Volume XL Thursday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF· I NEWFOUNDLAND Fourth Session VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard) Speaker: Honourable P~J. McNicholas r Number 35 12 May 1988

The House met at 3:00p.m . MH. SPE'AI<FR (McNi.choJ.as) : Ordein, p1.0.i:l !)E!! Statements by Ministers MR . R[l)fOUT : Ml". SpE!aker . MR. SPEAI<FR: The hon. thE! MirdstE:H' of F : i.si·H~!r:iC'!S. MR~DEO~l}: Mr. Speaker, as members will r e c a 11 on A p r'i.l Ul , 1 9 8 8 , I rnc1. de a statement to this HouSE! or1 thE! lobster fishery. This statement made reference to the fact that undE!r the Fish Inspc~~ct-ion Act, all lobsters buyers, as a condition of the'.ir licE!nce, ar·t::~ requ.i.I"E!d to pay fisherlnE!n 70 pE!r CE!rlt of thE! priCE! received for Newfoundland lobster in the Boston market.

Today I IAI-L s h to confi.r·m to t: hc~~ HouSE! i·:hat. this condition is presE!ntJ.y in efFAct.. Although this prJ d.ng system has bc~~0.n u·l-.:i.J.i.zec:l by thf:! l.ob!;i:.r.~l" :indtJstry since 1984, the market s ·i.t.uat:'i.on L:h·i.s y~~i:lt' .i.s noi·. i'l.S ~trong as previous years and conseq11enl.:l.y, buy~H'S, i.n ord~n · ·l:o conduct a viabJe operation under t h .i. s c r .i. t E! r· :i. a , arc~~ r E! q u :i. r· c~ d I~ o 11 fine tune 11 opE:H'ations to TnE!Ed: thE! '70 PC'!r cc~!nt r·equ-LrelliE!nt and realize profitabJ.e returns.

Accordingly, I have decided to schedulE! thE! weekly priCE! announcements to more adequately c o n i n c i d e wi t h t h e s E! 11 i n g d at E! i n the U. S. rnarl<etplace. For examplE!, Mr. SpE!akE!r, my previous

schedule 'indicatE!d that t:he price an no u n c e d e a c h F rid a y wo u 1 d a p p J.y retroactively to the previous weeks purchases. However, these a n no u n CC'! d p r i. c e s rn o r E! ad c~' q u a t. e l y 1.. 18? 8' May 12, 1988 Vol XL. apply to the period two weeks p l" e v :i. o u s , s i. n c: e ·i. t f r ~:! q u e n t 1 y takE!S anylAJherE! from 10 to 14 days fY'Oifl lhe ·U.me of ptii"Chr.l!>C fr·om l::hE! fishermen for the lobster to reach '1-. h f:! a c t.1.1 r:l. l lnr.l i" k P. t "i, n 1:: l·w U rl'i. 1·: (c' d :)t.ates.

I have attached a revised schedul e for· 1-.h0 r:~ J.ea s n of· lob~; bH' pr·i c e s for the remainder of thE! SE!ason -· ti-. is hE!rC Jn Lhe st:ai'.~ : !ITIE!nt . BE!ginn'.ing on 20 May, lAJhich :is l'lE!Xt Fr·'i.dr.1y, i-.hr:!l"<~! w'.i.ll be another pr'.ice announcement applying to the t.•.J E! e k of May 1 t. o f./1 a y '7 , a n d s o o n down through to the end of the SE:~ason. The priCE! I announCE !d J.ast week, on May 6, 1988 ($2.65/lb) appJ.:i.E!S for· the.;! per·"i.od Apr·:.i.J. 20 t:o Apr:i.l 30.

Further prices to fishermen wi.ll depend on the market and w:iJ.l bE! announcE!d as pE!r the s dwdu1E! that I have just ref e rred to. Buyers will be required, of c o u r· s e , i" o m f~ n i". i:. h E! a n n o u n c e d prices retroactively for the pc~r'.i.od l··.he al'lnounr:em~~nt covers. In ordE!r to rE!Vert t.:o th:.i.s pr'iCE:! sc:hP.dul.G, rny l'l~'!Xt pr·'i.ce announcE!ment wiJ.l be nE!Xt Fl"iday, Mt)1Y /.0, c\pp1 t cc:~bl . c:! for f:IH! P"!r-:i.ocl May 1 to 7.

FurthE!rlflore, l:.o f:!nSUI"e thai: aJJ. p<'lrl:.:iE!S i'\Y'E! i'llAJar'E! of the weekly prices, I will be telexing t:h0 buyers and FishE!rrTIE!n's Un:ion, in cldd:i.tion t.o ITIE!di.a announcc~~rnent.s. In or'd(~!r l:.o ensure that buyers ar' E! :i.nc1uded on l::hi.s t:eJ.~~x l.:i.st i':hE!Y can cont<'.!.Ct. our liCE!ncing division Ol" any Fi.eld office of t:IH! Oepar·trnE!I1t: of FisheriE!S. Mr. SpE!aker, this adjustrnE!nt ts :i.n i'l. C C 0 I" d d 11 C (~~ IAJ"i. t h t·. h (~1 p r' '.i 11 C :l p J. E' t h d t thE! fisherrnE:~n rE!CE!iVE! 70 pE!r' CE!Ilt. of l:. h c~1 rn<H' kE! t v i'lll .l e .

T h :is t i. rn:i n g

schedule wilJ. more adequately r· e r J. e c t: i: h i s p r i n c :i p 1 E:1 1·. o No. 3 5 R1828 -~--.:.

accommodate the industry (fishermen and buyers) J.n gene!ral. Although this condition of licencing has provided pricing guidelines for lobster fishermen OVE!r the past fE!L~J years, I look fortAJard to 1989, IAJhE!n such ·a condition, under the Fish Inspection Act, is not required and is replaced with the rE!guJ.ar industry pricing mechani.sm through collective bargaining between the union and buyers. I have every indication that this acl:ton wJ.ll take place for the 1989 season. SOME HON. MEMRERS: Hear, hear! MR. J. CARTF.R : Ml" . ~:)peak cH' . MR.

SPEf.'\1<1":1~: ·--------··-The hon. member for TIJ..Ji. l1oi.ngal~e . Ml~. W. CfiRTEf~ : Mr. Speaker, I realize the importance of clarifying the situation tAli th respE!Ct to the Boston blue sheE!t pri.ce and the 70 per cent amounts that have been statE!d by thE! minister, because a numbE!r of lobster buyers have indicated some confusion as to what period, for example, applies and all t:hat sari· : of thing .

My colleague for StE!fJhE!nviJ.le has brought to rny ath~ntion t-.l1e fact that a number of buyers in his area have expressed concern that they are nol sure as to what p (oH' 'i. o d "i. s c: o v E! r· e d a n d a s l: o ~~~ h a +.: price is being paid. I think one of thE! important 1:. h i. n g s t: h a 1:. i.: h E~ m i n '.i. s t: e r· 1'. o u c: h P. d on 1.uas thE! fact that the lobstE!r lni'll"b=d: l.:h.i. s yE:H-ll" .i.s not d!; good i'\S it was last year.

In fact, I be 1. i (;! v r,~ J. a s '1:. y 0.~ a r· l·: h c-~ p r i c r~ be -i. n g paid for· lobster was around $3.15 L1829 May 12, 19 a a Vol XL a potJI'Jd, and this y0.~iH' i.t i.s $2.65. That is a pretty sizeable r~1cluct.ion and, of course, the fishermen are the real losers. M r . S p 0.~ a I< e r· , I a rn n o t b 1 a m i n g l: lw rniniste!r for this. I knolAJ that this ~s all contingent on the Boston market and thE!

ArnE!r'ican market , and so on , for 1 o b s t e r, but certainly it points out the need for maybe taking a second look· at thE! industry it.SE!lf, in that., i:\s -Ls al.tAJays l::he case, IAJhE!n thE! lobste!r SE!ason starts, thE!rE! is a great deal of interest in the f'i s hery and a J.ot. of lobs t:E!r arE! exported into !'.he marketplace, and, conSE!quently, of coursE!, J.:.i.ke any other product, when there is an oversupply, the priCE! drop!>. That ·i. s I~Jhat is happening :in thE! lobster fishery, and it is not go·i.ng to b~=! d sJ1npl.E~ matl.:er· l::o overcome.

But CE!rtainly it seE!fnS to rrJE! th~:! idecl of holding lobsters in holding pounds for a certain per·:i.od- I real. -i. ze too ·Uwr·e is a limit as to how J.ong you an hold them and then fed Jnto the market as thE! demand rE!quirE!S, we might be in a much better position to gE!t a bettE!r priCE! and haVE! a more sustained price. It is very tedious. The market is up and down, and, as I said, Uw f 'i. s h c;! r 111 c,1 n a r· e 1.1 s u a 11. y t. h E! 1 o s e r· s . T f.lm not.

SIH'Pi"'ised that.: l::hE! ministe ;r in his clos:ing par·agraph said he looked forward to next YE!ar lAihen this conditton 1Ari.11 no long(;!l" cxJst <:lnd IAJhat: ls noiJ.J thE! practice wil.l be replaced by a r'(,~gtJl.al" ·i.ndustt··y p;"ic-i.ng mt;!chani .sm through coJ.lective bargaining bot.t~Jn~~n l:he un'.i.on and t:.hE:! buyc;!r's . I t:.h'i nk that is IAJhat hi.~s to cornE:!. .rt i.!; nol: a hE~al.t:hy s:it:.ual:.:i.on noiJ.J, for the government to be so highly No. 3 5 Rl829

involved. I think the matter of pr·:ic:i.ng can be bet."l:er d~~al.t. IAdth by the union and thE! buyE!rS through the regular collecting bargainjng process. Mr. SpeakE!r, thE!Se are a fE!IAJ thoughts t:hdl: I wouJ.d li.kr:! l:o pass on 'l:o the minis t:er. Maybe sornet.:i.JTif~ hf:! can addr'E!SS 1:hr~m and invest]gate the:~ possibility of provJd:i.ng somE! mF:'chan:-i.srn whoJ"oby lobsters can be held over until the 1narket cc.Hl absorb thC:Hn ~~l:i t:hout ·. a drop in price. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FEN~HCK: Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Mr.

Speaker, the marketing of lobsters, like the marketing of all the rest of thE! fish in our Provi.nce, suffers, I th"i.nk, from too much of an at.tittJde t.l1at the Atmn·icans are the only rnatnkEd:. ·i.n terms of development for the f u t u r 8 . I t: hi. n k I~ h A M "i. n J s 1·. E! in of Fj she r•j e s and every body e 1 s e IAJould agree thal there are a lot of other markets that have been developed in the past tn Europe and in Japan, which, quite frankly, are a lot moro lucrative. So it is, I think, with lobsters as well..

We are talking about a price pegged at 70 p(,~r CE!I11: of t:he Bos t:on rnark<~t, Y<->.t I understand fr·orn CleartAJatE!r, the fish company that does i::l lot of the lobster marketing, a lot of it :is sold in Europe not:.t.J, sold in Japan and sold in other countriE!S. l..<,~ · l: us hope t:.ha 1: in the future we can develop these rnarke·ts to t:he (,~xtent tl'li:at tAlE:~ r:lo not have to rely on the Americans. L1B30 May 12, 1988 Vol.

XL BecausE!, as one person told mE!, if each Arneini.can Elats fift<,~Eln pounds of f i s h a n d t h E! r· e a r E! 2 :) 0 rrd. 11:i o n of Uwm, that croah,~s a CE!r·taJ.n siZE! fish market. But when the Ji:'lpanr~c;~~ eat onr:! hundrE!d pounds of fish and thr:~re is 100 rn:i.lli .on of L h r~ rn, 1:. h r.l t. :i. s r.l rna r k r:! I~ '1: hat i. s almost twice or three times as big ns 1:he (.)rner·i. can rni:tY'kf:!l . ~~von !:.hough :it looks srna11E!r.

And in plaCE!S IAJer·<;! they SFHHld :1>50 for· r.~ pound of stE!a·k, thE!Y arE! not go:i.ng to b~:! too sur·pt~i . sod t:o g<:!l':. a Jobst:(:!r' shipped OVE!r by air· frE!ight, Luhich 1na y !; t.: .i.l.l be a b l. I'! 1:. o g i. v ~'! us a hi.ghE!r yiE!ld. So we support the att:E!Tnpt to locaJ.tze it., to st.abi.l:ize thE! priCE!. We aJ.so r'E!alize :.Lt. is a collective bargaining function, although a ver·y diff:lcuJ.t onE! gtvC:Hl UH:~ vagar·iE!S of the rnari<E!l: .. But we hope that in the future, and we intend to make a submission to the SenatE!

CornmittE!E! on fish market:tng which i.~> corning lo the Province next week or lhe week aft: e r , IAJO IAJi '1.1 s r~ <~ a develop ITI<'! n t on a lAJorld-wide basis, bE!Ci'l.USE! I Ud. n k 1: ha i: :i. s t:he bo ::; 1:. p r·o t.<'! ct. :i. on we have against getting good p r i c e s f o in o 1.1 r· f:i. s h f>r' o d u cl:: s a n d keeping thE! price thE!InE! over ti'lE! long t:OJ"In. SOMf. IWN. MF.MB E RS: Hear·, 1·1ear! DR. COLLINS: Mr. Sp<,~al<(!r . MR. SPEAKER : ThE! han. the Minister· of Health . DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Sp(:~ai<E!r, thE!r(:~ has beE!I'l rnuch discussJ.on in the media and otherwise in recent days about the situation w::i. th rE! s PE! ct. to hospital bE!d closures in thE! Province during the Summer months. No . 3 !> R1830

I '"'au 1 d J. ike to poi. n t out. to h on . lfl(.~mbers that. bed cJ.osures dur:ing the Summer months is a common phenomenon in Newfoundland 1 s health care system and, indeed, throughout Canada and North America. What we are witnE!SSing t.hts yec.H' is not.. dramat.-.lct-l1ly different from the situation in previous years. There are many reasons why hospitals close:1 beds in summertime. In ge:1neral, ·i.t is the normal practice for hospitals to do this as a cos ·t-cont.a:inmont measure because summertime is gc,1neralJ.y considered to bc:1 a mor'E! appropriate time of the year to reduce hospilaJ. activities.

This i~ due to a number of factors. For eXrlmpJ.H, t.:I'H'!rf:! i.!> USI.Ii:lll.y a shol'·tage of r·elief staff availabJ.E! J.n summ1=!r'. ThE!i"n Js ofton a decreased demand from the pubJic l: o h a v c:1 e J. c.:! r: i: :i. v (~ s u r· g o i" y d u r :i. ng the Summer months because children are:1 out of school and peopl.(~ arc-:! often on vacation. Also, hospital stafF c:tnd physicians, l.'.i.ko olhE!r people, try to take vacation duri.ng t:he SumiTI(:1r months.

In general terms. the summertime is a more opportunl':1 tim<:1 lo r·educe operations in hospitals and Newfoundland hospitals, like hospitals elsewhere, take this into consideration. In previous years, in the summertime Newfoundland hospitals have closed i.n HH:1 range of 350 t.o 375 beds oF a total bed complement of approximately 2, ?50 acutF.! car·e beds. That represl':~nts approx:ima t(~ l. y 1.3 p(~r c en L of f.·\C u te care beds. T n l h e c u r r r:Hl t y <:! a r , 1:: h <:! r e .

IAri. l. 1 b o applnoximatc'!ly 430 acute car·e:1 beds of a I:O'i.:dl bc-:!d CCHnpl.f:HIIOni'. of /., 76H closed during the Summer. This i. n c r· r,~ a s e i. n c J. o s 1.1 r· c ~ s ;:., rn o un·t ·. !> 1:. o 1..1831 May 12, 1988 Vol XL about 50 beds rnore than last YE!ar· bul ?.0 oF t:l'lat 50 bE!d closur·e relates to the $20 million redevelopment of Lhe Central NeiAJfoundland Hospital at Grand F a 1 1. s , IAII'l e:~ r e t: h e r e h a s t o b e , f o r construction purposes, a certain amount of closedown of activitiE!S.

In eSSE!I'lCE!, thE! tr·ue percentage of fiCUte care bed closure this Surnrner wil1 bE! 14· . 8 p<:1rcent . , IAihich, as I say, r(d.a t·. E!S to .approximately 13 pE!Y'CE!nt :Ln other year·s. 5o t:.hE!r'~'! :is nol~. a great percentage increase . rn the health care system there is no such thing as a cutback in funding. Each year the amounts granted to the Province 1 s hospitals increase. In our cur·reni : o st:i.mr.ltes of J ~ r,1tJ( ' !I'll.le and E!Xpenditure. IJ..JE~ have providE!d for· c r a n t s 'i: o H o s p i. 1:. a J. ~> 1.: h t s y o a I" a total of $4.00,711,700.

This C 0 I'll p f:l ;n 0 S IAI i. i ·. h $ :J '7 'J , J. 'J lJ. , l () Q J. d ~ ; t. year, repr·E:~SE!nting a 7. 6 - PE:!l~CE!I'lt .i. n c r c,1 a s o i n '1: h o g E! n c=! r· a l. a 11 o c a t i. o n over last year. Mr. SpE!aker•, I IJJOUld like to reit:erale the point that the situation with respect to hospital bed closurE!& and hospi t al funding this year must be put into a proper historic perspective. If that is done and the s:ltuaU.on .in Newfoundland is fairly assessed, it. wiJ.l becomE! clE!ar to objE!Ct:lVE! obsEH'V<:1rs t:hdt the d(:~cis :ions tak~:!n by thE!

Newfoundland hospit.aJ. care system are really comparable to those taken in other years and to those taken by other respons i ble health authorities in other provinces of our Country. SOME HON. MEMBERS: H~1ar, hear! MR. IIIIELLS: ---- ·---···-Mr·. SpE!aker . No. 35 Rl831

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. thE! of the Opposi.t.:lon . MR. WELLS : Mr·. Speaker, 1..11hat: tAle face hE:1rE! is the reality of the need. rt ts clear that we are not providing and responding i·. o +:hc.~ nH0.d rcH' hospjtal services in the Province. SOME HON. MFMRFRS: 0 h---;-0~·- --·-·----- Ml~. SPF.:()KF.I~ : Ord~H'! Otndc:1 1", please! MR. WF.I..I..S: · IndE:~ed there ha s been a Jot sa:id i.n thE! rnedta "'i.n i·.h~~ last hAlO or thr·ee days about ti1c,1 problE!mS arising out. of the closur·c:! of health care beds, and not alJ. of it: has bE!E!I1 totally accural :. e.

I am inclined to agree with the Minister of Health (Dr. Collins) that it may welJ. have been E:1xaggerated to say that thc,1 lady diE:1d because! shE! could not be admitted to hospital. I do not quarrel with that, and I do not believe Mrs. Rot~Jsc,1ll quarrels tAJi.t.h it either, but the sirnple fact is, M r . S p c,1 a k E:1 r , s h r,~ o u g h l:. 1.: o h a v o b e e n a d rrr.i t t e d t o h o s p i t a 1 a n d s h E!

IAJa!; not bc;!cause UH:1 ro LIH:!r~: ! nol :. adc,1quate bE!dS available unless she t~J e r o an c.~ rn E! r g o n c y . n n d IAJ h a I: 1·: he government's action has done for ~ : hn mosi: pi~tt"t :i.s t"c.~dur:P. our hospi. ·ti-ll care services to the point . l.!.Jhr;!r'e, Fot" a si.gn:if:ir:f·ln'i.: pot"tion of l:hr:1 year·, at :u~ast in some sot"Vi.CE!S not aJ.l., you can only be adrni.tt.E!d, Mt". Speaker, if you iH'E:' an (~rner·gency. nnd that i.s a sad commE:Hltary on t:he del:iVE!ry of our health care services . AN HON. MEMBEr~: (Inaudible) trying to play God . MR.

SPEAKER: Ll832 May 12, 1988 Vol XL Order, ph1ase! MR. WELLS: The statement rnade today by the h on . 1: h 0 M:i n i. s 1. E! r 0 f H ~Hil J. t: h t h a 1:. everything is normal is, w::i.th great respnct I submit, not totally ac c urate. BE! CaUSE! this p In 0 C (:! d U In f:! h a S 0 n J. y S 1.: a r• t: (;! d J. 1'1 rt:~CE!I'lt YE!ar·s, the last fiVE! or· f:;:lx Oi" so, l,lJhC:!n govr'!l'"'l'ltnc.:!nt ct.11· back on funding to h o spi.taJ.s ·, and mor'E! and rnot"c.:!. ho~;pi.tal bod~; nrc.:! having l:o be closE!d because Uwr'E! :i s a r· f:' d u r: {·. :i. o n ·i n t h C.:!

