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November 18, 1987

34th Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

L008 - Wed 18 Nov 1987 / Mer 18 nov 1987

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

GEORGE BELL

LATVIAN INDEPENDENCE DAY

SOCIAL ASSISTANCE

OPERATION FALCON

STOMACH BITTERS

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

ONTARIO ECONOMY

FEDERAL TAX REFORM PROPOSALS

TRANSFER PAYMENTS

PRESCOTT-RUSSELL SCHOOL BOARDS

RESPONSES

TRANSFER PAYMENTS

ONTARIO ECONOMY

FEDERAL TAX REFORM PROPOSALS

PRESCOTT-RUSSELL SCHOOL BOARDS

ONTARIO ECONOMY

TRANSFER PAYMENTS

CHARLES MACNAUGHTON

MEMBER’S COMMENTS

ORAL QUESTIONS

FEDERAL TAX REFORM PROPOSALS

HOUSING ALLOCATIONS

ONTARIO ECONOMY

DEFICIT REDUCTION

NIAGARA REGIONAL POLICE

RENTAL ACCOMMODATION

TRANSFER PAYMENTS

WASTE DISPOSAL

ONTARIO FISHERIES ADVISORY COUNCIL

OSHAWA AUTO AUCTION LTD.

ARGOSY FINANCIAL GROUP OF CANADA LTD.

FACILITY FOR YOUNG OFFENDERS

GREAT LAKES WATER QUALITY

PROPERTY TAXES

AIR QUALITY

NOTICE OF DISSATISFACTION

PETITION

COCHRANE TEMISKAMING RESOURCE CENTRE

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

CANADA CHRISTIAN COLLEGE AND SCHOOL OF GRADUATE THEOLOGICAL STUDIES ACT

TOURISM ADVISORY BOARD ACT

ORDERS OF THE DAY

THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (CONTINUED)

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

Prayers.

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

Mr. Swart: I would like to remind this House that the Minister of Financial Institutions (Mr. R. F. Nixon) assured Ontarians that insurance companies have voluntarily complied with a freeze on automobile insurance rates. My assistant checked this out and was given the same assurance when he contacted the superintendent of insurance. In addition, Mr. Weir told him that if details of individual cases were forwarded to him, he would “pursue them with the insurance companies involved and bring to bear his moral suasion over those companies.”

Unfortunately, when the people of Ontario make their own inquiries, the story changes quite dramatically. John Briggs of Toronto recently received a renewal notice from his insurance company. Although he had had no accidents, claims or traffic violations, his premiums were increased by seven per cent. When Mr. Briggs called the superintendent, he was told by the individual on the phone that the superintendent’s office was aware that “not all companies are complying with the freeze.” He was further informed that there are another 250 insurance companies on the market and he was advised to shop around.

No offer was made, as was made to my assistant, who identified himself, to pursue his case with the insurance company involved.

It is bad enough that this government refuses to take effective action to end this highway robbery. It is even worse when that same government parrots the line of the Insurance Bureau of Canada. When this government engages in this sort of doubletalk to protect the very companies which transferred profits to the Liberal election coffers, it has gone too far and is not worthy of the trust or respect of the very people it has sworn to represent and protect.

GEORGE BELL

Mr. McLean: I would like to draw the attention of the members of this Legislature to the fact that our world-class Toronto Blue Jays have in their lineup the most valuable player in the entire American League in the person of George Bell. This MVP award marks the first occasion the award has gone to a player on a Canadian-based ball club.

At the risk of being slightly immodest, I take a certain degree of pleasure in reminding the members of this House that the former Progressive Conservative leader, Bill Davis, was most instrumental in bringing major league baseball to Ontario.

The MVP award is indeed a credit that belongs to George Bell. This very high honour is a personal honour to the prowess of Mr. Bell, but our tributes should go out as well to the Blue Jays management, owners, sponsors and fans and his teammates.

The highest honour for a major league ballplayer will only heighten the awareness to the world of our wonderful province. George Bell has won the award, but all of Ontario will stand to gain from what we can expect will be an influx of tourism to our province.

This may well be a mixed metaphor, but the ball is now in the court of this government to ensure that all of Ontario will benefit. I want to say I do not want to see them strike out, be caught between the bases or thrown out of the ballpark -- but out of office, yes.

LATVIAN INDEPENDENCE DAY

Mr. Ruprecht: November 18 is an important date in the history of freedom-loving peoples everywhere and of special significance to our citizens of Latvian ancestry, for today is the commemoration of the 69th anniversary of the 1918 proclamation of Latvia as a sovereign and democratic nation.

We who live in a democratic society do not always appreciate our good fortune. We take for granted our freedom of speech, of press, religion and travel, and even the right to openly criticize our government.

The courageous determination of the Latvian people to regain this kind of freedom is a source of inspiration to all mankind. Indeed, having tasted freedom, neither the weapons of starvation nor prison walls could extinguish the torch of freedom and hope that has been resolutely passed on from one heroic generation to another.

Those who came to Canada from Latvia have made important contributions to the development of our province and country and to the enrichment of our culture.

Today we have reason to admire the unbreakable spirit of optimism and hope of our Latvian friends that, in spite of past tragic events, they maintain the ideal of democracy and independence and their dream that Latvians will one day determine their own future and determine their own destiny.

It is with great pleasure that we extend the heartiest congratulations and best wishes to our friends as they commemorate Latvian Independence Day.

SOCIAL ASSISTANCE

Mr. R. F. Johnston: This morning’s papers, both the Globe and Mail and the Toronto Star, ran stories about great surprise about welfare levels being high in Ontario while the unemployment rates are still low. In fact, the Globe and Mail went so far as to say that in 10 years of analysis this is the first time anybody has drawn attention to this or noticed this fact, which of course would make some sense in that the Ministry of Community and Social Services is so lax about gathering statistics.

I, on the other hand, did this, as the minister may recall, in February 1986, pointing out this phenomenon and suggesting that it was due to many causes which should be investigated.

Unfortunately, what happens is that, off the top of their heads, the Minister of Community and Social Services (Mr. Sweeney) and others extrapolate intolerably, in my view, as to what the causes of this are when they have no statistical basis upon which to base it. Ms. Harrington in the Toronto Star then says it is due to an in-migration of people from other provinces, with no statistical basis for that, I suggest. It is also suggested in the Globe and Mail that people are dying to get off minimum wage and on welfare because they can live so handsomely. Again, there is no statistical base for that.

I suggest it is perhaps time, because of this unfortunate phenomenon in the province, that the Minister of Community and Social Services gather this information, publish the information and take steps to co-ordinate efforts with our employment agencies in Ontario to make sure we end this terrible tragedy and not to lay blame around the province.

OPERATION FALCON

Mr. Pollock: Many questions must be answered by this government with respect to the serious problem raised in the House yesterday about Ontario’s role in Operation Falcon.

How could illegal American investigations continue in Canada for a year without Ontario’s knowledge? Why were two fast-talking, admitted liars and smugglers allowed to escape criminal charges by federal and provincial authorities? Why did 96 charges against Canadians fail to produce one single conviction?

Why did Ontario’s Ministry of Natural Resources staff print and circulate a confidential intelligence report on wildlife agencies across Canada and slander innocent people like Kay McKeever, known to conservationists as the Owl Lady and winner of the Order of Canada in 1986; the Dailley family, who own the African Lion Safari near Hamilton; and John Heppes of the Canadian Wildlife Service, who is Canadian administrator of the Committee on the Status of Endangered Wildlife in Canada?

Why did the ministry refuse to retract that intelligence report when it became public or even to issue an apology? Why has the ministry refused to disclose the cost of Operation Falcon? Why has the minister refused to take any steps to protect the integrity of the innocent or his own ministry staff by way of a full public response? The people of Ontario deserve a formal investigation to find out these answers. I call on the Premier (Mr. Peterson) to order one today.

STOMACH BITTERS

Mr. Reville: The throne speech reveals that this government is long on concern but short on action. To use the baseball image, I guess we would say, “Good worry; no act.” Sometimes the consequences of this lack of action are simply disappointment among those of us who hoped for better. Sometimes the consequences of the lack of action, in fact, are the deaths of people in Ontario. I speak about the lack of action on the part of this government and, in particular, on the part of the Ministry of Consumer and Commercial Relations to deal with the very vexing problem of the abuse of stomach bitters.

The former Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations, who is glancing at me at this moment, indicated solemnly in this House in December 1985 that he was looking at the problem of stomach bitters. While he looked at it, people in Ontario, particularly in Toronto, continued to die from overdoses of stomach bitters.

It is not an easy problem to deal with substances that have a legitimate use but are abused. However, it is a problem and it is a problem that must be addressed. One wonders where the member for Parkdale (Mr. Ruprecht) has been on this issue, because most of the people who die from stomach bitters do so in Parkdale, but it is not confined to Parkdale. This government must act now to prevent people who are vulnerable from dying because of government inaction.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

Hon. R. F. Nixon: I would like to report to the House today on a number of important issues associated with the Treasurer’s responsibilities. In particular, I would like to provide some comments on the federal tax reform proposals. I will also be announcing the level of transfer payments to hospitals, schools, municipalities, colleges and universities for the 1988-89 fiscal year. To begin, however, I would like to review this year’s economic performance as well as Ontario’s fiscal position.

ONTARIO ECONOMY

Hon. R. F. Nixon: For the past five years, the Ontario economy has experienced one of its strongest expansions on record. We are now in the 21st consecutive quarter of growth. During this time, real output has grown by more than 32 per cent and employment has grown by 19 per cent.

Current economic data indicate that the economy is fundamentally sound. There have been steady gains in employment and income. A survey by Statistics Canada indicates that business investment will rise by more than 13 per cent in 1987 over 1986 levels. As a result, nonresidential investment in the province should exceed the $25-billion level. This investment will reinforce future growth and support job creation n the province.

Based on current performance, economic growth in 1987 will be stronger than forecast in the budget. In real terms, the Ontario economy is expected to grow by 3.9 per cent this year. In line with the stronger growth of the economy, employment is even more robust than anticipated. Job creation for 1987 is expected to average over 140,000. The unemployment rate, which has displayed a downward trend throughout the year, will average 6.2 per cent in 1987. It is currently 5.7 per cent, the lowest it has been in the past decade.

In recent weeks, the disruption in world stock exchanges has injected a sobering note in the economy’s expansion. Households and businesses are faced with a heightened level of uncertainty. As a result, they can be expected to exercise prudence and caution in their spending decisions. However, it is generally believed that the stock market decline reflected overvaluation in that market and not necessarily a loss of confidence in the underlying economic performance.

The fundamental strength of the Ontario economy remains intact. Moreover, the general economic effects of the loss of stock values have been counterbalanced, in part, by interest rate and exchange rate declines. Accordingly, Ontario’s economy will continue to grow during the next year.

In December, I will be tabling the Economic and Fiscal Review prepared by Treasury staff. It will include an assessment of the current economic situation and the economic outlook for 1988 and beyond. This document will assist the standing committee on finance and economic affairs in its prebudget deliberations.

The second-quarter Ontario Finances publication shows that the 1987 budget plan is on track. I am pleased that this mid-year report shows the level of net cash requirements at $973 million for 1987-88, $7 million below the original budget estimate. The operating deficit is now forecast at $15 million, an improvement of $13 million over the budget plan.

