Manitoba Hansard — 24 July 2002 (Sitting 70, 37th Legislature, 3rd Session)

37-3-70

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LII No. 70- 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, July 24, 2002

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMJAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HA WRANIK, Gerald HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNJSSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKJ, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MURRAY, Stuart NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott, Hon. STEFANSON, Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosano, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Lac du Bonnet Gimli Point Douglas Flin flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La V erendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carrnan Assiniboia fort Rouge Wellington Ross mere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. ND .P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

3741 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, July 24,2002 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Universities Property Tax Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Smith), I have reviewed the petition and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Clerk, please read. Madam Clerk (Patricia Cha ychuk): On Janu ary 11, 2002, the Government of Manitoba announced a five-year phased-in property tax plan for four of the province's universities.

The Government of Manitoba's plan shifts the universities' property tax bill directly onto the taxpayers of Winnipeg and Brandon. The cost to the City of Winnipeg for 2002 will be $1.3 million, rising to $6.64 million in 2006, for an accumulated loss of $19.9 million over five years. The loss of almost $20 million over five years will have negative consequences for the City of Winnipeg's efforts to lower property taxes and make Winnipeg more competitive. While all taxpayers in Winnipeg will be adversely affected, those taxpayers residing in the school divisions of Fort Garry, Assiniboine South, St. Boniface, St.

Vital and Winnipeg No. 1 will also see increases in their local education taxes. The Fort Garry, Assiniboine South, Win nipeg No. 1 and St. Boniface school divisions will lose $1.86 million in total this year, rising to $9.34 million in 2006, for an accumulated reve nue loss of $28 million over five years. The Government of Manitoba has made it clear that it will not in any way make up the loss of tax dollars the universities currently pay to municipalities and school divisions.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: We request the Government of Manitoba to consider ensuring that local property and edu cation taxes do not rise as a result of the off loading of provincial responsibilities onto the City of Winnipeg, the City of Brandon, the Fort Garry, Assiniboine South, Winnipeg No. 1, St. Boniface and St. Vital school divisions. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD West Nile Virus Mosquito Fogging Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): On July 12 , less than two weeks ago, the Health Minister invoked legislation passed by the.

Doer government instructing that the entire city of Winnipeg be fogged for mos quitoes. At the time the Health Minister said, and I quote, after discussions with the Premier and with the mayor, we have determined that the Province will be asking that the entire city of Winnipeg be fogged. The Health Minister added, and I quote, it is our decision from the Province that an imminent health hazard is possible. The words of the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak). Yesterday, the City of Winnipeg sent a letter to the Premier asking for direction regarding further fogging.

Is the Premier instructing the City of Winnipeg to fog the 40 percent of Wolseley residents that have yet to be fogged for West Nile virus?

3742 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 24, 2002 Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I believe the letter went to the Minister of Health, pursuant to the act, and the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin). We reiter ate our view that the detection of West Nile presents an imminent risk. The Minister of Health certainly issued the order in a serious way. We intend on implementing the order with our municipal partners. * (I3:35) Mr. Speaker, we are also in conversation with the other municipal officials outside of the city of Winnipeg where the other birds have had the detection of West Nile.

This legislation over rode the individual rights to have a so-called barrier or buffer zone. It was not taken, as they say, without care, and we are committed to the implementation of that order. · Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, in the Jetter which I would hope the ministers have shared with the Premier, saying he was part of the initial dis cussion, the City is looking for direction and they are asking questions such as: Do you wish to fog the remaining 40 percent of Wolseley? What legal action are you prepared to take on this matter? In addition, under what conditions could we anticipate a further order to fog?

They end by saying it is critical we get some direction from you today, meaning the NDP Doer government. We know the media has reported that W olseley residents opposed to the Government's decision to fog the entire city have blocked fogging trucks from public roadways and alleys in the neighbourhood. He said they have no plans to use the courts to force Wolseley protestors out of the way of the City's fogging trucks. The City is asking for direction from this Premier, Mr. Speaker.

A number of Wolseley residents who support the fogging have ques tioned the protestors, that they have not been arrested by the fact that they are breaking the law. That is what they are asking of this Premier, some form of leadership. The City of Winnipeg has stated it is clearly looking for some direction from the Premier. What legal action is the Prov ince prepared to take to ensure that I 00 percent of the W olseley residents are protected from a potential West Nile virus? Mr. Doer: I want to make it clear the fogging reduces the risk. There is no such thing as I 00% protection for anybody, Mr.

Speaker, and I think the Leader of the Opposition should be very careful on a very important health issue like this to be very accurate in his statements. Secondly, the provincial government offi cials met with the City of Winnipeg officials this morning. We reiterated our view that the full order should be implemented, including 100 per cent of the residents in the city of Winnipeg to reduce the risk. That was conveyed to the City today at the meeting and, as I understand it, they understand that issue and will proceed. Thirdly, Mr. Speaker, the issue of arrest.

It has not been my view to second-guess the Win nipeg city police in this Chamber. I am surprised the Leader of the Opposition would do so. Mr. Murray: Well, Mr. Speaker, what the Premier is making a comment on is that there was some meeting to proceed. I think, on behalf of those 40 percent of residents in Wolseley, they are saying what does proceed mean.

Does that mean once again that under imminent health hazards, as said by the Minister of Health, his words, his decision to fog the entire city, is he now saying they have some kind of a process in place that still yet today, if the fogging trucks go into Wolseley, if protestors stand in the way of what is legislation, of what this Premier has said is the law, that in fact they are not going to allow them to proceed? My question simply to the minister or the Premier is this: What is the process? Are you going to fog a hundred percent of Wolseley or not? Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, under the former gov ernment the buffer zone requirement was in place. We have brought in legislation not just for West Nile but for anthrax and other diseases to allow for, in circumstances like this, the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) to proceed with this order. We are implementing the order. * ( 13:40) We believe strongly the order was made for the benefit of the total community. We know

July 24, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3743 that any order from a provincial government, there is always dissent, but the bottom line is the order was given for the public health benefit of the majority of the community, in our view, to reduce the risk. We are still committed to 100% fogging and implementation of that order. We are working with the City of Winnipeg to imple ment fully the order that was issued 10 days ago. Dakota Tipi First Nation Women's Safety Concerns Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): Mr.

Speaker, last night a number of women from Dakota Tipi appeared before committee, some showing visible signs of abuse. These women, living in terror on a day-to-day basis, have asked this Government to help in an effort to improve their lives. They wanted to be able to go home last night without fear of retribution, without fear of danger for their own personal safety and for the safety of their children. I would like to ask the Minister responsible for the Status of Women (Ms.

McGifford), since our province has a very strict policy on zero tolerance regarding violence, why has she not taken any action to work with these women, given that this group made presentation to her and her Government in September of 2001? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, certainly the accusations, the allegations that were heard last night are of serious concern to all those who heard them. I might also note for members that there have been, as well, serious accusations by members of another faction in this community of Dakota Tipi.

There is, I guess for lack of a better description, a power struggle that has been developing in that community for some time. Accusations have been levelled at both sides, both in terms of allegations of criminal activity as well as allegations about police responses. We take this matter very seriously because we do expect no less than the application of the law of this country being enforced across this province.

In answer specifically to the question, in terms of specific allegations of criminal mis conduct, domestic violence or assaults, it is my information from the department that there are several investigations and there are several matters that are before the Crown Prosecutions office, which has been referred, by the way, to the Brandon office to distance from Portage to ensure a view of independence. Those orders are before the justice system as we speak. Mrs. Mitchelson: Since the Minister respon sible for the Status of Women (Ms. McGifford) is the advocate, chosen by her Premier (Mr.

Doer), to speak on behalf of women around her caucus and her Cabinet table, will the Minister responsible for the Status of Women do some thing for the women who indicate the police force that has been put in charge of ensuring their safety is a police force they do not believe can help them because it does not represent them and it reports to the chief of the group this Government appears to be supporting? Mr. Mackintosh: Well, Mr.

Speaker, there were members of this House and legislators in the Parliament of Canada who came before us who had the wisdom to ensure criminal allegations, criminal matters are dealt with, not at the bar of a Legislature but rather in a court of law with the Prosecutions service that acts on the basis of law and evidence and with police forces that have checks and balances in terms of their administra tions. As well, people who have gone before us in this Legislature have established a Law En forcement Review Agency and there is a police commission the police force in question reports to. Mr.

Speaker, it is my understanding that there are matters before the criminal justice sys tem and it would be inappropriate, of course, to discuss those from my bench, but it is premature to say nothing is happening. It is my under standing that in fact the Crown is taking these matters very seriously and will examine it in the professional way they have shown Manitobans in the past. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, but these words ring pretty hollow to women who have been abused and fear for their lives. * (13:45) Can the Minister responsible for the Status of Women (Ms.

McGifford) ensure the safety and security of those women? Are they safe and

3744 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANI TOBA July 24, 2002 free from harm? As a result of the public admission they made last night in front of the Minister responsible for the Status of Women, what has she done since she heard that infor mation first-hand to ensure they can go home to their communities and that their lives and their children's lives will be protected? Mr. Mackintosh: We have concern for all of the men, women and children of this particular community which has been going through a very, very difficult matter. This is not just a matter about divisions between two or more factions.

This is also about divisions within families, and it is very important that we look to see what the Province can do, recognizing the constitutional and fiduciary responsibilities of the federal government, but we do take the responsibility seriously. When considering what the Province can do, we have to recognize, Mr. Speaker, that the criminal law is in force; it is being exercised.

I can also advise there are ongoing discussions, in fact, today, with the signatories to the con tracting to the policing arrangement for this par ticular community between the Justice Depart ment, the federal government and the Dakota Ojibway Police Service to examine a range of options, given the challenges facing the com munity. So I look forward to receiving a report on those options. Dakota Tipi First Nation Women's Safety Concerns Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr. Speaker, last night in committee we heard a cry for help.

We heard a heart-wrenching and dis turbing story from Diana Traverse, a woman on Dakota Tipi reserve, who showed clear physical signs in her face that she had clearly been beaten. Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister responsible for the Status of Women, who sat on committee last night and saw the physical evi dence of abuse: Has the minister attempted to contact Ms. Traverse today to offer her support for the obvious abuse she has suffered? Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister responsible for the Status of Women): Mr. Speaker, no, I have not, because I have a meeting already set up with Ms. Traverse and Ms.

Prince for tomor row morning. Mrs. Stefanson: Well, Mr. Speaker, what is the Minister responsible for the Status of Women prepared to do today, given that Ms. Traverse left committee and was deeply concerned for her safety last night? Why has this minister not called her today to see how she is doing? Ms. McGifford: I was present last night as a member of the committee and I heard the presen tations from the citizens. As a citizen as well as a member of this Government, I found the stories stark and upsetting. As the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Mackintosh) has already said, at least I think he made the point that allegations made last evening will be forwarded to the proper authorities. Allegations, as the Minister of Jus tice has already said, have come from a variety of sources. Mr. Speaker, I think what last night's meet ing should have made apparent to all of us was the importance of healing, the importance that this community as a whole needs to heal, because although members opposite are talking about women, there are men and women on both sides of a very troubled community, men and women both, on both sides, who are in need of healing. Mrs.

Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, when will this Government take action on behalf of the women and children to enforce the zero tolerance policy of government to ensure women and children on the Dakota Tipi reserve feel safe in their own homes? * (13:50) Ms. McGifford : As I was saying to the member, it is because of the fact that this community is in need of healing. I am sure members opposite would agree with that. It is because of this that the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs (Mr.

Robinson) has written to his federal coun terpart, Robert Nault, and requested mediation in order to facilitate and to initiate this healing process. I want to assure members opposite that we take all our concerns extremely seriously, that

July 24, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3745 we are very concerned with ensuring our contractual obligations are fulfilled, and I hope members opposite realize it is the responsibility of the federal government to make certain there is a chief in place on this reserve who has the support of his people and who was elected by the people. As I said, Mr. Speaker, I have a meeting with the women from Dakota Tipi tomorrow morning and I look forward to meeting with them tomorrow morning. Dakota Tipi First Nation Women's Safety Concerns Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr.

Speaker, last night we heard from women from Dakota Tipi First Nation who are literally living in terror. This is a situation the Doer government has known about for months, yet there has been no action taken. I want to ask the Minister of Justice why he ignored the concerns of these women months ago until they finally had to come to the Legislature last night, show up in front of him with bruises on their faces and demand some action. Why is he now taking supposed action when he has had months to do that? Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I will have to explain this to the honourable member that allegations of criminal misconduct, Mr. Speaker, are dealt with by law enforcement officials who are specifi cally recruited and trained in investigation tech niques, in the handling of evidence, the writing of reports and the referral of these matters to the Crown Prosecutions office.

Where there are concerns about the conduct of police, there are in place processes to deal with that, including police commissions, includ ing the Law Enforcement Review Agency which was adopted by members of this House in years before. That is the process. We oversee the poli cies of the Prosecutions unit in Manitoba and we help to fund policing. In fact, in terms of Dakota Ojibway Police Service, we are a funder in partnership with the federal government. So, Mr. Speaker, that is the role of the Province.

I might also add that the department pulled a meeting together with the community to meet with OOPS so they could explore the different perceptions and issues that were being faced within that community. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Speaker, the issue is the police force and the fact that the chief is paying off the police force to do his work. The fact of the matter is I would like to table a copy of a letter sent by the Dakota Tipi women to the Premier (Mr. Doer) on September 13, 2001.

This letter states, and I quote: We are requesting immediate assistance, financial, legal and RCMP to assist the band members who are under extreme duress from the lack of food, the lack of schooling for our children, access to ser vices and verbal and physical intimidation. My question is: Why did the Doer govern ment not take action to address these legitimate concerns when this letter was sent to them? Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for the question.

It gives us an opportunity on this side of the House to inform our colleagues in this House what we have done with respect to addressing this issue. This issue goes back a long way. It goes back to 1972 when Dakota Tipi first became a First Nation recognized by the Indian Act, the federal government and the Department of Indi an Affairs. It is not a new issue. Unfortunately, the community is indeed needing a lot of healing. * (13:55) We have asked the federal govenunent, whose primary responsibility it is to concentrate on matters like this. I have contacted my federal counterpart.

During the noon hour, I have had the opportunity of discussing this matter with Grand Chief Dennis White Bird who is concerned about this issue, and we both agree that a mediator has to be brought into the community. Even if an election were called tomorrow, the problem would still be there. We need to address all the factions in the community and bring about some harmony, some healing for the entire community, because no doubt they have to co-exist in the time to come.

3746 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 24, 2002 Mrs. Smith: Mr. Speaker, with all due respect, the community is in need of protection at this time. What action has the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh) taken to ensure that the women who were courageous enough to speak out against Bill 44 last night would not be subject to physical retribution from Pashe and his regime today? Mr. Robinson: Mr.

Speaker, I would just like to say that equally we have received complaints from the other side, if I may term it that, allega tions of abuse, inaction by the Dakota Ojibway Police Service, but I am quite sure the Minister of Justice has replied to those questions·posed to him earlier. I would like to table for the House, Mr. Speaker, letters that I have written to the Hon ourable Robert Nault, the federal Minister of Indian Affairs, with respect to the status of the community and who is the official chief of the community, a letter I wrote on the 17th of July.

I would like to also table for the information of the House, a letter I have written to the same minister with respect to the need for a mediator in the community that should be appointed. It should be a mediator who is acceptable to all in the community, because I think we as legislators here can make all kinds of recom mendations, but certainly Grand Chief White Bird and I would make our recommendation to the federal government who we feel would be appropriate to deal with the many outstanding issues. Now last night I understand the committee heard some very compelling information. That is one version.

There are other versions, as well, Mr. Speaker, that are equally compelling. I think the issue has to be addressed by the mediator and we feel that is the best way our Government can deal with the issue. Dakota Tipi First Nation Gaming Revenues Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Last night, after hearing the concerns of members of Dakota Tipi First Nation regarding the accounta bility of gaming revenue on the reserve and the former chiefs influence over members of the police force, the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh) did the right thing and held up the legislation.

I would like to ask the Minister responsible for Gaming why he would direct members of Dakota Tipi who have concerns over the ac countability of gaming revenue to send their concerns to the Dakota police service when this Minister of Justice knew about the special relationship between the former chief and the OOPS for well over a year. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the administration of The Gaming Control Act): I think it is very clear that any accusations regarding any impropriety, particularly any criminal activity, should clearly be referred to the justice authorities.

That was something any responsible minister or anyone in this House would expect to happen. I indicated before, within the matters we have been dealing with in terms of the gaming commission vis-a-vis our gaming commission and the gaming commission of Dakota Tipi that was set up by the previous government, that we have been working very hard over the last period of time we have been in office to bring that committee into compliance. We made significant progress.

I can say to the member we are con tinuing to work with Dakota Tipi to avoid the situation we inherited when we came into gov ernment, in which the committee was not in compliance with the agreement they signed with the previous government in 1994. Mr. Gilleshammer: This is a relationship and a situation that is today. You have a gaming agree ment there. You have a chief who has an unholy relationship with the local police force and you stiii refer these people to the local police force. Why would you do that? Mr. Ashton: I want to echo the words of the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs (Mr.

Robinson) because, quite frankly, statements being made by this member are not only not helpful to the situation but are scurrilous in terms of dealing with a situation which is already sensitive enough. He is impugning the police authorities in that area. I want to say that I deal with matters

July 24, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3747 on their merit, and I want to stress that whenever issues are raised in terms of compliance with gaming commission regulations we have dealt with them. In fact, this committee has made sig nificant progress in terms of coming into compliance. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Oppo sition House Leader, on a point of order. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): I would ask you, Mr. Speaker, to review the words spoken by the honourable minister. Maybe he could retract them.

He knows they are ruled unparliamentary in Beauchesne. I will not repeat them. * (14:00) Mr. Speaker: The honourable Deputy Govern ment House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Steve Ashton (Deputy Government House Leader): I am not sure specifically the word that was used, but if there is any concern about the words I used, I think "irresponsible" would be more in keeping with a parliamentary phrase. I will withdraw, I assume, the word "scurrilous" which was not put on the record. I will withdraw that. Mr. Speaker: I thank the honourable minister for that withdrawal.

That should take care of the matter. * * * Mr. Speaker: Honourable Minister, have you concluded your comments? Mr. Gilleshammer: I would ask the minister to take some action and end this gaming agree ment. Close the gaming palace on Dakota Tipi until an election is held and these matters are cleared up. Mr. Ashton: I find it incredible that the member opposite was part of the government that signed this agreement signed by Jim Ernst and Darren Praznik in 1994, would get up and make com ments like that when he should know, if he does not, the structure of the agreement that was put in place.

I can tell when we came into govern ment the First Nation was not in compliance with this agreement. We brought that, by work ing with the committee, into compliance. The only remaining issue within the confines of this agreement signed by the previ ous government we a:re dealing with is in terms of the audits from '01, '02. I answered questions on that yesterday from the Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach). I want to say we are continuing to work on a daily basis to bring them into compliance.

We are taking action to deal with the situation we inherited two and a half years ago in which they were not in compliance. We will continue to do the responsible thing which is to bring the com munity into compliance in terms of the gaming regulations. The member should read the agreement he signed back in '94 and perhaps explain why they did not act on it. Mr. Speaker: Order. I would like to remind all honourable members, when putting a question or answering a question, put it through the Chair. I ask the co-operation of all honourable members. North American Indigenous Games All-Party Agreement-Recess Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier. Tomor row is the start of the North American Indigen ous Games. It is an opportunity to recognize and salute the achievements of Aboriginal athletes and to celebrate the positive contributions of Aboriginal people to life in Manitoba. I would ask the Premier whether he will support an all party agreement to recess the Legislature during the North American Indigenous Games to respect, honour and celebrate Aboriginal people and their achievements in Manitoba.

3748 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 24, 2002 Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the member has already discussed this issue with the Government House Leader. I believe we have offered up some ideas on how we can operate and continue the work of the people in a similar way to what we did in the 1997 flood so we could both honour Aboriginal people and the Games, which we are proud to host, and I think all Manitobans are proud to host these events here in Manitoba, and also carry on the work that people have elected us to do in the House.

I do not want to interfere with discussions that are going on between the House leaders but I certainly think the model we used of co operation to allow people to sandbag,. to allow people to work in emergency situations in the '97 flood we think is the way to go. I know the member opposite was probably· campaigning during that period of time in the 1997 federal election, but it did work quite well in this House. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, life has not always been easy for Aboriginal people in Manitoba, and I ask the Premier why his commitment is only partial.

I ask the Premier for his commit ment to show, as a Legislature, that we are fully committed to support and honour Aboriginal people in this province by having a full recess during the North American Indigenous Games. Mr. Doer: Perhaps if the member did not ring the bell so much, we would have completed the work of the House. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Gerrard: Perhaps if the Premier had called the Legislature at the usual time, we would have got through before. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for River Heights has the floor. Mr.

Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, surely, I ask the Premier, there is no better time than now, when we have concerning news, disturbing news from Dakota Tipi, to recognize the positive contri butions of Aboriginal people, to celebrate those contributions and to have a full recess during the North American Aboriginal games so that we can in fact recognize and honour and support Aboriginal people in this province. Mr. Doer: We all should be supporting, recognizing and including Aboriginal people 365 days of the year. I am proud of the fact, Mr.

Speaker, that we have worked very hard on this side of the House to have three exemplary members of First Nation communities sitting on the benches in the Legislative Chamber of Manitoba. I am proud of the fact we are working hard to improve ACCESS programs. I am proud of the fact that we are working to create more opportunities for Aboriginal people throughout our educational institutions. I think all of us should work 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year to include Aboriginal people in a future that is full of hope and full of opportunity. Mr. Speaker, we are proud to host the Aboriginal games.