F u n d :i. n g '" v a J. 1 d b 1. t:~ to hospi .t al s or, <i t the ver·y l'Ads 1: , t·.i'Ho!i"e ·ls no 1:. c\dequa t:E! fttndi.ng r'\va·i . l.c::Abl(~ t-.o hospitcd .s . PREMIER PECKFORD: ------------u••-A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: Ord(:H', pl(:!aSE!! A point. oF ordE!r, the hon. the~ PrE!miE!r. PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. the Leader of the Oppostion is dealing in "inaccuraci.E!S. We hRve not cut. back on funding to hospit.a1s, WE! havE:~ incrE:~i:-lS( ~ d "i.l: .. The L0.~adc,~r· of thE! Opposition knotJJs that, and hE! j_ s rea J.

J.y tn:i. s I" o p r ~:! s n n t. i. n g 1:: hE! situation when he knows the d :i. f F c.:! r o n c 0 . MR. WEI..LS : Mr. Speaker, this is no t a po :int of ordor·. PREM1fR PECKFORD : There has not been a rE!ducti.on in f tJ n d -:i. n g to h o ~; p "i. t i'\ 1. s , 1·.·. h ~:! r· E! has been an increase every si.ngle year. MR. WELLS : Mr· . Spt,~al<or, that "i.~; not a point. of ordE!r. Mf~. SIMMS : No. 35 R1832

Thal is up to the Speaker. MR. SPF.:AKFR: There is no point of order. Th~:! hon. the Leader of Oppos-Lti.on . MR. WELLS: Of course there is order, it is an interfere. no point of attempt. to Mr.

Spl':~akE!r. adE!quate funding is not made ava:ilabll':~ to hospit.i~ls t.o provide the health care services our people n~~E!d and, as a rl':1Sult, during the Summer months, which now seems to get extended from Mar·ch to October, a very long ~::lurnmer, a longor SurrnrH::"!r than tAle have ever had in this Province, accoss to hospital beds is not available to people who need it unless they are in an emergency situation, and the government rn:i.ghi". as IAJeJ.J. rr:!c:ognJ . .1.e H:.

T.n fact. in i:h:is yeat~ th~~ rl':1stratnt o F f u n d i n g J s s ll c h ti"li:l t t he i~ o J. s going to be a more serious cutback t:han t.hr:~re has BIH1r bt:H'!n b('!fore. So it J.s quite improper to cdstigcl"l.:e the han. the mr:nnb.=!r' for Por·t dE1 GraVE! in the ci.rcurns l:ances, iJ.JirLch ha~; bc,H'!n done by the hon. minister and thE! news media :in the last: couple of d<'lys. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hE!ar! MR. SPEAI<ER : ThE! hon, l:h('! mc;!rnbE!r for Mc,1rd hE!k . MR. FENWICK: Mr. SpE!akE!r, in looking at thE! statement pr~:!par·c,1d by th~:!

Mi.n-i. si::C:1r of Health he says there is no such thing as a cutback in funding which, of course, leaves the g ~~ n E! r a J. p u b 1. i c IAI :i. t h 1.: h (~ :i. rn p r E! s s :i. o n that. there :is no cutback tn ~; e r \J i. c o s . fl u i: , .i. n f i:·\ c t , t~JC:! a '1. 1 1..1833 MrlY 12, 1988 Vol XL knotlJ that l.:hn ho~;p"i.l·:als, especially in St. John's OVE!r abot .Jt a l.:ht~on Oi" Four Y<'!dl" FH:!r'i.od. went through a freeze in the total bl.Jdgei: i·.ha +: t:h(c1Y hc:\d.

O·f coursc"1• costs contJ.nUE!d to E:1S cala"l:e, thE! cos 1: of ntJI"~;es' saliH·""L~:·s. doctor·s' salaries, medical suppltE!S and so o 11 • so thE! only 1~1a y L hey co u 1 d accommodatE! :it IJ.Jas to cut: bc1ck on se:1rvic~1s so tl'li':\t Uw budge;! t:. could thE!n rneE1t it. · So I thi.nk it :i.s S C.HII E! IAJ h iii t 1 e S S t: h a 1'1 1: 0 t a 11 y h 0 11 E! S t for the Ministe!r of Health to say that there has not been a cutback, eVE!n though, strictly spee:1ldng, t:l·1 r:1 tAKH'd s rna y b c,1 t: rue . T I'H'! fact is, we have less service.

The other thing I should point out ' 1.: o h i. tn i s t h a 1.: t h E! n u r· s E:1 s a r· E! telling us that the reason part of !::he cutbHck -i. n ·t.hc;! ~-)urnrn~: !r' i.s occurring ~s because of the de~>P('!r'i:\ l.:n ~' "i.'i:.uat·i_on l:.o get: nuJ"SC::ls dur:lng that t.iiTIE! per·:iod to do thE! 1~(:1l:i . C:1f IAJOY'k, f.lnd thai":.] . ~ ; ln!CC\LISE! so many nurses have bE!COTTIE! di~;gusl .: ed by ·l:he ov~:!r'tAJor·k that they have to do that they are leaving the profession. For· example, onf:! of t·.he hospitals in St.

John's adverti.SE!d for· t.l'l"i.r·ty reJ.Le:~f nurse!; t:\nd only got ten applicants. That rnakes it very, very d:iff:icul.t to operate thE! number of beds that <'H'E! needed, and t:hiill: l.s a r'E!sult, I would suggest, of the continuing freeze over a number of years, which mE•ans that we haVE! a heal. th car· e s y s tE!In that :i. s in c r· is i s . I regre!t that we ended up tAJoi l:.h l::he f.lrgument. c~:!ntc,,r·-.ing on the unfortunate dE!ath of a IAJornan f"t~orn ~)t. l_atAJronce. Thf~ fac 1·.: of t:.hE! mattE!r is, thE! shortagE! :is thE!rE! and there are health threatening situations, Mr. Speaker.

The P.Xi:tmpJ.('! tndy hr::JUC:! ber:!n an inappropriate one to USE1, but: thE! f a c -l: 1. ~; 1.: h < ~ c I" :i ~; :i_ s ·i. ~; l:: h o I" ( ~ a n d No . 3 S R1833

the people who are 1..11ai ti.ng to ge:~ t into thE! hospitaJ.s know it . Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : At this stage, I IJ.Jould likE! to IJ.Jelcom~~ to the,~ galler·i.es stud~Hlts from St. Theresa's Elementary S c h o o 1 i. n B u c h c.,111 s , w"i. 1'. h t h c,~ i r teachers, Mr. and Mrs. Ted Whelan. SOMF. liON. MEMBERS: Hea1n, hear! Oral Questions MR. TUI . K: Min . Speaker• . MR . SPF.AI<ER : The hon. the member for Fogo . MR. TUL:,K: Mr. Speaker, on May 9 the m~HnbE!r for· the Str·ait of BellE! Isle (Mr. Decker) askE!d thE! Minister· of Labour (Mr.

Blanchard) a question, and I quote to him from Hansard: 'Wi.11 thr:~ minister adv'ise the House why he would approve rE!tlting space at $14 . 85 per square foot. when similar and maybe be!tter space was available at $11.00 a square foot?' ThE! minister I think promised thai'. he would r'E!port to the House. I ask thE! mtnis f:.c;!r ~~JI·l(!n Ci:Hl tAJe expect +:.o gr'!t that r•eport? MR. fli.ANCIIARD: Ml". Spr~dk!C!I" . MR. SPF.AKFR : Th~~ hon. the M'.inistE!r of LabotJr . M R . B I. AN C H A R 0 : Mr.

Speakr:1r, I :L nforrned thE! hon. the member for the Strait of Helle Isle when he asked the question that we would ascertain all of the facts relating to that question L1834 May 12, 19 8 8 Vol XL and I would table them . But I also told him, Mr. SpeakE!r, at. thE! t.:ime, and I still. am c~H·ta:i.n, that it had to do IJ.Jith thE! suitabi1ity of the space. But :in dUE! cotJr s e, Mr. SpeakE!r', I wiJ.J. table the "i.nfor·mal:ion. MR. TULI<: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAI<F.R : A supplementary question . Ml~. TUI.I<: Mr-. SpeakE!r, I fail to understand tAJhal'. t . ~; tak'.'i.ng t·. hn rnini.st~:!r' so long.

Surely he had the :inforrllat·ion aucdli:~bl.H befoi" E'! hE' made li1E! decision, so it must just: now bo ~ matter of pull lng that togethE!r and bringing it i.nto th:is House . So T ask the rn:i.ni.sbH', Mr . SpeakE!r, l..\Jha't. is taking so long? Are there such extenuating circumstances that it is taking him so long to table this information, or arE! IAJE! go:i.ng to wait until the House closes in July or August, and thE!n he wi11 pubLish it? MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The hon . I: he:~ Mi.ni.s ter of Labour . MR. RI.ANCHARD : No, Mr. Speaker, no E!Xtenuat:i.ng c:i.i"C:tlrn!;t.r.~ncr:!!;.

And T dm not ai~Ji'H'E! if there is any specific time J.i.1n:i. l·. p1<:"1Cl;~cl on ~>OI'n(;!l.:hi.nq l.jkr:! that. In the I'H:~xt day or· so 1 IAJ'i.J 1. pIn() V :i. d (~ an i~\ 11 S IAJ(;! r• . MR. FUr~EY : Mr . Spc:'aker . Mf~. ~3PEAKER : The hon . the member for St. Barbe . MR. FUREY: No. 3 5 R1834-

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for t hc,1 Mi. ni. s i::e r· () r Ca rfHH' Del) e l.oprno rl'l: and Advanced Studtes (Mr. Mm t t.hetAIS) . We l. r~i:l r t'HH1 today 1: ha 1·. ·r.he only tc,1achE!r at Her Majesty 1 s P (-:1 n :i. 1: e n t: tar\ y j _ ~; go i n g t: o b f.~ 1 r:t J. d off as par·t of a larger layoff of fi.Fty t:eachc,1r!> i.n l:he Communi. 1~y College Sys tern . When this teacher l.er:wes ·i.n Jljnc ,1 the <:~ducati.onal courses at the Penttentiary will be shut down completely, leaving the inmates with no way to upgrade themselves for IAJhc,~n they lc,1ave the->. system.

Can the ministe!r confirm that this layoff will happen in June? And if it will happen, what does his department plan to do about this E!ducational void which will happen within the Penitentiary system? MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Spe:~akc,1r . MR. SPE:AK~R: The hon. the Mtrdster of Career Df~V(doprnP.n1: and AdvrHlc:od Studic,'s. MR. MATTHEW~:>: ·Mr.--s pea k e r· , r t h a n k the h o n . member for his question and [ would just like to say at the outsc;d.: t:hi:'lt what we son happc,-rdng with the institutes and the cornmuni.ty coJ.l.c,1ges i.n t:hE!

Proui.nce is all tied in to the r0. ·Or'gi:Hl'.'i.Lation of our post-secondary education systE!m. We said a couple of years ago that we were going to reorganize the syst.c,1m; notAl we arc,1 not only say:i.ng we are going to do it, we are going to do it. That tmH-lns there has to be change. With r·eference to gentleman 1 s specific thE! point han. abou ·t. the literacy particuJ.arl.y at Peni tentiar·y, I arn i n f o r m h :i. m t: h a t t.ujll be t.akt:Hl over Her VE!r'y t.hat by l .. l.IH 5 Mr:~lj 1./., l9fll} pr·ogrammE:~, MHj (~sty Is pleaSE! to pro 9 r· arnmP thc,1 Avalon Vol. XI ..

Community College, as was thE! i. n h~ n 1: r "i. g h t f r· o m dc11J one:! of reorganizing the pos t·-·s E! condar·y nduci:lt-i.on sysl:r~rn. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Heat", hear! MR. FUREY: A suppl.etTWI'ltary, Mr. SpeakE!r . Ml~. SPEAKER: A--s upplE!frlE!ntary, the hon. thE! member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY : We are gJad to hE!ar·, Mr· . SpeakE!I~, that that will. happen. I would like to ask the minister now, spc,1cifi.caJ.ly, abo1jt the ot.hc::1r fifty J.ayoffs of LE!acher·s t: h r o u g h o u 1: t h E! P r· o v :1. n c (:! f r· o Ill community collegE!S. Can the mi. n i. s l.

CH' c o n f i. 1" m IAJ h ~:! 1'. h <H' o r· n o t these people will be laid off? If 1: h e:1 y IAri. J. J. b r.~ J. a :i d o 1· r , tAli 11 govEH'nment be pr·oviding t.h~~rn wt l:h rel':rc:·d.ni.ng dol.lrH'S Ol" sornf:! tAJay t.o retrain themselves to gel back :i.nt·.o U10. job mar· k el:? MR. SPEAKF.R : The hon. t.h~~ MinistE!r of Ci-lrE!er· DPual.oprnent and Advanced Studies. MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, for thE! SE~cond tjrnE! .i.n a rOIAI t.l·w hon. gEHl Ll.ernan ·:i.s wrong again. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hoar, hE!ar! MR. MATTHEWS: The total number of staff that tAJi.ll be:~ displacc,H~ is 41. 5.

OF t:h1?. total number displaced, 18 are p<H'rnanE:!nt omploy(;!es, and 23.5 are temporar·y employE!E!S IAJho i"H' E! on contracl:, IAJho knE:'tAJ LhE!Y WE!re l':ernporary tAJhen they werE! h:i rE!d and knew they were going to be terminated. Of the total number No. :JS rn.a3~)

displaced, 14 are displaced as a result of decl.i.ni.ng l':HH'ol.lrnE:~nt, while 27.5 are displaced as a result of ongoing reorganization of our post-secondary education system. As I said earlier, did not just Mr. Speakc;!r, IJJe talk about r'E!or·ganizing our pos L···secondary E:~ducation system. We knE!W there had to be changes l:o trnpJc,~ml':mt: a good post-secondary education sysl'.om i. n l::hi.!; Pr·ovincn dnd i':hc1'1-. thc~r·e IJJould be sorne fallout and, C\ !) C 0 n C 0 I" n (~ d l•\ !) IAJO ~·11" (:! i:l b 01.11:. 1 c1 y o f f !; j n a n y s i t: u a t .i o n , IJJ I'll':~ t h (;!

I" tE~ITipOI"Rr'y Ol" pl':~l"rnanent, l.:hr-~1"0 has to bE! changH if IAJE! are going to r~ F Fr.~ c t. I: h n n n d F>r' o d 11 c i.: , ru:t me 1. y ·t-.1-w studen ·ts, the young pl':~ople of l:.hi.!; Pr·ov"i.ncE~, IAJhorn t~Jf:! IAJiHll·. to pr·l':~pal"l'::' fol" future job markets in 1: hi. s Pro v i. n c ''~ , M r . ~~; p o "' I< C'! r . So IJJ~d.l(,~ a total of 4-1. S arr:~ bEdng displaced, as well upproximaLely 16. S nev.J positions wiJ.l bE! introduced to meet other programme requirements and the net reduction will be twenty-five positions. MR. K. AYLWAfW: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: ThE:~ han. the for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. T hc:·\V(~ a fur·thr;!l" question fOi" t:hr;! Minister oF Career Development and fldvt.·\nC(~d ~)l:udif:!!;, r·o i:hr:' l;:~yoff!; in th(,~ comrnunj ty co]] eg<,~ syster11 r.:1nd l".hr.~ C;:1boi.: tnst·.J.t:ttt:e. ~\lot1ld t h 1':1 rrd. rt'.i:. t <:1 r t e 11 us :if · any money i.n UH:! accottnt~; of Hlr:! comrn11ni.t:y colleges in capital fund'.ing is being transferred t:o operational funding so that they can at least k~:!ep on l::h(;! staFF t:hal:: t:h(~Y hi:ttJo at the present time? Ll836 May 1.2, 1.988 Vol XL MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the MinistE~r· of CarE!er Development and Advanced Studies. MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Sp~~ak(;!r', such s:itual'.:.ions of transferring capital monies to current: expenditure is evaluated on an individual basis. The case thE! hon. gE!nt:lE!rnan, of c o Ul" s (:! , :i. s r e FE~ r r· .i. n g '1:: o i. s t h e Western Community College, which I d :i. S C ll S ~; f.'! d IAJ:.i. [: h h . i. ITI l. i:·\ S t: IAJE:! f:! k sometimE! IA.Jhen hE! suggestE!d to ITI(:! th;:tt l·:hnr'r.~ tMf:'t'O sorn(;! difficulties. The s:il'.:uation lS ·t·.hi'l·l: i:hny ;:·li"O f:!Vf\ltir:'tt:r:!d on dn Jndividual ba~ds.

It is not an tlncomrnon occt . lr·r·r.~ncn. In dJscussions w.ith l-:hl':' pl"f:!sidE:'nt of ~\l(:!!;b:!t'n Coirlrnun:i.ty Coll.Pg~~. thE! member for St. GeorgE! 1 S (Mi". DaiAJf:~) a n d t h <'! rn e rn b o I" F o r· P o r t:. c\ u P o I" t:. , (Ml".

Hodder) who !Ala~> awai''E! of t:ho s 'i.l:ua l·:.·i.on dnd IAJi:Hll·:(~d l: o i:·\ddi"<'•s s it, I '.i.ndicatE!d, since I had to authorize the budget For Western Community College, that to overcome some difficulti<~s that were apparently going to be (.;!nco u n tc~ r E~ d I wo ul. d cons idE! r , upon request, transferring some of their capital. money to operating f u n d s . So that i s v.J he r E! that ·j_ s , Mr. Speal<c->.r. I thi. nk, aqa:in, IAJE' will see the layoffs being minimized in that particular collr:1ge. MR. K. AYLWARD: A !>tlpplomr.~nUH·y, Mr·. Sp(:!c:\l<c'!l". Mf~.

SPEAKER: -------·----A supplementary, the han. t:he rnombnr for S~ephonvillo . MR. K. AYLWARD: Would the minis t.c,H' b:~l1 us if thE! onn .. yoi'\1" bt1sJ.nr.~s~; oclucat.:.i.on progr·amrnE! is being dropped by the Cabot Institute? Could he tell us, also, if that pr·ograrnnH:! was No. 3 5 R1B36

supposed 'to be transferred to the Avalon Community Colloge? tf ~t was supposed Lo b~'! l:ransferred and i. s n o t , c o 11 J. d h e t: e ll u ~; tAJ h y :J. l: was not? MR. SPEAI<F.R : The hon. I: hE! Mi.n:i. ~; h:!l" of· CiH'C,HH' Development and Advanced Studies. MR. MATH! n-JS: Mr . Sped k o t' , be f () r' e c.~ n s lAJP. r' i. n g i·: h r:·1 t. pai''Liculal~ quesU.on, I would likE! to i. nform ti·H~ hon. gE:~ntJ.ornan i·:hat ·the1~e would be:~ ninE! or ten pE!ople affected al.: I'.Jw WE!Stco!r'n Colflmuni.ty College.

Of course, the hon. gent.lc:~man is being a t.:i.ny l:l'i.t unfair in his questioning, becaUSE! he knotAJs why the dlffi.cult.ies ar·e being experienced at Western Community College, in that thero was an unauthorized over-expenditure l~sL year in excess of $300,000 that I, as rnird.s'l:.er, could not t.oler·r~l::e r.lnd wanted to address.

There was no way, ~s Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies, t h a t r tAkl s go i n 9 to a 11 ot.1J t h d 1:: t. o go unnoticed and Jet people ovor·spc:H1d ag •. dn. ~'lo he~ knows Ft1l.J. well what the ~ituation is, b C:! c i'l 1.1 s e h o h i'l !:~ h r:~ d c o n lJCH' !; 1:1 l: ·i, o n s lAd th the pred.d~H1t himself. Now, with regard to business E:~ d u c 1:1 t i. o n , M r . ~) p c~ 1:~ k C'! l" , r·1ll. o lJ fH' Hd ~ Pr-ovinCE! pl~ogr·amrnt~s wil.J. not bf~ C.'lffecl:.ed.

Sl·:ttde:H1ts t.t.d.ll be,~ able access the.,> programmes thE!Y r· e q u i , r E! !~rL i:: h :i. n <.·\ r f~ a s o n db l E! di. stanc~~ fr·orn tAJhc:,re:~ they l'iVE!, and that is t.he whole basis or our community col.lege system. Another very interesting point that thE! hon. gE!ntlE!fnan should knotAt, tAdl.:h the:!

Cabot Instttutr:! part'icularJ.y, is that tAli th most of the layoffs thai·: r!lre ta!ci.ng place,~ we haVE! done a gr·aduate survey of e,~mpl.oyrnent. dnd IAJC:! found I: hat most: 1..1837 May 12, 1988 Vol XL of the positions that are now being r,~l.·.tmi.ndt.0.d, he~rc,~ pr·ogralnrrH'!S are going to be offered in the r:ornrnunii·.y c:ol.J.ogt:!G, +:hH ~~rnploy1r1ent. rate is anywhere betweon 50 and 60 p cH' c: P. n i: f o i" I: h o s (o! g r' "' d u a i.·. ~~ s . So IA.Jha t.

