Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 51B (35th Legislature, 2nd Session)

35-2-51b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Second Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocsn Speaker VOL. XL No. 518 -a p.m., MONDAY, MAY 27, 1991 Printed by the Office of the Quee ns Printer. Province of Msnltoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature LIB - Liberal; ND - New Democrat; PC - Progressive Conservative NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMM INGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRI EDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MclNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROGAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary WASYL YCIA- LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington Crescentwood River Heights Radisson The Maples Kil don an Portage la Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas lnkster The Pas St. Norbert Elm wood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River PARTY.

LIB ND ND LIB LIB ND LIB ND PC PC PC PC ND ND PC PC PC LIB PC PC ND ND PC PC ND LIB PC ND PC ND LIB ND PC ND PC ND PC PC PC PC PC PC PC ND PC ND PC PC PC PC ND PC ND PC PC ND ND

2542 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, May 27, 1991 The House met at 8 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-URBAN AFFAIRS Mr. Deputy Chairman (Marcel Laurendeau): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This evening this

section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, will resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Urban Affairs. When the comm ittee last sat it had been considering item 3. Ur ban Policy Agreement Management, 3.(

a) Salaries $430,000, on page 15 3 of the Estimates book and on pages 27 and 28 of the Supplementary Information book. We were also dealing with a number of other items. Ms. Jean Friesen (Wo lsele y) : Mr. Deputy Chairman, I think at the end of the last session we were looking at the difference between

definitions of public and private sector. I was a little puzzled by the minister's definition of private sector, that somebody who se salary is paid and who is appointed by the government, indirectly paid but certainly directly appointed, is private sector. I wonder if we could perhaps clear up those

definitions. We seem to be operating on different assumptions. Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Deputy Chairman, I think what the member for Wolseley is referring to is a suggestion that-in fact, I am not even certain exactly what she is referring to. The boards of those two corporations are appointed by the government. They are, save for the exception of one member from each level of government on The Forks Renewal board, private citizens who are appointed as custodians of the board from time to time to deal with the issues related to the mandates of those two corporations.

If her concern is that the civil servant that is appointed there by each level of government is not in the same sense a private citizen as the other members are, she is correct. Those civil servants are appointed there to represent directly the interests of each level of government on The Forks Renewal Corporation board, as far as I understand it at least anyway. Ms. Friesen: No, that was not what I meant, Mr. Deputy Chairman, but I thank the minister for the answer, because it does help me understand his approach to the issue.

I wonder if he could describe for me, as the minister appoints members to those boards, what does he assume their responsibilities are? Mr.

Ernst: I would assume that the responsibilities of those board members relate firstly to carry out the mandate of the corporation as set out initially; where issues arise, from time to time, consult with the parties who appointed them, that is, the municipal people would consult with the Winnipeg City Council, the provincial people with us and the federal people with their respective levels of government when it reaches points of major deviation from policy; and a general ongoing consultation process. *

(2005) Ms. Friesen: That is what I wanted to make sure of. When he said they were private citizens, they are priv ate citizens who have a twofold responsibility then, one to the people who appointed them and the other to the board to which they are appointed. Are we agreed on that? Okay. Could I pursue then a little bit the North Portage Corporation? One of the questions that I have raised from time to time, and I believe the minister has had correspondence on that this year as I have, is the issue of private policing of North Portage. This is a question that we will be asking the North Portage people themselves.

Since the minister does have appointed members on that board, I wonder if he has discussed this issue with them and raised with them the concerns that have been brought to his attention. Mr. Ernst: I am assuming now that you are talking about the security guards in the shopping centre? Ms. Friesen: Yes. Mr. Ernst: The short answer to the member for Wolseley is no. I have not spoken with regard to security guards in Portage Place, but I can also say

2543 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 1991 that the North Portage Development Corporation leased the land to Cadillac Fairview Corporation for 75 years or so, a long-term lease of the land, upon which the agreement or the concurrence of Cadillac Fairview was to build a shopping centre and to operate it in the manner, I guess, in which they operate shopping centres right across the country.

I am peripherally aware, shall we say, I have not delved into it to any great extent, of some concerns that have occurred from time to time with regard to the private security guards there, but I have not discussed the matter with the North Portage board. I am not certain, Mr. Deputy Chairman, as to what potential exists for North Portage to have any control over what security arrangements Cadillac Fairview have in their own shopping centre. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, I notice the minister assumes that Cadillac Fairview can, and I assume should be, in his view, operating this shopping centre in ways in which they operate across the country, but I wonder if the minister would agree that this particular operation of Cadillac Fairview is essentially covering public space, the former Portage Avenue, and that it was done with a considerable amount of public money, so that on two issues, it seems to me, that it is different from other shopping centres and that there ought to be a public interest in the public space, the street, of that particular shopping centre.

Mr. Ernst: Again, I am not as intimately familiar perhaps with the development of that space. I am assuming the member is referring to the Kennedy and Edrn onton Streets that would have been closed. If they are closed, I am assuming-again, we can all delve into this a little bit more. It might more appropriately be asked of the North Portage board, but if the streets are closed, then they are no longer public rights-of-way . They are, in fact, property owned and ceded by the city to the North Portage Development Corporation as part of the original agreement. Again, I do not know.

There are a number of things that I have yet to look into as the minister responsible for these things and will be doing that in the course of my duties. In the sense that, yes, it is public land, but the public sold its rights to the land by virtue of a long-term lease in exchange for compensation and in exchange for the construction of the shopping centre that occurred.

So in a sense, while it is public land, it is no longer public in the sense that the rights to the public use of the land, the rights to public ownership of the land have, in fact, transferred for a period of time, the term of the lease, to the North Portage board. For the public amenity areas though, I am advised, within the shopping centre there is a joint committee between Cadillac Fairview and North Portage to plan the public use of that space, but I gather not rela ted di rectly to the secu rity arrangements for the entire premises. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, what I wanted to raise with the minister is the issue of principle that is involved when public money is transferred essentially to a private corporation for land which was in the public domain. It seems to me that with a publicly appointed board there ought to be some continuing public interest, particularly in the security and policing aspects of that. I have raised it with the North Portage Development Corporation, but it was subsequent to the last Estimates procedures, so I did not have the opportunity to come back to the department with this. * (2010 ) Mr.

Ernst: If the member for Wolseley likes, I can look into the question with the North Portage board and see what arrangements or what potential there is for-I am sure there is ongoing discussion on a regular basis, but whether there is any direct potential for involvement I am not sure. I will have to investigate. Ms.

Friesen: I am raising this also because, subsequent to the appearance of the North Portage people here, a number of people have raised this issue, and I believe the minister or perhaps his predecessor received correspondence from a number of people at the University of Manitoba on this, particularly people in the Department of Native Studies. Mr. Ernst: I could be mistaken, I do not recollect receiving any direct correspondence with regard to that issue. It may have happened prior to my corning.

I do not recollect anything specific, but we will investigate the situation and see what, firstly, the department has on file and then, secondly, what North Portage has to say about it. Ms. Friesen: Thank you. Could I continue then, Mr. Deputy Chairman, and look at some of the more recent activities of North Portage, and that is the development of the south side, which I believe has always been part of the mandate of North Portage, but has not always been addressed perhaps with

May 27, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2544 the attention which they are giving it now? I wonder if the minister could give us an update from his perspective, the perspective of urban policy, the development of downtown Winnipeg, and perhaps some comments on the policies that are being pursued by North Portage. Mr. Ernst: Interestingly enough, when the original proposal for redevelopment of the north side of Portage Avenue occurred back in 19 78 maybe or '79, somewhere around that area-no, I guess it would have been after that, maybe early '80s.

In any event there was a proposal to utilize the existing right-of-way of Portage Avenue as the mall space, and to incorporate the south side of Portage Avenue as one side of the shopping centr e and to incorporate new construction as the other side of the centre mall shopping centre and in fact reroute Portage Avenue around the north side of the proposed new shopping centre. There were a number of innovative initiatives related to the heating and cooling of that particular structure, and so on.

I happened to support that position when I was on council and thought it was a very innovative idea, anticipating at the time that problems might occur with the south side of Portage Avenue, as they ultimately did. -(i nterjection)- Th at is right, and we ha d a nu mb er of opportunities, we thought, to incorporate that. Unfortu nately, it was a little ahead of its time perhaps, in the sense that the fear of the public for the relocation of Portage Avenue would have been-- you know, it is a major change.

There was an awful lot of controversy over that issue and ultimately the decision was taken out of the hands of those who supported it and went in a different direction, the current direction. That is a little bit of historical perspective on where, I happen to think, it should have gone. In any event, with regard to the current situation, North Portage and South Side merchants are dealing. They have an improvement program; they have ongoing meetings, and so on. There have been some improvements, as a matter of fact.

It started, I guess, about a year ago, and we have seen some improveme nts in terms of new commercial being located on the south side of Portage Avenue. There is one landholder who owns a significant portion of the land on the south side now, has acquired that over a period of time, and hopes to do a redevelopment of it. * (201 5) That is about as much as I can tell you at the moment. I do not have a current status report on every issue or every specific related to that particular initiative. I think, by and large, that they are working co-operatively together.

They see the value of ensuring that the commercial development on both sides of Portage Avenue is as healthy as it can be. I will be again meeting with North Portage to discuss a number of issues, that being one of them, to get a current status report. I have not yet had the opportunity to do that. Ms. Friesen: I was not asking for detail material at this point because we will have the opportunity to talk to North Portage.

What I was looking for was some indication of the minister's support or level of support for the strategy that the corporation seems to be developing in terms of-I am looking for the right term-cut-price retailing. There must be a regular term for that. Discount, that is it, discount retailing for the south side of Portage. Does the minister have any comment on that approach? Mr.

Ernst: Apparently, the concept of-ag ain I am advised by staff on this point-discount retailing, if you like, was an initiative that came forward from the South Side merchants themselves as a potential for utilization of existing vacant space and along that line. I am sorry. It was originated by the businesses and a consultant that was involved at the time. From what I gather, it did not come from North Portage. It came from their perspective as they thought that this was something that would be viable.

Of course, I guess, ultimately the viability of commercial along the south side of Portage Avenue is something that we are all interested in to ensure that we have a healthy, vibrant principal street. Ms. Friesen: I think the consultant was paid for by North Portage. Mr. Ernst: The consultant, yes-I am advised by staff the consultant was paid by North Portage, but the consultant to work with the business people on the south side of Portage Avenue- ultimately, it was the interaction between the private businesses on the south side of Portage Avenue and the consultant that developed that strategy. Ms.

Friesen: I understand that it is acceptable to the South Side merchants at this stage, given absence of any other options in Winnipeg, but what I am asking for, since North Portage paid for this and

2545 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 1991 initiated it and it is part of North Portage's mandate, what is the position of the government on this type of strategy for Winnipeg's main street? Mr. Ernst: I do not know that we have a specific position one way or the other with respect to the methodology to be used by commercial merchants. Interestingly enough, the development bylaws, the zoning bylaws, and so on, do not discriminate over one form of retailer or another. They simply permit retail or commercial development or activity.

