Volume 4 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4th. Session VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDAY, APRIL 16, 1975 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE M. JAMES RUSSELL Number 33

April 16, 1975 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR . SPEAKER; Order, please! Tape no. 1493 STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Fisheries. Page 1 - mw HON. J.C. CROSBIE (Minister of Fisheries): Mr.

Speaker, I just want to state on behalf of the government that our position is that if honourable gentlemen opposite want to continue with the debate on the Mines and Energy estimates tqday so they can discuss energy and tl\e oil and gas crisis as they were so anxious to do in the last few days that it is quite acceptable to the government if the Opposition wihes to continue on - SOME HON, HEMBEIS: (Inaudible). MR. SPF.AKER: Order, please! MR. CROSBIE : - to continue on with the debate. SOME HON. KiKllERS: (Inaudible). MR. SP!AJCD: Order, please: MR.. NEARY: MR. CROSBIE: of course, yes. MR. NE.ARY: Mll.

CI.OSIIE : When will we get the Private Members' Day? Well you will get Private Members' Day next week, Is that two days? No, no, one day. SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, that arrangement is completely - SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). Mil.· SP~ : Order, please! MR. NEARY: - that arrangement, Sir, is completely unsatisfactory to the Opposition. We want Private Members' Day. If the minister is prepared to let us have another day this week for Private Members' Day, we would ~e prepared to consider the matter.

April 16, 1975 Tape no. 1493 Page 2 - SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). MR. CROSBIE : Mr. Speaker, it is simply a question of priorities, If is not a priority of the Opposition to discuss that subject, we will leave it until tomorrow. MR. NEARY: Right. PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Fina.nee. SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). HON. H. R. V. EARLE (Minister of Finance): Mr, Speaker, I have a petition here - SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). AN HON. MEMBER: You have been shooting off all week. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

NEARY: You are very touchy on that subject. MR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, I have a petition here signed by just about all the residents of Wreck Cove, Fortune Bay. Wreck Cove, which is now known as Tibbos Hill, but they still like to call it Wreck Cove, is a small settlement about three miles off the main highroad between Belleoram and Coomb's Cove. The prayer of this petition is that the short stretch of road of approximately three miles be upgraded and that pavement be done in the settlement of Wreck Cove. As I said, Mr.

Speaker, this is one of the most difficult and probably one of the most picturesque areas in Newfoundland as far as roads are concerned. It is very, very hilly, steep, narrow, twisting and a very difficult place in which to place roads in any case. Their problem in that particular area is that they operate a school bus to the high school at English Harbour West, and the children from Wreck Cove have to take the school bus under, of course, all kinds of conditions during the winter. On some occasions the road is extremely slippery and dangerous. There is no question that the road needs to be upgraded. It 4388

April 16, 1975 Tape no. 1493 Page 3 is an expensive and difficult task but as the peo.ple of Wreck Cove are very energetic, conscientious, hard-working people, I do not think there is any welfare in the settlement, they are all deep-~ea fisheraen, and as they intend to keep _their homes there and to live in that area, I have the utmost regard for them and stroqly support this petition that the road should be upgraded. lncidentially, there is s011.e road work going on in that area and more will be done this season.

So I intend to use my best efforts on my colleague,the Minister of Transportation and Communications .to see if that particular short stretch of road can be upgraded and some pavement placed in the settlement of Wreck' Cove. I, therefore, have much pleasure in presenting this petition in asking that it be referred to the department to which it relates. MR. A. EVANS: MR. SPEAKER.: Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure - The Hon. Member for Burgeo. MR. EVANS: - to support the petition so ably presented by my colleague, the Minister of Finance. I know the people in Wreck nove quite well.

I have a lot of great personal friends there, and I would have to reiterate what the minister has already stated. They are some of the hardest working and most industrious people that you would find anywhere in this Province, and it gives me great pleasure, as I say, to support this petition . And I hope they will have their wish fulfilled. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear! Hear! MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Hermitage. MR. R. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to rise on behalf of my colleagues and support the petition presented by the Minister of Finance and the member for Fortune Bay to the effect that some upgrading be done in the Wreck Cove or the Tibbos Hill area. It is a prayer that we can heartily support, and it is wi t it pleasure I do so. I do hope the minister will, ash~ has indicated, use his influence with the Minister of Transportation to see that this

section of road is improved this year. The 4389

Apri I 16, lQ75 Tape 1494 IB-1 people of nearby Coomh 's Cove of course, could cite for the people of Tihhos Pill a very sad story, one that comes to the matter of leaning on the minister to get things done. But, that is another story which is perhaps not pertinent here, Mr. Speaker. Let me say though, it is c1nne, 'fr. Speaker, just for the record, the Coomb 's Cove

section has heen cinne. There is a story behind that too, a story that the minister himself cann0t take too much credit for. I was going to say though, ~r. Speaker, that what has happened here this 1'1fternoon, as the. minister presents the petition, is fairly sir,nificant, a significance that has not been lost on me. While I read in the paper that a number of members have obtained a list from the minister ahout what is to he done, for some reason the Minister of Finance has no such luck with the Minister of Transportation. I certainly wish him better luck next time with the min:lster. M_\l. DUNPHY:_ MR.

SIMMONS: Out of order! Out of order! Well, the honourable Member for St. (;eorge 's would certainly know, ~rr. Speaker. I do not know much he does not know. ~R. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! '1R. DUNP!W: Order, please! MR. SP'MONS: You are getting touchy. Mil. CROSRIE: We are not getting touchy at all. There are certain rules, ''r. SpeRker - the honourable gentleman can rise an<l support the petitton or not,hut he cannot introduce a debate on other issues, and he is doing tliat nnw. 'IR. SP'l"DNS: Mr.

Speaker, it is not my purpose to allow the Minister of Finance to get into a charade as he is so oft~n happy to do. I wil.J inncPPd with the matter at hand. 1 am happy to support the petition. J do hope that the }linister of Transportation will see fit to grant the prayer 0f the petition. In this respect I do hope that the pe0ple of Wreck Cove or Tibbos Hill have a lot more luck in p;ctting immediate action on this than their counterparts in the nearby community of r.oomh's Cove had a year or so ago. ~'1'. SPF.AKf:R: The honourable 1-{inister of Transportation and Communications• l!t'l • .l. ROUSSEAU (MTNISTEJ!

OF TRANSPORTATION A.ND CO !WlNJCATlONS) : "Ir. 4390

April 16, 1975 Tape 1494 Jll-2 Speaker, I certainly will consider the petition placed before the House by the honourable member of the district, the Minister of Finance and my colleague. We are also aware,of course:of the problem in the area of Boxey. We will certainly give it sympathetic consideration. But, I have to say, Mr. Speaker, that the more I hear from the Member for Hermitage the more upset I get. You know, he in effect stood up today and called me a liar which I am not prepared to accept when he suggests - MR, SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

The honourable Minister of Finance rose a few moments ago and said that persons when supporting petitions could speak to the prayer of the petitions being presented and should not get into a dehate on other matters. That is quite correct and very correct, and the Chair feels that the honourable 1-<inister of Transportati.on and Communications is entitled to speak in support of the petit1on but not entitled to get off on another debate on the topic. MR. ROUSSF.All: ~ay I rise on a point of privilege? AN HONOURABLE ME~ER: A point of order. MR. ROUSSEAU: May I rise on a point of privilege?

On two Late Shows here, Sir, in the past two weeks, I have been asked for a Jist of highways. I have told honourable members of this House that I do not have a list of highways. The inference by the ~ember for Hermitage for about the umpteenth time in this House is that there is a list. In effect he is not prepared to take my word. Now, T do not think that is_ fair. I have tried on two consecutive Thursday Late Shows to expla:ln the situation. I am not now even aware of how much work we can do w:I th the budget we have until we get the initial projects in to find what the costs are, Mr.

Speaker, on reconstruction and on pavement. When we get the DREE Agreement signed, we will tell people about it. But, I resent the implication. You know, I had the misfortune of having the honourable member as a colleague in the teaching profession. Do not make it unfortunate to have you an honourable member of this House as well. I resent the implication of being called a liar. I resent the implication -

Ap ril Hi, l <HS Tape Uq4 18-3 AN HONOURABU:. MEJl'BF.R: Hear! Hear! I resent the implication of the inference of a list when l say t~ere is no list. If the honourable member is not prepared to take th11t, then that is his tough luck. Now, I stand up here and I have not lied to the people of this Province in my three years, I pride myself on my honour as a member of this House of Assemhly. I say to Your Honour and the honourable Member for Hermitage that J do n.ot 1 ie. I do not mislead the House and I am not now misleading the Rous!' ,-rhen I say there is no list.

I do not l<now whether I can do twenty miles of pavement o:r 2,000 miles of pavement untiJ I get the amoimts that it is going to cost originally and the co.ntracts that are being called. The price of asphalt has tripled. The price of reconstruction , I do not know . You lmot1, to get in public life and to have that suggestion put at you after two five minute periods is repugnant to me, Mr.

Spealcer. · Kni:,wing the me.mher is an honourable member, which I will call him once more, :If th11 t member :f s not prepared to retract that, then he can no lon .ger in futur .e expect me to call him the honourable Member for llermi tage. SOME HON"OURARL E '-!EifJIERS : Hear! Rl~ar! lofR. SPF.AKER: !-1R • ~ IMJIION S : The honourable ~ember for Hermitage. I would like to speak to the matter of privilege, Mr. Speaker. :ff I may. 'Mr. Speaker, first of all, of course, I deeply re!',l'Pt that the Minister of Transportation got that impression. I think the tapes will show - .AN HONOl~ARLF: ME~Ell: Inaudible.

MR • SPF:AKEF: Order, please! MR . STM' ON ~: Mr. Speaker, I in no way imputed the ip.tegrity of the mi.nls t e r . l 11m upse t t hat he woul d t hi n!< that . I never called him a l:! ar. A' !IONO IIABt.f: M'El-tRER : l nau ~i b l e . - 91{ . Sl:-tMON~ : Mr, ~peak e r , may I be heard? fq, ~PF.AKF. : Ord Pr, ple ase! Order, please! }'R • n ?-IMONS: Or can they not stand the truth for a change. 4392

April 16, 1975 Tape 1495 (Afternoon) PL<. - 1 AN HON. MEMBER: Sit down! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I want to make it perfectly clear that the minister has had an opportunity to make his case clear. I .regret that he got that message. I have been upset over the two issue, the two Thursdays that he referred to. I have been upset but I do not think it was a matter of any lack of integrity on the part of the minister. I have not called him a liar. I have not meant to insinuate that he is a liar. I do not think he is a liar, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: I do not believe him. MR.

SIMMONS: I do not care who believes me, Mr. Speaker. I 1for 'the record,would like to convey my thoughts on the subject to the Minister of Transportation through you, Mr. Speaker. And it is for him to decide and others to decide whether what I an, saying is believed. But I want the record to show that I did not a few minutes ago, I never · implied, I said directly that it was my· impression that other members had better luck with the minister. But that was not meant to in any way cast aspersions on his integrity. I was indeed drawing on information which I have.

And if the minister wants proof I have it right here, where one member is quoted in the press, the Member for Port au Port, as saying that he has from the Minister .of Transpo_rtation a go-ahead on certain pieces of road, and that was what I was referring to. Now if in referring to what I have - documentation - is calling the minister a liar I am sorry. But I am quoting 1 and if it serves a purpose~ can read the whole thing.

