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April 25, 2018

SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to

Standing Order 68, Tracey Perry, MHA for Fortune Bay - Cape La Hune, substitutes

for David Brazil, MHA for Conception Bay East - Bell Island.

Pursuant to

Standing Order 68, Jim Lester, MHA for Mount Pearl North, substitutes for Kevin

Parsons, MHA for Cape St. Francis.

The Committee met

at 5:30 p.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Haley):

Okay, we'll get underway.

Good

evening everyone. Thank you all for joining us.

We are

here this evening for the review of the Estimates of the Department of Children,

Seniors and Social Development, and Newfoundland and Labrador Housing.

We have

a couple of substitutions this evening. We have Ms. Perry substituting for Mr.

Brazil and Mr. Lester substituting for Mr. Parsons.

There

are three hours of time allotted for this review. We'll start by asking the

Committee to introduce themselves.

MS. PERRY:

Tracey Perry, MHA, Fortune

Bay - Cape La Hune.

MS. DRODGE:

Megan Drodge, Researcher with the Official Opposition caucus.

MR. LESTER:

Jim Lester, MHA, Mount Pearl North.

MR. REID:

Scott Reid, St. George's - Humber.

MS. ROGERS:

Gerry Rogers. I work for the good people of St. John's Centre.

MS. WILLIAMS:

Susan Williams, Researcher, NDP.

MS. PARSLEY:

Betty Parsley, MHA, Harbour Main.

MR. WARR:

Brian Warr, Baie Verte - Green Bay.

MR. DEAN:

Jerry Dean, MHA, Exploits.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

Minister Dempster, if you want to take a few minutes to provide some opening

remarks and introduce your officials, of course, there's a time allotment of 15

minutes for this. Once you' finished, we'll go back and forth.

The

first responder will have 15 minutes then we'll go back 10, 10, and 10 – or 10

and 10 this evening. We don't have the independent.

Ms.

Dempster.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm so

used to being in your seat that I feel like I want to call the Estimates. I'll

have to adjust.

I'll

provide some opening remarks but, first, I'll just start right here and ask my

staff to introduce themselves.

MR. GOSS:

Hi, I'm Glenn Goss, Interim

Chair of the Housing Corporation.

MS. HARDING:

Heather Harding, Director of Program Delivery.

MR. JACKMAN:

Doug Jackman, Director of Finance.

MS. COLMAN-SADD:

Vanessa Colman-Sadd, Director of Communications for Children, Seniors and Social

Development.

MR. BENNETT:

Derek Bennett, MHA, Lewisporte – Twillingate and parliamentary secretary.

MS. BOWRING:

Jenny Bowring, Communications Manager, Newfoundland and Labrador Housing.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Thank you, Staff.

Good

evening everyone. It's my first time as a minister for doing the Estimates so

you may want to be a little patient with me. I have a good team around me if

there's something that I don't know. We'll settle in for three hours.

I'll

just start by saying as Minister Responsible for the Newfoundland and Labrador

Housing Corporation I am pleased to appear before you to discuss this year's

Estimates for the corporation. The officials have already introduced themselves.

I'll say that our government understands that safe, stable and affordable

housing is fundamental to the socio-economic well-being of our people. Some of

you would have heard me say that a number of times in the House.

We also

recognize that finding and maintaining a suitable home can be a daily challenge

for some. In response, Budget 2018

has provided significant investment that enables the Newfoundland and Labrador

Housing Corporation to provide housing, programs and services to assist

households with low incomes, persons with disabilities, persons with complex

needs and those experiencing or most at risk of becoming homeless.

There

are two or three highlights from Budget 2018-19 that I'll share: $10.2 million

for maintenance, repair and upkeep for public housing properties to ensure safe

and high-quality homes are available to our tenants; and $3.6 million to

modernize and renovate public rental housing to sustain the housing inventory

over the long term. $2.7 million will be invested to leverage federal funding

and enable Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation to continue developing

affordable housing options under the Investment in Affordable Housing by

partnering with affordable housing developers in the private and non-profit

sectors. Since 2004, in excess of 1,500 new affordable units have been created

through this program. By 2019, an additional 135 units will be created. That

will be bringing the total to almost 1,700 units.

This

year's investment of $8.2 million in our Home Repair Program will enable us to

continue assisting households with low incomes by providing funding to help them

bring their homes up to minimum fire and life safety standards or improve

recipients are seniors. These options enable them to continue living

independently in their own homes and communities and close to family and

friends.

This

year's budget also provides $10.9 million for the Rent Supplement Program. This

includes an additional $2 million over 10 years to further increase the number

of rent supplements and to support a portable rent supplement pilot program,

which is something we have been hearing individuals ask for, for some time. This

program supports individuals and families with low incomes and individuals with

complex needs. By partnering with private landlords, the program enables

lower-income households to avail of increased housing options. Approximately 54

per cent of rent supplement housing units are occupied by seniors, so you can

see the theme. Seniors are a majority of the group that we provide a service to

here in most of the programs.

Budget 2018

has committed $8.6 million to the Supportive Living Program and the Provincial

Homelessness Fund. Currently, the Supportive Living Program enables 21

non-profit community-based groups, operating 34 projects throughout the

province, to prevent and end homelessness through what we refer to as a

housing-first approach, whereby individuals are housed with minimal conditions

and provided individualized supports to foster long-term housing stability. The

Provincial Homelessness Fund provides annual funding to non-profit

organizations, enabling them to provide on-site outreach services designed to

promote housing stability and ensure greater self-reliance among those that are

at-risk of homelessness.

Budget 2018

will enable the Housing Corporation to continue its $2 million investment to the

Home Energy Savings Program. We had a huge uptake from that program. Through

this program, grants are provided to low-income households for cost-effective

home upgrades designed to improve energy efficiency. This initiative is targeted

to assist electrically heated households with low incomes to upgrade their homes

and help them improve energy efficiency.

This

will be of particular importance as these households will be – it goes without

saying – among the most vulnerable to increased electricity costs when Muskrat

Falls comes online. Future electricity rate management is certainly a priority

for this government. We have instructed Nalcor to explore and pursue all options

to help us achieve this goal for the people of the province.

I don't

know how I'm doing for time, Madam Chair.

CHAIR:

Yeah, you' good.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Okay.

Our

government is also making it easier for new homebuyers to purchase their first

home. Through the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, we recently

announced a First-Time Homebuyer's Program, which includes financing for a down

payment and a $2,000 grant for eligible first-time homebuyers to purchase a new

or existing home.

The

First-Time Homebuyer's Program replaces the former Downpayment Assistance

Program. It has been extended – I think St. John's Centre had asked me this

question earlier – to the end of March in 2019. With available funding of $1.25

million provided by Budget 2018 , the

program will assist an estimated 100 households to secure home ownership.

Government has also allocated $1 million to NLHC to administer a new Home

Purchase Program which will provide $3,000 in grants to 330 households towards

the purchase of a newly constructed or never-sold home under $400,000, including

the HST.

Through

Budget 2018 government has continued

its $11.8 million commitment to support initiatives and not-for-profit groups

engaged in the delivery of transitional and emergency housing. This is something

new that's coming under Housing.

Effective June 1 NLHC will assume responsibility for the coordination of access

to emergency shelters and accommodations from the Department of Advanced

Education, Skills and Labour, as well as accountability and support of

transitional houses from the regional health authority. Those are two new areas

that will be folding in. We believe that moving more of the housing continuum

pieces under one roof will further improve collaboration and coordination of

emergency shelter and housing for the homeless.

minister responsible for NLHC I'm happy to share that we recently endorsed a

federal, provincial and territorial housing partnership framework. This

commitment addresses the housing needs of Canadians, particularly those of

vulnerable populations. Housing construction and repair investments – as we all

know here – provide important economic benefits for communities and critical

housing assistance to those in need. This endorsement enables us to negotiate a

new partnership agreement and deliver National Housing Strategy funding through

our forthcoming provincial housing and homelessness plan this fall. Our

allocation will be finalized through a bilateral agreement. I am confident in

saying that I believe it will represent historic levels of investment to this

province.

As part

of The Way Forward , government

committed to review NLHC's programs and services. The review primarily focused

on public sector efficiency and better services. Extensive consultation and

input from community partners, tenants, clients and employees was critical to

the final review initiatives. The review was conducted to realize efficiencies,

improve services and streamline the organization with no negative impact on

clients on the front line, optimize federal and provincial funding in the

delivery of programs and services and ensure the organization's mandate reflects

current priorities.

I do

have a final sheet to run through if time permits.

CHAIR:

Yeah, you' good. You have

five minutes.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Efficiencies and savings of

$1.4 million annually were realized through elimination of 14 of the 76

management positions at NLHC – an 18 per cent reduction. This renewed structure

reduces annual operating costs while continuing to deliver housing programs and

services to those most in need.

The

review has helped identify ways to provide better services, including – and I'll

mention five items here: Extend the First-Time Homebuyer's Program which

replaces the former Downpayment Assistance Program, improve the Rent Supp

Program, increase the supply of affordable housing, improve supports to

community centres and partner with the community to prevent and end

homelessness.

As an

organization, NLHC has been and will continue to work with community

stakeholders to develop housing initiatives for the people of this province.

This is an approach which has enabled us to create the comprehensive policies

and programs which are addressing the complex challenges associated with

providing safe and affordable housing to people with low incomes and to those

most at risk of becoming homeless. We are seeing results from this approach and

we will continue to build on our current success.

Thank

you for listening to me for 12 minutes. I now welcome the opportunity to have

myself or staff answer any questions you might have.

CHAIR:

Mr. Lester.

MR. LESTER:

Thank you for those

(inaudible).

Could I

have the privilege of getting a copy of your speaking notes, please?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes, not a problem.

MR. LESTER:

Thank you.

relation to the increase of Grants and Subsidies, how much of the increase is

due to the increased cost of providing the same services versus increase in

funding levels?

MS. DEMPSTER:

I'm having trouble hearing

you.

MR. LESTER:

Oh, sorry. I think I have a

bit of an echo.

relation to Grants and Subsidies there is a substantial increase over that of

last year. How much of that is directly related to new funding versus the

increased cost of providing the same services from last year.

MS. DEMPSTER:

I'm going to let Glenn speak

to that, just to make sure I don't –

MR. LESTER:

Sure.

MR. GOSS:

If I might, I believe I

understand your question. If I don't, you can let me know. It's essentially new

funding. There's little in the way of increased budgets due to increased costs.

Most of the increases to our grant have to do with, for example, the provincial

portion of the Social Infrastructure Fund, which was a federal-provincial

partnership for '16-'17 and '17-'18.

$14

million of that is provincial money that is going to be expended this particular

year. As the minister mentioned, $11.8 million comes to us from Health and

Community Services and AES as a result of us taking on transitional and

emergency housing.

There

are a number of other items in here: the Home Energy Savings Program as the

minister announced and the Home Purchase Program as the minister announced. I'm

sure Doug will straighten me out, but there's no funding in terms of the cost of

programs increasing, so the budget increasing, if that's what you' asking.

MR. LESTER:

Yes, that was my question.

It's a

money transfer from AES?

MR. GOSS:

That's a big part of it.

MR. LESTER:

That's almost half and then

the other half is the infrastructure fund that exists.

MR. GOSS:

Is the infrastructure funding, yeah. Then you have the Home Purchase Program,

the energy assistance program and one or two other items.

MR. LESTER:

Okay, great.

Those

are basically my financial questions there for now; I would like to have the

opportunity to ask at a later time upon further review of the speaker notes. I

do have some general questions. If you could provide answers for those, it would

be appreciated.

relation to staffing, how many new hires were there in Housing overall last

year?

MR. GOSS:

Generally, we've replaced – I don't have the number, Sir. What I can tell you is

that our staff complement has reduced, from one year to the next, from 343 last

year to 323 this year. It's a reduction of 20.

However, we have hired new individuals. If, for example, an employee retires or

leaves for whatever reason from a particular position and we find that we need

another type of position filled – for example, the transition and emergency

housing is coming to Housing so we need somebody to be able to take that over –

the funding from the vacated position could be put towards that. It's a new hire

but no net increase in employees. As matter of fact, over the past year we've

had a net decrease in employees of 20.