FEDERAL TAX REFORM PROPOSALS

Hon. R. F. Nixon: Last summer the federal government tabled its proposals for tax reform, a two stage process that would change personal and corporate income taxes in 1988 and federal sales taxes at some future date.

Members will be aware that the federal standing committee on finance and economic affairs, the Blenkarn committee, has just tabled its report. The report contains several alternative recommendations to the federal Minister of Finance’s proposals. The Ontario standing committee on finance and economic affairs has not yet had an opportunity to review and offer advice on the white paper proposals, particularly their impact on Ontario. I hope the committee will have an opportunity to undertake that review.

My intention is to continue to study the federal changes and to listen to the advice of interested individuals and groups about the appropriateness of the reforms. Ontario’s response to these changes will be guided by the need to maintain the ability of the tax system to deliver adequate revenues in a fair, competitive and simple fashion.

The current tax system is not as fair as it could be. Too many people and corporations have been able to avoid their fair share of tax by taking advantage of tax breaks that have been built into the system over time. Reform must address this problem.

Canadian businesses compete in world markets. While many factors determine how well a corporation’s products and services stack up against the rest of the world’s, the tax regime within which a corporation operates is important. Historically, the Canadian tax system has proved to be competitive, in large part because of its treatment of investment undertaken by the manufacturing sector. We must ensure that reform does not jeopardize this competitive position.

Earlier this month, I had an opportunity to share some of my thoughts and concerns with the federal and provincial ministers of finance. I indicated that broadening tax bases and lowering tax rates will help to achieve the goals of fairness and competitiveness. It really means that our tax rates are competitive or lower than American jurisdictions, and businesses can therefore see their way on a business plan to locate here rather than elsewhere, in response to the comment from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. B. Rae).

I asked Mr. Wilson to consider the growing concern that middle-income families gain the least from reform. I also left with him a number of other personal, corporate and sales tax issues that have been brought to my attention. I intend to continue the dialogue on these issues at our next meeting in early December.

The personal income tax reform proposals would remove a number of the lowest-income tax filers from the tax rolls, including 300,000 in Ontario. This is a positive step and improves the fairness of the tax system. It was for precisely this reason that Ontario enriched its tax reduction program in the two most recent budgets.

The federal reform proposals call for a cut in federal personal income tax beginning in 1988. Since Ontario’s personal income tax is calculated as 50 per cent of federal tax, this means a reduction in Ontario’s personal income tax revenues as well. Even by federal estimates, which seem conservative, Ontario’s personal income tax revenues for that year would decline by at least $430 million as a direct result of federal actions. I am currently examining how best to cope with this fiscal impact.

I should interject that the package, as presented by the Minister of Finance, if enacted, would essentially be neutral for the first two years in Ontario because of increases in corporation income tax revenues.

Federal tax reform will also affect a number of Ontario tax-based support programs for lower-income citizens. The Ontario tax credits, tax reduction and Ontario health insurance plan premium assistance all provide benefits to individuals based on their taxable income. Reform changes most people’s taxable income, primarily by converting deductions to tax credits. Ontario must restructure these important assistance programs; otherwise, most current beneficiaries would no longer be eligible.

I am reviewing options to restore the distribution of benefits in a progressive and simple fashion, but to do this, more flexibility will be required than is currently available under the tax collection agreement with Ottawa. I have asked the federal minister to provide provinces with greater freedom under these agreements to design and implement better tax and support policies for their citizens.

We are going to continue to examine the impact of free trade on Ontario’s economy. In this context, tax reform must support Ontario’s competitive position, particularly in terms of our corporate income tax structure. A more competitive tax system requires a broader base, lower rates and a fairer distribution of the burden among profitable corporations. Tax uniformity and reduced compliance costs for business are important goals, but these objectives must not be achieved at the expense of economic growth potential.

Federal tax reform proposals also need to be carefully examined in light of this government’s priorities for improved education, more affordable housing and the adoption of new technology. Federal reform proposals must be judged in terms of how well they achieve the broader economic and social priorities of Canada and Ontario.

The final details of stage one of the federal reform package will not be known until the federal position is made clear in Parliament, which is expected in the next few weeks. Once I see the legislation and assess the full impact of corporate tax reform on several key areas, I will be in a better position to determine the extent to which Ontario is able to parallel the federal proposals in the Ontario corporate tax structure.

The review of a possible corporate tax collection agreement with the federal government continues. There are compliance benefits for business in such an agreement, but there are also implications for our ability to retain control over Ontario’s fiscal and economic policy. I have commissioned a study to help me assess this important issue and will report the finding to the House in about three months.

The Wilson tax paper proposes a multistage national sales tax to replace the federal manufacturers’ sales tax and the provincial retail sales tax. Many concerns have been expressed about the possible impact of a new, broad-based sales tax on low-income Canadians. This government will not enter into an agreement on a new national sales tax unless we are provided the flexibility to ensure its fair application for low-income individuals and families through a system of tax credits or exemptions.

As well, a multistage tax could result in significant cost increases for the public sector, including local governments, hospitals, colleges and universities. I have asked the federal minister to provide either a plan for a tax-free approach or an appropriate compensation mechanism for provincial and other public sector transactions, should this new tax be implemented.

Supporters of a multistage sales tax believe that there would be significant economic benefits to be realized if such a tax were to replace the existing, poorly designed federal manufacturers’ sales tax. They cite the multistage sales tax’s fairness and the improved competitive position for the Canadian business sector. Business also believes that a joint federal-provincial sales tax would be simpler and could lower compliance costs.

To ensure that our concerns are addressed and that the potential benefits are substantiated, staff will continue discussions with federal officials on the proposal. I bring these issues to the attention of the Legislature because it is important that members be aware of the impending substantial revisions in the Canadian and Ontario tax systems. I view tax reform as an opportunity to make our tax system fairer, simpler, and of course, more equitable.

TRANSFER PAYMENTS

Hon. R. F. Nixon: On November 3, 1986, I announced the funding levels for major transfer programs for our current fiscal year. The budget, presented to the House on May 20, 1987, contained the necessary funding provisions. Today I would like to announce fiscal transfers for the 1988-89 fiscal year which begins next April 1.

The fundamentals of the Ontario economy remain strong. However, there are some risks surrounding the outlook for the world’s major economies, which make forward planning complicated for business and for families. The same uncertainty affects government finances and accentuates the need for wide and thorough consultations as I prepare the next budget for presentation to the House in the spring of 1988.

The five major transfer payments I am announcing today are made up of operating support to hospitals, schools, universities and colleges and a range of grants to municipalities. These payments amount to more than 40 per cent of the whole provincial expenditures. With such a large share of expenditures committed in this way several months prior to the actual budget tabling and the beginning of the next fiscal year, we must plan carefully in order to retain the fiscal flexibility to adapt to changing circumstances.

At the same time, I have to consider the situation of the public institutions that receive these major transfer payments. They also have to plan. Municipalities and school boards must set their budgets and mill rates for their fiscal year which begins January 1. Hospitals and post-secondary institutions need a basis on which to ensure quality service to the public. In the past two years, the province has strengthened its partnership with these important institutions, and we must continue to share in our common goals with the resources available to us.

With these factors in mind, I have decided to continue the government’s practice of making early announcements of the major transfer payment levels. As noted in the recent speech from the throne, the government will meet the commitments it has made within a framework of fiscal responsibility.

The Minister of Health (Mrs. Caplan) will soon be making an announcement regarding hospital funding, which will exceed $5.4 billion in 1988-89. Resources available to hospitals for their costs of operation will increase by 6.9 per cent in 1988-89.

Operating grants to school boards, to be funded by next year’s budget, will increase by 6.8 per cent to more than $3.8 billion. This amount incorporates the full extension of provincial support to separate schools, and initial funding to implement the government’s commitment to reduce class size in elementary schools.

Transfer payments to the municipal sector will increase by 6.7 per cent to almost $4.1 billion overall. Details of specific municipal grant programs will be announced over the next few weeks.

My colleagues will provide further information in a timely manner so that individual institutions will soon be aware of their own grant levels.

Last year, Treasury staff and I benefited from the advice received from the new standing committee on finance and economic affairs. The prebudget hearings held by the committee were a valued innovation in opening the budget process to wider public participation.

I look forward to hearing the views of members on the issues I have raised today and other budgetary matters as I begin preparation for the next budget, to be read in the spring of 1988.

PRESCOTT-RUSSELL SCHOOL BOARDS

Hon. Mr. Ward: I am pleased to inform the members today of the release of the report of the Prescott-Russell School Board Study Committee. I am tabling it with the Clerk.

Ten months ago, the committee undertook the task of addressing the needs of Prescott-Russell. Implementation of Bills 30 and 75 in the area was offering a complex challenge.

Prescott-Russell is a unique situation in Ontario; its residents are predominantly French speaking and the majority are supporters of the Roman Catholic separate school system.

Guided by the principles of Bills 30 and 75, and respecting the requirements of the Canadian Constitution and Charter of Rights, the committee was asked to recommend procedures for the creation of stable and representative school board structures for the Prescott-Russell community.

During its hearings, the committee received 50 presentations and accepted 94 briefs.

Le résultat de ces démarches fait l’objet d’un rapport exhaustif sur les besoins de la population de Prescott-Russell. Mon ministère étudiera attentivement le rapport du comité et les recommandations qu’il contient.

I wish to thank the chairman, Marc Godbout, his committee members, Frank Addario, Simon Brisbois and their staff for their dedicated hard work.

Mr. D. S. Cooke: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: In view of the fact that the statement of the Treasurer (Mr. R. F. Nixon) is a major one covering economic issues, transfer issues, tax issues and federal tax issues, I wonder whether we could have unanimous consent of the House to allow each opposition party to have 10 minutes to respond to a major statement. We do not very often have major statements of this kind; I am asking for unanimous consent.

Mr. Speaker: There has been a request for unanimous consent to extend the time allotted by the standing orders by five minutes for each opposition party.

Hon. Mr. Conway: Mr. Speaker, observing the interest of the opposition and also noting that the standing orders do set out very clear provisions in this respect, limiting ministerial statements to a maximum of 20 minutes and members’ statements to a maximum of 10 minutes, I certainly would not want to curtail debate, and so we have no objection to the honourable member’s position.

Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?

Agreed to.

Ms. Bryden: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: As the previous speaker noted, since the statement of the Treasurer (Mr. R. F. Nixon) covers both Treasury matters and Revenue matters, as well as a good many other matters that concern a lot of the members, it would have been appropriate at least to provide the Revenue critic with a copy of the statement -- there is none on my desk -- and possibly to provide all members with a copy of the statement prior to its delivery.

Hon. Mr. Nixon: On the point of order: We were fairly careful to see that copies were provided to the leaders and the Treasury critics. They might have shared those. Next time I will certainly see that Revenue critics get it as well. Frankly, copies of this are now being made available to everybody here, as far as I know, because every member of the House is deeply involved in this important matter.

Mr. Speaker: I think the standing orders are quite clear.

RESPONSES

TRANSFER PAYMENTS

Mr. B. Rae: I welcome the statement of the Treasurer today. First, I want to say I think it is only appropriate that he would announce the transfers as he has done, because of the uncertainty which he himself created along with his seatmate, the Premier (Mr. Peterson). In a sense, he is the victim of his own problems, having panicked as a result of the so-called Black Monday on the stock market and created as much uncertainty as his remarks caused in a great many municipalities, hospitals and school boards. It is perfectly obvious that the Treasurer had no alternative but to now assure those school boards and others that transfer payments would be forthcoming.