IAJE! ha v c,~ been d o:i ng, and IAJhy c~JE! !> ei: 1.1p l . he,~ Dnpi'1ri:ITI~)I'l J·. oF Car·eer' Development and AdvancHd Studies a n d r o o r g <.·11'1 :i l. n d J·. h C:! p o s 1': .... s e c o n d c:'l r' y systE!rn, ls l:hat lAH:~ I.IJet'E! prepat"ing ~;tt . lde~nt~; fot" jobs l:h;.~t: r:-1r·~~ not thers and we wanted to change that. SOME HON. MEMBERS : 1-le,~cH', h~~cilr! MR. K. AYLWARD : A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, t.he hon . the member for Stephenvjlle. MR. K. AYLWARD : Mi~.

Sp~~i'lkr:!r, tAJouJ.d Lho ITiin"i.s t.c:1r' tell us, with rE!lat:ion to t:he r·ot:r<.·1i.ning to inst:r'uct.or's, i.f any of the instructors who ar'E! being ldi.d off have been offered any other empJ.oyment within the sy~;I·:r,~m. Oi" r·el:l"i'lin'i.ng For· Fu'i':ur'E! ernploymc:~nt ~,~,Jit.hin HH:' sysi:.E!lfl.

I,J o til. d he al. so t:. r~ ll. u :; t f 1:: he reason business courses · are not be:i.ng l:i"i:11'1S Forrod l·:o i·.:hr:• AVi:'1l.on Cornrnun·ity College is I:H:!cr:lus~:! t.he'!Y IAJdn'i'.: l:o ~· r:!r.~ bu :; :J. nus:; te>du c d l.·.:ion c o u r s e d o n r:~ b y Ut E! p r' '.i v <:'J. t E! s c h o o J. s here :i.n this city? MR. SPEAKER: ThE! hon. thE! MirdstE!r of Cat"eE:!t" DeVE!l.optn~H11·:. MR. MATTHEWS: Mr·. Speaker, lr:!i:. tnE! sc:\y again t.hat 16.9 nE!IAJ instructors arE! bEdng hi.r·E~d :in our posi:"- ~'E'!COndc.'.lry education systern, mostly in the community college system .

With regards to instructor retraining, :i. l: s h o u 1 d b ~:! r· C:' c o g 1'1 -i. z E! cl t: h c.~ 1:: No. 35 R1837

provision 1s made within the instructor collective agreement for establishing a committee to address retraining. It i.s a function of a management-union committee, and, of course, anothE!r very important consideration here, when you are talking about retraining is that you are talk i ng collective agreemE:~nts, and, anyone with seniority can bump someone with lesser seniority, so until all that takes place within the s y s t em , ti'H'! n y o u rea 11 y c an no l g (:' l: d h i'l n d 1 e o n t.1J h o 1. ~; '~' tJ a :i. J. a b l r~ f o r retraini.ng.

So lherc~ ·1.•> cl mnnagr'!rnr~ni :--- - ttn .. i.on committee in place to deal wi.th l'. h i'l 1:. , b I I f'. , i. t :i. S 9 0 .i l'l y i·: 0 '1:. i'l k ('! a fetAl tAIEH:~ks before~ tAl(:' recllly know t.•.J h f.'l 1:: "i. n ~; '1.: In u c '1: or' s c t'l n b C'! t" o 1 ·. r' a j_ n r:! d and fol" tAJhat.. W:i th ln(:~gards to pr·i.vr:'l t e school.~;, no sttch th .iny. SOME HON. MEMI3FRS: Hear, hE:1ar! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menehtk . MR. FF.NWICK: Mr.

Speaker, rny qUE!Stion j_s also for the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies, and on !::hE! scliTic~ :.Lssuc-'!s but fr·om a slightly different angle. Mr. Speaker', we have checi<E!d with all i::hE! cornrnt.lntt.y col.l.egr)S acr·os~; the Province, and the only j , n s 1: i. t u l'. i. o n t: h r:'l t h i~l ~; a c 1: 1 1 a lly J. o s 1: COUI"f,E:~S that IAJerE~ not dtH:~ to lack of stttdP.nl:. ~;. Ol" due i:o l:ho f;:·1r:-t-. that thE:~SE~ coursE~s t.uer'P i:(;!mpor'ai"Y t o si.:i'lr't: ud.Lh, i.s 'l:h::! Ci'lbo ·l: Inst:i.tut· E~, and onJy th<;!

Cabot :r n s t ·i. t-.u L e , 1'' n d t: h ,,~ ~; r:! d I" e f:i t"~~t - yc,~ar' cout" ~> (:'S in bu s inc,~s~; c,, d 1.1 c i.-l !:. ·i. o n i.·l n d c o rn p 11 1: c;! I" t-. r:! r' rn ·i. n i'1 J. ~; . My question to the min:i.ster is 1..1833 Mel y 12 , 19 8 B Vol. XL. t.hJ~;: SJnco thr~ AtH·lJ.on Cornmun :i.ty College, the on1y other local onE!, -.i.s not. pick'i.ng up l:.hE!SE! coursE:!S, and since the only other institutions thdt can then teach UtE!Se subj E!Cts ar'E!

Keyin Technica1 Inst.i.tut:c,1, Colnpu-ColJ.E)gE :! or t:h1?. oUIE! r private ones, would not the minister agree that what we are SE!Edng now is a very substantia] privatization of the training of the people in this Province, o s p C'!-C .i. a J. J. y :i. n t: he S l: . John ' s cl t" E:! a , from a public insU tut.ion ctt J.otAJ cost l:o a vr:!r'y h "i. gh cost: . pr· t vdt.e institution? MR. SPEAKER: Th(;~ hon . th~~ Min:istE!r of Car' E! E!r D ('!vel o prnc.:! n 1'. i'1 n d Ad tJ <Hl c r,~ d s tud t E'! s . Ml~. MATTHF.:WS: ------y·-Mr.

Speaker, as I sa i d in i" r'! f E:! r· r~ n c t:! l: o ''' pro v "i. o t.t ~; q 11 e s t i. o n , such is not thE:1 casE!; tt:. ·.:i.s not.: cl dP.l:ibol" D-i:r,~ attc :!trlpt t:o pttl'.: such training over to privatE! schoo1s. I g 1 1 E:1 s s tAl h cl t. tAJ C:! h r:'l v o to r o rn f'! rn b <~ r' is that private schools are a r E:~ a l. i. t y i. n t: h "i. s P r· o v i n c E~ . A s well, as minister w:.Lth responsibility for private schools, WE! wilJ. bE! introducing a now b :1.1.1 :i. n a F etAJ IAHH'! k s to strengthen The PrivatE! SchooJ.s A c t . ·nw y <:l r· <'! f o r· r ('! d 1 , a n d a s thE!

MinistE!r of CarE!E!r DeVE:'J.oprne nt and Advanced Studies I am going to do IAJhatE!Ver I can t:o assurE! qual.i.Ly Jn privdte schools . BtJt. it :i.n no u.Jay rE•fJects that there is a move awny from the public post-secondary education system t ot.,Jr.'ll"cl ~ ; tho pl":i. v i'll:c ~; c hoo J ~; .

T dm s.:·li::i.~;f " i.Od, Mr. ~)P('!i'lker', Lhal:: students who want to access course s can do s o within d reachablE~ d:i.stancc,~ fi"Oill t.uhE!r'e thE:!y l·i 11 r~. n '> r ~; .:·l'i.d. t h,., t ·i ~ · ; 1:: ho pur·pose for· thE! cornrnun-.ity col] .eg('! s y s t. r~ rn , +.: h r~ 1" n a !; o n 1.11 h y 1~1 E~ h ,,, 1.1 e !:: h ('! provincial inst-itutes, and the No . 3 ~; R1838

reason why we have the university . So 1t is not going to have a negative effect on progrRtmnes or student~;. Mt". ~)pc.;!aker. MR. FFI\JWlCl<: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary . MR. SPF.JlKFR: A !; up p J E!rm~ n tar y • t he:~ hon. the mc,~mbc~r for Mon'i.he!<. Ml~ . FFNWT~:K: Mr. Speaker, it is well known, tAli. 1~ h t h o fa i 1t.11~ o o r t: h e H t.H' b i n g o r School of Business last year, that sorne of ti·H:!SC'! pt~tvdte schools are in trouble, that they are running out of studE!nts and so on.

Would the minister not adm:lt, given, for example, that the vice-president of Keyin Technical College is Ralph Tuckc,~r. a for·mc,H' Ccll'ldid.:l+.:~~ for· the PC Par·ty, that alJ. we ar'E! seeing here is a massive privatization of the educationaJ. syshHn dt: th;,1t l.Pv~~l.. a gi.f~. by the Tories over there to their budd-i.es t:o 1m1kr,~ sttrl':~ that. they cr:-:111 continue on with what have been very v~riable, by the minister•s own comments, educational programme,~!; atw:~y ft"om i:h(:! lri.gh q u a J J t y pI" o g r a rrnm~ s t. hat are bEd n g of·FtH't~d <:·11.: l·:h(~ Ct.·1bol. Ins l:'.i. l'.11 Lo?

MR . ~3PFAl<FR : nw han. the,~ Minister of Crlrec"'r' Development and Advanced Stud i es. MR. MATTHEWS: Mr . Speaker, the han. member is agctin being very unfair now, tr·y:ing to lie in a candidatE! who ran :in a by··-olt~ct"i.on a fetAl monl".:hs ago wit.h what is happening with post-secondary education in the Province and in private schools, one of which that particular candidate happens to be part otJJnE!r. I tlri .nk l·.:ha t: "i.S uc;!r'y l.otAJ on behalf of the hon. member. L1 a39 M<:~ y 12. 19 a a lJol XL RealJ.y, he should takE!

Uw htgh roctd, because there is no connection, no link IAJhatsoE!VE!r in 1~1 h i:'l L i. s h r:·1 p p f:! n i. ng . And I think it is very unfc:dr, Mr·. Spnc:·11<et~, and I 'l".h'i.nk l':ht'il: :is <'11.1 I am going to say about that. MR. fEN~~ICK: Mr·. Speaker·. MR. SPEAKER: n final supplementary, l::he hon . the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK : Mr . S p oak t'! r· , I.JJf! u n d f~ r· s t d n d t: hat tuition fE!E!S clt thE! Cabot Inst:i.t.:utf~ ar·c,~ about $21.J.O t:.o $250 per semester.

Would not the minister· agr 't=!P that cotnparablE! tuition fees at the prjvate :i.nsl':.itut 'i. on~; r·angt:! cll'lYIAJhE!r'e Fr·otn $1,800 to $3,000 a yE!ar, and that thes(:! actions on t.hc,~ par·t .: oF. t:h·.:i.s government means that rnr.ly~H:~ fif'Ly or· 100 s l::udE!I'll~s IAJho tAr.'i.sh to· take these business education courses Lhat have been cancelled at the Cabot Institute wj.ll notJJ haVE! l':.o b (,~a in i·: h 8 (~ n 'l:'. "i.l" (~ C 0 ~; i: 0 n 1:: h H t r backs and make profits for the:i.t~ bttddJes? MR.

SPFAKF.R : The han. thE,~ M'inJster of CarE!t :! l" DovelopJrtC:'nl·: and rldl;ancc:!d St.udif:!s. MR. MATTH I:WS : No, cer·tainly not, Ml". Spl':~akE!I~. r h ;:~ t c: e r· t a i. n l. y 'i. s n o 1.·. r'l f d c t·: . A n y student who wtshe s to access a pr·og raJI'Ime l:ha t IAJi'l ~; I : H~ ".i . ng off (,' t"<,~cl by thE! Cabot Institute can do so 1:·1t: a cotmnun-i.l· ·.y col.l.c:!qe tn the Province at a campus within reasonable distance from where they reside!. Perhaps the han . mE! ITt bE! r' wants t:o b I':~ r· e t: r· a -L n ~~ d f o r· a j o b IAI·:L t. h Western Community College at Bay No. :!tl RUl39

St. George so t hat he can run c:-l g r.l i. n s t L h o rn r,Hn b o r' f o r' P o r 1-. i?l u Port, Mr. Speaker. Perhaps that ts I~Jhr"tt th:i.!; -Ls i?ll.l aboul·., :i. F ho wants t o get personal about it and stc~rl: throwing slurs dcro s s thP. House about people who run for different p a rties . MR. SIMMS: -----He has had about six year s off running in elections. MR. MATTHEWS: YE!S, hP has c:tbout s:l.x yE:1ars off in U m(~ . MR. SPEAI<FI~: Order, _ pl01c1s~1! Ml\.

MATTI-IEV..IS: -----··-----·-But, Ml" . ~3p(; !akE!r, IAJhat thE! hon. g e 11 1::1. < ~ rn r:-l n i . ~; !> a y "i. n g , t ~1 r ~ l" e "i. !; n o t I" u t. h to it 1~1 hat. so<'! v c,1 r . T h <·H' (~ ·.i. s no c o n n r~ c L "i. o n . A n d s t 11 c:l n n I: !; 1~1 h o IAJ c\J'lt to accc,1 ss prograrnnH?.S in tlri s Prov "i. ncc,1 cdn do so bncc.-111!>0 of ·l··.ho ird ·U attves of this adrninis ·l:rat:ion Jn l~f:!OI"9i'ln""i.z"i.ng OIJr po~;t. -·!>C:!COI'ldc1Y'Y education system . SOME HON. MEMBF.RS: Hear, hE!ar! MR. W. CARTER : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for TIAii 11 i nga te . MR. W.

CARTER: ------·--~--·--- M1~. Speaki'::~r. rny qu(~stion gOE!S to the Min i s te r of Fish e rio s (Mr. Rideout). Last Friday in thE! H o 1.1 s E:1 , d u r' J n g 1-: h o s p o c .i i'l J. d e b '-~ t r,~ on the Canada France fishery d i. s p u t-. ( ~ , t-.1·1<,1 P r· r:m1i 0. Y' 1: a b J. <~ d a co fly of a letter he sent to the Rt. l-Ion. Jor~ Cl<.-11"1<, i .n IAJh --i. ch he:! dE:'nounc~>. d t h(>. f ~= !d E :!r·al gov~~rnrnE: !nt:' !; J d C k 0 f d C t: ·i_ 0 n l : 0 C:! X 0 r' t·. pI" 0 S S I II'' Cc' on France to bring about a 1. 1. B 11.0 VoJ.

XI . s atisfactory settlement of t he Fi.sh(H'Y and boundar -y d :i ~; pul·.:e. NOIAJ thE! M:inister of FishE!ries as IAIE!ll rni?ldo some pretty strong s tc1 teme nts, in fact, threatE!n E!cl to cancel c erta i n bil.a t eral agreements that exist I:H:d:IAJE!On our tiAJO counl :. r.iE:!S. Mr. Speaker, my question to 1-:he rn i n:i.stEH ' i .s t.hi.s: Lr:~st n:ight on q Radio the Minister of Fish e rie s appc,1ars t:o have-?. tak t" n e1 lrlOI"<:! reasonablE! and a rnor'E! conc:il:i.a i:. Ol''Y po!d t"i.on. MR. SPEAKER: Or·d c,~ r', pl. ('!i:t ~' E!! MR. W.

CARTER : M1" . :ip eaknl", :r ''Hrl gt:!I:.U .ng 1-:o 1ny qUE!St:i .on . Wj.J.J. thE! min : isl:c-:~r 1:.1'::~11 t .h(:! Hou!'''' 1~1haL hr:1!> h~1ppC:!I"1C:!d i n l.:he mE:!i:'ll'lt.i iTlH to bring about this chang e of 1:1 1::t:i.t:11de ? r.s h('! a1~1ar·e o·f r:1ny action bE•ing taken or· contE!rnpJ.atc;•cl by 0 t t aL~JC:1 I ~ h r'1 t lAri. l l. b r' :i n g about this conver s ion? MR. RIDEOUT : Mr . Speaker· . MR . SPEAKER: The hon . the Minister of Fisher:i.es . MR. RIDEOUT : Ml".

SpE!aker, no doubt, the hon . gentlemi'ln, "i.f he were to review the who 1 e Y' e c o r d 1 a s t F r' ida y , IAJOt.lld !<r1o1~1 and Tam SUI"('! he kno1.us; it is just For' othE!r r e clsons l:hal.: hn i s framing l.:he question thE! way h E! is ·-·· thc"lt thE! Pr·ern-.-i.c;!r' r:·1nd rny~;oJr, 1:-1nd T guc:!sS basicall.y everybody who s poke from ·l:hi.s s--i.de of l:lw I·IOII SE!, wc;!l"e unequivocalJ.y calling on 1-:he . Cr:HJ e l" I'Hrlr:! 1'1 t of C r:-11'1 Ad <.·1 to ll s Cc! i'l 1. J of Lhc,1 d:ipl.omat : J.c and ~1conom:i.c l<,' U.:!r's a u c:d. l ''1 b l n t:

c) i. '1: l: 0 1'-. r' y 1.: 0 b r' --L 1'1 g about a change of heart and a 1\Jo. 3 5 R 1 B '1-0

change of mind and a more reasonable stance at the bargaining table by the French. That.: was our p o s i 1:. "i. on 1. r.t s 1'.: IAJCo~ A k , that is our position this week. HH~ only connneni: i:h<:1t'. I l"f:!Ci:-11.1. making -late yesterday was somAI··.hJ.ng to Uw r;!f·Focl: l.: h;:-11· ~~H-) had br:~en trying to ge:d: or· Canada had br~ E~n t:ry ·i. ng l:o ge1'. c 1 a r· :i. f i c rl t i o n o u t o f P a r· i s i:l s t. o IAJ h C:! t b f:! r· or no l: 1··. h n r , .. c,, n c h i. n i·: r:! n d o d to impose the permits that were b (~ ·j 1'1 9 t d 1. k C;! d r:~ b 0 II -1:. 0 lJ 0 r• [: h 0 1. r:l S 1·.

SE ~ V(:'raJ. di:'lYS . Thei"Co~ IAii'\S SOlliE! indica "1:. J. on 1·: haL: 1: h C:! r· r,1 lfli'l y h i:llJ c,1 been some delay because of the r· c;! s i. g n a 1:·. J o n o f o n C'! go lJ E! r n rn (~ 11 '1: r:-1 n d t I·H~ s IAH:1 iH' i n g i n o f a n c;!IAJ o 11 E! , t h a t k i.nd of t.h"i.ng, (:1nd C<:~n(:ldd had rn1:-1de sorne comments in that regard that that might be the case. So .if ther'E! is I will try to Spc->.aker. MR. W. CARTER: any o f·.hE!r' deal with que:1st.::i.on it, Mr. A supplementary, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han . thE! mE! rnb e r· for fiAJi J.l.i ngnlco1 . MR. W. CARTER: Ml" .

SpE~ak(:1r, T wondc,~l" has thE! rni.nts l: (:!r, i::hcoHl, lfk\d(~ I" (:1 p I" (:1 s e n t: a t j o n t o M r . C 1 a r k a n d t o l::h('! fodf'!I"F.Il go,Jr:!r'nrnon 1: l:o l'lli:lybc! bl":-i ng about a s·lturJ'I":i on IAJh(:1r·e th~~ h 'i :; t-.

C) r· "i. c Y' C! 1. d 1:. '.'i. 0 n !) h "i, p ·t: h r:-1 L: h r:l ~; exist:ed be t ween L:he fishermPn of S 1: . Pi. r,1 Y' 1~ n M:i q 11 0. l on d n d N~~IAJfoundJ.and, thr.'lt ldnd of an iH'r·ange:1rnc;!nl ::, can conttn11e? Or i.f the fl"ench authoriU .E!S J.nsist that Nc.;!IAJfoundl.and vc->.SSE:11.s bA J.tc~Hlsc,~d, then uJill Canada foJ.low suit? Wi.l.l. .it, too, insJst thc:·\1.: UE!SSE~l.s from St. Pierre and Miquelon be licensed to operate in Canadian IAJi'.lters? Or bE!tter still, Mr. L184l. May 1. /. , 1. 9 a a Vol.

XL SpeakE!r, what action has he takE!I 'l to may be bring rc:!S t:or(:1 l:I'H;! s ta t:.u s quo, where the old historic situation will continue to exist b(~ l:l.~lcH;!n our two pHople? MR. ~iPEAK~~R : ThE:1 hon. the Min:isb:!r of FishE!r:ies . MR.