Even if, I suppose, we might all like to have Rodeo Drive down Portage Avenue, or we might not, but I think what is most important is that you have a healthy, economically viable commercial activity zone that provides jobs and provides commercial activity to make sure that the space is viable. I am advised that this position, this particular recommendation, I gather was not accepted either by North Portage or by the commercial operators. In fact, they have gone off in a different direction with a proposed incentive program funded by North Portage for storefront improvements and things of that nature. •

(2020) Ms. Fries en : I tha nk the mi ni ste r for that information. The last time we had North Portage her e it did seem as though tha t report was acceptable to both sides, so it is interesting that they have not eventually come to that agreement. I wonder, are the two strat egies mutually exclusive? It does not seem to me that they would be. Mr. Ernst: I suppose ultimately if somebody wants to run a commercial discount store in a space that is properly zoned in a building that is vacant and available for lease that they can do that.

I think what we are talking about is in terms of incentives and assistance that North Portage might be able to provide. It was, I gather, North Portage's position and the ultimate position of the merchants association that they would not provide incentives or assistance toward that kind of activity. It can happen if it happens, it can happen anywhere, but they are not going to assist it financially, or at least I gather that is the position that they ultimately took. Ms.

Friesen: In the discussions that the minister has had with the City of Winnipeg delegation or perhaps with the research and review that this particular

section of the department has done on Plan Winnipeg, the Plan Winnipeg review, has there been any consideration of a long-term business development plan for the city of Winnipeg downtown business area, and where does this fit with the kind of strategies that are being developed by what the minister would call the private sector, that is, North Portage. Mr. Ernst: It has been identified, Mr. Deputy Chairman, as a shortcoming of the current Plan Winnipeg.

We have asked the city to address that issue in terms of its review of Plan Winnipeg over the next year or so and, of course, Winnipeg 2000 itself is going to be interested in that as well, so they will be providing some input, I am assuming, along the way as well. Ms. Friesen: I have no further questions on this area. Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): The minister was in cabinet but not the Minister of Urban Affairs during the Place Promenade episode, to find a neutral term to describe that

chapter in Winnipeg history. Can the minister tell us what the vacancy rate is at Place Promenade currently? Oh, she is ready. Mr. Ernst: I am advised it is approximately 8 percent. Mr. Carr: Eight percent. Can the minister tell us if the corporation had to engage in some discounting in order to fill the vacancies at Place Promenade? Were prices dropped, given the fact that the market is depressed at the moment, or is that the full retail? Mr. Ernst: I think that is referring to residential, not commercial. Mr. Carr: Did the corporation discount or lower the rents in order to attract customers in a tough market?

Mr. Ernst: The answer is, basically, I am not sure. I guess there is always a balance between what you can do on commercial terms to try and maintain the viability of your project and what you might have to do to gain a share of the market. So the specifics of which, you know, I have not done any analysis nor have I seen any analysis that indicates that Place Promenade's rents are significantly different than other rents in the downtown in similar type of acc ommoda tion.

At the present ti me it is something, I am assuming, you could ask North Portage when they come here, and in the interim it is something that we will have to look into.

May 27, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2546 *

(2025) Mr. Carr: Mr. Deputy Chairm an, is the North Portage Development Corporation making its payments on Place Promenade ? How do the revenues compare to the expenses for that project now, or are they still accumulating monthly deficits? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Deputy Chairman, I do not have that detailed information from North Portage, but it seems to me that the arr angeme nts wer e intended-a t least the workout arrangements that were finally ultimately made were intended to make the project at least break even if not able to make a small surplus.

That, of course, I think in terms of the workout arrangement, and again I do not have all the details associated with it, but I suspect at least that it involved some arrangements with CMHC that saw a postponement of some portion of the payment or liabilities that had accumulated against it into the future so that the current status could at least maintain it at a break-even situation. Mr. Carr: Would the minister be so kind as to dete rmine that information and share it with members of the committee? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Deputy Chairman, I am quite prepared to look into it.

Ultimately the questions can be posed directly to the board when they next appear, but I will certainly investigate the situation. Mr. Carr: I would like to thank the minister for that co-operation. Now, I am wondering how business is inside the mall. We have been reading over the last number of weeks that there have been some failures. Can the minister report how many failures, what the vacancy rate is inside the mall now and whether this is a cause for concern to the directors of the corporation? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Deputy Chairman, the building is owned by Ca dilla c Fair view.

The leasing arrangements are conducted by Cadillac Fairview, and while I do not have any specifics-I mean, the board, obviously, of North Portage are concerned for the viability of their lease predominantly and the fact that the shopping centre provides a focus for activity in downtown Winnipeg which is one of the original purposes for having it developed in the first place, but North Portage is not directly related to the leasing arrangements within the mall space, but I saw-and I do not remember exactly when, but in the last six or eight months-a statement by an official of Cadillac Fairview-I am sure that is who had made the statement- that their view of Portage Place was not dissimilar to other shopping centres that they manage in Winnipeg, given the times and given certain business failures that occur within the kind of tenant that those kinds of places attract.

I have no recent information with respect to the current status of bankruptcies or concerns with respect to the-- Mr. Carr: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, though, it seems to me that the mortgage, the loan, that was given to Cadillac Fairview by the Nor th Por tage Development Corporation, which is representative of the three levels of government-it was a 5 percent loan, as the minister may recall-was tied to profits and profit sharing in the long term, so that the loan would only be fully paid back to the North Portage Development Corporation when profits were at a sufficient level to justify Cadillac Fairview paying back the principle and the interest.

That being the case, the public has a direct interest in the number of business failures or bankruptcies in Portage Place. Can the minister confirm that my memory is serving me correctly here? That was the nature of the arrangement between the North Portage Development Corporation and Cadillac Fairview? *

(2030) Mr. Ernst: Mr. Deputy Chairman, we are trying to gather the collec tive memories of everyone associated. It seems to me that the participation was not a loan but a capital contribution for the public amenity space associated with the mall, and terms of repaymen t wer e to come from the profitability of the whole shopping centre, of the whole project. So we have a stake, certainly, in terms of the future, in terms of profits and so on, but let us have an opportunity to investigate further. Mr. Carr: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, we ought not to expect the minister to have all the details at his fingertips, but perhaps he will take it upon himself to acquaint himself with some of the more salient points of the corporation's profitability and current cash flow. I am interested in the $1 .2 million that was earmarked for the south side and south side development by the corporation that was sitting for a number of years unspent. Can the minister tell us how much of the $1 .2 million has been spent, and on what?

2547 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 199 1 Mr. Ernst: The specifics of the total number I am not sure I can answer totally, although I gather there are some $700,000 that have been set aside for owners to upgrade their premises, tena nts' leasehold improvements. It has been ongoing, I gather, for about the past year. What the current status exactly of the expenditure rate and the take-up of that fund I would have to take as notice and investigate further. Mr. Carr: Yes, we would be interested in knowing if the program is working and how many of the south side merchants are taking advantage of it.

We would also be very interested in knowing the status of square footage of vacant space on Portage Avenue. We know that about a year ago it was very high. I understand some tenants have moved in. If there is a current update, I would be delighted to hear it. I see notes are being passed. Mr. Ernst: Well, I will have to investigate. We do not have the specifics related to vacancy rates. I am assuming it is between Eaton's and The Bay that you want that information for, and not beyond those parameters. Portage Avenue is a very long street.

I can also indicate, I think, that there has been some agreement to put in a port-a-park on the south side of Portage Avenue to kind of dress up that space a little bit and to provide some amenity space for shoppers in the area and people who work in the area. I gather that is supposed to be starting in a couple of weeks' time. Mr. Carr: I believe there are consultations going on, Mr. Deputy Chairman. I will just wait. Mr.

Ernst: I am also advised that there are a number of discussions going on with prospective tenants for the south side of Portage Avenue, but until such time as contracts are sig ned and agreements reached with respect to both the space and involvement of North Portage, it is a little difficult for North Portage to make any announcements or to publicly announce any kind of activity. If a number of those are imminent, we might hold off for a bit to see whether those come to fruition or not. We will have to take some advice from North Portage in that regard.

We will provide information as we can and as it seems appropriate. Mr. Carr: Mr. Deputy Chairman, I hope the news is good, because that is the principal commercial street in Winnipeg and has, of course, great historic value and importance to our city. So much so, as a matter of fact, that we were led to make the suggestion to government, oh, a year and a half ago, that it ought to look at Portage Avenue as a place to relocate government employees if the opportunity would arise.

As a matter of fact, there was the particular example of the Manitoba Telephone System moving employees from Portage Avenue down into the basement underneath the concourse, because that is where the pedestrian traffic was, according to corporation executives. Well, the reason that the traffic is down there is because we have got barricades up on the corner of Portage and Main, and because, through various actions of government and the private sector, the street has been in decline. You do not just throw up your hands and say: Isn't that too bad?

There is an opportunity to take some action in order to get the street more viable. So I am not expecting that the minister has an answer. I would be delighted if he did, but I am offering this in the form of a suggestion that if there is consolidation of government space or relocation required for government employees, would the minister make a point around the cabinet table of making a pitch for Portage Avenue? There is a lot of vacant space; the minister could probably get a pretty reasonable deal right now on behalf of the gove rn ment of Ma nitoba . The Minis ter of Government Services (Mr.

Ducharme) could have a hand to play in this and all kinds of parties would be better served. Maybe I should ask the minister if he does have any good news to report and if not, would he take this positive suggestion to heart and consider searching for ways in which government employees could be consolidated or relocated on Portage Avenue? Mr. Ernst: I can say firstly, Mr. Deputy Chairman, that the Department of Urban Affairs, at least, is located on Portage Avenu�the entire department with the exception of the deputy minister.

In terms of commitment to downtown, certainly the government and governments of other political stripes as well have had a commitment, I think, to downtown Winnipeg for some time. No w specifically in terms of downtown, whether it is Portage Avenue or otherwise related, the fact of the matter is the government pays a premium to be downtown in many cases. It was a conscious decision, I think, made by prior governments to ours and continued by ours that we want to support, where at least reasonable, the position of locating govern ment offi ces and

May 27, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2548 employees within the downtown area because of the obvious impact it has on downtown as a whole in terms of providing additional shoppers, additional support for commercial activities in the downtown, and by and large to make downtown a viable place to be. I, personally throughout my private sector busines s career, have had a commitment to downtown, always have. I could have probably made more money ultimately by being in a suburban location for at least one aspect of my business but chose to be in the downtown because I have a commitment to downtown.

I think that is where businesses should be-apart from the service oriented, directly related to the suburban area type of commercial activity-that the major commercial, the major activity, the major impact should be in the downtown area. Tha t has been a personal commitment, and I put my money where my mouth was, quite frankly, in terms of contributing to it. I personally think that we have a significant stake and have been a large supporter of downtown and downtown redevelopment for some time.

In terms of the specifics for Portage Avenue, I do not have an answer ultimately, nor do I know what the vacancies are or what current space has been allocated with respect to Portage Avenue, but we will certainly take your comments with the intent I am sure in which they were made and as another potential for assist to Portage Avenue as a principal street. Mr. Carr: It is always nice to know that when the opposition makes positiv e sugg estions the government is listening.