My colleagues will be responding to some comments made with respect to the transfer payments. If I could start with those, the one comment I would make is that it is very difficult for us to respond to the simple bald number, except by saying that if one looks, for example, at the area of the school boards, which my colleague the member for Scarborough West (Mr. R. F.

Johnston) will be commenting on, when one takes into account the fact that this 6.8 per cent increase includes both the additional cost of separate school funding as well as what is described here as “the initial funding” -- I do not know what that means -- “to implement the government’s commitment to reduce class size in elementary schools,” it is clear that the rest of the system will not be seeing a substantial increase.

We can only say that until we get the fine-tuned numbers from the Ministry of Education, it is going to be difficult for us to launch a full-scale critique, which I know the Treasurer wants to have from us. It is very difficult for us to comment on those numbers in the absence of any sense of what the priorities of the government are and precisely where this money is being spent.

ONTARIO ECONOMY

Mr. B. Rae: Let me comment on the Treasurer’s overall statement with respect to the economy.

I guess the major comment I would make is that his choice of statistics is interestingly selective, because while he reflects the official conventional wisdom of the day that everything is going extremely well, the deficit is down a little bit -- I will be speaking to that -- the rate of unemployment continues to fall -- which we, of course, all welcome -- and the degree of growth has been substantial -- it has really been remarkable in the last five years and continues to be very substantial -- it is remarkable not because the Treasurer is doing anything differently than any other Minister of Finance will do.

In fact, the longer he occupies that august office, except for perhaps the occasional sartorial lapse on his part, he resembles more and more the fiscal conservative that he used to decry so often when he was on this side of the House.

Hon. R. F. Nixon: Should I wear a three-piece, double-breasted suit?

Mr. B. Rae: Perhaps a watch chain would be appropriate on days as sombre as this. He is sounding like Calvin Coolidge, but he has not started to look like him yet.

There is another face to what is going on in the province today. There is the face of the fact that today there are still kids in the province who are going to school hungry. There are thousands of people who are homeless. Yes, it is true that Jaguar sales are up. In fact, anybody looking around town will find that there are more and more of these luxury cars from Europe being sold and bought in the province, some of them, in fact, even belonging to very distinguished members of the Treasurer’s own party.

But the fact remains that what is also happening at the same time is that the number of people who are waiting to get into Ontario Housing has increased by 50 per cent since this government took office, the number of children who are hungry and homeless has increased since this government took office and the food bank, which now services over 130 agencies in the city of Toronto today, issued a report last month showing that 20 per cent of its clients are under the age of five.

I think it is time, when the Treasurer of this province makes a statement as to what the economic health of this province is, that he talk about some of those economic realities, not simply the official statistics as they emerged from Statistics Canada, but about what it is like on the street today in this province and what hardships people are facing, because those too are statistics that mean something to people and that reflect the reality of life in the province.

Yes, it is true that we are more affluent than ever before, but the irony that we have today -- and it is the first time in post-war history that we can say it -- is that as affluence grows, so is poverty growing in the province today, and we are not addressing that issue, the Legislature is not being asked to address that issue and the Treasurer has not addressed that issue. That, to me, is something which should be addressed at the heart of a Treasurer’s report in the province today: what is happening to people, what is happening to their working conditions and what is happening to real wages.

I think it is fair to say that at the same time as we have a decline in the rate of unemployment, we also have the reality that people who themselves are employed are going to these food banks because the minimum wage does not allow them to keep body and soul together.

The Minister of Community and Social Services (Mr. Sweeney) announced last week an eight per cent increase in the shelter allowance for people who are on general welfare benefits and family benefits. I say to the minister and to the Treasurer that when we have as much as two thirds or three quarters of that allowance being used for shelter in Ontario today, which is what is happening, we can rest assured that what working families and poor families are being asked to do is take from the pot that should be going to food and they are being forced to put it into housing.

There are people who are going hungry today simply because this province has not figured out a way of distributing its income properly.

So I look forward to hearing from the Treasurer in December as he prepares his Economic and Fiscal Review. I only hope and expect that review would in fact indicate just exactly what is happening with respect to the real economy in the province today and what is happening to working people.

FEDERAL TAX REFORM PROPOSALS

Mr. B. Rae: I have one comment to make on the sales tax issue with respect to the statement that the minister has made on tax reform. It is fundamentally this: I have not heard a clear statement from the Treasurer as to whether or not he believes that corporations should be paying a larger share, which is the thrust of both Mr. Wilson’s statement and Mr. Blenkarn’s report. If what I have heard from him today is correct, he has managed to place himself to the right of Don Blenkarn.

As somebody who knows Don Blenkarn, I can only congratulate the Treasurer for occupying that turf, because I do not think any political analyst thought there was any ground there to occupy, but he is managing to stake it out.

The Treasurer should listen to the comments he is making in this report. He is saying that our corporate tax structure has to match and, in fact, be lower than that of the United States. This is a government that is objecting to free trade. At the same time it is objecting to free trade, it is saying, “We must have free trade in taxation in order to be able to compete,” which means that the Minister of Economics for Ontario, the person who is going to be setting our tax rate in Ontario, is not the Honourable Robert Nixon, the Treasurer, it is Ronald Reagan in the United States. That is essentially what the Treasurer is saying.

All I can say is, if that is his message to Ottawa, he is indeed delivering a mixed message. The message he seems to be delivering to Ottawa is, “Go easy on the corporate tax side, because if you do anything too tough to require insurance companies and banks to start paying some tax, there are going to be problems.”

So I am glad the Treasurer made the statement. I am glad we have had a few moments to comment on it. It is obvious that it is going to be the subject of some considerable debate in this province for some time to come.

PRESCOTT-RUSSELL SCHOOL BOARDS

Mr. R. F. Johnston: I have just a couple of comments on the statement by the Minister of Education (Mr. Ward) on the report of the Prescott-Russell School Board Study Committee. I am pleased to have the statement. I notice there was no discussion by the minister of the content of the statement, and I presume that means it is problematic and that he is being confronted with some difficult choices, as the people in Prescott-Russell have been for these many years, in terms of the role of a French board there. As yet, I have not had a chance to review it in detail, so I am not able to respond at this time to the detail.

I would like to say, though, that it is welcome that it has come, that it is time for us to deal with it and that it is also time we heard from the government about what it is doing about other French-language boards across the province. We were told there would be a two-year study of French school boards across the province, and we have yet to hear anything further about when that is going to be undertaken and who is to head it up.

Mr. Speaker: There are just seven seconds left. Did the member for Beaches-Woodbine want to put something in there?

Ms. Bryden: The Treasurer (Mr. R. F. Nixon) has not made clear --

Mr. Speaker: The member’s time has expired.

Mr. Harris: She can have a couple of minutes of our time, if she wants.

ONTARIO ECONOMY

Mr. Harris: I do want to comment briefly on the economic statement. As indicated by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. B. Rae), we are going to have to wait and see the specifics of a number of these things to find out whether in fact the transfers are going to mean anything or whether they are not going to mean anything.

I do want to comment briefly, though, on a few of the things that are mentioned in the statement by the Treasurer (Mr. R. F. Nixon). He says, “In real terms, the Ontario economy is expected to grow by 3.9 per cent.” I point that out because if we add inflation and the growth in the economy to the money likely available to the Treasurer, we are probably looking at somewhere in the order of another eight or nine per cent increase in revenues over the next year for this Treasurer and for this government.

None of the transfers that we just heard announced comes anywhere close to that, so the first thing that jumps out at me is that the Treasurer does not intend to pass on, through his transfers to those agencies, nearly the increase in the amount of money that he and the government of Ontario are going to get. He has not done that in the past, either.

Whoever gets the biggest piece of money is always the Treasurer and the government; somehow it does not go towards the deficit. A little bit has gone towards the deficit -- some 10 per cent of his increased revenues go in that direction -- but it is really a disgrace when we take a look at the amount of money that he has had over this period of time.

So what the Treasurer is telling us is that his revenues will go up by the rate of inflation, whatever that is going to be; most people say five per cent. Of course, in the city of Toronto, if we look at the municipal transfers, inflation in Toronto is running at 5.9 per cent, the highest in the province, so what the Treasurer has really said to them is, “We will transfer to you 0.8 per cent.” With inflation in Toronto running at 5.9 per cent, he is going to transfer 6.7 per cent. So the city of Toronto will get 0.8 per cent.

The Treasurer tells us the economic activity is going to be up 3.9 per cent, so he is going to grab three per cent from the city of Toronto to put into his own program somewhere or other.

I mention it in those terms because, of course, the Treasurer does not put it in those terms. He puts out this percentage. Yet in one part of the report he is so proud of the growth, in another part of the report he is so proud of the amount of money he is transferring and then in another part of his statement he talks about fiscal responsibility. We have not seen from the Treasurer fiscal responsibility, because all this extra money he gets he does not pass on at a level equivalent to inflation and increase in economic activity through all the transfer payments he makes, but it still all gets eaten up somewhere in the budget, when he finally does bring out a budget.

I guess it would be passing strange of me to comment that most of the 3.9 per cent in that activity is, I am sure, based on trade and most of it trade with the United States, which I find a little ironic with the view this government has there.

I asked a question of the Treasurer last week on the $350 million in cuts. He said, “I will have a statement to make and some of it will become clear then.” When the second-quarter statements came out, I did not see anything there or anything today that tells us where the $350 million is being cut from and the government is more than halfway through the budget plan. The Treasurer says the budget plan is on track, but where is the $350 million in cuts? That is what will tell us if it is on track or not. Of course, that is a ridiculous statement.

The Treasurer also says in here that he is pleased that the midyear report shows the level of net cash requirements at $973 million. It is a disgrace that there is any net cash requirement in this year or last year, and the Treasurer knows that. He says it is $7 million below the original budget estimate. The operating deficit is now forecast at $15 million, an improvement of $13 million over the budget plan. What the Treasurer does not say is that after the first quarter it was an improvement of $15 million over the budget plan, so he is referring here to the second-quarter statements.

What has happened is a worsening of the position from the end of the first quarter to the second quarter. I guess he hopes he has enough of a cushion in the first quarter. He will keep referring back there instead of giving us the real picture. The government has a $2-million deficit there between the first and the second quarter.

It is not in the statement but I found it interesting that while the Treasurer was talking about Canadian businesses competing, I think he gave a little aside that the cost of doing business in Ontario is cheaper than in the United States. I did not see it, however, in the written text. It will appear in Hansard if he does not recall having said that.

Hon. R. F. Nixon: It says on the front of the statement, “Check against delivery.”

Mr. Harris: I am interested in that particular part of the Treasurer’s statement because I would be interested in knowing what are all the factors he has included in there. I know many Ontario businessmen disagree with him. Many though, quite frankly, do agree with him. The interesting point is that he believes it and he said it. If the cost of doing business in Ontario is cheaper than in the United States why would he have the slightest concern about a freer trade agreement with the United States? I just find that passing strange as well.

Mr. Sterling: It does not make sense. It does not add up.

Mr. Harris: It does not add up, of course, and in fact it is silly and it reflects the silliness of this government on free trade. They talk about how wonderful Ontario is and how we can compete, but we should be afraid of it. What does the public think and what stand should be taken to help poor, old John Turner? There are so many contradictions in the things the government does.