I am certainly aware of the workload this Legislature has, some of which, by the way, has importance for Aboriginal people, like Child and Family Services proposals. 1 believe we are capable of working a

schedule that would be similar to the Red River flood to allow us to continue to do what we were elected to do and at the same time, in the best of our collective abilities, host people from all over North America in the way we are so proud to do with the North American Aboriginal games taking place in our beautiful province of Manitoba. Fetal Alcohol Syndrome Screeningffesting Cap acity Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Family Services and Housing. Recently, questions have arisen regarding F AE and F AS.

Could the Minister of Family Services please indicate to the House what improvements have been made to our screening tools and what the most recent data is in regard to FAS and FAE? Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Mr. Speaker, we are fortunate to have two diagnostic centres in Manitoba, the

July 24, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3749 clinic for alcohol and drug-exposed children in Winnipeg at the Children's Centre and the fetal alcohol support team in Thompson, whose clini cal abilities have been trained by the Winnipeg region partly by using our telediagnostic capac ity, which our Government has expanded sig nificantly. Over the last three years, the number of diagnoses have stayed approximately the same at a total of around 100 each year, which approxi mates 0.75 births per 1000, either full or partial FA S-F AE.

I think we all acknowledge that is probably an under-diagnosis because the visible symptoms of F AS and F AE effect are not always present at birth, particularly at the lesser severity. In addition, Mr. Speaker, I can indicate we have more than doubled our STOP FAS sites, expanding to Thompson and The Pas, and that the women in those sites have an incredibly successful record of parenting their existing children, the new children they have had since and that they are achieving 70% abstinence either from alcohol or drugs and using reliable birth control. Dakota Tipi First Nation Gaming Agreement- Termination Mr.

Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, I just heard the words from the Premier (Mr. Doer) honouring Aboriginal people and, Mr. Premier, I want to tell you how hollow your words sound in light of the words that were uttered by the women from the Tipi Dakota Ojibway tribe in Portage Ia Prairie who pleaded with three ministers to hear their concerns. My question is to the Minister responsible for Lotteries in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, the presenters to the committee last night pleaded with the Government to have the casino closed because the revenues from that casino were not being directed where they should be.

I would like to ask the Minister of Lotteries- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on a point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The member is just now heard to be putting a question. Would you please remind him that a question should contain one carefully drawn sentence as a

preamble? * (14:10) Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, I would like to take this opportunity to remind all members that Beauchesne Citation 409(2): A

preamble should not exceed one carefully drawn sentence. * * * Mr. Speaker: I would ask the honourable mem ber to please put his question. Mr. Derkach : Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister responsible for Lotteries whether she will immediately move, under

section 8 of the siteholder agreement with Dakota Tipi band, to terminate the Bingo Palace and the agreement between her and the band immediately as a result of what has taken place. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister char ged with the administration of The Gaming Control Act): Once again, this member who was a member of the previous government should be aware of the agreement they signed and the structure they put in place, not just for Dakota Tipi but for every First Nations gaming authority in the province. In fact, I have a copy of that agreement here. What the member would do wise to put on the record, Mr.

Speaker, is that under that agreement essentially we have a situation that is no different than we have with any of the other agreements we have in place, indeed agreements that would extend to businesses or Assiniboia Downs. That gets to the root of what the basic issue they are supposedly raising is, which is an internal dispute over the post fees of gaming revenue. I want to indicate that is an internal matter that is very much related to what the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs (Mr. Robinson) referenced earlier. It needs to be resolved by the

3750 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 24, 2002 community, first and foremost, but also the Department of Indian Affairs. I want to stress again, Mr. Speaker, the member should know the agreement his govern ment signed in 1994. That is the agreement we are following and that is the agreement we have worked with Dakota Tipi to bring them in compliance with, something that did not exist two and a half years ago. Mr. Derkach : On a new question, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Russell, on a new question. Mr. Derkach : First of all, I would like to table the siteholder agreement between Manitoba Lotteries and the First Nations peoples.

Section 8 indicates the agreement shall be effective from the date assigned until terminated and may be terminated without cause or for a variety of reasons. One of those reasons I would like to highlight is No. 7: Engaging in conduct that is contrary to the public interest or harmful to the integrity or the reputation of a video lotteries scheme. I would ask the mmtster whether or not, based on

section 8 of the Lotteries siteholder agreement, she is prepared to terminate the agreement immediately so that the concerns of the individuals who expressed those concerns yesterday can be addressed. Mr. Ashton: Well, Mr. Speaker, once again, I think this is very important and this is the responsible thing to do. When accusations are made that include anything that is criminal, that should be something we should be very careful in dealing with and make sure it is dealt with by the authorities. If that is the accusation being made by the member he would do well to refer any of the accusations to police.

That was the response I gave. That is the response from the Minister responsible for Lotteries. Any time any serious accusations have been raised, we do not act as judge and jury on that. What we do is we assure they are referred to the appropriate authorities. What we deal with is specific issues in terms of gaming compliance issues. I want to stress again that two and a half years ago this gaming commission was not in compliance.

We have worked to the point today, subject to providing the additional information on the audits, we made significant progress and they are now in fact in compliance with the gaming issues. These are other types of issues that should be referred to the relevant authorities. Dakota Tipi First Nation Third-Party Management Mr. Harry Enns (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I tire from listening to the honourable Minister responsible for Gaming harking back to 1994 and the previous administration. We heard last night and we are aware.

We were told in this House that six months ago a third party was put in place at Dakota Tipi to help clean up the mess we heard about last night and we are hearing about today. The person responsible who won that untendered contract is the Premier's (Mr. Doer) brother, David Doer. He was appointed six months ago. He was appointed six months ago to clean up the mess. My question to him, never mind what was done in '94 by the forn1er Filmon government, what is the First Minister's brother doing? He is being paid to clean up this mess? What is he doing about it? Hon.

Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the administration of The Gaming Control Act): I do not think you can get much lower than that, Mr. Speaker. The same individual who is a principal in Soaring Eagle Consultants was hired by the federal Department of Health to conduct audits. I believe one of the other companies that is involved is also a company of which the fom1er premier of this province, Gary Filmon, is a partner. No one is suggesting there is any tie in with Gary Filmon and the other company.

For that member, who is the dean of this House, to get up and make that kind of guilt by association is irresponsible and unacceptable. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. -

July 24, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 375 1 Mr. Speaker: Order. May I remind all hon ourable members that when the Speaker rises, all members should be seated and the Speaker should be heard in silence. I once again remind all honourable members and I ask for your co operation. Time for Oral Questions had expired, and now we will move to members' statements. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Dakota Tipi First Nation Mr. Harry Enns (Lakeside) : Mr. Speaker, last night at committee was an evening that I would rather forget.

In my 36 years I have heard many emotional appeals, many controversial issues brought to the attention of all of us as legislators. For those of us who were there it was an unbelievable evening of listening to what is really happening in parts of our province, in this particular instance at the Dakota Tipi community just south of Portage Ia Prairie. Mr. Speaker, it was listening to represen tations from Third World representatives. It was like we have abandoned all vestiges of law and order. It was simply unbelievable.

For this Gov ernment, as they did just a few moments ago, to hide, to try to shield themselves from any responsibility at all on this matter by referring back to agreements signed in '94 by previous administrations, we are talking now in the year 2002. We were told last night that the individuals appearing before us, and, by the way, it took great, great courage for them to appear before us, that not one, not two but three or four ministers were notified by letter, by calls over a year ago about the situation at Dakota and not a thing was done about it.

Members want to chastise me because I have the temerity to suggest to them that this is a matter that is very close to this Government. Yes, the First Minister's (Mr. Doer) brother is charged with the responsibility of cleaning up the mess as a third-party intervener. They take umbrage at that. They come back and spout at us. They come back and spout at us the dis cussions about agreements reached five and six years ago. The Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr.

Robinson) acknowledged that the Soaring Eagle was recommended by the now thoroughly dis credited chief, Dennis Pashe, and this is all that we heard about last night. It is a sad day, a sad day in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker: The honourable member's time has expired. * (1 4:20) Manitoba Threshermen's Reunion and Stampede Mr. Harry Schellenberg (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, it is an honour to rise and recognize the 48th Grand Opening of the Manitoba Thresher men's Reunion and Stampede. This event will take place this week in Austin, Manitoba from July 24 to July 27. Mr. Speaker: Order.

May I ask all members that wish to have a conversation to please do it in the loge or out in the hallway. You cannot even hear the member who is trying to make a member's statement. I think that is very unfair. Mr. Schellenberg: I would like to commend the board of directors and the many volunteers who make this event a great festival where Mani tobans celebrate our pioneer achievements of our rural past. Mr. Speaker, this festival is a time when we stop, reflect and celebrate our agricultural heri tage.

As we reflect, we have fond memories of our achievements and successes in the develop ment of our agricultural communities across the Prairies. This Threshermen's Reunion is a tre mendous opportunity for young and old alike to share history and stories, as well as learn about new technologies while enjoying the great vari ety of activities that are organized for everyone. Mr. Speaker, as a Canadian history teacher of many years and having grown up on a farm, I appreciate and identify with the many exhibits which include: farm machinery, horses, build ings such as homes, churches, schools and busi nesses.

Other activities include threshing and plowing demonstrations and evening rodeos. Mr. Speaker, the one-room school, however, on the grounds of the museum brings back fond

3752 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 24, 2002 memories of education on the Prairies. To me, personally, the one-room school is the most meaningful, because I began my teaching career in a one-room school which played a key role in rural Manitoba and served rural communities across Canada very well. I must also commend this festival for the fine hospitality and sense of community that visitors experience. I also encourage the agricultural community to preserve the sense of sharing and self-reliance that our pioneers fostered.

The museum and all the activities are a testimony to the evolution of farming and the development of life on the Prairies, and it also points out the role men and women played in buildi ng a strong province in a country as we know it today. Mr. Speaker, members on both sides of this Chamber appreciate the important role the agri cultural community plays in the life of Mani toba. Mr. Speaker: The honourable member's time has expired. Mr. David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to speak of the 48th Annual Manitoba Threshermen's Reunion and Stampede which starts today in Austin, Mani toba and runs through to July 27. For nearly 50 years, the Manitoba Thresher men's Reunion and Stampede has celebrated the proud tradition of Manitoba's agricultural com munity and has drawn countless Manitobans to Austin to enjoy everything that this annual cele bration has to offer. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to take this oppor tunity to invite all honourable members to take in the festivities, which include daily vintage parades, the Manitoba Horse Pull Association Show, home-cooked meals, to just name a few. Another attraction which I am proud to sponsor for yet another year is the Central Canada's 24th Annual Fiddle contest which will take place on Friday and Saturday at I :30 and 7:00 p.m.

