? Did no one ask him to do that?

Will the minister give us an answer that does not strain the credulity of the people of Ontario?

Hon. Mr. Henderson: The honourable member knows all the answers. Let him think. The people out there know.

An hon. member: Know what?

Hon. Mr. Henderson: The people in Ontario know. They have shown that in the past.

ASTRA/RE-MOR

Mr. Smith: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations, who has said that he has never seen the file on Astra/Re-Mor and does not intend to read the file on the Astra/Re-Mor matter.

Will the minister inform us whether he has read at least a

summary of his ministry documents? Will he tell us whether he has read the transcripts of the hearings of the standing committee on administration of justice in January as his predecessor, the present Minister of Community and Social Services (Mr. Drea), did? Has the minister read the Bimonthly Reports I sent over to him and familiarized himself with the allegations concerning the Ontario Securities Commission?

There are three questions: Has the minister read a

summary of the file on Astra/Re-Mor, if not the file itself? Has he read the transcripts of the justice committee? Has he read the Bimonthly Reports regarding the OSC?

Hon. Mr. Walker: Mr. Speaker, the interesting thing is that the member across the way thinks the Astra/Re-Mor file is one little file about half an inch thick and that anyone could read it. If he would just go back to the reports of the day, he would realize that there are 48 file drawers of evidence that were brought in, not just one file. There are probably hundreds of files when one measures them out. I suggested the other day that if I attempted to read those, it would take me five years just to thumb through them all, let alone begin to read them.

2:20 p.m.

Mr. Smith: Will the minister not answer the three questions I asked? I ask the minister when he rises to his feet again to actually answer the three questions, which is whether he has read a

summary of the ministry documents, the transcripts of the January justice committee and the Bimonthly Reports that I have sent him. He might at least have the courtesy of answering those questions yes or no. Surely he knows whether he has read them.

May I also ask whether the minister has read the ministry files relating to Argosy and Co-op?

Hon. Mr. Walker: I have not read from stem to stern the entire Argosy file; I have been briefed on the Argosy matter. I and a good many people across the way here have had similar types of briefings. I have been briefed on the Argosy file; I have been briefed on the Re-Mor matter; I have been briefed on the Astra matter; I have been briefed on the CHSO matter. I have not read the files from start to finish.

In the case of the Re-Mor/Astra situation there are 48 file drawers, enough boxes and file drawers of information to fill the entire gallery two or three deep, and the member is suggesting he wants me to start reading that. I think the member should have a heart.

Mr. Cassidy: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Can the minister explain why it is that his ministry has been prepared to make elaborate changes in the administration of the Mortgage Brokers Act and the other acts that affect Re-Mor to prevent people from being bilked in the future in the way they were with the Re-Mor affair, but the ministry has not been prepared to act with comparable diligence to ensure that the people who were bilked are compensated?

Why is it that the minister insists on seeing no evil, hearing no evil and sensing no evil when it comes to the losses of those investors, when he has indicated by means of the administrative reforms he announced last month that serious mistakes were made in the ministry?

Hon. Mr. Walker: Mr. Speaker, I am very glad that the leader of the third party has brought up a number of the administrative reforms that we instituted. Throughout this process, as I indicated to some extent yesterday, but not fully, there have been some required changes that we have identified. We have changed a number of the administrative procedures involved within our ministry.

In addition to that, there is the question of whether there would be any compensation. As the honourable member knows, that hinges on the matter of negligence. But, in spite of that issue of negligence and how that is dealt with in the courts, where the proceedings are currently in view, we are in the process of entertaining as many discussions as we possibly can with federal officials to see whether there is any area in which we can accommodate the investors who lost their money in these investments.

Mr. Smith: The minister apparently has not bothered to read the transcripts of the justice committee hearings in January, which I think at least his predecessor had the decency to do. Will the minister therefore take it upon himself to read those transcripts?

Will he try to resolve for us the problem of the conflicting testimony in which the registrar and assistant registrar of mortgage brokers in his ministry said the Ontario Securities Commission had offered them no hard evidence to help them in turning down the Re-Mor application, while the OSC investigation counsel testified that he gave Messrs. Weinstein and Baird evidence that would have been sufficient to justify a refusal, and Weinstein and Baird then said that, had they had that evidence, they would have refused? There is a real conflict in testimony there.

Will the minister undertake to read the transcripts of the justice committee before continuing to stonewall in front of this House?

Hon. Mr. Walker: The interesting thing is in the conflicts of testimony. There is no doubt there have been some conflicts in testimony between what the registrar would have to say and what the Ontario Securities Commission would have to say as it related to one particular aspect, as I recall. But I will --

Mr. Nixon: There is not one conflict; there is more than one.

Hon. Mr. Walker: If the member wants to continue with the answer, let him go ahead. I would like to finish with this answer if I could.

They were talking about matters that came to their attention some two years in advance. There is no question that from time to time people do have conflicts in testimony. As a lawyer who has practised in the courts, as a person who has practised in the courts, I have seen many conflicts among people. Perhaps the member has not had that opportunity, but he probably would have noticed if he had that opportunity that there are many conflicts among people who have even seen the same kind of accident.

Mr. Smith: Faulty memory.

Hon. Mr. Walker: It is faulty memory. There is no question that there is faulty memory.

Mr. Smith: That is what Nixon said too.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Hon. Mr. Walker: As a matter of fact, in reading the transcript I was particularly impressed by the faulty memory displayed by the members of the committee who gave a great argument on the very day the member for Sudbury East (Mr. Martel), had to come into the committee and say: "This is not what the committee agreed on yesterday. We agreed on something else." I think the member for Sudbury East will recall that.

That there were even some problems with members remembering from one day to the next whether something was awry or not suggests to me, and the member may not accept the fact, that ordinary people have failings from time to time in respect of the faulty memory on which the member made some comment. That is something the member should keep in mind. People are human.

TORONTO EAST GENERAL HOSPITAL

Mr. Cassidy: Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Health about the problems in the hospital system which contributed to the difficulties at the Toronto East General Hospital which were reported yesterday.

Is the minister aware that the report on the Toronto East General Hospital made specific references to such problems as understaffing, poor physical facilities, inadequate equipment, the inappropriately small laboratory space for the blood bank, the overcrowding of the emergency department. the shortcomings of the physical plant of the emergency department and to the fact that on average there are about 130 patients in acute treatment beds who should have been in long-term care?

Will the minister not agree that these problems at the Toronto East General Hospital were the direct result of underfunding and cutbacks from the Ministry of Health? Will he also not agree that, if those problems had not been present at the Toronto East General Hospital, the hospital would have had a much better chance of resolving its problems and difficulties?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: Mr. Speaker, in the four or five months that the review committee was at work, and considering that they met with about 150 people -- including one or two of the member's colleagues, if my memory serves me correctly -- I think there was ample opportunity and scope in the terms of reference that these three gentlemen had to reach that conclusion if the facts supported the allegations.

The fact of the matter is they did not find that. What they did find was that basically the root of the problem, and page 57 at the bottom sums it all up, is: "In the opinion of the review committee, this hospital has suffered from the absence of appropriate management practices for a number of years."

When the member talks about the physical plant, he will find in the report, or whomever has read the report to brief him will find, that they make a specific point of the fact that there has not been -- and this is one of the administrative deficiencies -- a proper capital planning program in the hospital. They make the point that there has not been a proper program planning for the replacement of obsolescent equipment and facilities.

They also point out that there was a very large building program at the hospital culminating a couple of years ago, but this was in other areas in the hospital and not in the areas identified in this report.

I recognize there are some deficiencies. I believe we will see proposals for the correction of those come out of this from the Toronto East General Hospital in the years to come which will be dealt with as they have been in the past.

Mr. Cassidy: If the minister says the problems at the Toronto East General Hospital were not related to underfunding or cutbacks and were related only to management deficiencies, can he explain why it is that, for example, at the Metropolitan General Hospital in Windsor they currently have been forced to close 36 beds over the summer because of funding restraints and as a consequence now have 10 to 12 patients regularly waiting in the emergency wards because they have to stay on stretchers and cannot get a bed?

Will the minister also explain why it is that the Greater Niagara General Hospital now anticipates a deficit of at least $1 million despite the fact that it is filled to capacity?

Why is it that hospitals in every corner of the province are having similar problems in terms of finding enough space to put their patients and of making their budgets stretch to meet the needs if it is just a problem of management at the Toronto East General Hospital, as the minister tries to maintain?

2:30 p.m.

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: I remind the member, the House and the public that in 1981-82 funding for the hospitals in this province, the budgets that were issued at the beginning of the year, compared to the budgets issued at the beginning of the 1980-81 fiscal year, were $314 million higher.

The fact of the matter is the member will find that in a great many of the projections of deficits -- in most of the cases I have looked at -- they include their projections of the settlements that have recently come or will soon come with the Canadian Union of Public Employees, the Service Employees' International Union, the Ontario Nurses' Association and other smaller union groups.

In the budgets sent out early in this calendar year for the current fiscal year, it was indicated to them we were assuming for the purposes of the budget calculations a 10 per cent increase in the salary and wage component. Once we know the actual salary and wage component, we can follow up. We have indicated to them that we will follow up, just as we will for the last fiscal year, once we have the final figures to settle those accounts.

It has to be said that, at whatever level of funding, there will always be demands for more. That is one of the basic problems of our system and something that is going to plague all of us for years to come.