We are often accused of being too negative, always criticizing, and never trying to offer positive alternatives and I am glad the minis ter recognizes that here, at least, is one that is being offered sincerely. I am interested in knowing how often the minister meets with his di rectors of the North Portage Development Corporation. The minister has now been in office several months. How many meetings has he had with his directors of the North Portage Development Corporation? *

(2040) Mr. Ernst: I think we have had, if I am not mistaken, with me and the individual directors, the appointees to the board-I do not think, if I remember correctly, that I have had any specific meeting with those employees. We have had a couple of meetings with various members of the board, the chairman of North Portage, dealing with some very-firstly a briefing initially when I first became minister and then, subsequently, with the board chairman and a couple of other people associated with the board.

The specifics of that I do not-I have not yet sat down with the individual members of the board appointed by- oth er than that I have had discussions with individuals who are members, but I have not had a formal meeting of the three appointees to the board. Mr. Carr: Mr. Deputy Chairman, does that mean that the minister has not had an occasion to discuss the potential amalgamation of North Portage and The Forks with directors of either corporation? Mr. Ernst: That is correct. Mr. Carr: Does the minister intend to? Mr.

Ernst: When we get to a point where there is agreement in principle, shall we say, amongst the three levels of government, at that point I think it would be an appropriate time to have discussions with the board, but it is really not their decision; they are appointed by governments, the governments the principal shareholders of both corporations, and it will ultimately be the government who decides that they are going to be merged. So once we have had an opportunity to at least get some agreement in principle in terms of that direction, then I have not broached the subject with the board from either corporation.

Mr. Carr: Mr. Deputy Chairman, I understand that it is the government's decision, but one would assume that since the provincial government, to quote the minister, is the driving force behind amalgamation, it would just be common sense to see what economies could be effected through consultation with those two boards, who after all would be affected. But I will leave it at that.

If the minister has not yet consulted them, perhaps he will, although it could be that his case that he is making with varying degrees of success to his partners, might be enhanced and given more persuasion if directors from The Forks and North Portage were brought into the discussion who could perhaps reinforce some of the arguments that the minister is making, or even provide him with new ones. Again, that is just a suggestion that may work down the road. Mr. Ernst: Mr. Deputy Chairman, the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Carr) has indicated one tack that

2549 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 199 1 we could take. I accept his recommendation, and we may well do that over the next period of time. Although, in fact we have had discussions at the staff level, from the CEOs of the two corporations along with the deputy and staff, and a report has been generated by Urban Affairs and circulated amongst the other shareholders to form a basis for discussion which provided a number of details asso cia ted with the potential for smoother operations, some cost savings and a variety of things.

But again, he makes the offer and suggestion in good faith, and I will accept that, and we will consider that as matters progress. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairman, I have a few questions on The Forks corporation, and again I reco gniz e that we are going to- The Forks corporation will be here appearing before us, so I am looking for some general principles from the minister and some general comments upon the overall policy of The Forks. As the minister knows, I am sure there were five principles enuncia ted in The Forks annual report-so rry, the first phase of the five-year plan.

I wonder if the minister could give us an update on each of those aspects, that is, on The Forks Market, planning for a leisure centre, a multicultural centre, the housing component and an aboriginal centre? Mr. Ernst: You want an update, Mr. Deputy Chairman, as I gather, the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen), on each of those components? I think the Market is relatively obvious. It seems to be doing reasonably well. I do not have any specific information related to it. The question of the leisure centre is still not definitively-they are not at any point yet close to a decision.

I think the housing is on hold for the present time, given the state of current downtown housing. The aboriginal-now again, this happened before I became the minister. I do not have specific information, but it is my understanding that there was trying to be an arrangement made with regard to the south point for an aboriginal development of some form or other, and I am afraid I do not have direct information. I think those are all the ones you had mentioned. The Forks Renewal Corporation is holding its public meeting on June 27, I believe, at which time I am sure there will be a formal update of activities.

I think the Children's Museum was another issue that they had raised. I think they are trying to work out arrangements for funding that development for The Forks, but seeing that the general direction of The Forks is starting to head toward more of an open public amenity space type of arrangement as opposed to intensive commercial development but that again- things are in a bit of a state of flux at the moment. We have just recently had a short meeting following the opening of the river walk and the boat basin.

Discussions cantering around that kind of a future activity was something that we wanted to discuss in more depth, and we will be meeting again to continue those kinds of discussions. Ms. Friesen: That is, at least the last

part is, one of the areas I did want to follow up on. I do not think there ever was an intention for intensive commercial development at The Forks, but there was a requirement by the three levels of government that The Forks pay its own way and that, first of all, it pay for the taxation that the City of Winnipeg requires.

If the minister is assured and if he welcomes the opportunity to move to public amenities, whether it is open space or whether it is different forms of public amenities such as the Children's Museum, has he entered into discussions with his other partners on the alteration of that mandate for self-support? Mr. Ernst: Not just specifically related to that mandate. That mandate still exists; however, we had some preliminary discussions just recently with regard to The Forks, when we did have their brief meeting, and some of the discussion cantered around that.

We will have to continue with that discussion before we ever reach-u ltimately, I think anybody would like to see that it is not a constant drain on the public purse. That is a laudable objective, if it is achievable. We do not know that it is. At least, I do not know that it is achievable at this point. In the current economy, it is probably very difficult, in the short term certainly, to be achievable; but if you can mould a major public amenity open space gathering place activity area with some revenue production, that will allow it to continue.

It is not good enough just to simply build it and walk away from it. I mean it has to be maintained; it has to be programmed; it has to be carried on for the future, because it is a significant investment and

May 27, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2550 will deteriorate over time just simply from age if nothing else. Those are issues that are under discussion at the present time, and we will be pursuing them as time goes along. *

(2050) Ms. Friesen: Could the minister give us an update on the state of the multicultural centre? Particularly, I am wondering what is happening to the German Cultural Centre, one element of a multicultural program, about which there was considerable debate in the public area. Mr. Ernst: With regard to the multicultural centres, my unde rstanding that The Forks has asked for proposals for consultants, which is I guess in the middle of that process at the moment to conduct a study about what should be there, why it should be there, how it should be there, who should be there, and so on.

That activity is, I guess, just either in the final stages of allocation or somewhere in that process at least anyway. In terms of the German Cultural Centre, the issue is dead. They have purchased the Marlborough hotel and have carried on in a tack and gone in a different direction in terms of what they wanted to do, so that is a fait accompli. I think, in terms of The Forks at least, that the proposal for it to attach the German Cultural Centre to the Johnson Terminal building is not an issue anymore. Ms. Friesen: What is the state then of the Johnson Terminal building?

Is this tied in to the multicultural contract? Is it for that particular site, or are we looking at two separate items here? Mr. Ernst: From my understanding of it, the proposals for a multicultural centre may encompass the Johnson Terminal, it may not. There is a Letter of Intent, I think. How serious at the moment it is, given the current state of the economy, I guess is anybody's guess in terms of a hotel arrangement for that site. I do not think it is tied specifically to that building.

Although it is highly desirable to do something with that building, given the extent of development that has taken place around it, what was originally kind of a concept of a grand old building that could be converted into something of use is now becoming a bit of an eyesore in terms of the existing development that has occurred around it. At this point, I do not think it is tied directly. Mr. Carr: On the same subject, Mr. Deputy Chairman. I am interested in knowing the status of the Letter of Intent wit h Penn-Co, and the construction of a character hotel on The Forks site. Mr.

Ernst: That Is the one for the Johnson Terminal building. Mr. Carr: Yes, I know. What is the status of it? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Deputy Chairman, we will have to investigate. Specifically, I cannot tell you what the current status of that is. The only discussion I heard was briefly in a recent meeting, and I think what was kind of under discussion was the question of the commercial viability of this particular market. Now, whether that means that it is over and expired, or whether it is on hold or whether they are not pursuing it, at this point, I would have to check and see. Mr. Carr: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, what is the financial status of The Forks Renewal Corporation now? What are its sources of revenues? Is the market making money, or at least breaking even? I understand that there is no further money expected from levels of government, no infusions of cash, so where does that leave the corporation on its balance sheet? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Deputy Chairman, I am advised that the market is more or less breaking even, that they have had a cash injection in recent time from the sale.

The acquisition by the City of Winnipeg of the land triggered an equivalency payment and some other payments to North Portage of about $5.6 million. So they have had a cash infusion of recent date, I think a March 1 date. There is a question of the equivalency payment required by both Manitoba and by City of Winnipeg. City of Winnipeg has made a commitment to pay it out over 10 years, including interest. We have not yet made our comm itment, in the hopes of encouraging the merger of the two corporations. That is really not directly related, but we are having discussions on both fronts, shall we say. Mr.

Carr: I am interested in the minister achieving his objectives, so maybe I should not go into this question in too much detail. It is true that the province owes The Forks Corporation money. How much? Mr. Ernst: I saw the "agreement" signed by the former Minister of Urban Affairs in the Pawley gove rnment, the current Lea der of the New Democratic Party, which said, best efforts for an equivalency to be payable 31 days, assuming best

2551 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 1991 efforts again, after the completion of the York-St. Mary extension or October '92 . Technically, I suppose, or legally, we do not owe them anything. Nonetheless, I think we are all interested in the corporation and seeing it function and continue to carry on its mandates, whatever they may turn out to be in the future as time goes along. I think ultimately we will reach an arrangement whereby we can arrange to have our equivalency flow to the corporation. Mr. Carr: Mr. Deputy Chairman, I am interested in the walkway between the legislative grounds and The Forks.

I am told by Winnipeggers who were at The Forks two weekends ago that there were so many people on the walkway that you could not find room to walk. It was that crowded, that popular, that much of an attraction in the heart of our city, but you cannot get from the legislative grounds to The Forks, because there are four property owners who refuse to give easement of their property. Mr. Deputy Chairman, this is in the public interest. This is a major attraction not only for Winnipeggers, but for tourists who come to our city.

If you should happen to step off of the crushed gravel walkway onto one of the pieces of private property, you may fall into the river. It is unsafe. It is an eyesore. It is a piece of unfinished public business. We are looking for a strong statement from the minister that is going to take us down the road to a completed pathway and soon. Can you give us an update? Mr.

Ernst: The member for Crescentwood is correct, that there are four private property owners of the 26, I believe, property owners that were originally involved in the process, all but four have given of their free will easement for the benefit of the community. We have still four property owners to go. Discussions, the city is the implementing jurisdiction in this case. The mayor has undertaken himself to approach the property owners to illicit their community spirit, and I think we are well along with at least two of them.

Nothing can occur, pretty much, until winter in any event in terms of construction completion. So that we do have a little bit of time to discuss with those owners the potential for easement space along the river. We are a little reluc tant to expropriate, for the reason that everybody else gave it of their own free will and gave their free easement to the community, and so for us to go and expropriate the last four, and it is an embarrassment for everybody. There is no question about that.