Other attractions at this year's Reunion and Stampede include the John Deere Jubilee, which features a machinery and equipment dis play tent; a John Deere Memorabilia Toy Show; as well as a raffle of a 19 42 John Deere B tractor. There are many other points of interest at this year's celebration, including the Manitoba Amateur Radio Museum, the Manitoba Clydes dale Classic and the Reunion Ladies Activity Display.

I strongly encourage all honourable members and all Manitobans to make the trip to Austin, Manitoba for the affordable weekend of family entertainment that celebrates the agn cultural heritage of our rural Manitoba. For the lOth year in a row, I will be proudly taking

part in the annual activities. I hope to see all of you at Austin this week. Prime Meridian Trail Mr. Tom Nevakshonoff (Interlake): It gives me great pleasure to rise in the House today to tell of a very special event in which I took part on July 6 and 7 of this year. I am referring to the Second Annual Prime Meridian Trail Ride-a thon, which was held in order to raise money for the upkeep of the trail, which is situated on the bed of the old CN rail line abandoned a number of years ago.

The ride began on Saturday with a pancake breakfast in Inwood followed by lunch at the hall in Narcisse and ended the first day in Chatfield. On the second day we stopped in Poplarfield for breakfast, had a nice lunch in Broad Valley and ended the day with a fine pig roast dinner in Fisher Branch. I want to pay tribute to the people who cycled along with me this year.

They included Inwood firefighters Richard Sherred and Jeff Norris; chair of the Prime Meridian Trail Associ ation Board Gerry Rechsiedler and his wif e, Maureen; Rosemary Trachel of Manitoba Recre ational Trails and Janice Podaima of the Fisher Development Corporation. Special mention must be made of Sheila Sherred, who was attempting to walk the entire length of the trail in order to double her pledges. All in all, approximately $14 00 was raised. On behalf of the Prime Meridian Trail -

July 24, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3753 Association, I want to thank all of those who played a role in carrying off successfully this worthy event. The Prime Meridian Trail is a vital tourist attraction for the Interlake, which attracts many visitors to our region. Public awareness events such as this will enhance our tourism potential in the years to come. I encourage one and all to join us next year in making it an even bigger event. Dakota Tipi First Nation Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Last night we heard very disturbing and compelling testi mony from residents of Dakota Tipi who fear for their lives. We heard a cry for assistance from members who have suffered violent attacks and been unable to get adequate assistance.

In the presentations it was very clear that on this occasion the federal government has acted well in its areas of jurisdiction, but there has been a clear failure of the provincial government to live up to its responsibilities to ensure law, order and adequate policing services are available for those residents who need it on the Dakota Tipi First Nation. Mr. Speaker, the presentations highlighted the challenges of implementing Aboriginal police services. The presentations also served to highlight the need, whatever else happens, to have approaches which will ensure the safety of all Manitoba citizens.

Today I called on the Premier (Mr. Doer) to recess the Legislature during the North Ameri can Aboriginal Games to recognize the positive contributions of Aboriginal people. Such a recess could also provide time for the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh) to ensure that the situation at Dakota Tipi is addressed on an urgent basis and provide time as well for the Mini�ter of Justice to make considered changes to B_tll 44, the bill dealing with Aboriginal poltcmg services, to address the issues raised in such a compelling and heart-wrenching fashion by the members of the Dakota Tipi First Nation last night.

MATTER OF GRIEVANCE Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): I rise today, and I must say this is the first time since being elected as MLA that I have felt compelled to rise on a grievance. I am rising because- Mr. Speaker: Order. Our records indicate that this session the honourable Member for Fort Garry has already used her grievance on December 6 of 2001 . The honourable Member for Tuxedo, on a grievance. Dakota Tipi First Nation Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): I recognize the seriousness of using our grievances in this House. I feel as my colleague the Member for Lakeside (Mr.

Enns) mentioned that in his 36 years as a member for the Manitoba Legislature, he recognized the seriousness and how com pelling the presentations were in committee last night. While I have not been here as long as the Member for Lakeside, I tell you, Mr. Speaker, I have never seen anything more compelling and more moving in terms of the presentations that w_e saw �rom the members of the Dakota Tipi Ftrst Natton last night. . We heard a presentation from Margery Pnnce and several issues that she is dealing with as the head of her nation.

We heard from Edward Pashe, from Diana Traverse, from Sheila James, from Lorraine Elk and also had a presentation from a former colleague in the Manitoba Legis lature, David Newman. * (1 4:30) These presentations were just so unbeliev a?le, particularly the women who presented last ntght. When Diana Traverse came to the podium to speak about the series of abuse that she has suffered with for the last number of years in her life, it was absolutely unbelievable. When she came to the podium, we could see right away that she had physical signs, Mr. Speaker, that clearly showed that she had been abused.

When she came to the podium, she was crying out for help. She wanted this Government to listen to her, to make them realize the kinds of things that she and other women and children are suffering from on the Dakota Tipi Reserve. Last night we were debating Bill 44. This was to set up a police force on the reserve and

3754 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 24, 2002 bring it into legislation. The police force is existing now, and these people came out last night to speak against the legislation. They wanted to speak against it because they feel it is not there for them; it is there for the former chief , Dennis Pashe, and that he is controlling this police force. Mr.

Speaker, when Diana Traverse spoke of going to the gaming, the lotteries on the reserve, she talked about how she had gone in to try and plead with these people so that the women and chi ldren could actually see the money that is being raised by the gaming on the reserve. She pleaded with the head of the lotteries on the reserve, and she claimed that she had been beaten because she had taken a stand against the former chief there, Dennis Pashe, and that this was wrong. So dissenting views on the reserve mean nothing. Diana Traverse was subsequently beaten, and we could see that on her face last night.

I was deeply disturbed. She told of other stories, and some of the other women spoke of other stories that they had encountered in the last while on the reserve. They had cried out for help from the police force on the reserve, and they cried out for help from this Government, and they were shut down. To me, that is disturbing. How anyone could sit and listen to the presen tations that were presented last night and tum their backs, Mr. Speaker, this is unbelievable.

Diana Traverse left last night fearing for her lif e, as did Sheila James, as did Lorraine Elk, as did Edward Pashe, as did Margery Prince, and did any of those people get one phone call from any member of this Government to see how they are doing today, to make sure that last night the goons were not all over them and beating them up because they came forward and spoke their minds about what they say is really happening on the reserve? That is deeply di sturbing to me, Mr. Speaker. I cannot tell you how di sturbing it is that the Minister responsible for the Status of Women (Ms.

McGif ford) was there, and she heard these presentations and had no response at all. It was just unbelievable. She did not feel compelled to even call Diana Traverse or the other women who took their own lives, who took their lives last night to come forward, who came forward last night knowing that their lives could poten tially be threatened upon returning to the reserve. Mr.

Speaker, I think that each and every one of those women last night who came forward and also Edward Pashe who came forward because his life was in danger as well, those people came forward because they realize the seriousness of this issue on the reserve. The police force that is on the reserve now, the DOPS police force, Mr. Speaker, is being controlled by Dennis Pashe and, as they claimed in their presentations last nig ht, his goons.

How can women and chi ldren expect to lead normal lives and expect to have a hope for the future if when they are beaten up and they are left on the floor, when they call 911 or they call the police, it takes an hour and a half to get there, and then when they show up they say, well, you know, this is not really a serious issue? You know what? This is a serious issue, and this is an issue that this Government has decided to tum its back on. Mr.

Speaker, the presentations last night were compelling, and I felt very strongly that I had to get up on a grievance today about this issue because not just for the presentations and for the women and child ren themselves but with the way that the Government is effectively trying to sweep this under the carpet. The federal government does not recognize Dennis Pashe as the chief on the reserve, yet this Government does. We heard testimony last night from people who say that Dennis Pashe's controlling of the reserve and the gaming funds and so on there, they do not know where this money has gone.

They do not see it in programs for education for their children, for health, for health care. As a matter of fact, one of the presenters last night said that she had to bring her family into Winni peg to a food bank because they could not afford to be fed on the reserve, and they did. One of the presenters did refer last night to Dennis Pashe's yacht. Now, I do not know, Mr. Speaker, if Dennis Pashe has a yacht, but this is what is happening on the reserve. * (1 4:40) The money from the gaming commtssJOn, when it was set up originally, that money was to -

July 24, 2002 LEGISL ATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 3755 go towards education, health care and other programs on the reserve to see to it that the people on the reserve were able to live the lives that they should be able to be comfortable in living, safe lives, lives with proper health care, with proper police services so that when they need them, they are there for them. Not this, you know, when they really need someone to come forward and help them because they are in a very bad predicament after just being beaten by some one, to have the police service on the reserve tum their backs.

Yet this Government, until hearing the pre sentations last night from these people-! mean, Mr. Speaker, if those people had not shown up last night to give the compelling presentations that they did, I dare say that this legislation probably would have gone through, and that is shameful because of what is happening on the reserve. It took a lot of courage for those people to come forward last night and to speak their minds because there is a lot of danger facing them when they get back to the reserve, the women and the child ren.

It took a lot of courage for them to come forward, but I dare say if they had not come forward, this legisla tion would have gone through, and this Government would have continued to sweep the very serious issues and problems with the women and child ren on the Dakota Tipi reserve under the carpet. That, more than anything, is the reason that I am standing before you today in a grievance.

We do our best as an opposition party to try and come forward and to seek out some of the things that happen, some of these things, these very serious issues, and what concerns me is what happens if something like this happens to slip through. Are these things going to continue to happen because this Government does not have the courage to stand up for people like the women and chil dren on the Dakota Tipi reserve?

I challenge this Government to do the right thing in this case; to put this legisla tion aside, to work with the federal government, who does not recognize Dennis Pashe as the chief, and wait until a proper election is called on the reserve before they decide to pass such legislation. Mr. Speaker, going back to the presentations of last night, and as my colleague from Lakeside and my other colleagues who were there last night, we had trouble. It was so comp elling, these stories that were told to us. I believe it is so important that we try and do something about this very serious issue.

I challenge this Government to do the right thing here and not just put this legislation aside, but do something for the women who are being beaten and for the child ren that are being beaten on the reserve, Mr. Speaker, and also put a police force in place right now. Use the RCM P. Make sure the RCMP is accessible for these women and children when they need help because, when we left last night, the Mini ster responsible for Justice decided that, well, we will deal with this matter later.

That is wrong because as soon as these people left last nig ht their lives were in danger, and today who were they to call for help? Are they going to call OOPS? Are they going to rely on them to help them when it takes them an hour and a half to get out, and they say, oh, well, you do not really need our help anyway. I challenge this Government today to do the right thing and ensure, if women, any child, anyone on the reserve wants service, that they are able to dial 911 and get the service that they need and deserve, Mr. Speaker. An Honourable Member: Is it the will of the House to give leave to waive- Mr.

