Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 29 (26th Legislature, 2nd Session)

26-2-29

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly Of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable A. W. Harrison Volume IV No. 29 February 26, 1960 2nd Session, 26th Legislature Printed by R. S. Evans. Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba, Winnipeg

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THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Friday, February 26th, 1960 Opening prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions Presenting Reports by Standing and Select Committees Notice of Motion Introduction of Bills Orders of the Day HON. STEW ART E. M cLEAN (Minister of Education) (Dauphin): ' Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I should like to direct the attention of the members of the House to a group of eight students in the Speaker's gallery from the Manitoba Day School for the Deaf. 'fh� pupils are here with their teacher, Miss Grantham, and, I am certain that the members of the House would wish me to extend to them a very hearty welcome and tell them how pleased we are that they have come to be with us today. (Hear ! Hear ! ) MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. HON. C. H. WITNEY (Minister of Mines & Natural Resources) (Flin Flon): Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to lay on the table a Returu to an Order of the House No. 21. · MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. W. G. MARTIN (St. Matthews): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to draw the attention of the members of the House to a group of children there on your left. Sometimes when groups of children have been introduced to this Assembly-we have heard the felicitations offered in the French language, and that, of course, has drawn our attention to great events in the history of Canada and the very early history of Canada.

When I mention the name of the school from whic:tl t4ese boys and girls come it will draw our atten tion to another great event in the early history of Canada. I have much pleasure in presenting to you the 41 students from the Isaac Brock School, Mr. Speaker, and I hope that they are going to enjoy their visit with us this afternoon and enjoy the progress of debate and go away and say to one another, •Well, those battles that we heard of in the early days have nothing compared with the battle we witnessed this afternoon." MR. F. GROVES (St. Vital): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to join with the Honourable Member for St. Matthews in welcoming this group from Isaac Brock School. I attended Isaac Brock School from Grades I to IX and therefore I have a very special interest in that particular school and take particular pleasure in associating myself with the honolU'aglEl member's welcome. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. HON. STERLING R. LYON (Attorney-General) (Fort Garry): Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day; yesterday in the coJrse of debate on the estimates of my department, I had intended to bring to the attention of the House a computation error which appears in table 1 of the current, that is the 36th Annual Report of the Liquor Control Commission. This error was brought to my attention by the Commission. It results from the fact that in previous years the conversion rate, that is the conversion of cases of Canadian whiskey into gallons was done at the rate of two gallons per case,

whereas in actual fact the more accurate conversion factor, so the Commission have advised me, is 1. 87 5 gallons per case, and the figures which are shown in table 1 for "59-'60 are figures based on the 1. 87 5 a gallon basis. The previous figures were, of course, based on the old system of two gallons per case which would give them a .slightly higher amount than they actually should be. Now I have instructed the Commission to have this page reprinted and when that page is available I will have it distributed in the House, Mr..

Speaker, but I thought this should be brought to the attention of the House at this time. MR. T. P. HILLHOUSE, Q.C. (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, could the Attorney-General advise as to whether or not that is before the water is added? MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I understand that the former Honourable Member from Iberville used to ask the same question and I can assure the Honourable Member from Selkirk that anything that is sold in Manitoba is not watered down at all. It is good healthy Canadian February 26th, 1960 Page 969

(Mr. Lyon, cont' d) ..... . liquor just as good as it was when the honourable members across the way were purveying it. MR. MORRIS A. GRAY (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a similar question. Will this explanation enable us to get a bottle of liquor for less money? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of Return. The Honourable the Leader of the CCF Party. MR. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the CCF) (Radisson): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move seconded by the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing (1) copies of all correspondence directed from the Public Utility Board and/or the .-Province of Manitoba to the National Energy Board in respect to the export of natural gas; (2) copies of all briefs presented to the Utility Board and/or the Province of Manitoba in respect of the above to the National Energy Board; (3) an answer to the question: was there any re presentation made to the National Energy Board regarding the export of natural gas by the Utility Board or the Province, and if not, why not.

Mr. Speaker put the question. HON. GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Industry & Commerce)(Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if it will be agreeable to the House if this order were allowed to stand for one day until my colleague the Minister of Public Utilities returns. The responsibility in this regard is divided between us, and while I can answer for myself that I see no objection to the questions or no points to be discussed, I cannot answer for him, and if it was agreeable I would welcome it if it stood. MR. PAULLEY: I have no objection, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Orders for Return.

The Honourable the Leader of the CCF Party. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move seconded by the Honourable Member for Fisher that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing: (1) what amounts of money were paid to Arthur D. Little & Co. of Boston in respect to surveys, reports, etc. for each of the years 1954 to 1959 inclusive; (2) what reports were received by the Government from the above firm in each year ; how many of the major recommendations have bJen implemented;

(3) Are tenders called for reports of the type submitted by Arthur D. Little?

(4) Are there any Canadian firms capable of conducting such surveys, etcetera? If so are they given consid eration in awarding of contracts? Mr. Speaker put the question. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I see no objection to accepting this Order and I will do my best to furnish the information which I believe the Leader of the CC F Party is seeking. It will not be possible to give straight tabulation of some of the facts that he asks for, and if the return is not complete or satisfactory to him I suggest that he might be willing to take the question up again when they come to my estimates.

I'll try to amplify it as far as possible but I do see some difficulties in answering the question in the form that they are asked. I don't know whether he would care to discuss it further now as to the factors involved or take this suggestion that we might have a fuller discussion on estimates. MR. PAULLEY: I would be perfectly agreeable to that, Mr.

Speaker, if the Honour able the Minister of Industry and Commerce would undertake to attempt to give me as much or as many of the answers that he can at the present time, and then if they do not cover the points I'd discuss it with him under estimates or through some other method. Mr. Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. E. GUTTORMSON (St. George): Mr.

Speaker, I move seconded by the Honourable Member for Selkirk that a humble address be voted to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor for a Return of (1) all the correspondence between the Government of the Province of Manitoba and the Government of Canada with respect to the Federal Government's Road to Resources program; (2) a copy of the agreement between the Government of Canada and the Government of the Province of Manitdba with respect to the Federal Government's Road to Resources program; (3) a copy of the agreement betWeen the Government of Canada and the Government of the Province of Manitoba with respect to the financial arrangements between the two governments regarding the construction of the Gypsumville - Grand Rapids road.

Mr. Speaker put the question. HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier) (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, we'll be glad to accept the Page 970 February 26th, 1960

{Mr. Roblin, cont'd) ..... question subject to the usual reservation. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain and the amendment thereto by the Honourable the Leader of the CCF, and the amendment to the amendment by the Honourable Member for Selkirk.

I might say that I took this motion unde r advisement a day or so ago and I am now prepared to give a ruling on it, and the ruling is as follows: Last Tuesday, February 23rd, the Honourable Member for Birtle Russell made obje ctions to the debate continuing on the original resolution moved by the Honour able Member for Turtle Mountain and on the amendment to the motion moved by the Leader of the CCF Party and on the amendment to the amendment moved by the Honourable Member for Selkirk.

The original motion and the several amendments have all been accepted by the Chair and hav� been debated by several honourable members of the Legislature . The motion and amendment are now the property and responsibility of the House and can only be disposed of in the following manner : (1) accepted by vote of the House; (2) rejected by a vote of the House; (3) withdrawn by the mover of the original motions and the several amendments by unanimous consent of the House; (4) remain on the Or ?-er Paper at prorogation.

They cannot be ruled Out of Order by the Speaker once they have become the property and responsibility of the House . No Point of Order can be established by the Honourable Member for Birtle-Ru ssell . Therefore no decision on the subject matter of the questions posed by the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell can be made by the Speaker . The question before the House is the amendment to the amendment moved by the Honourable Member for Selkirk. The Honourable Member for Birtle-'Russ ell has the right to apeak as he only spoke on a point of order last night . MR. R. G. SME LLIE (Birtle-Rus sell) : Mr.

Speaker, when this original legislation regarding school construction grants was introduced the matter received conside rable study by a committee of this House, and it is my understanding that the grant

schedule now in use was the recommendation of that committee. Since that time this matter has received continu ing consideration by the Department of Ed ucation and particularly since the last session of this House, at which time the resolution was passed requesting the Minister to make a particular study of this problem and to report to this House. Now I know, Sir, of my own knowledge· that the Minister has made a considerable study of this particular problem since that t�e, and I have every confidence that he will report to this House at this session . It is even within the realm of possibility that he will introduce legislation at this session which may change the grant

schedule . If we accept the resolution as amended and sub-amended which is presently before the House, the Minister may be very seriously limited in the report which he can intro duce to this House . It is quite possible that if he has legislation in mind that he would not be able to introduce the legislation that he wishes to introduce . With respect, Mr. Speaker, I would ask the mover of this resolution and the amendments to withdraw same until the Minister has made his report. If they will not do so, then I would ask the House to join with me in turning down this resolution . MR.

SPEAKER: Are you re ady for the question? MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speakerr does this not raise a point of order to this degree that if the Minister intende d to do this, that had he have stood in his place and said this then the resolutions would not have been proceeded with. And I wonder whether or not if the sugges tions adopted by the Honourable Member for Birtle Russell -- that even if the House does accept this suggestion of his and turns down these resolutions, whether it would be in order, Mr.

Speaker, for the Minister to introduce it at this session beca use of the Rules of the House saying that a matter of which the subject matter has been decided by the House cannot be re presented in the House at the same session. I wonder if the Honourable Member for Birtle Russell or yourself, Sir, on the point raised by my friend have taken this into consideration.

Because even if we do defeat it, as I read the rules it v.ould prevent the Minister -from follow ing through his, or at le ast as suggested by the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell of introducing it, and maybe the proper way in order to overcome the rules, and I can understand the objective that the Minister has, apparently, and also the Member for Birtle-Russell, that the better thing may be to have a conference with the parties concerned on this on that un.der standing and have it withdrawn. Because if it is voted on as suggested by my honourable friend February 26th, 1960 I Page 971

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd) ..... I doubt whether the rules would permit it to be re -i ntroduced this session by the :Minister. I don't know if the First :Minister has a comment on that point or •.. . MR. SMELI.JE: Mr.

Speaker, if I may, on the point of order, there axe two possibil ities open at the moment; either the matter can be withdrawn in which case the House has reached no decision on the point, or the sub -amendment and the amendment could be voted down at which time there could be a new amendment to the original resolution introduced in line with any proposed legislation the Honourable Minister may have, and that was my sugges tion to the House that either the sub -amendment and the amendment should be voted down or the movers of the resolution and· the amendments may consider withdrawing their resolutions at this time. 1 MR.

PAULLEY: I suggest that the House be --it be permitted by the House to allow this to stand at this particular time until we have an opportunity of checking .all of the ramifica tions that may arise as a result of till s. MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, I don't know whether I can help in this matter at all, but I think the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell has very succinctly and accurately outlined the two courses that are open to us. And as far as we are concerned, either one would be perfectly agreeable to us.

However, if there is any disposition to think that it would help clari fy the matter in the minds of those who have moved these various motions .and amendments thereto, we would have no objections to having the matter stand and the members could consult on the point. However, I think that dither of the two solutions prop.osed would be accept able and practical, but I leave it to the House if it is desired to have the matter stand it's very simple to have that done. MR. D. L. CAMPBELL (Leader of the Opposition) (Lakeside): Ml;.