MR. LESTER:

Okay.

MR. GOSS:

I hope that answers your question.

MR. LESTER:

Yes, it does.

I may

be out of line in asking this – but I, like the minister, it's my first time

here doing this – are there any initiatives within the department to look at

cost efficiencies attained from contracting out certain services that employees

of the corporation are now providing?

MR. GOSS:

Yeah, I think it's safe to say that we constantly do that.

As we

spoke earlier, our programming budgets have not increased; however, sometimes

the needs have increased. We are looking for better ways to spend the money.

Sometimes the better way is to contract, depending on the details of the job;

sometimes it's better to do it with internal staff. We' constantly looking at

that sort of thing, adjusting our manpower and our staffing to meet whatever

need comes up.

So to

answer your question, it's difficult to tell you if we have a particular plan.

We' constantly assessing where best to spend the money.

MR. LESTER:

It is a process.

MR. GOSS:

It is a process, yeah.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Just to build on that one. We contract some services right now, right?

MR. LESTER:

Mm-mmm.

MR. GOSS:

Yes, yeah.

MS. DEMPSTER:

In some instances, yeah.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yeah. One thing, too (inaudible) operations in certain communities in

(inaudible), 100 percent is contracted because none of our own employees are

close to the locations. So in that case – and there are certain types of

services that we completely contract out.

MR. LESTER:

Would those services be advertised in the form of a tender or do you have a list

of suppliers you just call?

MR. JACKMAN:

Yeah, depending on the estimated monetary value of the services, it could take

the form of a tender. It could go through a quotation process, a request for

quotations, or it also could be us relying on a province wide – like a

Government of Newfoundland standing offer, depending on the nature.

MR. LESTER:

Okay, great.

How

many units have been converted from – I understand there's a big transition from

multi-bedroom family units to singular, often one or two people living alone in

a unit. Do we have outlying goals as to how many units we want to do per year,

and did we meet that quota last year?

MR. GOSS:

(Inaudible) but a few years ago we had a pilot project. What we call it is

regeneration, where we regenerate a four-bedroom unit into two twos, or a three

and a one. That sort of thing.

MR. LESTER:

Yeah.

MR. GOSS:

We did that with $1 million three or four years ago. I don't have the details

with me, but we did one here in St. John's, in Mundy Pond area, where we

renovated a duplex. It is two three-bedroom duplexes to two two-bedrooms on the

bottom and two ones on the top without changing the footprint of the building.

So we got four units out of two.

We did

a similar one in Mount Pearl on Spruce Avenue where we did a similar type of

thing. We got four units out of two. In Corner Brook we did one where we took

three units and made two out of it. One being on the bottom being fully

accessible. That's why we assumed the second unit to give them more room, and

the upper one being a single unit.

What we

found was that it addresses the need of our wait-list. It helps address the need

of our wait-list where 90 per cent of them are one and two bedroom requirements,

and 80 some-odd per cent of our units are three and four bedrooms. So it helps

address the demographic need, but it does cost money, obviously. I don't want to

speak out of school, but going forward we' hopeful that as part of the national

strategy that will also be a significant portion of what we do, helping us meet

the demographic need though that type of regeneration.

MS. DEMPSTER:

(Inaudible) weeks ago the

provincial and territorial ministers endorsed the principles of the housing

framework, the multilateral, but now each province will start the work of

working out the bilaterals. Some of that is to be determined as we move along in

that process.

MR. LESTER:

Okay.

Again,

a question: Has there been a comparison done to a demolition rebuild versus a

reno? Is there a big difference cost wise?

MR. GOSS:

There's not a big difference, generally speaking. However, in some instances,

again, it will depend on what we' dealing with. We have in situations done a

complete strip down to the foundation and rebuilt. We have done that. Generally,

that has to do with multiunit buildings where there's been extensive rot, that

sort of thing. We've done that.

We have

built some units. We built four over in the Vickers Avenue area, which we made

them accessible, universal design and accessible, and we tried to integrate them

into the neighbourhood. We' also replacing a number of units that, if you may

remember the fire in Froude Avenue area. We' replacing them, trying to fit it in

with – so we'd replace them with new.

We have

built some new in Corner Brook. Again, that's another area we can certainly look

at going forward. In terms of a plan, there's got to be funding and land

associated with any major plan going forward and we' hopeful that's going to be

addressed in the coming strategy.

MS. DEMPSTER:

I'm not sure if you said

this already, but we have just under 5,600 units and I think I'm correct in

saying that about 80 per cent of them are considered in good condition.

MR. LESTER:

Okay.

All

right. Again, you may have said this in your speaker's notes. I apologize if

it's repetition, if the answer is already presented.

What

stage are we at in allocation of the new housing construction and purchase

program? Has any of those funds been allocated as of yet or is the deadline and

applications still rolling?

MS. DEMPSTER:

I can let Heather speak to

it directly.

What I

understand, applications are coming in and they' just starting the process but

no money has actually been paid out yet.

MS. HARDING:

That's correct. The Home

Purchase Program –

MR. LESTER:

Yes.

MS. HARDING:

– we've received about 25

applications to date for that. For the First-Time Homebuyer's Program –

MR. LESTER:

Yes

MS. HARDING:

– we've received 151

applications and have actually closed the program. So we' in the process of

processing those.

MR. LESTER:

Okay.

Will

the processing and evaluation of applications, is that done entirely by

bureaucracy or are MHAs involved, that type of thing?

MS. HARDING:

For the First-Time Homebuyer's Program and the Home Purchase Program, that's

strictly done on first-come, first-served basis, and if they meet the criteria

there's no other evaluation. So it's strictly in-house.

MR. LESTER:

Okay, great.

Have we

noticed any real change in demand in any specific geographical area throughout

the province?

MS. DEMPSTER:

I guess if we look at wait-lists, we've got about 765 that are on the wait-list

and most of that pressure – and I guess historically this is how it's always

been, maybe this is where the population numbers are – it would be the Avalon,

correct?

MR. LESTER:

Yes, okay.

That

number of people on the wait-list, is that like an historical average or would

it –?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Actually, I'm not here very

long in this position, but I understand our numbers on the wait-list are down

significantly. We have 765 and, I'm not sure, if you go back a couple of years

that was much higher, right?

MR. GOSS:

Yes, that's essentially correct. The numbers have decreased. Historically, they'

lower in most of the geographical areas but the percentage is still the same

across the board. For argument's sake, we have the most wait-lists in St.

John's. Then you have the Corner Brook area, then you have Central and so on

into the smaller communities. The percentage probably hasn't changed but the

actual figure itself has reduced.

MR. LESTER:

There's basically a general

change overall from throughout the whole province. It's not on the Avalon we'

seeing an exponential spike versus an exponential decline in west or north.

MR. GOSS:

Yes, if I may, Minister.

You'

right. It has reduced across the province, probably relatively equally in terms

of percentage. I think I could probably relate that to the fact that we'

building probably almost 1,700 affordable housing units across the province

through private and non-profit. They are taking people who are eligible to apply

for housing. They are impacting our wait-lists also. I think that's probably

where the most significant impact has been over the last number of years.

MR. LESTER:

Of the 5,600 units, how many

of those will be considered accessible, barrier free?

MR. GOSS:

If you'll just give me one

minute. Yeah, there you go.

MS. DEMPSTER:

There's a breakdown by region, by private sector and non-profit. Under the

Investment in Affordable Housing 270 fully accessible units have been

constructed in 47 communities across the province, in both the private and – I

have the breakdown as well which you will get when you get the binder at the

end.

MR. LESTER:

Is an energy audit something that you would consider for all of the Housing

units, an individual energy audit on each unit?

MR. GOSS:

It isn't something that

we've started a plan for, but it is something that whenever we do major

renovations, it is built into the plan.

MR. LESTER:

Okay.

MR. GOSS:

There's a certain R-value. The lighting that goes in is considered energy

efficient. Any items or appliances that may be put in would be energy efficient.

When we go in to do just general maintenance on a unit – for argument's sake,

somebody moves out. Before somebody moves in we do general maintenance to make

it ready where we can. But we' not going to tear out walls to increase the

R-value just because somebody is moving in.

Where

there is new construction, we built it into the plans. There has to be energy

efficiency components. As well, anything that we' doing major renovations on, as

I said, we'll do energy-efficiency components.

CHAIR:

Thank you. Your time has expired.

Ms.

Rogers?

MS. ROGERS:

Thank you very much.

Of the

765 people on the wait-list – and I'm sure 760 of them live in St. John's Centre

– who's on the wait-list? Is it seniors, is it for single, one-bedroom housing?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Twenty-six per cent of all the applications are from seniors 65 and over.

MS. ROGERS:

Only 26? Oh.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Only 26 per cent. That's surprising, yeah.

MS. ROGERS:

What other –

MS. DEMPSTER:

It does say 80 per cent in St. John's Centre – no.

MS. ROGERS:

It probably does. I know I have them all living with me.

But

also people looking for smaller units, for single units?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes, that's fair to say. I guess historically we had big families and we had big

houses. Now we have this misfit because we have a housing stock that's larger

and we have a wait-list of people that are looking for one and two bedroom.

MS. ROGERS:

Yeah and it's very difficult and, then, also finding those kinds of units in the

private market as well.

MS. DEMPSTER:

I believe 80 per cent that's waiting is looking for one and two?

MR. GOSS:

Ninety per cent.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Ninety per cent.

MS. ROGERS:

Ninety per cent.

MR. GOSS:

Ninety per cent of our wait-list is looking for one or two bedrooms.

MS. ROGERS:

I know this is somewhat

controversial; it's been sort of slippery potential idea. I've come across folks

who want to share. Who aren't family members, but who are friends and who are

single adults who are looking to possibly share. Is there any consideration of

looking at that again?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes, that is something that

we' very aware of and recognize the need that people have not wanted to live

together for fear of losing their benefits and things like that. That is

something we' considering or we've implemented?

MS. HARDING:

Considering.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Considering, yeah. We've had

a number of conversations around it.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

imagine that's a conversation both with Housing and with AES, is it, or Income

Support?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, great.

For

some folks it's about living not only more economically, but also happier

because they have company.

MS. DEMPSTER:

You have the companionship.

That's right, yeah.

Then

you' not one person paying the heat bill and things like that.

MS. ROGERS:

Absolutely.

To the

point that Jim had brought up about the energy audits, it's something,

certainly, that a group like Choices could do to actually do the energy audits.

I think they've done work similar to that or the Conservation Corps has. It

might be an interesting contract with non-profit organizations to actually do

the energy audits.

MS. DEMPSTER:

I'll let Heather speak to

that.

MS. HARDING:

Actually, a couple of years

ago – and over a number of years – we had Train for Trades do some energy

upgrades in our basements.

MS. ROGERS:

That's right.

MS. HARDING:

Quite a few, 300 or 400

maybe, energy upgrades in our units.

MS. ROGERS:

That's great.

people are going to do energy audits – they might be able to do the energy

audits as well. What is the wait-list like for accessible units?

MS. DEMPSTER:

I don't have the breakdown

get that figure.

MS. ROGERS:

Yeah, I assume it's a pretty

big challenge.

MR. GOSS:

The number of individuals

who come to the Housing Corporation, specifically for the reason of

MS. ROGERS:

That's right.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Up until the end of March

2018 we had 11 requests for transfer for either a fully accessible unit or a

unit requiring mobility modifications.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Thank you very much.

MS. DEMPSTER:

I'll also add that we have

42 senior buildings. That's 430 units. All but two, just 22 units, are either

one level or have an elevator.

MS. ROGERS:

Minister, when you say

units, are those all units owned by Newfoundland and Labrador Housing or that

includes also …?

MS. DEMPSTER:

No.

MS. ROGERS:

No, rent supps.

Okay,

great.

I have

some other questions here. Can you describe a little bit the emergency housing

that you have taken on? What does that encompass?

MS. DEMPSTER:

We' folding in – it's going

to be new – from AESL. Housing is going to be the emergency shelters and

transition houses. Over in Newfoundland and Labrador Housing they have this full

suite of programs; they deal with low income and they deal with seniors. It just

seemed to make sense – as we talk about Housing First – that you would have this

in-house expertise because you have the units and then you have sometimes the

challenges that come with those tenants. It will all be housed under one roof.

