LEGISIATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 15 March, 1982 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. D. James Walding (St. Vital): Presenting Petitions .. Reading and Receiving Petitions . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Munici­ pal Affairs. HON. A. R. (PETE) ADAM (Sle. Rose): Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, I wish to table the Fourth Annual Report of the Manitoba Municipal Employees Benefit Fund for the year ending December 31, 1980 ; and I wish to table the actual Report on the Pension Plan for Employees of Participating Municipalities of Mani­ toba as at January 1, 1980; and I wish to table the 23rd Annual Report of the Municipal Board for the year ending December 31, 1981. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to table the Annual Report of the Department of Health for the calendar year, 1981. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. MAUREEN L HEMPHILL (Logan): Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to table the following reports: Education in Manitoba 1981, Annual Report; the Annual Financial Report for the year ended March 31, 1981, the Univer­ sity of Manitoba; Manitoba Universities' Grants Com­ mission, the Annual Report for the year ending March 31, 1981; the Brandon University Pensian Fund, Audi­ tor's Report and Financial Statements for the year ended December 31, 1980; Brandon University Audi­ tor's Report and Financial Statements for the year ended March 31, 1981; and the University of Winnipeg Auditor's Report and Financial Report for the year ended March 31, 1981; and the University of Winnipeg Auditor's Report and Financial Report for the year ended March 31st, 1981.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. VICTOR SCHROEDER (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to table the Annual Report for the Manitoba Labor Management Review Committee for the year ending Decebmer 31 st, 1981, and also the 1981 Annual Report of the Department of Labour and Manpower. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion ... Introduction of Bills ... 369 INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Questions may I direct the attention of the honorable members to the gallery on my left where we have 20 students of Gr ade 7 from lie des Chenes School.

This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Emerson. On behalf of all the members I bid you welcome this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Finance.

I would ask him whether, in view of the statement by a parliamentary secretary, a Federal Government spo­ kesman in Ottawa, that the Federal Government is considering, or has given consideration to a new form of income tax to be levied against homeowners because they don't pay rent, whether the Minister can advise the House whether the Government of Mani­ toba has given any consideration to such an incredi­ ble suggestion? MR. SCHROEDER: Well, Mr. Speaker, this is the first I've heard of the suggestion.

I can assure the honour­ able member that idea has not been under considera­ tion of the Government of Manitoba, and I should add that if the colleagues of the honourable member, fed­ erally, were in the House in Ottawa they would be able to ask that question directly of the people who are doing that type of considering. MR. SHERMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, perhaps they're not in the House because that's the kind of House that has developed, and that's the kind of government that has developed in Ottawa. But, notwithstanding that, Mr.

Speaker, supplementary to the Honourable Minis­ ter of Finance, can he advise the House whether con­ sideration of that kind of measure with respect to farms or other properties has been given by this government? MR. SCHROEDER: No, it has not, Mr. Speaker. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, just so that we can sleep easily in our beds tonight, can the Minister of Finance advise the House of this government's posi­ tion on the principle involved; the principle of penali­ zation of equity and of homeowner effort? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr.

Speaker, I thought I had ans­ wered as clearly as I could when I said the particular tax involved had not been under consideration by this government and is not under consideration by this government now. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert.

MR. G.W.J. (Gerry) MERCIER (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Urban Affairs. Could the Minister explain to this House why his government would not participate in the City of Winnipeg proposal for a joint $4 million city­ provincial Water Renewal Program, as our govern­ ment responded positively to the City in the fall of 1980 to participate in a joint $4 million capital works construction program? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consu­ mer and Corporate Affairs. HON. EUGENE KOSTYRA (Seven Oaks). Mr.

Speaker, in response to the question, our government has indi­ cated and has announced an increased grant to the City of Winnipeg to cover all areas of its functions including capital works. I might add, Mr. Speaker, that grant has been an increase over the previous year of some 16.5 percent and is the largest grant given to the City of Winnipeg by the Provincial Government in recent years so the City of Winnipeg has the funds available to it from its own sources and that which was provided by the province, to do the kind of things that have been outlined by the member. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the Minister indicates they will not participate in a very important program for the City and one which is causing a great deal of concern to residents of this city and in view of the statement by the now First Minister in their election document indicating con­ cern with the city raising the price of essential servi­ ces such as ambulances, Mr. Speaker, can the Minis­ ter indicate whether he will be providing any additional financial assistance to the city to prevent an increase in ambulance fees? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Speaker, in response to the question, first of all in the

preamble to the question the Member for St. Norbert indicated that the prov­ ince was not providing assistance to the City of Win­ nipeg so that it could provide much needed services to the residents of the City of Winnipeg. The decision on the reduction of capital works by the City of Win­ nipeg, a reduction in total terms from previous years was done, it was a decision made by the City of Win­ nipeg not by the province.

The province as I have indicated, has increased its funding to the City of Winnipeg substantially but at the same time the City of Winnipeg has decreased the amount of money available for capital works. I think the City of Win­ nipeg and its councillors have to answer to the citi­ zens of Winnipeg for that reduction. In response to the question with respect to ambu­ lance services, that grant which comes under the Department of Health and is presently under review and I think will be announced in the near future. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the now First Minister's statement in his election document that his party wished to ease the property tax burden, and in view of the fact that school mill rates have been estab­ lished in the City of Winnipeg which will apparently provide for an additional $67.20 tax by City of Win­ nipeg Tax Bureau in that division based on an average 370 assessed home, and in view of the fact that the City has Estimates under consideration which involve a further increase of approximately $120 for that aver­ age assessed home, Mr.

Speaker; in view of the fact that the Foundation levy itself has not been announced and no doubt will further increase that burden, Mr. Speaker, does the Minister intend to provide any addi­ tional financial assistance to ease the property tax burden as they indicated in their election document? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consu­ mer and Corporate Affairs. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated the direct grants that we've given to the City of Winnipeg have increased by significant amounts and that way has helped alleviate any further burden on the taxpayers of the City of Winnipeg.

The Minister of Education has indicated the increases in grants to the Winnipeg School Division, which has had a direct impact on that portion of the city tax bills and any other measures that may be considered will be done in context of the budget, Mr. Speaker. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, inasmuch it appears there is no financial relief in sight for city taxpayers, I would ask the Minister another question. Has he met yet with the executive or representatives of the Mani­ toba Urban Municipalities in order to discuss the reso­ lutions which they passed at their convention last fall? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr.

Speaker, again the member for St. Norbert has tried to indicate that there's been a lack of assistance to the City of Winnipeg. As I indi­ cated - and I'm repeating myself - there's been a significant increase in the amount of assistance to the City of Winnipeg. Mr. Speaker, it's very difficult in one year to turn around the neglect to the City of Win­ nipeg that went on by members opposite for the last four years and we can't turn that around in one year, Mr. Speaker.

In response to the direct question, I have not met as of yet with the Association, but will be meeting with them this afternoon, or some of my col­ leagues will be. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the Minister and I suppose other representatives of the government are meeting this afternoon, could the Minister advise the House what position he will be taking with respect to their resolution requesting an increase in sales tax? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Speaker, that matter will be dis­ cussed with them and any changes will have to wait what's done at Budget time. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister would be kind enough to answer the question. I asked him what position he would be taking on that. Would he be agreeing with that request or turning it down? MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Member for Ellice have a point of order? POINT OF ORDER MR. BRIAN CORRIN (Ellice): Yes. The Honourable

Monday, 15 March, 1982 Member for St. Norbert, Mr. Speaker, is essentially asking a question of policy of the member of the Treasury Board and I would address this for determi­ nation to the honourable member and yourself. I think properly this question cannot be answered until the Budget is struck and announced in the House as it is a matter of policy and that is my point of order. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: I believe the question is within the realm of parliamentary area in this regard and I'm sure that the Minister will answer it accordingly. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. ORAL QUESTIONS (Cont'

d) MR. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Economic Development and Tourism. There was a committee set up of deputies of the Province of Manitoba to be the deputies concerned with the industrial develop­ ment programs in the province and it was chaired by two deputies, the Deputy of Economic Development and Mr. Anderson, whom I believe is the Deputy of Crown Investments at the present time. Is that com­ mittee still in existence? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Eco­ nomic Development. HON.

MURIEL SMITH (Osborne): There is in exist­ ence a mega project subcommittee of Ministers and there is a regional benefits group within my depart­ ment. but there is not an acting group such as you describe. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minis­ ter if the benefits group or the mega projects group within the department still have the policy of "Buy Manitoba First, Canadian Secon d. " MRS. SMITH: Mr. Speaker. the regional benefits group is looking at the entire question of procurement of materials both in Manitoba and in Canada.

It goes beyond looking at mega project requirements to gen­ eral government requirements and other industrial requirements. The preference of buying Manitoba is implicit but there's not a financial differential recognized. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kirk­ field Park. MRS. GERRIE HAMMOND (Kirkfield Park): My ques­ tion is to the First Minister. Mr. Speaker. Could the First Minister inform this House whether he has had new carpeting installed in his office? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker. the answer is yes, but questions pertaining to matters pertaining to this should be directed to the Minister of Government Services or the Acting Minister. MRS. HAMMOND: A supplement to the First Minis- 371 ter. Mr. Speaker. In light of the high unemployment in Canada, could the First Minister confirm that the new carpet in his office was imported from England? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Munici­ pal Affairs. MR. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker. in the absence of the Minis­ ter responsible for Government Services, I would take that question for the Minister and advise the honour­ able member that my understanding is that the carpet that was replaced in the Premier's office is part of an ongoing program of upgrading the Legislative Assembly building. The carpet in question was approximately 13 years old and due for replacement. in any event. I understand as well. Mr. Speaker. that most of the carpet that was removed will be recycled in other areas. MRS. HAMMOND: Again, to the First Minister.

In light of the financial hardships faced by many Manit­ obans. could the First Minister confirm that he is now walking on a new plush carpet in his office that cost $75 a yard? MR. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is now asking for detailed amounts and figures and I would ask that that would be more appropriate in an Order for Return. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I'll just interrupt the proceedings for a moment to draw attention to the gallery on my right. I am informed that we have some 20 members of the Manitoba Association of Urban Municipalities.

I have no further details but on behalf of all of the members. I bid you welcome this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS (Cont'

d) MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. LLOYD HYDE: Thank you. Mr. Speaker. A ques­ tion to the Minister of Community Services and Cor­ rections. Can the Minister confirm that his depart­ ment has hired two additional staff at the Women's Correctional Institution in Portage la Prairie? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Com­ munity Services. HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker. I'll take the question as notice. MR. HYDE: Further to the same Minister.

I would ask the Minister. when he is taking that question. if he would inform this House as to what category the two employees are being hired for and also are they in the 1982-83 Estimates, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Com­ munity Services.