TRANSFER PAYMENTS

Mr. Harris: I want to allow a minute or two for my colleague the member for Burlington South (Mr. Jackson) to comment on the education transfers.

When we get into the specific transfers, it is obvious that the government is not passing on all the economic activity that it is receiving and, of course, if we look at hospitals, for example, at 6.9 per cent, the lowest percentage increase, lower than 1986, lower than 1985, lower than 1984, lower than 1983, and all this great economic activity the government has, it is less than inflation plus the economic activity it is getting and is the lowest increase in the last five or six years plus.

Until we see the breakdown, we do not know whether it will even be inflation on the existing programs depending on how much growth is in the system.

I mentioned the municipal transfers. It is the same problem there. What are the unconditional grants? What are not? When we see that we will be able to comment as to whether the government is even keeping up with inflation, let alone the economic activity. I will leave the education comments to our critic, my friend the member for Burlington South.

I guess the most disappointing thing of all in the statement -- and I will conclude as quickly as I can -- is the deficit, the total lack of control over spending. I guess maybe it is the hacks and flacks and the high-paced help, the baggage that came to this administration from Ottawa. I do not think it is the Robert Nixon I used to know, but it is the David Peterson I used to know. We have in Ontario essentially Trudeau economics: “If you have it, spend it all.

If you do not have it, borrow it.” The Treasurer knows what this is going to leave in the years to come, particularly for the young people and for those people who are going to have to pay in the future for the spending he is doing now.

I will defer to my colleague on education.

Mr. Jackson: It is perhaps fitting that the news to school boards is contained on page 13 in the Treasurer’s report. It is a most unlucky number for school boards in the coming year. Last year their funding arrangement was 7.5 per cent, which included the implementation of grade 12 in accordance with Bill 30, special program enhancements and general grants. This year we are looking at 6.8 per cent, which is expected to carry not only last year’s grade 12 transfer, but also grade 13.

There is the funny statement about initial funding. What does “initial funding” mean for our elementary schoolchildren? Does it mean it is going to be only grade 1 this year, or does it mean it is going to be grades 1 and 2? The Treasurer has abandoned his commitment to 60 per cent funding. It is going to take him 100 years at this level of funding in order to honour his commitment to bring the funding levels in this province back to 60 per cent.

Hon. Mr. Riddell: I would like to ask for unanimous consent of the House to share a few words about a former member and colleague of this House who has passed away.

Mr. Speaker: Is there agreement?

Agreed to.

CHARLES MACNAUGHTON

Hon. Mr. Riddell: I regret to inform the House that Charlie MacNaughton, a former member of the provincial Parliament for Huron and former cabinet minister of the Ontario government, has passed away. I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to Charlie, one of Huron county’s finest sons.

For many years Charlie was one of the leading figures in Ontario politics, playing an important role in the formation of government policy under John Robarts and Bill Davis. Charlie served as a cabinet minister for more than 11 years and held nine different posts, a number that few others have matched. He may be best remembered in his role as Provincial Treasurer from 1966 to 1971, although he also made his mark in such other portfolios as Highways and Management Board.

Charlie was instrumental in the formation of our current system of regional governments in Ontario and was also well known as a strong advocate of the free enterprise system.

Although he served the province well, Charlie always remembered his Huron county roots. Before being elected in a May 1958 by-election, Charlie had been heavily involved in the community. He was a founding member of the South Huron Hospital in Exeter and served as a member of the South Huron District High School Board for nine years, including two as chairman. After being elected, Charlie quickly gained a reputation as a solid constituency man who always had the interests of Huron county at heart.

He fought hard to keep Centralia alive and well after the federal government decided to close the Royal Canadian Air Force base in June 1966. The success of Centralia today, with its agricultural college, its industries and its residential area, is a tribute to the determination and foresight of Charlie MacNaughton.

I felt honoured to be given the opportunity to follow in the footsteps of Charlie in providing Huron county with strong representation at Queen’s Park. As a matter of fact, after I was elected, I adopted as my theme song -- I believe it was an old Charlie Pride song -- I’m Walking in the Shoes that Charlie Wore.

Charlie was an amiable man most of the time, with a warm personality, but from time to time his temper was known to flare in the House. He had a number of memorable exchanges in the House, particularly with our current Canadian ambassador to the United Nations, Stephen Lewis, who was then of course the leader of the New Democratic Party.

I well recall an exchange he had with the present Treasurer, the member for Brant-Haldimand (Mr. R. F. Nixon), at the time of the by-election in 1973. The member for Brant-Haldimand was kind enough to come down to the riding to lend me a hand for one day. We happened to be walking down the street and he noticed this nice house. He said, “Who lives in there?” I said, “That is the home of Charlie MacNaughton.” He said: “I know Charlie and Addie well. Let’s drop in and pay them a visit.” That is exactly what we did. Little did we know at the time that a reporter with the Exeter Times-Advocate was following on our heels and took a picture or two.

Charlie was not at home, by the way. Addie was there and we had a nice visit with her, but about midnight that night Charlie phoned the home of the member for Brant-Haldimand. He was not very happy, apparently, with the visit we had paid to Addie and he was not long in telling the member for Brant-Haldimand that he did not think it was right that he should be taking the candidate into his home to pay Addie a visit at the time of the Huron by-election. I am sure the member for Brant-Haldimand recalls that well.

On behalf of myself, my party, the government and the people of Ontario, I offer sincere sympathy to Charlie’s wife, Adeline, commonly referred to as Addie, who still lives in Exeter, as well as to his son, John, of Toronto, and his daughter, Heather, Mrs. Bill Howlitt of Windsor. He is also survived by his brother, John, of Ladysmith, British Columbia.

Charlie will be long remembered for his contribution both to the province of Ontario and the people of Huron. For the interest of those members who would like to pay their respects, please be advised that Charlie is resting at the Dinney Funeral Home in Exeter, where visitations can be made on Thursday between the hours of two and four and seven and 10. Funeral services will be conducted at the Exeter United Church on Friday at 2 p.m.

Mr. Swart: I am pleased to rise and express on behalf of my party our tribute to Charles MacNaughton. I was not a colleague of his in this House but I met him on many occasions when I was in municipal government, both when I was reeve of Thorold and warden of Welland county and on the Niagara regional government. On one or two occasions I had occasion to feel a little bit of his anger, whether it was real or contrived, but in the meetings that I and my colleagues in council had with him we found him to be fair and we found him to be knowledgeable about his ministry.

I want to pay tribute to the great contribution that he made in this Legislature and to the people of Ontario over one and a half decades. In my contact with Charles MacNaughton, I sometimes found him to be partisan, even at the municipal level, but are we not all in a partisan field? I grew to respect him over those numbers of years I knew him, and this House and this province are indebted for the contribution he made.

I, too, want to extend a genuine expression of respect and sympathy on behalf of my party to his wife and family at this time.

Mr. Harris: It is a privilege for me, even though I never knew Charlie MacNaughton, to be able to rise on behalf of our party and extend the sympathies of our party to the family.

I listened with interest to the comments that were made by both my colleagues who spoke on behalf of the government and the New Democratic Party. I do not want to repeat all the things that were said but I do not think we mentioned that Charlie came to us from Saskatchewan. He received his education in Brandon, Manitoba. He later entered the seed business, which he operated in Brandon and Winnipeg until 1942 when, very fortunately, I believe, for us and for the people of Ontario, he moved to Ontario. He headed a very prominent seed house at Exeter before he decided to share his time and his talents with the people of Ontario.

It was mentioned that Mr. MacNaughton held nine ministries. Certainly up until that time, it was more than any other person in the history of the province. I suspect that record probably holds; I did not have time to check that out, but I do not know of anybody else off the top of my head, and I guess it would have been a member of our party, who would have come close to that record.

He was in cabinet from 1961 to 1973 and was certainly one of the most respected Treasurers this province has ever had. I have an interesting quote from January 13, 1973, that I would like to read to the members; I thought the current Treasurer (Mr. R. F. Nixon) would enjoy it. It says: “Mr. MacNaughton was not the sort of man comfortable with deficits. A solid citizen of Exeter, he was attracted to political life by the policies of the late Conservative leader, George Drew.”

The deficits, of course, attracted my attention, and I hold before me a budget for 1970. That is not very long ago, I say to the Treasurer and the Premier (Mr. Peterson). It is Charlie MacNaughton’s budget of 1970. I thought the House might be interested in two of the figures from that budget. They will astound members by their size, I am sure. The net general revenue for 1970 was $3,739,300,000; the net general expenditure was $3,728,018,000. A $10-million surplus, I guess, was budgeted in that year. Charlie MacNaughton must surely be astounded. In 1970, he was able to balance the budget.

We were spending at that time $3.7 billion, which, as was said by my leader, is the amount of money that appears to be spilled by this Treasurer from one year to the next. It is astounding.

On behalf of our caucus, we extend our appreciation to Mr. MacNaughton’s wife and his family for sharing him with us and for sharing him with the province of Ontario. We too extend our sympathies to his wife and family on his passing.

Mr. Speaker: When Hansard is printed, on your behalf I will make certain that the MacNaughton family receives a copy of your words of sympathy.

MEMBER’S COMMENTS

Mr. Pouliot: On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker: Under standing order 19(d)11, I wish to apologize to the member for Cochrane North, the Minister of Northern Development (Mr. Fontaine), for use of insulting language during question period yesterday. I can assure the minister that there was no malice intended. However, I fully recognize and realize that language of this type is conducive to disorder. I know the minister to be most competent, sincere and dedicated. I want to thank the minister for the help he has given me in the past, but much more important, for the help he has conveyed to northerners at every opportunity.

ORAL QUESTIONS

FEDERAL TAX REFORM PROPOSALS

Mr. B. Rae: I have a question for the Treasurer. He states on page 5 of his statement, “Earlier this month, I had an opportunity to share some of my thoughts and concerns with the federal and provincial ministers of finance.” He also indicates throughout the document that he has, in fact, shared a lot of information and given his points of view to the federal authorities. I wonder if the Treasurer can do us the favour of making public all the submissions that have been made by Ontario with respect to corporate and personal income taxes and with respect to tax reform.

Hon. R. F. Nixon: Yes, I am able to do that.

Mr. B. Rae: That is progress. The question I want to ask the Treasurer on that score is if he can tell us precisely just what is the thrust of his recommendations with respect to corporate taxation. He will know that one of the major features of the Blenkarn report, which was released just a couple of days ago, was the clear statement that the corporations must pay a larger share with respect to the balance between corporate and personal income tax.

The Treasurer’s comments would tend to indicate that he is concerned about the impact on Ontario’s competitive position and about what he calls the “economic growth potential.” I hope these comments would not be sending a message to the federal government that it should not be imposing a very fair, and indeed rigorous, tax on corporations that are making profits at the present time.

Hon. R. F. Nixon: I had hoped really to include a good deal more information in the statement, but having to fit it into the 20-minute rule of the House, I cut out some of the details that the honourable member is asking for. Since he has now asked for it specifically in question period, I will tell him that he will be aware that the federal white paper broadened the base of the corporation income tax substantially by removing so-called loopholes, so-called avenues for what used to be called by one of the federal parties, corporate welfare bums -- a phrase I do not often use myself.

