Volume 3 PROVfNCE OF NEWFOUNDLAN.O THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDAY, MAY 15, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE-JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 71

May 15, 1974 The House met at 3:00 P.M. ~!r. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape 1642 (afternoon) NOTICE OF MOTION: HON._ W. __ DOODY J~ISTCR OF INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT): IB-1 A

long title here. I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act to Ratify, Confirm And Adopt An Agreement Entered Into Between The Government And Pyramid Mobile Homes

(1959) Limited With Respect To The Co111111encement And Carrying On Of A Business For Manufacture And Distribution Of Mobile Homes Within The Province, And To :Make Statutory Provisions Respecting Matters Connected Therewith.· The title is longer than the bill. ANSWERS JO QUESTIONS FOR WIIIC!l NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: !!QJ.'l __ ._E_:_, MAYNARD (NINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTS): Mr. Speaker, I have the answers to questions all asked by the honourable member for Bonavista North, questions No. 2, 23, 25, 37, ~l, 47, 48 and 49. I do not know what dates on the Order Paper but these are the numbers.

OFAL QUESTIONS:_ FR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a few questions for the Minister of Municipal Affairs. So, I will polish him off first and get him out of the way. lfould the minister inform the House if he has received representation either in writing or in person from the Wabana Town Council for a request for financial assistance to maintain the essential services in the town? ~..:. !LR . V. EARLE (?-!INISTER OF Ml11HCIPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSING): Yes , Mr. Speaker, I had quite a long meeting with the town council of Wabana yesterday. My officials were there for a somewhat longer time after I had to leave.

The situation of Wabana is a pretty serious one as far as their finances are concerned and the operations of the town. What we agreed to yesterday - there is a report coming up with recommendations,! hope . on the whole situation over there including the water system and everything else. In the meantime I do not like 6209

:t-!ay 14, 1974 Tape 1642 IB-2 to use the word but literally what we are doing is we are baling out the town of Wabana with loans sufficient to meet their iIIDllediate commitments. Somf of their bank loans are being presse~ and other bills payable and so on. We are doing this but it is estimated that within t,:o weeks we will have a proper picture of the situation at Wabana. Then we will be able to come to some conclusions as to how to deal with it. MR. NE_A]l...!__ !fr .

Speaker, a supolementary question, Could the minister inform the House if the members of the town council who are threatening to resign if they do not get fast action on this situation,•if they will hang on for two weeks until they get the minister's report or his decision? MR. EARLE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, that is what they indicated yesterday. While I was there there was no talk of the council resigning. They did feel that they were in a desperate predicament but nobody said that they were going to resign.

I left the meeting with the impression that they would hold on until they found out what we could do for them. t~"......:'IBARY :_ Mr. Speaker, would the minister inform the House if the town council of Bonavista has notified the minister's department ' that four members of the town council have resigned because of a dispute between the four councillors and the mayor of the town? ~~ E@._E_: Hr. Speaker, no. I am actually waiting to hear from the Town of Bonavista. The only thing I know is what I have heard on the radio and in the press. Normally when councillors resign, they send me a notice of their resignation.

So far I have not received anything official from Bonavista. I presume that it may be somewhere in the mail but I have no knowledge of why they resigned or what the reasons are. I am waiting to hear from them. MR. NEARY: Nr. Speaker, would the minister inform the House if he has received a request from the Town of Mount Pearl for action on a request to pay the members of the town council of Mount Pearl? ~~~~~~ Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have had this request several times. In fact ~.aunt Pearl is one of the few, in fact I think it is the only 6210

May 14, 1974 Tape 1642 town that has been pressing for payment of councillors. We have refused. It is a precedent which we are not prepared to set up IB-3 at this time. I feel that we may have to look at this another year, compensation for councillors,but at the present time we are not prepared to do it because we cannot just do it for Mount Pearl. We would have to make it a general application if we did it. MR. NEAr~Y__;_ Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question: Would the minister inform the House if he notified the town council of the decision that he just announced here in the House or will this bE' the first indication they have of this? Is there a breakdown in co1I1111unications benJeen the minister and the town council? }~-'- _E~~__;_ To the best of my knowledge, ~fr. Speaker, there is no breakdown. We are in freQuent communication with the Town of ~•ount Pearl. In fact I think I see them more than any other council. This matter has been discussed a number of times with them. They are quite aware of our stand on it.

I do not think they need to be informed any further. MR. NEARY: ~tr. Speaker, would the same minister inform the House what has happened to the 100 lots that I understand are in the second phase of the Virginia Waters Development down here - I think it is called Virginia Park • These lots were supposed to go on , sale, in March I think it was. Ny understanding is that they have not gone on sale yet. Would the minister indicate to the House why these lots have not been placed on the market . What is causing the delay? ~!l._._ ~_!:_ Mr.

Speaker, I do not have the information at hand at the moment on that particular one but I think it has something to do with a question with the city council. I will get the information for the honourable member. There is some holcJ up. There have been some question lately of the ability of the City of St. John's to service all of these developments. I think there may be discussions with the council going on. ~~ NEARY~ A supplementary question, Sir: Would the minister also find out when it is expected to put these building lots up for sale? 6211

May 14, 1974 Tape 1642 IB-4 When the minister gets the information,will h~ also find out the date that these building lots are going to be offered for sale? MR. EARLE: Right. MR. NEAR~ I would like to switch over now, Sir, to the }<inister of Tourism down here. I would like to ask the minister -.rhat he has against Mr. Ed Boyd of Quality Tours who has been trying to get an appointment with the minister for the last six months? !-fR. SPJ;_~R:_ That question could be placed on the Order Paper. !1R~ NE~Y~ Well, Sir, maybe I could ask the minister if he has received a- request from Mr.

Boyd in the last six months for an appointment. MR. T. DOYLE (MINISTER OY TOt1>.ISM): To the best of r.iy knowledge, Mr. Speaker, I have not. MR. !<EARY: !,Jell , is the minister aware that }fr. Boyd has made a public statement that he has been trying to get to see the minister for six months? MR. DOYLE: No. ~- NEAR)'...:_ The minister is not aware he made a public statement? Well, I would suggest to the minister he read the morninp. newspaper.

Sir, I would like to ask the Minister of 1-'canpower and Industrial Relations if he has yet received a brief from the ~ewfoundland Federation of Labour. }!!l_~•~ -ROUSSEAU (MINISTER OF MANPOWER IND INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS): That is not the brief' by the way from the Newfoundland Federation of Labour. Actually the thing originally was scheduled for .Monday and the releases went out because of the difficulties involved. I am only there as an accompanist. The honourable the ?-tinister of Justice will be receiving a brief from the Police Brotherhood Association,with the t,ewfoundland Federation of Labour.

I will also be present at the meeting. The earlier reports in the news media suggested that it was this brief. However, subsequent reports in the last day or so suggested that it was the annual Federation of Labour brief,which it is not. It is merely another brief and I am glad to have the opportunity to clarify that. So, the annual federation brief - the 6212

May 14, 1974 Tape 1642 IB-5 request has been made. I would anticipate sometime in the next month or two that the Federation of Labour will have the opportunity to present their annual brief. HR. NEARY: I thank the honourable minister for his answer, Sir. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am not quite sure if the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation is responsible for day care centers or not. Would the l!linister indicate whether - is the }linister of Social Services coming in the House today? Not coming today? Well, I will save that question for tomorrow, Sir. I think I have another question for the Minister of Education.

Ile is not going to be in his seat today so I will have to postpone that one until tomorrow. The Minister of Firance is not going to be in his seat either. Well, Sir, there are only fifty per cent , half the ministers in their seats. How can we ask questions and get answers and get infounation for the people of this province? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The honourable member for Labrador South. MR. !-1.ARTIN: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that we did not have a chance to question certain ministers in the estimates, I wonder if this question might be in order.

I would like to direct a question to the honourable the Minister of Fisheries. Whether that minister can inform the House if his department plans any expenditures in Labrador during the forthcoming fiscal year? HR. SPEAKER: If the honourable minister wish to answer, I shall -- ·------ permit it but it seems as if it was a question that should have been asked on the estimates. MR. H. COLLINS (MINISTER OF FISHERIES): Mr. Speaker, they did not wish to do it that way,obviously. That is a pretty general question. I do not know if the honourable member might have something specific in mind. MR. MARTIN: Mr.

Speaker, I arn not questioning Your Honour's ruling but I would like a point of clarification,whether or not we did have the opportunity to question the minister during the estimates debate. This is really the whole point. MR. SPEAKER: Whether or not the opportunity literally arose to 6213

May 15, 1974 Tape 1642 IB-6 ask questions on the Department of Fisheries in the estiipates is perhaps not the point. There were seventy-five hours allocated and the budget estimates have heen dealt with. ~o, it is really out of order to ask questions oertaining to the estimates as such. HON. W. W. }!AR_SHALL(MillISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO): If I may on that, Mr. Speaker. Just one moment,if I may. AN HONOllRABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. MARSHALL: No, it is not an appeal. The point of the matter is, "ir. Speaker, that MR. W. ROWE: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. now we are involved in? MR.

MARSHALL: All right, on the point of order. Is this a debate I will say what it is. That is that if anyone wish to ask me questions, thj! question peri~d is open for all questions as far as the government is concerned, Y.r. Speaker. }'R. SPEAKER: I did permit the honourable Minister of Fisheries to answer the question if he wanted to. 1'R. CO~LNS...:. Well, YI. Speaker. as I indicated, the honourable member asked if we ,are doing anything on Labrador this summer. He made some reference to the estimates as well.

Now, the fact that the Fisheries estimates were not debated in the House, as everybody knows, is that the honourable gentlemen opposite decided to spend all the time alloted to them on three departments, Rural .Dev~lopment, Finance and Social Services I believe it was. It was not that we did not want to discuss our estimates. We are quite proud of 'them in fact. We have more money in fisheries this year than ever before in Newfoundland. Please goodness.by the time the season rolls around where we can do things in Labrador, we will be doing more down there than ever we have done before. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR.

SPEAKER: Today being Private Members' Day, we shall continue with motion (3) as it appears on today's Order Paper. I think the honourable }finister of Municipal Affairs and Housing adjourned the debate last Private ~!embers' Day. YR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, when the Rouse closed last Wednesday I had 6214

Hay 15, 1974 Tape 1642 just started to say something about the motion by my friend,the honourable member for St. John's South,on the amendment to the Family Homes Expropriation Act,with particular reference to the concept of a home for a home. IB-7 This statement,broadly speaking,of a home for a home,has been thrown around rather loosely, I think, without much concept by most people as to what is really meant or what the intention is. It is something which nobody can argue against. It is really a motherhood resolution.

I am sure that everyhody feels that any person who is dispossessed of his home is entitled to another place in which to live of a standard which is satisfactory. MR. NEARY: Is there a quorum in the House, Sir1 Could we have a quorum call? HR. SPEAKER: Would the clerk count the House please? We have a quorum. ~.!~ Mr. Speaker, I hope the opposition will take it a bit easy this afternoon because if this is going to be the pattern, we may as well continue from here on calling quorums and probably we will not have anything to say.

I can use up three minutes of the time, ad infinitum, but it does not do very much for the House. MR. EVANS: Inaudible. !!_R. SPEAKER: Order, please'. ~_!R~EARLE: In any case, Nr. Speaker, as I started to say, the concept of a home for a home in my opinion has been oversimplified. Nobody can disagree with the argU111ents in principle that a person who loses his home should be compensated and replaced with a satisfactory home.

Now, the unfortunate thing which happened,as was pointed out last Wednesday, that under the urban development schemes which took place some years ago,because of our partnership or the government of that day partnership with the federal government on these schemes, they had to go along and contend wi~h federal regulations on this subject. No way would the federal government participate in these schemes at that time. mainly the Shea Heights Development and the Mundy Pond, on that basis of a home for a home. 6215

r<ay 15, 1974 Tape 1642 IB-8 They agreed under their legislation that there should be what was in their opinion adequate compensation for the houses. They wer~ also compelled wider their legislation to find rental acco11D1todation for those people who were dispossessed of their homes. Now, I think it is necessary for us to draw attention,in discussing this sub.iect, to two particular different fields altogether in compensating people for their homes and the circumstances that bring them about.