Speaker, if I may speak on the point .of order, I would suggest to the Honourable the First Minister that there is a much simpler way .of doing it than either of the suggestions that have been made in my opinion, and that would be for the Minister or the .First Minister to .simply stand in place, .in his place in the House and announce that -this legislation is going to be introduced, at whi.ch time I'm sure that Mr·. Speaker would agree that the resolution then automatically stands or disappears from the Order Paper until the legislation has come forward.

However, if there is not a disposition to do that at the moment, I would agre.e with the suggestion of the Honourable the Leader of the CCF Party that it would be better for the whole issue -to stand here while further consideration was given to it. MR. SPEAKER: I might point also that on the original motion which is incorporated in all of the amendments you have the standard clause, "consider the advisability of rescinding," which is not entirely binding on the House regardless of what happens to the resolution. But if the House wishes the motion to stand we'.ll stand it. Motion stand. MR.

ROBI.JN: .... • stand, Sir, yes. MR. SPEAKER: Order stand. Adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honour able Member for Inkster and the proposed motion in amendment thereto of the Honourable Member for Rhineland. The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. GRAY: Mr. Speaker, our original motion reads "that this House request the government to petition the Federal Government for an increase for Old Age and Blind Pension ers in the Province from $55 to $75 per month." The proposed amendme11t, these are the words "from $55 to $7511 in the last line be deleted. In other words, it's only a request.

I want to congratulate very much the Leader of the Social Credit Party in this House for getting wise, clever, on the political --I wouldn't say tricks but I haven't got another word -- habits of watering down som ething whj.ch another member suggests. I think that he has learned this very quickly. Apparently he does not believe in resurrection; his party was dead for a long time. There were hopes all over Canada that with his entrance in this House there may be some resurrection to his party.

I could tell him right now that he drove the last nail in the coffin of ever reviewi.nghi.s party agai.n,--(Interjection) -- Well, this is my -- I'm a member of a prophetic people and this is my prophecy. It's absolutely --I wouldn't say dishonest, it's not a good word -- it's absolutely wrong to come and take out everything of a resolution because it'll cost the government money.

May I remind the Honourable Member of the Social Credit that his party for years have advocated destruction of the banks; have criticized the present financial structure in Canada; have offered $100 a week or $100 a month to everyone in Canada Page 972 February 26th, 1960

(Mr. Gray, cont'd) •.••. as long as they are elected. And what happened with them? Even Alberta now is not a Social Credit Government. It is in my opinion a-- what's the name of the Premier?- A MEMBER: •••... Manning MR. GRAY: Manning Government. However, he made a mistake in my opinion; his I , judges are his constituency. I happened to work in his constituency in Plum Coul 'fle. I know the people as good as he does although he was born there and raised there:.

I don't think they are to be classed among the very rich people in this province although they have good land, and I don't thplk they will approve of your action. I sincerely hope and pray they will rememb er this if and when you come up again for re-election. I don't think the honourable member deserves more criticism than this; he's still a young man, a recruit, and we have to be kind to people who perhaps have no political experience or have not gone through the hard life as many of us have.

I also wish to. remind the Honourable Leader of the Opposition that he made a very regrettable statement when we were discussing the indemnity of the members, and he mention ed there, how can we get an increase of the indemnity when we're asking for an increase of the old age pensioners? I don't think this has anything to do with it. I think that this state ment, I could have made it myself, become very popular,. oppose the indemnity and still re ceive it and be a good boy.

But let me tell the Honourable Member, the Leader of the Opposi tion now, I as one, speaking for myself only, am still prepared to forego my indemnity, the extra indemnity, if this House, with his permission, with his support, accepts my original resolution. Now as far as the Honourable Member from Winnipeg Centre, he has not said one word about the necessity of the old age pensioners; he has not mentioned a single word of the plight, of the hardships, but he came out with a scare that this will cost hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars. It's natural it scares the taxpayers.

Whether his statements and figures were right I don't know. I don •t say they were wrong. But he did try to do one thing and tell the public in the province, the people in this province and in this House that don't do it becavse it will cost hundreds and millions of dollars, and people get scared when it comes to an expend iture of money. I think that the main question is, M:r;. Speaker, is $7 5 per month sufficient for a pensioner? Can anyone exist on such allowance, never mind the hundreds of millions of d9llars? That's the main question.

Why did the Federal Government when the Liberals were iri power� raise this pension by $6? How did they know that they needed $6? Had they made an investigation that $6 is sufficient? And if it is not, if it's a question of hundreds of millions of dollars o£ additional expense, why did they give them this $6? There must be a reason; and then the Conservatives later added another $9 a month. Now there must be a reason for it.

They either had to-- I wouldn't say buy the electorate, I wouldn't say this word -- but they either had to give something to the people before the election or they realized they needed more money. They weren't worrying about the hundreds of millions of dollars which it will cost the taxpayers. Why was the original $20 raised to $40? And in 1927, they raised it some more and today it's $55 a month. How did they do it? The cost of living has incr·eased more at the time they have raised the pension - much more I And if they have considered it's necessary, then why worry where the money comes from?

I still remember distinctly and vividly that one alderman on City Council years ago, when we asked at the ti.me that they have handed out to families so many loaves of bread, so many potatoes, a half an ounce of salt, a quarter of an ounce of pepper, and when the people came along and asked for another dollar -- not a dollar, a loaf of bread; they had 12 loaves· of bread a week, they wanted ��, What did he tell them?

He says, "Where are we going to get the money?" At that time tg� J:lw:lget was only $10 million; today these people, they still say, "Where are we going to get thE! mepey?" This province, when I came in, had a budget of $18 or $20 million; today they have� $135 million. Where did they get the money? Where did the -- billions of dollars has been spent on defence --I'm not against it. I'll do anything to protect our way of life; spend every cent if possible. They don't ask us where are we going to get the money. And where are the people of the province getting $50 million to spend on liquor? Where?

Let me remind the members here that in 1927 a loaf of bread was five cents; now it's 15 or 16 cents. In 1927 meat was nine cents a pound; today the cheapest meat you can get is �0 cents a pound. They were getting $20 a February 26th, 1960 Page 973

(Mr. Gray, cont'd) .... month then and $55 now. It's more than the pension they get now. In other words the $20 a month then was much more than the $55 a month now. Then' take sugar, coffee, breakfast food, eggs, potatoes, vegetables, butter, milk and the essentials of a necess ary diet have increased four or five times. I'm. not mentioning caviar or champagne. And the same thing with everything else. · I Take the single men-pensioners, and I want the Honourable Leader of the Social CrE1dit Party to listen to it, and this is a fact.

I could prove it to you every morning if you wish -- and by the way, if my statement is not accepted as far as the facts are concerned lOO%, I would respectfully suggest every member in this House to go down to the pension office and grab six files, two files, one file at random, don't pick it, and go down and see the people for your selves, and find out whether I'm correct or not. Now here's a single man, an old age pension er--it's just an example. He comes in for breakfast; what does he get? A bowl of porridge and coffee, 25 cents. At lunch what does he eat?

Soup, bread and coffee, 45 cents; and at. night he buys the cheapest meal on the menu which is 65 cents, and they don't get any steaks on that! assure you. It's a daily total of $1.25. Multiplied by 30 days, it's $37.50. Now add $20 a month rent for an unsuitable, unsanitary, fire hazard room without anything, it's $20. So he's spending $57.50 for food and room --starvation food. A dietltian may say that this is enough to live, or maybe say the other way, this is too much to die, but not enought to live. So even on food alone, they are short $2.50 a month. No fruit or vegetables, not mentioning their clothing.

Wash it, repair of the clothing, a little tobacco, a tooth brush, paste, carfare, a show occasionally, a postage stamp; they haven't got a cent for all of this and they're still short $2.'50 per month in order to balance the $55 a month budget. They probably have to go without a meal once or twice a 'month. I'm speaking, Mr. Speaker, for at least 25,000 of such people in this province who are definitely under the means test. I agree many may not need it. Talking about those who are receiving pension who don't need it, I've already mention ed that.

In the first place the idea df eliminating and doing away with the means test is one of the greatest things that human dignity can expect. I will not recite to you now but I may-- but probably I should, is what it means, a means test. It's a torture, and no dignified man will come to an office unless he absolutely has to, stand on his knees and swear to God and man that he hasn't got a single piece of bread in the house, that he hasn't got any money, that he hasn't got any wealth. It's ridiculous when those statements are printed--he says, •'How many acres of land have you got?

How many buildings have you got?How much real estate have you got? How much money have you got"--when the people that apply for it haven't got a dime to their name . What about the family allowance?

I think those --that the government that has created or decided on the family pian, their name or the government name or that party, I don't care which, will remain as a shining light in the history of Canada -- because once and for all they realize that where a single man gets, say, a wage of $200 a month, and a married man does the same job and gets $200 but has to support four and five children, it's unfair but you can't do anything about it, the job pays just that much.

The children were neglected, and the govern ment of the day decided to have family allowances and I think it's the greatest social legislation that was ever made in Canada. It's a great thing because it gives the big family a chance. It's true that the capitalist also gets it who doesn't need it, but we can't help it. We can't let half of the people suffer because the other half of the people gain. And as I stated in introduc ing the bill, most of it goes back through the income tax. So we have to spend some money in order to protect others .

What are we doing with --a plane gets lost and we are spending thousands and thousands of dollars and we are sending out planes to search for them and for one individual, we spend thousands of dollars to rescue him. I think it's a very wonderful thing. I think it's one of the finest things --if we should sell it to the dictators of the wonld, this idea, this· ideal. Bu1; at the same time we do it, here is a chance to save children from undernourishment and the government was not afraid of the idea that those who don't need it, get it. I'm speaking for the information of the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre.

The healthy have always had to pay and look after the sick. Would you be thy brother's keeper? The parents of normal, healthy children--which I'm going to mention later on to the Honourable Minister of Health and Public Welfare- have to pay for the crippled. People give to charity. Why? To help the underprivileged. So there is no logic in the argument, worrying about money, Page 974 February 26th, 1960

(Mr. Gray; cont'd) •... where the money comes from. Is the human being suffel'ing? He has to be helped. If you have another way of helping him, it's perfectly all :dght, it's perfectly all right with me. When you mention an amount of $55 to $75, I had in mind just this very same thing when I suggested here a $5 increase from $20 to $25. It's an arbitrary figure; if you want to make it $25 go ahead; if you want to make it 10, if you think 1.0 is enough, go ahead.

My point is that the basic pension should be a little higher than the $55 a month, and I think those who feel that the old age pensioner deserves it, should support the resolution Now, coming back to the amendment, Mr. Speaker, as much as it hurts me, and as much as it hurts our group, I want to say that we are almost, almost compelled to support it. Not because it comes out from that individual who does not understand, in my opinion, the whole situation, but if this $55 and $75 per month words are deleted, it still remains to petition the Federal Government for an increase of the old age.

We are anxious to do some thing for them. I still vividly recollect the time that Mr. -- what's his name, the Justice of .,.-(Interjection) when Mr. Garson was Premier of this province, and I asked him -- he made the same argument as some of the honourable gentlemen here against this motion. When I told him, Mr. Premier, give something, give us a dollar, show that you are interested in it, he said "no". A month later after the House adjourned $5 was given. Honourable Members, I don't think that if I could speak another half an hour it will change your mind. I feel that I had to say what's in my heart.