Mr. Ruprecht: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Yesterday, my leader pointed out that some hospitals were unable to provide adequate emergency service. I want to find out from the minister, if he is concerned enough about the state of affairs, will he examine it and report to the House?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: Mr. Speaker, I think the allegations were to the effect that people were being turned away. If one looks into the operation of the system -- by the way, I have not answered the point about Metropolitan General Hospital in Windsor, and I will come back to that -- people who are in life-threatening situations are not turned away. People who take themselves to emergency departments one way or another, by public transit, personal vehicles or on foot, are not turned away.

There is an ongoing problem in ensuring that the existing emergency departments in any community are properly utilized and that the utilization among them and between them is properly balanced. One of the recommendations that came out of this report, which I think is a good one, was for the establishment of an ambulatory care unit at the Toronto East General Hospital.

I am sure the member knows from reading the literature that all the studies of emergency department utilization in the last four or five years have shown that 75 to 80 per cent of the people who present themselves at emergency departments are not emergencies. More and more we are seeing ambulatory care units established that can be a diversion for those people so they can be looked after, while freeing the emergency department staff to look after the 20 to 25 per cent that really are emergencies. It is an ongoing situation we are working on with hospitals, hospital councils and district health councils all over the province.

Coming back to the Metropolitan General Hospital in Windsor, we have had discussions over the last three years with that hospital about changes in the bed mix, and I would be surprised if I did not find that what the member is talking about is a combination of two things.

First, there is the normal summer closure of some beds to take account of holiday schedules. In some communities it is especially difficult to hire replacement staff for the summer, and certainly he will acknowledge that people have to have their vacations. In some communities, one has to close down some beds accordingly.

The second factor would be the reluctance of Metropolitan General Hospital in Windsor to make the changes, particularly in the obstetrics unit of that hospital vis-à-vis the Salvation Army Grace Hospital in Windsor, that would allow them to keep the same number of beds but would add some medical-surgical beds by diverting obstetrical case loads to Grace Hospital.

Mr. Cassidy: Before this gobbledegook goes on too long, is the minister saying it is normal that the situation at Windsor Met hospital should continue year after year when the hospital tells us the beds that have been closed over the summer could easily have been filled to capacity but funding restraints forced the closure? Is the minister saying that is normal?

Is the minister saying it is normal when, at the North York General Hospital, they have every bed filled to capacity and have had to cancel 190 elective surgery treatments in the last year because they did not have places to put the patients? Is it normal that at that hospital they should have to book off the ambulances for several hours at least twice a week?

Is this normal in the hospital system? Can we not expect a hospital system to exist and be able to provide care when people need it, without this kind of cheese paring and cutting back that seem to be constantly pressuring good medical care in Ontario?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: Mr. Speaker, in the little over four years -- close to four and a half years -- I have been Minister of Health, spending on health care in this province has increased by 64 per cent, which is well in excess of the rate of inflation. I submit that at any level of spending the potential will always be there for some complaints. There will always be demands for more facilities, more programs, even if we were to commit the entire budget, and we could never do that.

The delaying of 190 surgical cases in one year is not, in my view, evidence of a major difficulty, considering the number of days in a year and the number of surgical suites available. My colleague the Minister of Education (Miss Stephenson) makes a very good point; I wonder how many of those were due to the strike early this year. I would submit that to the honourable member.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: The other thing I would say is that the member knows a difficulty we do have from time to time, which is entirely beyond our control and which does cause significant problems in the scheduling of elective surgery, is the question of blood supply. Only four per cent of the population donates blood, and from time to time we do run into problems. If we do not have a sufficient supply in the blood bank to support elective surgical procedures, they must be delayed. That happens regularly, I am afraid to say.

CENTENNIAL COLLEGE

Mr. Cassidy: I have a new question for the Minister of Colleges and Universities, Mr. Speaker.

Now that the occupation of the president's office at Centennial College is in its sixth day and there still has been no resolution of the outrageous decision of the college's board of governors to fire 47 maintenance workers, in the hope they will get some savings by contracting out the work, would the minister say, since this has gone on for this long, what actions she or her ministry has taken in the last six days to resolve this dispute and to find a way of saving the jobs of those 47 workers, who have served the college loyally for 10 to 15 years in many cases, and who should not be fired on the grounds proposed by the college?

Hon. Miss Stephenson: Mr. Speaker, I think the leader of the third party should be aware that some two weeks ago, after the decision was taken by Centennial College, the ministry did indeed approach the college and suggest the board should rethink its position about this action it proposed to take. Discussions were going on, related to the alternative courses that might be taken by Centennial College, when some members of the Ontario Public Service Employees Union, and certain other labour organizations, made the decision to occupy the president's office.

This morning I have requested Mr. Robert Joyce, and he has agreed, to act as a special adviser in this situation, to investigate the situation, to provide me with the information and to provide assistance to both parties in an attempt to resolve it.

Mr. Cassidy: That step of appointing Mr. Joyce to the situation could have been taken last Thursday, when, out of frustration, the leaders of the unions felt they had no choice but to sit in, given the fact that the president constantly fobbed them off and said he had no authority to give them any decision because the decision had come from the board of governors.

Is there in the ministry a policy forbidding contracting out in the college system, if it results in workers being fired, as has occurred at Centennial? Does the minister not think it is a matter of fundamental justice that workers should not be fired, as they have been at Centennial, because the college had decided to save some dollars? Those savings of dollars should not be made at the expense of workers' livelihoods when they have given long years of loyal service.

Hon. Miss Stephenson: Every employer in any jurisdiction has to make decisions about the methods of employment that will be most appropriate for those circumstances. In each of the colleges the board of governors employs certain of the staff, based on local requirements, the kinds of patterns in existence within that community and the specific concerns of that institution. I believe that decision is made in 22 different locations in 22 different ways. For the ministry to suggest that at no time ever should any college ever consider contracting anything out I think would be a ludicrous position, because in many of the areas of the province that may be the appropriate thing to do.

2:40 p.m.

Mr. Cassidy: I will put my question to the minister again. Is the minister not prepared to say that workers should not be fired as a consequence of a decision to contract out? Does she not feel there is a responsibility on the province, which is the paymaster for community colleges, to endorse and to support fair labour practices in that

section of the public sector, just as much as it tries to endorse them -- or I hope it tries to endorse them -- with respect to the civil service?

Hon. Miss Stephenson: Mr. Speaker, I think the college system and the ministry have always supported any concept of fair labour practice and will continue to do so.

Mr. Wrye: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Given the disruption that has been caused by these layoffs of 47 support staff members at Centennial College, will the minister give us assurance she will take another look at the budgetary levels given Centennial? Will she see whether they cannot be increased so that Centennial is not put in the kind of financial squeeze that has led to this very unhappy situation?

Hon. Miss Stephenson: Mr. Speaker, the college system this year did achieve a 10.1 per cent increase in budgetary allocation from the government. I believe that is a fairly reasonable level of allocation. I do not believe Centennial College received any less than that; in fact I think it was somewhat more.

I do believe there are certain principles that each of the college boards must pursue. I also believe their decisions must be based on what they perceive as the most appropriate circumstances within the communities they serve.

Mr. Cassidy: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Is the minister not aware of studies by bodies that are reputable, such as the Bureau of Municipal Research, which indicate that long-term savings do not flow from contracting out? Their studies say if any savings occur at all, they are only for the short term and often at the expense of the quality of service. In view of that, is the minister not prepared to make a firm stand and say this kind of contracting out at the expense of workers' jobs should stop?

Hon. Miss Stephenson: Mr. Speaker, the leader of the third party has counselled me on many occasions never to intrude by making any remark in the face of ongoing negotiations, because I might be perceived to be leaning towards one side or the other. Now he is saying that as long as I tend to lean to the side of organized labour that is perfectly fine.

I will not say what he is asking me to say at this point, because those negotiations are ongoing. I am aware of that research. I would remind the honourable member I said not five minutes ago that shortly after the decision was taken by Centennial College, on the basis of our investigation and our calculations, we approached the college and told them we thought they were ill-informed in making the decision they had. We asked them to go back and discuss it with the union.

HELICOPTER FLIGHT

Mr. Riddell: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct my question to the Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet, if I could entice him back to his seat.

Hon. Miss Stephenson: You couldn't entice anyone anywhere.

Mr. Riddell: It sure would not be that minister anyway.

Hon. Miss Stephenson: That I am sure is a sexist remark that the member for Hamilton Centre (Ms. Copps) would not allow.

Mr. Riddell: We've got them awake over there.

Mr. Speaker: Ask the question, Mr. Riddell.

Hon. Miss Stephenson: I think he should withdraw and start over again.

Mr. Speaker: Order. Order. Mr. Riddell has the floor with a question -- I hope.

Mr. Riddell: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Maybe I could meet with the minister afterwards and talk it over.

Mr. Speaker: Mr. Riddell, do you have a question?

Mr. Riddell: I have a question to the Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet. Knowing how cautiously this government spends the taxpayers' money, and knowing the reluctance of this government to offer any kind of interest rate subsidy to farmers and businessmen who are desperately needing help at this time, does the minister think it is a judicious use of the taxpayers' money to provide the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Mr. Henderson) with a helicopter to fly him to his own riding of Lambton in order to attend the warden's picnic?

Hon. Mr. McCague: Mr. Speaker, I want to tell the honourable member that he did not entice me back to my seat; I came here as a matter of duty, and I have since learned that the member cannot even entice the Minister of Education and Colleges and Universities to meet with him after question period.

Mr. Speaker: Proceed, Mr. McCague.

Hon. Mr. McCague: The matter that has been brought to my attention by the honourable member is a matter that is within the discretion of the Ministry of Agriculture and Food. The member might want to ask that minister the very question he has asked me.