At the same time, since the base was substantially broadened, the recommendation from Mr. Wilson is that the corporation tax rate be reduced. When the government of Ontario makes any adjustments to its corporation tax rate, we have a rule that almost invariably parallels those changes, but since most of the productive corporations -- let us rephrase this.

Many of the corporations that are most productive in Canada are found in Ontario. The impact of those base-broadening rules will certainly have a great impact here. One of the ones certainly that has had most of the discussion, and one that I have discussed with the other treasurers and the Minister of Finance, has been his new approach to capital cost allowance, which would have replaced a write-off over three years for manufacturing machinery and other aspects of investment with a declining write-off of 25 per cent that just keeps getting smaller and smaller until there is very little left.

It would have really meant a substantial impact, not in the total tax paid by corporations over a number of years, but in the rate at which those payments would have been made.

We have been very competitive with the Americans in our capital cost allowance and this particular change would be a negative one as far as we are concerned. I have given him specific proposals for another capital cost allowance program that we --

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mr. B. Rae: It is very difficult in the absence of a full statement by the Treasurer as to what Ontario’s position has been. We have the publication of the federal report and we have the publication of the Blenkarn report. Ontario’s submissions have all been made in private, but I wonder if the Treasurer can at least give us the assurance that nothing the Treasurer has recommended shows a decrease in the total amount of revenues being generated from the corporate sector under tax reform. Can he at least give us that assurance?

Hon. R. F. Nixon: The member has to remember that the revenues from corporation tax are based on the rate as well as the taxation base. Mr. Wilson’s white paper was fairly careful to make the changes neutral as far as Ontario is concerned. He did his best presumably for the other provinces, but in our instance, if no changes are made, I think our revenue goes down by something like $30 million. We are reviewing the tax --

Mr. B. Rae: That is not what I asked.

Hon. R. F. Nixon: Of course it is not, but I am going to answer the member in my own way, which is what the rules provide.

Mr. Breaugh: Sorry to intrude -- we didn’t mean to offend.

Hon. R. F. Nixon: No, I am not offended, not at all.

I want to make it clear that Mr. Wilson has met with the treasurers regularly, and I appreciate that, but the assistance I get in establishing policy comes from my colleagues, it comes from people that I ask, as far as their advice is concerned, who proffer their advice, and also from the standing committee of the Legislature. That committee has not had an opportunity to hear the views of its own committee members and other members of the House and anybody else. I am looking forward to getting a report from them.

I should respond some time, as early as possible, in 1988, but essentially by the time the spring budget is put before the honourable members, so we have some time to consider our response.

Mr. B. Rae: I suppose that is one way of answering. One way of answering is not to answer.

HOUSING ALLOCATIONS

Mr. B. Rae: I have a question of the Minister of Housing. The minister stated outside the House that the reason for the underspending of some $50 million was that the programs that were being offered by the government were not taken up by many of the groups that were expected by the government to take them up.

Can the minister confirm that when one looks at the nonprofit and co-op housing programs, applications for those programs, plans for those programs, detailed architectural drawings and proposals from various co-op groups and non-profit housing corporations across the province have consistently far exceeded the supply in the provincial program? Can she confirm that in 1986 they received 20,000 applications under the nonprofit program, 10,000 applications under Project 3000 and, for 1987, 24,000 applications under the nonprofit program?

In fact, what she allocated to each of those programs was about 25 to 30 per cent of what was being asked for, at the same time as she is going outside the House and giving very misleading information to the press with respect to the government’s programs and the takeup rate.

Hon. Ms. Hošek: This government has done more for housing than any other government has done before. The money that has not been spent in the past year is not lost. The commitment of $645 million that this government has made for spending on housing will be maintained.

Mr. B. Rae: The minister has just contradicted directly the answer that the Premier (Mr. Peterson) gave yesterday. He said the money could not be carried forward. The minister today is saying that the money is not lost. One of them is telling the truth. It would be interesting to find out which one it is.

The question I have of the minister is specifically with respect to the so-called convert-to-rent program. The minister has stated that this is one of the programs that is going to continue; this is one of the programs that is one of the pillars upon which the government is directing its approach. Can the minister explain why the convert-to-rent program was one of the worst villains in the underspending department last year, at the same time as there are thousands of applications in the nonprofit program, far more applications than there is funding?

Why not take the money out of the programs that have not worked and that were not working and put it in the programs where people are applying, and do it in a way that is going to make sure that housing is brought on stream as soon as possible?

Hon. Ms. Hošek: I am committed to spending the money that has been allocated on housing in the most efficient and effective way possible. It is for this reason that, when it was clear to us that the takeup in Renterprise was not as quick as we would have wanted, we decided we would reallocate that money to areas where we think the takeup would be quicker.

What I said outside the House yesterday, and I am very happy to reiterate today, is that we are always looking at all of our programs to see that they are as effective as they can possibly be in changing market conditions and that we are prepared to look at all of their effectiveness and to reallocate resources to make sure that the greatest impact and the quickest impact is felt for the people who really need the housing. They are our primary commitment. We will use our resources as effectively as possible, and we are always looking at all of our programs to see how to do that best.

Mr. Breaugh: While the minister has been very rigid with the nonprofit groups in their applications, she has been very flexible with the private sector groups in their applications.

Can the minister explain how she could say no to nonprofit groups which have their proposals in front of her and at the same time allow convert-to-rent proposals such as the one that was made to her from Ariann Developments, which operates a thing called Litwin Place at 235 Grandravine in North York?

The minister gave these people $70,000 under the convert-to-rent program. She financed that, and they promptly turned around and sold the equity shares in those apartments which she helped to finance. It would appear to be in contravention of provincial legislation. How can she be so inflexible to nonprofit groups and so flexible that she financed private sector developments which are breaking her own laws?

Hon. Ms. Hošek: The member opposite has made a very serious allegation. I would like to see confirmation of what he has said, and we will look into it; it is very serious.

We are very interested in supporting the nonprofit and co-operative sector and have added funds to that sector in the past year. I can only repeat what I have said before. All our programs are meant to be as effective as they possibly can to deliver housing to the people who need it. If we discover that our programs are not being taken up as quickly as we would like, we are prepared to look at them and to reallocate our resources to the areas that will be most effective and quickest.

ONTARIO ECONOMY

Mr. Brandt: My question, surprisingly, is to the Treasurer. I want to ask him about the statement he makes in his release of information today -- I believe it is on page 3 -- the comment that Ontario’s economy will grow next year, a rather optimistic statement in light of some of the more recent reports that are coming out that I would like to share with the Treasurer.

The London Free Press this morning indicates that a vice-president, an economist with the Bank of Montreal, says the economy will stall in 1988. The specific quote from the economist in that particular

article indicates that growth will come to “an abrupt halt” in Ontario.

I realize those two statements are a bit of a dichotomy in that the Treasurer is exhibiting a level of optimism while the economist is being somewhat more pessimistic. Was the Treasurer’s statement drafted, in the context of his anticipated growth for next year, before or after Black Monday and the crash of the stock market a couple of weeks ago?

Hon. R. F. Nixon: Specifically, I can tell the honourable member that the information in the statement is as up-to-date as yesterday, and my projections are based on the views and expressions of opinion and assistance of the Ministry of Economics. I am very confident those economists are effective. That does not mean their views are the exclusive ones used by myself and the other Treasury officials in this matter.

The honourable member points out a statement made by an economist for the Bank of Montreal. I think he is aware that other banks have made varying projections and other institutions in Canada and the United States have also already come on record as indicating what they hope the future to be.

I simply draw to the member’s attention that I hope to table in the next few weeks a more detailed projection of what we expect the economy to do and how it is to perform in the areas of jobs and investment and, of course, from our point of view, revenue, in the next 12 months. This will be tabled in the House and I hope the standing committee would use it as one of the vehicles upon which it would carry out its discussions and research, to offer advice to the House and the Treasurer as to how we might amend any views that are presently expressed to the House and how they might be reflected in the budget.

Mr. Brandt: Recognizing that we are entering at least some period of uncertainty, I think it is interesting to note that, as a result primarily of increases in sales tax revenue, the Treasurer did receive a windfall of some $350 million, of which, based on the past performance of this government, he has spent virtually every single, solitary dime of that additional money.

I would ask the Treasurer: In light of the fact that there are at least some voices out there that are saying, “Be cautious about the future” as a result of the possibility of an economic slowdown, why would the Treasurer not in fact take a look at that additional revenue of $350 million and apply at least a portion of that, as my colleague the critic for the Treasurer has indicated, to the deficit in order to provide him with some additional flexibility in the days and months ahead when he may well need it?

My question to the Treasurer is this: Why would he not use at least a portion of the $350 million?

Hon. Mr. Bradley: The Education critic wants you to spend it.

Mr. Brandt: It is the way he spends it, not just the amount he spends.

Hon. Mr. Bradley: Come on, make up your mind. You say, “Don’t spend.” He says, “Spend.”

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mr. Brandt: The fact of the matter is that he is spending it on any increased government civil --

Mr. Speaker: Order. The member is repeating his question.

Hon. R. F. Nixon: The honourable member says he does not approve of the way that money was spent. The extra was spent for community and social services at a rate of an additional $103 million and for health services at a rate of an additional $119 million; those are the two major ones. If the honourable member is indicating that he does not feel those worthy community services should be supported, then I disagree with him.

Mr. Brandt: The Treasurer will always be able to cite needs, certainly, and I do not disagree with many of the needs he has pointed out. Of course, he has inadvertently forgotten to mention that he has also, in the course of the last two years, hired an additional 5,000 civil servants, which has cost this province an additional $250 million a year, or no less than $1 billion over a four-year period.

My question to the Treasurer is simply this: The deficit which he projected in his budget statement today of some $970 million would of course have to take into effect some $350 million of additional in-year cuts that he had proposed for the various ministries. Since we are about halfway through the year in terms of his budgeting process, could the Treasurer share with us now how much of that $350 million he has been able to realize in terms of cuts, and is he in fact on target with those additional cuts that will be required to bring the total deficit below the magic $1-billion mark?

Hon. R. F. Nixon: If I may comment on the editorial lead-in to the question, the interim leader --

Mr. Brandt: Sure you can. Answer it in your own way.

Hon. R. F. Nixon: Well, he asked his question in his own way, so --

Interjections.

Hon. R. F. Nixon: The honourable member would be relieved to know that the salary bill for the civil servants is now substantially decreased as a percentage of the budget of the province, compared to what it was. He would also be glad to know that of the new employees who are hired in areas of substantial significance and importance in delivering provincial programs, most of them are working not in Toronto but out in the province, including the move to northern Ontario, where so many of our very important operations are going to be concentrated now and in the future.

In connection to the honourable member’s question which dealt with in-year cuts, I can report to the honourable member that we are on target, the program is moving forward and the report of where those cuts come is premature at this time, although it is well in hand. When the fiscal year is completed, I will be able to detail to the honourable member where this comes from. Some of it will come from capital, some will come from our ordinary expenses, and I am sure the honourable member would be delighted to support the concept, since it really came into this Legislature from the mind and at the hand of Frank Miller of blessed memory.

DEFICIT REDUCTION

Mr. Harris: I also have a question for the Treasurer, who I would hope -- maybe in his own way of answering -- will start to relate to the facts as well as his own way. It has to do with the second-quarter report that was released yesterday, a report which heightened our concerns about his government’s commitment to deficit reduction and any semblance of expenditure control. Could the Treasurer tell us what portion or percentage of the increased revenues his government has collected since coming to office has been applied to reducing the deficit?