Monday, 15 March, 1982 MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, of course, we are in the Estimates of the Department of Community Services and Corrections and I would invite my honourable friend from Portage la Prairie to be present with his colleague from Fort Garry and ask these questions. The staff will be here. We don't have to take anything as notice I would suggest, Mr. Speaker. We will be glad to present that information to you right here as soon as we get into the Department's Estimates. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. ROBERT (Bob) BANMAN (La Verendrye): Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, I address my question to the Minis­ ter in charge of the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation and would ask him, Sir, whether or not he could confirm that the applications for the Mortgage Interest Relief Program, announced back some month-and-a-half ago, I believe in the beginning of February, that those application forms won't be ready for another two weeks. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. ALVIN H. MACKLING (St. James): Mr. Speaker, I have no knowledge of the statement the honourable member makes. MR. BANMAN: Well, Mr.

Speaker. in light of the many calls we're receiving, with regard to this much touted program and the hardships that are being faced by people who are facing renewals on their mortgages, could the Minister check with his department and find out when we we'll have these applications available to us that we can forward them to our constituents? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I will be happy to advise the House. MR. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minis­ ter in charge of Sport.

I wonder if he could inform the House when he will be announcing a recreational grant program similar to the Sport Facilities Program which were announced in the previous years. In other words, a capital works project for rural recreational facilities. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Fitness and Sport. MR. DESJARDINS: If the member, Mr. Speaker, ref­ ers to the grant that we started about seven or eight years ago, I wish to tell him that yes, there will be approximately $1 million this year instead of $2 mil­ lion. It will be a two-year program. MR. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the Minister for those answers. I wonder if he could inform the House then, I believe there was a trust account of in excess of $2 million with regard to Lot­ teries which traditionally has been used as he menti­ oned by the previous government and the govern­ ment before that for this type of a program, could he inform the House what he will be using the other 372 monies that were set aside for this type of a program within his department? MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, I will be glad to inform the Minister but my Estimates I think are next and that will be the proper time to discuss these pro­ grams and the money from Lotteries also. MR. BAN MAN: Another question, Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister.

I wonder if he could inform the House whether or not the program which allowed curling rinks and arenas who were using artificial ice plants to take the lesser amount of the demand billing or the regular billing, if that program will be continued so that the adverse effects of demand billing on recrea­ tion facilities will not be an undue hardship on these community facilities. MR. DESJARDINS: That particular program is under review; I doubt very much if it will be renewed.

Appar­ ently it did not have the desired effect and it encour­ aged people to waste energy instead of saving it, so we are looking at the possibility of replacing this pro­ gram with a program that will make people aware of the importance of saving energy. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. ABE KOVNATS (Nia kwa): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Honourable Minister of Environment. Can the Honourable Minis­ ter advise if an odour control program has been initiated around the meat processing plants in St. Boniface? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of North­ ern Affairs.

HON. JAY COWAN (Churchill): I thank the Member for Niakwa for notice of this question, Mr. Speaker, and correspondingly I will be making requests of my department to provide him with detailed information specifically in regard to the difficulty which he has experienced in this area, driving through that area and has brought to the attention of the Legislature previously. So I hope to be able to provide the hon­ ourable member with more detailed information in the very near future in this regard. MR. KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Further on the odours that I find a little bit distasteful in my area. it is not only myself but there are other members of the Legislature that drive through the area, the Member for Springfield, the Member for Transcona, the Member for Radisson, the Honourable Minister of Natural Resources, the Honourable Member for La Verendrye, all the southeast area, so I am not the only one who finds it a little bit inconvenient driving through the area.

But I am not too sure whether, in fact, the problem that I have been involved with is going to be corrected in the next short time or not and if, when the Honourable Minister is investigating and finds that there is a control program, would it be of a permanent nature? MR. COWAN: Given the information just presented

to me by the Member for Niakwa, it looks like we have the makings of a good Legislative subcommittee to deal with this particular problem. I can't be more spe­ cific in respect to the question as to whether or not the control program will be a permanent program, nor can I be more specific at this time as to exactly what sort of program will be put in place.

But I do wish to assure the member that we will be working on the concerns which he has forwarded to me, both through the question period and outside the question period and by the way, have been forwarded to me by others from time to time as well and I hope to be able to provide more detailed response to him as soon as that information becomes available. MR. KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to advise the Honourable Minister that there is some urgency, particularly with the problem that we've been having in the Windsor Park-Southdale area with the watermains bursting over this very very rough time over the winter, and with the mains bursting -I would hope that it would just be the watermains rather than the sewage mains - but if the problem does continue I can see where there could be some prob­ lems with some stuff that should be going through the sewage system coming to the surface, similar to what has happened at the fish plant in Transcona.

So I advise the Honourable Minister that in effect there is going to be a problem soon and I wouldn't want to see it take too long to find out whether in fact, the problem can be corrected. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Does the honourable member have a question he wishes to direct opposite? MR. KOVNATS: To the Honourable Minister of Environment, I do have a question and I think in that last little bit of words that came out there was a ques­ tion there and the Honourable Minister was rising to answer, so I would accept that he has accepted it as a question. MR. COWAN: Mr.

Speaker, I'm glad that I've finally found somebody who can ask questions like I give answers. In brief, Mr. Speaker, that is the first time that specific problem in respect to watermains breaking, has been brought to my attention. I will immediately upon the first opportunity arising this afternoon ask my staff to provide a detailed report to me in that regard and I will forward the information which is of a public nature to the member as well as probably have an opportunity to sit down with him and discuss options and ways by which we can deal with what appears to be a very serious situation. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. ALBERT DRIEDGER (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Agriculture, I would like to direct my question to the First Minister. To my knowledge there are four operators in Manitoba who pick up dead farm animals. These operators have been informed as recently of a decrease in the price for their product to the point where they feel they cannot provide this much needed service in the rural 373 area anymore.

I wonder if the First Minister would consider requesting the Minister of Agriculture to help try and resolve the problem so that this much needed service could continue MR. PAWLEY: I believe that question should be directed to the Minister Responsible for the Environment. MR. COWAN: Mr. Speaker, that situation has been brought to the attention of the Environmental Man­ agement Division. We are now in contact with the owners of the rendering plants and we hope to con­ tinue that dialogue and those discussions to a satis­ factory conclusion in the near future. MR. DRIEDGER: Mr.

Speaker, I actually would much have preferred to ask the question to the Minister of Environment anyway, considering the way the First Minister and the Minister of Agriculture have dealt with the Beef Program.

So considering the fact that there is approximately 1,000 dead animals involved per month and considering that there is going to be a major problem this spring, would the Minister con­ sider possibly a supplement or some kind of an assis­ tance program for these operators in terms of either by the head or by the pound so that they could con­ tinue to provide this service, because once the spring breakup comes the potential air pollution or water pollution is going to be quite dramatic. MR. COWAN: Of course, Mr.

Speaker, we are con­ cerned with the problem and we will examine and investigate all the options which are available to us, that being one of them. But I would hate at this point of time when we are now involved in active discus­ sions to prejudge the outcome of those discussions by placing that sort of a commitment before the House. So I cannot in good faith make that commit­ ment at this time nor do I believe that it would be appropriate.

But I do take the members suggestions and the suggestions of others in that respect which have been forwarded to us under advisement and will answer accordingly when we have more specific information available in that regard. MR. DRIEDGER: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I just hope, to the Minister, that this thing will not take too long once the service has been terminated that it is going to be very hard to get it activated again, so I hope we are not talking in terms of months to study this issue. MR.

COWAN: Well, I can assure the memb er that it is a very complex question and that there are a great number of considerations which have to be taken into account when dealing with such a question and one has to make certain that the product arising out of dead carcass is not entering into the human food chain in any way. There has to be serious examination done of the entire process and the guidelines or regu­ lations as the case may be which are in place to ensure that doesn't happen.

So it is going to take some time and I believe that the time it is going to take is time well spent if in fact it is spent to improve the integrity of food for human consumption. So I cannot

offer to him any assurances that we will have an answer in the very near future. The assurance which I can provide to him is that we will act on this matter with all due speed and that we will attempt to come to a satisfactory resolution of the problem as quickly as possible, at the same time allowing us an opportunity to thoroughly review all facets of the situation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside: MR. HARRY ENNS (Lakeside}: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the Honourable Min­ ister of Finance in his capacity as Minister of Labour.

We are some four to six weeks away from beginning the planting season again and I wonder if the Honour­ able Minister could indicate to farmers who have had to, for one reason or another, rely on offshore or foreign help in getting their crops in and off particu­ larly in the vegetable industry.

In view of the NDP party's position on this matter, would the Honourable Minister of Labour be kind enough to give some indi­ cation to those farmers concerned and indeed to those potential workers concerned, the position that the Government of Manitoba will be taking with the request that they will be facing for the permits to allow 20 or 30 families I believe, essentially from Mexico, to come and work in the Portage la Prairie area. MR. SHCROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As in past years there is discussion now ongoing between the department the farmers involved and the Federal Department of Immigration and if it appears at the end of those discussions and spring comes nearer that there will be a requirement for people from other countries, then it may well be that permits will be issued again this year. There is no indication of a change in government policy at this time, we're just looking to see exactly what the situation will be in spring. MR. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

On Wed­ nesday last I posed a question to the Minister respon­ sible for the Manitoba Telephone System as to whether the system was contemplating the acquisition of major new office space either by purchase or by con­ struction. Could he provide that information today? MR. EVANS: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, I don't suspect that that is a major undertaking for him to pose to his chairman of the MTS board and I wonder if he might make that inquiry, and whilst he is making that inquiry if he could make the additional inquiry as to whether the Manitoba Telephone System will be applying for a rate increase in the near future. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I will endeavour to get the information on the office space.

With regard to any changes in rate structures by any utility, those are made from time to time and if and when the utility, whatever utility it is, decides to go the Public Utilities Board it becomes public information at that time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. 374 MR. GARY FILMON (Tuxedo). Mr.

Speaker, on Friday I had an opportunity to ask some questions of the Minister of Education regarding the school addition at Leaf Rapids and I am wondering if,.perhaps, she has had an opportunity to look further into the matter because I believe that her response on Friday in ques­ tion period was to the effect that there were not penalty clauses in the contract should she choose to cancel the contract, but the report of it in the paper says, "Minister has indicated that the project would continue because heavy penalty clauses would have been levied against the government if the building contract had been broken." I wonder if she could clarify that point.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. MRS. HEMPHILL. Yes, Mr. Speaker, I can clarify it and I want to thank the member opposite for giving me the opportunity to do so. When I was speaking on Friday I said there weren't penalty clauses, I meant to say there were protective clauses for government to get out of the building program, and I would like to give a little bit of additional background to show the sequence of events, Mr. Speaker. On June 3rd, Treasury Board approved the cost of the addition for Leaf Rapids, and on the 16th of June the Minister advised them that the project had been approved.

The Public Schools Finance Board on October 2nd , indicated that tenders had been accepted, and on October 9th the Leaf Rapids School Board indicated to Malcolm Construction that it was the successful bidder. The contract was signed on November 10th, Mr. Speaker, and December 22nd, Sherritt Gordon, it would be laying off about 400 workers. Now, what has happened here, Mr. Speaker, is that the previous government approved the project, the previous government began building the school, the previous government signed the terms of the contract -(Interjection)- No you didn't lay off the 400workers - but, Mr.

