June 28, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 609 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Thursday, June 28, 1979 2:30 p.m. [The House met at 2:30 p.m.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: NOTICES OF MOTIONS MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to indicate now that I will be asking for unanimous leave to designate the hour in the afternoon for government business next Tuesday. head: INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 226 The Farmland Protection Act MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I request leave to intro­ duce Bill 226, The Farmland Protection Act.

The basic purpose of the Act is to establish a land commission and set out certain procedures that have to be followed before agricultural land is taken out of production. [Leave granted; Bill 226 read a first time] Bill 30 The Health Occupations Act MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, I request leave to introduce a Bill, The Health Occupations Act. This Bill will provide for the registration of people working in cer­ tain health occupations. [Leave granted; Bill 30 read a first time] Bill 31 The Architects Act, 1979 MR. CHAMBERS: Mr. Speaker, I request leave to in­ troduce Bill 31, The Architects Act, 1979.

Along with Bill 30, just introduced by my colleague, this Bill is the first step in the implementation of the policy on profes­ sions and occupations which was tabled in this Assem­ bly on May 16, 1978. This proposed legislation is designed to provide a greater degree of public protection by ensuring quali­ ty standards and outlining professional registration and complaint procedures. In addition, it will provide architects with an exclusive field of practice.

Throughout the drafting of this legislation there's been a high degree of co-operation and consultation with the architects' association. [Leave granted; Bill 31 read a first time] head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: I have the honor to table the kind and gracious message of appreciation to the members of the Assembly from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor. I know that when we receive a formal message from His Honour, we stand to hear it. But in regard to this message, I'm sure His Honour would prefer that it be received more informally.

Therefore I'll be filing it and making copies available to all members of the Assembly. head: MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Department of Housing and Public Works MR. CHAMBERS: Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to be able to announce today the commencement of the new Al­ berta pioneers' repair program, effective July 1, 1979. Brochures and application forms will be available for eligible senior citizen home-owners to pick up at par­ ticipating financial institutions during the first week of July.

The new program is directed at helping our senior citizens keep their homes in good repair, thereby help­ ing them remain in their own homes as long as possible. Grants of up to $2,000 will be provided to senior citizen home-owners whose total household in­ come is under $12,000. Specifically, $2,000 grants will be available to seniors whose income is under $9,000, $1,500 to seniors whose income is between $9,000 and $10,500, and $1,000 to seniors whose income is between $10,500 and $12,000.

The funds will be deposited in the participating financial institution of the senior citizen's choice and may be withdrawn on the presentation of paid material bills and approved-for-payment bills that contain labor components. The senior citizen will have five years from the date of approval to spend the funds. Only one grant per household is eligible. Applicants who previously re­ ceived a grant under the senior citizen home improve­ ment program are eligible, provided they still meet the eligibility criteria.

Eligible senior citizens must be at least 65 years of age and must have been Alberta residents for at least one year. Generally all repairs or alterations to the exterior or interior of a home or garage are eligible repairs. Security devices such as burglar alarms, bolt locks, and fire extinguishers are being emphasized to help main­ tain the security and safety of a senior citizen. Improvements to yard items such as sidewalks, fences, driveways, porches, ramps, and patios are also eligible.

Our seniors will be pleased to hear that the purchase or repair of stoves, refrigerators, washers, and dryers are included as additional items in the program. Mr. Speaker, the senior citizen home improvement program has helped over 37,000 of our senior citizen households maintain their own homes. The new Alber­ ta pioneers' repair program is expected to help over 55,000 seniors repair their homes. I'm certain all members of the Legislature will be enthused about this announcement today, as it affects all our senior citizens and improves the neighborhoods in which they live.

610 ALBERTA HANSARD June 28, 1979 Copies of the brochure are being distributed to every member. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Students' Financial Aid MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct the first question to the Minister of Advanced Education and Manpower and ask if he'd explain to the Assembly why there's been a two-year delay in implementing the changes in The Students Finance Act which were promised to Alberta students by the Premier in March 1978, when the [students] met the government and Members of the Legislative Assembly on the front steps of the Legislature Building. MR. HORSMAN: Mr.

Speaker, as hon. members are aware, following the announcement by the Premier a task force was established under the chairmanship of Mr. Ron Grantham. That report was made available to members of the Assembly and to the public in Decem­ ber last year. My predecessor announced that responses to the various recommendations would be received by the department until May 31, 1979.

Some 21 or 22 recom­ mendations have been received and are now being re­ viewed by me and departmental officials, in particular with regard to the recommendations respecting stu­ dent finances — not the matter of student fee levels at this stage, because no new student fees that have not already been announced will be announced this fall. So that matter is under very active consideration at present. The recommendations may result in some changes in the Students Finance Board and policies in this province. MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, with regard to the

preamble of the question, I'd like to take notice of the alleged timetable referred to by the Leader of the Opposition in his question. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion either to the Premier or to the Minister of Ad­ vanced Education and Manpower. What progress has been made in the area raised by the students: requiring financial assistance from parents before students could receive a loan? If I might be permitted a word of explanation, the suggestion had been made by the students for age of independence of 18 years as opposed to 21 years. MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, as the hon.

Leader of the Opposition is aware, one of the main recommenda­ tions of the report by Mr. Grantham, which I referred to earlier, is to eliminate the necessity for parental consent for students over 18 years of age. There have been many responses with regard to that particular recommendation, which are being reviewed at the pre­ sent time. Of course that is something we'll have to address, not only from the point of view of the desirabi­ lity or otherwise of making changes, but as to the implications it might have with respect to the costs.

If I may supplement my earlier answer, I would suggest to the hon. leader's memory that it was just over a year ago that the demonstration took place on the steps of the Legislature, and not as long ago as indicated in the

preamble. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question to the Minister of Advanced Education and Manpower. I accept the point made by the minister, but would point out that unless changes are made very quickly there will in fact be no changes for two academic years. My supplementary question to the minister is: since the visit — that's a word we've been using here quite often — to the Legislature grounds by the students, what changes have been made in the student assistance program, if any? MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, I think I should point out that there have been no major overhauls.

I think it would be inappropriate to do that, in view of the fact that we have asked for extensive public review and representation, which went into the task force report, and likewise with respect to responses to the recommendations. I think I should point out that [from] my review of the Students Finance Board and its operations, the policies we have in effect in Alberta at the present time are by far the most generous of any province in Canada.

I would also point out to hon. members of this Assembly that in every other province there are the same requirements as to eligibility with respect to the age of majority as are in effect in Alberta. It relates to the Canada student loan program as well. Whether or not we are prepared to vacate the contribution received under the Canadian plan is a very real concern in addressing this particular problem. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, just one last supplemen­ tary question to the minister.

Why has the minister not given the University of Alberta Students' Union and the Federation of Alberta Students a date for a meeting to discuss a number of these proposed changes in student assistance, despite several requests for a meet­ ing from the two groups? MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, I have met with stu­ dents' council representatives at the University of Alber­ ta and with the Federation of Alberta Students, at my request.

Indeed, in my visits to the 21 institutions prior to the opening of this session in May, I met with representatives of every students' council group within the system of advanced education. On each of those occasions we discussed this very question. I advised the groups involved that when I was prepared to make recommendations to my colleagues in cabinet and cau­ cus and to this Assembly, I would be able to meet with them again.

Within the relatively short period during which the House has been in session, I have not had the opportunity to finalize or formulate the policy recom­ mendations in an appropriate form to make to my colleagues. I wish to point out, Mr. Speaker, that as soon as that is done I will be holding meetings with the groups in question. During my term as Minister of Advanced Education and Manpower, I look forward to open communication with all student groups in the prov­ ince of Alberta. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, will the minister indi­ cate to the Assembly that he will meet with students

June 28, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 611 from the Federation of Alberta Students and representa­ tives from the University of Alberta Students' Union prior to making recommendations to his colleagues in caucus and cabinet and to the Assembly? MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, not necessarily. I think indeed it would be appropriate to discuss the proposals with my colleagues before doing so with the groups in question. But I certainly intend to meet with them at the earliest opportunity.

To me it would seem inap­ propriate to go into meetings with the groups in question without having received policy endorsement of any proposals from members supporting the gov­ ernment side of this House. Student Quotas MR. HIEBERT: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion to the hon. Minister of Advanced Education and Manpower. Since the minister did visit the various universities in Alberta, could he advise the House if any new quotas will be imposed in certain faculties? MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, the question of quotas is a matter for determination by the institutions. The hon.

Leader of the Opposition and I had a discussion on that subject during the estimates of the department. To my knowledge, no new quotas are planned by any of the institutions. I should point out that in my visits to the 21 various institutions prior to the opening of the session, and to two private colleges since the ses­ sion commenced, my meetings with the students have been very favorable. Indeed, I would suggest we have established good lines of communication. With regard to the subject of quotas, that was not raised by student groups in any significant way.

I should point out that in addition to the universities there are technical institutions, vocational institutions, and public and private colleges which will be affected by the decisions with respect to student finances. Students' Financial Aid (continued) MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion to the minister. The minister's responses remind me of an old phrase coined by the Premier in 1970 . . . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Question. MR. R. SPEAKER: . . . about party over people. MR. R. CLARK: Well done. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr.

Speaker, my question to the minister is: will the changes be made so that the 1979-80 student body has access to those changes and will benefit therefrom? MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, I certainly appreciate the intent of the question; that is, to help me clarify the position I've already stated on many occasions. If we are going to make the changes effective for the coming school year, which will commence in early September, it will be necessary to have those changes brought in at a very early date.

I'm working in a very tight time frame, and I appreciate the opportunity given to me by the Member for Little Bow to clarify that position. If we're not able to put any changes into place within a very short period of time, I will advise student organizations, universities, and anyone else interested that we will not be proceeding, and end the uncertain­ ty, which is there. But certainly I have not yet been able to finalize a position within the month available to review these various recommendations. Annexation Hearings MR. R. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct the second question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs. It's a follow-up from yesterday, on the Local Authori­ ties Board hearings as far as the city of Edmonton is concerned. Is the minister in a position to indicate to the Assembly what decision has been made with regard to individuals who feel they will be affected by the pro­ posed annexation by the city of Edmonton? What ar­ rangements will be made for individuals to make their representations before the Local Authorities Board? MR. MOORE: Mr.

Speaker, I think I indicated yester­ day that no decisions have been made with regard to that matter. That will be discussed with the chairman of the panel which will hear the Edmonton applica­ tion, and I would not want to prejudge the outcome of those discussions. MR. R. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion to the minister. I raise the question in light of annexation hearings held in Red Deer, where individ­ uals whose land wasn't being annexed but was adja­ cent to land proposed to be annexed to the city of Red Deer were not permitted an opportunity to appear be­ fore the board.

So I ask the minister if he'll take that matter into consideration in his discussions with the chairman of the panel that will hear the Edmonton annexation thing, and urge the chairman to make it possible for individuals who will be adjacent to land affected or feel they will be indirectly affected to be able at least to make their presentations to the Local Au­ thorities Board panel. MR. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, it's reasonable that matters of that nature be taken under consideration by the chairman, and that will be done. Hazardous Wastes — Proposed Plant MR. NOTLEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I'd like to direct this question to the hon. Minister of Environ­ ment and ask whether the department has done a review of the hazardous waste treatment and disposal plant proposed for Fort Saskatchewan; a plant, as I understand it, that will not only utilize the hazardous waste in the Fort Saskatchewan area but will in fact look after the problem for the entire area of western Canada, as well as possibly part of the United States. MR. COOKSON: Mr.