RIDEOUT: ltJo"ll, r.llr·. ~)pnr.thH' I Lhe hon . gentleman again knows that that h r:-1 ~; con~; ·i. :>ten i : 1. y b t:! (~ n o 11 r· p o ~; :1. ·t· ·i on throughout this whole dispute, i·. h i':l i: o v ~~I" ~ ~ h o l n s 1·. n 1.1 rn b o I" of decades, and in accordance with S'C:1lJ 0 r· a 1 d I"~~ i C J. f.!~ ; 0 f 1: hE' 1. 9 '/ 2 Treaty, inshor'C:' ftsherrnE:1n fr·olfl bo Lh Uw Cani'.lcla, i.. e. N.::1wfoundland, South Coast and thE! residents of St. Pierre and Miquelon have bE!E!n able to fi s l1 freely back and forth on e"i.ther side of the line.

It has consistE'!ntly bE:!c->.n 011r pos·it. :ion that thE! stcltus quo ought to r· c-Hn r.l i. n . And we have communicated that both verbally and in writing to the government of Canada on a l'lUrnbE!r' of occasions over the last few days.

Howeuer, we have gone on to say that: if France intends to change the rules in thE! m:i.dd1E! of 1·: h r,, g r:-1 1 no , a n d :i. n !> t: "i. t u 1':. c;! cl licencing system or a permit :; y !> t r,1 rn f o I" N e IAJ F o ll n d 1 r:1 n d lJ ('! s s <'! l s , then, while we would perfer the !; 1: i:l i".ll !) y II() I i. r i'. h (.~ r"lll f'! ~; a r· c;• c h i'.Hl g (:' d t. h E:HI 0 b u i. () u s J. y I 1: h E' I" E! lAd l ] h;:~'H' 'l:o br.~ a q11 :i d fli"O quo and IAJE! will have to demand that Canada J.nsti .i::1.1l:o i:hr'! !; ,:-wle r·(~q "i. me. T'h;,,,t. is not OIH' pr·c,'f€:H'rE:H:l position, Ml".

S p c~ i:~ !< r~ r· . 011 r· per· f C'! I" t' E:! d p o s .it.: .ion is that the historic status quo l·.:hc:lt has c:!x:is l:.od bc,~'i::wec;!n o1.1r· tiAIO countries remain . But if one pc:u·ty unilaterally, then haVE! to follou.J suH: No . 3

I) changE!S that obv:i.ously IAJE! as much as IAJe 1na41

would prRfer not to. MR. SIMMON~>: Mr . SpoAkr:'r . MR . ~3PF.AKFR: Th(~ hon. the m~~rnber fo1~ For·tune - H o r· mi. t. c:-1 g r,~ . MR. SIMMONS: -------·-Mr·. SpeakE!r, I too have a que,stion for the Minister of Fisheries.

ThE! illll'fiE!diate issue here, I IAJould sugg~~st to h-.im and he nrighl:: agrfH-:l, is that a number of trawler skippers, -Lncl.ud.ing W.il.lo119hby Bolt and George LaVallee in my d i s t r i c t , a n d C <"' c R .i. d <-:lou I: d ot.~J n :i. n the member for Grand Bank 1 s di.str'i.ct:, among oi':hf~r·!;, hc.·llJE! had their fishing activity i. n t: r:! r r u p t c:' d , a n d l·.: h r,~ "i. r· o v c,~ I"· · r· J. d "L n g pre ·- occupation is to get back f i , !) h i. f1 g I (.o1 ~~ 1". h ~~ (~ i'\f" J. 'l, () S i ·. p 0 !; !; i , b l (~ oppot"tun:i ty.?

May T ask th(~ m:inis'l:et", vc,H'Y SFH'!c·i_f·i.cr'tll.y IAJhi'll: ha!; i:ho rrr.i.n:i. sh::!l" done->. jn the past feiAJ days, sinCE! this "i.SSII(~S bl.r-~tAJ ld!>1: Th11r·sday, to gp,t those,~ ruen back fishing at: the oru· 1. i 0. s 1:: p o s s :i b J. c;, o p p o r i": u n i i": y ? MR. SPF.AI<F.:R: The hon. the Mi.nister of FisheJ"ies . MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Spea.kr:H', I agrE:~E:~ IAJ"i. th H1e hon. gentleman that while the whole question Ls most pressing, obviously the most pressing

part 0 f t h ~~ q U C-'! S t .i. 0 n cH' e t h 0 S e V e S S C:~ l S who ought to bE! fj shing now on the othpr s ·i.dH of the,~ l inc->. and have-'! not been able to fish because they do not knOIAJ IAJhc;!thc>.r· or· no+:. they u.Jould be aJ"rE!Sted, as IAJas the Maritimer on Thursdr.·1Y, J: believe, of 1ast WEH!I<. E v or· y Fl"iday, Sa t.ur·day U B42 ~;·.1.ngJ.o w-:Jth cli:'ly thE!

Mi:tY 12 I 19 8 8 si.ncn lr:-1s 1: ~~xcc.;!pt:i.on of ~~~ o h •'1 v o b r,, n n Vol XL. in contact on several occasions l~r i. t h L h c,~ D (:~ par· t )'()(:~ n I: () r F X t (~ In n <:11 Affrl'il"S, through my dc;,par·tm(:!n L, thi"Oilgh TnLnr·golJer·nrnt:!nl-:r:·\l Affi'1·Lr·s, thr•ough l:hE!

Premier· 1 s office, and IAJi.·l·.h l:hc,~ fc:,dr-~r·~:1l Depar·t.rnc:,nt oF Fisheries and Oceans, trying to g Ed: o wl: o f 0 t. tJ,11AJ a IAJ I'H:~ t ~HH' o r n o t. the have a response from their diplomatic note to Paris asking France' to clarify wl·wthE:!r or not thf~Y WE!rE~ go-Jng t.o C<:'ase and desi~t from this foolishness of institut"i.ng a permit. systern.

WE! hdV('! bE!OI'l i. n Cab"i.f'l(;!t Fl"OrTI a d 1 clock this morning until 2:50 th-L~; aftE!r·noon, bc1l·: up unt:il t:h:is rnornE:~nt or· th~~ last U. rnl':~ I c he c k c;! d , iH' o 1.1 n d ?. : 3 0 <H' 2 : 11.0 t: o day we are still informed by Ottawa Lhdt_ lhl'!l"n ha~; not b<'''''n a r·c,~spon~>c'' from the' FrE!nch.

Now, IAJE~ havE• 1·:1-H'' 1r1 b u q g n d l: o c:l e <.·1 i: h ; IAH~ h c:w e L h o phorH-:lS r·ung off the hook; aLl oF 11s hdlJO b(~C:'n i:aJ.k:ing l·:o +. :hc,~m; 011r officials are onto them several 1~:i.HH~~; i:\ di:·1Y OlJr:!l" 1:hP l.dS 1: hAlO or· three days, so we ar·e tr·ying Lo gel: i'l n r'Hl 'WJP.I" r:·md 0 l: I"J~I~Ji'l 'ins -.i. s 1: s that it is trying to gc''t an a n s 1~1 c,~ r· .

P o s s -L b 1 y , ~1 s 1.: h c;, spokesman for the Fisherrnen 1 s Uni.on · i.:; qt1otr-:'d d!; ~;c.~y·i. ng today, the c,ha ng E! in g ov E! rniTIE! nt may havE! so m(~ t-. h --j_ n g L o cl o IAJ:i 1-: h j -t-.: , b u 1:. I do not know. All I do knoiAJ is t:hat <:1 s o f t·. he t .i.1 n (! I c a 1 n c;, 1:. o t hE! House, Ottawa says thE!Y sU 11 do not hav~ an answer from Paris. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker· . MR. SPEAKER : A Si.ippl.c:,rnnnti:1r·y, t.hE! hon thE! member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR.

SIMMONS : Thf~ min:istE:~r, in r·E:~spondJng to rny Fr··i. r,,nd for· T1Arill:inq;:-1te ITidcl(;! rc,~fc~r·E:~nce to IAJhr-.:~t he t .hough'L IAJcls l:h0. rno!; t pr-:H'i:'i.rHHJI: qllcd:('! -r,--o,n lri.111 No. 3 5 R18'1-2

y c~ s t e r d a y . I s u b rrl"i. t 1: o h "i. m i: h c,1 r C'! was one other when he said - MR. SPEAKER: 0 r cl e r· , p 1. e i.H ~ :! ! Would t.hCo1 hon. lllCo1rnbEtr' pl.E:1as~~ pose hjs question immediately? MR. SIMMONS: "y <::1 ~;~r-. -S ~H~ a I< e Y' . - I~ I h ('! n h (,1 s d 'i. d y C'! s t Co11n d .:·1 y (~

l) Co' n i. n 9 I 11 We, the goVE!rnrn~~nt· of Canada. 11 Ml~. SPFAI<FI~ : Or·dcH', pl.c~i"\SP.! I hr:wr~ a s lu,1d l : hf~ hon. mc,1111bcH' t. o pose'! his supplement: c~ry and he C 0 n l':i. rll.ICoH~ 0 n 1.o1Ji. t h C~ X i:l C '\.: 1. y t: hE! S d lrlfo1 sentence as he was before. I ask h"i.m no1~1 to posc,1 hi.s suppl.~~rnC'!ntr:\r'y or I will recognize somebody else. Thco1 hon. t.:he rnernber· fo1n Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Sir . Mr.

Speaker, will he get a moment from the away for IAWighty player b~:!:i.l'lg responsibility of being a on t:he:1 i .n t.erna · I: "L onr:~J. s l:.mgc,1, the Government of Canada? SOME HON. MFMBERS : ques 1-. ion~;! q11r~s 1:. i.on!;! MR. SPEAI<ER: Olnclel", p] (,!13.5<::1! MR. SIMMON~~: W'i.J.J. hr,1 r't'!'\".IH'n t:o i'.hc-~ ITIIIndr:\1'18 tas !< of being provincial Fisheries MJ. n i. ~' t. C'! r· for j 11 s 1:. a f C:!I~J rni. n 11 1-. f~ !; ? ThE:!SE~ pc,wpJE~ a1"e still not. fishing.

Wi lJ. he do something ver·y spe:1cific, and ask the Governmont of Cctnacla to advocate that a blind eye be turned here for the interim, something that L1843 May 12, 1988 Vol XL will allow these people to get back fishing in the nE!Xt fe1.o11 days? I r·eal.-Lze th~:!re c:~rc;! lc~rr::JE!r issues, but the irmTIE!dtatE! onE! 'is that those people st"Lll are not fishing. Would he focus on that one for th 0 l'lfo' x t F eiAJ ho1n ·· !> ? MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the Minister of Fisher i es . MR.

RIDEOUT: I r.w1 no i: g o :l n 1!1 1.: o 1:1 1.1 o 1~1 d n y q 1.1 o h;! s from the bon. gc,Hlt:l c;nnan Lo stand on l'.ho ptlbl :i.r: Jnnr:oi"rl IAJ:i i·houl'.·. l.: hn -i. l" bE!J.ng coi"Y'E!cted. Hf~ a t LC'!I'Ilpt:c,1cl t·.o r' r,~ f r:! I" i·. o <:1 q 11 o l: f'! y n !) 1·: t'! i" d 1:·\ y , 1~1 h P n l sa'id 11 1AH:1 11 , cHld l.oiHHlt: on Lo sr~y II IJ.J h f~ n .T. s r:~ y I IAH'!

I I rrH:! r'\1'1 t h r:• Go v e r n rn (Hl t o f C a n a d a , " o f IJJ ~J:i c h tAH'~ h i'\ p p r:! n L o b o ''' p r:·\ r· ·1:. • f~ ".i. g h 1:'. l y o r· wrongly, knowingly or otherwise, I~Jr'! c\l"C~ a pe1rl:: of Canada, and Canada deals with those matters IAJ"i. t h o u I" i. n p 1 1 1: , 1·1 o p f'! f ul. 1 y , o n 1:: h E! international stage. Mr. Speaker, lE!t TnE! SclY t:o thE! hon. gr~ntl.EHnan that I have bf~~1n talking to at least two of those· fi.shermc,~n .invol. Vf~d. Tam on top of thE! sittJaU .on daily, hourly. I n C:! e d n o t t.

"' !< e a n y 'i. n s 1.: r· u c t :1. o n s from thE! hon. gE!ntleman about.: , IAJhc-~thc,H' rny l"olo J . ~; Jn Nf~t~Jfoundldnd and Labrador, or whether it is pdr t '.i.c'.'i . p<~' · l":.'i.ng i·.hi"OIIgh l':hco! Nc:'l t-. ·.:i.onal Government on an international s t d g 0. , o r 1~1 h o t: h e r· :i i: i. s o n M ''.t 1" :; o r· the Moon. I happen to knoiAJ, Ml".

S p r~ '" k e r' 1 ,,~,, h i:'1 I: l r: i:'ll'l cl o . 1: k n OlAf what lAIC~ have been ti"Y'.i ng to do, as d go 'J r~ r· n mr:! n '1: , 1: h r· o u q h Int:f:1rgovernm~:!ntal Affa:ii"S I 'l:.hl"ough 1: h o P t' r,1 rn :i. c,1 r' 1 !; o F F ·i c r:! 1 d n d t: h r' o 1.1 q h my office. No stone has been left llnl·.tlr'nOd r:~nd no !;i':orw IAJ"i.ll I:H'! l.f:!·ft untur·m1d, Mr·. Speaker. If Wf~ held so rn r,1 p o 1. .it "i. c <.·\ J. co ... o p C'! r· a 1·.: i. on ·.:i. n this Province, Mr.

Speaker, I~Jher•eby !AJ(~ IAIOI.Il.d bf'! i.'tbl.e 1.: 0 dt least speak w:l.th a common front f:1nd unil: : y on sotn~~ shar'f:!d No. 3 S R 184·3

j IH' .. i.sdi .c l·:i.on, Oppo~d. Uon, Ml". 1111 J: i. k H SpeakE:H' ., _ SOMf. liON. MFMAf.RS : lleiH', hco~clr! MR. RJDF.OUT: the,~ t h e n ---we rn i g h t h a v e s orne c o n s 1: ·i. 1:.11 1.: i. o n a J. r· :i g h t s :J. n 1·: hi . s rc~gard, Ml". Speak~H·, t.o protect the f i shery of Newfounrl1and and Labrador. That is what we have beE!n try:i.ng to do ov<-:H' h~H'E!, but in the interim we are dealing with t he reality of the here and now and nobody can point a finger and say we have not been trying to do, with tools that ar'E! availablE! to us, the bc~ s t IAJE! can do for· thosE:~ fishermen, Mr.

Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Her..1r, hE!ar! - Mf~. SIMMON~> : A f i naJ supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. !3PEAJ<ff~ : A fina l supplementary, the han . U10. mc,HnbP.r' for· FortunP. HArm'i. · r-. ay(~ . Ml~. ~HMMONS : PoliticaJ co-operation, yes . Poli .U .Ci'll dtipl:icH -. y, no . SOMF HON. rJIFMR FB_:<:2 : Her.H', h~:H:'Ir! MR. SIMMOI\IS : That is what we are asking the mi.n "i. sl·.er: W:i.ll he sl:.op be 'i. ng politically duplicitous about th-:is, Mr·. SpE!f.~kc~r·? PREMIER PF.CKFORO: A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPF.AKER: Ordl':11~, pJ.ease! A po:i.nl: . of or·dr; !r, t.h r:! hon. l· :hf:~ Prmnier.

I. 1 8 L~lJ. May 12, 1988 Vol XL PRFMIFR Pf.CKfORO: Mr•. SpeakEH', l:.hE:1 mNnbel" is on a !; 11 p p l e rn r;! n 1-. ''' r· y , h n s h o 1 11. d <:·\ s k h ·i. s q 11 e:! !; -t-.-i. n n IAJ :i. 1·: h no fll' ' 0. c:un b l. e . MR. FFFORD: l-Ie,~ j11sl : ask<;!d i.t . MR. PECKFORD:: No, hE:~ did not . MH. SIMMONS: Fo r the benef it o f t h e Mr·. Sp e aker I thE! qur::~ st:ion I w·i.J.l I t'!B__:_ ___ s P E A K E -~ : OrdE!r, pJ.ease1! P r· ~' !l l d. e r , star ' tE!d, The point of order is well taken - MR. SJMf1.10N~1 : No, it is not . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. ~3PF.AKFR : I beg your pardon? MR.

BAIRD: lie ~;c:-1 · i.d, 1 No, J 1·.: J.s not. 1 MR . SPEI'lKER: I ask the hon . mE!I'nb<-:'r to wH:hdi~aw l:. hflt cornrnnnl -. . MR. SIMMONS : Mr. Sp o akor, T shH'l:~:·d my quc:!st : -Lon IJ.J:ith, 'Will h~~ stop bEd.ng . 11 That i. s a quest i. on I s ·i r· ! MR. SPEAKER: Or·der, pJ.ease! I have asked the hon. member - MR. SIMMOW?: I IAJ'ithdral.u, S:i.r. Ml" . Sp~~ Hk~~r. l:: hG qu~~st: - ion "i.s, as it was a moment ago, will the rn :i. n i. s t: f! in !; 1". 0 p bE:~ "L n ~~ p o ·1 i. [·. :i. c ,:l l. J. y No. 3 5 R 1.8t~4

d u p 1 i c i t o 1.1 s 1 o n g e n o u g h t o g i. v e those trawlermen at least the time Of day, IAJ~l"i. ch hE:! IAJOI.Il.d not giVE! them yesterday when they called him? Now, let us not stand in this House and talk about what you have donE!. Yoll have dono Sl,wet nothing on this one and it. is tirn.::1 you star·t.C:!d. MR. SPFAKFR : 0r'd(:1r, please! MR. SIMMON$.: I ;:~ s k l: he 1ni. n i. s L (:1 r' , Mr· . ~1 p P ,:~ k f:! r· , IAI:J J. J h (-:1 ·-· PREMIER PFCKFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker . Mf? . SPEAKF:R: A p o :i n I of o r· d c-?. r , t: h e h o n . HH~ Pr·om i c;!r.

PREMIER PECKFORD: NOIAJ, t:.ho hon. lfH:!Hib~H' can vrH'Y IAH:1l.l. say that he started off his supplc-:!TTII:Hlta ry q1H1st i.on 1.1.ri. t:h 1 Will, 1 and if that mE:1ans that thr~re ar'E! no full. stops or per·~i.ods in between, the question can go on until twelve o 1 cl.ock tonight . I as I< thE:1 pr·ot.c-:!C tion of the,' ChaJr for the minister and for this side of Lhe !·louse, and for· i".:l·w hon. member to get on with his question ·i. n brHv t t.y . .MR. SIMMS: And do not be ~rgumentative . MR .

SPFAKFR: To that po :i nt of cH·der, t.h€:1 hon. rrH:11nb CH' d J. d s t r.1 r '1: 1,ri 1-. h <.·1 l. e g ·i L ·i. l'fld 1: e qur~stion, btJt: hr~ d:id no t stop at 'i.:hc:lt. l · lf ~ CiH'Y'"i.(~d 01'1 ITii:o\!dng i:l r.pEH:1Ch, Thr:! hon. Lhr,1 fllf~lnbnl" for· For1 :111"lC'! Hr~l"rniti:I~JO. MR. ~:HM~10NS: Ll8ll .S May 12, 1988 Vol. XL I shall try again, Mr. Speaker. M r· . S p c,1 a k c;! r· , tAl t l. J. 1·.: 1·1 f'!

M :l n t s t:. l'! r· o f FishE!rlE!S confir·rn that yE!Sterday he scarcely had the time of day for those trawlE!rrnen, tJ.Jhich is to h i. s shalflf'l? al.lt., ITI(H'e l:.o UH:! point, will he now undE:H' tai<E!, Ml". Spoaker, ~o do something spE!Cifjc? I ask him to ju s t For· g H t 1:. h r;! po 1 i t :i. c a1 r· he Lor· ·i c f or· a mtnute . ThE! fisherrnE!n have h eld r"1nOI.I <.:ih of "i.L:. W"i ll hH do sornothing specific, Mr. ~\pE!C".II<E!I", l"".O hr,1lp grc!l·.: i: ho:;r :! fi. s h~: !I " Jnc;!n back fishing at the earliest pos s ibl e c)'p p or· 1·.11 rl"i. i·: y? SOMF HON. MEMBERS : Hr;!dl'', hec·ll"!

MR . SPEAKER: T h A h o n . I·. h e M :i. n "i. s l: o r· o F F ""i. s h (;! r· "'i. ~:! :; . MR. RID EOUT: Mr· . ~ = ; p f~ a!< E! r , l. fd: rne , F ·i.r-s 1·: of a 11 , say to thE! han . gentlE!fn~HI that:. h E! can rno Ll t h pol. :i. l: i. c r.1 J. co--op f~ r· a I: .. i o n all he wishes, but political co--opc:H'r.ttion is no subs t.tt.u tc;! for political stupidity - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hc:H"r, hei'.lr! MR. RtDEOUT: -=.-·--a·~·the .. _tr·an s fer, somE:' say, Ml" . SpHakf :! r', otJ ('!I" t: hE~ mo st :impor·t clnt. r·esour·ce of this Pr·ovinCE! .

