ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 80A - 2:00 p.m., THURSDAY, 2 JUNE, 1983. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON , Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlo tte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT. Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLA TIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 2 June, 1983. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . MINISTER IAL STATEM ENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I apologize that I will have to make a correction as we go along. I received this just at the last minute. I wasn't able to make the correction. Mr.

Speaker , I am informed by officials of my department and the Department of the Environment that baseline studies on the well water in the area near the proposed site of the Underground Research Laboratory at Pinawa have detected radio-activity levels in excess of maximum acceptable concentration recommended by guidelines for Canadian Drinking Water Quality of 1978. I understand that the maximum level of concentration is based on drinking two litres of water per day for 365 days per year, and is set at 100th of the concentration of the occupational dose limit for continuous exposure of workers.

I would point out that the residents with affected wells in the Pinawa area, that is, Lac du Bonnet, the town and the municipality and the people in the area, were advised of the situation by way of a hand-delivered !etter today. The letter indicates that although the radiation levels in the well water present little risk, alternate sources of water for cooking and drinking may be considered.

I would emphasize that surface water - and there's the correction - instead of the Pinawa area, it should be in the area of the proposed URL, Underground Research Laborat ory, were found to be free of significant radio-activity. I would also emphasize that the levels of radiation in the well water are considered to be naturally occurring and attributed to the type of rock formation in this area. I'm informed by the Radiation Protection Bureau in Ottawa that the levels of radiation found in the well water is not unique or unexpected in rock formations of this kind.

Officials from my department and the Department of the Environment are monitoring this situation closely. Further tests are being taken to confirm the radiation levels and to determine the type of radiation involved. I might say that the monitoring is going on and as soon as we have more information we'll give it to the House and release it to the public also. MR. L SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, there's no disputing the fact that forewarned is forearmed, and on behalf of my colleagues on this side ol the House, and particularly my colleague, the Honourable Member for Tuxedo, the Official Opposition critic on the Environment, we thank the Minister for his warning and acknowledge the caution that is being exercised. We trust the inconvenience, difficulty and anxiety that may be caused for residents of the Pinawa area will be quickly removed and quickly alleviated. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motions . . . Introduction of Bills .. . IN TRODUCT ION OF GU ESTS MR.

SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 22 students of Grade 6 standing from the Snow Lake School under the direction of Mr. McQuoid. The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Housing. There are 30 students of Grade 9 standing from the Morden Collegiate under the direction of Mr. Einarson. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Pembina. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, before Oral Questions, I would like to rise on a question of privilege. We have on our desks today Bill 78,

An Act to amend The Telephone Act and with that we have a press release, presumably, put out by the Minister responsible for Manitoba Telephone System. It refers to the introduction of this bill into the House and makes public release about information which has not been introduced in this House. I don't see Bill 78 on the Order Paper, I don't believe it has been introduced for second reading, Sir . . . MR. H. ENNS: Just another lie. MFI. B. RANSOM: . . . and this is certainly another breach of the tradition of this House and another example of how this government is unable to handle their affairs.

They seem to be in such a hurry to introduce a mass of legislation late in the Session, that they are unprepared to follow the normal routines. The government is prepared to resort to this type of activity, Sir, and I believe that it's appropriate for the Minister of Government Services at least to offer an apology to the House. We recognize that he is new in his position. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain is not concluding his remarks with a substantive motion. It is not a matter of privilege.

The matter of which he complains may be a matter of discourtesy, but it is not a matter of privilege. The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I, as another member of the Assembly, have . . . 3351

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 MR. SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question? MR. H. GRAHAM: No, on a matter of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: There's another matter of privilege? MR. H. GRAHAM: I speak on a matter of privilege. I have received on my desk a news release put forward by the Honourable Minister of Government Services HON. R. PENNER: That's what he was just talking about. MR. H. GRAHAM: . . . that is certainly of concern to me, and I have just received a printed copy of a bill purporting to deal with the Manitoba Telephone System and I think, Mr. Speaker, it is fitting that matters dealing MR.

SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Is the honourable member referring to something different from the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain, which has just been dealt with and concluded? MR. H. GRAHAM: No, Mr. Speaker, I'm dealing with a matter of my personal privilege in this Assembly. MR. SPEAKER: If it is different from that which has already been raised in this House, the Honourable Member for Virden can proceed. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I am concerned about this and therefore, Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for River Heights, that this matter be referred to the Rules Committee of the Assembly for proper consideration. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader on a point of order. HON. R. PENNER: Well, on a point of order, the members opposite have made assumptions which are simply groundless. The press release has not been released. It's being distributed to the members of the House along with the bill so that they should be the first to have a chance to see what would be introduced by way of speaking explanation in a day or so.

This has been discussed in the House before. It has been agreed and it's agreed on our side that something that's released to the press before the bill is circulated ought not to be done, but this is not the case. I've satisfied myself in speaking to the Minister of Government Services that this is being distributed to the members first and as such, it breaches no privilege, breaches no rule. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please.

This proposed motion by the Honourable Member for Virden is not shown to be any different from that matter raised on a purported matter of privilege by the 3352 Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain, which has already been dealt with and ruled out of order. This accordingly is also out of order. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Speaker, I find it very difficult in my position to challenge the ruling of a Speaker, but in this particular case I would suggest that I have followed every rule of the Assembly and if I am being overruled then I would respectfully challenge your ruling, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The question before the House is shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained. Those in favour, please say aye; those opposed, please say nay. In my opinion, the ayes have it, I declare the motion carried. ORAL QUE STIO NS Brandon Gene ral Hospital - staff elimination MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fo11 Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Health. Notwithstanding the fact that he is the Minister of Health, not the Administrator of Brandon General Hospital, and not the Chairman of the Board at the Brandon General Hospital and I recognize that, Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Minister whether he can tell this House whether or not Brandon General Hospital is moving to eliminate licensed practical nurses from its staff? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, there is certainly no policy of government or the Commission that would suggest that this has been done. Now what is being done by the hospital, I'll have to take the question as notice and find out from the Brandon Hospital. MR. L SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the Minister whether he or officials of his department have received a number of communications from LPNs at Brandon General which have come to me, and which would indicate on the copy list contained on those letters that they have similarly gone to the Minister and to a number of his colleagues, including the Honourable Minister of Community Services, stipulating that the hospital has indicated to them that there will be a change in staffing patterns, and the intention of the hospital is to move to phase out the licensed practical nurse.

That is not to say that it would not be replaced with something else, but if its replacement is to be a person holding a baccalaureate or an extensive qualification of that kind, there is obviously a serious impact involved here on employment and hiring and staffing patterns, and the futures of those LPNs. HON. L. DESJARDINS: I can't say that I remember receiving this letter or copy of this letter. I'll certainly

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 check, but I would like to say if that is the case I would also be very concerned.

Some of the members of Cabinet met with the officials of MONA not too long ago, and this is one of the concerns that I expressed to them, and they assured me that it wasn't the intent of MONA to replace the LPNs by RNs, either diploma or, in fact, not to replace the diploma nurses also by nurses that all had degrees, although I think there is an endeavour for many of the nurses to try to improve their state, and then I think that many of them would like to have a chance to, those that have received only a diploma, get their degree.

But I asked MONA specificially what was the intent, would we eventually have all RNs and all RNs that received their degree, and they assured me that that wasn't the case. MR. l. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate the Minister's response and I would just ask one final supplementary, and that is: Can we then conclude in this House and through the various reporting mechanisms, assure the LPNs working at Brandon General Hospital that their jobs are secure insofar as the Minister of Health and the Manitoba Health Services Commission are concerned and that there is no intention by this government at the present time to phase out the LPN and replace her or him with a different category of nurse? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, I'm glad the member added, as far as the Minister of Health is concerned, yes, without any hesitation at all. I think that in the past we've realized that there are certain people that do certain jobs, certain work, and it would just add to the cost if everybody is overqualified. Now, there might be a reason why the Brandon Hospital has done that. I'd want to talk to them and talk to the Commission before, but as far as my own personal belief as of now, unless there is some other information that I don't have and I certainly would want to keep an open mind on that.

But it would take an awful lot of persuasion to get me to change my mind on that. Anti-noise by-law violations MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a question of the Minister of Labour. I would like to ask the Minister of Labour if there are any particular regulations within her department that would prevent the use of loud hailers between the general foreman and the operators of overhead cranes on any construction sites within the City of Winnipeg? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. M.B. DOLIN: Mr.

Speaker, I'll be happy to take that question as notice. Gove rnment co nstruction project s - exemptions MR. H. GRAHAM: At the same time as the Minister is taking that as notice, would the Minister also indicate whether there were any particular exemptions for construction on government projects within the City of Winnipeg? HON. M.B. DOLIN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'll research the question fully. Anti-noise by-l a w violatio ns MR. H. GRAHAM: I would like to ask the Honourable Attorney-General a question.

I would like to ask the Attorney-General if he could indicate to the Legislature what charges, if any, have been laid against Mr. John Kehler, who yesterday was arrested, handcuffed and forcibly removed from the grounds of the Legislature? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: The Honourable Member for Pembina shouts from his seat "shame." I should point out again, if he was here yesterday, he wasn't listening; if he wasn't listening, he wasn't understanding.

In either case, he hasn't deviated from his past pattern, and that is that neither myself, nor any other member of government had anything to do with the removal of that person and I deplored it in the House yesterday. But to answer the question, the person has been charged with a breach of the anti-noise by-law. This is a municipal by-law under the by-law making power of the City of Winnipeg. He is being released on his own recognizance with some conditions attached and the matter was remanded for a week from yesterday to appear in court on the 9th of this month.

My officials are continuing to look into the matter. One of the concerns that I raised yesterday which continues to be a concern of mine is whether or not, with respect to a municipal by-law of that kind, there exists the power to arrest without warrant. The person was arrested without warrant and that in itself raises some question. I think, Mr. Speaker, just one other observation, because the matter is sub judice and I don't want to get into it. There are problems that I think all authorities will have to consider in this year of the Charter where one of the guaranteed rights is freedom of expression.

I think that one should not be hasty at all in restricting someone's freedom of expression. Very often that freedom of expression will be with respect to a grievance, sometimes with respect to a minority cause, and it sometimes isn't something that people against whom it's directed or may be in the vicinity of the demonstration or expression of opinion are comfortable with, but we live in a democratic society and we have to learn that kind of freedom of expression is guaranteed in our Charter. l\ll R.

