Manitoba Hansard — 10 May 2001 (Sitting 28B, 37th Legislature, 2nd Session)

37-2-28b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LI No. 28B- 1:30 p.m., Thursday, May 10, 2001 ISSN 0542-5492

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, H1m. CERILLJ, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLJN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MURRAY, Stuart NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, lion. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott, Hon. STEFANSON, Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D. P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D P N.D.P. N.D.!'. l'.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

16 09 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thur sday, May 10, 2001 The House met at 1:30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Manitoba Hydro Lines Routes Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Erna Weins, Steffie Karpiak, Valerie Jaworski and others, praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro (Mr. Sel inger) consider alterna tive routes for the additional 230kV and SOOkV lines proposed for the R.M. of East St. Paul. Kenaston Underpass Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Margaret Gannon, Linda Wight, Kevin Halko and others, praying that the Premier of Manitoba (Mr. Doer) consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Megan Provencher, Ken Kateryniuk, Dan Radicks and others, praying that the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support con struction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. READING AND RECEI VING PETITIONS Manitoba Hydro Lines Routes Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler), I have reviewed the petition and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Cle rk, please read. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the prov ince of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the R.M. of East St. Paul has the highest concentration of high voltage power lines in a residential area in Manitoba; and THAT the R.M. of East St.

Paul is the only jurisdiction in Manitoba that has both a SOOkV and a 230kV line directly behind residences; and THAT numerous studies have linked cancer, in particular childhood leukemia, to the prox imity of power lines. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro consider alternative routes for the additional 230kV and SOOkV lines proposed for the R.M. of East St. Paul . Kenaston Underpass Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Fort Whyte (Mr.

Loewen), I have reviewed the petition and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Cle rk, please read. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the intersection at Wilkes and Kenaston has grown to become the largest unseparated crossing in Canada; and THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad crossing is twelve times the accepta ble limit as set out by Transport Canada; and

1610 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10 , 200 1 THAT vehicles which have to wait for trains at this intersection bum up approximately $1. 4 million in fuel, pol lute the environment with over 8 tons of emissions and cause approxi mately $7.3 million in motorist delays every year. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. * (13: 35) Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Morris (Mr. Pitura), I have reviewed the petition and it complies with the rules and practices of the House.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Cl erk, please read.

Madam Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the intersection at Wilkes and Kenaston has grown to become the largest unseparated crossing in Canada; and THAT the volume of traffic for this railroad crossing is twelve times the acceptable limit as set out by Transport Canada; and THAT vehicles which have to wait for trains at this intersection bum up approximately $1. 4 milli on in fuel, pol lute the environment with over 8 tons of emissions and cause approx imately $7.3 million in motorist delays every year.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIO NERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Premier of Manitoba consider reversing his decision to not support construction of an underpass at Kenaston and Wilkes. MINISTER IAL STATEMENTS Building Consensus Forum Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Mr. Speaker, I have a statement for the House. I am pleased to rise today to inform the members of our Assembly, and all Manitobans, about the Northern Housing Forum entitled "Building Consensus" that took place in Thompson on Monday and Tuesday of this week.

Housing is an integral part of our Government's Northern Development Strategy, and developing affordable and appropriate housing is necessary to ensure the liveability, health and character of the communities of our North. The forum was developed in a unique way with the co-ordinated efforts of our province and the key northern organizations, including the Northern Association of Community Councils known as NACC, the Manitoba Metis Federation, Manitoba Keewatinowi Okim aka nak, MKO, the Assembly of Manitoba Chief s, as well as the northern urban industrial com munities.

Each contributed a staffperson, a technical person, to the planning of the Assembly and each had voting del egates to the Assembly in appropriate proportions. The main goal of the forum was to give northern communities and stakehold ers an opportunity to discuss common areas of need and priority in housing and to identify opportunities to partner between communities, First Nations, governments and others.

The forum provided residents of northern Manitoba, those most famil iar with the housing needs and challenges in their respective communities, the opportunity to discuss, prioritize and vote upon relevant issues and resolutions in regard to issues of rehabilitation, construction, maintenance, energy conservation, new technologies suitable for northern conditions, community development and education and training programs. I am delig hted to report that the forum was both well attended and successful.

The forum, which is the first in a series of pla nning processes, will lead to action being taken to address the poor living conditions in northern, rural and remote communities. Manitoba and the five partner organizations have agreed to a long-term partnership that will, among other things, deal with some of the development issues that have prevented the investment of the private sector in the North, in

May IO, 200I LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA I6II particula r in housing. It is recognized that there is a need to develop a co-operative and colla borative strategy with Canada and First Nations communities in support of housing for all Manitobans. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): I thank the minister for his statement or report, if you will, on the meetings that occurred earl ier this week. The point, I think, that is most important to remember around this discussion is that there has been considerable turmoil in housing in this country over the last half a dozen years or more.

As was discussed in Esti mates this morning, by the minister at least, one of the most troublesome aspects is that we have seen withdrawal on a broad basis from the housing responsibility of the federal government. I would recognize and compliment the fact that this forum is offering an opportunity for those who have a lot at stake to talk about some co-operative development, and at the same time I hope we all have an opportunity to put some pressure on the federal government to consider the direction that they intend to take. * (13 :40) Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, I ask for leave to speak on the minister's statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? [Agreed] Mr. Gerrard: I welcome the comments of the Minister responsible for Housing (Mr. Sale) and would just add that one of the developments over the last number of years which I think is quite promising is the increasing involvement of various people in the North, and particularly in the First Nations communities, in the building and construction of housing in their communities and els ewhere.

I think that this is an area of entrepreneurship that is welcome and needs to be encouraged and developed further. Provincial Mining Week Hon. MaryAnn Mihychuk (Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines): I have a statement for the House. I am very ple ased to draw members' attention to the proclamation in front of you that proclaims May II to I7 as Provincial Mining Week in Manitoba. The samples in front of you are Manitoba granite, supplied by the courtesy of Canital Granite, a Manitoba producer of granite since I986.

Canital harvests the rock composed primarily of feldspa r and quartz from three quarries about 80 kilometres east of Winnipeg. The blocks are cut, transported from the quarry to the processing pla nt here in Winnipeg where they are further cut and polished for use in a variety of products. Granite continues to be popular for its unique decorative attributes, along with its versatili ty and dura bility.

More and more homes are using granite for countertops and flooring, especially in this excel lent economic environ ment in Manitoba and all the more reason to cel ebrate Mining Week in Manitoba, given some of the positive developme nts that have taken place over the past year. Hudson Bay Mining & Smelting is investing approximately $1 billion in Manitoba over the next 16 years to extend copper and zinc mining in the Flin Flon and Snow Lake regions. Inco Ltd. is investing $70.4 milli on towards deepening its Birch Tree Nickel Mine in Thompson.

New Brittania Mine in Snow Lake is well positioned to continue operations long into the future. Record demand and prices for commodities like platinum, palladium, tantalum, diamond has fuelled explo ration of these known traditional commodities. Most notable is the diamond rush currently taking place in the northeastern part of the province. Unprecedented levels of explor ation for tantalum are taking place in southeastern Manitoba, home to Canada's only producing tantalum mine, the Tanco Mine at Bernie Lake.

Most importantly, we need to cele brate Provincial Mining Week to salute the mining communities and their residents who keep mining alive. It is important to recognize the rich history of Manitoba's mining communities. The strong willed, self -rel iant residents are the backbone of the mining industry and have contributed greatly to its success. I would encourage all honourable members to join me tomorrow morning, at I 0 a.m., for a tour of the Great Canadian Mine

1612 LEGIS LATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10 , 200 1 Show exhibit that will be stationed at the front of the Legisla ture . The Great Canadian Mine Show will be making the rounds of Manitoba com munities throughout the year to draw attention to the minerals industry and the invaluable contribution it makes to the livelihood of all of us in Manitoba. Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): I thank the minister for her comments in declaring and proclaiming Mining Week in Manitoba. We on this side too believe it is an important part of the Manitoba economic environment.

We recognize the fact that mining has done well in the past years. Certainly I can say on this side and I think members on this side would certainly say they were proud to be part of a government that recognized the importance of this sector in the North. We did so by offering things like $9 milli on to encourage mining and investment and explora tion. The minister mentions about new expl oration, and again we have discussed this in Estimates about the MEAP program with three years of additional funding of 8.2.

I can tell the minister, while I share some of her optimism, that there are certain challen ges ahead for this industry, as we all know. I refer briefly to a PricewaterhouseCoopers report, and I know the Government is famil iar with that company, on Canadian mining taxation, 2001. It has suggested that Manitoba, just four years ago, ranked seventh in terms of effective corporate mining taxes. Today they are tenth. I know that is a concern, and that is a concern that we all have to deal with.

As we discuss differences on how we approach things, the mining industry has told us that meaningful tax relief is important for them to be competitive and competitive around the world. * (13: 45) One of the other notes I make mention of in the submission, it just states that the overall average corporate tax in Canada is just over 44 percent. Manitoba is now 46 percent. Latin America is averaging 28.5. I off er this not as much as a criticism but a suggestion that there are opportunities and ways of enhancing the mining industry's opportunities in Manitoba.

We certainly know that it is a great job provider in the province of Manitoba and they provide top- quality, high-end paying jobs. We must be aware of that when we are talking about encouraging and enticing new companies to set up and develop in the province of Manitoba that something they are considering is the tax rates they are charged. On behalf of my col leagues, I join with the minister. I welcome her proclamation today. Mining Week allows us to recognize the values, and we share in that same happiness and wish Mining Week to be very successf ul. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, I ask for leave to speak on the minister's statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? [Agreed] Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, I wish to not only emphasize the importance of mining and the mining industry, but to try to stress the importance in this industry, as in agriculture, of thinking of the value-added dimension as well as the basic industry. It was a number of years ago, under a previous government, where Manitoba lost a research and development value-added initiative in this area because Alber ta was more forward thinking than the government of Manitoba of that day.

I think we need to be on the look out for areas of value-added where we can promote and make sure is happening in Manitoba the research and development and value-added aspect as well as the basic mining. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Scott Smith (Min ister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, it is my plea sure to table the Annual Report of the Public Utilities Board for the year 2000. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery, where we have from Hastings School 45 Grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Barry Wittevrongel and Ms. Theresa Oswald. This school is located in the

May 10 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1613 constituency of the honourable Member for Riel (Ms. Asper). Also in the public gallery, we have from John Taylor Collegia te 41 Grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Frank Boehm. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Assiniboia (Mr. Rondeau). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Arena/Entertainment Complex Crocus Fund Investment Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, as the Premier (Mr.