W hen a political. pdr t y ·ln Lh i s Prov i nce stands and opposes that, that:. :i~; pol. ·i.'l·.""i r:r.d. •;i:11pid "'i. i".y oF l:.I·H'! h"i.gi'H '! S 1·. Ol"der . ~>OME l·lON. MF.MBERS: HfH~I", hE:1al"! MR. RIDFOUT: Now, let me deal wi th t h e o p r~ r· c:l t-. ·i tJ o p H r I" o f L h n q tl (,! s t i. o n , Mr·. Spe:1aker·. Was I Ci'l11E!d by one of l::hosr ;! gf~nt:lE: !rnnn yf~St(:!r'di:·\y? If rny book is corr·ect, YE!StE!r·day tAJa s R 18 4-S

Tuesday, and the answer is no . SOME HON . MEMRERS: YHs l:el"d;::~y was Wr~dnesday. MR . R.IDF.Ol.IT: -y~~~~ · l.E:H'dii-~~- IAICIS WE:~dl'l<o~sday. The anstME:~i" : i.~; no. T t1Jd~> c:;::~l.lr;!d on Mondr..1y, Ml".

Sp~~ak~~r· I think it: IAlt:~ s a f 1". r.:! r a C <.·l b ·i. n r.:! 1-. mE:~ o t oi. n g M o n d ;:~ y o r• T u c,~ s d i:1 y ·- a n d I t o 1 d t: h c,~ rn , 1 I ;:nn going dotAJn ·t ... o get d b"i t: H i".O ec.d: WE:1 just got out. of a P&P liH:H,~ tJng, T. h<.we cHlO 1-.h<;!r nH~e:~to:i.ng tMi ·th sontE:~body at. two or t.tJ.Jo .. f-Lft.eE:!n or· sorne +.: h'i.ng, dt'ld "i.f you want to gJve my ofFice a call iH'OU nd l:. tJ.Jo or· l::tAJo-f ·i. Fb:H?. n T. IAJ"i.l.l. SE!B if I can fit you in before I go to the HousE! . 1 T have'! not hE!cH'd a wor·d since~. Mr. SpE!aker·. Now, l·:ake +.:hat .. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for Ora1 Questions has elapsr~d. MR. SPEAKER: AI~ 1:: hi. s s i:i:·l g r~ • I IAJO ~~ 1. d 1. ·i. k n 1:. o welcome to the House seven s t·:udr,~nl-".!; fr·om rl<.~dgr'!r' Pr~ni:r:!cosi:al School, with their Principal Mr. D <.-Hl n y n y r· E:~ a n d t h r,d r· c h a p r,1 I" o n s , Shirley Stacey and Karen Eveleigh. SOMF HON. MEMBF.l~S : HE~ar, hear! Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Spc->.c3.ker. MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the Premier. PREMIER PFCKFORO: ·------Mr. SpE:1al<er·, I want to tablE! 1.. 1.

B 11.6 Vol XL. essentially the rnatE!rial that the Minister of Carmer Development mnd Advanced Studies provided in the Or·dl. q11r~s l". i.on Pr~l"l od. Tht:! question had been asked of me a ( o 1 1 p T r:! o f d ,:, y !) ;:'t g n o n l: h t-:! tAl h o 1. E:! :issue as :it lneJ.aLE!d to 1ayoffs J.n l".hn Corntntln ·i.l·.y Col.] .r: ~~(:• ~)ys · l~etn. I have a written answer for hon . HI{~ITibr,H'!; oppos i . h~, bnr:,utso T promised them that I wouJ.d get all 1 ... h H d n t-. ;:~ ·1. l. s for· 1 .. h f'! m .

A n d t: h 1. s goes - through it in the same way a s t:hr;! riiJ.n·:.i. sl::r:~ln d'i.d, l:hd"i: '"i.l:: IAidS not: the numbers that the members opposJ.t~:! hc.·ld bE!E!I1 !>c:ly:i.ng tt.: tAJas, and that we would be hiring on new people and going through t.:he question of retraining and so on. So I have the answer, and for· clll m~~rnbt:!r's of t:hc,, hon. so that they will have thE! -L n t.1.J r· i. t "i. n g . Petitions MR. LONG : Mr . Sp"!akc->.r . M R . ::> P F A K E R : co piE! s I-lOUSE! ans1J.Jer The hon . thE~ rnernber· fo1n St. John's r. i~ !) ·1·: . MR.

LONG : Mt". ::)pr~f.lkr,~i", T dIll S l·. i. ].]. h H I" 1::! :i. 1"1 St . John's East (~hE! P r· E!ITI:i. E! r· 1/Ji 1 J. br.~ gl.c~Hl to !< not1J. Mr. Speaker, I have a pEd: :it:ion th<.·ll:: T IAJOt.ll.d l.:i.ke l:o PI"E:!s~:!nL l.:o thE! HOUSE~ of AsSE!ITibly w·:.Lth just a small nurnbE!r of na1n~~ s on "it, bui: the Speaker will. see that the petit.:Lon i.s in order. It says: 'To thE! ASS('!tnbJ.y Labrador: We, No. 3 S Honourable House of of N~~IAJfcwndland i:'lnd u nde rs ig n1~ d, ~~ '1.811·6

petition this House,~ of Assembly to toHl a c t c 1·1 iHl <F1 s t o T h E! L C\11 d l o r· d a n d Tenant Residential Tenancies Act, 1.973, so 1::hi.·1~. 1~18 lflay rc:1Ct·dVc.;! protection from illegal eviction f r om o IJ r r· e n b~ d F>r' c-:1 mi. s e s b y T h e Landlord Tenancies Board. Since l 9 8 1 , t h c'! S u p r· r:H·n <.,~ Co u r· l: o f Canada 1 s decision has denied jur·-Lsd-i.ct.:i .on t:o Th(~ Landl.or·d Tenancies Board over evictions and, as a Y'(~Sul.t, SE!lHH'CIJ. of LIS petitioners are fighting eviction tAl .i t: h 0 l.l t t h (:1 b (,1 n E! f i.

I: 0 f t h i. ~; consumer protection body. 1 Mr· . Spedkc.~r. T tAriJ.J. gi. IJ(~ R copy of th(~ pc,1tit::i on to ·l:hc,1 page, and I arn s 1.1 r· e y o u IAJ"i ll '1-. h cl l': i. 1·: -j s i n o tn d (.:1 r· though i-t :i.s s:i.gn(.,1d by a smaJ.l ntlrnbnr· of pf: !l: - i . l· :: i.onr;!r·~;, inclttd·i.n'd the rnember for Menihek and myself. MR. SIMMS : 0 n c::t p o -i. n 1·: o f o I" d r,1 r· , M r· . S p r~ i:'l k f'! r· . MR. SPf:AKF.:R: 0r'dE,11n, p1ec.u;c;!! A point of order I thE! han . the President of the Council. MR.

SIMMS: I am hav'i.ng sorne d-i.ff·tclll.t.y tAiondering where this massive support for this petition ts corning from, and hotAJ rnany, bE! CaUSE! 111 e rn b e r· s a r c:1 s u p p o s f~ d t o c o rnm c-:1 n t o n the numbers contained. MR. I..ONG : T j1.1st d ·id. MR . ~HMMS : T could not ~H~ CCHild l'llHII ~H~ I" S 0 f heat" rnpc'!r:'t t·. the pr.~ t ·j i". i.on c'll"O? MR. L.OI\JG : ' ·--r- o u , ... MR. ~3IMMS : hirn, so l". h (~ narnes 1.. 1. 81J.'/ May 1. 2 , 1. 91lll pod1aps l:o l:r'll on the Vol. XI. Four·? MR. LONG: R~i.gh · t. MR. SIMMS : I s E!E!. MR. LONG : Obvi.ousJ.y no po 'i. nl:: of order·, Mr .

SpeakE!r. MR. SPEAKER: T h J s "i. !; f.l p o ·.:i. n 1·: of c 1 r:'l t" 'i. f "i. c at J. on I for the han. member. r"'R. I.ONG : I LJ.Jf.lS just. about to say for· t. h~:! bHn<.;!f·i.l : of l.h~~ llott~;r~ l . (~dd(:!l", 1::1·1<:! MJnister of Consumer Affairs and ColnrrH. tn-i.cr::~t: ·i . ons, l.he M'.'i.nisl·.EH ' of Hous :ingl and othE!tnsl thi:lt althouqh 1:1-H'!l''r~ :i.!; onl.y a !;H!i:-1'1.1. ntttnbHr' of nc~rnes on l:hc,1 pc,1t.:i.t:ion il:. Y'E!f1(.,'Ct:.s IA!hr:·lt · i,~; OblJj . OI . t ~ ;l . y r:l lJf:!I''Y SC.:!Y'.i.OI.IS i s s u E!

I e s p c,1 ci. a 11 y f cH' t h o s E! p ~'! o p 1 ~ ' ! 1~1 h o s 0. !; -i. g n i'l t: ,,, .. r ~ !> ;:'l i" E'! t h e r· C.;! I representing the situation of people IAJho f'i.nd t.h~'!ITIS(:!l.ves IAJ ... i.l:.hout any protection in this Province by The LandJ.ord Ten~ncles Board. MR. BAIRD : There are rnore people than that up on the roof. MR. LONG: Thr,~ is !; uc,1 of pc-:!opl.<-:1, .in th('' Ci:-lS E! of the couplE! lJ.Jho at"(;! s:ignator·:iE !

S '1:: o t h <'! p ~'! 1·.: :i. t .i. o n i'l n d 1.~1 h o a r· H a l. s o here in Hw gaJ.lE:1ry toddy I 'is one th;:~ 1.. r r'r'd. s E'!d i. n t:. hE! l·lou s e yesterd a y dur i ng Qu e stion Peri o d. I 'i-. Wi'\ S by shnnr co i nc i dence tha t [ put a question to the'! M:inistE·r· of C<Hl s IIlii C.:! I" n ff r'l 'i. r· !) d ncl Cornmun:icat:ionsl bf~cauSE! I hdd ~H:lE ~ n C;\I~Ji'\1"0 of l ~ h · i~ ; · i . ~ ; ~;ll<,' rOi" SOTII(! i:.'i.l'lle , t: h a t t h ,,, l.. a n d 1 o r· d T c:Ht a n c :i.

P s B o a r· d ·ic; <'! !; !;nnl::i.i :·ll -ly 1•1"i.l :ho11L i'li'IY jur:i.sdict:ion, any author:i.tyl any i"<.;•glll.d LOJ"Y Ci'lpdb .i. l i. l·.y "i.n df~a ·l. 'i.nq 1Al'i1::h 'i~iSUE!S thai: might bE! br·oughl: No . 3 S R UH.'7

to it by tenants with respect ·to mcdntc-?.nance r:lnd tjpkoc.;!p CH', tndr:!r~d, with the issue of evictions. In in this p r• 0

l) i. n C ~~ I~Jh 0 ITit'l y b P. S fH' l) 0 d IAJ"i.l-· h r:Hl eviction notice by a landlord, IAJ h ·i. c h rn ;:·1 y o r· rna y n o t b r'! · i. n c ornpl:) an c E:~ lAd t h thE! Land lor·d Cl nd Inn ani.: A c -1-. , 1: o d r'! i-. r~ nn :i n H i: h r~ i r· r•jghts, thc-:~y must go bco~fOI"Co~ i'l cour·l : of l.i'·liAJ . JL, of C:OIIr'sr,~, rn"ight b~~ a d:ifficult qu~~stion to r c,~ ~ ; o l. tJ r,~ . I F 1". h f'! 1 a n d J. o I" d ~~~a n 1". ~; 1·. o init:iate court action, then they will have do tha t . But l:ho 'i.sst.le, Mr .

Sper:lk~~r. is that t.e::~ncu1ts are::~ not: able to turn to the;! l..andlor·d cHid TEHH:\I'Jci.c,'s Roard as a court of resort to d E! t e r· m i. n C'! t: h c,~ :i. r· r· :i g h t s a n d I~ o determine whether they may have some protection i.n the face of quostionable practices that might b e i. n -i. t. "i. a 1:. C'! d b y r.1 l a n d l. o r· d . T h o s c->. questionable practices might incl.uc:Jc,~ : lSSI .IBS of Hla :i . ni: C;!J'lctl'lCI~ and upkeE~p.

Or, in the cas(:~ that has b c;! f:~ n b r· o tJ g h t t. o lfl y r:l t. t r,~ n 'l: "i. on thjs morning, less than t.wc,~ 11 1:: y -f () 1.1 r h 0 II r· s a f 1: f'! r· T r· r'l"i. ~; 0 d the question during Question PE!ri.od yr~sh'!Y'd<·1y, r:Hl C'!Wi.ci·.:i.on Ol"der· that, to my own m:ind, SE:H=:Hns q11:-i. l~c,~ pdt:r=!ntl.y unfr•1.:i.r Hnd ·in v::ioJC'ltoion of the Landlord rlnd Tr'!rlC:·\nt Ac 1 .... Rut, Ml". ~)peai<E~r. I arn noL able to pass jltclgE~rnc;!nl : on l".h:is. Thf=! Landlord and Tenanc:ies Board is not abl.o l':.o pr:1ss jt1dgurnunt on th:is.

T~H:~se p~wp1e, who ar'E! noiAJ -Ln the-:~ posi.t:'i.on of bc,~ing for·cod, quit.e lih~rally, out onto thE! str·E.~ et, have-?. bE'!E!n told thai~. t.he:1 L.andlor·d r.Hld TE!nancic~~s Board m:ight l.Jkc,~ to be;! ablE:! r.O dc.;!fE:!nd l::hern and take acti.on on their bE!half, but thE! y h <:l v co?. no IJ l. t:. ·i. ffld t: E~ a 1.1 t. h or· -L '1:: y 1~. o do so. I. ] 84.8 May 12, 1988 Vol XL. So, Mr. Speaker, it is 1.1dth the sc,~r:i .

OIISno!; ! ; of thr=! i .ssue in 1ni.nd that myself and the member for Mr=!n:lhr:!k, af'l".r'!l' hr'ltJi .ng Jnc;!l:: IAI·ith this couple who came to our office 1:h ·i.!; tnornoi.ng, clr:!cidr:!d i:.hc:d: :i.ns LE:!acl of corning :into QuE! s t:l.o n P E:' r·i ocl '1: 0 c:l r:-1 y i'l ~; k :i. 1'1 g i'l n 0 ·I: i'HH' q I I r~ S 1'. :'i. 0 n 0 F the minister and rece'.'iv:ing another lJd(jtlr~ pr·orni . ~ ; ~-;! l·.hr'\1": l.c,,g:-i.slc: 'lt.i on ·i s being worked on with no indication of r:·1ny ini:r'!r· ·i.rn l'fii·~Chr'ln'istn 'i::ha L t:he De::'partmE:~nt of Consurner·s Af f a:il"S rn '.'i. g h t·. h r:·1 \) 10! '1'·. () p I" 0 1·. (.~ c ·I: i": e n i:•\ n t ~; I IAJ (,! wouJ.d br·J.ng the issUE! fol"IAJcH'd r.·1gd"i.n t·:o thH l·lottse l::oddy "i.n the'! form of a petition.

So, Mr·. Speaker, IAlithout hav:ing a IA.J h o l e 1. o t f u r t h E~ r s a y , b e c au s (~ IAJ E! only have a short tJ.rne in I.IJ~Li.ch t:o p r· c,~ s t;! n ~: t. h c;! p c;! t i. t. 'i. o n , T IAJ o u l d simply submit to thE! HousE! and to l·.:hc,~ govr:!r·nrn~=!nt ~.: hat a ve1ny SE!r'ious situati.on E!Xists in IAJhjch tl·w government has taken s 'i. n c e 1981, so much time;! to rE!ViE!IAI its CliAJn CclpaciLy to acl w1~h an arm' s length agency and to review the pos'.i.t ion of l".ht=! l.i'lndJ.or·d Tf~n!'lnc i.('!S Board.

With respect to this J.!i!il.lt'!, cnnt :i.l'liiOU!;l.y f"or· l·:hr'• ]dst. number of years government has rn·orrri. s ~-:~d l.f~(:!Ji. sl.;:11:i. on, · :i . nde~:·d to the staff of the Tenancies Board - MR. SPf:AI<fR: Or•dc=!r, pl. r=!i:·1S~'! . MR. LONG: Mr·. Spoakc,!r, by ~~JdY of conclu~; Lon WE:' , on L h :i s s :i. d c,, , h Cl v t' bE! ~=! n I)Jr:1"i. l': ·i.ng long f'!l'lOII(jh, and cHr·t ·:a "i. nl.y tenants in l:h:is Pl"ov'inc~:! IAJho ai"E! 11.J:i. t h o 1 1 1·: p r· o ·1- e c 1.: :i o n i'l r· e n o t 'l. n a p o s :.l t ion to wait any 1 on g tH' .

In p;u·t "i. c 11 liH' T uJOLJl.d, IAri. l:h r'E! g r'E! t, draw the attention of the House to t h E~ p 1:1 r· t:: :i. c ul. c:1 r· s i. 1":. 1.1 a 1·: "i. o n t: h c.~ t I have mentjoned in the petition, and l:.h;:~l: 'i.s l::hc~ s"i.l":.uation t:.hdt has been brought forward by the people IAJ h o h i'l v o j o .. i. n (~ d u s i. n s i. g n 'i. n g t h c;! No. 3 5 R 18 4.8

MR. GUI .. LACF: Mr. Sp~H:l.I<C·H' . MR. SPFAI<ER: The:1 hon. th,,1 m(,11'nb(~r· for llllatorfor·d ·- Kenrnount. MR. GULLAGE: - . Yes, Mr·. SpE~dk(~r·, T, too, I~JouJ.d l"il<c:1 t:o speak to thE:1 p(,1tition in s u ppor l of t:h~~ pl. 'i.g ht of thr;!s r:! two individua1.s. Even though we haVE! f~ p~~t.lt'"i.on IAJi.th only four naJn~~s, two of which are members of the 1-1 o us r,1 , T do think t h r~ in d ""i. lJ -L d 1.1 c:~ J. s involved, 1.uho hi:iVE! signed the pet'"i.tion, fheir plight ctt this time has to be spoken to. I would J.i.kc'! l~o Sllppor··l-., oi.n fdct, i':hn thl~ust: of th:i s pe ·l:'.i -Lion.

Bc,1cause:1 no ·1: on l. y do ~~~r,1 h ,,, lJ r~ on r'! co 11 p l o ·.1nvoJve:H~, a~: WE:1 do wit·h thc-:1 FH~ t-. i. l: -Lon i: o c:l r.·1 y , 1:) 11 1: ·i·.l'd s ~; i. l: 11 i'1 t ·i.o n ha~; I:HHHl go:i ng on for· :.ornE:1"l:irn(,1 and · inder~d :v; only l:i'H'! l"."i.p nf i:hr~ jcE~b,~r~g cu; far cU> thE~ problem :is COnC(,1r'n(;!d. lrJe h a tJ r~ r~ tJ :i. c +:. i. on s ~. ,;, k ·i. n l.:J p J. a c P. with no recourse except through t.h(,1 COIJrts, a s-i.t:u;:~ti.on IAJh(.;!Y't:! people cannot afford to take that rout.-.E:1, rh'"i.s pel~"it.ion, of COUr'Sf:1, s pE:1a I< s to only tiAJO pE!Ople at this ti.1ne, but T would c~H·tr.dnly sdy that 1.ue havE~ had similar s ·t t. u at ·i. o n s i. n t: he p f:l s t a n d IAJ e do not have a Landlor·d Tenancies Bo;;~.r·d l::hr:~t these pE~oplc-:o; . c;:'.ln appE~al t. () . lt r·ee1l.l.y shotAJS, Mr·.

Sp,,1ai«-?.Y', t:hc,1 w h o l. e a I" c,1 a a s F a r· a s t h E! p r o b 1 E! m s p (,1 o pl. e o c c u p y ·.·i. n g h o 1.1 5 -i. n g d r· t~ hav'.i ng, and not only t.u:i l:.h ev ·i.cl·::i.on!>. 1/1Jc,1 hr.·\lJC'! sr:!f'!l'l r·r~coni:l.y peop],,1 1.11ho al~o hav'ing ti'Hdl" lights cut. by Nr'!IJJfotlnrll ;:-1nd l.:i.ght <:·\nd Powt~r hav:i ng no J"ecours(,1 to t:.hE:~ P1.1bl ic Ul·. i.li . i:"'i.o~; floar·d. Th ·i ~; ~; p ~~ a k 5 t: 0 t h (:1 p ]_ :i 9 h t 0 f p (.;! 0 p J. (,1 IAJ h 0 l.l8l~9 Mr.~ y 1?, 1. 9 a a IJoJ.