Speaker, that particular plant was raised at the recent conference held by environment ministers in British Columbia, and expression was made by Alberta Environment with regard to the kind of support Alberta might receive in funding and con­ structing such a plant. Naturally no settlement was made at that time. These discussions are continuing.

612 ALBERTA HANSARD June 28, 1979 MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. minister. In view of the fact that, as I understand it, the environmental impact assessment is virtually complete and a land assembly program is being executed, is the minister in a position to outline to the Assembly what steps the department proposes to take, if any, to permit some form of public input before the plant is constructed, particularly by people in the Fort Saskatchewan area? MR. COOKSON: Mr.

Speaker, one of the things I flagged at the time we discussed the proposal put forth by Alberta several years ago was the concern that if it became broader than within the confines of Alber­ ta, we address ourselves to the concern that might be expressed about movement of hazardous chemicals across borders and into Alberta. As I say, I placed that before the group across Canada and pointed out that the province was prepared to assist in the construction of such a plant.

It seems reasonable then to assume that if such a project is proceeded with we will certainly make it possible for the people in the general area to have input into its construction. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. minister. In asking the question, I point out again that the land assembly for this project is virtually complete, as is the environmental impact as­ sessment. That being the case, can the hon. minister be a little more specific in answering the question of the form public input might take?

Would the government be prepared to ask the Environment Council of Alberta to conduct the hearings? MR. COOKSON: Mr. Speaker, I take note of the submission of that route by the Member for Spirit River-Fairview. We could probably go other routes with regard to hearings and presentations, but at this time I would say this is really at the proposal stage. I think we have to address ourselves to a lot of issues out there, and certainly it will be my responsibility to undertake public input into such a plant. MR. NOTLEY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question to either the Minister of Economic Development or the Minister of Transportation. What studies is the gov­ ernment taking with respect to the specific problems of transportation of hazardous chemicals from all over western Canada to such a waste disposal plant? It's my understanding that this plant will service everything from Ontario west, and could at some point even serv­ ice the disposal of hazardous wastes from parts of the northern United States. DR. HORNER: Mr.

Speaker, I think that has to be looked at in the same context as other hazardous ma­ terials, whether they're coming or going, for disposal or for use. As I said earlier in the session, I hope to file with the Legislature a paper relative to what has been done and that ongoing situation. I have already contacted the federal government rela­ tive to their position on the former Bill, which I think also deals with that matter. We expect to hear from them in the next few weeks on the position of the new government and how soon they might move ahead with that legislation. MR. NOTLEY: Mr.

Speaker, a further supplementary question either to the hon. Minister of Economic De­ velopment or the hon. Minister of Energy and Natural Resources. In view of the land assembly taking place by the promoter — Kinetic Contaminants Canada Ltd. is my understanding of the firm's name — is it the position of the government of Alberta at this stage to encourage the location of this type of hazardous waste disposal plant in the Fort Saskatchewan area with a mandate somewhat larger than the hazardous waste in Fort Saskatchewan; indeed, one that would look after the needs of a large part of Canada? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr.

Speaker, perhaps the hon. member could confirm. Did he mean to direct that question to the Minister of Environment? He said the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources, but I pre­ sume he meant the Minister of Environment. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, the question was to either the Minister of Economic Development or the hon. Minister of Energy and Natural Resources. But per­ haps I could direct it to the hon. Premier, and he could direct it to whichever minister is in a position to answer. MR. LOUGHEED: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. member is creating further confusion, if he wanted to involve the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources. Perhaps the Minister of Economic Development can respond. DR. HORNER: Certainly, Mr. Speaker, in this case it would be the Ministry of Environment, relative to the assembly of land. So I pass it on to my colleague in Environment. MR. COOKSON: Mr. Speaker, perhaps the member could rephrase his question. I've forgotten what it was. [laughter] MR. NOTLEY: Mr.

Speaker, the question is whether or not the government of Alberta is encouraging the location of this type of facility in the Fort Saskatche­ wan area, which does more than simply look after the dangerous chemicals in that location of Alberta but in fact has a broader market, if you like, of the bulk of Canada and even part of the United States. Has there been any encouragement by the government of Alber­ ta, through the Department of Environment or the Department of Economic Development, to locate that type of enterprise in the Fort Saskatchewan area? MR. COOKSON: Mr.

Speaker, I think initially Kinetic Contaminants Canada Ltd. made a proposal to Envi­ ronment, and it has been discussed by the prairie provinces. I think northern Ontario and parts of the United States were interested. One has to remember that we have to have central points for disposal of some of the more hazardous waste products, and at the present time some of our hazardous waste products are being transferred out of Alberta for disposal, in this case to the United States.

The United States has recently taken the position that they do not wish this to continue, and therefore we have initiated dialogue in our own country to see if we could arrive at some acceptable location for proper disposal of these by-product wastes at some central point. I emphasize proper disposal.

June 28, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 613 In the process of dialogue, Kinetics has arrived at a location. We think dialogue should continue with our sister provinces as to what we in Alberta can do to assist in this disposal, keeping in mind that any kind of disposal plant will be confined to the strictest disposal requirements that can be laid down. As I say, the proposal is there. There has been no commitment or final decision with regard to this par­ ticular proposal on the part of Alberta, and that dia­ logue is continuing at this time. MR. NOTLEY: Mr.

Speaker, one further supplementa­ ry question to the minister, for clarification. In view of the fact that land assembly is already taking place, did the government of Alberta give Kinetic the indication of support or at least encourage the company to reach the conclusion that the site in Fort Saskatchewan would be acceptable to the Alberta government? MR. COOKSON: I can't comment on the position of the land assembly, Mr. Speaker, but if Kinetic itself can come up with the strict requirements that will be laid down by the Alberta Department of Environment, we would certainly be prepared to look at the concept.

MR. COOK: A supplementary question for the Minis­ ter of Municipal Affairs. Could he indicate to the House whether or not the affected town of Fort Sas­ katchewan would also be involved in the approval of such a plant, and whether they would also set down restrictions and requirements? MR. SPEAKER: Is the hon. member asking whether this is the present state of the law, or is he seeking some information on an aspect of government policy? MR. NOTLEY: Check the regulations, Rollie. MR. COOK: Mr. Speaker, I might be advised to re­ phrase my question.

Would it be the intent of the government to refer such a decision to the local au­ thorities concerned, so they might have some input on the siting of such a plant? MR. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, I believe that in general the municipalities work very closely with the Depart­ ment of Environment when it comes to matters such as have been raised in the Legislature today. Indeed, there is always consultation through subdivision and the process of permits issued for developments. I don't be­ lieve a municipality has the right to refuse an applica­ tion, based on environmental considerations.

But cer­ tainly from my point of view there has always been good co-operation between the Department of Envi­ ronment and municipal authorities in that regard. Home Care for the Aged MR. ZAOZIRNY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct my question to the Minister of Social Services and Com­ munity Health. It arises from the ministerial statement this afternoon by the Minister of Housing and Public Works, relative to the pioneer home repair program. This question is specifically to do with home care.

I wonder if the minister could advise the House whether he is giving consideration to expanding the present home care program from a strict health care approach to include home help: helping with chores, storm windows, shovelling sidewalks, and whatnot, so seniors will be able to retain the use of their homes which are going to be repaired so well under the new government program? MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, when the program was introduced by my predecessor about a year or a year and a half ago, that was one of the considerations which obviously was addressed.

It was felt, and I think very properly so, that the appropriate approach in this very important area of home care was to develop a program and to do it well. Therefore the decision was made that we should begin with a particular level and, associat­ ing that with the medical needs of individuals, work through local health units and boards of health in the cities, and allow the administration, the delivery, to be on a local basis rather than through the provincial department.

I think it's important to point out that in the current fiscal year the increased budgets of the health units across the province range from between 24 and 38 per cent . . . MR. SPEAKER: With great respect, the Chair is hav­ ing increasing difficulty relating the answer to the question. MR. BOGLE: All right, Mr. Speaker, I'll attempt to come directly to the point. Through the preventive social services program, ancillary home care types of ventures like Meals on Wheels and the like may be offered. But that is not through the home care pro­ gram proper. MR. ZAOZIRNY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary.

I ap­ preciate that it is not through the home care program, and that really is my question. Is it the intention of the government to expand the program into these home help areas in the near future? MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, surely an increase of be­ tween 24 and 38 per cent in budget is a significant expansion in itself. So the key point is that we'd better ensure that what we're doing now is being done properly across the province before we look at expand­ ing into another area of home care. MR. ZAOZIRNY: A supplementary question to the minister, Mr. Speaker.

Has your department conducted any study as to the substantial savings that may result from expanding into the home help area rather than having folks forced to go into nursing homes when they choose not to? MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, there has been considerable input from the provincial senior citizens' advisory committee and the Council on Aging on the very important matter of senior citizens staying in their own homes. That matter has also been debated in this Legislature on at least one occasion that I can recall.

This government is committed to that approach, and that's one of the reasons we developed a home care program. MR. ZAOZIRNY: Mr. Speaker, in light of the minis­ ter's comment that there has been substantial input from senior citizens groups with respect to expanding

614 ALBERTA HANSARD June 28, 1979 home care into home help, can he advise what were the recommendations of these senior citizens' groups? MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, I think it goes without saying that generally the suggestions have been that the program be expanded in content. I've indicated that the key concern of my predecessor, and I share that concern, is that we ensure what we are now doing is properly implemented province-wide. That's taking place through the health units. Once we're satisfied that that goal has been accomplished, we'll seriously consider the appropriate actions to be followed. MRS.

CHICHAK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the minister. I wonder if the minister could advise whether he has any mechanism in the department to assist community groups to organize programs of home help which would be complementary to the other programs we now have insofar as the health services — in the other area of home help which the hon. Member for Calgary Forest Lawn raised. MR. BOGLE: The primary delivery route, Mr. Speaker, would be through the preventive social services pro­ gram, whose costs are shared 80 per cent by the prov­ ince and 20 per cent by the local municipality.

That's the primary avenue we would follow. We have some specific examples where we've provided direct assist­ ance to senior citizens' groups, depending on the cir­ cumstance. But generally speaking we encourage the groups to work with the municipal PSS program. MR. SPEAKER: Might this be the final supplementary by the hon. Member for Edmonton Norwood. If there's time we could come back to the topic. A considerable number of members have not yet asked their first questions. MRS. CHICHAK: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary real­ ly is . . . Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.

My intent to the minister was not a request as to whether a government-funded program was available, but the assistance of the department in organizing community groups to provide that help. MR. BOGLE: I'm sorry I misunderstood the hon. member, Mr. Speaker. The answer is yes. We do have a very small mechanism through the senior citizens' bureau in the department.

But we encourage groups who require that kind of assistance to work with the Senior Citizens' Advisory Council and the Council on Aging, because those bodies are volunteer and have provided excellent leadership and assistance to senior citizens in this province. Provincial Buildings — Cold Lake Area MR. ISLEY: Mr. Speaker, my question to the hon. Minister of Housing and Public Works relates to my concern that we improve the delivery of provincial serv­ ices to the people in the Grand Centre-Cold Lake area, both current residents and our anticipated population growth.

