1986 Legislative Session: 4th Session, 33rd Parliament

HANSARD

The following electronic version is for informational purposes only.

The printed version remains the official version.

Official Report of

DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(Hansard)

TUESDAY, JUNE 3, 1986

Morning Sitting

[ Page

8489 ]

CONTENTS

Committee of Supply: Ministry of Provincial Secretary and Government Services estimates. (Hon. Mrs. McCarthy)

On vote 65: minister's office — 8489

Mr. Hanson

Mr. Cocke

Mrs. Dailly

Mr. Michael

Mr. MacWilliam

TUESDAY, JUNE 3, 1986

The House met at 10:04 a.m.

Prayers.

Orders of the Day

The House in Committee of Supply; Mr. Strachan in the chair.

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF PROVINCIAL

SECRETARY AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES

(continued)

On vote 65: minister's office, $194,140.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to make

an introduction of the assistant deputy minister with me today, Mr.

John Mochrie, and also in a few minutes you will perhaps have Mr. Larry

Ward and Mr. Jeremy Hooper of B.C. Transit. Mr. Hooper is the chairman

of finance in the administration, and Mr. Ward is in charge of

scheduling.

I would like to say that all of these people, along with all of the

other members of the ministry, are ready to assist me in answering any

questions that you may have. I would also like to pay tribute to all of

them. As all of our public servants do, they give tremendous service,

and since I've had this ministry I've had the great support of these

people, as I have in all of the ministries which I have had the

pleasure to serve.

Now I look forward to the questions from the members of the

opposition, and I think we'll have a very constructive estimates day.

MR. HANSON: Mr. Chairman, following from the minister's

remarks, this side of the House certainly appreciates the fine public

service that we have in the province of British Columbia, and Mr.

Mochrie is a highly regarded career public employee. I know he is well

respected within the public service. I hope I haven't destroyed his

career path by saying that.

I want to reiterate a couple of points that I made yesterday: that

the Provincial Secretary's ministry is a very broad catch-all ministry

with a lot of disparate segments to it, kinds of governmental

activities. But what the public is most interested in at this time is

the fact that the political apparatus in this ministry has developed

into a propaganda apparatus within the public service. This is a

relatively new innovation in the last few years. At one time each

ministry had information officers, and they would issue press releases

and so on with respect to the activities of that ministry in an effort

to communicate their activities and inform the public. But the

information services were consolidated into a government information

services body. That in itself might not have been a bad thing, except

that under this government it was abused, in the sense that it has

become a political propaganda arm of Social Credit.

The government information service contracts polling for government purposes

to find — as Mr. Kinsella pointed out in his well-reported address at Simon

Fraser University some year and a half or two years ago — pressure points to

manipulate the public into supporting the government in power. A cynical manipulation

of the public emanates from the Provincial Secretary's ministry. It is quite

shocking to look at the numbers. For example, the advertising and publication

expenditure budget within this ministry has averaged approximately $20 million

a year over the last three years. This does not account for advertising conducted

by commissions, boards, Crown corporations, of which we have no knowledge; the

public has no eyes into the activities of the Crown corporations in this regard.

As you know, all we have is a look slightly into the past through

public accounts. The public accounts documents that are before the

Legislature now are fiscal year 1984-85. In my remarks yesterday, I

indicated to the minister that we could extrapolate forward, from

looking at those numbers, the torrent of tax dollars that flows into

advertising, polling, political propaganda, subjects and information

advertising which would much better serve the public if it was paid for

by the Social Credit Party and not placed on the backs of the taxpayers

of this province.

The advertising budget, as I stated, for this fiscal year totals

over $21 million; $5 million has been allocated over into the Tourism

ministry; there's an additional $3 million for statutory advertising;

but the informational advertising and publication budget of the

government is something in the order of $21 million in total. That is

an enormous amount of money, and I read into the record yesterday the

kind of film making that takes place — the government's attempt to

ingratiate themselves to the voters at the taxpayers' own expense.

Then there is the polling that's done around media activity. I read

into the record vouchers where in commercial messages the taxpayer pays

for focus groups to pretest and post-test media advertising to try to

manipulate the voters of the province, the public, into thinking the

government's performance is satisfactory. We know that Decima, the

government's own polling firm, has indicated that the satisfaction

rating of this government is among the lowest in Canada in respect to a

number of different questions in their performance.

Interjection.

MR. HANSON: That, Mr. Colleague, is another area that I

raised on the floor of this House. I would like the minister to make a

note of my first question to her so that after I finish my remarks she

could answer the question, and that is the attitudinal polls carried

out at taxpayers' expense by Gallup, by Goldfarb, by Public Affairs

International, by Decima, by Canadian Facts. The information in those

polls, the questions, the answers and so on, should be made available

to the people of this province. It should be made available to all of

the MLAs in this province. I believe the taxpayers themselves should

have access to it. Even Mr. Allan Gregg, the principal of Decima, has

indicated, as has Mr. Goldfarb, that the taxpayers really should have

made available to them polls that are paid for by the taxpayers.

Ontario has a process; B.C. has nothing. B.C. has secretive cabinet

members who have an inside track — those around the cabinet, and so on.

They try to deflect it away and say these polls are about educational

matters or land matters or native Indian matters, etc. These polls are

paid for by the taxpayer. The taxpayers have a right to know, and all

the citizens of this province would have better government if the

people themselves had access to the public opinion surveying carried

out with their money.

[ Page 8490 ]

Polling costs in this province are really outrageous, and these are

the numbers that we know. We don't know about Crown corporations, about

polling firms engaged by boards or commissions, like the lotteries

commission. What we have instead, in Public Accounts ,

are just a few numbers. We don't know what the polling questionnaires

or results were, but, for example, in '84-85, which is the fiscal year

under consideration by Public Accounts.... This is the only vehicle for

us to express our concerns, Mr. Chairman: on the floor of the

Legislature, under the Provincial Secretary's estimates. This

Provincial Secretary is in charge; she is the mandarin of public

opinion polling, advertising and political propaganda in this province.

She has jurisdiction over a number of key democratic processes such

as the elections branch and voters' rights. It is ironic that the

minister who has the most grotesque boundary manipulation of any riding

in this province presides over the voters' rights and the electoral

process in this province. It is an obscenity....

[10:15]

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Intergovernmental Relations.

HON. MR. GARDOM: ....the minister of gross boundary manipulation? That is most uncalled for, most unparliamentary, and illegal.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Regrettably, I didn't hear it. But it did offend a member, and the first member for Victoria will be asked to withdraw.

MR. HANSON: Mr. Chairman, I referred to what is popularly known as the Finger.

HON. MR. GARDOM: Order! Withdraw!

MR. HANSON: Withdraw? I can't withdraw the Finger.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Offence was taken by one member of this house

due to what was deemed to be an unparliamentary reference to another

member, and that is normally withdrawn. The Chair would request the

member do that and avoid unparliamentary language or unparliamentary

reference.

MR. HANSON: Mr. Chairman, my remark was that the minister's electoral boundary contains a gross...

HON. MR. GARDOM: That's not true.

MR. HANSON: ...abnormality, a political distortion.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The minister on a point of order.

HON. MR. GARDOM: Mr. Chairman, let's get the Blues down. If he accused her of gross boundary manipulation, that's illegal. I demand he withdraw.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I think a simple withdrawal will suffice. If

there is a problem, we can canvass the matter later, but really a

simple withdrawal of unparliamentary reference will suffice.

MR. HANSON: Mr. Chairman, I have many remarks to make in this

debate so I'm going to withdraw that because it certainly is in the

public mind, and I will withdraw it.

There's nothing more fundamental in a democracy than the right to

exercise one's franchise when one legally becomes a bona fide citizen

capable of exercising that right. Here in the province of British

Columbia we have an Alabama style of electoral process where today, as

we sit in this House,500,000 eligible British Columbians are not on

the voters' list. One in three voters eligible to vote in the

provincial election is not on the voters' list in the riding of the

minister responsible for voters' rights in British Columbia. If that

isn't a scandal of massive proportions, I really do not know what is.

