PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY ' I Volume 1 Number 61 5th Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, MAY 25, 1971 1 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

Tnpe 730(Afternoon) The House rnc>t Pt 3:0n P;,:H. r,,1r. Speaker in the Chair. NOTICE OF MOTION: HON. J .R._ SMALLWOOD{PRf:?>f1F,R)": Hr. Speaker~ T pi.ve notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a B:i.11 entitled, lJAn Act Resvectinp Collective 1\;,rgnininr "Between Certa5n Fishermen or Assode<.tions of Fishermen nnd Certain Persons or Association of Persons Fnp.age0 in the Processinn of Fish in the Province,'' nnd a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Trade t!nion Act, 1960. 11 On motion th.1t the Honse go into Committee of the Fhole rm Stmply, Mr. Srieaker left the Chair.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY: - ------ MR." CHAIRMA;>.J(NOEL): Headinr:; Vll - JUSTICE, par;e twentv-five. MR. CROSBIE: --·---·· -------.. ~- Just hefore we .vo dm,m throur,h the. ~Unistf'rts estimates, Mr. ChctirM<m, T wonder could he give us some information on the Oml->ndsrnan Lerislation th;,t was pnssed last year. There has been no announcement yet as to when this Act is bednc: nroclnimed or as to whomthe Governrrent proposes to apnoint as the OmbudsMan .for the Province. \.ould the Minister give us sor1e information on that? Mr.

Chnir~an, I aM not ready to make any statement on that hut as soon as we are ready I will make a statement on it. ~-~-~Pf)~S!.I~~ Before the item carries, Mr.

Chair~an, could the Minister tell us whether there has been any Legislation contemolated with respect to the question of setting up an Appeal Board for appeals, an independent anneal board to which people can appeal who hnve aoplicati0ns before the Government for licensing- ot peunitsJwho are turned dotm.- FnT examnle 1 the Newfoundland Liquor Commission,as it is well known, applications for permits or revoking of licenses and so on are all.done at their discretion,and there is no provision for any Appeal Board Minister contemplating any such Legislation? Is the 4422 Pf 1

"av 25th, l 971 Tape 730(Afternoon) MR, CR0SBT1': ------- I notice that in Ontario there is n report hy the former Chief Justice MacLure ,in connection with administrative h,~., anri civil riphts it in the Province of Ontario 1 where~recol"l!l;ends a series of principles that should anply in the field of Administrative Law. For exarmle, a person whose rights are being affected b_v a tribunal should have an opportunity to be he~rd by that tribunal. That is something that is badly needed here in the case of annlicationr for: liquor licenses and others.

There is no reouire~ent now that the person whose rights are bPinf affected has to be heard by the tribunal. Chief .Tustice MacLure recommended that,where a tribunal had made a decision affectinf! a person 1 s rifhts that person should have the right to written reasons, i.f requested. This is not now the law in this Province, Mr. Chainnan. In any situation where a person has to receive a license or there has to be some decision made hy Government Tribunal there is no requirenent in our law that the person whose application is turned down be piven a written reason,nnd that is a reform that is badly needed.

The Chief Justice nlso recommended that if a Tribunal has given a judicial decision,distinct from an administrative or policy decision, the person whose rights are affected should have the riQht to have the decision reviewed hy some body 1 and he recommen(1ed a divisional court or to another body, it might be an administrative court.so that there would be nn opportunity to be heard and to present a cAse. Is the Minister familiar with this Mr. MacLure Report and has there been any consideration given to some of these chanr-es in the law 'being implemented in this Province? MR. CURTIS: With this type of ~eport, Mr.

Chairman, we usually wait until the Government to whom the report was directed makes a decision and brings in Lepislation. I am not aware that any Lef!islntion has been broup-ht in -pursuant to the recommendation of Mr. MacLure. But 4423

Mav 25th. 1071 T2pe 730(Afternoon) MR. ClffiTI S : when Legislation has been brour;ht in,it will mean that the renort hns not only bee.n n.dopterl with after thoup_hts;then we rrri5:'ht well look into the si tttation here. On mot1nn, 701(01), (02) (01), (02), (03): 711(01), (02) (01), (02). (03), (09) (01). (02), (03), (04), (05); carried, ~1R.-CROSRI'E: Mr. f'hai.rman, on 712(01), there are recent reports, I do not lcn0tJ" if there is any accuracy to them or not. that there is a possibility of further appointments to the Supreme Court or to the District Courts of the -Province.

Could the Minister tel] us is there nny contemnlation th~t the size of the Supreme Court in 1'-!cwfoun111and is roin~ to be increased or is there any consideration beinP" rdven to aopointing di.strict court iudJ7es? For example~ the district of Trinity-Conception now does not have a judf!e. T.t is looked after bv Judge Whalen, I helieve. there is Trinity-Conceµtion. Rurin-Rurgeo, Humber-St. Geor!?es has a iudp.:e~ Grand Falls, White Bay-Labrador has a iudpe~ St. John's West and St. John 1 s East. So there arc three districts without them - Burin-Rurgeo, 'I'rini ty-Conception and Gander-TwillinP;ate.

So coul<l the 'Minister tell us whether there has heen any discussions held with Ottawa as to whether there are to be appointments to any one of those district courts or any new· Supreme Court judges? '1R. CURTIS: Mr. Chairman, when we ask Ottawa, Ottawa will prepare the way for us to make these appointments, but I have no present intention of increasing the number of judges. MR. MARSHALL: Before it passes, Mr. Chairman, on this Supreme Court Salaries,I notice that there is a reduction in the salaries for the administration of the Supreme Court itself ..

This is unusual to see a reduction in salaries with the staff going up in other areas of the Governwent activity. I feel that certainly the Supreme Court could use more staff and I wonder what is the exµlanation for the 4424

May 25th, 1971 Tape 730(Afternoon) HR. MARSHALL: cutback in salaries? I understnndJfor instance,tbat there is a conternnlated increase in the Qu(lta, an increase in die a,Jthorized posts, although it mav not he anticioated to appoint an assistant registar. I believe is what is conteMplated, vet the vote here for the salaries to carrv out these duties is less. in fom the reason why? I wonder if the Minister could MR. ,CJ!.~1~_: }fr. C:hnirman, the reduction there is a very small one hut I understood the vote had been favoured last year.

On motion, 712(01), (02)(01), (02), (03); 713(01), (02)(01). (02) carried. l-11\. CROSBIE: In connection with the Magistrates, Mr. Chairman, I wonder could the Minister tell us what the situation now is with respect to the takin~ of evidence in the Mar,istrates Courts in the Province? Is recording equipment now in use by the all the ma~istrates who are presently sjtting in the Province,so that the evidence is all recorded an<l can be transcribed in the event of an appeal? Could the Minister _iust brin~ us up todate on this situation? Seven of our courts 1 Mr.

Chairman. have been equipped with recordin? instruments. I might say that some of them are used but I cannot say that all of them have been used. I think we are grad11ally getting the Hap:istrates used to using them and we arc ready to install additional e~uipment. There was a provision made this year so that we can install additional equipment as soon as we see the Magistrates are making use of them.

It takes a while for a man;who has never had this recording equipment,to or~anize its use, For that reason I do not think we have gotten full benefit out of the installations we have installed,as yet,but we are keepinR a close eye on it and just as soon as we can get the'Magistrates used to usin,z them we will supply them. 4425 JM - 4

May 25th, 1971 Tape 730(Afternoon) J)'l - 5 On motion, 714(01), (02)(01), (02), (03), (05), (06)· carried. MF. C~OSBJj:_, Sir, 715(01) is the penitentiary, Mr. Chairman. In connection with the penitenti~ry, are there any present nlans for the construction of any new facilities to the nenitentiary or the construction of a new penitentiary or any recreation or other facilities do'WTI there at the penitentiary? MR. CURTIS: T am verv much worried, Mr. Chairman, about the oenitentiary anrl I have never been proud of it and I have been lookin~ into the matter of cost.

I remember there was some reference on "ooen-line''the other day,to the effect that some of the cells <lid not hnve water and sewerage.We installed that in two cells and it cost us $3~000. per cell. That was when my hon. friend was in the Depnrtnent. The latest price we r,et is $4o,ono. just to install water and sewerage in these cells; and I do not think that even tha.t will be satlsfactory.

To rebuild the interior of the olcf penitenti.ary would cost us $400 1 000. and that is a larre aMount and it is e thinr, that I think we will have to do. ! have been hopi.nr that we could ~et the Federal Department of Justice to put a new oenitentiary in Newfoundland and then we could house our inmates and pay thet!!. so much per diem for their keep, That is the reason the penitentiary reached the low ebb that it has. Mind you, there are parts of the penitentiary that are thorou~hly modern. Thf':'.re are a number of cells that are ultra-modem, but the old

section of the penitentiary J;!;ives us a lot of worry. It would maybe cost us $400,000 to rebuild just the interior of the present penitentiary,.and my friend's department charged us $3,000 each to put in toilets in two cells, I do not know what the answer to the penitentiary is but I can assure the House the matter is being watched very carefully and I hope that the next minister who takes my place will be able to report that we shall have a penitentiary to be rroud of. I am not proud of the present one. The prison camp I am proud of. 4426

Hnv 25th, 1971 Tape 730(Afternoon) JH - F .MR. :r~~RSHALL: I would like to cmestion the Minister furt11er on that then. Here a2:ain we have an over-all reduction in the salaries n.nd :if the penitentiary is not in good shape - still we are talkinf' about warders of the penitentiarv itseJ~their salaries are less being paid than last year and also the fa.ct that in add:i.tion there will be n normal increase in the salary to these people down there¢ T presur1e. Here a rain I wonder why it is lower I J mean are less people emuloyed this year than last year?

MR. ~'Q.F.TT~: The Rnlaries of the wardens are presently under negotiation with the officials P.nd with the wardens and with the Government. !ffi.. F.ARLE: Mr. Chairman, on the question of penitentiaries, I wonder if the Minister could tell us what is p,oing on down there bv wav of traininr-, educational pro~rammes or vocational programmes 0r nnythinr of that nnture to try to really rehahilitate the prisOners'l Any changes in thnt, ;my profress? It seems thnt in all Provinces that is something we hear quite a lot about 1 all the time in trying to rehabilitate prisoners.

Is there any programne of any substantial dimension for this sort of thinr, in our prisons? Has there been anything been done or is it just a straight educational programme or what is it? I have not heard anything about it for a long time. MR. CURTIS: We have a pretty t?Ood educational programme dmm at the penitentiary, Mr. Chairman, and I understand some of the inmates have~improved their scholaNtic position very greatly while they are there. It is rather difficult to get prisoners to work. Some years ago we put in a plant there makinf cement blocks.

The minute you do that you are competinr: with outside industries and get into trouble. Years ago, you will remember, they made brooms. Then we gave up the broom factory and passed the business over to the CNIB. They have had to drop it. It is very difficult just to find what work to do. I am hopinr 4427

Hay 25th, 1971 Tape 730(Afternoon) JH ~ 7 HR. CURTIS: that the Government will see its way clear to do renovations to the buildinr,ibecnuse the prisoners can help doing that type of work, construction work. They can do that and it would keep them occupied and it would r.ican that the work will be done for a little less money. But it is difficult to train them down there. There has been a lot of talk of a ~lorified ~yr;nasiu.':l und I hnvc not been ahlc. to get the Government to agree that we should find the noney for it. They wanted $300,000. or something like that. It is quite difficult to know what to do.

My predecessor made it a practice of sending all Federal business to Dorchester and that did lessen the pressure of it somewhat. But really,unless we can get them at the Prison Camp,we cannot really ?-ive them much term and, of course, the desirable prisoners, the people who show promise,mostly go to the Prison Camp. •?here, of course. they do learn some trades and some work 1 hut at the penitentiary there are really no trades bein~ done. On motion, 715(01), (02) (01), (02), (03), (OI,), (03) (01), (02), (03), (04), (05), carried. MR. EARLE: On (06), Mr. Chairman, Farm Industry.

I presume that is the Prison Camp, is it? There seems to be a decrease in the vote this year from $42,000. to $29,000. Is that operation still going ahead or has it been phased out or diminished or what is happening there? MR. CURTIS: I think that only means, Mr. Chairman, that they are buying fewer cattle. They are stocked up with their own cattle. On motion, 715(03(06), (07) carried. ~m. CROSBIE: On (10), Mr. Chairman, this is for the dieting and attendance on prisoners in jails. The amount is reduced $10,000. this year as compared to last year. Could the Minister tell us why 4428

May 25th, 1971 Tape 730(Afternoon) MR. CROSBIE: that is? Is there an estimate that there are going to be less people incarcerated in jails this year thnn lo.st year or why would the food allowance be decreased by $10,000. from $60,000, to $50,000.? HR. CURTIS: Mr. Chairman, I have been told that that is enough. I suppose it is enough, I do not buy the food. MR. CROSBIE: The Minister says that he has been told that this amount is enough but surely he must have been given some reason why it is enough.

Last year the revised estimate is $60,000. and this year 1 which is a revised estimate, last year in the estimates - HR. CURTIS: But the fact that it was $60,000. in the revised estimates does not necessarily mean that we spent all that. JN - 8 MR. CROSBIE: Then what was spent then? What is the actual? Actually last year the Minister only ask for $36,800. in last year's estimates but the revised estimate shows $60,000. MR. CURTIS: I will try to get that information for the hon. member. }ffi.