I happen to know the situation perhaps closer than anyone else. I happen to deal with this problem with this tragedy for m any years. I tell you, please take my word that in spite of the social securtty legislation which we have now -- which is a very fine thing, and I commended the government for it at the time -in spite of this, I say that the basic rate of old age pensions federally, not pro vincially, is not sufficient. The proViD.ce at the moment does not have to contribute one single cent towards this increase.

All we ask is go on record, telling the Federal Government in our opinion, the old age pensioners are not to be starved; that the old age pensioners are people, men and women who have contributed and helped to build our country. On account of the low wag�!, they could not'save anything. They have to be helped in their "Golden Age" period - and believe me, that "G olden Age" period is not too long. I hope that my appeal now will not be a voice in the wilderness. · :MR . MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Hono� rable Member from Winnipeg Centre that the debate be adjourned. Mr.

Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion carried. :MR . SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution ,of the Honourable Memb er for Fisher and the proposed motion in amendmen� thereto by the Honourable Member for Hamiota, and the proposed motion and.amendment to the amendment by the Honourable Mem ber for Carillon. The Honourable the Minister of Agriculture. HON. GEORGE HUTTON (Minister of Agriculture) (Rockwood-Iberville): Mr. Speaker, I beg the indulgence of the House to let this matter stand. :MR . SPEAKER: Order stand.

Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain and the proposed motion by the Honourable Member for st. Boniface in amendment thereto. The Honourable Member for Brokenhead. :MR . E. R. SCHREYER (Brokenhead): Mr.

Speaker, when I adjourned this debate, it was more for the opportunity of having a longer period of time in which to consider the amend ment and the ramifications of the amendment, and now that we in this group have had this opportunity, we have come to the conclusion that although the sentiment of the amendment might be, no doubt is, well meaning, that the total and concluding effect of the amendment would be to actually bring the financial picture back to the original motion itself.

I feel that this amend ment is actually an attempt to have us return to the original -- I don't know if I can explain it any better than that. I realize that the member for St. Boniface had some argument, some point of argument when he said that this consideration for the costs of land be given because it is true that in the built up, urban areas, school boards in purchasing land will have to pay considerable sums of money per acre to acquire the land.

That is a point which should be considered of course, but we feel that the fact that $15, QOO grl¥lt per classroom is already being made that the school board should be in a position to acquire the land as it has in the past. As a matter of fact I cannot see why a school district eAisting in an urban area which has a February 26th, 1960 Page 975

(Mr. Schreyer, cant' d) ..... high assessment should not be in a position to pay for the land to a better degree than could a school district in some rural area where the assessment is low. I must confess that it is not with any great amount of conviction that I rise to speak on this resolution. I merely do so, Mr� Speaker, to outline our stand on it; and I would merely say in closing that we cannot support the spirit of the amendment because it is nothing more than an attempt to bring into effect the original motion which· we !were opposed to from the beginning. Mr.

Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion lost. MR. CAMPBELL: The yeas and nays Mr. Speaker, please. MR. SPEAKER: Call in the members. Order. The question before the House is the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for St.

Boniface in amendment that the resolution be amended as follows: by adding after the word "for" in the third line the following words: 'purchase of land and equipment" and by deleting the words,$ 20,000 per room" in the eighth line and substituting the following, "15, 000 per room for construction and equipment only and an additional $5, 000 maximum grant for each room for the purchase of land only." A standing vote was taken, the result being: YEAS: Messrs. Campbell, Prefontaine, Hryhorczuk, Guttormson, Hillhouse, Tanchak, Desjardins, Roberts, Shoemaker, Dow, Froese. NAYS: Messrs.

Roblin; Johnson, McLean, Evans, Lyon, Thompson, Witney, Shewman, Hawryluk, Paulley, Gray, Ridley, Alexander, Hutton, Scarth, Mrs. Forbes, Messrs. Martin, Cowan, Groves, Corbett, Christianson, Wagner, Wright, Orlikow, Watt, Ingebrigtson, Jeannotte, Stanes, Smellie, Strickland, McKellar, Weir, Seaborn, Johnson, Baizley, Bjornson, Klym, Schreyer, Peters, Harris. CLERK: Yeas, 11; Nays 40. MR. SPEAKER: I declare the motipn lost. The question before the House is the proposed resolution by the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. Mr. Speaker put the Q.Jiestion and after a voice vote declared the motion lost. MR.

CAMPBELL : Mr. Speaker, would this be an appropriate time to start the same division? If there is no objection I would be willing to suggest the same division. MR. ROBLIN: No objection here, Mr. Speaker. MR. PAULLEY: No objection here, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: ,I declare the motion lost under the same division as before. Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable Member for La Verendrye and the proposed motion in amendment thereto by the Honourable Member from Roblin. The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. 0. F. BJORNSON (Lac du Bonnet): Mr.

Speaker, the hauling of pulpwood in Eastern Ontario is a matter that has been of prior concern in my constituency for many seasons. The Manitoba Paper Company is in thatlocaleand many of my constituents, farmers, truckers, · · contractors, live in around the village which I reside in. I have been particularly concerned · with their problem since early last fall. The matter has been discussed at the municipal level and has been of concern also to our1reeve and the councillors.

I have had delegations L>to · · this House to confer with the interested Ministers and the Transport Board, and I have spoken at length and sometime� too loudly possibly, on their behalf in our own caucuses. My senti-: · ment is that there exists a feeling amongst many of the people that this is a concern to only a handful of truckers, and I would like to dispel this idea from the minds of anyone in this Hous§.

This subject has a direct bearing on many of the departments in this government --the Depart;'· ment of Mines and Natural Resources, the Department of Public Utilities, the Department of · Industry and Commerce, and the Department of Public Works; and other departments in a - lesser degree. The'people involved are farmers, truckers, contractors, pulpwood cutters, merchants, trucking E:lquipment agencies to mention but a few who derive direct benefit from this operation of the harvesting of our wood products.

We have been informed many times that in our specific area the income from our operations in our forests are tantamount to the income from agriculture in times when agriculture is at its highest production peak, and I would like you to consider the importance of the wood products to our farmers when we have had a disaster on our farms such as occurred this season. Now the villain in this story, if there must be one and if this rambling talk can l:Je Page 976 February 26th, 1960

(Mr. Bjornson, cont'd) .•... classified as a story, is our Department of Public Works who installed the weighing apparatus on the road to Pine Falls and are checking to sre if the trucks are overloaded and are licenced to the proper limits. Some of the workers I hav� talked with expect our government to take the role of Robinhood and his Merry Men to set things aright for them, and I can assure you that I relish a

part in this fable as I think that this woqld-be story will ha ye a happy ending. But I think howev�r, that more than fiction is required to resolve this problem of such gravity. I would suggest that it can be solved to the satisfaction of all concerned if the problem receives the thought and the planning and 'the action from all concerned departments of our government. The thoughts that I have are that our roads when frozen during the winter months will not suffer if we permit reasonable overloads.

I make this observation from speaking to truckers with many years of experience in their line of business and to men long experienced in building the roads. I understand our municipalities lift the restrictions on their roads during the winter months and that the Utopian province to the immediate west of ours makes allowances on its roads during the winter months for an addition to their load limits.

I think too that we will be taking a progressive step to improve our trans portation picture as a whole if measures are taken to extend our planning to.all of Manitoba for all the products that are required to move over our roads during the winter months rather than only one segment of our winter operation. Surely consideration must be given to our bush operations, such as lumber\ saw logs, telephone poles, ties, fence posts and of course, the moving of the end product of our pulpwood, the large and heavy rolls of newsprint. Consider ation should also be given to many other products of farm and industry.

I believe that all the benefits given in the past to the farmers such as the nominal fee for hauling his own products are concerned, should most definitely be retained. I think, however, that where a farmer becomes a trucker he should expect the same treatment as our general truckers, so that there will be no friction created in one competing against the other in the same type of operation. I have set forth just a few of my considered opinions in connection with this matter.

I am certain that there are more capable men in the government service than I am,. who are capable of performing a much better job of the necessary planning to make this operation beneficial to all. I think the resolution as presented to this House by the Honourable Membe r from La Verendrye was a good one, and the remarks made by my fi'J.mi;1, tm Honourable Member from Gilbert Plains was a graphic picture of the trucker and lU§ pt'OOlems, but i do not think either one of these talks went far enough or emphasized the llll'ger concepts of this subject.

I realize that they were sincere in their endeavour in urging this government to immediate action on moving pulpwood, but I think anything that this government could do now in this limited scope and the time permitted would not be of the ultimate benefit that they seek for their constituents. They are concerned with thousands of cords of pulpwood being left in the forest for another season. We are also concerned with this. We have been in touch with the Pine Falls mill and are told that the delivery of pulpwood is progressing at about the same rate as in previous years, despite the restrictions.

I can say though, that they think that due to the favourable weatre r they should have been better. i have talked with many truckers in the past weeks without any hinderance who have been over the scale and have been allowed without binderance to carry on without being checked again. They tell me that the wonderful weather that we have enjoyed this winter, without storms or any heavy snowfalls, that they're able to operate profitably with less delays and breakdowns than in former winters where they had heavy snows to contend with.

They still feel though, as far as the trucker is concerned, that the restrictions will cut into their paychecks and are hopeful something will.be done to alleviate this either through permitting overloads, by raising the load limits, or a better deal with the paper company. I can suggest that you support the amendment to this resolution in good faith, that it is not a delaying action, but will give us time to do the important planning and take the necessary action for this very worthwhile resolution.

Now having said all this I would like to comment on the remarks of the HoiJ.ourable Member from Fisher on the same subject. He seems to get more mileage out of 'his gas on subjects regarding the farmer� in his constituency than any other rural member. I feel that I am just as much a champion of the farmers in my constituency as he is of his. He has mention ed, and I quote from his own speech, and quote, ''l'his resolution doesn't need to have a lot of talk or discussion''. In his ho�se, and in his constituency, I agree,.. I really '. February 26th, 1960 Page 977 I

(Mr. Bjornson, cont'd) .... don't know why he talked on it at all, for I cannot see that they are greatly concerned. If there has been nothing taken away from the farmers there is no new restrictions being placed on anyone, and what effect it has on farmers hauling their oW'l wood into boxcars to be .shipped to the mill on the railroads is not the consideration. The scales are located on the road close to Pine Falls and are checking the trucks that come in with their loads on the highways.

He must have a very conscientious bunch of farmers in his area if they are restricting their loads because they've heard of the scale at Pine Falls. He talks of the type of truck used in his area as small farm trucks and I know of no law enforcement bodies, be it forest rangers, RClV!P officers or anyone else who makes a practice of stopping farm trucks and judging the weight carried on the a.'Cles of the farmer's truck ; they just haven't got the equipment to do it and they cannot scale wood by measurement and get an accurate weight of a load.

Therefore if it is of such little matter as he mentions, to him and his people, let me assure him that I do not. He says in his speech that the press quoted him that he has an astounding facility of misunderstanding ministerial explanations. Well by George I I think he has an astounding -- and I use his words again -- facility of misunderstand ing this particular matter also. I think the. Honourable Member from La Verendrye brought in a worthwhile resolution on a matter that he understands which was I think, properly completed by the amendment proposed by the Honourable Member from Roblin.