For instance. on the Shea Heights and to some extent in the Mundy Pond area and Corner Brook West,which were urban development schemes, these were literally schemes devised to clear out unsatisfactory housing, housing which in many cases was not fit for people to live in. Actually under the federal legislation these houses could have been completely demolished, the people fcund rental accommodation and that was that. This is what could have been done.

I think in all sanity and with some feeling towards the people concerned, the people who were involved with it at that time went further than that and tried to compensate those who were dispossessed to some degree. Now, it is a moot point and a point which could be debated as to whether the compensation for these homes was adequate or not. Most of this happened some years ago and there were in all some eighty-four homes expropriated in that area. These varied in an assessed value from as low as being worth $400 each up to a high of $13,000.

Now, WF are talking perhaps seven, eight years ago or maybe longer; the value of homes had not accelerated to the point that they have today. At that time this was appraised as the fair value of these homes. Literally when one gets down to a house which is appraised at only being worth a few hundred dollars, it is literally nothing much more than a tilt or one-room shack or something of that sort. There are still outstanding on the Shea Heights four cases only which have not been settled. The homes in these cases are valued by the assessors from $605 to a high of $2,960.

They are poor types of homes, verv inferior homes and under today's standard, not 6216

May 15 , 1974 Tape 1642 l.B- 9 worth very much at all. In areas such as that.when one is literally going in and clearing out an area that needs to be demolished, one comes up against all sorts of peculiar circumstances. They find, for instance, such cases as they ran into of one old lady living alone, well over eighty years old• ·wbo simply refused to accept good rental accommodation. She wanted to stay in that one room. She was not capable nor healthy enough to look after a home if she had a proper home. Yet she insisted that that was her h0111e and that is where she wanted to stay.

There is no tr1oney in the i1orld, no matter what that lady was given, that would compensate h.er for tht disrupt:lon she felt she was undergoing. Similarly there was another case of a person who - I am just quoting a f.ew instances to show the sort of difficulties we are up against. There is another case where a person seemed to be quite satisfied to have her house assessed and paid for at the value which it was assessed for but it turned out 6217 ,. ,-

May 15, 1974 Taoe 1643 (Afternoon) PK - 1 that she had a well so she wanted to be comoensated for the loss of a well. So they offered to compensate her hy hooking her uo to the water line, so that she would have a steady su1>oly of water. She agreed to this but she still wanted compensation for the well. The reason she wanted compensation for the well was that her neighbour next door had heen hooked up to the water line and he did not have a well.

So she felt she should be naid for the well she had because the fella~, next door got compensation anyhow and he did not have a well. ~o you came up against all this sort of arguments. Whether they are logical or not is a matter of question but in these cases to take the home for a home l:lte.rally, on the surface, when you are dealing with circumstances of that kind you come up against tremendously Ynotty problems.

For instance, if vou exprooriate a fellow ' s home who has been consistently lazy, has not put a bit of paint on the house for vears, has lived in this shack and is quite satisfierl , it may he valued at $500.00 or $fi00.0(), you would take him out of that and you put him in perhaps what;: is a $20,000 home, the fellow next door to him who is not quite at! had,his house is liveable and he decides that he 1.s l!<'inr, to stay there,hut he does not get a home.

So how doe1, he feel when he sees h:ls huddy next door go off and move into a $20.00() home and .1ust because his house happens to he a fraction better and he is satisfied to he left there he gets nothing at all? So it is not an easy suh1ect, In fact, ,it is a very, verv difficult one. The federal government recognize th:ls and we mo~t certainly recop,nize it, At the time we are caught right in the middle of it.

Then on top of that public feeling runs high, I remember something about it, it is not too clear in my mind now but I know that there was suppose to be at the time a hundred low-rental apartments built up there for people who were really put out. They were suppose to get one hundred of these subsidized rental apartments on the Shea Heights. At the time.the late Father Shea, after whom the Heights are 6218

May 15, 1974 Tape 1643 (Afternoon) PK - 2 now named, ohjected very strongly indeed to the idea of rental housing. He did not like it. He was deadly opposed to it. The people of "The Brow' ,as it was called then,all got behind Father Shea and they said; ' No way are we going to accent rental housing", although it was of a standard much better than that in which they were living. The result was that instead of one hundred low-rental houses being built forty-three were built. This went along for some years and now I find the demand from Shea Heights for rental housing is simnly terrific.

They are asking us when we are going to build the other fifty or sixty. They want them the day before yesterday. F.verybody up there who have seen the experience of the people who moved into these rental houses is now saying, "What sort of fools were we? We would be much better off if we had accepted that.• · On the surface it seems crazy because these low rental houses are costing today possibly as high as $30,000 each,per unit. Looking back now,hindsight is always better than foresight.

But if you look back and you paid those people who were exnropriated for a matter of $300.00, $400.00, $500.00 or $600.00 had they been paid $20,000 at the time.the government of the day would be better off because what they had to do was put probably $30,000 into providing rental homes and from here on the cost of these rental homes obviously is going up and they will he costing more. So it is a naughty question every way you look at it. Now the other question which is an entirely different one is in the case of highways or parks or other imnrovements around an area where people are dispossessed of their homes.

They have a moderately good hoine in which they live and they are quite satisfied and because of public works of some sort (This is not slum clearance, this is just the fact of perhaps locating a road or a park or some other convenienceJ they lose their home. Naturally they feel very, very bitter about it. They, I think in anybody's books,should be supplied with a home equal on every standard to the one that they were forced 6219

~lay 15, 1974 Tape 1643 (Afternoon) PK - 3 out of, I think prohably all of us including the federal ROvernment authorities and ourselves, and the provincial government, have grown out of this terribly difficult experience we have had w:rtti Shea Heights and with Mundy Pond and with Corner Brook West, to realize· something has to be done in cases where these difficult problems are to be faced I think r,robably the i,rime example of that now, one of whicl'\ this government are very proud, is that they have nersuaded the federal government in the case of the Gros Horne ParJ, to come in with ,this in piving these peonle really adeouate compensation for their homes. For instance, under the

schedule which is beinl!' arranged - perhaps it would be interesting to the House if I read some of it, ln the Gros Morne Park Agreement, under i,art (I), the relocation compensation, this is the tyoe of thin,>; that is goin;:,; on noP as compared to the Shea Heights: The compensation to he paid to an o~mer or a leasee or heinp; located from a park community to a nlace outside of the houndaries of the pronosed national park shall be calculated in accordance with the following principles: In the case of an ~wner,at his or her option, either (1) an amount equal to the appraised value of that o,,mer's dwelling, land and any anartment, outbuidlings or sheds; or (2) an amouat equal to the cost of a buildin~ lot and the construction of a dwelling thereon as followia: (

a) two bedroom house,if the owner have two children or less, (

h) a three bedroom house,if the owner havethree or four children, (

c) four bedroom house,if the owner havefive or seven children and (

d) a five bedroom homie if the owner haveeight or more children. ''In the case of a leasee; a land grant, a forgivable mortgage and a mortgage bearing no interest,so that he can provide himself with a good home.'' In addition to compensation mentions in Sections (1) and (2),the owner or leasee as the case may be shall be entitled to the followinr compensation where applicable: Compensation to 6220

May 15, 1974 Tape 1643 (Afternoon) PK - 4 cover the cost of searching for a new house, the renayment of expenses incurred in removal of household and related effects or grant in lieu of these expenses, compensation for loss of income, incentive paymen s as deemed anpropriate bv Newfoundland to encourap,e persons to move to. communities where they are better ahle to pursue their occunation, compensation for severance, navment for woodlots, navment for redundant assets. 'lorne l'ark goes.

Now this is how this agreement with the Gros It is a verv enlightened agreement and a far better agreement, unrler which the urban renewal schP.mes could buy. ~•R. NEARY: A !!;ood Liheral Government in Ottawa, Sir. "R. EARLF: It happened to take the local Progressive Conservative Government to get such an agreement. In the Gros Marne Park negotiations this was a tough negotiation and this government have gotten these enlighted agreements from the federal governr.ent but it was done with considerable struggle.

I do not think most people realize when they talk ahout the house for a house concept that under the Old Family Expropriation Act, if a residence were condemned as unfit for human habitation,even under that it was nossible to throw a person out and demolish the house completelv and give them no compensation whatever. The only thing that had to he provided was rental acconanodation of a suitable standarrl,and in many, many cases the people would not accept rental accommodation. I am .1ust oointing out these factR, Mr. Speaker, to show some of the complications which are involved in this type of an operation.

Fortunately, I think that the federal government are now seeing the light and there will be, so we are told, no more of these urban development schemes. The Shea Heights thing was a nightmare. We are still wrestling with the Corner Brook West one and the Mundy Pond one,and hopefully -we will have this all cleaned up within a matter of a year. 6221

May 15, 1974 Tane 1643 ~Afternoon) PK - 5 But I sunpose it comes down to.this,that with the type of territory that is on the Shea Heights, on the Southside Hills and in Corner Brook Hest it would in the long run probably be far cheaper to take everybody off those sites completely and build for them new houses in another area. This :Is somethinp. that we have learned from experience,but it is too late to undo what ttas heen done now. Therefore, I think, we can only learn from experience. The fact is that these schemes are not quite completed as yet , they are ranidly coming to the conclusion .

As I pointed out, Shea He:! ghts has only four case outstanding and these will be. settled shortly. Corner Brook Hest has a few more. But you can imagine the sort of shimozzle you would get into now i~ you put this legislation into effect immediately and had to open un all the comoensation and all of those schemes which go hack over a number of years. How would the neople i,,ho have settled and to this noint apparentl v have been satisfied,feel if thev found that the remaininp. few cases were given good homes at today's nrices?

If you took the rema:lninp, cases and took them out now you would probabl y have to house them at a cost of someth :l nP. over $30,000 each,in a proper home. Whilea fellow in Corner Brook or Shea Heights or anywhere else , if he seP. these last remnants r,t: t he ~r: heme getting that type of ,1 home,I think he is going to think twice about what he got when he accented $400.00 comoensation for hi s house and got literally nothing but a rental apartment in which to live. I feel myself, Mr.

Speaker, that these schemes which are now concluded, which are now about to be concluded with the federal p:overnment, must be brought to conclusion and then we can revert back to the home for a home idea as eXflressed in the Family Expropriation Act as it orig:!nally was but perhaps 1,Tfth some improvements. I feel, Mr. Speaker. that the whole exnropriation legislation of the government needs revamping and redrafting. I am not satisfied with it,that it is completely fair in all of its concepts. I think that 1-•e ~rill have to look at this legislation 6222

May 15, 1974 Tape 1643 (Afternoon) PK - 6 and revamp the whole thing along modern lines. Everybody has to admit that in the field of housing in particular, concepts of what were applied eight or ten years ago are no longer valid today. Certainly prices cannot be comoared or the cost of doing this sort of thing. So I think we have to update our legislation and bring into it some more favourable aspects, if you would like to call it that, so that there need not be this continual dissatisfaction on the part of people who through one circumstance or another are forced to lose their homes.

I am goinr, to recommend to my colleagues that it just has to be done, that we have a look at this legislation and see if we cannot uodate it properly. Now the debate as it took place the other day developed into a full-scale debate on housing generally. With the permission of the House,although it is not strictly on the subject of this motion, I might enlarge a bit on that subject. Actually it was nretty fully covered in the debate on my estimates and in the comments which have been made so far on the budget speech.but basically - MR. NEARY: Mr. S~eaker, on a ooint of order.

The minister had ample opportunity, Sir, during the discussion on the estimates,to have a broad~ranging, wide-ranging discussion on housing and the minister did not do it , Sir. I would submit now, S1r, that he be not permitted to do it under the rules of this House. Otherwise, ~-r. Speaker, the rules of the House apply to this side as well as that side, that we be given the same privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR. MARSHALL: We hear this again and again, Mr. Speaker, the rules apply always equally to both sides.