Doer) found out with his Government's purchase of the Pan Am medical clinic, in any deal the devil is in the details. I notice from the prospectus that was issued by the Crocus Fund, January 12 , 200 I, and on which basis Manitobans invested over $25 million of their retirement funds, funds they are counting on for their retirement, invested on the basis of this prospectus.

This prospectus clea rly indicates that any investment by the Crocus Fund in real property or in interest in real property that has a debt or an oblig ation that is secured or that is held primarily for the purpose of gaining or producing growth revenue that is rent, is illeg al. I would ask the Premier of this province when he became aware that an investment by the Crocus Fund in the proposed new arena was ille gal? Hon.

MaryAnn Mihychuk (Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines): The labour sponsored funds have certain investment opportunities which are called "eligible" and certain other ones which are "ineligible ." They also have a proportion of their investment allowance which allows those funds to invest in any venture that they choose, so I will take the information as notice.

I will investigate the investment, but there are two categories in which Crocus could invest in the Pan Am Games, both under special authority by the previous Minister of Industry, who has the authority to grant that or perhaps they are using their allowance which allows them to invest in any investment. * (13 :50) Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Premier (Mr.

Doer) is: Given in the prospectus issued January 12 , 200 1, which was used by the Crocus Fund to convince Manitobans to invest over $25 million of their retirement income in this fund, given that in this prospectus it states and I am asking the minister-i f the following ineligible investment and interest in real property or a debt obligation that is secured by an interest in real property, when did the Premier become aware that it was going to be ill egal for the Crocus Fund to invest in real properties such as a downtown arena? Ms. Mihychuk: Mr.

Speaker, I would be glad to try to cla rify the information, but I would not want the member across the way to misle ad the public on the investment of Crocus or their abil ity that a labour-sponsored fund has to make investments. There is the ability of labour sponsored funds to take a certain portion of their portfolio and invest in what is called "ineligible"- [interjection] An Honourable Member: Not ill egal. Ms. Mihychuk: Not ille gal investments.

So I would suggest that the terminology that the member across the way uses, he needs to be careful with the terminology, because what we are talking about is fairly technical, and there is a degree of flexibility that Crocus has to make investments in anything that they would choose. Mr. Loewen: I will ask the Premier (Mr.

Doer) this: Given that they misled Manitobans by issuing a prospectus which clearly states, and I will quote: The foll owing investments constitute ineligible investments and interest in real property or a debt oblig ation that is secured by an interest in real property, will this Government allow people who invested on the basis of this prospectus and who invested for a minimum hold period of eight years, will the Premier allow these people to withdraw the $25 million investments that they made this year?

161 4 LEGISLAT IVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10 , 200 1 Ms. Mihychuk: Mr. Speaker, the member across the way may be opposed to investment in a new entertainment centre, but he is probably one of the only Manitobans opposed to it. The fact is that Crocus does have the ability, flexibility under the plan that was eligible during the previous government and is still eligible now. They have an AGM coming up on Saturday.

I suggest that the member attend, but I would be glad to provide more information to the member opposite about what investments are fully legal but are not eligible to be counted into their tax credit allotment. That does not make it ille gal. I would suggest that the member watch his language when he is talking about labour sponsored funds and Manitobans' investments. Mental Health Care System Accessibility-Rural Manitoba Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, we have heard from a rural Manitoban who has a serious concern about the lack of availability for treatment for residents outside of Winnipeg. The family doctor referred his daughter to the Health Sciences Centre for psychiatric treatment but was turned away at the hospital and instructed to seek help in rural Manitoba with a community mental health worker. Does the Premier (Mr. Doer) find it appropriate that when a patient is referred to psychiatric treatment she is denied and told to go to a counsellor? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, I would be happy to follow up on that particular circumstance if the member would provide me with particula rs and details. My experience often with questions of members opposite is they have not been entirely factual of all sides, and I would appreciate if the member would provide me with those details. We certainly will follow up because we follow up on all those issues and try to deal with them. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, the individual that brought this to our attention has indicated to us that he has sent a letter to the minister and the minister is aware of it. So I ask the question to the Premier.

This father was told by someone at the psych health at the Health Sciences Centre that all requests are automatically refused and are told to see a counsellor instead to cut down on the waiting list. Is the Premier going to allow this policy of treating rural Manitobans as second-class citizens to continue? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I find it passing strange. Today, we both attended an opening, by the way of a capital that was not in the Budget but has now been incorporated, of a wonderful health care facility for $37 milli on, $34 million of which came from the provincial Government. * (13 :55) Mr.

Speaker, I think that the new Boundary Trails hospital with its CAT scan that is now in operation, with the three radiologists that are now using digital technology, with the three operating rooms which are state of the art, with the dialysis units that are being expanded, with some of the imaging and computer work that is there, and with the broadband connections to the other facilities, will be a wonderfu l improve ment, and to suggest that people of rural Manitoba get second-class treatment is wrong.

We are proceeding with the Brandon Regional Health Centre, something that was promised seven times by members opposite. We need not apologize for that. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, when the Premier makes comments about the Boundary Trails facility, he is absolutely correct in everything that he says about it, but he forgets one thing, that it was started by members on this side of the House. Mr. Speaker, this family that I am referring to lives 32 kilometres from the Health Sciences Centre and yet has to travel some 80 kilometres to get to Morris where the nearest community health care worker is located. Mr.

Speaker, unlike a psychiatrist, a counsellor cannot make a diagnosis or prescribe medication and does not have training in special needs. So my question is: Can the Premier please

May 10 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1615 tell this father and daughter, and all Manitobans, when will he start ensuring our health care system offers equal access to all Manitobans? Mr. Doer: The minister said he will take the specifics as notice, but we have just had a new announcement in the last period of time on eating disorders, a program that is available for all Manitobans, a program that was recom mended to the members opposite and not proceeded with, Mr. Speaker.

We have had mental health strategies in place that are getting acceptance from the consumers of mental health and the other professionals of mental health. The member opposite is right. The tenders for the Boundary Trails hospital went out in June 19 99. The only problem was there was not any money in the capital budget. Mr. Speaker, there was no accounting for the capital budget, and that is why the Auditor did not give you a good housekeeping seal of approval. That Boundary Trails hospital was cancelled in 19 90; it was cancelled in 19 95.

Thankfully the equipment that we put in place will give first-class treatment to all Manitobans with that announcement today. Health Sciences Centre Out-patient Pharmacy Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Mr. Speaker, with the clos ure of the out-patient pharmacy at the Health Sciences Centre, many patients fear for their health and well-being as their very lives rely on the medicine they receive to treat their illnesses. Mr. Speaker, the Branum family whose seven-year-old son, Nicholas, is dependent on the out-patient program to provide vital drugs to treat his leukaemia have joined us in the gallery today.

Can the Minister of Health explain to the Branums and to all the Manitoba families who are affected by the clos ure of the pharmacy at Health Sciences Centre, why he allowed the situation at the centre, out-patient pharmacy, to degenerate to such an extent that the health of its patients is now at risk? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated in the Chamber last week, a decision was made by the WRHA last year with respect to the closu re of that pharmacy because of the inability to attract and maintain pharmacists at the Health Sciences Centre pharmacy because of a shortage of pharmacists. A decision was made to consoli date services at Misericordia Hospital. Mr. Speaker, processes were put in with respect to trying to provide for those services. It is quite cl ear that there have been difficulties, and I have met with several of the parents who are involved in this.

I have also met with CancerCare Manitoba with respect to this. I will comple te my answer next time. * (1 4:00) Mr. Maguire: Can the Minis ter of Health inform Lloyd Agnew, another constituent who is in the gallery today as well, along with other impacted citizens, whether or not the minister can guarantee kidney transpla nt patients, li ke Lloyd's wife, Sherry, who is dependent on anti rejection medication, that the quality of service she and others will receive will not be compromised due to a lack of management by this Government? Mr. Chomiak: As I indicated earlier, this decision was made regretfully.

The service that was provided at Health Sciences Centre was started about, I think, 20 or 30 years ago, Mr. Speaker, in order to help facil itate services to patients. It is a li ttle bit more complex, which is why I met with CancerCare Manitoba in regard to this. There is a move and a desire on some people's part to have a pharmacy, in fact, at CancerCare Manitoba. There is also a need and a desire to have some services at Health Sciences Centre.

The attempt to deal with this situation was to have the resources transferred over to Misericordia Hospital and attempt to put in place a system-[interjection] If the member wants to hear the answer, perhaps the member will lis ten to the answer, Mr. Speaker. I will comple te my answer next time.

1616 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10 , 200 1 Mr. Maguire: Can the minister explain why the out-patient pharmacy was transferred to the Misericordia before the pharmacists were properly trained and before the computers at the two facilities were compatible? Mr. Chomi ak: Mr. Speaker, there was a planning process, and a transitory stage was put in place. Obviously, there have been problems. What I have done is I have asked Dr.

Brian Postl of the WRHA to put all of the p!ayers [interjection] I have asked him to get together with all of the partners and come up with different alternatives to see if we can provide a better service or revamp the service that is already provided to make sure these things do not occur, and I am expecting recommendations shortly in order to improve the service. Health Care System Hallway Medicine Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River): Mr. Speaker, yesterday I had a very di sturbing call from a constituent who took her grandmother, 88 years of age, to Victoria Hospital on Sunday evening.

Her grandmother not only spent three days in hall way No. 5-appa rently they are numbering the hallways now-but had to wait 12 hours before having her ankle cast. Could the Minister of Health explain to my constituent why her grandmother had to spend three days in a busy hospital hall way when it claims to have elimin ated the culture of hall way medicine? Hon. Dave Chomi ak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, on today's date two years ago, when the member opposite was a member of the govern ment, there were 29 people in the hallways. Some Honour able Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, at that time, Victoria Hospital, which has difficulty, made a proposal to that government to expand. I can indicate that shortly we will be officially announcing the expansion of Victoria General Hospital in order to deal with the difficult structural situation they face there. Mrs. Dacquay: Mr. Speaker, could the Minister of Health please explain to my constituent and all Manitobans why the number of patients being treated in hallways at the end of April was more than four times higher than last year, if he has solved hall way medicine? Some Honour able Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr.