Many times in this House we've called for a full enumeration which

could be done very simply, very economically, by setting up voter

registration booths in public libraries for a certain period of time,

or sending a voter registration card in the mail. We have a

computerized list in this province. We could send a small card in hydro

bills or Pharmacare bills, as is done now sending political propaganda

through these government corporations. We had a former energy minister

with his picture and political bulletin sent out with hydro bills

before he stepped down from cabinet because of his disclosure forms. We

have information sent out in Pharmacare mailings that is of a

propaganda nature.

What I'm asking for and what I want the minister to do is include a

voter registration card in these data banks of government, either

through the motor vehicle branch, B.C. Hydro or the Pharmacare system.

But for God's sake let the people of this province have what is duly

their right, the right to vote and to be on the voter's list. Because

when a person goes to vote on voting day, and, for example, they were

living in a riding such as Prince George — you may be familiar with

that particular riding, Mr. Chairman — and that person perhaps moves

away because there isn't any work and goes to an adjacent riding, they

turn up on voter's day and say: "I am not registered in the electoral

district in which I'm presently residing, but I satisfy all of the

other requirements." Guess what the regulation is? The person, because

they had once before been enumerated, cannot vote where they reside.

They have to vote absentee back where they were originally registered a

year or two or three before. What a scandal, Mr. Chairman.

We on this side of the House want, through the bill that I put forward on behalf of our colleagues here, the right....

AN HON. MEMBER: Order!

MR. HANSON: Well, let's frame it in a different way. We want

the right for a person to go into a polling place where they reside,

swear in in a duly authorized way with the deputy returning officer,

and be given the right to vote where they reside and have their vote

counted. Is there anything so revolutionary about that? People every

day on this planet are struggling to have the right to vote, and yet

here in British Columbia the government puts up impediment after

impediment, obstacle after obstacle to make it very difficult for

people to exercise their democratic rights.

This minister controls the voters' rights of this province. I have asked her, I've sent letters to her....

[ Page

8491 ]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Time has expired. The Committee is reminded that the necessity

for legislation cannot be discussed during Committee of Supply.

MR. COCKE: Mr. Chairman, I think the member is making some

very good points. I'd like to make some as well later on on the same

subject, but for now I'd like the member to carry on with his

dissertation.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The member for New Westminster simply rose as an intervening speaker, but the.... Okay.

MR. HANSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It would be a simple

matter, a very simple matter, to send it to the people of the province

in some form. some vehicle, at very modest cost. We know that the Provincial Report

sent to all citizens of the province every couple of months is done at

enormous cost; I have the numbers and I'll be discussing it later. That

is paid for by the taxpayer through the postal branch.

The people of the province are getting political junk mail from

Social Credit throughout the year. For heaven's sake, couldn't that

minister send them all a voter registration card? Couldn't that

minister send them a confirmation card to indicate that they're on the

list? As I pointed out yesterday, a person who endeavoured to get on

the voters' list after January 1, 1986 has not received a confirmation

card. They don't know whether they're on the list or not. What kind of

a system is this? Cheating on the most fundamental aspect of our

society: the right to choose their government, the people who represent

the interests of the electorate. Why is it so tough to be on the

voters' list in this province? Why aren't 18-year-olds given the right

to vote?

MR. CHAIRMAN: We have a legislation discussion now, hon. member. To the administrative actions of the ministry.

MR. HANSON: We on this side of the House want people who are

disabled to have the right to vote in their own home. That's a

proposal, Mr. Chairman. It's perfectly in order.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'll stand corrected, but it appears to me that it would require a legislative change.

MR. HANSON: It might be just a regulatory change. There may be any number of ways it could be done.

To put a voter's card in a Pharmacare bill, or to insert it in a Provincial Report

or a hydro bill, or just to mail it from the elections branch or

whatever would not require legislation. Ask the returning officers,

through the office of the chief electoral officer, to accommodate

people who are incapacitated at home. They are not in a nursing home,

not in a hospital, but for one reason or another — they have multiple

sclerosis or something — they can't get out to vote. There are mail

provisions in Manitoba and I believe it's being implemented in Ontario.

It was a proposal put forward by a federal task force in the

international Year of the Disabled and a federal report called

"Obstacles." They asked that people not be disfranchised through no

fault of their own by being elderly or sickly or disabled at home.

I'd like the minister to think about that. I've already made it clear

that we want free and easy access for people to vote where they reside.

We feel that we're living under a cloud in this province — the Larry

Eckardt cloud, which distorted the electoral boundaries in British

Columbia; in turn, the Warren report, which was stalled, the formula

that was imposed on the electoral commission of our province.... We

have indicated many times that we think the electoral commission is a

blue-chip, top-line commission, with the Chief Justice, the Clerk of

the House and the chief electoral officer on that. We have no quarrel

at all with the composition of the electoral commission in this

province. What we object to is the fact that they were not free to

review electoral boundaries; instead, a formula was imposed upon them

with a predetermined outcome, with doubling up of ridings on the basis

of the Eckardt formula, which is a gross political distortion that's

hurting democracy in British Columbia.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Again the member is discussing legislation.

AN HON. MEMBER: He's reflecting on a vote, too.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It's a year past, but....

Interjection.

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, no. The comment made by the minister from

his chair is actually incorrect. But I will advise the member speaking

— and all members of the committee — that the member is discussing

changes in legislation, and that would be inappropriate in Committee of

Supply.

MR. HANSON: Okay, fine.

Mr. Chairman, there are so many important subjects under this

minister. I know she is responsible for museums, and museums are vital

and important institutions. Our government did great things in funding,

on a stable basis, displays at the Provincial Museum. For a number of

years the museum here in Victoria was starved for funds under the

restraint program and displays were stalled. They're still poking

along; they're trying to get them underway. The library system across

the province was starved under the restraint program — adequate library

funding for library books and so on. Just as is the textbook situation

in education, the libraries have been inadequately funded in British

Columbia.

Mr. Chairman, one other thing I've been most concerned about is the

river and torrent of tax dollars that flows through the Provincial

Secretary's ministry, through the communications counsel of that

ministry, to fund all kinds of advertising. The political propaganda

arm which is.... The line is blurred. There is no distinct line between

the Social Credit Party...where that ends and where the government

functions begin. It's become a blur. This government has tried to erase

that line and get advertising to be of a political nature, paid for by

the taxpayer, contracted out through the communications counsel of the

Provincial Secretary.

There are so many people who I called yesterday fluffers and puffers

and doughnut-hole punchers doing this kind of contract work. For

example, I see no need whatsoever to pay.... I'm looking again at the

1984-85 fiscal year, because those are the only vouchers available to

us. Craig Aspinall is based in Vancouver. This is just one contract I

looked at where he was engaged for $72,000. The contractor principal

fee was $65 an hour. Now what is his job? The

[ Page 8492 ]

taxpayers have a right to know what this person,

who's not hired under the Public Service Act.... He is not hired on the

basis of merit. The thing is not tendered; it's not put out to public

tender like anyone laying asphalt or driving fence posts or doing other

kinds of work for the government.

[10:30]

What we have instead is a contract agreed to by the communications

counsel, and Mr. Aspinall.... This is what he'll do — the services

contained in the contract: he will perform upon receipt of prior

written authorization by the communications counsel.... In other words,

he's under the direct control and authority of the communications

counsel of the Ministry of Provincial Secretary and Government Services.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, I just

wonder if the member would stay with my vote. Mr. Aspinall did not have

any contracts with my ministry in the time-frame which we are

discussing in these estimates, and I would appreciate it if he would

ask the questions related to my ministry and expenditures in the

time-frame that we are discussing.

MR. COCKE: On that point of order, Mr. Chairman, the

responsibility for the portfolio is now in the hands of the minister.