CROSBIE: Could the Minister tell us how many prisoners are there now in the penitentiary and how many are there now in the jails in the country? Does the Minister have the statistics on that? MR. CURTIS: No but I can get them. MR. CROSBIE: Could you get that for us? MR. CURTIS: Of course. MR. CROSBIE: Is the Minister of Health getting ready to take over a new portfolio? MR. ROBERTS: No, the Minister of Health happened to be reading a report of the Department on penitentaries the other day and accordinvly he knows something about it. MR. CROSBIE: I see.

It is rumoured that the Minister is going to have a new portfolio. MR. ROBERTS: The Minister has hopes of holding on to his present one 4429

May 25th, 1971 Tape 730(Afternoon) ~TM - 9 MR. ROBERTS : for a day or so. As the hon. gentleman knows full well,it is a hazardous portfolio. MR. CROSBIE: Hcrtlth is, yes and Justice is also. HR. ROBERTS: Very high in mortality rates. MR. CROSBIE: Well nnyway the Minister could get us those firures, could he? We do not want to bother the :Minister or disturb him or excite him, if getting that information is going to trouble his tranquility we certainly will not press for it.

On ll'Otion, 715(03) (11), (12), (13): 716(03) (01), (02), (03) • (01,), (05) • carried. !'ffi:~ CROS~.!_EJ.._ (06) is Registration of Jurors and the anount the Minister is askinr, for this year is S2,500. and the amount that he ask for last year was $2,500. Now, Mr. Chairman, there is an amendment to the Judicature Act hcfore the House now Mnd .if that is passed, of course, there is r,oinr: to have to be quite a bit of money spent on the registration of jurors. HR. CURTIS: There will be about Wice as many jurors and it will probably cost twice that amount. HR.

CROSBIE: But could the Minister give us some information on what his plans are in that respect and on how he is going to operate because., certainly, $2,500. will not be enough, to add to the list now the names of the wor:u~n of Newfoundland? MR. CURTIS: There is an amendment before the House now 1 Mr. Chairman, ------- to the Judicature Act and until the .Judicature Act was passed we could not estimate the additional cost. We will not know until the Judicature Act passes just what the increase cost will be.

These estimates were prepnred lon~ before the Judicature Act was drafted and in that respect the estimates will probably be below what we need and we will have to p;et supplementary supply. 4430

Hay 25th, 1971 Tape 730(Afternoon) On motion, 716(06) carried. l'--ffi. CROSBIE: (07), Mr. Chairman, is Jurors 1 Fees and Other Expenses, and the a~ount provided is $11,000. It has been suggested by, I believe, the Newfoundland Federation of Labour 1 arnong others,and when I wrote the Premier before this House met, the Minister may remember I wrote the Premier and made certain suggestions for reforms that he Might brinr in this year and some of which the Premier was kind enough to include in the Speech from the Throne.

Among: the reforms I suggested were the increasing of the fees paid to jurors when they had to sit on Supreme Court cases or other cases to allow for the fact that if they were away from work for a day, particularily if it is a working man, a carpenter or a labourer and so on, that they lose a lot nore money than they are paid in jurors's fees, I think the amount paid a juror in a criminal case is something like ten or twelve dollars a day and in civil cases I think it is less than that. Is the Minister giving any consideration 4431

Nay 25, 1071 Tape 731 (afternoon) PK - l JI~. C~OSBIE: to increasing the amount paid. Could the winister tell us first whnt are the jurors fees that are now paid, and whether any consideration has been given to increasing- payment for jurors or what he plans to do about that? Yes, the ;Jewfoundland Federation of Labour, in their brief presented to the Government on '1-,'ay 19, on paize 11 it says; 11 jury duty, workers want to fulfil their obligations as citizens.

However, workers who are selected for jury duty suffer a loss income which they cannot afford. 'The allowance for Jury duty should be upgraded to permit full comnensation for lost wages. has been comte~plated? Could the minister tell us if that }lR. CURTIS~ He have given the matter some thought, t1r. Chainnan. We nay at the present time S5.00 a session, $5.00 for a morning, $5.00 for an afternoon, and if the jury comes hack in the night he p.ets another $5.00~ that is $15.0IJ a day, when they have three sessions.

He feel that we can hardly afford to increase that, and that we should not, On the other hand,perharis we should •. I mean it is an open question. It is one that is worry us and causing us some worry, particularly since we have had requests about it from the Federation of Lahour. nut there •are li""its to how far you can go. Fortunately, in this country you have not eot those long jury trials that stretch out into months. like they have in other jurisdictions. He feel that it is one's duty to serve on a jury. :rt is a privilep:e really.

Rut the tir:-:e is come, I think, lJh€n we are r,oinp to have to increase the fees. I r:cl.f!ht say when we increased them to SS.00 a session. it uas a hupe increase on what had been paid formerly. i!e may have to consider it: On motion 07 through 08 carried. :tR. F.ARLE: ·Mr. Chairman,12 - Contingencies - there was only S300 voted last year the amount was S8,000. Are there to be no continp:encies? It is rather hard to predict, T would imar,ine. But, the small vote of $300 as against $8,000 last year. Uhat was actually spent last year? On vhat? 4432

'ay 25~ 1071 'rape 731 (nfternoor) '<fD F_,A P_LF • r:ontingenc1es vote - ~8.000 novt ~30n. ---·- ---- "fP. CUP'J'I~: 1 reaJly do not 1,ncn-1, If the hon. 1'1.eriher wants the informatirm, T will get it -for 'b.ir11 • nn r,,otion iter1 corrieil. HP. CPll8JHE· lli - References to Suprerre f.'ourt of Canada re '1ffshore "incs. ~fr. Chairr.ian.

I Ponder could the minister, (I hate to ask the hen. minister a nuestion because we are not gettinp:: much in the uay of answers) .'!ould the ninister tell us sonethinp,, what is the status, it says here\ ''references to f:upreJT'e Court of r:nnrtda re Offshore Hines," This year on]v ~100 has heen asked for, last year there was $3() ,orin as Led fori 1.n the estimates last year,and 1accordinp: to the revised estil"1ate 1 only SlO~OOO spent. Now iust what is the status? This has to do with our claims to the oil, gas and minerals that lie off the shores of Newfoundland.

Pe know there was a reference to the Supreme Court of Canada,from nriti.sh rolumbia, the Government of Canada was successful in, which I think decided that the Government of f:arn=1da had the right to offshore Minerals, oil and gas nml so on off the coast of British Columbia. There is supnose to be a reference, if the Provinces and the GovernMent of Canada cannot agree. There is sunpose to he, if matters nre not settled hetween the provinces and the Government of Canada., a reference to the Supreme rourt of Canada ahout our posi.ti.on or the position of other provinces. /,nd,of course, there i.s no question, ur.

Chairman, that could be more ir:portant in this Province, I would not think>than the question of mmershio of the offshore mineral resources off our coast and on the Grand Banks, as to Phether we have the valid claim or the Government of Canada has the valid claim. I know that we hnve retained eminent counsel in Ottawa. T know that the minister has assigned i~r. Cyril Greene, formerly Deputy ~finister of Justice.

He was put on this matter in particular lagt fall or at least he left the Department of .Justice and he is now suppose to be special legal advisor to the Cabinet and in particular to be working on this refel:'ence to the Supreme Court of Canada. 4433

1 ray 25, 1971 Tape 731 (afternoon) PK - 3 1·fR. CROSBIE: Pe11. 1"r. Chairman, is there poing to he a reference to the Supreme Court of Canada? Is there beinp: any leral Hork done on th:!s? If tl-iere is p:oinp: to he a reference, when is it going to be proceeded wtth? Have the terms of reference of the Supreme Court of Canada beinp a.Q"reed hetii1een the Government of Canada and this Province.? Hhat is ha.poeninr on this whole question? If we are found to have the ownership of the possihle minerals. oil and gas resources off our coast, we would end up to be in a very healthy financial posit ton in this Province.

Hr. Chairman, even if oil or gas were discovered there this year. althoup:h i.t might he a few years before the full effects are felt, l.f we have the ownership then of course we are entitled to all the rovaliti.es and other income that ·v1m1ld c.Qt!le with that. Bo that, this is a very irrmortant ouestion for this Province. Now this vote has been here in the Department of Justice for three or four years now. Cou]d the minister tell us just what is happen:f.ng, what are the lawyers doinr? Is this case going to be proceeded with? Vhat is the position on it?

"rR. ,_5''"fP.J:J,Ji_ll0D: Mr, f:hairman, I hesitate to delay the passinr- of the estimates for the Depnrtment of Justice., i)ecause Pe have other departments whose e.stiIT'ntes hnve to he considered. Yet. the mattPr that the hon. Pentleman has jm;t ra:lser1 is one of su-preri,e importance to this Province. If ne 9"0 not arree on anythinf! else, 1-1e do at least arree on that.

Ohviously, if oi.1 and ~as are founi! off the coast of this Province, it r.1.eans an apful lot whether the financial returns from those riches come to the Treasury of this Province or po to the Treasury of Canada, at 0ttawa. 1t coulrl make a staggering nmount of difference in the prosriects of this rrovincc. tet us assume 1 for the sake of arinmient,that rreat quantities of oil and ereat quantities of ~as are found off the coast of Lahrador and off the coast of this Island. Let us assume that ,g-reat amounts of mom?:y wil 1 f,e paid by the companies who find ancl develop the 4434

"ay 25. 1071 Tare 731 (afterrioon) ~"R SHAJ,TJ}OOD: oil and .r.zas1 to soneone. They vill pay jt either to t½e Government of Canada or to the Government of this Province, one or the other.

If to the Government of this Province, it vi]l be n staggerin~; an absolutely staizr;erinp ar.ount of cash income every year, a starp:eri.np: amount, You have only to look, for example, at the State of Louisiana, State of California, or the Province of Alberta to see i:•.rhat the income from oil and gas could mean in the progress of a people. tf,on the other hand, these vast am.aunts of tax revenue, royality revenue should go to the Government of Canada,at Ottawa,and the Government of Canada retain one­ half of what thev collect and distribute the remainingr half amon~ the ten nrovinces, even if they do it on an equal bases that each province p,ets one-tenth of half, that is to say, that the Government of Canada keeps half and distrihutes the other half among the ten provinces.at the rate of one-tenth of the half to the ten province, e¥en then the a~ount of revenue that would cone to this Province could be small, Quite small comPared with all of it comin~ to this Province.

This is. of course, one of the really r-reat issues facing Canada today, an issue of supreme or almost supreme importance. Now the Government of the Province of British Columbia took the case to the Supreme Court of Canada or was it the Exchequer Court? It was one or the other.

Suprene Court, I think, of Canada, and on the evidence and agruments adduced by the Government of British Colu.,;\hia and by the Government of Canada the SuprelT'.e Court found in favour of Canada. of the Government of the nation. !fowfoundland had a lawyer present at this case, as an observer, but it was not our case, it was Tiritish Columbia's case. I asked the Prime ~tinister of Canada ,when that office was"held by ~Ir. PearRon ,to drop the idea of having the matter settled iudiciallyt by a court judgment, and have it settled rather on a politically bases. 4435

ttay 25, 1971 Tape 731 (afternoon) PY 1'1R. SMALLFODD ~ in other words, by agreement between the Government of Canada and the Governments of the ten provinces-, a politi.cal decision, on the political level. I was the one who raised that. T vas the one who proposed it. The Prime }Unister of Canada, 10fr* Pearson, said that 'Whiile he had a certain a.-nount of sympathy for that wav of doinr: it, he nevertheless felt that the matter was a constitutional matter. and tl-iat it ought therefore to he r;iven a judicial judp:ment.

Then he said; "i.f the provinces win that settles the matter~ If Canada wins we will deal renerously vith the provinces.'' Arl<l the 'provinces hail, to he satisfied with that decision of the Prine Yinister and the case did po to the Suprene Court ,on option, on the initiative of the G{rvernment of British Colutr11'ia, 5 and the f-'trprer,e rourt of Canada ruled in favour of the Governrient of Canada.. ?"!ow there has been no further action in the Supreme \.ourt. This is the only opinion tl:at has heen rendered by any court, as fnr as T knoP.

The ;'iePfoundland Government feels stronrly that Pe have a special case that no otJ.er nrovince has. T',ut we have not de.cider! to take it tn court. thour,[, 'v>e do f~el that we have n hetter cnse than Tir:tti.f:l-t C'olurnhia had or than hns any othe province Pe have not tal·en it to court. hAcause ve feP-1, still feel 1 thnt it oup-ht to be decided on a political r;i.ther tlinn n _iudicir.l level. T.8t r·e rive von-; 'fr, Chairrran, an illustration what T think has a -perfect hea.rinr on this cnse- perfect.