But it is there pretty clear,in black and white, that the Member for Port au Port has been quoted as saying he has talked to the minister, and the minister has authorized him to go ahead and atJI1ounce certain pieces of road which are to be upgraded and paved. Mr. Speaker, it is in that vein I rise. I want to say to the gentleman for Labrador West 7his comments about the teacher part, I do not feel that way. I felt fortunate to have him as a colleague in the profession. AN HON. MEMBER: You were lucky. 4393

i\prH 16, 197 $ Tape 1495 (Afternoon) PK - 2 ~m . SIJIMONS: Yes, I was lucky. I was lucky. And I am deeply upset I that he would get the message that there is something personal here, because that is not the case at all, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! The Hon. Minister and C ommuni cat ion s rose on a point of privilege, and the honourable Member for Hermitage to reply to same. of Transportatifn the Chair allowed The Chair rules that it is perhaps a difference of opinion between the two members as to what was said and what was understood to have been said and feels that i t i s the end of that. MR.

ROUSSEAU: On the petition now, Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: If the honourable member - MR. ROUSSEAU : I was supporting a petition, yes, if I may. MR. SPEAKER: Yes. MR. ROUSSEAU: '(es. And I accept the honourable member's words. The petition so ably presented by my colleague,and I can understand the pro blems, we have had collDllunications from the honourable the member on the conditions not only in Wreck Cove but also in the town of Boxeyll think,which is close by as well. And, you know, we will certainly give every consideration to it. And I would like to take this opportunit y,if I may, Mr.

Speaker, to suggest to the honourable members of the House that the early part of the season until we get some cost estimates on the amount of road it is not economically possible to pave four and five miles of road in an isolated area. That is a difficult thing, especially - this morning we opened a tender and the tender was $29,50 per ton asphalt,- which was what? $9.00 - $8.00 or $9.00 a couple of years ago, or a year ago or so. i\nd until we get an indication of the cost we do not even know where t!te total amount of money we have, we do not know how much pavement is r:o.i.ng to be done.

Now we do not know how much we can do, $29.00 - if". wh,s t? uver three times as much as it was when we did the Deer Lake- Wiltondale Road, and I think it was about $9.00 a ton, plus the $6.00 for the oil that the department has to supply, it makes it almost $311.00 or $35.00 for a ton of asphalt. And that is - the honourable 4394

April 16, 1975 Tape 1495 (Afternoon) PK - 3 Member from Labrador North is nodding-you know, it is quite a price. And we have no indication of how much mileage we can do. But to do sections of four and five miles or two and three miles is a very difficult thing to do if it is isolated. And what we have to try and do as a matter of policy of this government is to spend the taxpayers' money, Mr. Speaker, to the best advantage, and to do that we have to reconstruct enough mileage so that a paving contract is warranted and will give us the best possible price.

I think that honourable members of the House should accept that. I am sure that all honourable members 1be they on this side of the House or be the) on the other side of the House, want to see the taxpayers' money put to the best use. 1,Je w J 11 try and do as much work as we can. We will try and do it in as large quantities as we can so that the most value for the taxpayers dollar comes out of it. And after the first few contracts we will get an indication of cost and we will have a better idea of just how much work we can do during the year. So I support the petition from the ·honourable :!ember for Fortune.

I support the petition so ably placed. You know, I support the petition of every honourable member of this House. And, you know, I would like to be able to say on behalf of goverrunent that we love to pave everything,but it cannot be done. But we will certainly try and do as much as we can with the prices that we have, and the amount of money at our availability to get the best possible return to the taxpayers of this Province. MR. SPEAKER: Are there any other petitions? 4395

April 16, 1975 Tape no. 1496 Page 1 - mw !·!R. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Bay de Verde. MR. HOWARD: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of twenty-nine fishermen of Grates Cove, The prayer of the petition reads as follows: We, the undersigned, fishermen of Grates Cove do hereby humbly request that the road from the main road to the public wha_rf, which is about one-twentieth of a mile in length and over which all fishing gear and all fish caught must be hauled, be paved in 1975 while paving equipment is in the innnediate area. Mr.

Speaker, I support this petition, and I think back to last ~pring, prior to the fishermen in Grates Cove being able to utilize this wharf, I had to contact the Department of Transportation and Connnunications and ask them if they would remove from this particular wharf approximately two feet of gravel which flows down from this deep incline down to the wharf every Spring and Fall. I also met with some engineers who are familiar with paving, and they have informed me that the only way that this piece of road could be paved was for the asphalt to be laid and then be spread by a grader.

Because of the deep incline, it would be impossible for trucks to move from the wharf to the main highway if this were rolled in which is done on the highways. So it would have to be a rough pavement. Mr. Speaker, I fully support this petition,and I ask that it be placed on the table of this House and that it be referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Harbour Grace, MR. H. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition so ably presented by the member for Bay de Verde.

I am sure those twenty-nine fishermen who fish in that great historic town of Grates Cove are sincere in their request, and I trust that the department will see fit to pave this one-twentieth of a mile. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Labrador North. MR. M. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, we, on this side of the House, support the petition presented by the member for Bay de Verde. We, too, feel, Sir, 4396

April 16, 1975 Tape no. 1496 Page 2 - mw that the twenty-nine fishermen from Grates Cove, there are some very good friends of mine who come from Grates Cove, and I am sure that they are sincere about wanting that pavement done on ·that one-twentieth of a mile of road. I do not know how the Hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications would react to moving the equipment in, unless there is equipment in the nearby area to do one-twentieth of a mile of road or unless there is a small contractor in the area.

But I am sure, Sir, that we are sincere, and I hope that the minister will take it under advisement and see what we can do for the fishermen of Grates Cove. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Placentia East. MR. F. AYLWARD: Mr, Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of 1,000 really parents and individuals in the Placentia-Point Verde­ Southeast area, and their prayer is for the immediate improvement of the primary and elementary school in Placentia itself as well as the complete reconstruction of that facility as soon as possible. Now, I do not think in the time allotted to me, Mr.

Speaker, I could deal adequately with the problems presented to the parents of these children and to the children attending that school. N\Dllber one, it is very, very overcrowded and number two, there is a serious lack of proper water and sewerage facilities. That, of course, to some degree is attributable to the water system in the town it~elf.

And as you and members of the House of Assembly know, we have for s·ome years been bringing this ma.tter to the attention Df the House, and I ain glad that the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing is here, because he, himself, is Quite familiar with the problems in the area. And we have received $1,100,000 for the water and sewerage system for Placentia,in the Southeast, but the cost is considerable, and there are large areas out there presently without adequate sewerage facilities or water and included, of course, is this school.

The pressure in the school itself is insufficient to provide drinking water from the fountain, and it presented a health problem. The parents were very, very concerned about it, 4397

April H,, 1975, Tape 1497, Page 1 -- apb On1v vesterdav the school was obliged to close and I understand that the pipes are now being replaced, the pipes leading to the school. llut, Mr. Speaker, this is onlv just a temporary measure as was some other work done on the school last year. The Fire Commissioner for Placentia, Mr. Murphy, was very, very concerned about the safety of the school itself and at his request the Fire Commissioner here had the school inspected and he came up with certain requirements, some of which were completed, including the new wiring for the school.

Hut there are still certain aspects of that school,as far as the parents are concerned)that are very, very disturbing to them and they would certainly want to see, not too much money spent on that school, but enough to ensure the safety of the children. And the only real answer, of course, is to build a complete new school in the area. We are pleased to have here today, Mr.

Speaker, in the House the President of the Parent-Teachers' Association and the Fire Chief from the area as well as another member of the association who are quite concerned about this problem, because as you can appreciate, where the education and the safety of the children are involved everyone should be concerned. I would also like to mention this, Mr.

Speaker, in supPort of this petition and that is that that school,like all existing municipal facilities in the Placentia area was 1obliged to compete,or to meet thf excessive demands imposed upon these services by the large influx of residents from the Islands of Placentia Bay. Placentia itself received over 200 families and in excess of 100 or more, probably closer to 200 or 300 school children now attending this facility are children from parents who moved their complete and entire families from the other side of Placentia Bay.

And as 1 have mentioned so frequently in this honourable House, adequate recognition was not given these receiving centres by means of additional money to meet the additional burdens imposed upon the sct1ool facilities and, of course, the municipal facilities. So I think the people of Placentia and Point Verde, 4399

April 16, 1975, Tape 1497, Page 2 -- apb Southeast, Bonds Path and all this area have a demand, Mr. Speaker, which is very, very reasonable and I am sure it has the complete support of all members of this House, in particular the Minister of Education, because this area is administered by the same board that administers my district.

So with the clout of the Minister of· Education I sincerely trust that he will see fit to make whatever assistance he can available to the board in Placentia, to help build this new facility, and before it is built, of course, to improve it to meet the requirements of the school today. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Minister of Education. HON. G.R.OTTENHEIMER (Mini ster of Education): Mr. Speaker , the honourable gentleman from Placentia East presented the petition from the parents of the Placentia area.

Actually, earlier this morning, just before lunchtime, I had the pleasure of meeting with the three people referred to by the member for the district when they kindly gave me a copy of their .petition and discussed with me the problems referred to therein, and their wishes and requests as put forward by the honourable the Member for Placentia East. Essentially it refers to the school facility for the primary and elementary students in the Placentia area and as~s for the improvements to the existing facility and then, of course, the second

part 1for new school facilities, I am certainly pleased to have met with them this morning, to have gotten the kind of opportunity to discuss their p_roblems at first hand, and as I mentioned to them, I shall certainly draw these matters to the attention of the school board. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: The honourable the Member for Bell Island. Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House support the petition presented by the Member for Placentia East on behalf of parents of school children in the Southeast - Placentia - Point Verde area. I am a little bit familiar with that area, Sir, and I must say that the member made a very strong case on behalf of 4399

AnriJ 16, 1975, Tape 1497, Page 3 -- aob the peopl e who signed t he petition . And t he member also, Sir. whether he realizes it or not, made a very stronB argument for more asi;istance, financial assistan .ce for school boards that we have been say ing all along over here . ~·y collea~ue, the Memher for St , Barbe North, who is our sookesman on educational matteri;, Sir. hai; been sayin y. this all along. The school boards need :nore financial assist ance in order to carry out these kinds of. caoital works. At the moment, Sir, t hey are in a s trait- jacke t. ·11,ere ii': nothing they can do

April 16, 1975 Tape 1498 (Afternoon) PK - 1 MR. NEARY: and so I am glad to see that at least one of the members on the government side agrees with the Opposition that the school boards should be given more money in order to improve these kind of schools that the minister described, and to build new schools that are so badly needed.

And I hope that the Minister of Education will take note of this and see that the money is made available because this is the only way that the facilities are going to be improved because, Sir, the petition really cannot be acted upon by this House except that the Minister of Education can merely act as a rubber stamp and just pass the petition on to the school board. It is the school board who has to take the initiative. And the minister may prod and encourage the school board responsible for that school to build a new school, but first of all to upgrade the school and then build a new one.

But they can always come back at the minister and say,well give us the money, give us the tools and we will finish the job. AN HON. MmmER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of }tines and Energy. HON; L. BARRY (MINISTF.R OF MINES AND ENERGY): Mr. Speaker, I take pleasure in supporting the petition of the honourable Member for Placentia East.

And I would like to attest to the accuracy of his statements with respect to the pressure put on communities that were receiving centers for people who have been relocated from Placentia Bay because I can testify to this from first-hand knowledge as to what is happening on the other side of the Bay in Marystown where we have exactly the same situation, and again specifically with respect to the elementary school level where we have considerable increases in the null)bers of students that require access to these schools, We have considerable pressure on other services in the community.

And prior to or during this resettlement programme we did not have adequate consideration of the needs of these receiving centers that would permit the .growth and development of infrastructure to look after the increased numbers of people who had moved in from the outlying areas. And, Mr. Speaker, as I say this is a problem on both sides of Placentia Bay. And I take great 4401

April 16, 1975 Tape 1498 (Afternoon) PK - 2 pleasure again in supporting the petition of the honourable member. MR. SPF.AKER : Are there any other petitions? ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SPE.AKER: The Hon. Member for Bell Island. MR. S. A. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Mines and Energy, Sir, has any reaction to an

article in the Mining Journal of Canada that suggested that mining companies will avoid us like the plague in future because if we implement the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Mining in Newfoundland? MR. SPEAKER : The Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: I would like to make a reaction to that.