MS. ROGERS:

When you' saying transition

houses would that be, for instance, Iris Kirby, or is this –?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, so they' all going to

come under Housing.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes.

MS. ROGERS:

The emergency housing: Are

they units or is it money to house somebody in an emergency shelter?

MS. DEMPSTER:

That would be like the

shelters around the province right now.

MS. ROGERS:

Right.

Also, a

lot of emergency housing is not just the shelters; it is places, for instance,

on University Avenue, people in the private sector who provide emergency

shelter. Is it?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes.

MS. ROGERS:

We've seen the difference

between what's on the private market for emergency housing and shelter, the

difference between the quality there and what's provided by non-profit

organizations.

question is: How are you going to deal – because some of them are in my district

and I've been in them, like rooming houses. Are you dealing with the rooming

houses as well?

question about that is: What's going to happen? Something has to happen around

the standards that are outside of – I know that we don't yet have our

Residential Tenancies Act renewed. That's one thing but if we, as the public

service, are paying for emergency placements and emergency housing, and there

are horrendous, horrendous situations that some of our most vulnerable people

are living in and that money is public money to house them. So if this is moving

to your responsibility, how are you going to address some of those issues?

MS. DEMPSTER:

I think primarily what you'

speaking to would be the placements, the rooming houses that would fall under

AESL. So myself nor my staff could speak to that. Is that your understanding as

well? Yeah. That would be under –

MS. ROGERS:

So that wouldn't come under

your jurisdiction.

MS. DEMPSTER:

No.

MS. ROGERS:

But some of it is emergency

housing as well. So the private emergency housing is different than an emergency

shelter that you' talking about.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Well, it's emergency

shelters.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Just the specific

shelters.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes, emergency shelters. I

have visited a number of the shelters around the province and I have to say

they' pretty –

MS. ROGERS:

They' fabulous.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes, they' fabulous, yeah.

Very decent places.

MS. ROGERS:

They' just really good, well

run. Yeah.

So this

doesn't encompass those.

MS. DEMPSTER:

No.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Great.

I have

to put in – okay, thank you.

How

many units of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing are vacant right now waiting for

repairs?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Unavailable for rent,

waiting for major repair would be 69 as of the first of April. There's a – the

total.

OFFICIAL:

(Inaudible) yes, that's

available.

MS. DEMPSTER:

I don't know. She asked how

many are waiting for repair.

OFFICIAL:

Okay.

MS. ROGERS:

Yes, sort of unavailable I

guess.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Pardon me?

MS. ROGERS:

Yes, unavailable.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes. So units unavailable:

there would be 69 waiting for major repair; nine that are used for emergency

housing; two that are for redevelopment; four pending sales, and there are three

currently being used as office.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. What was the four

there again?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Four pending sales.

MS. ROGERS:

Pending sales. So those

units are being sold?

MS. DEMPSTER:

I can speak to one, and it

probably aligns with all four. In some places we have some units that are very

dilapidated, really beyond repair, and if it's in a rural, for instance, someone

may want to buy the home, tear it down, and at least they can rebuild on a plot

of land that has access to water and sewer. I've examples of that even in my

district, and I'm sure my rural colleagues would as well. Or they may want to

buy and put a lot of money into fixing it up.

MS. ROGERS:

And where are the four that

are pending sales?

MR. JACKMAN:

All four of the units, actually, are in Labrador. One is on Low Road in

Cartwright. That's currently subject to a tender as we speak, and the other

three are in Port Hope Simpson.

MS. DEMPSTER:

(Inaudible.)

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes. Yeah, there's one –

MS. DEMPSTER:

(Inaudible.)

MR. JACKMAN:

Yeah. I think one of those

units, I believe on Notley Drive, has been vacant in excess of 10 years. So a

long, long time.

MS. ROGERS:

Thank you.

CHAIR:

Your time has expired.

should also make note that we have Mr. Paul Lane joining us as well.

Mr.

Lane, do you have any questions?

MR. LANE:

I will a little a bit later.

CHAIR:

Wait until the end?

MR. LANE:

I thought this was supposed

to be starting at 6, so I'm a little – I don't even know where we' to.

CHAIR:

Okay.

We' on

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing.

MR. LANE:

Okay. Anyway, you can go

ahead and if I got a couple questions after that –

CHAIR:

Okay. We'll go back to you

after.

Mr.

Lester.

MR. LESTER:

(Inaudible) program. The

applications were due February 28. Can the Minister please tell us how many

applications have been received? Could we be provided with a list of applicants,

not copies of proposals just simply the names?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Sorry, I just needed clarity

on what you were asking. I thought I knew the answer.

The

call that we went out open to profit and non-for-profit. We had $6 million that

we were working with, and we had $42 million in requests. I believe it was

around 115 applications.

Those

applications, when they come in, go through a whole process of being scored

in-house again by an inner house working committee that got expertise in

engineering and program delivery and things like that. They look at the

technical aspect, the equity, need and demand in an area, what the current

vacancy rate might be in an area. Then they' all scored on a sheet and Housing

does the best job they can with allocating based on that.

MR. LESTER:

Are there any plans to

increase the budget if there are any funds available throughout the department?

MS. DEMPSTER:

It's my understanding that whenever we have gone out with a call for affordable

housing, whether it's private or non-profit, we've always had a tremendous

uptake. We' a rapidly aging province and people want to get out of their houses

and into those units.

As we

work out the details of the bilateral agreements, I'm certain we will continue

to build money into the budget so that we can continue to go out and have those

calls in the future.

OFFICIAL:

(Inaudible.)

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yeah. That's right, yeah.

It's

also tied as a requirement to the National Housing Strategy.

MR. LESTER:

Okay.

MS. DEMPSTER:

They want all the provinces

to continue doing this.

MR. LESTER:

Yeah.

there any specific language or regulations as it pertains to community gardens

on Housing properties?

MS. DEMPSTER:

I think it's very

therapeutic.

MR. LESTER:

Yeah.

MS. DEMPSTER:

I'm not aware. I'll look to

my staff.

OFFICIAL:

No, I –

MR. LESTER:

That may be something we

could consider. As you say, it's very therapeutic and it would provide people

with fresh produce. In some cases they would probably not be able to afford it.

It would encourage people to take more pride in their properties. Even if they

are tenants of the Housing Corporation, it would still improve their whole

aspect.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes, and I can tell you in

CSSD department, in our Healthy Living division, we have been funding and

supporting quite a number of community gardens around the province, yeah.

MR. LESTER:

Okay.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Which helps with food

security and healthier living, yeah.

MR. LESTER:

Actually, that's all the

questions I have there now.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Thank you.

Yeah,

go ahead.

MS. ROGERS:

You had mentioned about the

Froude Avenue fire that (inaudible) development. Just describe what you'll be

doing there.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Froude Avenue, I'll let you

speak to it, yes.

MR. GOSS:

We' in the process of

designing. I believe – you caught me off guard in terms of the numbers, but we'

replacing the same number that –

OFFICIAL:

(Inaudible.)

MR. GOSS:

Eight came down or eight are

going up.

MS. ROGERS:

Eight came down.

MR. GOSS:

Yeah. Eight came down, eight are going up. We' going to try to build it so that

it fits the skyline. It's not going to – you know, that's the intent. And there

be – have universal designs. So that's helpful also.

MS. ROGERS:

Oh, good.

And

will they be one, two-bedroom units, or –

MR. JACKMAN:

They' all two-bedroom units.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

So will

they be exactly the same style as the housing in Froude Avenue now, or –?

MR. GOSS:

That was a debate we had in-house; but, yeah, it's going to be a similar style.

I don't believe it's going to be just a block, two stories. There were some

people who thought that might be a good idea and some people who didn't.

I can

certainly get the details for you. I believe it's going to be similar in terms

of structure but I don't believe it's going to be identical. I can certainty get

that for you.

MS. ROGERS:

Great. Thank you.

The

units awaiting repair, 69 major, is there a plan to have those all repaired this

year?

MS. DEMPSTER:

I think it's safe to say we

wouldn't be able to do all of that in one year. Budget restraints would not

allow because your money is all spread out so much for each of the different

programs.

I will

let Doug –

MR. GOSS:

If I might just jump in – I'm sure Doug can add – I will say that some of those

69 major repair are in areas where there is also no demand.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

MR. GOSS:

We' not going to fix them up if there isn't a demand. Depending on how long that

continues, we may have to look at alternative uses for them.

We have

other areas where the units are in good shape and there's simply no demand, yet

they' available for rent. Some of the 69 – a goodly portion, as a matter of

fact, some in Labrador West, some in the Burin and Marystown area and some in

the Corner Brook area – are major repair, but there is also no demand in the

particular area.

MS. ROGERS:

Would we be able to have a

list of …?

MR. GOSS:

Sure.

MS. ROGERS:

Great. Thank you.

MR. GOSS:

A list of the major repair vacancies?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes, and it's here anyway.

MS. ROGERS:

I believe in the budget

there was an indication that there are going to be two new social workers. Is it

two new social work positions?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes, shared between the five

community centres.

MS. ROGERS:

In St. John's?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, great.

MS. DEMPSTER:

We had gone down –

MS. ROGERS:

There's certainly a need.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes, maybe September – I

have to look to my EA – it was early days we went down and sat with the

executive directors. I was pretty impressed with the really valuable work they'

doing. That was their ask at that time and we were happy to have been able to

support that request.

MS. ROGERS:

Great.

The

funding to community organizations and the tenants organizations, Minister, you

said that's changing in '18-'19, is it? There was an increase?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Funding to…?

MS. ROGERS:

The community centres. Was

there an increase in funding then for '18-'19?

MS. DEMPSTER:

No, it's the additional

support of the two social workers.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Thank you.

The

additional 100 portable rent supplements, how will those be allocated and what

areas will they be?

MS. DEMPSTER:

We'll break it down into 50

and 50. Fifty will go to the wait-list, as those people come in and 50 will go

to the existing –

MS. HARDING:

Fifty will be for people who are currently living in situations and they put in

for a transfer request.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

Are

they specifically for seniors?

MS. HARDING:

No.

MS. ROGERS:

No? Okay, great.

Has

that process unrolled yet? Has that started? Where are we with numbers now?

MS. HARDING:

For the portable rent supplement program we' up to about 15 participants at this

point in time. It's been started about three weeks so we' about 10 per cent of

the way.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, great. Thank you.

I have

a lot of requests for that in my district, particularly with seniors looking for

being able to stay – some of them to stay where they are because their spouse

may have died.

That's

great. Thank you.

I think

I may be done here. Can we have a list of properties that were sold in '17-'18?

MR. JACKMAN:

I can speak to that, actually, because I have that information in front of me.

During

the fiscal year ended March 31, 2018, there were actually no social housing

units sold. In terms of land – we call this merely more back land, very small

pieces – we sold some rear land at 14 to 16 Spruce Avenue in Mount Pearl, it's

only 185 square metres; and on 26 Humber Valley Road, Corner Brook, 102 square

metres. Those were the only two sales transactions we had with respect to land

during the fiscal year-end of March 31, 2018.

MS. ROGERS:

Yeah, I think there was more sold the previous year.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, in the fiscal year-end of March 31, 2017, there were quite a few sold. They

were all in – I can't name off all the communities but they were all in rural

areas of the province.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Thank you.

I just

want to take a minute to say thank you very much. I know how wonderful the staff

are at Newfoundland and Labrador Housing. The staff also does a lot of volunteer

work and takes such pride in the work they do. I know how hard it is to be a

landlord and how important the work that you' doing is for the people of the

province, particularly people who are having such a hard time financially and

needing a safe place to live.

Thank

you to you. Thank you, also, to your staff who have done great work.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

Mr.

Lane, do you have anything?

MR. LANE:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thank

my colleagues for leave to ask a few questions. I apologize for not getting here

earlier. The

schedule that was given to me was 6 p.m. but I believe some

agreement was made to go 5:30 and I was not informed. Where I'm not officially

on the committee I suppose that's how I was overlooked. Anyway, that's why I was

late arriving.