Mr. Riddell: Mr. Speaker, if that is the case, I will redirect the question. The Minister of Agriculture and Food heard the question. I will also ask him if he would mind giving this House an estimate of the cost of flying him to that picnic. Furthermore, does he think it is right, as Minister of Agriculture and Food, to deny the farmers and businessmen their very survival in the business world in this province when he flies to attend social functions in his own riding? Is that right?

Hon. Mr. Henderson: Mr. Speaker, I will not give the honourable member the figure of what that cost me personally, and not this government.

Mr. Riddell: How do we know he is telling the truth? I want to see the invoice.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

PLACEMENT OF JUVENILE WARDS

Mr. R. F. Johnston: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Provincial Secretary for Social Development, in the absence of the Minister of Community and Social Services (Mr. Drea). Is the minister aware that the Children's Aid Society of Sudbury has been systematically requesting the provincial court to place juvenile wards in the juvenile detention centre because there is a lack of appropriate placements for hard-to-control juveniles in that city, even though no charges have ever been laid against any of these juveniles?

There has been an accusation by a local lawyer who has defended such children that the ministry is responsible. Is this a common practice throughout the province or is this an aberration?

Hon. Mrs. Birch: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of that particular issue in Sudbury but I will bring it to the attention of the minister responsible.

Mr. R. F. Johnston: Will the Provincial Secretary for Social Development also please bring to the attention of the minister the fact that in the last year 17 such children, according to the CAS, have been placed in the detention centre for periods varying from two to three days to, in the case of one young boy named Alex, a number of weeks. In fact, the CAS has just applied for another three-week extension to that boy's stay in a juvenile detention centre. The reason it gives is that there are 44 fewer spaces available in terms of foster homes and group homes --

Mr. Hennessy: Sit down.

Hon. Mr. Pope: Sit down.

Mr. R. F. Johnston: Mr. Speaker, there is no attention being paid in the House and I do not want to continue. This is a serious matter.

Mr. Speaker: Order. Order.

Mr. R. F. Johnston: Kids are being put in jail because they have not got group homes.

2:50 p.m.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order. It is extremely difficult, and I have mentioned this before, to hear the questions and answers with members carrying on private conversations. I would ask you --

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order. I would ask you all, if you have private conversations, to carry them on outside. Mr. Johnston, proceed with your question, please.

Mr. R. F. Johnston: Mr. Speaker, the accusation is that --

Interjections.

Mr. R. F. Johnston: God! Can the member not control himself for a second?

There are 44 fewer spaces available in foster home care and in group homes for juveniles in Sudbury at the moment. As a result there are no appropriate placements and they are sticking these kids in jail, essentially, until they can find them appropriate placements. Does the minister have a policy for making sure there is going to be an increased allotment of such spaces for these kids around the province?

Hon. Mrs. Birch: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we do have a policy in place. There are three centres for children who are particularly difficult and who have really serious problems. I would remind the honourable member that this government has a policy of encouraging municipalities to provide the group homes required for children like this. It is incumbent upon all of us to help promote that program wherever we may live, so that children will not be placed in those kinds of situations. I will have the minister look into that situation and report back.

Mr. Foulds: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: When will those places be available?

Hon. Mrs. Birch: The facilities for difficult children are under consideration at the moment. The first one is to be opened in the very near future, with two others to follow.

CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL OF EASTERN ONTARIO

Mr. Roy: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Health a question concerning the Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario.

In view of the minister's genuine interest in the vocation of that institution to serve the interests of all the people of eastern Ontario, including the granting of French language services, and since the minister is aware that the whole purpose of setting up the hospital and raising funds was to do exactly that, is he aware that, in spite of the fact that his ministry is granting funds to the tune of something like $60,000 per year to allow this institution to give French language services, in spite of the Dubois report back in 1979, and in spite of the later report of the Social Planning Council of Ottawa-Carleton, a recent report called Let's Talk, dated March 1981, indicates not only that the hospital is not encouraging the giving of French language services to these young people but that the administration in fact seems to be systematically denying those services?

Will the minister review this report and accept one of its major recommendations: that they create a French language advisory committee to advise the board -- not the administrators but the board of trustees -- on matters of francophone services for this hospital and for eastern Ontario?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am aware of that report. Pursuant to the policy that I announced in Sudbury in September 1979, we have funded programs in the Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario in each of the last two fiscal years: $60,000 this year and $55,000 in fiscal 1980-81.

My co-ordinator for French language services, Mr. Leblanc, is going to be meeting with officials of the hospital to review the report, so at this point I am awaiting the results of the discussions he will be having with them. Once I have that report I will be in a better position to respond. I have not actually seen the report; I have only heard of its existence from Mr. Leblanc, who, as I say, is going to be meeting with officials of the hostel.

Mr. Roy: I wonder if I could emphasize to the minister, since the report's major recommendation is the creation of this French language advisory committee for the institution, that it is important to assure that if such a committee is set up -- and I would suggest that the only way we are going to have systematic French language services in that institution is to set up such a committee -- it should report to the board of trustees and not necessarily to the administration?

Will the minister undertake not only to review this report and set up this committee, but to proceed expeditiously? The report has now been before the administration since March 1981 and there appears to be no intention of doing anything about it.

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: I am advised that the board was presented with the report towards the end of March of this year. Apparently it has not responded to the internal group that prepared the report. As a result, somebody apparently tried to leak it to the Association canadienne-francaise de l'Ontario, which is how it became public. That is perfectly fine; I take no issue with that.

I concur with the need to assure services in both languages in the parts of this province that have been designated bilingual by our national government. That is in fact the crux of the politique I released in September 1979. I want to make it clear that I have no authority to force any hospital to establish anything akin to a French-language advisory committee, a FLAC. We have found in other communities that they have been able to find ways to work with their French --

Mr. Roy: Did you say "FLAC"?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: That is what they are called.

Mr. Roy: That is an unfortunate expression.

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: Yes, it may be.

We found in other communities that they have been able to establish mechanisms for working with the staff, representatives of the board and the community to move things forward. I am told, by the way, that about 35 per cent of the staff of this hospital is bilingual now, but the member is quite right. Apparently the report has highlighted certain areas of the hospital where there are deficiencies and one of them is in the chaplaincy area.

Again I can only go by a very brief note I have, basically covering the same things the member has already told me. Mr. Leblanc will be meeting with officials of the hospital and we would take the basic position that the hospital should then issue a statement indicating the policies it hopes will meet with the approval of the people of eastern Ontario, particularly the francophone population.

WHITCHURCH-STOUFFVILLE WATER QUALITY

Mr. Charlton: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of the Environment with reference to the statement he made in the House last Thursday regarding water quality in Whitchurch Stouffville. I quote in part from his statement:

"Based on these results, there is absolutely no indication that the drinking waters are contaminated by the landfill or any other source. In testing for 20 general water quality parameters, 24 metals and 66 industrial chemicals, pesticides and related compounds, we found nothing which would in any way affect or threaten drinking water quality. All in all, our sampling has shown outstanding water quality in the community.

How does the minister reconcile that statement with the report submitted to the Environmental Assessment Board hearing by HB and O Engineering Limited, consultants to the town, in which they made the statement, "Measurable damage is now being done to the well water of a few private properties close to landfill No. 4," and they went through and listed contaminants which are normally used as parameters in normal testing of water quality -- chlorides rising in wells at rather excessive rates, sulphates and conductivity. How does the minister justify the statement he made, in view of the report that was submitted before his board at the hearing in Stouffville?

Hon. Mr. Norton: Mr. Speaker, I have not seen the specific report the honourable member refers to as having been submitted to the hearing. I can say the testing that was done by our ministry covered some 2,000 tests, including 13 private wells plus the municipal water supply. On the basis of our tests, I stand by the conclusions I indicated to the House. I do not know specifically which wells might have been dealt with in the testing the member refers to.

3 p.m.

I do not recall the specific chemicals or compounds the member referred to, but there are certain compounds that are commonly found in water. I would be glad if he would send me a copy of the report, if he has it, so that I can look at it and make a comparison with the results we found to see whether their results varied from ours in any significant way that would indicate any level of impairment of water quality.

In the meantime I would have to stand firmly with the conclusion as a result of the most comprehensive testing of any water supply in the history of this province, using some of the most sophisticated methods available to us. I do not know anything about the methodology used by the consultants for the municipality. I do not know whether they have access to the same sophisticated equipment we have, but I would be glad to look at the report if the member will share it with me.

Mr. Charlton: I would be more than happy to provide the minister with the information we have.

It is my understanding that, when testing for water quality, the substances I referred to are normally a part of the water quality parameters the minister outlined in his statement. One of the three chemicals I mentioned was chloride. The specific wells and rates of increase are listed in the report. In the case of chloride, the report showed two wells increasing at rates of 33 and 38 per cent a year. There were projections that those wells would be over the acceptable level.

I understand some of these substances are commonly found in water. It is the increasing rate and the fact it is approaching the acceptability level that is the problem.

Hon. Mr. Norton: I think that must be kept in perspective. The member, by his own admission in his supplementary question, has suggested there is no indication for alarm in terms of the present water quality. Any evidence of increasing concentrations, albeit at a harmless level to human health, ought to be something that is considered by the hearing tribunal and I am sure it will be.

I would caution the member not to play upon the fears of the public by raising matters that are not threats to public health in such a way that they might be perceived that way from the manner in which he presents them.

Mr. Kerrio: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: While there are certain parameters that are arguable as they relate to the safety of drinking water in the province, would the minister tell us whether he monitors wells in the areas of landfill sites to see if there have been major changes in the quality of the water; not whether it is within the limits of what the minister and some of his staff have decided is acceptable, but whether there are major changes?

Does the minister think it is time those people who are close to these landfill sites and other intrusions on their privacy should know if there are major changes in the quality of their water? Should they know whether the minister or his ministry considers them dangerous or whether it is an intrusion on something they were enjoying before he got there?