I would like to say to the mining companies of Canada, of this Province or outside of this Province, I would like to say to The Northern Miner that this government will not be pressured, this government will not be bullied, this government will not be threatened into disregarding any of the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Mineral Revenue. We are not committed, Mr. Speaker, to implementing any of them, but we are committed and we intend to carefully s tudy every recommendation of that Royal Commission. I hope, Mr.

Speaker, in the near future to be able to indicate with greater certainty and precision, the approach of government to the various recommendations. There are one or two recouunendations where I can see they might be causing concern justifiably to industry across Canada, to companies that might be interested in investing here. But I submit, Mr.

Speaker, to the mining companies of Canada who are continuously complaining that their positions are misunderstood 1who are continuously complaining about the fact that people do not realize they have to make profits in order to be able to reinvest 1that this type of approach, this type of attempt to put undue pressure on government, to make speedy decisions on matters of such importance to this Province that this approach, Mr. Speaker, is one that does not work, and will not work in Newfoundland. AN HON . }!EMBER : Hear! Hear! 4402

April 16, 1975 Tape 1499 IR-1 The people of this Province, Mr. Speaker, are convinced, and this government is convinced that we have not in the past nhtained adequate benefits from the development of our natural resources. We intend, Mr. Speaker, as I have said, not to take any action on this royal comm_ission until every interested party has had an opportunity to make reconunendation to us on the report of the royal commission. Mr. Speaker, indeed over the next several weeks I have meetings arranged with parties who have expressed the utmost concern. But, we are not going t o be rushed, Mr. Speaker.

We are not going to be bullied, We are not going to be pressured into ignoring any of the recoDDTiendations. We would not be doing the job that the people of this Province expect if we did not carefully consider every recommendation however unusual or wide- . ranging, far-reaching it might be. We intend to do this. We brought in a royal commission in 1Q74, Mr. Speaker, in the Spring of 1974 it was appointed. That royal commission brought in its report in the Fall of 1974, November, or December, 1974~ probably the quickest time any royal commission has ever report .ed.

A lot; of hard work was put in in a short time. This government, Mr. Speaker, released that royal commission to industry and to honourable members of this House and to the Newfoundland public within a matter of two months, probably again the shortest time in Newfoundland's history that a _ royal coDDTiission report has been released. We made it clear from day one that we were prepared to consult fully with industry before ,implementing the recommendations.

Now, I submit to The Northern Miner that they would be better suited to making representation on the issues rather than at temp ting to coerce or force this government in to speedily acceding to their requests. We will not do it. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the honourable the Premier. Would the honourable the Premier care to react to a statement today made by the Liberal Premier of Prince Edward Island, Premier Campbell , to the effect that he would like to see co-operative union amongst the Maritime Provinces especially in matters concerning energy and transportation.

How does our government and our Premier react to that? 4403

Arri 1 ln, 197'l Tape 1499 IR-2 'IR. SPEAKER: The honourahle the Premier. HON. F. n. MOORES (PREMIER) : Mr. Speaker, I think it is fairly obvious . Tao not think the Memher for Bell Island could have been listening when we got hacl< from the Energy Conference whereby the Liberal, as he sa:ln - MP. NEARY: All I heard about was the :Increase in gasoline and - MR. SPFAKER: Order , please! MR.

MOORES: - Premier of Prince Edward Island took the same stand as we d:ln at that time hased amongst other considerations on the establishment of a rer,ional grid in Eastern Canada which would provide a market for some of the power, potential power, hydro power from Labrador, Quebec. Transporation is a mutual problem we have in Eastern Canada.

The sort of question that the honourable Member for Bell Island asked, whether we support a hetter transportation system and a regional grid for hydro-electric power co-operatively with the other provinces in Eastern ranada, Sir, is something that we have be.en saying for two years, and the honourable Member for Bell Island only read about it today. AN HOll!OURMlLE ~MRER: Hear! Hear! MR. NEARY: i"'r.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Health, ~ir, could t.ell the 'flouse the target date for the completion of the Health Science Complex, target date for the completion of the Health Science Complex over hen• at the university? '1P.. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Health. HON. nR. A.T. ROWE (~INISTER OF HEALTH): Yes, Mr. Speaker. The Health Science Complex which is the largest project every undertaken in health :In this Province is scheduled to be completed sometime in 1976. This, of course, w:1.11 depend upon the labour situation between now and then.

There has been considerable time lost to date because of the labour unrest situation, but I would have to say that there are two components of the fioalth Science r.omplex, the new general hospital and the new n1ed I c-'l l school. Of these two components, the part which will be occupied ~y the medical school is now partially completed and is partially in oper;ition. That w1.ll continue to be phased in and a large number of the medical students are now being taught in the new facility. 4404

April 16, 1975 Tap e 1 499 But, as far as the hospital aspect 1.s conce rned , t hat will not he completed until sometime in 197~ . TB-3 ~!R. NF.ARY: A supplementary questi on, Mr. Speaker . Would the ~injster o f Flealth care to tell the House then if any considerati on is heinr. given t o what will be done with the old facilities down at t hP C,enerAl Rospi tal when the new nealth Science Complex i s completed and open foe business? MIi . ROWE: Yes, Mr. ~peaker. There has been a fair Mt of consideration given to the utilization of the old Gene ral !!ospi tal on completlo n of the ne,., faci.lity .

F,ssen tially it will become what they call a convalescent chronic - care unit. By convalescent unit we mean a number of beds which will be available to all hospitals in St . John's fo r the care of t he acute convalescent. This indicates a pei:-son who has had a major operatio n at one of the St . John's hospitals , af t e r the few days when the need for intensive nursing care is ove r and they are transferred to the General where a lesser form of nursin~ can be given, and thus give us more benefit of utilization of the acute beds i n other hospitals . This has the co- ope r ation of the hospitals in St.

John's . In addition to this there .will be a number of beds set asicle for chronic nursing and extended care and certain faciliti e s for rehabilitation and various other ancillary proj ects. 44 05·

April 16, 1975 Tape No. 1500 NM - 1 MR, NP.ARY: I wonder if the Minister of Provincial Affairs, Sir, would like to react to charges made today by me!llbers of the City Council that government were dragging their seals on the location of a regional dump in the St. John's area. MR . SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Provincial Affairs and the Environment. ~IR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, the alternate site as proposed by the honourable Member for St. John's South is between five and ten miles west on the Trans Canada Highway from St.

John's and because of frost and snow it has not be~n possible to adequately survey the site but it is hoped in the near future that we will be able to get together with Municipal Affairs and Housing and the councils involved, sit down ar.d determine on what basis we will survey the site and who will bear the cost of it. We, as everybody knows by now, entered into an agreement with federal government some time ago and undertook~ study which cost them around $50,000 for the area in the Ruby Line site.

This turned out to be unacceptable to the people who live in that site,and not being the type of government being dictatorial and forcing these situations upon people, we are quite flexible,and we decided that we would he open to suggestions and the last dated suggestion is one where a site might be available about five or ten miles from St. John's so we will have to wait until the study is conducted and we will see whether or not there is enough overburden there to adequately take care of r,arhage under the sanitary land fill system. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the honourable the Premier.

Will the Premier tell the House whether or not his government has considered issuin!' instructions to government institutions to purchase the surplus potatoes that our potato producers have on hand at the present time. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Prel)lier. MR. MOORES: I do not know the answer to the question. I will certainly take notice of it and advise the member tomorrow, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Sir, would the honourable the Premier care to tell the House if there are any late developments concerning the third paper mill at 4406

April 16, 1975 Tape No. 1500 NM - 2 Come By Chance? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Member for Labrador South. MR. MARTIN: I have a question, Mr. Speaker, for the honourable the Minister of Education, two-part question, first of all is the government prepared to give us a progress report on the matter of the elementary school at Forteau, are they concerned? Secondly,are they prepared to allow the Straits of Bell Isle School Board to c~ntinue to ignore this problem any longer? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Education. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, in answer to that question, are we concerned, we certainly are. And the second part.I think,was to the effect that is the Department of Education going to allow a cert.1 i 11 school board to, I forget the exact term, but to ignore the situation there. Certainly the answer there is no,but I think I must add to that iti defence of the school board that to my knowledge and uncierstandinr,, they have not ignored it or been without concern. I think I must in fairness add that.

With respect to a progress report I would hope to be ·in a better position to give a later one because there is nothing new to add apart from a question asked by the honourable Member for Labrador North a couple of days ago, the superintendent for that district,an~ the superintendent of course is the professional adviser, employee, offic _er of the school board> the superintendent fer that area is due in Forteau this evening and is planning to meet with a community meeting or representatives of the community this evening, to again discuss the situation ar.d see what the alternatives are.

The only alternatives really are the use of one of the other two halls and to see specifically whether that is in fact possible. So this evening the Superientendent for the Straits School Board, Mr. Anthony Genge, is due to be in Forteau and to meet with the parents of that community. I would expect that by tomorrow we will have a report as to what transpired at the meeting and what consensus was arrived .at. 4401

April 16, 1975. Tape 1501 RH - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Labrador South. }1R. M. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, we have been waiting, it seems, for a month now for all kinds of progress reports. Just as a clarification of government policy I am wondering whether the minister can tell us exactly how much leeway school boards have in this respect? How long must a school be closed before government decides that a crisis has developed. MR.

OTTENIIEIMER: The second part of the question was how long need a school be closed before government will make available an alternative site? !~_l ~RTIN: No, how long before you decide that there is a crisis? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, of course, the word crisis can mean different things to different people. Obviously, there is a problem. There is no doubt about that and I suppose whether one calls that a problern,and I am not arguing that it is not a crisis or that it is, 1,aturally that is a question of individual

interpretation. All I can say is that within the past few weeks, we have had two or three engineers there,as the honourable gentleman knows, sanitation engineers, furnance en~ineers, whatever one calls them, and I think of both types and this specialist in school construction. They have inspected the premises thoroughly, the furnace and ventilation. They made some recommendations as to re>painting 1 which has been done,as to some work under the school, some cleaning under the school and some other recommendations all of which to the best of my knowledge have been implemented.

They reported that they,from an engineering point of view,could not ascribe any cause from point of view of ventilation or anything else why people should be ill from attending the school. Now, from the medical point of view, there were, I believe, ~.o doctors from the area there and the chief medical health officer for the Province, ~r. Severs, was in Forteau ten days, two weeks, in that period of time as well and he had submitted a report to the Minister of Health of whicl1 I have a copy, of which the school board has a copy. None of 4408

April 16, 1975. Tape 1501 RH - '.!. these medical on-the-spot inspections were able to ascrihe any scientific reason why people should be 111 by attending the school. I.f one could think of any other area of expertise to send there, then one would he glad to send it. But if you have had more than one medical opinion, you have had some opinions, several opinions,and you have had more than one engineer's opinion, then one does not know who else's opinion to ask in the sense of what other kind of profession or specialist would be in a position to have an opinion of any relevance.

There was investigation of the possibility of using one or both of two other halls in the community. One is a community hall and one is a hall o,med hy the Loyal Orange Association. Up to the present, and although residents there initially were in favour of that, up to the present their consensus has been that this would not be an improvement. Now, this is what is to be examined again this evening when the superintendent for the area meets with residents of the community in order to determine whether one or both of these buildings can or should be used.

Now, until one has the results of that, naturally I do not know what recommendations will come from that meeting which is due to take place this evening. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Labrador South. MR. MARTIN: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Without getting into debate of this thing, if the minister could just answer yes or no, lo111ether he is prepared at this point in time to make a political decision and order the school boards t~ take some action? MR. OTTENHEIMER: ~..r. Speaker, I cannot really answer that yes or no and have any kind of a meaningful answer.