SPEAKER: Before the Honourable Member for Virden proceeds, I'm sure he will recall that matters which are before the courts are not deemed appropriate for questions in the House. The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for that admonition. I, like the Attorney-General, am very concerned a:,, out speculating on any case that is before 3353

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 the courts, but I believe the courts are a public record and it is proper and fitting that people should know what individuals are charged with before the courts. Having said that, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Attorney-General a supplementary question. Can the Attorney-General confirm that a senior general counsel in his office was the person that informed the City Police, in fact was present when the City Police arrived and personally supervised the arrest and handcuffing of Mr. Kehler even though no attempt to resist ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please.

The honourable member will recall, I am sure, that matters that are before the courts are inappropriate for questions before the House. We would not like the honourable member to ask a question which might in some way compromise the case. The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I would hope, Mr.

Speaker, that you would listen carefully to the question I put forward, and I would again ask the Attorney-General if it is true that a senior general counsel in his department was the person that informed the police and was present to supervise the handcuffing of the individual who was forcibly removed from the Legislative grounds? HON. R. PENNER: That answer to that question is no. Now had he asked the question properly, he might have got the answer he was looking for. A senior judge - if he wants to ask me the name of the judge, that's up to him. I go no further.

Two senior judges, one more senior than the other, apparently being disturbed by the noise, which as I say, I found a little bit perplexing since Cabinet was meeting much closer to the person and was not disturbed by the noise - we had enough of our own going on - asked the senior counsel referred to about the matter. The senior counsel did no more than ask the police what the law was in this respect. It's out of his inquiry, not complaint nor requesting the police for action as I am advised, that the police attended and thereafter acted entirely on their own. MR. H. GRAHAM: A further supplementary question.

Am I then led to believe that senior general counsel was not at the scene when the City Police arrived, and personally identified the offending person to the City Police? Is that what the Attorney-General is telling me? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: What the Honourable Member for Virden was advised of is what I told him. Now what more does he want? I told him that the information he has about a senior counsel somehow being involved in the arrest is erroneous. Those are not the facts as I have them.

With respect to the surly remark hurled across the floor by the Member for Turtle Mountain, I have only received the police report within the last hour. I did not have the police report. I have the police report now and, to the extent that I can answer questions which do not get into the matter you have correctly identified, namely, the merits of the case, I will answer those questions, but no further. MR. H. GRAHAM: A final supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Would the Attorney-General consider it to be an admirable action on the part of any Minister of the Crown to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth when answering questions in this Assembly? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Virden ought to be more aware of the rules of asking questions than to ask such a question. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. Anti-noise by-law violatio ns MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the first question put by the Member for Virden about disturbing of the peace by construction cranes and so on, I wanted to also ask the Minister of Labour first of all whether there is, in fact, a limit on the audibility of the P.A. system regarding construction sites and cranes in populated areas. Secondly, if there is not now a standard for that, I would like to know whether she would believe that standards should be established, because some of these cranes operate in densely-populated areas early in the morning much to the discomfort and dismay of local residents. Given, Mr.

Speaker, that there are, in fact, modern communication systems, I don't know if it is necessary for crane operators to be heard over a radius of many blocks in a city like Winnipeg. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. M.B. DOLIN: Mr. Speaker, I will be happy to take this question as notice as well and consider it as we look at the entire picture. Certainly occupational health and safety limits do set the level of noise that is acceptable, and I will be working with my colleague, the Minister responsible for that area, in preparing the answer to this very important question.

Envi ronment Week meeting MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Honourable First Minister. I wonder if the First Minister could inform the House what the purpose of the meeting in Room 200 the day before yesterday was at which the Governor General and the Minister of Immigration and Citizenship were present at a reception there in the afternoon. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, the purpose of the meeting was dealing with the environment, the calling of Environment Week and the issuing of a proclamation dealing with the providing of some awards to various 3354

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 school children in the Province of Manitoba that had entered into competition pertaining to Environment Week. MR. D. BLAKE: I wonder if the First Minister could inform the House who was invited to that reception. HON. H. PAWLEY: I have no idea who was invited to the meeting. I know that Room 200 was packed with those that are interested in respect to matters pertaining to the environment. Certainly more information can be obtained if the honourable member wishes to have that information. I'm sure that can be obtained for the honourable member. Anti-noise by-l a w violatio n MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ellice. MR. B. CORRIN: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Attorney-General. Mr. Speak er, in view of the fact that the Attorney-General's Department is responsible for the enforcement and prosecution of municipal by-laws in the City of Winnipeg, will the Attorney-General give consideration to instructing his Crown Counsel to enforce or order a stay of proceedings with respect to the case of the individual who has been apprehended with respect to the city's noise by-law on the grounds of the Legislative Buildings yesterday? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden on a point of order. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Speak er, I believe that the question of the honourable member is one that is certainly dealing with a matter that is before the courts, and trying to influence the courts is something that no member of this Assembly should try and do. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please , order please. I believe I did say something earlier this afternoon about matters which were before the courts and I would not expect any member to ask such a question.

Neither would I expect the Honourable Attorney-General to answer such a question. MR. B. CORRIN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ellice will rephrase his question. MR. B. CORRIN: No, I don't wish to rephrase my question, it's on a point of order. I wish to explore the issue of order that's been raised by the Member for Virden. The Member for Virden raises the premise that matters that are before the court shouldn't be discussed and I agree.

But the issue that I raised was essentially one which was within the purview and domain of the Minister responsible for law enforcement. The issue is whether or not, within the administrative capacity of that Minister and within his role as Minister responsible for the Department of the Attorney-General, whether he would exercise his authority and in so doing ask his departmental Crown Counsel to withdraw a prosecution that he had launched in the name of the Queen on behalf of the public and right of Manitoba.

So with respect to the Member for Virden I think that the question actually was not addressed specifically to a matter before the courts but rather a matter before the purview of this Legislative Assembly. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, to the same point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Springfield to the same point of order. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to draw the attention of the House to Citation 335, in Beauchesne, Page 118, which in reference to the sub­ judice convention states "The purpose of this sub-judice convention is to protect the parties in a case awaiting or undergoing trial and persons who stand to be affected by the outcome of a judicial inquiry." Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that the purpose of the convention which is a voluntary one, a voluntary restraint imposed upon the House by itself, is to protect the parties from discussing the details of any case.

A question as to whether or not the Attorney-General would consider a stay of proceedings is not a reflection on the merits of the charge or any of the details which will be placed before the court, and certainly would seem to be a question which should be in order in this House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden to the same point. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Speaker, I would ask you to listen carefully to the points put forward both by the Member for Springfield and the Member for someplace up ... A MEMBER: Ellice. MR. H. GRAHAM: Ellice. I would suggest to you, Mr.

Speaker, that if you listen carefully to the debate put forward by the Member for Ellice and the Member for Springfield, it is a direct attempt at trying to influence justice in this province and should be outlawed. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The remarks of the previous few speakers have sounded remarkably like the pleadings of lawyers, which I have no competence to judge one way or the other. The matter is, as has been mentioned, listed on Page 118 of Beauchesne, where members can read what Beauchesne has to say about the matter.

It would seem, too, that the questions have referred to a particular case, a particular incidence that has happened and which is likely to come before the courts. It would therefore seem appropriate that the House deal with other matters of interest and not ask questions about or pertaining to this particular case. 3355

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. Abortion cli nic - Dr. Mo rgentaler MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Attorney-General. Can he confirm that he has recieved a preliminary police report from the Winnipeg Police Department with respect to Dr. Morgentaler's Clinic and expects to receive a final report by next Monday? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, I can confirm that I received a preliminary report outlining the investigation which is taking place and the progress that has been made on that investigation.

I can further confirm that I expect to receive a further report - I doubt whether it would be a final report - a further report early next week. That much I can confirm. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, could the Attorney­ General indicate whether he will be dealing with this matter personally or the matter will be handled by the Director of Prosecutions. HON. R. PENNER: The matter will be handled by the Director of Prosecutions. Jobs Fund - alloc ation of funds MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister.

In his capacity as Minister responsible for the Jobs Fund, can the First Minister advise the House how much of the budgetary authority for the Jobs Fund has been allocated at this point? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, in the neighbourhood of $70 million has been allocated. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, can the First Minister indicate how much of the $10 million contributed by Manitoba Government Employees has been allocated? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, $70 million has been allocated and that $10 million is within the general total, complete total, so that at this particular point there is $70 million allocated out of the total budget pertaining to the Jobs Fund. The $10 million is part and parcel of the total. Jobs Bill - seco nd reading MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, the House gave second reading to the Jobs Bill over four weeks ago. The government does not seem to have been in any haste to proceed with that bill.

Can the First Minister advise what purpose that bill will serve when it's passed since the budgetary money, at least, seems to have largely been allocated? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, we are proceeding on the expectation that the bill, indeed, will be passed, and as was mentioned during the introduction of the bill, the bill assists in respect to the administration and the payout of monies in respect to the Jobs Fund. It's administratively necessary and certainly we are proceeding on the basis that bill will be passed with the support of each and every member in the Chamber.

Certainly, on the part of members on this side of the Chamber. Order for Return No. 12 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, on April 7th, I asked the Attorney-General when he would be tabling the Order for Return No. 12, which he said was ready, and his answer, Sir, was: "I am considering the legal position of the government before I file it in terms of the privilege of those individuals.

When I have satisfied myself that we are not, in fact, unintentionally, but nevertheless breaching the privacy of those individuals such that we might be subject to a suit ... ," he would then decide whether he would table it or not, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that I have asked the Legislative Counsel for an opinion, although I have not gotten one back in writing because he's so busy with legislation, he has informed me verbally that the government is not liable. Could I ask the Attorney-General when he will be tabling the Order for Return No. 12 which has been ready for a long time? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: I'll discuss the matter with Legislative Counsel. I thank the member for advising me that an opinion has been obtained, I haven't received it myself. I will be glad as I usually am to be advised by Legislative Counsel and I normally find his advice very persuasive. Small Busi ness Interest Rate Relief Program MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, I would send the Attorney-General a copy of this if he doesn't have one, but I would ask him if he would please consult the report on small business which is the spring of 1983, and on Page 7, he will find that the government is advertising and naming two people who have received assistance from the the Small Business Interest Rate Relief Program. It's been made public to others. I wonder if he would take that into consideration when he is deciding whether to table it or not. HON. R.