XL d r· e o c c 11 p y :.i. n g h o 1 1 s .i. n g o f r:-1 1 1 types, whetht:H' :it be city housing OJ" gotJC;!I"nrrtr'!l'li: hous:i .ng. T hr~l:. IAJhole area of landlord tenant r· c;! J. d '1". -:i. o n s h :i. ps h r:\ s 1:·. o b f'! l o o k E'! d a t. , and ce:~rtainly a bette:1r avenUE! of i.:\ppE~ctJ. 1-:hi:'ll'l -i.s CUr'Y'E~ntl.y -i_n pl.;:~ce has to be put in place by tho government, to not only adrlress the plight pE!OplE! UJhO arE!

E!Victed t.u-i. thoiJ t. a fr::l i. r· t.r i.dl and 1,~, r i . l::hou t a just hE!aring, but c~lso addrE!SS the rna t-. 'I:..E! r of lights and s E~ r· v J. c e s being cut without the right to 1.·1 p p E~ r.tl. , (j\ S IAJE:! J.l. . PREMIER PECKFORD : M1~ . Speab:11" . MR . SPEAKFR: Th,,~ hon . the-:! Pr'E:!Hii.~:!r . PREMTFR PECKFORD: M I" . S p E~ a I< e I" , I IAJ o u J d 1 j I< c,1 t·. o s p e a k l:o i·.h.i.s pot i l:"i on. 0 n F ·i, r· !; l: b 11 I s h J ,,, t i'\ n y r· r:'l 1··. 8 J r have c"l lot of sympathy for· what.: l.:h(~ hon. rnr~rnbr~r· ls Si'\Y"'i.ng "i.n l::h('' petition.

I was not aware of Jt., ;:urd :i.t str·r.1ck 1r10 as soon rH; thE! han. member got up and got into what it: was he was presenting thE!re, that :it seE!I·ns to bE! a good p o 'i. n t . I u n d e r· 5 l cHI d , -L n j u s t. speaking across here to the 111 i. n :i. s t E:! r, t h r:1 l:. 'i': h c,1 a c 1-:. J. s b ('! ·J. n g r·edraftE!d now to accommodatE! 1.vhat l · :hr-~ p(;!t.i. ·t. ·i.on i.s ask:-i.ng for·, and I g u e s s p E! o p 1 e wo u 1 d s a y , 1 lrJ E! 11 , g Ed: o n IAJ ·i. t: h i. t a n d 9 c;! t. i. t ..i. n l:. o t h C:! House. 1 I support 1.uhat LhE! potition cctll.s for.

Also, I noticed the nE!IAJS Y'E!lE!ase fr·o1n l.:hc,1 ~JDP Oppos .. i. l.:·i.on oFF"i.c(;!. I do not thJ.nk t:h~H'E! IAJClS i'.H1Y nHcr-~ss · i.I".IJ r::or· so1nr:! of l"'.ht;! l.dnglld9E! 'l: h (,11" e . T t h :i. n k L h o p o i n t J s IAJ E'' J. J L i.·\ k r:! n , b 1 1 :- ·Ur o l d n g 1 1 r:-1 g r:! l f'!i:·1 v r~ s f:\ Jit.t.le bit to bcO! d~~s'.i.J"E:'d; :it. Js ~>Oiflf'!I~Jhr:~i'. d·i.~;colli''l:r:!OII~> r'lnd so on. But I guess t:.hat :is pa1"t of l:.hE~ No. 3 r; RlHIJ.9

political game. T. arn sc-?.riousl.y str1 .1ck by I~JhHI-. hon. mernber had to say. m.in ·is l·.:er· -i.nci i.cat~=!s t:hr.1t 14Je dr('! r E:~ d I" a f t i. n g J t ~; o t h a t i t 1Ar.il1 be st.r'1.1ck doi4JI'l i'IS, I l·.ako -u-. , hi:tS bE:~(~I'l bc.;!fOI"(~~. L ~1 <:~ The noi~J not:. "i. t Thf~ t~JC:olY 1-:hP. n~~I4JS r·r~'l.rc!c\S(.'! f'r·orn l:. ho NDP OppoGJtion office reads Js I: h t:·l t: i: h H I. •'I n d 1 or' d "'n d T H n t:·l n r: ·i. r,, !) Eloa1"d do not have,~ thE:1 right..

T 911C~S<; thr:!y IA)Otll.d hi'll)f.! l·. hc~ r· ·i.ght IAIO lJ] d t h 8 y 110 t? - :if y 0 lJ d I" Cl f t t h (:~ 1. r:! g ·i. s l. .:·\ 1-. ton p r' o p <:! r' l. y? MR. FFNWICI<: T h r,~ y IAIO It J. d J f y 0 II <J-i. d 1: h i'l i· . . f.BF.MIF:.B __ PF_9KFORD: Yf:~S. It is not a qUE:1stion that the Tenanc.i.es BoHrd has been stt"uck down, it is thrlt CE!rtain pr·ovi.si.ons i.n t:.hr:~ l.c,~g:i.~;l.al~"i.on tJJhich E!stablished the Tenancies Board hclVE:1 b~:!E!n pr·ovc-?.n to I:H:! no ·t strong enough to handle this t,.J:ithoiJt. it be-i.ng overthroum by t.hE! court.

Therefore, some other l.anguage can be used t.uh"i.ch would per·rntt the Tenancies Board to do 1~1 h a l-. 1:. h 0. p ~=! t. "i. t. -i. o n a s !< s f o r· . A rn T. right? AN liOI\J . MEMB F f~ : y ~~ s . PRFMJCR PfCKFORD: o k cl y . s·o r Jl'i !) 1-. s HIJ , M r· . ~ · ) p n "' !< ('! I" , jt: ~;~~<'!ms to bc-?. ~;ornc,~t:hing the1t nrH!c:IS 1-.o bf:! cor-r-rc!CI : f~d, iHld U10. rn:l.n:j~;t~H' and mys~~J.F tAr.i11. g<'!t on r. h (:! b i:·l J l. i'l b () I I i:. 'i. t .i. n l: h (c' n (,~ X L d d lj or so and see that it is cor·rnct~~d. Tf tAJ(;! Cdl'l gc.~ 1: .i.l.: :i.nto th:is S~1S!don of UtE!

HoUSE:1 and get co - operation for speedy passctga, then T see no problem with us do :i ng tt bc-?.for'e IAJ<;! cloSE!. Orders of the Day I. 1850 May 12, 1988 Vol XL MR. SIMMS: Order 3, Ml". Speaker, conU.nuing rleb~t8 on the Concurrence Motion of the Social Services Committee. DebatE! tJJas adj ournE!d by thE! mmrtbE!t" r::· o r t h e S 1:. r· <:·\ :J. t !; , b 1 1 t h E:! ·i. s g o n <-i! notAl, S-.i.r·. Ml~ . SP[AKFf~: -;f' 1'1(.;! -,~ Ed:> i3. te IAI c\ S hon . i : hr~ tnr,mtbf:'i" BE:1] lc,~ JsJ.e. adjourned by the for· 1-:h(.'! ~?l·:r'i'·l-i.L oF I wjl] r·ecogrli.Zf:' an hon . rnE:!rnbE!r' on my lnl-1 ·:.

The hon. the Min :i. ster of H<'!alth . DR . COLLINS: Thank yo1.1, Mr·. ~3pcc!i:lker. Mr . SpHr.tkfH', i.n the Est:i.rnat. t'~; Comrni ltE!E! I thought we had a good exchange of views From both sides, the Opposition and gover'ntTIE!nt. I t~ril.l not-. say -l. t. tAJas 1-'.ot.ally without some controversy, but I thoughi .·. i.l~ tJJas cl fa i.r· g"i.ve c:wd take and I think useful t nf o r·trkl t:'i. on tAlc\ s c->. x c h rHl g E:!Ci. I do not tJJant t:.o go :into that :in gr'E!at: dc,~l·:r.l'il nOI41. J jt~sl·: IAir::lnl:. to SPC'!ak gE:~neraJ.ly on thE:~ health scene! fol" d fr~IJ.) rrtOiriBITI-.!;.

I do not think thE!I~E:' :is <HlY 9 d oi. 1'1 !) r'llj -i. n 9 I: h i;! f i'~ C: t +·. h r'\ 'I'. t h ~:! I" ('! !'lave bt1lc!n cornpJ ainb; vo tC E!d abou t. o ttl" h r;! ''' l 1: h '' y !; 1: c.~ 111 ·i. n r· ('! c r:! n I ~ weeks. The cornpJ.aJnts haue come i"i"Oifl I.IJOr'i<f'!r' S ·i.n t:h n f' -i.E!l.d, hosp-.ital lAJOt"kE!t~s, nur·ses, but not. only nttr ' !;:~!;.

T ht:!r't'! hdV~'! beHn ~>OlliE! c o n c e r n s and c om p 1 a :1 n 'l s b r· o u g h t foi"I .•Ji:~r·d by t.llH Oppos·.it.Jon, no 1:: t.oo unE!XpE!Cted I suppoSE!, but nc.~v(:!r'l".hE~loss t.hr-~y h·:·\VE~ don('! -L t. a number of tirnes, perhaps rnoreso tb;:ln pr'<-?.tJ:i.OIIsl.y, c:lnd thc,~ se po:lnts have beE!n brought: up :in thE:! rrwd-.ia c!ll'ld so on' No. 3 S R1850

1\1 OIAJ, I "'111 no f. 1: on !; 11 r· pi'' :i. !) e d H t: t-hr.lt, Mr·. Speakc,~r. J th:i.nk onE:~ c i') 11 r· (~ f.,J. s 0 n i'l b., y ::! X p (c1 c L·. d l: ·1·: h 'is t.:in1E~, Jn t.hc'! cour·se of rnattE:~rs, 1: h c:1 t t h C'! r· ~~ 1~10 11l d be con c c,1 r• n s expressed, there would be fears l.J o 'i. c Co~ d , ;:~ n d 1: h oro 1~10 u J. r:l bE~ cornpJa:int:s made. The rc,1asons for· i.l:. arE'! SE~VE:~t'cl'l: One~! of i·:hc~!lrl i.s that this is a time of great c h a n g c,1 -i. n 1: h e h e cl J. 1: h c a r f'! s y s 1: E! m act.ivi ty.

I IAJ:i.ll go int.:o that a 1-i.t:t:.l.e bit. l.atE:~r·, but I will just. l:ist off a fEHAJ nOIAJ. This is a time of considerable change. ::>econcll.y, and T t:h·i.nk t:h-i.s "i.s a r·ealistic point, that is because of the,~ nal:ur·e of HHc1 b11dgf~l:. l".hclt. was brough ·l: dOIAJn. Again, I will go i.n l·.:o that tn d HIOifH~nt. or l·:wo.

T h ·i. r d 1 y , I Ul'i. n k IM r~ d o h "' tJ o i-. o recognize that the collective b i'\ r· g r:·\ 'in ::i. n q r:-1 r· r· an g e,1 rnn n 1: s 1: <:11 1 for· cr:1r·ta:in yedi"S t:o be'! quitE!, r·elAt"i.vF.!l.y Sflf:1Hk i ng, by l:hosH 'Ln the-:! hec:AJt:h cr..tre,~ system and in ol·:hc:!r gotJr'!t'nrnf~nl ... sysl·:r:~ln!;, bHC:dll~.;o many of OIH' IA.IOY'i<E:~r:, iH'El in thE! col1.:,1:;l·.-i . lJl:1 br:~r·gr.·l"i.n·J.ng lll'lil'.!;, r:-lnd also calls for certain years r· 1':! l a 1·. :i. tJ E! l. y R c 1.: "i. tJ r:' , a n d r· 0 l a t. i. tJ e,~ l ':1 , ~~vc,HI, acr·omonious, if you want to U S ('! 1". h r:-1 -1: 1-: ~~ Y' Ill .

Now, just working backwards on those r·ea sons, last year mast d<;JY'C-:!BIIIEWtS I~.Je:H'E:~ i.n pJ.i:\Cf~ OT' l::he':} were in the last year of the contr·ac t, and "i.n actual. fc:u: I~ thei"E! was not much going on in the col.lectiue bargaining f i eld . Th"i.~; IJE~ar· "i.s d-i.ffl:~r'c-:!nt~. Many contracts bavE! eit.her E:~xptr·ed somE! [·. irne d U t' .. i. ng l.d S t lj eiH' c:Hld l'lOIAJ collectJve bargaining is getting qolng agr:1ln thoro often is a little bit: of a delay in these 1:: h :i. n g s g c,~ r:·l r· ·i. n CJ 1 1 p o r· l: h ~~ y "~' r· r~ i-..tbou 1': to e,~xp:i I"E!.

I 1 !Pi 1 May 12, 1988 VoJ. XI... ;; 0 ' I t ll ink IJ.JO c: r:1 n ('!X p (:! c 1·. l 9 !l B t 0 be a rnuch more active year in c:ollo:: 1·. ·i uo bdl"q;;l:in.i.nq and, l"h:::1refore, thE:1rE! 1.u·:ill bE! cases I fl f.~ d H [: 0 ·I: h I"! p I I b }"i C d 1'1 d p 0 S :-i_ 1':. "i. 0 l'l S sl.atE:~d to, obviously, g:i.ve onE:~ a b"i. t: of dl'l f;!rlgr.:! at l:hr'! bdr'gr'l -i.n i.ng table. Now, that is not bE!'.ing cynJcal. T h ;:-~ t c o 1 1 l. d b c,1 r e g a r· d <:' d a s a cynical remar· k, but I do not think :i. t oi,.s c ':J n i c i."'l. .

T t: hi n I< "i. 1:. :is jus l:: looking at the real.ity of E!VE!nts. So t h cl 1:. ·i. s o n l:! r· e a s o n 1~.1 h ':J t h E:! r· e has been a CE:1rtain amount oF C'OI'lCE!T'n and r.l C~~r·tc:·1i.n i:\IIIOUI'lt. of publicity given to concerns in the hedl.th care field. NOIJ.J, on the'! dr,!f.ic ·Jt s-Lclc:1 oF things, and again ono has to be I" C:1 ;:\ l_ '.i_ S 1·: ·j r: :i. f'l 1-. h "i S , l. d S 1·. lj E:! d I" IAJE' projected a very large deficit. 1,\1 ~~ d i. d no+: 1Ak1 n +: l: a p 1·· r~ s f'! n 1:. A l. d I" g (~· dHf:i.cj t, bE:1CaUSe:~ IAJE~ IAJE~I"e afl"d:id ':i.l: c o 111. d b !'!

Ill 1 r· '1: r: 1 1l t: o 1 1 ~; j n o 1.1 r· bol"rowJ .ng programme-:!, amongst ot.:hor· r· ~~ ,:, s o n !; . H11·l: IAH:~ ~~Jor·n so concfH'n~~d not. l·:.o de:~crE~ase essentiaJ. pubJ.j.c SE!I"ViCE!~; l:.l·l r:~ 1: ' {: h 0 f' .i. n r:-1 11 c: -:i. ;:·1 l s ·i. l: u at. 'i 0 n being what tt I;.Jas, lAJE! had to makE! '1-.:hal·: c:hoic~~. E~:it.hr:11" cul'.:br:,lcks ·.in ser·v:i.ces or faCE! a larg~:! deficit. We elected to face a large dE! f t cit , and I think it IAJa s t h CO! correct t.hlng to do.

Noi~J, c1S E!VC:~nts unfoJ.d~:!d t:h~~ITISE!}VeS, IAJE! camE! out ~.H:• · U~E!Y' t h"' n IME~ h f.~ d ;:,1 n 1J r· r'! ;3_ son 1: o r'! x p r-' c: I: . The economy picked up right across Canadd c:1nd, t:hE~r·c-:!Forc'!, tAJE:1 got better equalization and other l·.r·;:u1sfr-~r· p;;1ytrHHl ' l~s. Thf:! E~cono1ny was slow in affecting us bc,1nr,~F · i.c'i.Hll.y, bl .l'i· :-i.l: f:i.ncl.l.ly d t d and r·e~d:a:i.l tr·ade, and so on and so For·l:h, pic!<r.:!r:l 11p vr'!I"Y llli:'lr'kE~dl.y, E:~spec:i.ctl] ':J :in thE:~ J.ar·gc,~ :l t:.erns, and 011r· I"C'!tJr:11'\III~S Fr·:)lfl t"f'!i·.;;l.i.l ~;;:ll.f'!S No. 3 5

increased quite smartly. A n d , o F c o u r· s c;! , we c:!"'i. d , o u r s e l. v c;! s , have in place a very active progrcumne of r·ost.rcdnt so that our· expenditures did not get out of hand. AnyiAJi:lY, clt. Uw E~nd of thE~ last fjscaJ year we wc:~re not Facing $1.70 111.Ll.l.J.on pl.11!; dE~f"i.ci.l:, lA I<-:~ IAH~ I" (:~ f i-.l C i n g a d (:1 f j C i t: 0 f a b 0 U t $50 mi.ll. :i. on .

N OIAJ, J t h :i. n k , <:HH:I ;-, g ''d. n '1: h ·i ~; "i. ~; not. bein~~ cynJ ca], a Jot of pc->.opl c->. ~;;'lid, l..ook, i. r::- i:hr,!y Fr,~l.L HH:1Y could gwt by IAJ~H-h a li'.H'gn dc~f:i c:H. rH1c:i nOlA) {: hc-~ y tH'C;! onl,y -f;~ r: ·j 1'19 i:l !>lfli'l J J d e:~fj c:i t , t 1·1 E! y rnu s t: 11 i'.l v e s orne-:~ r·r.~'"dy CdSh t:H'Oiind i.:I'H~ pl.r'ICH, IAJhy do we not go after it? and, 1.·. h r,n' e foro , t: h EH' r-~ '''a!; Ul'i. !; p 11 s h t··. o say we are suffering badly, we n c-:~ e d cl b i. t o r (~ x t r· a f 1.1 n r:l -i n g a n d , therefore, we are going to make our· case knOIAll'l i·.·.o 1-.:he publ.i . c in every way we can.

NcwJ, of course, as a gover·nmE!nt we do have to point out that no matter what improvement occurred i. n our· budg c,~ t.a r· y s "i. t.a t .i. on, we arE~ still left with a very serious defi.c-i .t $50 m-i.l.l.i.on dE~fi.c:i.l: on current account is not to be s n c,1 e;! z E~ d a 1-. . A n d t h m t. ·i. ~; o n e of thr:~ dangc-:~rs of dc-:~fic'i ts; thc,~y arc,~ l:he pr·over·b ~ i . dl. sl.:i.ppr::1r'y slope dnd once you gr:~t on thc,~rn. thc,~y arc,~ I)('! r y h C:'IY' d l: 0 9 0 -1-. 0 F f . ~ 11 d 0 J'l C P. you get on t.hE!m and you SE~c,, a bJt. of · i.

Jnfli''OIH~ITIC:HII:, pr~opl.o ·l:r::!nd i:o t.h:i.nk thc,~y i'.II"C->. all OVC:'I" Jn i\1 VE:~l"Y pi"C'!I'rJi'li·.IJr'o f,:·\:;h"i.on. 0Jit' dr=!r·i ci. L :.:H:uat:i.on has not d:issJ.pal:e->.d, tAH:1 S t ·i. Jl ~lt:·li.H:! y r~t'\i"~) dho;:~rJ 01- II!; i:O bi"'ing OlJI" curJ"E:~nt: accotJnt C:Oinplr~U!ly -i.nto b"''lrH1CO. ~'II E:! IAJ i.l J. d o "i. f:. b 11 t. , n r~ IJ r;! r 1: h o l (;! s ~; , IAie have-:~ to JAJOJ"i< cd: Jt.. WE! cannot rHlax . It.

IAJould br.;! unr'E~dlJs r: .. i.r: for us to say now that our deficit -L s a b -i. t. s rn ell l . r=:! r' 1:: han w f~ e'! x p e c t E~ d , L.1852 May 12, 1988 Vol XL or even !d.gn :i.f:icantl.y srnall.er· than 1.11e expectE!d, we can afford to E:!

X p E! n d nl 0 I'H~ y I ALi. 1:. h 0 1.1 t. ~ i'H1 y r e'! g iH' d 0 Y' IAdthout sufficiE!r1t rE!giH'd to IAJhat o l.l r d c c o 1.1 n t s ;" I" e . 1\1 o '"' , t: h C.'! f ·.'i. n 1:·1 1 r· E~ a s o n 1.11 h y t: h e r· E! ··.i. s this dissatisfaction out: tl'wre 'is b f~ c d u s r,~ t. h E~ r· E:! 'i. !; ;:-1 l o t of c 1·1 a n g ('! gotng on in the,~ hei:alth cal"c~· f i. n J. r.:l . W C.:! b r· o 1 1 g h 1: ..-i. n , J. n c r:-1 n ;:,1 d a , government payments for health sr,~r'IJ·-i.C:H!; r:lboul·. 1-:.wonty - F-i.IJf=! Yf~i~II"S ago, g:ivc,~ cH' lai<C'! fJvr::1 yr::~iH'S, and IAJO 1:)1"0119 hi·: -i.