There v.1s a time in ranada,flnd this was before ,.,e were a province, when the f'overnmcnt of Canada had more territory on the Continent than she has today. Today the Government of Cannda has the ~'.orthwest Territory and the Yukon and no other, 1,ut there was a time .when all t"he land north of a certain line acrosR nuehec belonged to C,:mnda and not to 0uehec and all the land north of a certain line in Ontario belonged to Canada, and all the land north of a certain line across Hanitoba belonged to Canada, just as today all the· land 4436

"-\:1.y 25, 1~71 Tape 731 (afternoon) Pk - 6 : 1P. s;_.:t,.LLt:'00~ north of a certain line across Saskatchewan and Alberta and British f'.olnmhia helonrs to Canada- Federal Territorv. S.o it uas in fluebec. Ontario and ~.fanitoba 1 up to a relatively short t:tme ap:o. Nov what ha~pened? What happened, },!r & Chairman. L, of the upmos,: importance when you rememher that, in the view of the Suprene Court of Canada,in the case of B~ltish Columbia versus Canada (in that case) that the land belongs to Canada, the land lyinp: offshore is Federal land. True there is Pater over it.

True there is salt water over it. but that lane belonp;s to Canada, just as the Yukon does~ just as the !'lorth"to1est Territory does beilion? to Canarla~So that land belongs to Canada, not to the Vrovince of '.3ritish Columbia. .lust as the lnnd that lay north of 0uebec and lay north of Ontario and lay north of ~·!anitoba belonq:erl formerlv to Canada, so the Uorthwefit Territory and the Yukon now beJ ong to Canada. so the land lyinr off the racific Coast and the land lying off the Atlantic Coast belongs to Canada. Now let us assume that to be the case.

Let us assume that to he the case. ~)hat happened in fact, historically? In fact, as a matter of fact, what happened is that the Government of Canada pave to 0uebec a p;ift of a huge stretch of land that helonged to Canada. It did not belon!" to Ouebec. The Government of Canada gave to Ontario a gift of a huge slice of land~ Federal land that l~elonged to Canada, gave it to Ontario as a gift. And they did exactly the same thing to Ontario.

Just as though they ,,1ere now to take the Northwest Territory and give it as a r,ift to British Columbia and, say, Alberta. and they were now to take the Yukon,. which ever it is ,(I forget which is west and which is east) if they were to give_ the Yukon and the Northwest Territory now)as ~ifts, unincumbered gifts, to the tuo provinces beside which that Federal land now lies i they would only be doing \rhat they did when they gave the Federal land to Quebec, Ontario and to Hanitoba. 4437

"ay 25, 1971 Tape 731 (afternoon) Pl::-7 \-fR. S''J\LLHflOD~ ?fow this is what happened historically. I am not making this up.

This is what in fact happened in the history of Canada. ?,:'m•-' you have ot~er Federal land. if you can assume it to be Federal land, I if it is Federal lanr:, as t1-: Supr0me Court sa:.Hi :! l iE +' f the lan{ lying off the cost of this Island and the Coast of Lahrrtdor is truly Federal land, if it ts, as the Yukon is, ns the Northwest Territory is. if it is really Federal land ,Hhy should not the Governsent of Canada give th11.t land as a rift to the Province of t!ei"•foumUand, the nart t1:at ltes off the Province. of ·1ewfoun<lland, to the Province of Fova Scotia, the part that lies off the Province of Nova Scotia and so on, as exactly they did,as they did precisely to nuehec, Ontario and 'fanitoba?

If it were rifaht to do it then, 1 t is right to do it nne. Indeed, there is a stronr,er case for doinr, it now than t'1ere Pas for <loinf it then, hecause of this fact, }mt certainly so far as the Jl.tlanti.c is concerned, the 1\tlantic Coast is concerned. it is precisely on the Atlantic Coast that the hnvP.-not provinces lie~,.

T_slanri, Novn f-'coti.a anrt 'fl':ew Brunswick a.ml all the easterr half of nuehec or the have-not p.i.rts of Canada. r,,1nada witP nar.niFicent precedent, a.c: found in the cases of <'uehec, 'tanitoha and f'intario in 1-ietFeen, receivirir gifts from ('anada of lanr1, with magnificent precedent can say; 'lue can propose to do tt'le sari~ thin? that v•e did in those cases and there is a hetter case for doinr it now because we are doing it now to help rerlress the iust t'rievance of these have not provinces, as part of our whole philosophy of renucing r~gional disparity.

So when Canada p.ave to 0uebec a rreat slice of Vederal land and gave another p;reat slice to Ontario and another to \fanitoba. uhen they did that they <lid not share it with the rer,iaininr: orovinces. So noF in,givinp us, if they p.ave us the land that lies off our shore. which,if it is Federal, they have a rir-ht to doTif it is Federal they h~ve a riP.ht to p:ive it to us, as they gave it to Ouebec and they gave it to Hanitoba and to Ontario. So they have a ri~ht to give it to us and they have a rirht 4438

Hay 25, 1971 Tape 731 (afternoon) PK - f: 'Tl:. SNALLi·JOOD: to r.-ive it to us without anyone else sharinp: 1n it, hecause no one else shared in the gift they rave nuebec, 0ntario and Hanitoba. What they suggest. what che !'rime !'finister has sugv,este<l to the provinces.(we have not accepted it)is that they will not give it to us as they did to Ouebec, Ontario and iranitoba, they will hold on to it.

Any royalc1es they get from it, they will keep as to one-half of them and as to the other half~ they will not p.:ive lt to the provinces in which it will exist but they will divide it among the ten provinces. :·:ow I ask this question. I asked the rmestion, why should Ontario get a share of the riches of the Federal land lying off :-:ova Scotia or Newfoundland? Why should they r,et a share of those riches when in fact Nova Scotia did not get a share of the Federal riches that were handed as a pift to 0ntario? \·:hy? That is our case and this is the case that we are puttinr- to the Government of Canada.

I personally think it is 1.manswerahle. vayhe legally it is answerable, maybe constitutionally it is answerahle but morally it is unanswerable. It is ironclad. It is irrefraeable. Tt is induhitahly. There is no answer to it. This is what soMe of us have agreed to put to the r.onference next month, :tn Victoria. I hope to p:et the opportunity to state this case publicly to the people of Canarla,over television,in Victoria next month. They are going to televise a substantial part of the conference, and I hope to seize that opportunity to state that case.

Namely:_ that even if Ottawa insist that they mm this land, as they once owned the land north of (!uebec, Ontario, ~•anitoba, if they insist that they mm it, that they give it to ~s,as they gave it to them, and they give it to us without sharinp. it with the other provinces, as they did ,then that they give it to us for the additional reason 4439

May 25", 1971 Mr. Smallwood. Tape no. 732 Pagel - MRW that ,in addition to being historically justified and well precedented, magnificently precedented, in addition to that it would help the needy provinces, the underdeveloped provinces, the provinces which regional disparity hurts, as it helps other provinces. Because remember that disparity means some are up and some are downa The very measurement of disparity is the richest of the provinces. Compared with them, other provinces are very disparate, very down, very poor,by comparison.

This would be a method of helping the provinces which suffer most from regional disparity. Now this is the reason why - I hope my hona friend from St. John's West,who. I know. has been interested in this matter, he has spoken of it repeatedly. I hope that he will be big enough to see two things: (1) that we have not ignored • We have retained one of the most brilliant lawyers in Canada. We have his opinion,that we are not ignoring it.

We are right not - at least not yet-to take it to the court and that we are right in trying to keep it on a purely political level to get a decision that is morally right, no matter what it might or might not be constitutionally. I hope you will agree with the position that we are taking. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, I am sure that when the Premier makes his presentation we will all be watching with interest. He has made some persuasive presentations at these conferences before. I have no doubt that he will do a good job with this one. Only the Government can know what legal advice the Government have tendered.

A political settlement of this issue would be. the best one. All I can say on the point is this; Mr. Chairman, that for the Government of Canada to ask us, that is the Province of Newfoundland or the other Maritime Provinces,to accept a proposal where they would share fifty per cen~ of the revenue, oil, gas and other minerals off our shores with the other provinces of Canada is just too laughable to consider. I have 4440

May 25, 1971 Tape no. 732 Page 2 - MRW Mro Crosbie. no doubt that the Government would not for a moment accept such a proposal~ Why should this Province - I understand that we have 6,000 miles of coastline and that we claim about fifty-two !-t!r cent: of the total Eastern offshore permit area.

In other words I am going now by a news letter of the Atlantic Provinces Economic Council, February,1971, where they say we feel that we have a claim to fifty-two per cent of the total Eastern offshore permit areao Why should this Province be expected to share fifty per cent of the revenue with all the provinces of Canada, including Ontario and including Manitoba and including Alberta, Sackatchewan that are not on any sea coast at all? To my mind that is just ridiculous. Any government of Newfoundland that would accept such a proposal would very quickly find itself out of office.

Apparently that is the proposal, The proposal is: That we would retain jurisdiction over a limited inshore region and that the rest of it; Ottawa would subdivide the revenue, fifty per cent to all the provinces and fifty per cent to the Government of Canada at Ottawa. That would not be acceptable, Mr. Chairman but would only be acceptable if we were advised that we had little or no chance that this matter proceed to the Supreme Court of Canada.

It certainly would not be acceptable otherwise~ What the Premier puts forward, what the Premier says that the Government of Newfoundland will ask for, which is that we get one hundred per cent of this pie, if there is a pie there, if the Federal Government own it, is certainly eminently desirable, sensible and practical.

But if that turns out not to be acceptable, certainly I am sure this House expects and I know the Premier will do no less;that we do not expect the Government to accept or to even consider accepting fifty per cent of the revenues, our share of fifty per cent of the revenues to be divided among ten provinces - never! MR, SMALLWOOD: One-tenth of half, MR. CROSBIE: One-tenth of half. If it goes - I do not know how they divide that, whether each province would just get one-tenth or whether it would depend 4441

May 25, 1971 Tape no, 732 Page 3 Mr. Crosbie~ on your coastline. It do not think that we should ever accept that. After all if we are enough to be situated on an area ~hr~  s GOine to produce oil and gas ••• MFL SMALLWOOD: No! No! No! It is not a matter of luck. It is a matter of good Government - good Liberal Government. That is why the oil and gas are out there. MR. CROSBIE: The reason why we need oil and gas •.. MR. SMALLWOOD: Do not try to take the credit from us. MR. CROSBIE: The reason why we need the gas and oil revenues so badly is because we got a good Liberal Government.

We have even greater need for them than we might have h~d. But certainly I am sure the Premier is not going to (He has not tc date) nor the Government would accept this suggestion. I feel sure that both sides of the House will baak the Government to the hilt in not accepting such a puny settlement as the one that is being offered. At the very least we should get fifty per cent • I am not saying that this should be accepted. At the very least, it should be fifty per cent of the Oil and gas revenues of the area that we claim off our shore, I hope nothing less but a great deal more.

In addition to what the Premier has said, could the Minister of Justice explain 1 would a $100 in the vote this year indicate that there is not going to he any legal work on this matter this year or at least very little? I assume that is because the Government are taking a political approach which may or may not be successful. Is Mr. Cyril Greene doing any work on this? What is the position with respect to Mr. Greene7 I gather from What the Premier has said the Government do not accept the offer that Mr.

Trudeau's Government made, that we are still pursuing political means to get a better offer, which the Premier intends to press in British Columbia. We do not want to go to the Supreme Court of Canada unless we cannot get any satisfactory offer from the Government of Canada. So would the minister just 4442

May 25, 1971 Mr. Crosbie~ Tape no. 732 Page 4 bring us up-to-date on the legal position? Does he not expect any legal work this year? l·!R. CURTIS: Oui officials, Mr. Chairman, are pursuing the m,stter to gef* all the lastest knowledge so as to advise the Governn.e.nt just where we are. I do not care to go beyond that. MR. EARLE: Mr. Chairman, there is one aspect of all this which I think rather escapes notice. We all seem to feel that maybe millions of dollars of wealth are boiling from the bottom of the seas out here. Let us hope that that proves to be the case.

We hope that we will reap and estimate of balance whether it is fifty per cent, or ten per cent or whatever the legal chaps eventually come around to on this. I hope that Newfoundland gets its just share by all means. But the other aspect of it is 1which worries me,, if in fact it is not an asset to us but it turns out to be a marine tragedy, should the oil companies who are MR. SMALLWOOD: Point of order! I missed the .. MR.

EARLE: Should this turn out to be a marine tragedy and not an asset - we have heard a lot about what the Cabinet or the members of the Cabinet saw,what was going on on the Louisiana Coast and so on~where they are drilling in the mud flats~ I think any amateur who knows nothing at all about the oil tl\:1$iness would realize that conditions on the Grand Banks of Newfoundland or off the shore of Newfoundland must be inestimably more difficult tha:1- anything that could be encountered off the Louisiana Coast.

Now we have seen great tragedies happen off the shore of California where enormous oil spills have taken place. They have done a tremendous amount of damage. In the event that oil is discovered off the Grand Banks and in spite of all the engineering marvels and the precautinns that these companies may take - we are told from people who are knowledgeable in the business that they are taking every possible precaution_ but in the event that all of this breaks down at some point and there is a terrific spill,which might well damage the fisheries off the coast of this Province for centuries to come, There is 4443

May 25, 1971 Tape no, 732 Page 5 Mr~ Earle every possibility that anything of that magnitude would have an everlasting affect,for generations. Supposing we do not reap great benefits from the oil but we do reap a great tragedy and the destruction of the fisheries, who will compensate us for that? Will the Government, the Federal Govern~2n~ be willing to pay off Newfoundland for a great loss of great industry? We hear that the Minister of Transport is putting in very stingent regulations about the transportation of fuel oil and so on, bulk oil.