Speaker: Order. We are not there. I am still dealing with grievances. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, is there leave of the House to waive private members' hour? Mr. Speaker: Is there leave of the House to waive private members' hour? [Agreed} Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, would you canvass the House to see if there is unanimous consent to

3756 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 24, 2002 set aside the Estimates of the Department of Agricul ture and Food at 4 p.m., in Room 255, in order to consider the Estimates of Education, Training and Youth, with this change to apply for today and tomorrow. Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent to set aside the Estimates of the Department of Agri culture and Food at 4 p.m., in Room 255, to consider the Estim ates of Education, Training and Youth, with this change to apply for today and tomorrow only? {Agreed} Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): I move, seconded by the Minis ter of Finance, that the House resolve into Committee of Supply. Motion agreed to. * (15 :00) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) STATUS OF WOMEN Mr. Chair person (Harry Schellenberg): Good afternoon. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will be continuing the consid eration of the Estimates of the Status of Women. When this committee last met, there had been agreement to have a global discussion. The floor is now open for questions . Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Chair, I would like to begin this afternoon, I guess, where we left off yesterday, because when I asked some questions yesterday, and perhaps I did not have them framed exactly correctly and so therefore my questions were ruled somewhat out of order.

I have to say that the evidence of the rest of the day showed that, indeed, there was a need for concern and that the questions I was asking were, indeed, relevant to the issues that women in this province are being confronted with. Mr. Chair, last night in committee we wit nessed an unsolicited display of what happens when the rights of individuals are not respected by members of a community, and what happens when we allow a lawless group to conduct their activities without being checked.

We also noted what happens when a police force is in the pocket of a dictator chief who does not respect the law, and, who, in fact, takes himself as the highest authority in that community. The most glaring piece of evidence that we saw last night was when, I believe her name was Dia na Traverse, came to the podium showing clear signs of abuse, physical abuse. She showed signs of being battered, and yet she had the courage to come forward and to express her case clearly and very eloquently to the committee. She was not asking the committee to impose sanctions against anyone. She was pleading for help.

She had said, Mr. Chair, that she and the group of people that were with her, along with the Council of Women of Manitoba, had made repeated requests to the Minis ter responsible for Lotteries and the Status of Women for a meeting and were denied. They also told us that the minister said the only way that she would meet with them is if they would not talk about Lot teries. Now those are pretty grave accusations, and those are accusations that we as legisl ators had better take very, very seriously.

My colleague the member from River East can probably express the sentiments and the feelings of women like this much better than I can, Mr. Chair. But I can tell you as a member of the Legisla ture, a Manitoban and a parent, when I see this kind of evidence come before us, you cannot help but have your heart go out to those people to begin with. I think all of us, the minis ter included, would probably feel that way, as well. When you know that child ren are terror ized, when women are terrorized because of their stand on an issue, you must do something. Yesterday, Mr.

Chair, I asked the minister about a somewhat unrelated issue but never theless having to do with gaming. She did not seriously give me the time of day with respect to the concerns I was raising. As a matter of fact, it ended up in the House with a vote and almost ended up wit h another vote. Now, Mr. Chair, I am not going to profess that I know how to place my questions precisely

July 24, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 3757 and as eloquently as I should, and I do try to follow the rules of the committee and of the House, but what I was raising on behalf of not only my constituents-and I have to tell you I have five reserves in my constituency. The people there are having the same struggles in many respects as what we saw evidenced yes terday, not to the same extent by any means, but there are people in these communities who are having dif ficulties, who need help.

So, when we come to committee and we ask for help from the mini ster and when people came before her last night, what appalled me most of all after those presentations were made was the fact that this mini ster did not ask a single question. This minister did not offer a single word of comfort to any of those presenters who, by the way, I think six out of seven were women. Even if the mini ster had uttered a word of compassion for what these women had gone through, that would have given some evidence that the minister truly cared. This afternoon when we asked questions in the House, Mr.

Chair, the minister, who was asked by my colleague the Member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson) and my colleague the Member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Smith) about the inci dents and about the events of last evening, the minist er, as Min ister responsible for the Status of Women (Ms. McGif ford), did not respond. So I have to ask the question about the seriousness of this minister in terms of her responsibilit y as the Minis ter for the Status of Women when she will not even respond to issues that are raised that clearly are in the realm of her responsibility.

So I want to begin this afternoon by asking the Minister responsible for the Status of Women why she chose, No. 1, not to give any kind of comfort through her words in commit tee last night and, secondly, why this minister did not take any action early this morning to assure herself that the no tolerance for violence concept that we all, I think, agree with and cling to would not have been invoked with respect to these women. [interjection} Now, Mr. Chair, I hear from the Member for Dauphin-Roblin (Mr. Struthers}- An Honourable Member: I have made an impact already.

Mr; Derkach : -who says- An Honourable Member: Where have you been? Mr. Derkach: -where have we been? Well, Mr. Chair, where has this Government been? Where has this Government been? Because this Gov ernment knew about this issue way back last September. These pleas have not come just as of yesterday. We raised this issue in the House when it was brought to our attention on July 16. [interjection} Now, the Member for Dauphin-Roblin can take this lightly, of course. I know he does not care because he told the people in Dauphin: So what?

I can go back to teaching, so I do not really give a damn, were his words, and maybe that is where he should be. So, Mr. Chair, I go back to this issue, the issue of the violence against women and the issue that I asked yesterday, and I want to go back to the minister and ask her why she did not offer any words of comfort to the women who presented last evening, why she was silent and why she has not taken any action on the issues that were raised with her yesterday or last evening up until this time. Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister responsible for the Status of Women): Mr.

Chair, in his remarks, the member made reference to terror and said that he did not like to think of women and child ren living in terror, and I would extend that. I do not like to think of women, child ren or men-I do not like to think of anyone living in terror. I know that I have recently been following the newspaper articles on chil dren soldiers and the terror that characterizes their lives and the kinds of maimings and the kinds of cripplings that those child ren have endured, Mr. Chair person. I do not like to think of men, women, chi ldren, anybody Ji ving in terror. So I think that

3758 LEGISL ATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA July 24, 2002 the member and I can agree on the horrors of terror. * (1 5:10 ) As far as why we voted yesterday, I know the member made reference to that in his remarks, we voted because he viola ted the rules of the House. He can cast himself as somebody who is not too polished, as he has tried to do here, but the member has been a member of this House since at least 19 88. I am sure he knows the rules very well. He knows that it is not legitimate, and it viola tes the rules to ask ques tions about Lotteries when he is speaking to the Minister for the Status of Women.

Now, I just happen to be both the Minister of Lotteries and the Mini ster for the Status of Women, but today he should think of me only as the Minis ter for the Status of Women, because that is what these Estimates are about. That is why I have these staff members here. That is how he should regard me. He should not think of me today here as the Min ister for Advanced Education. Nor should he think of me in any other capacity than the one that I am here for. He had made reference to a series of requests for meetings.

I know there was a request for a meeting in April which came up very suddenly, and I had to go to Toronto to a meeting of CMEC, a group with which I know the member is familia r. I did tell the member in the House today that I wiii be meeting with women from Dakota Tipi tomorrow. That meet ing has been organized for some time. I am pleased to say that staff, both from the advisory council and the dir ectorate, will be with me.

I guess I would like to talk a little bit about the sit uation at Dakota Tipi, but, beforehand, I do want to assure the member, assure all members that I was present, as the Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach) has indica ted, in the meeting last night, in the committee last night. We heard several bills and we heard several presentations. I believe there were four presenta tions by women and two presentations by gentle men. I believe that Edward Pashe and David Newman were the presenters. David Newman, of course, we recognize because he is a former member of the House.

As a member of government, as an MLA, as a citizen, of course I found the stories that we heard from all speakers, men and women, to be upsetting. Upsetting is perhaps putting it mildly. They were stories that detailed very, very dis turbing and troubling times in the community. Something else that was part and parcel of the stories that the women told and that the men told were certain allegations. I have been assured by the Min ister of Justice that the scripts will be forwarded to the proper authori ties so that any allegations will be investigated.

I mention this because the member has suggested that I am not doing anything, and, of course, it is not my responsibility to forward those allegations, it is the Mini ster of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh), and he is doing that. You see, what we need in this situation is a concerted effort by a number of minist ers, and a number of mini sters are working on it. Let me proceed. One of the points that the Mini ster of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs (Mr. Robinson) made in the House today, and I believe perhaps the Minis ter of Justice made this remark too, is that allegations have come from a number of factions.

There are a number of fac tions in this particular community, and both sides. This is a divided community. This IS a community basically at war with itself. A number of allegations have come from one side, and a number of allegations have come from the other side. Last night we heard alle gations from one side, and they were extremely upsetting, and I am sure if we were to hear the allegations from the other side tonight, we would find them extremely upsetting.

I make the point about the community being dist raught, about the community ailing, about the iilness of the community because I think it makes apparent another point that my col league the Mi ni ster of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs (Mr. Robinson) made in the House today, Mr. Chairperson, and that is the need for healing. The dysfunctional nature of this community is so extreme that the only solution is broad healing. Otherwise, the war will continue. I think that the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs made the point today that even -

July 24, 2002 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 3759 electing another chief will not solve the problem without the healing. The factions will break out again because people are at loggerheads. People are at war with each other, if you will. Towards this end, my colleague the Minis ter of Aborig inal and Northern Affairs has written to his federal counterpart, Robert Nault, and he has requested mediation in order to facil itate and initiate a healing process in that community. Now, I think that is doing something. That indeed is taking some action, and we look for ward to hearing back from Robert Nault.

I know that members opposite will probably appreciate hearing back, too, and would probably appreci ate to hear that there is a mediator. My colleague has made the point to me that this has to be a person of stature, an individual who will com mand the respect of all persons in the com munity. So, Mr. Chairperson, I certainly support the efforts of my colleague, and I certainly want to do my bit. One of the things I am doing, of course, as I have said on the record, is I am meeting with the Dakota Tipi women tomorrow. I believe, on Friday, the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Mackintosh) has a meeting with the Provincial Council of Women, and I will almost certainly join him, time permitting, my

schedule permit ting, to meet with the Provincial Council of Women. You know, Mr. Chairperson, I do think it is important to make the point that it is not gender that is dividing this community. This community is divided. It is a family that is tom apart, and there are men and women on both sides. So I know that members are here and are suggesting that they are championing the rights and lives of women and that women are the ones who are af fected, and, of course, some women are affected, but men and women are both affected. Now, Mr.

Chair person, I am told by my colleague the Minister of Aboriginal and North em Affairs (Mr. Robinson) that this particular issue has been brewing since 19 72, and I sup pose brewing and continuing to grow and fester. It was in 19 72, I believe, that Dakota Tipi was first recognized, now, I think Mr. Dennis Pashe was named the chief in 19 72, or it could have been his father. I am not quite clear on that. What I am clear on is that there has been long-standing conflict and dissension in this community, that there has been allegation of wrongdoing on both sides.