Chomi ak: As I have indicated in this House, we have put, since the time we came into office, the number of people in the hallways on the Web site for people to compare and to look at so that we could chart our progress. CIHI, which members opposite referred to yesterday, indicated that Manitoba had done the best job of any jurisdiction in the country with respect to hall way medicine, 80% reduction, and in fact that other jurisdictions, including Onta rio, adopted Manitoba's hallway position. Mr. Speaker, we are not perfect- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, as said previously, there are some structural problems in some facili ties which we have identified, which were identified two years ago, but we are now moving on with respect to Victoria Hospital. That should clear up the situation with respect to the Victoria, which has been a difficulty and problem. Mrs. Dacquay: Could the Minister of Health please explain to my constituent why her local hospital has had to resort to numbering its hallways? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I cannot answer that because the numbering in the hall ways commenced when the members were in government, firstly.

Secondly, what I can indicate is that we have done a better job in dealing with the hallways than any other jurisdiction in the country, and that has been recognized national ly. Thirdly, we are still taking effort. When there are problems, we wiii do everything in our power to try to solve those problems, and we are working at those problems.

May 10 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1617 One of the difficulties we are dealing with is a major capital expansion at Victoria Hospital, which I think will satisfy the needs for oncol ogy day surgery and related surgery that relate to that particular facility. Health Care System Hallway Medicine Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Health what he has to say to my constituent who brought her mother to the Grace Hospital as she was having a stroke.

They got to the hospital at quarter to three in the afternoon, and she was not seen until eleven o'clock that evening after she got progressively worse. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, again, I would like to see the particula rs from the member opposite. I do know that, in terms of statistics, two years ago at this time when the member opposite was a member on these benches, there were 29 in the hallw ays and they were doing nothing to deal with the situation. We have launched a comprehensive program to deal with the situation, and we will work at it every day and we continue to work at it.

Mr. Laurendeau: I am glad the minister has some heart and feeling for my constituents. Mr. Speaker, this lady waited until eleven o'clock in the evening. I wonder if the minister could tell me if he is changing the waiting rooms now into a stal ling room to prevent his hallway medicine. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I can indicate that, in fact, we have taken more initiatives and put more measures in pl ace than any other government to deal with this situation and that continues, firstly. Secondly, the culture of hall way medicine that-[interjection] An Honourable Member: It is a culture now.

Hal lway medicine is a culture now. Mr. Chomiak: Well, Mr. Speaker, if the Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach) wants to comment perhaps he can ask the question next. Some Honou rable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Chomiak: As I indicated, we put the numbers up on the Web site so people can take a look. We work at it. There are improvements that are going to be made as we speak, that are being made, and we continue to deal with this issue. We have done better than any other jurisdiction in the country. Mr.

Laurendea u: I am wondering if the Minister of Health could tell me if it is appropriate for a patient who is suffering from a stroke to wait in the waiting room, not in the hallway receiving services but in the waiting room. Is that appropriate for her to sit there for 10 hours in that waiting room before receiving service from the hospital? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I do not question the professionalism of the triage nurses or the doctors who provide and prescribe this service.

They work very hard under very difficult situations to provide service to patients and from what I hear in the system, do an ex cellent job. There are 14 million contacts in our health care system yearly, and the vast majority of people are very pleased with the professionalism, the dedication and hard work of our professionals. * (14 :10 ) Health Sciences Centre Out-patient Pharmacy Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, my question to the Minister of Health: In the book on the safety of health care in America called To Err is Human, there was an emphasis on the need to put in place processes which are saf er. Clearly closing the out-patient pharmacy at the Health Sciences Centre and forcing child ren with cancer and their parents to engage in shuffle care to get prescriptions filled at Misericordia is opposite to the need to move towards a seamless single-window approach to health care, which is more efficient and safer.

I ask the Minister of Health to report to the Legisla ture today the details of the medication incidents in relationship to child ren with cancer which have occurred since the clo sure of the out patient pharmacy at the Health Sciences Centre.

1618 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10 , 200 1 Ron. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, as I understand it, the HSC pharmacists and technicians who shifted from HSC to Misericordia to provide the service were involved in two .. One was an alleg ed incident of an inappropriate dosage, which, I am advised, when reviewed was not a difficulty or a problem.

There was a second incident over the weekend where the HSC pharmacist and the HSC technician, if I understand it, who had shifted over to Misericordia to assist in pro viding those same prescriptions, is what I am advised-there was a dosage error, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, that is one of the reasons why I have called in CancerCare and all of the players and asked Brian Post! to review all of the options and come up with a plan. Mr. Gerrard: Mr.

Speaker, I ask, in view of the serious incident and the minister's acknowledge ment that he actually shifted pharmacists to Misericordia to help with the situation, when will the minister return to the vision which he initially had of seamless in-patient and out patient care and make sure that the pharmacy at the Health Sciences Centre is available? When will the minister end the Chomiak shuffle service? Mr. Speaker: Order. May take this opportunity to remind all honourable members, when referring to members, it is by their constituency or ministers by their portfolios and not by their names.

I would ask the co-operation of all honourable members. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for River Heights, on a point of order? Mr. Gerrard: Yes, I ask the Speaker to review this, because clea rly we refer to Faurschou Farms or Duff's Ditch or other circumstances. I think "Chomiak shuffle service" is appropriate. Ron. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On the point of order, Mr. Speaker, the member knows fu ll well that former members of the House can be referred to by name; the people are in this House in view of their function that they serve the public in. Mr.

Speaker, the member knows also full well that there is one way to challenge a ruling of the Speaker. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for River Heights, the Manitoba practice has been to recognize members by their constituency or ministers by their titles held and not by name. If members are not pleased with the ruling, there is always the opportunity to challen ge a Speaker's ruling. That opportunity is always open to all members. * * * Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, this is far more complex than I think the member opposite prob ably understands, with respect to this particular issue. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, all too often the Minister of Health is using his personal attacks against members in this House. This member, who is a cancer specialist, does know better. He knows a lot better than this Minister of Health ever will. Ron. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On the same point of order, what I did just hear was a personal attack from the member opposite.

There has been no citation of any rule or Beauchesne's. I know the member was looking for one. He did not find one. This is not a point of order, Mr. Speaker, it was an interruption of an answer to an important question. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Of ficial Opposition House Leader, I will take the matter under advisement to peruse Hansard and consult the procedural authorities, and I will report back to the House. *** Mr. Chomiak: I will rephrase that. This is a far more complex issue than the member, in his

May 10, 2001 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1619 statement, is purporting to address. The member is alleging that somehow this Government made the decision to move that particular pharmacy. The WRHA found itself in a situation where they were short of pharmacists. There were a number of options that were available with respect to how to deal with the situation. A decision was made to consol idate operations and Misericordia put in place a transfer service and tried to accommodate all of the needs in the system.

Clearly there have been difficulties, which we have acknowledged and which I indicated earlier in Question Period have been put to Dr. Brian Post!, the head of the health authority, to meet with the parties and put together different options to look at how the situation can be improved. How more clear can I be? Health Care System Quality Assurance Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Since the approach to health care is broader than just a pharmacy that we are dealing with and books like To Err is Human emphasize that there could even be a $1 00-million saving in health care if we got things done safer, when will the minister carry forward the recommendations of Judge Murray Sinclair to improve quality assurance throughout the whole health care system and make sure that these sorts of problems do not arise? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): In fact, that question raised by the member goes even further than Judge Murray Sinclair's recommendations.

If one were to look at the recommendations made by Ken Fyke in Saskatchewan as well as the recommendations that were made by the Quebec commission, there seems to be a convergence of views that quality approach and quality management of error and potential errors in the health care system needs to be addressed across the system.

That is one of the reasons that when the Sinclair commission reported, we put in place the Thomas commission to review Sinclair and advise the Manitoba government how quickly, what recommendations we can move on immediately, what we can do in the short term and what we can do in the long term to ensure that the recommendations of the Sinclair com mission are put in place and not overlooked. Census Confidentiality Ms. Nancy Allan (St. Vital): My question is to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines. Recently Manitobans received in their mailboxes a census form to be mailed back to the federal government.

I am wondering if the Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines could inform this House exactly what the importance is of filling out those censuses and mailing them back in. Could the minister particularly address the issue of confidentiality that has been raised with me by one of my constituents? Hon. MaryAnn Mihychuk (Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines): There has been some concern by Manitobans about confiden tiality of the information that is being col lected through this census.

The information is used purely for statistical reasons; it is not transferred to Revenue Canada or anybody else that does not absolutely need the information, and that is only the Statistics Bureau. Part of the reason why it is so important for Manitobans to fill out the census form is that we cannot afford to lose one more penny to eastern and central Canada, and for every Manitoban missed, we will ultima tely lose $32,000 to our Treasury. So, Mr. Speaker, I urge all members to use their influence, all Manitobans to co-operate and fill out the census. * (14:20) Health Care System Hallway Medicine Mr.

Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr. Speaker, a constituent of mine recently wrote to me about his deep concern with the present state of health care in Manitoba. He noted that his wife has been in the emergency room of two Winnipeg hospitals and was in hallway No. 3 once and in hallway number 9 on her other visit. My constituent has no compl aints about the health care professional with whom he and his wife were in contact. He does, however, have a

16 20 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2001 complaint about the way the health care system is being managed. Mr. Speaker, why, if the minister kept his promise to end hall way medicine, was my constituent's wife in hospital hallways on two occasions this spring? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, as I indicated on November 22, 1999, when we launched our hall way medicine initiative, we put in place the most aggressive series of programs that have been put in place in Manitoba history to deal with the hall way situation.

After six months, we looked at the charts and the statistics, CIHI looked at the charts and the statistics, and across Canada we have done a better job of dealing with the hallway situation than every single jurisdiction in the country. At the time, we also indicated there were some problems in two particular institutions [interjectionj I will complete my answer if members will let me next time, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Pitura: I ask: Why, when the health budget was increased by 22 percent since 1999, are Manitoba patients still being treated in hallways? Mr.

Chomiak: Yes, the long and the short of it is when members opposite were government, they closed 1400 acute care beds. Highway Condi tions R.M. of Argyle Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): As the example today indicates that hallway medicine continues to exist in Manitoba and now, due to restricted access to some certain rural hospital facil ities, a new culture is developing in Manitoba called highway medicine. But, Mr. Speaker, even this culture is in jeopardy. I want to refer the minister of highways to a letter that he received from the reeve of the R.M. of Argyle. My question to the minister- Mr.