Minister, I just have a couple of questions. First of all, I'm glad that with

the rent supps it now goes with the person as opposed to the house. I think

that's a really good move. I've had a number of situations with people where

that would have benefitted them. I just say that I think that was a positive

thing and I'm glad to see there are more rent supps.

It may

have already been asked, I may have missed it, but how many rent supps were

there and how many additional rent supps do we have now? Was it 100, I heard you

say?

MS. DEMPSTER:

$2 million over 10 years.

MR. LANE:

$2 million for rent supps

over 10 years?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes.

MR. LANE:

What was it before? I

understand there was an increase, right?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yeah, it's about 30 rent

supps.

MR. JACKMAN:

It's approximately 30 rent

supps.

MR. LANE:

Thirty additional people per

year would get a rent supp? Is that what we' saying?

MR. JACKMAN:

It's 30, I'll say,

households for a 10-year period.

MR. LANE:

Additional ones.

MR. JACKMAN:

Yes, an additional 30.

MR. LANE:

Okay and how many did we –

MR. JACKMAN:

Not 300, I should say.

MR. LANE:

No, roughly how many were

there before the addition?

MS. DEMPSTER:

In the 2017-18 rent supp

budget: 1,790 rent supplements.

MR. LANE:

1,790.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes.

MR. LANE:

We' going to go up to 1,820

then, or roughly.

MS. DEMPSTER:

It was close to $10,775,000

before that.

MR. LANE:

Okay.

Those

additional 30, is that on a first-come, first-served basis, or is it based on so

many on the Avalon, so many in other parts of the province and some in Labrador?

How does that work?

MS. DEMPSTER:

It's across the province.

MR. LANE:

It's across the province,

but is it broken down into first-come, first-served? Or is it like so many for

St. John's area, so many for …?

MS. HARDING:

We looked at the demand, did

an analysis and broke it down geographically by need and demand, basically.

MR. LANE:

Okay.

Still,

if someone needed a rent supplement, they'd just go on a wait-list like they do

now, but hopefully the wait-list would be a little bit faster because of the

additional rent supps. Is that the idea?

MS. HARDING:

Perhaps I should clarify

that you actually don't go on a wait-list for a rent supplement; you apply to

Housing for housing. Whatever best suits your need at the time, that's what

you'll be offered. It could be one of our own units or it could be a rent

supplement.

MR. LANE:

Yeah, okay.

terms of this program, Minister, I can't remember what it's called per se but

the $400,000, basically, for 10 units over 10 years, $40,000 per unit if someone

wanted to build housing.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Affordable housing.

MR. LANE:

I know in Mount Pearl as an

example, they built some units down at the bottom of Municipal Avenue. It was

done by a private developer. They availed of the $400,000 and the City of Mount

Pearl actually gave them a piece of vacant land that had been there for a long

time, so they made it even more attractive.

When it

was done, the idea was that we need more affordable housing for seniors, in

particular. A lot of seniors, certainly, in Mount Pearl have been there their

whole lives. They don't want to leave Mount Pearl; they want to stay in their

community because of their friends, neighbours and programs.

The

thought was that it would be affordable housing for them, but the reality of it

under that program, of course, is that they knocked $350 a month off the rent or

whatever it is for 10 units. At the end of the day it was a case of: we would

have charged you $1,200, now you' getting it for $900 or $850 or whatever. That

amount is still too high. What's really needed is more housing like we have up

at Masonic Park as an example, where it's more affordable senior's housing.

Maybe it's $500 or $600 a month, whatever the case might be.

This

program, with these private developers, is really not filling the need of

affordable senior's housing. It's fine if you' a senior and you've got a private

pension and you have some money that you can afford to do this, but if you'

someone on basic OAS and CPP, even with this program it's not what you would

really call affordable subsidized housing the same as someone might get up at

the Masonic Park.

With

that as a backdrop I'm wondering, because I know co-op housing, CHANAL, had put

in an application recently, I think it was for Maccarthy Crescent or it was

somewhere in Power's Pond. They were turned down. They were told there were more

applications than there was money available. Co-op housing is more of a

charitable – I don't know if charitable is the word for it, but it's a

non-profit organization and it's more about providing affordable housing as

opposed to a private developer. Not to mention the fact co-op housing is an

ongoing venture, it's not like 10 years and then after 10 years it goes away. Of

course, under this program after 10 years the developer owns the property and

then he or she can charge market rates.

They

got turned down. By the same token, private developers – who are making a profit

off this and get it at the end of the day, they own this property – are getting

in ahead of them. It's a long

preamble, I know, but my question is: Shouldn't

there be or is there a policy that says under this pot of money, while it may be

open for non-profit and for private individuals, if a non-profit comes along –

and I don't care who had the application in first – and can demonstrate that we'

going maintain low rents indefinitely, versus a private person saying I'm going

to do this, I can qualify the program for 10 years, and even before then it's

not as low a rent as a non-profit, then shouldn't they get it first because the

need is about providing affordable housing to seniors?

I'm not

sure the private developer really fits. It could lower the rent for some people

but does it really deal with the senior citizen who is on a totally fixed income

and can't afford even the reduced rent from the developer. That was a mouthful I

know.

MS. DEMPSTER:

I'll make an attempt to

respond. If I miss anything, then staff can jump in. I've only been in the

portfolio nine months, but during that time since I've been here a couple of

things: you go out with a budget; you only have a certain amount. When you go

private you can build a lot more units. We already have a full understanding of

the tremendous need for additional units in the province.

actually, myself was wondering as an individual – never mind being a minister –

where are we getting the best value. What's the right thing to be doing? I've

reached out and talked to a number of people that are living in these units. I

think we have 64 partner-managed housing units here around the province as well.

They may not be 100 per cent across the board, but the response I've been given

many times is if I have Aunt Millie and Uncle Joe that moves in to my apartment

and they are there 10 years, I'm not jacking their rent up double in 10 years.

I've established a rapport, I have a relationship. You' out in rural parts.

There

will always be individuals that are more passionate about one or the other. If

you come from the private sector you may think private is better. If you come

from – and there's no doubt it, we have a lot of non-profits that are doing some

really valuable work because they not only provide a unit but sometimes there

are wraparound services and supports to the individual in the unit as well.

MR. LANE:

Yeah. Minister, I think

there's a couple of issues here. First of all, if I'm a private developer –

yeah, I might not jack up the rent on Uncle Joe and Aunt Nellie as you said, but

at the point and time in their life when, based on their age, they go and they

do this, their next step in 10 year's time may be – in theory, a lot of them may

not even be there the whole 10 years. They might be moved on into a nursing home

or whatever, not everybody of course but when you' looking at the age.

Then of

course the next person comes along, once that 10 years is up, it's not like I

had them for 10 years. Do you know what I'm saying? That's one thing. I guess

the crux of my question is around the fact that if we have this pot of money,

and I know there's a limited pot of money, and you have a non-for-profit

organization, I'll just use CHANAL as an example – it could the Knights of

Columbus, it could be the Masons.

The

Masons could say we want to expand Masonic Park. They have lots of land there

that they could do it if they chose to do so. They' keeping the rents lower than

what a private developer, even under this program, is keeping it. Their housing

is truly affordable, seniors housing.

I guess

my point is or my question is: Should they not be given a priority to say

someone who can demonstrate that we' going to have indefinite lower rents

because we' non-profit, then they should get the money first. If there's

anything left over and a private developer wants to do something and can make

the rent a little bit lower than market, then fine, kick in after the fact, but

whoever is going to provide the lowest rent should have the priority, I guess

would be my point and maybe my question.

MS. DEMPSTER:

I'm going to let Heather,

who deals with this everyday, respond this time.

MR. LANE:

Yeah.

MS. HARDING:

Just further to your comment

about the rental rates. They are actually set by CMHC. So the developer doesn't

determine what they' going to charge. CMHC sets that rate and they' not able to

go above it.

If you

want to compare the non-profit versus the private, we had a proposal call in

2016 for $6.125 million that went strictly non-profit and we were able to

develop 45 units. In the $6 million one, where there's actually a mix between

non-profit and private, we should get almost 100 units. There's that balance as

well.

Also,

with the affordable housing there are income restrictions. So these private

developers have to respond to people under a certain income limit as well.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

The

time has expired.

Are

there any other questions?

Ms.

Rogers, do you have anything else?

MS. ROGERS:

(Inaudible.)

CHAIR:

Okay.

since there are no further questions, I now ask the Clerk to recall 1.1.01.

CLERK (Murphy) :

1.1.01.

CHAIR:

Shall 1.1.01 carry?

All

those in favour, ‘aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, ‘nay.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Nay.

motion, subhead 1.1.01 carried.

CLERK: Total.

CHAIR: Shall

the total carry?

All

those in favour, ‘aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR: All those

against, ‘nay.'

Carried.

motion, Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, total heads, carried.

CHAIR:

Mr. Lane, I just wanted to

clarify the Estimates times. Every day, other than Wednesdays, it's 6 p.m., but

on Wednesdays it's 5:30 p.m.

MR. LANE:

Okay.

CHAIR:

Yeah.

MR. LANE:

My colleague informed me of

that.

CHAIR:

Okay.

MR. LANE:

But nobody officially

informed me until today, and that's why I didn't know.

Anyway,

thank you.

CHAIR: Okay.

MS. DEMPSTER:

I want to thank you guys

very much.

we'll just go now and get the Housing staff. We'll just be one moment.

Recess

CHAIR:

Good evening everyone. Thank you all for coming.

We are

here this evening, of course, for the review of the Estimates of the Department

of Children, Seniors and Social Development. We've already used some time this

evening from the three hours that was allotted for Newfoundland and Labrador

Housing Corporation, so we have until 8:30 p.m. to get the review done.

I now

ask the Committee to introduce themselves.

MS. PERRY:

Good evening, Madam Chair.

Tracey

Perry, MHA for Fortune Bay - Cape La Hune.

MS. DRODGE:

Megan Drodge, Researcher with the Official Opposition caucus.

MR. REID:

Scott Reid, St. George's -

Humber.

MS. ROGERS:

Gerry Rogers, St. John's

Centre.

MS. WILLIAMS:

Susan Williams, Researcher for the NDP.

MR. LANE:

Paul Lane, MHA, Mount Pearl

- Southlands.

MR. WARR:

Brian Warr, MHA, Baie Verte

- Green Bay.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

Minister Dempster, if you would like to give a few opening remarks and introduce

your officials. We have 15 minutes to do that and then we go back to the

responder for 15 minutes. Then we'll go 10, 10 and 10 starting with 1.1.01.

We'll just go on down and call all of them at the end.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Thank you very much, Madam

Chair.

I'll

ask the staff to introduce themselves and then I'll provide a few opening

remarks.

MS. BALLARD:

Donna Ballard, Deputy Minister.

MR. KHURANA:

Harman Khurana, ADM.

MR. FRENCH:

Steve French, Manager of

Budgeting.

MS. WALSH:

Susan Walsh, ADM.

MR. HEALEY:

Rick Healey, ADM.

MS. HEALEY:

Michelle Healey, Director of Healthy Living, Sport and Recreation.

MR. BENNETT:

Derek Bennett, MHA, Lewisporte - Twillingate and parliamentary secretary.

MS. TRICKETT:

Wanda Trickett, Departmental Controller.

MS. COLMAN-SADD:

Vanessa Colman-Sadd, Director of Communications.

MS. DEMPSTER:

We have a fantastic team in

CSSD. We often deal with very heavy things in that social department: children

and youth in care. I often say sport is the nice outlet. We get to do nice fun

things in sports.

I'll

just share a few opening remarks about the department. I want to thank everyone

for taking the time on a beautiful evening to spend with us here going through

the Estimates, which is a very important process. Our department is dedicated to

providing a wide range of family-focused services with a concentration on

nurturing strong, healthy communities. The services that we provide include

everything from protecting children and youth from maltreatment and reuniting

children with their families when appropriate, to helping alleviate poverty and

ensuring that all residents are provided the opportunity to participate in

society and economy.

Since

becoming the minister, I have had the opportunity to visit a number of our

offices across the province and visit with staff. This has been extremely

invaluable to me as it's provided a real insight into what our staff are doing

each and every day as they carry out that important work.