Hon. Mr. Norton: Mr. Speaker, I can assure the honourable member that in many instances we do inform them. I cannot say we do so in all municipal landfill sites across Ontario. I think it is doubtful that we do it on a regular basis in all cases, but we certainly do it regularly in many instances.

It is also important to know that there are certain early indicators of leachate from landfill sites. In the case of the Whitchurch-Stouffville site, none of those indicators exists in any of the testing we have done to indicate that there are even early indications of leachate. That is something that is very significant, and we ought to bear it in mind as we continue to monitor the situation during the period of the hearings.

BANKERS' SCHOOL

Mr. Yakabuski: Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the minister who attends wardens' picnics, the Minister of Agriculture and Food.

In view of the fact that his ministry sponsored a bankers' school at the University of Guelph between June 7 and 12, and I believe it was the twenty-seventh annual bankers' school, it would appear that for the first 26 years the minister had some difficulty getting through to them, because on or about June 10 or 11 the bankers of this province collectively or individually made statements that they were going to be more humane and less ruthless when it came to dealing with loans and the problems of the farm community in this province. I am led by that to believe that at that school in Guelph he must have got the message through to them.

Mr. Breithaupt: What foolishness!

Mr. Smith: What foolishness that is.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Hon. Mr. Henderson: Mr. Speaker, what the honourable member is saying is correct. In addition to that, my own deputy met with one of their directors last Thursday at noon, and it was a very good meeting, with great co-operation.

Ms. Copps: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: I may be a new member, but I understood that this question period was to be used to ask questions and receive answers, not to have setup statements by the minister. Why does he not use the time for ministerial statements?

Mr. Yakabuski: Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege --

Mr. Speaker: Order. Are you speaking to the same point?

Mr. Yakabuski: My point of privilege is this, Mr. Speaker: At no time did the member for Renfrew South prenotify or arrange with any minister in this government about any question he has ever asked.

Mr. Mancini: On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker: Do you not feel that the question period is specifically for the back-benchers of the House who have no direct contact with the cabinet and that the parliamentary assistants should ask questions --

Mr. Yakabuski: It's for everybody.

Mr. Mancini: Just let me finish. Does the Speaker not feel that the parliamentary assistants should be able to ask questions only on the most important issues of the day and not use the time of question period with those types of political statements, thereby taking away the opportunity of ordinary back-benchers who need this particular time to question the minister? Will the Speaker consider adding the time used by the parliamentary assistant to this question period?

Mr. Speaker: For the benefit of all members, parliamentary assistants are not prohibited in any way from asking questions. They are not, as you may be aware --

Ms. Copps: There was no question.

Mr. Speaker: Order. They may not, as you are aware, answer questions. They are representatives of constituents, the same as all members in this House and therefore may ask questions.

Mr. Wildman: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: If the minister was so effective in getting through to the bankers at the bankers' school, will he please explain why they retracted the agreement a few days afterwards?

Hon. Mr. Henderson: Mr. Speaker, apparently the honourable member was not listening to the question. There has been no retraction since the meeting in Guelph.

3:10 p.m.

Mr. Riddell: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: If indeed the minister got the kind of co-operation from the bankers that has been indicated here just now, what kind of co-operation are we going to get from the government in connection with some assistance when the Treasurer (Mr. F. S. Miller) indicated he has $100 million to play with? How is he playing with it? Are we going to get it through to the farmers?

Hon. Mr. Henderson: Mr. Speaker, I never heard our Treasurer say he played with money. He makes use of money. We will respond to the honourable member in the fullness of time.

WHITCHURCH-STOUFFVILLE WATER QUALITY

Hon. Mr. Norton: Mr. Speaker, I have further information on the previous question from the member for Hamilton Mountain (Mr. Charlton).

On a quick review of the ministry's report on the water quality in Whitchurch-Stouffville I also note, and I want to bring to the member's attention, that in certain offsite private wells -- I was trying to see how many might be involved -- there was an indication of an increase in certain parameters, such as conductivity, hardness, sulphate and chloride in two offsite wells in our testing.

The examination by our staff in the ministry concluded that was not as a result of contamination from the landfill site but rather from other natural sources in some instances and possibly from road salt in one instance; it was not from the landfill site.

I again reassure the members that the conclusion reached was that the levels measured certainly did not impair water quality from a health standpoint but did cause some aesthetic problems, such as staining, as a result of the use of that water.

Mr. Smith: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: I do not believe, sir, there is any provision for a minister to actually add material to an answer already given to a question that was asked earlier. I may be wrong, but I do not believe there is provision for that. I respectfully ask that you consider adding the time to the question period.

Hon. Mr. Norton: In speaking to that point of order, Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether it is the intention of the Leader of the Opposition to suggest that a minister ought not to try to answer questions as fully, frankly and openly as possible. Is that what the honourable member is suggesting?

Mr. Smith: You should have answered fully and frankly the first time.

Hon. Mr. Norton: I indicated when I rose the second time that in a quick review of the report, which frankly I have not memorized, I came up with specific information that related to a specific question that a member asked me. I felt I owed a responsibility to this House and to that member to be as complete in my response as possible.

Mr. Smith: There is no provision in the rules for that.

Hon. Mr. Norton: I do not intend to let the Leader of the Opposition --

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

HUDAC WARRANTIES

Mr. Van Horne: Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations regarding the Housing and Urban Development Association of Canada's new home warranty plan.

As the minister knows, the plan provides a home buyer with a warranty covering many items for the first year as well as major structural defects in the home for the first five years. A number of my constituents have been told by HUDAC that water leaks in their basement resulting from cracks in the foundation arising after the first year after the warranty plan are not considered major structural defects.

Can the minister assure this House that cracks in the foundation of a home which allow water to seep in, and even water mixed with sand to seep in, are indeed major structural defects and are covered by the plan for the full five years of the warranty?

Hon. Mr. Walker: Mr. Speaker, I cannot give that assurance, but I would like to receive some of the individual complaints and I will have people in the ministry determine the information and supply the member with that as soon as possible.

Mr. Van Horne: The total amount paid to claimants in the last five years was $8.5 million, but only $250,000 of that has been awarded to claimants for major structural defects. There is every evidence that HUDAC is deliberately trying to limit access to the fund under the category of major structural defects.

Will the minister investigate that criticism and report back to us with, it is to be hoped, a broadening of the terms of major structural defects?

Hon. Mr. Walker: Yes. I will get that information for the member.

Mr. Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired. For the benefit of the honourable members, the oral question period was exceeded by three minutes.

Mr. Sargent: On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker: This is a matter, I believe, of urgent public importance. Representing the people of Grey-Bruce, I have to find out something from the Premier today which is of great importance to the people in our area.

Regarding the crumbling hospital situation, particularly in the Grey-Bruce/Owen Sound area, the Premier will remember that --

Mr. Speaker: Order. That is not a point of privilege.

Mr. Sargent: It is, and I want to tell you why. We have --

Mr. Speaker: Order. You had ample time during the question period to ask your question. If you have a question, send a note to the Premier or the minister in charge of that area.

Mr. Sargent: On the point of order, Mr. Speaker: It is very important that we establish now whether we raise $10 million or whether we forget about the whole thing for our hospital. I want to get a guarantee from the Premier --

Mr. Speaker: That may well be very important. I am suggesting, if you are serious about this inquiry, that you immediately send a note to the minister or the Premier and get a response.

Mr. Sargent: Why doesn't the Premier get up on his feet and tell us the truth?

Mr. Speaker: Order.

PETITION

WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION

Mr. Di Santo: Mr. Speaker, I have a petition signed by a number of injured workers and addressed to the Minister of Labour. It says: "We, the undersigned, petition the Minister of Labour to introduce immediate changes to the Workmen's Compensation Act in order to increase benefits for injured workers receiving permanent disability pensions."

REPORTS

STANDING COMMITTEE ON REGULATIONS AND STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS

Mr. Eves from the standing committee on regulations and statutory instruments presented the committee's first report for 1981 and moved its adoption.

Mr. Eves: Mr. Speaker, before moving the adjournment of the debate on the adoption of the report, I wish to make a few comments.

The report being submitted today is the seventh in a series of reports presented by the regulations committee from 1978 through 1980. In a sense, the report is the work of two committees.

In part one, we have concluded the work undertaken by our predecessors in the last parliament, in reviewing the 1,141 regulations filed pursuant to the Regulations Act in 1980. Of these regulations, the committee found only 39 in some way irregular or warranting comment. We believe this speaks well for the public service officials who are involved in the preparation and processing of delegated legislation in the ministries and in the office of the registrar of regulations.

3:20 p.m.

In part two, the committee has continued with its primary responsibility, the vetting of regulations, and through the excellent work of our counsel, L. R. MacTavish, QC, our review is current up to April 30, 1981.

Of the 264 regulations filed in the first four months of 1981, 13 were found to be irregular in some respect. The committee will continue to be as up to date as possible in reporting to the House on regulations as they are filed and published.

The committee has also addressed itself to a number of other matters, including access to regulations and their comprehensibility. Our comments in this regard are to be found in

chapter eight of the report.

As indicated in our conclusion, we will undertake an in-depth study in the fall of notice and comment as well as other procedures to improve the delegated legislation process in Ontario.

On motion by Mr. Eves, the debate was adjourned.