The fact of the matter is that when this was debated last Wednesday there was a certain amount of latitude given above and beyond the resolution itself with respect to the housing matter. If the honourable Member for Bell Island, I do not know whether he was in attendance or whether he was not, obviously he was not listening at the time the speaker on the opposite side, the Leader of the Opposition,ueed this latitude for the prupoee of talking 6223

}lay 15, 1974 Tape 1643 (Afternoon) PK - 7 about housing generally. The Hon. Minister of Municpal Affairs is wandering no farther than debatehas already taken now, I submit he is being very relevant. The honourable member, I spoke and he spoke.He cannot resist 'himself. He has got to come out like a child and have the last word. Now get up - MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a,s usual the minister could not take his seat without being nasty, getting the renutation of nr. Nastine,e;s in this House but, Sir, last week .if Your Honour should remember, the member who introduced this resolution, the Member for St.

John's South.sort of wandered, was irrelevant to the resolution,and Your Honour allowed the same latitude to the Leader of the Opposition. It was by 11n1tual aF:reement, if I remember, Sir. I only missed ~ne sitting of this House so far and that was the nirht before last . It was done bv mutual agreement, Sir. Rut now,s;ince then, Mr.

Speaker, the minister resuonsible for housing had had amnle npportunity to • put forward his programme,and he did not take advantaF:e of it, Sir, because he was gagged and muzzled the same as we were on this side of the House by the limit that was nlaced on the debate hv the nasty !Unister ~,ithout Portfolio. l-tR. EARLE : Mr. Speaker, on that point of order: This is absolute rubbish,as the honourable Member for Bell Island knows. The debate last Wednesday, when they could use it to their o~'ll pur!]oses, it was extremely free-swinging; everything in the field of housing was talked about.

The opposition had aTT1ple opportunity to point out their views on housing. Now because it happens to he another private members' day and we have an ~pportunity to give our side of the story,they are attempting to cut off debate so that only one side of the picture comes across. I think in all essence, :!-Ir. Speaker, it would be only fair if I were given the same opportunity. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: (DUNPHY) : Order please! AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. 6224

May 15, 1974 Tape 1643 (Afternoon) PK - 8 "IR. SPEAKER (DUNPHY): Order please! The Chair does nermit latitude, some latitude in debate. The points that the honourable Member for Bell Island was trying to make there,! cannot reverse the situation for the simnle reason that I do not recall the preceding days that the Hon. !<intster of ~unicpal Affairs had spoken or what on. However. the orinciole of this resolution or the guts of it centers around a house for a house.

Possibly to establish his point, he may have to go outside or slightly outside of the rules of relevancy to establish that point and the Chair would permit latitude in that direction . We shall see as we proceed. Thank you! MR. EARLE: Well, Mr. S~eaker, I will try and be as relevant as I can and certainly not repetitious. Surely the honourable Member for Rell Island now will have no doubts at all about running for Leadershio . He has at least one supporter,which is one more than we thought he had. MR. NEARY: He gets completely overcome. He gets carried away. AN HON. ME!'IBER: We are all hoping ''Steve' • MR.

NEARY: However, perhaps by the time I am finished speaking he will have two,but the second one will not be myself. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. EARLE: Anyhow, l"r. Speaker, on the subject of housing it is related to this home for a home concept, because if you are going to talk about a home for a home you have then to talk about housing in general and what type of housing and 1~hat programmes there are for housing and what the government can do or will try and do about housing, to give peonle a home for a home if that is the term in which you want to use it.

The whole question of housing today is literally a conundrum of the highest possible order. It is mainly due to several factors, which quite simply put is the very extremely high, outrageously high cost of housing to the average citizen. The question has been asked on all sides 1right ac~oss Canada, North America and everywhere else, 6225

May 15, 1974 Ta9e 1643 (Afternoon) why has the cost of hous_inp. accelerated and why is it going up at this rate and what if anythin& can iovernments do ahout it? PK.,. 9 I 9ointed out the other day that the Liberal Government in 0ttawa recentlv came down on thiA very subject,thar the y have not been ahle to cope ~n.tr. it. They are accused of not bcinp. ahle to cope 1,,ith the housin. g orohlem.

When the Government of Canada , with the multi- millions and billions of dollars behind them, cannot cooe with the hnusing problem ,I cannot see how a province such as this, which is one of the less affluent 1'rovince s of Canada,can cope fully wit h its housin g probleM. nut, nevert:heles" , }1r. Speal-er, that 6226

¥~y 15, 1974 Tape 1644 IB-1 does not mean to say that we are not trying to do our best to meet the needs of our people in housing. Now, the prime and first need in a housing programme is land on which to put a house. That is such a simple statement it goes without saying. There must be a very large programme of land assembly. To begin with, the price of land has accelerated out of all reason, first of all because there was not sufficient land available.

It is the bounded duty of government to try to provide and cut down on this exorbitant cost of land by supplyi11g an adequate number of building -lots in strategic places so that at least there will be serviced land on which people can build their homes. We had some success with this, not as much as I would like to see,but last year when we offered lots in the Mount Pearl-Newtown,on which we deliberately took off $1,000 per lot to try to bring it down to a half reasonable figure, there were 200 lots put up for sale one week. There was a lineup waiting for them.

After several weeks there were only approximately 160 lots sold. One of the local builders c01lllllented in the press - MR. SPEAKER (}W.. DUNPHY): If the honourable gentleman will permit, I must bring it to his attention that he has approximately one minute left to debate. MR. EARLE: All right, ¥r.

Speaker, in one minute , the problems of housing are multifold but they are due to this; that everybody that is connected with housing from the fellow who sells the land to the fellow who builds to the chap who does the conveyances to the real estate agent who trys to sell it, does not appear to be interested in bringing the price of houses down. It is like a story that appeared in the"Toronto Globe and Mail" a few days ago,where a lady brought a house for $50,000. Originally that house sold for $15,000.

It was then resold for $20,000 and resold for $25,000 and resold for $30,000 and eventually resold for $50,000. When she went to a real estate agent to complain about it, he said, "Madam, that house is not for living in, that house is for selling.'' This is the whole story behind it today. It is greed, avarice and profiteering 6227

nay 15, 1974 Tape 1644 IB-2 on a large scale. I think that this is something all governments will have to take a very close look at. MR. W. ROWE: Sir, I rise to support the resolution proposed by the honourable member for St. John's South. I did not discern from the minister's words as to whether the government is supporting it or not. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: The government is supporting the resolution. MR. W. ROWE: Supporting the resolution? Very good!

I am glad to hear that, Sir, because following along with what the minister had to say I must say I got the impression that he was against it or something, I do not know. He started bringing up peripheral problems. He started bringing up sort of one per cent cases, I thought to be arguments against the ninety-nine per cent'normal situation. I am glad that he has set the matter straight now and that the government is going to support the resolution.

This will mean,hopefully,that debate on this matter can be shortened somewhat and we can get on with some of the other resolutions which are presently before the House. }fr. Speaker, the honourable members opposite are fond of saying that they had to clean up a mess left by the previous administration in a certain field,as a tactic to try to cover up their lack of action over the past two and a-half years.

In this particular case, I would like to hear members opposite get up and say that this particular problem sought to be ~emedied by the honourable member who sponsored the resolution, that this particular case is a mess brought ·into being by certain members of the previous administration. The honourable Minister of Finance who is presently not in his seat today was the Minister of Municipal Affairs when this amendment to the act was brought into the House of Assembly.

The present Minister of Justice was Minister of Justice then and the present Minister of Municipal Affairs was either in finance or social services or one of those departments closely related to the problems that existed at the time. Now, Sir, therefore I am glad to see that the honourable minister has seen the wisdom of his ways. Nobody on this side ·of the House was in the cabinet of the day when ·s22e

May 15 , 1974 Tape 1644 IB-3 that act was brought in or that amendment was brought in to amend an excelle!!t piece of legislation, namely that if a person wete dispossessed of a home that person receives an equivalent home, not merely the assessed value of that house but an e.quivalent home for beinp., dispossessed because of expropriation J,y the government. Sir, I would have liked to have heard from the Minister of Finance on the matter to see how come it was that he had such a change of heart.along with the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

Unfortunately, we are not goinf to have t 1tat pleasure and privilege this afternoon. Sir, the housing problem iR a massive problem facing any government in Newfoundland. If we add little bits and pieces to that problem, the problem is r,oi~g to become even more massive and get completely out of hand. I am not saying that the amendment which was l>roup.,ht in ,which did away with the house for a house concept as far as urban renewal was concerned, has caused the housing shortage in this province. I am not saying that at all.

All I am saying is that this type of thing, Sir. this type of a problem whcn you add this one to another small problem.to another small problem, all add up to the massive overall housing problem which we have in the province today. This ministery, this government,! feel, Sir, has done very little about the overall housing problem although I am glad to see that they have reluctantly agreed to support tnis resolution.

Last year or this year rather, within the last two or three months, statistics came out from Statistics Canada which showed that we were second-last in Canada in housing starts, that our starts were nine point three, just over nine per thousand compared to an average of over twelve per thousand right across Canada.

No case can be made that this government is making an all-out effort to try to deal with the housing problem, not only the housing shortage but the fact that for the average family today it is virtually impossible for them to even dream about getting into a house,because of the inflationary spiral perhaps. Anyway, the cost of housing has gone up astronomically and is far beyond the reach of any nonnal wage earner in Newfoundland society today. 6229

May 15, 1974 Tape 1644 IB-4 What I would like to say, Sir, is that there has been, I think, a misconception as to what the amendment to the house for a house legislation really did. As I understand it,there still exists under the law the right for citizens to obtain an equivalent house for a house or a house for a house as it is called generally, in a11 · cases except cases of urban renewal.

Unfortunately, many otherwise well-informed people in Newfoundland today have the idea, have the misconception that the house for a house concept was wiped out by the amendment to the act and that now whenever a home or land containing a home is expropriated by the government that all that that person, the original owner or the former owner,is entitled to is the assessed value or the appraised value of that home. In all cases of expropriation that seems to be the generally recei'17ed notion current in the province today.

We have people where after two or three years of a freeze being put on their property and government officials going out and offering them some money, not really being too well informed on the situation, not really understanding that they are entitled to a house for a house, accepting far less for their home than they would otherwise accept if they knew the true situation.

Now, I have not looked at the acts for the last couple of years but my understanding is that the house for a house: the amendr·ent which now provides that in certain cases people will be paid the appraised value or the assessed value for their home applies only to the urban renewal schemes,which usually are done in co-operation with the government of Canada. As I say, unfortunately this idea has crept alonF; and spilled over into other aspects.

For example, I remember a case raised by the honourable Leader of the Opposition,of a man in Corner Brook who had his home expropriated from him,to acco'l!llllodate I believe the arterial road in Corner Brook and who was offered by the government and received I believe an amount which would compensate him for the appraised value of his house but was not nearly enough to buy a house which would be equivalent to the home which he was required to vacate. I do not know why that happened. Perhaps under the DREE Agreement there was some 6230

May 15, 1974 Tape 1644 IB-5 agreement with Ottawa eQuivalent or similar to the urban renewal idea. In any event, even if there are no further urban renewal programmes and it likely that the Government of Canada is not going to enter into urban renewal programmes ,at least as we saw them in the past. They are not going to do it in the future, they have new concepts.

Even if we do not do that and even if the problem in a practical sense never arises again, I think it is necessary for the government to bring in the legislation to state clearly and unequivocally that in all cases a person who has been relieved of his home by expropriation is entitled to a home for that home, basically equivalent to the one which he was required to vacate ,and will not be merely compensated for it on an appraised value.

I think it is necessary that the people of Newfoundland realize and are told because of legislation going throught this House, that as a matter of principle in all cases everybody is entitled to a home for a home so that the misconceptions and the misconstructions which have gone about since the amendment to the home for a home legislation was passed through this Hc,use, these misconceptions are laid to rest once and for all. I do not intend to speak, Sir, very long at all on the resolution. It is an excellent one.