So we are pursuing that hot and heavy, you might say, and we are attempting to resolve the issue before the fall so that we can make appropriate arrangements to complete the walkway during the winter. * (21 00) Mr. Carr: We would not want to leave the hot pursuit in the hands of the single pursuer. Surely, the Minister of Urban Affairs has a stake in this. Why does the minister not offer to go with the mayor and put together a little delegation.

If he wants to make it an all-party delegation I volunteer to put some well- focused public attention on the four hold-outs so that we can complete this piece of unfinished business atthe earliest possible moment so that Winnipeggers can take the proper pride in an unfinished walkway that ought to be completed and soon. Mr. Ernst: Mr. Deputy Chairman, we have an initial go at it through the mayor. At the same time while you want to put pressure on the owners, you do not want to put particularly undue pressure and cause them to simply throw up their hands and walk away and say, to heck with it.

So that, it is a fine line when you are asking for something for nothing, when you want people to give it-not withstanding the benefit for the community as a whole and all of those other good things that are associated with it. The fact of the matter is, that we are not buying it. We are asking for an easement along the riverbank to accommodate the public amenity space. So, we are having ongoing discussions. Those of us who happen to know individuals perhaps associated with those properties are attempting to influence-we are not simply turning it over to the mayor and saying, you do it.

We are all involved in, both the federal minister and myself and the mayor, involved in attempting to secure these last few properties. We are close in a number of them, hopefully in all of them. We are heading in that direction. We want to try and reach an agreement with respect to these properties as quickly as we can because, for all the good and valid reasons you point out that we need to complete the walkway.

Again, we are not going to be able to physically complete the walkway until the winter in any event so that we do have a little bit of time to try and use as much moral suasion as we can without ultimately coming out and publicly embarrassing somebody. I do not think that is necessarily the way to go either when you could try and reach an amicable solution that

May 27, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2552 will be for the benefit of the people of Winnipeg for a long time to come. I quite concur. I mean, the walkway space along the riverbank is well utilized and a real amenity for Winnipeg. I first, I think, realized that when I participated in the Riverborne Winter Festival opening when we walked from St. Boniface, historic St. Boniface dock, the torch parade down the river. It is an entirely different feeling and an entirely different perspective on Winnipeg from the surface of the river.

What you are getting in terms of the walkways is the ability to use it in the summertime, which is a real advantage from a variety of perspectives, not the least of which is tourism, my old former pursuits. Nonetheless, it is an excellent space; we dearly want to see it completed as soon as we possibly can, Mr. Carr: The min ister goes with all of our encouragement. We support him and we wish him luck. Mr. Deputy Chairm an: Item 3.(

a) Salaries $430 ,000- pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $1 1 8,200-pass; (

c) zero-pass -(in terjection)- 3.( c), that is North Portage Development; there is no dollar tied to it. ltem 3.(d)- Ms. Friesen: Oh, no wait a minute. This is IMAX, right? Mr. Deputy Chairman: I thought we had already gone through that. I am sorry. Ms. Friesen: I want to ask specifically on IMAX. I understand the part, I asked this last time, and I do not think the minister had the response at the time, that IMAX, in its agreement with North Portage and with the government, was to have produced films in and about Manitoba and by Manitobans, I believe.

I wonder what the fulfillment of that obligation has been and what the details of it were. Mr. Ernst: Mr. Deputy Chairman, this line refers to a loan that was made to see the IMAX Theatre constructed and certain activities related to the making of films and so on with it. The specifics of that we are trying to dig out here. What this relates to, this was the interest payment on that $1 .8 million loan. Rather than continue budgeting and making interest payments, the government has written off the loan so that we do not require them to budget for the amount of interest of what it cost.

That is quite apart from the terms of an agreement which are necessary to carry out certain activities. I am just trying to find out if we do have that information or not. Just hang on a sec. I gather that one film out of the agreement has been produced. The fund that is available for the production of additional films is accumulating as time goes along. The problem is that they are extremely expensive to make. In excess of a million dollars, I think the first one cost. So we are in the process of accumulating that. I can get you some further information, if you like, on what the current status of that is.

There is a separate arrangement and a separate management company and a separate fund associated with that. I can dig up that information if you like. Ms. Friesen: That is what I am interested in. Certainly you could provide that at a later time. It just seems to me that this is the only line under which I can ask it. What I am interested in is, what did IMAX undertake? What is their obligation? How are they fulfilling it? Mr.

Ernst: The obligation from IMAX Theatre, which operates the facility, is out of profits to contribute a percentage toward the accumulation of a fund for future production of additional films. They have not said the amount is not a, I think it is one-third of net theatre revenue and one- third of film rental revenue is appropriated yearly towards the film fund. The specifics of that I will have to get for you. Ms. Friesen: I am interested in also knowing the deadline, not the deadline but at least the time frame, for that accumulation and production.

I wonder if the minister would have any comments or any interest in an IMAX film as an aspect of tourism for Manitoba. It seems to be they are expensive films to produce. We did set up an agreement, whereby a portion of these revenues would be used to produce another film. There is a circuit of IMAX-type theatres around the world, in fact -(interjection)- potential for the government and for Manitobans overall in this development. * (21 10 ) Mr.

Ernst: I think, if ever there was an excellent film that was made to measure for tourism, it was "Heartland." I think it very accurately described the potential amenities, the activities, what Manitoba has to offer. It certainly inspired me originally when we were talking when I was in the tourism department about a potential high-tech tourism centre for The Forks, for instance, as an example,

2553 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 199 1 certainly that film inspired me to see-If you remember the scene in "Heartland," where the thunderstorm occurs- well, my wife would not let me watch that portion of the film. I think it is at the beach in Gimli where the thunderstorm struck and where the rain came pelting down. I mean, it was almost like you were feeling you were getting wet.

I think that kind of experience on a shorter term basis, as a promotion for tourism, for people to be able to say that the experience of Manitoba, so to speak, in a closed environment, is something that dearly, I think ultimately, I would certainly like to see happen. Other events and times and things intervene, but I think my original instructions to the staff when we started out on that was, I said, what do you really feel, minister, what do you want to do with regard to that?

I said, I want to be able to do or see somebody catching a fish in a northern pristine Manitoba lake, flipping the fish into the boat and getting wet. So I had that sort of total experience and ultimately not necessarily doable, but at the same time, that concept of-and that is what I really got out of "Heartland." So in terms of a tourism film, it is an excellent vehicle as far as that is concerned, and I would like to see another, or more than that, but it is a limited market.

There are IMAX-type theatres around, but it is a commercial type of activ ity as opposed to one wher e you can concentrate more on tourism aspects of it. Not to suggest for a minute that it is not an excellent vehicle, because it is, but I think we need to look at other options, as well, in terms of tourism-type film to attract people to our province and to tell them visually and audio-wise as to the kind of experience they can expect when they come here. Ms.

Friesen: I do not know whether this particular kind of technology is expanding, and I know that it does have competition fro m sim ilar types of technology, but it does have an international presence. I mean, the Museum of Civilization, for example, in Ottawa, which is one of the places all tourists do go, or non-Canadian tourists would go, you have the opportunity there for a national and an international presence. On the way back from Australia last time, we stayed in Singapore.

Singapore has an IMAX theatre, and one of the things they were showing was in fact, and it was packed five or six sessions a day, a film on Canada about beaver, and it was mostly filmed in the Rockies, in fact, but there it was. It was one of the tourist attractions of Singapore for that particular season. It does have a potential and it seems to me a relatively easy way for the government to make some impact on a broader scale. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Item 3.(

c) North Portage Redevelopment- pass. Item 3.(

d) Canada-Manitoba Winnipeg Core Area Renewed Agreement: (1 ) Payments to Other Implementing Jurisdictions $47 4,400. Mr. Carr: I gather we can take these three lines together. Mr. Ernst: If you want to take these three lines, it is okay. (Mr. Bob Rose, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) Mr. Carr: I am just interested in the payouts as the Core Area Agreement is wound down. How much is owing from the Province of Manitoba? I am particularly interested in the Payments to Other Provincial Departments. I see there is over a million and a ha lf doll ar s paid to other provincial departments.

Can the minister tell us how that works and just what the outstanding obligations are from the province? Mr. Ernst: If I am reading this correctly, out of $33.3 million of provincial expenditures under Core II, we have paid out $27,462,000 as of March 31 , 19 91 . That is not necessarily ind icative-we are responsible for a third, but then an overall total of $100 million. At some point they were a little more, at some point we were a little less, as are the other partners in the agreement as it goes along.

It does not always sort of-everybody does not contribute their 33 cents on the dollar for every expenditure. Some implementing ju risdictions, there are transfers back and forth and so on. So we have roughly about $6 million to pay.

The question of the transfer between other provincial departments, without going into a great litany of all of the individual expenditures, it is things like, for instance, the Housing department carried out the CAIGHO program so the funding from the various partners to the Core Area Initiative agreement has to be transferred to Housing to pick up the cost that Housing incu rred carrying out the program. Similarly, Education and Training may be carrying out another program elsewhere, and Education and Training gets the recovery in their budget from the partnership arrangements under the Core Area

May 27, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2554 Initiative, things of that nature. So there are interdepartmental transfers, depending upon who is carrying out the programs. Mr. Carr: So presumably the last payment will be made on or about May of 19 92? Mr. Ernst: The last expenditure in the agreement occurs on or before September 30, 19 92. That is the last date for interdepartmental transfers, I think, and so on like that, intergovernmental transfers. The last date for expenditures under the agreement, direct expenditures under the agreement, I think is September. Mr.

Carr: Before dinner, the minister told us that the Core staff would be wound down by May of 19 92. That means that there is a period of five months or so 'wh ere there will be expenditu res both intergovernmentally and through programs, without staff to deliver them? Mr.

Ernst: The majority of the expenditures related to the agreement will-and the last person in the Core, obviously, to go will be the finance person related to the activities, butthe implement, what little will be left by that point, and things like land expropriation is one of them that may well be left at that point-be carried out by the implementing jurisdictions and will make appropriate transfers between governments to-a ssuming that they are not going to be settled by the end of September 19 92, which is the last date for intergovernmental transfers and so on, there will have to be an allocation made prior to that point, and it will be set aside for a future and, yes, if we win, we win.

If we do not, we do not. At some point, somebody is going to have to make a judgment as to what it might cost if things are not settled by then. By and large, most of the function will be completed and the implementing jurisdictions will pick up any slack and that is the best estimate of the Core Area office themselves in terms of need for staff and need for administrative support through, beyond May of 19 92 is anticipated to be able to handle by implementing jurisdictions. * (21 20) Mr. Carr: How much of the $1 00 million of Core II is unallocated as of this date? Mr.

Ernst: By and large, I do not think very much is unallocated, one way or another at this point. It is pretty much all either notionally allocated or committed. I think, by and large, you can say that it is pretty much all, in one way or another, allocated at this point. So there is not a pot of money around, I do not think. You know, there are a couple of hundred thousand dollars in program 6.3 that has some people waiting for it. If it is levered free, then it will be allocated to those people who have been in line waiting for it, so to speak. So it is pretty much all allocated at this point.