STANDING COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT

Mr. Gillies, from the standing committee on social development, reported the following resolution:

That supply in the following amounts and to defray the expenses of the Ministry of Education be granted to Her Majesty for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1982:

Ministry administration program, $24,935,500; education program, $1,310,536,000; services to education program, $133,424,800.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

REGIONAL MUNICIPALITY OF HAMILTON-WENTWORTH AMENDMENT ACT

Hon. Mr. Wells moved, seconded by Hon. Mr. Bennett, first reading of Bill 115,

An Act to amend the Regional Municipality of Hamilton-Wentworth Act, 1973.

Motion agreed to.

Hon. Mr. Wells: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to permit the regional council to exempt any class or classes of shops in any designated part or parts of the regional area from any provisions of its store closing bylaw during a particular day or days of the year.

MILK AMENDMENT ACT

Hon. Mr. Henderson moved, seconded by Hon. Mr. McCague, first reading of Bill 116,

An Act to amend the Milk Act.

Motion agreed to.

Hon. Mr. Henderson: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to give the Ontario Milk Marketing Board the authority to collect funding which they committed under the Ontario Dairy Herd Improvement Corporation.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY AMENDMENT ACT

Mr. Swart moved, seconded by Mr. Grande, first reading of Bill 117,

An Act to amend the Legislative Assembly Act.

Motion agreed to.

Mr. Swart: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of the proposed

section 1 in this bill is to provide that the Legislature sit part of every month during the year instead of the current policy whereby it may sit continuously for four months in the spring, two months in the fall and be recessed or adjourned for the rest of the year.

The proposed

section 2 declares that the designations "a member of the Legislative Assembly" or "MLA" are the official designations of persons elected to the Legislative Assembly. The intent is to have a designation conform more closely to designations used in other provinces and to eliminate confusion between the designations "MPP" and "MP."

ELECTION AMENDMENT ACT

Mr. Kolyn moved, seconded by Mr. MacQuarrie, first reading of Bill 118,

An Act to amend the Election Act.

Motion agreed to.

Mr. Kolyn: Mr. Speaker, by way of explanation, the bill is the Election Amendment Act,

Section 1: The provision clarifies that a reference to time in the act is a reference to the prevailing time system.

Section 2: The act now provides that certain classes of persons may vote by proxy. The effect of the proposed amendment will be to permit any person who is unable to vote because of his absence from his polling subdivision during the election period to vote by proxy.

Section 4 of the act now provides that the polls be open from 8 a.m. to 7 p.m. The proposed amendment would extend the closing time until 8 p.m.

Mr. Foulds: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: I am a little puzzled. If a bill has already been introduced that has the same clause or purpose as one that is being introduced, is it in order? One

section of that bill has already been introduced in this Legislature.

Mr. Wildman: Both sections.

Mr. Speaker: There seems to be some confusion as to whether there is or not. I will be pleased to look into that. I honestly do not know.

AGE OF RETIREMENT ACT

Mr. Kolyn moved, seconded by Mr. Kennedy, first reading of Bill 119,

An Act respecting the Age of Mandatory Retirement.

Motion agreed to.

Mr. Kolyn: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of the bill is to ensure that no person shall be required to retire before reaching the age of 70 where the person is capable of performing his or her job.

Section 1: The Employment Standards Act, 1974, is amended to prohibit an employer from including mandatory retirement below the age of 70 as a term or condition of a benefit plan offered to employees.

Section 2: The Pension Benefits Act is amended to prevent the registration of a pension plan containing a term or condition requiring the retirement of persons under the age of

Section 3: The Public Service Act is amended to raise the age of mandatory retirement from 65 years of age to 70 years.

Section 4: The provision permits an employer to cause an employee to retire after attaining the age of 65 where, because of his state of health or other reasons, the employee is no longer able to perform his duties. An employee retiring under this provision would incur no penalty for early retirement.

TRIBUTES TO BARRY'S BAY RESIDENTS

Mr. Yakabuski: Before the orders of the day, I want to bring to the attention of the House two very significant events that happened in the past week.

On Thursday of last week I had intended to rise and bring to the attention of the House the birthday of a former member for Renfrew South. As a matter of fact, it was his 101st birthday but, because of the donnybrook that took place, I was unable to do so. Because of pressing events in my riding I was not able to do so on Friday or yesterday either.

3:30 p.m.

I want to call to the attention of the House that on Thursday, June 10, Mr. Thomas P. Murray of Barry's Bay, who served in this Legislature from October 30, 1929, until, I believe, June 16, 1945, celebrated his one hundred and first birthday quietly in his home in Barry's Bay. He has made a significant contribution to his community and to this province, and I feel it should not go unrecognized. I understand that his grandson, the member for Renfrew North (Mr. Conway), celebrated last night by making a very commendable speech in this Legislature on the supply estimates.

Last week, this House also remembered the late Dr. Charles Best and Dr. Frederick Banting, who discovered insulin. That discovery was so phenomenal, so remarkable, that Mr. H. J. Chapeskie of Barry's Bay, who came down with diabetes very severely around August 1932, found insulin, like others, and lived a healthy, active, productive life for 48 years until, I believe, February of this year. I thought that also should go on the record, because it is very significant.

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON NOTICE PAPER

Hon. Mr. Wells: Mr. Speaker, before the orders of the day I wish to table the answers to questions 102 and 116 standing on the Notice Paper. [See Hansard for Friday, June 19.]

Mr. T. P. Reid: Mr. Speaker, before the orders of the day I have had question 92 in regard to public opinion polls on the Notice Paper since May 19, 1981. It is indicated that the approximate date on which information will be made available is mid-June 1981. Since this is hardly a surprise to the government, and in view of their commitment to freedom of information, I wonder when we are going to see these public opinion polls.

Hon. Mr. Wells: Mr. Speaker, it would be my observation that we are still well within mid-June. Presumably some answer will be forthcoming shortly.

Mr. Martel: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: May I ask the government House leader, in view of the fact that some 75 questions were supposed to be answered by mid-June and that, today being June 16, we have now passed that deadline, whether he intends to present a deluge of answers in the next two or three days to the approximately 75 questions awaiting response?

While I am at it, may I ask the government House leader about the government's responses in oral question period as well? We are being told by various ministers that they will respond to questions down the road a little way, but in some instances a month and a half to two months go by and we are still awaiting the responses from those various ministers who indicated their intention to respond. I can think of four that I alone have raised with respect to labour, health, mining tax and so on, and I am still awaiting those responses.

I would hate to have to ask all my colleagues to put together the questions they have raised and to which they have not received responses. But I would ask the government House leader to look into the matter with his cabinet colleagues and start to produce some of those oral answers before we have a list equal in length to that now on the Order Paper for written questions.

Hon. Mr. Wells: Mr. Speaker, I say to my friend in regard to the last point he brought up that it really is the responsibility of the members who ask the questions to follow up and make sure they get answers. I can assure him that all my colleagues will diligently answer the questions.

I have no way of knowing whether they have mailed the members an answer, talked to them in the hall or in some other way answered the questions, and the members have privately said, "Yes, that's fine, that answers our questions."

I think as far as oral questions are concerned, I can say my colleagues will diligently answer them to the best of their ability and as quickly as possible, but the responsibility perhaps rests also with the member asking the question. If he does not feel he is getting the answer in time, he should rise in question period and ask the minister why he did not get the answer. As far as written questions are concerned, I will be happy to look into that particular matter and take it up with the people who compile the answers, because, here again, we very carefully attempt to have them done within the spirit of the standing orders of this House and have them answered in that manner.

Mr. Martel: As one who is not easily provoked, I will arrange to have a list passed around my caucus and I will get up and raise all 30 or 40 of them as one question tomorrow.

Mr. Foulds: Surely if a minister in this House, in his answer to an oral question, makes a commitment to reply more fully, that is a commitment made to this Legislative Assembly as a whole and should be met without a private member having to use one of his further questions to extract that answer from the cabinet minister. I understand fully that a minister may or may not answer a question as he sees fit, but if he makes a commitment in this House to this Legislative Assembly to answer more fully, then he has an obligation, not only as a cabinet minister but as a member of this assembly, to answer that question fully before the House adjourns.

Mr. Speaker: The House leader has said he would look into the matter to see if the questions could not be answered.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

TORONTO ISLANDS AMENDMENT ACT

Hon. Mr. Wells moved second reading of Bill 103,

An Act to amend the Toronto Islands Act.

Mr. Epp: Mr. Speaker, this bill, as the minister has previously indicated, is going to stay the writs until December 31 of this year. Obviously we will be supporting the bill. It is, of course, partially in response to the Swadron report, which we have here and which is going to be debated at greater length in the future when the government has an opportunity to study the whole matter a little more thoroughly and come forth with recommendations with respect to the island community.

The 750 or 800 residents, or whatever number are there, are obviously looking forward to some kind of long-term permanent solution. Ever since this particular matter was turned over by the city of Toronto to Metropolitan Toronto back in 1956, there have been some eyebrows raised and questions asked with respect to the islands being turned over to Metro. There were a lot of people opposed to it in 1956, and it was because of the financial constraints of the city of Toronto that the islands were turned over to Metro.

The Swadron report has about 36 recommendations, a major one of which is the fact that the island community remains intact as it is now and that the city of Toronto has an important say in the management of the islands. Obviously the city of Toronto council's thinking is much more attuned to that of the island residents than the thinking of Metro council. As you know, Mr. Speaker, Metro council has allocated $250,000 for a campaign to win support for making that island a park.

3:40 p.m.

In this party we hope the island community will stay and I think the government has so indicated. The question is: What will the exact details of that be? The government has until December to make up its mind. I hope it is not going to leave it until the last minute as it did last year. Last year we dealt with this matter on November 14 and I think it was the next day the writs were supposed to be issued.