I think we've been hearing a lot of irrelev ant words from those that spoke on this resolution. We are all trying to achieve the same · object and that is, if the roads will not be damaged by overloading during the winter months then change the present law so that it will benefit equally all concerned with transport of all types of goods and materials for all concerned in Manitoba. We make the laws; we cannot see them br�ken without trying to fix them up; and while we're fiddling with the words the truckers are burning up the roads.

Mind you, figuratively speaking, not actually, for last Monday afternoon I met in a distance of ten miles 11 trucks, 2 with semi -trailers and 9 conventional trucks, and if you could have loaded any more wood on any one of them you would have had to be about 9 feet tall. I think the pulpwood is getting to the mill in spite of all of us and very little, if any, will be left in the bush if the weather continues cold for the next two or three weeks. Now Mr. Speaker, I made the comment about one member making mileage out of the gas he expended on certain subjects.

I too would like to make a better showing on the gas that I've just given out and talk about employment. The pulpwood industry means much to the people of my constituency in the employment field but there is another project that will be of greater importance -- or of great importance, I shouldn't say greater -- also in employing our people who are seeking work. I wou).d like to make a few shr;>rt remarks about that subject that is of so much concern to so\ many of the people in my constituency, namely, the establish ment of the Wh�teshell Nuclear Research Establishment in that area.

I understand that there is a· $60 million 200, 000 -kilowatt atomic reactor to be erected in Kincardine on Lake Huron in Ontario. I suggest that it could possibly be moved to Elliot Lake if there is need as great as we are told they need it, and leave our Manitoba project in Lac du Bonnet constituency where we will be so happy to have it and where we need it so desperately. Thank you. MR. PETER WAGNER (Fisher): Would the Honourable Member permit a question ? MR. BJORNSON: Yes. MR. WAGNER: Does the honourable member only represent his constituency or Manitoba as a whole? MR.

BJORNSON: I am much like my friend from Fisher. I wopl d like to represent all the farmers of Manitoba and decidedly my own along with it. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. STAN ROBERTS (La Verendrye): I would like to make a few remarks please, before we vote on this.

I enjoyed the remarks of the Honourable Member from Lac du Bonnet. : I don't necessarily agree with his opinion that we should support the amendment but I agreed with his general remarks and in fact his introductory rema�ks as to why he was in favour of the whole plan led me to believe that we should support the original motion rather than the amendment, because regardless of how you look at it, the amendment merely delays the decis ion on the original motion. Surely it doesn't take this long to make a decision on a matter Page 978 February 26th, 1960

(Mr. Roberts, con t'd) •....• which is I am sure as routine as the decision, as to whether or not frost or frozen roads can be damaged by heavier loads , and if this is the case, and it is the case as the Honourable Member from Lac du Bonnet has said that in the Utopian province to the left of 'us or to the west of us, they do increase their load limits during the frozen periods of the year, then surely the experience that this province has gained could tell us immediately whether this has damaged their roads .

The Honourable Member from Roblin told us of some trucking problems in his area where they had to truck 15 miles before loading onto rails and shipping to the plant and he was suggesting that my original resolution was meant to be a local resolution, and of course it wasn' t. There isn't any suggestion in it; beca use I understand the conditions best in the constituency of La Verendrye,these were the conditions that I was describing to the House , but this was meant to be a broad resolution and not just abridging those who happen to live in the southeast part of Manitoba .

The pulp in the southeast part of Manitoba is hauled quite some distance to the Pine Falls Paper Mill. Large amounts of it come fr om 80, s5 or 90 miles away and this is a long haul if you have to haul small loads . I don't know why the trucks suddenly are carrying larger loads than they were a week ago , but if this is the case, well then , perhaps our problems have been solved without us really knowing about it.

I don't think I1have anything further to say except that I would urge the House to support the resolution rather than the amendm ent to the resolution because in my opinion the amendment only delays making a decision on this thing, and it would certainly be of no assistance to those who still wish to do conside rable trucking yet this year . Mr,. Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. CAMPBELL: The yeas and nays , Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: Call in the members .

The question before the House is the amend ment submitted by the Honourable Member for Roblin to the motion submitted by the Honour able Member for La Verendrye. The amendmen t reads as follows: 'That the resolution be amended by deleting all the words after the word "livelihood" in the fifth line , and adding, "a nd

whereas the pulpwood industzi. is province -wide and wher�as any special privileges granted to trucks hauling pulpwood should be granted to all trucks of the province, therefore

be it resolved that the government study and consider all the factors concerned and see if it is in the public interest to raise weight limits when highways are frozen ." A standing vote was taken , the result being: YEAS: Messrs . Roblin, Johnson, McLean, Evans , Lyon, Thompson, Witney, Shewman, Ridley, Alexander, Button, Scarth, Mrs. Forbes, Messrs. Martin, Cowan, Groves, Corbett, Cbristi:ptson, Watt , Ingebrigtson, Jeannotte , Stanes, Strickland, McKellar, Weir, Seaborn, Johnson, Baizley, Bjornson, Klym, Hamilton.

NAYS: Campbell , Pr efontaine , Gray, Paulley, Hawryluk, Guttormson, Hillhouse, Tanchak, Orlikow, Wright, Wagner, Desjardins, Roberts, Shoemaker, Dow, Harris , Peters, Scbrey er, Froese . CLERK: Yeas , 31; Nays 19. MR. SPEAKER: I declare the motion carried. The question before the House is the proposed resolution for the Honourable Member for La Verendrye as amende d.\ Mr . Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable Mem ber for Emerson. The Honourable Member for R¥neland. MR. J. M.

FROESE (Rhineland : Mr. Speaker, I have spoken on the matte r pertaining to this resolution in this House before, I think on more than one occasion, and I would rise at this time to support this resolution. The other day we heard the Minister of Agriculture' s comments on the resolution and as far as I am concerned I thought they were rather weak beca use of his bringing in other matters than what was proposed in the resolution itself. I feel tha:t when we ask for an increase in teache rs' grants that it doe sn't necessa rily mean that we are also asking for transportation or construction grants .

We know that the teachers in the non-division areas are left out in the cold. The districts engaging the teachers in these areas are not getting the grants they deserve and once more I would like to repeat that these teachers give the same type of service ; they have the same qualifications and are doing a very good job in these February 26th, 1960 Page 979

(Mr. Froese; cont'd) ...•. non-divis:foRl :ili"'eas . . And further to that, the teachers are not responsible for this plight or for the fitet that these divisions are not receiving these increased grants. They had their own vote bu'U-that was strictly it . The majority in these divisions decided on this course. Further, t Wish' fO' reiterate once more that we today have actually no changes between the elementary· eiassi'oo:tns in division areas and those in non-divisions.

There is no difference -t he same curriculum is being taught and the same qualified teachers, so why do we discriminate against these teachers. The matter of secondary classrooms might be different. I couldn't tell. I hardly think so though, because after all the same schools are carrying on. The only difference that would be, would be in transportation and which this resolution does not touch on at all . ·And we are also, as thi13 resolution states, not even asking for consideration of transportation or construction grai'lts. It is just instruction or teacher grants. I would like to ask the Minister a question.

Would these non-division areas receive the increased grants if they voted themselves into secondary areas? That would mean that the elementary education would be left as it is but the secondary education would then come under the supervision or jurisdiction of the secondary area board. This in my opinion would only be a similar thing as what happened in Dauphin-Ochre and I would feel that they would then also be entitled to the same grants.

Further, I am surprised that the other honourable members who also happen to represent parts of these non-division areas have not made them selves known or heard of on this very question. Then just the other day a Bill was brbught in legislating against hotel owners or other people who are in a position to accommodate certain people or all the people for that matter, that wish to stay over in hotels, and so on.

We are legislating against discrimination of this type, yet our government is inconsistent when they are not giving the same grants to the teachers in elementary classes in non-divisions, yet giving them to the division areas. Once more I would ask the members of this House to support this resolution because I feel it is valid; it will bring the teachers in non-division areas on the same basis as those in division areas. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MRS. THELMA FORBES {Cypress) : Mr. Speaker, I would like to move, seconded by the Honourable Member from St.

Matthews to adjourn the debate. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Brokenhead and the proposed motion in amendment thereto by the Honourable Member for St. Vital. The Honpurable Member for St. Boniface . MR. L. DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I beg the indulgence of this House in order that this matter be allowed to stand. MR. SPEAKER: Order stand. Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable Member for Elmwood. The Honourable Member for St.

Vital . . . • . . . . . . • . Co�'ed on next page. Page 980 February 26th, 1960

MR. FRED GROVES (St. Vital) : Mr . Speaker, I think that the first thing that we have to ask ourselves about this resolution is what does the resolution hope to accomplish? What does the resolution ask us to do ? And I think the Honourable Member from Elm wood tells us on page 618 of Hans ard. He says, "We're just asking for this government to get in touch with the Federal Government and call a meeting of the Ministers of Labour and see what they can do with this ." I think that we should all keep that in mind , that that is the ultimate &im of this resolution . The first

whereas - "whereas the cost of living has been rising steadily since the end of World War ll, " I think that everybody will agree that the cost of living has been rising during that period. And then it goes on "whereas the average wage s have been increased in order to keep in line with the cost of living. " We cannot dispute that during the same period average wages have ce-rtainly increased.

And then he goes on "whereas in many parts of Can ada including Manitoba minimum wage rate s have not kept pace with the incre ased cost of living ." I also agree that minimum wages have not kept pace with the increased cost of living , but Manitoba in thi s respect has certainly done better than most other provinces, all except BC I think. I certainly agree that minimum wage s should be increased and so keen am I that mini mem wages should be increased that in November of 1959 I appeared before the Minimum Wage Board of Manitoba and presented a personal brief .

At that time I urged the boa rd to recommend changes in the Minimum Wage Act to eliminate the present differential between men and women ; to eliminate the disc rimination that existed in the Act because of a person's place of residence in Manitoba; and also for the establishment of a minimum wage of $1. 00 an hour. At that time I used an example of a married with two children, aged eig ht and ten, and went on to point out that if this particular man was earning the minimum wage , he would earn $4.80 per day- $2 8.8 0 per week or $124. 80 a month. If the same man were to go on relief in the muniCipality of st.

Vital he would receive $138.1 6 a month which is $13 . 56 more than he would working for the minimum wage . If the same man were to go on relief in the City of Winnipeg he would _receive a total monthly sum of $159. 12 which is $34 .3 2 more than he would earn by working for somebody for the minimum wage . Now I don't intend to go through this brief , but I used that in my brief as an example to show how ridiculously low the minimum wage was in my opin ion in Manitoba.

The Honourable Leader of the CCF should be happy to know that at that time I also urged that we must first take into consideration when considering these matters an individ ual's standard of living rather than the dollars and cents whi eh he had paid per hour. Going back to the resolution itself there are many good arguments for a national minimum wage , and surprisingly enough, we get quite a few of them from the Can adian Manu facturers Associ ati on.

In the brief which the Canadian Manufacturers Associ ation presented to the Minimum Wage Board, they give us, I think, four good reasons , unintentionally I presume , why there might well be a national minimum wage . The first is on page 1 of their brief "It may seem strange that we should seek an opportunity to present to you our views.

The reason we do so , however, is that we recognize in this law a quite possibly undesirable influence on job opportunities for our citizens and on the prices to be paid by consumers here." They are refe rring then to job opportunities in Manitoba that may be lost through minimum wage laws and make Manitoba not competitive with other are as of this country.