PENNER: Where a matter of personal privacy is involved, it's always up to the individual to waive whatever protection the law affords that person with 3356

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 respect to privacy, I assume. But I can only assume at the moment those persons have permitted the use of their name, but I will look into that as well. Oak Point emergency road MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the First Minister. My colleague, the Member for Arthur, has asked this question on numerous occasions to the Minister of Agriculture. I have dealt with the matter with his Minister of Natural Resources during Estimates.

I now ask the First Minister for his personal intervention and whether or not he will not reconsider the Department of Natural Resource's decision to take out a short piece of road that was put in three years ago during a hay emergency in the Oak Point, the Marshy Point area. It's just a matter of several hundred yards of road that were put in to assist several ranchers to get at valuable hay supplies.

I remind the First Minister that we are looking at a possible hay shortage this year with the kind of winter kill that we've had, and whether he would not think that there are other places to spend $12,000 or $15,000 to take out a road. You know, rather than - in fact give it to the Minister of Highways who's had to decrease highways spending by 20 percent this year, - (Interjection) - or give it to the Minister of Agriculture to put it back in the 4-H programs, but why spend $15,000 to take out a road that was put in three years ago to help some ranchers to get at their hay?

Would the First Minister's office - I don't want to be unkind to him, but we've raised this matter with his Ministers - would the First Minister just give me his commitment to look into the matter? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'm impressed by the honourable member's deep concern for a matter obviously involving some of his constituents and certainly we'll take a look at that along with the Minister of Agriculture.

The Minister of Agriculture, in fact, may have something further to report today in view of the message but we'll be glad to take a look at the honourable member's concerns that he's raised. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I was hoping perhaps the Minister of Agriculture would, indeed, have something to report. I point out, just in a further supplementary fashion, Mr. Speaker, the request to remove the road comes from an absent landowner living in Montreal. The people, the constituents, that want the road are asking for it to stay.

So, I'm asking this government really to ask themselves whether or not they should be spending $14,000 or $15,000 to remove that road? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member should be aware that I have been involved in this matter. - (Interjection) - Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member should be aware that this question was raised in 1980, and the honourable member was, I believe, a member of the Provincial Land Use Committee at which time the decision was made to allow these lands, which were an integral part of the management area or the goose sanctuary in the Marshy Point area, this matter was put to the, I believe, Western Interlake District Planning Board in which the R.M. of Coldwell is in by the Provincial Crown Lands Classification Committee to seek their views and opinions with respect to the lands in question and there are some two sections or parts of two sections of land that have been periodically under grazing lease.

The decisions that were given by his administration were that these crossings were of a temporary nature. As late as early this spring, I had occasion .to speak both to the individuals involved and to the municipal council indicating that the road was in fact a municipal road and if council was prepared to assist because the road was theirs and wished to deal with this question, we would defer to them. But the fact of the matter is, the council and the district board both agreed to leave these lands in their natural state. The question of the shortage of hay is one that we are concerned about.

I have met with the individuals involved as late as approximately one hour ago and have indicated to them that council should indicate their position to us because there has been a decision made by the Municipal Council and by the Western Interlake Planning District Board to us. We would certainly be prepared to review our position in that respect and allow the municipality to continue that road, but we are waiting advice and in terms of whether those crossings - and we're talking about basically not the road, but the crossings - will be removed.

We're prepared to await further confirmation from council as to their intentions. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I'm intrigued with the Minister's answer and I want to assure him all I'm asking from him is please don't you send in your bulldozers to remove it. What council does, or what anybody else does, I'll accept their opinion too, but what I'm asking you right now, my understanding is that on June 6th, your government is sending in bulldozers at taxpayers' expense to remove the road. So would he just give me the commitment that you're not going to do that.

You'll back off and you'll wait for council to make their decision. If you do that, then I'm very happy. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member should be aware and I will quote from a letter that was written as early as a month ago by staff within the Crown Lands Classification Committee to people in the Oak Point area indicating that as early as March of 1981, the R.M. of Coldwell Council resolved that the sections in question of the leased land were critical areas for the resting and brooding of Canada geese and the council requested the Crown land plan designate these two sections for wildlife use only and that no agricultural use be allowed.

This request was made again in April of 1982 whereby the Western Interlake District Board agreed to the 3357

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 province's Crown land plan for the area subject to these two sections of Crown land being limited to wildlife use only. In June of 1980, the Marshy Point area, including these two sections, were identified as possible sources for additional hay under the 1980 Emergency Drought Program, and to facilitate access to this area it was agreed that temporary crossings would be provided in the area. Upon the ending of the drought, the request to eliminate agricultural use of

Section 89 was acted upon by the Crown Land Classification Committee. MR. D. ORCHARD: Table it, table it. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speak er, I will certainly table the letter for the member's information, but certainly we are prepared to review that position. Translatio n of statutes MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Two days ago, I took as notice a number of questions from the Honourable Member for St. Norbert and I'd like at this time to respond to those questions.

He had asked me as to the amount of money that has been spent to date, since 1979, with respect to the translation of statutes and regulations and quoted a figure of $2 million. The figures that we have with respect to those costs to date, including what is estimated for this current fiscal year, are $1,204,987, which are made up as follows: the year 1980, $94,989; 1981, $205,000; and 1982, $390,000. 00.

The member further asked me whether or not what we expected the costs of translation, up to and including the year 1993, under the proposed amendment to The Manitoba Act, and he quoted a figure of $15 million to $20 million. No, Mr. Speaker, the figure of $15 million to $20 million would be a vast overstatement of the cost of translating statutes and regulations under the proposed amendment.

As I indicated, our budgeted costs for this current year is approximately $513,000, which is equally split between that which is needed for staying current with the annual production of statutes and dealing with the backlog of the pre-Forest statutes. The amendments and the agreement with the Federal Government should enable us to undertake a complete revision of statutes in English and French, and the government has already announced that the cost of this revision is projected to $3.5 million shared 50-50 with the Federal Government.

It's my estimate that the net cost to Manitoba for this revis'.on and for the translation of statutes and regulation on a current basis will not exceed $6 million over the period in question. Finally, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member asked for me to confirm whether or not since the translation of statutes that the Queen's Printer has sold 25 . A MEMBER: Lying� HON. E. KOSTYRA: I don't know, Mr. Speaker, if the member would like the answer to the question. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. E. KOSTYRA: . . . whether or not there has been sold 25 statutes in French.

I can confirm that only 25 copies of French statutes have been sold by the Queen's Printer. I would just caution this figure should be taken in the context that only 22 of the possible 383 statutes in continuing consolidation have been translated. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I simply wish to thank the Minister for providing that information. Bill No. 47 - introductio n MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Attorney-General, the House Leader of the government, and for the sake of this House not being confused by him any more I wonder if he could explain to the House, Bill 4 7, that was just introduced to us. It is introduced by the Honourable M. Penner in French, and the Honourable Mr. Adam in English. Could he please explain who is introducing the bill? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R.

PENNER: I was about to say, if I've left the honourable member confused, I've only left him where I found him. A MEMBER: Pick him up, pick him up. HON. R. PENNER: I now withdraw that remark because his source of confusion indeed is not originating with him but with the printing of this bill. They seek 'em here, they seek 'em there, they seek 'em everywhere, the elusive L'Hon. M. Penner. He doesn't exist and perhaps that's as well. The House probably feels from time to time that one Penner is more than enough and we'll see to the correction of this grave error. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The time for Oral Questions having expired, the Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I beg leave to make a non-political statement. MR. SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave? (Agreed) NON-P OLITICAL STATEME NT MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. 3358

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 MR. A. BR�WN: Thar.!k you, Mr. SIJ@-"lkf'r. Today marks the 30th anniversary of the coronation of our Queen Elizabeth. She is a monarch who has gained the admiration and respect of all her subjects, whether they be in the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and all the countries over which she is the Queen. Her dedication to duty and responsibility, her concern for the well-being of her subjects, have endeared her everywhere, even beyond the countries over which she is the monarch. Mr.

Speaker, I trust all members will join me in congratulating the Queen on this momentous occasion. I would ask you, Sir, on behalf of all the members of this Assembly, to convey our congratulations and best wishes to Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: I indeed thank the Honourable Member for Rhineland for raising this matter and ensuring that this is brought to the attention of honourable members.

Certainly those on this side wish to fully associate themselves with the congratulations to Her Majesty with respect to this 30th anniversary from the date of her coronation. BUSINESS Of THE HOUSE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Just an announcement, two announcements in fact, Mr. Speaker. The House will not be sitting on its regular sitting day a week from Friday. This is a matter of some accommodation that has been made between this side of the House and the opposition to accommodate those members of the opposite side who will be travelling to their leadership convention.

There is a collateral announcement that goes along with that. That is that on the 30th of June which is a Thursday the House will not be sitting to accommodate members on this side who will be going to the 50th anniversary convention of our party. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: With respect to that announcement, Mr. Speaker, I would just like to point out to the Government House Leader and the House that, if indeed their whole caucus is not planning to attend, we would be prepared to conduct committee business on that date. HON. R.

PENNER: I thank the honourable member for that suggestion, and indeed it will be taken under consideration. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Could the Honourable Government House Leader indicate the next item of business? HON. R. PENNER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Community Services and Corrections; and the Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of the Cultural Affairs and Historical Resources. CONCURRENT COM MITTEES Of SUPPLY SUPPLY - CULTURAL AFFAIRS AND HISTORICAL RESOURCES MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Committee, please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now be dealing with the departmental Estimates for the Department of Cultural Affairs and Historical Resources. Consistent with tradition and practice, we shall begin with an opening statement from the Minister responsible. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I welcome this opportunity to present my department's Estimates, and to review the substantial progress and more notable achievements of the past year upon which these Estimates are based.

Members are aware of the strong commitment this administration has to preserving and developing Manitoba's culture and heritage in full recognition of the diverse backgrounds and traditions of its peoples. This commitment is reflected not only in the numerous occasions that my staff and I have consulted with individuals and organizations throughout this province, but also in our understanding of what culture encompasses. There are a number of

definitions of the word "culture" which depend in large part on one's background and personal experience. The narrowest definition is the one that regards culture as the arts. A broader definition relates culture to ethnic origin. In some respects, the name of my department, Cultural Affairs and Historical Resources, tends to generate the notion of culture as being separate from heritage, and heritage as meaning our history and the artifacts of our past. My department and I define culture in a broad context.