Of course, there were allegations of wrongdoing and dissension and conflict and wife abuse and child abuse and all kinds of things when the members opposite were in government. I did not notice them getting too agitated about it then. I suppose better late than never. So here they are. * (1 5:20) My col league the Mini ster for Aboriginal and Northern Affairs tells me that he has spoken to Grand Chief Dennis White Bird, and that both he and the Grand Chief agree on the necessity for a mediator.

I think this is important, because the Grand Chief and my colleague the Minister for Aboriginal and Northern Affairs are more familia r with the issues and problems on reserves than any of us. They both come from these communities. They are both experienced individuals. They have both occupied leadership roles. Obviously, the Grand Chief is in a leadership role. They understand the Aboriginal culture. They understand their people. They are the best possible champions for the people. They say what is needed in this community is a mediator, and they say that there are serious allegations on both sides.

They assure me that the divisions in this community are not based on gender. So I put forth the suggestion, I endorse the suggestion of my colleague the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, and I would ask members opposite to support that decision and to give some respect to the Grand Chief and to give some respect to my colleague, who is so experienced in these matters, and to come on board. Maybe they would like to send letters of their own to Robert Nault. Maybe they have names to suggest for mediators. I am sure that the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs (Mr.

Robinson) would be pleased to hear from them. So that is where I stand. I stand in support, side by side with my colleagues who are trying

3760 LEGI SLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA July 24, 2002 to solve the problems here, side by side with my colleagues in government who have been con cerned about Aboriginal people for a lot longer than members opposite seem to have been and have come from the communities themselves. So I hope that members opposite will think about the suggestion that my colleague put for ward and give that suggestion a thought and support the minister. Mr. Derka ch: Mr.

Chair, it 1s very dish eartening to hear from the Minister responsible for the Status of Women that she would prefer to stand with her colleague, who has made it very clear in the Hous� that he supports Dennis Pashe as the chief on the reserve, rather than stand with the . women who have been abused and battered and whose child ren have been terrorized on the Dakota Tipi reserve. The minister cautioned me about the fact that I should be asking questions once again that relate only to the Women's Dir ectorate rather than the Lotteri es.

But, yet, the two are inter twined on the reserve and the minister just cannot see through that. Mr. Chair, I would remind also that the mini ster has responsibility and the Dir ectorate has responsibility to work and to influence gov ernment decision making to ensure that the unique needs and concerns of women are inte grated into public policy. That is what is at question here, Mr. Chair, is that the minister is not intervening on behalf of these women who have come to her, who have pleaded with her, who have pleaded with the Minister responsible for the Gaming Com mission (Mr.

Ashton), who have pleaded with the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh) and the Mini ster of Finance (Mr. Seli nger) to intervene to ensure that the money flow that has currently been going to Mr. Pashe will not be going to him, because those monies are being used for him to hire people who are indeed victimizing these women on the reserve. Mr. Chair, I refer the minister to comments made by the Honourable Eric Robinson on July 16 when asked whether or not he still observes and acknowledges that Dennis Pashe continues to be the chief on that reserve.

I remind the minister that the federal government has now washed its hands of Dennis Pashe, and has put in a third party to ensure that the money flowing from the federal government is used for the purposes that it is intended to be used for. It is only this Government, only this minister, who refuses to take the same action or similar action that was taken by the federal government. Mr. Chair, when you look at what the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs (Mr.

Robinson) is saying, one has to question his motive and what connections he has perhaps in this community, because he says, therefore, Chief Pashe and council are officially the leaders of the community until otherwise notified by the Department of Indian Affairs. That notification was given by the federal minister that Chief Pashe was no longer the person in charge, and that there would be a third party put in place to control the finances of that reserve, so that the money that is being afforded to that reserve by the federal government is going to be used for the purposes that it is intended to be used for.

So, Mr. Chair, it seems to me that there is quite a glaring inequity here in how the federal government is treating this reserve and how the provincial Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs is treating this reserve. The Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs made it clear, and on the record, that he chooses to recognize an individual who has been banished, if you like, from his responsibilities by the federal government, and yet this minister chooses to recognize him.

Yesterday, we saw the women come for ward to the committee, and the women indicated very clearly at committee that they are-[inter jection] Oh, the member from Dauphin says that is all crap. The member of Dauphin says that the women who came forward yesterday to put their concerns before the committee, that was all crap. Mr. Chair, I take it from the words of the mem ber from Dauphin who sits across- Point of Order Mr. Ch airperson: Order, please. A point of order, the Member for Dauphin-Roblin.

July 24, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3761 Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauph in-Roblin): Mr. Chairperson, the Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach) can construe anything anyway he likes. He can make up all he likes and try to put it on the record, but I want-[interjection} Mr. Cha irperson: Order, please. Just one per son speak, the person on the floor. If others want to speak, I will recognize you. Mr. Struthers: The part of this that is crap is that the Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach) has been accusing the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs (Mr.

Robinson) of somehow benefiting personally in this whole escapade. He put it on the record in his last statement. I think he should have the courage, should have the backbone to tell us what his accusations are instead of some smear campaign that he has become more accustomed to around this place. If he has an accusation, I say the Member for Russell should put it forward, and then we can examine that. But I do not think he has the guts to do it, Mr. Speaker. * (15 :3 0) Mr. Chair person: On the same point of order, the Member for River East. Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): On the same point of order, Mr.

Chairperson, I saw the minister specifically give the Member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers) a nod to try to en courage him to take the Member for Russell off track. As the Member for Russell stayed on track and was talking about the devastation that the women from Dakota Tipi presented last night, the Member for Dauphin hollered out, "That is crap." I heard it clearly, and I think it shows the calibre and the disrespect of members on the Government's side of the House on a very serious issue, an issue that this Government should be taking seriously.

If they choose to try to derail the discussion and protect the minister from having to answer some very serious ques tions about women, I think that shows a signifi cant disservice to the whole process that we undertake in this Legislature. Mr. Cha irperson: The Member for Russell, on the same point of order. Mr. Derkach: On the same point of order, Mr. Chair. The member from Dauphin-Roblin is try ing to do damage control here because they are embarrassed at their actions and lack of action as a result of last evening and the result of this issue.

The member, I know it slipped, but it really shows his attitude towards these women when he said from his chair that what the women were saying yesterday was crap. I will send that comment far and wide because that is what he said from his chair, and I know that he would like to take those words back, but he did put that on the record. Now he raises a point of order, but my response to his point of order is that indeed he did put this on the record. He deserves what he is going to get, and we will make sure that people far and wide know exactly what he said about them. Mr. Cha irperson: Order, please.

We should not use points of order for debate. It seems like we are using that for debate. If you wish to speak, I will recognize you. The honourable minister, on the same point of order? Ms. McGifford: Yes. Well , Mr. Chair- Mr. Cha irperson: New information? Ms. McGifford: Yes, Mr. Chair. I am truly scandalized at the remarks that the members opposite- Mr. Ch airperson: Excuse me. From both sides I hear people speaking, and I have only recog nized the minister to speak. So I only want to hear the person that I recognize. Ms. McGifford: Well, first the member from- Mr.

Cha irperson: I have not recognized anyone yet. Ms. McGifford: Sorry, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chairperson: We can only have one person speaking, the person that I recognize. Ms. McGifford: Yes. The member from River East has a vivid imagination. I know that

3762 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA July 24, 2002 members opposite used to see Reds under beds, now they see nods when they do not take place. Anyway, Mr. Chair, I do want to point out that I deeply resent the scurrilous remarks of the member from Russell. I know the member from Dauphin to be a champion of the rights of women, and he would not have said anything like what was said.

Now the member opposite, the member from Russell, lost his hiring priv ilege in 1991, his credibility in 2002 when he made personal attacks behind the cover of the Legis lature on certain employees, and today he has lost his integrity. Thank you. Mr. Cha irperson: I thank the minist er. We are using points of order for debate. I would just like to say the honourable Member . for Dauphin Roblin (Mr. Struthers) has no point of order, but I would like to caution all members to pick and choose their words very carefully. * * * Mr.

Chai rperson: Excuse me, I would like to recognize now, give the floor to the Member for Russell. Continue. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, I was talking about the Minister responsible for the Status of Women (Ms. McGif ford), and her responsibilities as the Minister responsible for the Status of Women, to stand up for women who come forward in a public way to express their concern about how they are treated, how their chi ldren are treated, how their families are treated.

These women came forward in a very public way in committee last night, and the minister says that she stands with her colleague the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, who said on July 16 , and I quote, therefore, Chief Pashe is counci l, and council are officially the leaders of the community, until otherwise notified by the Department of Indian Affairs. That notification was given by the federal minister some time before that.

So I ask the motive of this minist er, I ask the motive of this Government to continue to recognize a chief who has been replaced by a third party on both issues, the financial issue and the health issue. That chief and band council have been replaced, and yet this Government, this Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs continues to recognize that chief who has now been out lawed. This mini ster says she stands with her colleague the Mini ster of Aboriginal and North em Affairs. Ms. McG ifford: I was standing with the women. Mr. Derkach: She does not stand with the women, Mr.

Chair, who were abused, the women who are battered, the women who came forward with scars on their faces from being battered. She does not stand for those women; she stands with her colleague the Minis ter of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, who still supports Chief Pashe. Mr. Chair, the reason we raise this concern is because we have an issue before us that I have never seen in front of this Legisl ature in 16 or 17 years that I have been here. I have never seen this kind of an issue. I have never seen a woman with scars come before a committee and plead for help.

She pleaded with the Minis ter of the Status of Women; she pleaded with the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh); she pleaded with the Minis ter responsible for the Gaming Com mission (Mr. Ashton) to do something. She did not say go after the guy who beat me up. She did not say that. All she was asking for the Government to do was to exercise its responsibilities and, No. 1, to curtail the gaming agreement so that the source of money could be cut off from the people who are using it against these women. That is what they were asking for. So, I ask, Mr.

Chair, why the minister, who is supposed to be standing side-by-side with those women, is not doing that. Instead, she says she stands with her colleague the Mini ster of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs. Mr. Ch airperson: Honourable minist er, con tinue. Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chairperson, as I was saying, I believe the member has taken the words of the Minister of Aboriginal and North em Affairs (Mr. Robinson) out of context. He may have quoted a line or two, but he did not -

July 24, 2002 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 3763 quote the mm1ster entirely and completely, because it is, of course, a very deli cate question for the Mini ster of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, as it is a delicate question for every body, but particularly for mini sters like the Min ister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs and like the Mini ster of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh), because it is extremely important that these individuals not appear to take sides.

As I have said and, I think, spent some time indicating to members opposite, there are many factions in this community, many factions who are at odds with one another, who are in conflict with one another. * (15: 40) You know, the Member for Russell says, well, you did not stick up for these women. I think I did. I think I li stened to those women with an open heart and an open mind. I am meet ing with those women tomorrow. As I indicated, though, there could be another faction of women come in tonight from the same reserve and tell some very di fferent stories.