And again they say, and I'm quoting "lt is our contention that if the law sets an unrealistic minimum level it threatens offers of jobs in Manitoba, and when arbitraries such as minimums are set too high by law , fewer job opportunitie s become available here .

Especia lly is this so that it is the un desira ble effect on the number of job offers among the younger and smaller firms in the smaller centres and in rural areas ; especially so in such industries as work clothing where , according to the Dominion Bureau of Statistics figures actual earning run as low as 50� an hour in Quebec, food products where they are reported as low as 60� in Quebec and in Ontario • 65�" Then they go on in their brief and on their final page "We submit that Manitoba law should not be more restrictive of employment in Manitoba than do the laws of Ontario and Quebec and those provinces.

The competition for many of our industrial perils comes from the central provinces. " I maintain that they were trying to point out in the brief that -- I shouldn't say that they were trying to point out in the brief, but they indirectly and unintentionally brought to February 26th, 1960 Page 981

(Mr. Groves; cont'd .) ••••• our attention in their brief the fact that such competition could be eliminated by having a minimum wage that applied throughout the whole of the country. The Honourable Member from Logan last session also gave us a good reason why there should be a national minimum wage, and I quote from his speech on June 19th, where he says, "One of the reasons for establishing a national minimum wage is to prevent unfair competition from em ployers in those parts of Canada where wages are low. " Now the last part of this resolution that we have before us calls for a conference.

It asks that a conference be convened and I think that the convening of this conference is a good idea. Nothing but good could come of such a conference, so that up to this point I agree that the Honourable Member from Elmwood's resolution is a good one, but, there is a bad orange in the basket. The resolution, the final part of the resolution is not practical , nor possible at the present time . And I think that the Honourable Member from Elm wood probably realized this at the time that he presented the. resolution. This resolution is typical of many of the resolutions that we consider from the CCF group.

They incorporate many good thoughts but they then go on to elaborate on these good thoughts to the point where they make their resolution impractical . I have since the day that the Honourable Member from Elmwood made his speech done some research work and accumulated some figures on minimum wages as they apply in the various provinces of this country.

And most of this I will be quoting from a booklet which is in our Legislative Library called Provincial Labour Standards October 1958 , and I'm using this material to show the members of this House what a vast difference there is between minimum wage regulations and minimum wage rates between the different provinces.

These tables show that minimum rates· for full time experienced workers in Nova Scotia and British Colum bia, there are two Minimum Wage Acts , one applying to men and the other to women; bpt in Nova Scotia the male minimum wage act has not been proclaimed; in other provinces the Act applies to both men and women; in Ontario minimum rates have been fixed for women only; in New Brunswick only one order is in effect for men - that covering the canning industry; in Newfoundland the female minimum wage is 35� per hour, the male minimum wage is 50� per hour and these rate s apply throughout the whole province.

In Nova Scotia zone 1 which includes Halifax, Sydney and a number of the other larger centres, the minimum wage is $21 .6 0 per week; in zone 2 which includes Annapolis.Royal,Antigonish, Berwick, Bridgetown and what you might call the secondary centres, the minimum wage is $19 .2 0 per week; in zone 3, the remainder of the province ,the minimum wage is $14 .4 0 a week; and in addition there is a minimum rate of 45� per hour in the fish processing industry which applies anywhere through out the province. In New Brunswick in factories· the female minimum wage is 50� per hour; the male minimum wage is 65� per hour.

This applies in addition to the factories to all canning or fish processing operations and the canning and processing of vegetables and fresh fruit. In shops and offices in New Brunswick there is no male minimum wage; there is a female minimum wage of 50� per hour; in hotels and restaurants in New Brunswick there is also no male minimum wage, the female wage is 45� per hour . In Quebec in factorie s, shops and offices, in zone 1 which is the city and island of Montreal , there is a minumum wage of 60� per hour.

Quebec city and district and other places with 6, 000 or more population, the minimum wage is 55� per hour; and in the remainder of the province, the minimum wage is 50� per hour; in hotels and restaurants for the same three zones the rate s are 55S:, 50� and 45� . In Ontario as I mentioned earlier there is no male minimum wage. The female minimum wage in zone 1, which is Toronto , Hamilton and the larger cities is $22 .0 0 per week. In zone 2 which includes places of 3, 000 population and more the minimum wage is $20 .0 0 per week. In places with a population less than 3, 000 the minimum wage is $18 . 00 a week.

In Manitoba for men the rate is 60� per hour; for women it is 50� per hour in the urban areas and 54� per hour in the rural are as , and we hope if the Honourable Leader of the CCF party will permit me to use that naughty word, we hope to see this increased "soon. " In Saskatchewan there is a minimum wage of $3 0.0 0 per week in the cities and in 15 of the larger towns; $29 .0 0 per week in the rest of the province; and I understand from recent newspaper reports that on April 1st this minimum wage will be increased to $32 .0 0 per week and will apply throughout the whole province.

In Alberta the female minimum wage is $28 .0 0 per week in centres over 5,0 00 population, and $24 .0 0 per week in the rest of the province . The male minimum wage Page 982 February 26th, 1960

(Mr. Groves, cont'd. ) .. is $30 per week in centres over 5, 000 and $26 per week throughout the rest of the province. In British Columbia in factories female minimum wage is 60� per hour and the male minimum is 75� per hour. In shops both minimum wage rates are 65�; in offices both are 75�; and in hotels and restaurants both are 65�. I could not find any statistics on Prince Edward Island, so I have assumed that there is no minimum wage in that province. So just im agine, Mr.

Speaker, what a job it would be for a representative from Manito ba at a meeting of labour ministers of Canada to arrive at a national minimum wage from this hodge-podge of provincial legislation. This in itself, that is the arriving at a national minimum wage, could perhaps be tackled but just imagine what would happen if Manitoba's representative walked into this mee ting with a resolution asking for a national minimum wage of $1. 25 an hour.

I maintain that he would be laughed right out of the conference and that he would soon be left alone with his resolution, and no doubt, with some pretty specific instructions as to what he could do with it. This House I maintain , couldn't possibly vote for this resolution, because it is apparent that there is no possibility of it being accepted either by the Federal Government or any of the provinces . No other province in Canada, except BC has a minimum wage at the pre sent time that is as high as Manitoba. :MR. S. PETERS (Elmwood): Saskatchewan's isn't as high as Manitoba. MR. GROVES: It is higher.

The resolution then in my opinion wouldn't because of the amount mentioned therein, ever acco mplish the purpose of convening such a meeting regardless of how advantageous in other respects such a meeting might be. So I maintain, Mr. Speaker, that this House should vote against this resolution on the grounds that it couldn't possibly accom plish what it sets out to do. MR . SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? ·MR . FRED T. KLYM (Springfield) Mr. Speaker, I beg to move seconded by the Honour- /' able Member for Dufferin the debate be adjourned. Mr.

Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. The Honourable Member for St. John's. MR . D. ORLIKOW (St. John' s): Mr. Speaker, I would crave the indulgence of the House to let this matter stand. MR. SPEAKER: Order stand. The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Hon ourable Member for Churchill. MR. J. E. INGEBRIGTSON (Churchill) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to move seconded by the Honourable Member for Rupertsland;

whereas the district of Keewatin is rich in mineral and water resources ; and,

whereas modern transportation make these resources accessible to the Fort of Churchill; and,

whereas Churchill is a deep sea port and terminus of the Canadian Nati onal Railway; and,

whereas tne Government of Canada and the district of Keewatin have not de veloped the natural resources of the district of Keewatin to any great extent; therefore be it re solved that the Government of the Province of Manitoba study the factors involved in giving con sideration to the suggestion that the Government of Canada transfer the mainland portion of the district of Keewatin, including Boothia and Melvi.lle Peninsulas, to the Province of Manitoba; Mr. Speaker put the question. :MR. INGEBRIGTSON: Mr. Speaker, the district of Keewatin which in Cree means The North Wind, was created a district separate from the Northwest Territories in 1876 by

an Act of the Parliament of Canada. This district was administered by the Government of Manitoba until it was rejoined to the Northwest Territories in 1905 . Now if you care to look at the map, we should define the boundaries of this area. The boundary runs west from Hudson Bay along the 60 degrees of latitude to 102 degrees west longitude; then north along this meridian to Queen Maud Gulf on the Arctic Ocean. From there the boundary runs northeast to Simpson Rae, James Ross, Frankli.n and Bellot Straits to the Gulf of Boothia.

Following the coastline, we come to Pelly and Committee Bays, Fury and Hecla Straits, Foxe Basin, Frozen Straits, and along the western shore of Hudson Bay to 60 degrees of latitude. This will add over 21 8, 460 square miles to the land surface and 9, 700 square miles of fresh water to Manitoba. In other words, it will double our land area and increase our fresh water area by one quarter. Keewatin is divided in to distinct portions--the interior plateau and the coastal plain.

The interior plateau includes that part of the country lying above the highest ancient shoreline, either of Hudson Bay or of the February 26th, 1960 Page 983

(Mr. Ingebrigtson, cont•d. ) .. Arctic Ocean with a mean elevation of 900 to 1, 000 feet above sea level. The coastal plain lies between the highest ancient post-glacial sea beach and the pre sent sea shore sloping gradually fro:n 500 feet down to sea level. Now on various maps of northern Canada you will see the word "Barren Lands". I for one cannot agree with this misnomer. How can you call a land barren that can support thous ands of Carribou and Musk-ox. I would much prefer that we ·should call this land the Arctic Prairie. This Arctic Prairie begins at Churchill and at this point is roughly 50 miles wide.

It extends northward and is 12 5 miles wide at the north end of Dubawnt Lake and reaching its max imum of over 300 miles north of Chesterfield Inlet. On this great prairie roam the musk-ox- the only beef on the hoof we have in the Arctic . No doubt this hardy animal could be domesticat ed and made to run on ranges in the same manner as beef cattle on ranches in Manitoba. The musk-ox produces milk, deli.cious meat and beautiful wool. In fact, the wool is much better than cashmere. Some of the larger ones weigh up to 1, 400 pounds dressed, and skins measure 15 feet from nose to rump.

The average height is about 4 and a half feet. Such lakes as Nueltin, Ennadia, North and South Henik, Dubawnt, Kaminuriak and Baker Lake are virgin lakes with excellent potential for commercial fishing. Lake trout weighing up to 25 pounds are not uncommon. White fish from six to ten pounds and tulibees average about five pounds. The principal rivers such as the Thelon, Back, Dubawnt, Maguse and Big River, have considerable water power potential and by far the largest water power potential is on the Kazan River, which is 455 miles long, and empties into Baker Lake.

More than 800 miles navi gable coast lines would become available and Manitoba would truly become a maritime province. Inlets such as Wager, Ches terfield and Rankin are important water routes into the interior. Ches terfield Inlet which is over 100 miles long, is the most important water route and coastal ships of considerable tonnage can sail to Baker Lake. The development of the salmon fishing industry along this 800 miles of coastline should not be overlooked. The salmon run on the west shore of Hudson Bay, anywhere from one week to ten days longer than on the British Columbia coast.