But there are all sorts of problems which might well arise on the Grand Banks which I think even the experts today cannot aniticpate or do notknow too much about at this stage of the game~ It seems to me that this Province is so vitally concerned about what might happen out there, that,in any talks we have with Ottawa, we should also not be just looking for just a share of the wealth, hut we should also be looking to protect ourselves from any disaster that might occur. It is all very well to say that every precaution is being taken. These people know their business. It is just not going to happen.

How do we know? It is something entirely new and in an entirely new area. If such a thing should happen, it would be the Province of Newfoundland, the coast of Newfoundland that would suffer. Now when the delegation had returned from Louisiana and I was listening to some of the reports on that which were given over television, particularly people who were interested in the fish~such as Mr. Etchegary and others, apparently there was a groat concern in their minds • They were not at all satisfied with what they saw.

Perhaps they did not have the full knowledge necessary but still they were sufficiently alarmed to express an opinion on it. What I am doing here now is expressing a conceni;if the thing should turn the wrong way. If it should not develop to be just a flow of wealth from the ocean bottom but a flow of disaster, cannot there be some precautions taken in advance that Newfoundland in some way will be compensated? We have, we are told, some of the best legal brains in Canada trying to work on these offshore arrangements, the mineral rights and so on.

I do not think that a token vote of $100 will pay very much towards the retention of these people. 4444

May 25, 1971 Tape no. 732 Page 6 Mr. Earle. But¥at the same time 1 are they thinking about the other aspect of the thing? Are we pressing our case? We here in Newfoundland are the ones who should be pressing. We cannot, in a thing of this nature, rely on the Federal Government to watch our interests.

Well intentioned as they may be, I do not think they are as close to the problem as we are~ Certainly,if any disaster happens they will be a lot further away from it than we are~ So I wonder if,in all these legal preparations and so on, there are any precations being taken against the thing going all the wrong way instead of the right way7 I wonder what our department is doing~ in its advice to the legal people who are working on this,as to considerinr that approach to it. MR. SMALLWOOD: I do not know, Mr. Chairman, to what extent Ynur Honour would allow a debate now on the practicalities of offshore drilling.

It is a vote for legal work. The vote we are debating is a vote for legal work. The vote we are debating is a vote of money for the Department of Justice for the hiring of lawyers. To what extent would we be in order to discuss pollution, the danger of spillage and so oni I have serious doubt that it would be permitted by Mr. Chairman. Hay l just say this,very briefly ,and I will not make a speech about it; the drilling is going to take place whether we like it or not, We have no power to stop it. Canada has no power to stop it. It cannot be stopped. It is in international waters. It is 120 miles off St~ John's.

That is out in international waters. It is going to take place whether we like it or not~ We cannot stop it~ What we can do is thiR: We can use our dry land, our seaports and their need to use our seaports, :we can use that as a sort of weapon. if there is any need to use it. I find it that they are even more eager not to have any spillage than we are. They are terribly conscious of the fact that all mankind is watching them 1like a cat watching a mouse, you know~ They are very conscious of that~ So they should be. Of course, they should be* It is a terrible loss to them~ 4445

May 25, 1971 Tape no. 732 Page 7 Mr. Smallwood. It is a terrible disrepute. It is a terrible bad name for them~ It is iust terrible, from every point of view~to them as it is to us. They are watching that. May I say also 1 before l sit down ,that 1 think it will we tomorrow or the day after tomorrow a drilling ship is arriving in Argentia, from Israel. It is a fairly large ship. It is not an oil drilling rig but a ship, a complete ship. In fact, she is coming across through the Mediterranean and across the Atlantic,under ber own steam.

She will arrive in Argentia tomorrow or the next day, this week~ She has on board her a drill. It is a ship with a drill aboard~ She can go anywhere along ardstop, throw d0wn the anchor and put a drill down. She is coming in and going to Argentia where she will spend perhaps six weeks being completely refitted. Then she is going down on the coast of Labrador. She may very well do some drilling down on the coast of Labrador. Then we heard Mr. Brian Higgins announce today that St. John's Harbour is going to see this summer nine - nine different ships servicing offshore drilling rigs.

I can tell the conrrnittee that the most knowledgeable people are completely convinced. They have no doubt about it that we are in for an absolutely staggering oil boom,lying off the coast of this Province. It is utterely staggering 1 which makes the present vote that the Minister of Justice is asking for a pretty important one.

So we may not in fact or please God we will not, we may not have to spend a single dollar~ Just in case we do have to hire lawyers, the minister is asking for this token vote from the committee today~ MR, CROSBIE: Before the item carries, Mr~ Chairman, it is very important and I know the Government realize it,for the question to be settled this year, if at all possible.

Once oil is found off the shores here, I think everybody is satisfied that it will be 1 then there are going to be a lot of problems which can only be dealt with by Government, by legislation, by Order-in-Council, by regulations and by one administrative authority. If it is still uncertain that when that times comes whether it is this Government or the Government of Canada or the Government of Nova Scotia that has jurisdiction, it is going to make things very difficult and if there is going to be a political settlement, it is much to be hoped that it will be this year; if there is not going to be 4446

May 2~, 1971 Mr~ Crosbie. Tape no 732 Page 8 a political settlement,the issue will be settled by the Supreme Court of Canada as soon as possible. I have just one other question for the Minister of Justice: This

article I refer to, this newsletter about oil and gas that I found very interesting, 1t nl:.o saia: nfi¼;.roundL,,Hl :;.a not claiming at this time control over all offshore metalic minerals. It sees an obvious need for Ottawa to eventually participate in the administration of offshore resources/ 1 It says that this should not supersede primary provincial rights. Is that statement correct? At this time there is not a dispute over offshore metalic minerals? It is the other kinds of minerals. I presume that means oil and gas.that is being decided now. Is it the whole question of minerals? MR.

SMALLWOOD: The whole question. MR. MARSHALL: Mra C~airman, on (16), I wonder if the minister could inform us when he expects the reconsolidation to be available, is it this year? MR. CURTIS: The first two volumes have been daalt with. I believe they are now being printed. If so, it will only be a matter of a short while before the first two volumes are available for distribution~ But the first two volumes, themselves, will be valueless because nobody wants two volumes of a set of Statutes.

So imnediately the type can be thrown away and remelted_ tbe difficulty has been finding enough type to keep six volumes setup at the one time. MR. MURPHY: Is it going to be in French,as mentioned a few years ago in the~House,or is it just going to be in the English version? MR. CURTIS: I think just English~ In connection with the legal aid, Mr. Chairman, I would like to say how much we, as a Government, appreciate the work which is being done by the Law Society and the Legal Aid Committee, which is headed up by Mr. Finton Aylward. That committee has done a marvelous job~ I am hoping to issue a statement shortly.

I did intend to say so in the estimates,as we were going through~ I thought it would delay the House~ I think the situation could just as well be covered 4447

May 25, 1971 Tape no. 732 Page ·9 Mr. Curtis; if I made a statement on it, as I propose to do to the press. But the legal a.id people<, tl-e::e was a committee consj sting nf Mr Avlwn,r".l Mr. - there were several others. I believe my hon. friend was oue of them. That committee did do a marvelous job. Legal Aid is a terribly expensive-thing in other provinces. I do not knOY just how we are going to be able to handle it here. I just hear that New Brunswick voted $300i000 for legal aid.

Nova Scotia is adopting a policy that We are presently adopting, that is trying to find a lawyer and have him engaged full-time to just look into the local situation and to make a similar arrangement, a short-time arrangement with some lawyer on the West Coast. But just as an example: I was talking over the phone the other day with somebody in Toronto~ A certain young boy got into trouble~ They supplied him with a lawyer. The lawyer gave him two hours one day, an hour and a-half the next day. He seht the Government the bill,for $590.

I might say that these lawyers can get fees like that, we will touch our hats to the doctors. But the matter is very, very serious.

I think we have to give legal aid to people~ Sometimes I doubt it~ When you see a person.with a record as long as your arm, and then expect a lawyer to then go and defend him,at public expense - when a man beats up his wife, sends her to the hospital, critically ill>and then goes to a hospital with a gun and shoots her and kills her,and I have to pay $2.500 to defend him, it goes against the grain. - capital punishment, no nonsenseJ In some ways legal aid can get you down and it gets me down in some cases. There are lots of poor people who need lawyers' help and willing I grant it.

But to pay out good money to defend criminals, well it goes against the gratn. However 1 that is not the matter which we are discussing at the moment. I am going to ask my hon. friend if he will increase this vote,because the Law Society has agreed to continue for another year. I promised them that we would have $25,000 available,which is a pure minimum. I am hoping the time will come when the Federal Government will participate 4448

May 25, 1971 Mr~ Curtis Tape no 732 Page 10 in this vote. But it is a thing we have to watch carefully. I do not think we ought to waste the people's money too much although Heaven's knows 1 would be the last one,.~ i•iy department. scand ever reaCj and has>ever since I have been there ,to give what assistance we can to anybody who find themselves in the unfortunate position of not being able to afford a lawyer9 MR, JONES: Mr, Chairman, I move that Legal Aid (17) be changed from $10,000 to $25,000 and that the total subhead and the total department be adjusted to read accordincly~ On motion amendment carried. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, on

(17) Legal Aid, as I understand it the Legal Aid Society is now attempting to get a full-time lawyer or with the Govemment 1 s help are attempting to get a full-time lawyer to act in this J.egal Aid Programme.G But I have no doubt at all that it is needed~ The minister mentioned that there is the question of Government appointing counsel to defend people accused of criminal charges,which the Government do when you are accused of a capital charge such as murder. 4449

May 25, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 733 NC - 1 MR. CROSBIE: Yes non-capital, rightt You cannot be a hanging Minister any longer now. But ..:1 ~s leg,al aid as a vote: :Ls not, althouz}i the uefence OJ. people charged with crimes and so on is important, I think the matter of legal aid is far more important in other directions and that is that people who do not have money or cannot afford to pay fees have a job to get legal advice.

It is far more important for them to get legal advice or there are far more people needing legal advice than there are who face a criminal charge and have to go to the Legal Aid Society for that purpose~ I think this is particularly true in domestic cases. I am not all that familiar with legal aid because I have not been practicing that much and I think that legal aid programme includes matrimonial work. No it does not. It does not include acting in separations and so on. Well if that is the case, and the Member for St. John's East I think was on the Committee, that being the case, Mr.

Chairman, it ls a very great weakness in our legal aid programme if it does not provide for the lawyers involved to give advice to people who are having w~trimonial problems, in other words people who are separated - MR..!-...HpRP[Y..:., Advice to the lovelorn. MR~ CROSBIE: Right, advice to those - MR. ~URI,!~ That is one of the inhibitions they contemplate. I would go so far as to help people get divorces. MR. GRDSBIE: Exactly, the Minister says that these terms of reference will be changed with the increased money and - MR. SMALLWOOD (J.R.): Inaudible, MR.

CRqSBIE: It is the lovelorn that often need the most help, Mr. Chairman. It is suprising the amount - MR. SMALLWOOD: On one hand he encourages divorce and on the other he wants capital punishment. It is amazing the amount of misery that arises from matrimony, Mr. Chairman, 4450

May 25, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 733 NC - 2 MR. SMALLWOOD: It is not to conserve capital punishment MR. CROSBIE: So I am glad to hear the Minister say that he is going to change that because I find, and I am sure other lawyers do too, that you get an awful lot of calls from people whose husband has deserted them or there is some problem like that4 They want to get a separation agreement, they have children, a family court, and they do not have money and if the legal aid programme is being expanded >then this aspect of the law should certainly be included. I am glad to hear the Minister say it will beo But Mr.

Chairman, even with the expanded programme this year, I think that the time is coming and the ~inister mentioned that Ottawa is going to get involved in this and I understand they are, the time is coming when you will have to have a full legal aid system as we have in Ontario4 Then the people of the Province can consult whatever lawyer they want to eonsult; they are not restricted to just seeing the one man who is employed by the legal aid office, point several weeks ago. I think the Member for St.

John's East made that I think in Ontario you have an agreed scale of fees1insofar as legal aid is concerned1and that the lawyers who participate in the programme are paid three-quarters of the scale. Eventually here in Newfoundland we will be coming to the same thing. But in the meantime,this is a good st~p forward and I am glad to hear the Minister say that he is go±ng to see the terms of reference are expanded. MR. MAHONEY: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the information that my hon. friend for St. John's West has is not absolutely correct.

The Legal Aid Division of the Law Society has been providing legal assistances in matrimonial cases and in divorce, in cases where the applicants are not capable of paying themselves and where a certificate is provided by the Welfare Officer in the area. I do know of several divorce cases that were done through legal aid,on a non-fee basis,together with separation agreements and the like~ These have been attended to in cases where certain certification has been made by a Welfare Officer that the applicant concerned did not have the necessay means to pay legal fees. 4451

May 25, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 733 NC - 3 MR. MARSHALL: To clarify that , the situation is legal aid is only available, as the hon, iunior member for Harbour Main indicates,but the effect of •this is that for matrimonial cases, that it is virtually - it does not help the ;;~ople involved because it is the exception rather than the rule that 1 through legal aid, matrimonial cases are handled• T}1is is the way it works out. The hon. junior member for Harbour Main has stated the way it works out in theory, which is correct,and this is the rule that has been laid down by the Legal Aid Committee.