It would be my responsibility to lis ten to those women in the same kind of way. So I think what the members are not recog nizing is that this is a very factious community. Consequently, one needs to be open to all parts of this community. That certainly is the respon sibility of the Mini ster of Aboriginal and North em Affairs. Now, I believe what the Mini ster of Aborig inal and Northern Affairs has maintained, and this is a bit di fferent from, new information per haps for the members opposite, is that although Robert Nault said he is going to invoke

section 74 of the Indian Act, the information that the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs has been able to obtain by phoning the office is that he has not yet invoked it. I think he said, I be lieve he indica ted that since

section 74 of the Indian Act, the federal Indian Act, has not yet been invoked, although communication has gone forth that it is going to be invoked, until it is actually invoked, Dennis Pashe is the chief. I think the members opposite could do a great service to Dakota Tipi instead of creating a ruckus at this table by phoning up Robert Nault, and saying, please hurry up and invoke this

section 74 so we can get down to business in the province of Manitoba. But why will they not do that? Because there is all this political grand standing, this newfound role as champion of women, champion of Aboriginal affairs. So that is why they are not doing that. They could help this matter along by phoning Robert Nault.

They could help this mat ter along by embracing the decision of Chief Dennis White Bi rd and my colleague the Minis ter of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs to promote the idea of a mediator, which could heal this community, not put the community at odds, but actually try that very difficult work of healing. But then there would be no news and members would not be able to come to this table and carry on in the way in which they are carrying on. I do want to say, and I am going to end rather quickly, but there are a couple of other things that I want to say.

One of them was that the member from Russell said that Diana Traverse was there pleading with the Mini ster for the Status of Women, pleading with the Mini ster for Gaming (Mr. Ashton), who was not, of course, part of the committee, so it would be very hard to plead with him. Of course, he could do that through Hansard, I suppose. But really what Diana Traverse was there for was to oppose a bill that was before the committee. That is what she came to address and that is what she addressed. That is what she came to address.

Diana Traverse is going to be in my office speaking to me tomorrow morning, as I have told the member several times. So she was there last night along with her colleagues in order to address a bill. Let us be clear as to why Diana Traverse was there. The other thing is I really find it offensive when the member opposite puts nasty, con descending remarks about my colleague the Mini ster of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs (Mr. Robinson) on the record when the minis ter himself is not here.

I know he likes to hide behind the privilege of the House and the im munity that the House gives him, and he will say any old thing, as people in this committee can hear. He is not very �areful about what he says. I

37 64 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA July 24, 2002 have had that experience with him before, have it every day, sometimes every day, Mr. Chair person, but my colleague is not here, and I do want to put on the record that I think it is offensive to speak about people in that nasty way when they are not present. Just to kind of sum up and to review, the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs was careful in what he put on the record because he needs not to choose sides. He needs to be in a position of balance. He is one who, along with Chief Dennis White Bird, wants to recommend a mediator.

If he is going to be part and parcel of that recommendation, of course, he cannot be associa ted with one faction, and he cannot be associated with another faction. He needs to have, and I know that my colleague the Minister of Finance (Mr. Sel inger) will greatly appreciate that, he needs to have what the 19 th century renaissance novelist Herman Melville called the "equal eye." That has always been his position. Mr. Chairperson, as he said in the House, since

section 74 of the Indian Act has not been invoked, although Robert Nault said he is going to invoke it, my colleague has no choice but to recognize Chief Pashe. So, with those remarks, I am sure members opposite wish to continue the Estimates of the Status of Women. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chair, I would like to ask the minist er: Who will be attending the meeting tomorrow morning with the minister, besides the council and the Women's Directorate? Which women from the community will be there? Ms. McGifford: Well, Mr.

Chair, who is attending the meeting tomorrow: Kim Clare, who is chair of the Manitoba Advisor y Council; Theresa Harvey Pruden, ADM from the Women's Directorate; my special assistant, Doreen Wilson, will be present. We will have Diana Jones, a woman from Policy, and the Minister of Family Services and Ho using (Mr. Sale) has offered to attend and quite likely will have somebody from Family Violence. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I said besides staff. Which women from the com munity will be attending? Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I do not have a complete list from the community.

I know that two names, Diana Traverse will be present and who else?-of course, Margery Prince. There are several other women from the community, but those are the two that stick with me right now. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chair, will anyone from the Provincial Council of Women of Manitoba be there? Ms. McGifford: No, Mr. Chair, the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh) and I are meeting \Vith the Provincial Council of Women on Friday morning. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chair, did the Provincial Council of Women of Manitoba make a request to accompany the women from Dakota Tipi? Ms.

McGifford: I am told that the Provincial Council of Women did want to come to the meeting, but I had asked my assistant that we meet only with the women from Dakota Tipi. Mrs. Mitchelson: But, when I wrote to the minister, it was as a result of the Provincial Council of Women of Manitoba writing to our Leader and our caucus indicating some concern about the issues that were going on at Dakota Tipi, and about how the women had issues and concerns.

The Provincial Council of Women indicated that they had been advocating for and working with the women on Dakota Tipi for several months and were really concerned about the women's issues. They asked for a meeting with us. We and several members of our caucus met with the Provincial Council of Women of Manitoba and the women from Dakota Tipi, and, as a result of that, I wrote to the minister, because they had indicated that they had request ed meetings with the Government without suc cess. So I wrote to the minister.

Because the Provincial Council of Women have been advocates and have been working with those women, I wonder why the minister would not meet with the group together. Why would she say, no, we will not meet with you; we will only meet with the women from Dakota Tipi? -

July 24, 2002 LEGISL ATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 3765 They are women who have been working together for months. Why would she deny them the opportunity to meet together? * (15: 50) Ms. McGifford: I want to remind the member that she is not in charge of my meetings at this point, and I will make my own decisions about whom I meet wit h and when. Mr. Chair, as I have said, we have chosen to meet with the women from Dakota Tipi tomor row and wit h the Provincial Council of Women meeting on Wednesday. Mrs.

Mitchelson: It seems like the minister has got a cadre of about 10 or 12 people from gov ernment and her minist ers and colleagues, and yet she denied the women of Dakota Tipi from having their advocates, the Provincial Council of Women, come to that meeting. Are they going to have two or three or four women from that community who have been abused and treated in the way they have and not allow them to have their advocates at the table? I find it absolutely disturbing, Mr. Chairman, to think that she would want to divide. Then what is she afraid of?

What is she afraid of as the Minister responsible for the Status of Women? This is unbelievable. Also, the women from Dakota Tipi indicated that the minist er would only meet with them if, in fact, they agreed not to raise the Lotteries issue. Was that one of the prerequisites or pre conditions of the minister agreeing to meet with those women? Ms. McGifford: There are six or seven women from Dakota Tipi meeting with us tomorrow morning. The members have been talking about these women and the speeches they made last night. Mr.

Chairperson, they certainly were very powerful women, who were certainly not- An Honourable Member: Powerful women? When they were beat up? Ms. McGifford: Powerful women as they spoke, and I have every-settle down, Len. Come on. Take a deep breath. You will be okay. Mr. Chair, I have every confidence that we will have a very productive meeting. Mrs. Mitchelson: The minister did not answer my question. Did she place the stipulation on those women that they could not discuss Lot teries at this meeting? Was that one of the con ditions she put on meeting with them? Ms.

McGifford: I have stipulated that I am not talking about Lotteries in the Estimates for the Status of Women. Mrs. Mitchelson: I am asking a very direct question of the minister. When she agreed to meet with the women from Dakota Tipi, did she say that she would only meet with them on the condition that they would not discuss the Lot teries issue? Ms. McGifford: I am not speaking about Lot teries at this table. Mrs. Mitchelson: Well, Mr. Chairperson, I am asking a direct question. Did she put conditions on the women of Dakota Tipi before she would agree to meet with them? Ms. McGifford: Mr.

Chairperson, I asked the women of Dakota Tipi to submit an agenda of items that we would discuss. Mrs. Mitchelson: Did the minister or anyone from her office or staff indicate to the women from Dakota Tipi that there would be certain issues that they would not be allowed to discuss at the meeting with her? Ms. McGifford: I asked that the women submit an agenda for the meeting. I think that is a very common thing with ministers. I did it with the women from Dakota Tipi, and they were happy to submit an agenda. Mrs.

Mitchelson: If the mm1ster could just answer yes or no and clear the air, let us know, did anyone indica te to them that there were certain items that they could not put on the agenda? Ms. McGifford: As I have said, I asked that an agenda be submitted, and the women complied.

3766 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 24, 2002 Mrs. Mitchelson: Well, Mr. Chair, this is absolutely unbelieva ble. We have a Mi nister responsible for the Status of Women who indi cates that there is a community that is having great dif ficulty and that there is a healing pro cess that needs to take place, Mr. Chair, and that there needs to be a mediator appointed, although the federal government decided that no money would flow through the hands of Dennis Pashe until a proper election was held in the com munity.

They took the appropriate action and put the dollars that flow from the federal govern ment into thir d party hands to manage the affairs of the money that flowed from the federal gov ernment onto that reserve. This minister and her Government have refused to do the same with Lotteries revenue. Now the minister says we need a mediator because both sides need to come together, and we need an equal level playing field. Well, where is the level playing field when Dennis Pashe controls the lottery dollars that are flowing on reserve, and he refuses to give the women and the child ren money so they can buy food?

They have to come into the city of Win nipeg to a food bank in order to sustain themselves. Where is the level playing field? How do you mediate when one side has all the money flowing to them and the other side is impoverished, in poverty, cannot feed themselves, cannot feed their child ren and are beaten on a regular basis? They are oppressed, Mr. Chair, and yet the mini ster says we need a mediator because we need a level playing field, and I think she used the word "equal eye." I am not sure, I did not read the book that she talked about.

Where is the equality when the person that has been in control still is in control, when the federal government has recognized and realized that he should not have the dollars flow through his hands to support his community, yet this minister and her Government are saying, well, that is okay, we want to bring both sides together? We will leave all of the money in the hands of the chief , who has been alleged to have the police force in that community in his back pocket, and he is paying them.

We have oppressed women that cannot feed their chi ldren, that are being beaten, that are being abused, that their child ren are fearing for their safety. These women are fearing for their lives, and the minister says we will mediate it. Well, great solace, great comfort to those women and those children.

I find it absolutely disgusting when we have a minister who sits here and will not answer a direct question, is trying to gag those women and saying I will meet with you, I will be your advocate, but we will only be able to discuss certain things, and if you want to discuss other things, you are not welcome in my office. You are not welcome in our Government's offices. That is absolutely unbelievable.

Then, when she tells me that the Provincial Council of Women of Manitoba who have been working with and helping these women, helping to empower these women to speak out and stand up for their rights, have asked to be a part of that meeting, the mini ster says: No, I will not meet with you together. You have to come at a separate time. Mr.