The only public accounts available in the House — the only vouchers

that are available — are the vouchers and the public accounts for the

years 1984-85. I listened to the minister yesterday, and we were very

interested to hear her indicate: "Oh, well, that wasn't the figure."

We've checked the figure. Of course it was the figure. The

responsibility of this portfolio is now hers. Regardless of whether or

not she spent the money, it's now her responsibility. The only vouchers

before this House are the vouchers for '84-85, and she has to answer

for those vouchers.

[Mr. Ree in the chair.]

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: On the same point of order, Mr. Chairman,

if we follow the premise that the hon. member for New Westminster has

put forward, that we check vouchers and we look into vouchers.... There

is a place in the process. It's a very good system, and the hon. member

is on that committee; that is, the Public Accounts Committee. This is

not a committee of public accounts. This is the committee of the

estimates of the '84-85 fiscal year of the Ministry of Provincial

Secretary. Mr. Chairman, I have advised you that Craig Aspinall did not

have a contract with the Provincial Secretary for the year which these

ministry estimates are discussing. Therefore, if you wish to go back in

other years.... I'm sorry, I think firstly it's out of order; and

secondly that would extend estimates. We'll just take the subject of

advertising: we could go back to the Dunsky accounts and add them all

up and talk about the Dunsky accounts. We could talk about...

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: ...accounts for other areas...

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please, on the point of order.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: ...and frankly, Mr. Chairman, that would

extend estimates for every single minister for the full year. I want to

give all of the information that I have as much possibility to give,

and I'm very happy to do that, and I will continue to give as much

information as possible.

MR. COCKE: On the same point of order, Mr. Chairman, muzzling

the committee is certainly nothing new to this.... The fact of the

matter is that there are two terms we're looking at. You don't discuss

— and the minister should know this — the vouchers in Public Accounts.

You don't discuss that in Public Accounts. You discuss the vouchers in

this House. You can do it in question period or under the minister's

estimate.

We're looking at two things when we're looking at this: the year '84-85 and the year '85-86. That's what we're looking at — or

'86-87. And so, Mr. Chairman, to muzzle the committee after years and

years and years of being able to examine and to criticize this

particular situation would be absolutely absurd. There is no room in

Public Accounts. As a matter of fact, the way we meet in Public

Accounts, an hour or two a day....

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please.

MR. COCKE: But there is no room in Public Accounts for this

discussion. Once the vouchers are sought and found, they have to come

before the Committee or the House in question period — one or the other.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Just one moment, please, members. The points of

order are well taken on both sides, but we are under estimates for the

year 1986-87 and the administrative functions of the present minister.

Other information may be brought up as a comparison to the '86-87

expenditures, but we are dealing with '86-87, and members must

recognize that in the other comparisons they were not a responsibility

of this minister. The Chair would encourage debate to be relative to

the '86-87 estimates and the administrative functions and the

expenditure of the estimates by the present minister.

MR. HANSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I take your guidance

there. What I am essentially trying to communicate to the House is that

the only window that is open to the public to took into the precise

spending habits of the government is the fiscal year of public accounts

that is presently on our desks. That is the only window. Now I

understand that we're discussing the spending estimates of the ministry

of Provincial Secretary, but I'm comparing the behaviour and the past

practice with what is occurring now. That is, the government engages

contractors to perform all kinds of media coordination and advertising

and all kinds of activities that the public has a right to know about.

I don't know why the minister is afraid of the public knowing what is

being done and how their money is being spent.

If the public knew in a one-hour presentation or a half-an-hour presentation....

MR. CHAIRMAN: The member for New Westminster on a point of order?

MR. COCKE: No, Mr. Chairman, I seek the floor.

[ Page 8493 ]

MR. CHAIRMAN: The member was....

MR. COCKE: He had a red light on. I thought I'd just get up and intervene and....

MR. CHAIRMAN: That was in error. The Chair was cognizant of

the time taken on points of order and had indicated to Hansard to

provide another three minutes for the first member for Victoria.

MR. COCKE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, but let the record show that I seek to be....

MR. CHAIRMAN: On a point of order?

MR. COCKE: No, I seek to be recognized.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The member for Victoria was on his feet at the time you rose, sir.

MR. COCKE: I seek to be recognized, thank you.

MR. HANSON: I defer to the member for New Westminster.

MR. COCKE: Mr. Chairman, I feel that the member for Victoria

is going along very well, and rather than three minutes he's now got

15. Thank you.

MR. HANSON: I want to ask the minister a very, very serious

question. Because government polling is done in the ministry under

contract through the communications counsel and so on, I want to ask

her if she would today undertake to release all of the public opinion

polls paid for by the taxpayers that are available to her, from 1978 to

the present. They're listed in Public Accounts — Goldfarb, Gallup, a number of others. Will she undertake today to

release all of those to the public? The public has a right to know.

Second question: will she undertake today to advise this House that

under no circumstances shall there be any public opinion surveying done

with taxpayers' funds now that the Social Credit leadership race is

underway? I don't have to point out to you, Mr. Chairman, how

manipulative it would be for a government to undertake general

attitudinal surveys that could find their way into the leadership race

and that would more properly be paid for by the Social Credit

candidates or the party itself if it wanted to make information

available to the candidates.

I think that is a very important point that goes to the nub of her

ministry, because, as I have said, that minister presides over a

political apparatus, through an information service, the elections

branch, government polling and government advertising, unprecedented in

the history of British Columbia.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: Mr. Chairman, let me go back to some of

the questions that the hon. member for Victoria has asked. Let me take

the last one first, vis-Ã -vis polling. The member wants answers to

questions regarding government polling. I think it should be known by

this House that there were only two contracts given for polling. They

are....

MR. HANSON: In this fiscal year?

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: In '85-86. Goldfarb was retained at

$16,500 with one report, and a second report for $15,000, for a total

of $21,500 [sic]. There were no other polling organizations contracted

by this ministry beyond and above that.

The two reports that the Goldfarb organization did for this ministry

were related to economic renewal, education, social services and the

testing of the marketplace vis-Ã -vis those commercial messages in the

programs that our ministries of economics, education and social

services did. Market testing is a normal thing to do when one has....

The member himself has said that the government is probably one of the

largest.... If one looks at the expenditure, it is the largest business

in the province in terms of expenditures, and there is an advertising

program that goes along with that. I'd like to address that in response

to his earlier questions, and I will. But in terms of the market

response to that, it's quite a modest amount of money to spend to see

if the market has received and is receiving...and are we doing the

right thing in testing the comprehension of a message. It's not a poll

in the accepted sense of the word, and is merely used as an internal

guide to test the effectiveness of a particular commercial. That's what

those two polling contracts were for. So any other polls that the

member wants to refer to will have to be referred to in another

context, because I simply do not have those contracts within my

ministry.

[10:45]

I'd like to go now to his comments on registration cards and the

electoral process in the province of British Columbia. I'm pleased to

tell you that we are the only jurisdiction in Canada that has an

ongoing registration, an ongoing commitment to make sure that everyone

who can be on the voters' list is on the voters' list. We're the only

ones who have done that in a consistent, businesslike way. These cards

are sent out after each enumeration and after a writ has been issued,

in the time-frame of the election itself. Anyone who does not receive a

confirmation card after the writ is issued still has time to register

up to day 10 of the election time-frame. Registration can also take

place on polling day. It was this government that made that change — on

polling day alone. And this government introduced the regular

enumeration — that if you feel you're not on the voters' list all you

have to do today.... If anyone is doubtful at all that they aren't on

the registration list, they need only give a call to the office of the

electoral officer and can find out by telephone and make arrangements

to have a card sent to their home. They don't even have to go into the

office. It can all be done that way.

As for the public's not knowing that, the hon. member may be quite

correct. If that is so, I would be very pleased to look into the

possibility of letting the public know that that service is available.

It will take advertising dollars to do that. It will take moneys from

the ministry of the Provincial Secretary government information

services to tell the public that. I think that's a very good use of

government funds, to let the public know where they can get their

registration and be registered for an election. I will consider doing

that. I think that's a very wise use of government information service

funding.