Every

day we' in the boardroom discussing programs and policies on what's happening,

but that was no substitute, whether it was in an office in Gander, Grand Falls,

Deer Lake or Corner Brook, or whether it was in Sheshatshiu or attending the

gathering at Gull Island or Goose Bay, or going into Natuashish for four hours

and getting out on the third day later. It's all been really, really valuable

experiences for me as minister. I don't think I need to share with folks here

that the safety, protection and well-being of children and youth is paramount in

this department and for this government.

Advancements made in child protection will help ensure children and youth are

receiving the best services possible. Our priority is to work with families with

an end goal of having children and youth return to their home. I think there are

lots of things here that go without saying. I know all of you will agree that

every child and youth deserve a loving, nurturing environment. Generally, the

number one best place for the child is with their family. Every day I think we

have around 350 social workers around the province that work hard to achieve

these outcomes.

In last

year's budget we had funding to put in place a new Structured Decision-Making

Model. That model was recently put in place. We are continuing the ongoing work

of building a revitalized child protection system that is responsive to the

priority needs of our children and youth, as well as continuing to make

significant progress in creating a culture of accountability, excellence and

consistency across all of our programs in all regions.

To help

us achieve this we have also put in place a new ISM system, Integrated Service

Management System, which is specifically designed to support child protection

work and will help social workers manage their work and complete documentation.

When myself and Susan, in particular, have gone around the province – and you

mentioned things like you' going to now only need to do a one-page risk

assessment and you' going to have these extra supports – they were pretty

pleased to hear that. Some of the key features include due dates for program

forms and notifications when documentation is overdue. It also improves access

to data needed to monitor whether the programs and services are being delivered

according to standard.

When

children in care are unable to return safely to their parents, those children

then require what we call a permanency plan. That plan may include adoption. In

Budget 2018 we will be allocating

$395,000 over the next two years to provide dedicated resources to develop

profiles for children and youth who are waiting to be profiled for adoption and

to complete that matching process. As I'm sure you'll appreciate, the social

workers that we do have are very, very busy every day. We will be hiring three

additional social workers to profile – I think it's a goal of – 120 who are

waiting for adoption. Hopefully we'll see success from that.

We want

to ensure we match children who are eligible for adoption with loving and

supportive families and prevent children and youth from aging out of care

without a permanent connection to family or other supports. The first week I was

in the department we had siblings, with the oldest one being 17, almost about to

age-out. They got adopted. Those are the things that we celebrate every day.

Things that our children sometimes take for granted, being in a loving home.

I also

want to touch on a notable change we made recently. Last December we made

amendments to the child and youth act which provides the legislative authority

for the reporting of critical injuries and child deaths to the Advocate's

office, which will enable the office to complete the work it is mandated to do.

Tracey would be familiar with this. The Member for Fortune Bay - Cape La Hune

was involved and put forth amendments that were accepted. That process has

started and those critical injuries, along with deaths, are being reported on a

regular basis to the Advocate. We worked closely with the Advocate to develop

both the legislative amendments and policy direction to ensure the Advocate's

role in the protection of children and youth is fully supported.

I'd be

remiss probably if I didn't mention that we are concerned about the shortage of

social workers in Northern remote communities in Labrador. We have worked with

the Human Resource Secretariat, representatives from the Nunatsiavut Government

and Innu Nation to support recruitment and retention in these communities.

Further, we are working with the school of social work to promote social work

student placements in Labrador and recruitment of graduates. I'll just leave

that where it is with my opening comments, but as we get into questioning later,

if you have more questions on that piece, I'll be happy to answer them.

Physical activity is such an important part of our daily lives. Improving the

health and well-being of the people of this province is a large component of

this commitment. As laid out in The Way

Forward, we have established targets to increase physical activity rates and

breastfeeding rates, and reduce the smoking rates in our province. In Budget '18

we committed approximately $6 million for sport, physical activity and

recreation initiatives. We have also committed funding for healthy living

initiatives such as smoking cessation and Carrot Rewards, including $1.3 million

toward healthy eating supporting groups such as Kids Eat Smart, Food First NL

and the School Lunch Association.

surprise maybe to anyone here, I'm pretty excited about the fact that we

committed $500,000 for the Labrador Winter Games that I've been attending for, I

think it's the 35th year coming up in 2019. They take place every three years in

Labrador. I suppose I could also add that I've been an athlete at those games. I

wouldn't do much with that right now, but I have some great memories from the

games.

Our

government continues to work with the community – of persons with disabilities

and all residents – to move forward on our commitment to become a more inclusive

province. We know citizens of our province still experience barriers on a daily

basis; barriers that exclude people from taking

part in their communities, from

employment opportunities or maybe, sadly, sometimes even from accessing public

services. We maintain our commitment to review existing legislation in order to

remove barriers and ensure residents have equitable access to opportunities and

to services.

We are

investing $400,000 for accessible vehicles to increase options for accessible

transportation through either accessible taxi, or retrofitting or acquiring

accessible vehicles for personal use; and $75,000 for inclusion grants to

non-profit community organizations. This will help those organizations make

their facilities and events more accessible and inclusive.

Budget 2018 also supports the

continued development of age-friendly communities throughout Newfoundland and

Labrador with an investment of $300,000 for age-friendly transportation projects

to support community-based transportation projects that demonstrate clear

evidence of volunteer involvement and collaboration.

I might

be remiss if I didn't mention that I had a chance to visit the Member for Baie

Verte - Green Bay's district in January. They' doing some fantastic work around

the age-friendly community out in the Springdale area. I'm sure that other areas

around the province will come on board more and more as they look at the great

work happening there and in places like Clarenville.

This is

in addition to our government announcing the first ever Seniors' Advocate for

the province. Last year, we were pleased to announce the appointment of Dr.

Suzanne Brake to this role. I'll just make three quick comments about the

Advocate and the role of the Advocate: Identify, review and analyze systemic

issues – I think sometimes that gets confused in the public, they might think

it's a place to go and take your individual complaints, maybe – working

collaboratively with seniors, organizations, service delivery groups and others

to identify and address systemic issues; and make recommendations to government

respecting changes to improve services to and for seniors.

I've

just barely touched the surface in the really large social department. They were

just a few items that I wanted to highlight. I'll conclude by saying I am

pleased every single day to work with a fantastic team. We remain committed to

providing the necessary social supports to the people of our province.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Minister.

I just

want to remind the speakers, before you speak, identify yourselves by stating

your name just so that the Broadcast Centre can pick it up and it can be

transcribed by Hansard.

Ms.

Perry.

MS. PERRY:

Thank you.

Thank

you, Minister.

I'm

going to start under

section 1.1.01. I just have three general questions first.

How many employees in positions are in the department currently?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Permanent positions in the department right now: the total would be 694.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Minister, as well, can we get a copy of your binder or the Estimates?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes.

MS. PERRY:

Okay, thank you.

How

many temporary staff would you have?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Thirty-six.

MS. PERRY:

Thirty-six temp? Okay.

What is

the vacancy rate in your department?

MS. DEMPSTER:

The vacancy rate: permanent right now, we have a total of 98; and temporary, 9.

MS. PERRY:

Nine? Okay.

How

many positions are being eliminated this year due to attrition?

MS. DEMPSTER:

There are no positions.

MS. PERRY:

None?

MS. DEMPSTER:

No.

I'm

looking to staff to make sure the information – I think I'm right but there are

none, right?

MR. KHURANA:

None identified yet. We do have attrition savings but we don't have any

positions for the year for elimination at this moment. We'll be working with HRS

and Treasury Board, if required, to identify any positions.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

What

percentage of your budget is attrition savings?

MR. KHURANA:

Less than half a per cent. Roughly $236,000 is the target for this year that we

are hoping to achieve.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Last

year, in Transportation and Communications – moving on now to 1.1.01 – that

budget was over by $20,000. Can you explain what the variance was there?

1.1.01.01, under Salaries, then Transportation and Communications.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Can you clarify which one

you' asking about there, Tracey?

MS. PERRY:

Okay, it's on page 13.3 on

the very, very bottom. It's under Executive and Support Services, 1.1.01,

Minister's Office.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes.

MS. PERRY:

Then, right under that,

Salaries and then Operating Accounts.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes.

MS. PERRY:

Transportation and

Communications going across, you had budgeted $45,800 but you spent $65,000 so …

MS. DEMPSTER:

Okay.

Due to

the ministerial shuffle that occurred on the 31st of July, it resulted in

higher-than-anticipated travel costs. My predecessor, maybe he lived a couple of

hours car drive away and I have a hike to Labrador. That was the difference

there.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

That

would also explain then, the increase for this year would be Labrador travel?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Last

year, Salaries went over budget by $518,000 – oh, sorry, 1.2.01, under Salaries

for Executive Support. Last year you had budgeted $1.67 million but you actually

spent $2,188,400. It went over budget by $518,000, yet this year your budget is

forecasted to be lower even than it was for last year. Can you outline what's

happening here with this line?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yeah, I can give you a

little explanation.

That

was mainly due to a couple of things. The budget for the manager of Service

Delivery and Regional Operations position was transferred from Child and Youth

Services activity to Executive Support to correctly align the position within

the organization chart. There was no impact in that part; there was just some

realigning to the departmental budget or to the individual holding the position.

I also

want to add that we had some paid leave payouts and severance for three staff,

two DMs, two ADMs and the director of Communications. You wouldn't normally

budget for those things – correct me –

MS. PERRY:

Yes.

MS. DEMPSTER:

– because you don't really

know when people are leaving or if it's one-time paid.

MS. PERRY:

Right. Have these positions

since been filled again?

MR. KHURANA:

These were part of the

management restructuring when the two departments were combined, so these were

redundant positions.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MR. KHURANA:

When the positions left, we

had to have large lump sum payments for paid leave and severance which wouldn't

have been budgeted.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Moving

on to 1.2.02, last year Salaries were over budget by $167,000 and this year's

budget is increased to $5.464 million. Can you explain that line item?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Where is that, Harman?

MR. KHURANA:

Tab 4 (inaudible).

MS. PERRY:

1.2.02, Salaries.

MS. DEMPSTER:

The increase in expenditure was primarily due to unbudgeted continuance payments

as a result of the '16-'17 restructuring, as well as severance and paid annual

leave payouts that occurred during the year. Very similar to what we just

explained in the other area.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

The

next line item, Transportation and Communications; can you explain why there was

a savings of almost $5,000 in 2017-18, but the budget for next year is being

increased – or this year?

MS. DEMPSTER:

The $4,800?

MS. PERRY:

No, the $264,500. Actually, you were under budget last year. There was a savings

of $5,000 but this year you' budgeting $334,700.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes, the difference of

$4,800, right?

MS. PERRY:

Yeah, sorry.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Basically savings were

achieved from various travel requirements that either did not occur or when they

travelled they had lower-than-estimated cost.

MS. PERRY:

That's how the $5,000 was saved, so why is this year's budget $70,000 higher? It

went from $264,000 to $334,000.

MS. DEMPSTER:

As a part of the zero-based budgeting exercise, the department adjusted its

budgetary requirements to address funding requirements throughout the activity

through reallocation from other divisions. Once again, there was no net change

in the departmental budget as the reallocation came in from other areas.

MS. PERRY:

Right, it's just restructuring within.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes. Some things were taken from Susan's shop and put in Rick's shop and things

like that.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

looks like there were some savings last year with respect to Supplies. The

amount budgeted this year is for $22,000 less. Can you explain why that is

happening?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Other than the fact there was a reduction of discretionary spending. That

resulted in less-than-anticipated supplies expenditure during the year.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MS. DEMPSTER:

I could tell you that they have me buying my own scribblers and pencils.

MS. PERRY:

Under Purchased Services –

still with line 1.2.02 – the restated 2017-18 budget doesn't match what was in

last year's Estimates book. Last year, the book said that the budget would be

$117,000, but in this document it's listed as $55,700. Can you explain why the

number is different than what was presented in last year's budget document?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Purchased Services generally

includes transportation costs, equipment leases, photocopiers and training

provided by external groups. The revised budget is higher than anticipated due

to overages; for example, photocopier charges and costs associated with records

management.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MS. DEMPSTER:

That's where it was from.

Harman

will add to that.