The House asks the government to introduce legislation which would change the rules of compensation for expropriated private dwellings to imbody the principle of replacement cost where applicable instead of fair market value. I think the honourable member for St. John's South is to be commended for bringing in the legislation. When I rose to speak, I was not clear as to whether the government were going to accept the resolution or not. I am glad to hear that they are now going to accept it. So, I can cut my remarks short. I do not have to get involved in too much oratory.

I wish merely to go on the record as stating that we are in favor of that concept. The number of times in the future where it might get out of hand or the problems which were raised by the Minister of Municipal Affairs, I believe, Sir, those types of problems will only occupy one per cent of the attention of the public officials 6231

Hay 15, 1974 Tape 1644 IB-6 involved• because they do not arise too often where we have the type of invidious comparison which was mad~, for example, up on the Blackhead Road where one person might have a house which was habitable and therefore would not receive so much as a person merely because another person was marginally low or living in an unhabitable house and therefore would receive $25,000 or $30,0GO to get in a house which was habitable and which was more than equivalent to the house he originally owned. That type of a problem, Sir, is a marginal situation.

To hear the honourable minister rise in the House and say that these are. the oroblerns which exist, in a pessimistic fashion tryinf' to throw cold water on the concept;, a basically just concept of a house for a house, that t ype of an argument, Sir, does not• hold any uater at all. If the honourable minister should be afraid of this type of a problem . a marginal sort of situation or a problem like that. then he should realize , Sir, that this is why governments are in existence. If there were not types of problems to be solved by governments, there would be no need of governments.

If this type of a problem did not arise, this marginal type of problem, there would be no need for courts.because it is always the difficult situation that occupies the time of government and occupies the time of the various courts in our province. This is exactly why they exist. Host cases are clear and simple. Ninety-five per cent of the cases are clear and simple. I do not like to hear, as a member of this !louse, an honourable minister rising and giving out examples which.although very rare and very marginal in nature, throw cold water on a basically good principle such as espoused by the member for St.

John ' s South. So, S:l.r, without any further ado, I say that we for our part wil 1 vote for this resolution. I am glad the government is goin g . to support the resolution. I hope that the government find it possible to get an amendment to the act drafted quickly,perhaps during this session. If the House close on Friday or Monday or Tuesday coming,for a recess,and reopens sometime early in June, then perhaps we can have the first, second and third reading of such an amennment at that time. 6232

May 15, 1974 Tape 1644 IB-7 I do not think it is difficult. All they have to do is copy the original legislation, get it before this House and I am sure that it would go through unanimously without a dissenting voice. I think it would go a long way to correcting individual injustices tha\ have gone on in the past, say five or six years in this province, as a result of the unjustice amendment which was brought before this House by the then Minister of Municipal Affairs, now the Minister of Finance. We have pleasure, Sir, in supporting this resolution. MR. NE~x_:_ Mr.

Speaker, my honourable colleague, the member for White Bay South, has certainly put our position on this resolution very clearly. I do not think he left any doubt in the minds of members of the honourable Rouse tl at we intend to support this resolution. I want to join with my colleague in congratulating the member for St. John's South for having the courage, Sir, to bring in this resolution. The member probably realized when he put this resolution on the Order Paper , Sir, that this was a promise that was made by the Progressive Conservatives in the last provincial general election.

As a matter of fact, it was one of the items that was read by fils Honour, the Lieutenant C-0vernor,in the Speech from the Throne preceding that election, Sir. It is a little over two and half years ago since that item appeared in the Speech from the Throne. The honourable member probably realized that it was in the Speech from the Throne.

The honourable member must have been very frustrated by the lack of action on the part of the administration, Sir, in this matter, as the honourable member has expressed his frustration and dissatisfaction and disillusionment with the administration on a· good many more matters. Sometimes I wonder, ¥x. Speaker, if the honourable member is a Liberal or a Tory. I think he is probably somewhere in between. -~T HO~OURABLE MEMBER: A Progressive Conservative for about twelve years. MR. NEARY: A Progressive Con.servative for about twelve years? Well, Sir, one would never say it sometimes.

The way the member tries to straddle the fence sometimes, one would never know what he is, Sir, a Liberal or a Tory. 6233.

Ma y 15, 1974 Tape 1644 IB-8 ~ HONOURABLE MEMBER: The honourable member is absolutely wrong and he knows it . HR. NEARY: No, Sir, I do not know it. Hr. Speaker, nevertheless, Sir - MR. SPEAKER (MR. DL~IPHY): Order, please! The honourable member is not being relevant to-the resolution. I would ask that he so do. MR. NEARY: An absolutely magnificant ruling, Sir, and I intend to abide by the rulings of Your Honour. I hope, Sir, that my one­ man peanut gallery was just escorted out of the House, Sir, and not restrained for the evening. I hope that he will be sleeping in his own bed tonight .

It is nice to know, Sir, that we have some . supp~rters like that. They just love me, }Ir. Speaker. They love me! }'.R. W. ROWE: To think we worked so hard to get a chance to speak in here. !._1R-=--.E_EARY: Yes, that is right. In order to speak in this House one has to get elected, Sir, as my colleague pointed out to me. Sir, when the minister was speakinr, in this debate he raised a couple of matters that were of some interest to me. He ended up on a note that sort of puzzled me.

To hear a minister responsible for housing in the administration of this province come out and make a flat statement that one of the big problems involved in the high cost of housing in this province is profiteering on a large scale, gr'eed and profiteering on a large scale - Al"\l HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir. Now, l!r.

Speaker, I was rather puzzled by that statement because the minister has it all in his own hands. when he was taking his seat he said, "This is something that government at all levels are going to have to deal with." Well, what I would like to know is what the minister is doing about it, 6234

May 15, 1974 Tane 1645 (Afternoon) PK - 1 If the minister, Sir, can come into this House and admit that there is profiteering on a larl!;e scale in housin~ in this province,what is the minister doinp, ahout it? Sir, if. a minister admit that and then does nothing about it - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. 1-'R. NEARY: Now do not try and pawn it off on Ottawa; Ottawa is not the nrovince. We have a Yinister of Housing in this orovince and ,-re have a provincial r,overnment. Do not try and oass the buck.

Once the minister admits that, Sir, confesses; "Yes, I know that this is goinl!: on,"then the minister either has to do something about it or resign. AN HON. MEMBER: Rear! Heer! AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. HR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker, the other day we heard the Member for Port de nrave, We heard an exnerr nn housing the nther dav, the Member for Port de Grave who seemed to know what he was talking about. Perhaps he would make a better Hinister of Housing, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. "'!'R,. NF..ARY: I think the member indicated that there was nrofiteering goin~ on, excess profits.

Sir, this is the sort of thin~ that we have been advocating on this side of the House for the last two and a­ half years. We have heen telling the administration,then today the min:1.s ter admits it. 11 Profi i:eering II he said; "On a larJ1;e scale, 11 We 11 either the minister has to do something about that or get out of the job he is in. You ju~t do not come in, Sir, and confess that there ii; a prohlem, admit it, then just wait for the nroblem to evaporate, to go away. What is the minister going to do about it?

The minister also talked, Sir, I think the first point he made when he rose this afternoon, he said, "The number one problem in the high cost of housing is the need for low cost serviced land.' I do not think I am misquoting the minister, Sir. The minister made that statement ? If he did - I would like to ask him again what his administration 6235

May 15, 1974 Tape 1645 (Afternoon) PK - 2 are doing about it. I put a question to the minister today,during the oral question period,about one hundred building lots that were suppose to go on sale down here at Virginia Park, in March. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. i-1R. !\TEARY: P11rdon? .A.N HON, MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: I know it is not cheap land, Sir. So what? Are these building lots going to he for the elite, only the rich and the wealthy can go down in Virginia Park?

Why cannot a poor old truck driver or a poor old office worker or a poor old pipefitter, why cannot he go do,m there or a longshoreman and stick un a house? Is the a,ea being nrotected for the elite? All you have to do is drive down there, and I think you can get the answer to that. That is why I suggested to the minister the other day that in cases where persons do not have the money to nurchase this land that it be leased to them unless they are going to turn it into an exclusive development, Sir. MR. W. N. ROWE:_ Let us sav Bally Haly Place. }ffi.

NEARY: Yes, drop over to Bally Haly, ior a cocktail whenever you feel like it. development? AN HON. MEHBER: Unless the minister is going to make it an exclusive Inaudible. NR. NF.ARY: No, I have nothing against cocktails and I do not go to Bally Haly. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Oh, I have been invited many times. Ma'liy times I have been invited. AN HON. MEMBER : Inaudible. MR. NEARY: How did the minister get in? AN HON. MEMBER: I did not get in. MR. SPEAKER (DUNPHY): Order please! 6236

May 15, 1974 Tape 1645 (Afternoon) PK - 3 MR. NEARY: So, Mr. ~peaker, one of the proposals, one of the positive, constructive suggestions that we have put forward from this side of the House in this session,time and time _ap.atn,~ractically once a week,we make this suggestion to the minister; "Lease the land. Lease it to potential homeowners.'' How much is that land costing down there? $10,000? $15,000? MR. W. N. ROWE: A lot would be way over $10,000, I would say, MR. NEARY: About $12,0nO? $15,000 a building lot? AN HON. MEMBER: Fourteen thousand to sixteen thousand dollars. MR. NF..ARY: Oh that is right.

My colleague was down,vesterday I believe it was or the day before, looking over some land down there; anywhere from $14,000 to $16,000 for a huilding lot. AN HON. MEMBER: Who owns the building lots? MR. NEARY: The Newfoundland and Labrador Housing. AN HON. ~MRF.R: Oh,no not these. MR. NEARY: Not these? AN HON. !ffiMBFR : They are around $12,000 I think. MR. NEARY: These are $12,000,the ones the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing have $12,000. Now remember, ~!r. Speaker, remember this,that it is the government of this province,using the taxnayers money - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

NEARY: The money is coming, Sir, from the fishermen, the money is coming from the truck drivers and the office workers and the municipal employees. The taxpayers are giving this administration the money, Sir, to buy this land and to service this land. Yet when they put it up for sale, Mr. Speaker, you have to be wealthy, you have to be rich in order to get a building lot there. You have to be wealthv, you have to be a well-to-do lawyer or a businessman, the ordinary rank and file cannot get a crack at it because it is too expensive, it is heyond their reach. 6237

May 15, 1974 Tape 1645 (Afternoon) PK - 4 What I would suggest to the minister responsible for housing is that they not make this an exclusive development.that they lease the land to people who want to build houses down there, give the ordinary rank and file a chance to get in Virginia Park or ~Tirginia Waters. Lease the land to them and when they get their house paid for,that would cut down the nrice of the house by about, let me see, $12,000 say on a $35,000 home, what is that? $23,000.

Well say an ordinary person wantinp; to put up a home down there and could probably float a mortgage for $22,000 or $25,000 and lease the land for $1.00 a year until the house is paid for and then,if he want to continue on with his payments and buy the land,that is up to him. Re should be given that right. That should be a part of his contract. If he should not wan~ to buy it, lease it to him for ninety-nine years. The minister admitted that the first need is prime land. Well, Sir, what are the administration doin~ about it? Nothing as far as I can see.

The minister said the problem is there but he did not tell us what the answer was. There is J'.)art of the answer. It m11v not be all of the answer. Now, !-Ir. Sneaker, as far as this home for a home principle is concerned, as far as I can see, Sir, there are two kinds of situations involved. First of all, there is the matter of expropriation. I think the minister was a little bit confused in his thinking when he was trying to compare the urban renewal project over on the Brow with say, for instance, the Gros Morne National Park or the clean-out do_t.mtown here.