The white whale or Belugas are found in great numbers and they ar e very easy to harpoon. A small whaleing factory is at present oper ating at Churchill . It may be interesting to note that a shipment of whale oil and meat was made to England from Churchill in 1689. The timber supply along the Thelon River system will no doubt be of great value to Can ada some day. Wooded areas extend for a distance of about 170 miles below the forks of the Hanbury River. Trees can be found up to 12 and 15 inches in diameter. The average size would not be less than six inches.

The only outlet for this timber to the markets would be through Baker Lake and Chesterfield Inlet. The fur and mining industries are of immediate economic importance to the Province of Manitoba. North Ranki.n Nickel Mines have been in operatioll for the past two years and have shipped through the Port of Churchill over 65, 000 tons of high-grade nickel concentrate to smelters at Fort Saskatchewan. Co pper and platinum have also been found. Considerable ex ploration work has been carried out west of Eskimo Point and every indication would lead one to believe that gold and silver has been found in the area.

A geological survey of the southern portion of the district of Keewatin was made by Mr. C. S. Lord in 1953 when 57, 000 square miles were mapped. According to his report, 14, 000 square miles of this area was to search for radioactive deposits. He also stated in his report that it is doubtful if any equally large and favourably-mapped area of the Canadian Shield has received as few man-hours of prospecting per square mile as has the southern portion of Keewatin.

Canada has over half a million square miles of muskeg and this of course, gives north ern Manitoba and the Arctic Prairie vast resources oof peat and peat moss which could be utili.z ed. Because most bogs contain both peat moss and fuel peat, economic working qf a bog would require complete utilization of both these constituents. Peat moss has a high cellulose content and its use has been suggested for the manufacturing of textiles , explosives, paper and card board. Due to its low thermal conductivity, it could be used for the manufacturing of insulat ing board.

Peat tar or plastics prepared from peat might be used as a binding material . It may prove profitable to investigate the fermentation of peat for the production of organic chemi cals other than alcohol. Peat gas generators could be used as a source of power in a processing plant and peat tar which is similar to coal tar, would be produced as a by-product. The humic Page 984 February 26th, 1960

(Mr. Ingebrigtson, cont'd. ) .. acid fraction of peat offers an interesting field for research and some fun damental work has already been done on the composition of peat and the nature of the humic acid,extracted from it. The most promising products that can be prepared from hu mic acid ::ere resins and tanning extracts. Tlie National Research Council has carried out research on muskeg for the past five years, along the line of determining engineering properties of muskeg.

They have been chiefly concerned with muskeg as an obstacle to progress, a formidable type of terrain over which to build roads and to gain access by off-road vehicles. Consequently, Jhey have not carried out any particular research to date on the use of this material commercially as this did not come within their terms of referenc e. This new science of terradynamics is of course, very import ant, but I would respectfully suggest that these terms of refe rence be changed and that we should consider the economic possibility of muskeg.

Control of muskeg would give northern residents the use of enormously rich soil which muskeg produces. An example is the famous vegetable producing Holland Marshes of Ontario . The key to our northern development is, of course, transportation and the seaport of Churchill with its marine and aircraf communication centre. Considerable scientific research is carried out in Churchill area also. It would become an ·im portant administrative and trade centre for the north with a population, I dare say, of 40 to 50 thousand people befor e the turn of the century.

The nuclear submarine freighter would make it possible to operate under the Arctic ice during the winter months. A technical design investigation and economic studies have been con ducted by the Mitchell Engineering Limited of London, England, and conside�able credit must be given to Mr. Mitchell for his interest and faith in the development of the Canadian Arctic. These studies prove that it is possible to operate a bulk carrier of ore, oil and grain. And, Sir, I would like to say to this Chamber and to the people of Manitoba that we should all join together and work to make Manitoba great.

Our economic future lies to the north. MR. W. G. MARTIN (St. Matthews): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Hon ourable Member from Cypress that the debate be adjourned. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable the Lea der of the CCF Party. The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. MR. A. E. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, in rising to speak to this resolution, I realize that much has been said in this House on previous occasions in regard to compulsory insurance.

It would be very indiscreet for me to argue the actuarial aspects of insurance with trained insurance people, nor would I choose to argue the legal aspect of insurance with my very good friend the member for Selkirk. But I do have a few observations and I would like to pass them on to the House. First there is a matter of principle, Mr. Speaker. We have seen quite recently, editori als appearing in the papers.

In fact, I remember one appearing in The Toronto Star about a year ago, discussing the need for compulsory car insu.rance and my leader, I believe, quoted from this one of the Tribune, February the 15th--an editorial backing compulsory insurance. I would like to just quote again one little section. "Motorists should not be issued licence plates until they show proof of financial responsibility.

The underlying assumption of the present safety responsibility law is that a motorist must be involved in an accident before authorities ask for proof of financ ial res ponsibility; before he is required to show that he can pay for the physical damage he had done." This newspaper feels that this should be changed and all motor ists be asked to show proof of financial responsibility before they get their licence plates. This would not be diffi cult or impose a hardship on car owners . All they would have would be to show pink insurance cards or liability bonds.

Now we have, of course, two types of compulsory insurance. That recommended by the Tribune and the one that we are advocating which is government controlled. Now we believe that it is better for the state to administer this insurance fund because in the fir st place it's a good business. ·I t's good business for the government to get into this field. Now I would like to quote fro m a book recently issued in Saskatchewan--and this has to do with low cost insurance protecti on, Mr. Speaker--and this--1 am referri ng'now to Saskatchewan Government insurance offic e.

Now I should say at the outset that this not only involves the handling of automobile insurance, February 26th, 1960 Page 985

(Mr. Wright; cont'd. ) .. but fire insurance as well. The 1958 surplus of this government in surance office was $427 , 000, or the highest ever recorded. The premiums in that year reach ed a total of 6. 5 million--almost ten percent higher than 1957 , with the largest rise being 21 % in fire insurance and 17% in automobile. The government insurance office writes all types of insurance except life, hail and sickness. The Saskatchewan Government insurance office has been an outstanding success, not only in the provision of low -cost insurance, but also as a busi ness venture for the people of Saskatchewan.

Financial surpluses of almost $3 million have been turned over to the Provincial Government since the office was established and ass ets of the office have now risen to a total of almost $15 million. So I think that it would be safe to as� sume that as a business venture, it is certainly quite sound.

Now as I said before, there are two parts to this Saskatchewan insurance office and under the Automobile Accident Insurance Act, any_ surplus or premiums, overpayments and administrative costs is used to .provide motor ists with wider benefits, to permit reduction of premiums or to absorb during periods of high accident frequency. In 1959, the $200 deductable on property damage was removed, thus in creasing benefits to Saskatchewan motorists by an estimated $750, 000 to $1 million per year, with no increase in premium rates.

And in addition, a fund of $10 0, 000 was set up this year to provide for a high school driver training program to be conducted by the Highway Safety Council. Since this Automobile Accident Insurance Act went into effect in 1946 , about $34 million has been paid in benefits and the accu mulated surplus in the fund was 4. 4 million as of December 31 st, 1958. The Honourable Member for Selkirk stressed safety, and I think he is to be commended for that because after all, I think that is the main thing that we're all after is safety on our high ways. And we sometimes use insurance as a means to an end.

Under safety, Mr. Speaker, I would like to follow up what I said about Saskatchewan setting aside $100, 000 for highway safety for the purpose of instituting a driver-education and training program for high school students in the province. Funds were made available to Saskatchewan Highway Safety Council and were set aside out of premiums received by the Automobile Insurance Act, and it is hoped that ap proved programs of a continuous nature will be set up in all communities . Then it goes on to list the various high schools and the enrollment from them for this course. CAnother achievement, Mr.

Speaker, of last year was the successful conclusion of ne gotiations with Manitoba, British Columbia and Alberta to accept a licence plate certificat�- this is the first or primary part of the automobile insurance--the licence plate certificate as evidence of financial responsibility of Saskatchewan motorists travelling in these provinces, that is the western provincesr:-only in Nova Scotia, where it is no longer necessary to carry the so-called pink card when travelling across Canada. In other words, they will accept this certificate of purchase of licence as evidence of financial responsibility.

Now during 1959, $5, 491, 000 was paid out in benefits to motorists. This was an in crease of over $1, 200 , 000 from 1958. The additional amount paid in benefits this year is main ly a result of removing the $200 deductable on property damage coverage. And because of in creased registration and more late model cars the premiums contributed to the fund by motor ists increased over last year by $827-,300. The excess of income, including the interest earn ings over claims and administration costs brought the surplus for the year $364, 275.

The ac cu mulated surplus in the Automobile Acci dent Insurance Act Fund of December 31 st, 1959, is $4, 778, 000, and this amount is being held for the benefit of motorists and other persons suffer ing losses in automobile acc idents. Now as I said before, there are two phases of this AutomobUe Acci dent Insurance; first is the primary one, where you buy your licence and you receive the basic coverage. Then you have the option to purchase additional coverage; the two together is called a package deal.

Now in my travels in Saskatchewan, I asked a lot of questions about what they thought of differ ent things there. One of the most--I should say exuberant responses that I got in asking questi ons about their government was in regard to this automobile insurance. And I think, Mr.

Sp eaker, it's very significant to note that in the last few years, or should I say since the incep tion of it, not one of the three political parties has dared to suggest that this insurance cover age by the Government of Saskatchewan should be removed, because that now that they have seen and enjoyed th.e benefits of it, that it would be impossible to suggest that it be removed. MR. W. B. SCARTH, Q. C. (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, under the same motion, it Page 986 February 26th, 1960

(Mr. Scarth, cont'd. ) .. ts noted that the operative part of the resolution reads as foll ows: "Therefore

be it resolved that in the opinion of this House the government should give consider ation to the advisability of establishment of compulsory motor vehicle insurance in Manitoba, with the government as the insurer". As pointed out, Sir, by the last speaker, the Member from Seven Oaks, this type of a question does excite certain comment in the paper, and if I may deviate for just a moment from the strict subject matter, I would like to bring the attention of the House to an

article which ap peared "Under the Dome", under date of February 25th--yesterday: "The Conservative, Will Scarth, early in the session acquired a vivid green eye-shade and has looked ever since like Hollywood's conception of a small town editor ". Well, _Mr. Speaker, we all like these, but I'll make one comment. We do not need to go very far from here to get a small town paper. For example, on Carlton Street in our lovely City of Winnipeg, there is a daily small-town paper in circulation with a surprisingly large circulation. You know I like this eye shade.

It's a good one, and if it will qualify me, Sir, as editor of that paper, I might accept the job. And even though I've had no experience in the newspaper world whatsoever, I believe I could make just a little better job than is being done of some of the items which appear on the editorial sheet from time to time. Now, Sir, on this resolution; the Honourable the Leader of the CCF has spoken most ably, but I do not need to congratulate him. He dtd that most emphatically and effectively himself on the 23rd.

The Honourable Leader of the CCF admitted to all and sundry present that he had made a good speech the time before and he told us ...... a smart man. Now first thing you know, we will start to believe that if he will just keep on pressing--As for the Honourable Mem ber for Selkirk, who is not here, you. may always rely upon a very effective speech coming from him, because he has an exhaustive knowledge of the subject matter and has that peculiar ability to put across in concise terms, just exactly what he means to say.