L ·j 1'1 ·i. n r'\ c f'! I" r·.·. r:'t -i. n fc1shion. UndoubtE:1dly, :it: d:i.d f:i l.. ·i · n r· o r:-1 s o n t:·l b l. y 1~1 I'! ll. '"' :i. 1:: h cj r·cumstancE!S the1'1.. pE~r·ta:inc,1d a-1:. UJ,:~I: l:"i.TIIf:!, bul: nOIAJ, I~IAH'!I'lt:y ·· · · f:i.ve YE:HH's late~!Y', cl lot of th:i.ngs havE~ chi:lngE:!d.

Thr:! ve;~J"Y l'li'll··.ui"H of govEH'nrnE!nt pr·ogJ"c11TirnE!S is ti'Ji:lt: Uwy do not ch<H19f:~ smoothly: You tond ·to put in place a pr·ogJ~arrHIIE! and, j . f 1:. h "i. n g s c h i:-1 n g E=! t:-1 r· o u n d y o u , 1:: h c~· pro g r a rnm E! tends not t: o c h cl n g E! unt-LJ. somewhe-H·r-~ down the~! r·oad l::hE! programmE! gE!ts so out of J.:i.nE:!, so out of kilter or so divorced, shall we say, with the c "i. r· c IWI s 1:: an c e s t h <:t t t I~ :1. s sup p o s <-:~ d to take car'E! of that fJ.nally you h;:~ve t:o dmngr'!.

NotAl, t.hr.,l· . ..-i.s IAJhi.·\1: hclS hr.,\ppE!!I'1e;!cl t.o our health care system. We put in pl.t.·\Cio~ "'J"r,'asoni :\bl.y good sysi::E=~m from a public funding po:int of IJ i (~IAJ hAH~I1 t·.y -F"i.IJI·) Yf~i'H'S i'\90 I 'i::ht;!I"E! were gradue1J changes in the cl :i . s:=!dSr,~ r=!n·i·. -i.'i: ·i r'!'> pr·r,~sonl· : · i ng t:h(->. type of population that one wms cln;:·d·i.nlj 1~Ji . l:h, l:llf:! par· ·i·."i.cu:lrH' concc-:~rns that: ca1T1e to JjghL, dnd 1: h 1:1 S lj ~; 1: C'!l (J (!! ~; ~;

f) tl 'i'. 'l. H ll. y d -j d l'l 0 t. c h e1 n g c->. j n a v EH' y s u b s t a n t ::i. a 1 lAIC~ y JJnt·:i.'l. pr·o•;sJIY'r!!S ht'll)r~ b11i.ll~ up and that is IAJherc:~ we ar·e now. We arE! nOJ•J <.·li: a s l:.c:1ge !AJhor·r=! IAie hHvr=! l-.:o undE!rgo, or under·take, cl f~:1:ir·ly r· ijl d :i c r.~ l r' c.~ IJ ·i_ f=! JAJ o F o u r· h o r.~ l 1: h c a r· E! system and, for the r·eason I just rnPnl.:·-Lone'!d, thi:lt il'.: ·i.s not fj.t.t.:·i.ng No. 3 5 R1852

·i.l'l rd. U1l.lj rl 01~1 IJJ i. i·: h 1': h Cc1 p Y' 0 b l :~HI~; IJ.)Cc1 hCIVC~ to face->.. Thcc1rc,1fore, that is r:l frH" I·.·i.l.r:! dY'f~r:-l For· rolnp.l.r'\:inl·:, conce1"n and ag-.i -ti'.d.:j on, iHld that:. j s anol·.hrcH' Y'Oi'ISOI'l IJ.Jhl) I),JI':1 rH'U bo·ing fi'.I.Ced lAd th :it. at th:i.s U rnE~. Ml". SpE:1akc:1r, I am not rna lei ng a Ullc1 0 r 0 1: ·j er:d c i:l s 1:1 0 f 1::11 ·j s I b I'!

C<~ I I l) 8 I haVE:' had to r'E!spond to a number of J. s s u ~~ s a n d , 1·1 o FH~ f 1 d . ly , p u I~ t h rw1 :in somE~ SOI"t of pc,1Y'SpE:1Ct:ive that pC-:!Opl.Cc1 COI.Il.d be r'~H~SCHlc1bl.lj hr,q:>plj with. For instance, a number of lAIC:! ~1 I< s ago t. h r~ r· c:! IAJC;! r· e r· c->. p or· 1:. s t. h r:1 t. IA.Je wr~re in gr·eat dJ.fficuJ.ties bc->.cause of a lack of spec:i.dl"i.st:s. Now, Mr. SpE!aker·, I had to rE!Spond and say if one looked i'lt the f:i gur~1s, wr:! ar·e better off in trH'HIS of spc'!Cial..i .sts thr.-11'1 IJ.I<,1 f'!VAr 1Aier'E:1.

WE! are better off in te!rllls of specialists than we were A 11UfllbEH' of yerlrS ago 1Aih~1r1 thE!Y'B IAJ 8 r 0 l'l 0 C 0 Ill pl.<'\ :i. 1'1 1: ~; d b 0 I I '1'. s pr~ c:i.al:i s t s, or· if UHcH'E! WEH'C,1 c en n p l r:d n I' s , Uw IJ IAH~ r r~ q 1 l'i 'l:r·) rn11 i".

H d complaints or onJy very sporadic ':oulplt.dnl".s. l111t hnr'A Uwr·1,1 IW:!r'r:! great concerns that we did not hi:\1)8 l-:1rl0119h ob~;l~f:1t:r·i.r:·i . r:~ns; 1~1c,1 d 'i.d 1'1 0 t. h a V (,1 H n 0 U g h j n t E:H' 11 J S t S ; IAI ~1 d j d no 1.: hr:wr~ I:Hl0119h r'i'ldi .olog·i ,!; I:!) rH1d so on and so for·th, so I had to br··i ng i .t: l:o pPopl r~' !i a l".hHl 1: ·i.on that thr:d: was not t hE:1 cas c,1. Su rE:1, 1A1 f'! d o n o 1: h '''

I) r~ H n o 1 1 g h , p r· o b r.1 b ly , but tJJc~ iH'£~ irnpr·oving, and I th'ink r.hCc1 -i.SSI.IE! IAJi:lS pul~ to rEo!St Hfl~E!Y' !:l pE:1riod of ·tirnE!. Similarly, in the area of funding generally, the word 'cutbacks' began to be bandied ar·ound and it. i s s t i ll b e i. n g b a n d -:i. r:! d i\1 r· o u n d . And if onE! just left it at that, pCc10pl.e IJl.t iffli:lt.:~>.J.Ij IJ.JOiil.d 9E! 1: I: hE! impress:ion, my heavens! there is not as rnuch rnoney go.ing "i.nto l . :h~~ he:1a] th carc,1 systc~rn i!\S UHH'E! was pr'<'!Viousl.y, IAih"i.ch -i.!; patr~ntl.y fa]se.

I 1 H ~.3 May 12, 1988 Uo] XI As l:hrC! Pr·c,11rJ"ic,n· rnr:H1l:i.onr:H:l l".odi:·liJ, if you J.ook at the figures the rnon:i.es go·i.ng ·l.nl:o l-.l-11,1 hnal.l:h er:u·r:! sysl·:t'!lll a r· e i n c r· r~ a s i n g i'.l J J t h 1;;1 t.:-i rn e , y r>. <H' b 1J 1J o iH' , p I" o g r· P. s s -L IH'! ly . T IH' 1J a l" ~1 inc1"easJ ng at a great .E!Y' l"cd:e Lhc~n l-.-.l-11~ CPf; l:hey r'li''l;! ·i.ncr·c~<'ls:i.ng r'll: d greater rate than in almost any 0 1·. h f'! t' p r'lr' 1:

c) f 1.: h H p 1.1 b 1 -j C E!XpE!ndi ture progrclffiiTIE! . NotAJ, I I),J()IIJ.d br'! t.hH f"ii"SI:: 01'1('! +:o 1::1clrnit: that they are not increasing at l:he rHI".e !:hal: rnany people would like them to increase, this gov<-:!r'nlnont "i.ncl.IJdr:!d I bu 1:: 1.~1hon you consider there was talk of cutback!; and yo1.1 look i'l.t !"he facl:.s and the figurE!S, the tiAIO thoughts, the t:IJ.JO IAJor·ds, 'ct.d:bcu : ks' <Hld 'increases' are cJ.earJ.y at total

I) a r· J t.·l n c e to~d. 1·: h o n ~~ <:1 n o ·1:. h e r· . 3 o , one tries to put that at rest. ThE!I'l the otl·wr day, a~; hon. rn:~mb r,H' s lAd l. J. r· ~'! rnHHlb o I", t: l'lf'! r· P lAid s the unfortunate situation at the Hr:1r:~ll:h Scir~ncr'!~; Cornpl.Px lo~lhr:!I"P, no doubt about it, sur·gc,1l"Y of i'.l T'f:!l. dl~il)!,dl) IIY'ljlc1i"11·. l ' ldl ~ IH'f'! l'li'ld I:O be:• delayr:1d because of d:i fficu] t ::i E~s in 1: h n 'i. n f·: I"! n !; ·i.

I) H c: d r' n 1 1 n "i. I: 1.1 p L h r:! r· n . AgCI:in, that IAJas pouncc,1d upon as s OHH:11". h ·i. ng

I) or· 1J r·1~d i c a 1.1. y n r'!IAJ r:'l nd very dangerous.

One had Lo put l:.hd ·i·: ·i nl·.o pr~r·spc~c: l': ·i.I)C'! r:·1nd :i. nd-i.ct.'l t.c,~ that quite often, by the vory ni'l "1:11 r•r->. of ' Lhr~ hr~;··ll-1': h Cdr't'! s 1J s t:C'!ITl itself and by hospiti'.lJ. act:i.v:it:ies, a hosp:i.l:.t.'ll llJ-i.ll br~ faced w:i.Lh ITICH'f:' needs than it can normally handJ.e a n d , t h EH' c.;! f o r e , i. t h a s t o p r· r.l c t .i. c E! what is normaJ.ly cal]ed triage; t. h ~'! y h i.·1 v ~:! !~ o t d k c-:! t: h P rno s l:: u r· gent cases and perhaps deJ.ay somewhat t f1 c,~ c <.:1 s ~~ s '1: h N t. 1:. h ~:! y or· d .i. n a r· j _ 1y IAIOuJ.d not deJ.ay, but 110IAI, in t:his p d r t :i. c ul. a r c -:i. r· c u 1 n s t 1:1 n c E!

I t.: h o 1J d o have to delay for a bit. But C:·lftr:!Y' d IAJh"i.lE! ·l·.hc.:! (c1XI:·.r'd pr'E'!SSUl"E! is taken care of or J s o thE! rtAd s e nol·: •:lflpar·c,1nl : , •'lnd l:hr'!tl t:hoy c<:'lrl qo back and practice the usual flt:-l I: t E! r'l'l () f (!

I) CHl 1". s I '1: h i:d. ·j !> t d k (~ No. 3 5 Rl853

l:.he cr.lses 'i:.h<;!y had to dole~y for ;:~ temporary period of time. Now, Mr. Spc:1akco!r', I only have another minute or two. Let me just say this, that WE! al"e not untquf~ i.n fdc ·i.ng theso concf:!l"ns, and I hope I have explained the rational bas1s for those concerns. I am not saying that L h E! y ril r· f'! w J. t h o u ·t. b r:l s 'l s , b 1.1 i·: T r:-\1'11 just say:ing that they haVE:1 to be V i. e 1.1)(,1 d :i. 11 +:. h (,1 :i. r• t r' I I i~ HIP i:ll'd n g , 1.111 0 ai"E:1 not urd que in Lh"i s.

Ontario Sf~l: t.lp '" l·.r'lSk forcP, dnd out of t.hcd: task for·ct~ thc,1r'(,1 is nmu a Pr'r.Hrl"i.c·H' 1 !; !) l:11c:ly gr'OIIfl, or· l~lhi.~h,HJP.r ' il JS, r.And thctt · :i~; Jool<:lng at- t.hc,1 h~~r.ll.l":h car'H sysl:(,1l'fl ·i.n On1:dr'i .o :i.n gi"E~at d(·d·.atl. TI'H>.y hr.lVE>. publ:i sh(,1d l; o rn r.>. r· r.:! p o r' i: s , r'l n d l·. h n l) ,,1 r' c;! p n t" i: !; <H'E~ u] ·l.:iruately go".ing to r·E~suJt ·in g 1.1 i . ·1·: (.~ i'l d 5. f r ('! r· (:! n i: he i'\l. r·: h c ~.~ r' (~ system :in Ontario than what has bE~E!n 'i.n pl.dCP. ·.in i:h::! J.r:-\St. df~Cdc:i~1S.

In Qu<,1bec t.:h<o!Y hr'lU<'! cornpl.E!I ·:od a simiJar study. They have corne forward with proposals which are qu:i.te rad:l cal in terms of putting p h y s .i. c oi. a n s and o 1.: h <-?. r h c:1 cl l. t h c <.'1 r e workers in rural areas and in controlling costs in their instit.utjonal and programmes ar·eas of h(,1i:llth Ci:H'e. In Al.bert.a, Not;a Sc:oi:.J;,,, and s o on and so forth, and in thE! United K oi. n g d o 111 , 1.: h e y h ad t o d o E~ x r:•l c: t 1 y thE-) same t~d ng, <-ls dJd Uw Un:i tE:1d ~3 ·t-. t'l ' l~ f'! s . Ml~.

SlMMOf\JS : WouJd thf:! rn:in:1st:HI" per·rn :i t a q I I C:' !) [: ·i. 0 l'l ? Dr~. COU .lW): T on J y h ;,w f~ a nd n u h1, but if :it is '" shol"l": CJII1,1S l::i.on. Mr~. ~ : >PEAKr:: R: T IH' ho n . t h c,1 mf~rnbE:H' for· For· t lHH:1 - He r·mt h:l g c,1 . l. 18 54· May 12, 1988 Vol XL MR. SIMMONS: I haVE! be!en listerdng u.Jit.h grE!at interest to the minister and I was wondering he is a doctor by pr·of< ,1ss'.i.on, a doctor· oF gr'E'! at rE!putation does hE! r<:!f1E!Ct the views of h 'i. s colleagues as he speaks here? I find it incredible +:.hdt i :~s por·son IAJho took thr'!

Hippocratic oath could sound so hypOCI":it -j C:dl. MR. HrHRO : He is just trying to be smart . MR. SIMMONS: 1'1·. !)OIII'ld!; hypocr•"i.i- 'il:r'll f'r'OIII h(H'B, but t:.hat. IAJclS nol. thc,1 po'.'i nt o-f my q I I (~ :; I· ·i. () n . T h ~~ I' C:1 r:·l l. p () ·i. n 1·.

C) f rn y qUE:1st.ion is, is he r'E:1F1<,~ct.ing t.:hE:•

I) i.fl.IAJ!) Of" ·l:ht:' l'f11,1c:i·i . Ci~l FJY'OfE:!~)S.-i 01'1 "i.l'l his statement here today. •:·ll'rl no t·. ·i.n l·:.h"i.s the U'i.E:1 lAJS of any gr·oup, :r <'lm h(l.r'(~ to I"E:!fl.<;!ct, -L n rny position as a minister, the a t:t·i.tude!; of gov(H'I'lHHHl t. , but T arn also here, like every member ~>.l.c,1Clf>.d to th.i.s Hous<.;! 1.s h(:!Y'E!, to reflect the views of pub1ic issues r:-ls I se<-?. t.hE:1m. Not•.J, I arn not. going to say I am speaking for d o c t o r· s . I rrr"i. g h t. d d d i:: 1·1 i:i( 1:.

I h a u E! been invited to address, as my p r· c,1 d c.~ c: r.~ s s o I" Wi'l ~; b c,1 for· f'! l'fH~ , 1'.: hE! NelAJfoundland ME:!d-:i.cal Assoc:idtion 1 s r'lnnllrYll. l'flOI:!t-:i.ng c:orn .. i.nq up l::hE~ lJ..JE~E!kr:'nd aft:E!r' n<O!Xt. The M:1 nis l:<,11"

C) f II f:1 i.·l 1 L h i ~:: I I s I I ~~ ll. y sri. v (::! n 1:: h (~ pr:iv:il.(:'9<0! of sp<,~<-).k:ing :.Last. at thE:! llll'lchr-~on ,·.1. ·l: 1- hr-:! f'!l'ld of l·.h('! conVE!ntj .on, and thE! rrr.in :ist.E:!r' ll !ill. :·llly l ... <~ke:1s l:hi!; oppor·t:l .ll'li , l::y Lo dJscuss certain broad issues as he ! ) I~H!; l":hc;!lfl. T CHr"i:i:~ : inJ.y "intend l::o get into sirn'i.Jar issues at that ·l:'i triC'! . 1,~ I'H:d·.I·H'! r' T 1~1 . i . l J. b o lri.l'·. IAJ i. 1:: h b u n s o I" a p p 1 au d E! d cl n d c a I" I" :i ,,, d o u t. on l:h1-~ doctor·s 1 shot .llder'li, [ IAJ"i.ll not foretell.

But if t:he hon. rno rni:HH' 1~1o u '1. d 1. :i. k e ·[" o k l'l ot .... J, T IAl"i. ll No. 3 S R18~)LJ.

report to him after the meeting . In any case, if the han. mE!rnbE!r is using th~) word, 1 hypocr·Jtical 1 in a pejorative sense, in what I have said I IAJas t.r·y Lng to lay out. as I see it the large movements that are going on and thr.ll: ul.t.:lma t ely IJJe have to dc,)al IJJi th, perhaps in a day-by-day IAICIY or an ltorn - by .. .. t tem way, but IAie haVE! to try to understand the lar·ge chr.:~ngE!S that are going on. ~Jhat I was trying to say is t'.hat IAie ar•c,) a l.: a critica1 stage in our health care systl,!m.

Wh('! n you a1ne at <~ critical stage, you often do get dissatisfactions, sometimes not clearly thought out, but dissatisfactions coming to the fore and we have to respond to thc::~m. But we must make sure as they do comE! to us that we dE!f:ine them, IJJe do not run off and rnal<e irresponsible statements about concerns that are expressed; we have to look at their trUE! nature and deal with them as best we can. So, Mr.

Speaker, I u10uld hope that in this House as we go through the rest of this S(,1Ssion, and undoubtedly there IJJi 1.1 be fu rt her debate on points in the health care system, that we will try to d ~) a 1 1..11i t. h t h o s e t h -i. n g s r a t i o n a 1. l. y , and try to deal with them in a way that IAillJ. llltimai:E:)J.y gi.ve r·iso lo helpful solutions. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBF.RS: Hear, hear! MR. K. AYLWARD: --- . Mr. Sp(,)al<er. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for StephenvilJ.e . MR. K. AYLWARD : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . LUISS May 1.2, 1988 Vol.

XL It is a pleasure to rise and speal< in the debate on the Es timates pertaining to Social Services. Mr. Speak(H'. I hav(~ to say that. tn Opposition we have a SE!rious roJ.E! to play to keep government accountablE! IAihE!n it cornE!S to ex p E! n d :i. t u res of mo n :i ~1 s . And IAJ he 11 it comes to health care, ulhE!rl it comes to education and related services that are essential, especially health care, then we have· a serious ro]E! to play in bring ·i. n g 1.: hose co 1'1 c E! r· n s to t: he forefront for thE! peopl.E! so thc:·d: they ccHl unders l:.and IAJhat ('!Xact:.J.y <.'l. s'ituation is .

WE! present those concerns. I fE!eJ.. i.n a responsibl~' mai111E!r, Mr . Speaker . As a rnat t:E!r of fact. Uw health critic for thE! OpposJ.tion, in the first few weeks he was appointed, IAIE!I1t doum and rn(;!t IAI'i l~h. just as an E!Xarnple, a nui'TibE!r' of peopJ.e from a variety of health care institutions in thE! Prov:LnCE!, and he discussed the conc(~rns of nurses with the PresidE!nt of thE! Nurses' Union. In a VE!ry responsible way he has done those things. 9E!tting th(,) information and putting it togE!ther and corn:Lng into l:.hts House and pr'E!SE!nt ·ing that informatjon. That 'is the r 0 l.