I think they are entirelv different situations, Sir. In one situation, Mr. Speaker, society is trying to make up for neglect of the nast. In the case of Mundy Pond, for instance, and in the case of the Blackhead Road Urban Renewal Study, society was having pangs of conscience and felt because people were living in such substandard homes in these area with no water and sewerage and in some cases living under extreme circumstances that something had to be done about it, something had to be done to upgrade these two areas. 6238

1".ay 15, 1974 Tape 1645 (Afternoon) PK - 5 Now the government were faced, Sir, in the case of the Blackhead Road Urban Renewal ~tudv,with cleanin~ the whole area out altogether or carrying out an urban renewal plan · to upgrade the community and to upgrade the housing and the government choose to let the community remain intact Rnd to spend a few million dollars to unp.rade the community,and to provide nev housinr and up~rade t he old substandard houses over on Shea Heip,hts as it is now called. Well, Sir, the minister may be right. Maybe the p-overnment of the day should have cleaned out the whole area.

Maybe they should have, Sir. llayhe there is a lesson to he learned from the Blackhead Road Urban Renewal Study, I have no doubt but there is. Everything you do in this life, Sir, you can learn something from it, you can benefit from 1t,8ut, Sir, would these r>eoole living on Shea Heif?;hts, would they have gone along with it, even if you gave them a home for a home? Even if you moved them into St, John's, bought them nice new $30,000? $35,000? $40,000 homes, would thev have agreed to move? Would they?

The member who represents that district un there, Shea Heip.hts is in the member's district, 11ould they aF;ree to be moved out~ If there were a referendum held over there,would they a~ree to go? Would they have to be forced out? I am more inclined to believe, Mr. Speaker, that they would have to be forced out,and that would not be very democratic,would it? As a matter of fact, Sir, in my opinion the whole question of exnronriation, Sir, is undemocratic. It is undemocratic. It is a man-made thing. It is something invented in some legal mind to force oeo-ple off their oro-perty. Sir, it is undemocratic.

Exoropriation is undemocratic, I supoose the main reason why it was instituted in the first place was to remove barriers to progress. People who were accused of obstructing nrogress, to get them out of the way. We saw that happen downtown here, Sir, right down now where City Hall is located. Some beautiful homes down there, Sir, were torn ~own. They could have been rehabilitated. 6239

May 15, 1974 Tape 1645 (Afternoon) PK - 6 It 1s in this kind of situation, Mr. Speaker, where I think I would say that the person has more of a right for a home for a home than for instance the neople who live on the Blackhead Road. They have a right to have their homes upgraded. They were not being forced out of their homes. It was an urban renewal project that was bein11; carried out but the people downtown here, Sir, were being forced out of their homes. The people over in Gros Morne National Park, in certain communities, may be forced out of their homes and may be forced to give up their property.

Downtown here, Sir, the people who were forced out of their homes, in my opinion, were not adequately compensated. They were not. Some are still paying mortgages,co1111Ditted probably for the next ten . or fifteen or twenty vears to paying mortgages. Now we :o;ee Trizec going down there and they are buying up the land on both sides of the road. They have an option, a three month option on e:l.ther side of that street do~m there. They are buying everything in sight. So, Sir, here is the result of expropriation of six or seven or eight years ago that was su~posed to be cleaned out to benefit the dty. AN HON.

MEMBER: Are Trizec oaying market value? MR. NEARY: Trizec are paying more than market value, Sir. They are certainly oaying more than the individuals who were forced out down there. They are paying about two and three times more than the property is worth. They must have a commitment from the provincial government to take over at least fourteen stories of that huge skyscraoer that they are going to put uo down there,according to the way they are lashing the money out for prooerty down there.on both sides of the road.

He have not been able to get that information out of the Premier yet but we will get it one of these days. It will surface pretty soon, Sir. But these people were entitled to a better dt·al, Mr. Speaker. They were forced out of their homes to make way for the like of Trizec to ~ome in here and put up a skyscraper and milk the province for 6240

May 15, 1974 Tape 1645 (Afternoon) PK - 7 everything it is worth. Do you mean to tell me that is democracy, Sir? Is it? Is that democratic? These people had every ri~ht to stay where they were. They were forced out of it by the city. Here you have this vacant piece of land down there ever since; it has been lying there for years. What should happen, Sir, is that the city should take the benefits that they get from Trizec and from the province and reimburse these people uho were forced out of the centre of St. John's and forced to go out and commit themselves to heavy mortgages. They should be forced to do it.

If they had any conscience at all,that is ~hat they would do, Sir. So I do not have to be sold on the idea of a house for a house, I can tell you that. It is not the first time it was raised in the legislature, Sir. The firr,t time it was raised in this Jegislatu£e I raised it.believe it or not. C,o back and check Hansards. I raised it long before the Minister of Finance came in vith the amendment to The Family Home f.xnronriation Act,to have it removed. I raised it. The Premier of the day thourht it was a good idea to amend the Family Home Expropriation Act to put it in to give people a home for a home.

We had it. We had it, Sir. The 'linister of Finance brought in an amendment and took it out (!'y collea!!'ue covered that point this afternoonJ because Ottawa would not agree to give the people uu at Shea Heights a home for a home. Well they did not have to v.ive thel'I a home for a home,but they were not being forced out, they could stay there. So~e of the people "7anted to leave. Not all that many wanted to live downtown. Most of the people wanted to stay up on the Hill because it is a beautiful piece of property uo there, Sir.

I heard rumours at the time that some of the well-to-do people in this province would be glad if they were forced off that Hill,so that they could get a orime piece of property, so they could go up and stick up their mansions un there,with the big bay windows looking out over the narrows. They would have her knocked. They would have her, made if they could have gotten uo there. They did everything in the book to try and persuade the government of the day to 6241

May 15, 1974 Tape 1645 (Afternoon) PK - 8 get the people down off the Hill. They wanted to make it (what is that place in Montreal?) AN HON. MEMBER: Mount Royal. MR. NEARY: Mount Roval. They wanted to make it another Mount Royal, the well-to-do people in this city. I remember somebody talking to the former Premier Smallwood and telling him "Look, you are making a mistake. Do not ungrade the homes up there. Force the people out of it.

Get them down of the Hill so we can go up there and build our big mansions, put in our big plate glass windows, our corner windows,so we can brinp, our rich buddies up and look down at the peasants." That is what they ~-•anted to do, Sir. That is why we hear the moaninp and groaning from s;ome honourable members of that side of the House. I thought I was p:oing to cry when I was listening to the minis·ter responsible for housing talking about the money that was spent unon the Brow. I thought he was going to have me in tears there for a: while. It is monev well spent, Sir. Maybe we can learn something from it.

Thone we do. But, Sir, it is the situation downtown that really concerns me and the situation out in Gros Morne National Park. That is the kind of situation that concerns me. Over in Mundy Pond the neon] e will be all right if they are p,:!.ven low cost housing, if they are given subsidized rental housing, subsidized housing and given water and sewerage, sidewalk and a few paved roads which they are entitled to. They will be all right,,Sir, they are not being forced out of there. Some may wish to leave, lf they do, they should be given a home for a home.

But the Minister of F~nance told us that Ottawa would not permit this.so we had to amend The Family Home Expropriation Act,which they did. The ~1inister of Finance did it, Sir, much to my sorrow and grief,when I was sitting on that side of the House and I had to go along with it. How dare I stand up against the giant, the Minister of Finance who wanted to amend this act? ''Tow the party line,' I was told. Sometimes you wonder about the party system. But anyway, Sir, it went through and there was nothing I could do about it. I have been suggesting that it be put back in,ever since. 6242

May 15, 1974 Tape 1645 (Afternoon) PK - 9 The Minister of Finance unfortunately is not in his seat today. I would like to hear what the minister has to say about this. He was the one who took it out and now, Sir, the same situation aoplies at the present time. The Member for St. John's South who broup.ht in this resolution knows full Yell that it is very unlikely that Ottawa is r,oing to go along with this. It is very unlikelv, so the nrovince are going to have to go it on their own. Where you have exapropriation taking place.involving federal funds,Ottawa in all likelihood mll say, "No.

If you want to do it, you pay one hundred per cent of the cost." Well, Sir, the same situation applied a few years ago when the Minister of Finance had this act amended; the province could have naid the full shot but the ~inister of ~inance did not recommend that, Sir, he did not recommend it. Instead he took the route of having this removed from the act, and I think that was a mistake. That was one mistake that I would admit that the former administration made, on the recommendation of the Minister of Finance who is now sitting on that side of the House. No wonder he is not in his seat this afternoon, Sir.

He probably does not want to vote on this resolution. But it is a good resolution, Sir, and I do not care what motive the }fember for St. John's South had for bringing it into the House, whether it is politically, whether he is trying to get a little mileage for himself, whether he intends to run for the Leadership of the Tory Party. He might make a good leader, 6243

May 15, 1974 Tape No. 1646 NM - 1 ~NEARY: probably the only one on that honourable side of the House, Sir, who could lead that party. I heard rumours some time ago that the honourable member was going to run for the leadership of the Liberal Party. I hope he does, Sir. I hope he does. He would make a good candidate. I will not commit myself whether I would supnort him or not. Rut, Sir, I do not care what the member's motive was, I think it is a good resolution. It shows the member is thinking . The member for St.

John's South is also a practising lawyer and has probably had some experience in the heartaches and the heartbreaks of expropriation. He has probably seen it more than most of the members in this honourable House. So I think, Mr. Speaker, if the government will only act on this resolution, Sir, I think it would be a good thing. The government are committed to it. It is one of the unkept promises.

It is a hangover from the, I think it is the first provincial election,back in the Throne Speech in March 1972, a little over two years ago. lt is over two years since the governmentnade this promise and I will he anxious to see, Sir, if the government vote for the resolution as the minister resnonsible for housing indicated. I will be very anxious to see what action the government will take on this matter and how quickl y they wil1 take action on this, because I think it is a good resolution, Sir, and it is the kind of reform that I would like to see debated and pass e d in this honourable Hou,;e. 'IR. (!

USON: 'Ir . Speaker, I would _like to ripe to speak on this resoludon before the House, brought in the House by the member for Sc. John's South, not only to make up my mind in this honourable House to support such a resolucion because any common sense man of the day and the hour that we live in could think no other but do just that.

But while listening to the honourable member for Bell Island I go along with a lot of noints he has said and a ·lot of them I know that when he gets warmec up like I and a good many more that - But nevertheless there are some good points derived from everything as far as that is concerned. While this resolution is to the floor 6244

><av 15, 1974 Tape No. 1646 there i,s a lot to be understood and a lot to be learned as far as a house for a house and a niece of land for a olece of land. When we. co!"e to get into this caceporv, we come across a 'person who has a two bedroom horre and it is built on a rock wall, he has that house he li~~ in with a family of probably six or eight, he only has two bedrooms and when it i.s taken from him he wants a ' modern home built, forty-five or fifty feet,with a full size basement and everythinp, with about five or ten times the value of the one chat he rot clear of.

I chink somewhere alonis the line, if chis come to pass, there should be provisions made to take car~ of that part of it. I think while a man strives where he hils a seven by nine or a thirty hv f1ftv, he strjves his lifetime and he rot his lifetime earnin!'s around hil'l ancl he findrs out that lie comes co the nlace lie has to take un residence and rrove, I think first thc1t parcv should give concern as tr, where they feel like setclinp to and anotlier thinr,havin<> ho!l'es to go into.

Surely no co!'lmon sense person on the povernment side, on the onposition side, would f.'.O ai;i:ainst this because chat is what hars us all here in this honourable Rouse and if we are in our communities to do anything for our fellow man who is after p.iving the me!'lbers who are in this House the privilege to try to do ,;nmethinf. for them. Surely this should he our motive but hy doing so, not to upset the apple cart with the other person. The honourable memher for Bell Island said one thing there that I Daid ~reat attention to, we have some Deople who if you !(ive them a new home they will hardly live in it.