There may be some following, again, after further review, there may be some reallocation of money internally from a variety of different sources to meet some priorities. It will depend on what the Core policy com mittee ultimately decides to do at that point. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Rose): Item 3.(d). Ms. Friesen: I wanted to ask about the education provisions and to ask the minister how much of this was directed towards ESL programs? Mr. Ernst: I am sorry, I did not catch- Ms. Friesen: How much of the education allotment here was directed to ESL programs? Mr.

Ernst: While we are waiting for that response, I should indicate that we had a little confusion with regard to the dates with respect to the Core. September 19 92 is the last date for direct program expenditure, so all funds have to be expended by September 19 92. March 19 93 is the last date for intergovernmental transfers. Dollars have to be spent by September 19 92, but the recoveries and balancing off and so on have to take place by March of 19 93. So I am sorry about that. I just wanted to make sure that appropriate corrections are on the record.

There is ESL funding, I am advised, within the training component, the specifics of which I do not have, nor do the staff at this point, but there was no change. Whatever it was is continued on. There was no alteration of that. Anyway, I will undertake to get the information for you. Ms. Friesen: What is the status then of the ESL programs under Core Area? Do they still continue to be taught? How long will they be taught? How many students are they accommodating? Mr. Ernst: It is my understanding it is continuing on at the present time in the way it was originally intended to carry on.

There has been no change or reduction or anything to the program. It is carrying on as it was intended to carry on. The specifics of how many studentsm, and so on, we will have to find out. I do not know offhand.

2555 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 199 1 Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona) : I would like to get a bit more specific, if I might, about the programs under this

section here. In particular, the Transcona area is, I believe, part of that, and they had some monies that were allotted to revitalize the downtown area of the community of Transcona. Am I correct in that assumption? Mr. Ernst: Firstly, Mr. Acting Chairman, to advise the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid), that is not a Core Area Initiative program. Transcona is not in the core.

There is, I think, a Community Revitalization Program that is going to be carried out or is being carried out, and that comes in the next appropriation, in Expenditures Related to Capital, but that is the specifics of where I think that is located, and we can deal with it then when we get there. Mr. Reid: Then if it comes under Capital, I will raise my questions under Capital. That would be the more appropriate time, then. That is fine. Thank you. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Rose) : Item 3.(d)

(1) Payments to Other Implementing Jurisdictions $474,400-pass;

(2) Payments to Other Provincial Departments $1 ,51 9,400- pass;

(3) Departmental Expenditures, $591 ,200-p ass. Item 3.(

e) Riverbank Development. Ms. Friesen: Could the minister indicate in what way the heritage resources of the riverbank are being developed or interpreted? Mr. Ernst: In general terms, the Core Area Initiative has allocated some $5 million of resources toward riverbank in general terms.

Interpretation of the heritage resources, the specifics of the question, the city has been talking about doing some things and so on, the specifics of that, or beyond that, I think that is primarily the focus up to this point. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Acting Chairman, it seems to me that, as a result of the policies of earlier governments, we certainly do have a large number of people now using the rivers, the riverbanks and the river walkways and part of the background of that policy was to develop an unde rstanding of the history of Winnipeg, and I see this in terms of citizen access and citizen understanding of the whole process of urban development. So I am concerned, not just in esthetic terms of the development of heritage resources, but from an educational and indeed a political perspective as well. So I would like to pursue it a little future.

It is indicated here as an objective of this department to work with other governments to develop the heritage resources of this area. This is the ending, if we use the minister's term, of the Core Area Agreement. There was money in there. We know that The Forks has done some

interpretation; certainly the National Park has, but what about the rest of it? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Acting Chairman, prior to my coming to the department, there was a proposal made by the former minister to the City of Winnipeg to form a riverfront corporation.

That corporation was going to involve the City of Winnipeg, going to involve the province, going to involve municipalities that fronted along the rivers outside but adjacent to Winnipeg, recognizing the fact that those municipalities also played a role in terms of the rivers, and so on, and that public boundaries were sometimes artificial and did not necessarily relate to the whole aspects of it. The public was to be involved in a variety of ways. *

(2130) That proposal was put to the City of Winnipeg and they turned it down, unfortunately. They turned it down, suggesti ng-and this was not in any regulatory authority at all. The regulatory authority was to remain either under whatever acts were in place at the time and/or under the proposed changes as identified in Bill 35. Notwithstanding the fact, the City of Winnipeg turned down that vehicle, which is unfortunate, because I think that, without the major player involved, it is difficult for us to go it on our own and difficult to co-ordinate the other municipalities.

We are sort of back to the drawing boards, as it were. The city was given until the end of, I think, 19 90 to reconsider its position and has not. As I say, it is an unfortunate situation. For the moment, we are nowhere, if you like, not to say we do not have an interest, not to say we are not looking for a vehicle to carry out what we think is a valuable role and a valuable asset that we have to enhance and to make more accessible to the public. We are going to go back to the drawing board and see if we cannot come up with some other mechanism to suit that arrangement. (Mr. Deputy Chairman in the Chair) Ms.

Friesen: Could the minister indicate then what his procedures will be from now on, having been rebuffed by the City of Winnipeg? What is Plan B?

May 27, 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2556 What kind of framework are you looking at for that kind of planning procedure? Mr. Ernst: I suppose that the first and foremost and largest need will be patience, but recognizing that there is concern, recognizing that the city, as a result of turning it down, felt somehow that the province was trying to impose its jurisdiction over them, which I do not think was the case. I think it is much like the Winnipeg Region Committee in the sense that we are trying to build a consensus among all those that have a direct involvement in our river system.

I do not have any magic answers in terms of being able to snap my fingers and say, here is a new and better way to do it. I think we are going to have to try and build a trust and a consensus amongst the partners involved in this process and try and come up with a mechanism that will alternately reach the kind of target or goal or objective that we all have. I do not have a magic answer for it. We are going to go back and try again. Ms. Friesen: I recognize the minister does not have magic answers, but does he have a planning process for this? Does he for example have his staff developing some policy options?

Is there a series of meetings that are going to be developed with the City of Winnipeg? Will there be public hearings? Has he looked at other exam ples in ot her jurisdictions? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Deputy Chairman, it is a difficult situati on. The form er minis ter rele ased the riverfront proposal for City of Winnipeg in the summer of 19 89 and attached some money to it. Half a million dollars was attached initially and, you know, quite frankly, the City of Winnipeg did not enter into a serious discussion with regard to that issue. It is unfortunate.

I think it behooves all of us to speak to any of the people on City Council whom you know and say, look, we need to get on with this process. A few members of the committee need to-we all need to look at-I think we all see it as a laudable objective. I do not know how you influence people there. I mean, you can offer them-we offered them funding; they did not seem to be particularly interested in that and, in fact, the motion stated that the proposal to establish a riverfront corporation not be implemented nor have any jurisdiction within the boundaries of the city of Winnipeg.

Now maybe there was a misunderstanding. Who knows? We will have some additional discussions as time goes along and hopefully we will ultimately reach a goal of some form of mechanism or vehicle to ensure that the riverbanks are developed in the future for the benefit of the citizens of Winnipeg. Ms. Friesen: So until then the interpretive aspects of the rivers policy is on hold? Mr. Ernst: I do not know what is happening in terms of what Culture, Heritage and Citizenship might be doing.

I do not know specifically what Winnipeg may be carrying out in terms of an adjunct to immigration programming or things of that nature, but as far as this vehicle is concerned it is on hold. Ms. Friesen: It did occur to me, Mr. Minister, too, to connect this with the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, but they, of course, have cut by a third their cultural heritage officers. So I would think that there will be great difficulty in finding support there for developing this kind of policy, so that is why I was looking for it from this department which has had a mandate to develop it. Mr.

Ernst: We tried, we are still trying. Mr. Deputy Chai rman : Item 3.(

e) Riverbank Development, zero-pass. Item 3.(

f) Winnipeg Wards Review Committee: (1 ) Salaries $34,000. Mr. Carr: Mr. Deputy Chairman, I am interested in some of these numbers. I believe the minister reported to us a figure for the salaries of the chairperson of the boundaries commission and the two other individuals. The pay-outs, I think, were larger in the last fiscal year than show up on this printed page. This has a salary figure of $4,000; the number the minister reported to us earlier on in the day was something more than that. Mr. Ernst: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, staff advises these were the Voted Authority in the last Estimates process, not specific actual expenditures. Actual expenditures depend upon when the committee is hired and appointed, and so on. The committee was appointed about the 2nd or 3rd of February or thereabouts and commenced its work at that point. So obviously it is more money than what is shown in the vote. Mr. Carr: Also the $34,000 salary figure is much mor e than the O/Cs have ind icated for the commissioners of the Wards Review Committee, so where is the rest of the money going? Mr.

Ernst: It goes to the secretary of the committee, who is a term staffperson with the Department of

2557 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MA NITOBA May 27, 19 91 Urban Affairs, and that is his salary. He will continue on to the end of the year and assist the commission as they see fit, but his salary is charged to this line. Mr. Carr: I see. So that is how it does not appear anywhere else in the Estimates of the Urban Affairs department. Mr. Ernst: No. Mr. Carr: The Other Expenditures of $56,000, I presume that is for advertisements, public hearings, in ciden tal expenses associa ted with the commission's work? Mr. Ernst: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, if you refer to the Supplementary Estimates, page 36, the budgetary expenditures are indicated there. * (21 40) Mr. Carr: What are Professional Services for $33,000? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Deputy Chairman, if the member likes, we can let the staff do a little bit of homework on that, and we will get back to you in a minute or two, and maybe go on to another question and return to that issue. I do not have the breakdown just at the moment. I am trying to pull it out. Mr. Carr: Sure.

I am interested in that line because, as the minister knows, the commissioners themselves, the president of the University of Winnipeg, the Chief Electoral Officer of the city and the Chief Justice of the Court of Queen's Bench are not paid. An Honourable Member: They get pens. Mr. Carr: The former minister says, they get pens. There is a seconded staffperson from the department, so what is the $33,000 for? Mr.

Ernst: I do not have every single detail but, for instance, it was anticipated when the budget was prepared that the Win nipeg Wards Review Committee, not the commission, would be carrying out the balance of the mandate. That committee would have utilized about $1 8,000 of this money simply for their per diems or for their contributions toward-it is about $2,000 a month times 9 months, which would have taken us through to the end of the year. So $1 8,000 of that $33,000 would have been utilized for that purpose.

The earlier $34,000 relates to the staffperson; 18 of the 33 would have been utilized for the committee per diems. There are some other incide ntal services in there. The translation of documents was hired out. Translation of the committee report was actually translated outside of government, so that cost would be attached to that as well. It is an outside professional service. I do not have specifics here with us just at the moment for all that made up every dollar of that line. Mr. Carr: I do not want to be picky, but the minister said that the per diems were for a 1 o�month period, and they began February 1.