Then, Sir, in speaking against this resolution as it stands, it is only fair for me at the same time to point out that we have weaknesses in the administration under our present system with the Unsatisfied Judgment Fund. And I realize that the Minister who is' now absent fro m the House, has under consideration some ref orms to make. But I would like here to record just a few of the irksome details that the Unsatisfied Judgment Fund brings up, and I hope that there will be ref orms. First of all, an injured motorist must recover a judgment in one of the courts for the amount of his injury.

Then if it is found that the judgment debtor has no property ot in surance or assets with which to satisfy the judgment, an application--that is a second applicati on must be made to the court in which the Provincial Treasurer is a party to the application.

And the process is roughly this; an execution is handed to the Sheriff who, after he makes a nulla bona or no return--as he generally does--after that process takes place, the judgment debtor must be-examined to ascertain that he has no assets or insurance of af fidavits must be sometimes obtained from residents in the area who knew the judgment debtor and so forth . And, Sir, the present process is irksome, unwieldy and technical, and I do suggest, while beiieving thoroughly in the scheme that we have at present, I do suggest ref orms in the administrative part.

I might here say that in British Columbia and in one of the Maritime Provinces, the gov ernments have appointed agents or agencies to administer the plan and to recommend to the Provincial Treasurer payment from the fund if it seen that there is no prospect of collecting from the wrong-doer--that is the judgment debtor.

And, Sir, I suggest that consideration be given by this government to a somewhat similar means in the early fut ure, and I further sug gest that where a party is injured, the head of a family or so forth, and cannot work, that we might go as far as to make interim payments to the injured person where the circum stances so warrant. But my objections to the resolution are firstly, that Manitoba is not ripe or ready for socialism.

This province should not lightly create a government monopoly which will have the effect of depriving many insurance men who have spent their adult lives in automobile in surance--of depriving them of their livelihood or a substantial portion of their livelihood. Now we may say, yes, government insurance is cheaper. Well, I will show later that it is not. But these insurance men aren't only busy in selling insurance; they're busy in servicing the insur ed people. They give a grand service and for the most part, they're ethical; they know their business, and their word is good.

Now, Sir, let me make it clear that I'm neither counsel for nor a director of any insurance company. And I have no axe to grind . But I would just like to February 26th, 1960 Page 987

(Mr. Scarth, cont'd. ) .• give the House one little instance which came to my notice. Some years ago, a lawyer came into my office. He had had the misfortune to lose a member of his family, with the result that being upset, he stayed away from his office for a mat ter of three weeks. And while he was absent, unfortunately the year expired in which he should have commenced action under an automobile claim. When he did not commence action within the year, then the person who was injured had no claim in the world against anybody. The year had expired and that's mandatory.

I went to the gentleman who managed that insurance oompany and when I say gentleman I mean just that word. I explained what had happened; how the poli.cy had been allowed to elapse. The manager said to me, "Scarth, I will draw the file; look it over. If I come to the conclusion that our insured was at fault, then I will make you an offer of the amount which I think it is due, and my thinking will be in no way influenced by the fact that you have no claim against us. " Some three or four days later, that insurance manager. 'phoned up and he said, "We find our man was at fault.

We offer you so much money"--which was very ac ceptable. It was a fair offer and it was not an insignificant one. But I say that that is the cour tesy and the ethics of a great many of our insurers today. So let us just not throw them out on the street. My second point, Sir , is this; if a government agency operated this insuranc e company, and if the Claims against that government agency were, say one million dollars in any year or a period of time, then that government agency must collect one million dollars as premiums or else be subsidized by the province. There is no mystery in government insurance.

They can't ·s top accidents and so hundreds of accidents will happen in Manitoba in the next 12 months, wheth er we like it or not, and there'll be so many claims, Again I would point out that insurance is a highly competitive field and the profits are certainly not exorbitant. I happen to know that in 1956 and 1957, most of the insurance companies operating in Manitoba lost substantial monies. I u nderstand that the situation slightly improved in 1958, but I do not know the figures for 1959.

So, Sir, while some may say that in Saskatchewan they have low rates and so forth and so on, I would say that that province is no yardstick. They only have, as the Honourable Member for Selkirk pointed out, one larger city of perhaps 10 0, 000- -nothing like our Winnipeg--and rates will be smaller--less in Saskatchewan than they will be in Manitoba-- much less than they will be in Ontario and Quebec and very much less than they will be in the conjested areas of the eastern states.

There's a third point that I would like to bring out, and that is that this province should be very ca utious about jumping into compulsory state insuranc e when only two other jurisdictions on the North American continent have adopted that system. One is Saskatchewan and the other is the State of Massachusetts. It is true that in two other states in the union, there's compulsory insuranc e, but not compulsory state insurance. Now I know that in Saska tchewan, if you get their little red book or whatever it is, you get glowing reports of how they have conducted the company.

And in fact, they're just as modest about their ability to carry on that insurance, as the Honourable the Member of the CCF is about his speaking. But, Sir, let us hear from the State of Massachusetts, the only other jurisdiction on the North American con tinent of which I am aware where compulsory government insurance is in effect. I take--I read from the Insurance Law Journal-- MR. PAULLEY: I wonder if the honourable member would permit a question? Is Mas sa chusetts' compulsory insurance--does it have the state as the insurer and collect and pay out from the premiums ?

Or is it not a compulsory system under private ownership of the insur ance? MR. SCARTH: I would advise the honourable member that it is a--as far as I'm inform ed--compulsory state insurance, which is as I understand it, the only state in the union which has state insuranc e. If I am to be corrected--but however, this will not affect what I'm going to say, Sir, and ! would like to read from a photostatic copy of an extract from the Insurance Law Journal, July 27th, 1959 issue.

This is what a commission of ten men had to say about compulsory state insuranc e: "The commission found the following; over the three-:year period that Massachusetts' claim frequently was 94% higher than Connecticut; 106% higher than Rhode Island; 133% higher than New Hampshire; 137% higher than New Jersey; 156% higher than Pen sylvania; 220% higher than Maine; and 220% higher than Vermont; (

c) there could be no question but that the inducement to file a claim on the slightest provocation or even on no grounds at all is inherent under a compulsory insurance system, and this statement should not be construed · Page 988 February 26t:h, 1960

(Mr. Scarth, cont•d.) .. as an unfair reflection on the morals of Massachusetts people; (

d) there always has been a tendancy to file a personal injury claim regardless of liability for the acci dent, obviously, on a misguided theory that anyone sustaining injury is automal;ically entitled to indemnification". Now the last point, Sir, is that automobile insurance is the most difficult and the last type of ins urance that any government should go into. It has been said that automobile insuranc e on the· part of the insurer is buying law suits, and perhaps that is a very sound definition, and is all the more reason why a government should avoid it like poison ivy.

But! would like--the Hon ourable Member for Selkirk referred to the Manitoba Commiss ion held in 1944; the last Royal Commis sion held on automobile insurance in Canada I believe was in Nova Scotia in 1957 and I read from the report brought down on September 30th of 1957. Incidentally, Sir, this report was--or the commission was not a political one in that Mr. Justice Parker of Nova Scotia was the first chairman of that commission.

And I might further say that the commission travelled to Manitoba, Saskatchewan, British Columbia, and the State of Maine and Massachusetts, and here is the conclusion to .be found on page 238 of 'the report: "The answer to the question of whether legislation to provide for provincially-owned and operated automobile insurance department or bureau in Nova Scotia is practical and desirable, depends on whether any saving that it might effect for motor vehicles owned in the premium cost would outweigh the increased cost of gov ernment and the inevitable economic disloc ations that would result for the people of the prov ince as a whole.

These costs and dislocations would include several, if not all of the following; (

a) expansion of the administrative branch of the government by creating and financing a govern ment insurance office; (

b) use of funds raised by taxation to ensure solvency of an automobile in surance plan; (

c) direct loss to the provincial treasury of the funds now being received from automobile insurance premiums under the premiums tax act; "--In Manitoba, they are at present 2%. -- "(

d) invasion by government of a field that is now occupied by private enterprise and crea tion therein of a government monopoly; (

e) elimination of a private agency system insofar as automobile insurance is concerned; and (

f) taking the business of adjusting automobile insuranc e claims out of private hands and' placing them in the hands of government employees or appoint ees; (

g) virtually complete displacement of private ensurers from the automobile insurance busi ness, despite their apparent adherence to high ethical standards in the matter of rate-making; and (

h) departing from the established principle of providing compensation for persons who have been injured regardless of fault". And so, Sir, in closing, we have I think, a very adequate system in effect in Manitoba. It has its faults and I suggest again that simplification be sought to recover from the fund. But with that reservation, Sir, I submit that the Civil Service, under Mr. BaiUie's direction, is making a wonderful job of educating people in Manitoba. Perhaps he ts responsible for saving of numerous accidents. I suggest that this good work carry on.

It should be borne in mind that only 3.2 % of the motorists in Manitoba are at present uninsured, and I say, Sir, let us meticulously avoid this very contentious form of insurance which is sought by the resolution. Mr. Speaker put the question. iYffi. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks that the debate be adjourned. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: I might point out that this motion is originally the Leader of the Opposi- tion's motion and when he adjourns the debate, he's closing the debate.

MR . PAULLEY : I understand that if the House understands that, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Proposed resolution standing-- ME. CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, in that case, I would suggest though that the Honour able the Leader of the CCF Party, when it comes up again, would still give anyone else the op portunity of speaking if they wish to do it. MR . SPEAKER: No, he wouldn't have-- MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman--Mr. Speaker, we can't have it both ways, can we? If he's closing the debate then he's closing the debate. MR.

PAULLEY: Apropos of that, the only reason I moved the adjournment of it because it appeared to me as though you were going to put the question, and I'm prepared with the agree ment of the House to withdraw my motion if anybody else desires to take the adjournment. But February 26th, 1960 Page 989

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd. ) .. it was only because it appeared to me that the vote was going to be taken that I adjourned the debate. Again I say that if the Honourable Leader of the Opposition wishes to take the adjournment and providing the House will agree to me withdrawing my motion, I'd be perfectly happy to do that, Mr. Speaker. MR. CAMP BELL: Mr. Speaker, I don't wish the adjournment, and I have no knowledge of anyone wanting to speak on it, and I certainly wasn't--and· I'm sp eaking on a point of order, Mr.

Speaker--! wasn't suggesting that at all, that if the honourable member speaks that he wouldn't close the debate. Of course, it would. I was only suggesting that even though he takes the adjournment at this time that when it comes up again, if somebody who is not in the House at present wanted ·to go--( interjection)--No, it's no more out of order. I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that ln the case of a good many--it happens quite regularly here--of somebody saying I adjourn the debate on behalf of somebody else, and then somebody else speaks. He simply ad journs it. --(i nterjection)--l'm not wanting-- MR.

SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable Member for Logan. The Honourable Member for El mwood. MR. PETERS: . . . . . . the House that this matter stand. MR. SPEAKER: Order stand. Adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honour able Member for St. John's. The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. E. HARRIS (Logan) : Mr. Speaker, my colleague the Honourable Member from St.

John's made a strong case in support of this resolution on Tuesday of this week and I thought that someone from the other parties would have taken up this challenge that the province should take an interest in this problem of housing. But no one did. It is understandable that the Liber al group would leave it alone because in all the years that they have been in power in Manitoba, they paid no attention whatsoever to housing. But I thought that this new government which has been trying to show that it has the interests of the pMple at heart would have som ething to say on this subject. Perhaps they will yet.