They do not want it in that particular area. This is another case that you have. But I think that if you sit down before this haopens and you come right in on the Derson and talk with him and through guidance and what not. I think rhat r,an be nverr.n,,,... Another thing, I am well in favour of the Minister of ~unicipal Affairs and Housing who has spoken so broadly on these matters and I have to back him up. As far as that is concerned,it goes to show that this goverrunent,if it were not done in the former government, well it was not done, That should not be any blame to hold across this government. 6245

'1ay 15, 1974 Tape No. 1646 NH - 3 because they are trying to do something about it. Surely the older we pet the TT1ore we learn and if it were not that way ,well nrobablv we should all be staying younger. ~ut nevertheless there is something to be done about it and it is onlv by the help of the opposition and the government that the government themselves are ~oing to do something about this. Surely, we are look1n? to that objective to do the best we can for our fellow man.

Speaking of th~t an<l another too I am proud of,and I should not speak this _way, as being a contractor and a builder myself, but also if I am,I reali~e that if I have to have a roof over my head then my next-door neighbour should have one too. Everychinp. is gone to the extortion, puinr and this is just what is happening. Only a few days ago I picked up "The Eveninp Telegram· and I read about a fish --holding centre, a wooden structure with a concrete floor, thirtv by forty-five. lo and behold sure the contract was let for that for $65,000 from the federal government.

Now how can you exnect any better from the ordinary contractor who has taken it on himself to make as much as he can? We have some consciencious people as far as that is concerned. We have others who do not give a toot. This is where it is to. AN HON. "!E).!BEI.: Inaudible. ------ - "lR.. WILS0N: Right,and people have got the place because it is a government we will haul all out of, but the government is ourselves and we are the taxpayers. We are the taxoayers to ask to lol'lk out for this.

Even so, it is shared, You talk about housing and what is going to happen, I myself have gone into a place that I do not see how it can be any cheaper, only what worse it is going to be. A house could be building last year,out in the outoorts,with labour, the labour cost $2,500, and in this present year the labour is $5,000. Now that seems pretty hard to say but just look at it - $3.50 an hour last year, union wages this year $7.00• Is that not doubled? Is that not twice the $2,500,which is $5,000? But the greatest concern 6246

May 15, 1974 Tape No. 1646 NM - 4 of all, as to what has been spoken about here about housing,is land. You go in and walk on a piece of land,they want $7,000 or $8,000 for a buildin11: lot. This is ridiculous. As far as clearing off a buildin!! lot is concerned, what is ic? If you pay $20 an hour for a bulldozer, there is no trouble to clear away a space for two houses, without it is wonderful hard land, in one day,and all of this adds up to the cost.

Another cost that no one had looked at at all is in municipal areas, where you turn around and send in and get ready to build a home, you p,ot carpenters ready and waitinp and probably wait six weeks to get an inspector to come and pass the sewera!!e disposal, where you are usin~ septic tanks,before you get a permit. Now it is just as well for us to face it, this is what we are up against. It was only this mornin~ that I came from a municipality where there are about ten or a dozen homes. They are told that some of them are going to have to wait as high as six months.

Now, Sir, there is something wrong with our structure and our municipalities if we have people elected to municipalities who do not know where there is a place they can erect a sewerage system or not. This is all added up to the cost. I am very much concerned myself and to see this resolution put forward, you have to congratulate the member who brought it in because I see into that that we are going to have some people who are scratchin!! their heads at the present time and wondering if they are !!oing to be put on the path or what not and this will set their mind at ease.

Some of these are probably people who are after hearin11: the burden and the heat of the day, after helpin11: me to pet where I am to, and they find out and figure, "Well, I am 11:oing to lose all that I f!;Ot." MR. WM. ROWE: Ri11:ht. The government may decide to put a highway through. MR. WILSON: Right. I think this is a good resolution and I am out to support it regardless. I think myself, as the honourable member for Bell Island certainly does not kno~ whether the Member for St. John's South is a Liberal or a Tory. well I have news for the honourable member for Bell Island.

That is the kind of people we have over in the Progressive Conservative Government, they have an open mind. 6247

May 13, 1974 Tqpe No. 1646 NM - 5 MR. SIMMONS: They do not know what side they are on. ~R. WILSON: They know what side they are on but they have an open mind. They are not selfish, not trying to cut down someone who is trying to do something because he is a little higher educated chat the other party is, to try to chop him off his feet,which is after being tried to be done with me here in this House of Assembly. The honourable member for Hermitage is one of them, one of the very guys in this honourable House, one of the very guys who just try to do that.

As far as I am concerned, my advice to you or any other member like you is,put the same time in fighting for your districts as what vou are trying to cut down the other fellow and probably we will do a job. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Twillingate. MR. GILLETT: Mr. Speaker, I am going to be very brief, following behind the speakers we have already had on this resolution and particularly my collegue from White Ray South who I think expressed the views of this side very clearly, To my mind it is quite clear, a house for a house,and 1 believe that the honourable member for St.

John's South in bringing forth this resolution put it quite clearly in the wording of it, because as I understand it, this resolution will deal with houses or private property, including private dwellings which have been and will be expropriated. I assume that when property is expropriated, it is done so for a purpose by the government, either to put a highway through or for so~e future amenity for that community.

So therefore I think che onus is on the government to satisfy the owner of that property by giving him a house for a house, iust as outlined in the resolution, at replacement cost, not necessarily a $35,000 home. If it costs $35,000 to replace that home with today's costs, why then of course it will have to be $35,000. The expropriation, as I said earlier, is for the people of the province, done by the government of the people, so therefore the people through the government are responsible to reimburse the owner of that dwelling. Therefore, Hr.

Speaker, I have no hesitation whatsoever in supporting the motion. 6248

May 15, 1974 Tape No. 1646 NM - 6 I think it is a good one. I conmend the member for St. John's South for bringing it before the House and as my colleague from Bell Island has said, I trust that it wql fall on very wise and ' open ears of the government and that the bill will he brought before this House before too long. Thank you. 'IR. Sl'EAF.ER: The honourable member for St, John's Ease. MR. MP,RSHALL: ~fr. Speaker, represent inf!; a district: and coming from a district that has exrerienced some nf the most chronic housing rrohlems in :,ewfoundland, that is the nl der

section of St. John's, sout:h of Cmpire Avenue, I have ,ahs olut:ely m , hesitation in support1n~ ' chis H,solution whic h is really a t:ruly Tory measure. 1 reme'!lber when it was first hroughc in. 1 think as the honourable member for White !lay South has pointed out and certainly the honourable member for St. John's South noted at lenpth t:he other day that prior tn a situation which occurred down on New G1Jw£'r Street,when the older part of St:, John's was cleared out: for the ournose of renewal of the area, it was under one of the federal programmes,at the time I believe t:hrouph the City of St.

Jol,n's hut certainly with the impet_us heinr, p.iven throu~h the p_overnment, At that time a great deal of uncertaint y and har~ and mental an~uish occurred to many of the residents as a result of the proposal to expropriate the homes and not recompense chem fairly, because the only way in which they can be recompensed fairly is really a house for a house. At that period of time, the then member for St. John's Centre, the present member for St. John's Centre, the ~inister of Social SeTVices, was instrumental in bringin!! an amendment to the act itself.

T.t was a measure of the P.C .• Party at the time in which all of us joined, including the honourable me111ber for St. John's South who has been active in the P.C.Party for many, many years,and we brought in :l.n effect that much needed reform. People in the New Gower Street area were treated in a much better way than they had been before and that particular amendment is still there because,as the member for White Say South has indicated, we still have a house for a house, except in the 6249

May 15, 1974 Tape No. 1646 NM - 7 urban renewal areas. The memher for St. John's South, I suppose,has been most directly affected by the change that was hrou1?ht about in the law hy the nrevious administration, not because necessarily they want("d to, but l'.'ecause once ap.ain Ottawa was dictating fro11' above the type of assistance that would be given. As T understand it, the Shea Heights Area, on the Southside and in the honourable member for St. John's North's District, the Mundy Pond Area, that came under the urban renewal.

I believe there is anntlier onp as •-Tell in the Corrier Brook Area, in Humher East where in order to bring about these changes the federal iwvernment said, "We will not recompense in that manner,., and unfortunately the act was changed,! believe to reflect this fact. l think that the honourable member for St. John's South has one of the most chronic problems in the province with respect to this because of the fact that the people in the Shea Heights Area in particular, have not been treated in the same manner as really ought to h2ve been done.

I think it is rather unfortunate that the federal government, and I think this is a real issue and I think one of the real issues at this time and T do not think that we really realize it in Newfoundland as much ~s perhans they do in other provinces of Canada where confederation has heen for a longer period of tire, I think it is absolutely ridiculous the way in which the federal government is dictating to the provincial governments what can be done. lf it should keep on going as it is going now _we can trace this in the history of the Second World War,where it was necessary for the central power to assume much more power than the constitution of Canada originally envisaged, but if it keeps on going, what is p.oinp. to hanpen is the provincial governments are going to end up as really in effect being municipal governments- !>IR.

WM. 'ROWE: Do not throw aw?y your $500,000 now. MR. MA'RSHALL: Creatures of Ottawa, Ln effect what is going to happen is that we are doing and as we watch ourselves in the framework of 6250

May 15, 1974 Tape No. lli46 N!-1 - 8 Confederation, we are ~oin~ to have an excha nge in merely colonial status from London wich colonial status from Ottawa. 1 do not chink. that chat is acceptable co any honourable member in this Rouse. 1 chink chat par t y lines aside, chat if you look at what has hapnened in the history of Confederation,and both par t ies have been in, but I do think that the Lib eral Government) the Liberal Party,in cends co be much more centralized than the Pro~ressive Conservatives. But in any event , what is happening is really a centralization of oower. a usurpation of power bv t he federal gove rnment and I do not think we have any more 6251

May 15, 1974 Tane 1647 (Afternoon) PK - 1 vivid example of this than the problem that we are now faced with and which the honourable the Member for St. John's South has so admirably brought before us and which this government will be attempting of course to change.

The fact of the matter is that federal programmes are put down by Ottawa from time to time here,that we have no opportunity but to accept, if we are going to survive, that the concept of Confederation throughout Canada,in the past twenty-five years in particular, has heen warped with the way that Confederation was set up 0 With provincial governments having power over such things as propertv and civil rights is the only way in which this country can onerate because of the vast exnense. I would hope that the provincial government can get the federal g~vernment to see the errors of its ways in this area.

I am not suggesting that we have to wait on the federal government,because we have to act. We have to act in this matter to see that people are treated fairly as we took steps before to see that they were treated fairly. Generally on housing nolicy,because this debate has been wide-ranging,the honourable Member for St. John's South I believe used words to the effect that he hoped that the housing policies brought down by 0ttawa were not brought down cruelly because of regulations making it impossible for people to implement them. I have to say in my area of St.

John's East that unfortunely such has been the case for a long period of time. You ~ake the neighbourhood improvement programme which has alreedy been referred to in this debate, where you require mountains of red tape to be cut, where you require agreementr of large sectors of the city for the purpo~e of operating within neighbourhood improvement and it becomes absolutely and completely impractical of implementation in the older areas. You can utilize it in places on the Blackhead Road,where you already have an urban renewal area, the decision has been 11ade.

You can utilize it in the Mundy Pond Area,where composite decisions have been made,but in the smaller streets in St. John's, the older streets where the housing, 6252

May 15, 1974 Tape 1647 (Afternoon) PK - 2 I will submit, one cannot say that it is more chronic than anywhere else but it is certainly very chronic,where vou have houses in such a condition that they have heen condemned by the fire department, no fire can be lit in them and nothing can be done. But in these areas the federal orogrammes,he it through Central Mortr,age and Housi.ng C:orr,oration with their huge mountains, as I say. nf red tape, their orocedures which are really impractically of implementation, be it in St. John's Bast or for that matter all throughout the island, everywhere.

Neighbourhood improvement programmes,where you are talking about bringing in the programmes that might work and undoubtedly will work in areas in Toronto, rundown areas in Toronto ~-1'1ere they moved in and took over the whole properties and were in effect an urban renewal scheme.

When you are talking about old,r residences and places such as Colonial Street, Bannerman Street, Power Street,in the city or where have you, and you are talkinp about peoole who are retired in their sixties and you say to the~, that in order to implement this scheme we have to haul down your house and we have to do this, that and the other thing, and completely rebuild it, it is just really impractical no matter what good intent was originally envisaged when the act was brought in.