Hon. R. F. Nixon: The cash requirement reduction plan that has been a part of our program of fiscal responsibility is well known to the members of the House, or certainly to the previous members of the House. I will be glad to try to describe it in detail to the present members. When we took office -- we really do not want to talk about the days prior to office -- the spending program on the day we took office in fact had a deficit projection of about $2.6 billion. We have progressively reduced that over the three budgets I have been involved with. Now it is below one billion.

I wish it had been substantially lower, but it is below $1 billion so we have been able to apply the increased revenues in a way that strengthened our programs and made up for other kinds of deficits in this province having to do with inadequate funding on education, roads, environmental programs and a wide variety of important aspects.

Mr. Brandt: Members’ salaries.

Hon. R. F. Nixon: Members’ salaries -- the honourable member interjects -- have gone up by a very minor 3.9 per cent per year.

Mr. Harris: All the political hacks’ have gone up. They are the ones that have doubled, not the members’. We agree with that.

The question was what percentage and the answer, if the Treasurer would use the facts, is really quite simple; it is eight per cent. Eight per cent of the total revenue increases he has received since he has been in office is what he has applied to reducing the deficit. He has managed, successfully I might add, to spend the remaining 92 per cent of the increases he has received.

In the current fiscal year, as of this statement that we saw yesterday, he has applied less than two per cent of the total in-year revenue increases. This is the windfall over and above his budget. Two per cent of that he has applied to deficit reduction. In his three budgets, he has been able to reduce the deficit by less than one half of the more than $2 billion in windfall; not the $10 billion or so he has, just the $2 billion in windfall. Less than one half of that has gone towards the deficit.

Mr. Speaker: The supplementary question is?

Mr. Harris: I wonder if the Treasurer is able to explain to the long-suffering taxpayer why, in the midst of this sustained period of economic growth, he has made such a minimal commitment to reducing the deficit, and when, if ever, does this Treasurer see the day when this province might have a balanced budget?

Hon. R. F. Nixon: I would like to point out to the honourable member that our current budget is presently balanced or very close to it. From a business point of view, to actually balance our revenues with our day-to-day expenditures for the operation of the government is an aim that I set for myself and that has been accomplished within a very narrow range. I think we should remember that this year we are spending $2.6 billion in capital. In order to accomplish that, we are borrowing less than $1 billion. I do not know many well-ordered businesses that are able to conduct their affairs in such an effective and fiscally responsible way.

Mr. Harris: If we take into account the differences in the way governments and businesses operate, every well-run business I know does it better than the Treasurer is doing it. I think the Treasurer knows the real reason he has not eliminated the deficit is that his cabinet colleagues have turned into spending junkies and it is the taxpayer who is paying for their $96 million-a-day habit. The only time we hear him talk about fiscal responsibility is when he is hedging his commitments or signing accords.

The Treasurer and his colleagues have overspent his budget plan every year they have been in office. The Treasurer’s three budgets have increased spending by an average annual rate of 10 per cent. He knows that his expenditures in relation to the size of the economy are at near-recessionary levels. Does the Treasurer not agree that the only hope he has of increasing the province’s flexibility, let alone of delivering on these campaign promises, is to get his colleagues’ and the Premier’s (Mr. Peterson) spending under control? It has not worked for three years. Could he tell us what new controls he has that by some miracle are going to work now?

Hon. R. F. Nixon: We think that our spending program is under control. We are not spending the money on programs that are not supported on all sides of this House. We are concerned about delivering medical services in a more effective way and keeping up to date. We are concerned about the quality of education and a variety of welfare programs. We want to have programs that are going to stimulate the development of the north so that some of the northern members can spend more time down here.

I do not apologize for that and I am not going to be talking about the inadequacies of the previous administration. It is not necessary. Everybody knows about them. I do not have to bring it to their attention.

NIAGARA REGIONAL POLICE

Mr. Swart: My question is to the Solicitor General. She will know that just this morning the chairman of the Niagara Regional Police Commission announced that the commission by a unanimous vote had called on the Solicitor General to hold a public inquiry into the allegations of impropriety against the Niagara Regional Police force.

Given that this call came from the reform commission initiated by her government specifically to straighten out the scandal that has existed for a long time in the Niagara Regional Police force, and given that the call to her was made after an investigation in depth by the commission on the 741-page report from its own internal investigation, why has the Solicitor General rejected that reasonable and responsible request and turned the whole issue back to the police chief and to the commission?

Hon. Mrs. Smith: As the member for Welland-Thorold knows, we do indeed have a capable chairman of the board of the police commission in that area. On taking office, she herself was concerned about the scandals reputed to be in that force, particularly around the police chief, and caused charges to be laid against the police chief under the Police Act. These were in the process of being investigated, I believe, by the Hamilton-Wentworth Regional Police force when the police chief himself resigned, stepping out of office. This caused the charges to die, as they were charges laid under the Police Act and he was no longer a policeman.

After discussion in the Solicitor General’s office, this police commission and its chairman decided to pursue their own investigation internally into this matter. They have now completed the investigation and have just as of now submitted it for our review. We will be glad to review it and see what problems, if any, exist in this report and take whatever necessary action is called for.

Mr. Swart: I am surprised that the minister does not have more of a handle on her ministry. Does she not know that she signed a letter rejecting it and then referring it back to the police commission? I would have thought she would have jumped at the opportunity to clean and clear the situation that we have down there.

The minister must know that in recent years her ministry did two comprehensive investigations and refused to release the reports. Even the brief summaries whitewashed the police force there. Yet the cache of 500 illegal weapons was found by the new chief and the commission immediately after they started their own investigation. Does the minister not think this shows gross incompetence or negligence or even coverup by her investigators? Is that not the real reason she does not want a public inquiry? The trail of guilt might lead right up to her ministry.

Mr. Speaker: Order. The question has been asked.

Hon. Mrs. Smith: Indeed, I did receive a letter from the chairman, roughly two weeks ago, in which she said she was thinking of demanding a public inquiry and asking for my response.

Interjection.

Hon. Mrs. Smith: If the member would listen carefully, I responded to her that the letter she had written to me seemed to indicate that the commission was doing the investigation and that this was an inappropriate way for her to go about it. Along with the letter I received last night, saying that she would be demanding a public inquiry, was an attached letter in which she corrected those errors in her original letter. So, indeed, she herself has now submitted a second, more accurate request for a public inquiry, and we will take a look at it.

But I would point out to the member that, generally speaking, when the police investigate something, they themselves look to what action should be taken and recommend on that. We will look for the recommendations of the chief of police in this matter.

RENTAL ACCOMMODATION

Mr. Cousens: I have a question for the Minister of Housing. As part of her campaign commitment to build 102,000 units of housing by 1989, the minister stated in this House on November 5 that 12,000 housing units will be developed over the next five years on government-owned land. Will the minister inform this House what consultation she has had with local municipalities and in what municipalities she intends to erect these units of housing?

Hon. Ms. Hošek: I am glad to see the member for Markham here today. Yesterday, when we were supposed to be having a discussion that he himself called for on a question he had asked previously, he did not seem to have the time to be here to discuss this question. I hope the next time he is very interested in a question of housing and the provision of affordable housing, he will be here to listen to the answer.

Mr. Cousens: Will the Minister of Housing, in view of the almost unanimous decision by Scarborough council, tell us whether the Rouge Valley lands will be used for housing? The minister did not answer the other question. Can she answer this one?

Hon. Ms. Hošek: As a result of the decision of Scarborough council concerning those lands, this whole matter is now in the hands of the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Eakins), who will take a look at the impact of that decision on all of the provincial interests in the area, which include the interests of the Ministry of Housing, the Ministry of Transportation, the Ministry of Agriculture and Food and several others. When that process is complete, the cabinet will decide what the appropriate response will be.

TRANSFER PAYMENTS

Mr. R. F. Johnston: My question is for the Treasurer. I would like to get more information about the transfer payments to colleges and universities and to the public education system, if I might.

It looks, in general, as if the Treasurer has reduced the amount to the public education system from about a 7.5 per cent transfer last year to 6.8 per cent this year. The minister has included the costs of the extension to the separate school system as a result of Bill 30 within that total amount of 6.8 per cent; last year, 1.5 per cent of that total amount went to separate school funding.

Can the minister tell us how much of it is going in this year to separate school funding, how much is going in for the other things he promised during the election campaign and how much is really left for base assistance to the public education system? Is it in fact above the cost-of-living rise or is it less than that?

Hon. R. F. Nixon: I think the honourable member is aware that these operating transfers, of course, do not include any capital transfers, which will be announced separately. The member is aware that those are very large as well and in many instances have to do with the Catholic schools and the public schools which have to have expanding facilities in many communities, and that the changes for public education, as he has pointed out, are: for colleges from 4.3 per cent to six per cent, for universities from 7.3 per cent to 6.7 per cent and for schools from six per cent to 6.8 per cent.

I would be the last to say that these transfers are sufficient in the light of the needs that any one of us as members of the Legislature can identify in our own community, and I cannot divide these, as the honourable member has asked, into the components that he has suggested. I will tell him, however, that as part of the statement I indicated that the members of cabinet directly associated will be making statements within the next two weeks -- I think one of them, at least, is due tomorrow -- indicating clearly what the application of the funds is.

Mr. R. F. Johnston: It is disconcerting to know that the minister cannot separate out these figures. I cannot understand for the life of me why he cannot today, and I am very disappointed to hear that.

Dealing specifically with problems of access and overcrowding at the university level, since this is a drop from 7.3 per cent last year and we already know that about 15 per cent of the students who applied for university entrance and were eligible students were turned down or did not receive any place in a university this year, next year, with the Ontario Schools, Intermediate and Senior Divisions curriculum guidelines coming in, there is going to be a huge jump of perhaps as high as 15 per cent in applications.

WASTE DISPOSAL

Mr. McLean: I have a question for the Minister of the Environment. The average home owner in the towns of Penetanguishene and Midland will be paying an increase of about $100 extra in garbage disposal next year. In the village of Port McNicoll it will rise from $37,000 to $91,000 in 1987, for an average increase of over $100 per household.

When will the minister show some leadership and solve this garbage crisis that is facing communities in Ontario?

Hon. Mr. Bradley: The garbage crisis to which the member makes reference, of course, is one which -- and I know we do not like to do this; to go into history on this -- but one which was left with me. That was the undertaking our government made to chase the Pauzé landfill site because of problems that were identified with the Pauzé landfill site and the plume, which was moving in the direction of Georgian Bay, and it has been documented for some time.

I can recall when we were in opposition being vociferous in the criticism of the operation of that particular site. It was not a viable option -- and I know there were people in the area, perhaps even the member himself -- but one of the options that was presented to me was to keep that landfill open, in violation of a pledge we had made and in violation of some information that had been provided to us that it would not be a good environmental option.

As a result, we did show leadership in assisting a number of municipalities in finding a temporary place where they could place their waste material until such time as they are through their environmental assessment, until such time as they have selected a site or a facility to deal with it.

My ministry has provided some funding, for instance for the transfer station, and has attempted to be of assistance in many ways to those municipalities in meeting their obligations. But there is no question, I would say to the member, that the cost --

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mr. McLean: Due to the fact of the delay that will take place until the new site is probably found, and the increased costs to those local municipalities, would the minister indicate to the Legislature and those people that he would be prepared to look into the possibility of picking up part of the cost?