The government has the whole summer. It has had two or three months to study the report, which came out in mid-March. The government has an opportunity to study the report thoroughly, make its recommendations and bring in legislation in the fall so the final death knell can be dealt to those people who hope to remove all the residents from the island. Based on a number of surveys, I think the majority of residents in the city of Toronto and in Metropolitan Toronto support the continuation of the island community, as do we in this House.

We would like the government to get on with the business of trying to give some permanence to that community. We look forward to the recommendations it will be introducing later this year.

Mr. R. F. Johnston: Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak again on the Toronto Islands bill. I rise in support of Bill 103,

An Act to amend the Toronto Islands Act, 1980, although all it does is extend the period during which the writs cannot be acted upon by Metropolitan Toronto until December 31, thus buying more time for the government.

This is a major development for us. When we had this legislation brought before us previously, we had only 24 hours before the writs were to be issued. This time, it is two weeks in advance and we can have a long, leisurely debate on extending this period of time. I think that is a positive move by the government.

The most disappointing thing is we do not have the legislation in front of us today that would bring the final lasting solution for the islanders -- or at least the 25-year solution that Mr. Swadron recommended -- and we would have this issue out of the way once and for all. Instead, we have it hanging over our heads and, more importantly, over the heads of the islanders for another few months. There is a series of questions before those people which must make them feel a little uncertain about their futures.

I would like to go back to the initial bills brought in by the government to put this into context. The initial bills were essentially bills of attrition. They did not accept the concept that the community should stay, but instead talked about the individual citizens who lived there and talked about those citizens, as individuals, being able to stay.

These bills were persisted with right up to the last minute and there was great confrontation in the House, even though it was understood that was totally unacceptable to the islanders. It was also unacceptable to the opposition, which at that time was in the majority compared to the governing party.

There was great reluctance because of a large and deep division in the Tory ranks about the future of the islanders. The present Minister of Industry and Tourism (Mr. Grossman) and the member for Wilson Heights (Mr. Rotenberg) championed the rights of the islanders. There were a number of others who were just as adamantly opposed to the islanders. The Speaker is shaking his head, wanting to dissociate himself from any of them; however, that was a large group. The minister was caught in the middle trying to find the attrition route as his way out.

Up to the last minute on November 14, when the writs were to be issued the next day, the minister was speaking about three alternatives, two of which were not real alternatives at all. The only alternative was to extend the writs until the Swadron report was brought down. The minister did not do that until the last minute. Then there were delays following Mr. Swadron's report.

Mr. Swadron and I had the pleasure of sitting together on the way back from Thunder Bay the other day. He alleged that he wished to talk to me about any number of the myriad items upon which I can converse with great lucidity, as you can well presume, but by the end of the trip it was quite clear what he was really interested in knowing: how had I received a copy of his report in advance of everybody else in Ontario. That was really the meaning of it.

We waited two and a half to three months from the time of his report being completed and put into the hands of the minister to its release in the House. Yet, in the speeches made in the House, there was a request made of the minister that he not delay, that he come through with recommendations and that we have a chance to debate it before an election, and if not before an election, at least well before the writs would come due this July. Instead, what we have run into is just another prolongation, a bill which prolongs the time in which the sheriff can act, and nothing which guarantees the position of the islanders.

I would like to compliment Mr. Swadron on his report, both the version I saw earlier and that which has now been given to all members. I recommend it to all members for reading. It is probably the best written report I have read in my limited time here in the Legislature, considering the hurried fashion and the constraints he was under. Pressure Island chronicles the history of the islanders and their problems better than any of the major debates I have heard on the issue, whether at the Metropolitan Toronto level or here in the House. I will not go back into that but I urge all members to read it to try to understand that issue.

I leaked the recommendations of that document during the election because I wanted to make sure we did not get to the situation, which did occur, of a majority government. I did not stop the election of a majority government, but by leaking that information I did cause the government to make a statement of intent about the Toronto Islands before the election was over, so that it would feel constrained and committed to a certain course of action no matter what the result of that election.

I believe we gained something towards that end because of that release. The minister indicated in a press conference upon the official release of the document that the essence of the report would be implemented. He never allowed himself to be more specific than that, but he did state that the government would now accept the essence of the report. That is a substantial move away from the old attrition view, because there is nothing in that report which indicates that attrition is acceptable. That has been a cause of great hope for the islanders and those of us who have been fighting on their side.

There is, though, still a great concern. Here we are sitting and talking about a bill that extends the issuance of the writs but does not let us know what the government is actually going to do. It does not give us any inkling at all as to what the government's formal legislation which is going out for public hearing is going to touch upon. That is a major concern to myself and to many islanders.

Does the government mean that by accepting the essence of the report it accepts the bulk of the 36 recommendations that come at the end of that report? Is that what we are to understand? If that is the case, then we can all revel in the fact that legislation is just a little difficult to come forward with but it will be coming with that kind of thing in it. Or is the government going to start to limit its

interpretation of what is the essence of Swadron? And if it does so, will it be jeopardizing the life of that community? That is the concern raised by many at the moment.

There are four or five major items in that report which I would consider to be the essence, and I would be interested in hearing in the minister's

summary his comments on any of these particular items. One was the lease, the lease going for 25 years, to 2005 or whatever. That acceptance of a long-term lease, the ability of the community to stay, is an important principle within the Swadron recommendations. Has that been absolutely accepted?

3:50 p.m.

I think the concept of no profiteering is vital. The people who have been living as owners on the island for some time are now going to be tenants and are not going to be able to sell their property for profit during the course of this lease agreement. I think that is vital in terms of the concerns of the broader community which does not want to see a lot of small-time speculation going on and the development of a ritzy little area on the island.

The cost of upgrading the buildings is another important component of what Swadron was talking about. In connection with that there is the possibility of relocating homes which are in flood danger areas. Moving those to a more confined area of the community as he lays it out is also an important principle we would want to see as part of the essence of the Swadron report.

There is also the notion of preference in terms of who may be a tenant. I think the concept he came forward with is very just -- that is, that people who are resident there now would be given preference. The absentee landlords, those who have moved from the island in the last number of years but maintain ownership and sublet, have a secondary right, not a primary one, to residency on the island. Has that principle been accepted and will it be coming forward in the legislation?

The other vital thing he talked about, in my view, is the upgrading of the general facilities on the island. He spoke of the responsibility of the city of Toronto, in conjunction with Metropolitan Toronto, to pick up the cost of improved sanitation, sidewalks, lighting, et cetera; that is mentioned in his report.

In my view that would comprise the essence of the Swadron report. If that is what the minister is talking about in terms of the essence of the Swadron report then I am glad to wait and see what the government comes forward with.

I welcome the notion of public hearings, and I would raise a couple of matters. The member for Waterloo North (Mr. Epp) just raised the issue of the motion by the Metropolitan Toronto government to spend $250,000 to bring forward its case in terms of the need for park land over there.

Mr. Nixon: You should pass legislation to stop them.

Mr. R. F. Johnston: You know, Mr. Speaker, that sounds like not a bad idea.

My concern is that these people refused to participate in the Swadron hearings. That was an opportunity for them to have presented their case. Now they are going to come forward at a time when we would be holding public hearings on some specific legislation and propagandize -- to a fairly large degree with that amount of money -- the people of Toronto to try to swing public opinion against it. I think that is a very negative thing to have happen at a time when these hearings would be going on.

I know the vitriolic side of that council in a very personal way. It passed a three-stage motion. The first was to condemn the proposed legislation. The second was to have $250,000 worth of propaganda and third was basically to investigate the cause of the leak of the document.

They asked the Ontario Provincial Police to investigate how that leak ever occurred -- how Johnston ever got hold of this information. They did this in a horrible, small-minded, petty way to try to find some kind of scapegoat. Their rationale behind this was that it was just shocking to have what they considered a cabinet document being leaked. These are people, of course, who have no responsibility to cabinet. The cabinet, as I understand it, exists here at the Legislature and not at Metropolitan Toronto council. Yet they were able to request the provincial police to come and investigate it.

The provincial police did not find themselves able to investigate. It was not in their area of jurisdiction. So they notified their boss, the Solicitor General (Mr. McMurtry). The motion read specifically that the OPP investigate, but the Solicitor General decided not just to send back the motion saying it was inappropriate -- and maybe with no extra comments about the petty, small-mindedness of it -- but that it was something worth looking into. He sent it down to the Metropolitan Toronto Police who then put two policemen on the case. For a number of weeks they went around talking to Mr.

Swadron, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Mr. Wells), to myself, to CITY-TV, to anybody they could, about just where this leak had taken place. Finally, after great cost to the taxpayer, they determined there was nothing to be discovered, and there were no major conclusions to their report at all.

This is the nature of that council and its view. So as we come forward to have a public hearing on this matter, and legislation that hopefully will be bringing forward the essence of the Swadron report, we are going to have this council doing everything in its power to try to turn public opinion against us. I think that is an unfortunate thing and would hope there would be some action taken.

I would hope, just in conclusion -- so I do not repeat myself too much at this point -- that the minister in summing up will respond to what he considers to be the essence of the Swadron report, and will explain what he considers the major principles that will be embodied in the bill.

I know he says he has had difficulty in drafting this bill and that is the reason we have not seen it at this point, but if at least he could tell us the principles that will be embodied, we will have some idea before this particular bill is passed as to whether or not we can feel pretty secure that the battle against the forces that wish to get rid of the island homes will be successful, or whether we are going in on shaky ground against a very determined opposition in Metro council.

Mr. Ruprecht: Mr. Speaker, I rise in support of the essential nature of Bill 103. As all of us know, the fight for the Toronto Islands has been going on for a long time. The reason Metro council has used the basic argument of instability of the houses on the islands was to discourage repairs. They say the houses are really in a very detrimental condition, and if nothing is done fairly soon these houses will fall down of their own accord. That is one of the basic arguments that was being used on the Metro scene.