I have no doubt that it can be implemented beneficially in many areas in Canada, certain areas in Newfoundland,but herein lies the danp,er,as I 11ay,of these overall emcompassinp; federal regulations and federal laws that do not lend themselves to adoption in specific areas. I am glad the Minister of ~unicipal Affairs as he has indicated sees there must be a revamoinr, of expropriation procedures. This province is doing all it can, by the way, with respect to housing, The honourable Member for White Bay South, I think said that this government are doiqg very little about housing.

I do not think this is really fair. When you look at the situation with which we are faced under both our own fiscal situation and the exigencies of the housing situation itself, if he want to look at the budp;et he will see that there are 6253

May 1·~, 1974 Tape 1647 (Afternoon) PK - 3 approximately $7 millions of our dollars being poured in this year, which is really going to trigger off a programme here in Newfoundland of an expenditure in the vicinity of $35 millio~. This is going to involve serviced land, land development, 1,500 subsidized housing units and wh~t have you. -so that in the newer area,when you are talking about the newer homes, I think we have really triggered off a meaningful progratmne. AN HON. MEMBER: The biggest programme ever. MR.MARSHALL: The biggest programme ever.

So I cannot see, I do not think that the honourable Hember for White Bay South should be able to make this statement and have it unanswered. But the fact which we are faced with, the Member for St. John's south, the Member for St. John's Centre and myself in St. John's F.ast in particular, who represent that area, tnat is south of F.muire Avenue, the older homes in the area, it is a depressing situation with which we are faced. This is one area that the honourable Member for St. John's South has been able to tackle quite adequately.

It is very depressing for him to be representing people in this manner and to see that in one area of Newfoundland there is provision for compensation for a house for a house but because of the federal government happening to come in and the civil servants in Ottawa or what have you or because of the fact that we only have seven federal seats here and the bread basket of Southern Ontario controls about seventy and Quebec controls seventy more, because of this.

Whereas our provincial policy - which was ~he same as the previous policy - the previous policy engendered, of course, (I add because one likes to be political) by the honourable member for St John's Centre, but they accepted it and it was a policy throughout the island - a house for a house. Then because the federal government came down with their urban renewal scheme and what have you - which is not implemented here - as I say, it must be very depressing for the Member for St• John's South to find himself in that situation, as it is for all of use to find ourselves 6254

May 15', 1974 Tape '1647 (Afternoon) PK -· 4 who represent older areas with these prop.rammes that are hailed by Ottawa as being the absolute answer and where we find they are utterly impractical of implementation. So I certainly have, as I say in closing, no hesitation whatsoever in supporting, not only sµpporting but supporting enthusastically this resolution brought in hy the Member for St. John's South to make the Progressive Conservative or if you like the Tory Policv applicable throughout all of the areas of exnropriation.

I I iust hooe that in the months and the years to come.,,,.hile we are in office,thnt we can oersuade the federal government to give us the money to ~e able to tackle in a more meaningful way the pro~ince "'1th respect to older housing in the citv. 'AR. SPEAKF.~: The honourable "ember for Hermitage. MR. R. Sl'IMONS: "-'r. Speaker, f:lrst of all I would certa:lnlv like to col!DDend the Member for St. John's South for bringing in this motion. AN HON. 'fflfBF.R: Inaudible. HR. SIMMONS: Well even on this side we would wish him well, in that it would certainly be an improvement, !-<r. Speaker.

We w1 sh him ~-•ell and could I vote for him I would certainly do so on that score. I would like to connnend him though, Hr. Sneaker, for the courage which it took to bring in this motion. It is significant, of course, that it is a member on the government side of the House who has to bring :In this particular resolution in order to get it on the floor of the House. Were this an item that were quite noble or quite new or unheard of before,you could understand it being brought in by a orivate member on whatever side.

But as it is,it is a measure that was promised, as we have heard already today,hy the nresent Premier and a measure on which no action has been taken in the last counle of years. So in that particular context it must have taken real courage and the kind of courage that the i1ember for St. John's South is rapidly beaming known for, the courage which dictates independent action on his part on a number of occasions. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. 6255

May 15, 1974 Tape 1647 (Afternoon) PK - 5 MR. SIMMONS: I am delighted to sit in the same House with a fellow like the Member for St. John's South who has courage. On this particular point, he must be wondering to what extent I am being tongue in cheek Let me assure him I am not at all. It is a real delight to be associated with him on this one because first of all I wholeheartedly endorse the resolution. I am also delighted that I follow the Member for St.

John's East rather than precede him on this point because had I risen before him, I would have made a prediction which would not have come true,apparently, although there is still time, the debate is not closed. Indeed I was going to predict that the Hember for St. Jobn's East would be true to form and would rise and move an amendment to th~s motion, an amendment which would take the guts out of the motion,which would destroy its effect. I am surprised that he did not do it. I do not know if he read all of his notes, Perhaps he forgot to do it and perhaos we will see him back up before the debate closes.

As we have come to know in this session of the House, }lr. Speaker, it is the style of that member and perhaoF. his assignment as the Government House Leader indeed to undermine, nullify the effect of almost any wortbwhile motion,in one form or another - the method we saw him use most recently, in reference to the motion on election expenses,was to introduce some wording which would make the whole effect and which did make the whole effect of the resolution comoletely ridiculous.

I almost thought that he would come in .today and give us his choice wording again and move that, instead of what we have here• a couple of words he added and instead of the motion saying "That the House ask government to introduce•· that he would suggest '"That government consider the introduction of.' ' But I am delighted that he lost his note on that, ~!r. Speaker, and that we do still have the unamended motion here) and as unamended it is certainly worth supporting. I am delighted to do so. 6256

May 15, 1974 taoe 1647 (Afternoon) PK - 6 It is significant, I believe, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Finance !snot here today. I cannot tell, I would not want to be unfair, I would let him speak for himself• I cannot tell whether it is out of sheer shame that he is not here. I think the record should show,since we have heard so much about the role of the Member for St. John's Centre on this matter and one would think that some how he was the Government House Leader in those davs, when in fact he was a member of the opposition.

If a man can imnose his wisdom to the noint that he persuades the majority of thirty-nine members in the House to follow his course of a~tion,as we have been lead to believe, then I say that all thP- nonsense that we have been hearing about the one-man regime must be exactlv that. It must be nonsense.

If a man can sit on th1 Fl side of the House and r,ersuade the people on the other side - which bv f"hP way we cannot do - we cannot do, it seems- if he can nersuade the other neople that his ideas about housing are good ones.,as we were told today,then I would say it was a pretty reasonable bunch he was dealing with indeed. The fact of the matter is, of course, ~r. Speaker, quite apart from individuals

interpretations of the events of those years, the fact of the matter is that the Liberal Administration of the day did introduce a Family Exnropriation Act, one which Provided for the very principle that is embodied in this motion. The fact of the ma~ter also is that the present Minister of Finance,some four or five years ago, was the actual sponsor of an amendment which destroyed the central principle of that Family F.xnropriation Act. That is why I say it is significant that he is not here today, mostly that he is not here today to answer on this particular point. There must he some embarrassment.

The Member for St. John's South must have caused the Minister of Finance real embarrassment on this point by introducing the motion,and once ap.ain all the more to be commended for his courage in introducing it. 6257

May 15, 1974 Tape 1647 (Afternoon) PK - 7 Mr. Speaker, since latitude has been given in this debate, I will try my luck at it. I would just like to say a word or two about the cost of housing and the cost of housing as it relates to the less urban parts of this province. One would think in listening to this debate that the only place that there are housing problems is in the City of St. John's and in Corner Brook. Actually the smaller commun:l.ties in Newfoundland are very much findinp the pinch. The efforts of the federal government, we have heard the diversion of the Member for St. John's East on thiE point.

Well rather than give you my version as such just let me say two or three things that the federal government are doing on this particular subject to ease the housing problems in all parts of Newfoundland, not only the larger urban areas. In this vear alone, Mr. Speaker, the federal·government have allocated $1 billion.

One of the measures under that $1 billion nrogramme :l.s the assisted homeownership pro!!:ramme known as ''AHOP", the Assisted Homeownership Programme which allows people of lower incomes to avail of ·effective mc,rtgage rates, as low as six per cent, at a time when the mortgage rates are essentially doubled that. That orogramme is eaually applicable, indeed I would say even more applicable to rur~l areas than to urban areas but certainly available to people wherever they live in Newfoundland,provided their incomes are less than $12,000 a year. of Newfoundland.

That c~Ttain1v covers a lot of people in all parts One of the items, Mr. Speaker, that the federal government have addressed itself to in this matter is the matter of the high mortgage rates in home purchase, and how to attack that problem with the AHOP programme, the assisted homeownership programme for people with incomes of less than $12,000. That is just one of several. Another that we could mention is the residential rehabilitation assistance programme where persons can qualify for loans of up to $5,000 for home repairs.

Indeed, depending on their income,they can have that amount forgiven by the government so that while they borrow 6258

t-fay 15, 1974 Tape 1647 (Afternoon) PK - 8 up to $5,000 they are required in some cases to pay back only half of that amount for unto $2,500. Another programme yet, in the federal governm~nt's programme this year.,which we are able to avail of her!? ir Newfoundland is the non-profit housing assistance progrannne - the effect of which would nrovide the low market rents to people on low incomes.

Another still is the rural housing, the native and rural housing programme beinP, sponsored by the federal government.which over the next five years is intended to provide about 50,000 housinr- units in ·rural parts of Canada, including rural narts of Newfoundland. Still generally on the suh _ject of housing,the matter of land cost which is affecting very often the decision of a Newfoundlander to build or not to build, to acQuire a home or not to~ The skyrocket:f.ng cost of land in rural areas as well as urban is fast becoming a deterrent for people who would verv much like to own their own homes.

In respect to land and its cost,the federal government are going to spend $500 million over the next four or five years on a land assembly progra=e which will assist municipalities throughout the country to get land serviced and to mak~ it available for housing nrojects. I 1ust mention that, Mr. Sneaker, because to listen to the Member for St. John's East one would think that all the federal government are doing is writing some regulation. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that in this year alone the federal government have a $1 billion housing programme going for the nation.

We heard the Minister without Portfolio sa~• that the provincial government are this year spending $7 million. That is true according to the budget hut that $7 million of $35 million, one should not forget where the other $28 million is coming from. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. Sil1MONS: Mr. Speaker, I think it is important that we put this matter of housing and who is doing what into its proper perspective. If 6259

May 15, 1974 Tape 1647 (Afternoon) PK - 9 the :irresent provincial administration want to brag about what it is doing,let the Dle!Pbers on the governmPnt side tell us in this House and let the minister stand up and tell us in this House what they are doing in relation to some of the big cost items that are affecting 1>eople especially i.n rural Newfoundland.

We he11-r about the cost cf land, .we hear about the cost of bu:lld:lng materials, we hear about how carpenters wages are going up and so on, all of which is very true, but it is significant that the people on the government side have said not a word about a couple •of other matters, both of which are driving UJ) the cost of housing. What a):,out the legal fees involved? What about the l!lurveying cost involved?

Visualize will you someone living in Harbour Breton or it1 Bay de Espoir or in Hermitage who wants to get a piece of land surveyed and compare him to the person who lives in the more urban parts of this province where the surveyor lives literally across the street from him -,no travel cost involved. If the potential 6260

May 15, 1974 Tape No. 1648 NM - 1 home owner lives for instance in r.ander,he pays $125 a day surveying costs, all of which time the surveyor can spend doing the actual survey. If that: potential home builder lives in Harbour Breton,he pays out the $125 a day also while the fellow is travelling down to Harbour Breton and back from Harbour Breton and he pays for the cost of accommodation while that surveyor is there. In that: one example, '1r. Speaker, I think we can see that the fellow who lives in rural Newfoundland has the cards particularly stacked against him when it comes to home ownership.