MR. KHURANA:

There was some budget for

leases. Leases were restructured; all the money for leases has been moved to TW.

That's why it's not matching up with the Estimates that you would have seen

previously.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Under

the Revenue - Provincial, I believe this revenue is from three pools that your

department operates. Is that correct, the source of your revenue?

MS. DEMPSTER:

The revenue is received from

the three provincial pools, training centres – there's one in Gander, one in

Corner Brook and one in Happy Valley – for things like swimming lesson

registration, swim passes and pool rentals.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Last

year, we talked about funding, $20,000 for the development of School Food

Guidelines. Can you give us an update on where that is?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Can you repeat the question

again, please?

MS. PERRY:

Last year, there was $20,000

budgeted for the development of School Food Guidelines. Can you give us a status

update as to where these guidelines are?

MS. DEMPSTER:

I'm just going to look to

Michelle to answer that.

MS. HEALEY:

In relation to the School

Food Guidelines, that work was actually deferred. In 2018 Health Canada is

revising Canada's Food Guide, so the work was deferred to ensure that new School

Food Guidelines line up with revisions to Canada's Food Guide.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

We also

talked last year about funding of $20,000 for the Atlantic Collaborative on

Injury Prevention. Can you give us an update on that?

MS. HEALEY:

That funding is a partnership between the four Atlantic provinces. That funding

was paid out in '17-'18 and is intended for '18-'19 as well.

MS. PERRY:

Okay, so the four provinces.

Which province administers it?

MS. HEALEY:

The centre is located in Halifax but all four Atlantic provinces participate.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

1.2.03;

in 2017-18 the budget for Salaries was decreased and you found more savings, but

in this year's budget you' allocating $1,394,200 more then you budgeted last

year. Can you explain that variance?

1.2.03.

MS. DEMPSTER:

In 2018-19, the salary plan

now includes the additional behaviour management specialist. They would have

formerly reported to the Child and Youth Services activity. These positions now

report to the children and youth division. That totals $1,232,300.

addition to that, as I alluded to in my opening comments, $161,900 has been

added to the budget as part of an approved budget note on the permanency

planning of children and youth in care. We' going to have these three positions

added to the department, the $161,900.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Can you

give an overview – under Transportation and Communications, still with 1.2.03 –

of where savings were achieved in '17-'18 and what the reason is for the

increase in budget '18-'19?

MS. DEMPSTER:

The revised budget, down by

$10,000, is a reduction of discretionary spending resulting in

less-than-anticipated travel expenditures.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Under

Purchased Services – still with 1.2.03 – last year this line item had a savings

of $59,200. Can you tell us how that was achieved and what is planned for this

year to total $121,500 in spending?

MS. DEMPSTER:

The reduction, once again,

is lower-than-anticipated expenditures during the year as savings were used to

help offset cost for the Structured Decision-Making – structured

decision-management training that I referred to in my opening.

What

was your next comment? What will the money be used for?

MS. PERRY:

Yes.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Where will it be spent, Purchased Services?

MS. PERRY:

What is planned for the $121,000?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Basically, that money goes to advertising, meeting room rentals, printing and

other general services. I don't know if I'm missing anything there.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

Ms.

Rogers.

MS. ROGERS:

If we could go back to 1.2.02. Under Salaries we see an increase there of $1.3

million for '18-'19.

CHAIR:

Once again, if you could identify yourself before speaking, the Broadcast Centre

is having difficulty.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Thank you. It's Minister Dempster.

Why is

the original budget up, the $1.3 million?

MS. ROGERS:

Yeah, the $1.3 million in the Salaries there.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes.

MS. ROGERS:

Thank you.

MS. DEMPSTER:

The increase is primarily due to the positions in the child and youth services

branch; for example, financial administration officers, account clerk, IT and

clerk typist IIIs. They have been moved. It's just some in-house things

happening again.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

MS. DEMPSTER:

They were moved into Corporate Services and performance management. No net

change as a result of this in the departmental budget as, basically, this was

just a reallocation of salary, budget and positions from one branch to another.

Staff was not impacted due to the change in reporting structure.

There

is, I'll mention, a $101,600 increase mainly due to year-over-year changes; for

example, prior vacant positions becoming filled. It might have been an

incremental step increase or something like that.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Thank you.

Then

down to 1.2.03, under Professional Services – 1.2.03, under Program and Policy

there.

Under

Professional Services can you just explain a bit what kinds of professional

services would be contracted? Then we see a drop in $156,000 for this year.

MS. DEMPSTER:

There were lower-than-anticipated expenditures during the year. Those savings

were used to help offset the cost of that Structure Decision-Making training.

The

actual expenditures to date for Professional Services include the implementation

of that Structured Decision-Making Model.

What

was the other part of your question, Gerry? I'm sorry.

MS. ROGERS:

We see a decrease there, so

I assume then that there was a lot more activity around the structured

management.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay and that has been

implemented now?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes.

MS. ROGERS:

How is it going?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Like any new program there

were some little tweaks to work out, but the feedback generally has been very,

very positive for the staff right across the region.

MS. ROGERS:

Great.

Has all

the training been done now?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Only new staff have not yet

had the training.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, great.

MS. DEMPSTER:

There's been a tremendous

amount of work happening around that system over the last number – well, all

winter really.

MS. ROGERS:

Yeah and it seems to be

something that the staff likes and it's helping them with their work.

MS. DEMPSTER:

I'm going to just ask Susan

to speak to the model for a moment.

MS. WALSH:

I'll certainly speak to the staff's experience and I'll probably hand it over to

my colleague here for the model. From the staff experience perspective they are

very excited. It's a wonderful model. All we' receiving is very positive

feedback about the tools and the opportunity to have a more up-to-date approach.

We had our old model for so long.

As the

minister indicated, absolutely there have been some challenges, like any new

model, in trying to appreciate if they are following it appropriately. We've had

some sessions with the staff; two sessions to this point. The third one – I just

reached out to all of the zone managers to say: What would you find most helpful

in terms of your continued learning and support around this? They said they'd

like a question and answer period and they'd like to present some

non-identifying cases and get some feedback. We' organizing that now.

MS. ROGERS:

Susan, it's mostly then,

social workers working in child protection who are using this?

MS. WALSH:

That's correct.

MS. ROGERS:

Recording and report writing

has always been such a challenge. It's so good.

Great,

thank you.

2.1.01 we see a variance in the Salaries for '17-'18 and then '18-'19. It's

Child and Youth Services.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes.

MS. ROGERS:

Yes.

MS. DEMPSTER:

So 99 per cent of the

2017-18 original budget salaries in Child and Youth Services were spent during

the year.

Salaries are lower than anticipated, primarily, due to vacancies that occurred

throughout the year, delays in filling positions, due partially to hard to fil.

In this case, we would be referring, primarily or especially, to Labrador, and

turnover in staff and throughout the year, for example, people going on

maternity leave, things like that.

MS. ROGERS:

So then we see also a

decrease of $3 million for '18-'19.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yeah.

The

2018-19 salary plan is reduced by $2.4325 million due to the staff, for example,

– and I think I might have shared this with Tracey – financial systems officers,

accounting clerks, typist IIIs and behavioural management specialists. It's just

where the salaries were moved to other divisions within the department and there

was no net change at all to the departmental budget.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

MS. DEMPSTER:

It was an allocation,

basically, from one branch to the other.

Further

to that, two more quick points; $353,300 has been removed from the budget due to

budget decisions for the departmental attrition plan, but no layoffs will occur

due to this reduction in salary budget. Finally, $333,000 remaining reduction is

primarily due to prior-year decisions including management restructuring.

MS. ROGERS:

So we'll lose some positions

through attrition there then?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes.

MR. KHURANA:

There are no positions identified, as I mentioned. This is something we want to

achieve through attrition. So over the next few months we'll be working with HRS

and Treasury Board to come up with a plan. We still have to review what

retirements are upcoming. We may be able to manage this in the short term

through vacancies.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

MR. KHURANA:

So we may not have to identify positions immediately, if there are enough

vacancies. We might have to wait out if there are any retirements that take

place over the course of the next couple of years.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Thank you.

Transportation and Communications, we see an increase of $325,000 in '17-'18,

and then a decrease of $82,000?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Transportation and

Communications, so we know that includes the cost of staff travel, postage,

telephones, cellphones and a significant number of staff in this department and

CSSD are required to travel as a part of their daily work.

MS. ROGERS:

Mm-hmm.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Travel-related costs are the

major expenditure for this activity. The variance that you see here in the

budget is primarily due to the additional expenditures of regional staff

travelling throughout the province for the new structure decision-making model,

as a part of their training.

MS. ROGERS:

Thank you.

imagine, too, if you' replacing people constantly in Labrador, there would be

some travel there as well.

MS. DEMPSTER:

There's a cost to that.

MS. ROGERS:

Yeah.

Okay,

thank you.

If we

can scroll down to Purchased Services. What kinds of services would be purchased

under this? I see there's a variance there.

MS. DEMPSTER:

What kinds of – well, are

you talking about where the budget is up to $75,400?

MS. ROGERS:

Mm-hmm.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes, just to make sure I was

in the right place.

So, the

expenditures were due primarily to higher than anticipated costs in photo

copying, vehicle maintenance and leases.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, thank you.

Allowances and Assistance, so we see an increase of $10.8 million and then a

decrease of $213,000, if we could just look at that.

MS. DEMPSTER:

So the increased cost is

directly attributable to the growth in the number of level 4 placements as a

result of an increase in the number of children with complex needs requiring

care.

MS. ROGERS:

Why is that do you think?

CHAIR:

Thank you.

MS. ROGERS:

Can we just finish this one?

CHAIR:

Your time is expire

MS. ROGERS:

Can we just finish this

question?

CHAIR:

Okay sure, go ahead.

MS. ROGERS:

Yeah.

Why is

that do you think? It seems like a significant jump in the placement of level 4

care.

MS. DEMPSTER:

We have been seeing an

increase in level 4, and it is the more costly placement option.

guess, when we look at society in general and we look at things like an increase

in mental health, addictions, lots of complex things, we' seeing larger sibling

groups that we can't place into foster care. So if you have three or four – I

don't know what I'm missing here.

OFFICIAL :

(Inaudible.)

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yeah, it's pretty much.

MS. ROGERS:

It's a big jump, isn't it?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes, it's very concerning.

I will

say, this is something we discuss every single day in the department. The

increase in level 4 concerns us all. When we look at the bigger picture, and

long before I was here, we all knew the stories around the province of the huge

numbers of children that were out of province. So we've been able to bring that

down significantly.

MS. ROGERS:

Mm-hmm.

MS. DEMPSTER:

It was over 50 and now, I

believe, it's only around 14 out of province.

You'll

remember the sad stories from years ago of children in hotel rooms. We no longer

have that. That's not happening.

Over

the last number of months, since I've came to the department, we've put together

an interdepartmental group that's looking really hard at this issue. So now when

there's a need to take children from homes or place them, it's looked at heavily

by the whole group: What are the options?

There's

been no new level 4 since January, correct? Yes, since we've put this committee

in place.

MS. ROGERS:

So then for '18-'19, you' going back to the '17-'18 numbers. So you expect for

it to be dropped by that much, $10.8 million?

MS. DEMPSTER:

The answer's coming.

All

right, I'll let Harman speak to that.

CHAIR:

Mr. Healey?

MR. HEALEY:

So what we've put in place is we've put in a much more comprehensive analysis of

available placement options any time a child is deemed in need of a staff

residential placement. We've also put in an oversight committee looking at all

our level 4 placements.

So we'

looking at our vacancy rates and our usage rates, not only in individualized

living arrangements but also in our group homes and our emergency placement

units.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Thank you.

CHAIR:

Ms. Perry?

MS. PERRY:

Over the last two years we've spoke about a new anti-smoking campaign in

Estimates.

Can you

give us some information on what the campaign entails and tell us about how it's

progressing?

MS. DEMPSTER:

I'll start, and if I miss anything I'll look to Michelle, our expert in the

Healthy Living Division.

we've set some targets, as a part of The

Way Forward , to reduce our

smoking rates by 4 per cent by 2025, and as a part of that we are supporting a

number of groups like annual funding going to the Alliance for the Control of

Tobacco, the NL Lung Association and funding to the Helping Women Quit program.