For some time now, there has been some discussion regarding a free-standing courthouse in the town of Grand Centre. What is the current status of that courthouse? MR. CHAMBERS: Through the department and the two corporations, Mr. Speaker, I'm responsible for con­ struction of several thousand projects going on at the present time. So obviously on any given day I cannot recall the specific status. However, the Member for Bonnyville was kind enough to give me at least a general hint of what he was going to ask me today, so I checked before I came in. The courthouse in Grand Centre is going to tender in July. MR.

ISLEY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Have plans been finalized for a treasury branch build­ ing in the same community? MR. CHAMBERS: Yes, Mr. Speaker. In fact, the treas­ ury branch in Grand Centre should also go to tender in July. The treasury branch in Cold Lake has actually been expanded to about double in size. That will go to tender approximately in September. Air Pollution — Medicine Hat MR. HYLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Environment. Mr. Minister, some six days ago you issued a stop order . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR.

HYLAND: . . . to a construction firm near Medi­ cine Hat. Mr. Speaker, my question to the minister is: has this stop order been complied with? MR. COOKSON: Mr. Speaker, I hope so. MR. HYLAND: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary ques­ tion to the minister is: does the firm have a vehicle whereby it can appeal the order? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member is asking a ques­ tion of law. Perhaps he might seek the information elsewhere. RITE System MR. MANDEVILLE: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Minister of Government Services.

Could the minister indicate whether problems are being ex­ perienced with the capacity of the RITE government telephone system, and if there is going to be an expansion of the system? MR. McCRAE: To the first part of the question, Mr. Speaker, the answer is a very decided yes I might expand by saying that that is a reflection of the buoyancy of our economy, both the increase in people coming into the province and the increase in business. The other part of it is the increase in communication between government levels. So yes, we are experienc­ ing difficulties with the system.

To the latter part of the question, yes, we are review­ ing the situation. With the representations made by you and many other members of this Assembly, we hope to come to a resolution of the difficulties we are experiencing. MR. MANDEVILLE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister indicate whether the exten­ sion will be to some of the government services? I'm

June 28, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 615 thinking of the Alberta hail and crop insurance pro­ grams and the regulatory systems we have in Stettler under Agriculture. MR. McCRAE: Mr. Speaker, my answer would be spe­ culative at this time. We have the matter under study and certainly will consider that as a representation. Justice Review MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Attorney General. It's with regard to the Kirby com­ mission report. I'd like to ask the Attorney General what actions will be taken during the summer break on the 30 recommendations that still have not been dealt with by the government.

Will we see progress by the fall session? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I'm not clear whether the hon. member is asking about 3 or 4 — Kirby 3? As I think the hon. member would agree, since the report came out in 1977 those have been the subject of a number of implemented policies based directly on the recommendations of Mr. Justice Kirby and his commis­ sioners. A number of others are still under review. The hon. member has chosen the figure of 30. That may well be right, out of well over 100 as I recall.

All I can say to him is that although since March I've had one briefing on progress, I intend to review it further over the summer and of course would be in a position to answer the question quite fully in the fall session. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the minister. Does the minister have an implementation committee or special task force within the department to implement and assess the various recommendations? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, in the case of some of the most weighty recommendations, in particular in regard to the second volume of the Kirby report, pre­ cisely that was done.

I believe at the present time the recommendations for implementation left in regard to Kirby 3 are thought by the deputy minister to be capable of implementation without a special task force, by administrative personnel within the department. The co-ordination of that is being done through the project planning division of the department rather than by a special task force. Pioneers' Repair Program MRS. CHICHAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Housing and Public Works. It re­ lates to the program the hon. minister has announced today with respect to the Alberta pioneer home repair program.

I wonder if the minister could advise us how soon the application forms will be available to senior citizens and what mechanism will be provided, particu­ larly for those senior citizens not receiving the assured income supplement, to be able to obtain the forms without too much difficulty. MR. CHAMBERS: Mr. Speaker, I know members ha­ ven't really had a chance to look at this booklet. All the information on how they go about making applica­ tion is explained in it quite carefully. Regarding timing, the brochures will go out to the various financial institutions today.

Hopefully next week senior citizens could pick up the brochure and details on applications. MRS. CHICHAK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I recognize the hon. minister's response as to the infor­ mation in the booklet. My concern is the requests we are now getting — or at least I'm getting — as to where the forms will be available and how they obtain them. Will MLAs be provided with some forms, so they can assist senior citizens who have difficulty communi­ cating for the forms? MR. CHAMBERS: Mr.

Speaker, on the back page of the booklet it says in fairly heavy print: . . . further information can be obtained by contacting. Director Alberta Pioneers' Repair Program Main Floor, Devonian Building 11156 Jasper Avenue Box 2453 EDMONTON, Alberta PHONE 427-5760 I'm serious. I think it's important — and that's why I ensured that each member received a copy of this booklet — that each member be able to direct senior citizens to contact either this branch phone number directly or any financial institutions listed in the book­ let.

They include treasury branches, normal chartered banks, and participating credit unions. MRS. CHICHAK: Mr. Speaker . . . MR. SPEAKER: We seem to be exploring a booklet which has been published, and even having it read in the Assembly. Unless this question is of a different nature, I would suggest we go on to the hon. Member for Calgary North Hill. MRS. CHICHAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is of a different nature. The hon. minister overlooked answer­ ing my question on whether MLAs can ask for a certain number of forms to have available for senior citizens who come forward. MR.

SPEAKER: With great respect, it's doubtful that that kind of communication between ministers and MLAs has to take place in the question period. Head Offices MR. OMAN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct my ques­ tion either to the hon. Premier or the Minister of Economic Development. Yesterday I think an an­ nouncement of great significance to both Calgary and Alberta was made. The Bank of Montreal indicated they were building a 57-storey tower in Calgary, which would exceed the Calgary tower in height and, more significantly, that they were moving the board chairman there.

I believe the board chairman said the business would exceed . . . MR. SPEAKER: Perhaps the hon. member has a ques­ tion for the minister. He could deal with the board chairman outside the question period.

616 ALBERTA HANSARD June 28, 1979 MR OMAN With due respect, Mr. Speaker, I think the board chairman is more important than the building. It seems obvious that . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The respect is mutual, but if the hon. member has a question, would he please ask it. MR. OMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is whether the Premier has had any conversations with the Bank of Montreal or with other large financial institutions that would indicate they're moving their head offices to Calgary or Alberta? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, both the Provincial Treasurer and I have been involved in discussions of that nature.

This of course is the first time one of the national chartered banks has decided to locate its chairman outside Toronto and Montreal. They chose a location in Alberta, of which we're particularly pleased. We have no additional information on other banks intending to follow that important course of recogni­ tion of the realities of Canada. DR. CARTER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. R. SPEAKER: A supplementary . . . MR. SPEAKER: We've exceeded the time for the ques­ tion period. If the House wishes to extend its indul­ gence to the two hon. members, we might have two further supplementaries. HON.

MEMBERS: Agreed. DR. CARTER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First, I'm pleased that the hon. member to my left, as chairman of the Calgary caucus, takes such a great interest in what's happening in my riding. I have a question on this topic to the Minister of Economic Development. With the Bank of Montreal sending its great project and its staff members to Calgary, in their statement they mentioned that . . . MR. SPEAKER: Has the hon. member a supplementary question? I've been unable to discover it in the text thus far. DR. CARTER: This is interesting 5BX.

The Bank of Montreal stated it wants to participate as a financier in major natural resource projects within the province. Has the Minister of Economic Develop­ ment had any discussions with regard to possible par­ ticipation in projects? DR. HORNER: Mr. Speaker, the specific answer would be no. We have had a great deal of discussion not only with a number of financial institutions which are moving to Alberta; indeed, more recently we had a delegation from the city of London who were also very interested in participating in the projects in the prov­ ince.

I would expect over the coming months we'll see an expansion of Alberta's becoming a financial centre for western Canada, and indeed for Canada. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question to the Premier is an update on a question I raised about a year ago with regard to head offices coming to Alberta. At that time I asked the Premier whether there was any type of formal strategy to encourage various head offices to move to Alberta. The Premier indicated there were no planned strategies; it was an informal type of arrangement. Has the intent of the government changed at this point in time? MR.

LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, I'll resist responding as the advice to my right has given me, that of course one of the keys in this is to assure the stability of government. Our approach is to create an atmosphere here that's conducive to it, rather than direct solicita­ tion with regard to head offices from other provinces. I think that is the key. I think the development by the Provincial Treasurer of our own provincial corporate tax system over the next year or so will have a signifi­ cant bearing on the important question raised by the hon. member. Students' Financial Aid (continued) MR. LOUGHEED: Mr.

Speaker, with the leave of the House I would like to respond, before the question period is over, to the

preamble by the Leader of the Opposition at the start, on which I would like to clear the record. HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, I have done some checking, and certainly I can find nothing in Hansard of March 15, 1978, or in reports of statements I made with regard to that day, or in my recollection of discus­ sion with student leaders, that put any timetable on our response to the request to review the matter of student finance. ORDERS OF THE DAY head: WRITTEN QUESTIONS 111. Mr. R.

Clark moved that an order of the Assembly do issue for a return showing: (1) dates, destinations, and purposes of all trips out­ side the province of Alberta taken by Mr. Gordon Miniely during his term as Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care. (2) names of all persons accompanying the minister on each of those trips at the expense of the government of Alberta. MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, a point of order with respect to a matter on the Order Paper. No. 111 appears as a Motion for a Return. If it were worded as a question, it would be acceptable to the government. MR.

SPEAKER: Does the Assembly agree to the mo­ tion by the hon. Deputy Government House Leader that the Motion for a Return be recast as a question? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed.

June 28, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 617 MR. SPEAKER: I must confess my complicity in allow­ ing it to go on in its present form. So ordered. MR. McCRAE: May I revert to Tabling Returns and Reports? MR. SPEAKER: Does the Assembly agree? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS (reversion) MR. McCRAE: I'd like to table a response to question No. 110. head: MOTIONS OTHER THAN GOVERNMENT MOTIONS 208. Moved by Mrs. Cripps.

Be it resolved that this Assembly recommend that the government of Alberta give consideration to review­ ing the extended flat rate calling program carried out by AGT with a view to extending the 34-mile limit of this program. MRS. CRIPPS: Mr. Speaker, it gives me a great deal of pleasure today to introduce a motion which will expand an excellent program already available to many Albertans. EFRC, extended flat rate calling, is a toll-free tele­ phone service between communities.

The first such service was implemented in 1950 between Blairmore, Bellevue, and Coleman, because the high cost of manually handling and billing calls made toll-free service for a short distance more economical. During the '50s, EAS, extended area service, was provided to communities within a 12-mile limit. With the advent of direct distance dialing in the '60s, and with higher costs, the program almost stopped. Public pressure resulted in minor rate and policy changes and resump­ tion of the program in 1967, with the mileage limits extended to 15 miles.

However, this was not sufficient for the social and economic needs of small communities more than 15 miles apart. Subsequent policy changes of major significance were therefore made in April 1973 with the introduction of EFRC, and the program was extended to communities more than 15 miles apart. The limit is now 34 miles. An area wishing to be included in EFRC must send a petition signed by at least 40 per cent of the subscri­ bers. A mail-in ballot is sent out, but the results are tabulated on the number of total subscribers, not the number of ballots sent in.