We regard culture as being all those aspects that combine to reflect who we are today as individuals and as Manitobans. In this sense, culture includes our heritage and all those elements of our past that have played a role in the evolution of life in our province and nation. In this respect, some of the elements and their significance in forming our views have not been given adequate recognition and have not become an integral part of our expression of Manitoba culture.

I am thinking of the many and varied histories: The history of our first peoples, our Metis and our Francophone history, our ethno-cultural history, our labour history and the role that women have played in shaping the province. Each province of this country is unique. It is the heritage, the cultural past and the cultural vision of the 3359

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 present and future that give us an identity of our own. Our cultural past is reflected all around us in many forms. We see it in our architecture, our languages, in the visual arts and crafts, and in our songs and dances. It is also reflected in more fundamental aspects of our life, our diverse religions and philosophies, the way we earn our livelihood and the family traditions that shape the way we see ourselves and others and help form our attitudes and values.

At the first Provincial Cultural and Heritage Conference held in March, I found this understanding to be shared by other Manitobans from all areas of the province. The inherent value of this diversity to Manitoba's unique identity was further demonstrated at the Ethno-Cultural Assembly held in April for the purpose of founding the Manitoba lntercultural Council. In relation to this last one, Mr. Chairman, I am especially pleased to note that this government has met its promise to provide a forum to address the needs of the ethno-cultural community.

The framework for this forum is identified in The Manitoba lntercultural Act which I introduced to this House in April. I am looking forward to working with the Council in the days and weeks ahead. This government recognizes the contributions of all ethno-cultural groups to the social, economic and cultural enrichment of our province, and is committed to safeguarding these assets for future generations. The government also recognizes that all citizens contribute to our society, and therefore that all citizens must benefit from what society has to offer.

It is tor this reason, that my department's Multicultural Grants Program has been increased from $135,000 to $300,000 and the Linguistic Support Program has been increased from $40,000 to $60,0000. 00. As I mentioned earlier, Mr. Chairman, my department sponsored the first Provincial Cultural and Heritage Conference in March. At that time I announced a number of new thrusts to repriorize .the activities of the department in order to better serve community needs.

Consistent with the broader view of culture I expressed earlier , existing programs have been reformulated and expanded within the broader framework of a community cultural and heritage development policy. Within this framework three categories of programs have been developed. The first category is the community support programs. These are the programs which provide core funding or capital assistance to community groups and institutions such as libraries, museums, multicultural organizations or cultural councils.

The objective of these programs is to provide assistance which will help to build the strong foundation at the local level. The second program category we have called the Skills Development Programs. These programs seek in various ways to address the needs for training that have been expressed to me and my staff.

Only through the development and strengthening of skills at the local level can we hope to ensure the encouragement of creative expression and the maintenance of our culture and heritage. · The third set of programs is termed Cultural Opportunities, and it includes those activities that are sponsored either by the communities or by my department that are designed to promote exposure or increased awareness.

In an effort to deliver our programs and services to a broader segment of the population we are reorganizing our staff resources to provide a stronger regional service focus and we will be working closely with the regional local recreation personnel as part of our efforts to improve co-ordination and communication, and to better serve the needs at the local level. In addition, Mr. Chairman, access to information is being extended through the quarterly publication of Manitoba Culture and Heritage, a newletter which will be available to any Manitoba citizen at no charge.

We have reviewed some of the department's programs in the past year and there are other programs that are scheduled for review. These include our programs of support to regional and provincial festivals and to associations of regional or provincial significance. The purpose of the review is to find ways to serve a broader base of the population within the framework of existing resources. A good portion, Mr. Chairman, of the budget of my department comprises grants to the major cultural and heritage institutions of Manitoba.

The Manitoba Arts Council, the Museum of Man and Nature, and the Manitoba Centennial Centre are but several examples. In these difficult economic times my department continues to place priority on sustaining these community institutions. Overall the budget for grants to these institutions has increased from $6,440,000 to $6,878,000, an increase of $438,000 or approximately 6. 8 percent. Mr. Chairman, provision has also been made for an increase in provincial support to Manitoba Public Libraries.

Shortly I will be seeking Cabinet approval for an improvement in the formula used to calculate library operating grants. I'll be proposing that for 1983 libraries will be eligible for a basic grant of 3. 50 per capita up from $3 last year. The mill rate that governs the equalization and incentive grant components would remain unchanged at 1.35 mills. In addition since last year the Library Capital Grants Program has been revised.

Major changes include removing a limitation of one grant per facility and replacing it with a ceiling of $50,000 per facility, clarifying the definition of capital to reflect the programs' orientation towards projects affecting the physical plant and removing the limit of one bookmobile per system. Mr. Chairman, I should point out that during the past year, I have assumed responsibility for the Office of the Queen's Printer. As you know, the Queen's Printer is responsible for the management and control of all printing and statutory publications and the provision of stationery and office supplies.

During the year, I also assumed responsibility for telecommunications policy. In this capacity, we are addressing such issues of current relevance as Pay TV and the provision of telecommunications services in the North. The 1983-84 radio drama competition we co-sponsored with CBC is but one example of the linkage between technology, culture and the creation of regional content. Other efforts currently being undertaken by my department together with advisory committees which are representative of the cultural community include the development of a film policy and a publishing policy.

This is part of a broader focus on cultural industries and new creative activity. I expect this to result in the 3360

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 introduction of appropriate support programs later this year. This government, Mr. Chairman, is strongly committee to the preservation and sound management of Manitoba's heritage resources. My department will be undertaking a number of initiatives this year in this respect. About most important, I believe, is the need for strong heritage legislation. I will, therefore, be developing legislative changes respecting The Historic Sites and Objects Act to be discussed in the near future.

My department, in discussion with the Provincial Archives, the Museum of Man and Nature and the Winnipeg Art Gallery has also developed a heritage conservation policy. This policy will enable the provision of advisory and treatment services to heritage repositories and museums throughout the province. The Provincial Archives will also be providing skilled development opportunities in the new year for those interested in oral history. This activity will help to reinforce our very popular Local Histories Program. As well, Mr. Chairman, staff in my department have initiated a review of provincial museum policy.

Members of this committee are, no doubt, aware that the level of assistance to community museums has not been increased since assent was given to The Museums and Miscellaneous Grants Act back in 1970-71. We will be looking at this program in the context of recognizing museums of regional or provincial significance, and also at the range of advisory and technical support services currently available to museums and heritage associations.

In addition to these specific tasks, we will be working to ensure that those aspects of our culture that have not received adequate attention in the past will be given more consideration. I am thinking of the examples I referred to earlier such as our ethnic, Native and labour history. Through new appointments to the Historic Sites Advisory Boards, I have attempted to ensure a balanced perspective in the portrayal of our history. In closing, Mr.

Chairman, it has been shown in the past and will continue to be shown that in hard economic times, even those much harder than we are experiencing at the present time, people will not give up their cultural pursuits. In fact, it is in hard times that we have had to turn to these pursuits to find joy and to ensure that they are never regarded as being dispensable. Perhaps the goal that we all have to hold in the next few years is to embrace our cultural past and to express our cultural present in a way that we will be proud to have remembered in the future.

As individuals, our greatest single resource is our creativity. It is essential that we continue to find ways to express this creativity and to meet the needs that are so essential to the quality of our life in Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chair now calls upon the leading critic of Her Loyal Opposition to deliver her reply to the Minister's opening statement if she so desires. The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the Minister for his remarks and giving me a copy of his statement.

I think that we can just go right into the line-by-line, if you like, of the department and I'll just make remarks as we go along. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. The Chair invites the member of the administrative staff of the Department of Cultural Affairs and Historical Resources to kindly take their respective places where they feel most comfortable to help their Minister. Postponing Item 1.(

a) relating to the Minister's Salary plus the last item for the committee's consideration, we shall begin with Item No. 1.( b)(1), 1.(b)(2) and 1.(b)(3) relating to the Departmental Executive: Salaries; Other Expenditures; Multicultural Policy Development. The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if there has been any additional staff in the Departmental Executive? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I think if the member would concur, what I will give is an overview of the staffing changes for the total department, if you'd rather have that overview now.

With respect to the Minister's office there has been an increase of .08 which is basically the increase due to the fact that my salary was broken into three separate departments before and is now broken into two. Within the departmental executive there is an increase for an information officer and two staff persons for Multicultural Policy Development. In the Legislative Library there is a decrease of two positions. In the Manitoba Film Classification Board there is a decrease of one position.

In Cultural Development there is a net increase of .39; where there is an increase within that of one full position and a decrease of .13 in a term position. There is a decrease of one position within Public Libraries. An increase of one position in the Provincial Archives and a decrease of 1. 1 position within Historic Resources which is a net reduction overall within the department of 1.15 positions. MRS. G. HAMMOND: The information officer, is that a part of the Information Services or is this something that's separate? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Information Services is not under the Department of Cultural Affairs and Historic Resources. This position will be a position reporting to the Deputy Minister to provide the full range of Information Services for the department as a whole. MRS. G. HAMMOND: This was a new position? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, this is a new position. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I wanted to ask about the Multicultural Policy Development and to ask how much of the $140,000 in last year's Estimate had been spent to date? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Of the $140,000 that was set aside last year for the Policy Development, $120,000 was spent or approximately, because I obviously don't have the final year in figures yet. Of that amount, approximately $53,000 was transferred to the Multicultural Grants Program because of increased demand in that area. Last year there was, I think, about $135,000 budgeted for multicultural grants and some 3361

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 in excess of that was granted. Part of that was made up through underutilization of the money that was set aside for the Multicultural Policy Development. It was hoped, at that time, that the Council would have been operating during the last fiscal year. The money that was spent was basically spent for the various costs of the Interim Liaison Committee, the Planning Committee, a Multicultural consultant and related costs, papers and such, stationary. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Is the . . . MR.

CHAIRMAN: May I just call her the Member from "K" Park, because it's a tongue twister? MRS. G. HAMMOND: Go right ahead. If you want, call me the member. The money that's allocated this year, the $139,200, is that expected to be spent on the Multicultural Council, or are you planning to transfer funds out of these funds? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The $139,200 is expected to be spent on and for the purposes of the lntercultural Council.