E! 0 f 1:'. h f ~ 0 p p 0 S :i. t -L 0 11 . ~~~ E! h i.;l ~J E• beE!I'l doing it very I.IJeLJ. . Mr . SpE:)akt;!r, and IAJe r.\re go-ing Lo ker:'p on doing it . bilE:' have l: o compromise, t:her·f.:! i s no doubt about it. Everybody ha s lo comprom i se. There 1s only one pie. TherE! :i.s only so rnuch funding to go around. Nut the questions that have to be asked an~. Hot~o.l 'is that funcLLng spc~nt? WherE! is it spent? How ar'E! you supposed to do 'it? How effectively is the money spent? Those are the qUE!Stions, Mr . Speaker . No. 3 5 R1855

When I hear the Minister of Health getting ur and talking about irresponsible statements and wondering whether or not we should be careful in how we put our co n c c-H' n s a n d s o o n , I 1..11a n t to 1 e t. him know t11at we ar·e VE!ry concerned on this side, and things arE! morE! than at a critical stage OIJt there in the heal. th care field, they are getting very dangerous. I get many phone calls as do other members, about elective surgery. Mr.

Speaker, it is ca11ed elective surgery, and many people in this Province have be,~~:~n IJJaiting months and months, and this E!lective surgC:~ry l:UI"ns out to be,~ (,~mE:~rgc,1ncy stJrgery bE!Cause they g(:~t not get 'into l:. hE! hospitRl; thc-:~y arc-~ pu ·t. on long wait.ing lists. As a matter of facl~ .• in one pa1nti.culc:~r caSF.! I called the doctor myself to ask when they IJ.Jould be able to put forward surgery for a certain person, and t:hC:~ secrE:~tc:·\ry tAJho answered the phonE! said, Well, we are not going to be i:~ble to do that this Summer, Mr.

Aylward, because we are closing beds at the Health Sciences . I said, But you understand that this person has to have surgery very soon. They caJ.l it elective surgery, yet the person is getting worse aJ.l the time, she has been waiting nine months . That. is the critical s:i.tuat :ion we have to deal IJJith. NoiJ.J, how do IJJe deal IJJith tl·1a ·t? That. is thE! solution that this goVE!rnrnent has to comE! up 1..11ith. It. i.s a situation that exists all around the Province, Mr. Speak(:~r, and :i.t is something that is not going to go C\IAidy.

As a mat:lE!r of Fact, tt is going to get JJJor•se if bE!dS arc"! cl.oSE!d and emer·gc~ncy Slll"gE!ry, l.oi". aJ.one E!J.ective surgery, is I'Jo ·t al.1o1Aie'!d t:.o b<:~ pc,H'for·rn~~d. Thi.s hi:ts L.18 56 May 12, 1988 Vol XL to be addresSE!d. That is a major concc;!rn of people out ther·e that we have to do something about. So we bring that to thE! House or Assembly and we say to government, address thE!SE! conCE!r'ns. If the;! b(:~ds, Mr.

Speaker, ar·e goJ.ng to be cJ.osed down due to J.ack of f u n d i n g , o r· v a c a t :i o n s o r IAI h a t e v c:.~ r , we have people waiting on elective surgery and we should keep s as rnany- bE!dS open as possiblE! so that that elec U.ve surgE!ry can get done and people can get the services they so rightfully deserve. This situation is becoming critical all over the Province, E:~specicllly in ru1"al Newfoundland, Mr . SpeakE!r. PeopJ.E! therE! i.H'E! IAIOI'lder•"i.ng i.f thE!Y arE! E!VE!Y' going to get their hea1th probJ.erns solv~:!d.

Thc,~y do not live'! in t:hc;! city, so they haVE! to makE! phonE! calJ.~;, wh i.ch rn~'i.HlS runni .ng up a lot of long distancE! char·ges . I lhink everybody shares that concern, Mr. Speakor, and government over there have to deal with that concern, they have to addrE!SS it. Speaki.ng of health car·e, NationaJ. Nurses 1 Week, I Mr.

Speaker, and I would commend the nurses who are within the syst.E!m IAJho have:.~ tremendous job under pr·~~ssure, and w:i.thout the~ r·esources. this is beliE!VE!, l'ii<E! to working done a gJ"c-:~at propc~r Mr·. ~3pc,)ab:~r, as I said, our crit:i.c for he a 1 t h c a r· e i n t hi s P r o v i n c e , the mE:~mber for· Port d~~ Gr·av~~, soon to be ministE!r, has m~:d: IArit:.h p~~opl.e ·.in the hc:)alth systE!m. That is a rE:)sponsiblE! acUon, Mr. Spc-~akcc~r. Wh~~n (:\ plnob1l"!tn occurs and it is an emE!rgency sJtuation, IAIE! hdvr;! l:o br· :i. ng Jt up.

That i.s thE! r· o 1 €! of t he 0 p p o s i U. o n , i'Hl d I think we are doing a very good No. 3 5 R1856

job. And we are not going to stop, Mr. SpE!aker, bringing thoSE! conCE!Y'nS t.o the hon. Minister of Health, and whomever else on the other side, t.uhen it comE!S to concerns of people of this Province. We are elec tc,1d to do so, and we arE! going to continue to do so. Mr. Speak<:1r, looking Rt: <.;lducat.:ion in the Social Services Estimates Cornmi. t b~E:1, I t.~Jd s very s u rpri. s E!d l·~ o hear· HH.;l hon. Minister of Educal.:i.on Lc:~l.k !:lbout rur·al Newfoundland teachers and how academic results in rural Newfoundland correspond to the education level of teachers, or the competence of teachers.

I do not know if that was a comment made out of whack, or if he really d:Ld no ·t mean it, but I know, Mr. Speaker, that a lot of people in rural Newfoundland are awfully riled up, and the teachers out there are very concerned when they hear a minister of the governrnE!nt talk like that, especially the minister responsible for education . It is hard to believe, Mr. Speaker, that you would h~~ar that. When you look at the real.:lstn of the funding they get and the unfair system we have for funding education in rural Newfoundland and you blame it on t.h<:1 tE:HHhers, Mr. Speakor, t:hal 7. i.s not right.

It i.s t.urong, and it is s orne t: hi n g U1 (,1 rni.n is t E! r should rna I<E~ sure he clar·ifies. Or maybe that is what he believes, I do not knot.u, or· tAJhat this administration believes. But we will present: another alternative. Our education crit:ic :is doing a very good job of providing proof, Mr. Speaker, that funding levels for education in rural Newfoundland arE! down, and in urban ar<:1as they are up. L18~7 May 12, 1988 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, IAJe have to addr·ess that problem. When you see the results academically, it is shameful what it is doing to ou1n young people in rural NewfoundJ.and.

It is sharnE!fuJ., :it i !; shocki.ng, and it :is not giv"i.ng o u r young p E! o p 1 e i n r· u r a 1 N<:1wfoundl.and !:he opport.un'i'l:y l:.o get out and improve themselves. Mr. Speaker, IAJe have only 01'11':1 piE!, but·. t~JP. had bEd:+·.<,1r sl'liH'<,1 j_t: equally. Because if we do not, then the rosult will. be what we are seedng now. It is happE!nin~J ~ow wt th our young people, ~nd that is a situation that has to be dE:1alt with . And :i.t is not going to be de!alt w:i.t.h by the• Minister · of Education getting up and saying, WE!ll, it is the inexper·ienced t<,'achE!rS in rutnal NewfoundJ.and.

That is not the tAJay to address the problem. It is with government action and government policies that you address that problem. Also in the Social Services Cornrnittr:1e thE!Y'E! tA.Ji!IS l:alk about The Young Offenders Review Board and the minis Ler sa:i:d, We i:ire going l:.o gE!t thE! Board to do thE! hearings, yot, f.:her~~ is Vf~lny rnuch confusion within legal circles as to what they Ccln do . Mr. Spoal<er, IAJ(,1 <H'<,1 hav ·i.ng tr·ouble over here understanding if the Mi.ni.s l~er und<~rstand:; IAJI·H,1tht'H' or not he can dismantle t:hi s board, or iF h!,1 LAH::\nts to. But I hope, Mr.

Speaker, that hE! wJ.J.l understand what his Cabinet has done, what the provincia]. government has dono and that he will acldrE!SS that problE!rn. It is something they put t.h~:.~re, and they can take it away. There ar~1 Province No. 3 ~ young offende~rs in lA.JhO iH'e :in nE!Bd lhE! of R1857

r<-:'!habtlitation, who are i.n neE:1d of having their reviews done, Mr. Sp<,1aker·, clnd that has to b<;! dm~l.t tAJith. It is not being dealt tAli th now. There is great confusion because of government policiy that ts bH·ing pr·esr:1nl':.ed, and that: has to be dealt with. We have brought those conCE!rns to the House of Assembly, to thE! people here in this House l:o be dealt with - a job well done - and I would only hope that the Minister of Social Services, who just took over the job a few months ago, when he gets up will give responsible answers to responsible questions.

If that happens , tAJE:1 rni 9 h t g e l: so met hi. n g done around herE!. But I do not know, Mr. Speaker, if that :is f:!ver· going to happr:1n t.h<'! tAla y hE! i. s g o i n g . I t i s unfortunate, because we want to see something done with that young offenclEH'S boc:tr'd for young offenders in the Province. We suggested a soluti.on, Mr. Speak<,1r, and I would hope it wi 11 be addressed. MR. EFFORD : Tell them to watch View From The Hill, on Sunday. MR. K. AYU\IARD: The member for Port de Grave tells m<.;! to tell all hon. colleagues t.o watch View From The Hill on S u n d a y , M r . S p f?. a k e r .

You tAd. ll s fH! a netAJ and rising star, thE! mr:HnbE!I~ for Port de Grave. I look fortAJard to seeing that, and seeing his r:1xposit.ion of hi.s vi('IAJS on a variety of topics. Mr. Sp<,1akE!r, the Soc:ial Services Estimates Commi.ttee also considered the estimates of the Department oF Career Development and Advanced StudiE!S.

The LUEi8 Me:~ y 1. 2 I 1.9 a 3 Vol XI:. mi. n'i.~>t:E!Y' of that dE!partm<~·nt carnE! in here! today and he talkE!d about: l. a yo F f s a~> if t h r:~ y IAJe r· e no l:. hi n g , as if there was nothing l':o wor't"Y about, no probJ.c,1m, YE!t i.t took lrim tlAJO days to put togf:1ther t:hf:~ anstAJ<,~rs l:'.o addr·ess l:he pr·oblr:1rn. In the statement given by the PrerniE!r t:oday in r·c,~sponsr;• to our question he included instructor· rE!train :ing.

He says that ·it should be recognized that provision is made within the instructor collective agreement for establishmE!nt oF a comrnitt:.oe ~o address the retraining issue. It is the function of this Management Union Committee to identify candidates who have potential for retraining. It: is lci.nd oF stJrpr·:isi.ng, Mr·. 5pf~akr:•r, that he would put that there. B"!cause somr:~ of the pr:1oplf:!

I haVE! talked to 1,1.dt.hin the systE!lTI IAJerE• askl;!d l.asi: yoc:u~ to submit r'E!!;urnrc•s so that they could be evaluated for trdnsfers or retraining, and so f~r all almost every one oF thr,1m hi:'lVe gotten r.~re pink slips, M 1~ . Speaker, with no cons u 1 tat ion , IJJ i. 1:. h no , We ll , you cl r f:! d o '.i. n g a business course or you are doing this type of cours<.;!, IAJe lAJ:i.ll retrain you, or we will put you here or we will put you there. That has no ·t been donE!. So the mechanism :is set up, Mr. Speaker, but it is not bE!ing foJJ.owed.

I knotJJ that for a fact, and oi t. is about U.rne the Minister of CarE!E!I" Development took the situation a little more seriously. If you want to blame administrators of communi.ty colleges in thE! ProvincE!, Mr·. Sp<->.ak<.;!r, br:1causE! of funding. that is a hard tAJay to go. The Wf:1St:E!rn CorrnnunJt.y Collf:!ge Cr:-lrne out. of the Bay St. George Cornrnuni·l:y College, and was a Flagship of community colleges in Canada, Mr. Speaker, 1\1(). 31) rna 5B , ._:r..,._

and over there now, because of lack of funding I people are being laid off u.Jho arE! tE!aching courses wh"ich are important and which are in demand. So thE! answers brought in today by the han. ministc:H' and the Premier are certainly not good enough and we are not going to accept them, I will tell you that . Last year, Mr.

SpeakE!r, they came :in '"'i.l:h this ne'"'· r·evamped community college system tha ·l: was go1ng to create a new wave, and ne1.u system with lots of money to make sure thn m~nd~te was well done, We IAiill hire new teachers, ne'"' 'instructor's I c:\nd IAH~ I.UJ.l.l put in courses that arE:1 valuablE:1. Mr.

Speaker, ctll we see now ctre cutbacks in all different areas and courses be"i.ng affected that are still good, that are impor·tant, and people 9'.;!t.t.:i.ng laid off with no instructor retrain:i.ng put forward l:o thc;!m. rhat. is not the way it was su~posed to be done, and we express those concerns to thE! han. the Minister of Career Development so that he can deal with them. It is unfortunate, Mr.

Sp(.;!i3.l<er, that they chose to come in as if there "is not a problem, as if there is nothing to it, as if everything is go "i. ng hunky dor·y, IAH~ are going to be fine in career development and education, no problem getting people into the syst.E:1 1n, and no 1.uorry"i.ng about. IAJhether or not they will bE! t c a c I·Li n g I o r' J. f t 1·1 '~ I'' E~ i s g o i n g t o b~~ a class for thern to go to whE:Hl .lt COITI(;!S to st.ud~Hit.S. So w~:! hi.·1V~1 a lot of conc(,H'ns, Mr. Sp~1al<er, when it comes to the Social Services Estimates.

Some of them were addressed and some of the rn IAHH' e not add res s e d . I IAJO u 1 d hope that the ministers who are responsible for E:1ach of those L18S9 May 12, 1988 Vol XL departments, and others I havE~ not touched on, will address the concerns we have mentioned. ThE! overlying and OVE!rridJ.ng onE!, IAJh:ich has beE!n in thc,1 air in the last few days, is health care. ThH hon. the M"i.n:is tE:H' of H~1al th cast aspersions on our han . HeaJ.th c d. t: i c b y s a y i. n g t h i!t t '"' C:! a r e t:rying to sensationaJ.iH! it. SomE:1tJ.m(,1S, Mr·.

SfHH'Ik~~r, you i'H'E• thE!re and you ar'E! saying, 1 Look, l·.:h:i.s 1.~; R pr·oblern. ltllill you sr,!E! it.? 1 But if they do not want to s 0.1 e t: h c;! p 1~ o b l. c~ m , M r . S p c,1 a k E! r· , thE!re is not much u.Je can do about Jt. And thoy drA not going t.o clo anything about it if thE!Y do not s E! e i 1: . N OIAJ, ~.: h a 1.: i ~; n :i c c;! , good , simple logic. You have got to see ~ problem :in order to do something about it. NoiAJ, I do not: thJ.nk the M:i.nistE!r of Health or the administration - MR. SIMMONS: None not is see. so bJ.ind MR. K. AYLWARD: as he who w:i.J.J. That is r·i.ght.

None;! '.i.s so bJ.:ind as he u.Jho will not SE!E!. Mr. SpeahH', if you do not st:H! :it, you are not goJ.ng to bE! ab1E! ·to so1VE! i. t:. . So we bring these concerns, especially in the hE!cllth carE! sysl:~~m and educat'i.on syst·. (~lfl. l: o t.hE:1 forefront in this House. Tht:~y need t:o be i":ddressod by l·.: hr.:! hon. ministers responsible. The M i n ·i. ~; L f~ I" o f ~ l e r.1l t. h , i. l ~; ~~ o 11'1 s , i s just gotng ·to ride it out, 1~: !'1: hE!!~ g o , rl n d l. E! t t h c,1 s e p e o p 1 c,~ '"' h o n E!

"~ d elective surgery, not to rnonU.on om~~rgcHJcy sur'g0.H'Y, st.dy out thE·r·e in the wildernE!SS; he is not goi. ng l:o bot.he:' r to hr.·\VC.;! l: hE!'.ir· cases dealt w:ith. No. 3 S R1859

I t:hi.nk t·.hat i.s a sh;:~meful ~~~~:~y to deal with it, and I think WE:1 sh01.1ld look dl~. othe1" L~lc:~y~; of solving the problem . Covering up :is not good Elnough, Mr· . Sp~~ak~:!r, and one of these days this gouernmE!I1~~ lALi.lJ. helve to acCE:1pt. responsibility for some of its actions ouer the lctst seventeen years. I am IAJondering when that day IAri.ll occur. T have not s~H!I'l it in my three years here . Of course, they only have a little more time to take that responsibility, Mr . Speaker. Pretty soon they wi11 not have to worry about it a whoh1 lot.

But the thing is, I am si.ck and tired of hearing, Well, this has b~~en going on for years . These bed closures have been going on for YE!ars. They have bElen going in Tory years. That is when they have been going on, and it is about tlme government recognized it. SOME HON. MEMBFRS: Hedr, h~:lal"! MR. K. AYLWARD: It is about tirne:1 thE:1Y said, It is a phenom~~non thr.1l·: has 'corne <.~bout. since we hav<,1 bee:1n in pOIAJer, not the bad old Liberals of twenty years ago. We arE! the Opposition. We are not the gouernmont yet, So you can blamE! us for· so much, but t~JH are not there YE!t.

Give us a chanCE! and IAJB will do it. Thr.lt ts not i:t problem. But the thing is your are accountablE!. You have got. be held accountable. You have been shamelt~ss in not taking propE!r responsibility, especially in health care. It is tirne you did something about it; dt.:!alt wi·th it instead of giving us words. I hope to see some changes soon. If not, Mr. Speak<,H', we IAJ:i.ll mal«.:> the:1 changes. Thank you very much. Ll860 Mi'.lY 12, 1988 Vol XL SOMF liON. MF.:MB E RS : Hear, he:1ar! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. t.h~>. M'inis tc:lr of Housing, MR.

PEACH : I would like to make some brief comm~~nts a~; i.t r·elat.E!S l':o thE! de bate . I a polo g i z e , M r . S pea kE:H' , For my cracki.ng voice today, however, I IAiill try to use up rny time:! - as mc.:1aningfully a s I can, with that in mind. I thjnk, Mr. SpE!akt.:!r, if we look ~t our budget and at our Estimates, as we have over the pc:~st. nurnbc.:H' of IAJE!eks in the various Committees, we have discussed expenditures for the various departments. If we just went back for a minute, M r .

S p (,l a k e r , t o b u d g ~ = ! t d c:\ y i n t h :.L s hon, House, I think :it lAJas a VE!ry important and a very healthy climate that was dE!liuE:lrE!d in thE! ~:)p(,10Ch by OUI" M'i.nistc:lr' of Finance on that particular day, because there h~s been very little criticism since the delivery of t: h a L b u d g P. t . I +: h t n k , b y a n d large, many people in thE! ProvinCE! IAIE! r• e S h 0 C k ('! d t 0 S (,1 E! t:. h (.~ t:. IAJ(,1 IAI~:! r• 1?. responsible enough, Ml". Sp<,,akE!r, to r(:1duce Hw vc,~ry fd.ght:E•n:.i.ng deficit we had in our current account .

I do not th'ink anyone would be fearful of saying that it was really a frightening deficit. WI·H,Hl we go bac.!< to thE! fact, Mr. Speaker, that in april 1987 we projected that we would haue a deficit in current account of $173 rnill:ion, I ·th'ink it was c~xtrernE!ly important that the government of the clay would address that par·U .cular pr·oblern. And we did, Mr·. Sp<,~cllkE:H', :in sl·:ylc ,1, bociHISe IAJE! found that our deficit was reduced t 0 S 0 In(-'! $ ~j 8 lTI i 1.1 ·j 0 n , IAJ h oi. C h IAI d S a 11 No. 3 S R1860

overall saving or reduction of $115 million. Added to that, Mr·. Speaker, is the fact thc:t.t t.•.H:~ projected that thE! current account deficit for this year would be only in the rangE! of $41 million. I think that, Mr·. Speakc-?.r, os somewhat of an overview of what is really happening here in the ProvincE!. I Hdnk there IAJere quite! a numbe!r of positive factors that contr·ibut.ed to the great rediJction "in our· df:!f:i.c.i.t. The,~ fact: t.hal·.: 1.110 had a IJer·y large incrr:~ase in r·etaiJ. sal.f~S tax rE:~VfHliH~, I t:hi.n!<, Mr·.

Speaker·, spoke IAJC->.11 of thE! fact l:h.:-1 t: peopl(! do have confidence in our economy and they aro spf~nd'i.ng rnonoy. And the;! fact that there was some $26 million in l"etai.J. sal<-:~s tr.lx in tho a11l~.omobi.lr:! industr·y does not indicate that people are scared or afraid to spend money in our Province. Mr. Speaker, our fish products during the past year yielded a very high price and, of course, some very high prices were paid