So that would mean that there would be eight, not nine, months in this fiscal year. So that would be $1 6,000, not $1 8,000, but that is being a little picky. Mr. Ernst: It is a new fiscal year, so it starts April 1. Mr. Carr: Right, and they began February 1. So they had two months in the old fiscal year and, therefore, eight months in the new fiscal year to make a total of 10 . Grant me my small point. Mr. Ernst: Okay. Mr. Carr: Thank you. When the minister has clarification of the other professional expenditures, we would appreciate it. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Item 3.(

f) Winnipeg Wards Review Committee: (1 ) Salaries $34,000-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $56,000-pass. Resolut ion 13 5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,223,200 for Urban Affairs for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March 19 92-p ass. We will now move on to 4. Expenditures Related to Capital (

a) Financial Assistance to the City of Winnipeg, $1 4,900,000. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairman, I wonder if the minister could give us a brief indication of the way in which this money is spent. Mr. Ernst: This money, of course, is the cash flow as opposed to the commitment made to the city on an annual basis related to their capital budget. Some projects are cost-sha red, some are not. It depends on individual-but by and large city capital works is where the money is spent, roads, sewers, a variety of different kinds of projects thai are contained in the city's capital budget. Ms.

Friesen: I wonder if the minister would like to comment on the City of Winnipeg's plans in this regard. I know he has on an earlier occasion mentioned that the City of Winnipeg debt, which is one of the financial obli gations that the city suffers under, is due to suburban expansion or at least the capital projects, and I wonder if the minister would

May 27, 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2558 like to comment in the context of the grants from the province. Mr. Ernst: What I can do is I can indicate to the member what our commitments were for this year. It should be stressed, this is not necessarily a policy arrangement for every year. For this year, $7.5 mi llion was allo cat ed.

The re was a total commitment of $1 6.1 million; $7.5 million was unconditional; $1 .6 million was for regional streets; $1 37 ,OOO was the Arli ngton ove rpass for engineering and structural design; $500,000 for the Norwood and Main Street bridges; $2.9 million for transit buses ; $1 80,00 0 for existing bus refurbishing; $1 34,000 for minor capital purchase in the transit system; $500,000 for Manitoba Winnipeg Community Revitalization Program; $300,000 for the Assiniboine Park Zoo; $220,000 for urban reforestation; and $2.1 million for flood relief in the existing areas where there are combined sewer systems.

That is where the province is putting its dollars of capital contribution to the City of Winnipeg. Ms. Friesen: Would the minister then like to comment on the overall capital expenditures of the City of Winnipeg and the percentage that this is fulfilling or assisting with? Mr. Ernst: The City of Winnipeg recognized I think that it was outstripping its ability to manage its debt and self-imposed a borrowing limit of about $75 million on itself last year. This current capital budget, I think, is in the area of $66 million, so they are living well within their means.

The question of whether it is enough -it is probably never enough. In terms of the life cycles, that is always the favourite, and I used it myself when I was there. It was always a favourite of saying you are going, based on this level of expenditure, to replace the sidewalks every 280 years and you can replace your sewer system every 110 years and things of that nature, well beyond, of course, the normal life cycle for those kinds of facilities. In general terms we are in the process at the moment of negotiating a new urban projects capital allocation for the City of Winnipeg.

We are getting close to having a provincial position available to begin negotiations with the city on that. • (21 50) In times of limited financial resources it is difficult to be able to simply say, sure we would like to give you more money, we would like to provide additional capital projects. I think what we would like to do is maybe focus it a little bit more in terms of too many specific projects and so on.

We would like to focus it in two or three general areas, urban infrastructure being one area, for example, and simply say that maybe a portion of the capital would be devoted to the city's priorities, a portion of the capital would be devoted to joint provincial-city priorities and then a portion allocated directly to urban infrastructure renewal as an example. Those are some of the kinds of things we would like to explore with the city to see if that is maybe a more acceptable form of delivery than the current process of trying to allocate individual amounts.

I think everybody has- certainly we do and I think the city obviously has the needs of the citizens of Winnipeg at heart and trying best to deliver services to them and capital expenditures to them, trying to recognize there are needs all over the city and trying to at least accommodate some of those needs as time goes along. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairman, I think one of the difficulties is that there are needs all over the city of Winnipeg.

One of the things we see from our perspective is that the inner city is being made to pay, in terms of reduced services, for the increasing demand in what we see as urban sprawl. I wonder if the minister would like to comment on the overall financial support to the City of Winnipeg. I know this line deals with capital programs, but I am looking at the-from the City of Winni peg's perspective what we have is obviously a difficulty in coping with urban sprawl, a difficulty in coping with a debt, which from our perspective was left by a City Council which was composed of many members of the present government.

Now we see that present government from our perspective offloading costs onto the City of Winnipeg. I wonder if the minister has looked at the proposals that have been offered by CUPE, for example, for the reconsideration of the portioning element of city government-of city allotments rather, which have shifted in the last year to decrease the amount of money available from businesses. CUPE, I think, has also suggested that the government reconsider some of the tax credits to homeowners.

I wonder if this minister has had the opportunity to look at those proposals and if he will be able to share his opinion on that. Mr. Ernst: Mr. Deputy Chairman, not yet.

2559 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 19 91 Ms. Friesen: Would the minister undertake to examine those proposals made by one of the city's largest union to the Minister of Urban Affairs and to give his response to those? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Deputy Chairman, I will certainly undertake over the next few months to have a look at those proposals. For 19 91 the budgets are set in any event on all cases, both city and provincial, so it is unlikely there would be much change there. I will certainly have a look at what those proposals were. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, as a former city councillor, the minister must be aware of the difficulties that the city is facing. I wonder if he could give us his reflections on the offloading of costs onto the City of Winnipeg, from the perspective of this government. Mr. Ernst: Mr. Deputy Chairman, it is a moot point, I suppose. You might want to term certain activities one way or another as offloading or not offloading. The City of Winnipeg recognizes grants in 19 90 of $1 00 million, and in 19 91 , there is $1 00 million, give or take a hundred thousand or so.

While we are not providing them as much as they would like and we are not perhaps providing everything that they would ask for and so on, the fact of the matter is that we are not reducing them either. We have gone through the individual grant processes and so on, but ultimately-and some of that stuff is a function of volume as opposed to anything else. It relates to payments related to volume and so on, but by and large, it is about the same as last year, so if anything, it is certainly not offloading.

The question of individual contribution line by line throughout the city processes, we are not obviously in a position to give them a whole lot more money. We have indicated that. We have gone through that discussion earlier in the Estimates process. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairman, I think, with a city that is faced with a declining economic base and the GST, certainly the maintenance of the same dollars to the City of Winnipeg is, by any stretch of the definition, a form of offloading.

I am particularly concerned about the increasing welfare rolls that the City of Winnipeg has to face, many of these, in my view, brought on by the policies of this government, so that it is offloading in a double sense. Create the unemployment, charge the city with the unemployment costs that eventually come to them through the welfare rolls, and then refuse to assist them with any greater grants. Mr. Ernst: Well, Mr. Deputy Chairman, I do not know that I need to go through

chapter and verse what the member has heard on a number of occasions previously. The fact of the matter is, we have limited resources available. Notwithstanding the fact that every government in this country is faced with a significant problem, they spend too much money, and notwithstanding the fact that we all have good and valuable programs to carry out, we do not have, collectively, the money to carry them out. Now, in the case of a municipality, they have to tax for it because they cannot deficit finance. Provincial and federal governments can deficit finance.

Notwithstanding all of the things that have gone on, we are still facing a significant deficit in our provincial budget, so that basically it is like anybody else. We are spending more than we take in, and short of increasing taxes, which is quite frankly not an alternative from what I am hearing, that the public out there is fed up-the y do not want any more taxes. They have had enough. They say the taxes that they are paying are too high, so if that is the case, then you have two other options, I guess, and that is to cut your expenditures or to mortgage your future through higher deficits. We chose the former.

Ms. Friesen: The consequences of that choice, Mr. Deputy Chairman, are increasing unemployment and eventually people on the welfare rolls. The consequences of that are that the City of Winnipeg welfare rolls are expanding daily. How are you going to pay for it when you are offloading it onto a city which has a very limited taxation base, one in fact that is diminishing and one which is, in my view, very unfairly placed on a homeowner who is frequently on a restricted income or a fixed income? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Deputy Chairman, I disagree with the member in her

preamble associated with the question. I vehemently disagree with her that it is the policies of this government that created an international recession, a recession that is affecting countries all over the world, some to a greater degree than others, certainly, but nonetheless that is not significantly put into place by the policies of this go vernmen t. I am sur e we are not internationally recognized, and I am sure the member would also agree with that.

May 27, 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2560 With respect to the welfare rolls per se, there is the Canada Assistance Plan that does fund, both through the province and through the federal government, a significant portion, just the exact amount I do not have at my finger tips, but a significant portion of the welfare costs that the City of Winnipeg has to provide. Certainly, all of these additional costs are not borne solely by the municipality. In fact, by far, the largest amount is borne by the province and the federal government. *

(2200) Mr. Deputy Chairman: The hour now being 10 p.m., what is the will of the committee? An Honourable Member: Sit. Mr.' Dep uty Ch airman: Sit? Okay , we will continue. Mr. Carr: Mr. Deputy Chairman, I want to ask the minister a question related to capital transfers to the City of Winnipeg. Current estimates are that the bill for municipal infrastructure facing Canada over the next number of years will be something in the neighbourhood of $1 5 billion. Who is going to pay? Mr. Ernst: The taxpayer. Mr.

Carr: Is it the minister's position and the position of his government that that ought to be municipal taxpayers, provincial taxpayers, federal taxpayers or some combination of the three? Mr. Ernst: I do not know that this government has taken a specific position on that. There were a number of discussions ongoing with the Federation of Canadian Mun icipalities and the federal govern ment in past years. Support of those positions were, I think, most if not all of the provinces at the time. I am not sure where the proposition is at, at the moment.

I think the estimate, by and large, is perhaps a little high but nonethe less is a significant amount of money needed to replace infrastructure across the country. Mr. Carr: What is the position that this minister is going to take to discussions with the City of Winnipeg over the nex t year or so as the requirem en ts for mu nicipal in fras truc tu re replacement become more and more burdensome?

Is it the view of this minister and the government that the province has an important role to play, perhaps even as an equal partner, or is this yet another area where the province believes it is exclusively a municipal responsibility? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Deputy Chairman, certainly, we are of the view that we need to assist municipalities in terms of capital works, and Winnipeg in particular, as it relates to this department. We have done that consistently. However, again, it will be in large part based on our ability to pay, the same as everybody else.

The question of national approval on a national program, with everybody sort of buying in across the country, has been on the books for a long, long time. The federal governments have consistently refused to participate, saying it is a provincial-municipal responsibility. I would think that there is no quick or magic answer to this matter. It is going to cost a lot of money, and we do not have a lot of money to pay for it, but I think maybe what has to happen is that everybody is going to have to start reprioritizing their capital dollars in terms of what municipalities should be doing.

Municipalities, in fact, have a traditional role. The traditional role is to provide the basic infrastructure upon which a community is based, and they have varied from that role considerably over time. It may be that the return to that role will be necessary ultimately to meetthe demands and needs of people associated with our urban centres. I do not have-- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Deputy Chairman : Order, please. Could I please have a little bit of quiet. Those members wishing to carry on a conversation, do it in the hall, and we will carry on our meeting here. Mr. Ernst: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, it is something that I think everybody is going to have to look, particularly in these times of limited financial resources, to take a second look, a third look and a fourth look perhaps on what they are spending their money on and to better prioritize how that is going to happen. Mr. Carr: Well, Mr. Deputy Cha irman, I am interested in the minister's choice of words because, in terms of the provincial role, he says, as funds are available or the ability to pay, the ability to raise funds. At least the minister is admitting, maybe implicitly, that the province has a role to play.