Speaker, what did happen is that this government was committed to an expenditure of $1.2 million by November 17 when we took office. In other words, regardless of the amount of construction that had taken place, the commitments to the contractor under the terms of the agreement required us to pay out half of the amount of money that the addition would require in total and we would have absolutely nothing to show for it, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, there are a couple of things that occur to me.

One is that the Minister indi­ cates that because when she took office there was a certain recommendation and a certain status in place, that nothing has changed. In view of the fact that five weeks after the contract was begun, Sherritt Gordon did lay off 400 people and did announce that there was an intention not to bring their staff up to full complement again in future, was there not a further recommendation from her staff ... MR. SPEAKER: If the member h as a question, would

15 March, 1982 he proceed with it please? MR. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that these things did happen after she took office, was there not a further recommendation from her staff to deal with a changed situation in the potential school population in Leaf Rapids? MRS. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, there was an additional recommendation from staff and the recom­ mendation was that, in light of the fact that we were already committed and had spent $1.2 million with absolutely nothing to show for it that we continue with the project, because in spite of the fact that there were layoffs, in spite of the fact that there were going to be less children, they did badly need additional class­ rooms for children who were being housed in porta­ bles behind the school. Those were needed then, they are still needed now and the recommendation was to proceed with the project MR. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, I think the Minister is changing her position on it because that's a little dif­ ferent than what she said. On the other hand, Mr. Speaker, does the report take into account the operating costs over the next 50 years of that building being in place in view of the high energy costs in Leai Rapids? Do the operating costs have anything to do with the Minister's decision? MRS. HEMPHILL: It was the former government that designed the building. I certainly hope that they took into consideration reducing energy costs as much as possible. MR.

FILMON: I'm sure the energy costs were taken into account when there was an opportunity for peo­ ple to be in the building but that situation has changed. Mr. Speaker, I have another question for the Minis­ ter. I believe today is the deadline for setting the foun­ dation levy rates and municipalities across the prov­ ince will be interested in knowing what they are. Can the Minister now share with the House and the people of Manitoba what those foundation levy rates will be for municipalities? MRS. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I can.

I have been informed by the public schools' finance board that they have given notice today to municipalities that the rates of levies required to raise the $167,247,132 needed this year for the Educational Support Levy will be 41.2 mills on farm and residential balanced assessment and 79.2 mills on other bal­ anced assessment. This is an increase in the Educa­ tion Support Levy of 4.2 mills, Mr. Speaker.

This maintains the traditional split in the Education Support Program revenues at roughly 65 percent general revenues and 35 percent from the Education Support Levy, exactly the same proportion as was in place with the former government, Mr. Speaker. I would also add that as previously announced we placed an additional $12.4 million in supplemental grants to offset disadvantaged divisions faced by dif­ ficulties because of low assessment and low spending due to weaknesses that were established and that were communicated to us clearly about the existing Educational Support Program that they had put into law, Mr.

Speaker. This special program is going to have a significant benefit in offsetting special levy mill increases in all of those divisions, in fact, in all divisions since all divi­ sions receive some of the supplemental money but those divisions who need it the most, who were the most disadvantaged and who would have the highest mill rate increase, are receiving the most help, Mr. Speaker. 375 I would also add that the total direct provincial con­ tribution to education this year will be 54.4 percent of estimated school board expenditures, up from 53.3 percent of last year, Mr. Speaker. MR. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister now con­ firm that as a result of some of the shifting that she has done to reduce the impact of increases on a selected number of school divisions, which she said were inequitably treated by last year's improvements to education financing by our government, that limited number of divisions which just by sheer coincidence in almost all cases, happens to be represented by a New Democratic member in this House, that in order to .. . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. Would the Honourable Member for Tuxedo complete his question? MR. FILM ON: Mr.

Speaker, just for the further amuse­ ment of my friends opposite, I can add that they were not all represented by New Democrats last time around, so the IOUs are coming in as we predicted a long time ago. Can the Minister now confirm that as a result of her efforts to rectify what she says was an inequitable situation for a half-dozen-or-so divisions, almost all the divisions in this province will have increases in not only their foundation levy but in their special levy for school purposes in order to pay for this extra little bit of fudging around to help out her friends,

whereas last year only five divisions in the whole province had an increase. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Munici­ pal Affairs. MR. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, last week the Member for Roblin-Russell asked a question in regard to the water supply for the Town of Gilbert Plains. I'd like to inform the honourable member that the Water Services Board engineers' report that the water supply for the town is holding and there are no problems. Its staff are continuing to monitor the situation and are prepared to implement emergency services to augment the supply if warranted.

I hope that answers the honourable member's question. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin­ Russell. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin-Russell): Mr. Speaker, I thank the Honourable Minister. I think

that's the third Minister now that's advised me that Gilbert Plains has been looked after. I was advised by the Minister of Natural Resources in committee the other day and on Friday the Minister of Agriculture assured me and the people of Gilbert Plains, that the water supply was under control. May I ask the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs a question?

I wonder, can the Minister advise the House if he or any of his Department of Co-op Development have met with the 25 employees that are employed at Rossburn and Pilot Mound cheese plants or with the management of those, since I raised the question last week? MR. ADAM: No, Mr. Speaker. We know that Manco has had a problem in selling cheese and they had to close down four plants and subsequently had opened two.

Some of the Board members have met with the Minister of Agriculture, I understand, but none of the Board members have requested a meeting with the Minister of Co-operative Development up to this point in time. MR. SPEAKER: The time for oral questions having expired. Orders of the Day. The Honourable Govern­ ment House Leader. Pardon me, does the Honourable Member for Brandon West have a point of order? ORDERS OF THE DA Y NON-POLITICAL STATEMENT HON. HENRY N. CARROLL (Brandon West): I would like to make a non-political statement if this time could be allotted me. MR.

SPEAKER: Does the member have leave to make such a statement? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. CARROLL: Mr. Speaker, as all of Canada must be aware, Brandon hosted a very successful Brier this past week. I would like to congratulate the Al Hackner rink from Northern Ontario, and I would like to read a tribute - this is a letter - from Paul Patten of the Toronto Globe and Mail who attended at Brandon: "You know us, right. We're the city slickers from Eastern Canada, the fat cats with all the money, but when it comes to staging something like a Labatt Brier you put us to shame.

You have 38.000 people in Bran­ don, we have two-and-one-half million in Toronto; but you've just put on the most successful Brier in the SO-year history of the event. You fill your Arena to overflowing, even when your Manitoba team has a bye. We couldn't stage a Brier in Toronto if our lives depended on it; we're too highbrow, we're too sophis­ ticated, we have a football team that can't win, a hockey club that's even worse, a baseball team that has been in last place since the day it was born. But here in Brandon you are champions, a city of winners.

Your hospitality is overwhelming, your friendliness is contagious, your generosity is unlimited; you are a fun city. You have had the figure skating, and the Memorial Cup, and the Canada Winter Games and made a success of them all. You have a sports com­ plex here that we can't match in Toronto. Hats off, 376 Brandon, you've given us a hell of a week to remember. " MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West forgot to point out that in the game of politics they're two for two. As I announced, Mr.

Speaker, on Friday, the government bills are to be put over until Wednesday for further debate. I would move, seconded by the Honourable Minis­ ter of Finance, that, Mr. Speaker, do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honour­ able Member for Flin Flon in the Chair. INTERIM SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN, Jerry T. Storie (Flin Flon): The meeting will come to order.

BE IT RESOLVED THAT a sum not exceeding $794,23 6, 590, being 30 percent of the amount of the several items to be voted for departments, as set forth in the Main Estimates for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1983, laid before the House at the present Session of the Legislature, be granted to Her Majesty for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1983. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MR. PENNER: It will now be in order to continue with Estimates with the Natural Resources in 255 and with Community Services in the House. (Agreed) MR. ENNS: We would be prepared, Mr.

Chairman, if the Honourable House Leader would like to see it happen this way, to move the bill for Ways and Means to First Reading and adjourn it, and indeed to advance to Second Reading and take the adjournment on Second Reading; that would enable us then to proceed. MR. A. ANSTETT (Springfield): Mr. Chairman, to the point of order raised by the Member for Lakeside. I certainly appreciate the generosity of the Opposition in accommodating the Interim Supply this way. How­ ever, we are faced with an anomaly in that the rules do not permit the House to go back into Committee of Supply twice at one sitting.

So if we rise to consider Ways and Means, First Reading, Second Reading on the Interim Supply Bill and do that in 5 minutes, we then have no further business and cannot go back into Supply. If the Opposition at that point wants to break that precedent and go into Supply twice, per­ haps we can consider that. MR. ENNS: I want the afternoon off, my calves are coming at the farm and I thought we could cut it off by five minutes.

Monday, 15 March, 1982 MR. CHAIRMAN: I gather that it is the con census that we will stay in split Committees? (Agreed) CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - NATURAL RESOURCES MR. CHAIRMAN, Andy Anstett (Springfield): Com­ mittee come to order please. We are considering the Estimates for the Department of Natural Resources, Resolution No. 104, page 95 in your Estimates book, Item 4.(b)(

I) Salaries - $345,600.00. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: I recall that this is an area that has expe­ rienced increasing pressure on the department, both in terms of policy decision to be made, and I suspect we'll be talking about that perhaps - well we can do that under any one of these items - but more specifi­ cally to the line now under discussion, Salaries. There was a problem, and probably in the eyes of the Admin­ istration will continue to be a problem, in terms of sufficient staff to cope with the backlog of applica­ tions for water licenses in the province.

I appreciate there are two distinct problems here; one is having the capability of sufficient information about our ground water supplies to enable the branch to issue licenses, but my recollection of the department's concern also involved the sufficient manpower staffing problems to handle the number of requests currently before their departments and additional ones that the department may expect to receive, particularly should we have another dry spring, another dry summer. My question, Mr.

Chairman, through you to the Minister, is the salaries reflect some increase here - $287 to $345, print-over-print - whether or not this allows for some additional staffing in this area? MR. CHAIRMAN, Harry M. Harapiak (The Pas): Mr. Minister. HON. AL MACKLING (St. James): Yes, Mr. Chair­ man, to the honourable member, this is an area where there is two additional staff, one senior engineer and one working engineer. While I have the floor, perhaps I could also answer a couple of questions that were asked the other day.

I'm sorry he isn't here now but one honourable member asked me about reports on the flood forecast commit­ tee, and Mr. Weber advised me the past practice - I don't know whether it's laid down by regulation or just convention - but the past practice was to report to the House the third week in February or the third week in March and then, as required, depending on conditions.

In respect to one other area of question, I was asked about periodicals and I did indicate there was a list of periodicals published under Natural Resources port­ folio and I have an extensive number of the leaflets here if anyone is interested in seeing them.