Chair, I would like to ask the minister how she believes that is a fair process, how she believes that by telling women, demanding, dic tating to women that they can come into her office but only under her conditions, that that is dealing, and advocating and li stening to women that are oppressed, that are living in poverty, that are living in Thir d World conditions right in our own backyard. She does not have the common courtesy or decency to give them a full hearing and listen to all of their issues, and then take that information back to her colleagues around the Cabinet table who can make some decisions.

Why, in fact, she would continue to flow money to those individuals in that community that are using that money in order to oppress and keep those women down. Ms. McGifford: Well, Mr. Chair, there did not seem to be much of a question there. But I do bring to the member's attention, one more time, that it is not uncommon for mini sters to request an agenda before a meeting, and I have re quested an agenda. There is an agenda for this meeting, and there are several women coming and that is the end of the story. Mrs. Mitchelson: Again, I find it absolutely unbelievable.

We have a member of the Legis lature, a minister of a Crown, a minister respon sible to advocate on behalf of the Status of -

July 24, 2002 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 3767 Women, a person in a position of power and authority who can make a dif ference. Mr. Daryl Reid, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Mr. Chair, I find it unbelievable that she would place these kinds of restrictions on women, vulnerable women, women who do not have the ability, do not have a penny in their pockets, are not being given adequate support by a person in their community, a person who said we will not give you welfare. Take your kids and go somewhere else to get enough food in your household to feed them. We do not care what you do.

We believe that if we keep you oppressed and poor, that we can control. * (1 6:00) This is one of the worst cases of that kind of control and power that I have seen, and you have women crying out. You have women crying out for a government who knew last September what was going on in Dakota Tipi, who knew and have had other women in the community, the Provincial Council of Women, who have had some real concerns about what is happening right here in Dakota Tipi, and this is under this mini ster's watch.

I know that the m1mster may smirk and smile and tum her head si deways and think that this is a silly issue, but I want to tell her that it is not a si lly issue to many women throughout the province of Manitoba. It is not a silly issue to many Aborginal women throughout the province of Manitoba, and it is not a new issue. Mr. Chair, when we look at the attitude of this Mini ster responsible for the Status of Women (Ms.

McGif ford), who is dealing with some of the most vulnerable women with very vulnerable issues in our community, and we see the kind of attitude that she has, the way she tries to divide and conquer, the way she looks at her office as being a place where she must have control and she must dominate, it sounds like she is a bit like Chief Pashe, if she can dominate and control the agenda and divide the women and say, no, I will not meet with your advocates. I will meet with you under my conditions, in my office, under the cir cumstances that I dictate; then you can have my ear and you can walk into my office.

Well, Mr. Chair, I find it absolutely incredi ble. Quite frankly, the mini ster is part of a party that prides itself on their stands on dealing with women and women's issues, and I want to indica te to you that from what I have seen in the way this minister has handled the women from Dakota Tipi, I see that much of what her party talks about is all words and no action. She believes that the flowery words are good enough: We will consult; we will mediate; we will bring in justice. But when? But when, Mr. Chair? These women brought issues to this Govemment's attention back last September.

The Provincial Council of Women have been advo cating on their behalf, have been working with them, could not get a meeting with govemment, but met with the Opposition a month and a half ago. As a result of the serious issues, I wrote to the minist er and asked her to set up a meeting. I had to wait until questions were asked in the House, until she took the issue of setting up a meeting seriously, but when she did, she put conditions on the women. She put those women down and said, you cannot bring the Provincial Council of Women, your advocates, with you, or I will not meet with you.

There are certain issues we cannot discuss, or I will not meet with you. Now, Mr. Chair, I find that absolutely astounding, and I think that the minister owes these women an explanation. I would like to ask the minister: If we asked the Provincial Council of Women whether they might want to attend the meeting tomorrow morning with the women from Dakota Tipi, would she agree to that request? Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I notice that mem bers opposite have suddenly become converts to the Status of Women. It certainly was not in evidence when they were in government.

Cer tainly, there was no evidence that they were champions of Aboriginal people when they were in government. They certainly, when they were in govemment, demonstrated no interest in the Dakota Tipi question. But, just speaking about the status of women, I notice that when they

37 68 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA July 24, 2002 were in government their concern for the status of women did not prevent them from firing a thousand nurses, did not prevent them from trying to privatize home care when most of the workers, I think 90-some percent were not only women but many of them immigr ant women who lived on very low incomes. It certainly did not prevent them from instituting the welfare snitch line. Point of Order The Acting Chair person (Mr. Dar yl Reid): Order, please. The Member for River East, on a point of order. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chair, this does not do much for the women who are being beaten, abused and oppressed as we speak under this minist er's watch. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Daryl Reid): Madam Mini ster, on the same point of order. Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, on the same point of order. My point was exactly that the members opposite did not do much for women when they were in government. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Daryl Reid): It is the ruling of the Chair that there is no point of order; it is a dispute over the facts. *** The Acting Chai rperson (Mr. Daryl Reid): Madam Minis ter, to continue. Ms. McGifford: Yes, Mr.

Chair, I was pointing out that members who suddenly have become concerned about the lives and rights of women did not demonstrate this enthusiasm and zeal when they were in government. I pointed out the welfare snitch line which of course our Minister for Family Services di sbanded almost immedi ately. It encouraged dissension among the recipi ents of social assistance. I remember when the member opposite was Minis ter of Family Ser vices and she was proposing workforce.

It certainly did not seem to me that she was par ticularly interested in the lives and rights of women when she was interested in workforce, workfare, pardon me, workfare. She also was part of a government that denied families the National Child Benefit. Her regime took pay equity to court and did not find enough money to fund child care. So you know there is no record there. I really do not understand why this minis ter feels that she can get on her high horse and preach to everybody else. The Acting Chair person (Mr.

Daryl Reid): Is it the will of the committee to take a five-minute recess? [Agreed] Agreed, five-minute recess. We will reconvene at 4:15. The committee recessed at 4: 10p .m. The committee resumed at 4:23 p.m. Mr. Chairperson in the Chair Mr. Chairperson: The honourable minister had the floor before the break. Ms. McGifford: Yes, Mr. Chair, and I was just talking about the fact that members opposite have suddenly become converts on the status of women.

Of course, their conversion is appreci ated because the more champions we have in this province, the more champions of the lives and rights of women, the better for all of us. I do want to note, Mr. Chair, that their passion and commitment, zeal and enthusiasm for the status of women was not really in evid ence when they were in government. I was talking about some of the things that they either did or they did not do. They, for example, fired a thousand nurses. I do not see that as really cham pioning the causes of women. I mean, women need jobs; Manito ba needed nurses. That was not really very helpful.

They tried to privatize home care, and I had the percentage, but over whelmingly the percentage is women and many of them immigrants, but that did not stop them; they tried to privatize it. But the opposition of the day was extremely strong and opposed it, and the health care workers themselves went on strike, so they had to back down on that one. Members opposite instituted the welfare snitch line. It does not seem to me that was in -

July 24, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 3769 the interests of anybody. It just encouraged a sneakiness and false reporting, and our Mini ster of Family Services and Housing (Mr. Sale) was quite di sturbed by that, and as soon as we came into government, he quite rightly cancelled it, and we are proud of that action. Well, when they were last in government, just in their dying days, they proposed the workfare bill. I am sure that members opposite remember that. They did, however, have the good sense not to proclaim that bill, which was a good idea.

I was talking about how they denied families the National Child Benefit which is particularly hard since families on welfare certainly need it. Earlier in their mandate they took pay equity to court. Well, what a way to champion the rights of women. Take pay equity to court. Anyway, they did it. Their record in child care was pretty dismal. They introduced a $2.6 0 payment which was required by poor women who were using sub sidiz ed child care, very hard for them. There were insufficient spaces. They also had a low minimum wage. Our Minister of Labour (Ms.

Barrett) reviews the wage frequently, once a year, and has made promises to do that on a yearly basis. That certainly is in the interests of women. They reduced ACCESS programs at post secondary institutions. Many women, particu larly poor women, and I might add particularly Aboriginal women, were greatly affected by this because ACCESS programs are programs that attracted many Aboriginal women. I am glad members have seen the lig ht. I am glad they are now going to be onside when it comes to women's initiatives but, as I say, it is a late conversion. Mr. Derkach : Mr.

Chair, very briefly, you know, the minister I think will be embarrassed by her comments on the record when she reads them back some day to her grandchild ren because the point of fact is that we are asking questions about a current situation which is occurring in this province which probably is unfolding in some way as we sit here in this Legislature. We have asked as a result of the information that has been brought to our attention by the women from Dakota Tipi that some action be taken by this Government.

This Government may choose not to act or they may choose to act in a specific way, but they are the Government. This is the Mini ster responsible for the Status of Women. We are asking her about what action she is prepared to take to ensure that the safety of the women and the chil dren and their families is secure on Dakota Tipi. Because from the evidence that was presented last ni ght-yes, we were only shown one side of the story, that is true, but if there was another side to that story why did it not come forward? Where were those people who could present to the Legisl ature their side of the story?

Why did that side of the story have to be given to the members of Government in brown envelopes, as was alleged by Mr. Newman? If that in fact is an open process, then where were those people who were representing the other side of the issue? It is hard for me to imagine what the other side of the issue is when I am confronted in the committee as a member of that committee, or member of the Legisl ature, and the woman who is appearing before us is pleading with the minist er who is sitting in the committee, and she is saying look at the evidence on my face. That is pretty stark for all of us.

The mini ster said she was moved by that as well. If she was moved I am asking her what action she is prepared to take on behalf of these women to ensure that when they go to. bed tonight they can do so with the feeling of security for themselves and their families. I thought about the women going home last night. If the people from the other side, the people who they were alleging to have done what they had done to them, were at all listening, I wondered what their lives would be like when they went to their homes, to their beds and to their families.

I ask you around this table what you would feel like going home to a situation where there was uncertainty, insecurity and indeed fear for the lives of your chil dren and yourself.

3770 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA July 24, 2002 So, Mr. Chair, what will the minister say if one of these women should happen to be beaten tonight or today, should happen to lose her life or one of the lives of their families? What is this minister going to say at that juncture? Because we have raised this issue with this minist er. We have asked her for some action on behalf of these women. We can go on with political rhetoric here forever and we can have a he says-she says show, and then we can go away from here and think we have done our job, but we have not.

What I am asking the minister to do is to take some action on behalf of these women. Now, she says, oh, this is a hom-again approach by the Conservatives. She can call it what she likes, Mr. Chair. * (I 6:30 ) Mr. Chair, I can go through a lit any of things that our government did when we were in power, to enhance the Status of Women in this province. Maybe we did not do enough. Maybe we should have done more. Maybe this Government needs to do more.

We are calling on this Government, at this point in time, to do something with respect to the situation that was brought to this Government's attention back in September. I think the Government shows some lack of respect for these peopl

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-3-70
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 3rd hansardpdf 70.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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