Speaking of advertising, I'd also like to refer to another question

that you asked. It had reference to a dramatic increase in advertising.

It may well look like a dramatic increase, but I think the member will

admit that all of the advertising funds were put into one place: that

is, into the office of the Provincial Secretary. Heretofore, prior to

one

[ Page 8494 ]

budget ago, I think, or two budgets ago — I stand

to be corrected on that — there were advertising budgets throughout the

ministries. Now they are all under the Provincial Secretary under

government information services. When it is amalgamated into that one

place, it may look as though the Provincial Secretary has a very large

increase, but that would be a distortion of the highest order. We all

know that isn't true. We have taken those budgets from various

ministries.

Let me tell you what some of those budgets are. I did share with you

yesterday — although you repeated today a $21 million budget — that it

is indeed a $15,338,000 budget, of which $3,524,000 belongs to the

administration, salaries, benefits, operating costs and asset

acquisitions. But the balance is a far cry from the $20 million that

you once again quoted this morning — erroneously, I'm sure. It is $11,

814,000.

I'd like to tell you some of the things that that's expended on.

Especially in this very busy year of Expo 86, a very large part, $1.4

million or 12 percent, is identified for Expo 86 initiatives,

advertising related to Expo and ministry-coordinated needs; Expo legacy

promotion to make sure that the communities throughout the province

know that there are possibilities for them to have something besides

Expo in the city of Vancouver, but indeed will have an opportunity to

extend Expo to other communities; informational programs relating to

Expo and ministry-related projects, not the least of which is the

British Columbia pavilion, which will be an ongoing legacy of Expo 86

and will indeed in this year extend our opportunities for trade and

industry worldwide, and is doing so at this very moment. That program

alone the member should be on his feet to applaud, because that

business communications program is reaching out to some 30,000

industries and businesses throughout the world to extend and support

the industry initiatives of the province, which will result in creating

jobs.

If you look outside of that area, I could tell you of some of the

examples of ministry activities that are funded and met by the GIS

budget. Again, it's not a $20 million budget but after administrative

an $11 million budget. It's to promote the British Columbia

agricultural industry, a very important industry to our province:

publications on pest control for agriculture; livestock production

manuals; a five-year agricultural strategy; crop technology — there are

50 publications for crop technology produced by this ministry in

conjunction with the Ministry of Agriculture and Food; public

awareness; in-store promotions to make sure that people buy British

Columbia agricultural products; trade shows to make sure that our

people can get their products to the marketplace.

If we look at the Attorney-General's ministry.... We can go down any

one of the ministries, and I can tell you that the kind of advertising

that has been done has been done in terms of things like reports and

working papers for the Law Reform Commission, the Counterattack and

traffic safety. There's nothing frivolous about that. We believe that

the Counterattack and traffic safety program is the best in the

country, and if I may say so, Mr. Chairman, I think it is daily saving

lives — one of the things we cannot ever know about, but that program,

I suspect, does save lives and it is very much worth spending public

awareness advertising, whatever you think on it. Boards and commissions

that come under the Attorney-General have to have advertising, and do,

so that the public can know where to get services.

We can took at Consumer and Corporate Affairs. There are consumer

education courses in the secondary schools. Statutes and regulations in

all ministries have to be printed and distributed. In Education there

is curriculum development; learning assessment; examinations;

correspondence; publications; school operations; materials for the

visually impaired and the handicapped; special education programs, for

things like special Indian education programs so that we can learn more

about the first citizens of our province; institutional support

services; continuing education; Provincial Educational Media Centre;

academic technical programs. In Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources

there are technical publications, maps and reports.

All of this has been brought into the Provincial Secretary; all of

these things needed to be done in cooperation and coordination. It's

really using the good resources of an amalgam of people and putting

them together so that that part of my ministry which is called

Government Services can best service the various ministries.

In Environment, snow accumulation statistics; forecast trends in

water runoff, an important development. You can laugh. The second

member for Victoria (Mr. Blencoe) can chuckle, but you know, when we

don't have that kind of information given to the public and shared with

the public and a disaster occurs, the very member who chuckles today

can be very critical of this government for not bringing that

information to the fore. So it is a very important thing, and I wish he

would take it more seriously.

New waste management program; beverage container refund. Regulations

have to be printed and shared with all of the public. There is

environmental protection plans; privatization of map distribution

system, which is important for tourist opportunities in sports

fisheries; hunting regulations synopsis; wildlife management; hunter

training and waste management — all of those things that protect and

enhance the environment and give us a feeling that we have been doing

the best and giving the public some source of information. Fishing

regulations synopsis; fish distribution reports.

In Finance we have the public procurement strategy that was, I

think, a very good program under the Ministry of Finance, and we worked

on that. Consumer taxation; property taxation; government agency

brochures, all of those things. I could go on in Forests and in Health.

In Health it is very important that we share with the people of British

Columbia that the largest spending ministry. In the whole province of

British Columbia, for probably the best health service in the country,

is to be given to the people who want to have that information.

It may not be so important in this room today, but an elderly person

out there who wants to have long-term care and is looking forward to

retirement in old age has to know where that kind of information is

available. In the Ministry of Human Resources I can tell you full well

from my past experience in that ministry that we have very definitely

saved lives with the program which was waged in a war against child

abuse. It goes on today. It is paid through this ministry within that

budget, and it is being discussed in this vote.

But all of those things are being done for other ministries as a

government service to ministries. It is done for Industry and Small

Business, International Trade and Investment, for Labour, for Lands,

Parks and Housing, Municipal Affairs, Post-Secondary Education and

Transportation and Highways. Mr. Chairman, I think that those are the

kinds of services which my ministry and government information

[ Page 8495 ]

services is committed to share with the public. We

need to do that, and it is really the only place that the information

can get to the public.

MR. HANSON: Mr. Chairman, the minister did not answer my

question. My question was: would she release the public opinion surveys

paid for by the taxpayers over the last number of years; and would she

cease and desist from having any more public opinion polling done while

the Social Credit leadership race is underway? No response whatsoever.

Now she indicated, talking about the fiscal year under review at the

moment, that only, I think she said, $60,000 in public opinion

surveying has been spent so far. I am just looking at the average per

year. Let me just advise you, Mr. Chairman, and this is our concern in

this estimate debate: 1978-79, $293,000 for public opinion surveying,

known public opinion in public accounts; 1979-80, $182,000; 1980-81,

$269,000; 1981-82, $246,000; 1982-83, $155,000; 1983-84, $86,000. Then

the last year, which is the one that is the window where the public can

look in on public accounts, 1984-85, $168,000 of public opinion

surveying done. The breakdown of the $168,000: Goldfarb received

$42,250; Canadian Gallup, $65,000; Public Affairs International,

$60,000, for a total of $168,000.

Now why can't the public have those documents? It is a simple thing.

Let us see the questionnaires. Let's look at the responses and the

interpretations. We'd have better government; we'd have an informed

public. You see, the thing that this minister doesn't seem to

understand when we criticize and I criticize the advertising is that it

does not have credibility. It's a waste of taxpayers' money, because

what we have every night is that the public turns on their televisions

and they see some big Socred puss sticking at them through their tube —

some big Socred puss sticking out the TV tube at them, telling them

that forestry is okay in the province when everybody in the province

knows that forestry is in trouble.

That Minister of Forests (Hon. Mr. Heinrich), who had his little ad campaign recently....

[11:00]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please.

MR. COCKE: How do you like that! "Order, order." We can't ask

the Minister of Forests. He says: "Refer it to the Provincial

Secretary." Come on.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We are on the estimates of the Provincial Secretary at the moment.

MR. HANSON: I asked the minister in this House some time

ago.... And she never responded to me. In fact, she hasn't responded on

any of the questions I've asked her in question period that I can

recall. I asked her what the advertising and promotion campaign cost

around the budget, the saturation advertising around promoting the

budget this year. How much did it cost? Who did the main contracting

and subcontracting on the Finance minister's (Hon. Mr. Curtis'

s) ad

campaign around his budget? That is a specific question I would like

her to respond to.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: I do have the answer to that. I was

hoping the member would ask me, and if I may just find it in my papers,

and if he would just go on with his other question.