It's been rather an ambitious program over the course of years and the leaflets, I haven't gone through them, but they are attractive and I'm sure helpful from the point of view of educating, not only our own residents but tourists in respect to ongoing programs, in respect to natural resources particularly interesting from a tour­ ist point of view, in respect to wildlife resources and 377 so on. I don't know if there's anything further I want to add on that. There was a request for a listing of the leaflets and I have copies of that for any member that wants it right here. That's all, Mr. Chairman. MR.

ENNS: Mr. Chairman, it would be our intention from the Opposition to discuss some of the basic issues involved with the Water Resources Branch, which perhaps could be discussed under the next three headings: Water Licensing, Water Management, Water Investigation, Regional Management; all, I pre­ sume from my experience, having to do with policy setting, management practices of the branch with respect to wate. We can have a discussion on these items; they can then move forward and perhaps our next stop would be on the Conservation District Authority. Mr.

Chairman, I would like to open the discussion by referring to the review of Ground Water Manage­ ment in Manitoba study that was undertaken by the Manitoba Water Commission which you, Sir, tabled in the House just a few days ago. I would particularly like to refer to the number of recommendations that are contained on Page 9 which, in the view of the Manitoba Water Commission, spell out some specific steps that the branch, the depart­ ment of the government, are to undertake.

It talks very strongly about the need and the necessity for a fairly complete and total revision of the various pieces of legislation that govern the licensing, the use of water in Manitoba.

I refer the Minister to some of these specific recommendations: for instance, that the Act should have adequate strength to ensure proper management of our ground water resources; water licenses should run with the land, should not be trans­ ferred separately from title of the land - that is a very basic policy decision which we would be interested to hear this Minister's views on - the terms of a water license should be increased from 5 to 15 years. Mr.

Chairman, this comes about as a very natural request from those who are engaged in pretty exten­ sive, sophisticated and expensive equipment and now involved in the business of irrigation for many rea­ sons, not least of them simply bankable security. The requirement for having access to water for a longer period of five years, I think, is evident to most people that have some appreciation of the kind of investment a substantial irrigation operation requires.

The recom­ mendation by the Manitoba Water Commission to increase the term of the licenses from 5 to 15 years, to have the water rights run with the land, rather than separate from the title, are two very significant recommendations and I would invite the Minister to discuss those with us, in terms of his attitude towards these two very specific recommendations of the Commission. A policy for the management of ground water should be enshrined within

an Act or the regulations. That's something we have talked about in the past, has been set back because it was felt that a group, such as the Manitoba Water Commission, s-hould in fact investigate the situation prior to any legislative action taken. The Act should define the responsibilities of the Water Resources Branch of the Department of Natu-

Monday, 15 March, 1982 ral Resources in relation to good water quality. Well, Mr. Chairman, I know some of my colleagues will have more specific questions coming out of this report. There are two significant aspects of this report; one very specific recommendation as to future policy on the part of the department. It then also indicates - it takes, I don't think, an overly critical look at the department, but it does point out some of the weaknesses within the department in terms of past practice.

I'm sure your Administrators will tell you possibly none that couldn't be corrected with more staff, more money, more dedication to that area. But I read the one recommendation or the one critic, if you like, from this report that says that, "The present organiza­ tion of the Water Resource Branch should be reviewed to improve internal relationships between the licens­ ing

section and the

section responsible for water management as a whole. It is the impression of the Commission, as a result of our review, that there is a need for improved co-ordination and co-operation within the branch. It is our opinion that this results from the present vertically integrated system." I don't know whether this is a fair question to put to the Minister at this time, but his chief adviser is sitting beside him and perhaps through him, through you, Mr. Chairman. I invite the Minister to comment on that.

It also indicates that a committee should be set up to work with the Water Resources Branch and that the committee should include representatives from the various organizations, such as. the Well Drillers' Association, the lrrigators' Association, the Union of Manitoba Municipalities, Environmental Management Division of the Department of Consumer and Corpo­ rate Affairs and Environment and Manitoba Water Commission. This committee should be established for a limited time and then disbanded.

It also recommends that staffing of the Water Resources Branch should be reviewed to ensure that adequate human resources are available to carry out the additional burden of implementing the required program. There has been one consistent complaint through the branch, certainly during the period of time that I was privileged to be responsible for the department and I'm sure to some extent it still exists, and that is the length of time it takes for the department to respond to requests. There are other specific recom­ mendations that indicate that time should be cut down considerably.

Now, again, that probably refers to staffing problems. Mr. Speaker. I would certainly invite the Minister to, if he has had an opportunity to familiarize himself with, firstly, with the report that I'm referring to -that is the report dated September, 1981, by the Manitoba Water Commission - on our ground water problems. I know that the Minister has some knowledge of this, he took time, and we listened with interest to his speech in the Throne Speech Debate, to allude to the report and to give us some idea. even if only in general terms at this time, as to what kind of priority he att­ aches to this report.

Is he prepared, for instance, to move this Session with revised legislation dealing with this matter and, if he can, can he indicate to us his government's feelings with respect to some of the 378 very specific recommendations that I alluded to, namely, the tenure question, the question of water rights running with the land. MR. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I thank the honourable member for his observations.

Certainly the department is reacting to this report and there will be proposals coming forward to the government and then, hopefully, at this Session, to the Legislature, dealing with matters that fall under the recommenda­ tions in this report. So, the report is a very useful one. It does confirm the importance of action in this area and action will be taken. In respect to some of the specifics in the report. I would have to give some general response at this time because the specific decisions in respect to imple­ mentation of programs have not been worked through the processes yet.

So, I can only indicate my personal attitude at this time since I haven't run through my colleagues in Cabinet or through the Legislature, the proposals. But, in respect to the recommendations that are made here. certainly we do want to streng­ then the department in order to deal with the more adequate licensing of ground-water resources and as the Budget indicates, two additional staff have been provided in the department for that purpose.

In respect to the recommendation that the licenses run with the land, certainly that makes good sense, that the water resource not be dealt with separate and apart from the user or the owner of the surface rights. We certainly wouldn't want to see water rights sublet out from the land, and that recommendation, there­ fore, seems to make good sense. In respect to the length of the water license again I think, given the fact that, as the honourable member has pointed out. those users of ground water who are implementing irrigation systems. are looking at pretty expensive devices.

I would think it makes abundant good sense that the licence period be for a sufficient period of years and I don't know if 15 is the magic number, but certainly it needs to be more than five. Now, in respect to the rest of the recommendations, I think I'm merely am in a position now to generalize that this is a very important resource that we have and we're bound to take better inventory and ensure that our resource is not being polluted, that it is being safeguarded and used adequately.

One of the things that's not mentioned in this report and that I've asked my department to deal with, is the relationship of surface and ground water so that we have a thorough understanding as to what is happen­ ing with our aquifers. how they're being replenished, if at all, and in what manner. and what aquifers there­ fore are in greater difficulty than others.

It's a very important area and it's going to take more time and, I don't know whether we have all the staff we require, I'm not knowledgeable yet as to the demand load on existing staff, but we will be acting on these recom­ mendations and we're very concerned to ensure the protection of this most valuable resource. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, further to my colleague's questions regarding some of the

recommendations in the book here, I have a concern that I would like to bring to the Minister's attention.

For example, under the recommendation where water licenses should run with the land and should not be transferred separately, I would like to pursue the area of how licencing takes place because if this recom­ mendation were implemented, for example, it would be a very choosy thing or I'd be very concerned that certain individuals would get a license to irrigate, the neighbour would not, and with the transfer going with the land that certain individual's properties are going to be enhanced dramatically over somebody else's in terms of transfer.

The licensing procedure itself is something that I wonder if the Minister could clarify because there's going to be added pressure.

For example, if my neighbor wants to set up an irrigation system, expen­ sive as it may be, what is the procedure, for example, for the people in the area that have drilled wells, dug wells, all these things can be affected by how the licensing procedure progresses; and possibly the Minister could enlighten us so that we can tell our people when they are talking about the irrigation sys­ tem what they can expect in terms of requirements; and how does one individual get a license and the next one gets rejected. MR. MACKLING: Well, Mr.

Chairman, that's all part of the work that has to be done and that's part of the Act and the regulations to be brought forward and there will have to be techniques in place ensure that everyone is treated fairly, in respect to a reasonable use of ground water supplies. I am sure that within those regulations there will be provision for domestic use that may not require licensing, I don't know.

But where it's an irrigation or commercial use, an exten­ sive use of ground water, then there will be standards set up and there will be, I am sure, a determination made as to what quantities of water are available; and in the event that there is a reduction in water in the aquifer and the supply, how that reduction will be apportioned among users. It's complicated, it's going to take some work, but I think with goodwill we'll come up with what will be reasonable and fair to all concerned, to all users. MR. DREIDGER: The concern that I have is exactly where would the level of usage be established?

This could be from somebody that has, let's say, a livestock operation, maybe 200 head of livestock, or is it 100 head or is it 50 head, or is it somebody that's irrigating his crops. The area of exactly how this will be estab­ lished is going to be quite dramatic; or maybe, if the government should so desire, or the Minister, any well that is drilled, dug, whatever the case may be, is this going to require a license?

You know, this thing can be carried to quite an extent and this is why it is important to sort of get the Minister's feeling as to how he's going to handle this thing. -(lnterjection)­ That's what I'm concerned about. MR. MACKLING: Well, Mr. Chairman, that's exactly what I wouldn't want to do, is cut the honourable member's water off. No, as I indicated, I think that individual water wells for domestic use, I wouldn't anticipate that what we would agree to, as a government 379 or in this Assembly, would require every individual who takes water from underground by way of well to have a license.

However, that's not to say we wouldn't want the well drillers to completely advise the Department as to the nature of their findings; what level they found fresh water, what quality it was and so on, to improve our knowledge as to the aquifers that are known to us and how those aquifers are respond­ ing to use. But in respect to the commercial agricul­ ture, if I can use that, again we will have to determine licenses and license quantities on the basis of what the aquifer's potential for delivery is, and then in accordance with priority of application too, I assume.

I can't, at this time, indicate to you that a certain aquifer is relatively unlimited and we can give carte blanche to anyone who wants to irrigate; can't do that. What we do have to do is evaluate adequately what our resources are and determine how much can be drawn out of each aquifer without endangering its continuity. MR. CHAIRMAN: Member for Morris. MR. CLAYTON MANNESS (Morris): Yes. So that I might understand better where we are now, I wonder if I could avail upon the Minister to indicate what the present licensing procedures are at this time? MR. MACKLING: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I am advised at the present time there is a licensing procedure. It's perhaps more cumbersome than what it could be because tests on the wells have to be made and a report given. Then there's a determination as to the effect on adjacent well users if any, for any major use and if it appears that there is no difficulty, then a license is granted. MR. MANNESS: This decision, is it made final by the Minister or by some licensing board? Who makes these decisions? MR.

MACKLING: I haven't seen one of the decisions yet so presumably I haven't used any political influ­ ence, if that's what the Minister is interested in. MR. MANNESS: Well, I'm just curious as to who makes the decisions. MR. MACKLING: The question again was? MR. MANNESS: I'm wondering who makes the deci­ sion as to whether one is granted a license or not. MR. MACKLING: Someone in the department pre­ sumably has been making those decisions on behalf of the Minister. MR. MANNESS: Specifically who, if I may ask? His name starts with "W. " MR.