But in practice it works out that it is very much the exception rather than the rule and it is this area, particularly this area, that needs attention from the Department of Justice. The major area which it does not cover and on a voluntary system we cannot hope to adequately cover this all important area because of the numbers of cases that arise in this instance. We would be doing nothing else buL But certainly, if a proper programme of legal aid is instituted in the Province, it will have to include this as well as items that have had to be excepted by the voltmtary legal aid system.

I note that this is the question I was going to ask the hon. Minister,as to the adequacy of the vote in view of the fact that an expansion in legal aid is being contemplated by the Government. However>I would again point out that while the situation of having a paid employee to administer legal aid, I think that this can only be regarded,at the best, as a temporary situation because the ideal purpose of legal aid is to put tlu poor person, the person who cannot afford to avail of legal services,in the same situation as somebody who can afford and he 1 in that case,should have his choice of lawyers.

The only way that this can be done is to have a proper sjstem of repayment, not necessarily the whole fee but certainly a portion of it. So I say that while this is a beginning probably, $25,000 has been voted for the purpose of hiring a full-time solicitor, it should only be regarded as the beginningJ that the terms of reference should be very much expanded, particularly to encompass these matrimonial cases and that ultimately the Government should be aiming towards providing a legal aid system where the indigent person can afford to select, or is able to select, the lawyer of 4452

May 25, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No, 733 NC - 4 MR. MARSHALL: his or her choice, MR. CURTIS: As the hon. member saidiMr. Chairman, this is purely an experiment, I believe, since we decided to have the -2.xperiment here., l find that t1.L, 1s what is really taking place in NoVa Scotia. They are experimenting as we are and this is purely an axperiment. I might say we have not been able to get a lawyer yet. We have advertised but we have only had one applicant. It is pretty hard to get a lawyer.

But as for matrimonial cases, the Clerk of the House ju~t told me that he is presently engaged,under legal aid.to look after tfie respondent in a divorce case~ so divorce cases are receiving some attention.

I think the' Law Society, which has been very generous in this matter,when you realize that the Law Society had the names put down in alphabetical order and every time a case comes up it goes to the next person on the list, and that the lawyers, without exception, have accepted the responsibility when their turn came, lt is a wonderful tribute to them and1 as Minister of Justice 1I have almost expelled the hon. member from the House. MR.

MURPHY: With reference to (18),has this vote been transferred somewheref 'rhere was Sl0,000 in 1969-70, and $10,000 in 1970-71 but last year revised to nothing, nothing spent,apparently, This year just a token $100 - compensation to persons injured. MR. CURTIS: As a matter of fact the vote was originally~$10,000 but no~claims came in. As long as there is $100 vote4,it keeps the vote open and the Government can vote any additional monies that should be necessary. There have been very few claims made so far under this heading.

When it gets organized,! am afraid there will be more but at the moment that$$ supposition. As I told the House the other day, the Workmen's Compensation Board is at the moment administering it1 but they have had no cases yet. I am hoping that real meritorious cases will be dealt with. MR* MURPHY: With reference to 7181::-0l, there is an increase of $28,000, is this updated now to the last agreement of the Police1 l'!R. CURTIS: No. This was printed before we did this. 4453

May 25, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 733 NC - 5 MR. MURPHY: With regard to 720-01, the Fire Commissioner -$27,000, has the Commissioner got one or two assistants? MR. CURTIS: The Commissioner and one Deputy I one fui.1-tirne deputy .. J..d. course a lot of the outports have their own deputies. They are not paid by us. MR. MURPHY: On (04) are these firemen brought in to Central Fire Hall for training or is it on the spot,in their own particular areas? r,m. CURTIS: Oh sometimes they come in and sometimes we send a man out. MR, CROSBIE: With regard to (04-01), what is the arrangement for fire protection? MR.

CURTIS: We make a contribution toward Otta~a, Department of Public Works in Ottawa. MR. CROSBIE: But there are firemen down there actually employed by the Government of Canada,is it? by the Government of Canada? The firemen at Fort Pepperrell are employed MR._CU~IS: Yes we just make a contribution. MR. CROSBin So their service can be used just in the Pepperrell area or anywhere in St. John's? MR. CURTIS: There is an arrangement whereby we help them out and they help us out. MR. MARSHALL: With regard to (ozqo1), there is something I would like to ask the Minister about.

Sometime ago there was an amendment to The Companies Act, where companies with shareholders, I believe, it is over fifty peopleJ that were not required to register the names of the shareholders. Now to my mind, I think this probably defeats, to a certain extent, the intent of The Companies Act, to give notice to people who are connected with companies.

I realize that when you have a huge concern where you have about, anywhere from five hundred to a thousand and upward shareholders, it might be a nuisance but I wonder has the Minister given any consideration to requiring that individuals holding, say,more than ten per cent or>depending upon,of course,the size of the company itself; that that company would have to report at the Registry the names of those shareholders, the majority share- 4454

May 25, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 733 NC - 6 MR. MARSHALL: holders 1 in other words, not the minor shareholders who hold one or two shares,as such, but people who have shareholdings of substance. I think this is really a matter of some necessity. I do not see why the arbitrary figure of fifty, I think it is fifty,when I say fifty I believe it is fifty or twenty-five should be taken and in the one case there has to be a revelation of everybody who holds shares in that company and in the other case, the case of the bigger company, share­ holders need not be recorded. MR.

CURTIS: The only thing that brought about that legislation is the fact that since Confederation we have had a lot of large foreign companies in­ corporating here. You might have one company,say Simpson Sears,for instance, the head office control all the shares and that is that. You get no information at all. But when it was brought in,they were thinking more of firms like The Anglo Newfoundland Development Company, Bowaters, BRINCO, all these various Companies that deal here.

It has been really just burdensome and really to no effect to have a list of these shareholders because an awful lot of shares in these companies, in any eventiare held fn the name of a brokerage company or something like that. I do not think you would get the information you think you should have,but I will be glad to keep the matter in mind. It has occured to me several times,perhaps we should look into it We have a lawyer down there now and I think he may look at things differently. I hope that Mr. Tessier down there will be able to guide,us and let us find out what they are doing in the other provinces. MR.

MURPHY: In recent years there have been certain companies formed to do certain work for a certain Govemment and,in going through the Registry down here,you find that perhaps there is one gentleman and then there is the girl working in his office and then perhaps his wife is this company, you know. Just how do people get away with this type of thing,-when it is known that that is not the principals of this company? As I say,! am speaking as a layman.

It may be legitimate under the law but if I want to find out who the shareholders are, or the people incorporated, I will just give them the bum steer by looking up this Registry. 4 4 5 5

May 25, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 733 NC - 7 MR. CURTIS: No well that is not a burn steer, Mr. Chairman, there is absolutely nothing improper about that at all. It really means that th2 man in gc1est.lon Ow"'tls the busines;c,. l:c o".ffic ...,:a s.f:..:: _ha ... ,-.:, nut v1 of The Companies Act there has to be three shareholders and therefore he has t'.o have two dummies with him and the dummy, God Forbid: wife and his secretary. It is just really a manoeuver - MR. MURPHY: How do you latch onto these people? MR. CURTIS: I beg your pardon! MR. MURPHY: I mean this is known.

There are people - may be his MR~ CURTIS: It is know yes but the other people are just there because, under The Companies Act and under all the practices of the companies, there must be at least two shareholders and if one man has ninety-eight shares and his wife has one share and his secretary has one share, well,to all intents and purposes, it is a company owned by the man in question and ten chances to one the other two shares have been signed over to him. He really owns all one hundred shares,but that is purely a legal pattern. MR. MURPHY: A legal job. It is legal but not honest. MR.

CURTIS: I have given you nothing free. MR. MURPHY: With regard to 722-01 Joint Service Garage, is this the garage now that does all the Government vehicles1 MR. CURTIS: No, all the Fire Department vehicles. J:!lll. MURPHY: Fire Department only? MR. CURTIS: And Police. MR. MURPHY: Mr.

Chairman, there is just one question I would like to ask and it is not the Canada Pension Plan, it is not salary adjustments.but possibly I can ask it on the total,and that is with reference, and we have heard it raised every year, it is a hardy annual in this House,and that is with reference to pensions of retired firemen and policemen,who retired fifteen and twenty years ago on very, very meager,paultry,if you like, starvation pensions., I know I get ~everal requests,! guess many other members do1 on the same thing what are the chances of getting some of these up­ dated!

I was suprised there last year,when one gentleman mentioned this 4456

May 25, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No, 733 NC - 8 MR. MURPHY: and he was told by whoever he phoned, he did not tell me at the time but, "look what are you worrying about now, you are getting the Old Age Pension/' Apparently he had reached the age of seventy. Has the Government any moral or legal responsibility to these men? I have heard some quoted, as a matter of fact I believe shortly there will be some kind of a brief presented to the House,because a number of e,wpolicemen, as far as I understand,bave formed an associatiop,and possibly all the information might be in that.

But I have been requested by one or two,at least, wardens from the penitentiary, and wives of firemen and policemen, and I am wondering morally and legally, is there anything we can do to update some of these, to keep up with the cost of living, Because they are starvation pensions in a great many instances] MR. CURTIS: Legally, as my hon friend knows, the police have no claim, but morally they may have a claim. Of course,you must admit the coming of the Old Age Pension has really helped a lot of them. On the other hand, the government is taking a very sympathetic view.

We have referred the matter to the Treasury Board and the Treasury Board is giving every consideration to the matter and I do hepe, in the interest of those who need it, that 'they will aoom come with up a very satisfactory report. _pepartrnent of Highways: MR. STARKES: Mr. Chairman, I do not propose to go into very ~reat detail in connection with the Estimates at this time. I will make a very brief run down, beginning with the first item, Mr. Chairman, the first itern,as the Cdmmittee will note that provision has been made for an extra $10 thousand.

I want to assure the Committee I am not looking for an increase in salary,under Minister~ salary, If you will note, that is provision for an Executive Assistant,and at the present time I do not have one. My actual travelling expenses for last year amounted to $1,841.25, which involved a trip to Victoria, British Columiia,to attend the Ministers' Meeting, Ministers responsible for motor vehicle registration. I had to stop 4457

May 25, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 733 NC - 9 MR. STARKES: at Montreal for the Canadian Good Roads Association Meeting and the World Highway Conference. Also a trip to Ottawa to confer with H:lnisters and offi.~ials of ,;,:he Federal _;1..,ver.m1em .. and ·;;lit- lH1la!1c- ':;y rr,;;:Lt<. _:,J various inspection trips around the Island. Under General Administration you will find the salaries are approximately the same as last year. Under Motor Vehicle Registration, we decided last year to introduce a multi-year plate and affect a savings. This year validation stickers were issued. This is done, Mr.

Chairman. in no less than six provinces of Canada and twenty-five States of the United States of America~ That is the type we are using. There has been some criticism regarding these stickers but I can assure the Committee that the material from which they are made is the same as is used in other provinces and in the States, in many instances. It is so designed that it is practically impossible to remove them in one piece. The only way to get a sticker off is to take it off in about a million pieces.

We have had very few complaints, suprisingly few,about fourteen or fifteen complaints that people had lost their stickers before they put them on and only three or four stickers being removed, 1'his is only very slightly more than the incidents of lost licence plates in previous years •• We have had a somewhat trying time with this Division, due to the unfortunate illness of the Registrar,but matters are being cleared up and everything is going along very good at this time. Under Maintenance of Road and Bridges, it should be noted that there is a small decrease in the Vote.

This saving is ~ffected or will be affected because there will be slightly less maintenance this year due to upgrading and paving, etc. When a road is being rebuilt or paved there is very little maintenance required during the following year and the contractors are responsibility for maintenance of the road during the construction period,and we will be able to effect some saving in this area. Winter Maintenance - the same thing applies. We anticipate ·a vast 4458

May 25, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 733 NC - 10 MR. STARKES: improvement will be effected during the present year~ We are going to be able to make a considerable saving in snow clearing by using four wheel grader, four wheel truck plows on paved sections~ They are much faster and can do a very good job 4459

Tape 734 (afternoon_) PF. - 1 "tR. STAP.KfS: and ½y usin?, front-end loaders rather than a dozer on some of the reconstruction of hi?:hvmys. This way ~-m will he a"ble to affect n. considerable savinf' over past years, I l 0 ave a confession to make , 7 owe the hon. me,.,her for St.

John's l<'est, I do not know 5.f it is five cents, five dollars or $5,001), I thinl:. it was five dollars. last year he het me five CTollars that I would not live Pithin the 1imipet and due to the except:tonal heavy snowfall last year)partlcuJnrly north~ we could not quite live rithin the amount allocated, but we came close to it, relatively close to it. But in the meantime J. owe hilTI five dollars. I uill have to t'lal-e a private arranr.ement uith the Bank to rret a loan so thnt T can pay hi.n 1;3;c1:. Tt ui] 1 be interesting, t~r. Chaiumn 1 1 'R.