If somebody could say to me, this is what the school board or anybody should do and that will solve the problem,and that were something reasonable and capable and possible of heing done, we would do it. But the doctors and the engineers who have been there, the engineers made some suggestions. They have been implemented. One was painting. One was cleaning underneath the school. They have been done. 4409

April 16, 1975 Tape no. 1502 Page 1 - mw If somebody of competence in the area can say, look, this is what needs to be done. You know, that window, you know, that done too, or something else,that done too. Certainly, we would be glad to instruct the school board to do it, and I am sure the school board would be very glad to do it on its own. But unless and until somebody with some knowledge can say, this is what needs to be done, then obviously neither the school board nor the Department of Education, you know, can require a specific act to be done when nobody can tell us what that act is. MR.

MARTIN: What the minister is saying is that he has nobody of any competence. MR. OTIENHEIMER: Nobody of what? MR. MARTIN: Of any competence. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Nobody of any competence? Is that what - no, Mr. Speaker, I think in all fairness to the people - AN HON . MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. OTTENHEIMER: - who have been there, if my competence is going to be adjudged by the Hon. Member for Bonavista North, then surely I feel that - MR. MOORES: Unfair. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes, as the Premier suggested, it might be a bit unfair. But no, Mr.

Speaker, I think in honesty and in fairneMs to the people who have been there - AN HON. MEMBER: "Gus'' does not approve. MR. OTTENHEIMER: - you know, there have been two doctors from the Grenfell Association, there has been the chief medical 'l}ealth officer of the Department of Health 1 there has been a school construction engineer from the Department of Education, and there have been either one or two other engineers, and I cannot certainly, and I would imagine - I can see the honourable gentleman, y.ou know, this is in his district. And he cannot describe the cause to it -any more than I can. None of us can.

But I would not think that he really meant to suggest that these individuals are, you know, 4410

April 16, 1975 Tape no. 1502 Page 2 - mw are incompetent. I do not think he did. Certainly in fairness to them, I would have to say that, as far as I am concerned, they certainly are competent. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the Minister of Transportation and Co11Dnunications, Sir.

Would the minister care to inform the House if the minister or any of the officials of his department were consulted on this matter of locating a new hanger employing some 300 people in Halifax, Nova Scotia by Eastern Provincial Airways before they took the decision to consolidate their mainland part of their operation? MR.SPEAKER: The Hon. !!inister of Transportation and Communications. MR. ROUSSEAU: No, the minister was not. Government may have been or somebody else may have been but the minister ~r the department were not aware of the full, complete reasoning behind the move. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Sir.

Is t IE minister aware that the Hon. Premier stated in this House yesterday that the government was awarEc of E.P.A. 's move to create this operation in Halifax? If the minister was aware of it, would he tell the House what action he took on it, if any? MR. MUSSEAU: Excuse me. MR". SPEAKER: The Hon. Premier. MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, that question was answered yesterday and the Hon. Member for Bell Island well knows it. He is trying to mix un here, as, I suppose it is a habit of the past, Mr.

Speaker, that he is used to government interfering in everyone's business because they usually put them in business, and made them successful in it. The fact is that there 1,-; s~ch a thing as private enterprise. There is such a thing as private companies, and it is not this government's business to tell E.P.A. where to assign their personnel. When it affects this Province directly, of course we do. If we can attract the business to this Province, of course we will. And this is what we are trying to do. But an internal decision 4411

April 16, 1975 Tape no . 1502 Page 3 - mw in the airline whereby they moved peopie fro111 Moncton to Halifax, I it would be like us complaining to Bell Tel.!!i)hone because they moved someone from Toronto to Vancouver instead of St, John's, It is just as asinine and the member knows it, Sir. AN HO~.. m:Mn.l•:R: Hear! Hear! MR. NEARY: A supplementary to the Hon. the Premier, Sir, who felt that he should leap in and answer the question.

Would the lllinister tell the House just what efforts were made on the part of the Premier an!. the administration to try t 'o Ulflue11,ce, not d.irect, influence E.P.A. to put this project that they are building in Halifax in Gander where we have all the facilities? MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, that question has been asked, He says · we have the facilities in Gander for 400 stewardesses. Even if the honourable member was there, I doubt if we would, Mr ..• Speaker. But the fact ls that the service centre for Gander h&!I been promoted by us as much as possible. We have contacted . Mt. Millet.

We have been in c::,ontin'1Cius conversation with him regarding or trying to get more E.P.A. stationary work fo.r the Province, BJ1d we will continue to do that ·. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, this is rather 4412

April lfi, 1975 Tape 1503 lll-1 a peculiar sort of horse trading where - is the Premier saying that we are accepting fifty or sixty jobs in Gander as compared to losing 300 or 350 to Nova Scotia? Is this the kind of horse trading the Premier is talking about? 11.fR. MORGAN: He is not saying that. Come on "Steve". MR. MOORES: 1"r. Speaker, the honourable Member for Bell Island :Is putting the same sort of position on this as he and the previous Premier did on the reopening of the mines on Bell Island, I mean the jobs lost or the jobs gained sort of thing. I mean he mixes up fipures, people, and of the economy, ~r.

Speaker, so that it is unique. The fact :Is in this regard the Province is doing everything possible with EPA. to get EPA as active in this Province as we possibly can. MR. NEARY: A supplementary to the Premier, Sir. Would the Prerrier inform the House if the government offered EPA any incentives to locate this multimillion dollar hanger in Gander and create some 300 or 400 jobs here on the Island of Newfoundland? Were there any incentives offered to EPA? MR. MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, when the honourable member speaks about incentives, I mean, you know, I would think possibly the biggest incentive ~•e can have in this Province is if the honourable member when he leaves Bell Island-Harbour Main moves right across the Gulf. But, that being beside the point, the fact is that of course we are trying to get people in here. We are not having giveaway programmes. The fact :Is that EPA have told us that the reason their personnel would be located in Halifax 1and move from Moncton and 1"ontreal and not from Newfoundland to that location,is because it is the central location on their route.

It is the place where they can most easily have changeovers under aircrafts of their operating personnel. That, even though we would love to have :It in Newfoundland, is a position that we are not in a position to argue about. We of course would like to have them here. Gander is the last stop on their run,as people know when they come to St. John's and go back to Gander. It is the last stop and it is not operationally desirable to have all your people at one end in case of fog the night before,or whatever the case might be. They want flexibility for that reason. 4413

Aprfl 1~, 197.5 Tape 1503 IB-2 "IR. NEARY: But this is a main training center. MR. MOORES: And their position is basically fairly reasonable. However with regard to the development of the service of the aircraft at Gander, the situation there is that we are offering every encouragement, every incentive we can. We want that sort of development at Gander. I know the people of r.ander want it. This government wants it. Sir, to the best of our kno,Jledge, F.PA want it as well. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the honourable the Premier could tell the House whether he 1 s going to take the advise of his colleague, the Minister nf Mines and Energy and go down to the governor and resign? l-!R. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NF.ARY: Is the Premirr going to take the advise of his colleague and go down to the governor and resign? ~. SPEAKER: Order, please! M'R. MOORES: -µr. Speaker, the answer to the question is yes. The question should have been, Sir, when. ~'R. NEARY: Yes, Sir, a supplementary. Could the Premier indicate or he a little more specific and give us the datel MR. l'OORF.S: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I will at the appropriate time. MR. NEARY: "'r. Speaker, a supplementary to the Premier. Could the honourable Premier gh•e us a sort of a time span? Would it he within the next two weeks, the next month? MR. MOORES: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I can. It will be before April 1, 1977. AN HONOUPARI.F. 1'1EMJIER: Hear! Hear! MR. THOMS: Hang on until the last minute. MR. SPEAKER: There is approximately three or four minutes left in the question period if the honourable M~mber for St. Barhe North has a question. MR. F.

Jl0WE: Well, I just have a short question, Mr, Speaker, to the ''inister of Municipal Affairs anrl Housing. Ras the minister received any communications or representations from the Community of Hodge's Cove protesting the $12.00 water fee for that community? MP.. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. HON. B. PF.CKFORD (1"INISTER OF MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSING) : There is no such thing as a $12 .on water fee. The honourable Member for St. B•rbe 4414

April 16, 1975 Tape 1503 TB- 3 North first of all should get his facts strai ght. MR . MURPHY: Did you hear the statew~nt on this mornjng and what he said about you? MR. PECKFORD: I have not received to date to my knowledge any representati on from the community or to1¥11, community l think 'it is , of Hodge!s Cove jn Trinity North protesting water or sewer rates, not to my knowledge up until today. I h ave the mail up until - the latest mail l have is riiht here. I just r eceived it. It takes me up to abo ut 3:27 this afternoon. So now, unless it came in since 3: 27 this afternoon, I would have seen it .

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: (Inaudible) or what or flower power? MR. SPEAKER: Order, ple ase! It is not flower power. It is Private Members' nay. So, we shal.l proc eed to motion number l on the Order Paper. I think the dehate was adjourned last day by t"he honour able Minister of Transpor1:cation and Communications . 441 5

April 16, 1975 MR. FOUSSEAU: MR. SPEAKER: Tape 1504 (Afternoon) PK - 1 Yes, Mr. Speaker, how much time do I have,by the way? The honourable minister has used up to five minutes, I understand, and has forty minutes left to speak. !TT'.. CROSBIE: On a point of order, Mr . Speaker, the honourable gentleman is a government minister replying to a motion moved by a member on the other side of the House. I therefore submit that he should have unlimited time. That the motion now before the House is a motion of non confidence in the government. It is a motion that calls for a Select Committee into certain matters.

And it is a motion that the government would regard as an non confidence motion if it was carried. And therefore I submit that the honourable minister who answers on behalf of the government in accordance with the Standing Orders - I will get the page number now - has unlimited time in replying to the motion.

Page 29, no member except the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition or a minister moving a government order and the member speaking reply immediately after such minister or a member making a motion of no confidence in the government which was done by the Member for Hermitage, and the minister replying thereto shall speak for more than forty-five minutes of time in any debate. The Minister of Transportation is replying in behalf of the government. And I submit this is a motion of non confidence and he has the right to talk for twelve hours, or twenty or three or anytime that he requires. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, that is not a point of order, Sir. That is childish, It is almost too foolish, Sir, to comment on. The Minister of Transportation and Communications does not have unlimited time. He is not a leader of a party in this honourable House. He is not, Sir, he is not moving a vote of non confidence in the government. I wish he was . A."l HON . M.E!-!BER: Inaudible . HR. NEARY: And he has no more privileges, Sir, than any other member of this honourable House outside of the Hon. the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition and my friend down here, the aember for Labrador South.

I do not know what the House Leader is up to, Sir, but whatever it is it is almost too foolish to talk about. MR. CROSBIE: He is a minister replying - 4416

April 16, 1975 Tape 1504 (Afternoon) PK - 2 MR. NEARY: No, he is not a minister replying, Sir. He is not. It is not a non confidence motion. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: No it is not. A.i.'l HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: It is merely a private member's resolution. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair at the moment feels that perhaps the minister may have only forty-five minutes, but it is not making that ruling at the present moment.

There are a few points the Chair wishes to consult with some honourable members at the table and will ask the Deputy Speaker to relieve me and to sort of advice the House before the forty-five minutes has expired in the honourable member's speech, MR. SIMMONS: Do we get the opportunity to speak to this point? Will we have further opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to speak to the point of order before a ruling is made? MR. SPEAKER: No, the Chair has taken the matter under advisement and will rule on it before the minister is finished his forty-five minutes • MR. F.

ROWE: •••• heard by Your Honour in the Chambers while the decision is being made or during the decision? MR. SPEAKER: MR. F. ROWE: If the - Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! If the Chair feels that representation from both sides of the House is necessary it will request honourable members to make such representations. MR; ROUSSEAU: Well, Mr. Speaker, if I may could I try it another way1 Maybe honourable gentlemen across the House could give me leave to speak, to answer the questions that were put forward since they are looking for the answers to it. Would the honourable members across the House do that?

AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROUSSEAU: You know, I want to know because I have some points to cover. Will you give me leave to speak and answer these points that were raised? MR. NEARY: How much time does the honourable member have? 4417

April 16, 197 5 MR. ROUSSEAU: HON. MEMBERS: Forty minutes. Inaudible. Tape 1504 (Afternoon) PK - 3 MR. F. ROWE: launches out into a vicious attack, you know, for the next forty minutes. If he is kind and sensible and all this sort of a thing - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. ROUSSEAU: We will give it due consideration at forty-five minutes. Okay, Mr. Speaker, you know, I will not accept that. I want forty-five minutes either one way or the other. You know, this is incomprehensible. You know, if the people of the Province - honestly there is sometimes I wish there was television here. Here we are, Mr.

Speaker, on two consecutive days moving for a special sitting of the House to discuss the oil situation in the Province. They get an opportunity today, and they deny that opportunity. They deny it. It is not very important. Now I am asking - HR. F. ROWE: On a point of order. MR. ROUSSEAU: - for a few minutes, Mr. Speaker, to try and reply to- HR. F. ROWE: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. ROUSSEAU: - a set of questions. MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): Order, please! Haybe I am anticipating the honourable member's point of order. The minister is irrelevant at this point, I think he knows that.

AN HON. ·!EMBER: Inaudible . MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): Unfortunately he has not persisted in the irrelcvance,consequently I cannot order him to take his place. However I would suggest to him that he might direct himself to the matter which is rightly before the House. MR. ROUSSEAU: Well 1maybe I can put it another way, Mr. Speaker. What pure unadulterated politics, what pure unadulterated politics that honourable 4418

April 16, 1975. Tape 1505 RH - 1 members on the other side of the House want to foist on the people .of this Province. This is not important enough to move to discuss something that they thought for two days that was important. This is pure politics. Give forty-five minutes, excellent, not because they want the answers, not because they want the answers, but only because they want to make political hay. I have every lease here that has been entered into the government since January 1, 1973 which I am prepared to put on the table of this House, but I cannot do it in forty minutes.

They have asked, the motion reads, Mr. Speaker, MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, if the minister will permit me, Sir. The way out of his dilemma, Sir, is not to make a speech about all of these things, but just table it. If the minister wants to table these documents, we would be very happy to let the minister table the documents. Table them. MR. ROUSSEAU: We are going to read it out. I am going to read it out. I am not goi.ng to table it because there are some names that the honourable members would like to see read out and should that there is no political patronage.

Anyway, we will go to the questions of the day and I will take the forty minutes, Mr. Speaker. I can see why honourable members of this House change from one day to the other. This time last year I never thought I would ever get to be like I have been in the House today, but I guess, with time, I guess, you get this little game of politics when people are trying to do the job they are supposed to be elected to this House for, but there is none of that stuff. Out with administra;ion, out with government, pure politics! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! Order, please!

The honourable member now only has thirty-five minutes left. He has yet to deal with the subject. MR. ROUSSEAU: To get on with the job anyway, Mr. Speaker. The la·st day I started to make a point. I only had a few minutes and I would like to make this point and I think it is important. Then I am going to answer the questions and what questions are not answered in forty-five minutes, 4419

April 16, 1C!75. Tape 1505 RH - 2 it will be unfortunate, but I am sure we have other able members on this side of the House who like to push a few things across before this debate is over. But we started last week on-or the week before, no, last week,on this item and three honourable members across the House spoke, the honourable Member from Hermitage, the honourable Member from St. Barbe North and the honourable Member from White Bay North, the Leader of the Opposition. I had a few minutes left when the six of the clock waR called. I started on a point, Mr.

Speaker, at that time that I would like to elaborate on at this point in time. There were points during the afternoon and I cannot recall, I do not have it written down for the honourable Member from Hermitage, so I do not know if he said it or not. There were times during the afternoon in the speech from the honourable the Member for St. Barbe North and the honourable the Member from White Bay North, the Leader of the Opposition, when I expected the gentleman in question to ride into the House on a white charger. I am not saying that is wrong. The gentleman is a gentleman, but I would just like to make a point.

We talk about negotiations, you know, there were negotiations going on in this situation. Nobody said there was not. We had been discussing that. There is no question about that. But the honourable members across the House tried to infer that the government were crooked')and by innuendo and by insinuation and by suggestion, what honourable members did to another gentleman in this Province 1which they have done on nUtnerous, previous occasions in dragging names across the floor of the House as if anybody involved with the government is crooked, is a crook, is a rogue and, r•r.

Speaker, that is one awful thing to occur in this House of Assembly. It has occurred consistently in my three years here, that anybody who does work with the government, anybody who does business with the government, anybody who gets a government contract is crooked, is a rogue and this is what the inference was. There is no question in my mind about that. MR . SPEAAER (Stagg): Order, please! There is a rather neat, procedural point here where the honourable member can accuse other honourable members 4420

April 16, 1975. Tape 1505 Bll - 3. of calling other people rogues and crooks and so on. It is getting into the realm of saying things indirectly which cannot be said directly and then accusing others of saying them. It is a point that I do not think has been decided upon, to my knowledge, but it is one that certainly will have to be decided upon if the honourable members, if this is going to be the tenor of the honourable member's speech. MR. ROUSSEAU: All I wanted to do, Mr. Speaker, was make that point, by innuendo. I will leave it there.

I think the honourable members know what I am talking about anyway, but quite - MR. ROWE: On a point of privilege. Since the minister insists that he wanted to make that point, Mr. Speaker, I would ask that he totally withdraw the statement because at no time did I say that the government engaged in crooked activity~nor did I imply that the government engaged in crooked activity,and nor did I imply therefore that Mr.

Craig Dobbin is a crook or was engaged in crooked activity or that he was a rogue; I would ask that the honourable the minister withdraw without qualification these particular statements that he has made because it is a very important point and he insists that he wanted to make that point. MR .• SD1MONS: Right. MR. ROWE: Now, I ask for an unqualified withdrawal of his remarks. MR.. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, MR. ROWE: A ruling please. MR. ROUSSEAU: I will - MR •. SPEAKER (Stagg): Inaudible. MR. ROUSSEAU: I will without qualification withdraw the statement that the honourable Member from St.

Barbe South said the words to the effect that I have used in the past few minutes. Is that satisfactory? 4421

April 16, 1975 Tape 1506 IB-1 We lrnow what the words are. Now, Mr. Speaker, anyway let us get to the po:lnt at hand,you know. There are a number of points raised by the honourahle memhers across the House who spoke on this issue, I can assure honourable members that if there is anything crooked about the issue, I would hardly be standing up to try and defend it on behalf of p,overnment. Now, honourable members across the House are attempting to score political points.

I accept that, but,you know, there are a number of matters of difference of opinion 1or whatever you may want to call it, in whi~h there is disagreement between both sides of the House. But, I am goin~ to attempt now to the best of my ability to lay before the House the facts as government sees them in respect to the number of issues arising as a result of the statements of the three honourable members last week. As I say,too, I am prepared to speak to the number of leases that have been entered into, list of dates and so on and extension dates that government have ente.red :Into. I am not prepared to table them.

I am prepared to give them in this House. AN HONn(TRl\.llLF. MEMllER: Inaudible. ~- ROTTSSF.Al!: It w:111 not be edited. It is a complete list. "IR. F. ROWE: Yes, well why not table it? }~. l'OlJSSEAU: Why not give me the opportunity to present them? AN H()NOURAllLF. MFMRER: Why not table them? MR. NEARY: Table them in the House. }IR. MORGAN: He is going to explain them. "'R. ROUSSF.AF: Now, let us go hack, Mr. Speaker, and try and put this in proper perspective. There is no question about one basic premise. That is that - do not look worried, it is a legitimate premise - government needs spAce.

There is no question about that,as far as I was concerned he fore, and I am sure, as the honourable 1-'inister of Public Works is now~ also sure that there :Is a need for space. We have had representations from iust ahnut every department in government for added space, and we have han representations from the honourable the Leader of the Opposition for more space. I think honourable members across the House will accept 4422

April 16, 1975 '!'ape 1506 IB-2 the fact that one of the happiest things the·y would like to see occur is added space in the Opposition rooms. I wrote the Leader of the Opposition back before I left the portfolio and said, I am sorry, therP is no space in the building. That premise we have to assume to be a correct one, that there is a need for space in this government. The Opposition have indicated that they need extra space. They have heen told that there is no extra space available.

Number two, there are a number of government departments and a number of government agencies which exist in many areas throughout the, well, the City of St. John's - I guess you could say the metropolitan area I suppose - but anyway the City of St. John's especially. '!'here are many different departments of government, many different agencies of government which exist in spaces, locations which are quite a distance from each other. Now, you know, it is all right for people in the City of St.

John's who know the city well, but people who have come in from outside the city and who have to visit maybe twe>, maybe three, maybe four and hopefully not,but unfortunately a possible five or six different locations. That is certainly not convenient to the people of this Province who have a right to visit any department or any agency to register requests or indignation or what have you. Now, this is certainly not an easy task to those unfamilar with the city.

We have said some two years ago as a government that we would like to consolidate all the bits and pieces of government departments into one central location. There is nothing wrong with that concept. I have never heard actually a statement from the Opposition to the effect that that was not a good idea. It was stated on radio. It was stated in the newspapers. It was stated publicly in the House that we indeed would like to consolidate the space requirements of all departments and agencies under at least, at the most two buildings, this one and one other so it is a convenience to the public of this Province.

Now, that being the case, govert'lment looked at the possibility of acquiring the extra space needed and to have it situated in one location. This was brought - by the wav. there was no deal, no shady deal, no underhandedness, no crookec1ness. 4423

April lf., 1975 Tape 1506 IB-3 As a matter of fact, the honourable gentlemen who wrote Dlf' as ministers, the honourable the Leader of the Opposition who wrote me, it we-nt to cabinet because I was inundated requests that we needed space. Everybody in government accepted the fact that they needed space because many of the gentlemen who made the decision to attempt to secure sufftc1ent space were indeed in the midst of looking for space- themselves. So, government in its wisdom decided that we would find out just what space was available.

To this end government directed the Minister of Public Works and Services, who was me at that time, to invitr proposals from people who might have the space required available. Four proposals were requested. One person choose not to submit a proposal, and three did. l'low, from that point in time government looked at the proposals and the honourable the members across the House last week threw arounn dates because the original request was made on September 30 and the first proposal came in on October 1, therefore there was a deal. The other proposal was October 11 which in my opinion, Mr.

Speaker, does not at all mean that the person who made a proposal on October 11 could not have dnne it on October 7. AN llONOUll/1.Rl,E ME~ER: Inaudible. MR. ROUSSEAU: llut, that for the honourable Member from Hermitage who was an admjnistrator who, I hope, I presume,took philosophy somewhere along the way, that is not a logical assumption. He may think that, and the •1onourable member may hope that was the case, but that does not lo~ically follow that because somebody has one ready on October 7, that none of the other two could not have done that.

That is illogical and helow, I th1nk, the thinking ability of the Member from Hermitage. nut, of course that is inferencestdrawing conclusions, duping the people as to the fact that he was already there as soon as he saw it in the newspaper. MP.. SPfAKER (STAGG): Order, please! MR. ROllSSF.AU: T withdraw it, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKF.R (STAGG): Duping the people is the controversial phrase . MR. ROllSSF.AU: I wi thrlraw it. '11' . ST'-ll-!ONS : Oh hoy, oh hoy! What are we seeing at all? What is it?

April 16, 1975 Tape 1506 IB-4 MR. ROUSSEAU: Reing inaccurate in his definition of dates, that as soon as the ·proposal letter was put in one hand, the gentleman had the proposal ready to pass back in the other hand.