Speaker: Order. Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On a point of order, I note Beauchesne's Citation 409(2): The question must be brief. A

preamble need not exceed one carefully drawn sentence. A long

preamble on a long question takes an unfair share of time and provokes the same sort of reply, a rule, Mr. Speaker, that is recited later on in 410. Mr. Speaker, would you please remind the member of that essential rule in Question Period and ask him, if he does have a question, would he please ask it. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, he does have a point of order. I would like to remind all honourable members that, according to Beauchesne's Citation 409(2), a

preamble should not exceed one carefully drawn sentence. * * * Mr. Speaker: I would ask the honourable mem ber to please put his question. Mr. Tweed: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Then my question to the minister of highways is: What does he say to Jack Bolack, the reeve of the R.M. of Argyle, and the residents of that area, when the letter states that fire trucks, in particular, would certainly not be able to pass certain areas of Highway 23 and Highway 5, and school buses have to travel on the edge of these roads, pick up and drop off children and travel on the edge of the ditch at times? Hon.

Steve Ashton (Minister of Transpor tation and Government Services): Mr. Speaker, I reported to this House some of the serious spring conditions that are out there. Our department is out there working very hard in very difficult circumstances, including on this highway, which is a significant concern to us. By the way, the last capital work that was done on this highway was more than I 0 years ago, so this is not something that happened overnight. *** Mr. Ashton: While I am on my feet, I took as notice a question from the member, and also the Member for Carman (Mr. Rocan) yesterday, and

May 10, 2001 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1621 I have a written response. I also want to apologize a little bit to the House, because I indicated a response had gone to the Conser vative caucus outlining First Nations casinos that were not in compliance. In actual fact the document that was attached was a confidential document going back to 1999 that members opposite did not release. Unlike the previous government, Mr.

Speaker, I have provided the information in this letter of the First Nations casinos that are not in compliance, once again showing that we are an open government, something the previous government was not in this regard. * * * Mr. Tweed: Mr. Speaker, my question for the minister of highways is: What does he say to Jack Bolack and the people of that area when the letter states that there have been occasions recently where the highways department motor graders have been stuck in mud up to the middle in a two-lane highway? Mr. Ashton: Mr.

Speaker, I will say the same thing that I have said to many motorists in Manitoba. In fact, my wife drove from Thompson yesterday. There are similar situa tions right now in the Interlake. This was discussed today in Estimates. The department of highways recognizes that this spring is one of the worst springs we have faced because of excess moisture conditions, and we are working very hard to try and do whatever we can to do those repairs. In fact, once we end up with better weather and once we end up with drier subgrades, we will do our utmost to do the repairs on those highways as soon as possible. Mr.

Tweed: Will the minister assure and take responsibil ity to Jack Bola ck, the reeve of the R.M. of Argyle, if something serious or an accident should occur that would limit anyone's access to that? This is a very serious safety concern? People's lives are at risk. Mr. Ashton: As I said before, I always accept responsibility, as this Government does, for our actions today. I say to the member opposite that this road did not receive any attention from the previous government. So, before the member gets up and lectures us, Mr. Speaker, the last major capital project on this highway was 10 years ago- * (14 :30) Mr.

Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for Turtle Mountain, on a point of order. Point of Order Mr. Tweed: Mr. Speaker, I just would ask the minister to check his records. He will find out, three years ago there was road widening done on 23 Highway to prepare it for the new surf acing that was coming from No. 23 from Mariapolis west. So do not let the minister put unrespon sible comments on the record. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Transportation, on the same point of order. Mr. Ashton: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I am not sure if it is a point of order, but I went and I checked the capital budgets.

When I said the last major work was done on this highway, it was 10 years ago. This did not happen- Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for Turtle Mountain, he does not have a point of order. I would like to remind all honourable members, when rising on a point of order, quote the rule and the breaching of the rule and/or unparliamentary language . *** Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker's Ruling Mr. Speaker: Order. I have several rulings for the House. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

May I remind all honourable members, when the Speaker stands the members should be seated and the Speaker should be heard in silence. After the daily prayer on April 19, 2001, and following a point of order raised by the Minister of Family Services and Housing (Mr. Sale), the honourable Member for River East (Mrs.

1622 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10 , 2001 Mitchelson) rose on a matter of privilege and moved "THAT the Minister of Family Services did break the privileges of all Opposition members by accusing those MLAs of condoning and participating in one of society's most heinous crimes, that being the physical assault ing of women and that this House finds the Minister of Family Services in contempt of this House for casting aspersions against members of the Opposition; and furthermore that this minister be directed to withdraw his comments and apologize; and that this matter be referred to the Committee on Privileges and Elections for the committee's consideration." The honourable member asserted that remarks spoken by the honourable Minister of Family Services and Housing, "we do not think you have to take a stick and beat them like the Opposition does," were an aff ront to all members.

Contributions to the matter raised were also made by the honourable Government House Leader (Mr. Mackintosh), the honourable Of ficial Opposition House Leader (Mr. Laurendeau), and the honourable Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns). I took the matter under advisement in order to consult the procedural authorities. When a matter of privilege is raised in the House there are two aspects that the Speaker must decide. The first is whether the matter was raised at the earliest available opportunity, and second, whether a prima facie case of privilege has been established.

On the first issue, I accept the word of the honourable Member for River East that she did not find out about the remarks in question until after the fact. However, I would encourage members to try and raise issues in a timely manner, if at all possible. Failure to do so can have an impact on the determination of the orderliness of the issue raised. * (14:40) On the second point, I must rule that the matter raised does not qualif y as a prima facie case of privilege.

Joseph Maingot, on pages 254 and 255 of the second edition of Parliamentary Privilege in Canada states "la nguage spoken during a parliam entary proceeding that impugns the integrity of members would be unparl iamentary and a breach of order contrary to the Standing Orders but not a breach of privilege ." This statement is supported by two rulings from former Speaker Rocan. On June 28, 19 94, he ruled that the words "she needs a slap" were not a prima facie case of privilege as the complaint should have been raised as a point of order and not a matter of privilege.

Similarly, on March 20, 1995, he ruled that a matter of privilege raised about one member accusing another member of promoting racism was not a prima facie case of privilege as the matter should have been raised as a point of order and not a matter of privilege. I am not unmindful of the fact that this issue has been taken very seriously by members in this House, and on that basis, members may have a grievance or a complaint or a point of order, but it is not a prima facie case of privilege. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): I regrettably must challenge your ruling, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker: The ruling of the Chair has been challenged. Voice Vote Mr. Speaker: All those in support of sustaining the ruling, please say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mr. Speaker: All those opposed, please say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay. Mr. Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have it. Formal Vote Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Yeas and Nays, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: A recorded vote has been called for. Please call in the members. * (15: 40)

May 10, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1623 Mr. Speaker: Order. The one hour has expired, and I am directing the division bells be turned off, please. The question before the House is: Shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained? Division A RECORDED VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas Aglugub, Al lan, Ashton, Asper, Barrett, Caldwell, Cerilli, Chomiak, Dewar, Doer, Friesen, Jennissen, Korzeniowski, Lemieux, Mackintosh, Maloway, Martindale, McGifford, Mihychuk, Nevakshonoff, Reid, Rondeau, Sale, Santos, Schel lenberg, Selin ger, Smith (Brandon West), Struthers, Wowchuk.

Nays Cummings, Dacquay, Derkach, Driedger, Helw er, Laurendeau, Loewen, Maguire, Mitchelson, Murray, Penner (Emerson), Penner (Steinbach), Pitura, Rocan, Schuler, Smith (Fort Garry), Tweed. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): Yeas 29, Nays 17. Mr. Speaker: The ruling of the Chair has been sustained. Speaker's Rulings Mr. Speaker: I have another ruling for the House. During Oral Questions on April 30, 2001, the honourable Official Opposition House Leader (Mr. Laurendeau) rose on a point of order concerning comments spoken by the honourable Minister of Health (Mr.

Chomiak) while responding to a question asked by the Leader of the Of ficial Opposition (Mr. Murray). The honourable Of ficial Opposition House Leader (Mr. Laurendeau) contended that the honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) was provoking debate and was making allegations against members. The Deputy Speaker took the matter under advisement. I have reviewed the comments in question of the honourable Mini ster of Health. Al though his comments consisted of some strong language , the remarks do not contain any personal charges or imputation of motives.

I would therefore find that there is no point of order. would, however, ask all honourable members to be mindful of the fact that, even though members have strong differences of opinion, we should keep our remarks and comments tempered and worthy and treat each other with respect as honourable members. I have one more ruling. During Members' Statements on April 30, 2001, a point of order was raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader (Mr. Laurendeau) concerning a member's statement being given by the honourable Minister of Advanced Education (Ms. McGifford).

The Official Opposition House Leader indicated that from her comments, the minister was representing another minister and that the comments should have been raised as a ministerial statement and not as a member's statement. The Minister of Transportation and Government Services (Mr. Ashton), the Member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson) and the honourable Government House Leader (Mr. Mackintosh) also spoke to the point of order. The Deputy Speaker took the matter under advisement.

I have had the opportunity to review the remarks that were made by the honourable Minister of Advanced Education while speaking to the member's statement. In her remarks she does indicate that she had represented the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism (Mr. Lemieux) at the 13th Annual Manitoba Writing and Publishing Awards, and she also indicates that on behalf of the minister, that she wished to thank a number of people. Rule 23 .(2) states that: "A Minister of the Crown may not use the time allo tted for Members' Statements to comment on govern ment policy or ministerial or departmental action."

16 24 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10 , 2001 I would note that the honourable Minister of Advanced Education is lis ted on Order-in Council No. 13 -2001 as the first Acting Minister for the Department of Culture, Heritage and Tourism.

I would further note that looking back at the past Manitoba practice for the last four years regarding Members' Statements, it has been infrequent for ministers to rise on Members' Statements, but when they have risen, the comments have been made in connection to a matter dealing with the minister's constituency and not with a government department or government policy or actions. In the first session of the 37th Legislature, no minister has rose under the category of Members' Statements.

In the fifth session of the 36th Legislature, three members' statements were delivered by mm1sters, and these statements were on the Kinsmen Reh-Fit Centre, the Poppy Trust Fund and the Whyte Ridge community club.. In the fourth session of the 36th Legislature, two members' sta tements were del ivered by ministers, and they were on the topics of the Mil lennium project and St. John's Ravenscourt School. I would therefore rule that there is point of order.

I would suggest to honourable ministers that if they are rising to speak on Members' Statements, the comments should be pertaining to the minister's constituency and should not be used to comment on government policy or ministerial or departmental action. *( 15 :50) MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Housing Renovation Programs Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, for approximately five years I sat on the opposite side of the House as the member of the opposition responsible for Housing.

During that time, I asked the former government numerous questions about their lack of interest or concern for the decline of older neighbourhoods and housing, about the decline of property values and the quality and standard of housing, and I urged them to develop and expand housing renovation programs. Mr. Speaker, I am proud that the new Government has done this in two budgets. We have invested $3 million per year in the Neighbourhood Alive! initiative, which I hear is being recognized across the country as a model for reversing the decline of older neighbourhoods using a community develop ment model.