MACKLING: Yes, I think the hon ourable member is right and it hasn't changed, it's Mr. Weber. Individ­ ual applications can be sent to me if the honou rable member has one. MR. MANNESS: Now as far as water licensing, is this

decision based not only on groundwater requests but also on river requests for drawing from rivers? MR. MACKLING: Yes, we have dealt with both groundwater and river water applications in the past. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(b)(1) - the Member for Roblin­ Russell. MR. MCKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, I have a couple of questions for the Minister. I never was very closely related to irrigation until this first project in the prov­ ince of irrigation using the effluent in Roblin which came on stream last year, so I got involved fairly quick and there's a lot of questions that have been raised.

Also, we've had correspondence cross my desk from the Assocation of lrrigators in Manitoba who invited me to attend a Brandon seminar here in early Febru­ ary unfortunately I couldn't go but they raised a lot of interesting questions and some of course are spelled out in the report of the committee. But I'm wondering if maybe the time isn't here for us to review the whole Act and the whole structure of the Water Resources Branch because of the number of these irrigation projects that are coming on stream and likely more will come on stream.

The matters that have been raised by other members, the Member for Lakeside and the Member for Emerson, are questions that are certainly valid at this time because there seems to be more and more concerns raised by peo­ ple that are using the system. I understand there is quite a backlog of applications that need to be cleared up in the department by the irrigators who haven't received a water license, and maybe there is a reason or reasons why they haven't.

They also suggest to me, a number of knowledgeable people in the field, that enough information already exists to formulate a pretty strong allocation policy by the department. There was another recommendation that was drawn to my attention and they feel that maybe the adminis­ tration should be moved to a local level or a local administration administered by the department but moved out locally so there isn't so much length of time and paperwork involved or phone calls in getting information.

So I'm certainly agreeable to some of the comments of the Minister, he said our objective is for certainly a long-term water management policy. But there are a lot of questions that have been raised in the field at this time and I think it's very timely for us to deal with them by the Committee and the Minister. MR. MACKLING: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the honour­ able member's concerns were earlier enunciated by the Honourable Member for Lakeside and in answer to his questions I did indicate that staff are currently involved in preparation of recommendations, includ­ ing specific recommendations arising out of this report, but recommendations that had predated this report, that had been with the department for some years, Mr. Weber advises me. But there wasn't the great importance, there didn't seem to be the concern of gov ernment for sometime in this area so very little has been done about it.

But it is timely now, the Water Commission's Report has highlighted that and we are going to be moving on it. 380 In respect to the suggestion that perhaps control ought to be more locally based, I think it's important that control be with the province because, I am sure, these aquifers extend beyond local limits and there might be problems sorting out priorities if it were left to local government. I understand, by my advice through my Deputy, that the Province of Saskatche­ wan tried that and it was a mess.

So we can learn from the pluses. the good programs of our neighbouring jurisdiction, and we can learn from their mistakes too. This is one in which it appears that provincial control and programming of licensing is warranted and should be pursued. MR. McKENZIE: I wonder, can the Minister advise, was any of his staff at that Irrigation day meeting in Brandon or was it all agriculture and, if they were there, did they give them any assurances of some of the changes they have been asking for? MR. MACKLING: Well, Mr. Chairman, Mr.

Weber was there but, of course, he can't commit government to policy decisions, but I'm sure that he indicated his concern in respect to further development in this area. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, perhaps with the help of staff the Minister could indicate to us the number of licenses currently issued, in general terms; and also if the department is aware of any substantial number of unlicensed operations occurring in the province.

My understanding of it is - and the Minister can confirm it - I'm differentiating between the two types of users, the domestic user, the residential farm user - which I believe requires just a simple permit. I think, the department correctly wants to be informed of wells being put in place for residential use but does not really require the licensing process.

What we are talk­ ing about here are the more substantive users of ground water or surface water for irrigation purposes that are subject to the current, inadequate as it may be, licensing procedure, and could the Minister give us some indication of the number of licenses that are currently out in the province; and the second ques­ tion, whether or not the department is aware of the degree of unlicensed operators taking ground water, surface water? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I would have to ask Mr.

Weber to make somewhat of an educated guess in respect to that if you really had to have the informa­ tion now and we could move on with the Estimates. I think that I could take it as notice and give greater specific to that question. We may not have the exact numbers but I think we can do better with it if Mr. Weber gets a chance to get some people to add up some numbers. MR.

ENNS: In addition to that same series of ques­ tions, we would appreciate, before the Estimates con­ clude, perhaps another day towards the end when we deal with the Minister's Salary, some of this informa­ tion could be made available to us for our purposes. The other part of that question is the number of appli-

cations for licenses to draw down water, either from surface, rivers, reservoirs, and/or ground water appli­ catio ns. I appreciate that that was a growing list dur­ ing my tenure of office and I suspect that list, if any­ thing, will continue to expand. Mr. Chairma n, more specifically, I would ask the Honourable Minister to give us some idea about the situation in two specific areas along the Assiniboine River, the Portage Plai ns area where fairly extensive use of irrigat ion is used drawing on the available waters from the Assiniboine.

My question there is the capacity of the Assiniboine to continue the existing licensed operators and, more specifically, the possi­ bility and it is my hope - it was certainly my intent ion when it was my responsibility - to enable a diversion to occur from the Assiniboine to the La Salle to alle­ viate the growing demands for water user of all types along the La Salle River, both for commercial irriga­ tion purposes and simply for domestic water use, mun icipal water use. Several mun icipalities in Cartier, R.M. of MacDonald, rely on the La Salle for water.

I know the Honourable Member for Morris is particu­ larly sensitive to these requests and while I appreciate that the question as to whether or not a specific pro­ ject, such as the proposed diversion of waters from the Assiniboine to the La Salle, may not be properly discussed at this time and would come under the final resolution deali ng with the Acquisition and Construc­ tion of Physical Assets. But my question now is, to the Minister, has the Assiniboine the capacity to allow for a diversion that was contemplated? I certainly invite the Minister to indicate whether or not that project is still on stream. MR.

MACKLING: Mr. Chairma n, yes, the departmen­ tal staff have been looki ng at that question of the capacity and I thi nk the capacity is still there and we'll be looki ng further at that possible diversio n, it cer­ tainly is something that's still under active review and I will be getting recommendations in respect to that later. MR. ENNS: I suppose it's that termin ology of "active review" that bothers me and the Honourable Member for Morris.

I can assure the Honourable Minister that a number of people, I may add including an illustrious former colleague of his by the name of Joe Borowski, is looki ng in anticipation of seeing that additional waters to be compl emented to the La Salle River. Now, I don't kn ow what precise standi ng the Honour­ able Minister has with Mr. Borowski these days, although I do recall him accomp anying him in court during his days of trial and difficulties.

But I would expect that the present Minister will continue to show consideration for him and others on the La Salle River, that we're led to believe and certainly encour­ aged by the forward looking and progressive previous Minister of Natural Resources that this was about to occur, that the necessary engineering studies ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Kovnats on a point of order. MR. KOVNATS: I would like the name of the Honour­ able Member for Niakwa included in the members interested in the diversion from the Assiniboine into the La Salle. 381 MR.

ENNS: I accept that inclusion, although gener­ ally I'm a little more fussy about who I include among my Mr. Chairma n, seriously, the point that I'm trying to make is that certainly I would have to consider it and would certainly so view it, a reversal of policy if you like, and of course it's certai nly up to the Minister and this government to reverse that policy inasmuch that the project hasn't been proceeded with. But the Minis­ ter upon investigating the matter will determine that very extensive surveyi ng, engineering and there was a fair amou nt of work that had to be done.

There were a number of questions raised, a number of concerns expressed about the compatibility of proceedi ng with that project and we are certai nly not recomm ending it at the detriment of the curre nt Assiniboine users.

But the information that was at hand at that time led us to believe that a diversion of some substance could take place - the capacity of the Assiniboine provided that - and of course should the capacity of the Assi­ niboine be increased in the future as we want to dis­ cuss perhaps a little further on in the Estimates, then that would seem to be a very natural and a very com­ mon sense application and use of our surface water in that particular area.

I point out that that particular area encompasses some of the finer and more pro­ ductive land suitable for irrigat ion in the provi nce and one that would enhance the agricultural production of this province. MR. MACKLING: Well, Mr. Chairma n, I don't know whether I can do better than what I indicated before and that was that I am advised by the department that proposal or that developme nt has been under consid­ eration. It hasn't reached the stage yet where I can be definitive about it.

It's subject of course to environ­ ment al review and it has to run the gamut of a lot of evaluation before I can indicate that it's "go." That is one possibility. Of course, these things when they involve a change in use of river water will take a fair bit of consideration by staff and by interested people. I can't tell you when that will be completed but it's one of those things that is, as the hon ourable member knows, is in the hopper. How soon it'll come out, or whether it'll come out, in what form, I don't kno w at this stage. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembi na. MR.

DONALD ORCHARD (Pembina): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There was a recently completed study, I think back about almost two years ago now, on the Souris River watershed and area; it was a joint Saskac hewan-M a nit oba study , fed erally­ commissioned, I believe. A number of Manitoba aquifers were identified in that Souris River area, the southwest Manitoba agricultural area. I'd just like to find out how many present active users there are of those aquifers identified in that Souris River study and how many applicatio ns there might be.

The users that I'd like identified are major users, such as ones who would be feeding in a centre pivot irrigation system. MR. MACKLING: Again here, Mr. Chairma n, I think that it would be unf air of me to ask Mr. Weber to give

Monday, 15 March, 1982 me an off-the-cuff answer on that. I'll ask him to give me particulars of it and I'll report later. MR. ORCHARD: That's the kind of information wanted, Mr. Chairman, that's just fine. We do have some aquifer irrigation going on in the province, I think there's some around Carberry. What monitoring methods does the province use now to, I suppose, check on how that kind of use is depleting the level in the aquifer? Is there test wells established close to the withdrawal site? What sorts of procedures are undertaken to monitor the aquifer with heavy usage? MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Chairman, for some time the department has maintained observation wells in the major aquifers - I suppose all the aquifers and does monitor levels and water quality in the aquifers through these wells. I would assume that pursuant to recommendations here, that monitoring will be increased as well. MR. ORCHARD: Would I be correct in assuming that in terms of irrigation use that the Carberry aquifer is probably the most heavily used? MR. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Chairman, it's the heaviest used aquifer, I suppose, in Manitoba. MR.

ORCHARD: Has there been any noticeable reduction in that aquifer level observed in the moni­ toring process? MR. MACKLING: Not as yet. MR. ORCHARD: That must be encouraging to the department to see that that kind of heavy usage hasn't seemed to have affected the level to any significant degree. MR. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Chairman, this is the kind of area that's an evaluation of the aquifer and of course, that's subject I suppose to varying opinion. But it is heartening that the aquifer hasn't seemed to have lost a great deal.