That is the i nference he was attempting to draw last week. ! do not accept the fact · that because one propo ·s•al was in on October 7 that t he person was ready, that it was all made up, you know, that is bologna. 1 can stand here and say to the honou rable member and to all honourable members and to the people of this l'rovince that if I , Joe Rousseau, thought t here was a deal , then I would res•ign from this govern ment. 1 would say that. Sure 1 would because there was no deal. There was no deal. Now, there is a difference of opinion because we called four proposals . Why did we not call twenty-four? Okay.

That was a government decision. They certainly were not all supporters of government that the proposals were call ed from by any stretch of the imagina tion. 4425

April 16, 1975 Tape No. 1507 NM - 1 tine was the four names,and the honourable members of the House know the four names, it was Andrew Crosbie, W. J. J,undrigans, Seabord, Mr. Brown 1 and Mr. Dobbin. Four people, there was no political attachment of this Party to the four individuals, and righfully so, there should not be, but four successful Newfoundlanders who had made a good business for themselves in the Province and who, I feel,are above reproach. I do not know the gentlemen that well but I assume that they are above reproach. I assume all honourable members accept that. There is no deal.

There could not be a deal,because I will tell you why, you know many times people talk about deals in government and all this, but you know what the honourable member is inferring,and I say this not accusing the honourable member, Mr.

Speaker, so you just might be able to finish what I am going to say, that the officials of the Department of Public Works worked on these proposals, and what the honourable member is inferring, and I do not think deliberately cecause I do not think probably the honourable member is fully cognizant of what he is saying, is that there was complicity right down the line from government to the minister, to the Department of Public Works. Now that is what he is suggesting and I do not say he is doinF it deliberately, Mr.

Speaker, but that is what the suggestion is because these proposals were looked at by the officials in the Department of Public Works and the honourable the Leader of the Opposition and the honourable members who spoke had the notations on the side of what they call the green paper. the officials saw this, officials I think who are honourable men. Surely to God there is not one man in this House who would even question the integrity of Jack Ralph, the Deputy Minister of Public Works, a civil servant of twenty-five odd years, one of the most honest upright men in the Civil Service. Ai.'I HON. ME~IBER: Inaudible.

MR. ROUSSEAU: No , I spent a year and a half with Jack Ralph, you .do not even tell Jack Ralph 1you know. But Jack will come to you,and Jack Ralph is an honest Deputy Minister who will come and say, Sir you should not do this. He does not tell you what you want to hear. He tells you 4426

April 16, 1975 Tape No. 1507 NM - 2 what you have to hear. AN HON. MEMBER: What about the four deputy ministers who retired. MR. ROUSSEAU: I do not follow the - MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order, please! Two points, the honourable member is not permitted to interrupt an -honourable membe_r who has the floor and secondly of course the honourable member must be, if at all, from his own place. He has violated both of these rules. MR.

ROUSSEAU: What I am suggesting,and again I will say to the honourable Member for Hermitage~with all honesty, that I do not think that he fully recognizes what the implication of the term •shady deal" is. You know1when people in a department are involved in the analysis of a proposal, you know they are not down there implying sh_ady deals. Mr. Speaker, it is unbelievable.

Especially the individuals, and I do not want to name them all, but I know the gentleman, I served with him a year and a half prior to this, who would have been involved in this had this be.en a shady deal and they are not gentlemen who would he fnvolved in that. I would say that the honourable the Member for Bell Island, would know that since he served in the government and would not question the honour or integrity of these officials I am sure, no question about it1 but I do not think that the honourable Member for Hermitage and the honourable Member for St.

Barbe North and the honourable the Leader of the Opposition fully recognized what they were sayinr,. Now,had not the members of the department been involved, okay I could not refute the argument as I am refuting it now,but they were involved and the very fact that their notations are on the side of the paper show that they were involved.

And I do not think, I think that the honourable member would like at some time when he is speaking •in the House of Assembly to stand up and apologize if that sugp,estion came across,and I am sure he did not mean that and I am sure that was not the intent of what he was saying,but it certainly has the effect of that and I do not think he would want to say that to stay on the record. 4427

April 16, 1975 Tape No. 1507 NM - 3 So, there were three proposals. MR. ~. I"'IMONS: I would like to rise on this because the minister has beer- I tried to resist but I was not able to - because the minister has been persuing what I think is a fairly dangerous course of action in the past few minutes, Mr. Speaker. He is putting all kinds of words in my mouth that are not there. My point of order, Mr. Speaker, is that if the minister is going to quote me at least he can do so correctly.

And you know the ifs and ands that he is getting on with that if the member meant this that he should do this and that kind of thin~, look I am fairly capable of speaking for myself or I will live with the incapability and I do not particularly like the tactic particularly when it leads to the result of giving the impression that somehow I imputed the motives of persons working in his department, ;;r.

Speaker, left me for the records say that I have no dispute with the way the members in the Department of Public Works performed their job, it is my understanding from a lot of evidences that they do it extremely well and I would like the minister - MR. SP•'.A KER (STAGG); Order, please! Order, please! The honourable member is not permitted to make a speech on a point of order. This is he is now in the realm of trying to,and debating a point being made by the, or attemptine to debate a point being made by the honourable minister. His point of order basically is not one.

Itis a matter of opinion between two honourable members and his remarks would more suitanly be made when he concludes the debate. MR . ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry. I did not say that the honourable member deliberately said that. You know I have to read that,or either I have to assume that the honourable member is too stupid to know what he was saying. It was either one or the other. But anyway I will give him the benefit of the doubt and I will drop the matter there 1because I know the honourable member is not stupid.

He is, you know he was an "dministrator and he has a Master's Degree and he must be able and capable and know the difference between the use of the words, but 4428

April 16, 1975 Tape No. 1507 NM - 4 I was implying, I was using the term, Mr. Speaker, that he used last week, that the honourable member used of shady deal and I was trying conclusions from that and I do not think that the intent was there for the honourable member anyway. But quite apart from that I will go ahead with this, Mr. Speaker. So the proposals came in and the department, officials of the department looked over the proposals. Now, Mr. Speaker, there is a very fine difference possibly in the minds of some peop~e between a proposal and a tender.

A proposal is not a concrete plan as you would have with specifications and so on that you would call in an actual tender call. Because a proposal looks good does not mean that you can further discuss with the parties a better situation that was suggested in the proposals. And discussions went on, Mr. Speaker. Nobody suggests that discussions did no-t go on in our attempts to secure the best possible deal for the Province. And this leads me by the way, Mr.

Speaker, and I will just spend a few words on this, last week the Leader of the Opposition gave , some fi8ures and he came up with c~rtain figures, different types of figures that I have here somewhere, the true price, the net return and so on and so forth that I asked officials of the department to try and determine just where the honourable the Leader of the Opposition came up with the figures. How did he arrive at these figures? And the officials of the department could not determine where he arrived at those figures. It was impossibe for them to do that. But anyone is aware of the fact, Mr.

Speaker, that you can take a set of dates and by implication and innuendo sufgest that something is wrong, Using a set of figures you can do the same thing. As a very wise gentleman once said, Mr. Disraeli, there are lies, damn lies and statistics. And you can use statistics, Mr. Speaker. I could use by logic and argument,certain arguments to even make the Leader of the Opposition look like he was. a defective Leader of the Opposition. I could even do that. And that is stretchi,1µ the point but you can do it by argument. You can convince some people of that.

But you can do anything by a process of argument if you want to use 4429

April Hi, 1975 Tape No. 1507 NM - 5 on~ sjde of an ar~ument~or you want to use one set of figures, or you want to make up your basis of what figures you are goine to use 1or you want to add up things that you intend to add up that are not accepted accounting procedure and the officials of the Department of Public Works and Services could not determine "7here the honourable the Leader of the Opposition came up with the sets of fipures he came up with la,;,t week. AN HO"l. MEl-1BER: Inaudible. MR. ROUSSEAU: I cannot even figure where he got them. Now one second - ~ood - Mr.

Speaker, it is U? to me to do that and if honourable members across the House were prepared to do that they would have p.iven me unlimited time to do so. Right. But they will not give me unlimited time because they do not want to hear the whole facts and 1 have pot to rush through things in forty minutes and I have not got time to read figures in forty minutes. But there are a few points I have made. Good, but anyway - MF. NEARY: Inaudible. ~'P.

ROUSSEAU: I am suggesting to the honourable House that I have a,;kecl the offj cials of the department to try and determine where those fipures were arrived at and officials of the department could not tell me where the figures were arrived at. 4430

April 16, 1975 Tape 1508 (Afternoon) PK - 1 You know, it was up to what? $12.00 or some, I do not,know, some weird twelve-odd dollars in a lease now. MR. NEAllY: How much time does the minister have left? MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): Fifteen minutes. MR. NEARY: Fifteen minutes. MR. ROUSSEAU: Fifteen minutes. Well now, so anyway, Mr. Speaker, there were a few other moot points that were discussed and I would like to point out. First of all the honourable Leader - MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): Order, please: I believe some honourable members are questioning my arith111t:tic.

The point at which the honourable minister began to speak is calculated from the time the Speaker retired to determine his point of order. Because up to that point the honourable minister had not commenced his debate, so I commencedthe clock at five minutes after four. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER (STAGG~: The clock as it related to the honourable minister. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

SPEAKER (STAGG): Order, please: The Chair has ruled that the point of order as to whether or not the honourable minister would have unlimited time is a matter separate and apart from the honourable minister's speaking, and he commenced his speech at approximately five minutes after four, it may have been a minute one way or the other, and consequently it is from there that his forty minutes commenced. MR. ROUSSEAU: AN HON. MEMBER: Do you have a point of order? No. MR. ROUSSEAU: I must be getting to the honourable members I guess. Mr.

Speaker, there are a few other things that I would like to say,by the way, and,you know, the highlights - that is about all of the time I have. But anyway,last week the Hon. the Leader of the Opposition accused the government of not providing all the documents. And what the Hon. Leader of the Opposition wanted was a minute-in-council authorizing the negotiations, not the deal, not the agreement, the negotiations. Ile wanted the minute-in-council rescinding that previous minute-in-council and he wanted a copy of all of the ,notes that went on in negotiations. Now 4431

April 16, 1975 Tape 1508 (Afternoon) PK - 2 I do not know whether or not there were notes. What the Hon. the Leader of the Opposition saw was a lease and on the assumption that a lease was arrived at as a result of a letter of October 7 there were negotiations going on. I do not know if there are notes or what there are. But it is immaterial whatever was arrived at is by agreement bJtween both parties was entered into the lease. And the minute-in-council, no.

But I will say here, I will stand up and say it, and I will use my credibility for it, and hope that the honourable members across the House will believe it, and if they do not - There was a minute-of-council which rescinded any minute-in­ council authorizing negotiations with Mr. Dobbin in respect to the lease. Okay? I am saying that. Now if you do not believe me,_ if the honourable member - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROUSSEAU: No. Oh. I did not hear what you said. MR. SIMMONS : I am trying to get clarification.

Did I hear the minister say that there has been a minutes to rescind, which rescinded the earlier decision? MR. ROUSSEAU: Yes. MR. SIMMONS: What was the deal? . MR. ROUSSEAU: I said the original decision enabled the Minister of Public Works before the - no, that was before the letter was written of September 30 to attempt to secure space, not with any individual. And that minute was rescinded and we went on public tender. MR. SIMMONS: When was that? MR.

ROUSSEAU: The Hon. the Leader of the Opposition last week asked for the minute-in-council authorizing the negotiations, and for the minute­ in-council rescinding any situation that occurred. Now, you know, there is a great deal of, a difference between words here. The honourable Member for Hermitage suggested that no agreement had been signed, the Premier had said. And was there a deal? But there was a deal. Look, Mr. Speaker, as far as I am personally concerned if the Minister of Public Works name is not on that lease then there is no deal, no agreement or whatever you want to call it.