The Winnipeg Housing Initiative components ofNeig hbourhood Alive! which is a tri-level government program based in an office on Portage A venue has received $2 milli on of this $3 million annually, and it will amount to $8 million in total over the four years. Mr. Speaker, when I was in opposition I also urged the former government to fulfil its commitments to the Residential Rehabilitation Assistance Program or RRAP program by matching the federal government's contributions. For the second year, our Budget in Manitoba has done this.

We have doubled the provincial contribution to RRAP as well as taken over the administration of the program in co-operation with municipalities. The program now has $7.1 million annually invested in our province. We continue to operate the Emergency Home Repair Program, and new initiatives through Hydro from last year offered grants and loans to assist Manitobans with energy efficiency and upgrading for their homes. Also this Budget has for Housing a $1.2 million increase in the budget division for Manitoba Housing Authority. Mr. Speaker, there are more exciting things to come.

As we have heard today, the minister has announced a housing strategy for the North. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable member's time has expired. Point of Order Ms. Cerilli: I was keeping an eye on my light. It did not flash. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Of ficial Opposition House Leader, on the same point of order? Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On the same point of order, Mr.

May 10 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 16 25 Speaker, I noticed that you were busy at the time so you may not have had an opportunity-that was a call to say that you were right in your two minutes. Mr. Speaker: Order. I have to apologize to the honourable member. I was engaged. I was busy being engaged, I was in discussion with the Clerk about procedures that are coming forward, and I did not have the opportunity to press your light for the ten-second warning. I apologize for that, but two minutes has expired. Health Care System Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr.

Speaker, I rise in the House today to address a very important issue that affects countless Mani tobans and which places an excessive burden on an already vulnerable portion of our society. I recently received correspondence from constit uents of mine who express their dismay at existing injustices in health care coverage. Currently, people with disabilities living independently must pay significant costs for the purchase of crucial equipment necessary to their health and well-being.

These constituents have to shoulder these enormous expenses and feel the Government could help lessen the financial burden which strains their family budgets. Mr. Speaker, this Government has made repeated promises to improve health care in this province. Since taking office in 19 99 health care spending has skyrocketed by 22 percent. It is truly worrisome that this Government continues to spend our tax dolla rs at such a phenomenal rate when the people of Manitoba have not seen any results.

Unfortunately, this Government fails to realize that improvements to health care are made through sound management and sound public policy. Instead, they continue to increase funding with no plan or vision as to how to make the necessary improvements. As a result of this astonishing mismanage ment of the taxpayers' money, Manitobans have become the highest taxed province in the country with absolutely nothing to show for it. Programs and services have not been improved, leaving many Manitobans out in the cold. If this Government better managed its resources, Mr.

Speaker, perhaps it would be in a better position to imple ment programs which genuinely reflect the needs of Manitobans. Special Olympics-Curling Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St. James): On March 24, I had the pl easure of attending and speaking at the opening ceremonies of the first Manitoba Special Olympics 200 1 Western Canadian Curling Championship at the Deer Lodge Curling Club. It was a very touching experience to hear the pipers pla ying and to see the police procession, all the enthusiastic parents, friends and, of course, athletes at the opening ceremonies.

Denis Sutton, presid ent of the MSO board of directors and Barry Greenberg, president of the Manitoba Curling Association, then got things underway by giving a spirited address to the crowd. This was followed by the ceremonial first rock thrown by champion Karen Young, skip at the Manitoba Tournament of Hearts Championship and swept by the good-humoured Barry Greenberg. I was honoured to have this inaugural event in my constituency. All those involved showed that the volu nteer spirit and teamwork is alive and well in Manitoba. I would like to thank the Deer Lodge Curling Club for hosting the event.

I would also like to commend the organizers, volu nteers and sponsors for all of their hard work in making this event a reality. The community spirit is admirable, and no doubt the event will be remembered for a long time to come. Curling has long held an important place in our province's rich sports history. The wonderful response to the event assures me that the sport will continue to thrive in this province and will for years to come. Sporting events like this one nurture the competitive spirit and provide the opportunity for teams to show their incredible curling talents.

I am confident that the championship was a comple te success and that our city has shown all participants, visitors and locals alike why Winnipeg has earned such a stella r reputation as a city with extraordinary capability to stage varied memorable events.

1626 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA May 10, 2001 I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate all the participants for their personal effort and excellent sportsmanship regardless of the outcome. I am proud to support and I will continue to support worthwhile initiatives li ke the Special Olympics, Western Curling Championships in my constituency in St. James. Call Cen tre Industry Mr. Jim Penner (Steinbach): In Opposition, members of the Doer government criticized call centres as of fering little more than low-paying, low-skill jobs to Manitobans.

Since forming Government, these same members have changed their tune and now sing the praises of call centres and their contribution to Manitoba's economy. In 1997, the member for Fort Rouge said call centre jobs were "not career jobs for a lif etime because no one could live and raise a family and buy a house on the wages these jobs offered." In 1999, when the Doer government announced the opening of a new call centre in Selkirk, their own news release praised the move, stating that the initiative opens up new career opportunities. Which is it, Mr. Speaker? Are these good jobs or bad for Manitoba?

We have heard the Member for Minto (Ms. Mihychuk) boast about the recent opening of a new call centre in Manitoba. Yesterday we saw the opening of the new Convergys call centre. The member for Minto has indicated that call centres are part of her government strategy for economic development in rural Manitoba. First they are opposed to call centres. Now call centres form a part of this government's economic development strategy. What does the government stand for, Mr. Speaker?

While we have always been supportive of the call centre industry which has successf ully utilized Manitoba's central time zone, multilin gual workforce and other factors that have helped to provide numerous job oppor tunities to Manitobans, the Doer government has flip-fl opped on their position, first criticizing and now supporting the industry. This is just one more example of the Government's lack of vision and long-term economic strategy for Manitoba. * (16:00) Organ Transplants Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): I would like to make a member's statement on a non-political issue and point out that the Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger) made a statement on organ and tissue donor awareness week a year ago in April. I know several people who have been recipients of organ tra nsplants, and they are extremely grateful for the fact that they have been given a new lif e in the case of a heart transpla nt recipient that I know.

So this is a very important issue to people who are on waiting lis ts, and regrettably waiting lists are growing longer, but there is something that my coll eagues in the Legislature and all of us can do about that, and that is to sign the donor card in our wallets. That is not really enough because, unfortunately, when people go to the hospital, their wallet and clothes get separated from themselves, and people do not look in their wallet and do not see their card. The next problem is that there must be trained staff who talk to the family members and ask them for the donation.

It is a very deli cate and difficult process, and unfortunately it does not always happen. What is happening in Manitoba and in Canada is that our level of organ donations is actual ly going down sl ightly. It is not nearly as great as it should be, and I am pleased to say that the federal and provincial governments in Canada are doing something about this. They have struck a national council on organ and tissue donation and transpla ntation, and the goal is to set up an organ transpl antation registry.

The registry is believed to be an improvement on the current donor card, the driver's lic ence system, and it is thought that it will get more people registering the fact that they want to donate and thereby increase the number of donations, but finally we all need to talk to our family members and let them know that this is our desire so that, if we are involved in a fatality, our organs will be donated.

May 10, 2001 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1627 Mr. Chai rperson : The honourable Member for River East, on a grievance. MATTERS OF GRIEVANCE Minister of Fam ily Services Comments Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate that I do have to stand today in my pla ce and grieve on an issue that I think is a very serious issue. As we sit in this Legisla ture as elected members, we recognize and realize that there is a Government and an Opposition.

That Govern ment does in most instances have a majority and have the ability to vote and to support certain issues and certain rulings that are presented in this House and Opposition does have the opportunity to vote against. Through the democratic process, usual ly the government of the day does win and the issue is set aside. Mr. Speaker, for me, the issue has not been set aside, and has not certainly in my mind been dealt with in the most appropriate fashion. There are two specific issues that I think really need to be dealt with.

It is the issue of the personal affront that I felt in answers to very legitimate questions that I asked in this House, answers presented by the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Sale), but the bigger issue is the issue of how those comments that were made by the Minister of Family Services have painted our caucus and our party and our policies as policies that might beat women. That is an affront to all of us that sit in the Progressive Conservative caucus. It is something that we will not tole rate and comments that we will not leave on the record. Mr.

Speaker, I was a little affronted today to think that my word was not unequivocally accepted as by the intent that the ruling provided. I used the very first opportunity that I had after reviewing Hansard to bring my issue to this Chamber. I recognize and realize that there are certain rules and criteria around matters of privilege, and that the Speaker has the opportunity to rule on those, but I was somewhat affronted that my word was brought into question by the ruling. It is more in sorrow than in anger that I am having to raise this in my grievance.

I am an honourable member of this Legislature, and I believe that my word is my word. Certainly, my intentions were to ensure that the issue was brought to the House and was dealt with in an appropriate fashion. An appropriate fashion in my mind would have been to have the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Sale) stand in his place and unequivocally withdraw the comments that he made that said the Tories beat women with sticks. He could have unequivo cally, without any type of explanation, withdrawn those words, and the matter would have been dealt with.

We would have applauded the Minister of Family Services for doing that. Instead of doing that, he chose to stand in his place and try to defend those words by saying it was a difference in policy and that the policy of the New Democratic government was to treat women with respect, but the policy of the Progressive Conservative Party was to beat women with sticks. He tried to explain and justify those comments in this House, and that is absolutely unacceptable. Mr.

Speaker, I only have to go back to the comments that I made when I raised the matter of privilege to talk about some of the programs that were put in place under our administration, a Progressive Conservative administration, and under my watch as the Minister of Family Services. I know that many of those programs are still ongoing today. I heard the Premier (Mr. Doer) in his Estimates sit here in this House and indicate that many of the early intervention programs that our administration put into place are programs that are being built upon by his administration. Mr.

Speaker, I would not think that those programs could be interpreted by the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Sale) or anyone in the Government benches as policies and programs that beat women. I am very affronted by that type of comment by the Minister of Family Services. Mr. Speaker, I also know that in the Minister of Family Services' Estimates, he goes to great lengths to try to talk about building upon the

16 28 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10 , 200 1 programs that we put in place when we were government. To me that is not policies or programs that beat women with sticks. I am absolutely appalled and affronted that those words were not asked to be withdrawn unequivocally.