However, again it will largely be determined I guess on weather cycles and a number of factors so I don't want at this stage to get into a technical evaluation as to how much drawdown can occur on an aquifer without it reacting. I don't know whether we're in a position to review that. MR. ORCHARD: Well no, I quite agree, you probably aren't in a position, but there has been let's say some environmental group concern that any major use of an aquifer could be detrimental and bases initial indi­ cations on the Carberry one as a single aquifer.

Cer­ tainly some of the horror stories, I suppose, that emerge from time to time - I'm talking about the Imperial Valley sinking 40 feet and this sort of thing - aren't necessarily transposable to our circumstance in Manitoba.

The Minister indicated earlier on I believe in his Throne Speech remarks, a change, I think, which would be welcome in the - I suppose, call it the philosophical pattern of the Water Resource Branch and the department - away from an empha­ sis on extensive drainage, to one more of conserva- 382 lion which I suppose would envision water storage projects which would contain runoff and would make our available spring runoff, for instance, more avail­ able rather than putting it into Lake Winnipeg as quickly as we can. That's something that the Minister will get substantial support from myself on.

Could the Minister indicate whether there is a requirement of provincial licensing on all retention­ pond structures, small dams, whatever, on all creeks and runs in the province, or are there certain streams that don't require provincial endorsement to establish a small storage pond behind? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, in reverse order, yes, any impoundment of water of stream or drain, there's licensing required.

Going back to the use of aquifers, one of the major thrusts of this Water Commission Report is to ensure that we know what we're doing with aquifer water supply and, although the aquifer that we've been talk­ ing about in the Carberry area is used extensively now and there hasn't been any problem with it, we'll have to determine where we can draw the line, how much we can use in safety and that's one of the big issues, to know water resources and how it can be safely used. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR.

ORCHARD: I take it that from your answer there are no streams regardless of size that can be - like for instance I've got a creek on my farm coming out of the escarpment - I could not with my own resources put a control structure on that creek to back up water for livestock or irrigation water without provincial consent. MR. MACKLING: Yes, that's my understanding. Now, that provincial consent may be very readily obtained or it may be difficult, depending on what happens with the natural flow, how it's used. MR.

ORCHARD: Surely the Department has had requests and applications for installation of dams, or does this go under that broad area where it has been done without knowledge that there was a permission required? But, surely there has been requests and have they been in the majority complied with, or have they been refused in the majority? MR. MACKLING: Up until 1959, Mr.

Chairman, the role of the department was very passive, there had been structures built and there may have been struc­ tures built since then without authority,and of course, I suppose they would be subject to immediate remo­ val if they have no sanction for them. But I would assume that we have had licenses granted for structures. MR. ORCHARD: I guess that's the nub of my ques­ tion.

Would it be easy to determine if the Department has had requests from individuals to construct their own dams on very minor streams - certainly not on the Assiniboine River, but on minor streams, requests by individuals to construct dams to impound water primarily for their own use? Could you make that investigation and provide me with that information as

15 March, 1982 to whether those requests have been made and, if so, how many have been approved and whether any have been turned down? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I can ask Mr. Weber to give us some detail on that because I don't know how extensive that is, but rather than give an off-the­ cuff answer, Mr. Weber can give me the information. MR.

ORCHARD: On a slightly different matter, from time to time projects may surface that for instance the Federal Gove rnment are interested in and let's say the scenario developed where the provincial department found themselves somewhat strapped for capital funds in a given year. What would this Minister and this gove rnment's position be to pursuit of a water­ storage project which would be funded, let's say, by an individual and the Federal Gove rnment without involving Provincial Government dollars? Would you welcome that kind of new investment into the prov­ ince or would there be some resistance to it? MR.

MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that in the past the Federal Gove rnment has been exten­ sively involved through the PFRA in respect to this sort of development. However, it again would have to be licensed by our depar tment because we're con­ cerned about the use of the water supply to make sure it's fair to all, not only the one that wants to use it for, say, a private impoundment for his own operation, but to make sure there's enough left over for the tradi­ tional users of water and that the downstream bene­ fits aren't eroded by the diversion. MR.

ORCHARD: That, of course, would be of prime concern that no one would be disadvantaged by such a proposed undertaking if it were to surface, but I take it and if I might be liberal with the Minister's remarks - as long as there were no adverse effects that could be identified that the impoundment was possibly going to prevent some flood damage in spring runoff time and provide a retention pond, etc., without adverse effects to anyone, that the province might indeed welcome that kind of investment as they have in the past with a number of PFRA projects as the Minister mentioned. MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Chairman, unquestionably my philosophy is, in that way, I believe that if rather than wasting all of the water that rushes off in the spring we can hold some of it back, we have a double advantage; we've reduced the flooding situation downstream and we can retain some of that water for later use.

How­ ever, every factor has to be considered and I'm sure that, despite the rather simplistic philosophy that I have in connection with that, I'm going to get advice that there's a flushing action that is necessary in respect to streams and waterways and you can't remove all of that, and eve rything has to be taken into consideration.

We'll do that, but certainly my philo­ sophy is inclined that way, that rather than seeking to take all the water off the land as quickly as possible, we should be endeavouring to pond it and use it and try and reflect what had been the natural state away back when, because I think no one can deny that what we have done with all of our development is to have taken far more su rface water off the land and rush it away more quickly. I think we have to look at the problem we are creating in doing that. MR.

ORCHARD: Well, I certainly look forward to working with the Minister in furthering his broad phi­ losphy and giving him the kind of support he might need to assure that broad philosophy ends up work­ ing to the benefit of Manitobans, and I'll look forward to that opportunity over the coming months and years, and I only hope he stays in the department long enough to get some of these things done. 383 MR. MACKLING: Thank you. MR. MANNESS: I concur also with my colleague's remarks.

I'd like probably to pose later on in this exercise some detailed questions on the LaSalle River Diversion as were initiated by my colleague from Lakeside, so I don't want it to be recorded that I won't say something on this further on. I'd like to know, though, and I think my colleague from Pembina asked about results from monitoring regarding the aquifer at Carberry. Are there any monitoring results that lead you to be concerned at all about water tables in the area? MR. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I am advised that in the southwest of the province there has been a marked lowering of water tables. MR.

MANNESS: Would this be the basis for your concern as you have suggested on a number of occa­ sions, or do you feel it is just the prudent way to manage this resource? MR. MACKLING: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think it's a combination of both. Common sense indicates that we have been using much more of our surface water, draining it away much more quickly, and the evidence of this study itself shows concern in respect to what's been happening to our water table, and I think then it's a matter of record that we are, over the course of time, reducing our water supply. MR.

MANNESS: One final question in this licensing area, and it's to do with the potential of again, the Assiniboine River, for drawing the surface water from it. Do we have any scale that we can measure the potential for drawing from it and at what point are we on that scale? MR. MACKLING: Well, Mr. Chairman, I am advised that we are in a position to quantify a flow of 500 cfs from the Assiniboine River at Portage la Prairie; a firm supply of 500 cubic feet per second at Por tage la Prairie. MR. MANNESS: For clarification, that is what can be drawn off for irrigation purposes or is that what the flow is? MR.

MACKLING: That's the flow. MR. KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As an authority on water licensing and water management,

Monday, 15 March, 1982 coming from a constituency that the only water comes out of the tap, I do have some questions now that under redistribution and I do represent the area of Niakwa, and I have acquired a floodway, Seine River and Red River which I never had before, so there are some questions that come under this particular item. Can the Honourable Minister advise whether there is any special control of some of the animals that come out of the different water areas, particularly the Seine River, because we've had some problems along there with some skunk population that does come under.

Is there any special control of these animals that come under these waterways? MR. MACKLING: Well, Mr. Chairman, I know there are problems with these animals. As a matter of fact, there was one - and I'm not accusing - this was a real skunk, it wasn't an Opposition politician referring to a member of another party, indicating that either a New Democrat or a Conservative was an odiferous animal. No, this was a beast, he went right across the front of the building here apparently the other night, and I don't know, Mr. Chairman, if there is any way you can adequately control these animals.

They fol­ low the river banks and streams and do find them­ selves into the most unconventional places. We haven't found one in the Chamber yet, but that's because the guards have been watching the doors. The only think we can do in respect to those animals is, if they become a nuisance, then the City staff would be called in, because I don't think that our staff would operate. I am sure they would be available if the city authorities called us in. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Assiniboia. MR.

RURIK (Ric) NORDMAN (Assiniboia): As far as the city is concerned they would come and they would leave us a trap, and then if the skunk got into the trap then they would, in turn come and pick him up, but we would have to set the trap. I had them on my bay two years ago; a whole family of five of them and that's the way we managed to get rid of them. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that we are extremely efficient in this area. We have a program called "Call Us, " a nuisance wildlife control program that some astute politician set up some years ago; I don't know when. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I don't want to presume your duties, but as we get to Page 100, we'll be dealing with Wildlife and we can raise all those questions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for lnkster. MR. DON SCOTT (lnkster): Thank you, Mr. Chair­ man. I have some concerns rising out of the Manitoba Review of Ground Water Management in Manitoba, and in particular there's been some talk of longer­ term leases extending from 5 to 15 years. I have quite strong concerns on this, given that the 15-year period goes beyond, by some degree, minor cyclical changes that we have within our climate.

We have periods of ­ the depression was in the vicinity of 7 to 8 years of particularly dry years. We have much smaller terms; 384 we just had one two years ago; a particularly dry year, and I think that in any consideration that is being brought forward that we have to tone the licenses to these climatic realities of the area in which we live, and which we inhabit.

We now have proposals that have come before the government from an organiza­ tion which I believe is called the Association of I rriga­ tion, or Manitoba lrrigators or some such thing, and they were asking, if my memory serves me correctly, that grants would be given, not according nessarily to the capability of the land but according to the equip­ ment which they installed.

In other words, if they come in and if the area has a capacity to withdraw from a number of different irrigators, perhaps in the area, a combined capacity of 300 or 400 cfs, and one outfit come in and put in a pump which is capable of 150 cfs, we could be in a pretty sad situation in that aquifer, in that region itself.

I would just like to I guess in phrasing a question, if I'm supposed to phrase questions here and I think I am, is that, would you give consideration or in giving consideration to the granting of leases, could we have any assurance that they will not be given according to the installed capacity which the irrigator buys and installs himself but rather on a capacity of the ground water or the surface water in that area. MR.

MACKLING: Well, in respect to the Honourable Member for lnkster's concerns, in respect to the cycles and the length of the leases, I indicated that I wasn't sure whether the period should be 5 or 1 O or what years. I think we'd have to look at that, I think there's an argument to be made for someone who is granted a license to draw ground water for irrigation purposes and that's known to provide a sufficient period of lease time, to provide for retirement on a reasonable depreciation scale of the equipment. What that time is I don't know at this time; we'll have to look at that.

My staff advises me that it's true that weather is cyclical and I think some of the experts indicate that it has a great deal to do with sunspot activity than others and we're in one of those areas now. I'm not so sure just what phase we're in but we are in, I think, one of the drought cycles at the present time and they have historically been about 11 years in length.