The salaries for the staff people that would be assigned to the council, whatever costs would be associated with the calling of the meetings of the council and related costs to the operations of the council itself. I would not, at this point, see any transfer of those funds for other purposes. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, is this amount the actual budget that is proposed for the lntercultural Council? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes. MRS. G. HAMMOND: The head office that's referred in Bill 50, where will that space be? HON. E. KOSTYRA: That has not been determined at the present time.

I would await the formalization of the council and its executive before determining where it ought to have its offices. I would hope that they would use some existing space within government buildings, if that's possible, but I would await the passage of the legislation, the formal meeting of the council and its election of an executive before determining where the office would be located. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Referring to the council itself, did any of the major groups decline to join the council? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I will get the complete information in a moment.

The one major group that formerly indicated that it was not going to participate at this point in the council was the representatives of the Francophone community through the SFM. However, two representatives of individual organizations attended the Founding Conference and one member was elected from those two on to the council. I'm just waiting for the details, but there are a number of other ethnic communities that didn't elect representatives at the conference.

The one major group that comes to mind is the Hutterite community, but other than that I would take that as notice and provide her with the information once I have it in my possession, hopefully later today. MRS. G. HAMMOND: That's fine, Mr. Chairman. I think that's all I wish to deal with in that particular line if you want to pass it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Can we pass 1.( b)(1) ? MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.( b)(1)-pass; 1. (b)(2) - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, would this be an appropriate place to ask further questions on the Communications Officer that the Minister has indicated he's bringing on staff this year? MR. CHAIRMAN: It will be appropriate. The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could the Minister indicate whether this is a new position - and I assumed from his remarks and he may want to correct me - that this Communications Officer is going to deal with press release information for the Department of Cultural Affairs and Historical Resources, would that be correct? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: I had answered earlier that this was a new position. I went through the changes in staff within the department and indicated there is an overall net reduction of just over one position, but this is a new position. The purpose of this position would be to look at all aspects of information and communications within the department which would include the function of looking after any news releases that are done by the department. Presently, the initial drafting of those releases are done by specific sections within the department and this would be co-ordinated through the central resource, central person .

They would also have responsibility in other areas of communication. The many publ ications that are printed by the department are presently done by the specific branches, usually with the hiring of some contract personnel to do the actual publication, so this would be co-ordinated through the Information Officer. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, I guess this is one more department that is falling victim to the growing demand for a propaganda machine by the government, because we have Information Services which traditionally handled the service of information , providing information, the type of information the Minister is referring to coming from this department and other departments of government. That was, shall we call it, a free-standing operation under the previous administration and even somewhat free-standing under the Schreyer administration. 3362

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 This government over a year-and-a-half has not only moved it to the Premier's Office, have it report to an Executive Assistant or a special assistant, not a Civil Service position. Now they've gone the further step of everybody developing their own little communications bureaucracy in their departments.

If I could offer some non-partisan suggestion to the Minister as to thoughts on the value and the potential misuse, i.e. cranking out government propaganda rather than legitimate government business, I only have to refer my honourable friend to some very notable speeches made by a former member of this Assembly, one Sidney Green. He was always, very very critical of the role played by News Services and communications people. This Minister or this government are not following what I thought in that case was reasonably sound advice offered by a long-standing former member of this Assembly.

We've got this Minister following the path of the Minister of Education and others in developing and building within his department a parallel and duplicating information service. It's an abuse of taxpayer dollars. It is one that will, if the member will read Mr. Green's remarks on it, cause them no end of trouble in the long run.

It might seem like a very good idea now, but it will get this Minister and this government into a certain amount of trouble, because then with the volume of releases that are coming out, the media just get turned off from all of them and you don't get your legitimate news out when you try to propaganda and prop up the image of your government with each of your departments having their own communications staff and people. That doesn't work. You have to have substance before you can have confidence given to you by the people of Manitoba.

Cranking out press releases on an hourly basis will not, over the long run, add the kind of public confidence in this government that you, no doubt, are seeking to achieve by having this expansion of communications officers throughout the various departments. HON. E. KO STYRA: The intentio n of having an Information Officer within the Department of Cultural Affairs and Historic Resources is to attempt to provide better and more complete information to the public that we're responsible for serving.

I would find it a bit strange that the member who represents a constituency in rural Manitoba would be raising concerns about this position, because in the opportunities that I have had in travelling and consulting with people that are served by my department in rural and Northern Manitoba, one of the major concerns that I heard was the lack of communication from the government, the lack of information on available programs from the government, the fact that there was a gap in information as it relates to the specific area of cultural activities and heritage.

I heard it in the regional meetings that we held last year during the month of December. I heard it in, I believe, a community that's in his constituency, that being the community of Carman. The intention of this position is to provide a focus for better communication with the groups that we serve, particularly in rural and Northern Manitoba where, I believe, the focus of attention has to be with respect to the activities of my department. So the position is not one of, as he suggests, propaganda.

That may have been something that he was used to, because I know that, as I understand or have been informed, there were communicators put in the Minister's offices during the previous government. This position is an Information Officer to serve the very needs of the department, and I believe that it's something that in this particular department is needed, and one that is responding to legitimate concerns that have been raised to me and to my staff throughout rural and Northern Manitoba. MR. D.

ORCHARD: I take it from what the Minister is saying then is that Information Services under the Premier's hand failed the government in providing information when he's now having it duplicated. The Premier was unable to organize the Information Services to provide the kind of information that he says is desired and needed. That, in itself, is quite a reflection that the Minister is making on his leader, the Premier, and the operation of Information Services under the Premier's Office. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Quite the contrary, the member is aware there was a reorganization with respect to the operations and overall Information Services of the government. If one would look at the different departments of government last year, there were some departments that had large information sections providing information for those departments, other departments, like the Department of Cultural Affairs and Historic Resources, that had no in-house capacity in that regard.

There was a reorganization generally of Information Services throughout government to provide better services to better reflect the needs of the departments themselves. In overall terms, there was no - as indicated by the Premier, I believe at the time he made the announcement with respect to the reorganization of communications, there was no overall increase in total staff that was allocated to Information Services and communications function. Secondly, that Information Services would remain in a somewhat changed role to do the final editing and final co-ordination of Information Services in the government.

So the position of this department in having one person available for that purpose does not run contrary to the overall decision and direction of this government with respect to providing information to the public. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(b)(2)-pass; 1.(b)(3)-pass; 1.(c)(1). 1.(c)(2), Planning and Development: Salaries and Other Expenditures - the honourable member. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I notice that there's a decrease in the Other Expenditures in Planning and Development. With all that the Minister was mentioning is happening in his department, was there any particular reason or HON. E.

KOSTYRA: The reduction is $10,500, and the decrease is as follows: There is a decrease in fees that we had available for the staging of the Identity and Resources Conference that was held last March of $5,000 and some costs associated with the design 3363

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 of the department's newsletter, Manitoba Culture and Heritage. There is a decrease of $3,000 which was in the previous allocation for the purchase of some equipment, and a further decrease in the amount that's paid out for the health and post-secondary education levy which is transferred to the Department of Finance, I believe, but was paid out of this appropriation last year. MRS. G. HAMMOND: What appropriation is it paid out of now, the 1. 5? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, I'm sorry.

It is paid out of this appropriation, but what it means is that there's $2,500 less than was available for other purposes within that appropriation. So it is paid out of this appropriation. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(c)(1)-pass; 1. (c)(2)- pass; 1.(d)(1); 1.(d)(2), Finance and Administration, Salaries, and Other Expenditures - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, is this where I can ask the question on the reconciliation statement that's on page 41, the page before? HON. E. KOSTYRA: You can ask it anywhere. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Yes, my question is the $65,000 for the Jobs Fund, was that money that was not spent last year, or is that monies that are just coming out of this year's Budget and moved over to the Jobs Fund? HON. E. KOSTYRA: That appropriation was spent last year, and that is the portion that was spent last year that has been transferred to the Jobs Fund. It is the Multicultural Capital Grants Program.

It is in the Jobs Fund and the appropriate time to discuss that is under the Jobs Funds, but under the Jobs Fund it's $100,000 now, so the previous level of $65,000 was transferred and through the Jobs Fund there was an increase of $35,000 in available funds. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I know this isn't the spot that I intended to ask it, but would this be the money then that was announced unaer the Jobs Fund that was for the Aviation Museum? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, Mr. Chairman.

As I understand it the grant of $450,000 to the Western Canada Aviation Museum was a straight grant out of the Jobs Fund and was not one that was an ongoing or previous grant program. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Was there or is there a particular spot that this $65,000 is to go to in the Jobs Fund? Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, I understand, the member indicated that it's $100,000 that's come out this year and so I'm asking the same question, is there a particular spot in the Jobs Fund that this money is aimed for? A historic site, anything of . . . HON. E.

KOSTYRA: ·The purposes of those funds under the Jobs Fund will be for Multicultural Capital Grants to organizations. MRS. G. HAMMOND: What the Minister is saying then is that the money that would ordinarily be spent under Cultural Affairs for capital has just been moved over to the Jobs Fund to be announced under that fund? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Not quite. As I indicated $65,000 was what was contained in the appropriation last year from Multicultural Grants. This year it's been combined into the Jobs Fund and has been increased by 30 percent to $100,000. 00.

So $35,000 is the amount of the increase for the Multicultural Grants that is contained within the Jobs Fund. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, but this is money that is designated, both the 65,000 and the 35,000, would have ordinarily been in Cultural Affairs under a Capital Grants Program. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: The $65,000 was contained, and if there would have been allowance for increase then I presume that increase would have been allowed, but it was felt that because of the nature of the grants that they were better suited to the Jobs Fund and particularly that this kind of activity can lever additional private sources of funds to help the job creation that was transferred to the Jobs Fund, and enhanced by over 30 percent. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, there's a transfer of functions to education in the amount of $12,000.00. Could the Minister explain this? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, thank you.