You know, there are many times that I may go down to the bank to borrow some money and negotiate with it, and never, 4432

April 16, 1975 Tape 1508 (Afternoon) PK - 3 never decide to actually to take them up on it. Does that mean that there is a deal or an agreement? Not unless I sign something and accept the money, MR. SIMMONS: Then there is an agreement. The minister signed something. Check lhi:. letter. MR. ROl'SSEAU: But the minister signed no agreement or no lease and until that lease is signed or until that agreement is signed there is no legal document to suggest that a deal have been made, or an agreement have been reached. MR. SIMMONS: So the minister is saying that the Minister of Public Works ran a bluff with Nr. Dobbin?

MR. ROUSSEAU: MR. SIMMONS: No, I am not saying that. Inaudible. MR. ROUSSEAU: I said the deal. MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): Order, please! So that proceedings do not take on the appearance of a discussion in somebody's living room I have to interrupt two honourable members who are engaging in such a discussion. And I remind the honourable member to my right that there is a time set aside for reply to arguments made by boch honourable members to my left and right, and that time is reserved for him at the end when he closes the debate. MR.

ROUSSEAU: I would like to congratulate the honourable member for drawing me away from my main thesis, a very smart move. But anyway I have only a few minutes left so I would like to continue my speech here. But as far as the government are concerned, Mr. Speaker, there was no agreement signed, no deal concluded,that the matter has now been put to public tender, that there are public proposals being requested, that in the meantime that the officials of the Department of Public Works and · Services are looking at the possibility of government itself providing the facilities. And when these proposals come in, Mr.

Speaker, they will be compared, those that are called for publicly and that report which emanates from the officials of the Department of Public Works and Services in respect to the possible construction of our own building, and we will then determine which is the best way to go. Now, Mr. Speaker, all I can say is that there was no deal. There was certainly no shady deal. And I am only using the words, Hr. Speaker, that the honourable Member for Hermitage used last week, there 4433

April 16, 1975 Tape 1508 (Afternoon) PK - 4 was no shady deal. That government, the officials, and the departmental officials were involved in it, you know, the web is too big. You know, everybody involved, the irnplication,everybody involved is participating in the shady deal, and I keep using that word because that was the word used by the honourable member last week - is, you know, incomprehensible. ~,ow as far as the government are concerned that they did, they did indeed discuss with l1r. Dobbin the possibility of providing space. You know1 riobody is saying that that did not occur.

Nobody is saying that a final ap,reement was not put forward as being something to be signed in order to then have a legal and finalized document to indicate that there was indeed a commitment from the government to acquire space by lease or by whatever way from - nobody is saying that. But what the government are sayin!!, that it has now decided to go by public tender. We, government, are saying that there was no deal, there was no agreement. Now that is merely a matter of opinion I presume between the members across and over on this side of the House, but that is the situation. Mr.

Speaker, I can say quite, quite, quite honestly that whatever suggestions were made by the three honourable members, and I can not - you know the words that were used last week, and I can .not use,. them this week, but anyway the suggestions that were made, you know, is pure unadulterated politics. That is all it is, Mr. Speaker. That is all it is. The implication is drawn because a letter went out on September 30. Mr. Speaker, if I may suggest to the honourable members of the House that the letter that went out on September 30 I presume, Mr. Speaker, I have forty-five minutes only,is it? MR.

SPEAKER: If the honourable member would permit the Chair: I am reasonably confident about that particular ruling but I will look at a counle of points to be sure. There bas already been a precedent r;et. I think the Hon. Member for Hermitage was permitted forty-five minutes some time back on a private members' motion. The Chair does not consider this to be a motion of non confidence and thus the honourable member, except by leave, of course, only has forty- five minutes. 4434

April 16, 1975 Tape 1508 (Afternoon) PK - 5 MR. ROUSSEAU: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I accept Your ruling. The suggestion of the September 30 letter - I would like to get into all of these points, Mr. Speaker, because we can reply to all these points. The suggestion that the September 30 letter 1 the Hon. Member for Hermitage in leading off suggested that it was a sloppy letter. A sloppy letter. 4435

April 16, 1975. Tape 1509 RH - 1 Hr . Speaker, do you know, Sir, who mac-1e up the letter? I did not do t he letter. Officials of the department did the letter. I asked them, I said,how would we ask to make it the fairest sort of deal, people who are involved in this sort of thing. No, there was no sugr,estion that there was - A's HONOURABLE MEMBER: ,m . ROUSSEAU: Why? Inaudible. ~fR. SPEAKER: ·- ---- - -- Order, please! Order, please! AN HONOURABLE !!E?-ffiER: Inaudible. !-'R.. ROUSSEAU: No, one second now.

The letter was put forward and looked at by officials of the department and they were asked whether or not this would be as good a set of specifications as we could ask for under the conditions,and they agreed. It went out to the people in the department who were responsible for this sort of thing and the letter was made up. To call it a sloppy letter, well that is a matter of opinion. I do not think that the officials who assisted in composing this letter did a sloppy job. The suggestion that , the inference, Hr.

Speaker, I have it here, look the inference that it did not matter whether the letter was accurate or not because a deal had been made. That is all we talked about. The deal had been made. Hy God Almighty! Anyway, r~r. Speaker, the letter was not a sloppy one. I thought it conveyed what we needed and one of the proposers phoned me personally a few days after the letter was written and asked for clarification. I gave the clarification over the telephone to the honourable gentleman. That is possibly why the letter was three or four days after the first one .

But the red herrings, the - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROUSSEAU: No, who? --------- A:'·l !IONOURABLC MEMBER: Table the document. As a matter of principle, I hate to table them. Really, I would like to be able to go over them. I am not given the time, but 4436

April 16, 1975. Tape 1509 RH - 2 I am prepared to table them. Yes, Mr. Speaker, when I am ready. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Your time is up. MR. ROUSSEAU: My time is not up, is it? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: - Select Committee, MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications has three minutes left. MR. ROUSSEAU: Well, Mr. Speaker, in three minutes all I can do is say what I say again, that the inference is drawn as a result of the dates of September 30, October 7 and October 11 we are just that.

The fact that the original proposal that was deemed to be the best, there was an attempt to secut~ an even better, an even better situation than had been proposed, which is normal and the honourable Member from Bell Island who was in govenunent, if there was a proposal, went out · and tried to get a better proposal than the original proposal I am sure on many occasions. MR. NEARY: I am not arguing with you. MR. ROUSSEAU: I know you are not arguing with me. It is impossible to argue that. The honourable members have not been in government. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROUSSEAU: Why?

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROUSSEAU: Yes, but anyway, in the meantime, it is not. Theae are inferences. The figures that were quoted by the honourable the Leader of the Opposition last week were not figures that were compre­ hensible to the officials of the department, where they came from, what the final figures were. So, all in all, Mr. Speaker, I can only suggest that government has nothing to be ashamed of in respect to this situation. Public proposals have now been called.

Public proposals will be reviewed by the officials of the department and that in conjunction with their own studies in respect to providing our own building to be compared, and that the government will decide on which is the bes ·t avenue to . go. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time has expired except by leave. ,.

Aprfl Hi, 1975. Tape 1509 RH - 3 I do not know if the honourable ~inister of Transportation and C0111111unications is renuest1nr, leave or not. If he is the Chair will put the question. "'oes t11e honourable member have leave to continue, if he so desires? Inaudible. Hi\ • SPRAY.ER: ------ I gather then that there is not unanimity and I recognize the honourable ?!ember for St. John's East. ~11'.. }!ARSHALL: - - ----- Mr. Speaker, I have a number of things quite obviously to say about this resolution.

First of all, having heard the honourable the Minister of Transportation and Communications in his capacity of acting l~inister of Public Works finish his speech, I must compliment him on, well,compliment is not the word, but compliment him on his franJrness in co111111unicat:l.ng the fact that there was no deal,and deal has been used in the sort of the crass sense, I will come to that later, but not denying the fact, of course, that there had been an agreement to ~nter into an agreement.

Before I get to the main brunt of my remarks with respect to this re.solution which the Opposition has lead in for the purpose of having an enquiry into the leasing practices of this government with particular reference to the proposed,now aborted,Dobbin transaction, I would like to address myself to a few of the remarks that have been made by the gentlemen on the other side in support of their request for the enquiry.

In the first place, two Wednesdays ago, we had a situation where the honourable Member for Hermitage, the leader of,the person introducing the resolution, \'hen he was first touching off the debate made certain co111111ents with respect to the relationship of Mr. Craig Dobbin,who was the person involved in the lease and the government which did not appear to 1:e to me anyuay that favourable. Subsequently, even the following week we were• treated to two speeches , one fror.i the honourable the Member for St. P.arbe North and one from the honourable member, the Leader of the 0pposition. In that speech, Mr.

Speaker, in both speeches, instead of attempting to put the position before us to why there should be an enquiry, they seem to my untuned ear anyway, to be spending most of their time 4438

April 16, 1975. Tape 1509 Rll - 4 lionizing, inunortalizing and practically canonizing Mr. Dobbin. Now, it is not my function to attempt to tear down Mr. Dobbin or any man, but neither do I put any of Mr. Dobbin or any of the contractors on a pedestal. Their are ordinary human beings. They are not saints. They do not walk on water. They are subject to the normal vicissitudes of life, I would assume, but when you heard the honourable gentlemen opposite the other day, all they appeared to be doing, the honourable Leader of the Opposition, the honourable Member for St.

Barbe North, was to give a great eulogy with respect to Mr. Dobbin himselfwhich in my view is totally irrelevant but now becomes somewhat irrelevant because I am motivated to ask the question,and perhaps the honourable gentlemen who have already spoken, perhaps the members of the press might like to take up with the Leader of the Opposition, the honourable Member for St. Barbe North as to why they choose to take this tack. I mean~did they get any message? Was there any request from anyone for them to speak along these lines for any reasons? The reinarks as far as I am concerned, ?lr.

Speaker, and I say this, their remarks - MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, could the minister elaborate on that? I do not - MR. MARSHALL: I am just talking about the changed 11ttitude in the Opposition from one week to the other. From the one case it was a case of attacking or semi-attacking what could be construed, although I do not think it was an attack, but it could have been construed as an attack, not only upon the government because the government . and Mr. Dobhin were not separated at the time by the honourable !{ember for llermitage,but they were later. MR. NEARY: ~r. Dobbin is the completely innocent victim. HR.

MARSHALL: I agree Mr. Dobbin is the completely,the innocent victim. I agre ·e wholeheartedly. There is no attempt to drag down Mr. Dobbin but what I am saying I am not going to canonize the man either. He is an ordinary individual like myself and the honourable Nember for Bell Island. 4439

1'nr il lf, , 1<''75 . Tape 1509 RH - 5 l!e is a busine s sman . HR • ~t/lRSl!ALL: ------- Exactly. lie is a businessman operating within the f ramework, the economic framework that was set up by the previous a dministration in which all businessmen had to operate in this Province -, nnd therein li es it. '.low, Hr. Speaker, I have no doubt that the honourable members opposite, the !' ember for St. Barbe North and the honourable Member for lle nnitap• ,were very ~ood teachers, but they make very, very poor prosecutors.

They want an enquiry into something, they want an enquiry really into -something which has never really happened,because the fact of the matter is, }!r, Speaker, the proposal or the intention has been stopped. Government has abandoned any intention that it may have lw.d before with repsect to entry into this lease, so, they want an enquiry 1 they want an enquiry into something miich really now has not occurred.