In respect to the leases, regardless of the size of the pump or the facility that the lessee might install, the lease would permit a drawdown of water on the basis of the determined capacity of the aquifer and the demands being made collectively on that by lessees. So, even if someone installs a pump that was capable of delivering a great deal more water, he wouldn't be able to draw to the maximum of his equipment if it was deemed, in accordance with an evaluation of all the licenses that was not appropriate.

So, a person could over-equip his well system but we want to be able to ensure that everyone gets their fair share of that ground water. So the lease won't be based on the capacity of the equipment, but on the capacity of the aquifer. MR. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I'm wondering on leases, presently, if the leases are purchasable on the market or if I have a water lease can I sell my lease? MR. MACKLING: I'm advised at the present time

Monday, 15 March, 1982 leases are issued to individuals only and they're non-transferable. MR. SCOTT: I would certainly recommended, Mr. Minister, that system maintain and perpetuate for, if we move to any other sort of system, one can move into gross inequities of one's capacity to be able to draw the water and as just to who ends up owning the water rights in this specific area. Once again referring to the report on their No. 11 recommendation, which is on Page 10, they recom­ mend the establishment of an ad hoe committee and on this ad hoe committee.

I have some concern, and I'll be raising this sort of concern rather frequently, not only in these Estimates but right through, eve­ ryone of the people they are suggesting to be on this ad hoe committee are fairly major consumers of water, and we should be having people, not just con­ sumers and the people who are going to be putting the greatest demand on the system and on the aquif­ ers. representated on the board; there should be representatives of other organizations, there should be perhaps geographers, for example, from the facul­ ties of the universities who can look at the problems we are facing in a much different way than someone who is just looking to draw out certain quantities of water.

We should be looking at getting a better cross­ balance, on any resource committee, because this sort of attitude, if this was perpetuated, and I'm not saying necessarily this would develop here, but it has lead to the gross problems that they have in other jurisdictions in other countries. When you consider the Member for Pembina has already mentioned the Imperial Valley in California, the incredible problems that they're having there, and it's just been a system designed by engineers. It's engineers who do not understand and have not understood the problems that are conversant in the area.

They're not really conversant themselves with those problems and they're still designing more impoundment structures over areas of sandstone and the water just disappears into the ground, once again, instead of being taken forward to their end use. I think it's probably safer in the ground, in those instances, than it is in their end uses. They've taken one of North America's great riv­ ers and it doesn't even reach its mouth anymore; that's the Colorado River.

If I could just recommend a film, and it's accessible in Manitoba through the Department of Geography at the University of Winnipeg, it's called Death of a River and it is something that the Member for Pembina has already referred, that their conditions are not neces­ sarily symbolic of the conditions we have here, they're comparable, but we can learn an awful lot from what has happened in other jurisdictions in the area of water management and, in particular, in irrigation systems.

Just as a point of interest, it might be taken as well as notice, that the Continent of India at one time, or the sub-continent of India was once a very wet area and due to total deforestation of the area it's virtually all semi-arid toward desert now. It's just the misuse of the land through centuries - 10's and 20's of Centur­ ies of time - of the implications that man's use has of the water system itself. 385 Now. are we going to be dealing once again with the possible potential diversion of the Assiniboine into the La Salle River? Will that come up again in the Estimates? MR. MACKLING: Yes, it will. MR.

SCOTT: It'll come up under Capital? Okay, that's fine, I'll discuss that at that point in time then. MR. MACKLING: Let me respond at this time and indicate that I'm advised that item is not included in the Capital and, therefore, if members want to speak extensively on that question they can do that now. Let me, while I have the floor, then respond to some of the concerns of the honourable member to this point in his submission. I do respect the concerns that he has and he reflects a growing and a very objective concern with respect to overuse of water.

When I answered the Honourable Member for Pembina, in connection with ponding and usage of water, I qualified my answer to indicate my concern that whatever ponding takes place, and whatever use takes place, is to be done in an intelli­ gent and appropriate manner so that we don't destroy the continuing use of water downstream, as has been correctly eluded to as being the experience in some areas of this continent and it's an environmental disgrace.

Now, I think maybe I'll leave my comments there and the honourable member wanted to ask further questions about that proposed diversion of water and anyone else who wanted to speak on that's on the list. MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, before I got on to diversion there's one question that I would like to raise to you on the general subject. There is some­ thing that has received next to no recognition to this point in time and it is just starting to be recognized in areas where they are short of water, but just because one has plenty does not mean that one should use without respect and without due respect.

And I would raise the areas of industrial use of water and with the vast use of industrial uses of water does not require potable water. The plants themselves can recycle the vast amount of water that they do use, a vast percen­ tage can be recycled with no problems whatsoever in the facility. All that it requires when the water is free they will just use it and pump it through and run through. The proposed Alcan in the Balmoral area is exactly one of these that will use vast quantities of water.

It does not contaminate the water to a strong degree like a paper mill does, but there are still pollu­ tants introduced into the water and every drop of the water that they are using in that plant can be recycled. I would suggest to the Commission when the licens­ ing is coming up for not only Alcan but also for other areas, the food processers use a tremendous amount of water as well, much of it just used for washing down. There is a gentleman at the University of Manitoba in Food Sciences, his name is Dr. Gallop; he has designed plants.

He's designed plants to be use in other jurisdictions throughout the world where they do not have to add water once the process is started up. For instance, once a pulp mill starts with its initial

Monday, 15 March, 1982 contribution of water to get the system moving just with the water that can be extracted from the wood, instead of being discharged, it doesn't need another cup of water throughout its whole existence as long as the plant continues its operation - so it is uses like this at recycling. division of the water. You take this gentleman. he has taken water and designing water if you wish to the ingredients in the water for use in the Freshwater Institute for Research there where there have specific species of fish and have to have certain chemical balances of water.

The water he takes, regu­ lar tap water in some instances, and water from the Assiniboine in other instances and builds the water to the specifications as needed by the fish. So it shows just how far the technology has evolved in this area and it is somewhere I think we should be given an awful lot of thought. in our food processing plants. in recognition. They just come to you, they tell you they need more water, we are expanding, we are going to need another so many hundred cfs per hour.

It is, I think, very essential that we start coming back to the companies and saying, okay, the water isn't going to be free anymore, the rates and the water aren't going to be so low anymore that it causes you to not even consider the option of recycling. I would cer­ tainly suggest that we move into the direction of requiring industrial uses of water to investigate more seriously and more closely their potential for recycling. Now, I think that you have been moving to the diver­ sion aspect, I think that you have made a wise deci­ sion not to include it in Capital this year.

It would have been impossible to even have contemplated putting it into Capital this year because it would be required to go under the Environmental Assessment Review pro­ cess. If someone thinks that we are going to be able to do an Environmental Assessment Review process in a couple of months time so that it could be accommo­ dated in this year, it would be impossible. MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Chairman, in respect to the items in reverse order, in respect to the possible div­ ersion of Assiniboine water to the La Salle, that is something that will take evaluating and the environ­ mental concerns will be paramount in those reviews. So I quite candidly say that it's just not possible that we can proceed with something very quickly there because environmental concerns do take time and they'll be given all the time that is necessary to satisfy our concerns in respect to them. In respect to the honourable member's concerns about recycling of water, I agree completely.

We are water wasteful and there is no question but that a lot of the major users of water need not use all the water they use, they could have their systems recycled. I know from my personal experience, the limited time I was a member of the Board of Directors of Manitoba Forestry Resources, there was an order by the Federal Government Environment Commission in respect to water quality in the Saskatchewan River a demand that we clean up the effluent.

The result is that you screen out more of the solids, more of the pulp, that is otherwise going downstream and you also salvage a lot of the chemicals, the liquors, that otherwise are dissipated and washed away and just add to the environmental blot in the river. So all of the requirements to improve the efficiency of industry in 386 respect to water recycling isn't negative. There are pluses, there are savings and I think we want to encourage that in industry, not in a heavy-handed way, but in a way that encourages efficiency and lack of waste in respect to our water. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Dauphin. MR.

JOHN PLOHMAN (Dauphin): Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask regarding Regional Management, could the Minister please give us the information on the number of regional managers there are stationed out­ side of Winnipeg in Manitoba? MR. MACKLING: Five persons. MR. PLOHMAN: There are five managers and is that all of the regions that exist? MR. MACKLING: There are five managers, seven regions and two managers look after two regions in the water field. MR. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, could you please give us the information on how many support staff are involved with these managers? MR. MACKLING: I am advised, Mr.

Chairman, that the regional managers don't have staff per se: they employ the services in the region except in the sou­ theast corner of the province because of the extremely heavy load that the regional manager does have some staff and one assistant. MR. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to comment on that then. The north west region, I believe, we have a regional manager in Dauphin stationed there and he has no support staff at this time consist­ ent with what you just said, Mr. Minister.

The people in that area, the people in the Watershed Conservation Distri ct, Turtle River Watershed Conservation Dis­ trict, as well as the municipalities west of Lake Dau­ phin have certainly found that to have an expert in the region has been very helpful. The only thing that they mentioned to me very strongly is that we should pro­ vide them with support staff because they are not being utilized as efficiently as they could be, because they are having to do a lot of clerical work and things that take up their time that could be much better used in doing some planning for the region.

I would like to encourage that we broaden this decentralization pro­ gram and I wonder whether the Minister could com­ ment on decentralization of the management services for us. MR. MACKLING: Well, I am advised that in the par­ ticular area, the western region, there hadn't been someone there for some time and there is a backlog, there's a lot of interest and he is pressed, sorely pressed, in respect to his work activity. But, in respect to staff, this administration is no different than any other administration, we're not going to put any more people involved in unnecessary work.

If there is addi­ tional support required, we'll have to look at that, but we're just not going to hire people unless we have to have them there for that work.

Monday, 15 March, 1982 It may be that we could supply them with additional work aids of some kind that would assist in this and I'm thinking of different recording equipment or someth ing, so they can dictate memoranda or letters, and so on, on the job. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Dauphin. MR. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I would be encouraged if this would be looked into, Mr.

Minister, and I believe that it maybe hasn't been articulated here, but certainly the area west of Lake Dauphin in that area in the Dauphin region, including the Roblin­ Russell constituency and perhaps the Swan River constituency certainly has unique drainage problems and watershed probl ems because of the mountains there, the Duck Mountains, and the Riding Mountain and, also, the Porcupine Mountains further up; and it provides the people there, the municipalities. with some extreme problems regarding drainage and flooding problems and this area should, I believe, receive a great deal of attention in the near future.

I would like to ask, in regard to Water Management - and I'm skipping from (

e) to (

c) here, Mr. Chairman - whether this includes the taking over of natural waterways and designating them as provincial water­ ways? Is that the budget item that would include that kind of work? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, that is the correct item. MR. PLOHMAN: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I would wonder if there are different specifications in their engineering specifications for dealing with water­ ways when they are designated as provincial water­ ways in developing and reconstructing the waterways. MR.