Could I just answer another one which I failed to answer when I was

last on my feet so he can have a minute to catch his breath here? He

did refer to the museum in Victoria, that great museum which we're all

so proud of and which I think all of us have tremendous affinity for:

the service that it has given over many years.... I'm always proud that

it remains free to the public. We've always resisted making a charge to

the public. I think that's a good policy.

I'd like you to know that it has had about a third of a million

dollars — $350,000 — added to its budget this year. I mentioned the

"Open Oceans" project which we are working on, which will be open in

October for the hundredth anniversary, the centennial anniversary, and

I wanted you to know that it has had an increase in its budget for this

year.

MR. HANSON: I did not get an answer from the minister. I'd be

happy to have her look in her book and give us the price of that ad

campaign. I'm certain that every person in this province could be

registered on the voters' list if that money was shifted over and

everyone received a voter registration card.

She did not indicate whether she would assure the House that public

opinion polling would cease between now and the leadership campaign of

the Social Credit Party on July 28. There should be no taxpayer-paid

public opinion surveying done to enhance any leadership candidate's

chances. It should be a level playing field. You should disclose all of

the public opinion surveys. The advertising that has had one Social

Credit cabinet minister's mush pushed at the public through the TV

tube....

AN HON. MEMBER: "Mush" is what you eat.

MR. HANSON: Every one of you has been on there, and I'm

saying we'd save a lot of money, because they don't have credibility.

Nobody believes them anyway. It's time for some specific commitments

from this minister: no more public opinion surveying in the confines of

the cabinet room; public access; release the documents that already

have been paid for by the ordinary folks; relieve the burden; shift

that money over; reallocate; re-priorize that money over to make sure

every eligible British Columbian is on the voters' list in the province

of British Columbia; free up that Electoral Commission and redraw the

boundaries before the next election.

There's another account that I'm very intrigued with, and I don't

know how we can get all the information, because I'm not sure whether

the minister.... The protocol and special services budget — here's one

budget in the Ministry of Provincial Secretary that went up by almost 5

percent. It's $6 million. Now what is that particular protocol and

special services? It provides for the expenses of cabinet ministers.

[Mr. Strachan in the chair.]

Its members, cabinet committees.... I'll tell you, Mr. Chairman,

there aren't a lot of cabinet committees in this House that are

functioning, are there? We have an ombudsman committee, the Standing

Orders Committee — the Minister of Health (Hon. Mr. Nielsen) and others

are on that. Then we have travel expenses for the executive council,

which is the cabinet; parliamentary secretaries....

AN HON. MEMBER: Do they get paid?

[ Page 8496 ]

MR. HANSON: Parliamentary secretaries and related staff

within Canada, including the payment of prescribed allowances, official

ceremonies, government-hosted functions. Boy, they eat well over there,

you know. They really put on the nose-bag. Costs associated with

visiting dignitaries and so on; $6 million of hors d'oeuvres, meals,

downtime. Meanwhile, how long are the lineups at the food banks? How

many groups are turned down for lottery grants for sports functions,

recreational functions and so on?

Another question of the minister. I asked her in the House — and

I've had no answer — where are the quarterly reports on the lotteries

disbursement funds? The last time we looked, four quarters not

reported. A senior staff member in the Provincial Secretary was quoted

as saying the documents are all in place. They haven't had approval for

release. The different lottery proceeds, grants, what organizations

were beneficiaries, what electoral districts got the grants — not

available. Why not?

This minister wants to be thought of as the person whose main

function is the "Open Oceans" exhibit. This minister is in charge of

propaganda, advertising, electoral abuse....

MR. CHAIRMAN: Now, now. That must be withdrawn, hon. member. That is a most unparliamentary reference.

MR. HANSON: I withdraw.

We need specific information. How come the protocol and special

services budget...? I think all members of this House should know what

the increase has been, because in 1985-86.... I have to advise the

House that I made an error in my percentage increase for protocol and

special services. I said it was a 5 percent increase; it's a $4.7

million increase. It went from $1.3 million to $6 million for protocol

and special services.

We on this side of the House knew there would be more government

functions with Expo. We acknowledge that. But $4.7 million? That's half

the budget of the Provincial Museum, which last year served 1.2 million

visitors. And they have a $4.7 million increase in their hors d'oeuvres

budget. It's scandalous. There's no possible explanation for that. At a

time of restraint, teetering on the edge economically as we are, to

spend $4.7 million! As I look through the vouchers I see the

extravagance: the extravagance of charge-out rates, the extravagance of

the bills paid, the extravagance of booking advertising time, radio,

television, print media. The advertising network is awesome, outrageous.

This House deserves a full justification of why cabinet ministers'

travel expenses and government functions budget quadrupled to $6

million.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member from

Victoria asked about the radio and television advertising which was

done in conjunction with the budget, the annual report of the Finance

minister to the people of British Columbia. That advertising totalled,

with production costs and all, $73,135, or approximately 6 cents per

household.

In addition, the member asked about the increase for the protocol

office. He has himself zeroed in on the reason for the large increase.

This year will be a year like no other probably in our time. Expo 86 is

an opportunity for us to welcome the world, and in doing so we welcome

royal visitors from all countries. We have over 50 pavilions with

foreign representatives of other countries who have come here to

display their country's best efforts to show the world. We have in

addition many, many corporations, a larger number, I'm told, larger

even than the corporate involvement of business in the very successful

Olympics held last year where everybody was so pleased with the results

of the corporate donations, resulting in a debt free budget for those

Olympics.

We had, I think, the opportunity, and we have the opportunity this

year, to do the very best for the visitors who come. The most important

aspect of that is the trade opportunities that we have, and they are

the most important. We have invited to the province of British Columbia

many thousands of people to come and to look, not just at the city of

Vancouver, not just at the region around Vancouver, but all through

Vancouver. Part of that budget extends people into the various regions

of the province in order to make sure that they see the kinds of things

which we can do in order to make business comfortable in the province

of British Columbia.

Whenever we talk about Expo 86 I think we can say in this House, if

we're really in our heart of hearts very honest, that Expo 86 probably

is one of the best opportunities that has ever come to the province of

British Columbia to enhance our trade and business relationships.

AN HON. MEMBER: Prove it.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: Because of that, the Expo....

MR. CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, one moment please. The first

member for Victoria has posed a series of questions. There was no

interruption when he was posing those questions. The minister is now

replying, and the minister will do so without interruption. Thank you.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: The budget, I have to tell you — the

same budget as he's talking about — sees no change at all in the travel

budget. It's still $474,000, and it's the same as it was last year. The

increase is in the part of that budget which pays for travel, which

pays for accommodation, which pays for people to come to Expo and for

us to be able to take advantage of this incredible year, so that we can

make use of this year to the benefit of British Columbians in ongoing

years. Expo 86 will be unquestionably the kind of stepping stone, the

kind of forward-looking initiative for the years ahead. Expo 86 is

already successful. And I appreciate that the hon. member for Vancouver

East, who is so noisy at this present time, really doesn't want it to

be that successful. Obviously he is stung because it is. But whenever

anyone looks at Expo 86 and understands the success of it — at the very

moment its success, let alone the success yet to be seen between now

and October 13 when it closes — I have to tell you that that

investment.... And it is an investment: it's an investment in the

future, it's an investment in jobs, it's an investment for the future

of British Columbia, and I really feel quite comfortable in speaking up

for that budget in this ministry.

[11:15]

I think you did ask about the quarterly report on lotteries, and you

had mentioned the question earlier in the legislative session. I have

asked for that report and I'll be able to table that report today. I

think that's about it, Mr. Chairman.