I'm

going to let Michelle speak to maybe the measuring part of that, which is more

difficult to do.

Michelle.

CHAIR:

Ms. Healey.

MS. HEALEY:

I think some more statistics will be available in 2018, as in terms of where we'

working towards the target that has been established, but to build on the

campaign as well. We' working with the Alliance for the Control of Tobacco on a

youth prevention initiative, which is a targeted campaign to prevent youth from

the uptake of smoking which will certainly help us with reducing smoking rates

overall. That work is currently underway with the Alliance for the Control of

Tobacco.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. Thank you.

Last

year in Estimates the minister spoke about the development of an individualized

support funding model. Can you provide an update on this?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Too many notes here, Tracey.

MS. PERRY:

Minister, can we get a copy of your notes as well?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes, certainly you can get a copy. I'm just looking for my individualized

funding model. I know that we have started that process. I don't see that right

in front of me so I'm going to ask: Donna, do you want to speak to that?

MS. BALLARD:

No, I'll look to Rick on that one. He's lead in that.

MR. HEALEY:

We' really excited about the individualized funding, of course. How we'

developing this is that we' working with the community itself. We' actually with

the community and users of the system, so we have put together a cohort of

users.

With

the users and the community at the table, we' actually developing what this

individualized funding will look like in the future. It's a true co-design of a

program and it's going really well. I don't know how often we've done that in

the past, but it's a real unique way of designing a program. Right now, we have

a cohort of individuals who are actually utilizing an individualized funding

model within community supports.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. Thank you.

Last

year in Estimates the deputy minister talked about the purchase of some data

regarding poverty levels. I'm wondering if we can get an update on this. How is

the project and analysis going? What was learned from it? What actions are being

taken?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Poverty levels?

MS. PERRY:

Poverty levels, yeah.

CHAIR:

Mr. Healey.

MR. HEALEY:

We' always purchasing new data and looking at it. I don't recall, to be honest

with you, that specific purchase you' referring to, but I certainly can get back

to you on it.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. Thank you so much, Mr. Healey.

Last

year, it was indicated that you were going to be doing more by distance

delivery. How has this impacted the services available to children and families?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Distance delivery? Can you

be a little bit more specific on what type of –?

MS. PERRY:

In child, youth and family

services.

MS. DEMPSTER:

I'm looking to staff because

I wasn't here. I'm not familiar with anything in the distance delivery type of

service that we' doing. We've been here over nine months. No –

MS. PERRY:

You can get back to us on

that one.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Our ADM responsible for

children and youth says it's not ringing any bells to her. She's not familiar.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. I'm going to bypass

the next one or two.

Under

Grants and Subsidies, where does this money go? Can we get a detailed list and a

breakdown of who the grants were allocated to, where privacy permits? How come

this went over budget by $1,389,000 in the previous fiscal year? We' thinking

this is funding for Key Assets, Waypoints, Shalom, Blue Sky and John Howard.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Can you tell me where you

are in the line by line?

MS. PERRY:

Yeah, Grants and Subsidies, 2.1.01.

MS. DEMPSTER:

2.1?

MS. PERRY:

2.1.01.10, yeah. Page 13.5,

just above Amount to be Voted.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Right here, yeah.

That

increase was mainly related to annualization of cost associated with the

additional emergency placement homes that were established in the previous year.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Would

we be able to get a detailed breakdown of the funding allocations there?

MS. DEMPSTER:

I don't know what the

privacy is around that.

Harman,

if you could …?

MR. KHURANA:

Could you clarify what details you were looking for?

MS. PERRY:

Who was awarded the grants

and subsidies and how much for each recipient?

MR. KHURANA:

It's all service providers.

There wasn't one specific one. We have about roughly 30-odd homes.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MR. KHURANA:

They'd be Blue Sky, Key

Assets, Shalom and Waypoint. This particular one will be one that was created in

2016. It probably was created in the middle of the year and now in 2017 we had

to pay the full-year cost. That's why there was a bit of a shortfall.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Under

revenue – and still on the same

section – the restated 2017-2018 budget doesn't

match what was in last year's Estimate book. Last year, the book said that

forecasted revenue was $15,544,000, but it's listed here as $15,377,100.

Can you

explain why? That would be under the revenue.

MR. KHURANA:

Are you referring to the

federal revenues?

MS. PERRY:

2.1.01, Revenue - Federal,

yes.

MR. KHURANA:

You' indicating that last

year's Estimates were not reconciling with the $15.5 million?

MS. PERRY:

Yeah, in last year's budget

document that was presented the amount was stated as $15,544,000, but it's

showing up this year as $15,377,000. It's not matching last year's budget

document. I think that pertains to things like Indigenous and Northern Affairs,

Children's Special Allowance and Youth Justice Agreement.

MS. DEMPSTER:

If I'm looking at the right

place, the revenue received during 2017-18 was higher than anticipated mainly

due to additional revenue received for Children's Special Allowance; so there

was $3.2 million. INAC, Indigenous and Northern Affairs, was $0.2 million, am I

MR. KHURANA:

I have the Estimates from

last year. For 17-18 the budget was $15.544 million for revenues and that's

what's here.

MS. PERRY:

We are showing $15,377,100,

and this is last year's?

MR. KHURANA:

We'll have to get back to

you on that. I'm not sure what the reason is.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

Ms.

Rogers.

MS. ROGERS:

Can we go to 3.1.01, under

Seniors and Social Development, Healthy Living, Grants and Subsidies. Can we

have a list of the Grants and Subsidies that were allocated under that, 10?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes, we can.

MS. ROGERS:

Great. Thank you.

Also,

we see an increase in '18-'19 Estimates of $655,000. Are there any new programs

or just a nice fat, juicy –?

MS. DEMPSTER:

The increases are due to

four reasons: $500,000 for the Labrador Winter Games and that happens only every

three years; a $250,000 increase for healthy living and youth wellness; $75,000

was a decrease for NL games regional qualifier; and there was a $20,000 decrease

for Canada Games programs, cycling. I guess we had no one that went in cycling

after maybe?

MS. HEALEY:

Correct. We didn't cycle.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yeah.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Thank you.

Just to

go back to the smoking cessation and smoking programs, are we seeing an increase

in the number of youth taking up smoking?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Michelle.

MS. HEALEY:

We' waiting on some

additional stats to come out in the fall of 2018 that should give us some

additional data around youth uptake. There's actually a school survey that will

take place in the 2018 school year that will give us some additional data around

youth smoking rates right across the country and in our province.

MS. ROGERS:

Oh, great.

The

data will cover what time period?

MS. HEALEY:

It's an annual survey.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, great.

Do you

have a gut sense as to what's happening?

MS. HEALEY:

Anecdotally, with the

introduction of e-cigarettes, that provides a gateway sometimes to tobacco.

That's why some of the work that we' doing with the Alliance for the Control of

Tobacco around youth prevention initiatives is really a key to try and prevent

youth from ever starting to smoke.

MS. ROGERS:

Is there a gender split as

well, in terms of the data that you'll receive?

MS. HEALEY:

I currently don't have the

information here with me but we could provide what's available to you.

MS. ROGERS:

Great. Thank you very much.

I'd

like to skip over to 3.1.06, the Disability Policy Office. In the Grants and

Subsidies we see a reduction there of $75,000.

MS. DEMPSTER:

You' looking for a breakdown?

MS. ROGERS:

Yeah, it's a small – I just see that there's such a need in the province and

that we see a reduction in Grants and Subsidies under 3.1.06.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Okay, so the reduction in

the budget is due to a prior year forecast adjustment for combining and reducing

capacity and inclusion grants.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. Thank you.

I have

some general questions. The Poverty Reduction Strategy; what activities did the

strategy undertake in '17-'18? Also, what's planned for '18-'19?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Budget 2018 we did have over $280

million being invested in poverty reduction. That's up from $270 million in

2017. I can say that government is taking a long-term and holistic approach, so

looking right across departments. We' certainly committed to doing what we can

to reduce poverty and undertaking work in line with

The Way Forward . That includes a

health-in-all-policies approach.

When we

think about poverty reduction, we look to things like the Premier's Task Force

on Improving Educational Outcomes and the All-Party Committee on Mental Health

and Addictions. All of that helps feed into information that we need as we plan

going forward focusing on homelessness, educational outcomes, mental health and

addiction.

Some of

the initiatives right now in the department that are under development is:

Supporting social enterprise; supporting initiatives that focus on private

sector job creation and economic growth; implementing the individualized funding

model for persons with disabilities; multi-year community grants approach which

we announced today, this morning, the Premier and I; working with the federal

government as it develops a Canadian poverty reduction strategy; and moving to a

more integrated client- and outcome-focused approach to service delivery.

MS. ROGERS:

Basically, it's $280 million

that's kind of sprinkled throughout.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Across departments.

MS. ROGERS:

Yes.

Is it

possible to have a list to identify where that $280 million is?

MS. DEMPSTER:

We have a full list of all

the initiatives that total up to that amount.

MS. ROGERS:

Great.

MS. DEMPSTER:

I think there's no issue

with sharing, is there?

OFFICIAL:

I wouldn't think so.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, great.

Also,

just to reiterate that what we each ask for that we'll both receive?

Great,

thank you very much.

MS. DEMPSTER:

We were taught share and

share alike in kindergarten.

MS. ROGERS:

That's great.

Also,

the Support to Community Agencies under 3.1.03, can we have a list of the

support to the different agencies?

OFFICIAL:

Where's that?

MS. ROGERS:

3.1.03, Support to Community

Agencies.

MS. DEMPSTER:

There are about 40 community

groups. We could provide you with that list.

MS. ROGERS:

You can give us that list?

Great, thank you very much.

This is

jumping around a little bit but I have a question –

MS. DEMPSTER:

Just to finish up, I want to

mention in looking at the Support to Community Agencies you' going see the

$25,000 increase. That was $25,000 that we gave to School Lunch.

MS. ROGERS:

Great. Thank you.

How

many foster homes are there currently in the province? Do we know?

MS. DEMPSTER:

I'm going to ask Susan.

MS. WALSH:

There are 475 regular foster homes and 275 relative/significant other foster

homes.

MS. ROGERS:

Where is that in relation to

a year ago?

MS. WALSH:

That I can't answer. Were you going to, Rick?

CHAIR:

Mr. Healey.

MR. HEALEY:

I don't have the exact number here with me but I'm very confident, actually,

that the number of foster homes right now is higher than last year. I recall

looking at that, but I don't recall specific numbers – but I do recall the

outcome.

MS. ROGERS:

Why is that, Rick?

MR. HEALEY:

I think we' doing a good job

of recruiting our foster homes, to be honest with you. We've developed a really

good relationship with the Foster Families Association. We give them – Harman

will correct me – somewhere in the area of $350,000. I hope that's close.

Part of

that funding is for them to do recruitment for us, radio ads and so forth. Some

of our best recruiters, of course, are our current foster homes. We have a

number of pilots that we have in place to support foster families. I would like

to think that we' doing a good job and that's why our numbers are going up.

MS. ROGERS:

The numbers have gone up in

foster families. Have the number of children in care gone up or that they' not

being served in other accommodations?

CHAIR:

Minister.

MS. DEMPSTER:

In June the numbers were

1,013. The last number that we had was 1,005? Yes.

CHAIR:

Ms. Perry.

MS. PERRY:

Under

section 3.1.01,

Healthy Living, Sport and Recreation; the programs on the department website

don't really match the funding area, so it's sometimes a little confusing to

figure out. Is it possible to get a list of which programs are in each area?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Under 3.1.01. Okay, so

Grants and Subsidies –

MS. PERRY:

Yeah, that's for all the

grants over all the departments, so it's probably more general.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yeah, there are four

different areas. There's sport development, recreation and –

MS. PERRY:

Seniors.

MS. DEMPSTER:

– physical, healthy living and the provincial sport and rec. I'm not sure.

Historically, is there any …?

MS. HEALEY:

Sport development,

recreation and physical activity, healthy living initiatives and funding to

provincial sport organizations and governing bodies are the four categories of

funding through our grants and subsidies program in Healthy Living, Sport and

Recreation.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

MS. HEALEY:

We can certainly provide a list of all organizations that receive funding.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

Can I

get a list of all the grants, who received them and what amount under the

Seniors and Aging programs as well, and the Disability Policy Office?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yeah, there are no privacy issues.