MACKLING: I'm not too familiar with the order of drains yet, but you're talking about natural water­ ways, I understand. MR. PLOHMAN: Yes. Quite often requests are made - Mr. Chairman if I could - requests are made to have certain natural waterways designated as provin­ cial waterways and this carries with it - my under­ standing is - a certain development with it. MR.

MACKLING: I'm advised by my staff that we're very careful about waterways being taken over because once we take them over as a provincial waterway, then all of the financial responsibilities that go with that are the responsibility of the province, so there's a careful screening process in connection with that. I think what you want to know is, what are the determinants when ... MR. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, what I want to know, is there one kind of engineering specs for dealing with these waterways when they're going to be recon­ structed to improve drainage on them, or is there a varying degree of development specifications that can be applied according to the soil types for that particular area? 387 MR. MACKLING: I'm advised, Mr. Chairman, that staff determine the quality or the capacity and desig­ nation of these waterways and they're in first, second, third, fourth degree categories and, I guess, each one is determined on the basis of its position in the sys­ tem, the soil conditions, the whole thing.

MR. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, are the specifica­ tions the same for all regions of the province, whether you're dealing with a class four or five soil up in the Duck Mountain area, or you're dealing with a class one or two in the Red River Valley? MR. MACKLING: I'm advised that it's the physical location of the waterway in the system and it's the same in the whole province. MR. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I'd just like to comment on that, that the Regional Manager in the Dauphin area has told me that he feels that there should be specifications, and I agree with this, for dealing with the kind of soil types that the waterway is located in.

Certainly right now there are hundreds of thousands of dollars being spent on doing over a mile of natural waterway, reconstructing it, it's an elabo­ rate system with landscaped banks and so on and so forth, and it's felt that that money could be spent perhaps better by going with a less elaborate system on some of these waterways and would accomplish more; more miles would be done without developing it in such an elaborate way. I wonder if there's a move to develop specifications for drains that would relate to the soil types? MR. MACKLING: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I'm advised that the drain size - and we're talking now about not natural waterways, but drains - they are related, the works are related to the quality of the soil. MR. PLOHMAN: Yes, I would like to see this for natu­ ral waterways that where reconstruction of natural waterways is taking place that these too would be tied to the soil types. MR. MACKLING: It is my understanding that they are, Mr. Chairman. MR. PLOHMAN: I would like to ask, Mr. Chairman, in dealing with (

f) Conservation Districts, whether the forage program for the Turtle River Conservation Dis­ trict has been approved as requested? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, it's my understand­ ing that the Conservation Board has its budget, and out of its budget it approves or disapproves of particu­ lar projects, including forage and, so that decision isn't made by the Ministry; it's made by the Conserva­ tion District Board. MR. PLOHMAN: The Board went before a hearing, I understand, about a month to two or three weeks ago. All I'm just asking is whether, at that hear ing, the forage program of that Conservation District was approved? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, it is my understand-

Monday, 15 March, 1982 ing that the Conservation Districts programs are reviewed by the Conservation Commission for each district and we don't approve the dollars but the pro­ grams; and it was approved, that Conservation District. MR. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairma n, the grants to conser­ vation districts is part of this approval then under that (f), so it is approved by us obviously through that ... MR. MACKLING: Through the totality of that budget. Yes, you're right. MR. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairma n, could you tell me whether there was a request from the Conservation Districts to include crossing over natural waterways as part of provincial assistance in which the province would share in the assistance of funding crossings over natural waterways? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairma n, my un dersta nding is that application was made and considered by the Dis­ trict Commission, but was disproved because there is no provision for that in the Act at the prese nt time. MR. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairma n, I JUS t wonder whether the Minister would consider that change in the Act regarding crossings over natural waterways.

Has he given any consideration to that? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairma n, I understand that a report was commissioned some time ago and both Highways Departme nt and this Departme nt of Natu­ ral Resources had been working on that matter and a report will be coming forward to me in the near future. MR. PLOHMAN: Okay, Mr. Chairman. I would be very interested in that. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembi na. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairma n, at this point in time I'll defer to my colleague, the Member for Morris, and then come back on the list after him. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Morris. MR. MANNESS: Thank you.

Although the Member for lnk ster seems to be overjoyed at the announce­ ment of the exclusion of the La Salle Diversion from projects this year, I'd like to record my disappoint­ ment and obviously that of my constituents -( Int er­ jection)- and Mr. Borowski also. He phones me about this daily, I might add. However, agai n I want to say that I'll pose more questions on this whole project a little later on. I did ask a question though previously as to the potential for additional irrigat ion along the Assiniboine, and I was told that the flow at this time is 500 cubic feet per second.

I wasn't given an answer as to what part of that is being drawn off presently by irrigation in the summertime. Can you answer that questio n, please? MR. CHAIRMAN: I am not sure if the Minister heard, because of a conversation going on. Could you repeat that. please? 388 MR. MACKLING: I am sorry, I apologize to the member, we were getti ng some instructions as to what we do at the hour of adjour nment, because there is some confusion as to where we go. MR. MANNESS: Mr. Weber must have heard it. MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Chairma n, I am advised, that in respect to the question which I did not hear. but I assume is directed as to what is the available water in the Assiniboine for diversion, say, to the La Salle River. The specifics as to what demands are being made on the Assiniboine right now, we can't give you in exact figures and we'll have to give you particulars on that, but there has been an increase draw down on Assiniboine water. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour is now 4:30 and I would .. MR. MACKLING: We normally don't adjourn now though, do we? What is the will and pleasure .. . MR. CHAIRMAN: We can keep going.

There is no Private Members' Hour, so if you Committee would like to keep going, we could keep going until 5:30. MR. MACKLING: We can keep going until 5:30 and then adjour n, or whatever you want to do. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairma n, if that is the will of the Committee, certainly looking at members opposite from our Caucus, we are prepared to carry on unt il 5: 30. The busi ness at hand is of such importa nce that it should be proceeded with. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Morris. MR. MANNESS: I guess I can't pose my question quite concisely enough.

I was more interested in what portion of that 500 cubic feet per second is being drawn off by surface irrigation at this particular point in time. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. MR. MACKLING: We'll give you that information when we can respond to it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembi na. MR. ORCHARD: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was intrigued, as many were, with the Member for ln k­ ster's remarks on recycli ng, and I believe the Minister indicated quite an interest that he had in recycli ng of water. Was I correct in that assumpt ion? MR. MACKLING: Sorry, I didn't hear the last part of the questio n. MR.

ORCHARD: Was I correct in the assumption that the Minister concurred with the enthusiasm of the Member for lnk ster on recycli ng of water? MR. MACKLING: Yes.

MR. ORCHARD: Well, I guess that would bring up a number of questions. In the Minister's Thr one Speech remarks he identified Manitoba as being quite blessed with, I believe I may be in error in quoting him, but I think it was to the effect that we are blessed with the most abundant supply of fresh water in North Amer­ ica, and that I think all Manitobans view as a resource which could be used to attract industrial users who may have needs for rather substantial volumes of water.

Would the Minister see tha t as an advantage that Manitoba has in attracting potential users of water to the province vis-a-vis the fact that we do have substantial freshwater supplies? MR. MACK LING: Mr. Ch airman, unquestionably that is a benefit to us and tha t's what we want to protect; to make sure that water supply will be available for gen­ erations to come. One of the ways we will protect that is by sound conservation measures.

Rather than merely running water through a plant and discha rg­ ing it into the next available ditch or stream, that where it's demonstrated to be feasible and reasonable to recycle water, it should be recycled rather than just run through and discharged in a contaminated form. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4. (b) (I) -the Member for Pembina. MR. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, we've got two words there, which to politicians can mean quite a depth and breadth of

interpretation. Like what is rea­ sonable and economic may mean somet hing to me and something entirely different to the big fellow. Could the Minister be a little more specific, and I'll give him an example to be more specific with.

If Mani­ toba were chosen to be a semi-finalist in a decision by a firm to locate an industry, and saying that water was one of the resources which attracted that industry to Manitoba, if the other semi-finalist jurisdiction in that competition were equally as anxious to have that industrial user come to their jurisdiction, and the dif­ ference were that the economics that may be required to recycle water would make his plans not as efficient in Manitoba and he chose to locate elsewhere.

Would that be the kind of reasonable circumstance which the Minister would consider to allow a user to come to the province and not go somewhere else? MR. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Ch airman, let me indicate that I think in any industrial development that we have to weigh carefully the environmental aspect of that development, and if in fact the weight that we give to the protection of our environment discourages indus­ trial development, th at's a price we have to look at and we have to look at that very carefully.

I, for one, reflect for example on and I indicated this in my remarks during the Throne Spee ch, for a very very long time the conventional wisdom was tha t it was too expen­ sive to recover the mercury from the Dryden Pulp Mill, much simpler to just let it go. You know, no one seemed to care. Well, the cost efficiencies were there; the mercury was relatively cheap to buy at that time and the wastage wasn't all that great in dollars, so let it go. We know what the price is to our environment, an incalculable amount of cost.

If it is possible to remove those heavy metals from our water system, so that is the kind of calculation we have to make. We can't just say, you know, another jurisdiction is going to let the plant go, so we've got to do the same, and when someone wants to build a bigger, higher smokesta ck, and says, well, look, we won't dump the sulphur, we won't dump the heavy metal in your backyard, it will go somewhere else. We'll have to take a second look at that and say, is that neigh bourly? Is that right in our time that we should do that or is there a better system? Is there a way in which these things can be changed?

Now changes have been forced in other environ­ ments. I am pleased to tell you tha t for 100 years it wasn't possible to catch salmon in the Th ames River in England - any fish they were just polluted little creatures. -(I nterjection)- Yes, that's fact, but the y've taken some tough environmental decisions in England. Th ey're tough because they have a cost to them, an industrial cost, but they apparently are suc­ ceeding because the Tham es River quality is improved to the extent now where salmon are being caught in that river - haven't been for many many years.

I can tell you also that in Japan, which prides itself on its industry and its industrial efficiency, tough environ­ mental decisions have been taken with the result that there has been a vast improvement in their environ­ ment in the last decade. Now, it's true that we have to face up to these tough decisions and the large corporations are going to say to us, if you want jobs, if you want plant, if you want industry, you do it on our terms, and those are going to be some tough questions we face.

I'm not referring to any specific company, I'm talking about industry generally and the decisions we make reflect not on our own personal well-being, but on the well-being and the quality of life for tho se who come after us. So we're not, I hope, going to make decisions lightly in this area. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, Andy Anstett (Spring­ field): The Honourable Member for Pembina. 389 MR. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I think we got a little divergent on the subject.

I understood the Member for lnkster to be referring to the recycling of water, not from the standpoint of the environment, but rather from the standpoint of the supply of water. There has never been and I don't think there is a question. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for lnkster. MR. SCOTT: I think there has been some misinter­ pretation by the Member for Pembina. The considera­ tions are a twofold; supply - in the south the Minister in his Speech from the Throne indicated us of having a bountiful supply of water in Manitoba that is not evenly distributed throughout the Province of