This results in unreturned ballots having a negative effect by their silence, a presumption that is unwarranted but, by the wording of the Act, a fact. Extended flat rate dialing results in a slight increase in the monthly rate. The average increase appears to be $8 for businesses and $1.25 for residences. There is an extended charge if it's to a larger centre. Places such as Winfield, Waskatenau, Robb, Lake Louise, Manyber- ries, Youngstown, and Eaglesham pay the lowest rate, or are on the first zone, under 500 phones. Their monthly charge is $5.70.

Compare that to Calmar, which has access to all the Edmonton area for $9.10; or the Calgary area, which has access to all Calgary for $7. So for an additional $1.25, they have access to over 300,000 phones. The point is, there really is very little difference between the monthly charge of the larger centres that have access to businesses and those centres that only have a community convenience. The real problem is that these places must pay long-distance charges to do any business whatsoever.

They have no access to doctors, police, machinery de­ alers, garages, and, most of the time, not even local municipal government. Of necessity they must use long distance to obtain services or information that other people take for granted and is available to them at no charge. The average long-distance bill for most farmers in my exchange is around $60. This sounds exorbitant, but I checked with the commercial depart­ ment yesterday. With these kinds of long-distance charges, I would have to come to the conclusion that these areas are subsidizing the toll-free areas.

Most of these code areas were originally set up as community telephone co-ops. When AGT became in­ volved, the boundaries remained unchanged. Ninety- seven exchanges do not have access to another ex­ change. Four of these are in my constituency: Alder Flats, Buck Lake, Winfield, and Warburg. A fifth, Evansburg, has many of my constituents in it. Many of the 97 exchanges fall within the 34-mile guidelines, but the rest have absolutely no hope of getting EFRC under the present guidelines; therefore, the request to extend the limit beyond 34 miles.

Under the present conditions, Point 3, there is "no by-passing of a viable market town in favor of a larger town or city". This is a reasonable condition, but by the same token a community should have access to a viable market town regardless of the distance incurred. Con­ sideration should be given to the shopping patterns of the community and to accessibility of local govern­ ment, police, hospitals, doctors, and businesses neces­ sary for the livelihood of that community. If the dis­ tance is more than 34 miles, all the more reason to have toll-free phone service available.

I hope that the 97 locals not presently served by EFRC will soon be able to take advantage of the service. Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this motion is to give fair and equitable telephone service to rural telephone locals which cannot at present phone their service cen­ tres without paying long-distance charges. The con­ cept of the EFRC program is commendable, but in some cases the program may have to be adapted to serve the needs of the people. MR. TOPOLNISKY: Mr. Speaker, I wish to express a few concerns relating to Motion 208.

As a matter of interest, the improvements and development reviewed by the previous speaker are certainly commendable. I want to restate that in 1973 the EFRC program ex­ tended the limit to a 30-mile range, in October 1978 the policy was revised, and the extended limit is 34 miles. In the county of Thorhild there are nine exchanges: three within one and a half miles just west of the hamlet of Egremont; two villages and a town are all under different exchanges.

The history of these many exchanges is that telephone co-ops were started during World War II, territories were set up, and the bounda­ ries of the different co-ops were registered. AGT re­ quired permission from the co-ops to amalgamate

618 ALBERTA HANSARD June 28, 1979 them. These boundaries created real problems. People went for the quickest service offered; all created the various exchanges, which today are difficulties. Each town wanted its own office and, therefore, each had its own exchange. Some communities did not want to lose their identity but today, with modern technology, these offices exist unmanned. Ten years ago cables were not able to transmit [over] long distances, as they do today, and this certainly complicated matters. I want to list three problems. Exchanges had a cal­ ling distance of 30 miles; one route, one exchange.

And exchanges had to accept extra costs. Both ex­ changes would be required to accept these costs. I hope AGT could develop a program where two large ex­ changes could replace numerous small ones. With two towns and five villages in the constitu­ ency, four of these do not have any extension to another town, in spite of the distance of seven or 15 miles between them. These communities are Redwater, Rad- way, Waskatenau, and Andrew.

In spite of delegations to AGT officials on several occasions, meetings on a local basis — one at Woodgrove sponsored by Unifarm — and another attempt by a lengthy petition, these four towns still do have have the benefits of the EFRC program. I raise this issue on an annual basis, as recorded in Hansard. Mr. Speaker, one of these obstacles has been the 30-mile limit, which included the town of Redwater. This obstacle certainly was removed in October of last year. The other obstacle is the guideline AGT im­ posed: "There will be no by-passing of a viable market centre in favor of a larger town or city".

I believe this should not be applied to Redwater and Fort Saskatche­ wan, because it is not relevant to these two towns. The town of Redwater — a young town on the move — wants to go direct to the city of Edmonton, a distance of 33 miles, where the various interests are, and certain­ ly within the present EFRC program. The village of Radway wants to go into Thorhild or Redwater, some 15 miles; the village of Waskatenau to Thorhild and/or Smoky Lake; and the village of Andrew to Willingdon and/or Lamont. Another mat­ ter of complaint came from the village of Warspite, Mr.

Speaker, where for some reason some 40 names were omitted from the 1978 telephone directory. Mr. Speaker, I hope that in the near future a new program will be developed to remove the obstacles in the way of the three villages and the town of Redwater receiving the benefits of extended flat rate calling. Perhaps the area should be changed to a county or regional basis, or in fact even a provincial basis. Mr. Speaker, I support the motion. MR. APPLEBY: Mr.

Speaker, I'm very pleased this afternoon to be able to go on record as supporting the resolution regarding extended flat rate calling here in the province of Alberta. I'd like to congratulate the hon. Member for Drayton Valley, who has brought this resolution before the Legislature. At this time, Mr. Speaker, I'd also like to say that I appreciate very much the privilege of sitting beside this very capable, industrious, and charming member of our Assembly.

I would like to give credit to the previous govern­ ment in this province for the progressive steps they took in developing the AGT program throughout the province. I very well remember the type of service we had when the old mutual telephone systems were out in the rural areas. In our particular district the only way you could get a telephone was to buy a share from somebody who already had one, because there were 19 subscribers on the line and they weren't going to put any more on. Eventually somebody died and we were able to buy a share.

We were three miles from the main line, so the mutual telephone company said to us: here are your insulators and wire, and here's a permit to go out and cut the poles. Go ahead and build your line. Very fortunately the neighbors in our district thought it would be very good to have a telephone, and they all rallied around and helped to cut the poles, peel them, haul them, and string them out. Eventually they were set into the ground with the insulators attached, and the wire was strung. [Mrs. Chichak in the Chair] Then, Mme. Speaker, we came to the point where somebody had to climb those poles.

None of us had ever climbed telephone poles before. We asked the mutual company if they could give us somebody to do this. They said, no, but here's a pair of climbing irons and a safety belt. It just happened that I was the youngest member of the group, so I was delegated to climb the poles. I very well remember the first one I tried to climb. I got halfway up, the iron slipped, and I fell back down to the ground. However, in the end the wires were strung, and we connected it to the main line. Then we attached the two 1.5 volt batteries to the telephone instrument in the house.

The neighbors were all gathered around. We brought in the lead wires, and connected one and then the other. With 19 subscribers on the line, it started to ring immediately. A great cheer went up. We had telephone service in the district. No doubt there have been a great many improve­ ments since that day, Mme. Speaker. We have seen direct distance dialing and other improvements. I think the program brought in several years ago to extend dialing into areas beyond the local exchange limits was a very progressive one.

As we all well know, we have had a fluctuation in the growth of our smaller centres in the province. Some of the smaller towns, villages, and so on, have seemed to die or fade away. Of course in recent years, through many of the very progressive — and I guess I should say aggressive as well — and helpful policies of this government, we have seen a regrowth in many of these centres. Pro­ grams such as helping these districts with their community halls, the rural gas programs, and other things, have seen a great attraction to rural living in these areas of the province.

However, throughout the years we have developed service centres where people do some of their main types of business: dental treatment, doctors, machine shops, and things like that. Not all the smaller centres have these services. Of course in order to keep in touch with these sorts of businesses, people in more distant areas have had to use the telephone. As the hon. Member for Redwater-Andrew said, it happened that very great pressure was put on these smaller communities to develop the exchange.

And when the extended area service program came in, they found it awkward to decide which exchange they wanted to be connected to. Some of the votes held were not very satisfactory, but they had to make a decision as

June 28, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 619 to which exchange they wanted to tie into. However, throughout the years it gradually has pretty well worked itself out of the system. In general, I think folks are fairly well satisfied, As the member also said, there's been an increase in rates. That was an objection at first, but they learned to live with it, and I don't think it's a problem anymore. The problem we have now — and I don't think it's really a great one, if you survey the whole province — is that a few of these smaller exchanges are still beyond the 30-mile limit which was the original extension of the system.

In my constituency I think five exchanges were tied in under the program. I have only one now, about 40 miles distant, that is remote and not tied in. What I would like to suggest this afternoon is that if we could extend it to 40 miles, we'd get the only one left in my constituency. I believe if we went to about the 40-mile limit . . . MRS. CRIPPS: I need 42. MR. APPLEBY: How far do you want to go? MRS. CRIPPS: Forty-two. MR. APPLEBY: Forty-two. Well, maybe 45 miles, then. We would probably get to the stage that none of them is outside.

Because if you get 45 miles from here, maybe you're only 45 miles from the other one. So you could get tied into one of these service centres. When we talk about this resolution this afternoon, we're ask­ ing for consideration to give a little more distant recognition in developing the program. I know more costs are going to be involved, Mr. Speaker, but I don't think people are going to be very uptight about that anymore. We live in an affluent society. They have good roads, expensive vehicles, snowmobiles, color TVs, and all these sorts of things.

An extra $2 or $3 a month on their telephone bills isn't going to worry them very much. Mr. Speaker, I'm suggesting that if we could just get that extra few miles into this program, we'd have a lot more happy people in the province of Alberta. Thank you. MR. NOTLEY: I certainly welcome the opportunity to participate in this debate and to support the resolution before the House this afternoon. I'm sure various members can cite a number of examples about their respective constituencies. I have a community called Cleardale in my constituency.

If he looks back over his correspondence, the minister was probably besieged with representations from people in that area, and properly so. The difficulty is that it is beyond the 34-mile limit. The result is that the people in question don't have access to any service centre as such and, that being the case, I think they have some sense of legiti­ mate grievance. As the Member for Athabasca has pointed out, I re­ alize there will be additional costs.

But, representing an area where people don't qualify because of the present limit, I can assure you there would be very substantial support for the extension of the principle beyond the present 34-mile restriction. Mme. Speaker, I should just add a couple of addi­ tional comments somewhat related to the extension of the 34-mile limit, and ask the minister — I presume he's going to be participating in this debate at some point, hopefully today — to give us the assurance that in fact this motion is going to be passed by the government and acted on quickly, or that AGT is going to act on it.

I would like to make representation about the prob­ lems we have in border areas, and I think it is appro­ priate under Resolution No. 1. I'll give you an ex­ ample. Bonanza is 12 or 13 miles from Dawson Creek and, to a large extent, the business of the people in Bonanza and Bay Tree is done in Dawson Creek, not­ withstanding the efforts of the town of Spirit River to shift things otherwise. The minister of highways has been so tardy in finishing Highway 49 that they can't get to Spirit River, so they go to Dawson Creek where there's a nice, paved highway.