Hon. Mr. Bradley: I appreciate the member’s concern; I think it is very legitimate. We are not in a position, however, as he knows, to begin to subsidize the transportation of wastes around Ontario, for instance. If we were to do so, it would discourage municipalities from finding solutions which are somewhat close to home.

We do have a number of programs that the member may or may not be aware of that may be of some assistance to those municipalities. There are some I announced in June 1987 which have some generous funding in them which may help a number of those municipalities meet their obligations. I would be happy to have my ministry officials review those programs with the municipalities to see if there is anything they could take advantage of so that they would not have as much of the burden borne at the local level.

Mr. Morin: I would like to direct a question to the minister responsible for francophone affairs.

Nous célébrons aujourd’hui le premier anniversaire de l’application de la Loi 8. Est-ce que le ministre pourrait nous donner un compte rendu de l’évolution de cette loi?

Alors, nous avons deux ans pour continuer à travailler pour l’implantation de cette loi et, avec les efforts des différentes communautés et des organismes francophones en Ontario, je suis sûr que la Loi 8 va connaître le grand succès qu’on lui souhaite.

ONTARIO FISHERIES ADVISORY COUNCIL

Mr. Hampton: My question is for the Minister of Natural Resources. The minister will recall that in late July of this year he announced that the newly created Ontario Fisheries Advisory Council would meet in early August and that its membership would be expanded to include a representative from northwestern Ontario communities west of Thunder Bay.

However following the election, on September 28 -- 18 days after the provincial general election -- in a letter to Rick Morgan, president of the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters, the minister indicated that an additional person from west of Thunder Bay would not be added to the fisheries advisory council.

The people of the province who live in the large region west of Thunder Bay were clearly told one story immediately before the election and another very different story after the election.

Which is it? Which is the position of the minister? Does he stand by the statement that he made before the election? If he does stand by that, when will we see the appointment of a 12th member from one of the communities west of Thunder Bay?

Hon. Mr. Kerrio: This of course is following the initiation of a fishing licence in Ontario to return the resource to what it was not that many years ago. We are definitely going to provide opportunities for all the people who visit northern Ontario, as well as the residents, to renew the kinds of opportunities that existed before.

There were those who questioned this initiative. I think I have convinced them that I propose to do this in a very meaningful way and that I would set up a group of people across the province who would tell this government and share the responsibility of how the moneys are going to be spent.

I feel very proud now that this has happened. I was at my first meeting with this group in Thunder Bay last week with Dr. E. J. Crossman, a well-respected biologist, as chairman. He has had no one quarrel with his chairmanship. He was asked the first question by the minister as to whether this new board thought it would be appropriate that it should have more members and that one of them should come from the area the member has described.

I am pleased to share with the member the fact that the minister always had the feeling that someone should be put on that board, and it is going to happen.

Mr. Hampton: So that the minister understands the position exactly, I want to read to him from the Dryden Observer. This is the Wednesday, July 29, edition of the Dryden Observer, and he said in it that the 12th member of the fishing advisory council would be appointed in time to take

part in the early August meeting of the fishing advisory council. Following that, in the September 9 edition of the Dryden Observer --

Mr. Speaker: And the question is?

Mr. Hampton: -- the Premier (Mr. Peterson) also stated the appointment would be made very soon. So my question is, the minister said it would happen in early August. The Premier repeated his words. The question is when. He said it was going to happen by early August. When is he going to appoint the 12th person from communities west of Thunder Bay, a promise he made back in July, which the Premier repeated early in September?

Mr. Speaker: The question has been asked.

Hon. Mr. Kerrio: This is not a short-term involvement. This group is going to be in place as long as it takes me to rebuild the fishery, and it is going to take quite a while, because we are going to have to put in new hatcheries. We are going to have to clean up the habitat. We are working, of course, with the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Bradley), because as often as he cleans up a stream in this province, I am going to stock it with fish.

So I want the member to understand that a few months standing in the way of a committee, that is going to be producing such good work in this province to renew the resource to what it was not that long ago, is something that I do not think anyone would quarrel with for the time frame we have described. I have already said that we are going to add representation from that area to that group, when I decide.

OSHAWA AUTO AUCTION LTD.

Mr. Wiseman: I have a question of the Minister of Financial Institutions. I wonder whether the Treasurer --

Mr. Breaugh: Hey, no smiling before he asks the question.

Mr. Wiseman: Yes, he is getting a lot of questions today.

I wonder whether the minister is familiar with the problem of the Oshawa Auto Auction, Lloyd’s bank and the 200 car dealers who sold their cars on October 21 and October 28 with the understanding that the money from the cars sold would go into a trust fund and the dealers would be paid promptly. The car dealers who sold on the 21st sent their cheques in for payment, and payment was withheld until October 29, and then they came back marked “Not sufficient funds.”

Mr. Speaker: The question is?

Mr. Wiseman: Everyone knows the car auctions are in trust --

Mr. Speaker: Order. Do you have a question?

Mr. Wiseman: Would the minister and his colleague the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations (Mr. Wrye) look into the matter as to why the bank took that money, held it and put it against other debts the person owning the Oshawa Auto Auction had incurred?

Hon. R. F. Nixon: I have carefully perused my briefing book, and there is not a thing in there about the matter. I will certainly undertake to get the information for the honourable member and see that it is placed at his disposal without delay.

Mr. Wiseman: I appreciate that, but can the Treasurer tell us whether he and his colleague the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations have replied to the executive director of the used car association, who has been trying to get a meeting between himself and the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations all this week? It is important. One person from my riding is a small dealer who stands to lose $32,000, but there are an awful lot of them out there. These are all small dealers, and I would appreciate it if the Treasurer could give me the commitment --

Mr. Speaker: The question has been asked.

Hon. R. F. Nixon: Both my colleague the honourable minister and myself are usually readily accessible, and I will certainly see that the response goes to the member’s constituent and I will keep the member informed.

ARGOSY FINANCIAL GROUP OF CANADA LTD.

Mr. Mackenzie: I have a question for the Minister of Financial Institutions. The committee dealing with the Ombudsman’s report rejected the Ombudsman’s recommendation to compensate the Argosy victims. The committee, however, did make a recommendation that there should be an ex gratia payment to the Argosy victims, and I am wondering if the minister can tell us if the government has made any decision on this matter.

Hon. R. F. Nixon: We are not proceeding with an ex gratia payment.

Mr. Mackenzie: During the election, the Premier (Mr. Peterson) stated on several occasions that the issue would be brought before the cabinet. The Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology (Mr. Kwinter) is said to have indicated his sympathy for this particular position. Has it been discussed in cabinet or has this minister just totally rejected it now and was that just an election comment?

Hon. R. F. Nixon: I can assure the member that it has been discussed along the lines he has indicated in his question and the decision is as I have already indicated.

FACILITY FOR YOUNG OFFENDERS

Mr. Runciman: My question is for the Minister of Correctional Services. In response to a question yesterday, he mentioned his ministry was in the process of building young offenders facilities. Based on that comment, I wonder if he can inform us of the status of the secure young offenders facility that was announced for Brockville over two years ago?

Hon. Mr. Ramsay: In answer to the honourable member, I can get back to him on that as I do not have the information right now.

Mr. Runciman: I have to take issue with the minister’s lack of knowledge in this particular subject area. I wrote him shortly after he was appointed to the executive council and he is still not familiar with the issue. His predecessor, in my view, delayed it purely on political grounds simply because that seat was not held by a member of the governing party. I am asking the minister --

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mr. Runciman: During the election campaign, the member for Kingston and The Islands (Mr. Keyes), the former Minister of Correctional Services, indicated that Brockville was the ideal site. He confirmed that is the site the facility should go in. I just wonder if the minister will today commit himself to following through on that commitment, that promise, that announcement made over two years ago.

Hon. Mr. Ramsay: In answer to the honourable member, I will not commit myself to that today because I want to review all the new construction and the rehabilitation of existing facilities in regard to young offenders.

GREAT LAKES WATER QUALITY

Mr. Miller: I have a question for the Minister of the Environment. The International Joint Commission on the Great Lakes is meeting in Toledo, Ohio, and today they are about to sign the Great Lakes water quality agreement, an update of the 1978 agreement. It calls for a scheduled cleanup of the lakes and strengthening the 1978 agreement. Is the minister aware of this and is he satisfied that the Ontario Great Lakes portion is going to be protected?

Hon. Mr. Bradley: This is a very important agreement. The member represents a constituency that is on Lake Erie so he would have a special interest in this. I want to say that this particular agreement is the culmination of some considerable negotiation. There was some fear that to tamper with the 1978 agreement, which in principle is a good agreement, might weaken it in view of the lack of resolve to deal with environmental issues in some part, but I can assure the member that the input of Ontario, and I must say the input of environmental groups, Great Lakes United and others, has been very beneficial in coming up with an agreement which I think is superior to the one we had last time.

Interestingly enough, it will be the federal Minister of the Environment who will be signing that and it will be the provincial Minister of the Environment who has to deliver the goods.

PROPERTY TAXES

Mr. Reville: I have a question for the Minister of Revenue. Today’s newspapers deliver us the latest entry in the Metro Toronto property tax lottery. It is a kind of mug’s game in which local councillors count up winners and then they count up losers. I wonder if the House should expect this minister to behave as the previous minister did. He used to smile disarmingly at the House and suggest that it really had nothing to do with him at all, but that he had to respond to requests.

Hon. Mr. Grandmaître: I think the former minister did a marvellous job. If I can follow in his footsteps, I will be very pleased. I want to assure the member that this government is interested in reassessment, as we have been for the last two and a half years. If Metro can make up its mind about what it is looking for, my ministry will gladly assist.

Mr. Reville: I think it is beneath this government to start blaming the victim for things. The totally marvellous job the previous minister did was to create a situation in which Metro council is contemplating a scheme by which thousands of people will lose their homes, thousands of people will lose their apartments and thousands of people will lose their businesses.

Will the minister finally undertake real property tax reform -- I will give him some hints -- a reform that would be based on the taxpayer’s ability to pay, a reform that would be based on taking education off the property tax and a reform that would be based on reversing the trend of senior governments of dumping more and more fiscal responsibilities on the property tax so that assessment-poor municipalities struggle and struggle to deliver services to their ratepayers?

Hon. Mr. Grandmaître: I think the present legislation is a very good piece of legislation. We will continue to use it for the simple reason that 76 per cent of all municipalities in this province have used the present legislation. I think we can do the very same thing. We can offer these services to individual municipalities in Metro or to Metro itself. Again, we do not know if the resolution or the assessment program presented yesterday by the committee will be accepted by Metro, and until it is accepted by Metro I cannot comment on it.

AIR QUALITY

Mrs. Marland: My question is of the Minister of the Environment. I know that for some time now the minister has been promising air pollution guidelines. I am also aware of the fact the minister is fully knowledgeable that at this time there is an environmental assessment hearing taking place into a proposed energy-from-waste plant to burn domestic and industrial garbage, a project by Petro-Sun in the southeast part of Brampton.

I would like to ask the minister, in view of the fact that this environmental assessment hearing is now taking place and in view of the absence of any air pollution guidelines, how can the minister measure the decision of the panel against any benchmark that does not exist for air emissions from such a plant?