We find that argument is being used against the islanders for a very specific reason, because that would, in turn, discourage any repairs. It would discourage anyone from spending extra money to build up the sewer system, or to build up the quality of their home.

By introducing the essential instability framework for the islands, Metro council was able to produce a psychology on the islanders that was not in tune with fixing up one's home. That strategy was fairly effective. When one goes to the island, one finds some of these homes are really in a great state of disrepair.

I would indicate the reason for that is fairly simple to understand. The islanders were almost ready on a daily basis to vacate their premises. In fact, they had been asked to vacate by some of the sheriffs who had been sent over by Metro council to take possession of these homes. It is small wonder then that some of these homes were not being repaired, and that this kind of a strategy had actually worked to the detriment of that.

The point I am trying to raise here is simple, and that is that some of the members on the Metro council scene have really been misinformed. For instance, it was indicated on Metro council while I was still present that the sewer systems were totally inadequate in that they are actually below the level of the water. Consequently, there would be backup into their homes, and that was not very healthy. The health inspectors were sent to the island homes to determine the state of that.

The other reason being utilized by Metro council was that we need an increase in the size of the park. They said Metropolitan Toronto needs to be in a position to have all kinds of people go to the island and use it as park space. When we look at the facts of the matter we find that we have sufficient park space on the islands, and that the park space is underutilized at present. The argument about getting in there and cleaning out the island homes and making it into open space for other Metro residents is not a fair argument, simply because we have statistics that prove there is plenty of room for any Metro resident over there at any time.

4 p.m.

The other point I wanted to make is that I think it is a very good idea for the island residents to stay because it simply means there is a built-in effect against any further commercial expansion. I think that idea is very important to understand.

If Metro council, for instance, wanted to expand the island airport and introduce a new type of jet to fly in, there would simply be no person, no organized group, no one there to say, "Your expansion of the airport would indeed bother us because we live in the area." I indicate we should keep that in mind, that the essential nature of the islands as they are now could be maintained by the presence of these islanders. If we remove them, we have removed the main bulwark and the main argument against an expansion of the commercial enterprise of the island airport.

As a citizen of the city of Toronto, having also served on the city council, I would find that a good argument against the expansion to a bigger service than the one we agree on now -- we have agreed to permit the Dash-7 to go in there. The basic fear on the part of the city of Toronto council has been that permission being granted for that particular aircraft was the thin edge of the wedge and that once we permit those kinds of airplanes to go in there it automatically means we are permitting a greater use and a commercial expansion of the island airport.

Let us not underestimate the fact that the island community in this case would be the major organized community which would stop an expanded airport. I think that is very important and the reason why we should move as soon as possible to pass this legislation.

The other point I wanted to make is that if the island community goes we would not have sufficient police protection to look at and examine all the activity -- and there has been incident after incident -- that went on there in the summertime and in the wintertime. By the very existence of the island homes and the islanders being there in many cases -- and this can be documented -- life-saving situations have occurred.

The islanders, in walking across the island to get to their homes and just being around in the neighbourhood, their physical presence, have been responsible for some saving of life that has already taken place there. So really one of the other advantages we are receiving by the very fact of the island community being there is free protection, and it does not cost us a cent to help to maintain not only the quality of the island but also its beauty. We almost had a police force over there looking at the preservation of the quality of life and I think that is another fairly important aspect to consider.

Mention has already been made by two honourable members here that $250,000 has been set aside to campaign against the recommendations in the Swadron report. Let me say that we are unequivocally the final arbitrators of the split and the arguments between Metropolitan Toronto and the city of Toronto. Where else can they go? There simply is not a higher political authority than this government and the cabinet, supported in this case I am sure by all members of the House.

Consequently, we should realize our role in this endeavour, that we have a very important responsibility to ensure that the island community can stay. Metro Toronto and the city of Toronto will have to come to us and we are now making a decision that the island community should stay. I think that is a great idea.

In conclusion, we should move quickly and as soon as possible on the essential nature of these recommendations. I am positive that when we do we will see a significant increase in the quality of the houses there and in the quality of the physical nature of not only the island homes but of the surrounding area.

The Deputy Speaker: Thank you, Mr. Ruprecht. It was brought to my attention that we were not sure you were sitting in your proper place and at some future time that should be corrected.

Mr. Renwick: Mr. Speaker, I want to speak briefly about the bill. I had the opportunity to read at leisure shortly after the election the report on the islands and the problems that are involved in the solution of the difficult question that was placed before the commissioner.

I want to compliment the commissioner and his staff for what I think is not only a very readable but also brilliant exposition of the state of the islands at the present time. Apart from the immediate problem it had to address, it will certainly be a reference work for some time to come. I found it fascinating from the point of view of the history that was outlined in the report of all of the interests, competing and otherwise, that are involved in the use of the islands and the way in which the islands fit into the city and Metropolitan Toronto in particular, as well as other areas surrounding this part of the world.

I have little, if any, sympathy for the Metropolitan Toronto council. At the time this commission was appointed to deal with the matter, Metro Toronto council felt it should not be handled by a commission but that the writs of eviction should proceed.

At the very time that was taking place and the government decided to appoint the commission, one finds in the body of the report what the Metropolitan Toronto council was doing in June, July, August and September of 1980. It was extending the leases or granting new leases to the three private yacht clubs for an acreage which exceeds the acreage occupied by the islanders. If anybody talks about an Achilles' heel in the position of Metropolitan Toronto, that is it.

Whatever sympathy one might have for the ideal position that the Toronto Islands should be devoted solely and exclusively to park purposes disappeared when the integrity of the Metropolitan Toronto council disappeared in September 1980 after it approved the grant of 25-year leases to the three private yacht clubs.

As the report very clearly states, you and I are not entitled to walk on the lands of those yacht clubs; you and I are trespassers if we go near those yacht clubs. That is not true of the island community. In the island community, the rights of the individual persons to their own homes is certainly private, but access in and out through the boardwalks, the sidewalks and the other areas of access to the community is available to any citizen who wants to make use of it.

I cannot understand the way in which Metro council has dealt with this matter. As has been mentioned, it now is prepared to spend several thousand dollars to subvert the work of the commissioner in trying to reach a solution to the problem. The integrity of Metro council on this issue has simply disappeared.

4:10 p.m.

I want to speak about one major problem, as I see it. I am going to assume that, as my colleague the member for Scarborough West (Mr. R. F. Johnston) has said and as the member for Parkdale (Mr. Ruprecht) has said, the gut substance of the recommendations of the commissioner will be accepted. I am going to make that assumption; it is a dangerous assumption, but I am going to take whatever I could read of the minister's statements from time to time as indicating that, yes, the islanders' community will be retained in the position where it now is, as delineated by the commissioner, and it will be under the intricate legal arrangements for a 25-year period.

What distressed me was the avenue that it led, if this assembly is not careful, to an attrition program by default, either an attrition program by default or a program which will result in many of the present islanders not being able to remain in the island homes. I want to try to draw attention to it. I will stand to be corrected in my understanding of the report if the matter is covered, but it is very clearly an omission on the part of the commissioner or perhaps either an oversight or a matter to which he would like to address his attention.

If he does not, I want the minister to know that when the bill comes to us in the fall for consideration to implement it, I want the matter to be covered.

What we are interested in is protecting the people who have, subject to all of this fighting, the first right to get the subleases from the city of Toronto with respect to their island homes. Those are the people I am talking about. Over a period of time I would hope, subject to the usual mobility in an area such as this, that those are the people who will be protected in their tenure. I understand the problem the commissioner has stressed and I accept the position he has taken of the necessity of not providing a windfall benefit to the island people simply by the grant of leases subject to a right to assign.

At page 559, I think it is, of his report when he is dealing with this question, he indicates quite clearly that we cannot, by the mere granting of a lease, create a valuable asset in the hands of the tenants of the property. I accept that. I also accept as a lawyer that one must preclude that salable value or usable value or incremental value that would fall to the tenants by prohibiting assignments. I can well understand there must be some flexibility with respect to occasional consents to sublease where the actual tenant is going to be away for a short period of time.

Let me also say I accept the proposition that to the extent the tenant has had to bring the property up to minimal standards over the years, and then, as is forecast in the report, up to the general standards required by the bylaws of the city of Toronto, on surrender of the lease the tenant would be entitled to proper recompense for the improvements that have been made to it. I accept all of those principles as set out by the commissioner.

But if one looks at page 500 of the report and the few pages surrounding that, we get some sense of the immense financial outlay that members of that community are going to be faced with in order to bring their homes up to the standards which are required.

In an endeavour to focus attention on the point which I think has to be addressed by the government in preparing the bill, let me just quote from page 500 of the report: "Repair costs to bring all homes in compliance with housing bylaw 1973 number 68 were estimated at $1,728,558. Costs to comply with health and safety matters alone were estimated at $354,849."

"The average cost for complying with housing standards at Ward's is an amount over $8,000, and on Algonquin over $5,000. Average cost to comply with health and safety regulations at Ward's is almost $2,000, and on Algonquin just over $900. The range for bylaw compliance at Ward's Island is from about $250 to over $18,000; the parallel range on Algonquin is from $135 to about $19,000. These figures give one an indication of just how expensive it would be to bring the premises into compliance with minimum housing standards. The costs of rehabilitating a residence beyond minimal standards would be even more expensive."

It goes on to elaborate to some extent on that question. It then deals with the question of the cost to be borne if a proper sewage system is installed. The additional connection charge for that is estimated to be $600; it is the same if a proper water system is installed.