MR. HANSON: I thank the minister for making the figure available to us for the advertising campaign, but I'd

[ Page 8497 ]

like to indicate to her that this $73,000 to

advertise the provincial budget would have given 150 students a $500

bursary in the province of British Columbia to go to university — 150

students at university who are hard pressed because of the high student

fees and the underfunding by this province. This is the thing, you see,

Mr. Chairman; the government doesn't realize that that massive torrent,

that river of tax dollars that they flood through the media in their

advertising campaign, should be directed to students, to people who

want work, to people who need help. That's where that money should be

spent; and to justify $73,000 on that one campaign alone is really a

scandal.

As I and my colleague the member for New Westminster and the other

members of the Public Accounts Committee go through the vouchers, we

look at those baskets of hundreds of thousands of dollars attached in

little vouchers to someone to do a creative media campaign around some

political enhancement program around a minister who is politically in

trouble. The public watch it. They are numb from it. Their wallets are

numb. The public's wallets are numb from your extravagant expenditures

on advertising and fluffery and puffery and doughnut-hole punching.

They are sick of it.

At the same time, I want to ask the minister a question. Does it

bother the minister that 20,000 people within her riding 19 years of

age and over are not on the voters' list? What are you going to do

about it?

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: Well, again, Mr. Chairman, may I remind

the member that we are the only jurisdiction in Canada where any person

today can get onto the voters' list. He makes a claim of 20,000 in one

constituency or another, and I have to tell you that the member is

asking for a further expenditure of advertising money, or is making

that suggestion. I'll be very glad to make that advertising available.

MR. BLENCOE: The price of democracy, Grace?

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: I don't think the price of democracy

should turn on whether or not we should spend money on advertising. I

think it should be advertised. I have no difficulty with that, none

whatsoever. I think that that is a very bona fide expense, to ask

people to register themselves. It has already been done. It was done,

and it was done by law, a law which was put in by this House that one

year after an election total enumeration must take place. It was voted

in by this House. That's already been done. Everyone had the

opportunity then to be registered, and in an ongoing registration this

very minute, as we are here today in this debate, we can go and get

registered if we are not on the voters' list. We not only can go, we

can phone and have a card sent to our home and fill it out and send it

back. We don't even have to go in to the registrar of voters, don't

have to look for the office. We can make that information available if

you think it is too obscure at the present time. Quite honestly, you

make a very good point for government advertising, because people do

not know of the many services of government.

Some of the lists that I read out before vis-Ã -vis the expenditures

of very good services that are put forward by the various ministries —

you have been critical of the expenditures of those. I have to tell you

that that is information that the people of British Columbia pay for

and should know about. I will make that information available if the

member is concerned.

I also feel that the member knows also that his political party, as

with all political parties in the province, was given the opportunity

at the time of enumeration to receive cards. The chief electoral

officer. I understand, made those available to all political parties. I

didn't hold this ministry at that time, but I believe that to be so. I

was given that information.

We've gone to all lengths to make sure that people did get

registered. We keep it open so they can. I gave you the formula for how

one can get registered, even on the day of voting. It is this

government that made the ruling that you can even get registered to

vote and vote in the election on the day when it is held. I don't think

we can go much further than that. We've done everything. You are trying

to build some kind of mythical case that people are being left off the

voters' list, and it's just not so.

There is. I think, a price that we all have to pay for democracy,

and that is ever to be vigilant. There is also an onus on the public

themselves, the individuals themselves, to go to the trouble to be

registered. We have even made every opportunity available for that

right up to voting day. I think that it is an excellent system. It is

the best in Canada. There isn't anybody else that keeps that ongoing

registration anywhere else in this nation, so we have done our best for

that and we will continue to do so. I will give consideration to making

sure that the public knows.

MR. HANSON: Mr. Chairman, the minister stands in this House

and justifies $73,000 for the political campaign around the provincial

budget, which she said was six cents per household. I'll bet it

wouldn't cost much more than that to send a voter registration card

through fourth-class mail, or whatever, to every household in this

province, have those cards come back, be checked against the

computerized system, and we could have a provincial election with

everybody on the list. We could get that underway tomorrow.

But the bottom line in that side's

interpretation is to blame it on

the unregistered voter. The people that are hustling for work and

trying to find employment in this province, that are mobile, young or

whatever, having difficult times.... Blame it on the voter. If they're

not on the voters' list it's their fault: that's the Social Credit

line. Well, Mr. Chairman, that's absolutely false. It's the

government's responsibility to make a process available that guarantees

the right to vote. In Arizona, Massachusetts and a number of other

states.... This did not come from legislators; it came from

referendums, plebiscites and so on, from grassroots movements that were

sick of leaving a sloppy enumeration system up to government. The

people said they wanted to be able to go into the motor vehicle branch

and when they get a driver's licence they'll just say, "Am I

registered?" They push the button, they say, "No, you're not on there,

Mr. Dokes," and you sign up and you're on the list; you get a card.

Simple as that.

AN HON. MEMBER: We don't do auto testing anymore.

MR. HANSON: We don't even do safety testing on motor vehicles. That's why everybody's driving with one light and hay wire and bubble gum.

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, no. Provincial Secretary's vote, please.

[ Page 8498 ]

MR. HANSON: I'm going to sit back a little bit. A number of

my colleagues have comments to make, but I just want to say that I

would estimate that in the west end of Vancouver Centre two out of

three eligible voters are not on the voters' list right now. Is it

their fault that they're tenants, and that rents go up and they move,

or job opportunities come up and they move, or they move across the

street, which is in another electoral district? They're concerned about

employment, they're concerned about putting groceries on the table, and

they don't get on the voters' list again until election day. An

advertising campaign is not good enough. What we need is a card sent to

every household in this province. We don't need an ad campaign with you

doing tube analysis for the folks. We want a card delivered to the

household. Simple — return it to your local return address just as if

you're writing to a Member of Parliament or an MLA. It's as simple as

that. The letter carriers would be happy to carry it. They carry so

much garbage for the government, they'd be happy to carry something of

real importance. For the $73,000 you spent on that ad campaign, every

person in this province would get a voter card.

MRS. DAILLY: I've been listening to this debate all morning,

and needless to say, I'm not at all happy or satisfied with the

responses given by the Provincial Secretary to the member for Victoria,

particularly when he did an excellent job in exposing the waste of

money by the Social Credit government for their own government

propaganda purposes. I couldn't help thinking, as I sat here and looked

across at the members over there, that all four of them, except for the

House Leader, were in opposition when we were in government. The House

Leader, if I recall, was very active in another area at that time. I

believe he was a local hotline host. I recall that every one of those

people across the floor had a great time with the....

Interjection.

MRS. DAILLY: I'm referring to the Minister of Health and

Human Resources (Hon. Mr. Nielsen). I must clarify that. Maybe the

House Leader will become a hotliner next time around. However, back to

what I'm trying to put across here — without the interruptions.

I recall that those members were so vocal, running around the

province of British Columbia — and in this House — in accusing the NDP

government of wasting money. The interesting thing is that the money

the NDP government spent was spent on services to people, not on

services for self-aggrandizement. That is what's happening with the

Social Credit government.

MR. SCHROEDER: I was so kind to you.

MRS. DAILLY: You were not always kind — and rightfully so.

You had to do your job, and I'm doing my job now, I hope, in pointing

out that this government has wasted the taxpayers' money for their own

purposes of trying to win the next election through government

propaganda. That's the issue here. You have no right to take the

taxpayers' moneys and use them other than in services to people. Now

the minister says: "But we're using that money for information. It is

our job to give information to the citizens of British Columbia."

Nobody could quarrel with that.

[Mr. Ree in the chair.]

But what we quarrel with is that there is no line drawn between the

Social Credit government.... There should be a division between true

information and straight government propaganda. The line has been

completely fudged with this government, and it has merged. So instead

of the government television programs and your newspaper ads, media ads

etc. simply giving out information, every one is done very cleverly to

couch some information, and much of it biased and not factual, as has

been pointed out. When you have a minister saying, "The economy is

growing in this province," and at the time they make those statements,

we know they are in severe difficulty in many industries....