But there is one obstacle; that is, the problem of telephone service. All the business is done in Dawson Creek. The hospital is in Dawson Creek. Even the high school students go to Dawson Creek. But it isn't possi­ ble to work out an arrangement with B.C. Telephones. Now, I realize we have a problem with B.C. Tele­ phones, because AGT is a Crown corporation and B.C. Telephones is a privately owned firm. But I imagine we would have the same general situation on the other border as far as Saskatchewan Telephones is concerned. It occurs to me that as we review this resolution, Mr. Minister and Mme.

Speaker, Alberta Government Tele­ phones should be examining the concept of extending the toll-free limit within the province. But I'd also be interested in the minister bringing us up to date on whether there have been any discussions between SASK TEL and AGT, and B.C. TEL and AGT, concerning those people along the borders who feel a certain sense of frustration, too.

Even if we extended the 34-mile limit, in the case of Bay Tree it really wouldn't amount to too much, because I must confess that even if the minister of highways gets around to finishing Highway 49 someday, I suspect the balance of the business is still going to be directed to the city of Dawson Creek. I would just underscore that there are more problems in the case of B.C., because it's pretty hard to tell a privately owned company — perhaps you can work out an agreement with another government, but it's more difficult where you're talking about a private concern. Nevertheless, Mr.

Minister, it seems to me that that area would be consistent with the spirit of this resolu­ tion, notwithstanding the fact that costs are involved. I remember receiving several letters on different occa­ sions from the former minister, Dr. Warrack, who always cited the costs but held out the hope that when we completed the present program we would move beyond the 34-mile limit. We're almost at that stage, as I recollect anyway. That being the case, Mme. Speaker, Resolution No. 1 has merit and I certainly support it. MR. MANDEVILLE: Mme.

Speaker, I too appreciate the opportunity to speak very briefly on this motion and to indicate that I'm going to support it. I think it's a good step in the right direction, and I hope it will be supported. Mme. Speaker, I have an example in my own con­ stituency: an area that's within the 34 miles, but we've been toying, fighting, and taking every measure we could to get this area into the extended flat rate program. However, we're not able to do that. The problem we're facing is that when you take the vote, the people who want in have to vote, and also have to

620 ALBERTA HANSARD June 28, 1979 be accepted. As the mover indicated, 40 per cent of the subscribers have to vote. We run into the problem of getting enough people interested enough to support extension of the flat rate. Bassano is the area I have problems with. In Brooks you can phone anywhere for 34 miles, and there are no problems. But if Duchess, Rosemary, and Patricia want to phone Bassano, it is long distance. So we're certain­ ly having a problem, and I look forward to getting them into the flat-rate program.

I hope the minister is going to give me some assistance when I get things in gear and get this on the road. I would like to bring just one area to the minister's attention, Mme. Speaker, and I'm certain it's been brought to his attention on many occasions. When we first started the flat-rate extension program, they put in private lines to many rural people. When they got the lines to the subscribers, a change was made by our previous minister. For example, in a rural area, if he sells his farm or changes the phone number with a renter on the farm, he has to pay $100 to make the application.

That's the initial charge. Then if they want to retain it as a private line, they have to pay $100 a mile to get it changed. After that, they have to pay $1 per mile per month to keep this private line. It's an area that causes much confusion. A farmer or someone in a rural area will sell his property with the impres­ sion or the understanding that he has a private line. But when they go to change the line, the person who purchases the farm and takes over the contract has to pay for the installation of this private line. It causes a lot of confusion. I would certainly like the minister to look at this.

I know he's had many complaints in this area; I get many of them every time there's a change of a tele­ phone on a private line. You have someone phone you, and they're not aware of it. I'm sure the minister has had this complaint brought to him on many occasions. With those few remarks, Mme. Speaker, I am prepared to support the resolution. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mme. Speaker, I certainly support the arguments for the resolution with regard to the private telephone in rural areas, specifically with re­ gard to boundaries and that the 34-mile limit be ex­ tended.

Certainly the cost factor is one of the control­ ling agents that the minister must make some kind of judgment on. I'd like to put on the record for the information of the minister — and I'm sure his departmental officials will be reviewing this debate — one area that is under review in my constituency at the present time. Cost assessments have been done, and hopefully we're going to cure the problem which exists. I'm sure the problem exists in other areas, because communities of interest of the citizens of Alberta certainly have shifted over the last 10 to 15 years.

For example, I can tell you of one area, between the Lomond and Enchant areas. A number of people who earlier had an interest in the Lomond area now are shifting their interest to the Enchant area. Their chil­ dren go to school in that area, they buy their groceries in that area, and their recreation is in that area. There are four or five families along the boundary line that separates these two different telephone systems.

Each time they phone to their community of interest they have to pay a long-distance fee, which certainly is very upsetting to them when someone just across the road within 200 yards phones without any toll charge. As I've indicated, we have raised this matter with the department, departmental officials have been in the area, and a cost assessment has been done. In order to make this change, if I recall correctly, the charge is going to be something like $2,500 per family.

The question I would like to raise with the minister for consideration — we haven't got to this point of negotiation yet — is: will the local people or the government pick up the cost for that change of the residents from one exchange area to another? I'd rec­ ommend that the government accept that cost. The other areas of concern are the Turin area and a small community called Sundial, a general area in the Vauxhall exchange.

None of the people in this partic­ ular area have a community of interest in the Vauxhall area; their community of interest is across the Little Bow River, toward Picture Butte and Lethbridge. But at present, to phone their local town of Turin they have to phone long distance through Vauxhall, Taber, around Lethbridge and back into the Turin area. Their phone bills are quite excessive. We've had this assessed, and to make the change I think the cost is around $1,500 per family. Again I make representation to the minister that the department consider picking up this cost to accommodate these particular people.

Looking at this concern in general, I'd say to the minister that the first priority should be rearrangement of the boundaries between the various EFRC areas, so that people can be accommodated and can phone to their community of interest with a flat-rate charge. Following that, if we're able to extend the 34-mile limit, maybe that should be the next priority. But I see the first one accommodating many people at the pre­ sent time. DR. REID: Mme. Speaker, the hon. Member for Atha­ basca and I share many interests in hair styles, but unfortunately we don't share neighbors in the Legislature.

I note that this motion was introduced by one of the fairer sex. I don't know that that has any particular significance, but it would behoove us as politicians to also take advantage of any extension as we probably do more talking than anybody else in this province. The hon. Member for Drayton Valley has introduced a motion that I'm sure all rural members will want to speak to and approve of; it's a motherhood issue in many ways. Therefore I'll keep my remarks rather brief. I would like to address two particular concerns in this debate.

The population pattern in this province outside the two large cities has not developed in a homogeneous manner by any means. The size of communities and the distances between them is extremely variable. As a re­ sult, the distances between telephone exchanges are equally variable. In the constituency I have the honor to represent, we have exchanges as close together as 12 miles and as far apart as 93 miles. The latter distance, between Brule and Grande Cache, is somewhat of an exception, but I'm sure the members for Peace River and Lac La Biche-McMurray can outdo me in that regard by some considerable margin.

As a result of the very varied areas of the exchanges, the application of the present rigid 32-mile limit to EFRC results in some people being able to cross two or three exchange boundaries and other people not even being able to call their neighboring town. We also

June 28, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 621 get some rather odd anomalies. I have one in my own constituency, where people who live 15 miles from Hinton, at Obed, are attached to an exchange at Marlboro, which is 35 miles from Hinton. They can talk to Edson, which is 40 miles away, without a long-distance charge, but they can't talk to Hinton, 15 miles away.

My second concern, apart from the pure distance factor because of the distribution of population, is that there have developed in this province, for historical, geographic, and transportation reasons, what we can call regional distribution centres or commercial cen­ tres. To get out of my own constituency, we could mention Peace River or Camrose. People have to be able to converse with those centres. It's a matter of necessity, not social convenience like a lot of telephone calls.

These necessary commercial calls are a considera­ ble percentage of the long-distance telephone calls made by many people in rural Alberta. To get back to my own constituency, if you live in Grande Cache and have a General Motors automobile, you have a dealer in Grande Cache. For any other make of automobile you have to call Hinton or Edmonton. Hinton happens to be the next community down the road, but it's 93 miles away.

Jasper, because of its peculiar involvement with the federal department of na­ tional parks, and because of the policies of Parks Canada, has very limited commercial enterprise within the community. Therefore they of necessity make a very large number of calls to Hinton or Edson for what in the city would be regarded as neighborhood essential services, but to them are anything but neighborhood. Mme. Speaker, as may have become obvious from my remarks, I'm not suggesting just an increase in the limits of EFRC. Other speakers have done that very adequately.

What I'm addressing in particular is the possibility of looking at a regional approach to the program, paying due regard to these specific concerns. In modern society the telephone has become a neces­ sity. It's become almost a utility in its necessity as well being legally a utility. While I'm not asking for a Utopian equality of costs for the rural as opposed to the urban subscriber, I feel there's considerable room for improvement in the program based on a regional type of approach.

Many programs have been introduced by this gov­ ernment to encourage the development of rural Alberta and to reverse the drift to the cities. If the minister can address some of the concerns that I and other people have brought up during this debate, he could add to those programs by this particular approach to the provision of telephone service in rural Alberta. Thank you. MR. BORSTAD: Mme. Speaker, I strongly support the resolution put forward by the hon. Member for Drayton Valley, as I think the problem bothers most rural communities throughout the province.

But I also re­ alize there is a problem in establishing guidelines and regulations which will satisfy everyone. You're always going to run into areas that can't be serviced. The system first started, with a 12-mile limit and went to 15, 30, and 34 miles, as it is today. We should look more at spheres of influence or trading centre areas, as used in the economic development of this province. In some areas you might be able to call within a 30-mile limit; in other areas you might need 50 miles to get to the trading area you're dealing with.

I believe this affects the newer areas of the province and those experiencing growth. In my area the vil­ lage of Hythe is just three miles outside that limit, yet their service centre is Grande Prairie. Several other centres in my constituency have been petitioning for service for a number of years.

A request for toll-free dialing between the village of Hythe, the village of Demmitt, and the surrounding areas, and the city of Grande Prairie, which is considered their major trad­ ing area, has been brought to the attention of the Northern Alberta Development Council on several oc­ casions: first in a brief presented to a public meeting in Hythe, in March 1977, again in Hythe in '78, at Sexsmith in '78, and again in Beaverlodge this May. As I mentioned before, the village of Hythe is just outside the 3-mile limit.

In the council's communications with AGT in 1977 and '78, they were advised that they were engaged in an overall review and evaluation of the extended flat rate program. Since that time, however, there has been no extension of flat-rate service. Village merchants have their source of supply in Grande Prairie. The telephone lines in the area are inadequate, and the circuits are often not available for peak periods. Grande Prairie has a large trading area, and the extension of that service would be of major benefit to the total constituency or county.