The transfer there is as indicated, the $12,000 is for a Student Bursary Program that's under agreement between France and Canada with respect to some form of student exchange study program. It was felt that would be a better a part of the Department of Education rather than Cultural Affairs and Historic Resources. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (d)(1)-pass; 1. (d)(2)-pass - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: I'm not sure whether I've got the right

section here but in the Minister's opening remarks he mentioned development of a film policy and a publishing policy, I believe. Would that be appropriately discussed within the general administration of the department? HON. E. KOSTYRA: If the member promises to leave after that, then I would discuss it anywhere and not come back and discuss the same issue tonight. No, Mr. Chairman, I think we can discuss it here. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister is agreeable to discuss it as long as the discuss;on shall be brief. HON. E. KOSTYRA: That's misrepresentation, I didn't say that. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, you know that I always very very closely follow your advice and I thank the Minister for his kindness. The film policy that the Minister is developing, what is the eventual outcome going to be of that? Is the target to make films in Manitoba by Manitoba 3364

Thursday , 2 June, 1983 producers? Is that the objective of the film policy in Manitoba? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Well, I think it would be difficult to say what the objective would be if you're trying to develop a policy obviously, but at the present time we have, surprisingly, a significant file industry in the Province of Manitoba. It's clear that it hasn't been focused and it's one that's been of concern and attention, not only by this government, but in fact, the previous administration when funds were set aside for the development of film policy, but unfortunately, were spent on other purposes.

I would see the need of developing a policy with a two-prong approach, or two major provisions. One is to look at ensuring that we can develop an industry here that does reflect, through film, the culture of this province. Secondly, is the industry side of it, that we can further help develop the industry as it exists in the present time. It's been clear to representatives of the film industry, that it's at kind of the crossroads, that it's either going to develop further in the kind of areas that it has developed on its own in the past, or it's going to move backwards.

It's not our intention to develop Manitoba or Winnipeg as the "Hollywood of the North," It's inappropriate and it won't work in the context of Manitoba. But I think there is an area for us developing focused attention on the film industry. That was something that also I just note, was dis cussed and was a recommendat ion of the Cultural Policy Review Committee, back in the late '70s or early '80s.

So it's our intention to look at how we can work with the film industry to help further develop it in the Province of Manitoba and ensuring that we use the film industry as a way to ensure that we meet the cultural needs of this province. MR. D. ORCHARD: Is the policy development being developed in-house by the department, or are you retaining a consultant, an outside consultant to develop the policy? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Yes, it's being developed through the establishment of an Advisory Co mmittee of representatives of the film industry in the province, filmmakers, and others, and is being supported by one staff resource researcher to assist with the necessary research for the committee. The Advisory Committee is composed of representatives from the Manitoba Film Producers Association, the Winnipeg Film Group, I believe a filmmaker that's not a member of any formal organization, the Manitoba Arts Council. MR. D.

ORCHARD: With that, I would assume volunteer group that are industry participants, formulating the policy, surely the Minister must have offered them some guidelines to target their policy development along. Was that done, or are they under a free-ranging policy pursuit? HON. E. KO STYRA: I think the member has to understand that the Advisory Committee there is to advise on the research work that's being done. The actual policy development will be, of course, one that would be the responsibility of our government.

We're looking at advice from the Advisory Committee in the skills area, the production, and probably one of the most crucial areas, distribution of films. So the overall direction is somewhat loose in having them look at what is needed, because they're the ones that are out there attempting to make a living, or earn a profit, through the production of films in the province. So we want to get their advice and get the researcher to do the necessary research work to look at other jurisdictions, so that we can develop a policy that would reflect the needs of the industry here. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Is it too soon to ask the Minister whether the policy would include, at this year or some future year, support funding for filmmakers in Manitoba? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Well, at the present time, there is some small grants programs available for film producers in the Province of Manitoba through the Manitoba Arts Council. So it may be that the recommendations that come out of the policy development may suggest an enhancement of those grants, may suggest what exists, as I understand it, in some other jurisdictions, that is loan guarantees or interest right down on loan.

It may include some essential resource to help in the co-ordination of activities in the film industry, like the film office that exists in some provincial jurisdictions. So, I wouldn't prejudge what would come out, but it could include those components, or an enhancement of the existing grants, as minimal as they are, that exist for film in the province. MR. D. ORCHARD: Moving on to the publishing policy, could the Minister indicate the parameters there in the process that's going on in developing the publishing policy, as well? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: It's somewhat similar to that that's being developed with respect to film. There is an Advisory Committee that has been formed of representatives of the publishers in the Province of Manitoba, libraries, writers and book sellers. There is a consultant that has been retained, on contract, to do some of the research work and provide some options and that's being done in two stages, looking at publishing with respect to books and secondly, with respect to periodicals.

I might just add, this is another area that I think, on its own, in the Province of Manitoba, we have developed a fairly good group of Manitoba publishers utilizing Manitoba writers and this has existed and struggled along over the years and one that I hope, through our work, we can enhance. MR. D.

ORCHARD: If I can offer a small suggestion to the Minister, I would hope that he keeps the present Member for Elmwood away from his policy-formulation committee, because I recall a resolution that he brought before the House, I think it was two or three years ago, where he was going to force all book retailers in the Province of Manitoba to carry a given percentage of Manitoba books and I would hope that the Minister's policy development would not include those kinds of 3365

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 activities, but rather an encouragement and a support service to assure that our writers develop and have access to quality publishing, quality writing. I would ask the Minister if the publishing policy, in his view, would take us back to the years of, I think it was Clare Publishing, back in the Schreyer days where we owned our own publishing firm? That wouldn't be part of this Minister's policy developing, being the free enterpriser I know him to be? HON. E.

KOST YRA: Mayue I lost some thing in attempting to appreciate the comments of the member, but as I understand, he was suggesting two things to me. One was that we should have a Manitoba publishing firm as a Crown corporation, and secondly, that he wanted some guarantee that when he publishes his book, some years from now . . . MR. D. ORCHARD: I'm going to publish my memoirs. HON. E. KOSTYRA: ... his memoirs that Manitoba publishers would indeed sell it, and I would encourage any Manitoba bookseller to stock books that may be written by the member. But seriously, Mr.

Chairman, I would not see a policy with respect to the publishing of books or periodicals in the province that would have any aspect of force in it on Manitoba booksellers. I would hope that we could have programs in place that would provide the necessary incentives to assist in the distribution and sale of books and the production of books in the Province of Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: Every human being has unlimited potentials. 1. (d)(1), 1. (d)(2)-pass. 1. (e)(1), 1. (e)

(2) Translation Services: Salaries and Other Expenditures - the honourable member. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes. I just have a question with reference to languages other than French. Last year, the Minister indicated that there was German, Spanish, Hungarian and Dutch being provided for translation, at least interpreters I would think. Have any other languages been added? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I didn't get all the languages that were mentioned. The ones that we have the capability at the present time to interpret are German, Spanish, Ukrainian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian, Japanese, Chinese and Danish. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (e)(1)-pass; 1. (e)(2)-pass. 1. (f)(1), 1. (f)

(2) Legislative Library, Salaries and Other Expenditures - the honourable member. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes. The Minister, Mr. Chairman, indicated a decrease of two at the Legislative Library. Was there any particular reason that the Minister was able to decrease two staff in that area? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The positions that were decreased were one term position that had existed and one vacant position. We still believe that the resources of the Legislative Library will be sufficient to provide the necessary services with the reduction.

It was one that 3366 was part of the overall belt-tightening that we were looking at during this current fiscal year. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (f)(1)-pass; 1.(f)(2)-pass. 1. (g)(1), 1. (g)

(2) Manitoba Film Classification Board, Salaries, Other Expenditures - the honourable member. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes. Have there been any changes in policy for the Film Classification Board? HON. E. KOSTVRA: There's been no change in policy with respect to the Film Classification Board at the present time. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (g)(1) - the honourable member. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Nova Scotia is making their movie shown on Pay TV, subject to the same classification system as used for films shown at theatres. Has the Minister given any thought to that type of policy for Manitoba? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: I understand from discussions that I had some time ago with the Minister of Nova Scotia at the time when we had a meeting of Provincial Ministers, that they were looking at that area. I don't believe they have in effect instituted that because, again, Pay TV is under federal jurisdiction. So the simple answer is no, that we have not looked at that area. The one area, I might just add, that we are looking at is the whole area of videotapes, the ones that are sold and used in various public facilities in the Province of Manitoba. We're looking at and reviewing that whole area at the present time.

As the member may recall, in fact just this past week, there was a decision in the Province of British Columbia with respect to that same area of videotapes and uses thereof. So we're reviewing that area to see the possible classification of videotapes that are sold and utilized in public facilities in the province and/or for home use. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I'm just looking at a press release here that indicated that it is a regulation now in Nova Scotia. So the Cabinet has passed that policy. HON. E. KOSTVRA: I thank the member for that information.

I understand that it is true, but there is some question as to whether or not they can actually implement that regulation. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (g)(1)-pass; 1.(g)(2)-pass. 1.(h)(1), 1. (h)

(2) Telecommunications, Salaries; Other Expenditures-pass. 1. (h)(1)-pass; 1. (h)(2)-pass. 2. (a)(1), 2.(a)(2 )(a), 2. (a)(2)(

b) Cultural and Heritage Programs, Cultural Programs: Cultural Grants; Cultural Development - the Honourable Minister. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, before we get into that area, I have the information regarding the ethnocultural groups that I only had partial information for. The groups that are not at present going to be reflected on the ethnocultural assembly are the Hutterite, Finnish, Danish, Belgian, Norwegian, Estonian - we all learn something, that's one I wasn't aware of

Thursday , 2 June, 1983 before - Latvian, Lebanese, Slovenian, Croatian, Welsh and English. I indicated earlier the situation with the Franco-Manitoban representative. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Just if I may, one brief question. How many members have been elected so far? HON. E. KOSTYRA: There are 36 representatives of the various ethnocultural communities, five regional representatives and one representative from the service category, for a total of 42. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (a)(1)-pass - the honourable member. MRS. G. HAMMOND: If I may in this area, Mr.

Chairman, I'll just go all over the board and then we can pass the whole area. MR. CHAIRMAN: I have to be guided what to call. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Meaning the Cultural and Heritage Programs? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, all of 2.? MRS. G. HAMMOND: Right. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, I'll just call them first, so we'll agree on that. 2. (a)( 1), 2. (a)(2), 2. (a)(2)( a), 2. (a)(2)( b), 2. (a)(3)(a), 2. (a)(3)(b), 2.(a) (3)(c), 2.( b)(1), 2.( b)(2), 2. (c)(1), 2. (c)(2), that's it. I called them all and we agreed that we can ask free-wheeling questions. The honourable member. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Would the Minister supply the !ist of the grants for the major cultural organizations? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The Manitoba Centennial Centre Corporation is $1,201,900 which is an increase of $67,000 over the previous year. The Franco-Manitoban Cultural Centre is $231,600 which is an increase of $16,600.00. The Ukrainian Cultural and Education Centre is $106,600 which is an increase of $5,800.00.