[11:30]

But putting that aside, we always have the face of a cabinet

minister coming on and taking

part in that program. If it is straight

information, my question is: why is it necessary to have every cabinet

minister involved in that ministry always there? Now the former

Minister of Agriculture, the member for Chilliwack (Mr. Schroeder),

looks very handsome on television. He comes across — or he did when he

was Minister of Agriculture — very sincerely, but I ask the House: why

is it necessary to have him on at all? It is only necessary to improve

the chances, they hope, of the Social Credit Party, and it is wrong to

be using the taxpayers' moneys for that purpose.

The Provincial Secretary could stand in this House, as she did this

morning, and say: "It's just information." I say to the minister: if it

is just information, would she please explain to us why all the

politicians of the Social Credit government-or most of them,

particularly the cabinet ministers — sooner or later are featured in

all these advertising blurbs, particularly, may I say, the Provincial

Secretary above all? Whenever the Provincial Secretary sends out

material to do with senior citizens, her picture is on it not only once

but maybe four or five times. Is that what's necessary to give the

information about the department or the ministry involved? So the first

question I would like to ask the minister is why it's necessary to

constantly feature the faces, the profiles of the cabinet ministers

when she has said: "All we want to do is give out information."

The minister also said this morning, if I recall, that the purpose

of the polling — and she still has not answered the question on why

those results will not be released — was something to do with testing

whether the type of advertising was being done properly. I couldn't

quite understand her answer, and I wish we could have it clarified.

What is the true purpose of the polling done by the government? Is the

minister suggesting that the true purpose is not to assist the

government in knowing how to develop their policies to make them more

electorally desirable?

Let's face it, those questions which we know are being asked are

used to help the government know in what direction to go to improve

their chances in the coming election. So when the minister tries to

deny that it has anything to do...or when she tries to couch it in

other terms, I would say that I don't think the minister is giving a

true picture of what government polling is all about. I would ask the

minister if she would explain to the House — this is my second question

— what the true purpose is of the polling that has been done by the

Social Credit government during the last few years.

[ Page 8499 ]

So the two questions are, why should ministers be on all public advertising and what is the true purpose of polling?

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: I think I did relate earlier in this

debate some of the things which government information services

undertakes to do. In some cases, such as an annual report, the

minister's picture would accompany that. There are a lot of just

informational reports, and most of the things which GIS puts out...in

fact, all of the things they put out to do with labour, apprenticeship,

employment training programs, municipal affairs circulars and notices,

building standards publications, curriculum development publications in

post-secondary education, pension information in my own ministry,

management manuals, records management manuals that we put out, museum

holiday packages, heritage tourism brochure series, parliament

buildings brochures which are used through this ministry, and safety

regulations for Transportation and Highways. None of those things have

an accompanying — or very few of them; I shouldn't say none, because

some of them, such as the annual reports, do have a ministerial

photograph.

I think I take exception to the fact that the former Minister of

Agriculture shouldn't have been connected with some of the good

programs which he initiated, because he did a very good job in that

ministry. The reason he did such a good job is that the people in the

agricultural field could relate to the minister in charge, and it is

quite in order for those who carry the burden of the ministry, initiate

the new programs and the new ideas for that ministry, to be credited

with those initiatives. I see nothing wrong with that.

I know that it stings the member who has asked the question, but I

know too that when that party was in power I do remember that not just

the minister of social services or human resources was photographed,

but his photograph appeared with a message to senior citizens that the

premier of the day, along with him, went to each of the senior citizens

of the province. So it's interesting that you make the comparison of

senior citizens, because that was done with a lot of aggressiveness

during the time of the NDP.

The other question that you asked had to do with polling. There are

two polling reports which were given to our ministry through Goldfarb,

nobody else. Goldfarb is the only public opinion poll that we have and

they amount to, in total, $31,500. They were done for market testing of

commercial messages related to economic renewal for education and

social services. No public opinion polling was contracted by government

information services with the exception of this Goldfarb market testing

of commercial messages related to those same things I have already

talked about: economic renewal, education and social services. It is a

normal process which is used in testing and planning of television

advertising, and is used by agencies to test the comprehension of the

message. It's not a poll in the accepted sense of the word, and it's

merely used as an internal guide. I've already said that earlier in

this debate, in case the member was out of the House and didn't know.

It is certainly an approved marketplace tool, and it was not to do with

anything other than economic development, social services and education.

MR. HANSON: The minister said that the market testing and the

ad campaign is around.... She has buzzwords like economic renewal and

so on. What they're trying to do is find out, if they have an

advertising campaign about northeast coal, whether the public minds the

hole being in the wrong place after the public expenditure has been

made. It is unfair to ask the taxpayer to pay for those things without

disclosing the polling information that is the underpinning of those ad

campaigns.

I do have a specific question of the minister. The cheque may have

been paid recently, and I'm not aware, but there had been some

undertaking by the minister that $55,000 would be given to Islands 86

to defray their Expo-related activity costs, I'm wondering if the

minister could advise me if that cheque has been sent to Islands 86

here in the Victoria area,

MR. MICHAEL: I would just like to take my

part in the

minister's estimates, and thank the minister and certainly her staff

for the commendable job that is being done in that ministry, and to

pass on to the minister the sincere gratitude and thanks from people

from all over the constituency of Shuswap-Revelstoke for the tremendous

cooperation that we've received from that minister in regard to

numerous approvals and improvements throughout the constituency

regarding lottery applications, PEETS grants, improving the Knowledge

Network in Sicamous and Armstrong, and the many new fire halls

throughout the constituency: in the communities of Swansea Point,

Celista, Lee Creek, the White Lake fire hall and, to be constructed

within the next few weeks, a new fire hall for the beautiful community

of Salmon Ann in the Shuswap-Revelstoke constituency.

Mr. Chairman, in looking across the constituency in the last few

months I can see improvements made by the Armstrong Kinsmen Club to the

softball facilities in that community, hall improvements being made in

the community of Ashton Creek, and things such as a new gas furnace for

the seniors in the Silver Creek area. Mr. Chairman, the list goes on.

I'd just like the minister to know the deep appreciation of all of the

constituents throughout Shuswap-Revelstoke. I see a new hall under

construction in the community of Pritchard; new facilities for the

seniors in the Sicamous community, and tremendous improvements about to

take place in the city of Revelstoke with the heritage buildings. Tens

of thousands of dollars are going to be spent in that community on

improving the beautiful heritage sites in the community of Revelstoke,

and I know all of the citizens of that community would appreciate my

passing on their thanks to the minister for this assistance from the

lottery fund. I also think of the Interior Provincial Exhibition

grounds, with which the previous Minister of Agriculture is very

familiar. Mr. Chairman, I believe we've had four new horse-barns built,

made possible by the generosity and support of the lotteries in the

province of British Columbia.

Mr. Chairman, I could go on. I'm talking about the new bleacher

facilities in the Salmon Arm fall fair grounds and the improvements now

under construction in the Armstrong curling rink.

I would not like these estimates to go by without taking my place

and passing on to the minister the thanks of all of those volunteer

organizations — organizations made up of people who give their time

freely. They need a little bit of assistance to make these tremendous

things happen throughout the community of Shuswap-Revelstoke. I'm

looking forward to the day when the minister will visit the community

of Shuswap-Revelstoke. I could perhaps spend a day or a day and a half

with her, taking her around and showing her these beautiful

improvements throughout the very lovely, diversified constituency of

Shuswap-Revelstoke.

[ Page 8500 ]

[11:45]

MR. HANSON: I'm sure that member has seen lottery

disbursements dribbled through in a political fashion in his riding, in

an attempt to get support in the next provincial election, but

certainly I think Mr. Gordon Priestman is going to do extremely well in

Shuswap-Revelstoke.

MR. MICHAEL: I think you're right: he is going to do well.

MR. HANSON: You betcha.