Is that what he means to say, that in his view, in the way he views the relationship between the municipality and the province, the province has a responsibility to help fund the replacemen t of mun icipal infrastructure? Is that the position of the minister and his government?

2561 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 27, 19 91 Mr. Ernst: Mr. Deputy Chairman, we have his tor ically, all provincial governme nts have historically, made capital contributions, capital grants, to the City of Winnipeg to meet a variety of needs. Some have had strings attached, some have not. As I indicated earlier, we are in the process of putting together urban projects capital allocation for the City of Winnipeg, a component of which would be urban infrastructure replacement. We see that as a significant focus within our mandate of capital contributions to the city. Mr. Depu ty Chairm an: Ite m 4.(

a) Financial Assistance to the City of Winnipeg, $1 4,900,000. Shall the item pass? The item is accordingly passed. An Honourable Member: Hold on, the memberfor Transcona had asked a question with regard to-- Mr. Deputy Chairman: I am sorry. I had not seen it. Mr. Reid: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the Community Revitalization Program, the Transcona project, I believe, is part of that process. Could the minister give me an update on that program for the comm unity, as well as the amount of funds expended for that program to date? Mr. Ernst: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, these primarily are driven by a resident's committee from the community and city staff with assistance. They are in the process, at the moment, of developing a com muni ty revitalization strat egy, which is anticipated in the very near future for review and adoption. Our contribution to the end of December was $91 ,000 approximately, but we have committed future-I think it is a total provincial contribution of $1 million. The total budget for the whole project is $2 million, so the city would contribute $1 million, and we would contribute $1 million overall. Mr.

Reid: Would the minister tell me, please, what type of checks and balances there are in the system to ensure that the monies are expended according to whatever agreements are in place? What kinds of safeguards are built in that the province would oversee in that process? Mr. Ernst: In terms of the plan, that is developed by the resident committee in conjunction with city staff, then it is approved by the City of Winnipeg Planning Committee, and then it is approved by the Department of Urban Affairs.

In terms of program expenditure and so on, it has those approval processes in place, in terms of it, I guess, as an ongoing monitoring activity as well between both the city and the province over these activities as they proceed. This is a model that has been in place for a long time and has worked reasonably well. I do not think there is any major fear of things going astray. Anything can happen, but it has been a model in place for a long time. Mr.

Reid: The reason I ask these questions is approximately a month ago the CRP Committee in Transcona voted to expend some, I believe it was $340,000, of the monies to revitalize the downtown

section of the community. I have not seen any progress on that expenditure of funds to date, and I am just wondering the steps of progression they would have to go through to determine when we can expect some development to start taking place and what role the province plays in that process. Mr. Ernst: They may have determined, not voted to spend, but may have determined that they wanted to allocate $340,000 of the money toward that end. As part of the plan for the community improvement area, that was the way they felt best to allocate the resources. That has got to go through the process.

Once they finalize their strategy, then they have got to go to the City Planning Committee and have it approved there, and then it has got to come to the provincial Department of Urban Affairs for approval. There is a ways yet to come. That is why you are not going to see things happen, sort of immediately. Mr. Reid: Could the minister give me some kind of an indication of what time frame we would expect on the province's part for approval of those funds? Is it more or less a rubber stamp process after the City of Winnipeg has approved the expenditure of those funds? Mr.

Ernst: Historically, what has happened is that once the community has developed a plan and it has been approved by the city, the province does not particularly interfere unless there is some blatant kind of thing that is happening. By and large, historical ly, it takes four to six weeks and we approve it. It is on its way. Mr. Reid: The concern I have is that if the approval is not received within, say, the next 30 days, then that project may not get off the ground for this season as far as development is concerned. That is why I raise these questions at this time.

May 27, 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2562 Mr. Deputy Chairm an: Item Ass is tance to the City $14 ,900,00�pass. Item 4.(

b) Riverbank $20,00�ass. 4.(

a) Financial of Winn ipeg Deve lopment Item 4.(

c) Acquisition/Construction of Physical Assets - Canada-Manitoba Winnipeg Core Area Renewed Agr eement: (1 ) Payments to Other Implementing Jurisdictions $2,361 ,60�pass;

(2) Paym ents to Other Pr ovin cial Departments $775,200- pass;

(3) Departmental Expenditures $573,60�pass. Resolution 13 6: RESOLVED that the re be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 8,630,400 for Urban Affairs for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March 19 92-pas s. • (2210 ) The last item to be considered for the Estimates for the Department of Urban Affairs is item 1. (

a) Minister's Salary $1 0,300. At this point we request that the minister's staff leave the table for the consideration of this item. Item 1. (a). Mr. Doug Martlndale (Bur rows): I have a number of questions for the mi ni st er, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. I noticed in the Annual Report for Urban Af fair s , 19 89-90, tha t the Adv isor y Committee for the Protection of the Winnipeg International Airport is under the jurisdiction, that the minister is part of this advisory committee. The first item that is mentioned in the brief

summary in the annual report is that residential developments have been approved that are within the high aircraft noise ex posure areas adjacent to the Win nipeg International Airport. One of those that was approved prior to the writing of this annual report, I presume, was none other than Rotary Pines. I have some very interesting documents in addition to what is printed in the report that I think shed more light on the situation and on which I would like to ask some questions.

First of all, I have a letter written by the president of the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, copies of which were sent to the federal Minister of Transport, the provincial Minister of Highways and Transportation, the mayor of Winnipeg and the former Minister of Housing. This is dated July 20, 19 89. First of all, the letter expresses concern that the Pines development would introduce approximately 220 residents into the 35 NEF aircraft noise exposure area to the south-- Mr. Deputy Chairman: Order, please. Could I ask the honourable member to deal with Urban Affairs?

I believe he is dealing with Housing here, the Minister's Salary under Housing, which will be another line in another department. Mr. Martindale: I am dealing with Urban Affairs in that this minister is part of the Advisory Committee for the Protection of the Winnipeg International Airport. I wanted to ask questions about the report of the advisory committee and the questions that were raised by the Chamber of Commerce and others about housing that infringes on the airport. I would hope that the Chairperson would find that in order . Mr.

Deputy Chairman: I would ask the minister, is that report under Urban Affairs or Housing? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Deputy Chairman, the report, I think, was commissioned, the Winnipeg area, the airport advisory committee report was commissioned by the former Minister of Urban Affairs. It is difficult at this point when the staff have left and we are discussing the minister's salary. The member, who has sat here through every single, virtually, minute of our Estimates process, when he could have asked those questions when we had an opportunity to refer to staff, in fact did not utter a word throughout the whole process.

I appreciate that he has some political games of what is going on with respect to the Rotary Pines project, and he will have every opportunity to discuss that when we get into the Department of Housing Estimates, which will follow shortly these Estimates considerations. Mr. Deputy Chairman: I am going to ask the honourable member to please deal with that subject under Housing. Mr.

Martlndale: Well, I agree that I have a bit of a predicament in that the questions that I would have asked would have required detailed answers and theref ore probably it would have been advantageous for the minister to have his staff present. I understood that I could ask any question at all under the Minister's Salary, but I will accept the ruling of the Chair in this instance and defer all these questions to the minister's Housing-- Mr. Deputy Chairman: Order, please.

2563 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 199 1 Mr. Martindale: I will defer all these questions to the minister's Housing Estimates. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Thank you. Item 1. (

a) Minister's Salary $1 0,300-pass. Resolution 13 3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $471 ,700 for Urban Affairs for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March 19 92-p ass. This completes the Estimates for the Department of Urban Affairs. The next set of Estimates that will be considered by this

section will be the Committee of Supply, or the Estimates for the Senior s Directorate, which will be tomorrow. Committee rise. SUPPL Y-N ORTHERN AFFAIRS Madam Chairman (Louise Dacquay): Order, please. Would the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply is dealing with the Department of Northern Affairs. We are on page 14 2, item 3. Agreements Management and Co-ordina tion. Excuse me, we have not passed the resolution, right, dealing with the resolution, Local Government Development? Would the minister's staff please enter the Chamber. Ite m 3. Agr ee me nts Man age men t and Co-ordination (

a) Northern Deve lopment Co-ordination ( 1 ) Salaries-page 14 2. Mr. Oscar Lathlln (The Pas) : Madam Chair, we are at (XIX) 3.(a), right? Madam Cha irman : Item 3.(

a) Nor ther n Development Co-ordination

(1) Salaries, yes-page 14 2. Mr. Lathlln: Thank you for that clarification. Madam Chair, before we broke off this afternoon, I was still trying to get some clarification from the Minister of Northern Affairs in terms of where the discussions and consultations are with the Indian bands, the federal government, as well as other parties that will be affected by the treaty land entitlement.

The reason that I want to come back to that area, Madam Chair, is because the minister spoke with a lot of authority on the way the consultations were going with the aboriginal people, the federal government and other parties who are affected by the treaty land entitlement process.

My question to the minister was going to be, because he seems to have, as he told this committee before it broke off this afternoon, a lot of authority on all these discussions that have been going on between the various parties that are involved in the treaty land entitlement process-I asked him where his department was or where his governmen t was in terms of the consultation process between his department, his officials, and, in fact, which officials are leading the discussions with Indian bands and perhaps maybe give us a better picture of where he is at in terms of that consultation process and negotiation process.

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs): Madam Chairman, I indicated earlier it is a priority with the governm ent, treaty lan d entitlement settlement, and we are currently in discussions with the Island Lake Bands as well as the War Lake Band and the area of llford, Manitoba. We are very open and encouraging through the Assembly of Chiefs and also through any individual bands, Swan Lake being another band. We are discussing very aggressively what the specific claims are that they have. They have asked for or are reviewing the 19 86 proposal which was basically the Saskatchewan formula.

We will move aggressively to discuss with any band the full proposal. On an ongoing basis, we have bands that come forward showing interest, and as soon as they do, we sit down to aggressively discuss the whole issue with them. As I say, as soon as the proposals are firmed up, I am prepared to advance them to the federal government and to resolve them. Mr. Lathlln: I am still not sure where the minister is at in terms of the consultation, the negotiation, the discussions that he says he has so far extensively carried out with all affected parties.

Now, on the one hand, he tells us that he has had a lot of meetings with the parties affected by the treaty land entitlement process, but he is not able to tell us whether he is halfway there, three-qua rters of the way there, or whether he has any target points, target areas, even target dates. Mr. Downey: Madam Chairman, I guess if I am not specific enough for the member, it is because when you are in discussions and negotiations dealing with three parties, you can assume that you are further down the path than you maybe are.

May 27, 199 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2564 We have clearly indicated to the bands through the Assembly of Chiefs- and I am expecting a proposal back from them-clearly let them know how we are wanting to resolve the issue. We have communicated with the Island Lake Bands. We have been invited to a conference with Treaty 5. We have discussions going on with Swan Lake. We have discussions going on with the War Lake people in llford.