MS. PERRY:

Okay, so all the seniors' grants, the small grants and everything, just a

complete list of …

MS. DEMPSTER:

With the Disability we wouldn't be able to disclose names for privacy purposes.

MS. PERRY:

Right. Yes, that's quite understandable.

Thank

you so much, Minister.

How are

application-based programs adjudicated? Is there a specific amount of funding

available for each district? Is it by region or is it just a first-come,

first-served pot of funding?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Are you speaking to either specific area?

MS. PERRY:

I'm speaking to all the grants programs, so not just

H ealthy Living, Sport and

Recreation, but the seniors and Disability Office as well. How are evaluation

decisions made and how are the funding allocations made?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Okay, so I'll start and then I'll let staff pick up where you might need some

additional substance. I think the majority of what I'm familiar with are

application and merit based. There's a criteria – a very defined criteria – you

have to meet. Primarily it's first-come, first-served.

I know

we keep hearing about this per district – I haven't been here very long. Maybe

someone took a total number and divided it by 40 and said I'm entitled to X

figure. We don't have every MHA in the House applying because I guess it varies

by region. You might have certain areas that are really pro for applying for

applications and having various things running in their community. Then you have

other districts where you just don't have that, so you'll probably never see it

evened out.

I don't

know …

MS. PERRY:

There's no regional balance or anything either. It's just more first-come,

first-served.

MS. DEMPSTER:

That's my understanding. Someone can correct me if I'm – it's an application, it

is merit based, it's a criteria. Some of them you have to attach quotes if you'

going to make purchases for equipment or whatever you' doing.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. Thank you, Minister.

I'm

down to my last page. Now I'm going to ask some questions about the Seniors'

Advocate.

What

work has the Seniors' Advocate been undertaking? Can you give us some specific

examples of exactly what the person does?

MS. DEMPSTER:

You asked specifically about the Seniors' Advocate, didn't you?

MS. PERRY:

Yeah, I did.

MS. DEMPSTER:

In November we announced the appointment of Dr. Suzanne Brake as the first ever.

Really, she operates independently of us. We don't control and we don't direct.

Primarily, her work is to analyze systemic issues. She works with seniors and

stakeholders to identify, review and analyze. She can make recommendations to

us, as government, in directions that she feels we should be going. If she's

saying I'm seeing an awful lot of this and this is a huge systemic issue, then

we can, as a result of her recommendation, maybe put policy in place to help

address that.

Another

part of her position would be to promote awareness to the general public of

various things that might be available. Again, I'll look to Rick in case I'm

missing anything there on the Seniors' Advocate. It was our government that

followed through on a commitment and put the Seniors' Advocate office in place.

Other than that, she operates very independently of government.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

terms of systemic issues, has the Seniors' Advocate identified any to date?

MR. HEALEY:

Not at this point in time.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

terms of awareness activities, can you list several examples of things the

Seniors' Advocate has done in the last six months pertaining to awareness?

MS. DEMPSTER:

(Inaudible) reach out to the

Seniors' Advocate because she is independent of government. We have a very

impressive calibre of person in that position and I'm sure she'd be happy to

share what information that she could without breaching privacy.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

This is

another general question now; this one pertains to mandatory reporting. Can the

minister give an update on the implementation of mandatory reporting and how

many incidents have been reported?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Mandatory reporting is

ongoing of deaths and critical injuries. I don't have a total. Do I have a

total? I'll ask Susan to …?

CHAIR:

Ms. Walsh.

MS. WALSH:

Are you asking since the

changes?

MS. PERRY:

Yes.

MS. WALSH:

There were 10 since March of

this year.

MS. PERRY:

Okay.

We have

heard from some concerned individuals that parental coaching has been eliminated

in youth protection. Can you tell us if any changes have been made? If so, can

you outline them?

CHAIR:

Ms. Walsh.

MS. WALSH:

No, we haven't stopped the

use of parent coaches. We did – and perhaps this is what you heard – have a new

computer system. The information management system in our department changed to

ISM and the delegation within it did actually leave off parent-coaching by

accident, solely. So we actually fixed that last week and it is absolutely

available and being used as required.

MS. PERRY:

Okay. Thank you so much.

That

concludes my questions.

CHAIR:

Ms. Rogers.

MS. ROGERS:

I know we've spoken a little

bit about the number of people in kinship arrangements. Can we have a list of

placements? For instance, the number of people in kinship, traditional foster

homes, level 2, 3, 4, emergency placement homes, individual living arrangements

and group homes. Can we just have those numbers?

MS. DEMPSTER:

(Inaudible) online.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yeah, and update as we have

updates.

MS. ROGERS:

Thank you.

The

wait times for family therapy services for parents, can we have an update on

that? I know that there have been significant wait times for that.

MS. WALSH:

So we have internal

resources, social worker IIIs who provide counselling. There are six in total;

five in the metro area and one in Marystown. We absolutely use that as a

resource for us to try to access services more quickly for families.

that's not available then we will purchase service in the community or,

obviously, we would try to use free service at the Janeway or some other service

availability.

Wait

times are a challenge. There is no doubt about it.

MS. ROGERS:

Mm-hmm.

MS. WALSH:

We've found that ourselves within our department.

MS. ROGERS:

Yes.

MS. WALSH:

We actually have some work

ongoing with the Department of Health to look at resources that they've recently

acquired to see if there's something we can do there to expedite the services

for our children and families.

MS. ROGERS:

So, Susan, for instance, if

I was mandated by court as a parent to have to do family therapy, if I'm living

in St. John's, what kind of wait time might I have there?

MS. WALSH:

I really apologize, I don't

have a number on that. I just can't tell you how long.

MS. ROGERS:

But they' a challenge.

MS. WALSH:

It absolutely is longer than

we would like. We would like immediate service in the best interest, of course,

of children we serve –

MS. ROGERS:

Absolutely, yeah.

MS. WALSH:

– and their families. So we

are focused on having a look at how we might get this sped up.

MS. ROGERS:

Is it possible to get that

information or …?

MS. WALSH:

There's nowhere we could

easily access it. It would be a full file review process of every single

individual file. It would be a fair bit of work to accomplish.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay, thank you.

So the

Innu First Nation review of care, that's well underway, that inquiry?

MS. DEMPSTER:

(Inaudible) released

informing the province that she would be carrying out a review of the services.

Did you say Innu or Inuit?

MS. ROGERS:

I said Innu.

MS. DEMPSTER:

You said Innu.

So,

yes, the Innu, it probably haven't actually started, maybe, but the latest thing

we know is that the federal government has now agreed to be a full partner in

the Innu inquiry.

I did

just hear in the media that the Innu – the Indigenous leadership there – is

quite pleased that it will be a full tripartite process now going forward.

MS. ROGERS:

Great. So how will the

department be involved in that?

MS. DEMPSTER:

This will be a full inquiry.

The only way that the CSSD will be involved is, I guess, if we are asked for

various information, things like that. We'll certainly co-operate in whatever

manner we can because, at the end of the day, I believe we all want the exact

same thing and that's improvement to the care of the children and youth.

MS. ROGERS:

Do you have any idea of when

it might actually start, the timeline? No, not yet.

Okay,

thank you.

The

Child and Youth Advocate's review for Nunatsiavut, I believe it is.

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes.

MS. ROGERS:

How will the department be

involved in that?

MS. DEMPSTER:

So, Nunatsiavut, they asked

for something entirely different.

MS. ROGERS:

Yes.

MS. DEMPSTER:

That was that the Advocate

would come in and do a review of the current system. I believe that is due to be

wrapped up by the end of this calendar year, did I read that?

OFFICIAL:

Fiscal year.

MS. DEMPSTER:

This fiscal year.

MS. ROGERS:

And just now starting, yes?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes, and once again, our

department will co-operate wherever and whatever means that we can coming out

the review. We will certainly embrace the recommendations.

I think

I can speak for the staff, I've been here nine months and I saw that any time

there are recommendations put forth to improve safety to the children and youth

in care, we certainly embrace those.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay.

Social

work caseloads, what are they like now in child protection and then also what's

happening in Labrador as well with caseloads?

MS. DEMPSTER:

We have a provincial ratio

of one in 20. There are many places where we are averaging around one in 22,

but, as I spoke to in my opening, we are really, really challenged in certain

parts of Labrador.

MS. ROGERS:

Mm-hmm.

MS. DEMPSTER:

So one of the things that we' going to try and address is in Natuashish, in

particular, we do a fly in and fly out, two weeks in, two weeks out.

We have

recently had some challenges around vacancies in Nain. So we have been kind of

building onto the Natuashish fly in, fly out, but dispersing them to other areas

where they' needed.

There's

been a tremendous effort gone into trying to recruit. We had zone managers that

went over and actually addressed the latest social worker graduates. I was

really pleased to hear from my staff that, I believe, this week there were 12

interviews as a result of them coming in.

We'

trying. It's always been a challenge and I guess it's going to continue to be,

maybe.

MS. ROGERS:

Great. Yes, I understand

that.

Boys

and girls clubs got a huge cut. Where are they this year? It was core funding –

well, there was the whole discussion about –

MS. DEMPSTER:

That's not our department.

MS. ROGERS:

Not your department, okay, I

wasn't sure.

Okay.

Thank you very much.

Can we

have the most recent stats on reports under the

Adult Protection Act ? Is this under

your department?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Yes, that is.

Within

the last fiscal year, we have had one that has been declared in need of

protection. There have certainly been a lot of improvements in the area of adult

protection. I think all of that can be attributed to the fact that people are

now more understanding of their rights and more in tune with when an adult may

need help or support. There's just been one.

MS. ROGERS:

Okay. When will we see a

provincial disabilities act?

MS. DEMPSTER:

There's a lot of work

happening with the act. It's a monumental daunting task. I go down sometimes and

I speak to Mary Reid and these folks down there. It's a lot of work, as they'

working with stakeholders and community groups.

Maybe

because I've been here a number of years and I've heard timelines attached to

things and you get held accountable, so I hesitate to put a timeline, other than

we' working on it and, hopefully, in the not-to-distant future.

MS. ROGERS:

So not by the end of this

fiscal year or …?

MS. DEMPSTER:

Consultations will be held

with the Advisory Council, the Coalition of Persons with Disabilities and

various other stakeholders. Sessions will culminate in an inclusion symposium; I

think we talked about that recently. We will be holding a symposium in early

December. Service NL, my colleague, is a part of this initiative in terms of her

work with review of the Buildings

over.

I have

the Disability Policy Office, but when people come to us I reach out to TW and

Service NL to have them help me make this a more inclusive province. We will

have that symposium in early December. Then we will take that information, go

from there and continue to work on the act.

MS. ROGERS:

I have no further questions.

I want to thank you, once again, for the critical, crucial work that you all do.

Thank you for your time this evening.

It's

great to see some of the advances that I know many of you have been working on

to achieve over the past few years. Congratulations for that.

Thank

you very much.

MS. DEMPSTER:

You' kindly welcome.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

Since

there are no further questions, I now ask the Clerk to recall 1.1.01.

CLERK:

1.1.01 to 3.1.06 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Shall 1.1.01 to 3.1.06

inclusive carry?

All

those in favour?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against?

Carried.

motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 3.1.06 carried.

CHAIR:

Shall the total carry?

All

those in favour?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against?

Carried.

motion, Department of Children, Seniors and Social Development, total heads,

carried.

CHAIR:

Shall I report the

Estimates of the Department of Children, Seniors and Social Development carried

without amendment?

All

those in favour?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against?

Carried.

motion, Estimates of the Department of Children, Seniors and Social Development

and Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation carried without amendment.

CHAIR:

We do have minutes from

the last meeting we need to pass. I call for a motion to approve the minutes

from April 19.

Ms.

Parsley.

All

those in favour?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against?

Carried.

motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR:

The next meeting of the

Social Services Committee will be on Monday, April 30, at 6 p.m.

now ask for a motion to adjourn.

moved by Ms. Perry.

Thank you so much. Have a good night.

motion, the Committee adjourned.