Western Manitoba Centennial Auditorium is $53,500 which is an increase of $2,000; Museum of Man and Nature, $2,563,3 00 which is an increase of $223,900; Winnipeg Art Gallery, $1,282,200 which is an increase of $79,000. 00. There are funds under the Cultural Grants of $81,000 which is to implement a conservation service program with the Museum of Man and Nature and the Winnipeg Art Gallery.

The Manitoba Arts Council is $1,316,800 which is an increase of $83,800; a deficit reduction grant which will provide up to $30,000 for the Winnipeg Contemporary Dancers, and Miscellaneous Special Grants Program of $12,000 which is available for other emergency or for any potential emergency. Last year, there was $20,000 set aside for that purpose, so that was a reduction there. The total, as I think I indicated in my opening remarks, is $6,878,900 which is an overall increase of $438,200 .00. Those are the major Cultural Grants, think, as the member is aware. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Would the Minister happen to have the increases to each of the grants in percentages? I should have asked him that before. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I will give the complete listing with the figures, percentages, etc., to the member. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Has there been anyone assigned outside of probably the Deputy to study or to be keeping on top of the Applebert Report, and have there been any changes that would affect Manitoba policy from that report, or have there been any recommendations actually finalized? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: The department has done an initial review of the recommendations of Applebaum-Hebert Report, particularly looking at how they may impact on the Province of Manitoba . We have also requested all the organizations and other interested parties in the province to bring forth to us their concerns with respect to the impact of the recommendations if they were indeed implemented on the specific groups in the Province of Manitoba.

We have, through the provincial Ministers of Culture, indicated our concern that the Federal Government engage in detailed consultation with the provinces prior to the implementation of the recommendations. We're really awaiting the Federal Government to put it into some kind of context, because no one really knows how the Federal Government intends to move with respect to the recommendations. They do have the Austin Committee that has been formed.

There has been some work done in DOC with respect to the report, but we are still in a somewhat difficult situation to respond until we have some greater indication from the Federal Government as to how they are going to deal with the implementation, if indeed they are, of all the recommendations of the report. I must say that in two areas we have grave concerns and have expressed them . That is on the recommendations particularly dealing with the National Film Board and the CBC.

We are of the opinion that if those recommendations were to be implemented that they would have a tremendously negative impact to the Province of Manitoba. While we see room for improvement with respect to both of those institutions, the suggested cure, if you will, recommended by the Applebaum-Hebert Committee is one that will not provide any improvement, in fact the opposite in the Province of Manitoba. MRS. G. HAMMOND: As far as the two areas are concerned, Mr.

Chairman, the National Film Board and the CBC, are there any other provinces that are similarly affected to give Manitoba more clout if this is the direction that they are hoping that they won't be going? HON. E. KOSTYRA: This item has not been discussed in any great detail by the provincial Ministers. We did have some short discussions on the report, and we were more concerned with the process ensuring that the Federal Government was going to indeed consult 3367

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 with the provinces. I would expect that we are going to have much more detailed discussions at the Minister's Conference in September, but I do understand that most of, if not all, the prairie provinces and the Atlantic regions and the Territorial Governments share the view of Manitoba with respect to those recommendations. I might also add that representatives of the film industry in Manitoba have expressed the same concerns to me, and I know they have directly to the federal Minister and the Austin Committee. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Has there been anyone on contract, a term employee at all, been working on the Applebert Report as it relates to Manitoba? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, the work has been done by staff within the department. I'm sure, as the member is aware, we are fortunate in Manitoba to have now working as the Deputy Minister one who was part of the Applebaum-Hebert Cultural Policy Review Committee. So we are fortunate in having that expertise directly available and the knowledge of the background that went into the Report available here. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Has the position for the Director been filled for the Winnipeg Art Gallery? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No. II/IRS. G. HAMMOND: I understand there is a Search Committee. Is there a short list, or are they still in the process of looking? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: I'm informed - first of all as the member is aware, the Deputy Minister has at my request been placed on the Search Committee by the President of the Winnipeg Art Gallery, and I'm informed that there is a preliminary short list, but the Search Committee apparently wants to look to see if there are any other suitable candidates that might be encouraged to apply and thereby be put on that preliminary short list. So I would take it that it's still some months from a decision. MRS. G. HAMMOND: The indication was that the position would be filled by a Canadian. Is that still the aim of the committee? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Yes. MFIS. G. HAMMOND: How much ol a reduction, in the way of grants, did the Canada Council give the Art Gallery? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'm sorry, but I do not have that information available. Indeed. if the actual decision's been made, I know there was some indication that the Canada Council was not satisfied, and thereby was planning to reduce its financial assistance to the Winnipeg Art Gallery, but I can't confirm !he actual amount or, indeed, if that has happened at the moment. I will take that as notice and provide the member with the information, if it is available, as soon as I can.

The assistance from the Canada Council was frozen for a number of years and I understand that they were looking at cutting back this year, but I will get that detailed information and provide it to her if it is indeed available. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I thank the Minister. If there is a shortfall and it was indicated, whether it's correct or not, to be somewhere in the neighbourhood of possibly $70,000, will the Manitoba Arts Council have to make up this shortfall? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, the Manitoba Arts Council does not fund the Winnipeg Art Gallery.

The funding is directly through the department and it is not the intention of the department to provide any further funds than that which is allocated at the present time for the Winnipeg Art Gallery, so we would not be intending to pick up any of that shortfall. MRS. G. HAMMOND: To deal with the Manitoba Arts Council, has there been any change in policy or direction in the Council? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: The Manitoba Arts Council has attempted to focus attention on the developing arts in the province, has attempted to provide greater outreach programs for the client organizations that it funds, and is attempting to provide greater assi<;tance for individual artists and artisans, so the change in direction in that regard is one which is attempting to help expand the audience base and support for the arts in the province.

So the focus of attention, in effect, any increase of funds that are available for use by the Manitoba Arts Council this year are going into touring, into arts exposure programs and support for individual artists. MRS. G. HAMMOND: The Arts Council has given an indication to the province's major performing arts groups that they can expect no increase in operating grants for next year. Is this an indication that the province is planning to reduce funding to the council? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Quite the contrary. I think that's an indication that this government will not be doing that.

The actual grants that go to the major performing arts organizations, through the Manitoba Arts Council, are being maintained at the present level on the straight grants. The majors are eligible and are being encouraged to look at programs that put work in the expressed priorities of the council, that being outreach and school programs. So the major arts organizations will have the ability to seek additional funds for those activities !hat fit in the priorities of the Council for outreach and work in the schools. I must say I'm pleased, Mr.

Chairman, that Manitoba is one of the few provinces that has been able to maintain, in fact marginally increase its funding to the Arts Council, and thereby to the artists and artisans and performing visual arts organizations in the province, because in some other provinces, unfortunately, there's been not just a maintaining of grants, but indeed a reduction in grants to arts organizations. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Can an organization receive a grant through the Arts Council and directly from the government? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, from time to time there are situations where a client organization of the Manitoba 3368

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 Arts Council receive funds from the Arts Council and funds from the department. They would fall into a number of categories. One would be where the organization is doing programs that relate to the community development thrusts of the department. As the member is aware, the Manitoba Arts Council's focus is to work with the professional artists and arts organizations in the province and the mandate of the department is to assist with community development of culture in the province and from time to time those thrusts meet, in fact they should meet consistently in my view.

As an example, the contemporary dancers receive funds from the Manitoba Arts Cou ncil and the department is giving it a special challenge grant on its deficit reduction and I think the same was true in the past with the Royal Winnipeg Ballet when they were in deficit, and to an extent with the Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra. There's been times when the department has provided funds for the Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra and the Ballet to do projects in the park. Indirectly, they receive assistance lrom the department through touring in rural and Northern Ma nitoba.

Although the grants go directly to the communities, they're used to pay for those organizations when they come into rural or northern communities. So there are situations where the major arts organizations will receive funding. We work closely with the Manitoba Arts Council to ensure that there isn't duplicate funding, rather it's complementary funding. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Which community arts councils operate cultural centres? I'm referring to, I guess, more the rural areas. HON. E. KOSTVRA: Is the question which Community Arts Councils have their own facilites as such?

Well I'll go by memory from my travels around the province. But Brandon has an existing facility and a new one that's going to be a combination Library and Arts Centre, Dauphin, Teulon, and Portage. Others I believe use existing community facilities in their communities for their activities, and Leaf Rapids. MRS. G. HAMMOND: These Arts Councils then would own their own buildings or would !hey be leased? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: I would have to get that detailed information but I think most of them lease or rent space in facilities that are owned by municipal authorities, though in the case of Brandon there's going to be a new organization that's being formed as the organization that will be managing and operating the combined Library and Arts Council in Brandon. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I understand that the Tour Hosting Program has been changed and it is now, is the Public Events Program? I wonder if the Minister could explain what happens to the small community organizations then that have liked to bring in their own performers.

How does this work? Or am I correct on that? HON. E. KOSTYRA: They will be eligible for grants under the Public Events Sponsorship Program. I believe the member does have the information as far as the guidelines and the grants. If not I would be pleased to provide her with copies. Basii::ally they make application for assistance under the program and then will receive indication as to whether or not they will receive support and the level of support that they will receive.

One of the things that has been accomplished by the new program, well, I guess two accomplishments, one was the program was expanded to provide for a greater variety of events. In the past the program tended to look specifically at performing arts or artists. It's now been expanded to look at other activities ranging from readings to lectures to gallery shows. Secon dly, we've combined resources in the department to have greater financial resources available for that program without an overall increase, but rather the combining of existing resources in the department. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: I'm not sure I've got this straighl - the Public Events Program - I'm looking at a Press release here that says this replaces the Tour Program. I don't understand , I guess, the change. the small organizations, are they still able, like a senior citizens group, or a school, able to bring in an event under this program? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes. It has to be a non-profit community organization but they are eligible for assistance under this program. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Is there a top limit as far as money went or is it open-ended? HON. E. KOSTYRA: There is no maximum under the progam. It's based on need.