I could use a similar example with reference to the leral pro.fession, to the lep,al fees involved. The fellow who lives in the rural community, removed from the urban areas, two or three large urban areas, the Corner Brook, Grand Falls, Gander, Sr. John's areas, he does not have iJTD11ediate access to lawyers ancl it in effect cost him more to obtain the lepal services required. That is one point I wish to make with respect to legal services. Another is the overall problem of the share size of legal fees anyway when it comes to the matter of housin~.

What is the provincial rovernment doing in these particular areas? Perhaps the Minister of "unicipal Affairs and Housin!! can tell us somethin~ about that subject. AN HON. ~EMBER: Inaudible. --· - MR. SI!ofMONS: Yes I have some sugr,estions for the Minister of 'lines and Energy, the lawyer Minister of Mines and Energy. ~.1:1.:_._ B~RRY: Mr. Speaker, I asked that question because in the estimates we are on,the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing has already spoken in the debate. 'lR. SIMMONS: Oh I see. No, Mr.

Speaker, as the member for Placentia West is not aware,of course, there was,at the pleading of the Minister of ~funicipal Affairs there was given considerable latitude this afternoon on this sub1ect. He wanted to do some things he could not do in the debate on the estimates, Mr.Speaker with our indulgence permitted him to do that and I am now responding to some of the things, as far-ranging as they were, some of the things which the minister raised. MR. BARRY: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: I put a suggestion, Mr. Speaker, the minister is right, I put 5251

May 15, 1974 Tape No. 1648 NM - 2 a suggestion that perhaps if the minister has anything to say on the subject,there is no restriction here that he can only speak once, J suggest that if he have something to say on the subject of high le1tal fees and survey costs and other related costs, if he have something to say on it, would he get up aftex- not as a question but as a suggestion to him. He is not at my beck anc:1 call but if he should like to stand up and make a second contribution to the debate, well by all means we shall be happy to hear from him. lam sorry, Xr.

Speaker, that the member for Port de Grave is not in the Chamber right now. I sincerely hope he is listening to the debate and the discussion at this time,because I want to put him at ease. He seems awfully worried about a number of thinp,s. The fac~ of the macter is that despite all the nasty things he tried to say to me this afternoon, I have grown tn like the fellow in the last few weeks. He is a very likable fellow. Indeed I have noticed in the last few weeks the member for Port de Grave has cleaned up his language considerably.

The first two or three weeks we were here you had to plug your ears if you wanted to at all be above the kind of language that was floatinp around here and emanating from the mouth of the member for Port de Grave. buc we have gotten away from that and he has reformed. He has cleaned up his language and even his nastiness is pleasant ,at least from the standpoint of the words he uses to get ic across. I hope he :Is also listening for the next point.

He should watch himself or if he should keep making speeches about housing, if he should 1:eep telling us why he is against mobile homes and then keep Cellini-' us that hy the way he is a contractor, a building contractor, you know I am afraid he is 11:oing co have che "inister for Rural Development on his back,because there is roin~ co he such confusion if both of them get to be known by che same title, the same label.

C.od kP.ows one conflict of interest title is enou<'lt in this '1oll!~e and T would advise my friend, the member for Port rle r.ra ve , to r,et off th;:it kick before he gets labelled and to address himself to the problems that come before this House without any particular concern for the health of his o,m business operation. 6262

'lay 15, 1974 Tape No. 164P. NM - 3 Mr. Speaker, in conclusion let me say that I support this particular !'lotion wholeheartedly. I do not ac all ap:ree with the member for ~t. John's East that it is a particularly Tory measure,althou~h I am not awfully interested in labels on this particular poincs. Perhaps he can elaborate on that one for us.

I reneat that it was a ~ood Liberal r,overnl'lcnt that r.rourht in the initial bill. le was the present Tory '~inister of Finance who clestrovecl ics effect with his amendment and it is a liberated Tory who has introduced the motion at this narticular time, a liberated Tory that we have a lot of hopes for and to whom we would rive every encourap.ement 1 particularly these going after the leadership, as my friend - 'ffi. EVANS: Inaudible. ----- · 'fR. snr-1o~s: There he is. There he is. 1mac was that? -- --- - ~!Fl. EVANS: You have not P:ot a chance for the leadershin. MR.

SIMMONS: I agree you have noc got a chance for leader in that party over there. I agree with him, "r. Speaker, completely. The wisdom of the member for Burpee continues co amaze us and elude us at the same time. 'Ir. Speaker, J make two pleas. I make a plea that the ma>ber for St . .John's East do not ret up or arranr.e for one of his colleagues to amend this motion,to water it down. I make a plea that this motion be allowed to col'le to the vote in its present form. I make a plea that every member of the House will record his vote on this.

I make a plea that the Minister of Finance would be in his seat when the vote is taken so we can see where he stands on it now. We know where he stood four or five years ago. We know where the Minister of Municipal Affairs stood four or five years ago. We are delighted to hear that he has chanp;ed his mind today,as he informed the House. We know where the 'linister of Justice stood four or five years ago and we are hoping he has chanF;ed his mind.

So I would make a particular plea t·hat the Minister of Justice and the Minister of Finance be in the Chambe~ when the vote is taken so we can see where they stand and I make a plea that every member vote on this and that every member vote for it. 6263

May 15, 1974 Tape No. 1648 NM - 4 I also take advantage of this opportunity to emphasize chat we ought not to fall into the trap of thinking that the housing problem in Newfoundland is an urban problem. It is not. It is not only an urban problem. It is a problem that is affecting everybody in every part of Newfoundland who would want, wl,o needs to build a house at this time.

In Harbour Breton,for instance, to get a serviced lot with a fifty foot frontage,at this particular time in Harbour Breton can cost between S4,200 and $4,500, the Town of Harbour Breton,with a population of no more than 3,000 people, $4,500 for a fifty foot lot. That would have been unheard of even two, three, five years ago,in most part of this province. , 1 remember being in St.

John's ten or twelve years ago and hearinp a fellow tell me that he was going to pay $6,000 for a building lot here in St. .John's and I was at that time, ten years ap:o, completely appalled that a bit of lancl to put a house on should have to cost so much money. Now here we are, just eight or ten years later, with a community the size of Harbour ~reton, an individual living in that community has to pay out more than $4,000 before he starts at all. All he has then is the land. That does not include his relatpd costs, his survey costs.

The land obviously will be surveyed, but it does not include his other preliminary costs before he even actually begins to build a house. I do then, Mr. Speaker, want to point out and want to make a plea to the members of this House to bear in mind, and oarticularly to the government to bear in mind that the housing problem in this province is a provincewide problem, it is one that is effecting everybody who would want to build a house. I believe, as I have demonstrated with the information I have given the House a moment ago, I believe that the federal government has come to grips with this problem.

With its native and rural housing program~e, with its land assembly prograillne, with its assisted home-ownership programne, with these various programnes the federal government is addressing itself, is putting its money where its mouth is, is addressing itself to the housing problem 6264

May 15, 1974 Tape No. 1648 NM - 5 as it exists from one corner of this province to the other. I do hope that if this resolution pass , as I believe it shall, that the government shall take it seriously and shall immediately set about bringing in the kind of legislation which will not only provide a house for a house insofar as e:xpropriat~d private dwellings are concerned but in the larger context shall begin addressing itself to the overall problem of housing as it is affecting people in every corner of this province. MR. SPEAKER: If the honourable member speak . now he closes the debate. MR. WELLS: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I think before winding up my remarks on the principle of a house for a ~ouse and on matters of housing, I must refer to the remarks of the honourable member for Bell Island who has wished me so well and has issued me what I took to be an invitation of some sort to contest the leadership of the Li.beral Party whenever they are having it this vear. I have to assure him, so that he will - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. WELLS: No, there is no need. I think I should assure him now in fairness,so he or anybody else can make their plans, that I shall not be doinr that. ~~ I am disappointed.

MR.~~: Well there you are. But you see, Mr. Speaker, I happen to believe, and I did not know that we would get on to the subject of politics in a thing like housing, but I happen to believe that this party, the party of which I have been a member for a long time, is a party which has a great role to play, not only in Newfoundland but in Canada,and I believe that the best service one can do a party to which one belongs is not to be muzzled by it and not to be just a thing that sits there and takes orders from on high and swallows them and spits them our and regurgitates them in due course.

I think that the service one can do AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. WELLS: Sometimes I amuse him,no doubt. But I think that that is the greatest service one can do a party. That is the service I hope I will be able to do, and others like me, in the party that I am a member of. MR. 'WM. ROWE: Inaudible. 6265

l-(ay 15, 1974 Tape No. 1648 NM - 6 MR. WELLS: No one tries now.· So the honourable gentleman will have a clear run for the leadership of the Liberal Party, an absolutely clear run. I will watch with interest and I will be sitting home with television on,and I must say I look forward with some interest to that evening.

Insofar as th:1,s narty is concerned, my ho11e and expectation is that this oarty will continue to debate an introduce measures which will be good for the Province of Newfoundland and I hope.if· the voters agree to keen me here to do it, that I will have some say and be able to make some contribution in the future toward the development and thought in this party. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. ~-=-~ Who knows what is going to happen? >,ow do not say that too loudly. Yo'u know there is no leadership convention over here. The leadership convention is over there. But at any rate, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to thank the members who have spoken in support of this resolution. It is someth:lng that I think is worthwhile. I am glad to see also that the debate did not centre on the narrow business of the pure house for a house concept but dealt with housing in a rather broader way. There is no question about it and I think we are all aware that housing is one of the fundamental problems in Newfoundland, not only in the urban centres but in the rural areas.

J think there is one thing that behoves all of us as members of this House and as people in public life and that is to try and make these federal programmes come to Newfoundland, that is the only way I can put it. I read some of them last week; I do not propose to go through them again. I am thinking particularly of the neighbourhood improvement programme and the other programme, I forget the name of it, NIP, the one where you can borrow and be forgiven pa,rt of the princip'le that you borrow, neighbourhood improvement, MR. EARLE: I wonder if t~e honourable member for St.

John's South would tell the House why the programme known as NIP, Neighbourhood Improvment Programme,or the Home Ownership Programme rather, neither of these are 6266

May 15, 1974 Tape No. 1648 NM - 7 working as well as we would hope they would? Does he have any idea why they are not working? MR. WELLS: This is something that I find very curious and it baffles me. ---- When you read the federal programme you would get the impression that if you earned under $11,000 a year you would be able to go and borrow the money to do something to fix up your home.

Now what I cannot understand is why the various strings are attached to these programmes by the federal programme,and this is something which I cannot understand but it seems to permeate the whole field of federal-provincial relations, that the federal government co~es up with programmes which on the face of them,like this,are excellen~ but when the ordinary person says, ''Well all right I want to take advancage of that." he finds that there are so many "ifs'' "ands" "buts" and strings, so many ap.reements have to be concluded between the provinces, the federal government and the ~unicinal governments, that sometimes and very often I feel that the v~lue of the rroF,rm11r.1eare lost and the man cannot re11lly !';et to it.

If the federal government is F,oinr- to make money available for peopl~ to borrow to ffx up homes, why noc in the name of Cod just do it? ~ -· ~lE_::\RY; Well they do but it is just che minister's department MR. WELLS: No! No! It is not as simple as that. Do you mean to say that the minister is go:lno: to stand in the way of people tomorrow who want to borrow that $11,000? That is not so. That is not so. If the federal government really wanted to do this, without all these strings, they could go ahead and do j t.

But when you put all sorts of strings in.people get faint hearted after a while and they say; (Well what is the point.) "Why bother? 11 So this is somethinP, that I think every 111ember of this House ought to he concerned with. This is something that has to be pushed and it is something 6267

May 15, 1974 Tape 1649 IB-1 that I think that every member of this House ought to be concerned with. This is something that has to be pushed. If there be anything we can do as members to assist the department,to assist arrangements to be made for these programmes to apply to Newfoundland, then I think it certainly should be our duty and something that we ought to find out about and push for as hard as we can. Now, to come back again: My honourable friend from Bell I