Madam Chairman, I can only say that the process is moving a lot faster now, and there is more chance of resolve in the near future, a lot better chance now after the Prime Minister's comments and directive to his staff. There is a lot more chance now than what took place following the failure of the 1 986 proposal. What happened after 19 86, for two years I heard nothing from the previous administration as it related to the treaty land entitlement.

Then for some time after we got into office, there were some other activities that were developed between the bands and the government, and now I am pleased to report that I would say progress is being made. I am not going to put on the record here tonight a specific time. I could say that I would like to have it happen within a period of one year. If negotiations and discussions could be successful in that period of time, then I would be very encouraged. The key thing is that all parties are working to an objective goal and that is to settle the treaty land entitlements.

I cannot do any better than that at this particular time, but just to say that it is the will of the government. I know it is the will of the bands, and I know it is now the will of the federal government to resolve the long-term outstanding issue. I cannot disclose anything more at this particular time oth er than the department whic h I am responsible for is aggressively working on it. * (2010 ) Mr.

Lathlln: Madam Chair, again, the reason that I keep asking for clarification on that issue is because this afternoon the minister attempted to m inimize my seriousness and sincerity on the issue by trying to lecture me on whether I was serious enough, on whether I was committed enough to the North in terms of settling the treaty land entitlement.

When I qu estioned his sincer ity and his seriousness, he got very sensitive, of course, and he projected himself as having great authority in the way that he spoke about the consultation process that he keeps referring to, as well as the meetings that have supposedly been going on between his department and the federal officials. May I ask the minister then, if he is not able to pinpoint where he is at exactly in terms of consultation, negotiations and discussions with the Indian bands affected, can he tell us then where he is at in terms of discussions with the federal government? Mr.

Downey: Madam Chairman, following the ann oun ce men t by the Prime Mi nister, I communicated directly with the federal minister responsible for the treaty land entitlements, the Honou rable Tom Siddon, dir ectly after that announcement made by the federal government, indicating clearly to him how we were supportive of his statement and anxious to get on with the treaty land entitlement settlement. Up to this point, I am not aware of a response from the federal government, but we are clearly on the record as a province as wanting to advance the discussions and negotiations and the final resolve to it. Mr.

Lathlln: Madam Chair, I thank the minister for the response. I would like to ask him another ques tion regarding treat y land entitl ement negotiations. I believe this afternoon he said something to the effect that there would be no problems; the bands are now into the selection process; they are looking at potential areas where land entitlement would come about.

Could I ask the minister then, once more this evening, whether he anticipates any problems or opposition from other com peting interes ts , particularly Hydro, Repap, mining companies, Highways and so on, or even private industry, municipalities, LGDs, those other competing interests that would be in the North which could conceivably get in the way of treaty land entitlement, if the minister is so optimistic? Mr.

Downey: If I understand the context or the direction of which the question was asked, Madam Chairman-are there other individuals who are interested or groups who are showing concern as to the selection process-my direct answer is yes. Communities have put forward their interest as to the selection process. I am sure Hydro probably has, because we are talking about affecting other peoples in the diff erent communities where selections are taking place. The direct answer is

2565 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 19 91 yes, there have been people who brought their concerns forward. I think it would be important to ask for the input and the support of members opposite-the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin), the member for Churchill in trying to resolve some of these issues. Their input I think would be most helpful to try and work our way through the whole treaty land entitlement process. I think it could be a major contribution that could be made by the members opposite. Mr.

La thlln: Madam Chair, the minister keeps questioning my sincerity in a process that will hopefully lead towards treaty land entitlement. I believe this afternoon I reminded him that I come from one of the bands which could potentially end up with some form of treaty land entitlement somewhere down the road. How he could question my sincerity in this process I have no idea because, as I told him this afternoon, I am a treaty Indian. I am a member of The Pas Indian Band.

If The Pas Band could get some kind of treaty land entitlement tomorrow, I would be the happiest person probably in this Chamber right now, besides the Minister of Northern Affairs. The reason I asked that question about other competing interests is because he seems to be so optimistic that things are going well. He keeps telling us about his commitment to finally settle these long-standing issues, and yet now he says there might be problems down the road because there are other competing interests out there.

My question to him is-the reason I keep asking him if he has any idea what kind of time frame we are looking at and now, just a couple of minutes ago, he told us that there may be problems, and that is the reason why I wanted to get some clarification as to what kind of time frames we are looking at. Are there going to be serious problems that could potentially impede or get in the way or hinder his progress in settling the treaty land entitlement? Mr. Downey: Madam Chairman, I want to clear something up on the record with the member for The Pas.

I want him to understand clearly that my only reference to his sincerity was following an attack on me as to how serious I was about the whole issue. I responded by clearly indicating-and I think the record will show it-t hat I was really responding to his attack on my sincerity in saying that the way in which it appeared he was approaching it was less than probably sincere, when he was attempting to probably get a little overly involved politically.

I do not think-and I apologize to the member for maybe overdoing it at the particular time because I do believe truly that working together as members of the Legislature, we can resolve a lot of these outstanding issues. The fact that the treaty land entitl em ent -(in ter jec tion)- the - memb er for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) can quite freely stand and put something on the record if he has a comment to make. The area of which we are dealing, the treaty land entitlement issue has been outstanding for how many years-n ot tens of years, not small numbers, but probably 1 00 years or close to it.

The treaty land entitlement has been close to that, has been outstanding. I am not taking lightly the resolve of the issue. I am sure there will be obstacles that will arise, but the determination of the government, the willingness of the opposition, the willingness of the federal government and the willingness of the bands to bring a resolve to this I think is crucial. What I see in our community today, what I see in our province today, what I hear from the federal government today, what I hear from the bands today are that all these elements are coming together.

I see this as a time in which I think we can accomplish, maybe not in the grand scheme of things, but we can start with some of the bands and get on with the job of resolving it. •

(2020) I can tell you, sincerity is here from me and the government. I believe there is definitely sincerity here from the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) from his comments. I know he is a member of The Pas Band and anxious to see a resolve to any outstanding claims they may have. I think rather than fight politically, rather than to try and do anything that is non-supportive, it would not do the overall cause any good.

I am one who, in political life, in political reality, when you start setting timetables and you do not accomplish that timetable and a time frame, what you end up with is that partners or groups involved in trying to reach an objective-the time frame by which you have attempted to reach it in becomes the issue rather than getting on with trying to resolve it.

May 27, 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2566 As I say, I would like to have some of them resolved within a year's time, but I cannot stand here today and say that I can guarantee that to the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin). I can tell you, I know in political life that four years or five years as a mandate of a government is a short period of time. It is a really short period of time because the workload, the agenda, that you have to face in whatever department is so great and the time goes by so quickly that you, in fact, have time going by without accomplishing the things you want.

What I am saying to the member and the House is, it is an uppermost issue in my mind. It is something that I want to show some resolve in as the Minister responsible for Northern and Native Affairs and I think we can do it. Now, if we cannot in a reasonable period of time, I stand to be criticized, but it is not going to be that I have not given it my best attempts as a minister. Mr. Lathlln: Even though the minister on May 21 told this committee: treaty land entitlement remains a priority of our government.

I have written to both the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs and the Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs stating my willingness to meet and establish an effective process for negotiating outstanding treaty land entitlement. Even after he has said that, he is still-am I to understand that he is still-perhaps he foresees very serious problems in the negotiations, the discussions and consultations, particularly from other competing interests?

Am I to understand that what he said in his speech on May 21 and what he is saying today are two different things, and that he is not at all sure what the Expected Results will be, even though in his Supplementary Information for Legislative Review on Northern Affairs, he has Objectives, he has Activity Identification, he has Expected Results? Am I to conclude from his comments that, contrary to what he said on May 21 , he still has some serious concerns as to whether, in fact, those objectives of treaty land entitlement could be met? Mr. Downey: Madam Chairman, let me make it clear again to the member.

As I stated before, it has been a historical issue that we are dealing with, the treaty land entitlement. I am not saying that it is an easy road. I am not saying that there are not competing interests, because there are. I am saying that I think collectively working together with a political will to resolve the issue, I think, is extremely helpful. What is as well extremely helpful has been the statement made by the Prime Minister who clearly indicated their willingness, as a federal government, to get on with the job of resolving the treaty land entitlement issue. I have to take him at his word.

I have immediately, following that, communicated with the federal minister telling of our willingness to proceed.

There will be, let us face it, there will be competing interests in some of the properties, but I can assure him that as this country is developed and as we have seen things happen, that if you take a defeatist attitude at this point without even attempting to accomplish a resolve to it, then I do not think the member for The Pas or any other member in this House would see that as an appropriate thing to do-to throw up your hands and say there are too many obstacles, too many competing forces so we do not even try to resolve the issue. That is not what I want to do.

I do not think that is what the member wants to do. I think in realistic terms we have to appreciate there are some obstacles out there, but I do not think the obstacles are so great that we cannot, in fact, deal with them and get on with concluding some long-term outstanding commitments that were made to the Indian people of this province under treaty land entitlement. Mr.

Lathlln: Madam Chair, perhaps I could ask the minister then to table or share with us, with this committee, those letters that he has written to the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs as well as to the Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs of Canada. I would also like to advise him that if I had such a defeatist attitude, as he suggests, I probably would not be here this evening. Mr. Downey: Madam Chairperson, I did not say that he had a defeatist attitude, and I am prepared to table the documents. Pass? Madam Chair man: Ite m 3.(

a) No rthern Develo pment Co-ordi nation : (1 ) Salaries $1 57,900-pass; 3.( a)

(2) Other Expenditures $23,200-pass. Item 3. (

b) Agreem ents Mana gement: (1 ) Salaries $292,700-pass. Mr. Lathlln: Madam Chair, perhaps I could get some clarification. This part of the document has to do with the co-or dination, government negotiations for agreements, programs and services under the Northern Flood Agreement, northern development and co-ordination of economic development

2567 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 27, 1991 branches. That is the Northern Flood Agreement. Could I get that clarification? Is that the Northern Flood Agreement? Mr. Downey: Yes, Madam Chairperson. Mr. Lathlln : Madam Chair, thank you very much for that clarification. I appreciate it very much. I want to ask the minister, the last time I was visiting Norway House and Cross Lake I had received several inquiries as they relate to the Northern Flood Agreement.

Regularly in the House he tells us about the compensation funds that have been forwarded to the Northern Flood bands so far, my question to him is, how much compensation money has been given to the Northern Flood bands and on what condit ions? Are they advance payments? Are they partial payments? Are they payments in conj un ction with other federal-provincial programs? Maybe he could elaborate on that for us. Mr. Downey: Madam Chairman, as the member knows, there are four parties to the Northern Flood Agreement. There were five bands, there was the federal government, Manitoba Hydro and the Province of Manitoba.

I cannot speak for the federal government, although that information, I am sure, is available, but I can only speak for the province at this particular time. As I understand it, since the signing

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-2-51b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 2nd hansardpdf 51b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	33e254a26890057f452e95987a7dadf6721f4223

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