CPO:=BTB · !nnudib le. ~----- --- "-ff'~2JA~tzr:S; Twill f'AY it hack over a five year plan. '"e had an extremely had senson this nast winter,insofar as snowfall is concernerl. In St. John 1s i.t Pas nnt too had, hut we had enourh, 17-2 inches. In ft. ;\nthonv 167 it"ches. Tn fleer take ]l}f, inche~, anil in L<'!.hrador :::0uth 284 inches, about tP0nty-ftve feet of snow. !'~ow it is quite a rlifferencP in the 122 inches t1~nt fe]l in St. John's compared to the 284 inches i.n Labrador f'outh. In ~t.

John• s we g.ct twelve inches of snow today nnrl you ~rnuld r:ct a half inch oF rain tomorrow and that is p:one, but in La'hrador South you pe.t prettv Hell continuous cold Heather, so whnt comes down stays there. ~owe had -pretty well twenty-five feet of snow in Labrador South. Since the road uas first ploup,hed in winter, we had no g-reat difficulty in keeping the road open during most of the winter, until this season. If He had been ahle to have tldce the equipment in Labrador South this year, I have heen told by people who know, it would ha've been still impossible to keep the road open.

We had included sayo a very old machine in Labrador South. HJ'.. S~!ALLWOOD: Did you have a snowblower? 4460

Tane 734 (afternoon) up. STARKES: Yes. Pe had a snowhlower, ves. In fact we send down a second one. then we had two down there. Pe hnd an 1946 P-7 Cat, t..•hich people satd wns a very old machine, obBolete and coulr 1 not he usecl and so on. 11ov this Fllf6 Catapiller dozer) I can assure, sm: fAr more service thnn the 196'1 grader y1e had dmm there. VP. S:'rALLPODD: Inaudihle. ---- "'!R.

SI~~FS: Practically nothing left but the fly wheel,, If you notice our allocation each vear for maintenance of eriuinwent, vou v:111 realize that our equipment is kept in good shape and this is whv Pe cou] d use the equipment year after ;?ear. I wouJ d say prohah lv the fly wheel of the motor is oririnal eouiprnent. But that dozer is i.n ~ood shape and gave far hetter service than the 1969 rrader r,lough ,.,e had down there. That rrader plough was order esnecially for Labrador South I for heavy snow conditions, a four wheel drive machine~ hut that too ,;tave out. It had more do~,m times than the 1946 dozer.

I was interestinp, to note, !-fr. Chairman, that we spent around ~1?.S~onn in the District of Labrador South,on snowclearin~ during t'be past yP.ar. and if you ar,ply that to the cost per mi.le across t-!ewfound] and. if we had to spend the same ar,,ount, it would he soFiethinp: in thP ol'."de.r of over Sl2 million or $15 Million.

So we dld not have to ne~lect Labrador South. i..t was ahtrnlute.lv due to the conditions that e,dsted, We harl continuously driftinrwhere you have ten or fifteen foot cuts of snoP. and you plou~h the roRd that day and you go hack the next mornin~ and it is filled in, there is another ten feet, and if we could have had nlowed it every morning, Pe. 110uld have had to ploup;h ahout 600 feet of sno1-1 off that road to keen it clear. ~fr.

Chairman, in relation to the item for improvement and reconstruction~ I came in for some servere criticism last year, because I had announced a programme, a roads programme, a two year pror:ramme~ /1. pro~ramme which some people Said. particularly one person t•."ho is not in the House now. who has since resi,rmed ,made consideral-,le sarcastic remarh; ahout it., 4461

Tape 734 (afternoon) pyr - 3 MR. f:TAR.KrF · tte sairl that we Pere poinrr to pave rivers, ,ind T 'relieve the hon. Leader of the flpposi tion said a sinilar thin?. Fowe,,er 1 I am very happy to be ahle to say that over half of that progr2rr;e has 'h<'~n ca::--..-1~:d out, as well as several additional projects that uere announced nt the tinie. This yenr T announced a programme of new constrction for ]fl 71, t\.., rror:ramme of reconstruction and pavinr, for 1971-72 7 hridrc construction for 1071 an<l pavi~~ for 1?71. Again, I met with what t vou}d like to call pood natured livinr.:.

I suripns0 heinP aPainst h:i_r>!:p.:1v construction or i.IT'prover,ent is nroha'hlv like heinr­ nrainst r,otherhood, so T tvould liire to call it mild cri ti c1sm or pood nrttur(tl livinr,, because. of the magnitude of the proframn,e. The prorramme is a hir. one, hut the overall fip.ures show that it 1s a nropramme ve can carry out. If you Fill tal~e a look at the estimates, you Fill noti.ce that :J.n total they at'lount to ahout ~?. million more than last yenr.

Last yPar we spent $10 million on the Trans-Cana<la Highway, whi.c'r Pe are not p:oing to have to do this year. :·iy estimates shop that we have ahout $32. rriilli.on to be snent on roads ,outside of the n~FE areas and not including the Trans-Canada Hi.,r.-~Pay. Finally, !fr. Chairman, we have a small increase in the rrant to the ~afety Council thi.s year. I am sorry it is not greater, hut I am sure it will tie a help. They are doing a good job and I wish them every success. Now, •rr.

ChaiIT"lan, I have not given a list of pro.1ects underw·ay at thjs time, nor the nrojects proposed,as the latter list is readily available. If hon. menbers have any questions, I shall hP- most ?appy to try and nive the answers. MR.~1Jp.PHY: r1r. Chairman, just a few general remarks on the minister's department itself. rossihly the first one comes to m:J,nd and I do not think it can he discussed in the estimates because it is an Anpropriation­ in-Aid~is this famous arterial road that the Premier and the hon. member for St. John's South straightened up the day before yesterday. 4462

lfay 25th. 1971 Tape 734 (afternoon) "'ffi._ ?-fl:TRPl!Y_:_ There are just a few questions that enter rrv r-,ind on it.

This ts~as planned I presume l'>y the Provincial Government • We are using T<'ederal Funds, The nlnns were set out by the Provincial GtwPrr1tr!ent. -r p~qsume that to the knowledge of al1 the Cabinet, the rnewr'er for the district.that this road runs through, the plan was to core off the Trans-r:anada F:lr,;hvay <lmm to '!'fount Pearl area and across the Southside Hill, Then, T. thini: there was a firure of somethinr,: li1-·e :n2 mfllion stated for a four lane hip:hway,which I think Ottawa objected to and said it was too hir.h and T think we cut it back to about S7 million or $9 million, I am just speaking as I have heard and 1 Pould just like the ~inister to explain some of this to me.

One question T do want to ask; has any expropriation 1,efnr made on the east s1 de of the Kilbride Road, in other words. on tf'e ~onthsi<le I!ill the western part of the Southside H.illr Have n~potiations been entered into for any property on the Southside Hill, cominr <lown the Waterford Valley( 'Jhese plans I say were approved by Government. Fe had this fanous political farce in the nom'le here the other day, where the petition was presented by my hon~ friend from ~t.

Johnfs ~outh, a very well ·enpineered m~travaganza again, and we have h<H1 loud claps from this side of the Pause and I heard they were nresented with photof!raohs and they sat,over here so as they could see the !'remier:, all this was set up very nicely. Rut then the Premier undertook ,with the hon. men:ber, they Fere r;oinr to ri,e:ht this r,reat ~,rronp tl,at someone had done the residents of the Southside.

Now there t-ias no guilt admitted by anybody. 80 I w:U.l ask the minister, perhaps vhen he ,r-ets a chance, when he speaks in rerly to any other questi:ons, who drew these plans~ was it this Government here. was it the Federal Government, th~ Government of Norway, or rermany or some othe.r one perpetrated this rreat deed on the people of the Southside? There must be someone. Apparently the Governnent were qu:1.te upset and incensed Pith what could have happened 4463

·•ny 25. 1071 Tape 734 (afternoon) "?_•~~~~..:- to tliese o•onrlertul nrwnle. r_•e l~neF t1-ier nl 1 l,,v ra:rf', thev T•'ere. a]J nnr'ed off ;;_nri th:Ls tyne nf tliinf', I t-'ould  ust 1ii:e tn 1Qrrr vi-;o nJanT'P.0 this~ V!nc: 1t nur o·vn l'ip.:Jy,~.qys l1P-!"artf"ent or P"'S it the T"prlprn1 r:overnrent or just •:1,n it VA.s? 'T'hcre is one rither Matter that strih>.s ne .• Sir anrl T c;.rie:il-- nf it ,...enP.raUy an<l that --! f; uhr>rr> constrnction i.s ta!~inf' rilr1cp anr' ,. rPfer t0 the Tinrin Peninsuln Fio-hPay an<l also Honav:i.sta 1 ']::,';v;;v v>hl?rP there i.c: ~ lot of •••ork f,"OiPp: on.

Tf it is not nnssihlc for t'.1e Minister to t?:mp11nsize, •tith fl1.P-Rf' con.i:;truction corrinanies, th:it they le;;ve nt 1P.<rnt onP wnv ,,assable, rdti; a r-rader oneratinp continuously, in,:;tear4 of tat·inr off" on ri six 0r sevPn 0r eieht rriilP stretch.throPinrr rocks and stone"' an<l houldf':rs nver their shoulders, hither anrl yonri, vou just Pot to drive tMrouvh tl-err as i..,est vou can. I exoerienced that four weeks ap:o. going- to .rlcnavista~ uith these rreat Btones. Hher~ one of the hovs h;id tT,•O ho] Pc: driven in liis P-as tank. ":riv PhD i5 re,c;nonsible?

C:an thts r,uv sue the constrnr-tion company or sue thr- l'ir,h-pavs Pepartment for this? necause :it Pas nureJy nePlir,ence, ·9here thev junt po al1ead nnd nlourh throuPh with n hullrlozer and throw ·every thin{" across the roncl. I h;ive snok.Pn on th 1"' ~l""any occasion,;, that this should h~ compulsory) that there he a Prader ::tttached to these truckP and l:eer: at Jen.st half the road passahle for traffic. to drive throur;h. There is another ouest:f.on, and I do not Ynow if ue ever had the in:fiormation - Norris Atm nv Pnss: I vouJ.d like to know what that cost the neonle of ?fopfoundland?

The road was completed ahout tt·o or three years and then thev dedde, and I thinl:, it was fourteen or fifteen miles to build a completely new road, within two or three years ,to h,.mass Norri~ Arm. I know it must have cost many hundreds of thousands, i-f not soF1e millions of dollars for that 'rypass. These are three thinp;s that occur to me~ and there are other items that possibly will. Put tlie arterial rond, I th:fnk, 1:f the hon. minister could tell us all about it and uho Perpetrated 4464

1..1ay 25, 1971 Tape 73!, (afternoon) 1 ·m ·-2.:!TRPHY • this f!reat deal on the people of the Southside 1 that the Premier and the hon. mern.ber for St. John's South are doinp their best tci rectify now. PK - ,; HR. STARKES: l"1r. Chairman, I am not foinp to tcy and explain all the iIPplications of DTmE. But. peneral1y speakinp: )the situation is)as T see it, from the heFinninp we are asked to provide a list of road work needinP attention. We uresented a list of maybe around $20f1 million or $30() milllon worth of road work that needed attention.

Eventually ue vere asked for information on certnin specific roadstin certa:in areas. This information we passed along. He nroviderl the answers. Fe ·uere final] y Rf:lked to put up a case as to why there was an necessity for buildin(" thiR specific road, an<l so on? He did that. Then we received word to r:o ahead with the road or not to ro ahead. Having received the rro-ahead, the plans of course had to '½e approved 1--y the liasion committee. tenders called. The re~ult,studied hy the 1:i.aison committee and approved hy ther,. then we were told to go ahead with the contract over vihich ve will have supervision.

Insofar as the particular road in ouestion uas concerned, Pe enp;agerl a firm of consultants to design the road. They d:i d the first section; this is the

section from the Trans-Canada)in so roanv tniles~ They are presently Porldnp on the secon<l section. V0 .asJ,-ed tlier to coP1e un with what they firure the ideal routf', They studied cf'rtaJn plans, and they came up vith that route. It ,,:as a decision, well. we will nClt tal:e responsihil ity but it is not my decision or committee C.ecision, it was hased on pure lo~dc insofar as the consultants saw it. They have - :'ffi~ ~nm.PJ!Y· Without the approval of r.overnment on itJ' In other Pords; any1Jody can come out and say put the road here. "'fP. f:'T'J\RfT~: T,et me explain. MP 'fl.fP.PnY • Pell. okay. PR.

STARY.Rf:· Ti-i.e very fact that this time we can still cf":anre - it is not too late to change. This is the route that the consultnnt fJrmred Pns the best route and T think it is the route that probah]y enpineers tn rriy department Fou]d say is the economical route. tt is not a cut anc1 dried 4465

Tape 71/1 (afternoon) <>.rrL STARKt:~ • affair. There will 1,e no work done on that portion of the road this year it Fill he late next year hefore it can be done. :,fR. -~TAJ?KFS · This will he from some point west of Road Delux~ the contract ·will end beyond Road Deluxe on this enC ,the east end of the road. _:J:here will be no actual work undertaken ,in anv event, in JfJ71. ~"'R_._J_1~PHY: \.l-1hat ahout expropriation,have any deals been T'1<tde? 1 .rR~_§~TARKES: He !1ave purchase, some land. I do not think there Fas any expropriation whatever.