I think there is precedent in many rulings that have been provided to this House that says, and I might even quote from another ruling that was given today that said, and I quote: Even though members have strong differences of opinion, we should keep our remarks and comments temperate and worthy and treat each other with respect as honourable members. * (16:10 ) Mr. Speaker, those words were absent in the ruling that we voted against today.

I mean there was absolutely nothing within that ruling that indicated the words that were associated with our party, our Conservative Party, that said our policies were equal to beating women with sticks were an affront or were disrespectful. Those comments were disrespectful, and we have a Minister of Family Services here who showed the utmost di srespect for our party and for members that sit on this side of the Legislature . Mr.

Speaker, I have to indicate that a simple solution for the Minister of Family Services would be to stand up, would be to apologize unequivocally without any explanation for the words that he articulated in this House on April 18 . I know the issue of a matter of privilege is one that has to be dealt with in a very serious way, in a very serious matter.

If, in fact, and I can respect the ruling based on precedent that was set or has been set in the past in other rulings, but I do know very often, when other rulings have been presented to this House, even though those rulings may have indicated that there was not a matter of privilege presented, members that affronted other members were asked unequivocally to withdraw the comments that they made. So, Mr.

Speaker, whether it be through a point of order or some other manner, when a member stands up in this House when they have of fended in the way the Minister of Family Services offended not only me as an honourable member of the Legislature but every member that sits on this side of the House, and every woman that lives in this province of Manitoba, when there were programs put in place, there were services for abused women that were expanded under our administration.

I would venture to guess that the Minister of Family Services today is going to continue to build on some of those things and continue to try to improve the circumstances and the situation for women in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, I know that we took those issues very seriously, and I worked extremely hard to try to put in place the right programs and the right policies.

As a matter of fact, an Aboriginal woman, who called me not too long ago from the area around The Pas, who I worked very closely with when I was the Minister of Family Services, called and indicated that she was working with the new Minister of Family Services and continuing to work with the department. She was excited about maybe some new initiative that was going to take place. She said to me that the women in the North have not forgotten the times that we spent together, the times that we worked together and the initiatives that we undertook as a government.

She said: Because I feel so very comfortable with you, I wish that you were still there. I encouraged her very strongly to work with, and she was working with, the Government, but I encouraged her because I felt it was really important that some of the work that had begun continue and that programs continue to be initiated and that women should be protected where at all possible. I encouraged her to continue to work.

She indicated to me that if there was an announcement to be made, she was going to call and invite me personal ly to come up, that many of the women in the community often asked whether she has had contact with me when she comes in to the city of Winnipeg. Mr. Speaker, I sat in northern communities, with Aboriginal women and cried with them when they talked about the abuse that they were experiencing in their communities. I worked with them, and I committed to them that we would try to put in place policies and programs that would make their lives better. They will not forget that, and it is unfortunate that this

May 10 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 16 29 Minister of Family Services could stoop to the level that he did on April 18 and paint us on this side of the House, members of the Progressive Conservative Party, members of the Progressive Conservative caucus, as people that take some del ight in beating women with sticks. Mr. Speaker, I have never been as affronted or of fended by any member of this Legis lature as I have been by this Minister of Family Services. I would hope that he would think very seriously about the impact that he has had on all of us here on this side of the House.

His words were unconscionable, his intent was unconscion able, and I wonder how he can stand up and talk about being kind and being forgiving. You know, not only is he a minister of the Crown, he is a minister of the cloth.

I would think that we would have more respect for individuals in this Chamber and members of our party than to use that kind of language and have that kind of an attitude and not stand up, admit that he was wrong, that he made a mistake, and unequivocally, without any type of explanation or any type of excuse for the words that he used, ensure that those words are withdrawn forever from this record. Mr. Speaker, I feel that it was very important today to stand up to indicate that I feel that a disservice has been done by a ruling that does not even warn the Minister of Family Services (Mr.

Sale) or make him think twice about his attitude and his words that have been offensive and have left a bla ck mark on the Progressive Conservative Party in the province of Manitoba and all women in this province that we supported and worked on their behalf when we were in Government. I would hope, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Sale) would have some second thoughts about his attitude and the arrogance that he used in his attempted apology for the comments that have severely off ended us on this side of the House. * * * Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, I too would very much like to support my collea gue from River East. I think she spoke extremely eloq uently. I think she addressed the issue very plainly. I will tell you that from my perspective find this very trou bling that we would have a minister of the Crown, albeit we will admit that that minister of the Crown shares different views than our party, the Progressive Conservative Party of Manitoba, and we now find ourselves in Opposition.

But I think that I am very troubled that the Minister of Family Services, who, in a way of expressing a disagreement on policy, would make reference as he did to the fact that Tories beat women with sticks. Mr. Speaker, I am a new member of this Legisla ture, but I will tell you one thing that I am not new at. That is being the father of two young women that I have raised with my wife in Manitoba.

I can tell you that on a day-by-day basis I sit down with my daughters and we talk about the ability to have self -esteem, the importance of self -esteem, so that as you go through lif e you are treated as an equal, and not only that but that you treat others as an equal. There is no one level here and another level here in lif e. We all walk this earth as human beings, regardless of whether you are a man or a woman.

That is equality, something that I talk to our children about on a day-by-day basis. * (16: 20) So when I hear words coming from the other side of the House from a minister, from a minister of the Crown, somebody who is supposed to represent not special interest groups, Mr. Minister, but all Manitobans, making a comment, a comment that perhaps was made in a moment of emotional, back-and-forth banter one understands this Legislature from time to time, that kind of banter does go on and it does exist. Nobody is perfect, Mr. Speaker. We are not asking for perf ection.

We are asking for an unequivocal apology to something that I belie ve, not only as a member of the Legislature but as a father, a father of two young women, I find offensive and I find flies in the face of what I believe people expect out of their members and out of the Government. They want good government for all of Manitobans. I do not think that that minister's comments in any way reflect

16 30 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10 , 200 1 what I believe Manitobans expect out of their Government. Prior to becoming a member of the Legislature, I spent I 0 years in a company where the majority of the management of that company were women. [interjection] Well, maybe they want to make fun of that, Mr. Speaker, I do not know. That seems to be the flavour of the day over there. I can tell you from my perspective, Mr.

Speaker, the women that worked in the company that I was involved with had the highest integrity, they provided incredible service, they were excellent leaders and they were model, model management people for all of our company. I was del ighted every time I had a chance to work alongside one of these women, because I learned something from them every day. I learned the value and the perspective that they brought. It was something that meant a lot to me.

To have any recollection or any suggestion that whether I am a member of this party or because perhaps my association with this party, not as an elected member but just as a member of the PC Party of Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, that I would in any way condone or be involved with any act of violence towards women is something that drains my energy.

I cannot believe that somebody would say, well, those people over there, this group over here-as if somehow they have the monopoly on the rights of all people that somehow we have got so much to lea rn from somebody on the other side, clea rly-you talk about two classes, maybe they think there are two classes. We certainly do not. I certainly do not. So I am somewhat troubled when I find and I look around and I see honourable members. I sat with the honourable member when we sang Christmas carols.

And there we were, and in a moment, I believe, somewhat of humour I said to the honourable member: You know, I think you are singing a little bit louder than I am. And I think, in a manner of joking, he turned as if to poke me in the eye. They took a picture of it, he sent it to me, and he wrote a little note on the back. Maybe I am to interpret it differently, Mr. Speaker. I am always prepared to give anybody the benefit of the doubt because I think that is what lif e is about. I come back to being a father. That is what I tell my child ren.

If something has happened to them, always look for the benefit of the doubt, look for the best in people because in the long run that is the way that you are going to be successful in lif e. So we are faced with a situation where the honourable member makes a comment as he did about this side of the House beating women with sticks. Surely there is nothing wrong. As a matter of fact, I think there is something very courageous in standing up and saying: I unequivocally apologize; yes, I disagree with you; I will disagree with you every day of the week. That is what this Legislature should be about.

Obviously, we should have debate, discussion going back and forth, because again I think it provides for good government but not when it gets to the level of an accusation that is such an attack not only on the Member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson) but for each of the members that sit on this side of the Legislature. Frankly, it goes back to people like Premier Filmon and Premier Duff Roblin. They are members of the P.C. party of Manitoba. Is the member accusing them of the same thing?

Surely in times of heated debate things get said, and Lord knows, as I sit in this Chamber, I more than likely will at some point do the same thing. But if in that case I can tell you that, as I tell my children, as my parents told me, never, ever, if you say something that affronts somebody and attacks somebody, never be afraid to stand up and say: I apologize. In this case, Mr. Speaker, because of the Chamber, because of the requirement, I believe it is important to say: I unequivocally apologize.

The debate can take place and must take place, but those kinds of hurtful statements I believe strike to the heart of a human being, and I believe that there is no place in this Chamber for those kinds of comments. I go back to something that our collea gue from River East said, and I think she has spent time in the Chamber and she understands these things extremely well. I am surprised that, on the particular ruling that you gave, Mr. Speaker, you completely ignored this comment: that even

May 10, 2001 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1631 though members have strong differences of opinion we should keep our remarks and comments temperate and worthy and treat each other with respect as honourable members. I am very disappointed that we have had to come forward with this grievance. I understand the process, but I would appeal to the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Sale). I would appeal to him to come forward and do what is right. Let me just be very cle ar. This has gone beyond politics. It has nothing to do with politics. It has something to do with integrity and human dignity.

On that basis, I would hope that the honourable Minister of Family Services would understand why we are going through the process. I would ask the Minister of Family Services to know that we would applaud him and acknowledge his courage if he would unequivocally apologize for the comments that he made that we take such an affront on. I just want to once more, Mr. Speaker, say that I do not think Manitobans could have had a better member of Family Services than the member from River East. I know the member of River East quite well.

I know her level of integrity and her desire to help all people, and that includes women as well as men, all people of Manitoba. That was her goal, and I think she did it admirably. I think, to have any tarnish on the kind of incredible direction that she brought, not only to this Chamber but to all of the people of Manitoba, I think is a shame. I think it is an absolute shame, and I am very disappointed that we have had to go through this process. I will, once again, appeal to the Minister of Family Services to do the right thing and unequivocally apologize. Thank you. Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Minister of Family Services. Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Mr. Speaker, as I did- Mr. Speaker: On a grievance? We are in Grievances. Mr. Sale: I need some cla rification. On a matter of cla rification that the House is addressing, I would like to make a statement. It is not a grievance, because I do not have a grievance. Mr. Speaker: Order. We are on Grievances. If the honourable member is rising on a point of order, I will hear the point of order, but we are on Grievances. Mr.