I think the time of this House and the time of this Assembly can be better served in other ways rather than, there are plenty of things to have enquiries into, tfr, Speaker, they are plenty of enquiries that have yet to come to fruition,but I do not think we neecl to extend the enquiries into events which never happened. A properp}ace for an enquiry is not through a COll!mittee, not through a royal commission or anythin g like that, but it is totally and entirely on the floor of this legislature through the medium of the procedures of this House, the question period and what have you. Now, this is a 4440

April 16, 1975 Tape 1510 rather difficult debate as I am sure members might, some memhers might be able to appreciate, some people may not, a rather difficult one for me to participate in because I find myself in the situation now, as I have said before, of sitting very comfortably at the right hand side of the honourable Member for Burgeo-La Poile and very comfortably 'at the left hand of the honourable the Member for Port de Grave. MR. EVANS: MR. MARSHALL: MR. NEARY: MR. MARSHALL: Never had such good company in your life - Never. I have learned a lot. A thorn between two roses.

I have learned a lot in the few weeks I have been here. But, I want to state that, you know, for this reason it is a difficult debate. I would not want any words that I say with respect Tll-1 to not supporting an enquiry at any time to be construed by any person living or dead, stunned or half-stunned or any other way as a mea culpa on my part because with respect of those events to which I had referred, Mr. Speaker, I suppose there are very few things that occur that people look back on and say if they had it to do all over again, they would change certain things. That is human nature.

But, I have to say very firmly and very directly that of everything that I have done in the past three months in relation to, certainly in relation to my relationship with government and as an elected person, if I had them to do all over again, if I had to say everything I said all over again, I would do anrl I would say everything exactly as was done. So, I want to make that quite, quite clear. The fact of the matter is that there was an agreement to enter into a particular arrangement with a certain individual 1which I found just as - I found it unsupportable and unacceptable.

Now, I would like my former colleagues in cahinet to realize - I think it is not necessary, I suppose, to be repeated, hut perhaps we should talk about jt very, very generally just in case there is somebody who may not fully realize the import. When you are in cabinet, there is a principle of collective responsibility. Cabinet is really a very fictitious body,as it were, it exists almost as a superhuman or some people might look at it really ~s 4441

April Hi, 1975 Tape 1510 IB-2 a suhhuman being, hut it certainly is different from the individuals who make it up. The persons themselves while they are members of the cabinet have no opportunity whatsoever to voice their disspnt with respect to important matters that they find correct unless they - if they find it uosupportahle and unacceptable - unless they remove themselves from that cabinet and speak as individuals. That is exactly what had heen done hecause ther~ was a cabinet decision in this particular instance - I think it is general knowledge.

I am delighted to hear from the Minister of Transportation and Communications today that a cabinet minute was passed rescinding that decision. It was passed after my absence from the scene. P.ut, certainly there had been a decision made and there is no point in attempting 1 and I will not be put off by anybody,from asserting that there was a cahinet decision to enter into an agreement of this nature. Now, the agreement was never signed, but, let us put it this way. There had heen an agreement to enter into an agreement.

There had heen an authorization, and there are those, including myself who might say that a positive Order in Council of that nature is not just an authorization hut indeed a directive to the person to whom it is addressed 1 he heing a member of the cabinet. So, this, as I say, Mr. Speaker, I would want, when I say that I do not feel there is any necessity for an enquiry into something that has not happened,hecause what was going to happen is not now going to happen. It is really a waste of time.

The proposal has not been executed. flut I would not wish my stand on this to be in any way hy any person or any group of people interpreted to be a mea culpa on my part with respect to actions that, as far as I was concerned, I had to take. Now, I do not propose to get into these actions and the long events that occurred with respect to this. I do not think it serves any purpose. They have all been certainly publicly aired. The fact of the matter is when I became aware of this transaction and all its facets, when T was a~rare of its possible conception, I informed that I would leave 4442

April 16, 1975 Tape 1510 lB-3 if it was hatched. When I saw that it was likely going to be hatched, I so left. I do not propose to debate the ins and outs, the ups and downs of it.

I do not think it serves any particular purpose except I shall say, because the rules of this House require that one can only speak once in a debate of this nature, if other people choose to debate that particular fact~aa it were,which is a fact that has been accepted, I think, I am pretty sure,by the great and vast majority of the populace who have shown any interest in it, then there will come other times when I shall he forced to debate it,because really it is not relevant . The fact of the matter is I am not now a member of the cabinet because of the fact that I did not agree with this particular action.

I can certainly fully support a government which realizing the feelings of a person then takes the countervailing action which it has. Neither to I propose, Mr. Speaker, to get into a long analysis AN HONOURABLE MEYBER: Would the member penn1t a question? MR. "MARSHALL: I do not propose to get into a long analysis with respect to the correspondence that has arisen. A short question, yes. I do not mind. MR. SIMMONS: Just a short question, Mr. Speaker, on what the member had to say. I thank him for yielding. Just a quick question.

Is he satisfied;first of all,that the matter which he refers to, the nobbin situation - you had a better word than deal just now, Dobbin transaction - that the Dobbin transaction, the proposed transaction, not only has it been ahorted,as I quite agree with the member, but is he satisfied that he is aware of all the circumstances which led up to the abortion, if you like. Secondly, would he address himself to the resolution,which I submit to him 1s larger than the so-called Dobbin transaction, that it relates to other decisions by government to acquire rental accommodation. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, yes.I atr aware, as far as I know, as far as a human being is aware of where his knowledg~ extends I am satisfied I am aware of all the circumstances, and I will certainly he addressing myself to the other items as we go on. 4443

Ar>ril lf>, 1'175 Tape 1510 IB-4 As I said,now T do not like the word, and I say I do not like the word, 1 can see when a government is under attack, it would take this particular view. The honourable M1nister of Transportation and r.omrnunications refers to no''deal 11 had heen made, as I imputed his remarlrs that he macle, and I would thoroughly agree with him,"deal" used in the sense that it has been flung across the House by the opposite sine, "deal"is something that is shady or what have you.

Certainly, there is r>oho<ly - T do not think there is anybody who is entitled to or anybody really ••ho should, unless he is prepared to come out with letter, verse and complete and absolute facts, should lightly be able to get up and make any innuendo or any suggestion of that nature, that that has never heen made. All Twill say is that, you know, there was an agreement to enter into an agreement. T think when emotions get high and emotions run rift as they do from time to time, various things get interpreted 1n certain ways.

I do not think it is fair for anyone to insinuate that there is a deal because I think the word used by the minister, acting 1·'inister of Public Works the other day at the end of the debate after he had heard the ululations by the Leader of the Opposition and the Member for St. Barbe North were quite pointed when he turned to him and said, look, how can it he, you know, that }Ir. Dobbin or the third parties involved or all of the contractors involved, that they are completely clean and the government is completely dirty.

That observation is, I think, well taken because it has not been insinuated that contractors are or neither should it be considered that the government is. just the purpose of making, you know, normal political hay. It is 'low, I am delighted that this matter has been rescinded,as I s;sv, the l'lp,reemen t has been rescinded. I am delighted also that on the first opening day of this session that the government has come in with a definitive statement with respect to its policy on public tenders which I will come to in just a moment. Before 444tl

April 16, 1975 Tape 1511 (Afternoon) PK - l I do that I would like, and I think it is pertinent, to again re-empha:;;ize again and again the importance of this matter, and I think it is of vital importance , this llliltter of public tender~ why to me anyway it holds such a place of great importance in my view the way public conduct of business should be carried on, in the way that I feel that the government also concurs in enunciating its policy because I have been described alternately from time to time by various people, in various manners, but one of them has been that I am rigid, I am blinkered, I am stubborn, I am unyielding, there is absolutely no compromise with respect to this issue.

And with respect to all of these charges, Mr. Speaker, I would plead completely guilty because I do not feel that there can be any yielding or ' any compromising whatsoever in this Province or anywhere else, but particularly in this Proviuce in the unstinting intention of the government in bringing about and implementing a complete public tendering system.

I remember, I have always had this view, and I remember about one year ago that I had the advantage of a student writing his M.A. thesis in history up at Memorial 1 did me the compliment of asking me to go over his particular thesis that he was going to submit into the affairs of the government and the political defeat of Squires and his government in the eventual collapse of democracy.

And I have always felt that one of the major contributions to the fall 1of our loss of our self-government in this Province, and the possibility it could happen at any given time again, was the way in which government affairs were conducted by the various powers, the parties in power.

And I quote just briefly from this particular thesis, whose name I am not going to mention, because he is a private citizen 1 as it were, and it is not really relevant, but one of the conclusions as to why we got in trouble in those days were "Public funds were used for blatant political reasons, and there are numerous cases of political expediency being the foremost consideration in the approval of construction projects. The primary objective of politicans was to get re-elected at any cost. Now I can not remember those days. I have read about them 1as we all have.

And I have no doubt that this political history of this Province~while we have many things to commend ourselves with respect to our history, has been in many aspects along these lines, probably the most dismal 4445

April Hi, 1975 Tape 1511 (Afternoon) PK - 2 history in the Western Society right to the extend that in 1933 and 1934 there was a report by the then Lord Amurlee which resulted in our losing completely our self government. So that is why I must feel it must be - really quite frankly I look at - perhaps I should not say this because the Hon. the Member for Bell Island and the members opposite have been so quiet during my speech and I do not like to motivate them to periods of emotion because I am somewhat afraid of them, of course. AN HON. !EMllER : Inaudible. MR.

MARSHALL: But the fact of the matter is I sometimes view Commission of Government, real~y, as being a hiatus between the Squires and the Sm~llwood Administrations. Mr. Smallwood is a great admirer of Sir Richard Squires and spoke about him from time and time again. And I think really that they had the same view of government with respect to these matters that they did not put the same emphases with respect to the necessity, the dire necessity really of insisting,public people insisting that public tenders be used in all cases with respect to government contracts.

It is one,as I say,of the real reasons why we list our self-government. It is also the only way in which government can operate. If you are dealing in construction contracts or others, and you are a private concern,you can rely on the private concern as a matter of self interest to get the best deal he possibly can for himself through private contract. But not so necessarily with respect to government, hecause governments are not the people who are making the contracts, really it is not really their money, it is the public's money.

So the only way to assure that you get the fair price,to avoid an excess of patronage, and to assure that there is full participation in the economic life, and we do not get economic dictatorships growing up in this Province which we have from time to time in the past, as far as I am concerned is fully and completely to have unquestionable open public tenders at which the public can see how contracts are being awarded and which would prevent contracts being awarded other than on a completely fair and rational bases. And I make these statements without - A.~ !!ON . • IE IIER • Inaudible. ----- ·-- 4446

April 16, 1975 Tape 15ll (Afternoon) fK - 3 }fil . MARSHALL: - I make these statements without any innuendoes, or imputations to anyone. I am just stating them as a matter of fact, or my impression of the fact. I feel that perhaps, some people have said to me, have indicated from time to t:i.me that to take this particular vi.-:,w is to buck the system.

Well I would almost feel like using a few el<l)letives when I hear that, because you buck the system, I feel that this 1,1overnment were elected to buck the system, and it has done a very , very effective job in doing it, and this is certainly one of the ways in which it has done it through the institution~generally speaking,of a full public tendering system . I think I should recount 4441

April 1~, 1975 Tape No. 1512 NM - 1 this little fact that a matter that occurred over the Christmas season where I received information from a person, through a person w~•o was talkin11: with a person and it is pretty authentic was involved with another party, not this party but another party 1 with respect to the Matter that they are supporting the other party because they cannot wait to get in to get back to the tendering system. Now whether that is true or whether that is not true I do not know, or to x out the tendering system that this government has instituted.

The rovernment can be complimented on its policy with respect to public tendering 1but my position with respect to it has been, is now and always will be that there cannot be any deviation one iota from that particular principle or else we are going to endanger ,lapsing back into the area where we were before, a very unenviable era it was too. With respect to ;his. and perhaps it may be people use it and say,in order to cancel it out perhaps you have got to have public financing of elections, I do not necessarily subscribe to that view.

I think first of all you have got to have very tough regulations with respect to the control of election expenses first. Maybe the federal coffers can afford to pay largesses of money out for the purpose of financing political parties but I do not think that this particular Province in its financial state can ent