There used to be flat grants to organizations of $500 rural, 750 in the north, and 1,000 remote. It's based on the need and the actual costs of the production or the event and also the revenue projections that would be with that event. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, how does one judge the need? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, there's a number of criteria. One is the facilities or the resources that exist within the community; the need of that community as against other communities within the province; there was equal access and equal distribution throughout areas of the province; those kind of criteria. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The hour being 4: 30, we are interrupting the proceedings of this committee for Private Members' Hour. Hopefully, we shall be here at 8:00 p. m. SUP PLY • COMMUN ITY SERVICES CORRECTIONS CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: Committee, come to order. We are considering the Estimates of the Department of Community Services and Corrections, Item 5.(b) (

i) lnstituional Mental Retardation Services: Salaries - the Member for Fort Garry. MR. l. SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if the Minister could provide the committee with the 3369

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 staff total at the Manitoba School at the present time. Does he have a categorical breakdown; and does he have to go with that, a comparison of staff-to-residents so that we get a staff-to-patient ratio; and does he have with that a comparison of those same figures for previous years during the two or three years immediately preceding this one? MR. CH.AIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. l. EVANS: I have the staffing pattern at the Manitoba School for Retardates as of, I believe it is as of 1983-84. The number is 742. I don't have handy the number from last year, but the . . . MR.

L, SHERMAN: The total staff is 7 42? HON. L. EVANS: . . . 7 42 is the total staff including the Chief Executive Officer right through to some contingency positions , that is , positions that are available to replace people who are ill, leaving for holidays or for whatever purpose. The number of clients at the school December 31, 1982, it was 830. So that compares with 742 staff positions that we now have available. I have the previous years for the Manitoba School client population, but I don't have the staff. I'll just tell you what the client population was. These are all as of December 31s t. So in 1978 - 855.

MR. L. SHERMAN: 855? HON. l. EVANS: Yes. 1979 - 854; 1980 - 828; 1981 - 832; and as I said 1982 - 830. I'm sorry, I don't have the staffing pattern of previous years. We could obtain that. We do have the total number of staff as of last fiscal year, staff years or staff positions - 745. So last year - 745, this current year - 742. MR. L. SHERMAN: Insofar as the three years prior to last year are concerned, would there have been a significant difference in the Minister's memory or the memory of the Deputy Minister, Mr. Johnstone, who was here in the committee?

The Minister has said that he doesn't have the exact figures, Mr. Chairman. I'm just wondering whether the 7 42 on staff at the school for 1983-84 represents anything significantly more or less than the staff totals in the years 1979, '80 and '81. Does the Minister or the Deputy Minister recall offhand what those approximate comparisons would be like? HON. L. EVANS: We found one more previous year, namely, 1981-82 and that number was 745, identical with last year. So I would suggest that the pattern of staffing is more or less constant, at a plateau I suppose you'd say. MR. L.

SHERMAN :· So that we're looking at a staff­ to-patient ratio that is fractionally less than one-to-one at the Manitoba School. Is it the intention or the view of the government that the staff-to-patient ratio at the Manitoba School should be a minimum of one-to-one, or even better than one-to-one? Or is the department satisfied that it's fractionally close enough to one-to­ one to be satisfactory? HON. L. EVANS: Just an observation about the statistics, the numbers that I gave you of staffing, of course, are those who work in the Department of Community Services and Corrections.

It doesn't include support staff who are on the payroll of the Department of Government Services, which would include the engineering staff and maintenance people. I don't know, but if you added that in maybe you would get more of a one-on-one situation. I suppose like in many areas of endeavour the sky is the limit and you can always have improvements in programs by having more staff. It would certainly be good to have more staff. I think it partly depends on the kind of population you're dealing with, the degree of retardation.

There is an effort, as the honourable member knows, to attempt to put as many people in borderline, mild, moderate situations to keep those people in the community, to try to indeed prevent them from coming in, and to wherever handle them either right within the families by giving the families more respite care or by creating community residences or whatever alternative; but this is a proble m, of course, that's been around for a long time.

It's a problem where this whole question of where our mentally retarded population resides and how they are being treated and served is a question that's being actively studied now because we have some indepth studies going on related to the task force on mental retardation as a point of departure. I did mention the other day that there is a possibility of phasing out North Grove because the fire commissioner's office is requiring us to upgrade for fire safety purposes and this is a very very expensive process.

It's deemed by some people that the monies required for fire upgrading in that particular building would not be monies well spent, that it would be far better to just phase out that particular building. So that might have some implications for the population at the school. I want to say this, that unfortunately the school is often badly maligned, it's often unfairly criticized. I think that we have an excellent staff at the Manitoba School for Retardates at Portage la Prairie.

They're doing their very best and I've had opportunities to be there on two or three occasions in the past year and I've been impressed with the dedication of the staff and the various services offered by the staff.

I was acquainted with one or two particular difficult cases that they were able to assist and I know some of those individuals, I won't mention names of course, who had different problems including problems of hearing, problems of physical appearance and so on have been assisted to the point where we believe that we may be able to take them out and assist them to live in more of a normal community residential setting. But this is something that can't be done overnight, and it's something that nevertheless we're looking at, and there's a possibility that we could make some changes in this respect.

The constraining factor often is the monies that are available. Fortunately, that is the stark reality of off (inri services to the retarded. I think that there's so m,•, ;h to be done. We indeed would like 3370

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 to improve the ratio; we indeed would like to see more programs at Portage; we indeed would like to see new improvements there. With regard to the one building, we are looking at the possibility of phasing that particular facility out, so it may have some impact on the population at the school. MR. l. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I know that my colleague, the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie, has a number of questions he would like to ask, particularly in the realm of redevelopment and potential redevelopment for the school. Just before yielding the floor to him on that point, Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister one more question about the staffing patterns. Obviously, if the Department of Government Services employees were included in the totals that would bring the overall total, I'm sure, fractionally above the one on one ratio.

It's my experience that has been the desirable ratio that successive governments have attempted to achieve in this particular institution, this particular facility, although it's also my understanding that in the field of institutional mental retardation generally in North America that a seven to nine ratio, seven staff to nine residents has been demonstrated to be satisfactory and practical, provided the staff component that one is referring to is a component that is made up very heavily of professionals .

So I'd just like to know from the Minister whether in that number of 7 42 staff that he has given me for 1983-84, for the Manitoba School, whether there is a significant number of professionals, a significant number of therapists, a significant number of behaviour modification specialists and the like, because no one for one moment minimizes the value of all the other categories of staff that comprise the family of employees at a great institution like the Manitoba School?

But we can have one on one, or even two on one and still not be doing the job for the residents that needs to be done if there is not a significant chunk of that staff total devoted to the professional specialties. HON. L. EVANS: Yes, I can give the honourable member a breakdown of the staffing pattern . . MR. L. SHERMAN: Okay. Yes, thanks. HON. L. EVANS: . . . and that would give you some idea of our capacity out there. I can read them slowly if you wanted to note them, or else do them quickly and you can read them tomorrow. MR.

L SHERMAN: Well, maybe the Minister can read them into the record and they'll be in the record . HON. l. EVANS: Sure. And if you want me to repeat, I certainly will. Well, of course, there's Neil Upham, who's the Chief Executive Officer, one position; medical personnel, 8 positions; nursing, this is the single greatest. Remember we're talking about a total of 742. This is the greatest single category. Nursing staff 414; nursing education staff, 8, because we do train psychiatric nurses there. A very fine school . Had the pleasure and privilege of 3371 being at last year's graduating ceremony.

Behavioural psychologists, there are 15 positions. This includes one contract, part-time person. But there are 15 persons there, or 15 positions. We have 9 positions on evaluation and program planning; we have 13 positions in education . I suppose there could be an argument as to whether we should rely more heavily on the Portage School Division to do the training of the students, but there has been a tradition of bringing the teachers in so we have 13 teachers in effect for the residents.

We have 31 people in the field of physiotherapy and motivational therapy; and then there's another 196 in what is referred to as Resource Services. This includes your laundry people, your housekeeping, your dietary people, cooking and so on, and general administration. There's a farm that's operated and we have 12 staff positions involved with that, and then the last number is Contingency, these are 35 positions. As I explained before, that is to help out where there are emergencies or people who have to be away iii or for whatever reason. So that comprises the 7 42.

As the member can note, well over half are nurses and there's certainly a large support staff in behavioural psychol ogy, evaluation, and physiotheraphy. When you take them together that's another almost, well 55 to 60 people in that category, so it's quite a significant professional component to the staff. Just another - well this is an observation with regard to the population, the residents . Today we find that the population is older on average than ever before. There are fewer and fewer young people coming into the institution for all kinds of reasons that perhaps the member is aware of.

Today, therefore, there are only 71 persons under the age of 18 out of the total population . So that explains the need not to have more teachers than we do. In other words, there are very few young people. They're older people, and there are quite a few quite elderly people as a matter of fact who do reside at Portage.

I suppose some people might even wish to make an argument that a certain part of that elderly population might do very well in a nursing home, because I visited, as I said, on a couple of occasions, and I did talk to some of these ladies and I think are very delightful people and I think they might do just as well, in some cases, in a personal care home or nursing home, because they do need to be provided for in certain ways. Someone has to prepare meals for them and provide some other basic amenities, ensure that their basic hygiene is maintained and their health requirements are served, etc.

But the population has changed somewhat over the years, but basically the bulk of the population are of the profound and severe category, and hopefully in the years ahead, there'll be fewer of the mild and borderline cases. llll R. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. L. HYDE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a few questions I'd like to pose to the Minister at this time.

The first question, has the Minister aborted the shared recreation facility for the residents of the Manitoba School and the residents of the City of Portage la Prairie, that was agreed on in principle, Sir, by the former Government of Manitoba?

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 HON. L. EVANS: I would be the first person to recognize that there is a need for better recreational facilities at the Manitoba School at Portage. There's no question that we have to do something. Various organizations have put forward - (Interjection) - I beg your pardon? MR. L. SHERMAN: You could not be the first person. You might be one of them. HON. L. EVANS: Did I say I was the first? MR. L. SHERMAN: You said, you would be the first person to recognize it. HON. L. EVANS: No, I didn't mean it in that way. Having been there, I would