Sale: Well, then I will rise on a point of order, I guess. * (16:30) Point of Order Mr. Sale: Mr. Speaker, before the honourable members opposite raised the matter of privilege, I rose in this House and unequivocally withdrew the words which are under question. I deeply regret my choice of words. I regretted it then. I regret it now. I regret the fact that the words are offensive to them. I would extend my regret very sincerely and again, as I have already done, withdraw those words unequivocally, which is the rule and practice of this House when words are offensive. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Minister of Family Services, it is not a point of order, but I would thank him for the clarification. ORDERS OF THE DAY Mr. Speaker: Resuming consideration of Com mittee of Supply, Mr. Deputy Speaker, please take the chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) FAMILY SERVICES AND HOUSING * (16:40) Mr. Chai rperson (Harry Schellenberg): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply pl ease come to order. This afternoon, we are resuming consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Family Services and Housing.

When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 1. Administration and Finance (

b) Executive

16 32 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10 , 200 1 Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits, on page 73. Shall the item pass? Mr. Glen Cummi ngs (Ste. Rose): I would like to move into Emplo yment and Income Assistance, if that would be appropriate. I have a couple of questions that I am pretty sure will be handled by the staff that the minister has here. First of all, I take it from the Supplem entary Information that there is an anticipated reduction in demand in this area. Can the minister el aborate on how he calcula tes that or what anticipated numbers would lead him to that conclusion? Hon.

Tim Sale (Minister of Family Services and Housing): The caseload reduction numbers are based on two things: one, the historical trend, which I will just give the member some total caseload numbers, and if he wants breakdowns we can provide him with the breakdowns. I think we did do that earlier in the year. In 19 98-99, that is March '99, the average number of cases during that year was 36 850. In the next year that average number dropped throughout the year to 35 277, which wa s a 4.3% reduction.

In the subsequent year to 2000-2 00 1, that is to March 31 of this year, the average during the year was 33 048, for a drop of 6.3 percent during that year. So our estimate is based on an assumption that we will have a further overall caseload decline of 3.1 percent. The reason for 3.1, rather than a higher number, is that while we are proud of our employment record in Manitoba, as the previous government was proud of theirs, we think that getting much below 4.6%, 4.8% unemployment is tough.

So expecting the labour force to absorb a whole lot more people, we think would not be prudent in terms of prudent budgeting. The numbers of people on general assistance, which is where most people are rejoining the workforce from, have dropped from approximately 12 000 to approximately 7000, which is a huge decline, during the last approximately 20 months or 22 months. The exact time of that starting point, I am not absolutely sure. I think it was around June or July. It was just over $1 2,000, and it is just over or just under $7,000 today.

So the member can see that is a very substantial reduction of around 40 percent. While we would like to see it go down lower, we know and the member knows that many of the people who are general assistance recipients have very significant barriers to employment. Whether those barriers are literacy or skills or addiction, anger management, mental health issues or disabilities that are chronic and very real but may not be sufficiently large to classif y as medically disabled but from a labour point of view, they probably will not be able to hold and keep employment of any significant amount.

So the number is based on a prudent assessment of previous trends, a look at our employ ment rate and a recognition that most of the readily employable people in that group have been moved. Now, the member will probably know that we have a program called Building Independ ence in which we are working with multiply barriered people through a variety of initiatives, and if he wants to examine some of those furth er, I would be glad to get into that. Mr.

Cummings: Yes, we will discuss Building Independence in a moment, but does the department in doing these calcula tions-1 am sure there would also be some reference to job creation. The number of people leaving assist ance does not necessarily reflect the number of people going into the workforce. They could have actual ly left the jurisdiction or quit looking. Do you have available the corresponding numbers that would indicate that they are going significantly into additional jobs created in the economy? I am sure that somewhere statistically in the department they have done that comparison.

If it is not readily available, it may well be available in the Treasury Board, for that matter. It is an interesting number and really reflects, in my mind at least, how well the economy is growing in terms of jobs. Mr. Sale: The member asks probably one of the most complex questions that he could have asked in terms of how this all works. I have asked the question too, and the department has been very hel pf ul in helping me understand that

May 10 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 16 33 within any of our caseloads there is a tremendous amount of churning, and the case load that chums the most, of course, is the general assistance category. There is a portion of general assistance recipients, and I cannot give him percentages, but a significant proportion, somewhere between a third and a half , of general assistance recipients come on to assistance once, go of f and are never seen again. They truly used it as a trampoline to get back into the labour market.

There is another group who use assistance periodically because they are seasonal employ ees, or they have cyclical problems, whether they are health problems, for example, someone with HIV-AIDS can be quite well for a number of months or even years, and then be sick, and then be well again. It is a kind of very up and down sort of thing. So we have a number of people who are repeaters, who come back into our system, go back out again, come back in again. That is not an insignificant number of people.

We have people who come into the general assistance category but they are really disabled, and as soon as they are panelled they move from the general assistance category into the disability category. But, that is not necessarily any more the same as moving into unemploya bility, because we are changing the definition of disability to delink it from employability, because many disabled people with technology and appropriate supports can work part or full time even, but at least part time. So there is a great deal of movement in that general assistance caseload.

I would say that often we open and close 500, 600, 700 cases a month and sometimes more than that. The general trend is down, but the trend hides a tremendous amount of activity. If the member wants to have information about say, a sample month in terms of how many cases are opened, how many are closed, what is the net, I can tell him, for example, that over the past 18 months we have moved around 14 00 people from the general assistance category to disabil ity because, in fact, our medical panel has said, yeah, they are disabled. That is a significant amount of churning, as well, from that perspective.

I will leave it at that. If there are furth er questions, I will try and provide more infor mation. Mr. Cummings: Perhaps then we could get an idea of the success or lack thereof of the Building Independence program. What kind of long-term numbers have we been able to stimula te out of that initiative? A reflection of the success rate to me means that they get at least into a seasonally employable situation. Mr. Sale: The Building Independence strategy encompasses some 14 or 15 elements, some of which are new and some which are continued from the previous administration.

Each one of these elements is subject to evaluation in terms of its effectiveness, so I cannot give the member much in the way of overall numbers. For example, the Connect 2 voice mail service, which gives a voice mail box to people on income assistance who have a need for one-up to 15 00 mail boxes can be assigned-that is being evaluated. It has been in operation now not quite a year, less than a year. We are evaluating the use of that in terms of people who are finding employm ent, finding connections with training, for example.

When you look at the job centre at the EIA office, which is an initiative started under the previous government and expanded here, that we believe is an extremely efficient, very, very valuable resource, because people who come in who do not have significant barriers to employm ent, that is, they do not need health related issues or addiction-related supports. They are basically employable, although they may have low skills. They go directly, before enrolmen t in income assistance, to the job centre.

We find that a very significant proportion of those people are able to be connected with work and never actually go on assistance at all. They may get a pair of work boots, they may get clothing, they may get transportation support, they may get a small issue to tide them over for the first paycheque sort of thing. When you look at the fact that, over the period of time we are discussing, 5000 people have found their way of f the general assistance category and our overall rolls are down, even though our disability rolls are significantly up,

16 34 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10 , 200 1 then I think you have to say that between the good job conditions, the training initiatives such as Taking Charge!, Opport unities for Employ ment, the Career Action Pathing Center, the Connect 2 voice mail, these, in combination, are working. When we get specific evaluations of specific programs, I have no problem with sharing those, and I have a commitment to see that we do evaluate everything we do, because there is no sense in spending money on something that does not work.

I cannot give him much more than that general picture, that dropping 5000 over that period of time means that in concert, in combination, we are having some pretty effective results. * (1 6:50) Mr. Cumm ings: That is pretty much what I was expecting. What I am interested in is the comment that the minister made about somebody who would come in, would be involved in a program. Would it be true then that someone might come into this program only to the extent that they would be put in contact with more appropriate job opportunities, given their skill level?

Does that go all the way to where they might be advised, encouraged or assisted in enrolling in some skill development? Mr. Sale: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, that is I think one of the strengths of what we are doing, is that we have access to a fairly wide range of skill development programs through the LMDA, Labour Market Development Agreement that we have with Canada. We can enrol Employment and Income Assistance recipients in training programs alongside those who are Employment Insurance recipients.

We have the capacity to what is called reach back, so people who have come into Empl oyment and Income Assistance but have sufficient work history to qualify them for EI training, we can reach back into that history and qualify them for training and we do that. The Opportunities for Employment program which the member will probably know is supported by the Mennonite Central Committee and MEDA and a number of leading industries in Winnipeg, this winter had a cel ebration at their new office on Ellice A venue in which they cel ebrated their 2000th job placement.

Now they are rea dily admitting that all 2000 of those people are not at work full time today, but all 2000 have significant workforce attachment now which they did not have, and a great number of them have qualified for the reimbursement of $4,000 for a successful placement which is the contract. It is an interesting contract; it is a kind of pay-for-performance contract. They have, as good businesspeople in their community, they have made money on that contract as they have done a good job of providing training. Industries like Palliser have taken a number of these people.

So I think we have got a graduated ability, everything from up to two years of post secondary community colle ge through to very short, two-, three-week programs that can give people a specific office skill or a specific employability skill. We have that fu ll range now, and my staff tell me that there are a very, very few employ able people now in our system who are not engaged in some form of training or service that is moving them towards as much independence as they can attain.

I think the member knows people well enough in his own community to know that a signif icant number of these people will never be fully independent but they can be partially independent, and that independence brings with it a lot more dignity and frankly a lot more income. So that is the kind of graduated process that we are working on and I think having some success at. Mr.

Cummings: One of the difficult and tricky aspects of assisting people for employ ment opportunity is that, as the minister has just stated, there will be a fair number of people who present themselves or find a way into this area who probably have employm ent impediments. Some of them will be self -inflic ted, addiction of whatever being one them. I know that there was a fair bit of criticism, and frankly the terminology seems to be-[interjection} That is okay, thank you. The concern that I have is, is there any capacity in this process to deal with those folks,

May 10 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 16 35 to be somewhat directive in helping them with the challenges that they have developed. I know the term "workfare." I tell people you can call it workfare or you can call it pre-work assistance to try and develop in people the capacity, and it goes all the way from bad habits to as I said more difficult dependencies that could be hard to deal with. Is there an element of that in this program that can help those folks? Mr. Sale: I am not unfamil iar with self -inflic ted wounds.