While I am speaking, I would like to mention the RITE number, which maybe has no connection with this particular subject. It is continually plugged, and you cannot get on it. I think that's another item that should be looked at. In closing, I would like to support Motion 208 strongly, and recommend that AGT look at servicing growth centres or spheres of influence, rather than mileage. Thank you. MR. HYLAND: Mme. Speaker, as I rise to take

part in this debate, I wish to commend the hon. Member for Drayton Valley for bringing forward Motion 208. I agree with many of the previous speakers who have suggested we need flexibility in the guidelines with reference to toll-free dialing. We need it so that we're dealing with a shopping and trading area. I'm sure we have all found that certain businesses have moved out of some towns and villages, and there are no businesses left to phone or contact in these areas. Thus it would be much better if we could be phoning a service centre. Mme.

Speaker, we've heard a number of examples of areas where there are particular problems with mi­ leage, and my constituency is no different. I have one case where extended calling is to be put into one town in the near future, but the major service centre is 1 mile beyond the limit. As the rules say 34 miles, and the town is 35, under the existing rules it is impossible to put dialing into the major service centre in the area. I suggest that we be more flexible with these guidelines and look toward service centres more than toward distances.

I have another case where they would have to go some 44 miles to their service centre. The only advan­ tage of hooking them up to the adjacent town, which hopefully will be hooked up to the service centre in the future, is that it gets them 10 miles further down the

622 ALBERTA HANSARD June 28, 1979 road and only allows them access to one business. Mme. Speaker, we have heard some stories about the old telephone lines. But I'm sure the old lines and telephones were an institution in themselves, because in those days it seemed all the neighbors knew what everybody else was doing. All you needed to do was pick up the phone, listen for a while, and you knew everything that was going on in the neighborhood. With the newer phones, we're getting away from that institution that existed in rural areas for many years. In summation, Mme.

Speaker, I would again like to urge the minister to consider using trading area in­ volvement more than distance as a guideline to the boundaries on toll-free dialing. MR. STROMBERG: Mme. Speaker, I have a little arti­ cle from the weekly Alberta Business. It reads: Provincially-owned Alberta Government Tele­ phones posted a 1978 net profit of $15.9 million, 310 per cent higher than I977's $3.9 million. Swollen by heavy long distance traffic and new phone installations . . . . And it goes on about the profits.

Bearing in mind that I'll have a hard time explaining the next AGT rate increase application to my constituents, Mme. Speaker, with due regard and respect, I think that if we could train our wives to quit phoning their mothers and vice versa, AGT might be facing a deficit. I recall that several years ago the Camrose Chamber of Commerce, which I was involved in, led a delega­ tion from the community of Bawlf that wanted to get an extension to Camrose. We met with the minister, Raymond Reierson, who set out the guidelines and indicated to us that it was 10 or 11 miles, period.

The town of Bawlf happened to be half a mile outside that radius, and no way was he giving them flat-fee privi­ leges. So I offered the minister that if we moved the town of Bawlf half a mile closer to Camrose, would he be a little more receptive? Of course his answer was negative. I became a Conservative that day and decided to enter public life. Mme. Speaker, I realize that in Alberta we probably have the best telephone service in the world. It's expen­ sive. Perhaps we could offer some alternatives to our people in rural Alberta and to the minister's office.

For instance, a subscriber should have the opportunity to have two out of three services: medical, county seat or local government, or his business. If two of those three are not met, I think he should be brought into the area. Perhaps we could look at growth centres, as the Member for Grande Prairie indicated. But, to the minis­ ter: why not a flat rate for the several areas of Alberta — for the northeast, the southeast, central Alberta, the Edmonton area, the Red Deer area, the Calgary area — and try to work out a more equitable means that way?

I find it a little discouraging that we have busi­ nesses that have been financed through the AOC and encouraged by this government to come out of the larger centres and locate in rural Alberta. When they start up their business in Camrose, Mme. Speaker, they find out that perhaps three-quarters of their customers are in the city of Edmonton. So they're running a phone bill of approximately $2,000 a month. If they locate their business at Redwater or Devon, that's the profit and loss picture to them at the end of the year.

So they're forced to come back within a 30-mile radius of Edmonton to get toll-free service. I must congratulate the Member for Drayton Valley. By the tone of the discussion here, I think it's our number one problem. It certainly has been my number one problem in my seven years in this Legislature. I would urge all members to support this resolution. Thank you. MR. FJORDBOTTEN: Mme. Speaker, I also appreci­ ate this opportunity to rise and join this debate. I commend the hon. Member for Drayton Valley for submitting it.

When I look at the opportunity to extend the bound­ ary lines, one thing that comes to mind is, where do you draw the line? We've had some debate here already. Is it 40 miles or 42, or should it be 100, or could it be 500 miles? The first thing you know, we want it across Canada. I see a concern there. I don't think it's a problem that can't be solved. I would like to suggest to the minister and to the House a couple of things that could be looked at. Number one, I think the choice should be given to people who live on a boundary line of which commu­ nity they want to be tied into.

In particular, I bring up one that happened lately. These people live between Barons and Claresholm. They're on the Barons ex­ change. When the telephone was put in, they didn't want to be on the Barons exchange. They both joined in the same way, and it was the same number of miles to hook in either way. But since someone had sat down and drawn the boundary line, there was no way they could change it. Now, Barons doesn't really have any implement dealers, it doesn't have a hospital, a high school. The children of these people go to school in Claresholm, and all their business is there.

You know what it's like when you have teen-age children going to school, and the number of times they're on the telephone. You can imagine what his long distance bill is. He wasn't listened to, because they had to draw a line. Consequently he offered to pay for it, but even that wouldn't work. So I would suggest that when you come to a boundary line, instead of having the boundaries set, they should have the option to join either way. I know hon. members from both sides of the House all agree that this has to be looked at. I join in this, and look forward to action forthcoming. Thank you. MR.

NOTLEY: Just say yes, Neil. DR. WEBBER: Mme. Speaker, I'm very pleased to have the opportunity to make a few remarks on this very important motion that the Member for Drayton Valley has brought to us today. I must congratulate the member for bringing it to the Legislature. Also, I think we've had some excellent debate on this topic, some very good remarks by all hon. members. Certain­ ly I've heard some of the specific issues brought up this afternoon, and will be reviewing them. I imagine there will be more to come in the future.

I think it's generally agreed that the implementa­ tion many years ago of EAS, the extended area service program, was good. It's proven to be of great benefit to Albertans. I think the extension of that program, the extended flat rate calling program introduced in 1973, has been of particular benefit in terms of our govern­ ment's policy of enhancing growth in the smaller

June 28, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 623 centres of Alberta. I think it's increased the quality of life and certainly has improved the economic frame­ work in rural Alberta. The historical review we've had has also been excel­ lent. Starting with the 12-mile range, going to 15 miles, going to 30 miles, going to 34 miles, we've heard 40 miles and 42 miles today. It almost sounds like an auctioneer calling for bids. However, with the ex­ tensions over the years, I think we have certainly seen many improvements in the service provided.

As a result of a review of the program last year, some 20-odd new exchanges will be getting extended flat rate calling through 1980 and 1981. Listening to the debate, Mme. Speaker, it struck me that there was some confusion with regard to the bal­ loting procedure to determine whether people in an exchange want extended flat rate calling. I'd like to refer members to a decision of the Public Utilities Board dated November 17, 1978. It was the AGT in­ terim decision re balloting procedures in connection with EFRC.

In particular, I believe the Member for Drayton Valley and the Member for Bow Valley made some comments that were in error with regard to the balloting procedure. One particular comment was that they needed the majority of the subscribers in the area before EFRC would be granted. In fact, the change has been to have a majority of the ballots returned, which I think is a considerable improvement. I would like to make a number of other comments, which there is not time for. I think I should make a comment about the costing of this particular service, which has been raised several times.

Certainly I think all of us would like to see extended flat rate calling throughout the province. That would be great. How­ ever, somebody's got to pay for the service. Suppose we did have extended flat rate calling across the province. I'd like to give a few figures that might relate to the total cost. The costs to provide such service are estimated to be approximately $1 billion. Intra-Alberta toll losses, using a 1979 estimate, would be about $150 million. To pay for this capital expenditure and recover the toll losses would require a monthly rental fee of approxi­ mately $60 per AGT customer. Certainly, Mme.

Speaker, the extreme would be to have province-wide extended flat rate calling. It is expensive; on the other hand it may be worth the expense. However, in view of the fact that the Public Utilities Board regulates AGT, I think they're certainly going to have something to say about it. In fact in the decision I referred to earlier, they indicate that during phase two of the 1975 rate application they would review the EFRC service and its effects on the revenues and costs of AGT.

A number of other questions have been raised, such as boundary problems with regard to exchanges, northwestern Alberta, B.C./Alberta, and Saskatchewan/ Alberta. Contracts have been made between the tele­ phone companies of these two provinces where EFRC does in fact extend over certain areas. The Member for Grande Prairie has in the past raised a particular problem with the Bonanza exchange in his area. We're looking at that particular problem now and hope to resolve something on that. In closing, Mme. Speaker, I just want to say how much I appreciate listening to the debate today and hearing the representations.

Certainly I can see I have some work cut out for me in the next few months. Thank you. MME. SPEAKER: If there is no other speaker, are you ready for the question? DR. WEBBER: Mme. Speaker, in view of the fact that I have some other remarks, I beg leave to adjourn debate. HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. head: PUBLIC BILLS AND ORDERS OTHER THAN GOVERNMENT BILLS AND ORDERS (Second Reading) Bill 201 The Alberta Family Institute Act [Adjourned debate June 21: Mr. D. Anderson] MR. D. ANDERSON: Mme. Speaker, when I adjourned debate last week on The Alberta Family Institute Act, I attempted to answer three basic questions.

I would like briefly to recap that discussion so I can lead into today's remarks with some continuity. The first question I asked last week was, are there problems with respect to the family unit in Alberta? I cited a number of statistics and trends that indicated a disturbing and alarming move toward difficulties faced by our family unit. I think there was conclusive evidence to show that indeed there is a problem with the family unit in Alberta and, in particular, problems with family members. The second question was, what programs exist to deal with family difficulties?

I went over a variety of organizations — universities and colleges to study the problem, and agencies such as family planning groups to help deal with the problem. In that respect, I admitted that indeed a significant number of people are attempting to do something about the growing problems faced by the family in the province of Alberta. [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] I adjourned my remarks during my attempt to an­ swer the third question: why should we consider The Alberta Family Institute Act one way of dealing with the difficulties outlined previously?

I started to answer that, indicating first of all that this Legislative As­ sembly and other public bodies in the province of Alberta still make decisions with respect to the family unit without having a firm and coherent idea of the impact those pieces of legislation and programs will have on the family unit and its membership. The second point I made last week was that we have no particular group in this province to move into a given community and assess the impact of growth or changes in that area on the family unit or on individu­ al family members.

I believe I cited examples such as Fort McMurray and the kind of preliminary work we could have done with respect to planning and dealing with potential problems in that area. What would the Alberta family institute do that is

624 ALBERTA HANSARD June 28, 1979 not already being done by agencies throughout this province? I believe this organization would have three basic functions. The first would be to compile all presently existing data from organizations such as the Vanier Institute, the universities, and various agencies in this province in such a way as to be able to advise this Assembly and other public bodies in the province of Alberta what the impact of given pieces of legisla­ tion would be on the public of Alberta, specifically the membership of families.

They would not do research that other organizations have already compiled, but rather would direct that and put it in a central place so we could recall it. The second and perhaps major function of the Alber­ ta family institute would be to fund research in communities, where we can deal with specific family problems. In outlining the problem last week I gave some examples that in fact relate to the answer. We would move into small towns and take a look at their requests, the existing problems, and ways we could solve those problems and deal with the difficulties.