I'm happy that the minister has indicated that the four lottery

reports that have not been filed in this House will be filed this

afternoon. I'm very pleased about that.

Now I'd like to ask her a question with respect to casino gambling.

The minister — I believe it was last Friday — issued a press release

indicating that regulations were in place now covering bingo and casino

gambling, but it appears that the regulations are only covering bingo,

and we have not seen the casino-related regulations. Where are they?

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: Could I just respond to the other

question as well that was raised by the member for Victoria prior to

the very fine remarks from the member for Shuswap-Revelstoke. He asked

about Islands 86. Islands 86 as you know, was given support from the

government, and believe they have their cheque. You ask whether they

have their cheque. I believe they have. I'll be very glad to check into

that for you. However, there was a delay in their cheque because the

information that they were providing was not sufficient. It was delayed

because of that, but that's all. It was just a technical thing, and I

don't think it had been delayed very long. I believe they have their

cheque, but I wouldn't like to say for sure.

Secondly, you made a comment regarding the quarterly reports. I want

you to know that the one that I will file today, I am told, is the last

quarter of 1984-85. The ministry staff are compiling at this time the

ones which follow that, and we hopefully will get them into the House

before this session ends. So I want you to know that not four reports

will be in the House this afternoon, but one, the last quarter of

1984-85....

You asked about the new regulations for casinos and bingos. Those

regulations will be made public. I think that the sense, the meaning,

the spirit was certainly very well covered by the media. However, if

there are any further questions on regulations, I would be extremely

pleased to let you know.

I find it interesting that what really inspires the humour of the

member for Vancouver East.... He laughs at very strange things, and I

don't know what is so comical about the remark I just made. I really

wasn't planning to be funny. But if he gets a kick out of it, fine. He

likes to interrupt.

Anyway, I thought I had sent the regulations to your office last

Friday, by the way. If you haven't received the ones that are now

printed, I would be very pleased to make those available. I thought I

had done that, but I'll check on it.

MR. HANSON: Mr. Chairman, when the minister held her press

conference and indicated that there would be regulations for casino

gambling and bingo, it appears.... I think I have received the bingo

regulations. Is this the document that the minister is referring to —

"Policy Directives Respecting Licensing of Lottery Events"? It has

bingo, but it doesn't appear to have casino. For Bob Stewart of the

Vancouver police this is the area of real concern, because if

commercial gambling, which has just exploded in many parts of British

Columbia in terms of the number of places in which it is taking place

seven days a week.... The police are very concerned about the

possibility of underworld activity around that. They want tough

controls in place now before it grows any bigger. We need to know where

those casino regulations are. You indicated that you were releasing

them, but all we have are bingo regulations.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: Yes, you are perfectly right that you did

not receive.... I thought that you hadn't received the others, and I

was worried about that. The regulations are underway, following a very

good study that was made with police enforcers across the country, not

just in British Columbia. The head of the vice squad just today was

singing the praises of the regulations — both the ones which will be

forthcoming because he is knowledgeable of them and the ones that have

also been announced — and the spirit of the announcement. So you're

perfectly right; everyone is concerned. That's why when I first came

into this ministry I made the commitment that there would be some

changes made. Those have been done. The regulations will be forthcoming

very shortly in order to give people who are in that business, and also

the charities who have been involved and also the interested public,

the details of those regulations. They will be made available shortly.

But, frankly, I thought it was important, before the staff had finished

getting them into the regulation form, to put a stop to the

proliferation. Each and every week added more, and I really wanted to

put a stop to that very rapid growth. I believe members on both sides

of the House agree with that action.

MR. MacWILLIAM: My colleague brings up a point that I wanted

to discuss also with the minister. The minister is quite accurate when

she says that regulations were forwarded to our offices. Those in fact

are the regulations governing bingo operations but certainly not

regulations regarding the casino operations. So the press release dated

May 30 from the minister's office is in fact misleading, because it

does give the impression and in fact did give the impression — in

talking to the media throughout the province — that the regulations had

already been released. That's not the case. They have not been released.

The other misleading impression is that.... I'll read the quote:

"The new bingo and casino policy directives are the result of

consultations with a wide variety of community groups." I agree with

half of the statement. There was consultation with regard to a

discussion of bingo regulations. That was distributed under the

previous minister, and various community groups were given the

opportunity to respond; I had a few words on the matter myself.

However, the regulations pertaining to casinos were not, to my

knowledge, given a wide input from the community at large. I think that

the minister is deliberately misleading here, because there was no

opportunity for public input on this.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Would the hon. member withdraw the comment "deliberately misleading."

[ Page 8501 ]

MR. MacWILLIAM: I withdraw the comment, Mr. Chairman. Perhaps it was non-deliberate, but misleading nonetheless, that there was....

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Misleading or accusing....

MR. MacWILLIAM: I'm referring to the statement, Mr. Chairman. The statement is misleading.

MR. CHAIRMAN: You're not suggesting the minister was misleading.

MR. MacWILLIAM: I'm not suggesting, of course, that the minister is misleading.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Taken as withdrawn.

MR. MacWILLIAM: I think that the minister's statement has

some confusion, and there was not any degree of community input when

these regulations were drafted. I would like to ask the minister why

there was not an opportunity for community input, why there was not an

opportunity for debate of this matter, why there were no interim draft

regulations presented and there was no discussion allowed on that

basis. Can the minister respond to that?

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: The member makes some allegations about

misinformation, but I have to say that we were all given warning. When

I first took on this ministry, I gave the statement in the House in

response to, I believe, that very member — maybe not; maybe the first

member for Victoria (Mr. Hanson), who asked about casinos and the bingo

games — and I said that I was very concerned. If you look up the Blues

of the past, Hansard of the

past, you will know that I made that statement, and it should be no

surprise to you that I did tidy up the regulations and am awaiting now

the regulations for casinos to be in proper form so they can be

distributed properly.

I want you to know they are done, and the reason that they weren't

ready for the press conference on Friday was that some members of one

group did not have an opportunity to look at them — the law enforcement

group. We wanted to be sure that they did have that opportunity.

However, we will be bringing them forth, and we will certainly make

them available to you.

I don't think the member said that we did not have good input from

law enforcement agencies. I don't believe he made that comment, but

maybe it would make you feel a little more comfortable to know that we

sought not just information from within the province of British

Columbia but also from across Canada. I am given to understand that we

had very good input from the law enforcement agencies on this subject.

You will have the opportunity to see those regulations in the very near

future, because we want them circulated so they will be well known by

everyone who is involved in the game, if you will pardon the expression.

MR. MacWILLIAM: It's been brought to my attention that the

police.... On CBC this morning, one of the inspectors in Vancouver as

much as admitted that there was no input.

Let me go on record as saying I don't disagree with the direction

the minister is taking. We have some very serious concerns about the

matter ourselves. What does concern me is that there has not been

adequate public participation; there has not been adequate time to vet

the regulations to see if there are any shortcomings in them. I would

suggest to the minister — in fact ask the minister — if she could

perhaps give the public, the community groups, the police an

opportunity now, before those regulations go to final draft form.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: Mr. Chairman. I thank the member for his

advice. He

preambled the discussion on casinos — as did the first

member for Victoria before him — with his own awareness that the fear

of the casino operation was that it would perhaps bring organized

crime. No one is disagreeing with that. I think any further delay in

the action would perhaps have resulted in.... As minister responsible,

I felt the action had to be very fast once I had the information, and I

take full responsibility for acting that quickly. I have no trouble

with that at all.

I don't want to keep returning to this, but I want the second member

for Victoria to know that Islands '86 did receive their cheque about

three weeks ago.

Now I'd like to move that this committee rise and report great progress.

The House resumed; Mr. Strachan in the chair.

The committee, having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again.

Hon. Mr. Nielsen moved adjournment of the House.

Motion approved.

The House adjourned at 11:59 a.m.

[ Return to Legislative Assembly Home Page ]

Copyright © 1986,2001: Hansard Services, Victoria, B.C., Canada