I think this is one of those interesting areas where there is a genuine difference in philosophy. Let me answer the member's question directly. Throughout this past year we have had an average of about 200 people on sanctions. That is about the same number as was in the previous government, a little higher than the previous government because there were more people on social assistance. Sanctions are applied kind of as a last resort. We believe that they can be effective, although for the most

part I am not sure they actual ly are, but we use them just like the previous government did to make the point that, no, you cannot simply decide not to seek work. If you are employable, you do not have a young kid, you do not have a disability, you are employable and there is work there to be found. Please go get it. The difference is that we do not think everybody on social assistance is requiring compulsion to get off social assistance. We think 99 percent of them do not want to be there. So, if you take the 32 000 that are there now in terms of cases, 1 percent is 320.

We have 214 sanc tions out at this point. It is about the same number the previous government had. So we are never happy when you have somebody who does not avail themselves of opportunities to try and improve their situation, but again I think the case is clearly made here that the number of sanctions that were applied under the previous government and the number of sanctions that are being applied as of today are not terribly different in number and, proportionally, they are exactly the same. Yes, there is an element of compulsion.

It is used rarely, but I would say to the member that if he thinks back to the people he knows, although I know that Neepawa is a wealthy community and almost has nobody on social assistance, terribly successf ul, Sandy Bay runs their own social assistance programs. We do not run them, thank goodness. * (17 :00) You think about the people you know. Certainly the people I know, and I know lots on social assistance, their main barriers have to do with self -esteem, a sense that they have not a possibility of being success fu l. They are defeated people often, for the most part.

When you are dealing with somebody who believes they are losers, who feels like they are defeated, feels like the system does not value them much, the biggest job we have to do is to try and restore some sense that they can, in fact, get some control back over their lif e and that they can be valued, are valued.

Self -esteem is a huge, huge issue, and so that is why I think we believe that for the most part what we have to do is respect people's ability to make good choices and nurture that ability, because largely the reason that people wind up on social assistance, in fact, sadly, is birth accident as much as anything else. So self -esteem is a critical, critical component of the MEDA program, the taking charge program.

Those programs were started by the previous government, and that is why we think that, yes, you have to have accountabil ity and yes, we have expanded our accountability checks, but you run a system based on respect and trust and deal with the exceptions because they are not the rule. Mr.

Cummings: That is exactly why I said that maybe workfare is a terminol ogy problem as much as it is a philosophical one because what I asked the minister was, is there an elem ent, and I appreciate his answer, but I was not actual ly asking about an eleme nt of sanctions so much as I was asking about an element of counsel where someone who does have an addiction problem or who does have an attitude problem could be asked or directed towards assistance.

16 36 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10 , 200 1 I presume that comes down to just how long they allow themselves to be exposed to the system. If somebody just pokes their head in and leaves again, they may or may not want to avail themselves of any counselling or assistance. It is that aspect of it that I would be interested in, if there is an elem ent of that in this program. Mr. Sale: The answer is, yes, in all kinds of different ways in terms of counsellin g, in terms of access to programs.

The member will probably know that again, to go back to the same example, both taking charge and opportunities for employm ent and even more, the Career Action Pathing Centre in the north end identifies barriers that people have to employment and then identifies the various opportunities in the community to get at those barriers and gives the person support to go through that process, whether it is an addiction issue, a skill development issue, anger management, whatever it is, literacy.

Yes, that is why I think we are succes sful is because we focus on the barriers rather than just focus on booting people back out to work as quickly as we can only to have them come in another door a few days later because an underlying problem is there. To give the member one example of an elderly man who, it turns out, for years nobody knew he was ill iterate. He hid it well and coped, but, of course, he was not terribly employable. In those years past, no one stopped to figure out why. We are trying very hard to do that. Mr. Cummings: I am fairly familiar with actually those types of situations.

Those are sometimes also the same people who are proud enough and probably generally get by because they are independent and proud enough that they do not want to admit that they have an issue that they can use some assistance with. Then let me ask one more question in the aspect of how this program is operationalized, if you will, or delivered by the various people involved. Let us say you have someone who is large ly unemplo yable because they have an addiction problem which leads to all sorts of different manifestations in the workforce, of course.

They might not show up regularly or they might not be in condition to work in the workforce. Other than saying, look, I think you have a problem and can we help you, does the del ivery of the program involve the person at least ag reeing to sit with a counsellor? Mr. Sale: The way in which the member raises the question I think kind of maybe portrays the difference in the way we approach these issues. Mr. Cummings: That is why I asked the question. Mr. Sale: Okay . The scenario that he is using in terms of requirement comes at the end of the process for us.

For the most part, if you take the Career Action Pathing Centre, for example, you are sitting down with someone who has become a support person to someone who has more than one barrier probably. Probably they have two or three. If they are at that program, they have probably got two or three barriers. You sit down with them, you build a bit of trust, you get to know what their lif e story is a little bit about, and then you develop what is called a path for them. It is a visual tool, so it works really well with people who are not terribly lite rate in terms of reading a lot of print.

You put it up on the wall with a coloured marker. I do not know if you have seen those kinds of path plans that are done sometimes for people with developmental delay. It is a planning tool organizations can use, too. It identifies where you want to be at the end of this date; what are the things that are blocking you from getting there; what is the first thing you are going to do; what is the first step you are going to take? Okay, we have decided what the first step is. Maybe it is an addiction issue. Okay, what are the resources in our community that could help you deal with that? Well, there is AA.

There is treatment in-house. There are churches that offer programs. There is a variety of things that you can do. There are self -help books. There is counselling. Okay, what do you want to do? What works in your culture, with your lif estyle? What works for you, in-house treatment at X Kalay or AFM, a 1 0-step program, a 12 -step program? What do you do? Your mentor, your support person in that, does not take on the responsibil ity of trying to deal with your addiction but takes on the

May 10 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 16 37 responsibil ity of trying to keep you on the path that you have helped him or her and yourself to draw and sets some time lines on that-w hen are you going to do this-and then meets with the person on a regular basis-how is it going, because the member will know this very well, that for many people there are a lot of bumps along the road to recovery. We find with our inner city school of social work and with access programs that often you have to work with the whole family because somebody who has a particular issue, it is enmeshed in the family.

So you can help the person, but if you do not help the home situation, then to go back into the home situation it all falls apart again. The wheels come off. So the scenario of saying at the end of the day, look, you have to do this, we do not find arises very often, but at the end of the day if we have to do that, that is what sanctions are all about. It is just that that is not where we start. Mr.

Cummings: Would it be fair to say then that a sanction situation says to the person who has reached that point in the road, as the minister just described-th ey are told what, that they may not be eligible for assistance if they do not clea n up their act? *( 17:10 ) Mr. Sale: Let me just give the member a bit of information specifically about addictions.

We have provided an additional $405,000 in this year's budget for additional resources for addiction treatment, and we just finished training across our system to all of our workers, all of our intake and benefit workers to assist them in identifying people who have addiction problems, to spot addictions more effectively because some people are pretty good at hiding that. We also, by the way, just finished training our entire staff in terms of sensitivity to disability issues. Many disabilities are hidden-diabetes, for example and some people are reluc tant to disclose that particular need.

So we are trying to increase the skills of our staff to be more effective in working with people who may have barriers. In terms of the question, specifically, a general assistance recipient who is deemed employable and for whom there is no obvious barrier, other than the ones they utterly refuse to deal with, are terminated. Again, that does not happen very often, but that is what we do. It is the same policy the previous government had. The sanction levels for people who have child ren but are employable because their children are older are exactly the same as they have been.

There is a first level of sanction and a second level of sanction, and they are identical to what they have been all along. Again, I want to emphasize that we are dealing with less than I percent of our overall caseload, and that is actual ly the same level as it was with the previous government as well. Mr. Cummings: I thank the minister for that explanation. It makes sense, and to some extent I think I feel a little bit vindicated over some of the debates that have occurred in this area. I recognize the difference in how the minister believes it should be approached, and I respect that.

But in the end, I conclude that if we are close to the same numbers, it is a matter of how good a job we do before anybody ever reaches that spot, and there I do not think we have a disagreement. A working individual who can provide some support for himself is a much more valuable and contributing member of society, and there is no phil osophy or political movement that I am aware of that would disagree with that approach. I want to perhaps go to the Community Living area in terms of some questions that I have had brought to my attention.

The one thing that I want to spend a little bit of time on would be the funding issues that have arisen in this area, but let me just ask a couple of general questions to begin with. Instead of me asking a question line by line, in terms of the funding for Regional Opera tions, the difference in salary dolla rs and employee benefits that are lis ted there, that is just normal incremental changes? Mr. Sale: The member may remember we talked about the MSSP payroll and casual and hourly people converting. This is the area in which the majority of those employees work.

So that is why this increase appears somewhat higher than the overall departmental increase, because it is absorbing the bulk of those people who are converted to permanent.

16 38 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 10 , 200 1 Mr. Cummings: So these have been converted to permanent full-time numbers. Are there other contracts or secondments involved in this area? Mr. Sale: No, Mr. Chairperson. Mr. Cummings: Adult Services, Assistance and External Agencies I am assuming is the line that reflects the Phase 1 funding that the ministry has-[interjection] Adult Services. Am I on the right line? Mr. Sale: It reflects the combination of both the increase in volume, of numbers of people placed in the community, as well as the specific strategy around staffing stabil ization.

So if the member is referring to the third line in the Estimates, I think it is $95 million versus $1 10 million. It is a combination of staffing stabilization plus volume increase. The member probably knows that we clo sed Peli can Lake last year, so 69 individuals were placed in a community. That is a chunk of that. We also pla ced others who were critical needs. Often where families are aging and have been caring for a son, a daughter or a relative, the family is no longer able to care for them and they require pla cement.

These come into this category, as well, a very significant demand on our department in terms of the numbers of people with disability that are either becoming adults or are coming into our care because their families are no longer able to provide care for them. Mr. Cummings: I was going to ask this in a moment, but the minister touched on it. The waiting list for those who are in critical need, sometimes it is a matter of how critical is critical. Is there any number that the department has that indicates how elastic the waiting list is, how large it is getting? Mr.

Sale: The waiting list is made up of a couple of components, people waiting for residential service and people waiting for day programs. Residential Services has approx imately 47 1 people waiting for residential services. Put that in the perspective of about 3600 are in care in the community at this point so it is a significant number, and 17 6, which are some of these people-there is double-c ounting here because some need both-are waiting for day services. It represents a total number of individuals of 553 at the present time.

As the member knows, there are a number of children who reach age of majority each year, and that is approximately an additional hundred, roughly. So the demand in this area is huge, and increasingly the level of need of the people involved is higher than when we started to do community living alternatives because we had many people in our institutions and communiti

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-2-28b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 2nd hansardpdf 28b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	33ea59b7f5c1ebae9df9fa099c9a01c98f13daa1

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