The third function of the Alberta family institute, which I did not significantly deal with last week, would be to deal specifically with large and, if possi­ ble, small companies and groups of employees in the province of Alberta. The company may want to develop programs that would hold the family closer together. I'm thinking in terms of day care centres located in large industrial developments for working single parents, or recreational activities that would keep the family together; assist that company in designing those programs.

In addition, that part of the institute may well look at counselling problems that companies have and specifically advise them on how to deal with problems that come up in relation to specific members of the family unit. Surely, a positive family unit would lead to more stable and productive employees. That would be the aim of that part of the institute. Let me make clear that it's not my belief that the institute should at any time deal with projections, al­ ternative life styles, or other theoretical research already completed in this country.

We adequately have those facilities, though they may not be compiled in a manner that we can deal with. It has to be an action- oriented organization, which will lead us to conclu­ sions with respect to problems and define specific programs to deal with the very significant difficulties we are now encountering. Basically, we have enough theory. We must have a group now to tell us how to put programs into practice. How would the institute operate? A number of sec­ tions in the Bill allude to how that would take place.

There would be a group of seven trustees, the majority of whom would be citizens, not professional sociolo­ gists, who would make sure the institute stays down to earth and deals with the day to day problems facing the family in the province of Alberta. One trustee would be a member of the Legislative Assembly, so that at all times we would have a direct tie to what is taking place and direct access to the advice of that particular group and the research they fund in order to make our decisions with respect to the family unit. The research done by the institute would be on a contract basis.

I do not believe we should attempt to develop any further the large bureaucracy or group of civil servants or agency employees that are attached to government, but rather fund the research on an indi­ vidual basis, leaving a small staff to compile, direct, and assess what is taking place. A component in the funding formula associated with the institute would allow us to take donations from corporations.

I would hope that when we deal with major corporations and their problems associated with the family unit, we might be able to persuade them to contribute to the research, which would assist their employees to become more productive and effective and have happier lives, and therefore add to the company itself. The funding for the institute in general would be debated once we approved the institute in principle. A number of figures have been attributed to me, one of them very large. I would just say that is a point for discussion.

We should consider, though, that if we're going to deal significantly with the problems facing the family and our developing communities, we have to be ready to look at the Heritage Savings Trust Fund in terms of how its investments could help our future and whether or not the family unit should in fact be an important part of that investment formula. We will soon put $300 million into medical research. Per­ haps it's not too far off base to suggest that 5 or 10 per cent of that could form an endowment fund to look at the problems facing the family unit in the province of Alberta.

I've been very gratified with the response I have received to date, by and large unsolicited. Since the Bill was introduced on June 1, Mr. Speaker, I've received between three and five letters a day from individuals across the province with respect to this Act. I'd like to give a brief indication of the kinds of statements being made in the letters. A Calgary housewife writes in part: We guard and invest in petroleum, we clean up the spills of disasters, but what do we do with respect to the family unit? Welfare agencies, lawyers, and doctors help cope with the aftermath of such things.

Why not guard and invest in our Alberta family unit as a base for a stable future for Alberta? Bill 201, The Family Institute Act, is before the Legislature. This Bill is a step in the right direction. A psychologist from Edmonton writes: I was very pleased to hear your opinions regarding the state of marriage in Alberta. I am also excited by your present attempts to organize funding to establish a me­ chanism to research and eventually deal with this prob­ lem. I am writing to offer whatever help I can.

Any attempt to study the state of marriage in Alberta not only would be of great benefit to Albertans but would shed a good deal of light on a very prevalent and disturbing North American phenomenon. A worker in a major social service department in one of the Alberta cities writes: I am daily involved in building up the strength of the family whose young people are in trouble with the law. I have worked in this department for 15 years and offer any assistance I can give. Another one, from a businessman in Edmon­ ton: Congratulations on your efforts to investigate the trend away from the traditional family unit.

This hear­ tbreaking, alarming, and costly trend must be reversed. These letters go on to a great extent, all but one very much in favor of the general concept, and some indicating some very far-sighted suggestions on ways this Bill could be improved and added to. I hope we can get into that kind of discussion should the Bill reach committee stage. In designing this Bill, Mr. Speaker, I had discus­

June 28, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 625 sions with people across the province. I discussed it with the vice-president of the Vanier Institute in Otta­ wa. She assured me that that institute would be very happy to have a complementary organization here which would deal with specifics and could take their very general research and apply it in this province.

I've discussed it with the mayor of Edmonton, who recently funded a study into it — we've indicated that we'd have further discussions — and he made a number of very helpful suggestions; with aldermen in the city of Calgary; with the PSS director in Bonnyville, Alberta; with ministers of this government and at least two MPs in the province of Alberta; with businessmen, because I wanted to get that kind of response; and with general citizens.

I'm happy to say that generally those people feel there is a need and, though there is variance on how we should go about doing it and there have been suggestions on how the Bill can be improved and questions as to exactly what the institute would do, generally there has been acceptance of the philosophy behind this piece of legislation. I'm now writing to all groups I can find out about who somehow deal with the family in the province of Alberta, either in terms of research or direct counsel­ ling on family problems, and asking for their input with respect to this Bill. Mr.

Speaker, I hope that as we go through the various stages I'll be able to relay to this Assembly the information I obtain from those efforts. In closing, I would like to say that statistics and trends indicate that we do have a crisis situation. While you can never be sure what statistics mean, no practi­ tioner and in fact no legislator I've yet run across in this province will not agree that we have a very defi­ nite problem. We must now look to the solution.

I suggest that we all look at the Alberta Family Insti­ tute Bill, assess it carefully, discuss additions and changes that might improve upon it, and then pass it. I think we have a chance to balance our record of being the highest-divorce-rate province in the country and having the greatest number of problems asso­ ciated with the family unit, with perhaps the most concentrated and coherent effort to deal with problems associated with the family in the western hemisphere. I urge support of this Bill. MR. MUSGREAVE: Mr.

Speaker, as one of the mem­ bers of the Legislature who is going to be involved with research, I must confess I have great difficulty taking an opposing view on this Bill. I cannot, in all honesty, accept the eloquent arguments made by the hon. Member for Calgary Currie — eloquent, but not good. Some people are concerned that there is unhappiness in our land. There is, because wherever there are human beings there is unhappiness. To those who have read Huxley's Brave New World, there was no unhappiness there. If you got concerned or upset about something, you just took a soma pill and became happy.

Some people will say that with our emphasis on drugs today, we're moving into that kind of society. When you look at the alcoholism that exists in the Soviet Union, others would say that George Orwell's 1984 is not far off. I'd like to take perhaps a different point of view. I certainly support the family unit. Last weekend I cele­ brated 37 years of marriage, so obviously I'm quite happy. [applause] AN HON. MEMBER: That's for your wife. MR. MUSGREAVE: That's for my wife. Thank you. When we go back in history, the idea of the family had pretty strong support.

In Biblical times wives were pretty important; they were rated a little better than goods and chattels. Women have always been consid­ ered the weaker sex, but that's a lot of nonsense. Biologically, they're certainly tougher than males. Man evolved controls on women in particular. It was a good way to control the tribe, the city-state, and even­ tually the nation. But was it right? The basic, main purpose of the family unit is to ensure the propagation of the human race. When you look at the tremendous growth in world population, there's some question that this is even desirable any more.

We have misery, want, disease, death, and de­ struction. Today all we need to do is look at the boat people coming out of Vietnam or the terrible tragedies taking place in Nicaragua. So, Mr. Speaker, I'd ask the hon. members, do we need more study, more research, more regulations? Do we need more people on the government payroll exer­ cising a questionable function at best?

It would be very refreshing if we would introduce a Bill into this Legislature asking for a reduction of civil servants, an elimination of rules and regulations, a call for people to be responsible for themselves and not call on gov­ ernment to hold their hands on every occasion as they walk through life. Mr. Speaker, history seems to repeat itself, sometimes in decades and sometimes in hundreds of years. In 1968 the Social Credit government introduced

an Act to establish the Human Resources Research Council. It was established: to undertake educational, social, economic, and other research relating to and affecting the development . . . of human resources in Alberta. Under

Section 4(

a) of The Alberta Family Institute Act the purpose is: . . . to carry out research, to fund the carrying out of research by others and to co-ordinate research into matters affecting the family unit, including changes in the structure of the family Going back to the research council, they talked about carrying out social research, and I imagine that would include families.

I note that in Bill 201 the institute is: to make such recommendations as it sees fit on the basis of research carried out by it and by other organization to the Minister of Social Services and Community Health and . . . other ministers . . . who may have the vaguest connection with family concerns. The resource council of the Social Credit government was to disseminate findings and knowl­ edge that might be useful in determining social poli­ cy, and to develop plans, materials, and procedures relevant to development of human resources.

I'm concerned that in our technological age there is a great alienation of people. We do have problems of loneliness, suicide, marriage breakdown, alcoholism, and mental stress. Yet compared to most of the world, we are tremendously rich in material wealth, we're the best housed people in the world, the majority of us are well dressed, huge numbers of us are overfed, and great quantities of money are spent on booze, gambl­ ing, and drugs. Mr. Speaker, it is not a question of money.

626 ALBERTA HANSARD June 28, 1979 As some members realize, the Human Resources Re­ search Council was not supported by the new Progres­ sive Conservative government and was abandoned in 1972. But before it was discontinued, concern was ex­ pressed that it was a cozy backwater for university profs who wanted some comfortable research projects. It had an ongoing program in six study areas: education, social/economic opportunity, urbanization, human be­ havior, studies of the future, and social audit. These are the kinds of studies that could also be undertaken by the proposed Alberta family institute. Mr.

Speaker, it's interesting when you see what the bureaucrats do with what we legislators put into law. One of their bulletins, Volume 2, Number 1, January 1970, says: What have you done? . . . looking back and looking forward, for pre­ paring annual reports and submitting budgets The following list includes activities which have either been completed at HRRC during the past year, or which are underway and due to be completed within the next few months. Mr. Speaker, I'll just run through some of these, but my question to the members is: was any action taken by the politicians?

A Study of Social Development and Planning in Alberta: "an initial endeavor in an at­ tempt to enhance and contribute to an improved capa­ bility in Alberta's human resource development planning." Or a working paper on the "implications for social development planning in a transition from relatively stable to rapidly changing social welfare functions". Another one was: Who Gave the Lead? Thinking Makes It So; and Related Problems on the Meaning of the Human Resources Concept.

Then we go into Symposium on Social Opportunity in Alberta: "Papers presented by forty scholars from Alberta uni­ versities on social opportunity in education, legal jus­ tice, health care, economics, politics and minority groups". On and on it goes. There's a picture here of a bureaucrat who "has cleared his desk in anticipation of the applications for the next grants-in-aid competition." Beautiful. Mr. Speaker, we have on page 3 a research project: Design for the 70's — Humanization of Learning: A Proposal.

The purpose is "to design and develop a total school program and environment which has as its overriding objective the humanization of learning." Whatever that is. And get this, Mr. Speaker: "Project will last for five years." I'm sure glad this government shut that operation down. Mr. Speaker, I could go through the appendix: Personalities and Aging; A Codification of Studies of the Future; The Demand for an Action Guidance Program for Women; Demographic Study of Edmon­ ton and Calgary. That one was "aborted", whatever that means in the case of studies, but that's what happened to it.