I hope so. Since 1945, much money, planning and ex perience has been poured into construction of super-markets , warehouses, bank buildings and insuranc e offices, but bur housing-- one of the key ingredients of health and happiness--has lag ged far behind.

Here are just some of the problems yet to be solved--yet to be faced for that matter, by those in authority: A vast backlog of housing needs from prewar days, with a grow ing population and rapid deterioration �f existing dwellings; a shortage of housing for low and middle class income groups� Rents and mortgages are far beyond the reasonable reach of the majority of Canadian families . Old age pensioners particularly have difficulty in finding good accommodation. Some empires exist in most of our major cities, breeding high profits for a few and social problems for many.

The centre of Canadian cities are dec aying eyesores that clash with our so-called prosperity. The soc ial consequences of bad housing are well known. Ev eryone agrees that something must be done. But betweer. 1950 and 1958 only 5, 587 low-rent al accommodation units were completed. This represents less than one-half of one percent of all units constructed during this period. Yet this is probably the major need in Canada today. From 1945 to the end of 1958 , 1, 266, 816 housing units were built in Canada. Of these, 459 ,3 34 units were completed under the National Housing Act.

This may sound like a lot of housing, but it h�s not even kept pace with the number of new families in need of housing. Where does the responsibility fall ? The primary duty lies with the provinces and municipalities , but because of larger financial resources and its national scope, the Federal Government is certainly in a position to provide guidance, encouragement and financia l support in the fields of planning and housing. The provinces should assist the municipaliti es, and provide for vital regional plan ning. Leadership is now missing.

Now I want to turn briefly to a little pamphlet put out by Citizens ' Forum on the subject •we need more subsidized housing". This is right up to date, being published in February, 1960. We need more subsidized public housing. It would seen that hous ing problems like the poor--we always have them with us . Along with the tide of emigration which began into Canada in the early decades of this century, there arose the complaints of in adequate housing which have persisted in varying degrees until the present time.

By 1944, pressure of the Feder.al Government led to enactment of the National Housing Act, which opened the way to deal with the problem on a national basis . It was not, however, until 1949 that amendments were passed introducing the princip le of subsidy for the first time. It is worthy of note that Canada was the last major industrialized nation to adopt subsidized public housing Page 990 February 26th, 1960

(Mr. Harris, cont'd. ) .. as a national measure. How are the costs of housing projects met in Canada? Projects met in Canada legislation for 149 proVides for Federal Government to supply 75% of the capital investment and annual operating loss, i.f any, and the ProVincial Governm ent to supply the remaining 25%. The latter may share its 25% with the municipalities in any way it sees fit. Under the terms of legislation, som:e nine to ten thousand units have been approved throughout the country. Of this number a total of 6, 225 units have been completed, of which 968 were completed in incompleted proj ects.

These figures issued September 30th, 1959, break down by proVinces as follo ws: Newfoundland, 407; New Brunswick, 488; Nova Scotia, 161; Quebec, 125; Ontario, 4, 446; Saskatchewan, 155; British Columbia, 443 . And I'm afraid, my dear friends , there's nothing in Manitoba. Now isn't that a fine state of affairs for such a prov ince as this ? Here we have a government in here that's supposed to be progressive--let's get on with the business of Manitoba. Well here is one thing that we can get on, Sir.

Finally, I would like to place before you some thoughts regarding the cost of public hous ing taken from the Winnipeg Free Press of January 14th, 1960. The writer of this well-docu mented

article shows that the costs of housing are high, but generally benef icial to all concerned, including the taxpayers. Here are some of the financial facts as contained in this article. W):latis the price? For the sake of illustration, it may be assumed that Greater Winni ped needs at least 1, 000 rental housing units to accommodate families who live in the deplorable slums. This figure and all others to follow may be taken to be conservative 3Stimates. The first prob lem is to clear the land needed for rehousing.

It has been estimated by housing officials that the cost of demolition would be roughly $500 to $750 a unit. Compromise would be $GOO. The cost of clearance would therefore total $600, 000. The Federal Government pays 50% of these costs; the remainder is shared by the participating municipalities and the ProVincial Government, usu ally on a 50-50 basis. A typical row-housing project which is the most likely endeavour in Winni peg would cost from $10, 000 to $1 2, 000 a unit. Once again a compromise may be made at $11, 000. The capital cost of the housing would be $11 million.

The Federal Government will assume 75% of this cost, leaving the municipality and the Provincial Governm ent to share the remainder. At this point, the cost of construction for a thousand-unit housing project would be $11, 600, 000, of which the municipality and the province must pay $3,0 50, 000. The econom ic rent for such a project is estimated at roughly $80 per unit, but it is generally conceded that the majority of families could not pay so high a figu re.

An average subsidy of $20 a month per unit is not an over-estimation; this makes an annual subsidy of $240, 000, of which the Federal Government would pay 75%. This leaves the city an annual bill for subsidizing of $60, 000. It would be unfair of course to imply that this is the total balance sheet. Against these costs must be weighed many intangibili.ties such as reduction of welfare costs for the families involved; the probable decrease in crime; and the stimulati.on that better living conditimm might give to families who otherwise remain destitute.

On a more concrete basis, such slum clearance stabilizes and increases property values in surrounding areas, and since the municipality in cludes full taxation in the cost of amortizing the project, it may be argued that the city's share of rental subsidy is more than balanced by the higher tax revenue fro m the im proved property.

Therefore, we urge this government to establish a diVision of housing so that the cities and municipalities and various interested voluntary organizations who are interested in im proved housing for the citizens would be encouraged to proceed with a program of housing development under the terms of the National Housing Act. The machinery has already been set up for this purpose. It is up to the Government of Manitoba to take the lead in this matter in this part of Canada. I thank you gentlemen. MR. D. M. STANES (St.

James): I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Hamiota that the debate be adjourned. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. :MR. SPEAKER: Proposed resolution of the Honourable' Member for Brokenhead. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, ni'ight I ask for theiimii.J.lgence of this House to insert three or four words in the resolution as I read it? · MR. SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have the tmanimous consent of the House to do this? MR. ROBLIN: I think we should hear them first, Sir:. MR. SCHREYER: •....• Mr.

Speaker, in the third paragraphr-secondline of the third February 26th, 1960 Page 991

(Mr. Scbreyer, cont'd. ) .. paragraph, I would insert the word "tax" before the word "exempti on". In the fourth and final paragraph--the fourth line of the final paragraph, I would insert the three words after the word "land"--I would insert these three words, "pension inc ome excluded" . And the final insert, Mr. Speaker, in the same line--the fourth line, I would insert the word "farm " before the word "buildings". I wish to thank the House for this privilege, Mr. Speaker. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Elmwood the following resolution;

whereas in the province of Manitoba there are many farms and market gardens where the land is not conti guous; and

whereas such parcels of land, although not contiguous, are very often in near prox imity; and

whereas under

section 10 11 in subsection 2 of the Municipal Act, tax exemptions on farm buildings apply only to those cases where there are 40 or more contiguous acres of farm land, and four or more contiguous acres of market garden land, therefore

be it resolved that this government give consideration to the advisability of amending

section 10 11 of the Municipal Act so that all farmers and market gardeners whose chief source of income is from the land be exempt from taxation on their farm buildings. --(interjection)--yes , I'm sorry, pension income excluded--be exempt from taxation on their farm buildings, irrespec tive of acreage. Mr. Speaker presented the motion. :MR . PAULLEY: There's the three words following "land" there. MR. SPEAKER: Oh, yes. :MR . PAULLEY: "Pension income excluded" from the source of income. :MR .

SPEAKER: Whose chief source of income is from farm land, pension income ex cluded, be exempt from taxation on their farm buildings, irrespec tive of acreage. Are you ready for the question? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, first I should apologize for the rather clumsy manner in which I presented this resolution. I suppose no one can accuse me of being pedantic after this. This resolution as most of us here will recall; is quite similar in the principle it's trying to achieve as the resolution which was presented in this Chamber last March by the now-Minis ter of Municipal Affairs.

I listened to the Member for Manitou--or Pembina rather, the now Minister of Municipal Affairs with great interest at that time and I not only-sympathized with what he was saying but came to realize that the situation was such that some action should be taken in this Chamber to help remedy a rather undesirable state of affairs as respects munici pal taxation.

I cannot see any justification for the present municipal tax act as it applies to people who have more than the required number of acres in order to exempt, but because the land happens to be in two blocks or three blocks all within a very near proximity, one block to the other. But because it's not contiguous! they must--they do not qualify for the tax exemption. I feel that there isn't--there is something rather unfair here, or unequitable perhaps.

Because why should one individual who happens to have his land in one block be exempt from taxation, while his neighbour perhaps who happens to have an equal number of acres and who depends just as exclusively on agriculture, whether they be special crops is not the point here--who depends just as much on the land for his living;' but who happens to have it--his land in two or three blocks , must pay tax on his farm buildings? And I cannot see any reason for this being allowed to continue.

The Minister of Municipal Affairs, when he was speaking at that time, said this-- I would just like to quote one sentence--'' Now I think it seems unfair that because that word "contiguous" is in the Act, it does cause trouble, because possibly that's the only buildings they have, and if they were on the 40 acres, they would not have to pay". And I think the word "con tiguous" is very severe in here because there have been cases where a farmer has bought a strip of land a few yards wide from somebody else, just so it would be contiguous.

Well, he's got a point there and allied to that I would like to mention to the House that along the Red River, especially on the east side of the Red, there are quite a number of market gardeners. Now al most every one of them has more than the mini mum requirement of 40 acres to qualify for the exemption, but they do not happen to have it in one block. Most of them happen to have their land split--not very far apart but split nevertheless. And because of that situation, they do not qualify for this exemption. How can you justify that, Mr. Speaker? It seems rather difficult.

I mentioned that this resolution is very similar in principle to that which was introduced last session by the now-Min ister. There i.s, however, one aspect which differs, and that is the operative paragraph. I don't know whether this means too much, but the resolution at that time called for this House to Page 992 February 26th, 1960

�· Schreyer, cont'd. ) .. instruct the Minister--! am not asking for that here. · I am merely asking this government to consider the advisability of amending this certain

section of the Muni cipal Act and because it differs in this one respect. I hope that this resolution will be able to re ceive the support of friends in the Liberal benches . I'm not sure, but it seems to me that they have rather objected to that operative

section of the former resolution. Perhaps this one is more accep table. Then too, I would like, Mr. Speaker, to raise the matter of pension income as it affects

section 10 11. This has been raised in the House at least three or four times since I have been here and I don't know how many times before I came to this Assembly. It is a question which deserves our attention because it seems rather odd--if not ridiculous--that people who upon coming of age in order to receive old age pension, also at that time become liable for the payment of tax on their farm buildings.

I think that it's rather important that I did include- insert those three words "pension income excluded", because I do not feel that pensioners should have to start paying a tax on their buildings when they start to receive their pension, which would exceed in some cases their income from the land. Well, I don't know how much more I can say on this resolution, Mr. Speaker, except to say that the government, I believe, promised to take this matter of pension income as it affects municipal taxes--promised to take this under. advtsement. At least I have here--I did not bother, Mr. Speaker to check this.

How ever, I take the word of the Honourable Mem

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-2-29
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 2nd hansardpdf 29.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	347182fe4c1733eb4f3c0363dd0dae5cd0e994e6

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