So there are very significant costs to be borne by the tenants on the island to bring their properties up to the standard that will be required. I recognize clearly that the commissioner foresaw that it would be done in a staged process so they would not be expected to do everything at once. But the minimum health and safety standards would have to be met, and then the general standards would have to be met; and those costs would have to be borne by the tenants themselves.

But there is no way, according to this report, that a tenant can have the assistance of his lease for the purpose of financing those costs. I do not know how one would do it; I do not know how one would arrange it. But it does seem to me unreasonable to expect any tenant on that island to look to, say, an average expense of approximately $10,000 to be able to go and either borrow it or have the benefit of $10,000 in order to bring the property up to those standards, unless in some way he can bank the lease.

There may be other ways to deal with it, but for most of the people on the island, as I understand it from reading the report, that means in substance they will not be able to stay there even though they have the benefit of a sublease from the city for a 25-year period.

I think that question simply has to be addressed. If not, then one can see what will happen: either the leases will be surrendered by the present tenants and the city of Toronto will sublet them on some basis to various other people -- and there is no indication whatsoever that it is going to be done in such a way as to provide low-cost housing for the tenants who will remain on the island; or there will be a gradual surrender of leases to the city, and, in a way, attrition will take place.

I think that is a gap in the report. It is not a criticism of the report; it is simply to point out to the minister that when they are giving consideration to the kind of bill we will deal with in the fall, this matter has to be addressed. How in this day and age are the present tenants on the island going to finance the costs of bringing those properties up to the standard which the commissioner foresaw and which is a very reasonable and proper objective?

Is the province going to provide funds through the city of Toronto by way of reasonably low-cost loans or otherwise to the tenants? What is the vehicle by which the money can come to the tenants? I would guarantee that very few of the tenants on the island at the present time could walk into a bank, even if they could afford to pay the interest rate, and simply get an open loan for the amount that would be required without being asked the basic and fundamental question, "Where is the security?" If the program set out in this report is accepted, the tenant would reply, "I am sorry, I cannot give you by way of assignment my sublease of the premises as security for the repayment of the moneys."

4:20 p.m.

I am not suggesting how it should be done. I do not have the imagination to put forward all the alternatives or to suggest what they should be. I want the minister to clearly understand that particular problem must be addressed in a satisfactory way. The purpose and intent of the commissioner's report was to secure the tenure of the people now on the island, subject to the usual mobility of life in this particular area. People do move around, they change their wishes, and they will not always be on the island simply because they are now tenants.

I want to point out to the minister that if this report is implemented not a single tenant now entitled to obtain a lease on his home for the 25-year period should be subject to the kind of pressure that says he has no alternative but to surrender his lease because he cannot get the dollars at a reasonable cost to permit him to upgrade the property over a period of time to the standards required.

I trust I have made my position and the concern I have about the report very clear. I wanted to signal it very clearly to the government, because without that kind of provision in the new bill or without some kind of solution to that problem we will only have the mythology that everybody on the island has a 25-year lease and is secure in their tenure in the usual way. We will find one of two things: either a substantial attrition over a period of time or a substantial change in the nature of the community on the island.

I do not think the fight that has gone on about the island homes was for the purpose of creating a particular enclave of well-to-do people who would be acceptable tenants for those homes because they could afford the cost of upgrading. That was not the intention or the purpose.

There is one indication in the report of an avenue through which this can be accomplished. It is the reference to the Toronto Islands' co-operative. In my judgement, if all the properties -- in the intricacies of land tenure -- could be sublet by the city to the co-operative under suitable and satisfactory terms, it may be possible to turn the island community into a model co-operative where all these problems could be resolved with proper assistance from the government. I do not think the city need bear all the costs.

With proper assistance from the city, from Metro -- if it is decreed by this assembly that Metro should participate -- and failing that, from this government, some of those financing problems can be solved.

I want the minister to understand the fundamental and basic concerns I have about the report. I close as I opened, by complimenting the commissioner and his staff on the excellence and readability of the report.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Cousens): Does any other honourable member wish to participate in this debate? If not, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.

Hon. Mr. Wells: Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the members for their contribution to this debate. This is a very short and simple bill. It extends the deadline for preventing the serving of the writs that are outstanding against those homes now on the island.

As I explained when I introduced the bill, the reason for this is so that we can have more time to draft it and carry out the complete discussions necessary to bring forward a proper bill which will carry out the announced intention of the government. That has been enunciated by several members in this debate: that is, to implement the essence of the Swadron report, which is that a community on the Toronto Islands should be continued.

But that is only half of what I said at the time. I said, and I am quoting again from my statement, the essence of the report is that a community on the Toronto Islands should be continued and those who are resident in that community should pay their way. That is an integral part of the policy this government announced concerning the Toronto Islands. We believe in a residential community on the islands. We believe that on Algonquin and Ward's islands a residential community should remain. We believe those people living there should have certain preferences and precedence.

We believe the city of Toronto should handle the leasing and arrangements with those residents rather than Metro. But we also fully believe those people living in that community should pay their way.

I believe the bill I will be bringing in later this year will fulfil that statement of policy I enunciated. It will provide for leases for 25 years. It will prohibit profiteering. It will provide for upgrading of the buildings and the general facilities. The whole matter of who will get preference is one of those delicate things still to be decided. I cannot tell my friend now how the bill will read in that regard because that is one of the areas that will have to be straightened out. It must be worded very carefully. That is one of the sections that caused us to delay a little in bringing in the final bill.

It is my intention to get a draft ready. I will not bring it into this House for first reading, but probably make it available to members of this House, certainly to Metropolitan Toronto and the city of Toronto people and the island people so that we can have some discussion and meetings with various groups over the summer. By the time the House reassembles, we will have had our discussions, we will have input and we should have a final bill pretty well in place.

I think I said publicly when I brought this bill in for first reading that it has already been seen by the legal departments of both Metropolitan Toronto and the city of Toronto and we have had some input from them. We will continue that process because there are a number of legal things connected with the bill which must be addressed. We feel this can best be done working together with the lawyers for both those municipal corporations.

As other members have said, I would certainly criticize very strongly the intention of Metropolitan Toronto to use public funds to fight this legislation. I think it is an atrocious thing to do. I have said that before and will continue to say that. The use of moneys for some kind of an advertising campaign is completely unnecessary and uncalled for. I hope they will reconsider in the spirit we offer of letting them work to develop this bill.

The other thing which makes us very cautious in drafting this bill is the threat -- I do not know whether threat is a good word to use -- the indication of prolonged court action once the bill is passed. This leads us to want to be sure the bill is drafted in a way that is, I guess to use a nonlegal but vernacular term, airtight, if such can ever be. I am not sure that such can ever be, but that is what we are trying to do. We want to be sure that we are able to draft a bill that will not end up being the subject of court battles for the next five or six years.

4:30 p.m.

In so far as the comments raised by the member for Riverdale are concerned, I must tell him that it certainly is not the intention of this government to provide any funds, low interest loans or funds of any kind to those people living on the islands to help them upgrade the premises. I do not think that was ever considered, and I cannot conceive of us considering any arrangement in that regard.

It would certainly be my opinion that if anything is to be provided in the way of assistance for people who have to meet certain standards that assistance should be provided by the city of Toronto and that they should work out some kind of plan for the residents since they will be the ones who will be arranging the leases. Certainly, that would be our comment to the city of Toronto.

I just want to make it abundantly clear that we have no plans, and indeed I would not foresee any arrangement that would provide in this bill, or any other arrangement that would provide some kind of financial help for those people who are living on the islands in order that they can fulfil certain standards that they might be required to fulfil or, indeed as they will be required, to pay certain back taxes and back bills that are outstanding. I think they are going to have to make those arrangements themselves, or with the city of Toronto. I believe that is the proper way it should be handled.

Motion agreed to.

Ordered for third reading.

POWER CORPORATION AMENDMENT ACT

Mr. Andrewes, on behalf of Hon. Mr. Welch, moved second reading of Bill 86,

An Act to amend the Power Corporation Act.

Mr. Andrewes: Mr. Speaker, I have some opening comments. This bill amends the Power Corporation Act and the Public Utilities Act. As a result of this legislation, Ontario Hydro and the municipal hydro utilities will be able to carry out an energy conservation program as defined in the bill.

Specifically, Ontario Hydro will be authorized to carry out an energy conservation program in its rural service area, and make loans to its own customers and to customers of the municipal utilities for the purposes of the program. The bill also provides the authority for each municipal hydro utility to undertake or participate in an energy conservation program in its community, and to act as an agent for Ontario Hydro in making loans for carrying out the purposes of the program.

Ontario Hydro's residential energy advisory program, which would be implemented in accordance with the provisions of the bill, includes an assessment of insulation and weatherization of homes, an assessment of the electrical wiring system, an assessment of the home heating system and loans of up to $2,000 to carry out the recommended work. After the work is done, a follow-up inspection will be made to ensure that the customer will obtain proper performance from changes made in his home.

A second purpose of the bill is to enable Ontario Hydro to supply and sell steam and hot water as primary products on a similar basis to the production of electrical power. Ontario Hydro's thermal stations, both nuclear and fossil fired, produce great quantities of steam for use in the generation of electric power. This steam, particularly from nuclear stations, is produced at an attractive cost relative to alternative steam sources and therefore can contribute to industrial development near these stations.

The first major instance where this new authority will be used will be the Bruce energy centre. This major industrial development, outlined in the Board of Industrial Leadership and Development document, will rely on the provision of relatively inexpensive and inflation resistant steam from the Bruce nuclear power development. Ontario Hydro proposes to enter into an agreement with the Ontario Energy Corporation for the provision of steam once this bill has