They talk about an Exploratory Social Audit; Humanization of Learning — I mentioned that previously. On and on it goes. Mr. Speaker, we could go on forever. Do we want to set up another institute with this kind of activity? The hon. Member for Calgary Currie mentioned the Vanier Institute. It was set up by proceeds of an endowment fund supplied by the provinces of Canada in concert with the federal government. It has roughly $500,000 a year for work, and a staff of between 12 and 13.

Here's a quote my research assistant got from the executive director: Originally the major money was spent on research, but they found this to be of little value, and they've spent their time and energies on other things. Again, I think it's interesting to see what kind of activities they've engaged in.

In 1972 they had a cata­ logue of Canadian Resources on the Family; 1969, Day Care: A Resource for the Contemporary Family: Se­ minar; in 1971, Day Care: Establishing Community Services; 1970, The Family and Tax Report: Submis­ sion to the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance, Trade, and Economic Affairs; 1968, The Family in the Evolution of Agriculture; 1970, Family Life Education in the Media of Mass Communication; 1971, Family Life Education in the Schools: 1973, Family Life Education in Voluntary Associations; 1963- 67, An Inventory of Family Research and Studies in Canada; in 1977, The New Life: Contemporary Famili­ al Lifestyles.

You see, Mr. Speaker, it goes on and on and on. In defence of his suggestion, the Member for Cal­ gary Currie said: if we go to any university in this province we'll find shelves of information with respect to the family unit: trends regarding it, and an as­ sessment of problems facing it. I ask, does the hon. member wish to take up more shelf space? Do you want to look at more squiggles and graphs prepared by students who probably never were any good at mathematics or statistical analysis' What good is an assessment of any problem if no specific action is taken to solve it?

Further, the hon. member said: . . . we as a government . . . make decisions based on the family unit . . . . We . . . pass laws and create social directions without a detailed analysis of what is happening in those areas. I'd like to take one subject in brief detail — day care. Did we say it would be better for mothers to adopt the traditional role as seen by some of us male chauvinists, that women should stay home? We might have thought so, but we realized we had to live with the times.

Did we say that all those people who were divorced and separated should go back with their spouses and raise their children so the mother could stay home? Did we say we don't like the social direction we find Albertans taking, so we are going to legislate them into different directions? We as government members said: there are a lot of parents who need help, there are a lot of children being raised in day care centres, there are a lot of one-parent families that need financial help, and we're going to do something about it. Mr. Speaker,

an Act was introduced so that those in need could be helped. Let us take seat-belt legislation. Will it be intro­ duced after we investigate the families of the riders and ask their opinion? Or will we look at statistics involv­ ing car accidents and what happens to passengers with or without seat belts on? Did the motorcyclists who were protesting our helmet legislation suggest that the family unit should be considered? Not likely. Returning to their stated reason, they were unhappy because we were invading their privacy. Mr.

Speaker, I don't accept the reasoning of the hon. member when he talks about doing things from the family unit point of view. I don't agree that we go back and take the family unit out from our total society and deal with problems in that way. Mr. Speaker, if we

June 28, 1979 ALBERTA HANSARD 627 adopt the institute as he suggested, all I can see is we're going to have more of these studies on universi­ ty shelves. The hon. Member for Calgary Currie also men­ tioned that he had some very, very positive reports on the validity of $11,000 of taxpayers' money that was recently spent by Edmonton city council on a report that the Edmonton Journal called a "meagre report". I've already mentioned numerous reports of a similar nature where millions of dollars have been spent on studies.

The one that came from Edmonton — any of you fellows here who are hon. taxpayers of the city of Edmonton, you contributed to this. [interjections] One of the recommendations, Mr. Speaker, was that an at­ tractive, colorful

summary should be prepared for pub­ lic consumption to promote the positive features of family life through posters, regular news features in local newspapers, and featured radio and television programs. Kiss your wife every morning; she's a great gal. Pat the kids on the head as you go out the door, and everything is going to be great. Mr. Speaker, this is the kind of nonsense that will come forward as long as politicians do not act on reports already completed or studies that have been prepared after careful research.

Many of us appreciate that perhaps we're moving from a liberal society to a more conservative one. Perhaps some of us are disturbed, but let's be a little critical for a few minutes. The report of the local academic says that in 1971-76 we had the highest divorce rate in Canada. Yet accord­ ing to a research table I have, Alberta had a rate of 309.9, the second highest in Canada in 1976; the prov­ ince of British Columbia was first. But, Mr. Speaker, here is an interesting statistic from that table. The province of Newfoundland had 76 di­ vorces per 100,000, roughly one-quarter of our rate.

Many years ago I lived in Newfoundland. Right now, it has the highest unemployment in Canada, it has the lowest minimum wage in Canada, it has a very, very difficult economic scene, and perhaps it may have a stronger religious bias than we have in our province. But I suggest, Mr. Speaker, this is what happens when people pull statistics out and don't compare them with the environment from which they come. We can get trapped in these things time after time. Let's look at what may cause some of the divorces in our province.

How many people come here from Brit­ ish Columbia or Saskatchewan so they can be here a year, get a divorce, and not have to wait as long as they do in the other provinces? How many divorced people remarry? Why should society get upset about people wanting to end a union that two people made without society input? Mr. Speaker, if you really want to make the divorce rate go down, prevent marriages. It's that simple. You may laugh. I'm a member of the board of stewards of the United Church in Calgary.

One of the difficulties we always come up with is somebody who rushes in and says to the minister, we have to have a church wedding. You haven't seen him for years; you'll never see him again. He's one of the BMB wanderers. They go into a church three times in their life: when they're born, that's when they're brought in to be christened; when they're married, they walk in for that one; and when they're buried. Two out of the three times they're brought in by someone else. [interjec­ tions] Right. Hatched, matched, and dispatched. Mr.

Speaker, the report goes on to say that two­ thirds of single-parent families headed by women are on welfare. Well, I question that. Do they have a police- type of surveillance where they check the figures every day to see who's on welfare and who goes off, this kind of thing? Perhaps if we paid more women the same kind of money that we pay men for the same kind of work, we'd have fewer women on welfare, and fewer women in need of social assistance. Mr. Speaker, another figure that I found, a little concern. It mentions illegitimate births being up 36 per cent.

We all know that people are living together without benefit of clergy. I'm not saying I condone it; I certainly don't. But this does happen. In spite of the pill and all these other devices we have today, women do get pregnant, whether they're married or not, and they do have babies. Why should you get that con­ cerned about that kind of statistic when you look at the situation in which we're living? Mr. Speaker, perhaps the hon. member's figures were misquoted in Hansard, but here's one I do get a little upset about.

I have discussed this with agencies in Calgary and Edmonton, and with medical people, and none of them agree with these figures. The report suggests there's one abortion for every five concep­ tions. I should point out, Mr. Speaker, a woman can abort for a variety of reasons, and many of them are beyond the ability of a woman to initiate. The term they use is "spontaneous abortion". My colleague on the right would be quite familiar with that, but I wasn't. [interjections] How ridiculous to suggest that a ratio of conception to abortion should be of any concern.

He goes on to say that there are two illegal abor­ tions for every five conceptions. Now remember: two illegal, one legal. That's three out of five, 60 per cent. Now, my medical colleagues tell me they find that very, very hard to believe. The other thing I'd like to know is: does the researcher have a hotline to the abortion mills, so that every time an illegal abortion is committed they tell him about it? I would suggest, having been on the Calgary hospital board for seven years, the number of illegal abortions is a lot less than before the abortion law was changed.

More important, does he get confirmation from every doctor in the city to advise him that a woman is pregnant? Mr. Speaker, another issue is mental health. They claim that in the city of Edmonton, they have more mental health problems in families. I know of four families in the province of Alberta that are all what you'd call good, middle-class families. They've been married 25 years or more, their kids have gone to university, the people are pillars of their church, they went to hockey games with their kids, they were co­ aches of the kids.

They've done everything they were supposed to do, but they still have mental problems. What are the research people going to do about that? And, Mr. Speaker, they have sought and got profes­ sional counselling with regard to mental health. Mr. Speaker, I'm not concerned about the rates in Ontario, Quebec, or the rest of Canada. I'm concerned with the rates of mental health problems in the prov­ ince of Alberta. This is where the problems are, and we surely can solve them ourselves.

I'm not saying we don't talk to those other provinces if they have informa­ tion or experience that will help us, but we have to solve our own problems. Mr. Speaker, we don't need more research. We need action. We need solutions. Perhaps what we need is a

628 ALBERTA HANSARD June 28, 1979 pragmatic analysis of why politicians don't act on some of these research programs, of which we have hundreds and thousands lining the university shelves. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to mention one other thing. The hon. member mentioned the great support he has. I have a letter here, and this came quite by accident. It was addressed to my research assistant from the chap who is an associate dean in the University of Calgary. I'm a little nervous, because I don't know this chap. He's probably going to be very annoyed at me.

Here's why he supports the concept of the Alberta family insti­ tute. He says: . . . we would like to propose the establishment of a Chair of Family Practice within this faculty for a ten-year period. This Chair of Family Practice would be a joint appointment between the Insti­ tute and this faculty, and would serve as an inte­ grative . . . That's a new word on me. . . . link between research and teaching so that there would be an immediate application of the knowledge generated from the Alberta Family Institute. Mr.

Speaker, I suggest to you that just adds more confirmation of what I was afraid this institute would become. In conclusion I'd like to say that private members' Bills time is precious time. There are other jurisdictions in Canada where if a member sponsoring a private member's Bill gets the support of say 20 members in the House, it has to be voted on. Being politicians, we all have to get a certain amount of press, whether in the news media or on radio, television, whatever. Otherwise your constituents say, what are you doing, you just sleep up there all time.

If you're promoting all sorts of Bills of varying natures they say, what are you trying to do? I've had my share; all I need to do is mention fluoridation and non-smoking. Mr. Speaker, I think we should be cautious in putting forward Bills that may represent our biases but not necessarily our constituents'. I'd like to close by mentioning Aesop's fable about the green peas. There are five peas in a pod. The little guy in the middle looks at his neighbor, and he's green; and the little guy in the middle's green; and the fellow on the right is green; and the pea pod is green.

And he says, the whole world must be green. MR. PAYNE: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportuni­ ty to participate in this discussion of the proposed Alberta Family Institute Act. I was intrigued by the comments of the hon. Member for Calgary McKnight, and I found that I was in substantial agreement with one of his concluding comments that we "need actions and solutions". I quite agree with that appeal. I just wish there hadn't been in his comments an impoveri­ shment of "actions and solutions".

As he dealt with the proposed legislation, I couldn't help but recall a for­ mer business partner of mine who was always critical of people in committee who would attack good ideas before they had been properly formulated. He circu­ lated a memo to my other partners. The title of the memo was: 85 Ways To Kill a Good Idea. On the weekend I intend to contact my former partner and say, from the hon. Member for Calgary McKnight here are two more to add to your list. Mr.

Speaker, earlier in this sitting as I participated in the debate on the throne speech, I made this observa­ tion with all sincerity: Calgary Fish Creek is a constituency characterized by strong families, attractive homes, and a good life style In my constituency I see abundant evidence of the value of strong families, and I can readily recognize th