Pe have purchase some land vest of Pead Deluxe. i,rp '::.'[!_RfHY: m,at ahout the Southside Hill area, V:fJhr1de East area? ?-1'F. f:TAPKES~ I do not think so. I know we have not expropriated any. ,rp. "ffJRPHV • 7'fo deals made? I agree with the hon. the Leader of the Opposition,in that contractors leave someth:lnp to 1-,e desired when they are constructinr: roads.

Pe are torn hetween rnaki.np. them enforce the rerulations, you wou]d say, with their employees, hy insisting that they would grade this. they will bulldoze t½is, but all this hinders actual propress of the roads and we try to strike a happjr mcdiurn,and they are actually responsihle for maintenance the road whilst under contract, but there again, we have to draw a line somewhere. He try to maintain a balance. I ag:ree with yoµ that nuite often the road is in a terrible mess. HR. 1 :yj?PHY_.:_ The nurin Peninsula 'Road is scandalous • .._rp.

STARKES: On tte 1.Jorth Arm Bypass, if the hon. the Leader of the npposi tion -will recall, I think it was he who placerl a question on the nrder Paper last year 1 and it was answered to the exact cost of that road. tAR~__f_~OSBIE ~ This St. John's arterial road. the proposed arterial road that is going to come into St. ~Tohn' s, this sounds like it is going to be a verv expensive proposition. T. think the contract that is let now ts 4466

''ay 25th. 1971 Tape 734 (afternoon) PK - F\ Mp CROSBIF· .S7 .1 rii]1ion,rou!7lily. to \fcNamara r:onstruction. But J would venture to guess that from where that contract enrls until you pet into the city, you knovr the part that WilF in dispute, ccminp. down the Southside Fills)for exnmp]p_ that

part is r,oinr to be more expensive than the $7 .. 3 million. As I understand it, the Provincial r.overnment has to acquire the lcmd There is no contribution from Ottawa on the cost of acoutrinr the land. The minister c~n correct me, if I am wronp.. I think that is rip.ht. So if this road docs not go across the Southside Eills 1 ,1here it was p:oinf to PO, or on the sirle of the hill, and uhere we all arree0 it would he better for it not to go, if it does not p.:o there and hns to go somewhere e]sP., Very likely it is goin.r: to he a very expensive nroposition to ncauire the land.

The cost of the ]and is our cost. T unC.erstnnd further that the Government have purchased property on 11aterford Tiridr:e. for example, Mr. 'forphy 1 s nroperty. land and a larpe horne there thnt was O'Hned or is or 1-ras mm hy ~rr. ''urphy, i1ho userl to or-m the te]enhone cnr.:nany, '!r, ri.J. ?'urnhy, that vas hein? purchase hy the Governr,c11t. t do not 1-nm-! hoP the route affects his house on Paterford Rridpe. 1 clo not know I It is on the southsi<le of Paterford BriclP-e Poad.

T have since heard that the Government Js not mow· roinr- to tear rlown that house, it Js going- to he r:enterl to sore hip:h-rankinp civil Rervant. T do not !,·nou j_f there :is any truth i.n that or not. If the rrinister rio;ht jm,t let us know Phy that ororerty was purchased, and is it ~oinr, to he rented nov, instead of tP.inr rP.~ovecl? 1\nd, a:hrn, if they rlo not f,o alon,t" the Soutl~side 1'111.

Phich aµpears they vi.11 not. the Prel't'lier has supf-;ested roing dm-m Waterford tiiver, n.nci I do not knoF whether that ts possible or not. nut, if it does not either r-o dovn r.'aterfor<l n:tver or alonP: tr:e Southside Poac!, we1J then the only other place for it to go s::-rould he dm-m T,ia_terfor<t Tiridre Paad. on the other side of the Waterford Bridge noarl, which will be verv expensive l-.iecause of the nroperty involved. So has the r:dnister p:ot nny fip:ures on all these nossihilittes at all'? Phen the consultants looked at t'bis 4457

'lav 25th. 1071 Tape 7111 (afternoon) :~_. CPOSEIF · route ori?inalJy. they apparently recornnenderl th;,.t :i.t cone down hehincl the :Southside Poad there. The_y must have had recn;rrrr'en~t?d thnt as the cheaoe~t course. Thev must hnve said that you can come do1,m ifaterford Fiver or that you can come down Waterford Tiridn:e Poad. Rut for various reasons it is more desirahle to come down the i:::outhside 'R.oad, prel':lunahly it js cheaper. rould the minister p-ive us some idea what kind of figures are being discussed here.

TB it '!>4 mi.1 lion or ~'1 rd 1lion if vou f'O Southside Poad, perhaps SB Million or $10 million, if you ,zo down the Waterford J?fver? l1hat are the rossihilities involved here? Then again, of course, the Federal r-overnf'lent I think~ put up the morJ~v for the rest of them. I think they are Payinr: all the money 1 are they not, except for the cost of the: land? They have also J?:Ot to he consulted in that. Could the minister just comment on those couple of points. HR. SF ALLWOOD~ Perhaps !•fr.

Chairman. the hon. gentleman ~-;-ould be satisfier!, for the noment, if I Pere to comment on it and then he rrdp.ht still ask the 'ffnister of Hi.rhways to do so. I came dot-m over that route the other day, hy hell.copter, and we rot down by the Lonf! nril'ip:e and turned around and went Straight up apain to a mile west of Bowring Park. T had with !Tle ,in addition to the ~1inister of Economic Development, w·ho renresents that district in this Hou.se, the enf!:ineer who is 1 thin 1:, in charge of the whole pro.iect.

Ee is a ~cot who has 1,een here, 1 thin!-·. six or eig-ht montt:s and he is employed hy the company who is doinp. the joh. I do not even lrnm,1 the name of the coTP_pany. t!R. STARKES· FENC/l. ---·--- ~,fR. SHALLHOOD: FFNCO ,that is Foundation Company of Canada- they are an en1,?ineering branch. He is a very hr:illiant, I would 17uess. a verv 1->rilliant engineer.

It was the first time~ I think, he was in a he] icopter and he was tremendously pleased by this trip cominR down because it was the first time he saw the thing himself, which made me wonder whv he had not previously used a helicopter for the purpose, hecause it is the obvious 4468

,ray 25, 1971 Tape 734 (afternoon) T'K - Jl) "-fP.

S~'!\J~I:Yr!:1~ way to take rt lonk·, in fact I cannot irnaFine any other vay of do:i.nr- it. i1ow I knor 1 before there uere helicontPrs. hefore there were aircraft. you had to r-) Hithout thcri, hut nr1w that there helicopters. whv you could not use one to lay out the route anrl to find the hest route to folloP is l."lore than 1 can unrlerstant1. 'Iot-1 let TTte c;ay this~ If you cone alon? the Trnns-<:anada 11:J5rhPav ancl you co~e to the: point Phere thi.s nen road takes off fror1 the Trans­ Canada Hirrhvff'l and you follow that road a]ong as far as they have the right-of-Hay cut over, that is a fair distance, it nmst he three, four or five miles, they havp now the right-of-way cut.

Tt is very wide. Tt must he close to a quarter of a mi]e t 1frle, is it not? Tt is a treriendous width, where thev have cut the right-of-v:ay. Then that hri.ncs you clown where you are cn~i.nr dm,n tn behind uount T'earl-C:lendale and closer over to the Olrl Pettv Parroour Road nnd th@. :=:outhern ~'.lore TToad. You cor,,e on down through until you hit uount Pearl r"oad. You are a little '-'it tn the rirrht of the ,rount Pearl T'oad, goinr tnto the '--fount rear) ttire1es.c; Station. 1 used to have n shaclr in there years A.f?O.

Where rrv shn.c1r ·i:-ras, the neP road roes strai.r:ht across the new shncJ., ~ T hasten to add: it is a >1ood Plfln" ye;irs since I mm the shack, thirty years. so 1 do not share in the enhanced value of the land, As a matter of fact, I ,1as rrreatJy inte.resterl to discover three or four vears ap0 thnt r:iy friend. 11r. lfichaeJ Power ov.rns it and ,,·as the ovmer of it and occupying my sumner shnd~, and it was his sunmer shack. ""!ow it is gone because that road goes str::i.irht across over on top of that summer shack uow.

So it finds itself down qpproxirnate,v to Bowrinp: Park and no trouble, no difficulty, hecause for the most

part it is ?Oinr, throunh crown land or privately owned land that is ePJptv and has nothing built on it. A~ PON. }tE'fREP· It roes through fann land. "'ffi. S!'ALLHOOD: Well it goes through a fnrrn area, which is a sad aspect, rt is sad ,in any part of the world, when farmland disappears and is used up f'v 4469

'<ay 25, 1971 Tape 734 (afternoon) PF - U 1·'f"R. ~HALLWOOD· factories. roads and airports and what have vau. lt is all the more sad in Newfoundland, because we have so littJe farmland. rm.•ever, from the standnoint of disturbance the road is straight sailing from the Trans-Canada down a distance of six, eir,ht or nine miles, whatever it is,until you ~et to about t!aterford Bridge, ·Just hefore you come to Waterford Tiridp;e. ~!ow there is where the trouble starts, becausP you have rot two roads running parallel, separated hy a river, the Waterford Rridr;e Road,as the hon. memher iust mentioned am1 4470

May 25, 1971 Tape no. 735 page 1 - MRW Mr. Smallwood. as you are coming down now, coming eastward on your left is the Waterford Bridge Road. From there you look and see the road going right on down to the Crossroads. Then you see Water Street West. To your right you see the Southside Road,going right on down. Yau can see them both right in front of you. Yau are up in the air now in a helicopter and you are looking down with these roads ahead of you and the river running down between. You see the enormous amount of houses that there are on the Waterford Bridge Road,and expensive houses and very high class houses.

On the Southside Road you see some beautiful houses as well but not quite so high-classed, not quite so expensive and some are a bit on the poor side. There they are,the two rows of houses, the two rows. The river is in between them. If you followed Wateford Bridge Road it would cost you the Bank of England. If you go down the Southside Road, it would be almost as expensive and even more unsatisfactory. If you follow either of the two roads - you have to build a new road. Whatever you do you bave to build a new road anyhow. Where will you build it? What they planned to do was to go to the right.

Now we are coming east, we are coming east in a helicopter and we come out through Kilbride, Bowring Park and here is Waterford Bridget on the left Waterford Bridge Road and on the right Southside Road. Go to the right of the Southside Road, up on the side of the hill and go right dowo the side of the Southside Hilll There are two troubles about that. One is that if you build a road, you know, 50 feet, 100 feet, 200 feet up the side of the hill,right down the side of that hill.above the houses that are there, inevitably,just as surely as night follows the day, the houses down below are in danger.

They will be put in danger. I lived in those for years and I know what I am talking about. If I had a dollar for every time I climbed up the Southside Hill to get a load of fire wood or every time I wanted to pick some berries,as a young fellow, if I had a dollar for every time,! could pay off 4471

May 25, 1971 Tape no. 732 Page 2 Mr. Smallwood. the public debt. No I could not. I could pay the interest on the public debt. So I know that territory intimately. I know it inside out - inside out. I did not know though that my hon. friend and colleague.the Minister of Economic Development,was living in there. just a bit in beyond where I lived and a little farther up the side of the hill. I did not know that until he became my colleague. Two famous men came out of that,as the petition said. The petition remarked the two distinguished Newfoundlanders that came out of that area, my hon. friend and me.

If we never had anything else in common, we have that. MR. CROSBIE: Do not turn your back on Gambo. Do not turn your back on Gambo. MR. SMALLWOOD: I am not turning my back on Gambo nor is GaF.~O turning its back on me,which is even more important. That is even more importants Now if you build that road along the side of the Southside Hill, there is nothing that is going to st(pthe houses down below from getting damaged. There would be land­ slides. There would be waterslides.

Unless now you build a tremendous wall to stop it (A wall almost like the great wall of China) on the lower side of the road,to keep the land, the rocks and the boulders from sliding down. How much would that cost? When we flew down and we got down by Bowrings, Southside, down below the Long Bridge, I said; "turn around. Turn around and let us go up and follow the bed of the river~ 11 He said, 11 all right. 11 Then I tapped the engineer~ I was sitting up in the co-pilots seat, because when I am not pilot I am always co-pilot 1 at least I am co-pilot when I am not pilot. I am not like the hon.

I want to be nice today. I do not want to get him riled up. Anyway the point is that when I am not pilot, I am a co-pilot. I tapped the engineer on the shoulder and I said; 11now watch, just watch! 11 They turned the helicopter around and we went on up, right up, followed up the bed of Waterford River. When he had got up to about - well we came to the crossroads there by what use to be Brownings Bridge, Brownings Bakery. Many a time I swam in that. They had a little dam there. There used to be a dam there~ The river is polluted there now, yes~ They used the water 4472

lay 15, 1971 Tape no. 735 Page 3 Mr o Smallwood. from that dam to drive the water wheel. They used to drive Ilrownings Bakery with a water wheel. I have seen it a million times~ We came up over that and then we came to Simms Bridge, then we came to St~ John's Bridge, then we came to Waterford Bridget. I knew every inch of it. I had walked it back and forth to work when I was a reporter on the 11 Evening Telegram~' I lived in on the Southside and how many times did I walk to the 11Evening Telegram 11 office and back, every day, each way$ I knew every inch of it.