Hon. Mr. Bradley: I find it interesting because in some instances I hear from her party that it is very pro incineration, that this is the solution and why are we allowing any more landfills in Ontario. The next question I get seems to talk about being opposed to incineration and so on. It really points to --

Mr. Sterling: Tell us your views. It’s you guys. You are the government. You are the minister. Don’t throw that out; answer it.

Hon. Mr. Bradley: I am being interrupted by the member for Carleton. I will try again. I will try to answer.

Mr. Speaker: Something very new around here. Would the minister continue.

Hon. Mr. Bradley: It was a legitimate question and the member for Carleton was interrupting me. The fact is that the panel will take into consideration all evidence that is presented. In co-operation with the Ministry of the Environment of Ontario, there have been some federal pieces of work done on incineration. There has been some testing done. There has been a lot of work on evidence provided from around the world on the issue of incineration, and I know the panel will take that fully into consideration before rendering a decision one way or another.

Ultimately, of course, the Ministry of the Environment takes into consideration the viewpoint which the board expresses, and it is very rarely that we will see a government overturn the Environmental Assessment Board when it brings forward its decision to cabinet, because it is usually based on an introduction of evidence from a variety of groups. Members will know, of course, that this government provided intervener funding so that the opponents could make their cases in the most appropriate fashion.

NOTICE OF DISSATISFACTION

Mr. Cousens: Mr. Speaker, under

section 30 of the standing orders, I give formal written notice to yourself and the Clerk of dissatisfaction with the answer given by the Minister of Housing (Ms. Hošek) and I look forward to the opportunity of seeing her.

Interjections.

Mr. Cousens: On a point of personal privilege, Mr. Speaker: When I had scheduled the earlier dissatisfaction notice, I was able to come; but then when another function arose, out of the gentlemanly heart that I have, I gave her notice and said, “Look, there will be another opportunity.” It has come very quickly.

PETITION

COCHRANE TEMISKAMING RESOURCE CENTRE

Mr. Kozyra: On behalf of my colleague the member for Cochrane North (Mr. Fontaine), I would like to submit to the Legislature a petition signed by 143 people of or near the riding of Cochrane North. This petition states:

“We, the undersigned, firmly believe that the residents of the Cochrane Temiskaming Resource Centre, who are developmentally handicapped children and adults, should remain in that facility to meet all their needs.”

Mr. Speaker: Petitions? Committee reports? Motions? Introduction of bills?

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

CANADA CHRISTIAN COLLEGE AND SCHOOL OF GRADUATE THEOLOGICAL STUDIES ACT

Mr. Allen: Mr. Speaker, just so you would not have a complete draw on all that list of requests, I am obliging you with the introduction of a bill.

Mr. Allen moved first reading of Bill Pr1,

An Act respecting Canada Christian College and School of Graduate Theological Studies.

Motion agreed to.

TOURISM ADVISORY BOARD ACT

Mr. McLean moved first reading of Bill 24, entitled Tourism Advisory Board Act, 1987.

Motion agreed to.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (CONTINUED)

Resuming the adjourned debate on the amendment to the motion for an address in reply to the speech of His Honour the Lieutenant Governor at the opening of the session.

Mr. Speaker: The member for Simcoe East, I believe, adjourned the debate last evening.

Mr. McLean: That is correct, Mr. Speaker, I did.

I am pleased today to rise and to take

part in this debate on the speech from the throne. It was interesting yesterday afternoon when the member for Muskoka-Georgian Bay (Mr. Black) made his remarks. Some comments were made with regard to the educational aspects of the speech from the throne, with regard to the additional portables and the additional costs that were going to be injected into the educational field. I do not think there are many people in this province who want to see more portables in schoolyards. I think they want to see bricks and mortar and better educational facilities for their children.

It indicated that what the speech from the throne really does is to send out signals of what the government intends to do in a program it wants to establish and follow. I believe that is all it does: send out signals. There were many signals sent out in the previous throne speech which were never followed through on or even brought into this Legislature for debate. Unfortunately, the government’s throne speech appears to be a carbon copy of its previous two speeches. This is not an agenda for action. This does not outline policies that are aimed at assisting the people of this province.

What did we get? Again, it appears to be a more-work project for Liberal back-benchers who will generate more committees, more reports, reviews and new studies. This is clearly not action on the part of the government. Rather, it shows that a sense of complacency and stagnation has already set in with a government that won a massive majority in the Legislature. That majority was won only two months ago and the people of this province have now seen how quickly arrogance and complacency have come to the forefront of this government.

The throne speech does not outline a clear and coherent strategy or lay the necessary foundation for a healthy future, the social or economic development of my riding of Simcoe East or the rest of the province. What this government has given the people of Ontario is only episode 3 in a series of throne speeches similar to the mini-series that were once popular on television.

The popularity of network television mini-series has plummeted over the years and by presenting this throne speech, the Liberal government is facing the same fate from an audience that is or soon will be fed up with a government that hands down a hodgepodge of unrelated programs, a rerun of past announcements and a mountain of committees, studies and reviews.

There is nothing in this document that indicates where the government is taking Ontario over the next four years. Hardly any legislation has been introduced in the Legislature for this session. The conflict-of-interest bill has been introduced: that is one key. I do not know of too many others that have been introduced other than the auto insurance bill, and those in a whole legislative program are coming on stream very slowly. To me, this throne speech indicates that the ship of government is rudderless and the people of Ontario who are on that ship will be cast adrift in a sea of studies.

As my party’s critic for Tourism and Recreation, I am deeply concerned that this government appears to be satisfied with the gains Ontario’s tourist industry has made over the past years. There is no mention of tourism or recreation in the throne speech. That is interesting, when we look at the substantial increase we had last year: There is no mention of tourism, of how they are going to further expand the tourism program.

Can we expect to see the gains of 30 per cent we saw last year? Tourism contributes a lot of money and employment in my riding of Simcoe East. It provides an important economic counterbalance when things are not going so well for local business and industry. Judging by this throne speech, we can only assume this government is turning its back on the tourism industry in Ontario which was once “yours to discover.” It is now being wiped off the tourist map. Rather than severing ties with our tourist industry, this government should be announcing new initiatives, new aims to keep the industry healthy and vibrant. There is nothing of tourism in the throne speech, and that is a crying shame.

As my party’s deputy critic for Agriculture and Food, I was disturbed by what this government has offered to the farmers of Ontario. What they got from this throne speech is a commitment to develop innovative approaches assisting Ontario farmers. That sounds great, but it means absolutely nothing. The programs announced by this government during the recent provincial election campaign were only a rehash of programs already announced in the last budget. The farmers of Ontario have a long, proud history and, it appears that history will soon come to an end unless this government does more than dangle promises of studies, reviews and consultations rather than acting now.

The Evans commission, which was this government’s long-standing excuse for inaction in the health care field, has reported and recommended that an emphasis be placed on the prevention of illness and programs that operate outside of the hospital environment. What has this government done with the Evans commission report? Was there any mention of new programs in the throne speech? No. There was only a passing mention of a proposed Premier’s council on health strategy which may or may not encourage the development of programs.

There was also no mention of programs aimed at helping to enlarge existing hospitals or to build new ones in Ontario. The Orillia Soldiers’ Memorial Hospital in my riding of Simcoe East is bursting at the seams. Prior to the recent election campaign, the government allocated $30 million to enlarge the hospital, but that financial infusion came after the health ministry was informed that the existing site is too small for any form of expansion. This is one election promise goody that just will not wash.

I know that there are many other communities throughout Ontario that require new or expanded hospitals. I also know that there are only so many dollars to go around. The financial pot is not bottomless and that is why I called on the government earlier this year to set up a hospital lottery with proceeds to be used for hospital construction in this province. A great idea, and there was no mention of that in the throne speech. Our health care delivery system is in a state of deterioration and that process is speeding up rapidly.

I would like to say a few things about the environment because this government seems unwilling to do so. The throne speech fails to mention any new programs aimed at reducing acid rain or the emissions from factories and automobiles that cause acid rain. If there were newspaper, radio or television reports that indicate the problem of acid rain has been resolved, I failed to read, hear or see these headlines or stories that we have conquered acid rain and it is no longer a problem. It appears from this throne speech, in the lack of reference to acid rain, that acid rain is no longer with us. But I know better.

This government has shown an acute lack of leadership in a related environmental field. I am referring to the garbage crisis that is confronting the people of Simcoe East and throughout the rest of Ontario. We can no longer afford to use valuable land in this province as dumping grounds for garbage. There will always be garbage, but there will not always be enough land. Garbage is currently being transferred from six northern municipalities to a landfill site north of Toronto. This is an expensive process and places an unacceptable financial burden on the taxpayers of Penetanguishene, Midland, Port McNicoll, Victoria Harbour, Tay township and the township of Tiny.

The average home owner will be paying approximately $100 more next year for the disposal of wastes. The average home owner can expect to see his taxes increased by over $100 just to cover the cost of transportation to the Keele disposal site.

This government seems to think the garbage crisis can be resolved by shipping trash around this province or by creating massive dumping grounds. This government seems to think the garbage crisis is a disposable problem that can be tossed away and forgotten about. There are no new policies or programs in this throne speech aimed at solving this extremely serious garbage problem that is confronting the municipalities of Ontario. This government has failed to show leadership.

It was only during the campaign that my Liberal opponent came to Toronto with some of his colleagues to make a sweetheart deal to have the garbage shipped to the city of Orillia. Can one imagine, with a disposal site on the shores of Lake Simcoe with environmental approval for approximately 15 years, these six municipalities with the leadership of the Liberal candidate wanting to bring all that garbage to the city of Orillia. The people of my riding made a wise choice on September 10, a very wise choice because if it were not for the choice they made they would be accepting garbage in the city of Orillia, something that is very unacceptable to me.

In the area of financial management, the throne speech had one brief mention about fiscal responsibility and then went on to completely ignore financial management. This government has not indicated that it is committed to reversing the erosion of expenditure constraints that has been experienced over the past two years. The government has failed to address the issue of tax reform at the provincial or federal levels or in relation to what may be required to maintain Ontario’s competitive position in a free trade environment, if and when a free trade agreement is completed with the United States.

Where is this government’s commitment to debt and deficit reduction? That commitment was also strangely absent from the throne speech. Major transfer payment recipients such as our health care and education systems found nothing in the throne speech to address their concerns that this government will use the recent stock market decline as an excuse to freeze their transfer payments.

During the recent provincial election campaign this government tossed out promises of major financial infusions into our health and education systems and then did a complete turnaround when the stock market crashed by warning officials in our education and health systems that their transfer payments could very well be frozen at last year’s levels or even reduced. How can any advance planning take place for our education or health care systems if officials in these fields get little or no direction from the government?

The necessary advance planning will have to be put on hold. It was interesting today when the Treasurer (Mr. R. F. Nixon) made his speech in the Legislature with regard to the financial situation and how he was going to proceed with the transfer payments. The question was asked as to what would happen if there were tough times in 1988. The Treasurer had indicated that due to the problems of October 19 there could be a freeze. There is no indication in his statement today that this will not happen. He still was very vague and left it open, “These are my proposals, but times could change.”

Most of the education initiatives mentioned in this throne speech were first announced in last spring’s throne speech and enlarged upon during the summer provincial election campaign. This government appears intent on reducing the school dropout rate by one third over a five-year period. Now the intent appears to be a reduc