It was like old times, except I used not to do it by helicopter in the old times. Now that I am a big shot I can do it by helicopter. When we got up beyond Waterford Bridge and up over Bowring Park, I said to the engineer; 11 what do you think of it?" He said; 11build your road right on top of the water, right in the river bed, let the water run underneath. You can put the big pipes, rows of pipes, big ones, forty-eight inches or something, four or five of these, even in the spring it can carry the run-off,and build you road right over the bed. You do not have to buy and inch of it.

You do not have to spend one dollar to buy one inch of land." Now the trouble would be that when you get down by the Long Bridge, before you come to the Long Bridge,you have then to get across on to Water Street. No--w how would you get across? You would get across by going behind Newfoundland Light and Power Company Building and the old Royal Bank Building up there. Do you know those buildings up there? It is just west of Hickman's. MR. MURPHY: How would you get through the railway yard? MR. SMALLWOOD: Of there is no difficulty there. There is no great difficulty there.

Mind you it is not easy but it is not impossible. You would come down by what we used to call the trustle - not the trestle. You would come down by the trustle and you would come over the land that has been reclaimed. You would come diagonally to the south of the railway station building, south of that~between the south east corner of the railway building and the north west corner of the Round House. Can you picture that? You go right through, either behind the Newfoundland Light and Power Building and the Royal Bank Building and emerge on 4473

May 25, 1971 Mr. Smallwood. Tape no. 73:l to Water Street,somewhere near the foot of Springdale Street. Page 4 Now whether you come down the Southside and get on to Water Street that way or come down the bed of the river and get on to Water Street that way, it is not easy. It can be done. It is easier to do if you come down the bank of the river, not the bank, the body~ It would be easier to build it right on top of the river. Amazingly, the river is pretty straight. From Waterford Bridge to the trestle or the trustle ( I fell over that one time and the man always claims,until he dies, that he saved my life.

I know he should have been shot • I know that. I know I did fall overboard into the water as a boy¼ He climbed down around the bank and he fished me out. I do not think I was in a bit of danger) it is almost a straight line. It is amazing. It would be one of the straightest stretches of road that we have~ There is the river~ We own it~ We do not have to buy it. So let us build the road right down on top of that river. Close in or cover in the river. You cannot block it off because the water would back up and you would swamp the church there by Waterford. It is Monsi~or Rawlins 1 church. What do you call it?

It is called ncorpus Christi'1, and also St. Bride's College, Jou would swamp all of that. You have to let the water through, So,you can let it through underneath the road. Why not? Now I have asked the engineers to make a study of it~ They are going to do that. They will inform my hon. friend, the Minister of Highways jand if that is the way to do it, that is the way that it will be done. MR. EARLE: Mr. Chairman, I have a couple of questions on another matter that I would like to ask the hon~ minister.

In connection with work bei~g done on the Burin Highway and other areas, the control over the contractors in doing these jobs;the minister said,is very difficult to get them ta co-operate sometimes in keeping the old roads up. There is another problem which arises. I wonder if he can answer this one? A lot of little access roads on the sides of these main highways disapear. In certain areas you find the contractors very co-operative in connecting these up~because they are used by the local people for woods work and getting to farms and various things. Other contractors, doing 4474

May 25, 1971 'fape no. 735 Page 5 Mr. Earle. different jobs,are not at all co-operative. You find a stretch of road very well connected up with these side roads. You find other stretches that are not connected up at all. I have experienced a lot of complaints from a lot of people along different sections of the road 1where a road which they had access to before or country which they had access to before is not almost barred off. This new road construction is generally quite elevated, high ditches and this sort of thing. They cannot get off the road very easily.

I am wondering if the minister could let us know real~y what the department's policy iA in that sort of thing, if they do have to provide access to these farm roads and so on from the main highroad. Another thing which I should like him to advise us about is the programme for this year. There has been a programme,of mnny small jobs and menial jobs and so on,announced for all over the Province. I questioned.looking at the votes under the different departmentsJ as to just how these could be handled? We are now approaching the first of June. There are little jobs all over the Province which have to be started up.

To begin with, the Highroads own equipment which is scattered all over the place in small pockets. When they put them on to these jobs, the various jobs 1 fn,·ariably the local roads have to be neglected because there is too much to be done~ This year, of all years, I suppose Where there is an election coming up, there are so many of these jobs promised that they will all be attempted at the same time. It is practically the first of June.

How on earth they can organize this equipment to do all these jobs at the same time, I do not know, particularly in view of the fact that much of the equipment is very old and very worn out. We heard the other day about a twenty-six year old tractor. I know jobs which have been done in my area and have been done very often with drills which should be museum pieces. They have used out their usefulness over a time, they are always breaking down, they are costing a lot more than they should. You have gangs of men on there and they are waiting for equipment to be repaired and all this sort of stuff.

Apart from slowing up the work,the cost of it is simply tremendous. Now if this programme is to be accelerated this year without a lot of new equipment, I do not see how all these various jobs are going 44 75

May 25, 1971 Tape no. 735 ~ Page 6 Mr. Earle. to be tackled. I notice in the vote for new equipment that there is about $900,000 provided~ There seems to me, with the present condition and state of a lot of this equipment scattered around the country, that $900,000 is not going to go very far in nr-ov'idlit:c the necessary machinery to do these jobs 1 particularly in the light of the fact that I also notice that the summer maintenance and the winter maintenance on equipment has been cut down • lt is not very much but it has been cut down. It has been cut down by $100,000 or so in each case.

Apparently the department is anticipating less expenditure on maintenance of equipment. They are providing or going to provide about $900,000 for new equipment~ They have taken on nml$rous small jobs, meanial jobs all over the place. I am wondering if the minister could give the House some idea of how he is going to programme this, of how he is going to make it work? The year is getting quite late. We are getting into June now~ While there is some evidence of things getting started, it really has not gotten underway.

Now there is another point in that connection,that this House voted $100 million approximately on Interim Supply,which was approximately three to four months supply for the Government. So the Opposition did not hold up any funds. The funds were being provided to start the job early and to get underway with it$ There has not been any - certainly the Government have not run out of money,up to this point,because we voted $100 million. I am wondering 1 if all of it worked as planned, why did they not get underway with it a lot earlier than they had? On the St.

John's arterial road, I am not an engineer so I am not really qualified to criticize but I think that the Premier's statement about his helicopter cruise up and down the valley, although we own the river and there is free access to it, may turn out to be just as free now as the Expo pavillions~ Speaking to some engineers; however that job is tackled whether it is by an elevated road or a covering in of the river bed or tremendous re~aining walls to keep up the Southside Hill 1 so whatever may be done this job is invariably going to cost many, many millions more than have been calculated at the present time.

I think the minister let the cat out of the bag this 4476

May 25, 1971 Tape no. 735 Mr. Earle~ afternoon when he said no work could be done probably for a year and a half on that or a year at least.

So~although the promise is the're and Page 7 the people in the galleries were very delighted the other day to get their announcements about what would happen to the road, this;in WJ opinion, is only camouflage, because when the road actually has to be done and the cost of engineering figures are revealed, there may well be some hesitation on the part of DREE or OttawaJwhoever is going to provide the funds to meet this exorbitant cost~ I do not think that anybody at this stage a the Government. or otherwise, are able to tell the people of that area just what is going to be done or that the road should be done in a different way.

The facts have not yet been revealed* I do not think the studies have been made and I am sure that the engineering work is not done. So this may well be a tremendous question mark before it evolves. This certainly is not the time to raise people's spirits or hopes that certain things will not be done and that the road instead of coming down the hill will come dm."n the valley or go other ways. I think,quite candidly 1 that nobody at this stage quite knows what they are talking about.

Until it is studied and developed and drawn and so an and all the figures revealed, I think we are only talking a lot of hot air. :t-m.. G. MYRDEN: Hr~ Chairman, before the minister stands up, I have just a few words to say. It is something very strange in the House today. I would like for the minister to pass my thanks along to the staff that are now looking after the St. Barbe South District. We have been most proud over there ,actually 1 in the last few years because the staff that we have in the St. Barbe South District is one of the finest construction staffs that we have ever had.

Right now I believe that they are upgrading the road in Woody Point and getting it reddy for pavement. I know they are doing a good job. I would also like to say that.over the years I, myself, personally,have had great satisfaction in dealing with some 6fthe men and especially Mr. E. J. Butler 1 who has recently retired. This man I know has been a dedicated Civil Servant for years and I am sure that the whole House would aaree with me that he has done a tremendous job 4477

May 25, 1971 Tape no. 735 Page 8 Mr. Myrden in Western Newfoundland~ I know the former Minister of Highways in Western Newfoundland. Being a former salesman of caterpillar equipment I find it very interesting when you are calking about the age of equipment. For the House 1 s information, the first caterpillar tractor every built is still operating, which was in 1905. A 1946 tractor}kept in good condition.is much better than the new equipment being put out today on assewbly lines. It was one of the finest tractors. I think I know it was the one.

I was probably instrumental in helping to sell it~ But caterpillar equipment has a world famous name. It is not the equipment, it is the actual maintenance of the equipment~ I know for a fact that probably that 1946 tractor kept most of that road opened this year. New equipment has every chance of failing. Would the minister also advise us about the safety councils latest recommendations 1 I know over our way we are still finding out that the"slow-traffic use right lane 11 business is still being used by the fast traffic going inside.

I know ourselves,we for years wanted to try and change that sign to"keep right except to pass.'1 We have never been able to find out exactly why it has not been changed. Also,driving down the Humber Valley the other day, two or three of us noticed that the whole valley now,where the new construction has gone through, they have sort of defaced aj.l the shoulders and where grass was formerly grown all dol.1Il through the Humber Valley, there area great deal of open pits where contractors have been going through South Brook, etc.

We wondered then whether it could not be put into the contract to replace these pits, replace these sides there where there people have been going through with their construction equipment? It looks very, very bare now because the whole Humber Valley actually is very, very sandy soil and very seldom does grass ever grow back on it again. Now especially in South Brook - there in South Brook proper there 4478

May 25, 197! Tape no. 735 Page 9 Mr Myrden .. are acres of it, where they were using it, where the contractors were using it and just left the open pits. Right in the to-..m itself there has been no, actual smoothing out of humps or cutting down shoulders or anything like this~ This acutally could be a for many hundreds of students, if the Government saw fit to do it~ They do in New Brunswick and Nova~Scotia. They have started programmes of seeding and sodding right through the whole of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. There is very little equipment used and a great deal of manpower usage. Also, Mr.

Chairman, I would like for the minister to bring us up-to-date on the arterial route for Corner Brook? What is the latest on this? Quite a few people are interested in finding out what is going on. I know that they are expecting some word momentarily but l would like the latest on this as soon as possible~ MR. HICKMA!l: I wonder whether the hon. minister would indicate to the committee what progress is being made with respect to the paving of the sections of the Burin Peninsula Highway that have been upgraded and are now ready for paving?

The contract has been awarded for the thirteen miles, I think, from Piper's Hole Bridge, the river there toward Terrenceville~ That is all. There are several other sections of highway that are now ready for paving and have been for some time. There is a

section between Terrenceville and Bay t•Argent. A

section of it was built two years ago. The

section between Grand Beach and Winterland, that is completed and another

section just beyond the Terrenceville Intersection is completed. It is my understanding that the first DREE Agreement provided for the upgrading and rebuilding of the Burin Peninsula Highway. It only provided for the paving of the two sections that were paved the year before last. There was a

section out of Grand Bank 1 towards Winterland, and a

section out of Marystown, towards"Red Harbour. The

section now to which the contract has been awarded and also the

section from Winterland to Grand Beach I think are in the first DREE Agreement. 4479

May 25, 1971 Mr. Hickman Tape no, 735 Page 10 The concern being expressed by residents of the Soth Coast is that we have a very limited, as the minister is aware, paving season. I believe that June 15 to October 15,weather permitting 1 is the time. Now I fully realize that there was some work done on the Trans- Canada after October 15. You cannot count on it though. If we are to have any paving on the Burin Peninsula this year,other than the contract that has been let, I suggest that the hon. minister is going to be hard pushed to do it.

First he has to call tenders anBlfollowing the submission of bids, it is my understanding that bids must go to Ottawa,because it is a cost-sharing programme. I also understand that if the lowest bid is in excess of the estimated cost, that ei~her Ottawa has to approve the bid as such or do 1 as they did on the SL La-.vrence, Loon's Cove Highway, order the recalling of bids. . Now all of this to be done in six to eight weeks without even trying and any contract for paving that is not let by the middle of August, you will not see and you cannot see; there will not be any paving activities this year.

We do have, I submit to the minister, at least thirty miles of highway ready for paving now. It is well settled- The work is complete. Would the minister indicate to the committee whether the status of the second DRE.E Agreement - my understanding that the cost of paving these sections 44130

May 25th, 1971 Tape 736(Afternoon) MR. HICKMA'l: 6f the highway and the rest of the Burin Peninsula highway is to cone in the second DREE agreement,including the road from Lewins Cove to St. Lawrence. The other problem th;;t I would like to draw to t:he Minister's attention, I am am sure it is drawn to his attention almost weekly, is the condition that the contractors are